The Bill Simmons Podcast - Philly’s Ceiling, Orlando’s Future, Kawhi’s Present, and Ben Simmons’s Past With Chris Ryan, Steve Ceruti, and Michael Pina

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan to discuss they 76ers' impressive stretch of games, the top of the Eastern Conference, the Cavaliers buying out Kevin Love, and more (2:53). Steve Ceruti then joins to talk about a rejuvenated Markelle Fultz, as well as the Magic's bright future and offseason (37:51). Finally Bill talks with Michael Pina about Kawhi Leonard seemingly returning to the peak of his powers, the Clippers' trade deadline roster additions, favorite Western Conference teams, and more (58:53). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Ryan, Steve Ceruti, and Michael Pina Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I have a movie from the last 10 years coming on the next Rewatchables on Monday. I already taped it. It's happening. Everyone says these movies are too old. Well, this is a newer movie that we're doing next week. I also went on our Ringer Reality Podcast, Johnny Bananas, the one and only.

He has a podcast for us called Death, Taxes, and Bananas. He was following the Ride or Die Challenge season every week, which he was on. He made the finals. And spoiler alert, he was the runner up. He lost. Him and Nani, the tail end, they had the lead. They blew it. We went into why. We talked about the whole season, things I liked, things I didn't like. He gave us some inside baseball stuff. And then as always, I came up with an idea for a future challenge season. As you know, it is the fifth professional sport. It still is. Anyway, you can check that out and you can also check out all of our local podcasts. If you want a little dose of the locals,

the ringer Philly special off the Pike with Brian Barrett, New York, New York with John Jastrzemski, and The Full Go with Jason Goff. Jason Goff has to do a special podcast series called The 2020s Are Killing Me. Just about all the Chicago teams and all the

terrible things that have happened. I would like to go on that podcast and just make fun of his teams. Coming up on this podcast, we're going all basketball. Going to talk Sixers with Chris Ryan. We're going to bring in Steve Cerruti and talk about the sneaky, sneaky Orlando Magic. Officially sneaky.

They're sneaking around. And then last but not least, Kawhi Leonard is having a little resurgence. Michael Pino wrote about it on The Ringer. And we're going not least, Kawhi Leonard is having a little resurgence. Michael Pino wrote about it on The Ringer, and we're going to talk about Kawhi and the Clippers. They're actually playing later tonight. So if anything crazy happens in that game, don't blame us. But we taped it earlier in the day. An all-basketball podcast. Sunday night, Rosilla is going to be on here as well. So stay tuned for that. Let's bring in our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're talking about,

I don't want to call them sleepers. They're more like lurkers in the NBA. We'll talk about the Clippers later. We'll talk about the Orlando Magic in a little bit. They're kind of a lurker too. They're like a, they're not really a lottery team, but they're a playing lurker.

Yeah. And then Chris Ryan's favorite team, the Philadelphia 76ers. Since December 7th, 26-7. Yeah. Best record in the league. The Celtics are 22-12 during that stretch. Miami is 21-13. Milwaukee is 23-11.

They've been really good now for 10 weeks. It's real. And yet, here comes the end yet. And yet, something about this team makes its fans and the people watching it not 100%

believe. Even though all the facts, all the evidence is like, hey, this makes sense. This team, when they want to, they can play defense. They have a top five player. They have another all-star right next to them. The guys play pretty well together. They can blow the doors off somebody.

Like the Cavs yesterday, they're up like almost 30 in the first half of that game. And yet, what is it? What is this team missing, Chris Ryan? First of all, thanks for having me on. I always love doing the Northeast Corridor cultural exchange program with you I'm really happy for you on Valentine's

night with Peyton Pritchard and Sam Hauser giving you that romantic gift what is it about this team they maybe lack a little bit of a killer instinct that Cavs game is a really good example they look like world beaters in the first half Harden comes out scores 15 and that last night that Cavs game was a Harden comes out, scores 15. And that last night, that Cavs game

was a Harden game. That was like a very, very Harden is conducting the entire thing. He's orchestrating everything. And Bede is having a little bit of an off night offensively. And they go up like 30 for most of the game. And then they just kind of let the Cavs back in.

And some of that is Doc keeping Harden and Bede off the floors back in. And some of that is Doc keeping Harden and Embiid off the floor. He should always have one of them on the court. And he still stubbornly insists sometimes on having a rotation where neither of them are on the floor at times. But you just see them, they just leak points. Once they think the night's over, they start leaking points. And it got way, way closer than it needed to be.

There's something about this team that doesn't quite have, like, a ferocity to it. It's like they're really, they can be really efficient. They have a top six offense, top six defense. Like, all the fundamentals are there, but there's something a little bit lacking when it comes to, like,

I don't want to say character. It's like a hard word to put it, it's hard to put my finger on. There's a fuck you missing? Yeah, maybe. And maybe that's Harden. Maybe Harden's not a fuck you player. You know, maybe Harden's...

Well, he's definitely not. We know he's not. Yeah. But I'm like, kind of like meeting Harden where he is though. Like, I don't like watching him play basketball,

but like, I think when you watch him every night, you just start to see a lot more nuances in his game. And that he is somebody who starts transition baskets. He is somebody who can hit open shooters. He's the best point guard that we've probably had since Mo Cheeks. I mean, that's fucking crazy, but it's true. The first quarter of his Cavs game yesterday was unbelievable.

He was so good. He was like old guy in the pickup game, just setting everybody up. And everybody's just getting open shots. And he's grabbing down offensive rebounds and sending people up in the corner. And they're getting a rebound. It's going right to him. He's getting it ahead. He seems really fun to play with this season, which is unusual because

that's not what you would have said during those last few Rockets years where it's like, hey, can everybody stand around while I do my thing for 10-12? Yeah, he was blown by Mobley last night. It was awesome. You know, he was really... And he's shown that he's got a little bit more juice

in his first step over the last few weeks. He's really, really rounded into physical form. And, you know, the Embiid thing is he's putting up another MVP caliber season. Seems like we've kind of anointed Jokic as the back-to-back-to-back winner now. But, like, you know, or Giannis. But Embiid looks incredible. Sometimes they don't look like they're playing on the same team. You know, it can either be there is a little bit of your turn, my turn stuff.

But when Harden is playing with the wings, like it's a pretty awesome execution of modern basketball. Yeah, and the roster stuff had to shake out the right way, which it feels like, you know,

bringing Maxie off the bench where he becomes your version of like the Jordan Clarkson guy, but a little overqualified for it. I like that piece. The P.J. Tucker thing is what it is. He's 100 years old. In a playoff series, he's going to end up playing 10 too many minutes for you

in the biggest games, and you're not going to believe that he was out there for 41 minutes. But coaches just get super comfortable with him because he knows what he is and what he does. But there might be a night when he shuts down Jimmy Butler and I'm like, oh my god, I'm going to get P.J. Tucker's face tattooed on my back. The Jokic game.

When he defended Jokic in the fourth quarter and that was the best I've seen anyone do against Jokic this year was P.J. Tucker in the fourth quarter. I don't know whether Jokic was just confused quarter, and that was the best I've seen anyone do against Jokic this year, was P.J. Tucker in the fourth quarter. And I don't know whether Jokic was just confused by what was happening, why this 6-3 guy was mauling him, basically. And just, he couldn't solve it. He couldn't figure it out. It was smart. So,

you have him. Harris, you've been kind of pleased with, right, for the most part? Oh, for sure. Like, probably overqualified and certainly overpaid to be a third, fourth option on a team but has done essentially every role you can ask him to do he's like been fine as a spot shooter you know like his decision making is getting quicker he plays d and he's also like a really good dude and it seems like he's very very very well liked among that team and that can be i think a moody squad. Otherwise like Embiid and Harden,

both are capable of going up and down. I think Harden like more probably in terms of his engagement level, but Embiid like things don't go his way. He can throw a tantrum, you know, and he can kind of bring the vibe down a little bit on the floor at least. So it's nice to have somebody who's a little bit stable and a little bit even keel like Tobias out there.

Well, we talk about might be missing a little fuck you, which is really like a different level of toughness. P.J. Tucker has it. Butler had it. The what if of this, right, is that Harris is out there.

Wasn't it, you had Butler and Harris together basically for a couple months, but then this is Butler's big, let Butler go. You chose Tobias Harris over me. But that's not true, though.

Butler wanted to get out of there. It makes it sound like Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris submitted the exact same answers for the test. It's not exactly the case. You know, they liked Tobias' better. But the shame of it is that he just should have stayed. He's actually the guy you're missing.

