The Bill Simmons Podcast - Previewing the Rest of the NBA Finals With Jackie MacMullan and Seerat Sohi

Episode Date: July 16, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan and The Ringer's Seerat Sohi to examine and recap the first four games of the NBA Finals as well as speculate on the games to come. They discuss concerns about Chris Paul, the Bucks' supporting cast, Giannis Antetokounmpo's expanded impact on the game, unlikely heroes for the upcoming games, series predictions, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jackie MacMullan and Seerat Sohi Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nobody knows what's going on, but we watch the Olympics. We just turn on our TVs and become obsessed with sports we haven't thought about in four years. This is why we made the Ringer Guide to the Summer Games. I'm your host, Roger Sherman. Each day during the Tokyo Olympics, I'll tell you about a different sport, athlete, or storyline. We'll be releasing new episodes every day starting July 19th. Follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts so you know exactly how to watch the Olympics. This episode is brought to you

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Please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit RG-help.com. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fando and Fando Sportsbook. I was actually on Fando Sportsbook looking at lines for the finals, which we're about to talk about with Jackie McMullen and Syrit Sohi from The Ringer. The Bucks are four-point underdogs and plus 144 to win game five. They're plus 125 to win the finals. Giannis is plus 110 to win the MVP.

Well, Giannis isn't winning the MVP unless the Bucs win the finals. So cross that off. You're not getting good odds on the plus 110. I don't feel like the Bucs are winning game seven in Phoenix. I'd be really shocked if Milwaukee lost game five and then won game six and then won game seven in Phoenix. My point is, if you think the Bucs are going to win this series, I would take them at plus 144 in game five. And maybe you can get a little ambitious. Maybe day of the game,

maybe you decide not only are the Bucks going to win plus 144, but I think Giannis is going to score over 30 points. You can do a little same game parlay on FanDuel as well. So a lot of stuff. They have great odds. Check it out. FanDuel, the sponsor of the Bill Simmons podcast. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com

and The Ringer Podcast Network, where we announced Gene and Roger, new series coming out from The Ringer Podcast Network. It is a narrative podcast about Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert. Roger Ebert, who is the star of The Rewatchables. We always read his review of whatever movie we're doing. Speaking of The Rewatchables, we're doing Fight Club on Monday. So stay tuned for that. That will be the 197th Rewatchable. We are getting very, very close to our 200th movie. The reason we're doing that next week is because our first documentary

from our Music Box series, which I'm an executive producer of and is coming from Ringer Films, we're doing six music documentaries for HBO. They are premiering later this year, but we're doing a sneak preview of one because it is the 22nd anniversary of Woodstock 99, which was a tumultuous weekend to say the least.

This documentary we're doing, it premieres on HBO and on HBO Max. It's going to be on HBO on Friday night, July 23rd, and it's going to premiere on HBO Max that same day. We are really proud of it. It's directed by Garrett Price. It's excellent. So carve that out. Hopefully, if you bet the bucks in six and the finals will end and you can move right into Woodstock 99 or if we go seven and the finals is on Thursday night, finish that.

I think at midnight, maybe the doc's available on HBO Max. You can cap it off on a little Woodstock 99. So anyway, wanted to put that on your radar. Coming up, Jackie McMullen, Sears Sohi. They're going to be on together. Before we do that, let's bring in our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Jackie and Sered are here. We're taking this a little after 3 o'clock Pacific time on Thursday.

Bizarre finals. There is no flow to this at all. We have a game. We wait three days. We overreact to every narrative. Then another game happens. We overreact to every narrative. Then another game happens. We overreact the other way, and we're just going from there. Jackie,

biggest overreaction that you actually believe in after four games? Something's wrong with Chris Paul. I think that hand is a problem. There are certain things I expect out of Chris Paul all the time, whether he's having a good game or a bad game.

And one of them is to at least get to the free throw line, which he did not do in game four. Zero for zero. The turnover, if you watch it slowly, tried to watch it a bunch of times, that crossover to him, he could do that in his sleep. He could do it backwards and upside down. I think there's something wrong.

I think there's something wrong with Chris Paul physically. Now, he'll never say that. He's a gamer. And plus, we know that Chris Paul's history is all about injury. So it's the last thing he or anybody else wants to talk about. I just think something's up with him. I want to give Drew Holiday a ton of credit, OK, because that's got something to do with it, too. I just think something's up with him. Sarah, we, Russell and I had the same reaction coming out of last night's game.

It was like... Oh, did you? Well, no, just like, what's wrong? And then it's become a narrative today. People have been honing in on different videos and plays and like, oh, this is what... What do you think, Sarah? Yeah, I mean, he has those torn ligaments in his left hand. And I just, I just think Drew Holiday is the absolute worst person to have guarding you when you have any

sort of injury at all, especially if you're Chris Paul, he's got some, he's got some length on you. Yeah, it's just, and the Bucks in general as well, they just make things so physical. So basically, like, the Suns have had players that weren't injured that have gone down, right? They've gotten back up for the most part. Torrey Craig, Cam Johnson yesterday, and obviously Dario Sarge getting hurt. But honestly, just, if you're Chris Paul and you have to be guarded full court by Drew Holiday,

yeah, by game four, it's going to wear on you. You might be able to do it in game one and two and get him on your back and take advantage of him being so aggressive. But at the end of the day, it's just very difficult when he's the guy that's going up against you. So I think this is a little bit predictable. I know we don't like to predict injuries right, but we've heard this all the time

about Chris Paul, smaller point guard. The wear that you have to take if you're him is just really tough, and this is the worst team to run into. Honestly, it's just kind of a perfect storm. Yeah, it feels like people, first of all, pretty rare for the home team to win the first four

finals games. I think it's only happened four times in the last 40 years or something. Not a thing that happens often. I think people just assume, oh, it'll go back to Phoenix for game five. Their young guys will be better at home. Milwaukee, guys like Connaughton maybe don't show up on the road and it'll flip

and Phoenix will take care of business. I was looking at the shot charts because I think the shot charts sometimes can be fun, right? And I was looking at the first two games versus the last game. And there was one thing that really, really stood out. And I think it's partly Chris Paul.

And I think it's partly Milwaukee just studying the tape and realizing what to take away. There's no corner threes for Phoenix. Corner threes. I knew you were going to say it. They're gone. 100%.

And if you look at the shot chart in game two, they have at least 12 on both sides and the corners and a ton. There's a ton of attempts. It's almost hard to tell because you can look, if you go on ESPN, if you go on their game cast feed, it has the shot charts. Right. You go to game four, there's nothing.

I mean, there's like three attempts and all the shots are in the middle of the court and it's all a lot of mid-range stuff, which Booker was making last night. But to me, this looks like a series now where Milwaukee has figured out, all right, here's what we want Phoenix to do. And Phoenix did it actually pretty well until Booker got into foul trouble. But, um, I feel like they stumbled on something. Jackie, am I, what do you think? What do you think of that? Yeah, you stole a hundred percent stole my thunder. Absolutely. Those corner threes, when I was watching it live, I'm like, everybody knows that's the easiest shot.

We can maybe even hit that corner three. Why are they giving it to them? And I think so much of it, we're talking about Drew Holiday's defense, as we should, but so much of it has to do with everybody else too. Because Drew Holiday's guarding Chris Paul. But there's always somebody shading, hedging, pulling back, blocking off all these areas you're talking about. And, you know, I know everybody thought the play of the game because it was so spectacular was that block of Giannis. But to me, what you just said, the biggest play of the game in my mind was Devin Booker picking up his fifth foul with 11 minutes to go in the game.

Because I start I started charting after that. They were outscored, the Suns, 30-18 after he went out. They did not, if I'm not mistaken, I do not believe they hit another three-pointer the rest of the game. So if you've got a Chris Paul that's less than 100%, and Devin Booker in foul trouble, and he's one of those, you know, some people when they're in foul trouble,

they don't play any differently. Like Jimmy Butler, it doesn't matter if he has one foul or five fouls, he plays the same. I don't think Devin Booker is one of those guys. So I went back and looked what he did after that. He was two for six for the floor for four points after he got his fifth foul. And as we know, he got his sixth foul and his seventh foul in the same play. They just didn't call it. So I just thought that was a huge turning point. And to say Phoenix is in trouble, well,

maybe, but I'm not counting Chris Paul out yet. I'm certainly not counting Monte Williams out and the adjustments he'll make going forward. And Chris Middleton is such a funny player, because you look at him, you're like, well, he doesn't shoot the ball well, but his clutch shooting stats are off the charts, not just in this game, but pretty much throughout the postseason. So maybe we don't give him enough credit either. Yeah, I think to win a game on the road, what do you think? How many guys do you need to actually show up for? You need four guys on the road to legit show up. Yeah. They're going to need four guys who are making shots, I feel like. And so that means it's either you have to have Middleton, you have

to have some of Drew, you have to have some of Giannis. I need probably Lopez. And then I need somebody else to at least make a couple threes, which might be Connaughton. Connaughton, yeah. But that's one way. The other way would be if it's just a really ugly game. If it's like a 92-90, you figured out us, we figured out you, and this is going to be a rock fight, which I actually really think would benefit Milwaukee. Where do you think, out of those two scenarios, what's more realistic? I think the other thing they can do is go to go to Lopez a little bit more too I mean we've

I think it's something that a lot of people have talked about especially since they went to him after Giannis went down but this is kind of a series that's tailor-made for them to keep just pressing on uh on on on the front court pressure points yeah yeah yeah and they're getting I mean they're getting pressure points the perfect way to put it because I mean the Giannis wall it's kind of it's kind of like a Giannis piece of cardboard, really. It's not really a wall. And it's getting closer to going down every day. You've kind of seen a few of those guys, they've taken their hits.

