The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ralph Macchio on 'The Karate Kid' and 'Cobra Kai,' Plus Michael Lewis on 'Moneyball,' Moreyball, and Sports Parents | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: April 24, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by actor Ralph Macchio to discuss his career, his first break in 'Eight Is Enough,' working with the star-studded cast of 'The Outsiders,' his meteoric rise in the 'The Karate Kid,' and a delightful return to that world in 'Cobra Kai.' They also talk '80s movies, the NHL, MLB, and more (3:39). Then Bill sits down with writer Michael Lewis to talk about 'Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game,' how baseball has changed, being a sports parent, the state of the NBA, 'Moneyball,' 'The Blind Side', Michael's new podcast, and more (49:44). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The NFL Draft. What a week for us. Doing videos on the NFL Draft. A really good one today that we put up on our YouTube channel. Roger Sherman introducing you to Kyler Murray and explaining why he should be the number one pick, but we have a whole bunch of great stuff going on. If you missed our game of throne show, uh, talk to thrones. You can check that out on Twitter as well, but we have, we are

up to a whole bunch of stuff. Check our website, check the podcast network. I can't even keep track with all the good stuff we're giving you. Hey, speaking of good stuff, our podcast on Luminary launched today. We did a little spinoff pod. The rewatchable is $19.99. It's on Luminary. You can check it out right now. Go to luminarypodcasts.com. You can download their app. It's free. You can listen to the episode, decide if you want to do a trial, go all in, whatever you want. It's up to you. You do your thing. But we're going to do basically 14 1999 movies plus a special episode. And it's the 20th anniversary of 1999. Last year, we did a bunch of 1998 movies

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Michael Lewis and Ralph Macchio this has to be the only podcast that would have Ralph Macchio and Michael Lewis in the same podcast

I'm very proud of myself first Pearl Jam. All right. It's finally happening. Ralph Macchio. We've surfed with each other forever, podcast-wise. Podcast-wise. 2019, it's finally here.

I remember asking to get you when I had my old one at ESPN like 10 years ago. I don't know. It just kind of never happened. I don't know how that didn't happen. Yes, because I've had more heat from friends and fans of yours to say, how have you not done Simmons? It was supposed to happen last year. You were supposed to come in with Zabka

and then something happened. So we postponed. It's fine. But now we're here. Now we're here. That's all that matters is today. Yeah. I supported the Cobra Kai franchise.

I really liked that show. I was shocked by how good it was. It could have gone wrong in so many ways. I'll talk about it later so let's go backwards let's go all the way back to The Outsiders so that's your generation

basically where The Outsiders becomes this iconic teen movie that has all these guys and Diane Lane who go on to I love it and Diane Lane, who go on to. I love it, and Diane Lane. And Diane Lane. Well, there's just one girl, Cherry Vance.

But everyone in that movie goes on to bigger and better things, basically. Could you feel that in the moment? Did you know that was like, oh, this is a movie where they'll be pointing back to him and being like, this is the launch of seven careers, basically? I would say probably not. I felt that we all, you know, we all felt we were in the coolest movie ever, directed by Francis Ford Coppola on a book that I personally read when I was 12.

And so it was the dream come true job, you know. Yeah. I think at the time, probably Dylan, Matt had a couple movies. Yeah, he had a little momentum. He had Over the Edge and My Bodyguard. My Bodyguard was big. At the time. And Cruise just had Taps with Timothy Hutton.

He was a wild card in Taps. I think he kind of lost it. Yeah, he was like a psychopath. He was like, this is beautiful. You know, and Leif Garrett was probably the biggest star on the set at the time. Right, 70s singer. Yeah, 70s music and teen idol. And so I'm trying to think, did we know at the moment that like, oh, we're all going to go on and have our day in the sun, if you will. I'm not so sure I was feeling that as much as I was feeling this is going to be the greatest movie and the greatest hit and the biggest box office ever.

Well, it's Coppola. Yeah, it's Coppola and it's S.E. Hinton. And I still – it's still – that movie to me holds a special place. One, it was a great part. Two, it was the first book I finished by myself in school. Right. It was a great part, even if your character died after a horrible fire. Yeah, well, that's the whole thing.

And he gets to say, stay gold. I mean, sympathy. I still get, to this day, I'll get 14-year-old kids who would come up to me with a book, and I sign stay gold, and they just go, they just melt. It's really sweet. You got Matt Dillon going through the street. I'm doing it for Johnny. Not really.