I mean, I'm sure Embiid agrees with you. Yeah. I mean, Embiid has never really kind of gotten over Butler's departure. Yeah. And then you think, obviously they're going to choose Simmons. Simmons at that point was,

I think one of the best young talents in the league and everyone thought really highly of him. But man, when you see where Simmons is now at this point in his career, even in our wildest dreams, we couldn't have guessed that this would crater like this. Somebody put on Twitter the other day like a Simmons highlight reel

for my guess it was probably like 18, 19. And it's like watching, it doesn't even look like he's playing the same sport. It is so much faster, so much more decisive is running breaks and firing off these no look passes. And then also just dunking the shit out of the ball, like was such a threat to just go to the cup and, and,

and get to, and it was just his bread and butter of his game. And I think that there's obviously something going on with him in a big way, but the biggest thing is his confidence. Because he would just turn a corner and he was just like, this is going to be a tomahawk. I'm going in. And he just doesn't do that anymore. I never

would have guessed that. Yeah, he had during his heyday, I was a huge Simmons fan. I was enormous. Yeah. Because just because he did so many things that I didn't see other guys doing, like he was always great down two points with 16 seconds left or it's like, we need the ball back

or we'll foul, but let's try to see if we can get a steal first. And he would get the steal. Like he was kind of like a six, 10 drew holiday in a lot of ways. And, uh, it just felt like he was going to keep getting better as he developed more and more confidence in his shot. And whatever happened in that Atlanta series, I don't know, were there signs before that Atlanta series that it was headed that way? I think his free throw shooting had been getting worse. And the free throw shooting is often, I think,

a barometer of somebody's confidence in a lot of ways. And your willingness to go to the line. And so I think that there were some signs there. of somebody's confidence in a lot of ways, but like, and your willingness to go to the line. And I, so I think that there was some signs there. And obviously I think that that team had so much turmoil and I have to give credit to like Doc and Daryl because it's been a pretty smooth season. Like this is like, yeah, this,

this six or season, you know, they basically like with the exception of the, the hardened trade or the hardened Houston report that came out on Christmas Day before the Knicks game, there really hasn't been that many hysterics coming out of Sixers camp. And I think that there must have just been so much turmoil surrounding Ben and both with his medical stuff and also just off-court stuff

that it just kind of eroded his game. And I don't know if he's ever going to get it back into place like Brooklyn. When we were talking on the trade draft show that we did before the trade deadline, we were talking about he just seems to be a guy who needs to go to San Antonio or go somewhere

where basketball is not the primary thing that's going to be on the back page of a newspaper every day or going to have a lot of sports radio about it. Maybe you can just chill out a little bit. Yeah, or even if he had been just in the original trade and gone to Houston. Mm-hmm.

When, you know, it had been a three-way or something where he just didn't end up in Brooklyn. I don't think he likes basketball that much. Could be that. That's my take after watching him for six, seven years. I thought in retrospect, pretty telling. I can't believe this is turning into a Ben Simmons conversation. In retrospect, pretty telling when he just bagged on LSU that year.

Uh-huh. Right? He's just like, I'll see you guys later. And I don't know, the Atlanta thing, he overreacted to that series in a bunch of ways that makes me think he was kind of afraid to come back. And then it's being borne out with what we're watching in Brooklyn. I,

you just shouldn't be that bad of a free throw shooter if you're that coordinated. I can get it if you're like a giant center, you know, like somebody like Shaq, I get it. He's seven foot two and he just doesn't have the touch for it. And he just could never unlock it.

But when you're an incredibly coordinated athletic guy like that, to me, that's just practice. Like Giannis has willed himself to be better at all these different things. Right. And just to me, Simmons just doesn't have the same kind of will. Yeah.

And Giannis also doesn't mind looking bad at some things and then getting better in front of our eyes. And the weird thing, and that's what everybody, I think always had. Everybody will, we will be unpacking why he won't shoot threes for the rest of like our recorded time. Well, now he won't shoot twos.

Yeah. And now you can kind of see, not to get all body language doctor, which I know that you're the, you've got the degree, but like, especially at the end of the KatieD Kyrie era there you could see him like coming off like there was like that one

time he was coming off the court and he was claiming kind of to get gotten hit in the eye but he barely got touched in the face and then as he's walking off like none of his guys or none of the teammates are like shaking his hand or really acknowledging him and towards you know even last week I think

Jacques Vaughn was kind of like, we just basically have to like work around the fact that this guy is useless. You know, like this guy is basically unplayable with most of our other players. And it's a shame because if you had told me a couple of years ago, like what's an ideal situation for Ben Simmons,

I would say it's like a team like the way the Nets are currently constructed. Right. He should be the point center. With a lot of shooting around him and have Dorian Finney-Smith and Mikael Bridges and the Cams

like swarming around him and he plays point center and he runs the break and then gets in the lane and then hits the open three-point shooter. Like that seems like an ideal situation.

And also like a lack of like real egos on that team. Like he could maybe just be himself and not have to worry about being like living up to Kyrie and Kevin Duran or Joel Embiid's needs. But obviously it's not really working out. It's a shame he didn't get traded before the deadline. And I think they should have. And maybe there was just no market whatsoever,

but San Antonio would have been a nice one. Any of the bad teams, we only have a couple of them, but we think like, we've seen teams give up on high lottery guys, right? Like Darko got traded to Orlando, I remember, for a first rounder. We just saw it happen with Wiseman.

The Wiseman thing, I think they keep them for longer if the luxury tax piece of it wasn't such a disaster for them. It really did save them a shitload of money, But they did kind of give up on him too, to some degree, right? But they were like, we can't develop this kid the way he needs to be. He needs to go out and just be in Detroit and he can make 19 mistakes in a game and not get yanked. Right. We're the wrong team for this guy, but he still might be good. The Darko thing, Detroit was the wrong team for him, but it was also, he actually still might be good. The Darko thing, Detroit was the wrong team for him,

but it was also, he actually might not be good. And then it turned out he wasn't. Hashim Thabit was another one that it was pretty immediately he wasn't good, but then a couple of teams traded for him anyway. And we've seen this in the NBA. It's like, ah, I'll kick the tires on that guy. And the ones that usually make it, if they're going to redeem their career, you really have to have a real level of NBA talent and at least some sort of proof of concept, which we have with him. I look at San Antonio.

They lost 14 straight. Why not try to trade for him? This isn't like Fultz where it's like, we just never even saw it in Philly. And then there was the injuries and everything else. But Simmons was an all-star, all-NBA caliber player for several seasons. Oh, yeah. I think I voted for him for all-NBA, like, two years in a row, maybe.

No, there were a couple. I've said out loud that, like, there were years or at least stretches of time where, despite the fact that Embiid's obviously, like obviously one of the most beloved Philly athletes of all time, you can make the argument that building around Simmons makes more sense for a modern NBA team. That you have Simmons as the central playmaker with a bunch of guys around it. And it's been interesting watching Joel and James

kind of work with each other because there are times where James waves Embiid off and he has to go into the corner and it hardens floor. Embiid can get in the way. It can be really interesting. But it's going back to what you were saying about Simmons.

He needed to get what happened with Fultz. And Fultz is now in Orlando and is actually a really useful NBA player now. We're going to talk about him later with Cerruti. There's been a Fultz-a Fultz is now in Orlando and is actually like a really useful NBA player now. I can't, we're going to talk about him later with Cerruti. There's been a Fultz-a-sance.

I know. You know, swinging it back to Philly with Simmons though, what they gave up was Simmons, Curry, and two first round picks that I don't even think

were that dangerous. Like they're definitely picks, but they're not like, you know, unprotected 2020. At least my memory is that they're not. That shit turned out to be really good.

And there was other guys they could have gotten during that. They could have gotten McCollum last year with maybe something else, and maybe that would have helped them. Maybe that would have been a better situation for Ben. But ultimately, the rejuvenated, whatever this version is of Harden, is

just almost a miracle that that's what they ended up with when you're watching what's happening with Simmons in Brooklyn, where he's not even playing anymore. He's behind Sharp and Claxton now. I know. And I was just thinking about this the other day

because people are, when Harden wasn't playing very well or when it seemed like maybe he was a little bit past it, the Halliburton stuff came up over and over again. It was like, you guys could have had Halliburton. You guys could have. And it's like, I was thinking like, you guys could have had Halliburton. You guys could have...

And it's like, I was thinking like, you should be thankful we don't. Can you imagine Simmons on the Kings? We wouldn't have gotten Light the Beam. You know? Could you have had Halliburton?

Is that a thing that could have happened? I don't know. Was that definite or is that just people making that up? I never knew if that was true. There was a point where it was sort of just like the world is our oyster with Simmons.

And it's like, oh, we could have all these different combinations. And it seemed like the McCollum oyster with Simmons. And it's like, oh, we could have, we could have all these different like combinations. And like, it seemed like the McCollum thing was relatively real. That was real. I don't know if the Halliburton thing was real. Although like,

Simmons was definitely better than Sabonis a couple of years ago. It wasn't that out of the question. Well, Sabonis was another one. That was the one, that was the trade I thought they should do. People are like, why would they do that? They haven't beat.

It's like, because he's a fucking asset. Yeah. You can have him at least for this year and then flip them into something else. That was before we realized Harden was going to blow up things in Brooklyn. Let's take a quick break. I have some more Philly stuff for you with,

especially Embiid. I want to talk about him. So quick break. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.

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that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. So your guy, Joel, two-time MVP runner-up. His GM actually is doing him a disservice now with some of the PR campaign stuff. They should actually do the more stealth stuff. Do you guys actually communicate about this?

Is this just a silent, like a cold war between the two of you? No, I've made fun of him on text. Okay. I like Daryl. Daryl's my guy. But I will openly make fun of him and I will criticize trades and mix.

Because he also blames the Boston sports media mafia for keeping him. That was ridiculous. I think even he would admit that's ridiculous. And being in Harden together are almost 55 points a game, which is Shaq Kobe territory. Again, the stats are weird this year, so it's almost hard to compare

errors anymore. 16.4 rebounds and 15 assists a game. Embiid's doing a 33-10, and more importantly, is playing. He's 45 out of 57 games, and if you go back, this is really year's 45 out of 57 games.

