The Bill Simmons Podcast - Phoenix in Shambles, Cleveland’s Ceiling, Best Third Bananas, NBA Refs, St. John’s, and ‘Season on the Brink’ With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the continued disaster that is the Phoenix Suns' season, what Kevin Durant's trade options will be this summer, and whether Devin Booker should be untouchable (03:02). Then, they play a game of "I Just Don't Have An Answer" for a few NBA questions, including whether the Nuggets are actually good, Thibs's coaching ability, and are there some experience concerns for the Cavs come playoff time (26:51). Finally, they talk about the latest episode of 'Celtics City' and whether Bill Russell has become underrated as time goes on (01:35:21), before closing it out with some thoughts on March Madness (01:59:59). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Kyle Circhton, Chia Hao Tat, and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Order Michelob ULTRA today, available on Doordash! ENJOY RESPONSIBLY © 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA® LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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of basketball and politics, wealth and power, revealing new truths about the NBA's greatest heist. It was a nine episode series and we're gonna be dropping episodes I think twice a week over the course of the next month, especially relevant now that OKC is the favorite to win the NBA title. So anyway, you can check that out. And then last thing, Fandel Sportsbook,

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It's all next. First, our are taping this. It is four o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. All the March Madness stuff just came out. Our long national nightmare is over. Another Phoenix Suns nationally televised game is behind us. How much longer, Rossello? How much like here's the case for the season being too long. We don't have to go through the death march of the last 20 Suns games among other things, but God, can't they move stuff around?

Can't they flex? What can they do? At one point, Wisconsin had outscored Phoenix through like 24 minutes of real basketball. I was keeping track of it, you know, and rarely will I ever be at home going, when does Atlanta Brooklyn start? Cause that's, that's where I was with, with them. And I know they kind of pretended it was close. Bill, they fuck up on defense so many times that I can't even, sometimes I can't figure out who was wrong. Yeah. Like I have too many suspects. Yeah. Like I'll have these plays written down and be like, what happened on that one? And then at the very end, there's a,

I think it's a Dory and Finney Smith three, where it looked like youth league basketball where three guys were on Luka. And, you know, they don't, I just, I hate watching them. I've obviously expressed that. We don't need to spend a lot of time on this. Well, they hate having you watch them. They hate watching. They hate playing together. They hate watching each other as they play basketball together.

It's a pretty rare situation of a team that seems reasonably talented on paper that we have these teams that bring the best out of each other. And this team just brings the worst out of each other for whatever reason. I have no answer for it. I was going to have a little segment. It should never be this bad. Like as bad as they are, people can make fun of it or whatever, it's ridiculous they're this bad.

Like coming out of the gate, you would think you have between 52 and 56 points per game from two guys. You should be in every game at that point, no matter how bad your defense is, whatever you're missing. You should at least be hanging around. They're down 10, 15, 20, nobody seems to care. I was gonna do a little segment later,

but we can do it now called I Just Don't Have the Answer. And if I had like a son's friend who was like, what do you think's wrong with this team? And I was like, I honestly don't know. I don't know why it's even worse than it was last year when it was like, oh, it's Vogel's fault. Oh, maybe it's Nurkic's fault. Well, they traded Nurkic, it's even worse than it was last year when it was like, oh, it's Vogel's fault. Maybe it's Nurkic's fault.

Well, they traded Nurkic, it's still bad. I don't understand it. I don't get it. Last year, remember they had that ridiculous fourth quarter point differential that was so absurd. It was so bad. It was historically bad. And it still didn't really make any sense

because you're like, well, it can't actually be that bad. And then there was an injury part of it where you could point to how often have you had the three guys there. And this year you can't point to any of that stuff. And it's like, look, I actually probably watched them more than I should because I'm still amazed and I'm not talking about them not being like a four seat or whatever, but this team sucks. And even when they had that winning streak, which we've talked about in the

past, they had that stretch, but they were, they'd lost to Charlotte and they barely beat Charlotte and they had a weird wizards game that they almost blew. And they were putting together like a decent record. And even then I'm like, I don't like this team at all. And I think a lot of it's just the defensive effort, the lack of competitiveness, the point of attack, defense, whatever their help rules are. They don't know what they are. They don't care to know what they are. They're just an absolute mess.

And you're right, like people can point to this and be like, oh, this is why you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. Like teams are never gonna say, oh, you know what we're gonna do? Not bring in stars because of what happened at Phoenix. But this is so bad. I actually do think it's more than just,

when the Nets were messed up, those guys didn't really play or they were hurt. This is so bad. You know, I actually do think it's more than just, you know, when the Nets were messed up, those guys didn't really play or they were hurt. It was Durant, Kyrie, and obviously Harden, and then, you know, the Simmons part of it's a different factor altogether. But I watch in amazement, but I think I'm done after today.

Well, you know what else is funny when they're on on the same night where there's an awesome game? Like if you watch them after you watch like Celtics Thunder the other night and how hard everybody's going, every possession and the switching and the scrambling and the intensity and the aggressiveness and then you watch the Suns

like basically playing like it's an all-star game. You know, there was an article on ESPN on Friday where it was kind of, it wasn't a now they tell us because the season's still going, but there was some breadcrumbs strewn throughout, including some good Ishby quotes. There was a hilarious Bradley Beal quote about, I've got my no trade clause, I'm doing great. But reading that piece, they're basically saying,

look, Ishby is going bookers and untouchable. That's the one guy, like, you know, he's basically saying we're trading Durant in the summer, which everybody knows. I don't think anybody should be an untouchable on this team. The way the last three years have gone, if I was, if the two of us were in a room, we were the conciliaries for Ishby,

and he's like, well, we can't trade Booker. I would be like, we can't? Really? Like, everybody's available, in my opinion, on that team. I know they're gonna build around Booker, but from what we've seen from him, the last couple of playoffs and then this season and last season too, I just don't feel like

there's an untouchable guy in this team. If the Rockets were gonna overpay for Booker, I would just think about it at least. I wouldn't just say blanket, no way, we're not trading them. You like Booker more than I do though. I do, I do. Today was a bad shooting game, but I also watched him in so many of these stretches

in the fourth quarter where he starts the fourth by himself with whatever role guys, they're trying to mix and match with him, and whatever his efficiency is supposed to be in those moments, I mean, it's just shot to hell because there's no spacing. Like remember when Ryan Dunn hit threes for a couple of weeks and everybody's like, how did this guy, how did he last so late?

And then every scout's like. Cause he can't shoe. And guess what? He can't shoe. The Nick Richards thing, moving out your, uh, Nurkic is supposed to help a little bit. I mean, we've covered all the stuff where I felt like with their restrictions, they actually did a really good job on the margins of all of this stuff. I mean, you can sit here and keep blaming Beale for all of it, but at some point,

like Booker and Durant just have to move on from the fact that Beale's not available, he's not competitive. Um, you know, I don't know that he's as prideful as you need to be from a guy that's getting paid that much money. And maybe we had all the hints when he was with the Wizards and it's funny, we get on these guys' cases about asking out of situations sometimes, and not every case is the same, so I don't think you should be married to every player is wrong or every player is right,

which, you know, other people, you can find them doing that. But should we have known when Biel was like, oh, I'm good in Washington? Right. This is great. Was that the all-time clue? Got a no-trade card. If you were Booker, why would you want to stay?

I don't know, because, you know, Ishbia's quotes, I understand where he's coming from, but I don't know if he's going to be able to stay. at the all time blue. If you were Booker, why would you wanna stay? I don't know, because Ishbia's quotes, I understand where he's coming from, but you can't just grit your teeth and be better in the NBA. Yeah. Right? It's like, we're not gonna tank,

we have too much pride to do that, so we're going plan B, and not everybody thinks that they should do plan B, but that's what we're going to do. It's like, okay, cool. You have no draft picks. You have no way to improve your roster. You're not going to be able to sign free agents.

You're over the apron. You're not going to get nearly what you think you're going to get for Durant. You're just not. He's going to be in year 19 next year and he's not as impactful two ways as he used to be. And if anything, like I would think he's a pretty big injury risk at the age he's at. I just don't think people are ponying up big packages for him.

Who's doing it? We go through teams right now, find me the team that's gonna be like, yeah, to rant right now. First of all, somebody will do it. What is it though? Like let's say Miami strikes out an off free agent. So like, all right, let's go for KD. What's the offer?

Like could they, two years ago, yeah, but that's, but it's the kind of team like that. It's like a semi-desperate team. There's other teams that I think with what you've seen from Durant the last couple of years without unhappy his teams are. And I should mention, I like Kevin Durant. He's been on a lot of unhappy teams now in the 2020s. I would be scared if I would have a young a lot of unhappy teams now in the 2020s. I would be scared if I had a young team. Like let's bring in this guy as, as the, as the Wiley leadership vet.

Like, can you do that? All right. So I wrote some things down. So if we're just in it now, let's get to it because, you know, last year when we were watching Dallas and the Clippers playing that playoff series. And we were talking and it was kind of like a fun series, but it was also weird, and it was just, you didn't really know what to expect. Kawhi goes down, and Dallas gets through it, whatever.

And then you've got all these guys out there where it's like, clearly you would do anything to get Kawhi, and then you double down on all of it to get Paul George, because Paul George gets you Kawhi, and we've been over it with Lawrence Frank and Ballmer, and in the moment, you'd be like, hey, we can get Kawhi if we move in for Paul George. It's like, all right, done.

You know, what are we doing? And then they make the hardened deal and they're like the only team that's going to pay him. Maybe. I hated it. On the Dallas side. Okay. But on the Dallas side, you have the Kyrie bet, which at the time. Hated that too.

Right. You're going, what are these guys? There was, you want to talk about bread crumbs to clues for Nico Harrison later on, who also after the Luka trade said that they don't do scary transactions. It's like, you actually did the scariest transaction that you could have done in the league at the time. And it's been awesome. Kyrie's been awesome for them.

It sucks. He's hurt. Cause it's just been fun to see him be kind of happy as a basketball player again. Anyway. So the point is, is that we were talking about that series. I'm like, this series is an example of why GMs are just like, yeah, I know what all you guys are saying, but in the playoffs, we need dudes that are at that level that can find a way to get buckets.

And I think the Jimmy Butler lesson is another reminder of think about his market, think about how much we talk about it, all of us that aren't working in leagues and then all of a sudden it's like golden states, like, yeah, how much we talk about it. All of us that aren't working in leagues. And then all of a sudden it's like golden states like, yeah, we'll do something for it. They didn't give up a ton, but then we'll also throw a hundred million at this guy. And it's worked and it's been great. But I think there are constant reminders as we talk about Durant for however down we can think everyone is on one of these players, these guys that are all going to go to the hall of fame.

And granted there's an age where it's no longer worth it, but Durant still probably in the window everyone is on one of these players. These guys that are all going to go to the hall of fame. And granted there's an age where it's no longer worth it, but Durant still probably in the window where another team goes, you know what, maybe we're a 48 to 52 win team, um, but we're probably not beating anybody in the second round. Definitely not in the third round. So does Durant increase our ceiling despite his injury history? And I think the unhappiness his, on, uh, the unhappiness history is the, is the bigger point that you bring up. So I'm with you, but I think these guys constantly remind us that the pursuit of these players as tarnished as they can be at some point, even at their lowest

lows of approval, there's still a market for them, right? Or haven't we learned this lesson enough yet? Yeah. It's less the market for the players and more the desperation of the suitors. You know, the Warriors are staring at that Jimmy Butler trade for two months. And it got to the point with Steph, like Steph's going to be 37. We're going to waste another year. He's already breaking down.

We have to do something and you talk yourself into it. And also the price dropped, which I think really helped them as well. It got to the point where it was basically a first Wiggins and that was it. And also once Butler knew he wasn't going to give his way to the last day, then he's like, all right, now I'll go here if we do the extra year. But the Butler thing is a really, to me, like, like this ties into it. If they had gotten Durant instead of Butler, do you think the Warriors would be playing this well? Because I would argue one of the things that I think,

and I've watched a ton of Golden State, like I am just so fired up about the Steph comeback. Steph's now making like a second team all NBA run. Like it's kind of stealth, but I think by the time we get to the end of the season, I think he's in the top 10 conversation. But I think what's made this run special for these guys is that Butler doesn't care where the stats are. Everybody on that team is sacrificing. Butler will have games where he doesn't even really shoot. Like he's doing like the 2015, Iguodala.

I'll just play some defense. I'm over here if you need me. Oh, you need me. I'll score right now on my guy. But for the most part, he's completely bought in. I don't know if Durant at this point in his career would be able to do all the glue guy stuff that Butler's doing. I don't know if he's that kind of player anymore.

To me, he's like, we need him because, like Orlando. Like that's a weird fit, right? They have Palo in France, makes no sense. But Orlando needs somebody who can be like, I can score a bucket right now. I got this, clear out. Like it's a team like that that needs scoring. I don't know if it was Golden State necessarily. this, clear out. It's a team like that that needs scoring.

I don't know if it was Golden State necessarily. And who knows if he would have been happy. We already have his answer. He wouldn't have been. Yeah, right. Because he clearly didn't want to go there. Right. So even if he had said yes,

I mean I guess if you're playing it out some alternate universe where he's excited, let's do this again, but I don't think that's who he was going to be. And I'm with you. Like the Butler passing part of it, somebody that you just trust in some of these big spots, um, you know, Kurs talked about just how smart he is and how good he is. And they assist turnover stuff. Um, there's some swagger shit with him too, that I think is really important.

There's that team has an arrogance to it again. And I mean that as in a good way, that team's got its, got its thing back. And I think he brought it back. Draymond started playing a little bit better and started carrying himself a little more and at the combo of them. I remember the Pistons when they lost Mahorn in the expansion draft after they won the first title. Devastating.

And they, well, they had that whole bad boy thing. He was such a big part of that. And then he left and it was kind of like, now it's just Lambeer and Isaiah and Rodman. And then Rodman had to kind of step up and fill in that bad boy thing. But the combo of Draymond and Butler, I think, and Moody, you can see it's infected him in a good way too.