He has a, at the time you talk to him, he's, that's the one take he'll always say, I just, I had other takes and then Francis said, go bigger. And that was the one. Oh, so he didn't like that take. He didn't, I don't think, he's not a fan of that take um which is the way it works man it becomes you know i have i have a handful of those myself i'm sure what was your what was your big break was it eight is enough um eight is enough was uh defined big so they all there that was a break certainly first movie i ever did was a movie called up the academy yeah directed by robert downey senior and junior was 14 at the time um he was uh an extra in the movie we and

so it's i always like leading with that because i just said whatever happened to him senior yeah and uh yeah junior kid who knows junior kid and um and then the uh eight is enough came after that so that was a eight is enough was, you know, a break. That's when the teen magazine started. What was your character? I forget. Jeremy Andretti. You were kind of like adopted and brought into the fold, right?

He was adopted, but it's like, okay, let's get a tough Scott Baio type into this show because the ratings are slipping. I didn't save it. You know, I was nine was too many. They studied the Scott Baio. I'm just, I'm assuming. Advanced metrics. They're like, hey, something with this Baio. Way ahead of time. Yeah, if we could

plug and play that, we could save the show. It won't have to move to Saturday at eight. Eight is Enough was a weirdly important show of my childhood. It was kind of so there was like the what was the Michael Landon show? Little House on the Prairie. I never was into that one. I was never into Walton's Little House. Eight is Enough was like my family show. It was the edgy family show Little House on the Prairie I never was into that one I was never into Walton's Little House

80's Enough was like my family show it was the edgy family show with the laugh tracks and the daughters were good looking I had crushes on like three of them

exactly it was a great place to work and Dick Van Patten he was America's dad at that point but then that first year the mom died in real life

Diana Highland and Betty Buckley Betty Buckley. Betty Buckley comes in. It was good. I liked that show. You're all over it, man. I was an only child in the 70s. I had nothing going on.

And no sports. No sports. No 24-hour sports television. That's right. You had the Olympics and the World Series and a lot of 80s and up. I remember the 1980 Olympics. I remember every event that happened.

There was nothing else on. Me too. And that was ABC too, so they were promoting a lot of the ABC shows during that. But yeah, like Happy Days, Vernon Shirley, all that stuff. Yeah, that was it. So Eight is Enough was the first break and it's sort of the teen magazines and that kind of stuff.

And then The Outsiders came right after that. Outsiders I consider my break um because it was everything it was i want this part i want this movie i love this director this is you know did you beat out baio for that part was there like a little italian on italian crime it's really funny uh everyone if you look at the behind the scenes uh on the outsiders is a great great little featurette on the casting of that film and how it was done. We were at – it was – oh, God, Zoetrope Studios, which was on Las Palmas. Yeah. When Francis had the studio down in Hollywood.

And we all went, sat on the stage around the perimeter. Every actor you could imagine, from Dennis Quaid to Mickey Rourke to Scott Baio to, you know, to everyone in the movie and beyond. Mickey Rourke and Matt Dillon are just sizing each other up. Sizing you up for Rumblefish. Oh, yeah. It's going to be Dallas. This is going to be us.

One of us is getting this. That's right. Actually, it was, yeah, I think, Matt, they saw Dylan in New York. But I was out here at the time, out in L.A. And so it was an amazing audition process because you're watching every other actor read for the role, which is unprecedented and just brutal. Because then you're watching Coppola seeing if he's reacting and then you want to do, you know, you're trying to please the decision maker. Well, and he also had the, this is only 10 years after Godfather 1 where he basically launches the careers of all these guys. Yeah, I mean the biggest. And then an apocalypse.

Yeah. So this is between one from the heart, which was arguably one from the wallet. Yeah. So this was between one from the heart, which was, I guess, arguably one from the wallet. Yeah. So he needed to do something to make money quick. Yeah. But Francis always, that's how his career always was. Spectacular. It was, Outsiders just holds a special place for me.

So Karate Kid, was that your first starring vehicle? I think it was, right? Yeah, that came out, right. That was the Outsiders hit the theaters in this March 83. And Karate Kid, we started shooting. I was cast that summer and we started shooting Halloween 1983. Did you know it was going to be the most rewatchable cable movie of the 80s probably somewhere every place because all this stuff

is happening mid-80s where everybody gets hbo at the same time right right everyone's just getting more channels and we didn't have a ton of movies back then and it was kind of the same 20 movies that were just on all the time and cry kid was just on for a year straight in 1985. But it also did great in the movie theater. But shows up on cable, it's just on. It still does. Yeah. It really still does.

