The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: The Frisky Pelicans, CP3 Demons, Trae’s Struggles and Favorite Flip-Flop Guys With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

In Part 2 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Suns’ Game 4 loss to the Pelicans, how Devin Booker’s hamstring injury affects the Phoenix's playoff trajectory, some praise for the Pelicans roster, worrying about Zion Williamson, Grizzlies-Timberwolves, and other first round observations. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ringer Gambling Show. We will be hitting it hard. What a week coming up. If you missed part one of this podcast, it already happened a few hours ago. We covered the Celtics and the Nets and a whole bunch of other things. This is part two.

Me, Rusillo. Here we go. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, it's part two of the podcast. Russillo is here again. Thank God we waited. Suns Pelicans was extraordinary. In part one, I was a little bit of a KD apologist,

and now we bring in the premier CP3 apologist, Ryan Russillo. Yet another cheap shot foul by Chris Alvarado is just being a pest. You could see him at his snap, but that's not the story. The story, we have a real series. We have a series that if I'm a Suns fan, I am just in a fucking curled ball right now,

wondering what happened to my season, my guarantee. They were even to make the finals on FanDuel. And now I'm wondering if I can win two of three against a team that won 36 games this season. Not great, Bob. You know what's funny is watching this one play out at the end, though. I go, okay, you know, whatever. Like, this is not going their way.

And I was like, oh, yeah, it's 2-2. And then Big Cat started immediately texting me, like, how are you going to feel if Chris Paul blows it in a 1-8 matchup? Yeah. And, I mean, it was him definitely trying to turn the knife a little bit. Yeah.

And I was like, you know, I guess you didn't watch game one or game three. And then I was like, wait, could they lose? Could they lose to the Pelicans? I can't even process that happening despite how much respect I have for New Orleans. I'm ready to get there because of what happened basically

from the moment Booker left this series. Game three was close. Chris had to really reach back into the bag of tricks to even get that one going the way it needed to go for the Suns. In this game, I never felt like the Pelicans were going to lose halfway through the third quarter. Really? Come on.

I really did. So when Shamit's making those trail jumpers and they've got it to five with Chris Paul at the start of the fourth quarter, you're not going, oh, here we go again? No. I have a hard time believing that. I'm telling you. I was watching it going.

I was thinking about, should I lie bet the Suns? And then I was like, no, I'm not going to. I think the belt gets the girl to win this game. The Valanchunas-Ingram-McCollum threesome versus basically Chris Paul and a bunch of guys who can't create shots for themselves just became more and more appetizing as that game going. And then the stuff they were doing to Chris, where does Alvarado rank on the Patrick Beverly, Ken Linsman, agitator ranking ranking sphere is he moving up the ladder well i respect alvarado more than i do beverly i mean beverly pulls all this shit and then you'll be like oh

he went two for nine and took like two completely ill-advised three so beverly actually becomes overrated because of all the shit that he does and people always come to me being like oh why would you be like this against Beverly, but not so much Chris Paul? And I'm like, I don't know, maybe because he's 10 times a fucking player. That would be a good place to start. I like this.

You're salty after this. I am. I'm fucking heated. It's like three is a mirage. The game one masterpiece, a mirage. And it's just going to suck because if they lose this,

no one will care that Booker was out because, and by the way, they shouldn't lose the Pelican still with Booker out. But, you know, if you don't like Chris Paul, I mean, hell, ESPN used to put up like all his blown series. And I'd be like, you realize he's missing in half of these,

which again is part on him because he can't stay healthy all the time. But as I've said for years now, none of us ever change our minds. So if you don't like Chris Paul, you're ready to go. The foul on Herb Jones, though, Herb Jones knocked the shit out of him like five minutes prior. So you knew the retaliation was coming. And I'm not saying that as if Chris likes there's plenty of stuff that Chris Paul does during games that I

don't like. It's just that the rest of the other stuff is as perfect as it gets for a point guard. So there you go. Chris Paul, four points tonight. 11 assists. The Pelicans were using a version of the Celtics KD plan. They were just in his space.

They were invading his personal space over and over again. But the thing that shocked me, Ingram had 30 again, 11 for 23. McCollum, 8 for 21. I mean, he's probably had a little more trouble against these wings than maybe he expected. But they're still getting points from their dudes. Jonas said 26.

And then they have these role players that are popping up. I'm so happy Larry Dance finally found the right team. How many years did it take? 25 years before he finally moved into his offensive rebounder energy guy reality that he was looking at. I have an important question for you, though. I have two important questions. Suri wondered this. Do we owe David Griffin an apology?

I already did this segment last week. So what's your answer? On your podcast, I did it. But what's your answer? Do we officially owe him? Because I didn't apologize. Yes. Well, I didn't really kill him the way the rest of you guys did. The Stain Van Gundy hiring was terrible. Terrible.

The Alonzo, whatever the hell he did with that was pretty terrible. Right? Right. But I kept liking what the front office was doing. It was on your podcast where I said, we need to give the Pelicans, I said, all the David Griffin shit, which I understood. And the Zion part of it is overshadowed that the sprint office has done a terrific job and the McCollum trade. And it sucks that Zion, apparently, I don't know what the hell's going on now because I've heard a million different things all season long. Well, did you see him on the sidelines? Yeah, he looks huge. He looks huge. Somebody hugged him and they were wrapping their arms around him. And it was like the entirety of their arms going around him. Which brings me to my second question. Would you rather have Herb Jones or Zion going forward? You could have one or the other. You'd rather have Zion still.

This is insane. That's an insane question. Did you see Zion today? He looked like he weighed 320 pounds right but why is he gaining weight some guys bulk some guys come down i do love herb jones i i'm look around pick the fact that he was i mean to have herb jones and alvarado chasing you around you know that's like all this size the wingspan he's blocking these jumpers the two blocks he had what on what was it bridges in the right corner he looked like a long he looked like bob beeman jumping from the paint up in the air is like he went for the 29 foot record i don't know what happened i don't know where zion fits into what i'm watching in this series

i know he does because we know how incredible he was last year when he was in shape. But at the same time, there's gotta be, I would argue McCollum is probably a better fit with Ingram. That maybe Zion was instead of that dueling banjos, Zion trying to run the offense. And now it just seems like there's a natural fit with role players. What,

what Valanchunis brings to the table. And throwing Zion in that, I think would be a pretty weird fit. Now, if he was in shape, it would have mattered because he's great. But fat Zion? I don't know.

Fat Zion, I don't know what it's going to look like either. I don't. I don't know. I loved watching him last year. It was a lot of fun, but I don't think

it was a lot of fun for Brandon Ingram. And I think the great thing about CJ is that when you play with Dame as long as he did, you know you'll have your moments to initiate the offense, but a lot of times you're going to figure out how to fit in because you're playing with Dame. So I think CJ's at an age too,

where it's also right. You know, if you were 23 and worried about the next big contract and all that kind of stuff, those guys aren't as flexible from a basketball standpoint. And you can be a little bit later when you've made all your money and all that kind of stuff. The Zion part of it though, made me, and I know we're going to get into this a little bit later, but Brandon Ingram carried this team for stretches with just incredible plays.

Yeah. And you go, Oh wow, that's right. This guy can be awesome at times. And anybody that, you know, that watches knows that,

but I think Ingram probably got dinged up a little bit last year to your point because it probably, even though it worked offensively for Zion to be point Zion and nobody seemed to be able to do anything with it i don't know that it was a blast if you were ingram to go cool this is what i do now right i'm i'm over here 37 in game 2 34 in game 3 and uh 30 tonight and i thought he was the best player in the game. Now, it's a lot easier to load up on Chris Paul when Devin Booker isn't there and they're asking Landry Schammett,

who I think has been on six teams in the last four years, hey, can you do a Devin Booker impersonation for us? And the answer is no. So if you're just throwing guys, you have this young team, you have the home energy crowd, all that stuff. I wonder if it could be replicated in Phoenix because now Phoenix is, Phoenix is obviously a fantastic regular season team. Booker was a big part of it, but they're still a fantastic regular season team. And they've had a chance to look at

this New Orleans thing now, and they're going to have a chance to do some adjustments and stuff like that. I'm just not positive what're going to have a chance to do some adjustments and stuff like that. I'm just not positive what the adjustments are because Chris has to do so much offensively without Booker. I just don't like the Suns as much. I mean, it's not a hot take. I voted Booker fourth for MVP. You're going to feel it if you're taking him out.

