The Bill Simmons Podcast - Phoenix Takes Charge, Brady’s TV Gig, and a Celts-Bucks Classic With Jonathan Tjarks, Bryan Curtis and Chris Mannix

Episode Date: May 11, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Jonathan Tjarks to discuss the Mavericks' Game 5 loss to the Suns, the Heat's runaway win over the 76ers, Warriors-Grizzlies, and more (2:42). Then, Bill talks with SI's Chris Mannix about the Bucks-Celtics series, why Boston's Game 4 win was the most important of the Tatum/Brown era, some Lakers dysfunction, and Canelo Alvarez's loss to Dmitry Bivol (37:06). Finally, Bill talks with Bryan Curtis about the news that Tom Brady will be joining the Fox NFL broadcast crew when he retires from the NFL (1:10:18). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jonathan Tjarks, Chris Mannix, and Bryan Curtis Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, we're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on this podcast. Check out the Mismatch podcast and the Ringer NBA show because on Monday, Wednesday, Friday nights, we always have something on one of those feeds coming off the games. Check out Ryan Rossello the next morning as well on Tuesdays and Thursdays. The NBA playoffs on the Ringer Podcast Network. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too.

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Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did Beverly Hills Cop 2. I was also on the Prestige TV podcast, breaking down the season finale of Winning Time, an incredibly flawed show, an incredibly flawed show that I really enjoyed, even though it was an incredibly flawed show and they just made shit up. They just openly made shit up. The finals MVP got taken from Kareem and given to Magic. I mean, crazy shit.

I still enjoyed it. Also, FanDuel, as you know, are a big part of this whole podcast family. They're going to do a boost for me for the Celtics game. Game five, I think it's going to be the Celtics to win and Jason Tatum to have 25 plus points, and they're going to boost it for us. So if you go to the FanDuel sports book, you will see that on there at some point during Wednesday. I am in Boston right now. It is late night, right after the Phoenix Dallas game. We're going to talk to Jonathan Charks about that in a second. What's cool is I did the other part of this podcast in LA. This is the first time I ever did this. Tape most of the podcast in LA,

flew to Boston and watched the Phoenix Dallas game. And then there you go. Also watched the terrible Philly Miami game on JetBlue, watched the equally horrible Bruins Hurricanes game on JetBlue and a little Red Sox Braves. It was so much better on paper than how it turned out, but I still had a good time. I enjoy JetBlue. I like stacking my flight so that I'm going with games. And I'm super pumped to go to Game 5 Celtics Bucks. Talking about that with Chris Mannix much later in the podcast. What's going on in that series. And then the only other thing we have, Brian Curtis came on because Tom Brady signed a contract to announce football games on Fox for $100 bajillion. And we're going to discuss that,

what his reasons were, why Fox is doing it. Is Tom Brady even going to be good at announcing football? That's all next. Coming up right now, Jonathan Charks. First, our good friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 1222 East Coast time. I'm on the East Coast.

What a day. Jonathan Sharks is here, our guy. I was so the East Coast. What a day. Jonathan Sharks is here. Our guy. I was so excited for this podcast, Sharks. I was thinking between Philly, Miami. What were we getting from Harden? Was this the start of something? Could they flip that series?

Were they going to have a moment? And then Dallas Phoenix. Was this going to be like a Luca? Was this going to be like a LeBron against the Pistons 2007 type moment? Were they going to shoot the lights out again? Instead, both games kind of sucked. I'm really disappointed. I thought one of them was going to come through. You picked a good day to fly across the country, it seems like. I think I really did. Turns out home court matters. That's one of our lessons.

It's usually good to go with the home court teams. But with the Dallas thing, let's start there because that was more interesting for at least a half. And then Phoenix blew it up in the third quarter. What did you see Phoenix doing? What were the adjustments or did Dallas just stop making threes? I mean, it was a couple things. The biggest, Phoenix really said, we're going to make Luke and Brunson. I believe they finished with three

assists total. I think Luke had two, which is by far the fewest assists of his career in the playoffs. And it was like, the rest of the Mavs guys, they need their shots created for them. They can't do anything one-on-one. Phoenix really seems like bought into, we're going to make

those two the Mavs two ballrooms do everything. They made a couple good adjustments. They changed their rotation. They took out campaign. They're much bigger on the perimeter. That was pretty big too. And the other thing is Aiden just played a lot better.

Bridges played a lot better. We're talking about home court. Those were the guys, it was the role players really flipped the series. When Bridges and Aiton are playing well, the Mavs really have no chance. Those guys were just too good for him tonight. Yeah, Aiton was 9 for 13 in 22 minutes. Biambo came in. He was big too.

He was plus 18. Not that plus minus is everything, but he was good. Yeah, I thought Phoenix was going to try this game plan. I thought it was going to be one of those. A little like what Boston did with Giannis last night, where basically you're going to have to do everything. We want to take away at least a little bit. Your role, guys.

You can knock yourself out trying to score as much as you want, but we're not going to give away the other stuff. What's weird is Luca, he only took 23 shots, seven times to the line. He had that aura to him in the first quarter where I really was like, oh my God, they're going to win the series. I've changed my mind. I think I flip flopped on this series more than any series in five games in my life. Because there was a moment in the first quarter I was like, oh my God, we could have Celtics maps. What's going to happen to me in charts? What are we going to do? How are we going to work through this? But, uh, but yeah, and all of a sudden Phoenix kind of withstood it. I guess if, if you're looking at it from Dallas perspective, like you didn't play well,

bulk was over five. Um, Dinwiddie, who is just kind of MIA in this whole series, he was over three. Cleaver was 0 for 3. Kleber was 1 for 5. So you could just say, we didn't play, we'll write it off. We'll get him back at Dallas, and then we'll make it a one-game winner-take-all. I guess would be the thing. We played really well twice. Phoenix was 65 and 17.

Unlikely we were going to beat them three times in a row. But at least we laid the groundwork. We'll get to go back home. We'll get this right. What else would you say if you were Dallas? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the biggest. This whole series has kind of felt like the Mavs have been

biking uphill. And it's like there's a talent difference here. And their margin of error is really small. And if it starts to go south on you, it's like you're going up this hill, you're just dying. And there's just not much. When it gets to Phoenix at 10, Phoenix at 12, it just doesn't feel like they have any juice

to get back in the series. And I think ultimately, Dallas is always going to have to win their home games and have Lucas steal one. And you did see that in the first couple of minutes. Let me get one thing off my chest. As I've been watching the series, watching the whole Mavs playoff run, I really am

hating the step-back three shot. The more I watch it, the less I like it. I was telling Kyle this the other day. It's a loser shot, honestly, like the step-back three. You're bailing out the defense. You're not getting anybody else involved. Even if you make it, the ball's not moving at all. It's like

when you take that shot, it's just like, what are you even doing? Go to the rim. When Lucas starts taking threes like that, you, the ball's not moving at all. It's like, when you take that shot, it's just like, what are you even doing? Go to the rim. Like when Lucas starts taking threes like that, you just know it's not going to end well. It's funny. I'm in the same boat with Tatum.

Now he made a big one in game four against the Bucs, but at the same time, I just always like when he's going forward. It's like when you're going backwards. Yeah. If I'm the defense, I'm happy with it. And what do you think the percentage is?

Has anyone done like the full-fledged study on step back threes? What is it, like 30%? Well, Luka was like two for 20 on threes the last two games. There's no way. The way he plays especially too, you know his legs are shot.

It's like taking a step back three, it's saying, I didn't beat my man. The guy's still right in my face. So I'm literally taking a step further back. I mean, it looks great when it goes in, but it's just hard to be a consistent part of your diet when you're trying to win a championship. That's the problem is it looks great when it goes in. I like the stuff when they were kind of hunting Chris with Luca and trying to post up Luca on him and just trying to take advantage of that. They've been trying to wear down Paul

this whole series. Jason Kidd made no secret. That was one of the strategies. It is interesting. He wasn't like, I don't know, super impactful tonight. It was three for eight, seven points, 10 assists. But the guy from those first couple of New Orleans games that was just like, wow, is this the best he's ever played in his whole career?

He seems like he's seemed a little more closer to a guy in his late to mid-30s in his last couple games. He was fine today. He wasn't bad, but he wasn't like, oh my God, this is one of the 10 best players in the league. On the other hand, Booker was fantastic. Yeah, I mean, that's the guy the Mavs have no answer for either. Like when Booker starts to get going

and you're kind of like, for the Mavs, Paul, you're not scared of at all. Booker's the guy that's like, they have no answer for either. Like when Booker starts to get going and you're kind of like, as for the Mavs, Paul, you're not scared of at all. Booker's the guy that's like, they have no answer for Booker. And then when Bridges and Aiden get going, it's like no answers

for them either. Paul's one's like, you're just happy if he's doing his thing. Like that's the better role for him now anyways. The line on this game was Suns by seven,

which I thought was intriguing because the Miami line was only Miami minus two and a half. I think there was a real feeling out there that that series might be flipping. And as it turned out, both of them were blowouts. It's just really hard to bet against Luka. That's the thing. If you had a lot of money on the Suns tonight, if you're rooting for the Suns and it's 16-10 Mavs and Luka's winking at people in the front row,

you're just going, oh no. Oh God. What you said about the talent difference, you definitely feel it when they're down. You don't feel it when they're home, but you feel it when they fall behind by 8-10 and then all of a sudden

it just seems... It's a little like what has happened in Milwaukee. If you take out Giannis and all of a sudden, it's like Pat Connaughton trying to beat people off the dribble and things like that. Yeah, it's the level of versatility in the role players. When I was talking about the bridges, when you see them get to the lane, pull an eight-footer or make a pass off a drive,

it's like none of the Mavs role players can do that. They're all in such little specialized compartments. And Milwaukee's the same kind of thing. These guys can only do one or two things. I talked about it on the telecast. When Bullock or Maxie or Finney-Smith puts the ball on the ground, you're not sure what's going to happen.

