The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 2: The Incredible Brady Roast, plus Round 2 Picks, and the Murky Deion/Heat/Lakers Futures With Ryen Russillo and Van Lathan

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

In Part 2 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons shares his thoughts on Netflix's live roast of Tom Brady (1:29), before he is joined by Ryen Russillo to talk about their expectations for Thunder-Mavs and Knicks-Pacers (17:02). Then, Van Lathan joins to discuss what the Heat should do with Jimmy Butler, whether the Suns should trade a big piece, the problems with Deion Sanders and Colorado, and a big Lakers deep dive, including LeBron’s future, the next coach, and the shadow of Kobe’s legacy (46:08). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ryen Russillo and Van Lathan Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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If you missed part one of this podcast, Rasil and I talked about Magic Cavs. We talked about Donovan Mitchell's future. We talked about Timberwolves, Denver, and Anthony Edwards, what's going on with him. Could this be Minnesota's year? So that was all in part one. This is gonna be part two. Coming up later, Rasil and I talk about Knicks, Pacers,

and we talk about OKC and the Mavs and what we think is going to happen in round two. Then we brought on Van Lathan to talk about a bunch of what do you do teams like the Suns, like Miami with Jimmy Butler, like the Lakers with LeBron James and the new coach. What do you do? Do you try to keep winning a title with LeBron? And that went into a whole Lakers, Kobe, LeBron. We just went in a whole bunch of directions with that. So that's really good. That's coming up in a second. But first I wanted to talk about the Netflix roast of Tom Brady. That was just spectacular. I had a lot of thoughts. I have some winners and losers. It's coming up.

First, our friends from ProJab. All right, I'm taping the very top of the podcast here. It's a little past 8 o'clock Pacific time. I just watched The Roast of Tom Brady, which I should have gone to. All week, I was planning on going. I had some stuff popping up. I was just like, you know what? I'll just drive to Anglewood.

I'll just stay here. I'll watch it. I really regret not going because the best way I can describe it for me and probably every other Patriots fan who's watching it, it was like being at a wedding where people start going up and giving toast, your family members, and it's getting progressively crazier and crazier. And you're like, oh my God, I can't believe Uncle Bob said that about Aunt Janet. Oh Jesus, Uncle Don's going up. And you just like, don't know what's going to happen next. And it's all these people that have been in your life, but it feels like all of a sudden there are no rules and there's a microphone. And that's what it was like. It went so much better than I ever expected. I want to rip through it. I did a little, uh, winners and losers. Um, and the biggest winner was Netflix because Netflix over and over again, figures out how to win. Um, this is not, this is not a message paid for by Netflix. Just

fantasy texted this, uh, to my little group today, and I couldn't agree more. They just put in the perfect night. Somehow there's no sports. It was the kind of live cultural event that barely exists anymore unless you have sports or award shows. And it was just unpredictable. I thought I would be popping in and out, not really watching, maybe even leaving, coming back later. You didn't know what was going to happen next, which was the whole point of a, of a live thing. But you know, the bigger

thing is comedy and roast and there hadn't been a roast in a while. Roast felt like they had kind of died by the mid 2010s. Um, they were just getting like super, super, super vicious, um, and not as fun and playful and weird and unpredictable as they used to be 20 years ago, partly because on the comedy Central ones, they were taped. So the live element, I thought, really, really helped. But they had big stars. It was funny. And there was really, really, really no limits.

And you could feel that immediately when people started, when Kevin Hart was making jokes about Brady's ex-wife and the jujitsu instructor. I can't say jujitsu instructor. There we go. And that was, I don't know, maybe five, six minutes in. And I was watching. I'm like, oh my God, he brought up the jujitsu instructor. I can't believe it. Brady must be dying. And by the hour mark, that was like not even one of the five worst things that anybody said. It just kept getting crazier and crazier. There are Aaron Hernandez jokes.

There were totally inappropriate jokes. It was so inappropriate that everything became appropriate after a while. I don't know what the line would have been. And that's what a roast should be. The whole point of a roast is cross the lines. Everybody's here. Everyone's on the same team.

We're just going to say the meanest, funniest things possible. And it's okay. And they brought that back. So kudos to Netflix. Kudos to Kevin Hart and Jeff Ross and everybody who put this together. A little bit of winners and losers. So winner, Bill Belichick, who, again, I've talked about this before on a podcast, but is somebody that people don't realize is kind of funny.

And the whole time was like doing that press conference shtick, but there was actually a little more there. He came out, his speech was, or not his speech, his roast was, I thought, good. I mean, considering what you would have expected, he came out and he said, the roast of Tom Brady, not to be confused with the 10-part roast of Bill Belichick on the Apple TV series. Unbelievable. Great job by him. My favorite part of it, there are two favorite parts.

One is the only player, ex-player, ex-Patriot that he picked on was Danny Amendola. And he went after him hard and it seemed pointed and it kind of seemed out of nowhere. But if you follow the Patriots, Amendola was very critical of Belichick in the Apple series and just in general has been kind of a dick about Belichick. So Belichick's like, this is great. I'm going to take shots at him and some of his lack of production. I love that. The, uh, the other thing was it got a tiny bit emotional at the end when he was, when he was having the moment with Brady and, you know, there's just so much respect. And especially when you're watching stuff from afar and the guys are, you know, taking maybe tiny shots at each other. People were writing these long written reports about how they don't get

along. And it was like, and you could tell like, whatever, they lasted all that time together and there's still some mutual respect. And I thought it was cool. I'm not saying I was sitting there on the couch sobbing, but it was cool to see. Another winner, and also might have been a loser at the same time, Jeffrey Ross, my friend, who made a craft massage joke. They show craft, and it's like, oh no, he's going to do it, and then he does it.

And Brady goes up and says, basically yells at him, like, don't do that shit again or whatever. Went viral, obviously. I'm like 70% sure Brady was mad about the craft joke and 30% I feel like Jeff was like, if craft's here, somebody's got to make a massage joke, so why don't I'll do it,

then you come up to the podium and pretend you're mad at me. But it was great for Jeff. I mean, the two best pop culture things for Jeff are this and when Sal pranked him and he actually got voted off at Dancing with the Stars. He's getting a ton of mileage out of this. Jeff will give 230 interviews about how Tom Brady's not really mad at him and they really get along. I'm a little suspicious. Drew Bledsoe was a winner. Great sense of humor to go up there. I liked his roast. I thought he had some good ones. But you go to this thing and one of the reasons that some people don't want to do them is if you're on the dais, even if you're just sitting there, you become a target.

But one of the things I love about Bledsoe is he's totally at peace with how this whole thing played out, it seems. And he makes the self-deprecating jokes about it and how now he didn't turn into an alcoholic, but he does own a winery. I just thought he was a big winner. The big loser, and I'll go back to some of the winners, but Kim Kardashian, unbelievable. My wife is flying from Boston right now. And it was the only time I texted her. I was like, Kim Kardashian just got legit booed at the Tom Brady roast. Is this a thing that happened? Yeah, it was the thing that happened. And to the point that people on the day has felt uncomfortable and started applauding to try to shift the crowd away from it. But man,

going against Taylor Swift, just a lot of repercussions. But people did not want to see her. I've never seen that at a roast before. Another loser was Foxborough High, which just repeated jokes because that was the legendary Belichick thing about how, yeah, even the fucking guy at Foxborough High would know how to do that. So a loser, but also a winner because when was the last time somebody was talking about Foxborough High?

Gronk and Edelman were both winners. I thought their roasts were funny. One of the reasons I thought this roast was going to be bad was that Gronk and Edelman would be two of the people doing roasts, but they did a great job. Edelman had some killer one-liners. These are my favorites. I wrote that three. In case you didn't know, Alex Guerrero is the snake oil salesman who turned Tom Brady into a fucking weirdo. Unbelievable. And every time they cut to Alex Guerrero, loser, by the way, every time they cut to

him, he's like, oh, this is so funny. You knew he was dying inside. Edelman said, so many legendary patriots tonight. I figured the next time I see you all would be at Kraft's funeral. Wow. And then he said to Brady, he starts busting Brady's balls. He's like, who's laughing? Not you because your face can't move. You have no sense of humor.

I thought that was great. And the other great thing about Gronk, and Gronk was obviously insane, but anyone who knows the Patriots knows that he was going to be insane. And it felt like he was going off the rails when he did his to the point that Kevin Hart even mentioned after it was like, wow, I didn't know where that was going. Um, Gronk and Edelman, every time they cut to them, I love their reactions. Cause Edelman had that, like that kind of open mouth laugh, like, and then, uh, Gronk, Gronk, just his different reactions. Cause he was probably the biggest butt of the jokes tonight. Uh, he just was really good. But part of the keys of the roast are the people in the day is how they're selling the jokes when they're about them. And if you watch like Jeff Ross, Nikki Glaser, people like that, they know how to like really overlap and sell it. Gronk Edelman, those guys weren't doing that, but they were doing a fun version of it that I liked. Kevin Hart, I thought was a really good host. I think Jamie Foxx during the

Emmett Smith roast is the best hosting performance I've ever seen, but Kevin Hart was good too. Because you have to have your material at the top, but then you also have to play with what's happening over the course of the night, maybe react a little to some of the roastings. I thought he did a good job. Nikki Glaser was fantastic and probably did the best start to finish thing. I thought her favorite one, the best one was, how did you lose 30 million in crypto? Even Gronk was like,

you know that not real money. That fucking slayed. People love that one. I was thinking for a couple losers, I mentioned Alex Guerrero, the Apple doc. I mean, poor Apple spends all that money in the Patriots thing, which I guess people watch. Then Netflix comes with this Tom Brady roast, flies a bunch of celebrities in and gets way more interesting Patriot stuff in three hours on a live show than that documentary did. Aaron Hernandez, a loser yet again,

the butt of a lot of jokes, The butt of a lot of jokes, the butt of a lot of inappropriate jokes. Pete, once one person went after Hernandez, it just kept going. Dana White, I felt like was a borderline loser. I don't know why they had him roast for a minute, but I probably wouldn't have done that. And then a lot of the jokes about him

were pretty pointed about him exploiting MMA fighters. But I can't imagine, I wonder if he would do that over again. Randy Moss's outfit, definitely a loser. I was glad people made movie usher jokes about it. For some winners, Eli Manning, I thought was a huge win for him. He was the go-to. He's the one guy who beat you and then Brady finally acknowledged it. The jujitsu instructor, big win for him tonight. I don't know if he was watching, but I'm sure he loved it. Um, roast in general, big winner. Cause I feel like roast now have to come back. There's no way this wasn't a massive success for Netflix. Twitter means way less than

it used to be mean, but, uh, this was number one trending. So many people were texting me, are you there? Oh my God, this is unbelievable. So big win for them. Losers, Brady's marriage, tough one. I was wondering, did the kids watch this? Did his ex-wife watch this? The one thing, I thought the two things that made him super uncomfortable were when Jeff made the Bob Craft massage joke. And then a couple of times people played the Bridget Moynihan card and that was the one that he was just dying.

Just absolutely dying. And you could Google some of the reasons for that. But I was, I was surprised that people went there. The only thing that nobody made a joke about was his hair. And it made me wonder, like, did they tell people the hair is off limits? It seemed like it was the one thing that was off limits. I thought for sure, at least one person would be like, how the fuck do you have more hair now than you had 20 years ago? But nobody did. So that was interesting.

Although Edelman did make plastic surgery stuff. And then the big moment, Kevin Hart got Kraft and Belichick to do a shot together. And I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't watch it with my own eyes. And he was trying to get it going. And I'm like, there's no way this will fucking happen because Belichick hates Kraft. I mean, you know

all the reasons why. And Kraft, he mentions it. All of a sudden, Kraft's wandering up to the stage and he's grabbing a glass. Now Belichick has to go and Belichick goes up and it just could not have been icier. Belichick's body language, you know, those body language experts that, I mean, I'm a body language expert for basketball, but those body language experts that they, uh, they have like the TikTok accounts, like somebody analyzing Belichick's body language as he like acknowledged Kraft, did the shot, but like kind of turned away from him at the same time. And then Kraft had to do his bullshit. I always said he's the greatest football coach of all time and Belichick's like, yeah, whatever, fuck you, dude.