And it's getting tougher and tougher. So, for me, I just think bring Lopez off the bench even at this point. Or if you don't want to make that big of an adjustment after a win, maybe do what you did in game one or game four where they took him out pretty much I think at the seven-minute mark. He wasn't having a great game, but he was taking a bunch of threes, which I get is that it's what he does. It's what he's been doing.

You can use him for other things. You can use him for other things. He can do both, especially with a second unit. You need a guy to show up at home. You said you're not going to be guaranteed to get Middleton to show up. Drew's been obviously very shaky on offense. And Brooke just feels like a guy that if you set him up right, I'm not going to say he's going to be a sure thing, but he's been in this league for a long time. He's not going to be scared. And if you get him going against some of the smaller guys, he's really strong and he has really great touch.

He can just shoot hooks over everybody in the second quarter if they end up beating that offense. I think that's something they should do. But I think, to your question, though, probably more likely to get a hot Connington game than to get an ugly Bucks game at home. I think the Suns can kind of go back to playing the beautiful game if they're at home. Yeah, and the only thing about Lopez is

if you put Lopez out there, I'm hunting him down. I'm hunting him down on mismatches. I'm going to make you pay for that if I'm the Suns. That's the one thing. But I will say this. That's why I like bringing him off the bench, though. Because I don't mind that either. Right. The other thing, though, that Lopez does for you, and it's what's happening bringing him off the bench, though. I don't mind that either. Right.

The other thing, though, that Lopez does for you, and it's what's happening in this series, too, all of a sudden, it's stating the obvious are the second-champ points. I mean, they're just overwhelming. My son, I watched the game with him the last game, and all he did was scream at the TV, well, somebody, anybody, box out. And he wasn't even rooting for the Suns.

He's just rooting for someone to make a simple, traditional, basic basketball play on the defensive end of the floor, which is like, when did boxing out become a lost art, for God's sakes? But that's what's happening too. Yeah, the Suns had a lot of unforced stuff. They were getting beaten off of their missed shots,

but they also weren't getting any second chance points either. And if you're not getting either of those, not great. And then how hard it was for them to score as soon as Booker was in any sort of foul trouble stuff. I just feel, I'm now ascending 35,000 feet above this series. And if you're going to tell me Chris Paul is actually hurt, I don't think Phoenix is good enough to win the NBA title with an injured Chris Paul.

Now, they only have to win two of the next three. But when you think like they only have a seven-man team at this point, seven and a half if you include Torrey Craig, but it's not like he's going to give them anything. It just seems like such a tall task when on top of it, from what we've seen from Giannis, where Russell and I talked about it last night, where he basically plays these three games in a row

that are all awesome for different reasons. Last night was his Larry Bird Jackie, you're covering him way back when Larry doesn't have his outside shot so he's going to go down and get 21 rebounds and just bang some bodies and get to the free throw line 14 times. And that's kind of what Giannis did. He's like,

I don't totally have it tonight. I'm a little tired but I'm going to set up other guys. I'm going to crash the boards. I'm going to play really good defense. I'm going to try to get 15 rebounds. And to me, it was like weirdly his greatest performance of the three games because I didn't feel like he had it.

What did you think? Well, the other thing is, the one thing you didn't mention is the eight assists. You know, I remember when Bud first took over as the Bucs coach. I said to him, you know, I was just shooting the breeze with him. It was an interview. And I'm just like, what's the most surprising thing about Giannis? He said, I had no idea for a guy who hasn't played very much basketball,

how good his court vision is, how well he can see passing lanes. You know, I don't have to tell him about double teams approaching and when to get rid of the ball, how he can see. You know, can don't have to tell him about double teams approaching and when to get rid of the ball, how he can see, you know, he's, can you remember some of the cross court, no look passes he's made to that corner that we were just talking about for the corner three. And that's the thing that Bud, you know, his first instinct, that was what surprised him the most. And ever since Bud said that, I watched Giannis exactly for that.

He had eight assists last night. And, you know, I remember early on in the playoffs, not even this series, all the pundits, a lot of guys are a lot smarter than me and have played the game more than at a higher level than me, kept saying he's too limited. He's too limited a superstar. He you know, this wall is going to work. There's only so much can do. You can't shoot free throws. I just think that's selling him short because of your point. There's many other ways he can affect change on the floor. You know, at one point in the game last night, I'm thinking,

Giannis, man, you better step it up. You haven't scored enough. Your team can't win if you don't score more. And I was wrong. Right. Well, yeah, I always would compare him to Shaq where he would that last four minutes of the game was always going to be the issue with him.

But I do feel like he's figured out some stuff the last couple of rounds, how to not totally be a liability in those last four minutes offensively because of the free throw shooting and the fact that he can't shoot from the outside. I've been really impressed. My ceiling for him, just in my head,

as I think of him against the other great players and all that I've definitely raised it a couple levels what about you Sarah yeah I think I think he's kind of what he's done this season is he's just kind of proven that there's other ways for him to win and he's figured out how to consistently do that like there used to be stretches and now these last few games I just feel like there's a consistent aggression that you see from him and he knows exactly where to be he knows who he can attack yeah uh game three just him being able to get Aiden into foul trouble uh and then Aiden was better better uh in game four but one of the first fouls he picked up

was just Giannis getting into his body and that's something that's actually like pretty difficult to do against Aiden because like that's that's just like how he doesn't foul it's and it's how he defends right that's why he doesn't block a lot of shots that's why everyone's like hey why is Drew Holiday missing all these layups it's like well because Aiton's kind of there and him kind of being there is how he plays defense so at first and I think that's still gonna be it's still gonna be tough for Giannis he's Aiton's pretty good at making him miss layups uh but he just keeps going and there's a lot of times where that just turns into something else good that happens like whether it's an offensive rebound or like he's had a couple just like passing the ball back and forth with Pat Connington or or with Portis or somebody else

where he's just kind of like taking the old coach's approach of like just get the ball near the rim and something good will happen and that's just like that's a credit to the Bucks too because they put a lot of pieces around him to, to allow that to happen. Like guys that box out really well, like PJ Tucker or, or Brooke Lopez. So yeah,

I think he's also just like going back to the block, he's figured out how to impact games defensively at that like prime Kawhi level where even though he might not be scoring that much, he can find a way to control a game defensively like he had after after the block which was obviously an incredible feat and also like I think pretty symbolic of the series and that like this is a pick and roll series and if you can solve it that way like then you're gonna be okay uh but I then then he had the uh the steal on on Chris Paul on the play after that.

And in between, there were two offensive rebounds that the Bucs got. And that's how they're winning this series. And honestly, I got to eat crow. Like, I, for one, am shocked. I thought we talked before the series, before the playoffs even started. My whole thing was like, look, this is a skilled league now. Like, it's just you're not going to get by with Drew Holiday's touch. You're not going to.

I mean, I probably should have given a little bit more credit to Middleton, but the Bucs have really kind of met this moment of really just crazy attrition and guys falling apart and, you know, being able to get through not making your shots. It's really interesting to see. It's like it kind of changes some of the conversations we were having before about the demise of defense. Yeah, I was thinking about the Giannis basketball IQ piece of this and how I think we overlooked the fact that, you know, he hasn't had a ton of

experience. It's not like a situation where Durant from age six is just playing in whatever the best D.C. six year old game is. And from that point on, he's just playing against the best people. And he's in all these different type of basketball situations. I think Giannis is still young as an actual basketball player in basketball situations. My favorite play that he made other than the block last night was Booker, the six foul, the famous six foul that thankfully we're not talking about today is like, oh my God, the Suns won because of that play. Um, Giannis never quit on the play. I think a lot of guys, their instinct would just be to stop when, when there's such an obvious foul like that.

But the fact that he came in and got that rebound, I thought was really impressive. But we taped, Rossell and I taped right after the game yesterday. So I watched the block in real time. It was amazing. I wasn't on Twitter. I wasn right after the game yesterday. So I watched the block in real time. It was amazing. I wasn't on Twitter. I wasn't seeing the slow motion stuff. And we knew it was a great play, but it didn't really until I was really going through

after we had finished and thinking like, holy shit, that was actually like one of the defining plays of the finals, period. They were both. Both of them were up here. Like if you look at the aerial, those guys were so far off the ground the camera work for everybody on that play was amazing but you know the funny thing about yannis is you talk about being young basketball i mean he's an infant in many ways you kevin durant was playing at six was playing with 10 year olds yeah right you know

yannis was playing with his brothers in the backyard in Greece somewhere where there probably wasn't even a net, you know? So I just, uh, I, you gotta give bud credit to there. If you talk about,

we always talk about pressure and how athletes handle pressure. You can't tell me there was 40, 50, 60, 70 times more pressure on the Milwaukee bucks, their coach, their GM and their players. And there was the Phoenix Suns,

who have been playing with house money since January. You know? So give them credit. Yeah, Giannis didn't start playing basketball until he was 13 years old. And he was playing in Sepolia, in gyms that weren't heated, that didn't have like the state of

art things that that players get in the u.s and he also on top of that grew a ton like if you look at some of if you go back and look at some of like the touch and the footwork that he was developing a lot of it has gone away and i suspect that a lot of that just has to do with the fact that the guy has put on i think like upwards of 50 pounds and grown five inches since being in the NBA. He has an all-new body while he's doing all of this. It kind of reminds me, I was reading old features about him, and the guy who got him to play basketball, he gave him a book by Maradona after Giannis quit a bunch of times.

