The Bill Simmons Podcast - Part 3: The NBA’s Merry-Go-Round Era With Wosny Lambre, Kevin O’Connor, and J Kyle Mann

Episode Date: February 10, 2022

In Part 3 of the NBA Trade Deadline podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor, Wosny Lambre and J Kyle Mann talking about the Knicks and Lakers standing pat, how it’ll impact LeBron’s future in LA and why the league is so much deeper than it was just a few years ago. Then they get into whether the “merry-go-round era” in the league right now and if fans actually like the product it creates. Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O'Connor, Wosny Lambre, and J Kyle Mann Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Must be legal drinking age. All right, here's part three of the trade deadline palooza pod. It is 1210 now. We are 10 minutes past the trade deadline. Chris Ryan has left us. Kyle Mann has joined us. He was breaking down with our guy Charks, the Halliburton Sabonis trade you can hear on the Ringer NBA. KOC is here.

He broke down that trade as well. Waz is here. He broke down that trade as well. Now we're going to break down all the trades that didn't happen because unless we start getting some tweets soon, it looks like the Lakers stood pat. It looks like the Knicks stood pat, which I kind of can't believe. KOC, why did the Knicks do nothing? I did not have that on my bingo card. Nobody really wanted Julius Randle. I mean, nobody really wanted Evan Fournier or Alec Burks. They just don't have many guys with a ton of value. I think for the Knicks, they're in a position now where it's about waiting for somebody who wants to go there, and then those are the pieces that you use in a trade to get that player if that even comes up.

So I think for the Knicks, there's just nothing appealing out there for them. Kyle, why wouldn't they just trade the contracts they don't want for Westbrook and think of him as an expiring contract next year? Oh, my God. The Knicks are just, I don't know why. The Knicks are in a tough situation because their whole system is failing itself. Because they really, if this thing was thriving and they could continue the momentum, the problem is they have no momentum. And their young players aren't getting to play.

They're not shining quickly as much as I love him. And year two has not looked as good as he did last year within that thriving system. Randall, like KOC said, we've seen zero indication from Randall that he wants to adjust and be anything other than like an inefficient primary, which just isn't working. And then Burks has been uninspiring. And then also, you know, you talk about guys wanting to come there. The other thing that's kind of bearing down on the Knicks right now is you're starting to see some more whispers of the like the thing that happened with Chicago, the thing that happened with Minnesota, where it's

like Tibbs is really good at coming in there and being like buying culture. If you buy in, my schemes are good. We will surprise people and blitz them with our competence on defense. And we are going to be annoying to play. And we're going to surprise people. The next year, you don't surprise people as much. The Randall shooting goes down. And now you start to hear the whispers of like, I don't, I mean, you know, Tibbs is playing RJ in the, in the waning seconds of a, of a big loss. It, like, I don't, I mean, you know, Tibbs is playing RJ in the waning seconds of a big loss. It's like, I don't go play for that guy. Suddenly it's less inspiring. It's just a lot of things converging at once for the Knicks.

It's an amazing sort of dip that they've hit here after such a great year last year. Yeah, it's funny with the Knicks. It's like, if I'm a Knicks fan, Waz. If I'm a Knicks fan, Waz, if I'm a Knicks fan, what am I feeling good about? I actually thought we could do this as a segment of basically make so-and-so's fans feel better.

If I'm a Knicks fan, what am I feeling good about? Because I've been hearing, really for the last 15 years, that no, no, we're going to get some free agents. It's all fine. We're going to have some cap space. We're going to get it. No, no, these guys are no, we're going to get some free agents. It's all fine. We're going to have some cap space. We're going to get it.

No, no, these guys are in and they're going to be able to get in and it's just not happening. So what do you feel good about if you're a Knicks fan? I think you can still feel good about RJ. I'm still pretty optimistic about RJ and the type of player that he could be. I don't think he's going to be as good as Ja Morant

or as good as Zion, who was picked before, like literally directly before him. But I'm still optimistic about him. I've said it a million times. I'm a fan of Obi Toppin. Me too. I'm with you. I like Obi Toppin a lot. And I still like quickly.

I still like, you know, a guy who can, who has some juice on the ball and can make a pull-up jump shot. Those are valuable players. You know what I'm saying? In the long run, anyway. Other than that, to me, it's like you got to get a guy to decide to get his butt into the building. A guy guy. Not a Julius Randall guy.