I just love the Belichick energy of this whole thing. I thought this was such an absolute win for Belichick. And a lot of these people, like Edelman, Gronk. I'm glad people finally got to see how absolutely insane Gronk is. A couple other jokes I really liked. Kevin Hart saying Tom Brady's been fucking so much that his dick has CTE. That killed me. CMJ, who was good, had that, you took out illegal PPE loans, didn't raise your kids.

You left the Patriots because you were too black for Boston. That killed. That was, I thought, one of the biggest laughs of the night. Andrew Schultz said Bill Belichick has secretly filmed more guys than the other team than Diddy. Got the biggest, whoa, noise from the crowd. And then the last winner was Brady, who I still don't really fully understand why he did it, but he came out at the end. It seemed like maybe he was a tiny bit imbibed. I'm not sure, but he said about Kim Kardashian, she's terrified to be here, not because of this, but because her kids are home alone with dad. He said, I want to buy a piece of the Raiders. I'm tired of owning the Colts and the Bills. That one cut deep. The Colts are Broncos that don't fuck. And then he said, my favorite ring. It's not the next one.

It's the one that caught Bill Belichick slinking out of that poor girl's house at 6 a.m. Holy shit. He was bringing it. I mean, my son only saw the Brady part and he was like, does Brady realize they're televising? It's like nobody's ever seen this side of Brady. Everybody had heard it exists. And he finally decided to show it. I thought it was interesting that he left this going. I miss the love of my life. Pause. Football, which was the

perfect way to go out. But I thought it was a really cool night. Hopefully, roasts are back. Hopefully, Netflix will keep doing these. And as a Patriots fan, I think this was the thing in a lot of ways that gave this whole era closure, having those three on stage, having the Belichick craft awkwardness, having the belt Belichick and Brady, obviously there's some deep affection there, uh,

having a lot of the legends up there. And it was a really cool night. I had a good time, everybody three hours with, uh, the rest of the time, Brady. All right.

We are going to take a break and come back with Rosilla and I talking about the second round, Knicks, Pacers, and OKC Mavs. And then we're going to bring in Van Lathan and talk about a whole bunch of stuff. Sorry for the gigantic part too, but I couldn't resist doing the Brady thing. Back in a second.

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you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast, 2.20 now, Sunday afternoon. All the basketball is done. We're going to look forward to some fun series. New York, Indiana, and OKC Dallas. I've already gotten arguments with people in my life about.

Let's start with OKC Dallas. Storyline you're most excited for from the series? Just the continuation of the rebirth of Kyrie. That's what I had too. Are you serious? Yeah. We'll go.

I'd just given up on him. That's it. I don't really have anything fancy to say. I'd given up on him as a basketball player I was going to enjoy watching. And watching him resuscitate his career and become this beloved team guy. And then also tap into all the offensive stuff that we always loved watching

and just seeing somebody put this together after I'd given up on it is pretty intriguing. Yeah. Cause I don't think I would have without the Kyrie element. I don't know that I would have given Dallas a shot. Because the same stuff that we talked about in part one, but like, what if this is real with Minnesota? But I'm really going to pick against Denver. And then I do the same stuff with OKC. I'm like, wait, what if these, they never slow it out offensively. Like they always have a way to attack you.

They have a great go-to guy to close in SGA, but all the other pieces fit. And if two of those pieces don't fit, they have two other pieces they can bring in. But then, of course, it would be a Chet size thing that you're going to worry about there a little bit. But against Dallas, I think that's the problem. Dallas can't exploit the thing that you would think OKC could be exploited with, and it's going to be Dort on Luka. They have guys to throw at Luka, which I like,

and they have guys to annoy Kyrie. I don't think you're going to stop him if he's playing this well, but they can make him work. They can frustrate him. Luca will still have his 30. It's just how easy is it? So, Dork is probably one of the guys' best position to at least just make Luca have to

work over the course of a seven-game series. But the Kyrie part of this, the way they closed out the Clippers, we were both at that game, and it just felt like with a few minutes to go in the first half, Dallas figured him out. And the Kleba thing's huge. You know, him being reevaluated here in three weeks, so Dallas would have to get through this for him to be a factor at all. I just love the option.

I mean, he was so big in game five for them there. And then watching game six, it was like, no, we've got you figured out. It doesn't matter. You know, even though you have some size stuff that you go to and your big guns can't really be trusted, we don't need to do another hardened segment. So Dallas is really, really impressive when it's, when it's Kyrie and Luca, because you can make an argument. That's the best one, two scoring punch in the playoffs. I said to Mahoney on Thursday night, we did a pod and I rarely do this anymore on pods because it's so easy for people to screenshot it and then throw the video back in your face if you

were wrong. But I felt the same way you did at game five. I was like, they figured them out. The series is over. I just don't think the only road back for the Clippers to win a game six would be a Miami game two, 23 threes type situation. I just think Dallas completely understands how to beat them now and they're a better team. And then they went out and it was a tie game at halftime and they poured it on. Who do you think I'm picking in this series? The line is OKC minus 120 for the series. Knowing me, we spent a lot of time talking basketball over the years. Who do you think i have in this series uh well there's not the value playing the bat so i don't think the line has anything to do

with it because it's it's so close but i think you're gonna go with dallas interesting that's what i thought i thought too but i really likeC. And I actually think the line is disrespectful to them with Kliba being out. I can't believe this is basically a pick-em series. You look at the best lineups Dallas had in that Clipper series, Kliba's in the top four. He's in their four best lineups and he's the one guy who allows, I thought they stumbled into something really interesting is that series went along where they didn't play either Gafford or lively and they went a little smaller and they just tried to cheat with it and get spacing and offense. And it was pretty unstoppable. And now they lost that. And I don't know who else can be the space small ball guy. Cause that was a fun one to watch. Yeah. You were way higher on that trade than I was. I really have grown to like PJ because I think he knows exactly

who he is and what they want from him, and he's fine with it. And I think he's like, he grew up loving the Mavs and he's happy to be there and he's happy to be part of it. He's happy to be in the playoffs. And I liked how hard he was playing that Quipper series. But with Kliba, I thought that's a lineup they would have needed against OKC. Because OKC, they're going to spread them out. They're going to try to bring those centers

away from the basket and then just try to attack the paint. And I don't know. I like this matchup for OKC. It's a little similar to Denver, Minnesota, where I like all the options they have to throw at the two Dallas scores to at least make them work and slow them down. And then on the other hand, I think they're going to be able to get the shots they want. So I'm picking OKC. If there's a lesson that I've always felt like I've been taught

watching this game and a preference that I have, I just don't like ball stoppers. I don't like offensive players that their primary thing is I'm going to stop the ball and then I'm going to do my thing. Which is probably where some of the criticisms come in from Boston, despite the absurd numbers. And, you know, we expect to dominate against Miami. And I still would be shocked if they don't get out of the East. But when I think about the Clippers, it's ball stoppers. Now, the ball stopping work with Harden hitting every one of those floaters in the fourth quarter against the smaller lineup.

So you wonder, okay, would their adjustment be there? Well, it didn't really matter, you know, because then it's not that big of a deal. And when I think about the perimeter defense for Dallas, although I think Kyrie's been better, and he's definitely pushing that. He's talked about defense three different times here. Well, you saw it in game five. He was actually really trying hard on defense.

I was impressed. Right, but then there's going to be other times, too, if he's up against a Jalen Williams or an SGA or a Dort. Your effort can be there, but the size mismatch. I mean, with Luka, it's probably the best

you could hope for is average i think derrick jones pretty good defensively you know if josh green like josh green's one of these guys like you just throw him out there for six minutes and see what happens and i think we've been complimentary of him and his energy and the way he plays you just wish the shot were more consistent but when i thought about the series, I just went, I don't know. I feel like OKC is the non-ball-stopping stuff, even if SGA can get a little ISO-ish, but it still works so well. The pace, they run, they move the thing. And Dallas, when they flipped that clip series, partly because they were playing with pace and they started pushing it,

even though Luka had had to seem 100%. OKC is going to love that. Oh, you guys want to do that? Great. That sounds awesome. They have a lot of dudes that... We've seen Kyrie, the right kind of teams, frustrate him as the series goes along by just making him constantly work, work, work,

banging him up, being physical, changing the guards on him. I thought that's what the Celtics did in 22 against them when he had that really good first Nets game. And by game four, it felt like he didn't want to really be in the series as much anymore. I think, okay, so you can do that. I think their home court is super valuable.

Their crowd is just loud and annoying and it's just constant noise for two and a half hours. And the SGA piece, this is a great stage for him, right? Because I don't think people consider him on the level of Luka and Jokic and some of these other dudes, even though I know the MVP voting went a certain way. But ultimately, if it's him versus Luka,

I think most people are going to be like, oh, Luka's better than Shea. He should win that matchup. And I don't think SGA has flexed his muscles on the big stage like this yet. And I'm a believer. So I think OKC wins. I mean, SGA's shooting numbers against them were fine from the floor, but he actually just didn't take a lot of shots in the four games they played against him.

You know, the free throw numbers are beta game, but only 14 shot attempt from SGA or even Jalen Williams in this one. But I want to get back to the Kyrie things you said about him being frustrated think of it this way if you're having a bad day and then something else bad happens you're going to react in an entirely different way right if you've already had a bad day you've had bad news at work bad news at home and then you get a parking ticket you're probably just going to lose your shit in a way that you shouldn't you're like all right you know what I'm the one that didn't pay the meter.

It's 50 bucks. Just make sure I just pay this online before I find out about it in a letter a year from now when I'm renewing my registration. Right. But like when you're talking about right now, no, I'm actually talking to like, oh, three or four myself. OK, like, hey, you know why you get a ticket? Because you shouldn't have parked there.

That's why it's just about you. That's it. No, the world's not out to get you, even though I think of the boston ticketing practices were a little bullshit back in the day but the point is especially in blizzards jesus well that's the thing is the snow game there if you live on calm after you live one of these things you're like why don't i just mail you 200 bucks a month yeah as some sort of membership into not getting the tickets you're going to find a way to give me a ticket all right ran over but it was bullshit but if you're kairi and it felt like you know if we're

to if we're to just buy into his his pure basketball happiness again right he's basketball happy for the first time in eight years because clearly 17 he wants out we've already done the timeline yeah we've done you point it right right right and i don't this isn't even a negative thing about kairi it's simply like if everything was always kind of a hassle and he was unhappy about every single step, this might be the realist version because he's not having the bad days leading up to the game. So when things get tough, he's not as likely to get as frustrated as he did in all of those playoff moments. So it's going to get really hard because OKC is awesome. And there's going to be a game.

Look at the first half that he had against game six. You're like, whoa, what's going on here? And then just eats everybody. He had two plays. And I know everybody's seen the clip of the bench losing as he hits that shot at the baseline. There was one before that where Coffey looked like he was holding him like a cardboard box and you couldn't even see Kyrie anymore.

He was just missing behind the body of coffee and he still gets out of it, finds a way, breaks everybody down and score. So he feels like because he's finally settled somewhat here in a, in a settling version of his story that I didn't know we'd ever see again, that I don't know that he's as likely to just check out the way he's checked down in some of these other, and I'm not talking about the points. I'm talking about the thing you're pointing to.

It's consistency. Yeah. Consistency, demeanor. You know, there's been guys in the past who were super talented and for whatever reason, it took them a while to, to get their sea legs back. Like I always think of Rashid in 04, where he got to the point where his, his value compared to how talented he was, was 30 cents on the dollar. And I think all of us said that it was like, this guy's too crazy during eight 41 technicals in a season, you know, Portland was ready to drive in the airport by the time it was over.