And if you go back, this is really year six of him being relatively durable, right? He misses 15, 16 games a year. But he's playing basically 75, 80% of the games. That alone feels like a massive win, right? If I had told you that six years ago, I don't think you would have believed that, correct? No, but I do think the bigger thing

is like him not getting like a broken nose in the playoffs. You know what I mean? Like his durability has been improving over the course of his career, but I still think

he's weirdly susceptible to these bad luck injuries. Fluky bad luck injuries that especially kick in during the playoffs. But I have a lot of, I think he's been managing his time

pretty well this year. He says he might not go to the All-Star game to do some rest on his foot that's been bothering him. Harden's obviously didn't get picked inexplicably. I don't really spend that much time thinking about All-Star, but that does strike me as pretty crazy.

It seems worse now than it did three weeks ago, I think. Yeah. But yeah, like I would love for... I was talking about this with Raheem on Philly Special today, actually, is like whether or not there are fewer of those like Warriors-style blowouts where you get to rest your stars in the second half, in the fourth quarter.

Because it always feels like whenever we go up 25, something happens and Embiid has to come back into the game and he gets closer to that 35-minute playing time. But I thought Doc's been done a decent job managing him this year,

ultimately. I wish we had a better plan for backup center, but that is a war that Daryl Morey has won. He has just decided that the backup center position is not super important.

And it can be this combination of Deadman and Montrez and Dyle Scott. Yeah, I know. The Celtics Heat Series last year was dying for him to shoot. Please, please take one. Take one, Deadman. Yeah, there's been some weird roster stuff with them. I'll never for the rest of my life understand the Tybalt thing.

I just don't get it. That guy's clearly good. He's clearly going to have a moment on a real team. And it was the type of guy that they needed. They had so much offense. There were some really good advanced stats when him and Embiid were on the floor together too, that whatever, Embiid has good advanced stats

with a lot of people. But I just, I think it's impossible that he wasn't an important piece for him. Maybe a lot of people, but I just, I think it's impossible that he wasn't an important piece for him. Maybe I overrate him. I don't think I do. Portland fans are already in love with him.

And I think that there's, it's just the wrong coach for that guy. Like, Doc's not a developmental coach. I think Maxie popped despite Doc in some ways. Like, Maxie got so good so fast

that it was impossible to keep him on the bench, really. Honestly, that was Rondo too. That's what happened with Rondo. He begrudgingly, begrudgingly, begrudgingly started playing Rondo more. And when Rondo was a rookie, he clearly was good. And they just didn't play him that much.

And then second year, same thing. It's like, we need more. Let's bring in Sam Cassell. I was like, Rondo's good. Just fucking ride Rondo. I'd say it's a doc blind spot. It's an ex-NBA player. I don't trust young guys thing that I just don't

understand. Yeah, and he brings his guys like Montrez is a good example of somebody that he has literally failed with before and was taking up a roster spot. And it's like, you're telling me that there couldn't have been 10 more minutes and 30 more games of figuring out if Paul Reed could learn how to play team defense and not get in incredible foul trouble instantaneously.

When they play Reed and McDaniels together now, it's like a pretty good, long, athletic, rangy second unit. So I hope that's what we see in the playoffs and it's not like Deadman and playing P.J. Tucker for 41 minutes. One of the weirdest things, and this ties into how we started the conversation. So you have Embiid who's by any calculation, one of the best five guys in the league right now.

You have a team that I think if you were just saying most talented rosters, I think they would be in like the top, top seven or eight by what, however you wanted to do it. They're in there. They're not that far behind the Celtics. I mentioned the records. Three off, right? Yeah, the Celtics are 42-17 and Philly's

38-19, but they play two Saturdays from now in Philly, right? So that could bring them a game closer. And yet I go on FanDuel and I look at the division odds. Philly's 11-1 to win the division. Did you see Philly's schedule

after the All-Star break? I know, it gets harder. I get it. It's just 11-1 seems aggressive. I wouldn't say we had a cupcake schedule these last couple weeks, but we have something like, it's like Grizzlies heat twice,

Celtics, Maluka, or something like that coming out of the all-star break. Like it's, it gets pretty gnarly. You mean the artists formerly known as the Memphis Grizzlies, the post accident Grizzlies, even though there is no accident, the post Shannon sharp Grizzlies.

So that's like, that was like ground zero for the flipping of the of the season for them yeah I just think 11-1 seems pretty high for me

they're 14-1 to win the title there's some good advanced stats with them with the when they play the Tucker

Harden Maxie and Bede Harris or if you flip Melton for Maxie it's still pretty good it's not great but they're still like

plus 8 plus 9 with the per 100. They got 15 left on the road. And then, you know, I think they played the Maxie thing right because there's a world with a different GM, maybe if you have Brian Colangelo, and we talked about it when we did our trade deadline show that you just say, fuck

it, and you take Maxie and you take Harris and you trade for Bradley Beal. Right. It's like, look at this trade. And you make a fantasy trade, which they, they kind of resisted. They're going to be an interesting spot with Maxie at some point, but I don't think they're there yet to get the rookie, the guy in the rookie contract. He's, I mean, he's the 21st pick. So he's barely making anything to be like, Hey dude, now you're going to come off the

bench. Right. You're not even going to start for us. So they got to navigate that. He's barely making anything. He'd be like, hey dude, now you're going to come off the bench. Right. You're not even going to start for us. So they got to navigate that. But for the most part, it feels like they played everything pretty well except for the table thing.

His confidence has gone up and down. He's spoken a little bit about that. I think especially since he's been kind of relegated to the bench. But again, like in comparison to Sixer seasons past where you've got, it's well documented how crazy previous Sixers seasons.

This has been a really serene season. Yeah. All the drama that happened in the NBA, the Sixers pretty much escaped it. Harden's thing got swept under the rug on the day of the report itself. And Embiid seemed relatively happy. Even Thibel, who was like,

oh, I play with more freedom in Portland already. It's like that stuff didn't really make any waves. So I think that all in all, it shows that Doc and Daryl have done a good job managing the season. So who are you afraid of? From beneath us or above us?

Just in the East. Who's the team? Who's your kryptonite team? Celtics? Yeah. The Celtics. Because of the Winks. Yeah. We never seem to be able to beat them.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel really confident. I'm not worried about Cleveland. I'm not worried about Miami. I'm not worried about anybody really beneath them. The Bucs, obviously, this 11-game run is pretty terrifying once they've gotten Middleton back.

The Cleveland thing was interesting because you would think on paper, they have some size, they could throw some stuff in and be, this should be okay, right? And then you watch it and it just felt like he was doing whatever he wanted and the team, you're also making threes,

which I think, you know, that's always good. Yeah, they're actually like 65% from three. Yeah. I think heading into the All-Star break, I just think Milwaukee to me is the team. I just think they're in pole position. The record may not say it yet, but the fact that they're finally right in the ship.

Middleton has, you know, I was worried about him, and it was like, is this going to end up? He looks okay now. Holiday looks amazing. Crowder will give them more minutes and it's just, they're kind of rounding into shape and we do this every year where during these little, you know, like it's January, it's like, oh, this team. But it's

really March is when you start to know for sure and it feels like Milwaukee is rounding into shape. I still think the road goes through them. The East is a little bit better off, I think, for this because they can kind of

play themselves into their peak position whereas in the West, I feel like last night, watching that Lakers game last night, I was like,

I mean, it's not exactly a playoff game but it had playoff game implications where it's like those two teams are essentially

in must-win situations and yeah, the East is a little bit more settled business. I think that those top teams can kind of cruise into the playoffs for the most part. Cleveland, a couple things with them. They never fixed that swing spot. And I don't know what they were thinking with the Kevin Love piece of the whole thing.

Yeah, I was going to say. I thought that was really weird. Now they're just going to buy him out? Why didn't they trade him? Well, I saw that they were 9-3 in the game since he's been out of the rotation. But I guess that's just like... He couldn't make a shot.

But he must have a second spot he's going to go to where he knows he's going to get a little bit of playing time if he asks for the buyout and they're trying to do him a solid. I don't know where that would be. Why wouldn't they have traded him? I don't understand it. Especially because they could have put him and Levert together

and maybe gone and get some Utah stuff. Or maybe, you know, we'll take Westbrook back and give us one of your picks. However, I don't know. I just can't believe that was the best outcome. I think he made $28 million. I thought he was good for them in the beginning of the season. I'm not really totally sure what happened.

I'm not a giant bigger staff guy. FYI. I would like to go on the record with that one. That team does some stuff especially at the end of the games that I just find confusing. I find it hard to believe that he's not one of the best nine guys. He's only 34. It's not like

he's 40. He's going to end up on another team and I think he'll end up being good for playoff Team X who, who like would the buyout rules? Like, is he, could he, is he allowed to become like a warrior or are they just too,

too up against it to, to get somebody like him? No, I think he'd go anywhere. It's just that I know he's going to fucking go to Miami. I'm just, I like, I just know that's where he's going to end up.