Like he's carrying himself now. And I just think that and Moody has it's you can see it's infected him in a good way, too Like he's carrying himself now and I just think that team that team has real playoff toughness I'm really watching them now as a team. I don't think they can beat okay see necessarily, but they love playing okay See, they've had great games against them I think they'll be happy to go toe-to-toe with them and I think it'll be a good series I think okay, okay, so you'll win but we imagine saying that six weeks ago about golden state. They looked like they were dead. No, I think my favorite stat too, for Steph is that he was 22 shots a game in February and now he's 17 and it's because it's not scoring Butler, right?

He, he doesn't want to shoot 22 times a game. Yeah. And there's some guys that'll never understand not wanting to shoot 22 times a game. Yeah. And there's some guys that'll never understand not wanting to shoot 20 times a game and he could shoot 25 if he wanted to, and he'd probably be justified. But you can just tell when they were really just grinding offensively, it was like, all right, you're running this first thing, Steph is cut off. And it's coming around the back. It's coming this way.

Oh, now he's coming around. Right. So at least with Butler, you have to respect him, even if you're not, you know, being as aggressive. And it was funny cause I was looking at his numbers against Wiggins numbers and just the points per game are about the same, but the, you know, the rebounding, the assist stuff with him. Um, and Butler's metrics have always been really good this year because he's still

getting such a ridiculous free throw rate because we've covered it. I mean, he's just going to get you once he seals you at the rim. But you're right. Like I think last night, like Moody was getting into guys defensively. I just think there's a ceiling on what they'll be able to do. I'm surprised you would think the OKC series would be competitive because the what, what they're unveiling with this Chet Hartenstein thing. I that's asking a lot of Moody.

Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it. No, it's just, I think the thing that I've noticed already with Butler, I think it's so hard to just kind of move into that Golden State system and figure out how to play with Steph the right ways. And Butler's already figured it out. He's like, Oh, I got the ball in the corner, but now I see Steph floating around behind me. I'm going to screen my guy and give back to him. Like he's already, it feels like he's played like a hundred games with them.

You know? And the only reason I mentioned the OKC thing, and I think OKC is the best team in the league. I just feel like they've had, I believe in the model of we've played this team really well over the years. Cause I feel the same way about Milwaukee and Cleveland. Cleveland's better than Milwaukee, but Milwaukee's played good games against them. I've watched some of them. Like they're battles. They have a really. I can't wait for Milwaukee's week, like going into the night and everything.

Like I'm really excited about the bucks for the next week. Looking at the schedule. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know. Back to the original point though. Are you playing the results on the Butler fit and also playing the results on the current Durant fit

where there's a, is there still a version of the Durant fit that also playing the results on the current Durant fit where there's a, is there still a version of Durant where say, you know, the reason I always look at Houston is if Houston goes, okay, look, we've done a really good job here. We built probably as deep an asset chest as they're in the league, you know, maybe outside of, depending on what you think of, okay, see in the high end, I think everybody understands what I'm trying to say here. Options, right? Option depth. I'm like, Oh, if we did this and this for this guy,

could you see the Durant happiness thing is real. I mean, I don't love the Durant Shangoon mix. I don't like them as a combo because I can't play any other real tall guys who can protect the rim with those two. I guess I could play Jabari. No, they're going like Jabari, Adam's Shungoon right now. I know. It's weird. And their record is kind of, they've hung around. I think we all thought they were going to dip. Booker makes way more sense to me with Houston than Durantos.

Booker is exactly what they need. That's one of those. If you just replace Jalen Green with Booker, you'd be like, holy shit. Okay. Okay. So let's go back to this. Is Booker kind of the Pierce phase for Danny Ainge, say 2005, 2007 stretch where Pierce is 28, 29. Remember they, that's the only real stretch of Pierce's career with Austin where he didn't play, right? Because they were like, all right. But 0 29, remember they, that's the only real stretch of Pierce's career with Austin where he didn't play, right?

Because they were like, all right. But 06, remember, you remember this, nobody else does. Pierce was awesome that one year when they went like 35 and 47. Pierce was incredible. He was like carrying, there was like nobody. So the question is, is he more Paul Pierce or is he more Ray Allen at that point of their careers?

Right. So the Pierce year you're talking about is the 06 year. You're right. I mean, he's 27 a game, 27-7-5. You know, he's taken 18 shots a game, which actually isn't even the high because he took a lot there. The pace was way slower back then. Everybody was, you know, 27 a game back then was like 32 now. Yeah, but he took 20 shots a game when he was 25, but granted that Boston team, you know, was six over 500, so that was kind of like the Jim O'Brien, was like you guys can do whatever you want. Yeah, do whatever you guys want on offense

as long as you guys play defense. And so I just felt like- No, you're right. Pierce is the right comparison. You're right, because Pierce was a little better than Ray Allen as a two-way guy. So what was the point that Ainge always made? Because again, I was doing TV back then,

I had a good relationship with him, I would ask him whether he was on the air with us or the times I would run into him with wall fam and just bullshit, and it was always cool that he would do it with me. And I was kind of in the mindset of like a younger guy that we always want everybody to hit the reset button. Like two years of not going in the right direction, we're like, yep, get rid of

everybody, hit the reset button. We all do it in the media. We do it as fans constantly. Ishby ended that in the interview. He talked about it. Everyone wants to blow it up. I don't want to do that. This is why this is good because then Angel just go, I want more players like Paul

Pierce, Paul Pierce is the, he wouldn't swear obviously cause it's Danny, but he's like, Paul Pierce is awesome. It is my job to build around Pierce. And it's basically the exact same age range that we're talking about with Booker. So there's one crucial difference. I know what it is, but go. The Celtics had a bunch of assets and they, they had the, at least cap space coming down the road and moves to make in the last three years of that decade. And I think the difference with the sons is what are the moves.

Because you can, even if you trade to rant, you gotta get contracts back. I don't even think they're allowed to take two guys back for them. Cause they're so far over the apron. So you almost have to take one guy back or trade them into a team that could take on the cap space. You gotta get assets back, but then you got gotta turn those assets into more booker help. You aren't able to sign anybody in for AHA, and you have no picks.

Like the Celtics that year, they had Al Jefferson, and they had Rondo, and they had Gerald Green, who weirdly had value. Ryan Gomes. Ryan Gomes, they had first round picks to trade. Like the Phoenix doesn't have any of that. I would be, if I was a Suns fan, I'd be so bummed out. Cause I don't think there's anything worse than being unwatchable,

but also having no hope for the next couple of years. And I don't see how you have hope if you're them. So a Booker tells you, you're Ishby and Booker's like, look, I get it. There's no wiggle room here. And that's the biggest difference between the Pierce Booker comp that we're coming up with here is that there were at least outs, there was stuff on the horizon and with Phoenix and the new second and all of the stuff, the restrictions is far more restrictive.

This current situation, if Booker goes to you, your Ishby is like, you know what? I know this, but I don't want to go anywhere. What do you do? You keep them at that point, at least for another year. And you try to make the best Durant deal you can. And you fire everybody who told you you shouldn't trade for Bradley Beale with a no trade clause. I think whoever's left in the building who was like, I do it.

They have to go. You just have to clear the deck. Because that's like, we did the worst contract draft and Woz took Bradley Beale first. And he was right to trade for that. When you have no to trade for a contract with no outs is the most irresponsible thing you can do as a franchise, you know, and then the, and B contracts, probably second. Well, I don't know what they do.

And it's one of the most shocking things I can remember in recent MBA history because we thought the Phoenix was going to be good, like legit good. And they're the opposite. They're awful. Um, we'll take a break. I have a couple more things to throw you, uh, related to this. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandel, the beauty of the tourney, the underdogs, the chaos, the stories that make you believe the fans.

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I got really mad about the Austin Reeves thing over the weekend with the spurs. And I almost did a whole tweet thing and I was like, I think I've already tweeted about this and went back and, and, and saw what they use their cap for that summer. It was, it was Chetty Osmond and campaign. And they just could have had Reeves. I don't think they ever made the story I heard was the reason his camp was waiting for an offer, waiting for an offer. And the Spurs were like, we're going to get one or you get one or you get one.

And then the Lakers smartly were like, you got to tell us by tonight. If you're doing this and the Spurs were just too late, never did it. And then after the fact, we're like, yeah, you know, we're a year away. We don't want, but, um, I was But I was just maybe so mad thinking two Texas teams have rebuilt the Lakers. The Mavericks and the Spurs. The Lakers are just headed toward the cliff with old LeBron and AD hitting his mid-30s

and no real ability to rebuild. And now they're gonna be really good for the next 10 years. And it's because of these two dumbass Texas teams. Makes me so mad. I would tell you that Reeves Camp really appreciates you bring this up probably every six weeks. I'll do it every three weeks. Reeves is legitimately good. Could Reeves make the All-Star team?

I think he could. Not this year, but in the next three years, could he be an All-Star? Yeah, I think he could. Is he as good as Jeff Hornacek was? I think he is. Like Reeves is, I want to do a third banana list with you and see where he ranks in the third bananas. I just, I just can't believe we were talking that whole season about- Too bad Grant Williams is hurt. Well, we were talking, remember we were like, could, would they offer him four for, could somebody offer him four for 98? That's the max you'd go. Like, that's a lot. It's like, well,

that's 20 plus million a year. Anyway, they got him for what? 12, 13? Clearly, all this other stuff. The Spurs could not have thought he was going to be this good. How? I don't, that's where, you know, and the Spurs have done good stuff over the years. And like they nailed the Castle pick last year. No, I mean, in recent times, they nailed the Castle pick. Right. I'm just saying the Spurs track record has been pretty good. Spurs track record is good.

I'm talking recently, maybe not as good, but yeah, if you want to tell me there's some misses in there. Yeah. You got me. I think Reeves is a miss. It's a huge miss. They had the cap space. Trade him.

He's an asset or sign him. He's an asset or sign him. He's an asset. The biggest thing to you is make him the offer so that LA has to match. Yeah. So that's one. Another one I don't have an answer for. That almost sounded like cow herd right there. Thank you.

Still don't have a real answer for why the Embiid extension happened. And here's another one you and I have talked about for a while. And there's still some buck passing going on with it and nobody's really owned it yet. I've heard various stories about it. I've gotten some intel on it. Can you share? Give me what you've heard. He means a lot to Philly.

It's the right thing to do. Um, if his body breaks down, we'll be able to cover it with insurance. Anyway. Um, it'll be a huge distraction. If we don't do this, we should just do it. And odds are he's going to be healthy. Was the case. Odds are.

Yeah. Yeah. I felt like the public stuff about ownership being like, you know, weren't sure about this one. You're like, I mean, these owners run these teams. They make every decision. That's even 10% as important as this. They're making the decision. It's ridiculous. The number of trades they want to do. Don't like the, just over the years,

you're like, what happened with that? And it's like, oh, the owner. Like, what are you, like, I remember how long it took me to finally just accept that the owners are, they don't let somebody just go, yeah, what'd you guys do today? Good news. No, it's so true. Well, and the owner can become the boogeyman sometimes

when you talk to teams where if it was a draft pick that you're gonna be like, wow. The owner really pushed for that. So that's kind of, we shouldn't have listened to him on that. So you never know what's real and not real. You know those. There's some of that stuff too. We know the teams.

I don't wanna list them because I don't wanna betray anybody. But there's some teams where they use owners as the boogeyman. Because like when Gaston, before Wick and the guys had bought Celtics, which is honestly one of the greatest things that could have happened, but Gaston would apparently just say, here's the number.

And if it's a dollar over, it's coming out of your pocket. And that was it. Like as hands off as you could possibly be as an owner. But is that awesome or does that actually suck that you can't go to your owner and say, hey, we have this on the table and here's, we can work with this, if you allow us this and then maybe next year we cut it back down here. I don't know if being that rigid,

at least you kind of know where you stand and what your parameters are for a team. But specific to the Embiid thing, and I like Josh Harris a lot, but you're not, you can't tell me like you didn't want to do it and Darryl and the staff convinced you to do it. And Josh has been around sports like he's in. Josh has run his run companies. He owns two professional sports teams that are very expensive and have a lot of employees. He's not just passing off that decision to somebody else.

This is not a defense of Darrell, because I'm sure Darrell really wanted to do it too. But to make it seem like you had to be talked into it, but deep down you knew it was a bad idea, like get the fuck out of here, stop. Yeah, that one I'm gonna have a hard time believing, because then it spins it back into Darrell, and the difference between your relationship with Darrell and mine is pretty wide,

but I think I'm always fair about it because I think he's really good. I try to be fair too. It's been a rough year. It does seem like it's one of those dumb cultural organizational like we pay Paul George 200 million, we max Maxie out at his number and he was nice enough to wait. So like, let's get everybody on the same financial timeline. And you're just thinking to yourself and clearly like the announcement of it being that close to the start of the season means that they probably had already come to some kind of general agreement, maybe before the Olympics

even happened, but the way, the way we're seeing it is like this many weeks after you saw him laboring during the Olympics and you don't even have to do this extension. And you've got another player. Like, yeah, you have two more years for him anyway. Why would you be in a hurry to hand this guy that kind of money? But I think it comes back to a lot of stuff. It's like, if you're going to pay these other guys and what he means to the city and all that different stuff, I think the Embiid part that's a little curious is that

I don't know that he's actually a blast day to day. And it doesn't really get talked about a ton, which, you know, good for him. And I know there was the part of it where it kind of leaked out last year, and then he was upset that- That he was late to stuff. That people were talking about it and the team answered the planning.

But I have a feeling like it's like a lot of organizations where if you have one of these guys, when he's right, it's a top five player in the world, you do whatever he wants, but you just hope that him doing whatever he wants is in line with you trying to win as many games as you possibly can. And I'm not even really, you know,

I'm trying to be fair about this whole thing. Cause it's not like an embed only situation because we always hear about this kind of stuff, but it's just, it felt like there was a lot of things that probably could have told everybody involved. Like we want to wait on this. Maybe just a year. Yeah. Take a year. Here's another one. I just don't have an answer for her. No, this is a good one. Is Denver good?

Ooh, now you're cooking. Are they good? Like if they lost four, one in round one, would you be like, I can't believe it. There were no signs at all. If they made the Western finals, would you be like, I can't believe they made the Western finals. I don't know. To me would you be like, I can't believe they made the Western finals. I don't know. To me, they are like, I don't know what to expect.