And he read that book, and he kind of just realized all of the sort of cliche but very true things about success and failure and how you have to go through all these plateaus and if you quit, you're never going to make it and all that stuff. He's really carried that. He's carried that pretty much since that moment,

it feels like. It's so impressive when you see him get fouled intentionally and then just go go out and do it again like he doesn't care he's getting so much attention for being at the free throw line there has not been a player that has gotten this much attention for for dead ball time ever i think uh shack well since ben simmons but not on this stage i thought you guys going to give me a history lesson right now. And then all you had to do was go back like a month.

And Shaq. You know what's funny though, Sarah? It is generational because the first guy was Wilt. And it was a big storyline of Wilt's whole world. And then I don't really remember it happening in the 70s, 80s. I think it feels like Shaq was the next guy where it was just story after story being written about it. Him having coach, Rick Barry wanting to work with him. Underhand.

Yeah, all that stuff. So it's like in every 30 years. I want to keep talking about Giannis, but we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

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if you almost think of a player like a robot and they're just assembling data in their brain and you think they're a superior athlete, like the true greats, they're adding stuff and this can happen for real people, right? I think like writers peak when they're probably in their mid to late 30s.

That's when you really figure out like, it just stuff makes more sense. Siri, you got a way to go. God, I was like getting depressed. Does that mean I'm like 30 years past my peak? I'm telling you. I'm getting depressed, man. No, but like you hit a stage.

Jackie, your tools are well varnished. But Jackie, you know what I mean? You hit a stage where you go back and you look at your old stuff and you're like, oh man, I can't believe. I can't believe I wrote that lead paragraph. What was I doing? And the time you thought it was awesome.

But I wonder like with basketball players, you assemble information and you're getting better and better. And I guess my point is like with Giannis and the ceiling piece of this, I kind of thought he was a finished product. I just thought he was like a 29 and 12. This is who he is.

He was going to be frustrated in the games. He wasn't gonna be able to shoot. But now I'm wondering, is there like real greatness in here? Is this like the stuff that happened over the last month? Are we kind of entering this new vortex with him? And like, if you were starting a franchise right now, I wouldn't have picked him first. But from what I've seen this last month, now I'm thinking like, this might be the guy I would want for the next five years over anybody. What do you think of that? I do think there's some inherent limitations.

And maybe I think that because of the free throw shooting, which is maybe fair, maybe not. Not sure. I do wonder about and we can talk about this forever. And this is a history lesson, I guess. I've interviewed so many big men and they all talk about having the size of their hands and how much it really alters what they can do. And so I wonder if he's one of those guys. I don't know the answer. I think he works really hard at everything. Well, actually, Dwight Howard, don't laugh. Dwight Howard. I did a story on Dwight Howard once and I watched him in the gym.

I was waiting for him and he was shooting after practice and he was shooting perimeter shots all over the place. And I'm like, why don't you shoot those in a game? He's like, I'm afraid I'm going to miss him. I'm like, what? And he said, because I have to get it lined up just right. Otherwise, my hand's too big. I remember him telling me that. Now, Shaq used to say that. So Shaq claims the reason he was a bad free throw shooter is because he fell out of a tree and he broke both his wrists. That happened. Who knows if that's why?

He talks about the extension. But you've seen how big Shaq's hands are. I think sometimes it's just hard to get the right feel on the ball if your hands are big. I don't know. I'm just saying. I think Julia Serving just hard to get the right feel on the ball. If your hands are big, I don't know. I'm just saying. I think Julia serving was another one, right? Cause even though his hands were the biggest reason he was so great.

Cause he, the ball was like a grapefruit in his hand, but he also wasn't a reliable outside shooter. Everybody would just play off them and hope he missed. Right now. Kawhi Leonard has huge hands, right? Kawhi Leonard breaks this mold.

Yeah, but he's an alien. You can't compare him to humans. Okay. Fair enough. I don't know if he came from Earth. Sarah, what are your big hand theories? Actually, this is perfect. I'm actually

working on an article about this. You are not. Are you serious? My theory, yeah, about Giannis specifically. So with my theory with about it's generally about his growth physically um but if you look at the way his elbows poke out now right so you hold a basketball like this the way I was taught to shoot a basketball is like you put your thumbs in a way that they're like a t basically right like your guide hand at your left side and essentially janice's hands have gotten so big that there is just no space for him to like actually hold a basketball um and that's why

i think you see like the elbow come out so if you hold a ball and it's too big for you your elbow is naturally gonna like if you want to spread out your hands your elbow is naturally gonna come out a little bit um that said i do think that there is a little bit of just maybe like the soft biggest bigotry of low expectations going on with big men and shooting like these are problems, but they're problems that increasingly like there are ways to solve them. But yeah, it's essentially with Giannis. It's the same question to me. It's just about how much he can improve his touch. He has a bunch of things that like stereotypically are very difficult to come back from, whether it's like late start um just his height his hand size all of the growth he's had uh but at the same time like you can see that stuff as an advantage too if there's a solution uh because that just shows you his baseline is so low so it kind of you know shooting is you know it's like it's a very difficult code to crack uh but it might be possible for somebody like Giannis, especially like how

hard he works. It might be possible. So when you're doing this, this research on Giannis, and you said you mentioned some of the earlier clips you went back and looked at. Did you find this theme? I mean, I remember very early on, Bill, I'm sure you remember this too. One of the knocks on Giannis, which seems laughable now, was did he really have a good motor? I mean, that's pretty funny when you think about it now because his motor, to me, is like one of his greatest assets. But I remember very, very, very early when he first came into the league, people were wondering, yeah, but does he really work hard enough?

Does he play hard every minute of every game? And I wondered if you came across that when you were going through your research. Really? No, I didn if you came across that when you were going through your research. No, I didn't catch anything like that, but honestly, like I wasn't, I was looking more at, you know,

videos and stuff of him shooting than I was reading old stories. Um, yeah, no, what I found was just, I mean, his touch, anybody can go back and watch it.

His, uh, his shooting was just way better. At least like, at least in terms of how it looked. Um, the concerning thing is it stayed the exact same pretty much for his entire career and not just like from the three-point line obviously the free throw line has gotten worse but like if you kind of look at

his shot chart from literally everywhere other than the rim it's either stagnated or gotten worse and it's all kind of in like the low 30 area which is strangely tenable in the NBA finals right now. Well, I remember that draft, because I did that draft so we'd do all the research. He was only 6'9". You can't give anyone shit for missing on Giannis in that draft because nobody knew that he was going to grow three inches and become this monster.

The comparison was like, all right, what is this? You're just watching these dumb clips of him in these gyms. You don't even know who he's playing against, but you're like, all right, this is a six, nine athlete who seems really fluid. Is this Tracy McGrady? Is this like shorter Kevin Durant? Nobody was thinking of him as a dominant big man. It was all in your head. It's like Ford, which is back to Sirius point of like his shooting did look a little, little better. He wasn't the freak that he would become. I think what he's figured out, there's a regular season version of how he plays

where he's shooting more threes. He's trying to make it easier for himself. But then in the playoffs, when your bread's getting buttered and your team really needs shit to happen, he's just better around the rim. And his stop start, his second jump ability ability which i forget who coined that as a noun but it's a good noun but just his ability to just be around the rim quickly which peaked with the

eight and block um that's that's that's where ultimately like he's truly great and that was not there and in the 2014 draft there was no sign that he was going to become that guy. He's literally twice the size now. Right. And I think his first season also, that was not... You didn't see it either. His first season in the league. And I'm not... So, Jackie, why did people think that? I don't know. I think maybe it was because

maybe he was just tentative. If you're a new player, I mean, I remember Joel Abid talking to me about playing, you know, Luke Balmute, his fellow Cameroonian, is the one that got him to go to this camp and he was playing at it.

And he's looking at all these players around him and he's like, I don't belong here. So rather than screw up, I'm just not going to do anything to draw attention to myself. Does that make sense? So, so much of this game,

we forget these guys are, they're world-class superstars, but they have issues with confidence. I mean, Ben Simmons is again, is exhibit a, I think players lose confidence or gain confidence depending on what's going on in their trajectory.

And, you know, Yana so early on, you know, Jason kid, by all accounts, did some good work with him, spent their trajectory. And, you know, Giannis so early on, you know, Jason Kidd, by all accounts, did some good work with him, spent some time with him, got his confidence, got him, you know. So I just find it interesting.