It doesn't happen very often. So it's like, yeah, everything has to be going so well, whereas Phoenix, Bridges especially, is a versatile player with multi, with a lot of dimensions to his game.

And even Aiden, like. Yeah, true. The, the thing with, when I think about this stuff with the role guys,

that was why I was thinking that 2018 Rockets team was a little similar to the 2022 Mavs, where it was like, that that what the planet is Luka or Harden in 2018. And then you have like the second kind of playmaker guy who on that Rockets team was Chris Paul and on this team is Brunson. And then all these guys who basically have to feed off the planets, right? And they kind of can't sustain anything. Eric Gordon could create a little bit

on that Rockets team, or more than a little bit. And I think Dinwiddie was supposed to be that guy for the Mavericks. But I don't know what happened. What happened to regular season Dinwiddie? Is he just gone? Yeah, he's been tough pretty much the whole playoffs.

He's really not. I mean, obviously it is hard with how much Luka dribbles sometimes for other ball handlers. He's really not... I mean, obviously it is hard with how much Luka dribbles sometimes for other ball handlers, but he's just not been good. And it's funny you mentioned the Rockets because I was thinking about that when we were talking about turning off the role players. And in these high-level

series, that's often the adjustment. I remember with the Warriors and the Rockets, the Warriors were like, these guys can't beat us. If we stay on our men, it's just Harden and Paul. We're going to win that matchup. We have more stars than them. We're just not going to let... You don't want to let the top players

get the points and the assists. If you can turn off one of the two, it's a huge advantage in a series like this, for sure. Our friend Haral Bob had a thing about the possession length that Phoenix is basically taking 19 seconds for a make,

they're really like there's a deliberateness to them. A miss was 14.1 seconds. Dallas, a make was 15.8 seconds and a miss was 11.5 seconds for them. They're trying to play a little bit faster.

You saw it too in the Dallas games. When Phoenix is missing shots, the Mavs can run and get an open three really fast early in the clock. And those are shots that Phoenix is making shots. Dallas can't get those shots in transition. It's harder for the role guys. So, Dallas,

do you have them below Milwaukee? If you're just talking about we're just ranking all these teams, right? I think the Boston- Milwaukee, Phoenix, I think would be the three. And then Golden State is kind of right there. I think Dallas, would you have them below Golden State right now?

Yeah, I mean, below Milwaukee for sure. Milwaukee's got the best player, you know, in the game. And below Milwaukee. So you'd have them probably five. Would you have them above Memphis right now? Probably the same. Well, I guess without Ja, obviously, I tend to change these things. You'd have them probably five. Would you have them above Memphis right now? No jaw. Well, I guess without jaw, obviously, that kind of changes things.

I mean, Dallas for sure, I would say, has the least overall talent of any of these teams left. They've got one exceptional player and a bunch of guys in roles. I don't think it's very comparable at talent level compared to any of the other teams. Well, what happens in game six? I have a feeling they win. It feels like a seven-gamer to me.

I mean, I think they've got a chance for sure. The way the crowd gets into it and then Brunson's playing better and better and I think there's a couple more adjustments the Mavs can make. Number one, Dwight Powell's got to go. They've been playing him for like eight, nine minutes and they're getting absolutely killed in those minutes.

Let me find the number for you. I was laughing about this. Oh, it's like in the minus 30 range, something? Yeah, and it's like minus again today. In like 30 minutes. It's like every game they're getting absolutely killed in those first eight minutes. And like those minutes, that's an easy adjustment.

It's game six. He probably shouldn't be playing at all. Well, isn't part of that just trying to figure out how much you can do with Kleber? Like those minutes, that's an easy adjustment. It's game six. He probably shouldn't be playing at all. And I think- Well, isn't part of that just trying to figure out how much you can do with Kleber? Keeping him on the court with the foul trouble and all that stuff. Like what's the max for him?

Like somewhere between 30 and 33? Probably, yeah. You're trying to limit Maxie's minutes, but it's like, all right, it's game six, do or die. Just roll with ice on it. And it's like, okay, we played Powell as long as we can. He's got to go. And I think Dallas,

we're really digging deep right now. But they're going to need probably Frank Milakina to actually play well. They just need one extra card. Wow. I'm digging deep right now. What a moment for our Knicks fan friends.

Just to hear that Frankie Nicotine might have a chance to impact this series. The crazy thing, KOC has kept all his stock. He's still only 23, which I think is bonkers. I feel like he's like 30. He's 23.

I think it was the same draft the year before, Luke. He's had some moments in the regular season. I always kind of was hoping he could be like the Alex Caruso, like that kind of player next to Luka. And he's like, purely on theory, he theoretically

gives you that versatility we're talking about where like, okay, he can defend, maybe shoot, maybe he can dribble a little bit. You need some more juice. You need some more juice. You need a guard to give you extra juice. I'd love to see more Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie lineups go even smaller.

And then you hope Aiden falls back to earth on the road. I mean, I think game six at home is definitely a very winnable game, for sure. You know, the Frank Caruso thing felt like completely far-fetched. Caruso really didn't, you know't start to have an impact in the league until he was 25. That was when he started to get minutes to the Lakers.

Frank's 23. It's a lottery pick, yeah. Yeah, and he clearly is, at least he has one identifiable skill that something got to work with. I think long-term, I kept thinking about Porzingis tonight, having him out here in the,

in this series, how goofy that would be just to have a, with just, I think in general, the Boston Milwaukee series and this Phoenix Dallas series, there's such a high level of play by play strategy that I'm just not used to in a round two. Like you'll see it in the finals and sometimes you'll see a conference finals,

but like Boston, Milwaukee, and we talk about it in detail later with Chris Mannix, but the level of everything in that series, I was just kind of unprepared for. It's one of the better playoff series the Celtics have been in in the last, I would say 35 years where it's swinging. It's almost like a boxing match. It's like, well, we won round three. Oh my God, they're killing us

in round four. Oh, we're back in round five. And it's just really cool. I think Coach Budd has done an amazing job because without Middleton, I didn't think this series was going to be as close as it was. So I don't know. Do you agree with me on the strategy thing or am I, or am I overreacting? I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, all these playoff series,

everything is, every possession matters. I will say like, I thought that's been a really fun series to watch Buck Celtics. It's kind of felt like in the Avengers movie. I don't know if you watch those where, where Thanos is fighting like all the Avengers and they like try to trap them.

There's like five Avengers holding him. The dance is like getting his arm. And that's the try to trap him. There's five Avengers holding him, and Thanos is getting his arm. And that's Giannis in the series. He's like, I'm the best player in the world. I'm the heavyweight champ. I can maybe beat you guys one on five. And it's so close, he's almost able to do it. It's been so much fun to watch.

And as much as I love Luka, he just can't do that like Giannis can. And I don't know what's going to happen in that series, but man, it has been really fun to watch. Yeah. Let's take a quick break, it has been really fun to watch. Yeah. Let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about the other series. This episode is brought to you by Movember.

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some people in my life were theorizing that maybe not the worst thing in the world that Kyle Lowry wasn't playing. They certainly didn't seem like they missed him tonight. I guess healthy Kyle Lowry they missed, but if he's going to be a little compromised like he's been in this series, maybe it's not as big of a loss as maybe it seems on paper. Oh my God, Kyle Lowry scratched for a game five. Well, he was limping around. So I don't know.

Is it a giant loss? I don't know. But what did you see from their game plan today? Or was it more about the Sixers just being in a fog? I would say it is really nice to be like, oh, at the end of my bench, there's Victor Oladipo, former All-Star. Let's just put him in the rotation.

We're talking about Frank Nolikina here. They're pulling off all-stars in the middle of their prime. I mean, I think the biggest thing for me in this series, and the reason I never believed in Philly at all, is there's just no wing defenders

on the Sixers roster. Once they lost Simmons, it's just Jimmy Butler can get whatever he wants. At one point, I think in the last game, Embiid was guarding Butler. It's like, that's not a good sign.

That's your best option. And for me, I just feel like wing defense is everything in the end. That's just like a number one prerequisite. You just got to have at least probably two good wing defenders. And Philly, they've got 50-year-old Danny Green, Thibault, who just can't make a shot anymore,

can't even play him. They're asking Tobias Harris to guard Jimmy Butler. I always just thought this is not sustainable. And I feel like that, to me, ultimately, was going to get Philly in this series, was just the lack of wing defense. Yeah, you think of where they were like a year ago on paper, where they had Simmons,

who's one of the most impactful wing defenders of the last five years. And then Tybalt, who got some some all defense buzz heading into the award season this year, because you know, when, when he was out there, he was really, really elite, but now his offense, and I don't know if the vaccination stuff, if that affected it at all or made, made doc lose confidence in him. But now it's like, he's like a shell of himself. I don't, I don't know.

He's like an afterthought in the series. It's bizarre because you would think like that's the guy they would just go, hey, can you stop Jimmy Butler for us

or Heroes Hot tonight? Can you take him out? But they're not even like looking his way really. Yeah, it's just tough with the way Miami plays and how much they send guys that Embiid.

You have to have shooters out there and then he can't do it. He loses, especially the young players you see, like he loses confidence and that's like he bring up Frank

or anything, but like a young player hasn't played a lot. Like you can see Frank in this Mavs series, like it just takes you a while to get back into it, get to the flow of the game,

get comfortable with yourself. If you're just being thrown out there and you don't believe in your shot in a playoff series, you're just, you're dying on the vine out there. Yeah, the TNT crew, I mean, Embiid had a really weird game today.