And then he found that Pistons team. And for whatever reason, it fell into place for him for a couple of years there. And, and all of a sudden all the Rashid stuff that was the self-sabotage stuff team. And for whatever reason, it fell into place for him for a couple of years there. And, and all of a sudden, all the Rashid stuff that was the self-sabotage stuff stopped happening as much. And he won a title with them. So I think that's your best case scenario for this Kyrie thing, but I do feel like he's older and it just seems like he's at a different point. And I think they

really like shower him with love and friendship and attention and camaraderie and just believe in him like him and luca maybe maybe he needs to play with somebody who's great to not have the stuff now you said well why didn't wasn't that the case with durant i don't know what the fuck happened in brooklyn nobody does but for whatever reason with luca there's a mutual respect with those guys and a lack of ego that works. Yeah. And he talked about it too. Like, Hey,

as I'm a little bit older and I think he kind of relishes like, Hey, I've been around the block, you know, never like Kobe just overnight was all of a sudden like, yeah, he was like, yeah,

yeah. Great old man of the week. Like, wait, which is like 12 months ago was totally, but yeah, I think 12 months ago you were a stink eyeing Pau Gasol for an hour. The Rashid one's interesting. Cause you know,

I had a real hard time with Rashid during that. Cause I was like, you're just deciding to get technicals every night. Like you just want all of these technicals. And the second you were with the Pistons, it was done. So it proved like Rashid was actually a little bit more predictable. It was like, once you just left a situation you didn't want to be in, you were a completely different guy. And I think that journey for Kyrie took a little bit more time because, you know, we're only a year removed from the end

of last year. We were like, what do you do? And then everybody being scared about how much money you would have to give Kyrie. But all the quotes are for a guy that's, it's got a few that made you go, what the fuck are you talking about? The quotes are not, they don't feel like platitudes. It feels like this really like introspective. I'm with you. Yeah. I'm with you.

We totally agree. It's same thing. Like when the Minnesota guys talk about Anthony Edwards and like hearing Conley talking about him a couple of days ago and it's just like, man, this guy's all in on Edwards. Like this doesn'tley talking about him a couple of days ago. And it's just like, man, this guy's all in on Edwards. Like this doesn't feel like performative media shit. He's telling us stories about,

yeah, I love Anthony Edwards. He's the young MJ. I'm playing with young MJ. There is nothing that Ant has ever said or anyone has ever said about him in the short time he's been in the league where I feel like it's just for show. Like there's other stars in the league who i may even like but i'm like you're saying this because this is the right thing to say at the time or whatever yeah and it's like you know what i still even like

you i might even defend you a little bit but this feels a little with ant there's none of that and i'd say through this last stretch with kair, like ever since that hook shot against Denver, you know, I'm sure there was still more of it locally prior to that, but it just changes. It just changes everything you think is possible about what could happen in the West. I just don't think their team's good enough to beat OKC. And I made a real mistake underrating OKC in the last round. I'm not doing it again.

They play really well together. They're deep. They have a guy who just feels like he can get 35 in every game. Jalen Williams is kind of the leap guy of the second round. I think if you're looking at the eight teams left, he's the guy that we might be talking about a little differently two weeks from now. And, uh, I just feel like, I think OKC gets by them because partly Dallas is a little overvalued because that Clippers team, they beat them and they look good as the series went along. But I think that Clippers team was a mess.

I mean, as soon as the season ended, some of the unhappy stuff that started floating out of there, you know, some of the Ty Lue stuff, it's like, oh, we can't lose Ty Lue. It's like, you can't? Was Ty Lue like incredible this season? Because that team was kind of all over the map. Paul George is up and down. Got to resign him. I guess you do. Cause you're opening. Everyone's like, you're opening the new arena. So you're going to open a new arena with a $250 million payroll of guys who just got bounced in round one. And we don't know if they're going to play. Um, I think that was a nice round one opponent is my point.

You get this Kawhi situation that's just up and down for four games. They finally shelve them. They couldn't really hurt them inside in the same way. And they did what they were supposed to do and win. What do you think about Indiana and New York? I like this new game. Who do you think I'm picking in that series? New York.

I think Indiana can beat them. I think the bet, I wouldn't bet on this series for either team because I don't like the odds because New York is favored. They're minus 265, which I think is too high. And if I had to do a bet if I had to bet one thing

and I may have already bet this Pacers in six is six to one on FanDuel they're not winning game seven in MSG I just don't see it and they're not winning in five because they'll play two shitty games but I think if they win this series

it has to be they win game six here's my fear with the Knicks they don't have enough guys because they'll play two shitty games. But I think if they win this series, it has to be they win game six. Here's my fear with the Knicks. They don't have enough guys. Like at some point, just playing six and a half guys for eight weeks and putting that kind of load on Brunson night after night after night,

then with the way the Pacers play, how fast they're going to try to play and speed them up, plus you have the Rick Carlisle piece. I think it's a really dangerous series. I just think people are penciling the Knicks into round three because the Pacers aren't going to make the conference finals.

People are just putting the Knicks in there already. I think it's a closer series than that. Are you picking the Pacers? I'd either pick... I have two picks. Knicks in seven or Pacers in six. Oh, okay. So you've really made up your mind. I think, how about this?

My pick is this game goes at least, this series goes at least six games. And I think either team can win. And at gunpoint, I would take the Knicks in seven, but I also think Pacers in six is a great bet. And it's a really hard one to figure out. Okay. But you're talking about that because the payout, and I think you're smart to look for that. Like, Hey, where's the good value payout here for something that's somewhat probable. And yeah, when I think about the Knicks, it's like, okay, is it six? Is it seven guys? The

thing is I like all of their guys. I like all of their guys. Okay. Miles McBride to come into these games as late as he does. And as soon as he gets it, like there's not a player like Miles McBride to come into these games as late as he does and as soon as he gets it. There's not a player like Miles McBride who looks like he's done nothing, and I'm okay with him taking maybe the biggest shot in the game at that time. And he has no fear whatsoever. The heart rebounding stuff is absurd. Now, I don't know if he felt like he was getting burned on that a little bit when Batum and Heald, especially Heald, started hitting all the shots in game six. You're like, hey, wait, now I have to actually defend these guys

and I can't just lurk and grab all these extra offensive boards. The Brunson thing is totally real. He's so good, but I would never go, all right, well, give me the team where you never know who the second offensive option is going to be any other night and it's a small guard taking 30 shots a night. I'll pick them. Give me them. But I fell in love with them during this Philly series.

I fell in love with their toughness, and I think the Pacers' defense, even though I really like the team, whether it's the Siakam stuff, whether it's Halliburton, you know, having some glimpses again, even though the shooting numbers aren't where you want them to be. The ball seems to end up in the hands of guys

sometimes a little bit more than I'd want to. Like, I feel like Nembhard ends up with the ball a lot, too. a lot too. And Turner can stretch the defense a ton, although I think his defense has declined. I just think the Pacers' defense is so bad, you're in every single game. You could be down 15, 18 to them. You're like, just keep playing, just keep playing hard. So this is a toughness pick for me, although I would agree with your concerns about the limitations of the Knicks. And you know, the reason that I think ultimately I'm going to make a pick just because I don't want to be a wuss.

I know what you were doing, but I'm going to take the Knicks. But gradually I think the odds are too high. But the reason is I think the Pacers, if they're just going to play two weeks of basketball against one team, they're going to have two shit games out of the seven, right? They just are. They're going to have two shit games out of the seven. Right? They just are.

They're going to suck in two of the games. I don't know which two of the first five they're going to suck in, but they're going to suck in two of them. So now they have to win basically four of the next five, including a game seven in New York. Or they'd have to sweep all four of the games where they play well. And I just think the Knicks have less margin for error. My favorite bet on Fando actually is Indiana plus

one and a half games for the series is basically even. It's plus 106. Because I think this series will go six or seven. The Knicks, they just don't have enough guys. I like that. I like that a lot. I just think this is a long series. And also, I hate to say it, but who does the league want to win this series?

I mean, let's be honest. Pacers, Bertha basketball, Indiana, French lick, Hoosiers. The league would. Caitlin Clark. Knicks, Celtics. It's going to be. I don't know. I'll just rattle it off.

It's going to be hard for, hard for Indy to get calls in a couple of these games would be my guess. Okay. But I think it's going to be a good series. series if the pacers win this series can you ever suggest that again because it just happened in game six and no one ever keeps track of the outcome that doesn't back the conspiracy theory fucking ever and so yeah i'm a little turned on right now but when scott when foster is assigned to game six new york philly and everybody's like oh classic like of course or this one has to go back to New York. Every time the internet loses their mind about some assignment, some conspiracy, and then lays out this perfect example of like, yeah, they probably do want a game seven.

And they're going to want it this weekend. And they're going to want it at MSG. They're going to want to extend this series. And that's why they signed the officials here. And then the game is over and the theory doesn't happen and the other teams eliminated there is no extra game in the big market nobody ever no one has fucking ever said my bad did you see all the mb calls that he got in game six i did come on we'll do our best example ever. Okay, but if it's all fixed, then you can't, like there'll be three calls within the last three minutes

where you go, well, why would they call that one if they want the game seven? The point is. I think it's just the spirit. Like Lakers Nuggets game five, the 27 to nine free throw advantage when Mike Malone's like, Jokic played a great game.

He was perfect from the line. He was zero for zero. The free throw line. I thought that was one of my favorites. Watching Lakers fans lose their minds about not getting calls in that series. It's just like, hey, you know who's not allowed? It's the same thing as the Sixers. Yeah. He's not allowed. Not allowed to bitch ever. I hate the Brunson call that he got, the Trey Young play. I hate that he got that call. I've brought up Brunson foul hunting, although with his free throw rate, it's really not to the level of some of the other guys, but Brunson has a

creative way about falling down. So it's really frustrating if it's one of those nights where Brunson is going to get some of those calls. I hate that Brunson got that call at the end. You know, who's not allowed to just edit up clips of questionable foul calls? Fucking Sixers fans. Yeah. I would put them in the top three. We don't want to hear you referee bitching. On the Knicks, quickly.

Yes. If Brunson takes them to a conference finals, we're now allowed to start comparing him to the great Knicks of all time. I thought we were a little early. I think, I think I had a tweet about, man,

this is like more than a whiff of Bernard in 1984, that kind of stuff. But I, people just get carried away with some of this. Oh my God, is this the greatest Knicks? But like the, the perk thing I'll never get over.

Um, this different stakes for him in this series, winning round one versus actually like dragging a team to the conference finals. That's just missing dudes, right? They're missing Randall. They're big trade deadline guy.

They don't have any more. Bogdanovich, Burks doesn't play. Tibbs is just going to play everybody 45 to 48 minutes, I guess. And if they can still drag that to the conference finals, man, that puts them on...

Now you're really in the conversation, I think. Because what Bernard did in game seven, like in that 1984 Boston, just dragging that team to a game seven against that crazy Celtics team is harder than anything Brunson's done so far.

I'm just going to say that. I'm just protective of Bernard. I'm protective of the old stuff. When people talk about the history of the game, just do like two seconds of research first, please. Well, the shot attempts alone are going to make, but they're also huge shots.

That was a tough series. He was fucking incredible. But I'd rather not have one guy taking 30 shots a game, but it worked against Philadelphia. And he's probably going to put up huge numbers against the Pacers. I mean, Nismith's going to try to start a fight with him. Nembhard's going to put up huge numbers against the Pacers. I mean, Neesmith's going to try to start a fight with him.

Nembhard's going to try to start a fight with him. They're going to... T.J. McConnell? People don't realize... I don't think the casual Knicks fans realize what's going to happen in the series from...

Like, the amount of people they're going to hate on the Pacers. They're going to fucking hate Neesmith. They're going to fucking hate his guts. Neesmith they're gonna fucking hate his guts Neesmith it's I respect that he found like his lane

you know because I thought when he first came to the league it's like okay look at the shooting profile like this is a guy that's supposed to give you some spacing athletic body you know big enough to defend and all this stuff now he is like a he's like a dog that you bring over to somebody's house like for the first time when he gets out of the court you're like whoa you're like hold on don't worry about it like he'll be on the counter yeah like why

what's gonna he's just friendly just pet him just just make sure you pat up and you're just like like this is you're right he's frenetic energy energy it's it's and sometimes it's amazing and then sometimes look maybe you need it for a team that doesn't play great defense like i'm not i'm not even critical of any of it when i see knee smith play and this is actually more of a compliment it's just that sometimes he plays like even faster than I think is possible. Like he's so fast in what he's doing out there. And I'm not talking about like, yeah, frenzy may be the better word. One bad matchup for this New York team is,

is Indiana, they do have multiple guards who just want to over and over again, attack, get in the paint, attack, get in the paint. And you could see that in the, in the last series with TJ as that series went along. And then he's just like, fuck it. I'm getting to the paint. And you could see that in the last series with TJ as that series went along. And then he's just like, fuck it. I'm getting to the rim.

Who's stopping me? And Milwaukee obviously wasn't going to stop them because none of their guards could guard anybody. But I do think that could be one way for them. Like a big TJ series, just attacking, hunting Brunson. Turner hit some threes. And then Siakam as the wild card. Siakam, I thought, was really, really good in round one.