You know, it was, I had no idea. Neither did Avildsen, our director, or Weintraub, our producer, or anyone, Pat Morita. I think no one knew first of all you can't predict it would be this piece of pop culture and then spawn this series 35 years later that's a that's a hit i mean that that's anyone who said they knew that is lying right um anyone who said they saw a chemistry between pat marita and myself would not be lying. Yeah. That was evident right away. Less evident to me. Do you think it was his experience with Scott Baio?

Maybe he was- It could have been. Could have been. It was a setup with Happy Days. Happy Days. Happy Days was the incubation period where it became the success of the Karate Kid. This is all making sense now. That's great.

That's a great point to make. Did you ever say, who do you like more, me or Baio? Just be honest. I haven't done it. Put a couple drinks in it. Never got the chance, and I will never get the chance. So as you're filming it, you know it's going to be a big movie. No.

Come on. As we're filming it, we know we have something special between those two characters. Because I just kept hearing that all the time. Yeah. And there was an ease of working with him. It was just, you know, we're just the two right guys in the right part. There was a casting gimmick sense to it for me just growing up.

Like, I was like, really? The guy from Happy Days? He's going to be the central lead of Karate Kid? Not that I had a voice and or experience, but I was like, Arnold from Happy Days? Really? This thing is going to be a ham and cheese fest. It is going to be. And the producer, Jerry Weintraub, said, there's no way I'm going to have that Catskills comic in my picture.

Yeah. Which was the way Jerry Weintraub talked. That's how he ordered his dinner. But, Avelson, it goes into John Avelson, the director. He saw Pat

and he shot video of him, shot video of me, cut it together. You could see that actual footage on YouTube right now, our first reading

separately. Me in New York, Pat in LA. Seriously? Yeah. You could pull that up. It's awesome. A Karate Kid thing

I haven't seen. I can't believe it. Jesus. That's right. You can find it. that up it's awesome a karate kid thing I haven't seen I can't believe it Jesus you can find it I guess it's Machio audition Machio karate you'll find it somewhere

and and it's you know he just he just played the tape for a wine shop in the studio and said

this is these are the guys these are the guys and and we should mention he did Rocky he did Rocky so he had

some sports movie he had some sports movie. He had some sports movie and knew nothing of boxing nor martial arts, but he knew how to tell the underdog story. That was another weird thing about this movie is I didn't know anything about mixed martial arts or karate either. I didn't know what the rules were, understood it. But as I watched the movie 300 times over the next 35 years, I mean, there's some rule. You can hit somebody in the face, it's a penalty,

but then you kick him in the face for the final thing, no penalty. Right, right. I don't know. You could elbow the guy's knee and not get disqualified. I always have to bring that up. I never really understood the rules.

It's all, listen, you go through it and many movies you go through, you start circling things that make no sense. It's power of suggestion. We do a podcast called The Rewatchables. And one of the things is like, we have one of the categories is nitpicks. Because when you see a movie 10 times, 20 times, 50 times,

you just start picking up stuff you never would have picked up. You know, like in Major League, the batting order gets screwed up in the ninth inning. Like just things that they never intended you to notice. The fans, well, now what happens is they do that in real time because everybody has that. Well, many people have way too much time. Yeah.

And the internet and slow motion freeze frame. Yeah. They could pull out when the stunt doubles in because they just lock in. They say that's not his profile. You know, we never knew. You just watch Rocky or you watch an action picture and it's the actor. Now they freeze.

They can freeze everything. The TVs are too good now. Yeah, they see better than we do. There was a blurriness with those old ones and all that stuff.

There was, yeah, you have to actually dumb it down to make it have that warmth and stuff. How long were you filming the karate tournament

back then? I mean, it was 35 years ago about five days uh this the final scene we shot it was one day it was pretty amazing because billy and i zapka and i would work that scene it was like a ballet we really had it down we had plenty of time where with cobra we rehearsed that scene that fight scene for over the two and a half three months um and cobra kai withobra Kai, they put the camera up, okay, somebody kick somebody. It's a lot tougher

on the lower budget and more dangerous. But when we did that, it was six cameras. It was Avilson, who had done Rocky, as you said, so he's the conductor. Everything's choreographed. It's choreographed. We fill it up with Cal State Northridge. We fill up the gym

with extras. And we run it for the first time like a live theater. It was unbelievable. Plus, I get to win. So, everybody's cheering for me. They're like, cheer the guy in the white. You boo the guy in the left. That's how Karate Kid is so black and white.