A real guy to decide that he wants to be in the garden and i think that's when you'll see all right now some different dominoes gotta fall but they have to get that one guy and i think they have to stay the course you know like this idea that you trade some of your young guys for somebody who's not really going to change your life that much. I don't think that's something you could do. You should do like, for instance, I'm glad they didn't try to get in on the Sabonis sweepstakes, right? Like that would have been a Knicks move from the past. Like, yeah, let's throw Toppin in there. Let's throw another young guy in there. Let's

maybe even throw a future pick in there. Let's get into the Sabonis game. Like I'm glad they didn't do something like that so it's nice to see that at least they're staying the course of what their plan is which is like when a superstar comes available who's interested they can pounce they have some young things that they can move they have manageable contracts that they can move around and i think they should just stay the course that's the positive thing is things aren't disastrous as they have been in previous years. KFC. I agree with that was I mean, I think with this team like despite everything that happened last year and how amazing it was and how fun it was

the circumstances this point are focused on the youth and the development and like RJ Barrett this past month or so has been really good averaging 23 points 38 from three i mean he's just playing still good on defense as well so you gotta feel good about the development of your young guys for the next the part that i mean like you feel good about that as a next fan but i don't feel good about is the fact that as kyle brought up like with tibbs like they traded a first-round pick for Cam Reddish, and he plays in five of nine possible games since he got back from his injury, a high of 15 minutes per game.

You hear rumblings of further dysfunction between, or rather, disagreement between the coaching staff and the front office, just like Chicago. This has happened before, and you have to wonder for the Knicks, after everything that happened last year, is Tibbs the right guy for this roster moving forward uh i think he could be like tibbs is not a bad coach

it's just you're gonna give him the right guys to play and for the knicks now like like cam has to play like you don't give him a first he has to play like come on tibbs what are we waiting for i just don't understand it just feels like very disconnected when the the idea of hiring tibbs was to have an aligned organization leon rose and tibbs connected from front office to coaching staff to the players in that locker room and now it just feels totally disconnected with everything and the objectives of this roster here. And I'd be, I'd be very scared if I'm a Knicks fan in that sense, because you're still in the same place you were before, where you're just waiting for somebody who wants to come to you and play in New York. With Tibbs, I had that, I had this theory with Kirk Cousins in football, where sometimes a guy should just move around every single year, every single year. It's a

new team. Kirk Cousins, like a lot of teams, they need single year. Every single year, it's a new team. Kirk Cousins, like a lot of teams, they need a quarterback. They haven't had a good quarterback in a couple years. He can come in, he can be solid, right? He can throw the ball around. He can throw for 4,500 yards. You don't have to watch him enough that you start getting annoyed by some of his terrible qualities. And he could just move around the league, go 9-7.

And he could be the Steelers QB next year. And you go, that was great. So much better than it would have gone with Mason Rudolph. Thanks, Kirk Cousins. And then he goes to the next team. Tibbs is kind of like that for me as a coach. Maybe he should just move every year to a different team and you just get that one-year Tibbs boost.

And then year two, we've just seen this over and over again. I think he's a really smart coach, but this is not a pattern anymore. This seems like the way it is. He can't be the CEO. He might just be destined to be the assistant guy who helps you be the defensive coordinator type of guy and keep it pushing. Because it feels like he wears everybody thin. My Chicago buddies were calling it year two Tibbs. They're like, yeah, yeah, just wait for year two.

Just wait for year two. Well, I'm glad you said the thing about CEO was because I always think about coaches like certain types of CEOs. Now'm not a business-minded person, but I see this as maybe this is a shift of... There are guy that was going to come in and want to work with young players. Maybe we're just seeing a shift from, we used to think of Tibbs, because of the Chicago Times, as like a guy who coached contenders. Maybe he's more of a guy who just comes in and shifts culture and then you bring somebody else in. So it could be a case of that.

KOC, you're not surprised the Lakers did nothing? No, not surprised. Not many options out there for them. I think the Bill Orem report, that's a real thing. Bill Orem reported that the Lakers would rather wait until the offseason because then they could deal their 2027 first and a 2029 first with Westbrook. So I think for the Lakers, I mean, I take this as, okay, we're just going to explore the buyout market.