Like, not every guy comes into the league like, well, Pascal Siakam, to me, is always the example, whose motor is just on, on, on. And then when he gets tired, you know, after a couple of years of that and your team is faltering and you're not playing for the championship and now all of a sudden everyone's like,

what happened to him? His motor's broken, you know? It's kind of a tricky, it's a tricky way to go through the league to have that to be your biggest asset. I gotta say, like, I always enjoyed Giannis, but I never, like like truly basketball loved him.

Right. I just had gained so much respect for that dude. Really since game five of the Brooklyn series. Right. Where you feel like they lose this game. It coach Bud's going to get fired. Um, the whole Giannis narrative of just like,

he's a Robin, not a Batman, all that shit starts. And maybe he should have been a free agent. Could have signed with Luca. Luca could have carried him, all that stuff. And the way he's responded to all that, the amount of pressure that he's had on him, which we've seen a lot of guys fold from over the years, especially once we get to this stage, we've seen guys crater. We've seen great, great, like Magic, who I think is the fifth best player ever. Like he fell apart in the 1984

finals, like literally fell apart to the point where we're like, does this guy, what happened to this guy? And the fact that Giannis not only fought through that, but then got injured and came back the way he did and was playing hurt and all the stuff he's navigated. I'm just wildly impressed. Like, I really hope that if Milwaukee ends up winning the title and then it's great for Mirren's book, obviously that would be the other, other benefit for us, but, um, cause we love Mirren, but, um, but I just think it's such a great story. This kid from, you know, this kid from Greece who comes in, who grows three inches, and then we kind of decide what he is. And then he's like, no, I'm actually not that I'm actually a little better than that. There's not a lot of other examples of this

in the history of the league of a guy going up a level when you kind of thought you had figured him out. How lucky we are that there will be a detailed telling of that story coming out very soon. Way to go, Mirren. Good job. All right.

Well, I'm excited to read that. Other example of late bloomer super duper stars that you can think of? Because he was already a superstar. He won two MVPs. But there's something, there's another level that he went to that I did not expect. Well, the stuff that impresses me the most is, I forget which game it was,

where they're showing him during a timeout and he's imploring his team on the sidelines. Like, come on. He's been a leader in every sense of the word. And today's superstars, think about the greatest players. They, I don't know, they're not like him. He keeps it all in-house. You know, if he has disappointments with his teammates, we never know about it. It's not leaked. It's not sourced. We never hear about it. All we hear about him, like him building up Drew Holiday before this last

game, like he is all, he's everything you would want in a leader, at least so far, you know, people through the years change and all that. But that's the thing that sticks out with me is that he, he has that locker room and it's really important that that's the case. And, you know, again, I'll go back to Joel and the crushing disappointment again for him and the Sixers and that post-game press conference. And, you know, the tire marks are still on Ben Simmons, you know?

Yeah. And I just don't see Giannis doing that kind of thing. And I think it's really to his credit. I really do. And I just, when you talk to his teammates, even before this year, before that, when they were losing, because that's really when you find out. His teammates were like, it's not him, man. It's us. We'll you find out his teammates were like it's not him man

it's us we'll figure this out we'll figure it out for him like he's the best thing that ever happened to any of us so that's the same thing that people say about Steph too like that's what Iguodala would say yeah right 100% yeah Steph Draymond he you know he he's the Draymond whisperer right you know

and and yeah well you know what else you know what else we saw that with Giannis and he didn't get credit for it because he didn't want it the Draymond whisper, right? You know? And, yeah. Well, you know what else? You know what else we saw that with Giannis? And he didn't get credit for it because he didn't want it. But last year in the bubble, when one of his teammates

didn't want to play, and then Giannis was like, none of us are playing. And the Bucs, that was it. But it was Giannis was the guy that pushed that to another level and really got everything going.

But that was when, when I heard that story, I was like, oh, he's actually like really the leader of the team. I didn't know, because sometimes these teams can have like the best player as the quote unquote leader,

but they're not really, you know, they're not, they're just the best player. Well, we know that with the Nets, right? We know that the leader of that team, as crazy as it sounds, was actually James Harden, right? As crazy as that sounds.

Because that does sound a little crazy based on what happened at the end in Houston. But your point is a good one. George Hill was the one that was distraught over that. Giannis. And the other thing about that that I liked, Giannis said, yeah, if you're not playing, we're not playing. We support you.

Sterling Brown was involved. Those were the guys that really were vocal in that meeting. But the thing about that that was so cool to me, it's almost like someone forgot to tell them NBA protocol. They didn't tell their owner. They didn't tell the league office. They just said, hey, here's LeBron. They didn't tell LeBron.

They didn't tell anybody, man. They're like, we're voting as a team not to play in this game, and you all can do whatever you're going to do next. Ed, I thought that was the coolest part about it. That's actually very on brand for a Giannis-led team to just make a decision and then radio silence. Have you guys been watching the

press conferences with Giannis after the game? No. What are they like? He's incredible. First of all, you can tell that he is not recovered from the adrenaline rush of the game itself. He's super amped up. He goes out of his way to really try to explain what he's asked.

You should watch yesterday. It was actually like... He was in his bag. He had all the kind of different Giannis things that you like in a press conference. He started it off by just being asked about the the lob and he spent like a good two minutes explaining like he said he didn't like he didn't see it actually being a lob that he was going to you know trying to just get to the other side of the rim and he kind of explains all of his thought process on that uh and what he said about middleton so sometimes like he'll just like have

these moments where he'll just like get really deep and stoic and like then he'll just like say something really serious so this is like what he said about middleton and this is i'm paraphrasing i had it down on my notes yesterday uh but somebody asked him about like when he wanted to play like when he knew he wanted to play with middleton he said it was the playoffs against toronto we were back at home he wasn't feeling great but he played the game and he gave gave everything for the team for us and I realized this is the guy I want to be aligned with, that I want to go through the journey with. That's the dude I want to build a legacy with and just be with him, be a part of his own journey.

He can be a part of my journey and do this together. And he has had moments like that throughout the playoffs. That's just one from yesterday. But the way that he talks about his teammates, the reverence he has for them is incredible. And he's also just like like he's relentlessly positive you can't fuck with him like you just can't like the guy the guy has an entire arena you know yelling at him counting counting down the free throws and he's just like yeah i gotta just try to find a way to make it fun and he's right that is the attitude you should have but like that is so much more easier said than than done it's just like it's just incredible it's like i don't know he's

like i mean no nobody is invincible emotionally but he's like i don't know he's special like the leadership and the pressure together it's just it's it's super i don't know it's inspiring i wonder how much of that has to do with that. He's not the conventional American superstar on social media all the time. Always aware of what everyone is saying and always just kind of receiving information constantly. It seems like he's like out of the 1970s or something. Yeah. He obviously grew up differently, right? Yeah.

Like in a lot of different ways. Yeah. But so did Joel Embiid, right? obviously differently right yeah like in in a lot of in a lot of different ways um yeah but but so did joel and bead right so joel and b grew up in cameroon and then he did go to high school in florida i guess and um did end up playing a year at kansas but but like joel and bead does anybody um dominate also well i guess he doesn't so much anymore but you know what i mean like joel he came from a different place too i think it's more just the individual personality ianis i really do yeah that's true but i also i also think that there's like there's kind of something to when like you know your personality kind of comes out a different way

um when you move to a different country too and like the kind of different tools that you have to navigate that like with with mb i think the thing that was like that makes him kind of like the ultimate immigrant story is that he is just like the master imitator of all things like he can just he he obviously picked up on the language really quickly but like the thing that he he did which like i know from like people around me is very difficult to do is actually like picking up like the humor um being able to like be sarcastic immediately being able to like be sarcastic immediately being able to troll um and then like and then which well like that's kind of the same thing on the court too right like he is like the master of just like you know

he he got better very quickly because he could just watch things and and do them and he obviously worked very hard at the same time but like there's just that like improvement ability that he had like i think he could kind of like just integrate himself in a different way and i don't know maybe yannis didn't necessarily want that like he seems so much more just like about his family that's why i'm actually like i plug it again i'm really excited to read mirren's book and actually learn more about the guy because like i really feel like as a result of all this stuff that we're talking about you're more fascinated by him yeah and we don't really know a lot about him

as a person other than the fact that he is like family oriented loyal and dedicated but there isn't you know I don't why is Giannis the way that he is like that's just a story that like because of all this stuff because we haven't known him forever we just don't know yeah Jokic reminds

me of Jokic in that regard yeah how much do you know about Jokic you know and that guy's been unbelievable he was the you know this this MVP and I mean when he kept saying you know I I think that's nice like I really don't know if he really cared the way somebody here who grew up in the U.S. and played AU and talked about it all the time I don't know maybe there is something yeah yeah I mean I guess there's like these pillars right like you grow up with the idea. I don't know. Maybe there is something to that. Yeah. I guess there's like these pillars, right? Like you grow up with the idea. Like I can kind of see it with, you know, the way that, for example, prom, right?

Canadians, we don't have prom. Don't care about prom. Don't know what it is. Like we know what it is. It's on high school. You're so lucky. It's on high school. So lucky.