He seemed, I thought he got hit in the face in the first half and it really looked like he was in real pain. And after that, he, it didn't seem like he was ever quite the same. And then Barkley at halftime was talking about, he thought Embiid was really bummed out about the MVP thing and that was affecting him, which is a theory that I think, I don't think he's the only one who thinks that. I don't understand why that would have affected the Embiid thing. To me, he looked like a guy that had played three games in five nights, carried huge burden in game three, huge burden in game four. And

Miami's been pretty physical with them. And he just seemed worn out from the first quarter to me. What did you see? I mean, I guess it's one of those things, easier to talk about it, right? Something to say. Like, I think the Sixers are kind of in the same boat the Mavs are in, where it's like, you're just trying to get your home court, have your

superstar steal one at one of these road games. And just didn't have it tonight. You're right. Probably for the best, this game was out of hand fast. I was telling you the Mavs should bench their guys earlier. These series have been going... I believe they're on the same schedule. They've been playing every

other night, all five games, and game six on Thursday. There's been no break at all in these series. These teams were shorthanded, don't have very big benches. I think for the best for both the Mavs and the Sixers

to rest their guys, you're always going to need one game to steal it. Just kill it. Kill it fast. That's what they had to do. What do you make of Miami? I don't know if we've

talked about them because I think there's a prevailing feeling, including in the room I'm sitting in right now where I'm by myself, that the winner of Milwaukee-Boston is going to be the final team. And yet, Miami will have home court advantage in the next series. Miami is healthy except for Kyle Lowry.

Miami has beaten Boston in a playoff series. They've beaten Milwaukee, I think, in a playoff series. They've beaten Milwaukee, I think, in a playoff series. But I think there's possible nobody believes in us with them if they get through this because I think just the feeling is this Boston-Milwaukee, both those teams are so good. And just watching how brilliant this series has been and then that Sixers-Miami series,

I think is, through five games, one of the worst series that we've had in a round two. Like no unforgettable moments except for Harden just randomly getting hot. I was going to say, it was like, they're just like, hey, James Harden had a good game.

This is incredible. That was like the highlight of the game. Yes. Oh my God. And then it was two days of his heart and back and then you watch today and it's like, no, not back.

But I think that's what, I think that's what happens with older players though where they can still reach back and have a night, you know, and look like themselves.

But the difference between that and like somebody like Giannis is Giannis can do that every night. And even when Giannis is bad, he can still impact the game nine ways. When Giannis is bad, he can still impact the game nine ways. When Harden's bad, he's

just bad now. And he was not good today. Yeah, I mean, I definitely don't see Boston as significantly better than Miami. I mean, to me, it's like Milwaukee's in its own category because they've got Giannis. Because of Giannis. And he's just at a whole different level than anyone else

in the league right now. That to me is the most fun part of it to watch. I have to figure out which series I want to focus on. Obviously, I'm going to watch the Mavs, but then it's like you've got to watch the champ. Giannis, they have the weight champ right now.

He by himself can win a series in a way nobody else can. He's gotten to a level very, very few players ever get to. And it's just so much fun to watch. And a guy like that, you're like thinking his team is the favorite. And especially if Middleton comes back in the next round, I think like for sure you put Milwaukee above everybody else. But right now they're weak and that's always the risk of playing too far ahead. Guys get hurt.

And then you talked about the Miami-Milwaukee matchup. I think it didn't get talked about enough last year was that in the rematch in that first round series, Giannis just guarded Jimmy Butler and just took him out of the series. He went from getting like 25 a game

in the bubble series to like 10. And it was like an absolute dominant 4-0 sweep. It happened so fast, people didn't really, I don't think, really got enough attention for what a dominant performance it was.

But that was huge. And then, so if you're game planning it out going forward, okay, the team with the best player, if it's Miami-Milwaukee, Milwaukee has the best player. If it's Miami-Boston, then it's more of an open matchup. It's like Butler versus Tatum. That can go either way. It's more even.

Butler versus Giannis is the white class. It's totally different. True. As you were talking, you were making me think. I used to feel this way about LeBron for a long time. This doesn't happen every year, but sometimes it happens when a guy is clearly the best player in the league. And the MVP piece doesn't matter because that's a regular season award. It doesn't really reflect

who the actual best player in the league is. But really the best player is the guy, it's like wrestling, where if you beat that guy, if you can pin him, that's the hardest thing to do. You know, like when Andre the Giant was the best wrestler in WWF for eight years, it didn't matter. They didn't have the belt. He was still the hardest match. And I think with LeBron, really from, I would say, 2012 when they won the title all the way through the bubble season, beating a LeBron team was the number one thing you could do. Like if you did that, you felt like you could do anything. And now LeBron, the Lakers are a mess

and he's going to be in his 19th year. I think that ship sailed. Giannis is the guy now for that. Where the Celtics get by Giannis, that's the guy who's like, wow, we beat Giannis in a series. We could do anything. It's all gotten off from there.

Yeah, it's like this is, if. Yeah. It's like, this is, if we can do that anyway, you know, bring on anyone at this point, but he's gotten to that point and it's a really hard point to get to for, for an NBA star. Yeah. And I would date like the LeBron era.

I would date game five against the Pistons in 07 to that game one against the Warriors in 2018. That like 11 year run where I think pretty... And every time he did lose, it was like either LeBron's going to win a title or he's going to go down swinging. He's going to be getting 40 points every game. And the times where he didn't do that,

it was like the Mavs series and that Celtics series. And everyone's like, what the heck's going on? LeBron should be coming. Yeah. It was like, what the hell? What happened to him?

And it's like when you're at that level, you're not expected to win the title every year, but you're expected, if you're going to go down, you're going down putting up 40, 20, and 10. And every night is an absolute battle. And you can go one. You're so good, you can go one on five if you have to. And that's the level Giannis has reached now.

And it is, that's like the most fun to me is to watch that stuff. It's like to watch one guy have that much control of a game against an elite opponent well and the way you just laid that out that's what was so disappointing when lebron kind of fell apart in those last two games in 2010 against the celtics because he had been so consistently great it was just absolutely shocking that he was bad and that he was in his own head. And it was like, wait, what? And the same thing with the 2011 finals.

It's like, my God, what happened to this guy? This is our best guy. And just think like if Giannis in game five tomorrow night in Boston, if he just had an absolutely horrible game and was like four for 20 from the free throw line, and we'd be like, oh my God, Giannis. It's like Drago. Right. It's like Drago. The Russian

is cut. Oh my God. But I just don't think I think that guy is so relentless. I don't think he has a bad game in him at this point. Even when he's bad, he's still like completely impactful. Like that game too for sure it's i mean like i've got to give a shout out to uh you know our girl maroon fader

read that biography she wrote last year yannis and it's like yeah how he had to learn to just be so aggressive all the time and like just like yeah that was like i ended up being the most important story of the year like yannis can just go deep he's always coming at you and you've got to respect it's like i think he's like Kawhi in that sense where he doesn't take things personally. Like he's just coming full speed at you all the time.

If you dunk on him you dunk on him. Like he's just playing basketball. He's not getting caught up in any of the nonsense. And that's the stuff like as a Mavs fan with Luka you just hope

that's something you hope comes in time is just that level of maturity. We were joking in the Dallas games. Like, when there's a dead ball, you don't got to look for Luka. You know exactly where he is.

He's yelling at a referee. Just yelling at guys. Honestly, it's amazing. He's in just every game when he talks to his refs. It's just like, you just got to let it go, man. Just play ball. Yeah, the Celtics have a little bit of that problem, too. Before we go, let's talk about Golden State Memphis really fast. So, Ja looks like he's done. I don't know when he bruised his knee. It didn't seem like it was from the Jordan pool play, but I felt like Golden State was just a tiny, just, Memphis had the year they were going to have, right? They made round two. Perfect. Russell and I talked about it Sunday night. For a young team, this

played out perfectly. You learn. You taste your own blood a little bit. Now you get to move on. Now they probably have a three-for-one trade they're going to make. Next year will be the year for them. At the same time, I still don't love what I'm seeing from Golden State.

The clay thing, I almost tweeted this last night and then I like Clay. I didn't want to make fun of Clay, but if Westbrook had had the game Clay had yesterday, he would have been getting annihilated. If that was a Laker playoff game and Westbrook was 6-20 and losing his guy

in defense and stuff, we would have been like, oh my god, Russ, Jesus. Hashtag Rush sucks. But Clay is getting, you know, because he basically missed three years. People really like him. I do feel like he's getting a cushion with some of this stuff.

I think he's been really erratic during these playoffs, but at the same time, there's this weird dynamic where it's because he's Klay, because they've won with him. You give somebody like that such a long leash but athletically sometimes it just doesn't look like he can hold up to the speed of the game what do you see with that yes like like they've been bleeding i mean it's not being talked about a lot because they're seven and one in the playoffs but i think that has

been so there's just one play that sticks to my mind from the Nuggets series. It's not really important, but at one point, so Bones high on the Nuggets rookie. He gets out on a break and Klay's behind to guard him. He tries to cross up Klay and he can't get around him.

And then normally it's like, okay, Klay's dead, run the offense, get in the half court. Then you see Bones like, no, I'm taking this guy right now. He cannot stay in front of me. And he dribbles like in a circle for 12 seconds to get a layup.

I remember watching that thinking that's it right there. Like, yeah, Clay doesn't. Clay's not the stopper. He was. And that's a huge when you try to like compare this version of the Warriors to the 20, the OG version, Clay being a bad defender or not being able to guard point guard changes everything. Because now they have like two weak defenders. Now you have Jordan Poole,

you have three weak perimeter defenders. Now you've got nobody playing perimeter defense really at all. Like you're asking Wiggins to guard Ja in game two. Like when Ja went off, it's Wiggins is the only way to even do it. And I think that makes Golden State so much more vulnerable

than they were in the past. Yeah. And you think like with Phoenix, they much more vulnerable than they were in the past. Yeah. And you think like with Phoenix, they'll have Paul and Booker out there. They might even go small and put, you know, a third guard out there to mess with them. But they're just going to be, I think, hunting clay and pool the entire game. Just trying to get those guys guarding both Paul or Booker and try to figure out over and over again how they can exploit that. The other thing with the Warriors,

Russell and I talked about this Sunday, but just, Draymond just not, doesn't shoot anymore. Which I think a smart team will be able to use against them because they'll just play a million feet off him.