Mike gets Schroeder, Paul Millsap, potentially, if he hits the buyout market. And, you know, congrats. I mean, congrats. Like, you know, this year's disastrous, but I think they're thinking, well, reenter the offseason, try to flip Westbrook out elsewhere, do everything we can to recruit Damian Lillard, Bradley Beal, whoever it might be. That's the logic there. Will it happen? Probably not, but you never know. I just don't think... I think they're going into a gunfight with

a couple knives with that. If your offer is like, hey, we're in a superstar hunt, here's Russell Westbrook, Taylor Horton Tucker, and two first rounders five and seven years from now. I'm pretty sure there's five teams that can top that, right? So what you end up doing is you have to roll the dice on somebody else's

semi-problem. Also, it only makes ever make sense if you're able to make the credible threat that in the off season, I can make cap space to sign this person outright, right? That's what Philadelphia was saying to Brooklyn, like, oh, we don't have to do this. We can wait till the offseason. We can completely just take a blowtorch to our postseason hopes this year and just wait for James this summer and you'll get nothing for him, et cetera, et cetera. If you can't make that credible, you know, threat to a team,

then it's going to be tough for you to acquire a superstar that way. Kyle, is it fair to say maybe the Lakers just look at this and go, we won a title. We traded all those picks to win another title. We have LeBron and AD. It's not going to work out this year. It happens.

We'll just wait till the summer. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. I don't, I personally don't think they're wired that way and there's too many expectations and too many Laker fans. But that's really where they should be mentally.

Now, will they get there? I don't know, but that's where they should be, right? I mean, this is scary because once you get in that 35,

I mean, I think I heard, maybe it was Perk on TV say this is a prime year for LeBron. I mean, I think I heard maybe it was perk on TV say this is a prime year for LeBron. I mean, this is a like LeBron's LeBron's cycle as we've seen is different. He still does incredible stuff, but this 35 to 40 range, I mean, if you're talking about punting another year of that, I just, I, that makes me feel like they are not going to kick back. They may not have a choice.

I think what you said was maybe you take on the burden of someone else and you assume, and Wiles and I were talking about the hubris that some teams can have and thinking that they can fix a player the way somebody that's dating somebody would be like, I could fix them. Doing that with Westbrook got them into this situation. And it's just, this is the way it works with LeBron. He comes in and he just sort of,

he uses up all your resources and you try to get the most out of it. But in terms of like the clock ticking and like whether or not they're going to be comfortable enough to sit back

and say, well, we tried this, you know, this isn't going to work this year. I have a hard time seeing them do that just because I think the clock is ticking

so loud for LeBron at this point. You know what? I disagree. I disagree there, guys. I don't think the clock's ticking loudly at all with LeBron at this point. I disagree. I disagree there, guys. I don't think the clock's ticking loudly at all with LeBron. This past month, he's averaging 30 points per game, nine rebounds, six assists, playing center for the Lakers.

LeBron James has always been a guy who does whatever his team needs, whether it's becoming a playmaker, becoming the go-to scorer, defending whoever it needs to be in certain playoff series but for the past month with out ad with russ sucking lebron has played center for this team and like despite him being 37 years old and clearly he's past his athletic prime he is a 100 like pull up lebron with the heat like he is way past that level in terms of athleticism but production wise lebrron has constantly adapted and figured out how to maximize who he is

at this stage of his career. And I agree with Perk. It is still, in terms of production, a prime year for LeBron James. Athleticism, no. But production, LeBron is still a championship player and it's a wasteful year that he's not going to be able to compete for a championship unless Russ somehow figures

things out. The problem though, is physically he can't do it night after night. We meet after lake like he used to. And we saw like, they had to really put some miles on him to try to keep the team somewhere near the seventh, eighth seed. And he's playing center and he's doing all this stuff.

And he played really well for a couple of weeks. And then all of a sudden, you know, his knees went on him and now he's playing hurt. And this is, this is what happens with older players. We saw with Kobe, we saw with Jordan and you know, you, you don't want to be in a situation where you're putting crazy miles on him when you're going to be a nine seed. By the way, in 2012 version of LeBron or my favorite version of LeBron 2009 version, when they lost to the, to the magic. I love that. I love that version of LeBron, 2009 version when they lost to the Magic.

I love that. I love that version of Woz. On this team, there are three seeds. There are three seeds. There are two seeds. He's doing everything every single night, and he's not even breaking a sweat doing it with this team, like with this level of AD, with Westbrook doing it. Because, again, we saw it happen. We saw it happen with Ira Noble.