Huge win for you. TV shows and stuff, right? Yeah. Huge win. But like for a high school athlete, like, you know, like making the all-star team, making the All-Star team, making the All-NBA team, all these individual accolades, MVPs,

and then even on the smaller level, McDonald's All-American, and just getting invited to this tournament and that tournament, and who are you competing against? And you've got these probably grudges that you've built from a very young age, and those are like, I mean, it's just different. You're like, you've been part of the culture.

You're just way more influenced by it, I mean, it's just different. You're like, you've been part of the culture. You're just way more influenced by it. I think it's just only natural. Obviously there are exceptions to that, as you said, Jackie, but it's just like that. The environment, I think, just would naturally have it have its toll on anybody, right? Like just, he didn't grow up with those flagpoles of like, this is what I'm going to, you know, be when I grow up. You know what it reminds me of, Jackie? When we finally had a Red Sox team that had the stones to fend off the curse and win the World Series. And they were lovingly called the idiots. And it was either these guys that were just immune to everything because they were all lunatics or guys not born in America who could like Manny Ramirez didn't care what a curse

was. He's not from here. He's like, Dave Ortiz, same thing. And we had all these guys that just, you know, the 86 team, which came within one strike of winning the world series 13 times. It had like, the catcher was from Worcester. Like he got it. He understood the matter.

Boy, did he get it? Yeah. And I wonder like, Giannis is like, these are moments where the player that grew up here and watched the finals his whole life would be like, oh my God, we're about to choke against the Nets and they don't have Kyrie and they have Harden on one leg and I can't believe it. And you're just thinking about it for two days. The stuff, the way stuff's bounced off him has been amazing. Like the free throw thing, like his attitude about being a relatively shitty free thrower, but yet being able to make 13 to 17 in a finals game.

I don't know. I admire a lot about the guy. He's really won me over the last couple of months. Yeah. You just hope he doesn't get spoiled, right? You just hope, hope,

hope he doesn't get spoiled because you remember so many of these guys when they first come into the league and how young they are and how wide they are and how much, how joyful they are and how much fun they they are and how much, how joyful they are and how much fun they are to talk with. And then success happens. And then more importantly, disappointment happens

because that's when they get jaded because why don't they love me all the time? And that's all, you know, and that's the thing about Giannis. It's pretty cool. There's been a lot of disappointment early on here and a lot of questioning.

And, and that rolls off his back too. The opposite end of that with similar results is Devin Booker, right? Like guy who has been steeped in NBA culture pretty much like from the moment he was born. It's like not only like the unique thing about Booker is not only that did he love playing basketball, but he also loved basketball history and like really cared about who was in the NBA and like who how they navigated it and he's talked about things like you know studying the playoffs and stuff um and ironically with him I feel like the knowledge of all of that has actually helped him like I think we've all talked about how he's not surprised by anything right like he just for a guy in his first playoffs like I don't know you guys have

obviously been around have you seen anybody go from like being on a team that just didn't really do much of anything to making his first playoffs to being in the finals and like being this this poised I don't really think I've seen it before and I think it's like he said something like after after they beat the Lakers in six that that they didn't want it to go to seven because he studied before and he knows what happens when you go to seven. And obviously, anything can happen in a game seven. But yeah, there's just a lot of moments in these playoffs where it feels like he's been there before, but it's by being aware of other people's stories.

Yeah. I want to keep that point, but we got to take a quick break. But I want to talk more about Booker. Jackie, Booker was one of those guys that even when he was a young pup, the other players seemed to know that he had it. Right. Which I always enjoy.

They can kind of sniff them out. It's like the chefs. Tatum's one of those. Tatum's another one. Yeah. It's like, it's like when the chefs know who the other up and coming chefs are. They just kind of have a sense for it. Um, I thought the shot making, Russell and I talked about it last night. The, the array of shots that he was making last night, um, was really unique. And the guy I was bringing up was Andrew Tony, where it wasn't not a lot of threes, right? But it was just this array and you spread the floor a little bit for him. You could put any type of guy on him and he's just getting the shot he wants. And it's so rare to see two guards like that. We have to say Jordan and Kobe and you know,

there's a couple other, but the list is, I actually made the list last night and it was less than 10. I did not think, I did not think he would get there immediately. I'm a seer. And I thought usually you have to have the taste. You get your feet wet.

You win a series. But maybe, I don't know, maybe this is just how basketball is now where you have Trey Young in the conference finals with his first taste and Booker all of a sudden turning into Andrew Toney. They just sped up now. I don't get it.

What do you think about that? Yeah, there's just no time anymore, right? And the one thing these kids all grew up learning is, and we referenced it a little bit, I think, is just a positive self-talk. Like Trey Young, you mentioned Trey Young. He walked into the gym every day convinced he was the best player,

even when he wasn't most of the time. When he was a little kid, he's playing with high school kids. You know, he met Kevin Durant because he lived in Oklahoma and his dad arranged him to meet Kevin Durant. And Kevin Durant's like, oh, this is a nice little kid. I'm going to work out with him or whatever. And Trey Young was trying to destroy him. Now he couldn't.

He wasn't good enough, but he thought he was. That's what mattered. And I think Devin Booker's got a little bit of that in him. And I'm sure he had plenty of conversations with Kobe about that because we know that Kobe was like that. People always forget rookie Kobe really wasn't that successful. His teammates didn't believe in him. He took too many shots. You know, he wasn't there yet, but he thought he was there.

And you weren't going to tell him differently. And I think that there's a little bit of that in Devin Booker. And I mean that in the most positive sense, that positive self-talk. And, yeah, I can miss a lot of shots, but I can come back in the next quarter. Never mind the next day. I'll come back in the next quarter and I'm going to forget all of that. Because that's what the great shooters do. The great scorers don't remember what happened five minutes ago. They don't remember how many shots they missed. It's irrelevant to them. And I think that's what Devin Booker's like. I

think Bradley Beal is like that. I think there's other players like that too. Well, I remember when you wrote Be Legendary on Syrit's laptop a couple of years ago, that meant a ton to her and really changed the course of her career. What are you talking about? Yeah, I have the positive self-talk in the background right here. That's good. There is a lot of like, I have noticed a lot of Kobe stuff, like the effect that he had on this generation of players, which obviously the media is playing up as much as they possibly can. But at the same time, it's a real thing. There's this entire generation of guys that really did seem like that was their guy.

And I think I underestimated that in the moment, that the kind of stranglehold that he had over all of these guys that came up right after him. Because you would have thought LeBron was the guy, but it really did seem like Kobe was the guy for anyone, what, 22 to 32? Right. Well, he was holding these invitational camps, the Kobe

camps. I mean, he would call, you'd get a call, you know, like Jamal Murray's working out in Kitchener, Ontario one day. And he gets this phone call from Phil Handy, you know, who was an assistant with the Cleveland. He's been everywhere with the Lakers. And he said, hey, do you want to go do this thing with Kobe? And of course you say yes to that. And Devin Booker was there, pretty sure, same year. And so he'd have these invitational camps and these guys would show up and he'd put them through drills and stuff,

but he'd also put them through business classes and media consulting classes. He'd have actual media members go there on the sly and tell them what kind of tricks to look for. So Kobe was grooming these guys to be the next Kobes. And he was invested in that because, I really believe, because nobody would do that for Kobe when he started. All they did was make fun of him. He's on a team with these older guys, Brian Shaw, of course Shaq, some other guys on that team.

Rick Fox. And they're like, hey, kid, you don't get it. You know, one of the stories that I think it was Shaq that told me they used to rap on the bus. And Shaq, of course, was a platinum rapper. We can debate whether he deserved to be. He was. And so he'd be rapping on the bus and Kobe just be sitting and listening. Then someone else would give you a rap about a boat and then someone would start rapping. And then Kobe comes back, you know, a week later and they're rapping on the bus

and Kobe has this perfect rap that he starts doing, you know, and all the words rhyme and they're all like, yo kid, that's not how we do it here. You don't go home and practice. And he's going, no, no, it's off the dome. It's off the dome. And they're like, yeah, no, no, no. So like this kid was constantly trying to fit in but he was 17 18 years old with all these guys that were in their 20s he couldn't go drink with them he couldn't go party with them and i don't think they kobe was that big on that anyway and you know some of them were married with families or had you know multiple girlfriends or whatever and kobe just couldn't find his way and i think when he retired and started looking

about the league and paying it forward i think he he decided, you know, I'm going to I'm going to give these guys a pathway that I didn't have. I'm going to show them how it's done. I'm going to give them all my secrets. I'm going to tell them all my secrets. The two Olympic teams, I think, were helped, too, because he was playing with all these guys who were in their formative making the leap moment of their careers. And he was like the old guy. But what are we gonna say sarah i just think i just think that's a really good point because like i've been i've been kind

of thinking about why it is that kobe seems to appeal to to so many of these young players um and i think that like obviously there were other great players at the time right like you know if you're if you're my age you're probably rooting for LeBron or Kobe at some point and I think like the thing that appeals to like elite athletes about a guy like Kobe is exactly that it's just like his willingness to let you in on on this journey because like I think if you're that driven and you do something that is in the public eye and as unique as the NBA is like, it just has to be an incredibly lonely existence. Like even,

even among your peer group, like you'll hear NBA players say that like no one else really understands them. And then I think if you're even on that higher echelon or that, if that's a place that you want to get to, like being able to have somebody that's actually been able, been willing to share their story about it, like, that just, I mean, that just has to be really big when you are probably just not,

you're probably just not getting that anywhere else. Do you? Sorry, I'm a little bit distracted because I'm watching Andrew Toney highlights. Oh, Jesus. He puts up 39 points and six assists on the Celtics in the 1982 playoffs. That's actually the first, I wasn't 1982 playoffs. That's actually the first. I wasn't trolling. That's actually the first one that came up.