They're going to play him to never try to go to the basket or do any of that stuff. So yeah, there's signs of concern. I know they were bummed out that they lost Peyton, but I also think like that shouldn't swing your title hopes if you lost your seventh guy. And at this point, everybody's had somebody that is either the Celtics. I don't know if Robert Williams is playing on Wednesday night. I don't know what we're getting out of him. Everybody's got something at this point. The Clay thing's a much bigger issue, I think.

Sometimes he'll be good. Like he might, in game five, he might go, you know, 10 for 14. And it'll be like, oh my God, Clay. He still has the quick release. But he might be moving closer to that spot shooter kind of guy versus like the well-rounded guy that he was. He was such a good defender, you know? That's the thing. Like the, uh,

prime clay is, you know, elite, elite two-way player. And it's funny. Not like, not like Kawhi level, but like,

I would say one level below those guys. Like he would guard everybody from any size. Basically. That was always a difference. Like when they would play the blazers or the, or the rockets, it'd be like, okay,

clay's in a guard, hardened clay's in a guard, Dane for 40 minutes Rockets. It'd be like, okay, Klay's going to guard Harden. Klay's going to guard Dane for 40 minutes. Make those guys work. It's just funny you mentioned Gary Payton too. It's not a good sign when your seventh man goes down and everyone's like, that's our best perimeter defender. Hopefully one of the guys who plays

a lot of minutes is a good perimeter defender as well. He plays less than Derek White. If you're the Suns in this next series, or if you're the Mavs, they advance. You're like, my guy's going to cook. If you have Devin Booker or Luka, you look at that Warriors

roster, I don't see a lot of stoppers in this roster. My best player is going to get whatever he wants. That always gives you a decent enough chance right there. That's going back to the Mavs. I mean, that's what's sitting there for them. If they can just win two here, I think Golden State's pretty beatable. Doesn't seem like they have the same home court advantage anymore either.

I think the Oracle just had a different energy to it. Now, people who go say, no, no, it gets there. There's been moments. But that Memphis game yesterday, I just thought the atmosphere was dead. It wasn't like Miami level dead, but it was pretty I don't know, pretty lackluster for

what we used to get from that. I mean, I remember the We Believe. It felt like the Mavs were playing in an airport hangar where those games were going. It's 15th anniversary of that. Oh, is it? Yeah.

I'm still mad the Warriors lost the Utah series. I think I even bet on them that series too. I just thought I was ready to ride them all the way and then freaking Darren Williams and all those dudes.

Any last predictions before we go? No, I don't. I mean, I think however the Bucs go, everything else goes. I mean, I'm going to ride with the Bucs. I'm going to honestly lose. Okay. All right. Lotteries in six days. You ready? Let's go.

It'll be fun. Who do you want? Who's your dream number one team? Who's your dream team to get the number one pick? I think from a basketball perspective, the team I'd love to see win is Oklahoma City. If you can get Shea, Josh, Giddy, and then one of these top three big men,

you've got a legit super team. That would be awesome to watch. I think by far, they're the team, if they win this lottery, it's looking like the old Oklahoma State Thunder all over again, possibly. I think by far, they're the team that if they win this lottery, it's looking like the old Oklahoma State Thunder again, all over again, possibly. I think by far, they're the team that really just jumps to the top of the league really fast.

That would be fun. Detroit's the other one for me, just to give Cade a running mate would be enjoyable. Cade and Jabari Smith, I would just enjoy. Yeah, you want to get multiple stars together. Those are the most fun teams, and those are the ones that kind of jump

out. You've got the one in place. Oh, we've got two. Let's go. We've got something really special happening. All right, Charks. Good luck with the Mavs. Good to see you as always. Say hi to the fam for us, and we'll talk to you soon. As always, that was fun.

All right, Chris Mannix is here. You can read him at Sports Illustrated. You can hear him on The Zone where we'll talk about the big fight that happened last week and big upset. But we're going to talk Celtics to start out here.

We were taping this. It is in the morning on Tuesday. So if anything crazy happens, forgive us. But huge Celtics win last night. I think the single best win of the Tatum-Brown era, unless you're going to give me the Kelly Olenek game against the Wizards, but that's at home.

You're going against a pretty, you know, a pretty forgettable Wizards team. This Bucs team, I know they're missing Middleton. I know they were feeling it in the fourth quarter. But just the level that Giannis is going to. The Celtics strategy almost in game four seemed to be let's just let Giannis hopefully

tire himself out. It was like rope-a-dope with Ali and Foreman. What if he takes 35 shots and also has to guard everyone defensively? Maybe he'll get tired? And he actually did. So that was one thing. And then we had this incredible Al Horford game. 12 hours later, what jumps out to you? It's still Horford. And I just kind of marvel that he's able to do this for this team when anyone could have had Al Horford last summer.

The Thunder were giving him away. The only offers Oklahoma City received outside of Boston's were offers that asked them to include a first-round pick attached to them. So the Celtics, we know they wanted to get off Kemba's contract, but to get him for really just a mid-first-round pick is remarkable. Look, at times early in the season,

he didn't look like he had this in him, but in the second half and against the Nets in the second half and against the you know the nets in the first round and these last couple of games like they're toast without al horford like they lose this series and like as i watch him and i think about the series moving forward like i don't know if i wouldn't start al horford at center in game five like i would rob williams even if he's healthy, I think Al Horford is a tougher matchup for Milwaukee at the five spot

than Robert Williams is at this point. So it's just Al. Like, how... You know, we can get into the layers of it, but, like, how he was able to summon what he's been able to summon the last two games. I mean, he was great in game three, but game four, 16 points,

makes all six of his shots in the fourth quarter, makes a couple of threes, played really good defense on Giannis throughout the game. He was the savior for them, no question. Then you had that awesome moment where Giannis stares him down and Horford does the nod. This Celtics team

over the years, I wouldn't call them the toughest team. I think there was a sense around the league and even with the fan base, like this team would get knocked down, get knocked around. Jake Crowder getting elbowed in the head with J.R. Smith, all that stuff.

LeBron bulldozing through everybody in game seven, 2018. And even Miami, 2020. And there was just a sense of just Tice getting called for charges. Tice ending up holding his face, even though he was the one that committed a foul. And there was a toughness switch that flipped.

This team in general, I know it comes from Madoka. He put some chest hair on Derek White, it looked like, between game two and game three. We'll talk about that. But then Horford as the old wily vet, Smart getting a little bit older,

Tatum and Brown, a lot tougher than I think maybe they were when they came into the league. There's a mental toughness to this team now, but yeah, the Horford piece of it, he had a really good first month. All of a sudden his three-point shot stopped going in. And you think, well, that's why, you know, this is why maybe they won't even bring him back next year. They can buy him out for 14 million. It's either way, it was like, at least we got off the Kemba contract.

I reached that stage of the deal. And then as you said, the second half, he started to come on. And now you're talking about a playoff weapon. This is as good as he has ever played for the Celtics. That's the crazy thing to me. Isn't he, like, you talk about the stages of Al Horford.

Like, are we now in the stage where it's almost like Chris Paul in Oklahoma City where it once became like this crappy contract you couldn't believe you had to take on? So now it's like,

all right, let's guarantee him $26.5 million next year. Keep him around. Like, why wouldn't we? Why wouldn't we bring this guy back into the mix? Like, you look at him and like, you know, his,

like people were saying like, you know, the dunk on Giannis was like vintage Al Horford. When was that vintage Al Horford? Al Horford's vintage was mid-range jump shooting in Atlanta. That was what he was. Almost like a finesse center. Yeah, and I think the player we've seen for most of this season

can play two or three more years. He's going to age really well as long as he's not forced to play power forward all the time like he was opposite of Joel Embiid in Philadelphia. Look, I think Al, I would pay him next year. I would guarantee that contract. He wouldn't try to get out of it. Are you kidding me? That's a no-brainer to me.

Well, and also the vet stuff that he brings to the locker room, which is the two things we always talked about this team. They need more vets. They need a point guard. Marcus has filled the point guard role and Horford has obviously filled the vet role. I was thinking, I was talking in front of mine last night. It's 2007 draft,

right? KD's been in the league 15 years, so has Horford. But you think of some of the other people in that draft. Greg Oden has been in the league for 10 years. Joe Kibno retired, what, four years ago? Three years ago? Conley looked completely washed in that Utah-Dallas series. Jeff Green's been on 100 teams. The 2000 draft was a million years ago. And like you said, with the Chris Paul and the Horford thing, it's becoming tougher and tougher to just figure out, how are these guys going to age?

In Horford's case, Presti might get a championship ring for this if the Celtics win, not for the trade, but for basically letting Al Horford leave and just rejuvenate his body for a year. Maybe that'll be the new inefficiency. Just let the old guys just leave on the bad teams for a year. They'll trade for them. You can't.

Him sitting on that Thunder bench in the second half of the season is paying dividends now. Like, not having to play over those last three months is, I firmly believe, enabling Al to play at this level over the last two months. Would he have nine months off, ten months off? Basically, and he's with that Thunder medical staff, which is renowned across the league.