I think it's much harder for them to create the same kind of offense. Well, today they shot 50.6%, 12 turnovers. It's the bench guys that come in, like Craig played 10 minutes, JaVale McGee 13, Payne 18, Sham at 20. Booker's usually what, 36, 37 minutes. And I don't know. They're really feeling it. It feels like they're a guy short now, like no pun intended. You're right. And when you think about it, like Crowder's an offensively dependent person, and I don't know that he's always comfortable taking shots. He's going to take more than seven tonight.

And it's not like he's getting the Durant-Boston treatment or something. Cam Johnson, who's been a really nice player for them, whether it was six-man looks this year, I think he finishes in the top three, but he's somebody that's still a little dependent. Torrey Craig, I'm not even going to get into it.

They weren't making threes today. There's seven for 27. The biggest thing, the free throws are alarming. Yeah, 15 free throws total. 15 total against New Orleans. So this is a game, and the Pelicans end up with 42 free throw attempts, and the Phoenix Suns end up with 15.

So I think a couple things also happen. So it's the free throw part of it. But did you watch this game and think it was one-sided officiating? Because I actually felt like the Pelicans were just attacking. No, I'm not blaming it on the refs. I just think that that kind of discrepancy, that's a huge, huge number.

It's not a good sign. Well, the rebounds too. The Pelicans had 48 rebounds. Suns had 39. And the Pelicans had 19 offensive rebounds. The other part of it too, and it's the Cameron Payne minutes where they have to use him at times because he can, in theory, create for himself a little bit more. But he, you can almost kind of tell, you're like, eh, probably not going to work tonight.

And, you know, credit to him turning his career around with very such in the last year in the playoffs and all that kind of stuff. But I thought the Jonas Valanciunas, going to Valanciunas to run your offense at the start of the fourth and posting up, and it all worked. It all worked. So Aiton and McGee, that combination. I mean, JaVale was terrific tonight for him in 13 minutes.

Didn't miss any of his seven shots. Aiton was great beating up on him. The advantage of the big man in the front line in game three. I'd expect to see something like that again in game five. I don't think they're going to take 27 less free throws in game five, and that's not blaming the officials. It's just the part of it. And I think Chris Paul is going to be pissed off for 48 straight hours.

The Chris I know. Come on, dude. Your guy, Chris. Don't worry. Don't you worry about us. Alvarado felt like he played 100 minutes in that game. He only played 18. It was a loud 18 minutes.

We talked about how Wiggins could be out there for an hour and I'm not even sure he's out there. Alvarado, you're just aware the entire time. He's just doing stuff. He's doing things. I love guys like that. There's a very playoff-y kind of feel to them. Even Devante Graham, who I'm not a huge fan of,

but at least when he feels kind of heat checky you know like you could see him making a couple threes in five minutes totally I mean you know he basically was like 17 minutes a game in April and then just kind of beyond that wasn't even a factor yeah but I mean I've seen him make big shots for the Hornets before you know like I've seen him at least I you know I don't think he's as good as Terry Rozier, but you understand the point. Like if he got you a couple, just like you said, I don't need to add to it.

If he got you a couple buckets in a big spot, it wouldn't shock you because he can create his own shot. What team do you think was watching tonight's game and was the most excited about it that wasn't in the game? Kuzma. Golden State? Kyle Kuzma, maybe. He's been tweeting a lot. game. Kuzma? Golden State? Kyle Kuzma, maybe?

He's been tweeting a lot. Well, Kuzma, yeah, he feels left out. I know Golden State's what you're looking for there. No, I don't know. If I'm the Celtics, that's another one where I'm like, man, now Phoenix is going to have to probably go seven just to get out of round one. This is like all looking up Celtics these days.

And then I think the other one is Dallas. Where Dallas is thinking, man, all right, we blew game four. But if we can just get through this Utah series, this Phoenix team we're watching that can barely get by New Orleans, it'd be pretty juicy. Do you like the play-in more or less because this is happening? They literally won, I think,

29 games less than the Suns. I'm not going to feel sorry for the Suns. If they blow this, I'm not going to go, well, the play-in. No, I can't. I won't do that. I wouldn't do that. So you're pro-play-in now? You love the play-in now. I can see it in your eyes. No, I don't like to play.

I think it's a ridiculous concept that a team can win as many games. The 7 seed will some years, and then there's going to be some shitty 31-win 10 seed. You know, like, all right, let's see if we make the playoffs now. Like, what was the point of the 80 games? But it doesn't mean I'm not entertained by it. It solved one of the tanking issues, which was the incentive for a team

if the first half of their season did not go the way they wanted, if they had some injury or whatever, that there was no incentive for them to try to salvage what was going on, which is what New Orleans did. So I guess I owe David Griffin an apology. You've already apologized.

I just said that they need... I don't even know owe David Griffin an apology. You've already apologized. I just said that they need... I don't even know if it's an apology. I think it's a recognition that through all the Zion bullshit, your right to stand higher was terrible. And then when J.J. Redick went off on Griffin, that added to it. The team culture stuff. Right. So all of a sudden, it's piling

on, it's piling on. And while all of that was happening and all of it was fair, criticism, the front office were putting together a really nice roster. And they seem to be hitting on a ton of these picks, whether it's Jones, whether it's Alvarado, who's not even a draft pick, or it's Murphy, who I think is going to be even more than he showed, but he's playing real minutes.

I still like Kyra Lewis, which I'll just keep saying over and over again. They did a great job of the CJ trade. The Valanciunas trade, to me, is a win. I know that Memphis looked at it as they wanted somebody who fit the Adams profile more to help Jaron Jackson, but Valanciunas is a better basketball player. No question.

I really value him, especially in a playoff series. I value big guys who can create a shot. And the coaching hire, by the way, after realizing how bad the stand was. Willie's been awesome, man. Personality, disposition, all that kind of stuff.

When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I was wrong about the CJ trade. I didn't think he still had this level in him. And I just didn't understand the point of what the hell are you paying $30 million a year for CJ McCollum when you have no chance to go anywhere? I think the hope was that

it would validate the franchise. Maybe they could get it in the playing game. Maybe they could make some noise and then maybe they could seem, get the crowd going a little bit again and try to appeal to Zion and make him think, all right, something's going on here. Not only did all that happen, it happened to the point that now, now we're looking at the Zion piece of this and being like, Hmm, where could you go? I was, I was, I actually have, I have some ideas for you, but let's, let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. So Zion, you're not as worried as I am about Zion with the multiple surgeries and the weight gain. Wait, wait, wait. Just because I took his future over Herb Jones' future?

You seem like you think he's going to be fine. Here's what I do. If you show me a sliver of greatness, I'm going to try to hang with you as long as I possibly can. Think of this as a junior version of my Anthony. What if you show a sliver of pizza? A sliver would be great. Maybe Zayad needs a sliver of pizza. It's kind of like the Anthony Davis thing. Every one of you guys thinks he sucks and he's going to suck for the rest of his career.

I would be like, all right, I'm not there yet. I'm just not. And maybe I'll be wrong, but I'm as patient with somebody that used to be great as I am resistant to anoint Herb Jones the building block over Zion at this point, which I think is fair. I thought you were going to say Bill Russell, and I was there for a second.

You said the Bill. I was like, Bill Russell? So building block, fair. Let's say the Pistons call and they say, we'll take Zion off your hands. For who? We can have our first pick. We'll give you Killian Hayes and Sadiq Bey, and we'll give you a pick swap down the road. Zion and Cade Cunningham, let's go.

You can get out of the Zion thing. You don't have to pay him the max and worry that he's going to play 30 games. You got your team. You can have one of the top four picks in this draft. You have all the other picks you have. You're really building something. Let's go. Yeah. No, I'd top four picks in this draft. You have all the other picks you have. You're really building something. Let's go.

Yeah. No, I'd probably do it with this draft. Which team? You do it if you're New Orleans. Yeah. Because I don't want to have to pay Zion. I can still hold that. Like, I'm not going to write him off.

It's different than me having to write him that check, too. I went through all the teams, and the Pistons were the one that made the most sense. Big enough city. Cade Cunningham's there. And Killian Hayes? Yeah, Killian's got to be in it. Sorry, KFC.