Well, of course. So, you know, Andrew Toney, it's a sad story. He was amazing. He was lethal, deadly. And then he had some injuries and he had some foot problems. And the Sixers kind of didn't believe him. And so his career just sort of came to a very sad close because he was hurt and they didn't believe he was hurt and they wanted him to play.

And it just ended so sadly. Well, his career is basically like if Devin Booker's career was over a year from now. You're like, wow, what happened? Devin Booker's career is over? He was the go-to scorer on a team that had Moses, Barkley, and Doc. And he was the guy they went to in the last

five minutes. And then he had foot problems and that was it. But it was like a six-year run. So sad. I mean, he got the nickname of a famous murderer in Boston. That was how good he was. Salvatore. What's his name? Something Salvatore. The Boston Strangler. I can't remember.

But anyway. Yeah, I actually did a story with Andrew Toney at the end. I pursued it for several years because I was a very young writer when he started, when that was happening. I joined the Globe in 1982. I was watching this going, wow. And then, like you said, in an instant, he was gone. And I kept thinking, what happened? Where is he? And I used to ask Barkley about it because Barkley loved him. And Barkley stuck up for him. Barkley said, no, you've got to understand. This is real.

He's really hurt. You know, this is crazy. And anyway, I did finally track him down. It took me a while. I think Barkley put in a word for me. But I don't know if you can ever find it. But I did a story with Andrew Toney. It was one of the saddest stories I ever wrote.

Oh, really? Because of how the Sixdest stories I ever wrote. Oh, really? Because of how the Sixers really let him down. Yeah, the Sixers really let him down, man. They really let him down. The organization, not the players. The organization. Sarah, quick, boring backstory. The Celtics come back from 3-1 in the 81 Eastern Finals,

which is probably the greatest series of all time. Come back, they win game five. He's not biased, Sarah. I'm not biased at all. Five, six, and seven They all come back From big leads Game six turns

Because Maxwell fights The Sixer And the Sixer fan In the stand Like it's just amazing Get sued Get sued Yeah

A year later 1982 Same scenario They're up 3-1 We win five We win six Game seven is back In Boston

People are dressed Like ghosts Everyone's like We we're going, we're going to play the Lakers in the finals. It's fine. And then Tony murders everybody. He murders the Celtics. He murders the crowd.

It's just, he completely demolished us and Philly wins. It goes to the finals. So that's how, but it was like watching Booker last night where these guys that can, and it's, I'm telling you, it's a list less than 10.

These guys that can get in the zone, I'm telling you, it's a list less than 10, these guys that can get in the zone at that position. And you're just helpless. Holiday was all over him on some of those plays. It didn't matter at all. It was crazy. Vinnie Johnson. Vinnie Johnson's the other one. Vinnie Johnson could do it. Not for the same, not with the same regularity, but he was pretty awesome too. And his nickname was the microwave. He was unbelievable also, because he could heat up so fast off the, so he was on all, too. And his nickname was the Microwave. He was unbelievable also because he could heat up so fast. So he was on all those great business teams. But Booker is more talented than both of those guys.

Although, I mean, maybe we'll never know about Andrew Toney. But Booker is so clever in the way he does things. And that's why I feel like I'm coming back around to Chris Paul again. Because the one thing Chris Paul was doing up until all these injuries he had guys on skates he was handling the ball in such a way he was starting pulling it back and guys were flopping all over the place and he was getting the separation he needed to hit a jump an open jump shot watch him now he can't do it right now now I don't know why that is it's I hate to not give Drew Holiday all the credit in the world because as great as he was on Chris Paul,

then when Devin Booker got hot, he switched on to Devin Booker and did a really good job on him too. And by the way, can I just point out what a good job Devin Booker is doing defensively, which gets lost in all this sauce. He's been very good defensively. Go back and watch a little bit.

I mean, yeah, they gave him eight fouls. Yeah, when you have eight fouls, you can really work a lot of magic. Siri, this is a weird series. Game five, Saturday night is weird. Just has that sense of like, there's going to be some strange hero, right? Like where we had like, I don't know,

Spurs-Pistons in 05 that became the Robert Horry game. Sometimes this will happen in game five. So it will be one of the guys who's not the best player in the game. Who would be your pick if you could pick a rando and it's not Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Middleton, Halladay, or Giannis? Out of everybody left on the table, is there a rando hero for game five that you could see? So, I mean, the Suns have a bunch of candidates that go from pretty much every

every good role player they have I don't even know if you want to call these guys role players but in the same way that Lopez needs to be unlocked like let's let's get eaten some looks one thing on the shot charts because you mentioned them earlier I was looking through them and I was just kind of wondering how there was ever going to be a way out for Phoenix because they shot 54% for mid-range yesterday and they only got 18% of their shots at the rim. The Bucks got 38% of their shots at the rim and they were cold from the three-point line. That's untenable in terms of just obviously if you get outshot by 15 which is what ended up happening that skews things a little bit but But yeah, that's just not tenable. Like they need to get easy baskets.

I think like just going to not just the Aiton pick and roll, because I think like it's like what Chris Paul said, like there's only so many ways that you can do a pick and roll. I feel like there are only so many ways that they can be defended too. And I think Giannis is starting to figure out all of the different ways that they run pick and rolls with Aiton and I think that they need to get him going a little bit more in the post and I

think you can do that with honestly kind of everybody down the line with the Suns especially if they head back onto the road again obviously we're not talking about that game but yeah I think I think the Suns have a ton of candidates but I'm going to go with Aiton because he's probably the best player

out of the guys that I'm allowed to pick. And he's also the one most due for a really obvious explosion that just hasn't happened yet because of the way that the Suns play. What do you think, Jackie? So I think there are more candidates for what you're asking on the Suns

than there are on the Bucs because Connaughton has had... I thought Connaughton was great last night. He made some really great plays. But his huge is whatever he had, eight points, nine rebounds. I don't know. I don't have it in front of me. So I'm going to go a little different here. And I'm going to say that Monte Williams understands that Cameron Payne needs more minutes.

And that Cameron Payne can get some shots off and can score in transition. And you're going to have to take away some minutes from Chris Paul if he continues to struggle. So I guess in a lot of ways, I'm predicting that Chris Paul is going to continue to struggle and that Monty's going to look at Cameron Payne and say, okay, we're going to give you a shot at this.

I like that one. I think Cameron Payne has it in him too. I'm going with Lopez because I still feel like it's a seven game series. Maybe you want to try different things, show some different looks. But he's one that I feel like they can steal for a six

minute stretch where he can score like 12 points in six minutes, something like that. Especially get 2008 and whatever. If you're talking about the top five guys, I, Drew will do this twice a series where he'll just have a really awesome two way game. I don't know if he could do it on the road, but you know, I think about that game. He played the game six, he had against Atlanta where he was just electric on both sides, right? He was just really, really great and really ate up the Hawks. I do think he has that in him

and he's coming off a four for 20. He said three days to think about it. And I don't know that I could see him, you know, if you're going to be like, who do we name this game after, after it's over? I could see it being the Drew Holiday game. That would be my dark horse for out of the top five. But isn't that a lot to ask when you're asking him to guard Chris Paul and guard Devin Booker

the minute Devin Booker gets too hot for anybody else to guard? Maybe. If I'm the Bucs, I'll take Drew Holiday's two-way defense on the two best players the Suns have. And if you can score me some points, I would really appreciate that. But I'm pretty sure I can get that other places. I'd like the shots he had. He was four for 20,

but I kind of liked all the shots he took. He just, they were going sideways. Don't you feel like, but don't you feel when he's taking them sometimes, he's like, I hope it goes in instead of like Devin Booker was like, give me this motherfucker. It's going in, you know?