So he got his body right last year being in Oklahoma City. He also got a lot of experience playing the five, which he wasn't in Boston at times, but he wasn't in Philadelphia. And playing opposite Shea Gilders Alexander, I think that gave him a little bit of a spark in his game. He got his three-point shot back a little bit that season, but it is most important that he didn't have to play. He could sit out for basically nine months, as you said, and then spend the summer just working on his body and coming into camp in great shape

and in the best physical condition he's probably been in in many years. Yeah, because we thought his knees were on their way out, right? Yeah, but you just was like there was. Yeah. But you just felt like there was going to be injury after injury coming for Al Horford at some point. There was the knee. I'm going to knock on wood as you're saying this. Yeah.

Yeah. We can't have that. The William situation. Yeah. Well, that was the other thing is you think smarts that I would say 80 percent. Although I think the adrenaline really carried him, especially in the second half of that game yesterday. But I still don't think he's 100%. And then Rob, who was,

he looked like 65, 70% in those first three games. Still got the long arms. He can be around the rim, but wasn't the same guy that he was before he got hurt. And then they scratched him. But you think like now we are Saturday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday. They put a ton of miles on Horford

in those two games, right? They're putting a ton of miles on Tatum, which I think was the secret part of why he was struggling a little bit in these Milwaukee games. He's playing like 43 minutes a game base. 41, 43 minutes. You think that's it? You really think that's it? No, no. I think they were

doing a bunch of stuff to him but I also think like big burden on both ends right and I think they were breaking his brain and then he finally realized

in the I don't know the fourth quarter like I just gotta attack I can't just give up on the play the moment they shut off

my lane I gotta like double down alright I didn't beat Wesley Matthews maybe I'll beat him two seconds from now maybe I gotta lane. I got to double down. All right, I didn't beat Wesley Matthews. Maybe I'll beat him two seconds from now. Maybe I got to fake. Can I get to the rim? No, I couldn't. No, I'm going to still try. I felt like he was giving up way too much. And I didn't know whether it was physically tired or mentally tired or what was going on. But then

all of a sudden it clicked in. I think he was going too fast for most of that game. I mean, he kept looking. He'd make the catch. And he'd look, and he'd stare at Drew Holiday or Wesley Matthews, two good defenders. Then the Bucs always show that backline defender, whether it's Brooke Lopez or Giannis, hanging out there. And I think Tatum just started to go too quickly, and that affected him the first three quarters. I really thought he slowed down in that fourth quarter

and just went into straight attack mode, sizing up whoever was in front of him and going to the rim. He made some acrobatic shots. I mean, like he, the shots he was making there were not easy.

The one shot was lucky, but yeah. I mean, when that went in, I was like, oh, the Celtics were winning. Yeah, there were two that were really lucky. He had one, you know,

driving to the paint side of the glass, whatever it was. He had a lot of lucky shots or a couple of lucky shots in that game, but I give him credit for kind of sticking with it and not getting, you know, so down that that's kind of what makes me, makes me a little optimistic about the Celtics going into game five, because in this series, we have not had a complete Tatum game.

Like game two, he had 30 or 29 points, but that was the Jalen Brown game. Like Jalen had 25 points in the first half. Like that was the Jalen game. Game two, he had 30 or 29 points, but that was the Jalen Brown game. Jalen had 25 points in the first half. That was the Jalen game. This game was the Al Horford game with Tatum chipping in 12 in the fourth quarter. Game five at home, doesn't this feel like the Jason Tatum game? It has to be. This is the game he puts it all together and has 40 in a game like this. This to me is his opportunity to put together and has 40 in a game like this. This, to me, is his opportunity to put his stamp on this series because he has not had a complete game yet.

Yeah, he hasn't had the great two-way game where it just felt like he was in control the whole time. But I would say that's been the whole playoffs. He's had good halves. He's had good stretches. But we haven't seen him have a masterpiece game yet. I do think he hasn't in him. I think you do too. His passing, though. His passing was really good in the Nets series.

It was. Almost nonexistent in this Bucs series. That's part of going too fast. He's not looking for teammates as often as he was. The Nets defense wasn't really a defense. That was just five guys out there with their hands up. The Bucs are actually having a defensive strategy out there. I think Tatum has been frustrated.

He's been going too quickly into his moves and not looking for teammates like he was in that last round. Yeah, I was looking at free throw attempts and assists with him. The dream game for him is always like 10 for 18, eight assists, 11 free throw attempts, something like that. That's where you always want him to be. When the assists and the free throw attempts, something like that. That's where you always want him to be when the assists and the free throw attempts are non-existent,

like they were in the first half yesterday. Not great. I think they have a better team. I felt that way heading into this season. I don't think that means they're going to win the series because Giannis is that great. And I was talking to Rosillo on Sunday about the best players the Celtics have played

in the playoff series since I've been alive from an unstoppable standpoint. And to me, he's right there with all the greats. Kareem, Magic, LeBron, like the stuff he's doing. How limited his team is, where the fact

that Holiday has to shoot 22 to 30 times a game is such a bad time for them. They literally only have one other creator. And now what was happening in that last game was everybody just kind of standing around watching Giannis him trying to go one-on-one. It's not sustainable. He's not going to

be able to take 30 shots a game, 15 free throws a game, and do the defense on the other end playing every other night. Even him. He's superhuman. Every time he goes to the basket the way he does, it takes a little something out of him. Because the Celtics, even when they get scored on,

they're bumping him, they're grinding him, they're knocking him to the ground. That's why, like, when Giannis pulls up three, he's doing the Celtics a favor. When he's shooting mid-range jump shots, he's doing the Celtics a favor. And as I watched him in the fourth quarter last night, it almost seemed like he was looking for the Celtics

to give him a cushion so he could pull up from mid-range because he was so tired. I mean, there was that moment when he got tangled up with Marcus and Marcus tried to help Mo up a couple of times and Giannis kind of lay there on the floor. He came out right after that. They needed to give him a minute blow.

And that was with five minutes left. Yeah. It wasn't that top of the fourth quarter. He was exhausted. And that's not going to change as this series progresses. It's, it's unrealistic to believe that drew holiday can be a 25 point guy, 30 point guy,

take 30 shots and be efficient with it. It's just unrealistic. And Pat Connaughton can get hot. I guess Bobby Portis can put up some points. But they can't create their own shots. No, they can't. It's just everybody standing around. And I feel like that's been part of the Celtics strategy all series,

to make sure you're as physical with Giannis as humanly possible because even if it doesn't pay off in games one and game two, there's a toll he pays in every one of these games. And I think you saw kind of the totality of that pay off for them in the fourth quarter last night. You know, the other thing, one of my favorite things about a playoff series is you just get to play somebody potentially seven times in two weeks,

and you learn their habits, you just get to play somebody potentially seven times in two weeks and you learn their habits. You get used to some stuff. Holiday is a really hard guy to defend offensively because he's got that herky-jerky spin move game. But then when you see it four times in eight days, suddenly not as hard. I felt like yesterday was the first time they were kind of anticipating, they were waiting on him to finish the herky-jerky stuff and then jumping at the ball when he was releasing and stuff like that. If I'm Milwaukee, the key to this series for me is I can't have Giannis and Holiday initiating everything.

I need to get, as weird as this is to say, I need to get Conrad and Allen involved. I need handoffs with them. I just need them touching the ball versus just Giannis and Holliday are going to take

60% of our field goal attempts. I don't think that's going to work in a best two out of three. They're going to need the other guys. Now, Conant is great in Boston. He's from Massachusetts. Every time he's there,

he always ends up being good. Portis, they had to stagger the minutes because that big line was getting killed. Grayson Allen, I guess, would be the X factor. I still don't know the Lopez piece. I don't feel like they could play Giannis Lopez, Portis together.

They don't have that one heat check guy, which is what's interesting about the Ibaka trade. Ibaka's not even playing. You know, defense Chenzo, who I wasn't a huge fan of, but they need somebody like that who can come in and just get 12 points in five minutes out of nowhere. And that's one of the things they don't have. And that's the middle, that goes back to the Middleton thing where I heard JJ on first take today was talking about the Giannis Middleton, their little, they had multiple versions of that high screen and that was their go-to play at the end of games.

Now their go-to play is just Giannis kind of going one-on-three. They have to fix that, but how do they fix it? What would you do? To go back to, I agree, DiVincenzo would have been useful here. They had to do that deal, though, because they had no idea what Brook Lopez was going to happen with. Coming off back surgery, you had to do that deal, though, because they had no idea what Brook Lopez was going to happen with. Coming off back surgery, you had to have another big in the mix if you were going to make a run. Ibaka, theoretically,

because of his experience, could have been that guy. I don't know. They don't want to take the ball out of Giannis' hands. He's just too good with it. I don't know what the adjustment is going to be for them offensively. I don't know what the adjustment is going to be for them offensively.

I don't know what card can he play. Like what card can Mike Budo play in this situation? Maybe it's the first half. First half maybe less Giannis

because he had like 18 field goals attempts in the first half yesterday. Yeah. Maybe it's kind of waiting and then you drop

the Giannis hammer as we get to the last 15 minutes of the game. You can get down by like, you know, they've been able to build leads in that third quarter and staying in game. Like you start playing that game and trying to be more deferential. And you know, if Grayson Allen's not making shots, if Conlon's not making shots, like you can get down 10, 15 points in Boston and you're probably not coming back from that. Like no matter how great Giannis is, it's kind of like game 2 where I thought the Bucs played really well

in the second half of Game 2, but Boston just played better because they're at home and everybody got it going in that game. That's a risk. There's a lot of things I think Mike Budenholzer can do defensively to try to shift things around. Actually, I think Mike's had a really good series. Me too. Because I think what Mike did in having Conadon and Grayson Allen set screens for Giannis

has really opened him up. I mean, the Celtics have made a living off being a switch-everything type of team. You really can't do that against Milwaukee. Because every time Giannis sees Jalen Brown, he's going straight to the rim after. That was a great adjustment by Boudinot the last couple of games. And the Celtics haven't really matched that, but they don't have the horses. They don't have the guys

offensively to take the pressure off Giannis like you need to be and he's going to get tired late in these games. They still have the best player in this series, which is why I'm not passing out the cigars yet. In person has just hit this level that's pretty rare. You're talking

12, 13 guys in the history of the league that can just casually put up a 35, 18, seven, you know, against a team that's as good as the Celtics. The Celtics have the better balance. The, the biggest kind of sneaky subplot of those last two games, that was Derek White, who I thought was unplayable in those first two games, offensively. Defensively, he's always going to be at least somewhat valuable, depending on where his confidence is.