I was trying to figure out Zion to Atlanta. I see. I think you're onto something there with Atlanta. I think Atlanta, I would put them in the top three. What do they have?

They have a lot of pieces. A lot of pieces, but it's like a lot of nickels for a dollar. No, that's what I don't think it's Zion. Nothing close to the Detroit first round pick. Right? I mean, it's like, hey, here's the Nile. Oh, Gallinari might be in a, he might be a free agent. Here's John Collins.

What about Trey and Okonkwo for Zion? Who says no? Oh, you'd put Trey for Zion. Wow. I'm just kidding. It's been a tough series. I was thinking, yeah, we're going to get to Trey in a second.

I was thinking if there was an end game for the Hawks where it was Trey and Zion, that would be fun. That's a joke. That's a joke. You don't aggregate them. Right, yeah. I did not think that that would be something

somebody would seriously offer. Well, who's throwing in picks? Um, most fun guys to see annoyed during a basketball game. Remove your Chris Paul love from this. Chris has to be the number one, right?

Yeah. It's like watching somebody be, it's like watching your action hero in a bar being messed with by the by like the fucking hicks who don't realize that the guy's like a black belt it's like oh no this still sounds like a w for chris paul because i when i when i see him annoyed i'm like uh-oh uh-oh it didn't happen tonight i I mean, look, Pelicans deserve. I don't know how much more credit we can give them. You're seriously entertaining they can win this series.

And that crowd was awesome. God, I wish that crowd. I wish that city, I wish the basketball part of it, I just wish it were overall better. And I know there's Pelicans fans that were like, but try to do a straw poll of more than just you and your six buddies because it doesn't seem to be. I don't know. You know how much I love that city.

I just wish it were always like that for them all the time. And I can also understand the fan base being frustrated, too, over the years. But still, I've had a lot of reasons to get like that. I would say like when Stan Van Gundy is screaming at, you know, whoever. I don't know if people are. Did you hear Stan recently, like, sort of making fun of himself for how much he talks and then basically admitting that I can be a little grating on the players?

He said that? It was basically a roundabout way. Like, he was doing something sarcastic where he was saying, well, when I coached, you know, I was always relaxed and I didn't grate, always relaxed and I didn't get on the guys. It was very easy. So he's doing this self-deprecating thing. Yeah, he was making fun of himself,

which I thought was kind of funny because I do think that that was part of the problem in New Orleans. Most fun guys to see in New Orleans. CP3 is one for me. LeBron is number two because people so rarely go at him. It's exciting when they... he's got such status as the best player

of his generation you rarely see anyone try to fuck with him in any way and I like when Draymond gets riled up too always enjoyable it's like pro wrestling so these were like positives you like seeing the first it's just in general.

It's just captivating television. Anytime somebody's trying to rile these guys up, I'm like, I'm not fucking turning the channel in the next five minutes. Like when that Chris thing, when he got the eight seconds, I was like, oh my God, Chris is going to, he's absolutely going to decapitate somebody. And then like six minutes later he did. And then when Her Jones did the, don't help me up. I'll wait for one of my teammates. I was like, oh my God, Chris is like, he's going to be a maniac in the next game. I think Chris just pencil him in for what? 28 and

17 in game five. Like there's no way he's not going to be awesome in game five. He's going to do that like fast walk. He's going to gonna be great like his point total thing is usually not the story but i i thought the alvarado eight second thing was like it just doesn't happen and i just fumbled the ball constantly i love the eight second and it's been weird since they changed it from 10 to 8 seconds how many players love to milk it right to the end just to the end and you always smart does it constantly he's 17 seconds he's just like just going over between the eight second thing and then how often like when guys in transition will throw it backwards and they don't call it but oh and

the guy hasn't come over the line yet yeah that happens three times a game you're right throw it back to him and i just like when did it become cool to flirt with the danger of backcourt violations? It's crazy. What about the ball rolling and the guy not picking it up and trying to taunt the guy? With fucking 11 minutes to go in the quarter,

I blow my brains out on that one. That's why I want the G League thing to happen with the free throws. I want all jump balls to go to the... Well, I'd say in the half court, I want all jump balls to go to the defense.

Like, why should the offense get another chance of possession after you blocked their shot while they went up for it, but want all jump balls to go to the defense. Like, why should the offense get another chance of possession after you blocked their shot while they went up for it, but it wasn't blocked to open. It was blocked to where, you know, somebody could retain possession of it.

All right. That ran. I would also like to get rid of announcers screaming, pay this man his money. Give him the bag. Every time it's like a free agent who makes a play.

It's, it's just kind of hacky. Let's just scale it back on that. No? You like it? No, I'm not saying I like it. DeAndre made a bank shot today and Reggie Moore was like,

pay that guy's money! It's like, DeAndre's going to be fine. He's going to make $110 million. I have a bigger issue with all the former players not being able to see what was done intentionally. I want the former players to go, that was a flop. He's doing it.

When Jay Crowder is landing forward to take those jumpers, Reggie Miller should know that that's Jay Crowder. Jay Crowder is taking that shot, hoping to land. God, I swear to God, if I could go back in time and change anything, I would tell Zaza Pachulia,

I'm like, whatever you do in the lower left corner don't close out on Kawhi please don't right because we're going to spend decades reviewing these fucking calls and then the shooter benefits from it more than ever before because you can actually always

land forward so I wish Zaza had never done that is there a Zion and Dame something anything always land forward. So I wish I had never done that. Is there a Zion and Dame something? Anything? Portland's got to throw a little more, maybe? No. What's Portland got besides the pick?

I don't know. Pick swaps? What's the... How many of these Zion things did you do? Do we have a massive landing spots? After seeing him on the sideline today, nobody's going to be like, cool, here are all our assets for that guy. Somebody would.

I'd need him slimmer. Okay. But what if they win? What if they win? Do we get to like... What if they win this round? Right. And then we get to do a Ben Simmons

and we'll be like, hey, updated Zion watch. If Phoenix loses this series this I'm gonna go I'm gonna this ago honestly this would go on the shortlist historically this would be Matumbo holding the ball up in the air after the Seattle series this would be the fucking we believe warriors it's gonna be so

much worse because it's Chris Paul it's worse than those two do you think people would hang this on Chris Paul though? I don't. Yes, because that's the point. He was in the league in 2005. If you don't like him, you're not going to go, hey, you know what though? To be fair, nobody does that. None of us are fucking fair when we're trying to make points against people. Yeah, I don't know that Booker was the best player this Yeah, I don't know. That Booker was their best player this season. I don't know.

I think that would have a pretty big asterisk. They would just talk more about bad luck for Chris Paul, which he's had some bad luck. I don't think they would. I don't think they would. He's had incredibly bad luck. But if that's not the angle for somebody, then I wouldn't care what they were saying

because I'm sure they don't follow basketball. I'd either retire or I'll just make up pamphlets pointing out all the bad luck and just he's had some really bad luck. The 2014 OKC series is the worst one for him where it wasn't bad luck. He just played badly.

But other than that, he's had a lot of bad luck. Brandon Ingram who I think both of us are unexpectedly pro Brandon Ingram who I think both of us are unexpectedly pro Brandon Ingram not a place I've been often the last

six years I've been more kind of not on the Brandon Ingram side more of the I'm glad somebody else is overvaluing him I'm glad he's not on my team. I've been on that side. I don't value what he does as much as others do. So I don't think he's a winning player.

I come back to all I care when I evaluate guys, are you a winning player? With him, it's like, what position is he? He's all offense. Can he make guys better? Is he like, do you need like a shop walker next to him? What is he? And he really hasn't been successful

from a winning standpoint, but he's been awesome this season and he's been awesome in the playoffs. And he's going to get to a team that has really, really, really elite defensive wings. And it doesn't matter. He's scoring on him. He's going to get seen as a shop locker.