The fucking zombie heat are going to get him. And the Heat, they're going to be the first team ever to win 50 games and have a negative point differential. I just can't stand them. They drive me crazy. And I know he's going to go there and he'll be rejuvenated and he'll lose eight pounds

and be like, oh, Kevin Love's looking like 2013 Kevin Love. It's like, great. Are you more excited by Kevin Love on the Heat or Westbrook on the Clippers? Well, that just shouldn't happen. They can't do that. There's no team for him. The only team,

the team that should actually sign him is the Bulls because they're going nowhere anyway and their offense is a disaster and they can't shoot as it is. So at least make yourself even weirder and just bring him in and just go haywire. It's not like they can do any worse. Just play four guards around Vooch

or something. Yeah. Who would be the most bummed out fan base if you're like, my team has signed Russell Westbrook? I mean, I thought it was going to be Utah, honestly. Because they're just two together. He just decides to play? I was thinking OKC

if it was like the OKC we feel bad bringing him back move. Oh yeah. And the OKC fans are like, wait, what? It's kind of like when we brought back Iverson and it was like oh no. This is awkward. Running the big five minute montage. Alright, so to put a bow on this Philly thing.

You're not totally there yet. No, I'm like as there as I've been in years. Okay. Yeah. I was talking with Raheem about this today. But you've allowed yourself to think about the finals and shit like that? Oh, yeah. You've gone there mentally?

Oh, yeah. Oh, this is great. Yeah. Yeah. This is great because you can give me a middle finger again, or this is great because you like my passion? No, this is good. I'm just, after you basically blew a Super Bowl,

fucking left one on the table, second half, four touchdown drives in a row. What the fuck was that? And then your coach gets hired? I'm still mad. Million dollar picks, losing season for me because your team just decided to just throw away defense

for three hours. My deepest apologies and I'm sure everybody in Philadelphia shares my sentiment when we say, we're really sorry for you, Bill. And then the guy gets hired.

It's not my fucking problem. Four days later, you're just like, what just happened? How did we just completely lose the ability to stop any first downs anything um yeah so i i was talking with raheem today about some of our favorite

not the best but our favorite sixers teams over the years and you know he we were talking about um you know the sort of more earlier iteration of the process sixers like when it was and beat simmons sarich like uh volts that team that was supposed to be big and that was like the of the process Sixers like when it was Embiid, Simmons, Sarich, like Foltz, that team that was supposed to be big and that was like the kids. I was a big fan of obviously the Iverson stuff,

but, you know, even like some of the Drew Holiday, Andre Godala teams. But we were saying this is like kind of kind of like the best we've been in a couple of years.

Like this is the most solid. Yeah, well, the city, like I think that this is the best Sixers team we have had in a few years. Since Butler for sure. What does that do to the Eagles? I thought we were talking about the Sixers and whether we were going to the finals.

No, but we just did. What, did you black out for two minutes? No, I know. I thought you wanted to go back to the Sixers. No, I want to know more about the Eagles. Oh, so you want to know why Steichen and Gannon got hired or how we're feeling about the Eagles? Do you feel like you left one

on the table? No, it was Mahomes. I thought you were being facetious. It was fucking Patrick Mahomes. What do you want? Yeah, because you didn't hit him once. If you watch the Eagles all year, that's exactly how Gannon plays defense. He has this soft shell and lets people go after them.

You're just mad he was a million dollar pick. Soft shell, all right. Would you have, what would you have done if you could do it over again at 24-21 when you're kicking a field goal there? Oh, I would have gone for it. Now knowing that, you know what I mean? You would have pressed the gas down.

Yeah, the more I thought about that, I wish I had in the moment. And A.J. Brown has said... What does 27-21 do for you? A.J. Brown was like, I knew something was going to happen when we didn't go for it. And then we kicked the field goal. He's like, I didn't feel good about that. What was your Super Bowl party?

My Super Bowl party was in this fucking hotel room. Oh, you watched by yourself during British COVID. By yourself watching the Eagles basically just get annihilated in the second half. Yeah. That sucks. And you didn't like playing.

I heard you. Oh, yeah. I thought it was okay. I just don't think it was... It wasn't fun enough for what I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be more like... A little bit more fast and furious, like kind of tongue-in-cheek.

It was really serious about hostage situations. I loved it and I watched it twice. Did you really? Yeah. On demand? I liked it. I did. I bought it on Amazon and then my dad was here and banged out most of the movie with him again. I thought it was good. Well, they're making a sequel with

the Mike Coulter character. They should. Yeah. You know, what's really happening here. And I don't think it was a big enough story. Um, Butler has kind of grabbed the reins from an aging Liam Neeson. He's just kind of taken,

taken those roles like 10 years ago. That's a Liam Neeson movie. Oh yeah. But he's too old for it now. It's called nonstop. It's just basically is. So Butler is Oh, yeah. It's just this. But he's too old for it now. It's called Non-Stop. It's just being who he basically is. Yeah.

So Butler is now in there and he's, you know, he's been test driving a few different things including our beloved Den of Thieves which he did on the rewatchables. But now Butler's

kind of the guy for those movies. But I really want to know who the next wave is. So you want to know who Butler Jr. is? Yeah. Coulter's in the conversation.

I think it's somebody that we might in the conversation. I think it's somebody that we might not be expecting. I think it could be like a, like just Chris Evans out of nowhere. Okay. Or like one of the Helmsworths. What about, why not Ruffalo?

Ruffalo's not big enough. You need a little size. I need to feel like if I crash in an island, my guy might be able to win a fight in a cabin. Yeah. You know? With a a fight in a cabin. Yeah. You know?

With a bunch of- Which Liam Neeson could do. Filipino gangsters, yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised you didn't like it. I like that movie. I like Megan too. I liked Megan.

Yeah. Yeah, Megan was fun. There's been some decent movies so far this year. Yeah, I love Dump You, Ari. Let's bring in Saruti for a little Orlando Magic talk before we go. You want to stay for this, CR? Of course. Two scientists. One movement disorders coordinator. 58 answered questions. Two focused ultrasound procedures. One specially developed helmet.

Thousands of high-intensity focused ultrasound waves. Zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too.

Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example.

Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinx.

So Rudy, your team has a winning record for like the last 32 games. Something like that. I have it written down. Since December 7th, you're 19 and 15. Four games over 500. Kind of lurking for the 10th seed. Yeah, I mean, they've started 5-20. And here's the thing.

It's obviously a disastrous start. But if you told me before the season that the record would be what it is right now, that's kind of where I thought they'd be at. I think they'd be an interesting team kind of pushing for the play and probably not get there. But, I mean, the difference has been just,

you talked about it before, Markel Fultz, man, he's good. Let's do it. He's really good. Let's have it. Let's have the combo right now. Let's have the conversation. The discussion is hard to have

because on the one hand, you go, if I told you in 2019 when that trade happened, that Markel Fultz would be significantly more valuable than Ben Simmons in 2023, like you tell me I was high, but that trade also got Philly Tyrese back to you. So it's not actually really a total loss, right? Like you guys are probably okay with that.

I know MB the other night was like, oh, I think we gave up on him too soon. He had to leave Philly anyway. There's no way it was going to be figured out there, I think, and Orlando was the perfect spot for him. But he's kind of like the glue that holds this whole team together. And whenever people say, hey, Orlando,

they're just like a guard away or they're a point guard away from being this team. I'm like, we already have the guy. He's the guy. They just need more scoring around him. So I listen Fultz, the whole renaissance back, man. He's he's listen, he's not going to be an all-star. He's not going to be some incredible shooter. He's a really good basketball player.

The Fultz Assance, you know, I listen, I'm older and I forget stuff. I totally forgot the Maxi pick was from that trade. CR. Yeah. So you can't eat you. So now you can root for Fultz. You got Maxie out of it. This is great.

Everybody wins on this. No, I really am happy for Fultz. I was pretty devastated by how that all happened. And there was a cruelty to what happened to his career in Philadelphia that I felt really bad about. And almost like it was not like there was like, we all bore responsibility for it, but I was like, damn,

I wish this kid had like an environment where he, where he did not like feel like he had the yips like this. And it's, this is the example, example of what we were talking about with Simmons, where it's like, maybe he should just go somewhere like a San Antonio. It's like Markel getting to go.

He obviously got injured a couple of times with Orlando, but he's obviously thriving in an environment where there's not like a San Antonio. It's like Markel getting to go. He obviously got injured a couple of times with Orlando, but he's obviously thriving in an environment where there's not like a huge amount of pressure on the basketball team, right? I watched the Chicago game and he almost had a triple-double.

No turnovers, too. But it wasn't even like he was dominating. He was just really good putting up stats. And it's like, man, this guy really figured it out. The difference has been like the five and 20 start was like, they were like, all right, we don't have a point guard really other than Suggs.

And then he got hurt. So it's like Franz and Paolo, like this is your show, like make it happen. And obviously they're not like maybe in two, three, four years, they can hand the keys over the offense to those two guys. I hope they can at some point and just be this incredibly weird team to play against but right now that was just it wasn't it wasn't going to happen so as soon as faults came back those guys go to their secondary playmaker roles he's putting them in better spots to score the chemistry and the thing about the

magic too is like there is there's no better vibe team in the league right now i don't know if you've watched i mean you probably the local broadcast like you could say whatever you want about cole anthony and like what his role or what he thinks his role should be but that dude is fun to watch he loves playing with those guys they love bowl bowl who has kind of come back down to earth just a little bit the last couple weeks but there was a time when it was like is this the most talented dude is this like I call them Walmart Wim Bon Yama like he was yeah he's that dude uh he's a disaster defensively but he's fun to watch how's Mosley is he your coach so I, you know, I don't want to say like anti Mosley, but there was some like really bad stuff at the beginning of the year.