But offensively, unplayable. And he came out game three, and you could see it immediately. He was way more physical. He was carrying himself differently. What do we think Ime's speech was between game two and game three? Do we have any idea?

No, you know, I was talking to somebody about that within the team, and one thing this person said was like, we weren't unhappy with kind of his shot selection the first couple of games or necessarily the way he was playing. He just wasn't playing as physical as everybody else. This is the most physical series of the postseason

by a country mile. There are bodies out there landing every single possession. It's like Greco-Roman wrestling out there in this series. And Derek White wasn't doing that. He wasn't playing to the level of physicality that Milwaukee and his teammates were

playing to. The last couple of games, internally, they believed he was. That's the big difference. I believe he was. Yeah, he just ratcheted up a notch. He was bouncing off dudes. There was one time when somebody was on him and he threw his elbow out at the guy.

It was stuff that he was not doing in the Brooklyn series in the first two. He's a legit 6'3". He's a big guy. He should be able to do a lot of the same things that you do with Marcus Smart with Derek White. He just wasn't there the first couple of games. The Nets series wasn't that physical from

Brooklyn, so maybe that took a bit to adjust to, but after those first couple of games... He's also never been in a series like this. No, he's not. When was he doing this with San Antonio? That three-guard lineup the Celtics had. Pritchard stayed in. He overstayed his welcome by about a minute, but that was an

interesting wrinkle, and then they settled on smart way Jalen Tatum and Horford, which is... What did Pritchard finish, by the way? I looked at my stat sheet in Milwaukee. He's like plus 19 on points. Yeah, this is why plus minus is stupid. Monster plus minus 19.

He missed that three in the corner, and then Connaughton immediately answered with the three and it was a six-point swing and it was like, oh my God, please don't let that be a moment. The Celtics, though, if White's going to be who he was the last two games, they become really hard to beat,

however much they get out of Williams, just because now they can go big and small depending on the matchup. And if they want to play lineups off the court, they have the ability where the Bucks are basically stuck with two different versions of six guys, right? Five of these six guys, we can go a little bigger

or we can go smaller, but that's it. We don't really have enough. Now, the Celts are favored by, I think, almost six in game five. Ooh, that's a lot. It's a lot. And I think Giannis will be as incredible. You know, there was some Horford stuff last night that made me a little nervous when

everybody talking about, don't stare at our Horford like that. And, but like, I, I do feel like Giannis probably hears some of that stuff. He's like, really?

Like you realize that I'm like a generational physical specimen, right? You're going to like be bragging about it. So I don't know. I, I'm interested to see how that plays out, right? You're going to be bragging about it. So I don't know. I'm interested to see how that plays out. But the crowd's going to be amazing. Look, I was there for the 81 Celtics Sixers series. I went to all those home games.

That's the legendary Celtics series from a physicality standpoint. Game five, game six, game seven, just bodies everywhere. Every play. The last five minutes of game seven, if you watch on YouTube, there's four guys on the floor. Last night was reminding me of that a little bit. There's just sequences. It was like rollerball. There was just guys

strewn on the floor, sideways, guys lying on each other. And I think this game five will be even more physical. Yeah, and maybe I'm in the minority, but I had no problem with the way the referees officiated the game. The Celtics fans and the Celtics themselves get way too wrapped up with

referees to their detriment. Like they, like Tatum complains a lot. Grant Williams was whining the entire game and that took him out of it. And look, he had a couple of ticky-tack calls. He was bad. Yeah. In the third quarter, he probably could have, one of those calls probably could have gone his way. But look, the referees, unless you are clobbering somebody, they're letting stuff go in this series and i love that like i

love that both these teams have big physical players and they're being allowed to play big and physical so yeah i mean whoever is able to to win the physicality battle is probably going to win like yeah i was on this is why you don't watch games while on Twitter. Like, Celtics fans are complaining about, you know, the referees in the third quarter when they're getting clobbered at that point in points in the paint. They're getting clobbered at the free throw line. They're just, you know,

rebounding, they were getting beat up. So like the Celtics in the fourth quarter, the referees didn't change. They just matched the physicality and played stronger, played more physical than Milwaukee. And that's something I think they have to, you know, for 48 minutes, they've got to be able to beat Milwaukee at the physical battle. Well, and you knew Giannis. He's the hardest guy in the league to officiate right now.

Yeah. I don't know. It's very reminiscent of Shaq. It's like, what do you do? Play to play. He's so strong. And anytime he can get any sort of contact, the other guy's going to lose. And it's just, what do you do with it? Do the Celtics win the title if they win this series? I think they get to the finals. I don't know.

Golden State, Phoenix, even Dallas, I guess, if they come out of that series. Less sure about that. They've had problems with Miami, and Miami plays really physical with them, too, and they haven't always responded to that. But Philly, they've kind of figured out, I think, a little bit, especially with Rob Williams, if he's healthy in that series. I would favor Boston considerably over Miami or Philadelphia. Not that it's easy, but I would favor them over both those teams. I felt like the three best teams were Boston and Milwaukee and Phoenix.

Phoenix, I thought that series was done. 2-0. And then Dallas just all of a sudden flipped it. Now we'll see. Game five, we're taping this before we see game five tonight. But that was the first time I was like, oh, that would be cool if Phoenix wasn't in the finals. That would be helpful.

But I guess- You don't think they match up pretty well, I think, with Phoenix, though. I mean- They do. I just think Phoenix, I really value what Phoenix did this season, especially the last five minutes of the game.

Before we go, two things. Really weird Jeannie Buss interview about the Lakers today in the LA Times where we found out that Magic now has input again. So does Phil Jackson. Kurt Rambis never stopped. Palenka is safe. Clutch and LeBron apparently don't have influence. We still don't know who made the Russell Westbrook deal. Everything's fine. She's confused why she spent so much on luxury tax to not make the playoffs and i left that piece going wow what the hell is going on with this team uh what was your reaction after you read it it first it's like great job bill plaschke for getting her to say all these things and sit down

and do that um the big takeaway for me is that genannie Buss seems to really believe she's got the best and the brightest in that organization, which she does not. They are a marquee franchise that's being run like a Dave and Buster's. They really are. It's like they

have... Rob Palenka is fine. Long time NBA agent. He's got a lot of experience in the league we've seen agents have success before in these positions but to read kind of genie bust defend kurt rambis by describing his 40 years of experience that have led to that was amazing nothing consequential and then kind of denying that linda rambis is involved in basketball operations but affirming that she is an advisor which kind of suggests she's involved in basketball operations and i kind of flashed back to something that rob palenka said at the end at the end of

the season media veil when he's like our basketball operation staff will dig into this with me, Kurt, and the two buses, like the two bus men in that organization. Like you compare that bill to what the Clippers have going on out there and the front office structure that they've built. They've hired some of the best out there. You know, Lawrence Frank is a lifer. Michael Winger is an excellent,

is a future GM in this league. They've got a lot of guys in that front office that seem to know what they're doing. And you can't argue that while both teams missed the playoffs, the Clippers are in far better shape over the next few years as they kind of build that thing out. So I don't know.

I don't know how a team like that, which should have limitless resources, which should go out of its way to have the best front office in all of basketball, can be run in such a mom-and-pop way. I just don't get it.

You know who's happy about it? The other 29 teams. Sure. Because the worst case scenario for all of those teams is if Jeannie looks around one day as she's having people on the deck with all her advisors, all of whom are just either taking money from her or whatever, and she looks around and goes,

maybe I should get that guy, Sam Presti, from Oklahoma City, and I'll just pay him $50 million a year, and he could just run this and fix this. That would be a worst case scenario for the league. And Presti's just sitting there now as Messiah's he's in, in Toronto, the Boston situation seems pretty stable at this point. Clippers are stable. Gold stayed stable. If you're just talking about like, who's the big ticket name out there that could immediately fix your franchise. I would say it's

Presti. I don't know if he'd want to work for the Lakers. He grew up in Massachusetts. But it's kind of hard for me to believe she wouldn't look at this and go, our team can't find or keep talent. We've made wrong decisions pretty much all the time, except for the Anthony Davis trade, which, by the way, we gave up more assets in that trade than anyone's ever given up in an NBA trade ever.

Maybe I need to bring somebody in who actually knows what they're doing. I don't know if he'd want to work there either. But I think another opportunity, a big one would appeal to him. A whole truckload of money, which the Lakers could offer, would appeal to him. I'm 100% sure that if Sam Presti took a job like that, he would only take it if he could pink slip everybody in the organization and he could tell every member of the Buss family

besides Genie that they should lose his number and they do not have access to the front office and their input is no longer required. It's me, it's Genie, and it's our coach. That's it.

We're three people. Owners always have input. Genie Buss should have input in what goes on with that team. Every owner does, including, by the way, Clay Bennett in Oklahoma City. So that's not an issue.

But like everybody else, you're gone. I'm building out my own staff. I'm doing my own thing and I'm going to do this my way. In which I'm not so sure that Jeannie Buss would give. I don't think she would.

I think she'd like it. She'd be satisfied with this. She likes it the way it was. Bill, we are in the media, we're all idiots sometimes. We have hot takes that go nowhere. I thought Marcus Smart was going to be a shitty point guard. I was dead wrong about that. He makes me eat that every time I hear or talk to him or talk

to somebody that knows him. But everybody that knew anything about basketball knew the Westbrook trade was dumb. They knew it wasn't going to work out. And yet, the Lakers do it and they they act like, it's okay, we'll just pivot from that. We'll figure out. The new coach coming in, we'll figure out how to make it work with Russell Westbrook.