He's going in the paint and challenging that guy. So you, you texted me and you called me about this. And we were thinking, are there just guys that you're never going to be settled this is your question are there guys you're just never going to be a hundred percent

one way or the other it's always going to be this amorphous flip flop so we're calling them permanent flip flop guys is Ingram a permanent flip flop guy for you because right now it feels really good and he was great again by traditional stats although he didn't shoot it great he's like 36 from three been terrific the previous two years

32 this year but you know he's 24 six and six the playmaking's always been there and even going back to duke like it's just it's kind of like a bigger shamit face derrick white body theory where you see we're so visual that you look at inggram and you go well there's no way this guy has some of that fuck you in his game and it's like you know he actually does even going back to Duke one of the things I love about him is he drove to the rim and took contact and was like I'll keep doing it and there have been times where maybe we push back on the Ingram part of it because there was a flirtation there for a little while especially was on the Lakers like who would you rather have down the road Tatum and Ingram and for the because there was a flirtation there for a little while, especially it was on the Lakers. Like, who would you rather have

down the road, Tatum and Ingram? And for the longest time, I was like, come on. And then Ingram, when he got to the Pelicans, you're like, whoa, look at these numbers that he's putting up.

Made the all-star team. Right. But then they were still losing a lot of games. So, you know, it's tough because there are players who I do think put up big numbers on bad teams

who I'm like, I like that guy. And there are other guys that put up big numbers on bad teams. And I go, that guy, five other people could be doing what he's doing, if not more. So with Ingram, seeing probably the ceiling of some of his offensive skills, that drive and then pass to a trailer tonight, like some of the shit that he does, you'll just be reminded going,

God, when this guy's right, it's a lot of fun. But I'd also be willing to admit that there'll probably be a stretch that I don't love it all the time. So I'm never quite sure where I'm at. I think the best analogy for this is outside of the top five or six quarterbacks in the NFL, that next 10 to 15, however strongly you feel one way or the other, just give it a week because you're going to be right either way. Yeah, I'm trying to think who's the perfect quarterback for that analogy. Kirk Cousins? Well, Ingram, since he showed up in New Orleans,

he's 23, 6, and 5. 46% field goal and 37% three-point. And this is pretty consistent. Like, you look at his

basketball reference, it's kind of who he is. And he might actually have a chance, maybe he could be a 27-point guy next year. Who knows? Maybe he'll make a leap

coming off these playoffs. But, yeah, I'm not, I'm never going to be 100%. Yes. Yeah. But as a permanent flip-flop guy, I think he's one of my favorites. I think Trey's another one.

I think we did a lot of apologizing. You've apparently apologized to David Griffin twice on the podcast. I've apologized once. Last year, we did a lot of apologizing for Trey Young because we were pretty adamant that what this guy does, it's not winning player stuff. Then the playoffs, all of a sudden, they started winning games. Now he's reverted back to the Trey Young you and I weren't fans of

before last year's playoffs. So I feel like I'm starting to flip the other way again. Yeah, I'll just be straight with everybody. Even when I was like, man, I'm so impressed with this guy. Deep down, there was still some thing in the back of my head going, don't give in. Don't give in. Don't give in to these people.

Fight it. Fight it for Lugger. Because you know how you really feel. And the thing that I give Trey a ton of credit for was in that playoff series against the Sixers, he was the least afraid. And that's something that I love in players. Fearlessness.

And he was the least afraid. And you're like, if I'm talking to myself in my own little inner dialogue here at the couch, I'm going, no, these are the things you'd like. So you have to like this now. And then you were like, but I don't like 29 footers with 18 seconds left in the shot clock down eight with three minutes left. You're not a fan of that.

No, we've done the trade timeline a million times, but I think this year's really alarming. I think it's really alarming that what if last year was kind of fluky, where it was great that his attitude was out there on fire a disastrous sixer situation a knicks team that stunk really that was a complete overachiever made the playoffs and then you watch that series play out you're like how is this this isn't even close and then you know they they got even and then he even got hurt he's been terrible against miami i know he hit the game winner in game three uh i know he hit his knee today too but he's no he's he's actually been like legitimately terrible for somebody i voted for a third team olympia i voted for him too because

but then again you're like wait this guy's fighting with this team it's a deep good basketball team and i'm telling you there are still little little hints thrown in in different broadcasts where even vince carter one of the home broadcasts was like, you know, one of the things Trey needs to do. And you're like, yeah, I know exactly what he needs to do. And you can absolutely destroy him by getting him in all the defensive actions. So for all the love of like what Trey could be and all the absurd numbers, him being owned by Miami in this, and maybe, you know, he fell off again today because of the knee thing, but he stayed in the game. But if he didn't get the free throws he fucking gets man he didn't he had one free throw

attempt today i mean he's he's officiated like he's jordan 15 years in and i'll admit yeah like i'm kind of like leaning back towards the all the things i had an issue with going you can't always do it all on your own the 30 points are awesome but you can't always do it all on your own. The 30 points are awesome, but you can't always do it all on your own. And then when you're such a liability defensively, it has me asking the questions I was asking about before the playoff. Like, as I reassess everything, I'm going,

can you really have this guy be like the number one dude for a team that can be a real threat in the playoffs? Cause that's a good basketball team. That's deep. And I know the Collins part of it. And now with Capella, I'm sorry, Miami's good.

This isn't some 65 win juggernaut. Gabe Vincent played like 30 minutes today. I'm with you. I think the thing that's frustrated me about Trey because he's been in the league now, what, four years? He just plays

his certain way and that's it, right? There's no plan B where he thinks to himself, either my shots not falling the way it normally does or this isn't the right team for me to do my stuff against. Miami's a really hard matchup for him, especially when Bam can pop out.

You don't see him be like, all right, I'm going to show everybody this side instead. He's just the way he is for better and worse. And this is a series where if he's going to do that, they're going to lose to Miami and they're going to. Yeah. I mean,

this, this thing actually should be over now. They blew a 14 point lead and the other game that they won and Trey wasn't good in that game. And then he hits the game winner. So then you're like, all right, now,

you know, it's just the way things work, especially on social media. And then it's just ice tray posts. And this guy's born for the playoffs and all this stuff. And you're like, he's stuck. He sucked tonight. you're like kind of not so it's the same as the torrent thing like these are the rules and you can't go actually trade like this is a problem and i think

it is a long-term problem so i'm back to that again and i'm just admitting it so i'm glad you came clean get some my name is my name is Ryan I'm part of permanent flip flop anonymous listen let's if we want to

dig really deep and piss people off and I don't want to piss people off but we're just talking like two basketball fans they beat that Knicks team in five

last year that just turned out to be hot garbage this year and then that Philly team where Simmons is having a meltdown

as the series is going along and has not played basketball, has not played one minute of basketball since. And then they go to the next round, Giannis gets hurt. And then Milwaukee finally sends him packing. But I think, I don't know how long you can dine on that

2021 Eastern Conference run. You know? You can dine on that 2020 when Eastern Conference run. You know? You can dine on it this year. You did it. I thought he had a really good regular season statistically. I thought he was the sixth best guard in the league. And I put him on my third team all NBA. But he's been shockingly bad in this Miami series.

Shockingly bad. He has. And you can have a bad series, but the other guys that were more willing to give a pass have probably had other moments that are peaking. And right now, we're looking back on this, like the Portland Western Conference Finals appearance a couple years ago where you go.

That's kind of a nice run, but are you going to be that team for a while? Can I ask you a question about another person? Well, can we take a break? No. Let's take a break. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit, more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days and

the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. Coming back, you were going to ask me about a permanent flip-flop guy. Let's hear it.

No, it's an insert into the permanent flip-flop. let's hear it so it's like a magazine insert april 24th 2022 was that the day social media just checked out on still having sympathy for ben simmons mental health there's no question it was just unanimous today. Everybody's like, we're done. I think it was the three or four straight weeks of coordinated Ben Simmons' targeting, so-and-so game, so-and-so date, the updates. He played two-on-two today. He posted up a chair today. He played a little four on four.

Scoop B coming in with a, he's carrying himself like Jordan tweet. Just all of a sudden, I think people just had it. This is Jordan Rogers. I think people just had it. And I was on the record this entire time saying that we,

I didn't think we would see him. I thought it was too big of a spot. I really doubted that he would be recovered from a herniated disc and no physical contact to playing in the game that I went to, game one. I just didn't see it. I didn't think it was going to happen. Nash

for the last 72 hours seemed openly annoyed by it. Didn't want to talk about it. Didn't want to provide details. And you could tell he thought the whole thing was bullshit. I got to give you credit. You were very on this. You kept saying,

you kept hinting at it. You're like, I don't think this, I don't know if it was, it was the Intel highway over there. But you, despite the updates every day, you would be texting going, yeah, I actually don't think he's going to play. Because the code words are code words.