They're like one of those boxers that they could knock somebody out. They could get knocked out. It could be, or they're almost like a UFC fighter. Like I don't know what UFC fighter that would be like. Like Gachey. Like Gachey might just get fucking cold cocks. Raw cold? He might have an awesome fight today.

I watched a lot of the Laker game and I watched the fourth quarter of the Washington game last night. Wow, so you're coming off the Wizards game last night. No, but I watched almost that entire Laker game when they didn't have Luca and they didn't have LeBron and they're just hanging with Reeves and Connect. That's what made me so mad about Reeves on Friday night.

And Denver was trying and they were home and they needed the game and they're barely hanging out against this like G league Laker team with Reeves. And I was just like, what the fuck? Hey, like to me, the MV, we talked a week ago about the MVP of the Oak edge, like it's, I don't know what scenario would happen for SGA not to win the MVP at this point after the week he had, but is Denver good? Um, well, let's see here. Uh, I thought the Washington game was more alarming.

And by the way, if we're going to be critical of when he gets into games, let's be positive when he's a plus eight, Ronnie James plus eight in 16 minutes. In that game. Uh, that's the dock rivers rule. All right. when he's a plus eight, Ronnie James, plus eight in 16 minutes in that game. That's the Doc Rivers rule, all right? The Doc Rivers rule, full effect against that Lakers version of a team out there. Did Dalton take 30 shots in that game, by the way? Yeah, 13 to 27.

He's playing hard, too. Okay, so that one. Seemed like he got concussed at the end. He was, Duncan's already hit his head. The Washington game was far more alarming than I think the Lakers won. Cause I'm going with the Doc Rivers rule, where I'd rather the other team have everybody.

So I know my guys are in. And I think that game, they went into it being like, whatever to be up seven, I think with four minutes to go on the Wizards where you were up, they get back into it. It's stupid. Pool has the most Jordan Pool last few minutes of a basketball game You could ever imagine hits the game winner on a shot where it was like just feel very 34 footer

Without your or tending to take coming out of the timeout. I know Gordon played in He played in the Lakers game 31 minutes, but he didn't play in the Wizards game So I just have to have fully formed Aaron Gordon. And if you run through it, are you going to take. Like if the two through five right now is a game in the West, if it's Minnesota, Denver, are you picking Minnesota right now? I mean, I could change it in a week, but from what I've been watching the last month, I would take Minnesota against Denver.

And I also feel like Minnesota seems like they genuinely feel like they have Denver's number for whatever reason. They, they'll be really hard series for Denver. Minnesota looked great against them the other night. Like I went to that game. I really like playing Denver. Yeah. The, the Denver, I think the biggest Denver issue is that when you saw them go up

against OKC and then you saw them go up against Minnesota, it was just back to bat games where you're watching Christian Brown have to defend SGA and then Ant. And I don't know if Aaron Gordon becomes the guy because he didn't plan out of those games is Aaron Gordon somebody that you go, Hey, in a playoff series, or at least the fourth quarter, like we feel like we can throw this guy at him, there's just a lot of perimeter size there with those two teams. That would be a problem for Denver. I have more issues.

All right. Than that. There's a lot of Westbrook. or size there with those two teams that would be a problem for Denver. All right. All right. Then that, um, there's a lot of Westbrook, like he's involved and I know Gordon's been out. And when Gordon's out, there's more Westbrook. It's a lot. And he's, I think Ben that's been a winning signing and pro the Westbrook sign. And that was great.

But he's in a lot. If this is a movie, he's in a lot of scenes like, Oh, Westbrook sign and that was great. But he's in a lot. If this is a movie, he's in a lot of scenes. Like, Oh, Westbrook's in this scene too. Oh man, he's going to be in the shootout scene. Like he's just in it. Do you have an example? Christian Brown is, Christian Brown is like incredibly important now, as you mentioned, um, they have no bench whatsoever.

And the thing that alarms me the most, Rosusella, they have some of the worst defensive possessions short of the Suns. There was a Washington play with like two minutes left. Who was that rookie from the Swedish kid? He made the three in the corner because everybody forgot he was in the corner. Remember that, like a minute left? Are you talking about Bilal?

One of those kids, I forget who made it. What, Miami, the Miami rookie, Keishon George? It was Keishon George, I think, is who you're talking about. Yeah. He, he, they just forgot he was in the corner and Jordan Poole, they double teamed, Yoko just double teamed Poole for no reason. And then nobody swung over and there's just a wide open guy in the corner. And it was like a huge play.

Um, they just have some really bad sequences. And sometimes I think Yoko just so great. And it was like a huge play. They just have some really bad sequences. And sometimes, I think Yoko just so great, he just makes up for a lot, or Murray Hill at a three. But they seem really, after the All-Star break, I was thinking, oh man, they could really do this. And now I'm wavering. I don't like what I'm seeing.

Yeah, I don't know where they are in FanDuel right now. I was looking at it this morning. But they're still with this Lakers dip and LeBron missing time, which I don't know how fair it is to judge any of this Lakers stuff the last week or so. Were LeBron not playing? I mean, it's kind of pointless, right? Um, but Denver still kind of thought of as this fourth team.

I think they were fourth in odds. Are they right now still? FanDuel is second in the West for odds now, plus 600. If Golden State played Denver in a series with what you've seen right now? Second in the West for us now plus 600. If Golden State played Denver in a series with what you've seen right now, like put Gordon back into it and put in that Jokic has really owned Golden State over the last couple of years. Would you feel great about taking Denver in that? I think that series would be like a 50-50. I mean, is Draymond defending Yokochi I guess primarily, or they're going to think.

Yeah. I think that would be a loony Jackson Davis bringing that post to try to spread him or you bring them out, hoping he can search. I don't know. You might have post in there hoping to run Yokochi around. I like that you brought up the Westbrook thing because everybody knows how I feel about like the long form of Westbrook, but he's been really important for them. And considering the value on it and all the minutes and all the shots available

and all that stuff, I also think it's the most accepting Westbrook has ever been of his role, but I see the playoff limitation stuff where I'll go, if you're going to run him out there. Like I thought that Lakers, not this game, the other one that we did the show after, after that game, I thought the lack of spacing with the Westbrook Brown lineup and then Gordon's also somebody, even with his shooting numbers being really good this year, teams are going to cheat off of him. Um, and it's not that you'd want to, you want, you don't want to be like

doubling Yolkich in a predictable way where then he's burning you with guys cutting all the time, but I feel like I've noticed that maybe it's cause I look for it. Um, and so maybe I'm wrong with it, but there's just moments where Westbrook gets a little jumpy with Jokic late where he's actually trying to defer to him in a way that I've never really ever seen him defer to another player that he can force the ball back to him. If he misses a late three, I don't think it'll want to take the next one. You know?

And if there's a Lakers series, I'm convinced the Lakers are like, he's going to want revenge on us so bad in this series that we're not even worried about. What are my favorite theories? The Laker, any playoff series, he's just wide open. Like just know that going in, in the last five minutes of any playoff game, if he's out there, he's going to be left open. I'm worried about Denver. I don't like that they can't get stops when they don't need it.

And I don't like how involved Westbrook is. And I don't like that they don't have a bench at all. Here's my next one for you. They're playing Murray and Jokic 40 minutes a game in March too. Red flag. Is Tibbs a coach that you could actually see winning four straight playoff rounds? That's my next, I don't have an answer for this. Yeah, I do. They're not going to, but I think he's one of the smartest basketball people I've ever

seen. Is he one of the smartest defensive coaches you've ever seen or is he one of the smartest coaches you've seen? I know where you're going with this with the minutes and everything, but. No, I'm not going to the minutes actually. I'm going to the offense. Because it's really been interesting and I had some Knicks fans in my life

who predicted this when Brunson got hurt. That they were like, if he can just come back in time for the playoffs healthy, this actually might be a good thing for us because we were too Brunson centric. We were too predictable. Bridges was being wasted in some of these games. We weren't going to towns and some fourth quarters. We were actually going to feel like more of a team and more of an offense because all these guys are chipping in. Bridges has immediately been better. And I think the

frustrating thing I've had watching the Nick's this year is just, they're not using all the parts of Bridges. You give up all those picks for him and you throw him in the fucking corner. And I don't know, I think he's really good with the ball. I think he's good at like deciding, you know, if you set him a pick 25 feet from the basket, I think he makes good decisions.

He can go to the basket, he can pull up, he's a good passer. And they didn't use him at all. And they just kind of ran Brunson into the ground. It's not why he got hurt. But I think the more you use somebody, the more the chances increase that they might get hurt. I just feel like they, in a weird way, have more balance without Brunson,

but they're obviously better with Brunson. And maybe this was good for him. I don't know what Tips was doing the first 60 games is my point. I don't know what they were doing with Brunson and maybe this was good for him. I don't know what tips was doing the first 60 games is my point. I don't know what they were doing with Brunson without bridges at all. I don't understand it. Bridges is an interesting case because we felt like he was just an unbelievable fourth option when we all still had hope for eight and right in

Phoenix. I mean, his shot attempts per game, seven, six and a half, nine, 10 and a half, then he peaked at 13 and a half and then he gets traded, right? And the Durant deal and that run with Brooklyn with him, 22, 23. And I brought up with my pod because I went to a game and watched him in person. And I was like, damn, like this is sophisticated, sophisticated offense. And it was him getting wherever he wanted to, initiating the possession where, you know, maybe he'd always had it, but you just, there's never, ever going to be a time where you needed that from him and Phoenix, or maybe you did.

I know. So like, yeah, I'm with you. The 33 the other night against Portland, seeing him remind me of the Nets version, because the second year with the Nets, the shot attempts go way down. I think he was kind of miserable. It was pretty clear, like he wasn't, he wasn't way down. I think he was kind of miserable. It was pretty clear. Like he wasn't, he wasn't playing offense the way that he was playing it before. And I've, I've pointed out the cam Thomas part of it.

Nets fans don't like hearing that from me. I don't know. I thought it was kind of obvious, but came into the, being, you know, really good at the start of this year. So maybe it was deserving of him. So here's my question. Do you think Tibbs, but do you think Tibbs just messed up the Mikhail Bridges thing this year? Cause that's what it sounds like you're saying. And I don't really have to tell

you it's different. I guess, I don't know that. Let me just say this though. That Brunson cat thing is like the best points per possession thing in the, it's one of the best things in the league and their offense is awesome. You know, if there's anything that's been wrong with him this year, it's their defense. So my counter, well, it's not a counter, we're not arguing, but I feel like when you have an offense like that and you have these five guys who are all good in different ways, heart does need the ball. The other guys kind of do at least sometimes it's like you're at a concert and it's like, ah,

you got to play that Keith Richards song. Yeah, it's new. Let's just, let's just do it. And then we'll do start me up after we'll get the crowd back into it. But you got to give Keith like this five minutes. You kind of have to do that. Like I, this is one of my criticisms with the Celtics. Sometimes they forget that Derek White is really good, especially against certain

matchups with the ball or like run him a pick. Like he makes good decisions. It breaks you out of the monotony of just Tatum and Brown launching threes. I think coaches forget sometimes that you just, when you sprinkle guys in and get them a little involved, you get more out of it later. Bridges was on autopilot in some of these Knicks games

I was watching because he wasn't involved. And I think he's a really good player. And that's why they gave up five first round picks for him and all of us were like, okay, I get it. Bridges is really good. Whatever they were getting out of him this year, I thought they were weeks and stretches that it just, at least from what I was watching,

I wasn't that impressed. We'll see. I like it, I like it by the way. You know, why not? I don't know how many times he was initiating his own offense. Maybe this is a Kurt Goldsberry shot chart so we can see the difference between his peak net season two years ago and then where it is if it's all

stuck in the corner with a few elbows in there. But all I know is that when I saw it live two years ago, I thought this guy can kind of like, this is almost like Booker Durant type shit in this mid-range pull-up. And then in the scoot reckoning game, which unfortunately scoot lost in that overtime, uh, Nick's winner, Bridges was doing a lot of the stuff that made me think like, oh, okay, like this is a hole in the love. So yeah, I'm open to it. I guess I would have to, I'd want to see kind of the shot chart more of it. Um, but you're probably right.

Right. I mean, Brunson's initiating every single thing they're doing, so I'm sure. Plus, like, you can put Brunson on the side for some of these plays, and he's a 45% three-point shooter. Like, you don't need to, I just think when you're in a playoff series, if you're running offense the way the Knicks run offense,

I think over the course of two weeks, it gets easier and easier to at least get used to it. And the more wrinkles they have, I think they're a really interesting offensive team. And I know some of the stats are already pretty good for them. My last one. How hurt do you actually think Lebron is? I don't know.

I mean, it's, it was a weird part of the schedule. It was gonna be really tough. The time the injury happened at the end of the Celtic game and they had already lost. I just thought the stuff in the state championship game, like him jumping around on the sidelines, I, by the way, smart for him to rest up and get his shit together for the playoff run. But, you know, we were talking about this in these, or at least the media

was in these grave terms, LeBron, uh, this might be the rest of the year. I think he's fine. And I think the Lakers have to be taken seriously and I'm not going to waver from that point. Like they showed him shooting today. I think he's fine. Would be my takeaway. Yeah. One, the video started going around him at the high school game and people were checking the depth of the thigh separation.

I love it. Yeah, that's a sturdy stance and his groin is probably in the middle. But then if he goes to the workout this morning, then it all kind of makes sense. It's like, well, yeah, I felt good last night to celebrate. Yeah, I didn't realize until the state championship. I think he's fine. I'm not worried until the state championship. I thought, I think he's fine. Not worried about it. Um, okay.

One thing I was thinking about with the calves and then we'll take a break. I can't believe Orlando. You want to talk about like a game where I'm like, when's this going to be over? Watch the entire game. I'm sure you watched a bunch of it too. Um, I thought it was a bad loss for Cleveland because I was excited for their streak. And I was, and I really wanted them to win. Cause I was like, I love streaks.