We saw it happen with Boobie Gibson. We saw it happen over and over. Washed up Ben Wallace, Wally Zerbiak. We constantly saw this happening, right? Andy Varajal, right? But now he just can't carry that level of burden night in and night out and just kill people every day um although he's still very good to great you know when he can get to that level he can't carry teams anymore i think the opponents are better too though like isn't the league deeper

and better now as well than like those calves lebron james teams i mean like the league is just so deep at this point. We were talking about the playing in the earlier version, the East, like it's loaded. Wow, I can't believe you're disrespecting the UBUTU Celtics like that. Wow. Honestly, that's an important point. And it's something I think about a lot

because I'm always trying to compare the eras and which era had more talent, when was it easier and harder to win, things like that. And there was a time not that long ago, probably in the 13, 14 range where if you had LeBron and Anthony Davis, even at the points of their career, they are now, it didn't really matter who the other guys on the team were. They're probably going to win 55 games. And now it's like the league's fucking deep. We, Kyle, we did in part two, we talked about how crazy these playoffs are going to be.

The Celtics might be the eighth seed. Brooklyn might be a nine or a 10 seed in the play-in thing. And it's like, whatever seed you're in in round one, you're going to be playing somebody who has really good players in their team. You could be playing the Celtics that has Tatum, who is starting in the All-Star game. You could be playing Miami who has all these dudes who have been in big games on and on down the line. I'm with KOC. I think the talent thing,

and there's a couple reasons for it, it's just like we've gotten really lucky with the last few drafts and guys sitting there prime, but also guys being able to play longer. Fucking Chris Paul still being good when he was in the 2005 draft is inconceivable. LeBron was in the 2005 draft is inconceivable lebron was in the 03 draft you know and so you have like these almost like three generations of players and i don't think

you can get by with just the two guys anymore you need more some of this too is lebron's own doing because he kicked off the era of which you know whether or not it would have happened anyway it probably would have all across basketball i think the player empowerment thing has just rippled out with the transfer portal, whole other conversation. But now he's having to basically, you create the thing you dread, basically. He's having to beat these teams that are a result of players being empowered, and they're teaming up and joining up. But then also, beyond that, like you were saying, Bill, the talent.

I was making this argument to Charks the other day that like the NBA is just ultra talented because it's almost like an iPhone where it's like every time the new one comes out, it's twice as good as the one before. It's just like we have so many good players. And if you like just go back through the past four drafts, like you were saying, like just so many good players are entering the league every year, which, you know, two sides to that, it makes it more incredible that LeBron has had the longevity that he's had. But I think that on the age thing, yeah, it's like, I know this.

It's just like you're less likely to sustain a big hit. And when it's over, it's over. Whereas like when he's, yes, he can do a whole lot. Especially the knees too. The knees, you just have so many jumps in your knees. And I don't care how big your crowd chamber is in your house or whatever else you have going. It's like a car. You can get a car at 200,000 miles, maybe.

But what if you're on that TB12, Bill? You might be able to get a couple more jumps out of you on that TB12. That's a good example, though. He's not able to do that unless they change all the rules in favor of the quarterbacks, right? There would have been too many hits and he just wouldn't have played a 44. I think the league, the NBA

league, is more physical than it's been in a few years. I watched these games, like the hit John Moran took the other night from Marcus Morris. It seems like the league has moved away from finesse and it's even more intense. And maybe social media is a piece of that because you can't do what Harden did in Sacramento last week. If you do the four-point game where you don't play defense, you're going to get raked over the coals for two days. You can't hide in the NBA like you used to.

The guys in the 80s could just not play for a week, not give a shit. So it's a weird time for the league. It's a good time for the league. I want to talk about the player empowerment stuff, but we got to take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. So KOC, player empowerment, we're in year 12 and we just saw the first ever double player empowerment trade here with Harden and Simis. One guy quit on his team nine months ago.

The other guy quit on his other team 12 months ago and then forced his way to this new team, which he also decided he didn't like. When has this just become bad? When have we, and are we there yet? Because I was talking to a friend of mine today and I was just like, I don't like the league as much.

I still love basketball. I still love watching basketball. And I don't know whether I'm the old guy who said things were better back in the day because I don't feel that way about the NFL. I like the NFL more than I have in 10 years. I think the NFL, forget about the owners and how reprehensible some of that stuff's been, and Goodell as a commissioner.

I'm just talking about the actual product and the players they have in the league. I like it more than I've liked it probably since the 2000s. I really enjoy watching these quarterbacks and how they've been able to open up, and I don't have to watch guys get carried off the field every five seconds. And I feel like the NBA is veering the 2000s. I really enjoy watching these quarterbacks and how they've been able to open up and I don't have to watch guys get carried off the field every five seconds.

And I feel like the NBA is veering the other way with these guys that the moment they don't like their situation, they're just like, get me out of here. And it's turning into

a get me out of here league, which is why the guys like Ja and Jokic who are just like, this is where I want to be. I love playing with these guys. Jokic loses Murray and Porter. You never heard him say like, oh is where I want to be. I love playing with these guys. Jokic loses Murray and Porter. You never heard him say like,

oh man, I don't know. We'll see if I stay. Like, he's just like, who's on my team? I'm wearing this uniform. I'm playing. I don't like where the league's going, KOC. Where do you stand on all this?