Targeting to me, I said this last week, targeting means nothing. It's a fake word. What does targeting mean? Well, it means something if there's still some credibility with your story. Yes. For Simmons, it's just very little credibility. We saw that today. I have a couple other things I've been workshopping.

You don't want to do more permanent football, guys? Is this another magazine insert? Yeah, it's a big one. Oh, great. It's a big one. Great. It's like variety. Let's go.

A lot of page. I've been thinking about this for a while. The more absurd outfit you wear to the tunnel, the less I might trust you in big spots. There are outliers, obviously, but it's something I've been thinking about more and more. I think we need somebody to really deep dive, but then we'd have to all judge something that's

pretty subjective on what is actually too loud of an outfit. So trying too hard is just the turn off to you? Yeah. Where I'm like, your fourth quarter PER is going to be low tonight. Again, PER in eight minutes maybe not the best way to do any of this math

and PER obviously has its flaws. But it's just something I've been workshopping, need to keep on that. I like it. That should be on Basketball Reference. But then to get guys more motivated to come back to play, they'll say, okay, you're sitting out this game. So yes, Cuban links, $200,000 chain, no problem.

You could wear Travis Scott Lowe's cool, you know, whatever jeans you want to go with, you know, St. Laurent, anything. But if you miss each game, you miss consecutively. Like at the end, we need you in Lee jeans and La Tigra.

No, you have to dress like Kawhi by like the seventh. Kawhi's my favorite. Kawhi's just like, oh shit, our game's at 730. Let me grab a sweatshirt. He's the best dresser out of all of them. He's at the pro shop with a King's hoodie. He's trying to impress.

He's like, why are you wearing a Dowdy jersey? He's like, who? He accidentally wore Richard's jersey. Didn't realize he was still not on the team anymore um yeah i i'm i think that's a good workshop for you that's i think what silver should do is we're not worried about load management we're not worried about the dnps but just so you know every consecutive dnp you can't wear, like if you're wearing lamb Prada, green lamb Prada, you can't come back the next day with all sorts of, like you can't be wearing off-white. Like you have to go a tier below this, maybe the monogram banana Republic. And then after that, it's another tier. Well, when did they relax the rules? Cause there was a stretch there where everybody had to wear

suits. And I don't remember, I don't know whether the bubble just changed everything. But I like it. I like the variety now. I think it's much more exciting. Yeah, that was just obviously we both know it was a Stern thing. That was post-Maslin Palace. Yeah, but then I think by the bubble, something flipped. Do you have any more magazine inserts?

No. Back to you. I had a couple more permanent flip-flop guys. Yeah, no. Carl Anthony Towns, go. So, I didn't have him on my list because I think I'm just flopped on him. To all the way good?

I don't see a flip anymore. I tried a flip in December. I gave it a couple weeks. Even went down the road on a couple Celtic fan texts of what happens if we have to break up the Jays down the road. Who do we get? Towns was maybe mentioned in a couple of fake trades, but the flip just didn't suit me. And I think I'm on the flop side with him.

I just think that's our destiny together. And it's always supportive or lack of support? No lack of support. I'm just not a believer. I just can't. I can't buy in. The dumb fouls, I just think that you are who you are in year seven, and he just can't help himself. And if he's in, this series goes seven, I know what's going to happen. It's going to be in Memphis.

He's going to get three fouls about eight minutes into the game. Two of them are going to be absolutely stupid. And he's going to be yelling and doing his whole thing. And he's going to suck in game seven, unfortunately. That's why I'm on the flop side with him. I would love it if he surprised me because we need more good basketball players. Yeah, because I mean, the numbers he put up this year and this team now is a real threat. He was awesome in game four. He was a man's man in that game.

And he was so bad in game three that I'll admit the doubt started happening again for me being like, wait, do you like this guy? So you're on the flip side. I don't know what to do with him. I don't know what to do with him. And a lot of this, too, is remember, if we start naming you as an all nba player which i did with towns like you we both had them 13 then there's a kind of expectation it's not that you can't have bad games every one of these guys are going to have bad games and it kind of gets back to the point of like how much we should appreciate lebron because like his worst game is still pretty good

uh you miss lebron I can hear in your voice. I do. I do miss him a little bit. But with Towns, you know what I think it is with Towns, and it's probably unfair. Maybe this all gets back to kind of the visual part of it. When it's going bad for him, it's just so demonstrative, and he's just so upset the whole game. It's like Cousins.

It has the same kind of negative poisonous energy that Cousins has. Yeah. I mean, Cousins is the worst I've ever seen. I've never seen anybody mentally be fucked in a quicker amount of time than DeMarcus Cousins. It's a superpower that he has. I've never seen anything like it.

He still kind of has it. I know he still has it. But Towns has like a, it's not as bad as Cousins, but there's a pinch of it in there so that when it's going bad, but then again, all right, game three, he says everything he wants to say because he's basically pissed that his team didn't get him involved. I mean, you

go 40-16 to close out a game, and they came back and won game four, and he was great in game four. I thought the Minnesota or like a really weak team, maybe get smashed in game four. And I know the officiating in game four, probably, I don't know if we're going to talk about it or not,

the fouling were Bain, Jackson, and Brooks all had like five fouls with I think seven minutes to go. Like, it was ridiculous. I had a very short Timberwolves game four segment. Just how horrified I was by the officiating. Do you want to do it?

I just thought it was just a bummer because I was excited for that game. 35 to 20, 33 to 23 fouls, 40 to 25 free throws. As you said, every important Grizzlies seemed like they had four or five or six fouls. And everybody on the Grizzlies afterwards said something about it, which is pretty rare.

Usually they're like, hey, coach, you take this. In this case, it was like everybody was like, those guys were terrible. I don't know what was happening. And I didn't think it was a fun game to watch. It was a one-point game that I didn't enjoy because I thought it was so disjointed. We've had some bad officiated games in the playoffs.

That was just over officiated at some point. And I mean, we had what, 18 fouls called in the first quarter of one of the Nets Celtics games. It was a record. And then Memphis, Minnesota

broke it. I think two days later with 20 fouls. Yeah. So part of it is, you know, guys could not foul. But I think the Memphis one where Taylor Jenkins had said it's arrogant, he called them arrogant twice, which is a very unique way to criticize them.

I think it might have been that play with Bain where Bain drove. They called for a charge. It wasn't a charge. They reviewed it. They got it overturned. And then Bain came down again after D'Angelo Russell had gotten a foul. And bane kind of did the ward off with the arm and they called him for it which by the way i wish that off-arm shit was called all the time well chris paul would have fouled that 10 different times today if you're following that he was doing the duck the shoulder thing

is bane do you think bane is the second best grizzly? I do. I do too. Because that brings us to another permanent flip-flop guy who has not made the list yet, but he's in the waiting room. I'm staring at him. Jaron Jackson, who I voted first team on defense. I voted for him, I think, third for defensive player of the year. The rub on him and the reason I didn't want to vote him for defensive player of the year was he can't stay in the fucking court because

he gets in foul trouble every other game. This series, 23.8 minutes a game, 20 fouls in four games. He's averaging 10 and six, shooting 39%. Hey, Jaren, the playoff started. Stay in the fucking court. I know the refs were bad in game four, not his fault, but he's got to figure out some sort of balance between being a dominant defensive player and actually just

playing 30 minutes because they really, when he's out there and he's playing well, they're kind of, I don't want to say unbeatable, but they're pretty hard to play, especially when you go to round two, round three, if they get there. And when he's in foul trouble, they're a different team. Yeah, this series in a trouble, they're a different team.

Yeah, this series in a weird way. I think New Orleans coming back and tying this thing against Phoenix and us allowing ourselves to be like, where do you think this one's going? Can you imagine? Yeah. But the Memphis, Minnesota part of this, part of it's just me being really thrilled about Minnesota having this toughness in them that I don't know that any of us knew

the answer to that question after you have. I mean, game three was as bad a playoff result as you can have. It was horrible. Wiles and I came on that night and we were just, I thought the series was over. I didn't think they would, I didn't see them coming back from it. But the lesson as always is, does it even matter when you blow a big lead in the NBA anymore? It's so easy to just blow a 20-point lead. Maybe we overrate it. It's not like it was in like if this happened in 1993, where you're like, oh my God, how are they going to recover now?