Right. Like, I always feel like Drew's like, oh man, I hope it's going in. Because when you hope it's going in, you've already dropped your percentages down. It's like 30% less of a chance it goes in. If you think it's going in. Drew also, he puts himself in a position where, unlike Middleton, I feel like Middleton, like Booker, like Chris Paul,

knows where his spots are on pick and roll. And I think Drew is kind of taking what the defense gives him. And I think that just puts the Suns defense, especially Aiton. But, I mean, they're all kind of conservative and deceptive. They want you to take low percentage shots, so they're going to try to goad you into those. And with drew going the route of okay let's he's kind of just seeing how much closer he can get to the rim essentially

and that's just a great way to miss layups over deandre ayton like essentially that's kind of that's kind of what's been happening to him all series as opposed to like you know middleton just being a little bit more methodical but i agree with jackie honestly i just think he's doing a lot this is seven this is going to go six at least. It might go seven. I think you want to use him to just try to wear down Chris Paul and Booker and whatever you can get from him, like consider it a bonus. But honestly, like it's like what you said, Jackie,

like when you have that type of mentality or shooting stroke or whatever you want to call it, maybe it's just a moment of self-doubt, like whatever it it is you can't guarantee that that guy is always going to be consistent like I don't really necessarily like want to be running that much stuff for him um honestly I would lean even if you need to I'd lean even more heavily on Middleton and pick and roll like I feel like that's a big reason they also didn't turn the ball over very much um he was just he was just really good at it um so yeah I think I don't know i just i just feel like drew holiday deserves a bit of a defense i get that he's not shooting well and everybody is

kind of focused on that but it's just he's doing so much like full court press in the nba finals for a whole game like just try like you know try squatting down that low for like for like five seconds you know like for me five seconds but you know? For me, five seconds. But it's just, yeah, it's really incredible. And he's also, he's creating a ton of points with his steals. He's creating good offense for them. It's just not in the way that Chris Paul or Booker or Middleton does. It sounds like Syrett still has him in line for finals MVP,

potentially, with two big games. Maybe sneak. He was 9-1 before the finals, line for finals MVP potentially with two big games. Maybe sneak. I had a, he was nine to one before the finals, but it does seem like it's Giannis or Booker now the way this series is playing out. Those would be your two candidates. Hey, you know how some folks are quick to doubt the rookies or even understate their excellence during playoff season? Make no mistake. This is their time to shine and show out with career defining moments on that court. Here's a famous one. I'm going to go way back for you. Thinking about overlooked rookies.

Tommy Heinsohn, who passed away recently, legendary Celtics announcer, Hall of Famer, really great underrated player. But as a rookie, 1957 Celtics, the Celtics had never won the title. It goes to a game seven against the St. Louis Hawks. Bob Cousy's terrible. Bob Cousy goes two for 20. Can't make a shot. You got Bill Russell. He's a rookie. Not totally an offensive player.

He only scores 19. They need a hero. And who's the hero? Holy Cross's own Tommy Heinsohn, rookie. Puts up 37 points and 23 rebounds, 17 for 33. Was awesome. And then fouls out in double OT. What happens in this game?

Goes to double OT. Heinsohn fouls out. Famous shot of him crying on the sidelines. Can't believe he fouled out, but the Celtics end up winning the game in the last minute. They win by two. He gets carried off the court. There's a famous photo of him, all these people surrounding him. It's one of the great rookie moments of all times in the finals.

You heard about magic in 1980. You've heard about some other ones, but I think that was the first great one. And that's a wrap. Just like these rookies, like Tommy Heights had won on the court. You can win with your insurance by getting the personalized service of a local agent all for a surprisingly great rate with State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

All right. We're going to go soon. So let's do predictions. So we have game five Saturday in Phoenix. We have game six Tuesday in Milwaukee. And then game seven two days later in Phoenix. I've been thinking about this a lot. And I think Milwaukee is going to win in six.

I can't put my finger on it. It's this weird gut basketball, having watched a lot of playoffs in my life. They just seem like the more athletic, the more options that the game gets ugly. They have two guys that I trust to at least be able to create offense for themselves or somebody else. And the Chris Paul thing, I just don't see him miraculously looking awesome for game five. I think there's, this is real wear and tear stuff for a guy who's 37 years old, who's played, you know, two seasons in the course of a year and a half, who was playing 37, 38 minutes a game the last few rounds, who was carrying a big burden and has multiple injuries. It's not like it's like,

you know, oh, my hammy is a little tight. It seems like he's got a hand thing. I think he's got leg stuff. I don't think he's got that shoulder thing. I just don't think he looked like the same guy remotely. I know what Holiday was doing for him. But as you said, he had people on a yo-yo, Jackie, and it just doesn't seem like he's that guy anymore. And I don't see it coming back in 72 hours. I agree. I agree. So Milwaukee is my pick.

What do you have? I've changed my mind. I also pick Milwaukee. And again, because it just Chris Paul, when like, do you remember the last time he's had a layup? You know, not what he does best anyway at this point of his career, but penetration. There's a lot. And I want to pick on Chris Paul because the only reason the Suns are here is because of Chris Paul. Yeah. Make that very, very, very clear. It's just I think, as you say, he's dealing with a lot.

And I also think. And because we have covered a lot of these, you also sense a moment when a player is about to separate himself from everybody else. And that's what's happening with Giannis right now. He is entering that stratosphere of not just great NBA players, but NBA icons. You know, Jabbar and Oscar were watching the game the other night, and it's like,

here you go, son. We got a seat right here for you at the table. We're just waiting for you. That's what it feels like to me. That's how I feel as well. What do you think, Sarah? I'm hanging on just barely to my sons in seven pick.

I thought about this for a while and I think going back and looking at a little bit of game one and two um there are there is a progressive solving that milwaukee has done of of the sun's offense but at the same time there there were moments in game game one and two that resembled the opposite of what we saw in the last two games and i think both of these teams they're at home, they can just make the other team look horrible, honestly. It's kind of like... Yeah, they can.

Have you guys seen The Office? Yes. Yeah, are you kidding? Okay, just making sure. So do you remember the stress relief episode where Dwight creates a fake fire so that he can do a fire drill and then Stanley ends up having a heart attack it's like the best it's like the best stretch of comedy television ever but like I was I was watching I was watching it after one of the games and it just

like I felt like there was a similarity there with like the way that the Bucks pile on on defense and the way that the Suns pile on on offense, like when they're in their half court, like obviously there is a game to play with like 11 passes, but basically there's just like, it almost gets like a little bit extra where they're just like, they're just trying to overwhelm everyone else. Like where, you know, I remember like Dwight, you know, first he, first he gets it going, then he rings a fire alarm, then he starts yelling and shouting and like everything is bad.

And then he's still, he's still following everybody around and saying like, you remember your exit points like oh make sure you don't touch the touch the handle like he keeps upping the ante when even though it is very clear that the people involved are already appropriately frazzled at this point like you can you can take it to the cup doy but like that that that is essentially like both these teams do that to each other um and i think i i don't think the Suns like these teams now know each other well enough that they probably it probably won't be like that again, at least consistently. But I just I just don't really necessarily trust the Bucs defense to travel the way that the way that I played it at home. So I'm taking the Suns and Suns and seven and taking game five.

Suns and seven. That was a plan. It's not a bad pick. I'll tell you, one thing about the Suns that I just keep seeing over and over, even when they lose,

they're still pretty cohesive, right? They all kind of have, they know what to do. And all these young guys, Bridges, and I know Bridges hasn't, you know, hasn't played well since his big game.

But Cam Johnson, Cameron Payne, all these guys, they just, they know what to do. They know where to be. They play well together. That's the only thing about the Bucs that would give me a little pause

is sometimes you watch them and you're like, these parts don't fit the way the Suns parts fit. That's the only reason I would give the Suns hope. I've thought about that in two different ways, I guess. After game one, monty williams said something along the lines of like you know we studied how the bucks played after they lost game one against the hawks and like we kind of knew the physicality would be coming we knew that yannis would be coming at us hard that they'd be crashing the boards and like we knew we had to

weather the storm essentially the defense would be tighter and all the other things that we saw, which to me that suggests that they probably studied the Nets series. And this, the last two games for the Bucs have played out exactly like the Nets series has almost. With the game three was just like, it was amazing how much congruency there was. There was Chris Middleton getting going early just by getting him touches. There was Giannis just having an incredible performance and Bobby Portis even getting off like I think the Drew Holiday third quarter like a lot a lot of different things a lot of adjustments that Bud made too um which is to say like I totally believe that the Suns were prepared uh but the Bucks did it. So that's kind of like

the line I'm at right now. Is it like... Not a good sign. Yeah, for Phoenix. Maybe, maybe, but it can also speak to like they'll be ready for stuff in the future as well.

So you just, I don't know, it's hard to look at this stuff in the middle of a series and really you can't like draw definitive conclusions a lot of the times about what it means. Well, you figure

the two things Phoenix are going to have to address, and I'm sure these will be the two things they work on, is no fast break points off of their misses. They're going to shut that down, even if they have to give up offensive rebounds. Everybody gets back. Nobody beats us down court. It would be one. And then the other thing is, how do we get more corner threes? Because that's our bread and butter and Milwaukee is taking that away. So how do we get that back? I think if Phoenix wins my, my non hero guy to watch would be Cam Johnson. Cause I feel like he's very close to having like a Cam Johnson game where he

just has like 30 points and hit seven threes and does, it seems pretty fearless athletically. That's the kind of guy you want as the finals. What happens the longer the finals goes, it just gets more and more tense. The games get uglier and uglier. They're less well played. And you kind of have these one or two random guys who just aren't afraid of it. And I think he's their guy for that. Um, I don't know if he'll do it, but that would be the guy I picked pick. The other thing is, don't forget about the turnovers. If the Suns want to win, they have to be in single digits in turnovers.