I mean, you brought up the NFL. With the NFL, their changes were like to on-field rules to improve the products. With the NBA, you're talking about like, well, what's the off-court, you know, the negotiated BRI stuff, you know, CBA, that they're going to have to change to address the issue that you have with it. I mean, I think for the NBA, there's pros and cons.

I mean, we're having a great time talking about all these trades. I'm having fun. I'm enjoying the conversations and the stories. That's part of the reason why I love the NBA. I love the sport of basketball itself. I also love all the stories and the business side of basketball

as well. So I personally enjoy all this drama and the fact that players are able to move. However, from the team perspective, building out a roster, building a culture, building an identity that is so important, you know, for fans, for growing a connection with a team and states because of the nfl like you know like the steelers have an identity the ravens have an identity like with the nba teams don't really have that type of an identity and and that that's just different i wouldn't say it's worse but it's definitely different than like the way we experience the nfl um as a fan yeah i first i hate the term

player empowerment era. Um, I remember I talked to Dominique Foxworth about it one day and it was just like, what are they empowered to do? Pick teams. Right. Uh,

like, and you know, and, and to speak to that specifically, like there's a big difference between LeBron basically signing his, um, rookie extension as it were in saying, I'm not going to do the full six years

i'm gonna do the four as a signal to everybody like get your asses ready that summer i'm gonna be available right and marshalling a lot of interest around him being available at 25 26 years old best player since jordan or whatever There's a difference between that and Ben Simmons having four years left on his deal and refusing the hoop. That's like, to me, those are worlds apart. Like what Ben Simmons did was fucked up, was stupid and shouldn't be allowed to happen. Like straight up, like you can be mad at your teammates. You can want to be on another team.

You can put pressure on your front office and management. But, bro, you should be showing up to work, okay? And you should be busting your ass. Like, James Harden, what he did at the end of Houston, that was dicey. That was very shaky. Like, the expectation from everybody should be that we show up and we bust our ass to play. You know, that's why I was like annoyed by the John Wall thing. It's like a lot of this stuff I feel like goes towards devaluing the actual product,

the actual game. And I honestly think it's Adam freaking Silver's fault. One, because, you know, all of this emphasis on winning the internet, all of this emphasis on all of that 365 sport blah blah blah and quite frankly like they devalued the actual product on the floor um it's like player i don't think the players actually empowered to do much they get folded up every fucking cba i don't know how powerful these guys actually are. I just think if you're signed, fam,

you should show up to the game and try your hardest. Now, if you yelling at dudes like Jimmy Butler in practice, making shit uncomfortable, I'm for that, right? But Jimmy Butler didn't say, yo, I'm leaving the team, I'm not showing up because I can't stand these bum-ass kids. He was like, no, I'm going to make things very uncomfortable for them while also actually doing my job. Some of this other stuff is just garbage, quite frankly. I don't know why we got a category, corrise it as Ben Simmons has power.

Ben Simmons was being a nuisance and a baby. And he got really lucky that James Harden also was tired of where he was at. And he ended up in Brooklyn because it could have got dark for him in some of these other markets. Yeah, that's a good point. It shouldn't be called the poor empowerment era. It should be called like the merry-go-round era. That's all it is. Because that's really what it is.

And I'm with you on Simmons. I was explaining my wife knows nothing. And I was like, she's like, any big trades today? And I was like, yeah, this Ben Simmons thing. And she's like, oh, what's going on with him? Like, she literally knows nothing. And I was like, she's like, any big trades today? And I was like, yeah, this Ben Simmons thing. And she's like, oh, what's going on with him? She literally knows nothing. I'm like, well, he hasn't played for eight months because he really sucked in the playoffs. Which is unbelievable. It's unbelievable. His coach said afterwards, he wasn't sure if he was a reliable point guard and his feelings were

hurt. So he hasn't played since. And they're also not paying him and he's cost himself $20 million. And she was just like, what? I was thinking like, how would I have explained that to myself 25 years ago that this was an actual thing that happened, you know? And then the harder thing a year ago, if we had said to each other, so he's going to force his way to Brooklyn and a year from now, he's going to force his way. So I'm like, no, that's too crazy.