Just play the next game. He hits some shots. It's fine. Yeah, I think the jaw part of it has been a little disjointed, depending on how he's always going to get his points. He's going to get the assists. He has the ball in his hands a lot. I think he's exploitable on defense. And I think back to your Jackson point,

this is a guy that makes a lot of money. I voted for all the defensive stuff as well. And there are long stretches where you're like, other than maybe an open three every now and then, there's not a lot there when it isn't going right. But luckily, they do have all the staff. They've abandoned the Adams part of this, which has helped them turn it around since game one.

Thank God they did it quickly. This is an awesome series that's also tough to watch at the same time. It's weird. It's a very weird series. I would say it's extremely disjointed. I think Memphis wins it. I'm not concerned about that.

I actually think it's more likely that New Orleans has a better chance against Phoenix without Booker than Minnesota does to win a game seven. I mean, the Russell piece of this, he's had one good game out of four. Or maybe like half a good game out of four. And I just don't see them competing if he's just not going to show up in the series.

Now maybe Memphis is doing stuff to take him out too. I have two more flip-flop guys. LaMelo Ball, I've already changed my mind on four times. And his coach just got fired. Partly because I don't know. LaMelo,

I didn't see him play defense in the first two years of his career. I feel like that should matter. The team rolled over in the playing game. I feel like that has to at least a little bit take the personality of your best players. I thought Borrego did some good stuff. I don't think, I know you like him.

I know he's been on the podcast. Without Hayward, that team just was pretty stagnant for the most part. And I don't know if a new coach is changing the, we only look like a real offense when Hayward plays. And now that, you know, Hayward is probably the most likely Laker target if they can get rid of Westbrook. I think that's like conceivable that there's a Hayward, Westbrook, one more contract and Charlotte gets a pick back and they just try to reboot it. Right. Give the money to Bridges. They don't have to go into luxury tax. But back to LaMelo, I didn't love how the season ended for them

and for him. LaMelo one I think is a good one. Because if you go back to last year, he was seventh and fourth quarter minutes his rookie year and you could tell Borrego just didn't trust him at all. And then you're like, well, he probably got fired because of this. Because most coaches probably would have just said, whatever. You know, we picked this kid.

He's going to win rookie of the year. We're going to have him out there. But Borrego was not afraid to still be hard on his guys. And the fact that they were competitive over the years, they haven't had a setter since Dwight. Hayward missed, I think he played 93 games the last two years, and that's your max guy. Gee, who could have predicted an only occasionally healthy Hayward?

And apparently, I had it when Hayward was upset and wanted out of Boston. I've heard rumblings that he would maybe like to go somewhere else. So, you know, he got the big money deal, and we'll see what happens there. And that's why these kinds of things, like I never rule out any of the Westbrook stuff,

unlikely. Is he somebody in demand? No, but I don't think it's impossible. Because LaMelo is so young and it's only two years in, but I would kind of put him in that, hey, for us to continue to be as excited about you, there's going to have to be some other parts of your game that round out a bit

because the special stuff is a lot of fun with him. And I do think he's somebody offensively that is fun to play with. I actually don't think he forces the issue on his own. And the absurdity of his career, I mean, you see how he finished the season shooting. The guy was on fire.

And it's unbelievable to me that he's this good of a shooter already. But we'll see. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens to the next coach. Because I think the front office there, they thought this team was going to be better. And I personally think, and maybe I'm biased because I've had Borrego on. I think he's a really good coach because I think he's a good coach.

It's pretty simple. If I thought he sucked as a coach, I wouldn't have him on and go, hey, I love this guy who sucks. I thought it was as a coach, I wouldn't have him on and go, Hey, I love this guy who sucks. Uh, I thought it was a weird team. Yeah. And I think I went from thinking Westbrook was untradeable to wondering if they could maybe stick him on Charlotte and get Hayward and Plumlee and throw Charlotte a 2027 first. I'm over,

I'm just over assuming because the guy has a bad deal that can't get done because I think you brought up a point on one of our texts too is that maybe they maybe they do that deal and then they feel like okay they have this piece to move you know to say 47 million expiring is really enticing to some other team it means you're just gonna be taking on contracts they turn at least one first in there right I I would never underestimate the clutch part of it which is the same as any powerful agency I just feel like this league has more things that happen in the gray areas a lot of us never find out about

until years later where it's like hey do do us a solid you know we know as it's happening right um my last flip up guy I'm just he's entered the chat I haven't I haven't I've always been on the flip side of him, but

I'm starting... Mitchell is... I'm starting to get there with Mitchell. He's starting to be in there for me. I just want him to get better, and I want him to be more of a two-way player than he is. Maybe this is just who he is, but I

asked Waz... I asked Waz on Thursday night if Mitchell was just C.J. McCollum with better PR. And it's worth thinking about. Their stats are pretty similar. Not sure one is better defensive than the other. I think we think that Mitchell is like in this Booker, Trey, Tatum kind of group of up-and-comers.

And he's had some playoff success. But I don't like that Dallas's guards were just doing whatever they wanted. And he doesn't seem like he's a factor at all on that end of the floor. And I think that should matter. So I'm not willing to make him a permanent flip-flop guy yet, but I have my eye on him. Well, it hasn't been good at all. Even though he's still averaging 30 for them.

But I know that's not really what the segment is about. That seven-game series two years ago against Denver, I mean, the guy was averaging 36 a game. It was awesome. So I think he just needs to be with a better point guard that's going to bail him out of some of the tougher possessions. He'll force the issue. The Booker thing I've always kind of pushed back on because I just thought Mitchell was a little bit more dynamic

and the fact that Booker hadn't done anything until Chris Paul got there. But now Booker, at least the trust level with his decision-making is far greater than the trust level that I have with Mitchell in some of the tougher spots. But Booker's a way better defensive player. Yeah, defensively too.

And I don't know where Mitchell, like what happened to the pride? Is this season, has this whole thing been so disappointing that you're just going to let fucking guys dribble past you for an entire fourth quarter? That was gross.

It's embarrassing. Yeah, gross is a good word. Emeritus guys. Westbrook. Yeah, gross is a good word. Emeritus guys. Westbrook. You really love this segment. I do. Westbrook and Kevin Love are my two favorites

from the last 12 years. Yeah, but these aren't flip-flops for you anymore, right? Well, no. They're near the end of their careers. I changed my mind on Kevin Love at least 17 times. When's the last time you were pro Westbrook?

God, he was my favorite guy in the 2008 draft as a sleeper. I defended him really all the way through, through 2014. 2016 was when the worm turned for us. I thought he was just bad in that Warriors series. And it got to the point where I was like, if KD leaves, I understand. But for a while, I was like,

I just, I wrote the 90-10 column about Westbrook, about how everybody has that 10%. And like, I just was, I just liked how hard he played, but eventually it turned. That's a good one though, because I remember remember the 90 10 and it was really good and I think I even cited a few times and eventually I feel like the 10 was

outweighing the 90 it became like a 70 70 30 type thing let's take one more break and then a couple more things. All right, just some small house cleaning stuff and then we'll go because we did an hour plus before.

Stephen A, I feel like this is the most crucial he's ever been in this polarized, weird, sensitive basketball world. We're in Stephen A is the only guy who could just come out and crush people. And it's okay. I just, I missed that era of it just this weekend. He crushed Kyrie Harden at Simmons. And I was like, yeah, you tell him Stephen A. I wasn't normally a fan of that kind of media stuff

but sometimes you need that one person who's just willing to be like fuck it I'll take the heat I'll say it I'll say what everybody else is thinking I used to try to be that person I'm older now I think Stephen A is still he likes to swim in those waters and I respect that you know you're going to get

major blowback from it but the stuff he said about Kyrie I enjoyed the Simmons thing probably went too far when he was just calling him a complete you're going to get major blowback from it. But the stuff he said about Kyrie, I enjoyed. The Simmons thing probably went too far when he was just calling him a complete quitter. But nobody dabbles in those spaces. That also really loves... I genuinely think he loves basketball.