Right. Where Cobra Kai delves into you. Oh, they're just so evil. Delves into the gray area of all these characters. I always felt like, I remember writing this like over 20 years ago, Cobra Kai and Duke, the similarities, Duke basketball. Just like a certain type of player slash Cobra Kai student. It's interesting because you mentioned before,

when do we know, do we know we're making a big hit movie at the time with Karate Kid? We did not. What I will say, and I've told this story before, but it's a good one. I was with seeing a sneak preview or May before it opened in June, the summer of 84. And it was at the Coronet Theater in New York on the Upper East Side, back of the theater packed. And everybody was on following every move of this kid and I played this kid.

So it was this out-of-body experience to have this roomful in concert sort of cheering, rooting, laughing. And I never experienced anything like that and most people don't. And at the end of it, there's such – be it the payoff scene, show me wax on, wax off, when he realizes these chores amount to something. Or the big fight at the end, which was literally like being at a fight. No question. You know, crowd and people jumping up. I don't even see that today. High-fiving, hugging.

Yeah. And then pouring out onto the street and everybody's doing the crane kick on 2nd Avenue. And Jerry Weintraub just leaned over to me and said uh i think we're gonna be doing a couple of these and that was the first time that i was like that's the moment that i said okay this is something else i had heard it was testing well quote unquote yeah but that was a life-changing like realization what's happened over the past 30 years the pop culture the fact that the internet allows people to say wait a second justice for johnny he's not really the karate kid he's the bully he

yeah he was just rolling a joint when he put the hose on him and splash him with water and he deserved to get his ass kicked and now it starts this whole get him a body bag catching flies with chopsticks becomes right like a bigger than the movie and I think that's what's lent itself to it. You know, the Cobra Kai, first of all, Cobra Kai is well produced, well written and across the board. And you can't have any of it without that. But they've been, you know, amped up and ready to embrace something like this. And when you deliver it well, which, which fortunately for us,

we have, that's why we have 60 million views of episode one and people to, you know, millions and millions for, of the, for the trailer for season two about to drop. You know, it's awesome.

That was a weird time back then where people would share in the movie theater. And I don't think, cause I remember seeing Rocky two and people were fucking losing their minds like it was game seven yeah i was there and there was a couple then karate was like that too where it was it was filmed so well it kind of was filmed like a game or a sporting event that you felt like you were a fan of it's really well executed no i still don't think there's any way he gets by Dutch. No. They,

in fact, they don't really show anything. His arsenal is one kick that really doesn't work. They don't show anything for that match. He gets one point off. It's like, winner!

It's like, wait a second, Dutch, whatever. I think Dutch was the sleeper. I think the studio is saying this movie's over two hours. We got to get to this.

Chop some stuff. Yeah, cut it. So what happened in your life after it came out? you know, less going to a mall on a Saturday. Yeah. You know, that was – but I was busy, super busy at the time, you know,

which I can't say 10 years later was that case. But I was – you know, the second one was being teed right up. I went and I did a movie called Teachers right away. I like Teachers. Nick Nolte. Nick Nolte, Jeff Hirsch, and Jo Beth Williams,

and Morgan Freeman. No sign of that on cable now. No, that, that, some movies are just gone. I know, Crossroads doesn't get

a lot of time either. That was right after. You're right. So I did those two in a row before part two and then I was on Broadway with De Niro

in a play called Coop and His Teddy Bear. Wow. And Burt Young and De Niro in a play called Cuban as Teddy Bear. Wow. And Burt Young and De Niro and I were, that was about 10 months time between the public theater downtown and then the Longacre Theater. Had crossovers in the movie, Karate Kid 2, The Mets in 86. So I was busy. Oh, thanks for bringing that up. Oh, come on. I got to do it. Well, listen. God. And listen, you've had some success since.

We've had an okay century. Yes. You've had an okay new century. Very good. Yes, this millennium you're doing fine. Your 21st century has been going great. Yeah, right. 21st century, not as great.

Not as good. But listen, it made you, the wine tastes sweet. So you had all this stuff going and then you have the, and you just come off this Islanders four straight cups. Four straight cups. And then Mets in 86. Mets World Series in 86. What's your other team?

The Jets. The Jets, which has been a lot longer. That's been tougher. A lot tougher. Well, now you have with the Mets and Jets, you have basically nobody under the age of 38 remembers a Mets World Series. Yeah, I know. And then you have nobody under the age of, I don't know, 50. Yeah, right.

It's like me. 55. A guy born the year after me has no idea. Yeah. It's funny to see that happen in the Mets because for just years, I felt like they, anytime I saw a Mets fan, like you're a Red Sox fan, I could just see it in their eyes. Like, oh yeah. But it started to die in the last.