Come on. Kyle, you love the actual mechanics of basketball as much as anybody I've met. And yet this stuff is overshadowing it constantly. I see the KOC point because I agree with you. It's more fun for people like us, right? It's more fun for podcast content and angles and our website and all those different things. But on the other hand, I think it's telling that the teams that have resonated the most

this season with fans, with the people who actually give a shit, are Memphis and Cleveland and Phoenix and Golden State. Those four teams. And a little bit Toronto too, where it's like teams that drafted smart, that tried to build some sort of culture that built around a guy who actually wants to be there. And, you know, and I think we like that. I think we like the idea of teams staying together of nucleuses versus like, I'm going to go here. I'm going to go there. I hate the, I'm going to go here. I'm going to go there. And maybe that's what we should call it. What's your, where do you stand Kyle? I think that's, I think it's important

that like, we haven't seen like a full shift into like every single year, the team up teams are winning. I think like this past, these past playoffs, if like Brooklyn had knocked off that Milwaukee team that had kind of gelled over time, if they had just jumped in and knocked them off, which they might have, it's probably better for the league that they didn't. But I think in terms of the overall product, I think that we're moving. I do think it's important that we don't get to a point where we just have this upper echelon of the league that you have to have a merry-go-round team to win. And I think it's important for the product, like you were saying, for the Memphis's, for we'll see.

I mean, we'll see what Memphis does in the playoffs. But, you know, Chris Paul also went and joined a team that was already working. I mean, the players, the players are empowered to kind of make decisions for themselves. And there's a whole spectrum for that. But in terms of like the product itself, I do think we're on a better path than we were in the past, specifically because I was watching, and I think Harden was kind of a big part of that, maybe Maury discovering or just figuring out that,

hey, if we get this one Helio-centric player and we just build around him and just spam these certain parts of production, like threes, layups, and generating fouls, I think we're kind of moving out of that era. Do you all see what I mean? From 2018 to 2020, I feel like we were obsessed with like, we need to get like a Luka, a Harden, a person that can like run a crazy amount of pick and rolls and draw a ton of fouls. I feel like we're moving more towards a Warriors model where we're valuing like wings that can be like playmakers or shooters. It's not as like you have one player, they carry a crazy load. I know that's more of like an on-court nerdy observation. But I do think we're on a better track than we were a couple years ago.

I think to Kyle's point there about the on-court, I think it's also true in terms of the styles of teams. I mean, we do have these teams that it's a super team. Guys force their ways there. They talk about it and try to get together but we do have those homegrown teams i mean i'd like there's just more extremes in a way like we're still going to have those grizzlies teams those calves teams that are homegrown and young and exciting and they may make one one big tweak like the suns did getting

chris paul that put them over the top like that could happen in a year or two or three for Memphis or Cleveland like we we do have those heliocentric offenses in the NBA we have defenses that switch a ton of screens like the Brooklyn Nets we have teams that don't switch screens like I think there's just such a range of styles in terms of team building but also like player and team system styles like that that's all All of it together is why I love basketball more than I ever have right now. I mean, because everything is just so different. There's so many different types of styles to watch and consume, whether it's the drama,

whether it's the on-court, or whether it's the business side with all the trades that we're talking about today. I personally, player empowerment, merry-go-round, whatever you want to call it, I'm cool with it personally. I like a lot of the movement. It's fun. Maybe it's the social media era.

All this really starts when 2009, 2010, right around the decision, but that's when Twitter's starting and all that stuff. The thing that makes it so hard to police, I'm with you. I actually think Adam Silver has done a poor job handling some of this stuff because I think it really looks bad that over and over again, guys can just force them out of situations. Bill, the league office refused to come out and say what Simmons was doing

was fucked up and bad. Right. They didn't want to say it. They wanted the Sixers to punish him. They wanted Ben to get punished and fine, right they didn't want to say it they wanted the Sixers to punish him like they wanted that they wanted Ben to get punished and fine but they didn't want to come out and officially be like this is bullshit could you imagine David Stern allowing for that and not that David Stern was a perfect angel it's a words it's a words Papa Stern I'm not trying to get all paternalistic

about it but David Stern would have, ever stood for the Ben Simmons situation. Ever. But then the Harden situation too, I just think it's impossible to police because obviously there's been tampering galore over and over again, going back to when LeBron knew. Do you think that Harden has Daryl Morey's number?