They just do, and they haven't been. That's the only way to prevent those layups, too. What are you going to do when Drew Holiday has a running start because you just spoke the ball out of your hands? That's not where you're playing any defense. In Game 1, the reason the Suns won so easy, everyone's like, well, the Bucs didn't have any transition points

because the Suns didn't miss any shots. It's kind of hard to run off made shots. Before we go, do we have a Ben Simmons destination yet, Jackie? Oh, deep breath. I'm already excited. This is great. No, because I just just you know, I know Daryl and I know he's looking for the best

possible guy. So he's probably called Portland 14 times already because he wants Lillard. You just know he does. I'm not speaking. I haven't talked to Daryl about this at all. It's just me being a pop psychologist. So does that make sense? I've seen the Sacramento stuff.

It makes sense for a team that's not in a big market to take on Ben Simmons in that contract right that makes some sense so that's why you hear Minnesota Sacramento all those teams that makes some sense but wouldn't it be just sexy and crazy if Dame Lillard ended up in Philly I would love Well, how would you feel if you were a Portland fan, though? You'd be like, really? We got the guy who just went 25 for 74 and free throws in the playoffs? Well, you'd have to.

Yeah, and the problem is, I don't know what this, and I should know this, I don't know what the Sixers have in terms of picks. I think they're out of picks, right? Aren't the Sixers low on picks? No, they have some.

They have a couple. So maybe you have to throw in someone like Maxie or Matisse Theibel or something like that to make it happen. What I've heard is that Darryl has been... Darryl's been... Obviously, he calls everybody and pretends he's calling about somebody else and then it steers to Simmons. But I think he's just going around asking for the best player on everyone's team.

Of course, I would. And then he's going to circle back and then it'll get realistic. But for now, it's you go around and you... Would you take De'Aaron Fox for Ben Simmons? I mean, I would. I would do it

if I was Philly in two seconds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I would do that if I was the Kings, though. I wouldn't either. I wouldn't either. I'd just bring up De'Aaron Fox, but De'Aaron Fox has some of I was the Kings, though. I wouldn't either. I wouldn't either. I'd just bring up De'Aaron Fox, but De'Aaron Fox has some of the issues that Ben Simmons has, not all of them.

The difference between De'Aaron Fox and Ben Simmons is De'Aaron Fox takes shots and misses, and Ben doesn't take shots and misses, right? How are they similar? I just think De'Aaron Fox, I think he's a terrific player, but I don't think we've seen the best of him yet. And I don't know about his, do you think he's a great three-point shooter? Do you think he's a guy that's a knockdown three-point shooter?

No. So, I mean, if I'm the Sixers, maybe I want one or two players that aren't superstars like Ben Simmons, but I just need to take Joel Embiid and surround him with as much goodness and perimeter shooting as I possibly can. And I can't give up, if I give up Ben Simmons, and surrounded with as much goodness and perimeter shooting as I possibly can.

And I can't give up. If I give up Ben Simmons, he's an all-world defender. He really is. So I also have to get some defense back. That's why I wouldn't put Theibel in a deal, because you've got to be able to defend still. But their problem is offense. Don't we agree, Philly? Their problem is not stopping people.

It's scoring. I wonder if Levine. No't you agree, Philly? Their problem is not stopping people. It's scoring. You guys disagree? I wonder if Levine ends up being the focal point of whatever package. Honestly, I don't know who has more value between Simmons and Levine. I don't know who would have to throw in something on that one.

Yeah, they have opposite issues, right? Opposite issues. I mean, I like Levine a lot. Which could turn into not even being an issue in the right place. Right. Yeah, they have opposite issues, right? Opposite issues. I mean, I like Levine a lot. Which could turn into not even being an issue in the right place. Right. Yeah, true. I was impressed watching, as you know, I love terrible international basketball.

I watched the first two American games. Zach Levine was actually being asked to be kind of a defensive stopper as much as the, and he was committed to it and then trying to play defense. It was mixed results, but I do think there's,

I do think he, the thing I like about him is he's gotten better every year the last couple of years, right? Where Simmons is the same guy he was four years ago. And you know what else? He's gotten better every year

in a situation that has been downright deplorable. Yeah. It really has been. He's another guy that's kept his mouth shut. Just gone about his business, played hard. I like Zach Levine a lot.

He's also never played on a good team. Yeah. Ever. Not even just a regular run-of-your-mill NBA franchise. He's just been carried from disaster to disaster coach to coach. You have any golden state Intel Jackie on that on Ben Simmons. I do not.

No, no. And seven number seven, number 14, like all the shit that they could possibly do stuff with. Yeah. But that doesn't make sense to me. Am I the only one that that doesn't make sense?

I would keep all of it. I would keep all of it and take players and try to build a team. So would I. So would I. Especially right now, rookies have never been better. You kind of see that this is actually a pretty tenable combination to have young players with older players, given you choose the right guys,

and you have an amazing draft coming up. So I think you can probably retool. Yeah, I agree. And we don't know. We don't know what Wiseman is yet. We don't know. No, we just did. We just had this whole discussion about what Giannis looked like in his second year.

And it wasn't this. Yeah. Or how about DeAndre Ayton? DeAndre Ayton. Everybody's laughing at the Suns for taking DeAndre Ayton. They're not laughing now. Ayton has made me way more hesitant to give up Wazman. I also, people keep talking about the Curry window.

To me, he's like a quarterback. He might as well be Rodgers or Brady. The Curry window to me is 10 more years. What are we talking about? He's Ray Allen. What do we think? He's going to be a role player two years from now? He's going to be great when he's 38.

Yeah, he's Ray Allen. He really is. Because historically, I remember when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen all those years ago, I had all these stats ready about why it was the worst move they ever made because how two guards fall off a cliff at a certain age. And they don't just, like, roll off. They fall off.

And I had all this data. And I remember talking to Ray about it. He's like, yeah, that doesn't apply to me. Because people don't do what I do to get to how I became. And I feel the same Ray about it. He's like, yeah, that doesn't apply to me because people don't do what I do to get to how I became. And I feel the same way about Steph Curry. Takes care of himself. Has a regiment, you know,

mentally prepared at all times. Yeah. Well, you left out like slight dash of OCD, which I think you need when you're, especially at that position, to just like the same patterns over and over again, day after day after day, which becomes second nature.

Yeah. Rondo. Rondo's another OCD guy. There's a bunch of them in the league. By the way, Sarah, before we go, I forgot to ask you about Giannis' hyperventilating because I became fascinated by it. Like he would be so worked up

in the first four minutes of these finals games that they have to take him out so he calms down. I know you've investigated this. I haven't. I know you've investigated this. I haven't. I haven't. But I think it's just kind of part and parcel with everything else that we've learned about Giannis, right? Like, just he has so much energy in these moments. Like, I don't know.

It's his first finals. He's probably just super amped up. He said he needed to pee. I think that there might be like, well, he said he needed to tinkle. And I feel like I should misquote him on here. But he said he needed to tinkle. Another I feel like I shouldn't misquote him on here. But he said he needs to tinkle. Another reason we love Giannis. Yeah.

Yeah. I imagine maybe there's like an adrenaline rush that happens that perhaps causes certain movements to happen, and that could be it. But yeah, you got to watch these press conferences, Bill. With Giannis, they're good. I'm in. I'm in for the next one. I got to say, when you're talking about emotional, I just won the championship reactions. There's a lot of like wild cards on the table this year.

Cause Chris Paul, God only knows what's going to happen with him. If Giannis won, I don't, I don't know what will happen with him. What kind of emotional outpouring with him and his brother. Like it's, there's some exciting moments. But you mentioned the hyperventilation. I mean, you know that Doc Rivers never ran a play for Kevin Garnett in the first five minutes of any game because of the same thing.

He was so amped up that he said, if I ran a play for him, he would have shattered the backboard. I think there's a lot of guys like that who are just so riled up with those motors, you know, that they need to just ease their way into the game. Yeah. Maybe, maybe not Ben Simmons. Um, okay. Jackie, you working on any pieces for ESPN.com? What's going on over in the Jackie empire?

I'm, I'm working on a very long term thing that I, I, so I'm being coy but I really I will tell you more when I can. I can't tell you right now. So you're working on something. That's all we need to know. Syrit, you already told us one piece.

Hopefully you didn't give the idea away. No, it's fine. And we can find you on Ringer MBA show as well. Your secrets are safe with me. I promise. And everybody else

that's listening. Great to see both of you. Thanks for coming on. Very excited for game five. Really fun finals. And I'm glad we did this. Thank you. All right.

That's it for the podcast. I was going to do some baseball stuff here at the end. A little baseball preview. I was excited for Yankees-Red Sox. And then the Yankees had a COVID situation. And, you know, we have no baseball series. We have no Yankees-Red Sox series. I was so excited for the Red Sox to win all four games

and go 10-0 for the season against the Yankees and make fun of my friends and John Jastrzemski and Jacko and just kill them about how the Red Sox are going to sweep the Yankees to go 19-0 this year. But now, I don't know what happens to those games. That was a bummer. That was my plan today. I was going to watch Red Sox-Yankees.

But instead, we did this podcast. It was produced by Kyle Creighton. We'll be back on Sunday night with another one. We will know what happened in Game 5 of the Finals. And we will also have the end of the Open and a couple other things. So I will see you on Sunday night. On the wayside On the first side of the river I'm saying

I don't have to ever