So when he does this stuff, I feel like it's obviously part schtick, but I also feel like it does come from a place of a love of the sport. i just wanted to say uh i've enjoyed his place this year is that by the way is that a weird one no not at all because he also went after katie a little bit too but that was more on like his status in the game it wasn't as harsh it was the other guys he did i know that it's it's felt like on social media now for years where there's this pivot of protecting the player,

which seems absurd too, because there's so much negativity out there, but it seems like a better deal for the media members, the relationship to always kind of default, at least on Twitter. Yes. To protecting. And,

you know, there's some stuff that I protect your sources, protect your people, the whole thing. Yeah. And I, you know, some of the Ben Simmons debate,

like I saw something about like, you know, he, this is so serious. He's willing to cost himself all this money. And you're like, do you not realize like the rest of us that he's going to appeal this? Yeah. That he's going to try to, he's going to file a grievance. Like this is going to happen. And so it's not really about that because he thinks he might have a chance of getting

his money back. So that's, I mean, I don't know if he's going to get it back or not. I, uh, I'm with you because it's, it's. So that's, I mean, I don't know if he's going to get it back or not. I'm with you because it's three players that have given, I mean, shit, man. I mean, we've killed them on this podcast, but I think going on TV, there's just a different spotlight and impact when you're on everybody's television and you're saying this stuff that everyone's talking about, either behind closed doors or on places like this. I just get to the point, too, where you'd be like, what's their, like, what would the, what's the defense other than this guy's on my team and I hope it works out.

Right. Philosophical question. When's the next time a franchise will just turn over the next five years of their destiny to a star that they want to have. That they're just going to be like, it's all you, man. You want to fire our coach? Awesome. You like DeAndre Jordan more than Jared Allen? Yeah, all right. We'll get rid of Jared Allen.

You want James Harden? We'll give it. You vouch for this guy? Cool. All right. Here's all our picks and assets. Wait, now you don't like James Harden? All right, we'll figure it. Ben Simmons, is he cool? I feel like this might be the last one of these for at least a couple

years because the big market teams are the ones that have the most desperation with this stuff. The Lakers aren't doing this again. I don't think the Nets are doing this again. The Knicks are pretty adamant about trying

not to do this. They've been trying to do it, though, for years and no one will go there. Right. Nobody will go there, but now they're trying to build from the ground up because nobody will go there. And then the Clippers, they can't do it because they have no picks for the next hundred years, so they're out. The Warriors aren't going to do it.

All the homegrown teams, Celtics, Bucs, all those teams, Warriors aren't going to do it. All the homegrown teams, Celtics, Bucs, all those teams, they don't need to do it. I think the Nets might be the last one. This might be the last one of these for a while, for a couple years. It's great. It's an awesome topic. You could go deeper in this, because if you present it

that way, you present just the Nets timeline and go, this isn't great. Think think about what the clippers have gotten out of their deal and all those picks that are going to come do later on by the way that starts this this draft yeah it's i mean i just had an okc fan he was like what are our clips that i had a document where i had all of it written down and i sent it to him and he was like my god it just keeps going and going it's like like, yeah, there's picks. It's going to like 2026. You're getting

Clipper picks. I've always thought the correction will come on the picks, but I would tell you I completely disagree on the idea. It's not going to happen again because of how bad it's gone because if you were still presented with the option of like,

hey, do you want two of these players that are awesome? Or, oh, what's your other thing? You're not going to take them? You're going to give it a shot in the draft and see where you're at in five years where I'm basically telling, like the Nets thing went bad. The Clippers thing went bad. I get it.

But I think the next big market team that'll have a chance to cater to two stars, they're going to do it. Because that's what this league is. I just don't think that situation happens for three to four more years. So there's going to be a lull of the super team thing. And there's going to be a move now

where it's like, we want to emulate these homegrown teams. The Bostons. The Milwaukees. Think about what you're saying. First of all, where it's like, we want to emulate these homegrown teams. The Bostons, the Milwaukees. Okay, but think about what you're saying. First of all, Milwaukee's debatable homegrown, by the way. No, it's not. They made the holiday trade.

Middleton and Drew? So, Middleton, I mean, technically drafted by Detroit, but he was like a second-round pick and a G League guy. I mean, he's really a Milwaukee guy. Okay. All right. Fine. Fine. Whatever.

That's not the point of this. The point of the argument is even though you make a great point and I can't give you a specific answer to say, no, no, this is going to be the team that does it. I just don't understand why the next GM will say, hey, you can try with draft picks, which you have no certainty. You don't even know you're getting because you don't want to cater to the superstar or you have a chance for these two players that both want to play here

and you're immediately relevant and have a chance at this. I still think people are going to do it. I think if it's the right two players, I think what's going to be less likely is like what happened with the Nets where you try to talk yourself into these expensive superstars that come with some warts and some baggage. That might be the thing.

And maybe Philly is the last version of this, where Philly, and I know it was a Daryl Morey kryptonite thing with Harden, he just loves the guy. But even that trade, man. Have you ever talked to Daryl about Harden, like where you go, hey, what do you think the deal is at the end? Or is it, can you not talk to him about that?

I, this summer I might, might try during the season, you know, and plus like this stuff has become so either you're all in one way or you're just a hater and you're against it. There's like no middle ground with the Harden thing anymore. I think this is,

no, I think the situation is what it is. I don't think he's the same guy. We'll see what happens to the contract too, which I still think they'll probably end up doing, but I just wonder can you just look at the offensive efficiency over the course of a regular season and go, well, it's like some of the randomness of the playoffs where it'd be like, oh, well, the math just didn't work out

that day. Like, I just wonder if that's his default because I'm sure he thinks I'm an idiot by questioning it, which is fine. But I don't know if you'd ever talk to him about it or if you could even share it with us. It sounds like you didn't and you won't. How many teams can win the title in your opinion right now?

I have Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State, Phoenix. I have four and a, Golden State, Phoenix. I have four and a half because I think Miami needs to be mentioned, but I also don't think they can win the title. But I can see the case. Right.

I love Miami's defense, but some of these hero defensive numbers and the Duncan part of it, like as good as hero is as an option, offensively, there's some alarming numbers.

They're just not that very good of an offense. That's what this Atlanta series, you would have thought like maybe they'd be able to keep pace because it's not that tough to defend them. And Jimmy Butler's kind of going back to that top 10 Jimmy Butler, the will to survive Miami Heat bubble team. So.

They get the one seed, kudos to them. Yep. They end up with this Atlanta team. That's get the one seed kudos to them. Yep. Stand up with this Atlanta team. That's not very good. They get Embiid's thumb waiting for them in round two. Brooklyn gets knocked out. We think Boston and Milwaukee, only one can survive that one.

Miami ended up playing it perfectly. Everybody was so afraid to try to just go after the one seed. Miami did it. And like nine things worked out perfectly for that. Everybody was so afraid to try to just go after the one seed. Miami did it. And nine things worked out perfectly for that. All right. My last question before we hear about what it was like to live with two 14-year-olds for a week. I say this tentatively.

I don't want it used against me. I'm choosing my words carefully. Okay. This is not insulting. This is not a way for me to take a shot. In a vacuum. Are the playoffs more fun this year without LeBron? No, because I think the Lakers thing would have been really

funny to watch in a 1-8 matchup because I don't think it was going to go well that's where I landed too but whose spot are you giving them out of the 8 West teams because I've enjoyed all the teams I even enjoy Goofy Denver with Jokic and the Jokic Jets whose spot are you taking? I don't want to knock out New Orleans.

I've enjoyed the living hell out of New Orleans. It was so much more fun than watching fucking... Who was the white guy in the Lakers? Reeves? Listening to Reeves hit two threes in game two, followed by the Laker fans going, Reeves, look out! Here he comes!

Take it easy on Austin Reeves. Sorry. Minnesota? I don't want to bump Minnesota. I've enjoyed the hell out of Minnesota. No, I don't want to butt. I definitely don't. I guess I give them Utah's spot because I don't enjoy watching Utah. Yeah, but see, the thing is, I know how much you loved

watching the Lakers this year, so as much fun as this Pelicans thing would be, if the Lakers were to get it 2-2 against Phoenix with a would really enjoy that. You're right. You would have been like, this is even better than them being out of the playoffs. Cause you still wouldn't have thought they were going to win the series.

And then a Monday morning ESPN lineup. What LeBron is, you know, they take out Phoenix. Somebody would do it. Somebody take that. They go, this team's coming out of the West.

I'm disappointed with LeBron's tweeting. I thought he would tweet more. I was excited for him to send tweets about guys that he played with that were kind of like, I taught him everything he knows kind of tweets like with Ingram today. I was waiting for the Ingram tweet. Nothing.