Once we get over 16, I'm in. You've always been a huge streak guy. I didn't, I didn't bet on them. I was just, I just love streaks. And, uh, there was some stuff in there that, that I just am filing away in the back of my head, cause I think they're really good. I'd still think they're the favorite in the East, but there's a hunter shot at the end of the game and the, in the corner, my head because I think they're really good I'd still think they're the favorite in the East but there's a hunter shot at the end of the game in the in the corner

Right not a lot of huge. I'm gonna say the Andre hunter hasn't been a lot of huge games The game started to feel a little big right the streaks on the line. They go to him He's wide open the corner. It hits the side of the backboard. I was like, oh, okay Are you saying hunter lacks seasoning? And I was like, Oh, okay. Are you saying Hunter lacks seasoning? Just saying it's, it's, it's, you can go into these playoffs and be 68 and 14, but they have a bunch of guys who have never really been in these massive games. Like Mitchell has, but really that Mitchell dunk today, streus has been in a

couple of big games, but there's some guys that have been. And sometimes when the, when the, the series or the game isn't working out the way you think it is, and all of a sudden you're in the corner and you're like, Oh shit, I got to make this. You haven't been in that spot. I don't know. I just filed it away. Do you, do you file anything away from that game?

Well, then I was just expecting Orlando to lose because they become unwatchable on offense and I think it's turned into bad habit Palo where I give him a pass, but I think he knows how screwed they are most nights. So he goes six of 22 tonight. I thought his decisions based on some of the switching matchups that he had. I was like, why, why are you going to that? Um, but ultimately Anthony black hits two corner threes late and you get a ball game Orlando.

So, you know, this team is 32 and 37. Uh, the offense when they're bad. I know we've covered it before, but I mean, they don't, they shot 42% from three today, Cleveland shot 25 and it still came down to the last few seconds of the game. So, Right. So if you're Cleveland, you're just like, Hey, we didn't shoot, we didn't hit threes. That's why we lost.

Let's move on. I think it's amazing to think of like these two teams going to a game seven, first round series last year, and then just the rocket ship distance that Cleveland has gone from them. We can get to the injury stuff with the record and the time Palos missed and the time Franz has missed. And that Suggs, you know, looking at the on off stuff and how important he's been, but they still shouldn't, since they've had everybody back during this stretch, they still shouldn't be this bad offensively.

So this is a team I'm frustrated with that's different. Like Phoenix, I resent the time I've spent with them. You want it back. Where Orlando, I still enjoy Palo and Franz when it's right so much. But yeah, I'm not telling any and Franz when it's right so much. But yeah, I'm not telling any Magic fan that's watched this. I mean, you've watched your team go for stretches or you're worried if they're ever gonna score again

in the game, that's how bad it can get. It's definitely one of the higher percentages of two seconds left on the shot clock, fall away 20 footer with the hand in your face. They've gotta be in the top three, right? It was tough. Yeah. It was tough having this game up with Michigan and Wisconsin too.

Cause for that game, I just, you were like, when is there going to be a good shot? They interviewed the guard for Michigan and he's out there just strutting. It was like, I think it was two for seven. The game. Hey, can I, can I ask though, a quick clarification? Did you take something from this Cleveland loss that, that infected your playoff brain? Well,

I did a lot of Cleveland work this morning thinking that they were going to win this game and we would lead with the streak. Here's the one thing I can't figure out. Well, Mowgli didn't play, which we should have already mentioned. I get it. Guys, teams miss stuff all the time. The question for me is what's your thing if you're going to win the title? Right? I went back, I went through the last 10 years, like last year with the Celtics, what was their thing?

Ultimately, if you just strip it down, you could describe it in five words. It was like Tatum and Brown are really good together. They're durable. They play well. Usually one of them is having a good game. It's a really special combo and if we had to there's a bunch of other reasons, but let's start there. That's why they won the title. 23, Yoke, Ajamuri. Really special combo. Just that they hit a level. they were the best and that's why they won. 22, Curry, our guy. 21, Giannis. 20, LeBron and AD.

19. And Poole. And Poole. 19, Kawhi. Just went to a great level and they had a really fun team and he was the center force. Did this take a lot of time to research this? I hope not.

Did not. Did not take a lot of time at all. Curry, Katie and Kuei for two years. LeBron and Kyrie. Curry and Kuei. That's the last 10 years. The question for me was I think about could Cleveland win the title? How do we talk about it after it be like, what was their thing?

And I think it would have to be the guards. I think we would have to say, like you could mention all the other thing, but you say, man, their guards were fucking awesome. That's why they won the title. Um, I don't really know what else it would be other than like them shooting 50% from three for the last two rounds, something like that. So I'm just trying to compare them. The last team that you really left the season going, man, I can't believe they got to that level was the 14 Spurs, right? And they had, you're going back,

they had really good players, but they just like, they meshed and they were awesome. And it made sense. And they were so mad about the year before. And they, yeah, and they were driven. They had the hunger. So with Cleveland, I think it would be the guards, unless, what do you think? Would it be something different? If we're talking about them in July, oh yeah, Cleveland, of course they won. They had this, this, this, like, what would be the first thing? Well, if I have to come up with something else, um, you know, I don't think Mobley is going to be somebody that you're running late possessions for and

having everybody like space off of him. He knows his, his passing is really good, but it might just be an adaptability, which is the same thing with OKC. Like, you're pretty sure you know what boss is going to run out there. Yeah. Based on every matchup, they're probably going to run the same thing with OKC in Cleveland. I think the fun part is knowing that they can mix and match a little bit. And it can eat when he closed with that Cleveland lineup, he went Hunter

Mobley and the two guards, which was so I liked it. I love it. I know it's, it's kind of funny. Like I'll never forget when golden state beat Dirk and that Dallas team in the first round, right? We believe. Yeah. And everybody on TV was killing the Mavs for adjusting.

It's like, you're the one seed. You're supposed to make them adjust to you. And I always thought it was like the dumbest thing. I thought it was like so stubborn. So what are you supposed to do? Like just get annihilated every quarter? Yeah. We're the one seed.

We're not subbing bad matchups out. We built this record through six months of hard work and stubbornness. So, you know, I know what you're saying. Could you see this all time? Do they compliment each other enough through four rounds? I just love that team and I, I don't like the default. Well, the Celtics have been through the wars and Cleveland hasn't. enough through four rounds. I just love that team. And I, I don't like the default. Well, the Celtics have been through the wars and Cleveland hasn't. So that's why Cleveland can't beat them. I don't, I don't see it that way. We'll see how I feel when they're playing each other.

You know, I certainly could change my mind on this, but I just feel like league wide, it's the most open mindedness I've had about those three teams. Yeah. I would say I'm still shaded toward Cleveland in that matchup. Cause the hunger piece. So you have Boston third out of the TG hierarchy. Yeah. My life depended on it. I would pick Cleveland, but I don't feel great about it, but I think they're safer bet.

Like I was going through some of the stats with them and you know, first of all, they're 56 and 11, which is nuts. Like they still have a chance to get to 69, but they're first in offense. They're shooting 39% from three. They have nobody over 31.3 minutes a game, which is incredible. They've been really fanatical about keeping everybody fresh for the playoffs, which I think is really going to help them. Hunter's at 51% from three for them, but heading into today's streusel's 42 and

Jerome was 44, so their roll guys are. They have nine guys, man, that I really like. Yeah. So that I understand what all nine guys are supposed to do. And then two 15 game winning streaks in the same seasons. Fifth time it ever happened. It's not a, it doesn't mean you're going to win the title, but the 71 bucks and the 2000 Lakers did it. 97 jazz did it.

They made the finals. Oh, seven sons did it. That was the Robert Hoare year. They were the second best team in the league that year. And then you look at some of the historical stuff with like teams that won 68 games, four titles, two failures, 67 wins, nine titles, four failures, 67 wins, nine titles, four failures, 66 wins, 12 titles, five failures. The odds are like, if they win 66, 67, 68 games, the odds are they're going to make finals. We talked about this last year with the Celtics. Like you can pick them

apart, say they shoot too many threes. The math is saying they're going to make the finals and they're going to beat Dallas. And you can either trust the math or not. With Cleveland, there's a lot of math in their favor if they can finish the season strong, but. They have a tough schedule. They still have like eight road games left, so they might drop. They might end up in the mid sixties. I, I personally think Rosillo. Like OKC to me makes much more sense of us talking about them in July and be like, holy shit.

SGA, nobody could guard them all July and be like, holy shit. SGA, nobody could guard them all year. That team could go big. They could go small. They were deep. They were incredible defensively. The coach is great. They had home court the whole time. It makes sense to me why they won the title.

Cleveland, I'm having a tougher time envisioning it. Yeah. Cause there's no Boston in the West, which is why the fan dual odds, I think it's still plus one 85, plus 185, Boston OKC. And then since we talked about Cleveland the first time a couple of weeks ago, it's gone from plus 700 to plus 500. That's simply because there's just another team. And as we keep talking about this West, like good luck figuring out how those standards

are going to go. And I think it was great to bring up some of the Denver thing because I would imagine that people are going to start getting on that a little bit more where there's just default of Yokech, he'll figure it out. And it's like, man, but, you know, again, I don't know that it's ever fair to really judge them unless you get like a nice runway of Aaron Gordon games. Cause I think he's just incredibly important. He might be, well, I can't say he's the second most important guy because of Jamal, but he's definitely the third most important player on a team here that

you still have expectations for, but don't, couldn't you look at the history too on some of the point differential stuff, the defensive differential stuff? Like, okay. See, and actually Cleveland have these similar, similar profiles where, cause I did the Cleveland thing a couple of weeks ago when I did that disastrous 15 teams in 45 minutes with the East. It was supposed to be 15, but I just kept trying to find something on offense that Cleveland was bad at,

statistically, like, Hey, catch and shoot this, pick and roll ball handle this, pick and roll, roll, man, this, spot all these, every single number. Like the only one I found was like 15th in the NBA out of all the different things you could sort and try to figure out what it was because everything else was like first or second, they're just that good, but it's also happening on the point differential thing. When you look at that, it comes up speaking to the Boston number that you're talking about last year. It's like, Hey, these teams, when they have this, they'll win a title.

And we have two kind of at the same time. Right. Right. And then you have a Celtics team that I think has been really careful about the regular season because the last season, you know, though, and one of the things I think that's been so great, I love the Tatum season, like just a plus I have positive reviews, five stars. I'm going to, I'll do the tit like whatever.

This would be a wine bottle season potentially. Might be, could be, could be breaking out the Cabernet for him though. The Tatum, the 25 Tatum Cabernet. They've done five times this year, where they're just like, Jason, we're just gonna play a bunch of those, like Bailey Shireman's gonna play today. Is that cool?

They give us like 35 minutes. Just the two of your teammates at all times are gonna be guys who are usually in the G League, but we're gonna try to beat Brooklyn anyway. Are you cool? We'll just run, just don't get hurt, but also play really hard. And he just, he does everything. I think his defense has been great. Like, and Giannis has really come on too. And I think that's a good argument. Giannis or Tatum for the number three for MVP,

but the top four that we have this year, I think has been, uh, pretty awesome. And then Mitchell I think is a good fit choice too. Yeah. They had to play what? Pershingus 32 minutes last night is the Hillbuff that late Brooklyn rally. Uh, and I want to watch that game. Cause I was really into the schedule last night, just cause the, you know, not just cause the Sunday pod, there was just a lot of different stuff. I want to see what Pershingus looked like coming back. And then they ended up having to leave them out there for a good chunk of it. But yeah, I mean, I, I can totally see a version of this too, as much as I love

Cleveland and I think it's kind of out there for a good chunk of it. But yeah, I mean, I, I can totally see a version of this too, as much as I love Cleveland. And I think it's kind of surprising that both of us kind of leaning towards, we feel like we pick them right now against Boston, that the, the funny, like, and I still don't know what I'm actually going to think when they're, when they're facing each other, right? How they're going to look to the first couple of rounds of playoffs. Like I can totally see myself change my mind on it.

I just don't know how you watch Cleveland these last couple months and be like, no, I'll pick somebody else. And, but I think I know what'll happen. It'll be, hey, the guard still got stuck between, you know, whatever version of Drew you're gonna see, you hope that's a bit ramped up in the playoffs, or it would be by then, he'd just be better.

Cause I think it's kind of hit or miss right now. But it's, Hey, look, those four perimeter guys out there with a spacing big that took away whatever big they wanted to keep out there or the times where Tatum gets on Allen and he's actually beating Allen off the dribble. It's like, Hey, you know, cool De'Andre Hunter trade, but they still got caught up in way too many mismatches on the printer and those guys were just too small. It was, it was, there were too many times where it was Garland and Mitchell having to go up against these other dudes with the ball in their hands, which is why I would have never ever picked them.

And I think that maybe I'm overrating the Hunter part of it, but that would be what it is. You're not, you're properly rating it. So there's another piece that I can't shake is the hunger piece of it. The Celtics having already won in Cleveland, never winning. There was John Krasinski who writes for the New York Times, and he's the piece that I can't shake is the hunger piece of it. The Celtics having already won in Cleveland, never winning. There was John Krasinski who writes for the athletic, uh,

Timberwolves different one, but he re he led a thing. He wrote about Minnesota and Denver this week. John's awesome by the way. So I should have made that. He's, he's one of my favorites. No, no, we both like them. This was his first two paragraphs. Um, he said long after the Timberlake's had vanquished the defending champion, Denver nuggets on their home floor in game seven, the Western conference semi-finals last season, a nuggets official emerged from the locker room and started walking down the hallway of the parking lot. They remind me a lot of us last year. He said, shaking his head.

They just wanted it so damn bad. We couldn't match it. I think that's like the number one thing to think about when we go in the playoffs. I think, okay, seeing Cleveland are going to, are going to be maniacs because they've never won, you know, and if you're the Celtics, you won last year, there's this extra gear you have to have when you're going back to back, you have to be able to match whatever that other team is bringing. That's like all I want.

Like it's like the Eagles Chief Super Bowl, same thing. The Eagles just wanted it more than the Chiefs. Now they were better, there were all these other reasons, but ultimately that was a way bigger game for them because the Chiefs had already won. And I just keep thinking about that with these playoffs. I was thinking about it Wednesday night watching OKC play the Celtics.

The Celtics kept trying to match the intensity of the game and OKC just was like hungrier. I think SGA is like a fuck. He's fucking on a mission. Have you seen that guy play a bad game? Does that guy ever suck anymore? Uh, he's unbelievable. I know that you can go back to the Nick series stuff or, or some times where, you know, I think it's, it's being a little too critical. You're trying to have me come up with an answer. I can point to a series a couple years ago.