Is that possible? I think intermediaries are used constantly with this stuff. I don't think people are texting each other. I think there's no trail, but I think there's always third people, fourth people involved. This goes back to when KOC and I, for LeBron's last year in Cleveland, we were like, he's going to the Lakers. Remember? We were like on an island. We were like, he's going to the Lakers. This is happening. And people, it happened. I think over and over and over again, we've seen that the NBA can't police this at all, that they have no recourse. We haven't seen anybody punished in any real way. And it's just going to keep happening. And I'm not sure they care, but I don't, you know, I, I think it's going to lead to an unhappier league. Honestly, like it's turning into the real housewives of the national basketball association. There's no, there's no alternative. You know why? Because the owners,

remember they used to have this seven year contracts where they could lock these dudes up and shackle them. And Hey, you're not moving from this damn decrepit franchise. As a matter of fact, I'm going, I'm going to the bank just knowing that I have you locked for a year. And I can do whatever I want with the roster. Yeah, but what was the issue with that? They started overpaying guys. They couldn't help themselves. They couldn't help themselves.

They made terrible contracts. And they were like, oh, my God, save us from ourselves. We got to make the contract shorter. And now that led to this. Again, it all goes back to the league can't police themselves for making terrible decisions. Julius Randle in the old days would have a seven-year contract right now. It would be like

next year, seven years, 120 for Julius Randle. The Knicks fans would be like, oh my god! That's the whole decade! Shoot me! Should the NBAba i mean like we're talking about like all this tampering that's obviously going on in some form should the nba just drop tampering instead of having these fake you know slap on the wrists rules or is like because there's no policing it like you said bill like is it the type of thing the nba has to just say you know

what tampering is okay i mean they kind of effectively already have what the joke of a fine is. The team's good. No, no, no. Once it's out, it's out. I mean, it's kind of like the name image likeness thing in college. It's just like once you pass that point, it'd be like if I went to the roof of a building and just cut a pillowcase open and the feathers are out there. I'm never going to get them all back.

It's over. They can't go back. How could you trace it? How could you police it? And the players could tamper back. Like, it's over. They can't go back. How could you trace it? How could you police it? And the players could tamper with each other. That's the thing you can't police. But here's the thing, though. Here's the thing, though, and I want to be careful about what I'm saying here, is that sports is what they're selling is they're tapping into a certain level of delusion and mania, right? That they're selling to the people.

You don't want to snap your customers out of that delusion and mania with too much real talk. Because that kind of fucks up the fantasy and the delusion. Like, you can't just keep invoking, like, well, this already happens. Well, these guys are mercenaries

and don't give a fuck about your team or your city, actually. Well, this is what mercenaries and don't give a fuck about your team or your city, actually. Well, this is what you can't do that as a business, man. That's why they need to be policing this shit more strictly, honestly, man. Because, like, you can't have this. You know, I get a certain point where Kyrie's like, oh, January 6th, I got paid sick leave. I'm like, come on, fam. What are we doing? This is sports. I'm like, come on, fam. What are we doing?

This is sports. I want to say I wrote about this. I did a whole column about this in 08-09 range about the illusion of hope. I think that was what I called the column where it was like that became this new thing the NBA was kind of selling us, right? It was like, you don't have hope,

but maybe down the road you will. And it's like, oh. And I think it was in the 08, 09 range, because we had all those teams kind of jacking and create 2010 cap space, right? And at some point we were all looking at it going, well, there's eight teams that are going to have cap space. There's four guys you want. Some people are going to have their feelings hurt, but everybody was doing it. There was no tanking rules you want. Some people are going to have their feelings hurt, but everybody was doing it. There was no tanking rules against it. And people were sitting guys and doing the whole thing. And I feel like that's around when it started for the illusion of hope thing.

Before then, I don't, I just think the GMs and the teams were pretty stupid. Like they didn't look at team building. Then they weren't thinking like seven chess moves ahead. Riley was really the first guy who started thinking that way. The Knicks tried, but they were incompetent. But now it's basically been

a decade and a half of it, KOC. Could the NBA have something, like I was just thinking about this while you guys were talking there, but like for this illusion of hope, maybe the solution could be like a two-way no trade clause where the player and the team are married to each other

for the duration of the supermax. If you're talking about you're worried about players demanding trades, I'm just trying to think of solutions. I don't know if this is a good idea, but I'm just throwing that thought out there where the player cannot be traded. The team can't trade the player. The player cannot request a trade.