I was right on the first base side, my wife and I. You went to game six? I went to all of them. Listen, I had a show on Broadway and a hit movie. I could get tickets. You're just going like, I'm going. Yeah. And so, yeah, we were about 19 rows up right on the first base side.

You know, I saw, I just remember, I just, I remember that inning freezing with my my wife uh she wasn't we were dating at the time um and we i just remember the i mean it's just it was crazy magic the way if you're a met fan um calvin chiraldi was that the guy unfortunately yes okay anyway uh I don't have many exciting stories. Deer in the headlights. But I remember just seeing the ball behind Buckner's heel, just seeing white. Yeah. And the three guys in front of me, which were all like six foot five.

That's all I remember from that. Like, I just remember that chopper down the first space and just chaos. I'm proud of you that you didn't leave. Oh, I was. Celebr chopper down the first base and just chaos. I'm proud of you that you didn't leave. Oh, I was there. Celebrity getting out of there early after the seventh inning.

You know, I'm the sports fan for celebrity. That's good. That's a good job by you. Celebrity's in the rear view. Yeah, that's a nice job by you.

Yeah, that's just the way I am. And then you went to seven. Oh, I went to seven. Rain delay. Rain delay after six. There were rain delays

all the time. Yeah. And don't forget the Houston series. That game, that game six down in Houston Mets down 3-0 up all the time. And don't forget the Houston series. That game six down in Houston, Mets down 3-0. It's kind of the last great game of that decade because everybody remembers the next series. Amazing game.

I was watching on a 13-inch television. Yeah. Just like. Was that 16 innings? 16 innings. It was crazy. And then, you know, before that, you know, the Islanders Stanley Cup, I was at all those 80. I was at that, you know, that.

I love that stuff. We did a 30 for 30 about the Islanders. The one that Connelly did? About John's. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The crazy owner who bought the team and he didn't have any money. Crazy.

But we tried to, one of my big notes when we were doing the notes process was we need a little more of how freaking incredible the four straight cuffs were. They were amazing. I mean, that was the pre-Oilers dynasty. Yeah, exactly what it was. I mean, they handed it off and, and the, you know, sports, uh, the NHL, I think, I mean, I was curious for your opinion. Now I'm spinning it back to you. I think the NHL does a good job.

This is where I get a little frustrated with basketball because there's a handful of teams. Yes. And the NHL does a decent job right now. Anyway, you have Tampa Bay, Lightning are gone and Pittsburgh's gone. Yeah. Anybody, I mean, the Islanders actually could potentially, if all goes right, have a shot. They weren't supposed to get in yet. And I think any given game can be competitive for the most part.

I don't feel that way in the other three major sports. It's really nuts how just random hockey is. Yeah. We got, even though I'm from Boston Boston we got kink season tickets for three years Boston Toronto it's a good game Boston Toronto's gonna be

oh yeah yeah but people will hear this tonight but watching watching that King Stanley Cup run just going to the games I'll take my daughter

and it's just like it comes down to like a puck hitting somebody's shoulder and going in right some people I don't totally I get that

but it's like. All my basketball friends say that. You need the skill to make that shot. Well, you need the skill to put yourself in the position. You're absolutely right. But it is, it just drives you nuts when that one bounce or, you know, the one ricochet, whatever. But you have two guys hanging on you and not if you get a hang L is you get two free throws. You know, so there's that argument.

There is the goalie. The whole hot goalie thing is just, I mean, that's why the Bruins won in 2011. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thomas got hot and then Quick was like an octopus for three years there. Yeah, same thing. Yeah, with the basketball. Plus I sucked at basketball.

So that's why I mean I appreciate it The one thing I don't like with the hockey is The regular season is just completely devalued now And this is why I gave up the tickets It just doesn't matter Like the Lightning had one of the best regular seasons of all time And they got swept in the first round But it is still 4 out of 7

So it's not like it's a One game baseball playoff. No, I would tweak it, though. I would say if you were the one seed, you get five of the seven games at home. There should be some advantage. That might be something. Maybe even that wouldn't matter. Maybe it wouldn't have even mattered for the Lightning.

Let's take a quick break to talk about ZipRecruiter. Having high sports IQ, very, very important. This is one of the reasons I think the Rockets are going to win the NBA title, regardless of how James Harden looked in those Utah games. James Harden's sports IQ, the team's sports IQ, it's just super important. I think they're the smartest team.

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can try it for free. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire. Back to Ralph Macchio. So, Karate Kid 2, Japan?

Okinawa, but Hawaii. We shot it. I didn't know this. Yeah, this is great. Hawaii. I'm very, I'm very, I'm a little disappointed you didn't know that. I probably did know that. You probably didn't.