But I mean, this dude's played in 54 playoff games. He's never played in more than 11. And that was actually that first year when they beat, I think that first year they beat the Oklahoma City Thunder in the first round, they lost to the Rockets in the second round. Who are you talking about? Mitchell, he's played 54 playoff games.

The guy averaged 28 a game in the playoffs. I mean, he averaged 36 a game. The third year he was with Utah in the playoffs when they had that awesome Phoenix series. We both think he could be the best guy on a title too. Denver, I always say Phoenix. Yeah, it was the Denver series. Yeah, I think I don't have anything negative to say.

I don't have anything negative to say about any of those teams. I don't know how, I have no idea of sitting here, not being around either teams day to day of understanding the pride of the champ versus the hunger of the challenger. I don't know how anybody could come up with it. I think it's really hard to win back to back.

That's my biggest favorite with the Celts. That's why I picked OKC in the summer. Yeah. Let's take one more break. Grab your friends. Nova Kane? I thought you'd be dead by now. Get to the theater and experience the movie audiences are calling. An adrenaline rush of a good time.

It's a big screen blast. Find a bad ass. I know. All right. Novocaine now playing. I mentioned that I wanted to do this, and then I remembered about 40 minutes after I said we're going to do it. Best third guy in the league. Should this be an award?

It make more sense than the Clutch Guy award. So I'll just give you by record in descending order, best third guys, Darius Garland, Chet Holmgren, Derek White, Van Vliet, Desmond Bain, Austin Reeves, Aaron Gordon, Draymond, Pickenick, Brooke Lopez, Nasried, Zubach, Miles Turner. Who is the best third guy in the league? Cause I think you could make a real case that's Holmgren. I can't believe how good Holmgren is.

If he's healthy, I can't believe how good he is. Yeah. I think I'd have to see. I'm with you, but I think you'd have to see just maybe two straight months of it. Fair. Fair. Ron Holland is not on this. Let me add him.

Ron. Just put him on there. Did he, did he get in a fight in the last four days? Did he have to be separated from anybody? No, but that whole Pistons thing last night, it kind of started with him. Yeah. Which I know no one's going to believe me on. Do you want to do two minutes on the Pistons and Vickers staff lose?

Please, nothing would make me happier. I was so excited to watch that game last night, OKC in Detroit. And, you know, Cade was struggling a bit. And it's OKC. Cade had a rough game until he got kicked out. Was great for him. And so there was a play where Dort was going

to set a screen and Holland embellished it. And Holland got the call. He got the foul on Dort. So now you're like, Dort's going to be looking for it. So not that far after. There was also a play earlier where it looked like Jayden Williams and Isaiah Stewart went to kill each other in the paint with just elbow box out shit. So that, so like whenever I see an Isaiah Stewart

altercation, I rewind four possessions to try to find what's happened. He's like lamb beer. Yeah. It's the seeds to the altercation. Yeah, anybody that's ever watched Hoops, like you just know like, okay, wait a minute. Like if I'm late on a game, I'm like something else

already happened. Yeah. Let me go back and check this. Although Plumlee and Adams had a good one the other night when the funny thing is his Adams is in the middle of an assault with a seven footer and he's smiling the whole time. So I can't tell what's scarier that Plumlee like wanted to go and his forehead was bleeding or that Adams was completely unfazed and is laughing about it two

seconds later. That might be more horrifying. I don't think he gets enough credit in the scariest guys of the century ranking, Steven Adams. Cause what did he have like 17 brothers and sisters? He was clearly in 7 million fights. He's from New Zealand. I don't feel like there's any NBA altercation

on a basketball court that he would even like break a drop a sweat to be involved in. Like he could have been in the artest melee smiling as people were climbing over the ropes. But remember how mad I got at him during that OKC Houston playoff series and that had a lot to do with Chris Paul going up against Harden. Oh yeah.

And I was so upset that PJ Tucker's playing center. Yeah. And I'm like, how can Steven Adams not? And I was like, I'm questioning his toughness. And it was like the lead on the six o'clock news in Auckland. So I- I remember that. The New Zealand people,

cause they're mostly with us, but it'll be a new story right now in New Zealand that we're even talking about him. They love all Steve and Adam's conversations. Right, I was like, how can he be the scariest guy? And then when he gets an offensive rebound, he can't just turn around from two feet out with a six foot seven center behind him.

So is there part of that going to the equation? Probably not on the, like he might be so good at altercations, the physical part of it, that it bores him. So is there part of that going to the equation? Probably not on the, like he might be so good at altercations, the physical part of it, that it bores him and that's why he was laughing. Although again, it's still another seven footer and an athletic guy in Plumlee. But anyway, back to the, so Stewart and Jaylen Williams too

have a thing. Holland sells the call, Dort then gets him right back where he embellishes it, then he gets the call. Then you have the Dort groin thing where he actually stepped on SGA's ankle. So at this point, Bickerstaff is really mad about the Holland thing. Whereas any coach or any competitor, he's completely ignoring that his guy got one just a couple possessions ago. Then they review it because Stewart actually threw Jalen Williams 2 out of the way on a

box out, but then they didn't care about it. Um, it w that it wasn't a hostile act. And then obviously the door part wasn't a hostile act and Bickerstaff was upset about the Holland part of that call. He was also upset cause he said all of this in the presser. He was, I could watch it. I could see like him just, he was getting to a point, but you know what? He was really, he was also getting to a point

where he was only seeing the shit that was happening to his team, which is the most human nature thing ever. I don't know why Chad, or excuse me, I don't know why Chad got thrown out. I was watching Cade. Chad is not. Or Chad or Chad.

I don't know why any of those three guys got thrown out. I don't know why Cade got thrown out. I watched it. It seemed like he got his technical and then kind of wouldn't let it go, but I don't know why Kade got thrown out. I watched it. It seemed like he got his technical and then kind of wouldn't let it go, but I don't know what he was like. Clearly it was enough that the rest were over it. And at that point, I think another thing I've spent too long on this SGA is so incredibly frustrating and yes, there's that layer of bullshit with him.

That's not as bad as the other guys, all bullshit, all NBA for he's not, he may be second team. But it just gets so frustrating that it's this boiling point and bigger staff just like, basically I'm going to stick up for my guys here tonight, but I thought he was also ignoring some of the stuff that was going their way too. No, no, I have a couple of thoughts. Um, I don't think, I think when you're throwing out somebody out of a game, you

have to factor in with the reputation is day to day, week to week as a player. And Cade's not a guy who gets technicals, gets thrown out of games. Like you can't, you can't throw them out. Just like, I don't think they would throw a LeBron out in that situation. Like there's just certain guys you gotta, whereas like if it was Draymond, I get it. Yeah. But Draymond actually doesn't get thrown out. Like if Draymond was doing what Cade was doing last night, I don't know why the hell I called him Chad,

it's gonna bug me for the rest of the night. Draymond doesn't get thrown out. Like he's allowed to do whatever he wants. Just like Cade, I thought that was an awesome game. You're in Detroit, you've got a great crowd. It was a good battle. Like I just,. You've got a great crowd. Um, it was a good battle. Like I just, I'm not throwing guys out of that game if I don't have to, it was a bad job by the refs. I thought Vicarstaff should have been mad,

but I think you're right. I think you hit on something with the SGA thing. He is like trying to wrestle a fucking shark in a boat. Like it was like, he did a couple moves last night. There was, there were, well, first of all, it seemed like he might've shoved off, but the guy went like 10 feet backwards, but he had another move where he dusted somebody on that yo-yo move he does, and then just went right in the lane. And there was a center waiting for him. And he went into the guy, held it, whipped it left-handed. It went in.

He's doing shit night to night now. That's at the highest possible offensive level that I've seen from a guard and it's night after night after night now. He had two moves last night where I was surprised that he did them because I had, he had this spindle back into the paint where he was still totally in control. And that was always the first thing with him just watching. It wasn't that he was Westbrook like bounce. It wasn't that it was the D Rose change of direction with him. It wasn't that he was Westbrook like bounce. It wasn't that it was the D Rose change of direction with him.

It's just that he's this figure skater out in the court. Perky jerky shit. Just attached to him. Full speed stop. Stop, come backwards. He had two moves that I don't remember seeing him have before. And so he factored all that. Go ahead.

Is he the number one guy that when they talk about breaking ankles, if somebody actually broke their ankles defending somebody, he would be like a minus 800 favorite on fan bill to be the ankle breaker guy. Guys, guys fly backwards, guys try to stop. He just like completely embarrasses and he's embarrassing good defenders. Like pick a garden the league, like he's, he does that yo-yo thing and it just works. I think he's peak of his powers right now.

I know bigger staff also pointed to, you know, how mad he was that they didn't review and it was like a respect thing. Like, Hey, they're disrespecting us. And I get where he's coming from, but I mean, Detroit also fouls, I think the fifth highest rate of any team in the league this year, and there were possessions at the end with Thompson getting in the mix and, and Schroeder getting in the mix where I couldn And there were possessions at the end with Thompson getting in the mix and Schroeder getting in the mix. I couldn't believe they actually weren't calling fouls. I'll watch some guys with SGA 30 feet away from the hoop and Thompson comes in and you're like,

why are you sticking your arms inside of his arm? He's just going to get you. I mean, shit, if he was doing that to Dame, Dame would have just pulled up and then got pissed at the ref being like, you didn't think I was really trying to shoot from 38 feet. I think you would have, I think you're a viewer, a head coach. I think you would have been a great every once in a while press conference, killing the ref, sticking up for your guys guy. Wouldn't have happened often, maybe twice a year, but I think I could have totally seen you doing the press conference last night like JB did.

Banged the table at the end, storm out. I feel like you could have done it. I would have been more like the quiet, sarcastic, I can't believe you threw me out for that just because I made 14 barbs in a row under my breath. You would have done like a Stan Van Gundy routine. I'd be like, I'm getting thrown out for that just because I called you a dumb motherfucker

under my breath 10 times as you ran by and then you finally got mad and threw me out. What? What did I do? That would have been my move. When we had Ty Jerome on and I was talking about him getting calls, right? Yeah.

And we started talking about like the working of the officials and everything. And he just basically said what you would expect of anybody when they're out there is they kind of lose their minds. It's like being a high school kid in the woods and the cops show up and they're like, what are you doing? And you go nothing.

No, like as if the cops like, oh, okay, we'll leave then, you know, and your first thing when you watch these guys spazz out about the calls and, you know, look, I don't really love it, but I also kind of just have to accept what it is. And Ty was just going, dude, I can't help myself sometimes. He's dude, I can't help myself sometimes. He's like, I can't help myself. Like he's like, I'll bitch and I'll complain. He goes, and then I'll see it.

I'll feel bad. But like in that moment, I don't even realize what I'm doing. Yeah. And I, I just don't know. Like if I were a coach, it was kind of funny too, cause we had Will Hardy on it. I was like, did you have a moment where you were like, Hey, I'm a head coach. Like I get to, I should argue one of these calls soon. Cause some of these guys can't stop.

They can't. There's nothing that's not their possession. There's never a moment. Like they cannot, like whatever it is, that competitive moment when you're in there. So I would, I would think it'd be such a waste of energy to just keep working the officials the entire time, but I don't think they can do it.

Like I'll give you one other example. The second time Yukon played St. John's this year, Danny Hurley, who's, you know, just a maniac the entire game. Yeah. There was some kind of tie up and I think it was a possession, but it was possession Yukon and they were going to inbound it from the side and he argued that they were inbounding it from the wrong spot, but that would have meant his team was inbounding on their own end at the baseline, which is a way harder inbounds.

You would never prefer to be inbounding it from the baseline corner. It's just a harder place to inbound it and yet Danny was- He couldn't pass up the argument. He was right. Yeah. So I don't know if I have this right, but I want to ask him, were you so incensed in that moment that they were wrong, that you actually argued something that was. Like a negative for you guys on the inbounds. And that's what I think we watch.

We watch these guys and they only see when it's happening to them. They think they're getting screwed for two and a half hours. And I like to try to accept the human nature part of it, but sometimes you're just like, dude, you're, you're not paying any attention to the stuff that's actually going your way, but against SGA, no one ever gets done with one of those games because he is pushing off, he is grabbing with the arms. Again, I don't think it's as bad as like the first round draft picks, the guys that bullshit their way through a game who, you know, like there's certain players, if everybody played that way, the ratings would be zero.

Um, but I don't know that anybody, I don't think a coach can actually watch a game and go, you know, we've gotten a few calls here tonight. I don't think they can do it. I was trying to think of, as you were talking, I was trying to think of like that coach referee relationship or player referee relationship. And it's the thing I think as both you and I got to know people in the league better and just get under the hood a little bit. And it's so fascinating, which guys hate other guys. Just certain coaches have certain refs

that they just detest. And the ref knows they're detested. And then it's like, oh, Tuesday night, we got this guy. Fucking, fucking hate this guy. This is a huge part of the league. It came out a little bit with the Chris Paul Scott Foster stuff, but every player has one or two people that they just see and like, ah, this fucking guy. And I wonder like, okay, see part of their magic.

SGA doesn't talk any shit at all. Right. He just does his job, keeps his head down. Dagnaught, I think, argues with the refs, probably the least of any coach. I don't know if I'd say the least. When he gets hot though, he can get really hot. But it's, it's, it's only a handful of times. Missoula will get after it every once in a while.

And especially if you've sat close to the Celtic game, he's doing a lot of stuff like he's, he's riding refs left and right. You can't, some of the better coaches are really good at not having it seem like on TV, like they're riding the guys. Cause that's what that refs hate. They don't want to be, they don't want to be embarrassed. They don't want to look like they're taking shit. So sometimes you'll see like Kurt is really good at it. He'll walk over to a ref and it'll seem like he's talking to the guy and I'm

really conciliatory, right? But he learned this from Papa, which he'll come over and be like, hey, you realize you fucking suck, right? Like that was the worst fucking call ever. They'd see a smile on your face and it seems like they're just talking, but he's like laying into the guy. But he also can become unhinged.