As it always does, it's who's going to be the best player in the series. He didn't even shoot it yet. He let them in scoring. But I think what you're saying with Siakam, it's, hey, can you have a few moments to carry us and be the number one? Can you have 39 in game two, where it's like,

we stole game two because you were awesome. I think that ship has sailed for Halliburton, first 10 weeks of the season Halliburton. I don't know if that guy is coming back this year, but he's figured out ways to impact the game. But he just, to me, looks like

an all-star, a fringe all-star some nights, not all NBA. That guy, I don't think we're going to see again this season. He clearly has some sort of something that he's not 100%. And we'll probably find out afterwards what it is. Nick's Pacers. Can't wait for the Reggie Miller highlights. All right, we're gonna take a break and come back with Van Lathan. And now it's time for today's hard to handle segment presented by State Farm. Life's big moments like buying a house can trigger big reactions like, I can't handle that. Dang. Or, oh, come on. But what you should say is like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. So we're going to talk about this weekend's biggest hard-to-handle moments, a.k.a. some on-court occurrences

that stirred up some strong reactions. My biggest reaction was the Minnesota-Denver game, which we already talked about on the podcast. But when it hit that fourth quarter, both teams playing

at the level they're playing at and wondering who's going to rise up. First, it was Nas Reed, but then eventually it was Edwards. I think Edwards scored 12 points in the last eight minutes, big shots, but it was more like there was an alpha impact on the game that he was having where he's completely unafraid. He felt like he was athletically superior to everybody on Denver. And the way he was like playing off his teammates, like that one big shot he hit.

And he's just looking at the whole bench. And it was like, honestly, like watching March Madness or something. And it was just really cool to watch because I didn't think anyone was beating Denver this year. And I left that game going, wow, somebody might actually knock Denver out of a series. So that was probably my favorite one. But when things feel hard to handle, like when you need help protecting what matters most, remember to say, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there, like Anthony Edwards was there the other night. With State Farm, you can talk to your agent to help choose the coverage you need, select from coverage options to protect the things you value most,

file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Visit statefarm.com to learn more. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, 1 specially developed helmet, thousands of high-intensity focused ultrasound waves, 0 incisions. And that very same day, 2 steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special.

Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful, as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. All right, we're going to play a game called... What do they do? Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. basketball fan. I don't love all your takes. You have some good ones every once in a while. Appreciate that.

And you and Russula are both wearing cowboy hats. I am not wearing anything. What do you do? I prepped you to do the Lakers, but can we talk about some other teams? I feel like you can chip in because you follow the league. Miami and Jimmy Butler has turned into a what do they do for me, where he turns 36 in September, 48.8 million this year, 52.4 million next year. His missed games dating backwards, 22, 18, 25, 20, 17, 17, 23 in 2018.

They have 145 million next year for five guys. And Jimmy Butler wants an extension on top of the money that they have coming. Van Latham, what would you do if you're Miami? What do you do? Blow it up. Blow it up. Yeah, to the degree that you can in terms of with Jimmy, and I'll tell you why. Jimmy Butler is a great plus player. I don't think that Jimmy Butler,

he's good enough to do exactly what he's done, which is have your team in the mix and competitive for a very long time. If you give him the money, you're essentially ceding the opportunity to be competitive at the highest level for the foreseeable future because it's too much money for him. And then at the same time, he's not the type of player that even at this height was ever the winning player in the championship formula. So I don't understand if the barometer or the bar for Miami for heat culture is championships, why they would make that investment. You have bad Mata Bayo. You have some other pieces there. Blow it up to the degree, not totally blow it up to the degree that you let Jimmy find something else to do and you try to build with a core that can be

competitive in the East that's getting increasingly more competitive every day to me. They've always really cared about winning there. They've been good enough to be in the mix but never really good enough to be a team that we thought, okay, well Miami's going to win the championship this year. And the question is, if not now, when? Rusillo, you're the biggest Jimmy Butler fan on the Zoom.

Yeah, Butler's always been a really challenging one for me because he gets all the credit because he's never really a top five guy and they play in two finals two finals nobody really picked them i don't think you know i mean you're sure we could find some heat fans that were going to pick them but i think most people would say they weren't going to win those finals and they didn't and you're like playoff jimmy and all this stuff i mean just watching him talk shit while he's on the bench and then not playing and from like the moment he talked shit in game, game three, Boston outscored him by

like 100 points. Right. And you're just going like you get to talk and then you're not even really out there. But like part of me really respects who you are and that you bring it. But then you miss a million games and you treat the regular season like it doesn't even matter. So they're supposed to max you back out here. And I'd tell you, Miami's probably grown sick of him, but he's their guy. So all those years of like, oh, maybe Giannis will end up there,

or maybe Mitchell will end up there, or maybe they'll be able to pull this deal. Like the only reason they even lucked into Butler was because Philadelphia made the mistake of sticking with Ben Simmons and moving on from Butler, where Philadelphia, we might be talking about them and Embiid entirely differently if Butler was there during the entire time. So a lot of the default settings for these teams, like I would agree with you, Van, like get aggressive, but get aggressive for what?

Because there's nothing else asset-wise that really makes a ton of sense. So they'll probably do what a lot of teams do, trade them, or excuse me, sign them to a contract they don't really like, and then if things aren't good in two years, they hope they can trade him to somebody else.

Yeah, but here's the thing. They don't have to do anything. So the risk of just being like, you know what? We'd love to see how this season plays out before we think about an extension for you.

The risk would be that he takes that personally and starts doing some of the darker Jimmy Butler stuff that we've seen over the years. And that's where we'll see if the heat culture really exists. I just, this is where I've landed watching these

playoffs and watching these young guys and just say, we're going to talk about LeBron in a little bit. We're going to talk about Durant and the sons. These guys, when they hit their mid thirties, I was saying on a pod the other day, like James Harden was awesome in game four. Right. And it's like, he looked great. He's that you become a once a week guy, like James Harden was awesome in game four. Right. And it's like, he looked great. He's that you become a once a week guy, right. When you're in your mid thirties, you can look great once in a week and okay. And the second game and maybe bad in the third game, but you're not going to be able to do it every night. Whereas like we watch Edwards, who's just young and full of energy and athleticism, and he can do it every single

night. Yoke is do it every single night. Jokic is just built to like night out. Even when he has like a shaky game in game one, he's 27, 28 years old. His version of a bad game is like a 30, nine and nine. When you move into the mid thirties with these guys, regular season, harder to sustain a really good team, right? We saw this with the Celtics,

with KG and Pearson, those guys, 2010, 11, 2012. Remember they went like 25 and 25 over the last 50 games. It's just the older legs, it gets harder. So Miami's good. You're a seven seed. You're a six seed. You're an eight seed.

And then you just have to hope for this miraculous switch turn when it gets to April van, which we saw in the bubble and which we saw last year, but maybe last year was just a fluke because Giannis got hurt. And then Butler had these crazy games. I don't know if you can

bank on that ever happening again. Yeah, I think that gun is out of bullets. That's the thing, right? I think that that gun is out of bullets. Drake's gun or Miami's gun? Wow. Wow. Bill. What? Hip hop Simmons already?

Okay. Team Kendrick right here. Wow. That's going to change the whole beef. Drake's up now. But look, I think that gun is out of bullets. I think that gun is out of bullets. I think they have such a belief in their culture,

such a belief in their scheme, such a belief in what it is that they do, that I think they believe we can limp into the playoffs and then we can be hyper-competitive throughout these playoffs. And Jimmy Butler embodies that to such a degree. He embodies that I'm not going to be pushed around. The I have these types of games

where you look at him and you go, oh my God, is that guy one of the five best players in the league? And if we can get that out of him for a two-week stretch, can we beat everyone? Yeah, I get it. They've overachieved. The question is, once again, like I said, what's the bar? If the bar is for them to be a team that is going to be a championship level team, they're not going to be able to do it with this roster and they're not going to be able to do it giving him that much money. There's not a supplemental player that they can bring in or they're going to bring in another guy. They're going to Phoenix Suns it out. Like that didn't work over there. I don't think it's going to work

in Miami either. We're so low. Let's say we're all GMs. You're working for Ishbia. You're the son's GM. Van is the Lakers GM and I'm Pat Riley. And we're all on the phone just kind of like, hey, just for fun. Butler, LeBron, sign and trade, Durant, three-way. Let's just talk it out for shits and giggles. What does it look like? I'm running Phoenix. I've already hung up Phoenix you're out you don't want any part of either guy oh I mean I know nobody likes to rant this week

and everybody looks at the Phoenix roster which certainly has its challenges you think I want to bring on LeBron circus no I would want Butler if I'm the sense I'd rather have you would trade so you would trade to rant for Butler right, I would want Butler if I'm the sense. I'd rather have you would trade. So you would trade Durant for Butler right now. I would not. I'm saying we're on the phone for shits and giggles. Durant has the most value. So whoever is, is trading for Durant is throwing extra stuff in

there. But I'm just saying as the premise of those three guys, it would be LeBron going to Miami would be part of this. Right. Which I don't think Pat Riley would ever, I think Pat Riley's out and would never, I think he's just would cut LeBron off and never want him back. But I was just trying to think of the, like it's three teams that kind of need to shake something up. And it's all players who have had real success this decade who probably all need a change of scenery.

But I think you're right i think it's phoenix rossilla's making a face i just don't like butler will be 35 next year 36 hasn't played played a ton really i thought he turned now he's 35 now um now he turns 35 in september 35 okay all right all right butler's not an easy hang but when he's your only option yeah you make it work i don't know if durant's a blast all the time and lebron with whatever circus that is towards the end is like it's gonna have its own challenges so i would just be like i'll just i'll just stay in the Durant business. So what does a Butler trade look like? So the other option would be Philadelphia,

where you're trading Butler into their cap space. Right. For what though? Yeah. You're just getting like a giant trade exception and picks. And it's one of those weird heat things where it's like, they're going to trade Jimmy Butler or the Sixers and then somehow get Paul George. And you're like, what? And then all of a sudden, Paul George is on the Miami Heat. It's one of those. Because that's what happened in 2019 when they got Butler.

It's like, yeah, Jimmy Butler wants to play in Philly. They were like, well, cool. They don't have cap space. And then they're like, yeah, we've just traded Hassan Whiteside to Portland. And now we have cap space and we have Jimmy Butler. So I don't rule them out for weird shit like that. They've only bottomed out twice. And they're like, yeah, we've just traded Hassan Whiteside to Portland. And now we have Capspace and we have Jimmy Butler. So I don't rule them out for weird shit like that. They've only bottomed out twice in the last 20 years.

Miami. Yeah. And they were brief bottoms. Very brief. That's Kendrick's next diss track. Brief bottoms. To be playing the club on Tuesday night. They just, they don't really, you know, they had the 25-win season before Wade,

and then they had the 15-win season, and that's when they missed out on Derrick Rose. There was some mid-2010s Dragic-era stuff where they were kind of both not relevant, but also doing better than we expected. They're making the playoffs almost every year, but I don't know if they can reset it enough, and then I don't know about the rest of it.

I like Hawkins. I think Jovich is going to be really good. I can't wait to see Miami media stuff. Well, Bam to me is like an untouchable because nobody would ever – He's the only untouchable. Right. He's the guy. He's the linchpin, the anchor of the whole program right now, yeah.

But you still need a one. Bam's never going to be your one as an offensive player, even though we all love him. But I think the hero awakening happened in this playoff series where he's probably best suited as a sixth man. I don't want to hear from another sideline reporter talking about his fucking legacy. I did this random touch on my pod this past week.

You're a really nice offensive player, probably even better than sometimes you even realize because shot creation and all that stuff. He is so bad defensively. He is so bad defensively. To think that he's the main piece going back to another team and are like, cool, now heroes are starting point guard. You've immediately limited who you are.

In the mid-2000s, he'd be Jamal Crawford. But he has main piece confidence, though. I think he has a different mentality than Jamal Crawford or even Lou Will or any of those guys who knew that they were professional scorers and just came in to heat it up. After a while, they accepted those roles to a degree to where they almost carved out careers

that are oddly great to where you start looking at those guys and going, wow, man, look at all that they achieved. I don't think Tyler Hero has that type of mentality. In any gym you put him in, I think he's one of the best five. And I think if you relegate him to the six-man role and don't look at him as a guy that you can build around going forward, you're going to have problems with him. I like main piece confidence. Do you think Charles Holmes has main piece confidence in the ringerverse? He has

the most main piece confidence of any motherfucker that has ever lived before in life. Can you give us your take on heat culture? I don't know if you've ever given it on this podcast. What's your summation of heat culture? Do you believe in it? Are you a subscriber?