But again, I think you could say a lot of that was like, they just didn't have a point guard. They didn't have a guy who they could trust with ball in his hands in any like meaningful possession or way. So like, yeah, there would be really stretches where they looked awesome,

but then they would do like, you know, have like a disaster start to a third quarter or the substitutions would be terrible. But I kind of think that was partially to him. Learn like what, who's good on this team. Who can I trust? And I've kind of come around around on him like you can say what you want about the x's and o's stuff or whatever they love mosley and you go back even dallas like luca loved mosley all those maverick players loved mosley and it's the same

way in orlando right now that those guys they just they just trust him and he he's developed a lot of these guys he developed helped develop bowl bowl he's helped Paulo, obviously. Franz is a totally different guy. Wendell Carter Jr., I mean, that's the funny thing about that Boots trade, and I've always liked Boots, but they got Franz, another first-round pick, and they got Wendell Carter Jr. in that trade. You wouldn't trade Wendell Carter Jr. straight up for Boots.

That was highway robbery. That was an incredible trade. But at the point of that trade, Wendell Carter Jr. was like a throwaway. He was considered a bust, and they've completely, basically basically redone his career. And he's a valuable, valuable dude. You asked me, Bill, I think the end of last year,

would I trade Cole Anthony, Wendell Carter Jr. in a first for eight? And I was like, no, I wouldn't. I think Wendell Carter Jr. is that good. And I think Mosley deserves a lot of credit for getting these guys to sort of like buy in, play well. Yeah, it's going to be kind of erratic night to night, but they're fun, man. They're a fun team to watch. The Suggs can't tell if that's a miss yet,

but you wouldn't call it a hit either. He's not a miss. He's going to be fine. It's just whether or not he's never going to be, like I said before the draft, like if you told me he was true holiday, I know that was probably like people thought he'd be better than that. I would take, I'd snatch your hand off for that now. He's really going to be like I said before the draft. Like if you told me he was true holiday, I know that was probably like people thought he'd be better than that. I would take I snatch your hand off for that.

Now. He's really good defensively. He's got good instincts. He just can't. He just the shooting is just it's doesn't get hurt as soon as he starts to put together like two or three weeks of good play. Because I loved him coming out of Gonzaga. But then again, I I'm not like a scout.

I just was like, this kid seems like the kind of dude you want to build a team on. No, I mean, Magic fans, I mean, we thought we hit the jackpot when obviously Toronto took Scotty Barnes. And, you know, now I would argue

that Orlando got the best player out of all three of those guys in Franz Wagner. So I'm happy about it. But Suggs, Suggs, he is when he's right.

He's an elite defensive player. The question is, like in that offense, he kind of has to be a knockdown shots guy. And he to be a knockdown shots guy, and he's not a knockdown shots guy. And I don't think he ever is going to be. The shot doesn't look...

He doesn't look confident enough. It's really shrieky. There will be games this year where he'll carry them. I forget who it was earlier this season, but he absolutely dominated in the fourth quarter and single-handedly... I forget who the heck it was against. Now that I'm blanking on it.

But it was a good team, good playoff team. And he was the dude down the stretch. But there just aren't enough examples of that. But I think at its very worst, he will be a good player, a role player on a really good team because of his defense. It's funny that two things that usually go the opposite way with the Orlando Magic,

with the history of their franchise, actually went their way. One was the Vucevic trade, which now looks like one of the best trades of the last 10 years. Usually you're on the opposite side of that. And then that Franz Wagner-Kaminga decision, right?

Where it's like... Can you imagine Franz on the Warriors? You're the team that ends up with Kaminga and then it doesn't turn out and you have the talented guy who never quite makes it and the Warriors have Franz and you're like,

oh my God, he's so good on the Warriors I can't believe we could have had him and that's just the next 10 years of your life and this is the one time it didn't happen so Rudy he would be unbelievable on the Warriors too that if I'm a Warriors fan I'm so bummed about that I mean Kameka might still end up being awesome and I know Bill like you're a big man like yeah he's obviously got a lot of potential but Franz in that in that system like he doesn't really need the ball but he can he could knock down shots he's a verse he's 610 he's a versatile defender he is the perfect player for the warriors he would have been playing i think legitimately meaningful minutes last year

and he it would be certainly this year for them uh you know you could talk about the wise man thing but that's the guy that they really missed out on because you know at that point in the draft you know and that the weird thing about it was when when the magic took him you know coming out of michigan he was kind of like all right he's like a high upside three and d guy that's kind of what everybody said and when he was on uh he came on slow news day with kev clark and i and i kind of asked him about that i was like did you read your scouting report when you were coming out of like michigan like were you just like these guys don't even know how i play or is it like did you develop into this and he's like no like i went to michigan because i needed to

learn how to play like American basketball. And, you know, so I think he has the best of like that kind of Euro. Like he plays that playmaker position, like the old Mon. Like, I think he's kind of like a big Mono Ginobili.

That's what I think his ceiling is. Wow. 6'10 Mono Ginobili. And he plays like that. Giant Ginobili. Yeah. And then Russillo the other day just tweeted out that he thinks,

you know, obviously Paulo could be big Tatum. So if you have big Mono and big Tatum, like 2027, are we hanging the banners? Like when? How soon? We actually we quietly suspended Rosillo this week for a week. Send him to Utah. There's always this team during the last like 25, 30 games of the year. there's the young team that becomes like the everyone's all in. Oh, that team has a bright... It was New Orleans. Right, yeah.

KOC had the bright future suns that year. Then they did the bubble. We've just seen this before. It really does feel like it's going to be Orlando. Then you go to the summer where they have the Chicago pick. They're going to have their own pick. They're going to have cap space. They have foundational guys. I feel. They're going to have their own pick. They're going to have cap space.

They have foundational guys. And I feel like they're going to be leading the most podcasts out of any non-contender, like in that June, July, August range. It'll be just a lot of Orlando. Just really smiling right now. The listeners can't see it. It's a nervous energy, though,

because they'll find a way to screw this up. I just know it. They're going to have cap space this summer. The thing is, I don't know who you even go after. There's been talk of Chris Middleton. I don't know, man. What they need is they need a guy. They need a two guard who can make shots.

If they can just somehow get Norman Powell on their team or somebody like that or a better buddy healed or somebody like that, because they don't really need a point guard. Bradley Beal? I was going to say Beal. You got the assets. Yeah. You got this stuff.

Bill was like last year. You guys should go in for, for, um, for Mitchell. I still feel that way. I thought, I think you should have done it. Mitchell would have been,

you would have been like a six seed. Would we be the cat? We would be this, the calves. I just think the timelines are a little bit off. I think, I think Cleveland was a little bit more ready. I don't think,

I think we're still like a couple of years from that and i'm okay with that the question is like i didn't want to trade for van vliet what are you giving up assets for that i would i take him on my team sure i take him on the magic tomorrow just sign a perfect fit yeah sign him this off season if you want to but i don't know i'm still i'm still i've been i've been hurt too many times in the past that like when you gave out the over i think you were still in house hall gave out the over this year i was like it's house. Hall gave out the over this year. I was like, it's 100% under. Like it's 100%. This is what's going to happen.

And then they started five and 20. I'm like, there you go. But no, the vibe, like I said, the vibes are, the vibes are all good. We just got, I don't know if you've seen this guys, but the magic, I think it's Habershaw who like tracks,

who gets the worst officiated games of any team. Oh my God. This is not the magic. The magic are by far the worst. They actually have the most rookie refs that have wrecked their

game this year. This isn't the Jastrzemski pod, man. Come on. I'm just saying, like, show us some respect next year. The record would

probably be better if we had some better officiating. Steve, what would JJ sound like if he was doing an Orlando local sports pod? About the refs?

Yeah, this is Brad from Kissimmee St. Cloud. I don't know, bro. Another game where we didn't get any calls. I'm stuck in Epcot Center traffic. And again, Franz Wagner is not getting the whistles. What would we call the Orlando sports pod? Man.

Like the kingdom? The Mouse House? Yeah. Magic City. Yeah, that's good. So one more thing on Chicago. I think this is a really important storyline. It's a top four protected pick. So if you're just going into the

season, you're like, what's the ideal spot for them to land in the standings? You would say like somewhere between seven and nine. Not good enough for them to jump, right? And just kind of stay right now. They have the seventh worst record. They're 26 to 32. The Lakers are 27 and 32 and trying to win.

The wizards are 27 and 30 trying to win. Every team above them is trying to win. Unless you think Utah might zag the other way. And I have no idea what they're trying to do anymore. Okay. So he seems like they're trying to win. So you might end up with like the seventh pick in the draft and then Orlando has the fifth worst pick.

The top four are locked. We have a trauma for Wimbanyama. Houston, 13 wins. Spurs, 14. Pistons, 15. Charlotte, 17. Kudos to San Antonio. They've lost 14 straight. Great job, guys. Well done. And every night, all the guys on the opposing

team go up and kiss Pop's ring, and they're just like, oh, Pop. It's so great. I would never tank. I would never do that. They're literally throwing games. Trades Yakovi immediately turns into like a 30-10 guy. He killed the magic the other night. Oh, my God. Well, so

anyway, Orlando's five, and then it's Indy and Chicago, basically six, seven. And I don't see the Chicago thing turning around. So there's a world where you have two top seven picks. The problem is they have too many young guys already on this team. Are they going to bring two more lottery picks? Yeah, but that's trade assets though.

You can trade one of those. But you certainly aren't going to be able to trade up for Scoot or Wambayama. So that's obviously, then it. No, I know. You can trade one of those. But you certainly aren't going to be able to trade up for Scoot or Wombadyama. So that's obviously us. Then it's like, all right, who's available? You know, the pie in the sky guy for the last two years was, all right, could you get SGA? Now that ship has sailed completely. So I don't know who the guy is.