Like Kerr will have an unhinged moment where you're like. Because he's a former player, the former players. Redick does this now too. Redick will just lose it every once in a while. Redick, and with him you're like, are you going to, because he gets so incredibly intense. Which is not surprising because, you know, Redick was the kind of guy in first take

when it started going in a direction he didn't want. He wasn't gonna be like, hey, let's just all have fun, we're on TV. He's like, you're a fucking moron, and you shouldn't be on TV. You're like, all right. Fuck this shit, let's go to commercial. Fuck you. Uh, no, that's a good question. Cause like doc, I remember you can ask him about this next time you have him on. Well, bill Kennedy was the guy that he, he, him and bill Kennedy, like they literally

hated each other. Okay. But the thing was with doc and he would admit it. Like I asked him once, I was like, do you ever think about like how much you work the refs? He's like, I complain too much. He's like, I complain way too much. And it's from the initial tip. It's just on. And when those Clippers teams had Chris Paul, Blake, Deandre Jordan, and then Austin Rivers was like, fuck it, I'm in the mix. Those guys just hammered refs the entire time. And that's where I think- But if you're the ref, you're refing the Clippers and you're like, fuck. Oh, I got the Clippers tonight. I hate these guys. That's where I'm like, I understand the working the refs. You can't just be quiet the whole time, but I think there's this element of you've expended so much energy into this. And now every one of

your players is thinking about the refs because our guy, our head coach, all he's doing is thinking about the refs. And there's, there's a point of absolute diminishing returns where it just may come back to like the guy cannot help himself. There's too many guys that can't help themselves. I would think the best way to go about it is to like lay out to be really. Like Stephen, Stephen used to do that. Stephen's was always the most mellow and just had that kind of calm demeanor. But you know another thing, they,

so Tatum, I think Tatum's one of the, like, Tatum is just a great guy. He's a good role model. Tatum's a pool rating right now. It's crazy. He's just a good guy. But Tatum does like three, four terrible, stupid things with refs that he can't stop doing.

He does the wave. You do that. You don't get the call on your way back and you do the fucking wave. That's a technical. You're just getting a technical for that. Yeah. It's not even like, you might as well go toward them and like shake your fist or something, but he does this passive aggressive stuff, which I think they hate

even more like, fuck you dad. I'm teeing you up for that. Fuck you. How dare you wave at me. Um, but the best one I ever saw going to games over the years was dealing with the refs was Jordan, but I think there was so much star power with Jordan. They almost feel like this helps the goat case. If you're talking goats, the way the refs were just in his pocket.

And I'm not talking about him getting calls. I'm talking about like during the dead spots when people are shooting free throws before the game, these guys treated him like, you know, it was like Beyonce walking on stage and they were like in the Bay hive, you know, they just, it was especially the last three years after he came back. He just had a command of the fans, the refs, the room. He got every call he wanted.

If he was upset at a call, he could say whatever he wanted. If he was yelling at a ref, the ref was like kind of bummed out. It's like, Oh, Michael Jordan doesn't like, doesn't like how I'm reffing today. Like you can actually see them. Like they would just kind of lose it. He was the best. Kobe had a little of that in the second part of the Kobe too. they would just kind of lose it. He was the best. Kobe had a little of that. I'm so good.

Part of the Kobe too. That was another one who had it. Richard Jefferson had that story that he had on the broadcast. By the way, shout out to Richard. I think he's been really fun on the ESPN call, but he had this story where Kobe was going up and then everybody was complaining and they were like, he was passing. He wasn't shooting. It should be side out. It shouldn't be free throws. And Kobe was like, I then everybody was complaining and they were like, he was passing, he wasn't shooting. It should be side out, it shouldn't be free throws.

And Kobe was like, I haven't passed all night. Right. It was like, it was over. That's it, that's done. Yeah, he's a good one. Second best third banana? That was a good tangent for us. Chet Holmgren one, would you have Derek White two?

Garland, Bain, Reeves. Who's your third banana? How crazy is this? I mean, you want to just, you know what the other part of this is? This, these are the names that we have when you talk about the, uh, the, the league and the lack of the big three stuff that we were always so used to there for awhile, right? Bridges is in there. Draymond, Nas Reed has been playing great. I don Bridges is in there. Dremond. Naz Reid has been playing great.

I don't know. Paul George. He's pretty deep these days. Still in the mix. Yeah. The league is deep, but I'm just saying, like, I think for this to be the group is Mobley. So Mobley's two to Mitchell.

So that means Garland's three. Then I think it's Garland's three. So Garland number two. So you go home rune one, Garland two, or Garland one home rune two? I'd say Garland. I'd say Garland ahead of Chet just because it's Garland's three. So Garland number two. So you go home green one, Garland two, or Garland one home green two. I'd say Garland ahead of Chet just because he's done it all season long. Garland one, home green two, Derek White three. Would you rather have Mikhail Bridges or Derek White? I'd rather have Derek White.

Sugs doesn't count. Nope. He's out for the year. Bane. Grady Dick. Reeves is in the mix. Like when you're talking like the four to six range. That's the whole point of this exercise.

Had him right there too. Had him seven. Um, and then Nas, the way Nas is playing was the other one. Dude, I don't know. I might put Jaden over him now. I'm loving what I'm seeing from Jaden lately, but. All NBA watch. I think Jokic, Tatum, Janis, SGA, Mitchell at the top is, is in pen at this point.

Second team. is, is in pen at this point. Second team. So there's four guards for second team and third team. Edwards, Curry, Brunson, Cade. Brunson looks like he's going to be out for at least a couple more weeks. He's at 61 games right now. Yeah. The news today was one to two more weeks to see where we're at.

So that doesn't seem to be good. I think there's a real Curry case if they can move into, if they could become a top four seed. Um, I think there's a real Curry case if they can move into it, they can become a top four seed. Um, I think there's a Curry case. I would have had Brunson and Edwards or Brunson and Cade if it was just two cards. But I think Curry's now in the mix. I don't know how it plays out. Not willing to commit.

Um, and then I think Shangoone with the fact that Houston hasn't gone away. If you look at his stats, if you look at the on-off stuff with him, if you watch the games and see how important he is in the fourth quarters for them, um, I think there's a Shen Goon case now. If you want to pick a center for third team, if you want to put Jaron Jackson and town second team together and save a spot for Shen Goon, I just think he's in the mix now. So is Dame the way Dame's playing.

Hard and obviously I think Jaylen Brown just because of the Celtics, uh, Garland. I don't know. Third team is, third team is still in the, in the, uh, in progress, I will say. Yeah. Not that much has changed me from, from last week to this week, but I mean, are you going to end up going Shungoon if Houston's a two seed, but it's only separated by like a couple games?

That's where I think you guys lose your mind on the seeding stuff. Because like at any point, if you thought Shungoon's one of the 15 best players in the NBA this year, I guess your answer is no, because it's no for me. And he's been nice and they're putting together

a winning streak and all that kind of stuff. He had probably one of the best passes, maybe the single best pass of the season, but again, that's not enough to make all NBA. But I think sometimes you guys, when you really, really start emphasizing the seed of stuff. He had probably one of the best passes, maybe the single best pass of the season, but again, that's not enough to make all NBA. But I think sometimes you guys, when you really, really start emphasizing the seeding stuff. You guysing me? Yeah, I am. I'm you guysing you.

Because I hear it all the time with the SGA Jokic stuff, which I would imagine Thunder fans weren't arguing for Harden to win MVP when they were a three seed, and OKC was a six seed when Westbrook won it in 17. So the Thunder fans that are arguing strictly the standings being the tiebreaker between SGA and Yoke Hitch, like I don't know, man. I think a lot of times you're going to put Shen Goon on an all NBA, even if they're two games ahead of the fifth seed.

First of all, I don't appreciate being you guys. I did. I don't do it to you. Second of all, um, as you know, I'm a traditionalist and I want a center on my third team. And there's, if Jaren Jackson and Towns make second team, I have a center spot for the third team. So at that point, I don't know who the other options are

for center. I mean, it's Wemby's spot. Wemby went out. It's not my fault. It's not youby went out. It's not my fault. It's not you guys' fault. That's not your fault, you're right. That part I'll concede. The thing for me is, I think ultimately, when we finally get to game 82, I might have trouble putting Townes, second team OMBA,

with some of the defense stuff I've watched. I've been watching it more carefully. I might not be able to get there with him as a second team all NBA guy. There's some just, I mean, Yokoch has him too. Yokoch has some bad defensive possessions too. There's some just god awful town's defensive possessions. So I'm factoring that in as well. He's either second or third team.

He's going to make one of my three teams. Yeah. But are you going to have Shingun, if you're a traditionalist, you're going to have Shingun second team all NBA? No, I'm saying moving towns from, I think Jaron Jackson's looking like he's going to be second team. He'd be a lot of this out plays out. Yeah. Yeah. So the question is whether towns can sneak in there or not. Ideally towns goes to third team. I might do three guards for second team too. I don't know. We could talk about that. Yeah. But the Jaren Jackson part of it, like he's in, he's a, he's a forward.

Yeah. But he, I mean, you can sneak him as a, as a pseudo center. You're a revolutionary. He's a pseudo center. Who else do they have at center other than the ED? Jay Huff, Brandon Clark. He's basically a center. He's a, he's no less of a center than like Bam out of Iowa is. Yeah. But Bam was legitimately stuck playing center the whole time until this

where thing came along this year. Um, a couple other things I care about before we go. And I do want to give you the floor for college hoops so you can give us five minutes to tell us what to look for. If you don't really care. Uh, the Philly Brooklyn, Toronto comedy of the five, six, seven spots in the draft are just all time hilarious. Quentin Green, Quentin Grimes goes on a heater today.

I didn't watch one minute of it. Um, and, and Philly beats Dallas and now it's just, somebody's going to get fucked and somebody's going to get bounced backwards and wonder why they had the season they had to not even get a top seven pick. So Brooklyn is 22 wins. Philly is 23. Toronto is 24. I have no idea why Toronto is trying to compete in these games.

Philly doesn't want to compete, but one anyway. And then Brooklyn's whole season has been designed for them not to be good, and they just keep foiling themselves. Who's gonna get the five spot out of these teams, Brasila? Brooklyn, Philly, or Toronto? Toronto, I believe, maybe they're second again, but the last time I sent it to you,

because you and I are invested in the under Because they're insanely irrational fan base like lost their minds because we all took the under yeah At one point there it was a complete lock because I looked at it was like they're gonna have to go 500 over their last 20 to go over and so I mean at one point I think they were 8 and 31 Yeah, you know there was no point did I go like, Hey, this and granted they've been hurt, but like, even if they were healthy, the problem is they play. Like, I think when you have these guys, they're on NBA life support, they're playing their asses off.

I watched that Philly game the other night where Rodin had 20 something. And you, you know, you're going to go back through and be like, where the hell did this guy come from or whatever? And so. It's a JT Thor in game 82, just going nuts. I think they have the third best record against the spread in the NBA this year. So Toronto's Toronto's been. One Phoenix's last.

Uh, I'm pretty sure that's true. I think Phoenix is 20 games under 500 with the spread this year, which is almost impossible. Well, Philly Philly's win today really hurt them because being at six, all they have to do is get jumped by one team and they lose their pick and just OKC winning the title and then getting the seventh pick in the draft would be nuts. A couple other things, we're in a Houston, Memphis, Denver, two, three, four, basically a tie right now.

By the way, has anyone ever discussed why Dallas took on 30 million and guaranteed money with Caleb Martin and moved out crimes? Well, now I guess that's because they couldn't come up with a contract extension, but he was still restricted. So you could have just matched it, but that one doesn't make a ton of sense. At that point. Well, Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt yet, right? Davis hadn't gotten hurt yet either And they had traded for Christie That trade looks awful now, I always like Grimes Houston Memphis Denver all together

So that's the two three four and then Lakers Golden State, Minnesota all separated by one win basically Or two, I guess the Lakers had the upper hand on that. And then in the East, the East is pretty boring. It's basically Milwaukee to Indy to Detroit, just kind of fighting it out for four, five, six. And I'm not sure it really matters. I went through and did the last 15, you know, I always like to look at offense and defense and do it every few days.

And I did it this morning again. And when you go through the offenses and what's happening here in the East the last month, the West has 13 of the top 19 offenses in the NBA in the last month. So then you just start going through all these other teams. You're like, Oh my God, these times are falling apart, except for Toronto, who's just, um, doing it with defense. This team's been playing like really good defense and pulling out all these games. And what'd you see the Celtic schedule the last month?

It's like, I'm probably not as cakewalks as you did. No, and I just looked at it to see what good games are left. And it's like, it's just a bunch of shit games, even like their West coast. They have one more like road trip and even that one, there's only two tough ones left. So, and they know that they're locked in the number two seat. So it's going to be, you know, it's usually be night out, get ready to see more Bailey Shireman, all those fucking people. So just to, just to update everybody.

So again, Toronto and January 11th was eight and 31. So that means they're 16-13 for two months. How is that possible? With that team, with all of the guys basically not playing now for a while. If I look it up here post-All-Star break, let me see how many games these dudes have played in. Well, RJ, well, I guess they played in more than I thought.

Hey, can I welcome you to a special part of the show, which is brought to you today by Audi with their all new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron? Yeah. We have the, uh, the Celtic city documentary that's going on HBO and a max and it runs on Mondays nine o'clock and we did, uh, episode two is about Bill Russell. Did you ever do the exercise? I know it's hard to cross eras, but did you ever do the exercise of if you put Russell now, I don't think he can be the same height and weight.

I think you almost have to make him 2025 Russell. So maybe make him like six 11, but that skillset that he had, what that, what would that look like now? Cause I actually think he there's a thought that it'd be like, I'd be being out of bio and it's, um, I think you have to add the better shoes, the better conditioning, all the diets, all the advantages they have now. I actually think he would be as impactful as he was 60 years ago is my hot take.

But what do you think? Cause there's more athletes now, the game's different, you need shooting. Obviously he wouldn't be able to space the floor. There would be some stuff that would be a little weird, but how do you see like when you, when you try to translate the guys from the sixties to now, is it just impossible or are there things you think you could take? It always felt incredibly disrespectful to just go, okay, well, he's 6'8 and 225 and, you know, he'd be a role guy and it's Bill Russell. So I never wanted to do that. Maybe if I were really young, I'd be that way.

But then every single person would tell you that saw him play, like he would, he would figure it out. It's like, what, would he grow? You know, so like, what are we talking about here? It's almost like Michael Kidd Gilchrist size. He was 6'9 and 5'8. So that's basically Tatum's height. I think Tatum's legitimately 6'9. Yeah.