Is it now overrated? What is it? I used to think it was fake hustle. That's what I used to think it was. I used to think it was fake hustle, but they beat me into submission. They beat me into submission. They beat me into submission.

They do weird things. Udonis Haslam, after a certain point, actually became the mascot of the team. He would run out and jump off trampolines and dunk the ball at timeouts. He was literally the mascot of the squad. He was the embodiment of heat culture. But they have something down there

that lets them continuously overachieve and they almost run it like an old school nba like you know they have pat riley they almost feel like the 90s nicks yeah how they keep things in house they police themselves they they show it out on the court i guess i believe in it but I don't like it. It's annoying for whatever reason. I believe in it. It's a real thing, but I don't know. It seems like they're kind of up on their high horse, like high horse wins something. Go out and show me that heat culture beyond obviously what happened some time ago, that it can win a championship. And then I feel like you can go around flexing your muscle about it. But right now it's kind of just a slogan. I've been afraid of it forever, as we're still looking to test.

But this was like the horror movie franchise where this season for them was like Halloween 5. It was like Myers is back. It's like, is he? I stopped making fun of it after last year. I'm like, man, I was like alright heat culture jokes they're over we can't say how come they're not using their culture I do think making

shirts was lame that was the turning point for you the shirts? jerseys instead of the heat it just said culture I was like okay well I still want to make fun of it but I can't after last year's finals appearance but the shirts I mean imagine imagine being a kid and it's like hey can I get a jersey for Christmas you Christmas? You're like, oh, I'm going to get a BAM jersey.

I'm going to get a Jovich jersey. I'm going to get a Hot Cats jersey. No, you get a culture jersey. You're like, ugh. Tough one. The Miami people believe in it. I don't know what their move is with Butler, but I will say this. I do not think they should extend him. Like, hey man, we're paying you a hundred million dollars for the next two years to play basketball and you played two-thirds of the season this year. We're going to be eligible for NBA and then you got hurt in the playoffs. You're in your mid-30s.

Can you show it to us for a year would be my strategy. But I don't think he's going to like that at all. Yeah, right. I mean, it's like, hey, do we want to pay this guy? No, we don't. But he might be the worst employee ever. Okay, reward him. Yeah. Phoenix, what do you do,, do we want to pay this guy? No, we don't. But he might be the worst employee ever. Okay, reward him. Yeah. Phoenix, what do you do, man?

Oh, man. Oh, they're an all-man team for you already? Yeah, like I asked you, have you passed the kidney stone? You're, oh, man. Is Phoenix an all-man team? Phoenix is one of the biggest all-man teams in the whole goddamn league. They're paying Bradley Bill an insane amount of money, and he's the real albatross there, right?

Yes, he is. They have issues from the top to the bottom. It doesn't really feel like they have, obviously they have no identity. Paying those three guys that much money and for them not to be able to figure it out i mean i don't know what you do i mean obviously you build around devin booker going forward i mean he's the young star in his in his prime but you need somebody to facilitate you need to bring a point guard in you need there's there's power struggles between coaching

and management and ownership about what the team is supposed to look like. They have no identity. They're just the latest team that tried to build a zombie super team and it didn't work. Phoenix is definitely an old man. Who are you more worried about, Phoenix or the University of Colorado? Oh, wow. I'm much more worried about Deion and them. Don't get me started. You know what? Get him started. Get started. Get me started on Deion. This is the thing in Colorado right now, guys. It's going terribly. And I love everybody. I love everyone. Okay? Let me make sure that I say this.

He loves everybody. Bill, Bill loves it when I qualify this because I have to actually talk to people and say hello to them and stuff. But what's happening in Colorado right now is to me, one of the more embarrassing situations that I've seen in any sports organization ever. Like they don't have an identity. They don't have any institutional

control. Their coach is on Twitter going at it. I love Deion Sanders so much, but it doesn't seem as if Deion Sanders knows what it takes to be a college football coach at that level. He's learning on a job to such a degree. He's engaging in Twitter beefs against college kids. They're losing recruits to the transfer portal left and right. No one really knows what they're building around or what they're doing. Are they an offensive team? Are they a defensive team? They're certainly not a defensive team. Are they

explosive? Are they methodical? It's all kind of like an empty swag burger. Like a swag burger with no meat, no cheese, no nothing on that, no protein. It's just all condiments. An empty swag burger, like a swag burger with no meat, no cheese, no nothing on that. No protein. It's just all condiments. An empty swag burger. An empty swag burger,

swag burger, no meat. It's like you dress it up and you boom, there's nothing in the middle of it. It's like what cousin Eddie made in vacation. Yeah, exactly. There's no meat.

They can't afford the meat right now. And so to me, I'm actually, it's getting to the point to where, you know, it's a little embarrassing for what's going on at Colorado. And if they limp into another four and eight season, it's going to be embarrassing in a big way. He was on 60 Minutes. He was on the cover of Time Magazine. They came in last place in their conference. It was a fun little story when they had the comeback against Colorado State. They beat TCU, and people framed it as they beat the defending national champ co-runner-up when TCU was a completely different team. So part of me was rooting it for it to work, and then it became very political that if you didn't like Deion, it was for a specific reason,

and then if you did like Deion, it was for a specific reason. And then if you did like Dion, it was for a different reason. And it just, I don't know, man, it just got kind of like baked into this big stew when I think that it's the same for anybody. If you get a ton of attention and the team ends up stinking, people resent the attention you got. And that's all I think it is. I liked it as it was happening because I thought it was fun. College football was just completely imploding. And then this guy was coming in as almost the catalyst for some of that implosion, the way he was approaching building the program. I was like, I'm in. segment, Van, when we were talking about where he'll go next? That was like the height of the Dion mania.

But now it's like, I almost feel like the way it's playing out, he's probably just on TV in a year. Well, I mean, when you start to really get into it, that's when I knew it wasn't going to work. When you start to like, when I started to see you and you're into college football now and that's kind of the thing, that's when I was like,

this is gonna crash and burn. This is bad. There's no way. We don't want casual Bill involved in our college football every Saturday. That's when I started to identify, oh, this is the college football fan

that's actually all over Colorado. You know what I mean? This is what I'll say. There is a unique opportunity here, though. The unique opportunity for Deion Sanders in Colorado is that the expectations are right back where they were at the beginning of last season. So they're in the Big 12 now.

Being in the Big 12, a lot of people think that because there's no marquee team in the Big 12 right now that they're going to have a pushover there. No, you're going to deal with a lot of teams that have a lot of program stability in terms of the way they turn out their athletes. You're not going to be dealing with a whole bunch of big time five stars. But I was listening to Josh Payne talk about this and he was saying is you're going to deal with a bunch of teams that are manufacturing starters. So three years you get a starter and those people know how to play

football. But still, though, the talent gap between them and some of the other teams is not going to be there. So if they peel off a couple of victories, particularly early in the season, we're going to go right back to Colorado is back. That's not the problem. That's not the problem. That's not the question. The question is through a recruiting class, through a culture. What's the culture in Colorado right now? Through a recruiting class, through a culture, and through momentum,

can you build something that's sustainable? And it just seems like there's a lot of chaos over there right now. I love Deion Sanders for all the reasons I should love Deion Sanders, to some of those reasons Rusillo was talking about. I do. But I also love college football, and I can't turn a blind eye to the fact that the way you're doing, the way you do what they're trying to do, uh, there, it just doesn't work. You can't build a line through transfer portal. You can supplement through transfer portal. Can't build a whole program through it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So we're still aware as Dion in 2026. Uh, if they're, if he still wants to be there and they're better than they were last year they'd

probably be like look this is probably about as good as we can do for a program that was one of the worst programs in college football for a long time i don't know what the new big 12 is going to look like it could seem more wide open but i was rooting for him because i was glad that a program did something this outside of the box. Like you screw up with this offensive coordinator who's on a seventh team all the time. You know what I mean? Like there's plenty of failures to go with the normal model. So try the different model. That's why I was so excited for Antonio Pierce. You know, even though the Jeff Saturday thing didn't work, I wanted it to work for Antonio Pierce and I was thrilled. And I know it's a little different

with Dion. So I was rooting for it. But he just can't help himself sometimes. And I think when you're going to talk that much shit and asking people in the media, hey, do you believe? Do you believe? And then it's like, well, it's not my fucking job to believe. I'm just here to cover the game. And then they stink.

You know, we don't, we love attention in college football. We love the energy. We love the luncheons and the boosters and everybody get really excited, but it's like, all right, go out, go out and tackle somebody every Saturday and play some defense. But it was only one year in. So we'll see what happens. But it was a wave of, if you're not on board, you're a hater. And it's like, I don't, I don't think I'm a hater.

I'd be surprised if you were going to end up being that good. And then when you looked at the portal grade, I was like, maybe they are going to be this good as they started the season. Then you realize they couldn't play any defense and the offense fell apart. All these things went south. And look, if you want to find guys to transfer out that are going to shit talk the previous program, get in line you know the athletic did that huge piece on all these guys and where they are now and some of the stories were sad but it's also kind of the way college football goes you can find recruits from everywhere else that have gone oh this new guy came in and i left and i went through all this and i hate those guys and here's my quote like you can find all that kind of stuff. Like Dan's got Joe Burrow. Yeah, but look, there were guys MF and Saban in that 0-17 being like,

this guy coming in here telling me you're going to change it all over. So I hope it works out for him, but I think the lines have been drawn where there are going to be some that absolutely just revel if he fails again. And then I would think if they get off to a good start, maybe some people will chill about what it actually means. Do you know what I really hope, though? Last thing I'll say. What I hope is that for Colorado,

what I hope, and for Deion Sanders, is that everything that he and the program purports to be, that they really mean it. Because I know a lot of people, take my mother, for example. And this is actually a very important thing to say culturally for someone like my mom. When my mom thinks about Deion Sanders, my mother thinks not about football.

She thinks about God and she thinks about family because that's what Deion Sanders tells you. He says God, he says family. And those are beautiful, amazing things, especially when you're going to send your son somewhere. And so when she watches the games and she's all into it and the games aren't going the way that they're going

and she sees some certain things and the games aren't going the way that they they're going and she sees some certain things it it starts to be like she actually was emotionally let down by how colorado's season ended because it didn't seem like it was about what she thought it was about the more she got into it and she's reading these athletic articles and she's sending stuff to me she's like well he's supposed to be a daddy and a father figure to these young men. And it's supposed to be about more than that. Like, how could they feel abandoned by him? And she doesn't quite get the business of college football and how it's supposed to

go or everything Ryan's saying is true. But you want to believe in what the standard there is supposed to be. And as hard as this is, the field will actually be a referendum on that. It will be because if you're willing to stick it out, if you can stick it out with players and develop them and doing all this, you start to see that on the field. But if it's always firing this guy, quick fix,

pointing the finger at someone, passing the buck on someone, you'll see a staccato, weird, bad season over and over again for them. So if their fundamentals are real, they'll have success. But no one can know right now if they are or not. It also could be a mess too, right?

Like if you want to believe the bad stuff, you could be like, it's a TV show, it's a reality show. Sure. It's all about dion it's not really about the kids um and this is all bullshit and it's all hype and all these things like you hear enough of it but then again you're like all right is that criticism specific to him or whatever like i don't i don't know but there's a lot of evidence that that might be true and then

three years later we're going remember that right yeah well it's like when i don't know remember when paul westhead coached the nuggets in the early 90s and he tried that crazy offensive style and he just got torched and then that was it then a few years later it's like remember that paul westhead thing it's dion's not going to be like that with colorado right it won't be that bad no i mean yeah like look i mean they did go like what do they have one of their last nine they won one game in their last nine last year right but the thing that was bothersome about that is anyone who had watched college football could see that coming yeah you know what i mean anybody who had watched the sport could see that coming. Even, you know, they win a huge double overtime game, huge in terms of how it was ballyhooed,

huge double overtime game against Colorado State. I know it's a rivalry game, but I'm like, no, if these guys are a top 20, top 15 team, probably shouldn't have went to double OT in Boulder against a team that's not going to have very many guys hear their names called when the draft comes. So you knew that they were going to struggle when they got to conference plate, but they didn't just struggle. They completely got pulled apart at the seams. There was infighting. There was coaching changes. There was backbiting.