Again, great interview by Bill Plasky. I just didn't agree with anything that Jeannie Buss was saying. Amazing stuff. I like that Magic's back, too, after he absolutely blowtorched them. Phil Jackson's back! Forget Magic. Magictorched them in that one hour press conference. No, but forget Magic. Magic

at least, like, he's got history with Genie, all that stuff. Like, he's like, whatever. But like Phil Jackson, who was one of the worst GMs ever. Like, you know, brutal GM in New York. He's offering advice on how to tweak the team. Like, what are we doing? Like, how does this make any sense

to be taking advice from from people that do not have a track record of success at that particular job all right 45 seconds to talk about vegan canelo losing for the first time in nine years bit off more than he could chew um beevil was not sergey kovalev sergey kovalev was canelo's first foray at light heavyweight three years ago kovalev was washed at that point foray at light heavyweight three years ago. Kovalev was washed at that point in his career. He hasn't fought since then. Bivol was 31, is 31, prime of his career,

great jab, real light heavyweight power, had been a light heavyweight his entire professional career, and I can tell you from being around him all week, was not flummoxed or flustered by the moment one bit. He had the same expression on his face on Wednesday. Thanks for telling me if you're gambling.

Yeah, thanks for giving me the tip. I couldn't have bet, but I wouldn't have bet against Canelo either. You just can't. Until he loses, you just can't. You figure this plan A, B, C, whatever he's going to do. But Bevo came out there, and from the first second,

dictated the pace of that fight. Canelo had no answers. What was embarrassing, frankly, was that Bevo almost got robbed. If he doesn't win that 12th round, all three judges call it 114-114, a draw, which would have been bonkers. He lost the first four rounds on all three cards. And after round three, I was texting with my boxing friends being like, whoa, Canelo's in trouble. He won all the rounds, apparently. I think I was one of them.

You were texting there. Yeah, yeah. I was like, what's happening? I'm calling the fight and you're texting me from there. Yes. I don't care. I had a 17-11.

Me too. And I thought that was generous towards Canelo because I split the first four rounds when he easily could have lost three out of those four. I will say this. There is a lesson here, and it dates back to

boxing history. You keep moving up, and it seems easy, and it's like Sugar Ray is like, oh, here's Donny Lallon. That's great. He'll beat him, but at some point, you move up, and you're facing somebody who's in their prime, and is in that division, and that's not what you want to be. Let me tell you something. Sugar Ray,

he told me something about Donny LLon once that always stuck with me. He's like, I won that fight. It looks good on paper. But in the first round, Donny LeLon hit me with the right hand, and I was like, oh, shit. This is going to be a long night. Like, he knew he was in with a real light heavyweight. And from the first round on, Canelo Alvarez knew he was in with a real light heavyweight. Honestly, I hope he punts on the rematch.

I know his pride's probably going to push him in that direction. Go back. And no, go to Golovkin. Do the third Golovkin fight anyway. That was the plan all along, to make that fight between Canelo and Golovkin in September. Do that anyway. You're still undisputed at 168. Golovkin is still a marketable guy, having gone 4-0

since he lost to you back in 2018. Of course, everyone would pay for it. Leave BivolVol and light heavyweight alone. You figured out where your ceiling is. It's 175 pounds. That's where you need to stop. You're a guy that began your career at 140 and have done remarkable things climbing these weight ranks, daring to be great.

But 175 is a bridge too far against a guy like that. Chris Mannix, good to see you as always. You can listen to, if you love boxing, listen to his podcast. What's the podcast called? Boxing with Chris Mannix. It's a very creative title. There you go. All right.

Good to see you, Chris. See you in Boston. All right. Editor-at-large of The Ringer, Brian Curtis is here. I felt like you were just on. You know something happened if you're getting pulled back in, uh, Tom Brady,

who's still playing football, just got signed to a deal to be the new Fox lead NFL analyst, which I guess is going to start TBD. And they're going to pay him 10 years, $375 million, which is, seems intentional. It's basically twice as much as Tony Romo and Troy Aikman.

And we have no idea if he's going to be good at announcing football games. None. Zero. I followed the guy 20 years. I have no idea if he's going to be good. I'm leaning toward he might actually not be good. Ooh.

But I'm not willing to rule out him being good. My point is, I have no idea. He's always kept it close to the vest. He's pretty good on Manning in the Arena. It's a little gregarious on that.

I think it's a little different when you're in the booth and you have to criticize coaches and play calling and quarterback play, which is a huge part of that job. Strategy.

Do you think he'll have it? Do you think he'll do it? What's your gut check? I think Peyton Manning unlocked something that Tom Brady can do when he gets in the Fox booth, whenever that is. TBD, as you say, no pun intended, TBD, which is be professor football.

So really what you're talking about is X's and O's. You're happy, you're excited, you're dazzled by quarterback play, but you really never just kill anybody. The only time you really get mad is when football is sloppy or the refs screw up or the coach makes a bad decision. And then you kind of shake your head a little bit. Like we saw Peyton do on the Manning cast. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

I'm just, I'm troubled by this. Yeah. And I think if Brady fits into that slot, he could be really good at that because there's no question he can talk about football and explain football, but yeah. So that, that's how I kind of see him doing this job. Can you do your thing about what Fox really wants at the start of a football game? What's that?

The first minute when we come in, we're looking live. What does Fox want to say? At the beginning of a game? Yeah. When we get Kevin Burkhart and Brady sitting there together? Yeah, and they do the, I'm Kevin Burkhart and Brady sitting there together. Yeah, and they do the I'm Kevin Burkhart. I'm here with seven-time Super Bowl MVP Tom Brady.

And Tom, that's really what they want. That intro is what matters the most to Fox. They don't want to be like, and I'm here with Trent Green. Or I'm here with a really good Carolina Panthers tight end, Greg Olson. Yeah, I'm here with Greg really good Carolina Panthers tight end, Greg Olson. Yeah. I'm here with Greg Olson, who you might remember in video games and as well as he was

in some playoff games. Yeah. The Tom Brady, his chin, the seven rings, and there's just an air of credibility, which I think it matters to Fox. So that's what really surprised me about this whole thing, Bill, is we thought Fox was happy to let ESPN win the press release this time. Yeah. To say, hey, you got Buck and Eggman. Oh, you got it. You win. You guys win. Meanwhile, we put in Burkhart and Greg Olson and nobody cares. Yeah, we're going money ball. Yeah. We don't lose one viewer. And about week three or four, everybody decides, hey, I like these guys. They're not the big, big names that we've come to know, but I really like these guys. And they grow into big names and nobody cares at the end of the day.

What does Fox do today? They do the ultimate win the press release move. On an earnings call, they signed Tom Brady for as much as ESPN was paying Buck and Aikman together. Right. So combined, Brady and Burkhart now make more than Buck and Aikman. They just could have brought back Buck and Aikman. So what seemed to be their strategy was actually not their strategy at all. It was the opposite one.

That's what really shocked me. I think it's one of the most confusing media moments in recent sports media history. I don't understand any piece of it, including the part that he might play two more years. What if Olsen and Burkhardt are really good together? And Tom Brady's just going to come in as the homewrecker? Also, as somebody who really appreciates all the great stuff Brady did for my life over the years, won us all these Super Bowls, so many fun moments. This seems to be a guy that's just grasping at the next step really since that last playoff game.

He retired, he unretired. Was he going to go to San Francisco? I guess that door was slammed immediately. Oh, no, wait. He was going to go to Miami and have a piece of the ownership and run the thing. Oh wait, was he going to play for them too? Like all the stuff came out about the Miami thing, which definitely there was smoke and fire, whether it was going to be, he went there initially to play and then moved in the front office or just moved right away.

Then that fell through, but gradually goes back to Tampa Bay. All of a sudden that coach gets bounced. No, Tom loved him. No, he didn't. Come on, stop. And now he's set up for this 10-year TV career after he told us how he wanted to spend time with his family. I don't know. If I was his media PR advisor,

I wouldn't even know what to do with it. I think I would just resign. I'd be like, Tom, good luck. Well, they just negotiated this $335 million deal. So before I resign, got to get that commission before I resign. It's all over the place. What, what major athlete has been more all over the place after they retired than this? And he hasn't even retired yet. Yeah. And I think, I think what I expected him to do was the Manning thing where you're involved in media in

some way, but it's something you own and it's not something where you're required to show up at an NFL stadium every Sunday, every week, on through the playoffs and off to the Super Bowl. Right? I'm sure it's private jets every game, right? He's

in and out same day. So that's on top of the 37.5 billion a year. And by the way, the quiet thing now, the quiet perk, I think for these big announcers is I arrive on Sunday. I don't get there on- And I'm not memorizing any of the jerseys. Uh-uh. I don't get there Saturday and do the nice team dinner with the producers and all the production guys. No, no, I'm coming in Sunday. I announced the game and Sunday after the game, private jet,

I'm home. Right. That's the new flex for the announcers. I just don't know how we got to this point and why none of the networks have tried to zag against it. And just said, Hey, what's the zag?