Come on, LeBron. Step it up. Brandon Ingram, young king. Come on. Give us something. he probably would have done that to his guy Paul maybe that's why I didn't tweet about this game oh interesting

okay alright that's all I got I guess there's not really a lot to talk about with Miami Atlanta Minnesota Memphis nothing has changed

since game three what do you mean nothing's changed since game three well just like it was that game four was so weird

I don't my opinion that that's, that Memphis is in control of this series has not changed, even though it's 2-2. Okay. Wes, do you feel like Minnesota has a chance to win that series? It's just such a weird, it's such a weird series. I think Memphis is the better basketball team. Yeah.

When it's not the chaotic, but maybe because i thought so much of memphis i'm a little freaked out that it that we're where we're at um and there's some explanations for why we're here i think some of their half court stuff has been challenging uh at times i've loved some of the stuff that i've seen when they're running the half court offense but yeah the phoenix part of this, just going to bed tonight thinking, oh, wait, this is actually now a three-game series and this could happen. And then the Denver, we didn't mention anything with Denver today

because that very well at Wiggins. We mentioned it in the first pot. We did. We're just like, okay, what's Golden State going to look like on the next one? Although I thought there was a great Dallas point to be made. When Luka hit that three, and they were targeting Gobert again, but Gobert held up well, and there was two or three buckets

that Doncic made that you just go, actually, Gobert did everything you could ask him in that spot, but it's still the plan to go at him and do those things. In Utah, I thought attacked Doncic really well, but the way Dallas carried themselves with 40 seconds left, and that's how they lost the game.

They could have dialed it back a tiny bit. Yeah. My story from this week. You know I'm alone quite a bit. When a buddy hits me up, a guy who used to play for the LA Kings came out. I've known his son since he was born, basically.

He's a huge NBA fan. His name's Sully. He was on my podcast when I was back in vermont a couple years ago the this fake steve kerr picture so sully and his boy freddie uh came out they've never hung out in los angeles before and they're huge basketball fans so the first day we're all in the car we go on a little road trip and they're like practicing they go it's so weird to be in the car with you because we listen to you on the podcast all the time and my dad listens to you. And they're like, do you care if we impersonate you?

I was like, okay, no problem. And then they were like, I'm the biggest Donovan Mitchell fan there is, okay? So just so we're getting that out of the way now. But, and I've been very pro Donovan Mitchell. So like a 14-year-old kid is doing this to me in the back of the car and i kept asking like hey who are your favorite guys who are the guys you don't like and they both were like reluctant to

admit they still love westbrook and i started my westbrook position and the kids like dude i know it i know you don't like them i know you don't like them and then they were even like we feel like bill doesn't like lebron and i go i like, we feel like Bill doesn't like LeBron. And I go, I feel like he sounds like he doesn't like LeBron more than he actually does. I think we just point out some of the corny stuff. Yeah, we're just not Kool-Aid drinkers. Yeah, right.

So we go up to the Hollywood sign. I'd never done it before. What a thrill. What a thrill that was. Moms out there getting their IG posts on with kids around. Then we walked through Rodeo Drive. And I think they were a little freaked out. We didn't see more famous people.

And then we walked into Gucci because I just was like, yeah, let's just go in. And it's not fun. It's $5,000 slippers. Just like, what's going on here? The salespeople are staring at you. Totally. Because we were all just like assholes anyway. And so they were kind of like why are you guys in here but i was like whatever we go in here not a big deal but i think the part that was hilarious was just having people in my house my

buddy being like is this is this fucking up your whole world and i'll go look i'll admit it's weird now to like come home to stuff not being exactly the way it is because there's never anyone here and it's just you know growing up i wasn't the cleanest now i'm like immaculate about it being like i want this here i want that because it's just me and i don't have to worry about it so that can that can that can screw with you a little bit and then i was like oh okay so i gotta make sure i do towels for everybody all this stuff but these kids were awesome and my favorite thing one of the all we did a lot of cool stuff we played hoops a couple times together we went out to venice

they ended up making some video that ended up on this this uh social media service had like two million views they wanted to interview me i passed i let them take the mic for it but last night when me and the dad were like hey flight tomorrow i was like i got 10 hours of basketball to watch like you guys do whatever you want. Stay up, play video games. Last day of the vacation. As soon as we went to bed, they ordered $60 worth of food from KFC at like 1130 at night. Because they thought it was the coolest thing ever. Somebody's going to show up to your house that late. And I'm asleep, but not all the way out in my bedroom. I'm like, what the hell's going on out there? And I wake up and there's famous bowls, there's chicken, there's biscuits.

And it's just now it wasn't terrible. They didn't make like a huge mess, but there was all this food left over. And I was like, what were you guys doing? And they're like, well, it was the last night. Like we had to order chicken. KFC extravaganza. You idiot. So that was it. Then you had this kfc the next day you just had to figure out what to do with yeah yeah i think i was like yeah no i'll

definitely get into this later and his dad looked at me being like they're not gonna eat this are you left over kfc probably not probably not the next day my ben simmons the the non-quitter ben simmons um he we tried to take Postmates off his phone. It keeps regenerating. We don't know how it happens. Last night, like $50 at McDonald's, same thing. He just got hungry around nine o'clock. $50 at McDonald's, one guy?

Yeah. How's that even possible? He's going through a growth spurt right now. $50? Yeah. Well, when he gets Postmates, he's thinking of it as a three-meal thing for him. He eats some.

He puts stuff in the fridge. He'll eat it three hours later. He'll eat it for breakfast the next day. I've never seen anything like it. Right. And then when they do the thing where it's like, you still have seven minutes to throw some cigarettes and Seagram's on. And he's like,

yeah, you know, he hairline fractured his ankle. My son. Oh, I didn't know this. When did this happen? Uh,

about three weeks ago, skateboarding. We told him not to skateboard anymore. Cause he's going to play football this year. Don't fuck around. Don't get hurt. You're going to get hurt. No, no, I'm not. I'm not going to get hurt. And going to play football this year. Don't fuck around. Don't get hurt. You're going to get hurt. No,

no, I'm not. I'm not going to get hurt. And the skateboarding was escalating a little bit. And he was in like one of those bowls, you know, like to have like a actual skate park and thought he like broke his ankle and was the most upset.

I, my wife, I was at the masters. My wife said he was the most upset he's ever been. So the skateboarding career is now over. Gave away his skateboards. He's done. Gave them all away.

Yeah. So he lucked out. It was like the four-week Caroline fracture, but it's fine. Didn't hurt the growth plate, anything like that. But he's been in a cast for the last three weeks, and we've just been obliterating him. You think we were hard on Trey Young in the pod today? Way harder in our house.

Just absolutely calling him like the cripple and just, just destroying him. Saying he's getting chubby. Like, it's just,

all three of us are just tag teaming him about just what a dumbass he is. Because we never wanted him to skateboard again. He's, he's now,

he's broken a foot and a hairline fracture of his ankle skateboarding. Because he just is like fearless. So anyway, we're sending him to football because that football will be much healthier. Yeah. At least they keep scoring

football. Is he going full pads? Full heels? Yeah. So what, will it be freshman year? Graduates eighth grade and then like 10 days later the football starts like real we're going all summer that's it you'll come you'll come

I'm gonna get a jersey he's pretty fired up about it but right now can't can't walk so gets it off next week all right I said hey I didn't know that's all I said what's up yeah the boys boys are just nuts

as you just saw anyway alright you have two podcasts this week yeah I have a rewatchables tomorrow night we did a league of their own do you think Dottie dropped the ball on purpose never saw it oh there you go we might do

you and I might pop on the prestige TV pod and do Oh, there you go. We might do... You and I might pop on the Prestige TV pod and do We Own This City. We Own The City or We Own This City? Sounds good. David Simon. Yeah. And Bernthal, my guy. So we might pop on there

and review the first couple episodes too. And this podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. Steve Cerruti, destined to be rooting for Ben Simmons on the Orlando Magic in about a year, possibly this year. Would you rule out Ben Simmons getting traded this summer?

Getting spun for assets? I wouldn't rule it out. No. Yeah. Why would I rule it out? I mean, there's going to be three things that happen that none of us can predict right now anyway, so why not?

Dylan Berkey, thanks, Tim, too. And we will see you on this podcast on Tuesday. We'll see you then. Feel it's within On the wayside I'm a person I never was And I don't have to ever