I don't, like, Beal doesn't get me excited. It just doesn't. I'm sorry. And I know that for Magic, for a small market team, obviously, Beal would be fine. They'd be good. But I just don't know if I'd... Maybe I'm being too... I don't know. I'm

expecting too much because even the Mitchell thing, I'm like, I don't know. Let's wait and see what we can do better. Let's wait and see if we can do better. And we're probably not going to be able to do better. Keep your powder dry and be the guy who's there for Luka when he gets bored of what's going on at Dallas. Reunite him with Coach Mosley. There you go. CR. Reunite him with Coach Mosley. Oh, I like it. CR.

Reunite him with Jamal Mosley. Jason Gallagher's going to be so mad. Oh, Jamal Mosley. I'm just saying. I like the CR. It's like hiring someone's uncle. You know what I mean? He gets hired at Kyrie. Yeah.

Just kind of sit, put there with two blast buttons unbuttoned, just batting your eyelashes, waiting for Luca. I mean, you can't ask for a better situation than having Kyrie join Luca's team. Yeah. If down the road, if it's like,

we need this guy in Florida. I was going to say, could it be Dame time? Again, Steve doesn't want to, he doesn't want to stunt Markel's development. No, I mean,

but he could play with Markel, though, couldn't he? He could. Or am I crazy? No, he could. Markel's a good guard. But what are you trying to do? Are you trying to just be interesting? Because that's not... You're not winning a title in the next couple years,

even if you bring Dame in. And by the time Paulo and Franz are actually ready to go, Dame's probably done. So I don't... I love Dame. We'll cross him off. How about Trey Young? Absolutely not. No fucking way. Absolutely not. Zero chance. I want to do a segment on Rosillo, although we get don't you know i love dame i don't know if we'll cross them off how about trey young absolutely no no fucking way not yeah i want to do a a segment on rassilo although we get accused of being too

negative about this of like guys were like the perception of this guy and then who he actually is like are completely off because i think i think trey is one i think trey you go oh we got a superstar like he's our whatever he can help us get to where we want to i think anyone that has trey is just going to be in this purgatory situation where they're going to be in the play-in for however long they have them i don't want i argued about this with jj about whether they would trade brunson and stuff for trey and jj's like we do that in a second bro i was like i don't know i don't know if you'd want to do that yeah maybe there's not the trade no chance i'm a big fan of just building organically and stacking picks and trying I was like, I don't know. I don't know if you'd want to do that. Yeah, maybe there's not the trade. No chance.

I'm a big fan of just building organically and stacking picks and trying to figure it out because we've seen it work. Oklahoma City did it. It probably would have worked in Philly if you'd gotten one more pick differently and if the ringer hadn't kind of blown up their front office that one summer when they had the 10th pick.

Yeah, consider how many swings in the high lottery they had to come out of it with essentially just Embiid at this point. It's pretty amazing. Yeah, it's kind of impossible. Yeah. I would love Jordan Poole. I would love Jordan Poole, but that's obviously not.

He's kind of like the chucker that they need. Jordan Poole. But that's not going to happen now. I don't know. I don't see the guy out there right now. So I'm with you. I would just be patient. Hey, I love CR's Luka take.

And I think this should be a running bit. Is Luka to the Magic Watch? Listen, another thing. Foreigners love Disney World. That's what I was going to say. That's proven concept. Can you see? How quickly after he gets traded to the Magic

does Luka get arrested at the International Pavilion of Epcot Center for doing the drinking around the world thing that Alex Morgan got picked out for? Luka and the Magic would be incredible. In local news, Luka Doncic arrested in the world of Canada where he was drinking beer styles. What a bizarre century for the Magic, though. You figure it starts with this.

They're going to have Duncan, T-Mac, and Grant Hill. That's how the century starts, right? That was a real thing that was in the air for a while. And they only get two of the three, but Grant Hill's already hurt and barely lasts and never plays. And then they give away Tracy McGrady with one of the worst trades of this century.

Just an absolute awful trade. In the moment, it was bad. And then this rollercoaster ride with Dwight Howard. And then you make this crazy 14 Dwight Howard trade where nobody's happy at the end of that trade, except for somehow Orlando, because you got Vucevic. You ride him for as long as possible. Then you flip Vucevic into these amazing assets and you're back. That's right.

It took us a decade, but the Vuce trade has finally paid off. Seriously. And that was like, you think like you turned Dwight Howard basically into seven years of Vuce. Two playoff appearances, an eighth and a seventh and an eighth seed. One win against the Bucs and one win against the Raptors,

who both wanted to win the title, by the way. But then you flip him into Carter and Franz and whatever this Bulls pick is. That's a pretty good outcome for a trade as weird as this. Rudy, we're rooting for you. CR, I'm worried that you took the Eagles Super Bowl loss a little

too well. What do you mean? I'm a little alarmed. I don't know. You seem very resigned to it. No. First of all, it was very sad, but it doesn't change how I felt about that football team, which I love't know. You seem very resigned to it. No. First of all, it was very sad, but it doesn't change how I felt about that football team, which I love that team. And I just feel like we got Jalen Hurts for the next 10 years. I'm actually pretty excited.

This is the best young team in football. So it's the beginning of the journey. Real quick, though, because this is... I know we talked about this on Resilla with Albert Breer, and it's like the thing. You got to pay Hertz this summer right yes yeah and it but then they're doing they're handling it well where they're just like this isn't

a discussion there's there's this is not about a negotiation like we're just going to do this so yeah if I'm Hertz I'm like all right I want Kyler Murray money like I'm better than Kyler Murray they'll figure it out I think they'll figure it out I hate saying stuff like this because it's so hacky,

but Hurts seems like an awesome guy. Yeah. He just seems like the kind of guy who if you were on his football team, you'd be like, I fucking love playing with that guy. His performance in the Super Bowl is going to be really underrated

because it was all about Mahomes and Kelsey and Andy and yada yada, but Hurts put up a historic Super Bowl performance. And on that last Philly drive when he went in for the two-point conversion and led them down the field, you didn't become a believer. I don't know what to tell you. I also never knew

that that was called an octopus until that night. I feel like I cover sports for a living. I've never heard that phrase before. Yeah, there was... People tried to get the Hurts should have won the MVP going narrative the next day, which as you know, if you lose the Super Bowl, you can't be my MVP.

You could throw for 900 yards. I just feel like the winner of the team should win the MVP. It's one of my old school. Not going to waver from that one. But Hurts was the best guy in that game, it felt like, for most of the game. Mahomes, the one scramble on his alleged bad ankle

for 30 yards. Yeah. That was pretty great. But his touchdowns ankle for 30 yards. Yeah. That was pretty great. But his touchdowns, the guys were wide open. Yeah. I mean, like they cover the guys next year.

If you're in the Super Bowl again, cover the guys when they're wide open. That would be my advice. All right. So Rudy, congrats on the magic. CR, worse than luck with the Sixers.

And I'll see you on the rewatchables feed. Goodbye. Later. and the magic. CR, uh, worst of luck with the Sixers. And, uh, and I'll see you on the Rewatchables feed. Goodbye. Later. Our golf podcast is called Fairway Rowan. It is hosted by

Joe House and Nathan Hubbard, two people who have been on this podcast many times. The golf season is heating up right now. Last week, they covered the

Waste Management Phoenix Open. This week, the Genesis, whatever the hell that's called, they covered the Waste Management Phoenix Open. This week, the Genesis, whatever the hell that's called, they play it in LA at the Riviera. Tiger Woods is going to be there as always. It is, you know, between Phoenix and LA, this is the official start of the golf season.

So you can hear their recap on Sunday night coming off the Riv. And then later this week, they dove into the Netflix show. I watched three episodes of the Netflix show. I watched three episodes of the Netflix show. The Brooks show was kind of fun, but for the most part, it reinforced the fact that golfers are just boring. But there was some stuff as somebody who loves golf. I did learn a couple of things. I want to get through the whole season before I decide whether it's worth watching. In the meantime, you can hear Hubbard and House breaking it down next week.

So there you go. Fairway Rollin'. You can find it on The Ringer Podcast Network. Upper Canada College inspires boys from senior kindergarten to year 12 to find their passions and realize their potential. An IB World School, UCC offers a supportive environment, cutting-edge facilities, and a best-in-Canada financial assistance program. UCC, a place where tradition, excellence, and innovation meet.

Learn more at our open house events on October 15th and 16th. Register now at causeandeffect.ucc.on.ca. All right, Michael Pena from the Ringers here. He wrote a great piece about Kawhi this week. They're playing tonight. We're taping this during the day. So if anything crazy happens to that game, don't blame us. So Kawhi, you feel like he's back.

You made the case. This is back. Kawhi is back. Do not give up on Kawhi. One of the best five players in the league. One of the best five players in the league is one of the best five players in the league again. When did you feel like this was a piece you wanted to write? I've always loved Kawhi Leonard.

So once the season began, I was just chomping at the bit to write a positive story about him. And it got off to an extremely rocky start. I mean, he doesn't start his first game until November 17th. So he basically misses the entire first month. His first two games, he's checking into the game in the middle of the second quarter. Just weird stuff going on. Typical health-related stuff with him. He sprains his ankle after he makes his first couple starts, misses six games.