Gilchrist is shorter than that. So I shouldn't say that, but look, I got to interview him once. It was probably one of the biggest thrills of my career and everybody asked him the So I shouldn't say that, but you know, look, I got to interview him once. It was probably one of the biggest thrills of my career and everybody asked him the same thing and he's just like, I was going to run these guys. So is it, is it a Mowgli without the three in the corner a couple of times a game? Is it Mowgli like Mowgli 2.0, a crazy, crazy version of him where he's just all over the place like having the greatest game of his life, but that's just him like game.

The part that would be interesting to me is just how everything, because I read up on him, um, after we had episode two, I just went on a Russell deep dive bench and it's the competitiveness thing that is just the over and over thing. Right. He was just like psychotically competitive, which is what Jordan had too. So I think it'd be interesting to take that and just put that into the current basketball season and league pass and like even put him in an all-star game and all

of these different, um, you know, things that we were always mad that the guys aren't trying harder, why are they going through the motions? And he just couldn't really do that until the tail end of his career when he started to run out of gas. So what was it he's, he's seven and O in game sevens. I mean, some of the, I had some of the stats I had for you. Right. And then I think there's some other ridiculous one where.

No, he's 16 and two in elimination games. Okay. He was 10 and O in game sevens against Wilt. He was 84 and 58. The interesting thing is like there's, and I wrote a thing in my book about it, like just the myths that come out of the Russell Wilt thing. And one of the myths is like, Oh, Wilt's numbers were so much better than Russell's. And then you go to the playoffs, they average the same amount of rebounds. Russell's, and then you go to the playoffs. They average the same amount of rebounds.

Wilt had 24.5 rebounds in 160 games. Russell had 24.9, so he had more rebounds. Russell had 4.7 assists. Wilt had 4.2. And then Wilt scored 22.5 points and Russell had 16.2. So in the playoffs, which is that's 160 games, not a small sample size, you got six more points a game from Wilt, and Russell was better at everything else,

but Russell was also the greatest teammate of all time, and the best defensive player of all time. I don't know what we're arguing. And then the other thing was the supporting cast, which I debunked pretty quickly. Yeah, Russell, first five years of Wilt's career, Russell had better teammates. Then the next, the rest of Wilt's career,

he always had the best teammates. You know, so you can't say that one either. Yeah, he's weirdly become underrated, partially because there's no stats that capture some of the stuff he did. Like, we didn't keep track of blocks until 1973. So he was just like, yeah, Russell had a lot of blocks that game.

And that's how we talked about him in like game seven of a conference finals. Whereas like kept track of points and rebounds. So yeah, I think he's underrated. He's fallen out of the go conversation, even though he won the most. Everyone in his era has talked about how incredible he was and there was no greater winner, all that stuff. So obviously there's some hybrid,

but to me he's still in the top four all time. Yeah, the year they got them, 66, 67 season, where Will did his- Loaded Sixers team. Yeah, they had 68 wins. So I remember growing up, and again, it was all just kind of legend, right? Before you had access, maybe somebody would buy you a book and you go back

and read some of this stuff, but it was always a, well, didn't have, didn't have the same guys and have the same guys. And then you're like, well, they won 68 games one year and then they won 62 the next year when everybody thought Boston was done and then Boston beats them in the playoffs again. So. No, I don't never know what to do with Wilt because all the numbers look make belief, but it would feel incredibly dismissive to look at Russell's size

and go, he would just be this rotational guy that would, you know, match up in a, he'd be your small ball five center. You know, it just seems wrong. And maybe there's just no point in even doing it. Cause it's. That's probably the answer. It would be, it would basically be what Jonathan Isaac was doing last year in the magic and those 20 minute stretches multiplied by five, but he

would have been doing it for eight straight months every year. Wow. We were like, holy shit, Russell had 17 blocks. I think what I like the most is the last title that they got against the Lakers. Yeah. Like that one where people think it's kind of over. And I also loved in the doc where it was just very classic. And this is another example of things never change is that post-Red stepping

down, they make Bill Russell player coach. And so if you do something different and it doesn't work, it's way worse than just doing it the same and not having it work. So then it's a Russell thing and then it totally works out. And then as Russell wins a title, there's a press conference two days after and someone asks Red, like, Hey, what did you actually think about the coaching and the tone of it is, they won. And Red's just like sitting there.

And I think the access, you know, all the different historical stuff that you guys have put into this, and I know there's so many people involved in this project, but of all of the projects, I think it's just good to remind people of what that run was and for it to be partnered, you know, with your platform and with HBO. People are gonna think I'm kissing your ass here, but I just think it's the truth. The same way the last dance,

it was just nice little reminders. And when we didn't have games during COVID and we were watching those Bulls series and you and I were going through them, like I'm really glad that I did it because it helped me have like a completely different level of appreciation. And it was the first time I was watching the Bulls

as somebody that just talks about basketball, not just a guy in college, it was the first time I was watching the Bulls as somebody that just talks about basketball, not just a guy in college, it was pissed that Jordan was winning all the time. Like I didn't really appreciate Jordan enough because I certainly wasn't a Bulls fan. And you know, again, I wanted Berkeley to beat him so bad in 93. So to watch this, and I've seen a lot of this stuff, but to see it and then the added depth and how long this is going to go on.

I do think that if you think of the worthy things of the 20th century that are worth reminding people of, 11 titles in 13 fucking years is a pretty good start. Yeah. I mean, that's certainly how we felt working on it. Cause I just think people forget and it was like, ah, there's only eight teams back then. Cause I just think people forget and I was like, ah, there's only teams back then. I remember during the last dance, you and I were doing those pods and we were so stunned how little everybody knew about the Jordan Bulls.

It was one of the first times I really felt old. Remember there was that Rodman episode and everybody was like, Rodman, what was up with that guy? And we were like, what? He's just assuming everybody knew Rodman was this crazy up and down roller coaster ride that they were able to just kind of corral in time for these three straight post seasons. And basically people like my son just had no idea, which of course they wouldn't,

but you just kind of forget because we know all the beats. So that was one of the things we were trying to do with the Celtic series anyway. It's a lot of meat there. What is it like for you personally to be able to produce something like this? That's basically your favorite thing in your life. Be for, for me, I didn't want to fuck it up. I mean, we had so many good people behind it, but I felt like I would have been so mad if somebody else did it and didn't get stuff right.

So for me, it's like, just let's not fuck this up. We got one chance. Let's try to make the best version of this. And, you know, I think what was the one like glass, like glass dance, I think did a great job of here's this piece. Unless you were his teammate, right? Well, that's true. But I mean, the stuff that people got mad about

was pretty honest. And that was all that stuff that was in the books too. It was just a lot of people to know about it, you know? And Isaiah was mad about how he was portrayed in it, which I get, I understand. But that was- Right, what'd you think was gonna happen? Yeah, that was Isaiah's reputation.

That's why he got left off the dream team, you know, like he, he was pretty polarizing guy when he played in the diet. So I think when you're doing these things, you have a responsibility to tell the history, be as fair as possible, weigh the agendas of the different people who are doing interviews for it, because as the years pass, it becomes super easy to tweak stuff however way you want to make yourself look better. These are documents. If you're doing them correctly, they're documents.

I loved Cousy admitting he'd never sniffed or snorted or shot up. He's like, like Bob Cousy sitting there North of 90 going, I never considered myself hot. They show some campaign of him and Frank Gifford. Right, where they were like, supposed to be these hard throbs.

Yeah, Gifford, a looker. And then, he's like, I did drink beers. We did drink a lot of beers because in season, you didn't want to be drinking the hard stuff and have somebody go, why are you drinking that? You're an athlete. He's like, but I never sniffed and I never injected or I never shot it.

And it was just the thing. It's always like the couple of chances I ever had any access stuff when I was still living in Boston. There's just like, it's not even my generation. I don't even know if it's your generation. I think it's our father's generation of like the reverence and the holy fuck. And you know, it meant a lot to me and I certainly appreciate it more now.

Having the Celtics Comcast station, just invite me to be a part of that studio stuff. And I remember how much it meant to my father when he's like, you're sitting on a desk with Tommy Hineson, like you're sitting next to Tommy Hineson, kind of arguing about what just happened in a playoff game. And I'm kind of like, you know, Tommy was a little tough to me at first because he was like, who's this guy? And then he was a big teddy bear and we were great. And he was so awesome to me. And, you know, maybe this doesn't

resonate with anyone outside of the New England area or whatever, but like these dudes were gods to our fathers and, um, at least the accomplishment, you know, it matches it. Like how else would you have ever thought? Like, think about these guys as you have so many of the people in the doc going, you just went into every summer, assuming the Celtics are going to win the world championship, it just, it was expected. I remember it came out that, or maybe I'd mentioned that I was writing my basketball

book in the late 2000s. I think I probably told you this story, but I'll say it again. And I went to a Celtic game during the KG season and some guy came up to me, he was an older guy, he was like my dad's age. And he was like, Hey, it was like at halftime games. Like, Hey, you write in that basketball book. I saw, I saw you writing a basketball book. I'm like, yeah.

And he's like, you better get Russell right. Russell was the best. You don't understand. Russell was the best. I was going to those games. Russell was the best. Just make sure your book covers that. He walked away.

I was like, all right. Like little stuff like that matters. Like this guy was like, just went out of his way to tell me that for 12 seconds. I was like, all right, like little stuff like that matters. Like this guy was like, just went out of his way to tell me that for 12 seconds when he got a beer. Trey Lockerbie I mean, honestly, it sounds like my dad might have grabbed you. Right. Trey Lockerbie Because that's, and look, my father played and you know, he was, he was a big guy and he used to, for these high school all-star teams he was on,

they used to have those barnstorming things for the athletes in the off season. Right. So Will actually told my father, he was like, Hey, cause he was, my father was always the tallest and he was like, Hey, do you, uh, how many points you score, you know, he'd be like, I had 16 or whatever. Yeah. He's like, he goes, when the guards, when the guards go down to court, do you run after him?

And he was like, well, you know, he's like, never stop running. He goes, it's He's like the guards, they always miss the layups. He's like, so when a guy gets out on the fast break, but it's one on one or it's two on two, you always run. He goes, it's just extra points. Like, and we wasn't even thinking of like, it's winning. It was, it's extra points. Right. You know, I don't know if it's a thing where, you know, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our,'t even thinking of like, it's winning. It was, it's extra points.

Right. You know, I don't know if it's a thing where, you know, our, our influences are so Celtics heavy based on what our families grew up rooting for, but the Wilt Russell thing to them is like embarrassing and yet you pull a basketball reference and it would seem embarrassing to think that Russell was better than Will. So, um, you know, I can only defer to kind of like, and I look, I'm not even going to say I can defer to it.

I can read everything Montville's most recent book that really got into that finals and the part where the comeback happens with a Will. Like there's just a generation of people that would look at Will as this guy that you actually wouldn't trust despite the resume. And it's just hard when you're not living it every day to day, and you're only going by other accounts. The crazy thing with Wilt was how many people, players and coaches who either played with them or against them or coached with them or against them, just murdered him.

And I don't know whether that was the era or if he was that frustrating, but people just had no problems talking about how he didn't want the ball in the clutch. He's a pain in the ass. I mean, he did get traded twice during the prime of his career, which is usually a red flag. Anyway, uh, Celtic city, third episode, the all new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron, a huge leap forward, featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, the most advanced tech of any Audi ever, experienced technology that puts you center stage with

a panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers. Perfect for watching the latest sports documentary. The Q6 e-tron, not just the new EV, it's a new way to experience driving. Learn more at AudiUSA.com. Always pay careful attention to the road. Do not drive while distracted. Speaking of books, John Feinstein passed away and he wrote one of the great sports books of all time,

Season on the Brink, which I think Breaks the Game is the best sports book ever. I'll fight that one probably to the death because I don't think anyone's going to top it. Then there's four, five, six books after that that have to be mentioned. And season on the brink would be one of the first ones for me. I remember reading it on an airplane. Um,

and the airplane could have crashed and I would have been like, hold on, hold on. I'm on page 68. Like I just, I don't think you can overstate how little information we had in the eighties. And to have some reporter just go behind the scenes with Bobby Knight. It was this mythical figure and just capture everything, how insane the guy was, how he dealt with the players and the story of that season. And, uh, you know, I just, it was such a memorable experience.

I probably read that book five, six times over the course of my life. So after you read a book like that, you know, like the rest is gravy legacy wise. And during a week like this, he wrote a bunch of books, but that book was an all-timer. I feel like it changed the way people approach sports books after that. And, uh, and it's a hall of famer for me, Rosilla. Yeah. I love the dynamic of that book because you have Bobby Knight who thinks like

fine scenes in on it with him, right? Right. He's like, yeah, you know, this guy's just like, you know, a big fan. Um, but he's young and he's ready to kind of make a name for himself. And then Bobby Knight looks at it as a complete betrayal, but it was like, well, what did you like, however that was accepted or what the understanding was. It was two personalities where it actually made sense that after that book came out, like everybody was pissed, but it put John on the map

Yeah, and I definitely enjoyed like he had a trying to remember I Think that the open inside the robes it ropes at Bethpage black on the 02 us open. I love that one The punch is awesome Good walk spoiled was a good one I love that one. The punch is awesome. Good walk spoiled was a good one. Yeah, I mean, I kind of kept going back to him.

Like he was one of those guys that just was benefiting the doubt for a really long time because of a season on the brink. And it predates Friday Night Lights, right? So it was one of those things where you couldn't believe like you were getting this kind of information because we just never got any of it. We never got any of that kind of stuff. And Knight was really the number one guy as far as who, if you could ever spend

a season with the coach and getting to know him, he'd be the first choice. And I think because John was so much younger, I believe is the way the story goes, that Knight just was like, Oh, whatever. Yeah. Like he can hang around cause he's not established. Yeah. Sports books were hang around because he's not established. Yeah. Sports books were in a weird spot because they used to be like those autobiographies that were written by the player, but they obviously weren't

written by them. And when they made a splash, it was usually like when Sparkle Isle did the Bronx Zoo and was shitting on Reggie Jackson in it and they excerpted it in Sport Magazine, it was like, oh my God, he said that about Reggie. And you know, that's kind of where we were. There was some good biography or autobiographies like Kareem. Kareem had a decent one. Wilt had a really good one.