There was chirping out of the locker room. The wheels completely fell off. Not even just good losses, just it looked bad. No adjustments being made the whole nine. And you started to ask the question is, love Deion, love his family, love everybody over there. But the question starts to be, like, what are we really doing? And also, something else I'll say before. Another thing is, the sycophantic

way in which he's covered is not helping Colorado it's not like I watch Undisputed and it doesn't matter what the fuck happens you watch Undisputed the clips come up on YouTube where you were sick that day

Jesus what I'm just saying. Did you watch the episode when it asked if Colorado was Black America's team? Where you were like, I have to take this one. Yeah, that's what wrote me in. So I watched the show.

I gotta press record. That's what got me in there. But I watched it and I loved those. Y'all see? Now when Keyshawn come out and start dissing, Bill, you gonna want to smoke? But what I'm saying is I watch it and no one's keeping it real.

Like everybody's like, it's like Colorado lost 59 to 7 last night. And you hear Skip Bayless go, but golly, that's 7 points. Jesus Christ, were those kids out there hustling. You can tell that he's a leader of men out there. In the future, they're going to be able to cut that margin to

14. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Just keep it real. This shit not going well. That'll light a fire under them to maybe change some shit up. I can't do the thing where I'm tepid in my criticism of Dion anymore. I can't do it for cultural reasons or any other reasons, I can't.

We have to take a break because we have a whole LeBron conversation to have. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like Potash to support sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building one of the world's most sustainable potash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced.

This is what BHP has committed to Canada. The future is clear. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. We did a 15-minute Dion Colorado sidetrack, but now we're back on track with what do you do? And LeBron and the Lakers is the next one. This is the toughest what do you do?

Because we already know for a fact that if LeBron and Davis are your two $50 million players, you're not going to compete for an NBA title with that. So, Russo, the first question is, do the Lakers care? Do they actually think they could win a title or compete for a title? In the league, the way it's going, with two different younger generations of players coming and getting better and ascending and being awesome, and you're just going to be a year older with LeBron next year.

You got an incredible health season from Davis and none of it mattered and you got bounced in five. What would make you think that there's a magic fix would be my first question. And then the second one is, do you care because you just want to sell out the Staples Center slash crypto? I think having LeBron around and playing as well as he did this past year

being relevant is a much better option than being irrelevant and feeling like you're going to have to get in front of it. They should get in front of it. They should say, okay, we need to pivot off of this. We can't have it be, it's going to be a circus, I think, even more and more

with him at the end. So wait, if we don't make a trade next trade deadline, like you're going to do the same stuff, the passive aggressive stuff that he loves to do. I think he's going to get like more insufferable with it as he ages. So I don't know that I'd really want to sign up for that. I'd love to go to him and be like, hey, can we not pay you the 160? Is there any way that three years from now, there's not a number that destroys us? Even though you've done what feels like is impossible for a player at your age, can we not have three years from now be this massive cap number that maybe destroys everything that we're trying to do? If he's not willing to play well with that, you probably still resign him. I don't know if that means that his son also has to be drafted. There's just a lot of stuff that I don't know if that means that his son also has to be drafted. There's just a lot of stuff that I don't know that I'd want to do.

But being in L.A. and being relevant in the way front offices would be like, hey, a bounce here, a bounce there. We got a bad matchup in the first round and all this stuff. At least we know 24-25. You can sell the illusion of hope. Yeah, we have a pretty good team. We'll have a better coach and a tweak here and a tweak there. We're not playing reddish and we're not doing Jackson Hayes things and we get better depth there.

You know that's what teams are going to end up doing with every one of these scenarios. We were all here in the mid-2010s when they were not relevant. The mid-2010s, like when that 2014 season, 15, 16, they were rough. And everyone's like, the Clippers are going to take over. It's going to be the Clippers' time. It didn't even come close to happening. And people still went to Laker games. So in some ways, it's like Fenway Park and the Red Sox, where they're like, hey, our team sucks now. And people are like, cool, I still like going and drinking beer

and sitting in the stands. Then does it matter if the Lakers aren't relevant from a competitive standpoint? I don't think it does. See, I actually thought you were going somewhere else. See, I think those years are actually. See, I was actually thought you were going somewhere else. See, I think those years are actually the worst nightmares of Lakers fans. I think we think that when the Lakers fans think about the Lakers that they're thinking about recently that they're thinking about Magic Johnson and Shaq and

Kobe, they're really thinking about Robert Socrates. They're thinking about those big shot years. They're thinking about those lost years. They're thinking of those lost years. Those lost years and how they're thinking about Jody Meeks, Andrew Gowlock, all of those guys. They're thinking about

those years. And if you push them, they'd rather be right where they are right now between an 8 and a 6 seed with LeBron James and Anthony Davis. They would really rather have something dramatic. And the illusion of hope. Oh, we might get to John Tamering. Oh, Jimmy Butler might come.

Trey, like Trey Young, whatever it is. But that's the thing. Now they're better presented. Sorry to jump you in, but like, as we're talking all this out, we should have led with, there's still a really good opportunity with the assets now to make some kind of impactful trade where it's like, why would we even think of breaking this up?

We added a real third piece beyond D'Angelo Russell, who, again, was terrific in the second half of the season. So go ahead. And awful in the playoffs. Awful in the playoffs. And the coach got blamed for everything somehow, which we haven't talked about. Yeah, which I'll get to that.

But there at least has to be a circus to go to. playing for everything somehow, which we haven't talked about. Yeah, which I'll get to that. But like, there at least has to be a circus to go to. There has to be a circus that happens. There has to be a circus. It feeds everything. It feeds the LA media machine. It feeds what's happening on ESPN radio. It feeds all of that. When there's nothing to talk about with the Lakers,

we're talking about 14, 15, 20 wins. The city is down too much. They don't want to go back to that. And I think that part of what the management there is going to do is to make sure that those days don't come around again. So you're going to pay LeBron. You're going to hope that Anthony Davis, who had a fantastic season, can stay upright.

And you're going to build around him until he limps off the court. That's what I think they're going to do. I went back and read about LeBron's first Laker season, which I think has been remembered a different way than what actually happened. Huh? No. Cause I was, I want to do a little research for the pod. I was trying to figure out all the times the trade deadline fucked up their team because it's been a recurring theme with the Lakers. And it starts with 2019, his first year. They were actually pretty good for the first part of that year. They beat Golden State on Christmas, they had a winning record. He got hurt and he missed like a month. And right around late January, as he's coming back, that was when Anthony Davis

made the trade request to New Orleans. And that's when all the stuff started coming out about, Rich Paul is telling these teams, like Boston, whoever, if you trade for him, he's leaving in a year. It was basically like, he's going to the Lakers, so we can either do this now or we can do this later. And if you remember, and you can go back and read all the articles, the team imploded after that. Because leading up to the trade deadline, everyone thought they're

going to be traded. It came very close to being a trade. Then it didn't happen. And then it was the wreckage of the non-trade and the team fell apart. LeBron played post trade deadline. He played the rest of that season. He wasn't like, oh, he got injured and he didn't come back. He was playing. He was out there with R, he got injured and he didn't come back. He was playing. He was out there with Rondo and Kyle Kuzma and Caldwell Pope and Lonzo Ball, all those dudes. But the trade deadline murdered the team. And that's been, like, when I think about LeBron big picture,

I'm always surprised that after all these years that he's been the best guy on a team and one of the most famous athletes in the world, that doesn't really see the cause and effect of stuff. Right. Like if, if you're, if you're just every year, you're the trade rumor candidate or one of the two or one of the three, and then it's going to affect how you play. And if you think, oh, well, I'm dispensable, I could be out of there. I just think this, when you talk about a circus fan, that's the part I don't see getting better for the other guys. How do you win if you're on this team? No, I told you before the biggest criticism of LeBron's legacy isn't any disappearing acts in

the fourth quarter. Isn't it? Is that there's absolutely zero stability to me and playing with him or being a part around with him or being around him. Like you're constantly, if you're with some of these other guys, these true alpha number ones that we've seen, there's coaching stability there. They make coaches into legends. You know what I mean?

You get four, five, six, seven, eight years or run of them. With LeBron, doesn't matter what it is, how good he is. As a coach, you're always looking over your shoulder. As a player, you're always looking over your shoulder because he is so good that there's no ownership that gets thrown on him for anything. It must be the coach.

It must be the supporting cast. So if you come into that, if you opt into that, that's going to be a part of your existence. If you look at like, I just hate playing the Nuggets because I hate watching KCP just fucking succeed. Like, I just, I hate

watching, like, you watch Malik Monk, you watch guys that have come there and didn't left. Malik Monk was, yeah, well, I mean, Caruso, that was an abomination losing Caruso. It was like a terrible situation for us. But anyway, I won't drone on, but I'll say like, for Le Caruso, that was an abomination losing Caruso. It was like a terrible situation for us. But anyway, I won't drone on, but I'll say like for LeBron, that's a part of it. He is such a gigantic presence.

And he is completely incapable from the fan base, sometimes from himself and from management of taking any sort of responsibility for when things go wrong, that it will fall on somebody else and it'll be either the coach or the supporting cast that didn't get it done so that he could go on and succeed. Yeah, Rosillo, like if we left that Game 5 Nuggets series and LeBron gives an interview after and he goes, you know what? We were really close to that team and I think we can beat that team and I actually like the nucleus we have and I want them to bring back Darvin Ham. And you know what? We were really close to that team. And I think we can beat that team.

And I actually like the nucleus we have. And I want them to bring back Darvin Ham. And you know what? I missed a wide open three that could have won game five. And that's on me. But I think these guys deserve a chance. I think we deserve a chance to run it back. Everyone had been like,

whoa, where'd that come from? It's just the moment the series is over, it's like, oh, here comes Darvin Ham. And then it's 50-50 whether Palenka gets blamed too. And then you know D'Lo's either out or in a trade, and it's just like the same rinse-lather-repeat cycle.

And I don't know. I just don't think it works anymore. I think it works when you're the best player in the world, but he's not anymore. Yeah, that's the thing, is the partnership was well, I don't see, I think that's always been the thing is he's never really been a partner. He's been like a subcontractor. And when the results got you an NBA finals appearance, you're like, I don't care. I don't care if this guy's not a W2. Like, what do I care? But as it goes further and you go,

so, so what do we have to do here? We got to give you 160 million. We got to draft your son. We got to pick out another coach. Then we got to trade all of our future picks that we're allowed to trade for probably a B minus guy. But I think that fans original point,

they went six years without sniffing the playoffs. This is probably still a better option than what your assets are. Like that's, that's just always, whenever I look at these teams, they're okay. But these guys will spend hours and hours and hours on all these hypothetical things.

Would you take this guy for that guy? You know, that's like front office. Just sit around constantly being like, do you think this guy's better than this guy? Who would you rather have now? Who would you rather have in three years? They do it with like everybody in the league nonstop.

It's like the number one. Sounds like the podcast. I know. I know. This is great. I want to be in one of those offices. But there's just so many times where you go like, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. And with LeBron, I wouldn't

want to give him the third year on all this stuff. I'd love for it to be a team option. He's probably not going to agree to that unless it's less money and it's a player option for the third year on all this stuff i'd love for it to be a team option he's not he's probably not going to agree to that unless it's less money and it's a it's a player option for the third i don't i don't know but it's probably better and also what kind of coach or van who doesn't matter i did a joke on youtube about i thought that lebron should be the player coach i thought that was a great move for right it's also illegal you can't do it in the collective bargaining agreement but it's a great move for, right? It's also illegal. You can't do it in the collective bargaining agreement,

but it's a great move for so many reasons. One of which was, it would be if they somehow really did well with him as the player coach, little feather in the cap and the, in the MJ argument, right? MJ never coached himself. Russell won two titles coaching himself. This could be like, I think for LeBron, but like they mentioned some of the names, like, oh, you could see this guy. Maybe it's JJ Redick.

It's like JJ would have to be a lunatic to take the Lakers job. I can't imagine why he would do that. You don't think JJ would take the job in a second? How much money? I mean, is it like a crazy amount of money? They could have wine and talk about, you know, Ram screens. I think he's set up to fail with that job because he's got the pre-existing relationship with LeBron.