And I just can't quit this Clippers team. They were my preseason pick to win the NBA championship. I think they're so deep. I think that they have so much lineup versatility on both ends. Their defense has really held strong all season long. I like their coaching. And, you know, after this absolutely embarrassing, humiliating loss against Nikola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets in early January, Kawhi has just been on this absolute tear. And his numbers are 28, 6, and 4, 55, 50, 90 something shooting splits. They're awesome when he's on the floor.

They're terrible when he's off the floor. By the way, that's a, that's a 16 game sample size. So it's not like a week we're talking like over a month now he's 28, six and four again. Right, exactly. And, you know, they were in New York where I live about a week ago, a little over a week ago. And I got to go in the locker room and talk to a whole bunch of his teammates, got to ask Kawhi a question or two about his body. He's typically laconic, doesn't really reveal too much, but his teammates did. And, you know, I asked them, hey, what similarities and differences do you see in Kawhi over the past few weeks versus 2021 pre-Torin ACL? And all of them almost immediately were just like, he's the same guy right now. Like, we can't spot a difference.

Early in the season, they admitted, like, he didn't have the pop. He didn't have the explosion. The lift was a little bit off. You could see it. It just didn't seem like he was getting off the floor the same way. 100%. And you could really see it with him because his jumper is a line drive. So if he's not getting, if he doesn't have his legs, everything is short. And you can just tell from the first quarter on when he just doesn't have it, but he's had it these past few weeks.

And I mean, in his last game against the Warriors, which was just an absolute clinic on both ends of the floor, he hit this jumper over Draymond, and they're kind of joking with each other going back, just like, how did you hit that shot? It was perfectly contested by one of the best defenders in the league. So I just think Kawhi's back. I think he's playing at the level that's super-duper star right now. So they're 18-9 this season before tonight's game with Paul George and Kawhi together.

They are 22-11 with Kawhi just this season. And they're the best offensive rating and they're the fourth best defense. Now the problem is durability, consistency. Kind of need that during the regular season. I was on a text chain with Sal and House today because the Clippers were like plus 420 to win that division on Fandle.

And it's like those odds are just too high. You could argue they have the best team. Who knows when Durant comes back? The Kings have a really tough schedule down the stretch. Yet the rub is, do I trust Kawhi? Do I trust Kawhi and Paul George to play together? Do I trust them?

All this movement that they had during the season. The coach has been pretty positive about it, about the changes that. They dumped Reggie Jackson. They dumped John Wall. They dumped Kennard. They're three point guards heading into the season.

I don't ever remember that being. None of us love the point guard position for them. And the Clippers are like, we don't either. Got rid of all of them. And now it's this weird, there's some Eric Gordon, some Bones Highland, really more Terrence Mann. And then Plumlee, which I think they really felt like they needed

because Zubats felt like you could kind of see him wearing down. They're putting too many minutes on him. So the team makes more sense. There's more variables with the Gordon piece. He's older. He hasn't really been in a, you know, in a playoff type situation in a few years. Bones, we just watched him not be able to coexist

with Yoko Jumuri, which is a few years. Bones, we just watched him not be able to coexist with Yoko Jumuri, which is a red flag. But ultimately, none of this matters if Kawhi and Paul George can do the West Coast version of Tatum and Jalen. Do you trust the durability thing? Because we're going to hit this point in two months when we're playing every other day. You don't get any more days off. There's going to be, especially round three, it playing every other day. You don't get any more days off. You know, there's going to be, especially round three, it's every other day from that point on. There's no three-day break, four-day break. And that's why I think the odds are the way they are.

I think they're 12-1 to win the title. They should probably be higher, but nobody believes that he can stay healthy. I think it's totally fair to be skeptical, obviously. But what I go back to is he's still only 31 years old. In the 2021 postseason, I don't know if this is a controversial statement, but I feel like his run was just completely overlooked and he was the best player by far. And there's a lot of numbers that support that. He had that game six.

I was glad you mentioned that game in your piece because I'd kind of forgotten about it. That was one of the greatest four-quarter efforts from a player we've seen probably this century. What are you, 45 against Dallas and guarded Luke on the other side and kind of took him out? I rewatched that game before I wrote the piece

and the Clippers love to switch every ball screen. And from the opening tip of that game, you know, the Mavs are trying to hunt different guys. Like Kawhi's on Luka, but they're trying to hunt. And Kawhi's not switching. He's sticking to Luka Doncic like glue. And I just thought his effort in that game was tremendous. And when you watch, I feel like he's totally able to ratchet up to that level

when the lights will be brightest in the postseason. Now, you make a really good point about he's just not going to have a lot of rest in between games. And particularly once you get into the third round, it's every other day. It's just tip-top competition. And I think that also if you're a Clippers fan, what you're really worried about is you just don't want any part of the Nuggets. The Nuggets just have this team's number. I don't think Mason Plumlee is the Nikola Jokic stopper. I'm not going to say that. But they needed another reliable big man, another big body for that matchup. I thought that was a really smart trade.

And just generally speaking, I love the different lineup combinations that the Clippers can throw at you in a playoff series. I think that if Kawhi and PG are playing upwards of 40 minutes a night in the postseason, 38, 40 minutes, they're just going to be really tough to beat. This team has just kind of shown their effectiveness on both ends of the floor in a lot of different ways when those two guys are both playing. And I don't know i'm i'm optimistic i call me crazy but i'm just optimistic when i see kawai playing at this level for as long as he has over the past month and a half or so they're five man lineup stuff we don't have a ton of data yet because they haven't played a lot of minutes but there is one lineup that's been over 100 minutes uh in the per 100 where it's paul ge Kawhi with Morris, with Zubats,

and with Terrence Mann, which is basically their closing lineup unless Powell's going off in a game or whatever. They're 133.2 per 100 possessions offensively, 120.6 defensively, but that's pretty crazy. That's like high-level that's like a high level yokeage kind of stuff. Um, the Terrence man piece is the one that makes sense to me during the regular season and the playoffs. I get nervous because I just like having a ball handler. You even saw it last, uh, two nights ago, that Milwaukee Boston game, Derek White's a really good guard, but there was a moment in that where the bucks were like, you're just not going to be able to dribble the ball

past half court on us anymore. And at some point, certain teams can ratchet up the pressure. And I just like having that one dude that's, even you can see it with Conley already on Minnesota, there's just this calming presence like, guys, I got this. I'm going to find everybody in the right spots. And I guess they're expecting Kawhi and Paul George to be that guy. It's just unusual. We've seen like LeBron be able to pull it off. It's not like it hasn't happened before, but it's just a little unusual. It makes me a tiny bit nervous. I like what Reggie Jackson did for them two years ago. I actually thought he was pretty valuable for them in the playoffs, and it kind of got underrated.

So speaking of making you nervous, there was a report today that the Clippers are talking to Russell Westbrook about coming in for that position. You know, I think the point guard question is... No, no, no, no. Don't let that slide. That's one of the biggest mistakes of the past five years if they do that. They already had it. They had it with John Wall.

They had the same guy, the super fast kind of out of control guy who can't shoot. They did this and it didn't work. And then they bought out, traded John Wall and the Rockets had to buy him out. Why would they do it again? I don't think Russell Westbrook is changing your life.

I'm not going to say that at all. And I think that they definitely do not need him to win the NBA championship. I do think that in the playoffs, I think a lot of the playmaking and ball handling responsibilities will for sure fall on Kawhi and PG's shoulders. I don't know if Bones Highland is ready for that level of competition at all i'm pretty skeptical of that no he's a he's a heat check guy yeah you want him to come in and get like 12 points in five minutes in the second quarter yeah that's that's his destiny he's not gonna be a crunch time guy for that i don't think i did like in you know the game against the warriors they closed with eric gordon and norm powell um both on the court and i feel like those guys you know those they game against the Warriors. They closed with Eric Gordon and Norm Powell, both on the court. And I feel like those guys, you know, those aren't point guards by any stretch, but those guys can run secondary pick and roll action.

You throw them the ball on a kick out. They can drive a closeout, just continue the offensive possession, keep the ball moving. They're both really good outside shooters, at least spacers. In Eric Gordon's case, everybody respects his shot,

even when it isn't falling. And they've both been in big games, which I like that part, too. Both of those guys have been on the biggest stages. And I think I like Powell. He doesn't always have it, but there are nights when he can just carry you for five minutes. It's always good to have

those guys when Kawhi and Paul George are off the court. Powell might win sixth man of the year. He's had that type of season. So I do think that the point guard thing, I was honestly a little surprised that they gave up on Reggie Jackson. I think Mason Plumlee is more valuable to them in the role that he'll have than what Reggie Jackson would do for them in a playoff run.