Bill Russell had two good ones. But for the most part, there wasn't books like this. Halberstam breaks to the game when he spent like a year just immersed in the NBA. It didn't hit like this season on the break did Albersdamm breaks to the game and he spent like a year just immersed in the NBA. It didn't hit like this season on the break did because of the Knight stuff, because Knight got mad was the difference.

The way Knight reacted to the book became part of the story. And Knight was, I don't know, the first in the 70s, 80s, 90s, one of the three or four biggest coaches, period. I don't even know how to describe them now. We don't have coaches like that anymore. Like you told you talked about Dan Hurley before. Nate was like a hundred times bigger than Dan Hurley.

Totally. I mean, you know, Bobby Knight was, was this guy that again, at the beginning of the generational stuff that we were talking about with the Celtics is like, everybody's dad would have wanted their son to play for Bobby Knight, which probably surprises a lot of the younger people who are listening right now. Yeah. Like Bobby Knight's where you would want your son to go play because

he would turn you into a man. And I would argue the more it continued, like Knight was, he was a great coach, but he was also a fucking bully and I hate bullies. And it started to cross a line there, but you know, it's, it's just absurd to think of like how he, how he, it was just so strained that Indiana was basically trying to figure out any way that they could, they could move on from the guy, but it's pretty clear, even though John was with the Washington post. I think the story goes, I'm looking it up as we're kind of on the fly. Cause the book came out in 86, right?

So, and I remember my father never being able to put it down. Feinstein was doing like a story on him, and it was the week that he threw the chair, and Feinstein didn't kill him. So it makes me think that maybe Knight was like, oh, I'll give this guy access. And he's like an ally.

And John was hoping to become like an author and get bigger book deals and everything. And, uh, I think knowing John, not that I had a lot to deal with him. Cause there wasn't, I don't know how much you dealt with them with your overlap at ESPN. Cause it wasn't like he was coming up to Bristol doing a ton of stuff. He would come on to promote a book. I helped him promote a book with Red, actually, the Red Arbac book that he did, which was the worst time promotion of any book ever

because Red came up to the Kowloon and Saugus and John. The Kowloon? Yeah, but it was the day after the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004. So we had planned this all out. Actually, Eddie Anilman planned it out and then he went to Hawaii. So then Eddie wasn't on the air at the local station when the Red Sox broke the curse of eight decades and then they were like, Hey, we got to put you guys

on and we were like, okay, no problem. Then they're like, if it's a sweep, it's going to be the day after. And then people were calling in going like, are you guys the dumbest radio station? And it was like, we, yes, the answer is yes. But it The answer is yes, but it sucked because Red's there in person and you know, it's red, I mean, are you kidding me? Like two years before he died. Right.

And so John is really thankful at the time because we're promoting the book and the book was fun. It was, you know, it was a little different. It was kind of like this lunch thing that he would tell these different stories, but whatever. Yeah. That book, that Red book was written, I think three different times by three different authors, it was like stories about Red. I think three different times by three different authors.

It was like stories about red. I read all of them, enjoyed them. That book came out in 86. Another really interesting thing happened with it. Then they had the Steve Alford, Keith Smart year after the book. And I didn't have like a favorite college basketball team after the BC gambling scandal.

I was kind of a free agent. And that book made me like the Indiana. Just kind of like, oh, I know those guys. And when that run happened, and then they beat DC and Syracuse, and one of the worst no time outs of all time. Another one that's forgotten. Go watch that game on YouTube. Young people listening to this.

Keysmart hits a shot with like three seconds left and Syracuse just completely botches. I don't know what they're trying to do. Anyway, it was so interesting watching that run with the background of this book and how vivid it was and all the characters and offered and everybody else. It's a really great one. It's worth, it's worth, it's not that long. I think it's totally worth rereading. And, uh, and I'm going to read it at some point over the next six weeks, cause I just, everybody talking about it got me fired up. And we talked about what Russell would be like that. Can you imagine taking 1986 Bobby Knight and just dropping him into college sports in 2025 in the NIL era

and social media and people getting triggered. I think he would get fired within five minutes. Um, it's like Bobby has been hired. Bobby Knight has now been fired. I wouldn't say he was the easiest ESPN employee they've ever had either. No, I don't think he was. But you know, there was sort of some grandfather status there. was the easiest ESPN employee they've ever had either. No, I don't think it was. But, you know, there was sort of some grandfather status there.

Uh, and, and they kept putting them on TV and look, I mean, you know, Bobby was. He was like the best for his era, but you're right. Like it was, he couldn't fathom seeing the sport evolve the way that it would, you know, and I think there's, there's something to be said of being like, Hey, when, when everything's even, I'm going to be better than anybody else. I'm going up against as a coach and for a really long time. Um, so you could definitely make that claim with night. There he's a good character and breaks of the game too.

There's some good Bobby night stuff in there. Uh, before we go, give us three minutes. What do we need to know about March Madness? The Johnnies, baby, we're back. It's pretty funny. I was thinking about St. John's. I grew up a big St. John's fan, as a lot of people know. So, two seed going up against Omaha.

You're a big Howard Trish guy, I remember. Yeah, that's the bigger reason. Um, the last time I cared this much, they were the two seed against Gonzaga and they lost in the second round. I think it was a Santangelo went crazy. And at the time I was not in the business. I was just a 24 year old kid, super fired up, you know, just so I was, I cared about this more than I care about the NBA and my buddy and his girlfriend

and my girlfriend were like the Gatsby's and they were like, Hey, we're going to come over and watch the game. And I was like, this is a terrible idea. And I had like a studio and I, you know, you know, when you're, you move into a studio apartment with no actual bedroom and the mattress is still there and you're like, when? That's kind of the place I was at in my life.

And so my buddy kind of knew, and then his girlfriend was foreign. Ugh. And I think the reason I said yes is because the girl I was dating was a teacher. So it would have made sense that next game would have been like maybe the Saturday or whatever. was foreign. And I think the reason I said yes is because the girl I was dating was a teacher. So it would have made sense that next game would have been like maybe the Saturday or whatever. So I was like, okay, I guess like I have to do this because you can't see each other during the

week all that much, which I actually, you know, was great for me. So I was so fucking mad about that game because I love that team so much in 99, the run that they made, the regional final against Ohio state, which by the way, I watched that in Jamaica and I was at a table. I told everybody just to leave me alone for a little bit. And then a busload of Ohio state fans showed up to the grill and cheering on Ohio state is St. John's lost the regional final.

So I had a terrible time that time. So then I was just going to watch it alone. Anyway, Gonzaga beats him St. John's lost the regional finals. So I had a terrible time that time. So then I was like, I'm just going to watch it alone. Anyway, Gonzaga beats him, St. John's loses. And I was so mad, Bill. I was so mad. I left my own apartment and had to walk down the street. I had to go for a walk down church street by myself.

And then the German girl was like, I think in her accent was like, I think you take sports too seriously. And I was like, yeah, but now is not the time. Yeah. I'm surprised that's all he said. I think you take sports too seriously. And I was like, yeah, but now is not the time. Yeah. I'm surprised that's all he said. Well, my buddy thought I was kind of being a loser, but he understood.

You should have come back with something from like some sort of German history thing, just to fuck with her. Yeah, right. Just like you guys decided to defend a peninsula in the ocean. Dumb asses. I remember my friend Ben, who I could talk about this story now because he's not with the person anymore, but the Patriots game when they lost to the Ravens in the

playoffs and like 2011 ranch. When Ray Rice just first play. Yeah. No, it might've been the Jets game. What was the one where Ridley got knocked out? It was the Jets. The rematch after they had killed them? Yeah, it was the Jets game.

He came over half time with his girlfriend, who I don't even think he'd been dating that long, but I was like, you should come over and watch the game with me and my dad. It was like Pats fans. And then he showed up with the girlfriend. The moment I saw her, I knew the Pats were gonna lose. I was just like, the vibe's off in the room. I feel like we're controlling this.

But the Jets just went on a run right after they showed up. So I make fun of them about it now, but I thought it was a bad sign. Yeah, it wasn't in no form at like 24 years old. It's not rational in any way. Right, there's no way that I'd be like, one, my apartment was disgusting. Yeah.

But again, we're all young, right? So we're young enough to think it would still be normal. And meanwhile, his girlfriend, my girlfriend kind of knew, but she didn't really love that version of me. But again, she was actually kind of a sweetheart and she gave me a lot of rope. And looking back, it was like, man, I was such a dick. But his girlfriend was annoying the shit out of me because she would be like, do

you have any more Chardonnay? You know, and I'm like, are you fucking sound like this guy's going to miss a three? Yeah, right. Like, and there's like one couch. There's not a lot of room again. It's a studio. So I don't even know if it was 200 square feet. And I'm sitting there and I cared about the outcome of that game, probably as much as

like maybe the Suns, Bulls in 93. You know, some of those A's series with the Sox, you kind of knew they weren't going to get it done. So it wasn't like this massive let down. The Dave Stewart era? Dave Stewart. Yeah. But maybe, maybe the comeback against the angels in 86, I'm just trying to think of the outcomes

of games that I cared about that much because it was the very end of my run of not being in the business and being desensitized to it a little bit. But it was the worst possible setup. And then I was convinced the only reason why St. John's was losing is because I allowed this to happen. So that's on me, really. So now the Johnnys are back. So that's on me really. So now the Johnny's are back. Nephew Kyle is, is all into, I don't think you guys are going to be closer

than right now. You know, can I say one St. Johnny's thing? Cause I've been, I, and we've probably even talked about this. I've never understood why NBA teams don't add presses if they have depth. Like, I feel like on the side of OKC was just like, hey, with our seven through 12 guys, let's just have a press that we can do for three minutes

and the team will never know when it's coming. It would be one of the great weapons we could have in basketball, especially against certain teams that don't necessarily have a backup. Didn't Patino try that though? Patino tried it as like an actual regular season, we're gonna do this for long stretches. I'm just saying a little three minute thing like, Oh, that Austin Reeves is going to be the point guard right now. Let's press this guy for three minutes with the press that we've been working on.

I just think there's something there that would work if you had the athletes, but I like that when they do it in college, because it just seems like it, it just seems so terrifying. Everybody loves Florida. They're on it now that Clayton junior kid, the kid that was at the college, he's a great guy. He's a great guy. in college because it just seems like it just seems so terrifying. Everybody loves Florida. They're on it now that Clayton junior kid, the kid that was at Iona that apparently Patino like was trying to get to go to St. John's, um, he was damn near perfect in the Alabama win.

He was really good again today. He's a real point guard. You know, I don't even know if he's on the draft list or whatever. And then they've got two huge guys that can go to, they can play defense. They can throw a lot of size at you. And, um, you know, they kind of ran away from Tennessee, Tennessee had a lot of foul trouble today. Uh, I, I look, I think St.

John's has seven to eight guys where you all feel like they bring something to the table to knock on them as they're not going to be able to shoot it enough to win six games, um, which the table to knock on them as they're not going to be able to shoot it enough to win six games. Um, which 29 to one on Fandl. So it was Florida's plus three 90. Now there's second Duke's the favorite plus three 20. Duke's the favorite because it's apparently flag is coming back. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't really look, I started watching the last, I've been watching St. John's now pretty regularly, but you know, I watched all the conference tournament stuff, but I could barely get through that. I don't even try. I don't even try to fake it during the championship weekend anymore. I'm just like, Oh, I'll, I'll jump in.

Then the tournament starts. I've lost. That's another thing I've just given up as I've gotten older. Cause I'd choose to watch, uh, okay. Seeing Detroit for some reason, game, game, but I was excited. Okay. So he's already locked up a one seat and for some reason I'm picking that over

like a college hoops game. Yeah. I don't, I don't really have anything, anybody that's been watching all season long, like I'm not going to offer them anything, but I did enjoy watching this week. I enjoyed watching. What's that? You're in ong. Oh yeah.

No, it's, I mean, it just sucks you got hurt, but watching, I think it was the last regular season North Carolina game. And I watched the BC game where it looked like everybody on BC wanted to punch him in the face, which was a good sign because Flagg responded well to it. Yeah, but it's not like I'm, I'm not your guy to ask anything of. I know what the Johnny's look like. That's about it. Uh, Rossello, you're doing two pods this week. It's not like I'm, I'm not your guy to ask anything of. I know what the Johnny's look like. It's about it.

Uh, we're still out. You're doing two pods this week. We'll be back on this pod next week. Um, we were going to do a gimmick for today, but then we farted around with all this other stuff, which is my fault. So we'll do the gimmick next week that I was really excited about, but I thought would have been really good. Somehow we still killed two hours, uh, without doing the giant gimmick that I thought we were been really good. Somehow we still killed two hours, uh, without doing the giant gimmick that I thought we were going to do.

Um, we'll back that pack next week. And then, uh, thanks to Gahau and Kyle and Ceruti as well for producing new rewatchables coming Monday night. We did days of thunder, Rossella. Cruz Kidman. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, maybe sort of. Yes.

Oh, no, no, I was, I mean, who wasn't in on that? How could you even call yourself an American back then and not be excited about it? It's really good. We're a little critical of Cruz. Not gonna say he's on autopilot in it, but he's done better. It's still great. I mean, he still puts up 25, seven, and eight, but you know, it's not like you wanna be telling your grandkids about Coltrickle, the Cruz. Does the wheelchair race count?

Does the wheelchair race count? Does the wheelchair race count? Does the wheelchair race count? Does the wheelchair race count? I mean, he's still, he still puts up 25, seven and eight, but you know, it's not like you want to be telling your grandkids about cold trickle. The cruise does the wheelchair race scene not hit this hard? No, it's harder. It's harder, harder. Yeah, it's great. We broke it down. Anyway, that's tomorrow.

And then our prestige TV, the white lotus episode five, which is a capital B banger, which you got to watch tonight. Capital B pulsating in bullet banger. I'm watching it. I am on it. I needed something after the Ruby Franke documentary, which I would suggest maybe not watching. Adolescence on Netflix is good too.

Check that out. Anyway, Rossello, good to see you. See you. I'm on the wayside, on the brink of so much leverage. I'm saying I don't have. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit md gamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York.