I just forgot because I'm old. You just want to block it out of your head. She says, no way Miyagi doesn't live in Okinawa. That was a big fight scene. Yeah. This time that for points for life. For life. Good one.

I love the fans. It's so funny because the guys who write Cobra Kai are like you. Yeah. This time, not for points, for life. For life. Good one. I love the fans. It's so funny because the guys who write Cobra Kai are like you. Yeah. And that's why I said this is the time. Because they grew up on all the lines.

They know, and they know way more than I do. They do. They really, I mean, they lived it, breathed it. Crag Kid 3 got a little,

that went off the rails. It's a bad movie. Yeah. Did you know that when you were filming it? Yes. Yes. A lot of stuff didn't add up.

Nothing adds up. Nothing adds up. He learned nothing of all the teachings. It was a money grab. It was a money grab. I mean, I think their intentions were not just for that. Yeah. Because Avildsen came in.

It was the same team. Yeah. There were script problems. There were a lot of things. And it's funny because some of the guys who write Cobra Kai showed two of them.

You know, they just love, and they love doing this to me. In season two, there's a whole, there's a bunch of callbacks to- To Kid 3? Yeah, to what I call-

Oh my God. What I call the second sequel. Dare not speak its name. No, it's not that bad. Listen, I have a beach house to show for it. That's a win. But it is a win. I like Kid 3.

Kid 3 is unintentionally very funny. Yeah, but that's what it is. It's campy. It's cartoony. It's all those things. The relationship between him and Miyagi goes, it's a little too close at this point. It is ridiculous. It's maybe scale back a little with your 70-year-old friend.

Yeah, that's right. Right. Like you don't have to go shopping for flowers. When you get on a first date, maybe don't bring the first date over. Yeah, right.

To open up the Miyagi's little trees. This is my 70-year-old friend. That's right. I'm with you, man. But there are references and these guys love it. John, Josh, and Hayden

are creators. They love that it- I'm glad you cashed in on it. Yeah, well, I mean, somewhat. You know, times of, you know, at that point, it was pretty good. One of the reasons I love The Cobra Kai Show, and I was so impressed by it, was I could tell it was written by people that love the original movies and want to keep the spirit of it. But, you know, when we see these remakes, and even when they remade The Karate Kid with Jaden Smith and it was like the same plot modernized but not really an attachment to the old movie.

I thought, and I said this last year on this podcast, I thought it was kind of groundbreaking how they reinvented it but using the old characters and advancing this new version of the story while also like kind of adding stuff to the story I already knew in my head. And I'd never seen a show do that before. It's switching perspectives and the prism on a story that you know. Yeah, it's really smart. And it's always, and no matter what angle you're looking at, say something that happened in the karate, get a story point. The perspective of

it changes the angle. And so you're hearing a story, you know, but from a story point, the perspective of it changes. The angle – and so you're hearing a story you know but from a different point of view. It's very – I guess that – I don't know if it's really sliding doors. But it's that it has a totally different perspective. And on top of that, you have – then you bring in the younger generation and how it affects them in the younger storylines. And they could take that. It's how my daughter – the girl plays my daughter, how she remembers what her dad told her. Yeah. Or one of my favorite little lines in the first season is when I'm talking to Randy Heller,

who plays my mom. She came back in season one. And she's talking about all those Cobra Kai bullies. I remember when they pushed you down that hill. And then the kid who plays my son says, Hill, I thought it was a cliff. It's like as if I tell my family that I was pushed down a cliff. Yeah, exaggerated story.

And I'm like, enough out of you. And so you could do that. And on top of that is the ability to go back to Sony or Columbia Pictures salt mines and literally get the 35-millimeter footage of camera angles that were not used in the movie. And they use them in the show. So they digitize them. So when you see Johnny Lawrence get that crane kick in his face, which was always a big, low, wide, heroic shot of LaRusso winning the end of the match. Now you have three different camera angles that were never cut into the film that were shot back in 1983

that are now woven into Cobra Kai. And then there are scenes that in future episodes that were scenes that were shot that were never in the movie that we are looking at story points where then we could go flash back to that and see us from 1983. That's fine.

So there's... Also, the key to the idea was flipping it and making Daniel kind of a dick. Yeah, letting him get successful. And Johnny Lawrence like, wait, I feel bad for Johnny Lawrence. This is like the Christian Leitner of sports movies. Exactly, exactly.