Yeah. Fox. I really appreciated their strategy, even, what's the zag? Yeah, Fox, I really appreciated their strategy even though I don't, you know, Greg Olson, not exactly a household name,

but I think he's a good announcer. I enjoyed him last year. So now we have this Brady situation. When does the contract start? You texted me about Theismann joined the Super Bowl one year

when he was still playing as the third announcer. Who was the announcer crew that year? It was Frank Gifford, Don Merritt, and Joe Theismann. Incredible. Rick Barry had some moments in the mid-70s when he would get knocked out for the playoffs and then he would join CBS and be an announcer. We've seen this sometimes. What if Brady loses in round two? Does he

join the Super Bowl? Doesn't Fox have the Super Bowl this year? Do they have it next year? They have it this year, February 12th, 2023. So is that a piece of this? And does that mean then the contract kicks in right away? Ooh. So we're paying $37.5 million to announce the Super Bowl? To have Tom Brady at our, maybe the NFC title game in the Super Bowl. I wonder if that was part of this. I mean, there's a hundred percent chance that when Brady has a bye week this week, he's going to be sitting between Terry Bradshaw and Howie Long on a Fox set somewhere.

And I'd say there's 100% chance he's going to be part of the Super Bowl broadcast if he's not playing in it. And also part of the NFC Championship game broadcast if he's not playing in it. So maybe it started this year. And maybe they get some special Fox access to Tom Brady during the course of this season. That's unusual. And then is this like a salary cap violation? I don't think I've ever seen that part either. It seems like a lot of money for two appearances. Could Brady potentially say, I'm getting $37.5 million from Fox this year. Hey, Tampa Bay, knock my salary down to $1 million and let's use that money for one more guy. I don't know.

This is a great conspiracy bill moment here. The date I'd point you to is the 2025 Super Bowl. So Fox has two of the next three. So 2025. So let's say Brady plays for the Bucks this year. He plays for a mystery team next year, Dolphins, 49ers, whoever he wants to play for. Then he goes into the boot in fall 2024 with a Super Bowl at the end of that season. That feels like a pretty decent timeline for him. Well, he also has that religionist sports company that he's involved with that Gotham Troper does.

So he's making content on that end. But then he's also a work-for-hire guy on Fox. I'm just confused by all of it. And then the other piece is, this guy retired, now he unretired. So is this his last year? We don't know. He reminds me a little of Magic

after Magic retired the first time. When Magic had that five-year run, when he just seemed like he couldn't figure out what he wanted to do, right? And he ended up, he coached for a little while. He did the Magic show. He did announcing. He did the magic show. He did announcing. He came back and ended up playing in 1996.

And he was just a guy who didn't want to give up the limelight and was still such a famous person that all of it made sense individually. But when you look back, it looks a little weird. And then ultimately, I think he reinvented himself as a businessman and not that he wasn't even doing that. That was always when he was a player and after, but I think he realized eventually

this is where I'm going to win in business and then he threw himself into that. Brady seems like a guy who's really struggling to try to figure out what he wants to do next. Well, you and I have talked about this before. The mega, mega, mega, megastar tier of athlete. We don't always see them become an announcer. And sometimes we say, wouldn't it be fun if they did become an announcer?

Right. Like Kobe was a pretty good example of this, I think. He got in a little bit, did the Muse Cage stuff and the ESPN Plus stuff. Yeah, it had to be on his terms. He didn't want to do, he didn't want to be part of a production. It had to be created by Kobe Bryant, basically. But he could have absolutely done it. He would have been

amazing. When Jalen and I had that hour with him, it was amazing. I mean, he was so smart and he was so quick. He had a good sense of humor. He would go on TNT every once in a while. He's really good at that too. Jordan, I don't know. I think he would have been too arrogant.

Yeah. Though that might have worked for him. Charles Barkley's enjoying his 20th year on TNT right now. True. But we're going to get to see it with Brady. And part of you has got to be excited for this. Tom Brady on television. And look, maybe it's a train wreck.

Maybe it's Joe Montana. I kind of doubt it's that bad. It won't be Joe Montana. It'll be more Drew Brees. It'll be completely forgettable. Where I just spent three hours with you announcing a football game and I can't remember a single moment you had.

That would be my fear with Brady. We're just like very careful. Just afraid to ad lib. And just careful. I think that was the Breeze thing. And then there was rumors about Breeze, Fox trying to steal Breeze from NBC and all that stuff. It was like, really? Did they watch the games

last year? So what we don't want is careful. Say something. It's weird. Basketball, I was thinking about all the guys they have this time around. The best color guy right now, other than I think Van Gundy

has been really good, even when he saddled with Jackson. The best color guy right now, other than I think Van Gundy has been really good, even when he's saddled with Jackson, the best color guy in TNT is Greg Anthony, which I would not have expected. One of the reasons I like him is he's just like a straight shooter. He calls it like it is, and he breaks it down, and if somebody's not doing something right, he'll say it. We have not seen the superstars in basketball

for the most part really work, I think, except for Barkley. Football, Aikman's probably the best example, I would say, right, of a successful announcer who was also super famous. There's a lot of forgettable Dan Marino mixed in there. Montana. Never said anything.

Marcus Allen. Emmett. There's a lot. Emmett. Yeah, Emmett's a good one. Steve Young for X number of years on ESPN now. Yeah, Steve Young had a stretch

where I enjoyed him on the pregame show. But I think, you know, one of the things, this is why I think JJ has been so good with basketball. And I think JJ could be the best basketball color guy if he wanted to, but because he just played. Like I heard him on First Take today talking about what it's like to play Milwaukee because he had opinions because he literally just played them. So it's like, here's what they do. And I think once you lose that, you know, once you're out of the league for too long

and you don't have that kind of insight, that's when it becomes tougher. That would be a huge advantage for Brady going against some of these teams where it's like, oh yeah, we played the Chargers last year. Here's one of the things they love to do. They'll pull the safety up, but they'll bait.

And then all of a sudden he's going back and you gotta like, you know, and that's the stuff as a fan that I love, right? Yes, and that was Romo, especially when he started, you know, when he was fresh off the field. But now it's been five, six years. It's been five or six years

and then you got to work. And that's the one thing I would say about Tom Brady. It's really hard to imagine him mailing this in or mailing anything in in his life. Good point. It's like Manning. You knew if Manning was going to do something in announcing, he was going to be ready to go.

He was going to have studied up. He was going to come up with ideas. And I think Brady will be the same way. He will be ready to announce whether he'll be great or merely good or less than good. He's not going to go in there and just blow it off. I think at 60, 40, he's too careful. 40% chance he's not going to go in there and just blow it off. I think at 60-40, he's too careful. 40% chance he's really good.

And there's no way to know. That would be my take. I liked what you said earlier. I think the Manning-Brady rivalry is back. Manning got some love last year for the second screen thing. Maybe a little too much love. And then Brady's like,

watch this. And just comes over the top. Now he's making twice as much money to announce as all the other quarterbacks and is in a more high profile spot than Manning. Manning was on ESPN too. And I wonder if Manning's looking at this going, wait a second, would you have paid me $38 million a year? Because I would have liked that. My theory is that Manning unlocked a lot of stuff for athletes because they watch each other. Part of it's jealousy, but part of it's also just, hey, Peyton Manning is doing this. So that means it's okay. That gives license to a certain tier of athlete to want to do this, to want to get in the media business.

To me, what's interesting about the Brady deal will be what is Brady going to own out of all of this? Because we know with Peyton Manning ownership of what you're doing was big. Oh, Omaha productions. You see Omaha productions is doing Joe Buck's alternate telecast of the PGA championship. Okay. So Joe Buck is like thecast of the PGA championship. Okay. So Joe Buck is like the work for hire for Peyton Manning. Somehow we got to that point. Interesting. So does Tom,

I know, I know they said Tom Brady is going to be some kind of brand ambassador for Fox, which is something I don't quite understand at this point, but what, what part of this does Brady own? But I do absolutely think, I think they look at Manny and they go,

ooh, yeah, yes, he did it. I want it. That's my next career. It's funny how one person can become the catalyst for this whole domino thing. Because it happened in the NFL with Christian Kirk when he got that stupid contract. And all of a sudden, we had four wide receiver trades. People were like,

wait, what? That guy did what? And then all of a sudden it's happening. All right, before we go, the Dallas mayor wants a second NFL team. I just need your take on this. I can't imagine a worse idea ever in the history of mankind than Dallas having a second

football team. If you think it's bad for the Clippers with the Lakers as the second citizen, or what happened with the Brooklyn Nets with the Knicks and the Knicks aren't even good and they're still a second citizen. Clippers have been here since 1984 and they're just, the Lakers thing is always going to be insurmountable. What is the success possibilities of a second NFL team in Dallas? Would you say zero or zero? I would agree with both of those takes. You know how like the vintage teams that moved away thing is always kind of a cool deal to do with clothes and t-shirts and stuff. I don't think I ever saw a Dallas Texans boomlet when I was living there.

Right. I think I would have probably wanted one of those shirts just to be different, even though I'm a gigantic Cowboys fan. I don't think anybody ever cared. It's like, wait, the Chiefs used to be in Dallas? What? Let's put a pin in this one. I'm all good.

We only have room for one Jerry Jones in our life. What a two months he's had. We're going to have another owner making news at that clip? Come on. I mean, he'd have to be a lot crazier. Last thing, how excited are you for the Phil Mickelson book?

Is this the most important sports book that's come out in a couple years? Kind of snuck up on us, didn't it? I mean, we had the big reveal with his comments that put him in purgatory and still may be there, but Oh,

I'm incredibly excited because this has been out there. You know, I want to say 15 years ago, somebody was like, when is the real Phil Mickelson magazine story going to be written? Cause we passed around all the rumors. We knew, we knew it was there to be done and it feels like it's finally been done.

And ship knock is like legitimately respected. This is not, you know, people will take this book seriously. This is not some random dude floating in and be like, here's my Phil Mickelson autobiography. This is like a guy who's been covering golf and is really good at it for a long time. I can't wait. Yeah, this would be great. All right. Brian Curtis, good to see you. Good to see you good to see you Bill alright that's it for the podcast produced by Kyle Creighton as always

thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti as well I will see you on this feed on Thursday night go Southwark See them on the wayside Never said I don't have feelings with them On the wayside

Never said I don't have feelings with them