How are you going to coach him at that point? And also, who am I coaching? What's my style going to be? Like, who is the right coach for this team? I have no idea at this point. Priscilla, who's the right coach

for them? How many coaches could actually take that Lakers roster and do well? I thought Vogel did a good job in the bubble. Within a year, he was fucking out.

You know, Darvin Ham, I didn't think, I didn't think he was a very good coach. I don't think he was better or worse than 20 guys I watched during the season. He did some weird shit. I thought some of his rotations were weird. End of the games, I wouldn't say he was Mr. Adjustment, but I don't think he's the reason they underachieved.

I thought they properly achieved. I found the Vogel one really frustrating because it was like as soon as things started going south, started hearing the, well, you know, we're starting to learn Frank isn't that great of a coach. You're like, all right. You win the title. Really?

And then it's like, okay, now we get Darvin Hamm in here. So it's not even about what I thought about ham this year because i think there's probably a lot of stuff you could point to with his rotations the timeline of like hey you tried this guy too much you went with this guy too long but it's also something to be said of like the front office remember when palinka signs all of these recognizable names but there's a reason why jackson hayes is on a minimum there's a reason why cam reddish is available again christian when there's right christian would of all people it's like hey he's on his eighth team now but no he's going to be awesome here and when you have that many guys that all think they're supposed to play but they're all kind of minimum guys

people were saying the lakers won the offseason when it's like, well, they just added a bunch of people that everybody knows who they are. I liked when they got Vincent and Prince. I was like, oh, these are two guys that could play in a playoff series. And then they just kept adding people. And then by the time they got to Christian Wood, I'm like, what is it? 20 guys on the team?

Vincent was never healthy, so that's unfortunate. And they bench Reeves, who's their third best player. They yanked him around for two months. And then the Rui thing. So I do think there's things you could point to for him. I just had an issue of when all of a sudden overnight, Vogel was bad and Ham was the solution.

I don't think there's anybody in a front office that would be like, we think Ham today is a better head coach than Frank Vogel is. For them to think that a new coach is going to push them in a much better direction, I think is insane. I do too. I think it's insane. I think once again, though, when you look at it, if you just, if you, obviously

we watch the game, so we see the deficiency that Darvin Ham has, but if you just took a step back and looked at it on paper, he went to the West finals in his first year. And then they made the playoffs in the second year. You'd say, Hey, that's a guy that maybe we should give a little bit of rope to.

So to see whether or not he knows what it is he's doing. But no, the reality is as soon as it starts going bad, as soon as a narrative builds in a town that is expert at creating narratives it's a movie town so they create the narrative i'm not saying that darvin ham was he was i was very frustrated with him but what i'm saying is that's the type of situation that the coach is going to walk into he's going to walk into a um um a spot where your star player is in a lot of ways infallible to where the roster is built to suit that player and to where when everything goes wrong is going to be your fault and what you're

not doing right and how you're not getting it right. So as far as a coach that can handle that, the only reason why I joke about the JJ thing is because you'd almost need someone that didn't have much that, that had a lot of tread on the tires. You need somebody that was, was, was invigorated enough by the opportunity to take some shit. Well, this was the case for Steve Nash in Brooklyn though.

I mean, that's that part where it's made. I, I just like, I don't think people realize both in real life and in business and pick an industry, but especially in sports, the whole concept of job preservation. And like you look at like an NBA GM who's with the owner all the time and talking to the owner all the time, right? And things aren't going as well as you thought. You spent a lot of money in this team,

you had all these trades and signings and it's just not going as great. And you're trying to keep your job. What do you start doing the moment things aren't going that great? Like, I don't know what the fuck Cam's doing. Oh yeah. Oh my God. The rotations. It's like, you know, I don't want to throw him under the bus genie, but God, I don't know what he's doing with Rui. And you're just, you're just planting the seeds left and right. Then you're talking to pick a Lakers reporter. Hey, what's going on at the Lakers? What's happening there? It's like, we're off the record, right? I mean, Ham's just been, and you're just, you're just planting seeds all over the place because then Ham's the fall guy for if this goes badly, because Ham's now gone. Vogel's gone. But Polinka's been there the whole time

for six years. And basically did the AD trade. The Reeves thing was great. But I think he made some real mistakes in the last year. The biggest one, Rosillo, for me is if you know you have an older team, now that we know what Jaquez is

and that he was a finished product, why would you take a 19-year-old rookie point guard who's clearly just a trade asset and that's it, over product why would you take a 19 year old rookie point guard who's clearly just a trade asset and that's it over somebody who could have actually helped you because hawk has didn't shoot it well enough for three of the four years he was at ucla that's why he lasted well could you have gotten somebody with that pick who could actually play game i don't like the game i don't like the game when somebody goes and it goes that late and then all of a sudden everybody just goes,

oh, this team should have taken him. I'm just talking mindset of what do you want from that pick when your star player is 39 years old? Do you want somebody who's going to be good three years from now or somebody who could help you right away? I get your point. But I mean, if you're sitting there at that pick with Huchefino and you're like, hey, this guy's got a lot of size. He's a combo guard. It's kind of what's prioritized. Like, you know, there's a pretty good chance whoever werafted is going to play anyway. Everybody wants to get mad at everybody for not taking Hawkins, and Hawkins immediately

you're like, okay, Miami did it again. They figured it out. When they don't even care about their draft picks historically, Hawkins didn't shoot well enough. And Pajemski was going to be a tough sell for different front offices because they were like, wait, 6'5"? What's the deal with this guy? Is this real? All right, explain Christian Wood then.

Everybody falls for Christian Wood. Christian Wood, everybody has to have Christian Wood at some point. It's like Winona Ryder in the 90s. It's like, I'm going to be different. It's got to happen. Winona took me home last night, and this is serious. Yeah. Go ahead.

Go ahead. No, he's a pro- pro typical player to fall in love with you put him in in 2k and then like you run him up and he's a pro he looks he sells the story every single game i'm like oh my god christian wood's gonna figure it out for the lakers and he just he's christian wood on a bad place let's see he's a he's a everybody falls in love with him he looks like he's got everything he needs to be able to score and do the whole nine, and then it just kind of doesn't happen. Whatever that extra thing is, he doesn't have it.

A scout once told me, no team has been upset when he left. It's a good one. And my favorite thing with Christian Wood is when he's on the next new team and he hits a bunch of threes, then the local beat guy starts writing about, like, look at these numbers, look at his board, look at his wind shares, look at his spacing, and look at all these different things. It's like, yeah, okay, cool. Got it.

Awesome. I don't know what the fix is. And I think. It's not a coach. The coach isn't going to change any of this. It certainly seems like no. There is no fix. But the fix could be raising their ceiling, doing something here.

They're probably going to package all the picks up. If they do the LeBron signing, which they're probably going to do, because I do think he wants to go here, despite the flirtation with the other places, unless he decides he's just going to play for less money, try to get a fifth ring. But I think he really wants to be in LA still. There's a lot of stuff that those guys are doing.

There's a whole reason for coming out here in the first place. And, you know, if they're going to do that, then it probably means they're also going to trade those picks. And maybe they trade their picks and it gets worked in a way with Clutch's power where all of a sudden it's like, holy shit, like they got that guy. Like they got the advantage because they talked one of the players that they have a great relationship into the same way that AD ended up with the Lakers. Like maybe there's this next piece that we're not even thinking about

that makes the Lakers like, hey, the LeBron investment thing, just stay with it because that's a hell of a lot better. Maybe fighting for best case scenario, five or six seed in a stacked West. That's better than the unknown of getting aggressive with overhauling it and moving on from him.

That's the fix. The fix is a narrative change. The fix is not Lakers championship or bus team. The fix is Lakers. Are we Sacramento? Like that's like that. That's the fix. The fix is a new,

the fix is the Lakers come out and have fun at crypto. And it's LeBron. That's the fix. The fix is a change in what you think. Because it's like you look at Denver and you look at Oklahoma City and you look at, it's not going to happen. It's over. Denver, OKC, Minnesota, and Boston

with young, deep, awesome rosters and star players in their prime whose arrows are pointing up or are at the peak of their powers it's over and it's gonna be about three years that wouldn't be gonna be putting in it is it's so is that could be one year it's gonna take at least three they gotta could be two years. So you're saying the Lakers are basically like Yellowstone season 11. Absolutely. The Lakers are like everything else in LA. A lot of fun. A money grab.

Right. It's like everything else in LA is a lot of fun. But the Lakers are the current state of the MCU. You just hope you get a good one, but you know things aren't going the way you want them to. You know what I mean? So just have fun watching basketball because I think the championship aspirations

of this iteration of the Los Angeles Lakers, I think they're pretty much over. And just marvel at watching LeBron doing what he's doing at his age. But the whole town gets girded up over what could happen when this was essentially a playing team. Well, you know, they don't have their pick

next year because I think New Orleans is going to pass. They have that pick between 24 and 25. Yeah, but that was the thing is once they knew what New Orleans was doing, then they have the freedom. So it wasn't so much of like hey we have they're trading that and they're right right they're not going to be tanking be like you know

what it's a reboot great draft we're trade everybody most of these teams that that we're talking about like they actually can't even tank on top of everything else yeah they figured out they figured out how to uh how to kill tanking by having every team trade five of their next seven first round picks across the board yeah i just there's two things one i don't know why somebody would want to coach this lakers team unless it was just an absurd amount of money there's no other reason that and let's there's no other way out like if you're throwing out the jj reddick, like a lot of athletes, like the Lakers are asking you to be the head coach of the Los Angeles

Lakers. That's a tough thing to say no to. So everything that we just talked about, like all valid stuff, but that moment of like getting off the phone and turning to your wife and being like, I have right now I can be the head coach of the fucking Lakers. There's just a lot of people that...

And I'm going to get fired in two and a half years. By the way... We're moving to LA. The way some of these guys get fired now with the money, you might as well just do it. By the way, how bummed do you think my... I have not talked to him about this. How bummed do you think my

guy Doc is? Because this would have been the job, right? Do TV for a year, slide right into the Lakers, stay in LA. Would have been perfect. Instead, he goes to Milwaukee. Injuries galore.

Did it work out? I don't know. Did not work out. But look, I'll say this. Being the coach of the Lakers, it raises your profile for everything else. Really? Because I'll say this. Being the coach of the Lakers, it raises your profile for everything else. Really? Because I saw Luke Walton on the Cavs bench.

He was like Cavs assistant number four with a sad look on his face. So I don't know. Not positive that's true anymore. But if Luke Walton wanted to go do TV or if he wanted to, if there were other interests that he had,

his time as a Lakers coach would be certainly an asset in that other type of career. I'm not sure. The only thing that success is what breeds. He also had a tough stint up north. So all of that stuff goes into it with Luke's career. You brought up Luke. Dan, can you give us a a sense big picture where lebron stands in the lakers fan base um from a beloved laker standpoint given some of the competition with the big names how do they

feel about him anecdotally when you and you have a bunch of laker fans in your life including uh our guy joey how are they feeling about le LeBron as he heads into his 40s? I can't really speak for them because I think once you put on the purple and gold, a lot of I think the Lakers fans fall in line.

I do still think the specter of Kobe Bryant looms large over LeBron James' legacy in Los Angeles. I think the title is a title. It's NBA players playing against NBA players, but at the same time, it is a bubble title. It is kind of one of those things to where

you'd argue, yeah, LeBron James won a ring in LA, but does it feel like he's achieved something? Right, with no home games in LA. Yeah. No parade in LA, but does it feel like he's achieved something? Right, with no home games in LA. Yeah. No parade in LA. Right. Yeah. So it's like one of those kind of frustrating things. To me, and this is not

me being super pithy or trying to throw out a name because I'm not alleging anything. I think LeBron is as much of a Laker as Alex Rodriguez was a Yankee. Interesting. So

there's a DNA to the culture of these types of historic franchises. I think Rick Fox is more of a Laker than LeBron James is. You know what I mean And I think Rick Fox is more of a Laker than LeBron James is. You know what I mean? I think

there is not you can't fame your way into it. There has to be something genuine about it. And LeBron James to the Lakers, it doesn't feel like very culturally authentic. You know

how he could flip that though? How? He just said, I'm ending my career in the Lakers. I'm not going anywhere. And I want to play here until I can't play anymore. I love it here. I love LA.