They are together for three years, four years, whatever it might be. I wrote that. I looked it up. I wrote it February 2010. And it was like at that time we had, you know, Jermaine O'Neal was making more money than Kevin Durant and Westbrook and Hart and all those guys combined. I had Rasheed Wallace rope the Celtics in that terrible contract that they regretted. We had Tracy McGrady making $22.4 million A year on the bench not being able to

Trade Gilbert Arenas Chauncey Billups We had Jamal Tinsley being paid not to play So it was its own kind of crisis We had a lot of guys making big money That either were hurt, weren't playing And it was bad and there was no way out You couldn't fix your team

And the solution was let's make the contract shorter. But now we're in the merry-go-round era. And I guess in some ways it's more fun, but... I think it would be fine. I think all of this stuff would be fine if, you know, again, like the stuff with the regular season, I really think 82 games, I know I'm not a genius for saying this,

is just too freaking long there's too many games and it's and another problem is hard for like casual fans to figure out when they need to care about the nba besides the playoffs like when when should you be watching regular and season nba when guys aren't sitting down, well, that's happening all season. When teams aren't tanking, well, pretty much after the trade deadline, they're off to the races, except for the Sacramento Kings. You know, like, when are you supposed to be watching?

You know, like, when are you supposed to be watching the NBA? Do you guys feel that this year? Do you feel it? Like, does the Thursday night game feel like it used to? The TNT game? Do you feel like the same kind of, whatever? Because I'm with you. I don't feel it like this? The Thursday night game feel like it used to the TNT game. Do you feel like the same kind of whatever? Cause I I'm with you.

I don't, I don't feel too much inventory. Well, the, the contenders have all been in such flux that I think it's made it less, you know, consistently like end to end. Well, COVID's had a big part of that too.

You know, but I was going to say too, that to tack on to your thing about the hope is, I mean, if people, and I think why I said some version of this too, that, that if people stopped hoping, then the product would fail. I think what they've done is kind of like what TV shows have done, where they've talked about this on some of our pods, where it's like TV shows figured out at some point that the theorizing was the thing that really got people going and it's like and like the hope is the dopamine that they can continue to like and i think you see you i think the social media thing is kind of i'm becoming uh charlie from always sunny in the room with the pointing now but like the social media is the same

type of like algorithmic like you're just on the hook it's like this hit that you just keep wanting i think fans they can say they hate it but they just keep coming back because that hope is so seductive. And we see that around the draft, too. I mean, people just keep falling for it over and over again, that illusion of hope. The hope is the product that they keep getting. I mean, they keep coming back for the tweets and the transactions, but can they come watch Shingun play for the love of God? KOC? Oh, baby. I mean, i think that exists though i mean i i do i think like i did like a shengoon video

and it gets like a you know a hundred thousand views like kyle you're okay they got like 500k views on youtube like there's like i think there's a market there's a market for these players who are under the radar and these teams. Like you mentioned earlier, Bill, the Cavs, the Grizzlies. People love those teams, those players. I still think there's a general excitement that fans have for that. It's just we have it all. That's what the internet is.

The internet gives you everything all at once. There's something for everybody. I think that's what the NBA provides. There's something for everybody, depending on their style of a fan that you are. I was thinking back about this today to tie in what you're saying, KOC. My relationship with James Harden, totally disconnected from him. I'm a basketball. I don't have an NBA team. I always say I skate between people's misery. I go to sleep at night, sleep like a baby. I don't care. But like James Harden, I was thinking about James Harden.

And I was like, when was the time in my life when I most enjoyed him? And I was talking to a buddy of mine. I was like, can you remember when James Harden was this like six-man secondary playmaker that could just go off? And he terrified other playoff teams to the point where they would try to shut him down. That was the most fun he ever was. And that was before he was an actualized thing. I think people just get really excited about it. Like you were talking about, KFC, expectations just kind of become the death of joy. That's why it's more fun to root for a team

that hasn't gotten there yet because the pressure's not on yet. So you're playing with house money and it's just more fun. It's the Memphis stage right now in Cleveland same thing best example yeah it's it's a really weird time for the NBA we're gonna end part three wise you can either stay with us for part four we're gonna bring Mahoney in or or you can go and do your thing happy birthday by the way was thank you thank you so

much I'm Leonardo DiCaprio I'm not fucking leaving all right I thought you were gonna go do a West 59s yeah we're gonna do we're gonna break a rule we're going to end part three. I thought you were going to go do a West Virginia Ice. We're going to do, we're going to break a rule. We're going to have a five-man podcast. I swear it's going to work.

Rob Mahoney is going to be back and we'll do big picture winners and losers coming up next. That was part three produced by Kyle Creighton. You can hear the other two parts as well on Spotify

wherever you get your podcasts. It is now almost one o'clock. See you in your podcasts. It is now almost one o'clock. See you in five minutes. On the wayside On the first sun Never lost it I don't have To ever forget