I was a little surprised that they gave up on him. I thought that they were actually going to make a run at someone like Fred Van Vliet, dangle that 2028 draft pick that obviously did not come to fruition. He could have been a real game changer for them, but I still am confident in Kawhi and PG's ball handling, their decision-making, their playmaking,

their shot creation for themselves and others in a playoff series. And, you know, the one thing I'll say about Russ, don't you think he could... Don't do it. No, go ahead, say it. I want to hear it because then I want to get mad. What are you going to say? If you bring him in and he's just a regular season innings eater,

he doesn't start games, he doesn't close games. He's in a situation... The thing about him is, i don't want to make excuses for russell westbrook but like on the lakers his thing was he doesn't compliment ad and lebron james and his contract just completely ate cannibalized all of their depth chart just like that's not the situation in la with the clippers where they're already one of the deepest teams in the league he comes in and you know they can do these lineups that they had with the Clippers where they're already one of the deepest teams in the league he comes in and you know they can do these lineups that they had with the Rockets almost identically where you

have like Rocco at the five you have Batum you have Eric Gordon Powell like that those type of lineups where you can space around Russ I feel like he's if you were trying to like paint a picture of the ideal situation for him in a winning team, that would be it. I don't trust Russell Westbrook in a playoff series. I probably wouldn't play him at all, so I don't think you should bring him in if he's not going to contribute in the playoffs. But for the regular season, if you are worried about Kawhi's minutes load and usage and all that, then maybe that's why they're flirting with him right now. But I mean, I'm with you in terms of you just don't Paul George piece too. The Paul George, I played with him. No,

Russell's a good guy. The problem is you're catching somebody after they've been a star who still think there's a star. That was the issue with the Lakers. Now there are other issues, like they try to trade him for eight months. And I think he finally snapped on that, but he just doesn't realize that he's not a star anymore. What he is is he's an energy guy off the bench for seven minutes a half. And that's it. Just come out, wind it up, go 140 miles an hour, and then get out.

And he doesn't want to do that. He thinks he should have the ball on the last position. I don't think there's been enough. Like this Clippers run, where you go back to the lockout season, and then they have this resurgence in Lob City 2012 they get killed by the Spurs in the in that playoffs the next year they get upset by Memphis 2014 was a tough one because that was the year it seemed like they had a chance to win

the title and they choke against OKC they lose that that series. The year after, they have Houston. That game's done. That series is done. They completely choke. It's one of the worst choke jobs, not just of the century, but probably in the history of the NBA.

They end up losing to Houston in seven. Next four years, throw it away. 2021, or 2020 in the bubble, they have the 3-1 lead against Denver.

They blow it. Right? They, just like impossible. That Denver team was like, just couldn't have been younger and less ready to do something like that. And then 2021, it flips, right?

They beat Dallas. They have that iconic Kawhi game. It's like, here we go. They're playing Utah. I was at the game when he heard his ACL. They're about to go up 3-1. They look great. They look, I would have picked them

to win the title right there. Kawhi gets hurt. He's out. They end up losing to Phoenix in the next round. I think they were better than Phoenix. 2022, throw it away. Now we're here again. This is a pretty... We're talking three presidential terms now

of just kind of up and down, up and down, up and down along with one of the great what-ifs ever. What if Kawhi just decides to go to the Lakers? And then they keep Shea and they keep all their picks and you just kind of wait for the next guy. Might have been a better situation where in year four of the podcast,

there's so much pressure on them to deliver this year. I would say they have the most pressure in the league to come through. If you go through all the teams, like Milwaukee's already won Boston. They made the finals. They're young. Like they can get back Philly. I guess just making the finals is their pressure, but the Clippers out of anybody, I feel like that's the one where it's like our windows kind of closing. We gave up all these assets. Shea is like one of the best 13, 14 guys in the league now. On top of all the picks we gave up,

who knows if Kawhi is ever going to be this healthy again. It kind of has to happen this year, right? Yes. And I mean, these guys are under contract for a couple more years. I just think that Kawhi is 31, he's three years younger than KD. And we look at KD as...

I mean, just look at the trade haul that he got from Phoenix. He's still obviously revered around the NBA as this... You get him on your team and you can win the title. Some major miles on Kawhi, though. Not that KD doesn't have major miles, but Kawhi's had two...

Basically missed two-plus seasons just with two different injuries. Yeah, I mean, again, I see the skepticism and I totally see the concern. And I'm not going to sit here and say that there's no pressure on them. Obviously, there is. There's a ton of pressure. I mean, if you're a bomber and you're paying a nine-figure luxury tax for this team, you're expecting to go to the finals at least. You're expecting a deep playoff run. You should be expecting the championship

based on the talent, the veteran savvy, the experience on this team. I just think they're perfectly built for the postseason. And it's really weird when you look at their regular season profile and you say, oh, this team's a championship contender when their net rating is the same as the Washington Wizards. Their offensive rating is worse than the Los Angeles Lakers.

That just doesn't scream championship contender, but they're just kind of singular in the fact that they have this guy who does not play six games in a row. He probably won't for the rest of the season. And when he's on the court, they're a juggernaut. And I don't know how you kind of splice these two things. You can't dismiss it. Yeah.

You can't dismiss it. On the other hand, like I want stretches during this season that at least show me over a sustained three-week stretch you were good. Like Milwaukee just ripped off 10 in a row, right? And maybe 11 tonight after we tape this. The Clippers are 10 and six in their last 16. In their last 35, they're 18 and 17. They just haven't laid the smack down.

Even Philly did it. Philly went on that West Coast trip and they laid the smack down, you know? And they were just really good for a few games in a row. And I think you have to show that at some point in the season. The reason I think it's an important thing to bring up after the all-star break, they're kind of set up to do that, you know? And I think I want to see from them, can you just be good for two and a half weeks in a row, right? Can you go nine and

one? Can you go 11 and two? Can you just have a run that makes me want to take you seriously? Because otherwise that the history just isn't that great. You kind of have to throw it around once during this season. My teams, the Celtics, I feel like they've at least, even though they've had so few time with their best guys together, they've at least had these stretches

where I'm like, all right, this team, this is a really good team when we get everybody back. You know, I know that. The Philly fans, we talked to all right, this team, this is a really good team when we get everybody back. You know, I know that. The Philly fans, we talked to Chris Ryan about this before. This Philly team has been really good for a long stretch. The question for them is more like, all right, what happens if things unravel during a game? You know, what happens if it's game five

and all of a sudden we go cold for a quarter and just everything gets weird? But the Clippers, we know that their ceiling is as good as just about anybody i was gonna be this is the x factor it really is i was in the nets locker room last night after uh their their win against the heat mikhail bridges goes for 45 just looks incredible yeah and i was just joking around i was saying like hey you guys could i was just talking to some people with the team, like, hey, you guys could be the sixth seed, face Philly in the first round. You go up 2-1 and everyone in Philadelphia melts down.

Who knows what could happen with you guys? Right, and they would be like totally unafraid, you know, and they have the best 13th man in the league in Ben Simmons. So if a bunch of people foul out, he can come in and maybe play in the third OT. Who's your favorite West team right now before we go? Favorite team in the Western Conference? Who would you bet?

Who would you put your money on right now? I like the Clippers. I am also just a diehard ride or die with Nikola Jokic. Yeah, me too. just a die hard ride or die with Nikola Jokic. I think this could be Jokic's year and I kind of hope it is because I'm sick of the Jokic doubters to be honest with you. I love this guy.

I think he's one of the best players I've ever seen to be honest with you. The ESPN straw poll came out again today. Looks like he's favored to win three straight MVPs. I want to see him do it in another lengthy playoff run and just kind of quiet people who criticize him. I love Jokic.

Well, they also, I really like their trade deadline moves. We did the pod. On my pod, we did it on like literally right after. There's 20 things going on. We didn't even have the details on a couple of the trades correct. Like you're just, we're just going. And then things settle down and you kind of look at everything again. And I don't know if,

if it's Thomas, Brian and Reggie Jackson, that's all they did. I like those guys. I think you, I think those are guys that could be in a playoff series that, that made them better and taking bones out of it made them better too, because that was getting weird,

you know? So I like what they did, even though they didn't really do that much. I wonder if the Clippers could have known that Reggie Jackson was going to sign with Denver if they throw Denver, if they throw Reggie Jackson into that trade to get Mason Plumlee. Because, like, yeah, you're right. Reggie Jackson is a clear upgrade in the postseason over Bones Howland, who was probably going to be out of their rotation. So I like Denver a lot and I do. I like the Clippers. And then, I mean, I want to see Phoenix play before I get too high. They have so many health slash injury stuff. The Reggie Jackson thing reminds me of like those war movies, like Saving Private Ryan, where they don't kill the guy. He's like, no, no, we'll let him go.

And then much later in the movie, he comes back. Because if it's Denver and the Clippers, you know we're going to hear from Reggie Jackson that series. That guy, he rises to the occasion every once in a while. I'm with you, man. I would not have... I like Plumlee, but I would not have risked Jackson going away. I know they can't put that in the trade or be like,

hey, if we do this, you can't sign with a Western team. But I would have almost rather kept him than have him go to Denver. I also like Reggie Jackson. I think he was up and down. I think maybe Ty Lue was a little frustrated at the consistency with him. But I like him. Anyway, all right. Good to see you. Thanks for the Kawhi update.

I'm with you, man. I love watching Kawhi. There was a moment when we all agreed he was the new best player in the world that year after 2018 when LeBron needed to make the playoffs.

And it seemed like it was going to be Durant. And then Kawhi kind of grabbed it by the balls and he was the guy. And then it seemed like in 2021, it's like he's the guy again.

And then, you know, here's one more chance for him. But anyway, good to see you. Enjoy the stuff on TheRinger.com too. Check him out, Michael Pina. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Bill.

That's it for the podcast. Thanks to CR and Saruti, Michael Pina. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing as well. And I will see you, I think on Sunday night with Priscilla. That's right. Sunday nights with Priscilla tenderly starting on this Sunday. I don't know if he can do the following Sunday, but this Sunday we're talking hoops.

I will see you then. See them on the wayside Never said I don't have A few years with them On the wayside On the wayside Never said I don't have