And if we wanted a fifth title for me, that would be ideal. But either way, I'm a Laker. This is where I want to retire. I love this franchise he's always kind of left the door open i don't know we'll see and i do think that's part of it you know because you kind of know if if if you're if your best player is one foot out out the door

which i don't think he does but i don't think he has both feet in the door either well when he signed a longer term contract as soon as he left left Cleveland after doing one plus ones all the time, Cleveland was like, seriously, dude, like great. So he was actually more committed to LA than he had been any other place the previous eight years. So, uh, look, living out here and being somebody that's, that's not from here. I've noticed there's Lakers fans that certainly are Kobe fans or Kobe fans that are not Lakers fans. And it's such a large group of like this Laker fandom where they're just kind of insufferable Kobe people. Like here's an example, Denver, LA, the other night, uh, I think I had already watched, I don't know, seven hours after 10 hours the day

before I was like, my man needs to get in the ocean. I need to read about captain cook and I'm going to spend an hour at the beach, even though the Lakers and Nuggets are tipping off right now, I will be able to make it back up a little bit later. I need a break. I need to get out of the house for a little bit. Walk down to the beach. Beautiful day. Kobe jerseys everywhere, and the game's tipping off. All right?

And then that's the guy that wants to argue with you about Kobe being better than LeBron. And I know some people are listening right now being, oh, well, that's because he is. I would disagree. It's unfair for LeBron. The A-Rod comp is great. LeBron's never had anything close to as embarrassing as A-Rod's run at the end of his Yankees tenure, which was just, and I know that's not what you're saying,

so I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm saying Derek Jeter is there, and that's your name. Right, right. But like A-Rod was also better than Derek Jeter. Lakers fans got lebron year 16 so lebron was never going to be as a non-homegrown guy with only one title and nothing really to show for other than the western conference finals last year like you're just never going to be able to do it but somehow these kobe fans look at year 16 on and they're like yeah

my guy kobe was better than him it's like well i don't even know if you're at the you're what you're playing volleyball right now not watching the lakers against the nuggets but you're gonna tell me you're the expert on who lebron was before he showed up to la that stuff to me is like so unfair for the lebron part of it and i think being here that's an awesome point i was at the gym and there was two guys and they're huge lakers fans and they were they were i was like you guys upset they'd just been eliminated and they were like kobe would have never let that happen and i went yeah he might have been swept like seriously guys

are you serious and that's that's how those guys feel and again my opinion is different i get it this is what i'd say though number one i don't think lebron cares that much about where he falls into the lakers lore i think the the move here i don't think he cares at all i don't think he cares yeah so the it's unsolvable first of all the code like you know there's you want to talk about the jordan lebron thing the more decided factions are the kobe lebron yeah that he lost that early there's no way he wins that like co like kobe was at least at able to make us feel like he desperately cared about being a laker and everything that came with being a laker even though he flirted with going other places as well and strong-armed the organization and the whole nine. LeBron's move out here was very calculated.

It was very calculated. So the only thing that would endear him to Lakers fans would just be straight-up dominance. It would just be straight what happens on the court because he didn't come in, like you say, in the middle of his prime. He came in at the end of it. So it was like, okay, for LeBron to become a Laker, he's going to have to put up wins

and championships and do all of that stuff. And the frustrating thing is he kind of did, but it doesn't feel like he did. He is a Laker, but it doesn't feel like he's a Laker. You got him year 16. The season he just had. The Western Conference Finals. Yeah, there was a gap. But you also got a title.

You know how much worse this could have gone? Do you know how bad? And if LeBron doesn't come here, by the way, AD doesn't come here. Right, they couldn't get any free agents anymore. I mean, they did give away all of their picks and assets for like 10 years basically for that. But they got a title.

Was it too much? No, we should revisit that trade. Lonzo, they gave five first round picks. Josh Hart. There was a lot of people in those trades. Lonzo. To be signing on to LeBron in 2018 and get this, step back and have more perspective on what this was, this was a massive success.

There's going to be people going, it's not Kobe. The COVID year took so many basketball victims. I feel the same way with the Clippers. We were headed, remember we were doing podcasts because we had just started picking up again. And it felt like Lakers versus Clippers. Finally, this is happening. And that was probably the best healthiest version of the Clippers that we've had. The Lakers, they're both playing great. They're probably the two best players in the league. And it was just heading that way. And then all of a sudden we're playing a bubble and that's how we decided the season. But I do

feel like that was a piece of this because LeBron was awesome that year, you know, and the team was really good and they were fun to watch. And I think he needed one season where the team was awesome and they win. And then maybe he becomes a Laker in a different way. I think he still has the scoring record helped. But when I go to the games,

I'm always surprised by the Kobe jerseys compared to everybody else it's like it's noticeable but once again I don't know that I guess you could say the Cavs I don't know if LeBron James has almost transcended connection to a team

right he's his own team almost he's his own thing he's transcended that like LeBron James is a Cleveland Cavalier Right. He's probably too big for that. Even the Lakers, who have probably the biggest culture in the NBA. I don't think he's a part of it. I don't think he could be a part of any of those teams' culture. Or maybe he's a little bit a part of all of them and not just encompassed in all of them.

You're right. Okay? You're right. Like, if you wanted the Kobe love, if you wanted all that, then you stay in Cleveland the entire time. But that's not the way he was going to operate. But when I get into whatever disagreements I get with the random person that I see every day, you know, that knows what I do, and they're pissed off about the Lakers, and they're so pissed off about LeBron all the time.

And I'm getting back to my original point being like, do you know how bad this could have been if he didn't come here? Like, do you realize how bad you were doing with free agents? Do we, do we have to go over the history of all this stuff? And he, not even getting meetings, right?

He picked you when you didn't really even have the support plan even in place. And you still got a title out of this. And I had a neighbor who was like, he's no Kobe. And I went, I looked at the person and went, yeah, we agree. He's not.

And the person was kind of like, wait, did we just agree? Or did he kind of just quietly tell me to fuck off? It's certainly a, it's a weird basketball situation in the sense that I can't explain it to anybody who doesn't live here. I would have never understood it. I would have, I would be like,

it's completely ununderstandable. You have to be in it every day and see how beloved Kobe is. And LeBron just has felt like the hired gun for some reason. So then you see stuff like this week and people, you know, this was some of the newspaper coverage about it where people are like, this guy, now there's another fall guy? Like, when is this guy going to have accountability? Now we have to go through this whole dance again.

It's been six years of it. And I think, I don't know. I'm feeling some fatigue, Van. I get it. Let me tell you how much the recognition of Kobe has meant to me in LA. First of all, I've always been a Kobe guy, big time Kobe guy. But when I first moved out here, it was 2006. And they were telling me about this big black versus Mexican thing that was happening in the streets.

Eduardo Navarro? It is in the streets. Okay. Okay. You know, I'm in the streets. It was bad i'm in the streets it was bad snoop ended up making songs about it they had snoop and b-real had to come together and make records to get rid of and so you know i move out to van nuys and i'm living in the communities around a lot of my mexican latino brothers and sisters but i never know how it's gonna go i'm coming from louisiana

i'm not sure i don't know what's gonna happen so you know some of the brothers the mexican brothers out there they look different tattoos and the whole nine and blah blah blah blah blah blah and it's like all in the face and whatever i'm like you know i don't know if they're gonna think i'm with somebody and just going on i remember one specific time i'm walking down sherman way it's like 9 30 10 o'clock at night and i see somebody and this is dude is out of central casting for somebody that's gonna look for the beef this is one of those motherfuckers that's at the table with lonzo and training day you know it's one of those guys one of the shit pusher inners type of and he's walking i'm getting all what's gonna have to happen i'm i'm profiling the

shit out of this motherfucker i think i I'm so woke, but it happens. And so like, as he, as he, as he comes towards me, I see something. This motherfucker has a Kobe jersey. I'm fucking safe.

The love of Kobe transcends all cultural lines, all whatever, everything. When I see him with the Kobe jersey on, I know that there's something there that me and him feel the same about. He walks past me and I go, Black Mamba. He goes, Black fucking Mamba, assay. Walks down the street. We're dope. That's how much Kobe meant to this town. He is, first of all, great story. Second of all, I've been here 22 years. And he is by far the most popular celebrity since I've been here. It's not even close.

I don't even know who's to. I always thought it was a magic town. And Kobe just took it in a really crazy way yeah I mean Kobe has the shoes that definitely speak to a younger generation you know I don't see people kicking LeBron's around as much I mean the Kobe thing when you turn on an NBA game half the players are wearing his shoes I mean I think that's like a remarkable carryover for his legacy, but I couldn't help but think about you, Bill. I couldn't stop thinking about home in Massachusetts where when I walked down to the beach minutes before Lakers playoff game was about to tip and just Kobe jerseys everywhere. And I went, you know what I wouldn't see in the Charles River minutes

before the gardens, I'm about to tip off a bunch of bird jerseys and guys outside going like, yeah, I know I like to sell it, but I'm going to miss tonight's playoff game and get some, get some rowing in. Yeah. I think it's weird.

Cause we've had some distance out of the Kobe thing. I think part of it is just the journey that I was on. Um, just that the peaks and valleys were so severe and at some point you know you see this happen more like in music than in sports really happens in sports where it was like either you were a Kobe fan or you're a Kobe hater and the Kobe fans

kind of coalesced around the love of Kobe right and then it was us against the world it was a little like what happened with the pats was spy gate when uh not spy gate uh deflate gate when the deflate gate happened and it turned into like new england against everybody it was fucking awesome i remember seeing some of your tweets yeah i mean you were a lunatic oh everybody lost their minds i stayed you had a couple i had a couple like i read a couple of them i remember getting ready to do an espPN show and be like,

he thinks nothing happened. He thinks nothing happened. Nothing happened. We have no evidence. But the Kobe thing, when he won those last two titles and got his two non-Shack titles, it was the craziest, happiest I've ever seen in this city. It was all anyone talked about.

Oh, the game seven? Yeah, I was in the middle of it've ever seen in this city. It was all anyone talked about. Oh, the Game 7? Yeah, I was in the middle of it. Unfortunately, I was there. The Game 7 situation is outside of LSU 2003, which nothing will ever top sports-wise. Don't care. It's impossible to top it for me. Nothing will ever top sports-wise LSU 2003 National Championship.

We'll never top it's impossible to top it for me nothing will ever top sports wise lsu 2003 national championship will never top it never be top but the way the city went nuts the one the the magic title was one thing you know that's getting over the hump again but to beat the celtics game seven in staples like. And to survive an almost catastrophic Kobe game for three quarters. That was the other piece of it. You gotta do that. Every single time. Every time. Every single time.

Every single time. Like Bill won't. Every single time. Every single time I bring up that amazing sublime game, Bill must shit on a 6-24 situation. You do it every time. I'm not shitting on the fourth quarter because he was one of the reasons

in the fourth quarter. He started going on the basket. He was rebounding, and he just, you know, the will. But the first three quarters was the reason they were in that mess in the first place. He was bad. He was trying to be the hero of the game. Everyone was screaming on the streets.

The whole city was together. And like, those are the type of moments that you deliver those. And yeah, that's it. The Lakers. And that's the thing. Unless you're Curt Schell.

Then, then, then, then you're set. I remember the first year I moved here in the playoffs. It was that. So It was the 2003 playoffs for my first playoffs. And like around April,

driving around and there were those Laker flags all of a sudden. Like, what the fuck? What? What are these? Why is everybody? And it just like,

all of a sudden, it became like Boston. Because LA is such like a disconnected town. There's all these different teams. But then in the playoffs, you could really feel it. And then Kobe brought that back. I don't know.

There's just something different about LeBron. I don't think it's his fault. It's just the way it is. It's the DNA thing you mentioned. There's no way if it were reversed, if LeBron were drafted out of high school, won three championships with another guy, then got his two solo ones.

And then he was no, right. Yeah. And if cope, like no one would be making that argument, but there's, well, I think we've covered this.

Yeah, we have. I can't imagine any other angle that we haven't touched on yet. So, well, we're going to go in late. Then thanks for joining us. No problem.

Ryan Rosillo. It was fun to spend three hours. You talking basketball, going to go. Ben Latham, thanks for joining us. No problem. Ryan Russillo, it was fun to spend three hours of you talking basketball. A lot to discuss. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as well. I will see you in this podcast on Tuesday. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside I'm a person never on

I don't have a few years