Now I'm supposed to have feelings for him? Yeah, it's fun. But it worked. It works and it works because you see them both with good intentions to right their wrongs or find their balance. And LaRusso season two is very much about opening up Miyagi-Do and passing on the wisdom of his mentor and showing a better way to all the— Or is it a better way? Well, it is— Or is it a better way?

Well, it is if he had his cars waxed and his deck sanded. I mean, he can... A little child labor. I mean, what's wrong with that? Also, this show worked because Zapka was really good at it. I was surprised.

It's great. Because if he wasn't good, I don't know if it works. No, if he's not good in it, we're not doing it. We're not doing more of it. And in Marty Coven season two, he's great. He really is great. So doing it. We're not doing more of it. And in Marty Coven season two is great.

He really is great. So that got teased at the end of season one that he's back. He's a big part. Yeah. He throws a wrench in everyone's plans. So evil. Yeah. I mean, there's dictators who are evil and then John Kreese and then that's it.

That's it. And he makes Darth Vader look warm and fuzzy. Yeah. Darth Vader's like, yeah. Because you don't really get to know, you know, how he was in school, if he was picked on, you know, so. Oh, wait, I'm going to start having feelings for him too?

I know, I was talking about Darth Vader. Oh, what about John Kreese? You learn stuff about him. I'm never going to like John Kreese. You're not going to like him. You don't need to like him. You got to keep, I mean, there's certain villains that you love to hate. Yeah.

And I'll still, you know, this show is by design you know, was about coming in from the door of Johnny Lawrence and explaining what happens to a bully. Why are they like that? You know, the human side of it. So, you know,

I think that they're having him seek redemption and us feel for him is part of what but it's also awesome when he's a dick you know so we don't want i'll have those meetings with the guys i'm saying you know what i don't want i don't want the johnny laurence teddy bear i still want him to be a dick that is trying to right his wrong you know and so there's always a balance of that and i you know the same thing with lar know? And so there's always a balance to that. And I, you know, the same thing with LaRusso. It's a tough balance in this show because he had the great, he had a human Yoda. I'm staying in the story, the horse thing.

But he had this human Yoda that he no longer has. So he's lost that. He's got that void in his life. Now martial arts for LaRusso, refinding balance is important going forward. But he still has that East Coast kind of slip, skins his knees.

He's got that knee-jerk temper reaction. They love it. The writers love it. The more LaRusso gets to be the LaRusso that's like, you know, this school sucks. It sucks. The more they love. What about a little soccer? What about some over-50s, over-45 soccer? Let's do it. Okay. That's season three. I'll bring that in. Always a big what if. What happened that soccer? What about some over 50s, over 45 soccer or whatever? Season three, knock wood.

I'll bring that in. Always a big what if. What happened that year? What happened? Like, why didn't he go into— No, when he got kicked off the team, like, you know, he was a little messy, like, on the field in practice. He was—I mean, my soccer experience was getting the juggling down to look good and not have any finish. That was it. Juggling trainers.

Juggling, and he could not get around the defense. By the way, you mentioned Randy Howard, one of my favorite movies ever, Fast Break. She's Gabe Kaplan's wife. That's right. And she was also in The White Shadow, my favorite TV show ever. We got Swayze staring at me. She's the best. She's, when my last podcast ever, she's going to be the biggest. She'll be,

I can make that call. I could get to her. What happened, what happened after the three, you always had a really good sense of humor about crowd kid. You're having, you were in a bunch of movies. Like it wasn't like it was the one thing you did.

Even like when you went on entourage, like you always had a sense of humor about the whole thing. Was it hard to keep that where people just say, Hey, Daniel, that's all the time. And now we're in a heightened level with the success of this show, but it's yeah. I mean, I would say 10, 15, about 15 years ago, it certainly was, I went through the enough already phase. Yeah. You know, my cousin Vinny was a nice,

it was a nice thing in the early nineties, you know, that having that film, Um, um, you know, my cousin Vinny was a nice, it was a nice thing in the early nineties, you know, that having that film, but it was, you know, things got a little dry, you know, the lean years as I call them. And, uh, and so that was at the point that, you know, you're trying to find other roles to balance the balance work, um, you know, balance other things and your career. But I mean, at that point for me, uh, you know, my things in your career but i mean at that point for me uh you know my wife and i we had our kids we had them in 90 92 95 so a lot of it was that's where my focus was so when i look back at it it wasn't necessarily by design but i had when i wasn't working as much um i had that time you know to be the dad you're in california at that point

oh new york i was only in california two years 1881 is eight is enough up into auditioning for the outsiders once i got the outsiders back to new york and the 86 world series um but um uh so i i never it's interesting now more than ever in the last five years or so. See, I guess when How I Met Your Mother did the whole thing about the Barney Stinson's theory that the real karate kid is Johnny Lawrence and is not this nerdy greaseball Italian kid from Jersey who stole his life. to five to seven years and when i see uh guys our age your age i won't say i won't put you in my category um that that's that have kids 11 year old kids or whatever that that are introduced to the movie um and what it means to them and seeing dads and sons and mothers and daughters with the outsiders or whatever that all of a sudden to me at wisdom, I'd like to believe it's wisdom that says to me this is a gift that I've been fortunate enough to play a few roles that have been inspirational or positive in a world that isn't always inspirational or positive. And I could shed that kind of, without sounding lame, joy to people. That's something I embrace.

And to say, okay, I'm going to do Simmons today, but we're not talking about Karate Kid. It's just the stupidest thing in the world. Well, you know, it's interesting. The streaming generation now, not a lot of movies from the 80s hold up for somebody like my 11-year-old son or my 14-year-old daughter. There's a timelessness to a couple of them. And I think Karate Kid's one of them. Yeah, I agree.

But Teen Wolf is weirdly translating. I think that's why MTV ended up doing the Teen Wolf TV show because for something about that movie, it's kind of timeless. But then other ones aren't timeless. And they just kind of, you know, for various reasons, like Revenge of the Nerds has some real issues in it now

that aren't great. You can't go there. Yeah. But a lot of the 80s stuff has real issues in it now that aren't great. You can't go there. Yeah. But a lot of the 80s stuff has just gone away and only a couple of them have lived. But I feel like Princess Bride, Karate Kid, some of these things, they're just going to live on and on because it doesn't really matter that they happen in the 80s at this point.

It defined it. Well, the 80s are still kind of retro cool. Yeah. And that's going to fade at some point. I don't know. maybe not maybe not but the the the being in a film that sort of defined that time but also a movie that works on a human level yeah you know it's a kid trying to navigate fish out of water uh you know fatherless child single parent moving to a different area. You're checking a lot of boxes there of people that have not a lot of money, rich family that is kind of dating into.

There's a lot of stuff. And then there's a wish fulfillment. And then there's a, you know, Daniel LaRusso had no business winning anything. Right. Which is the biggest difference when people talk about the remake, you know, the Jaden Smith remake, because I felt he was a ninja within five minutes, you know. And there was less of that kid very vulnerable kid that needed guidance and that that mentor you know we could all use that uh bit of wisdom navigating through that tough time and i think that's why i agree you know it works more than just catching flies with chopsticks and get them a body bag.

Right. And it is an 80s high school movie, which was this great era of high school movies from like 83 to 87. Right, all the John Hughes films. Just a lot of them. All the John Hughes ones, like Secret Admirer. And what's funny now is Secret Admirer is great. And what's funny now is Netflix now has the algorithm has figured out just make more of these. Yeah.

And like my daughter, she watched this movie this weekend with Noah Centineo. It's called like The Perfect Date, something like that. And it steals from like five different movies where it's like this guy, he's making money being this one man dating service. But now he's not seeing the world the right way and he needs to come up and I'm like

oh man they stole from this this is totally from Secret Admirer and but she has no idea she's just like oh I like

no it says there it's another generation but it's nice when you can connect the two you know nice when you like you say

we're watching Cobra Kai with your kid or you know that's happening a lot. I'm getting a lot. And the other thing is, for YouTube Red, which I don't even, it's not even called YouTube Red anymore. Now it's Premium. But this was by far their biggest hit.

Yeah. By far. Yeah, listen, it was initially. This was like a giant hit. That was our warm-up pitch before we got, you know got down here over to Netflix and Amazon, Hulu and all. And we had multiple bids on the show. It's YouTube, Suzanne Daniels, I credit her, who was a veteran in television at MTV and I'm blanking. I think WB.

But she said, you're going to have multiple buyers and I'm going to tell you why you have to be here. And she proceeded to pitch to us why we shouldn't go anyplace else. And at the end of the day, what they had to do is basically say sight unseen, not a scripted word. They just brought her in the room and said make 10 of them where everyone else wanted to see a script, wanted to say maybe just six of them. So that's the – they had to play that hand, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the show. And what's great about it is they really are behind the show, have used their engine to promote and get it out there.

It's different than what I grew up with. I'm like, some commercials, some television. But you know what? People are watching computers and phones. That's how they get their information. And also the YouTube culture of they watch it, I'll watch one more, and now you're four in. Yeah. And it just kind of goes to the next one immediately.

So it reaches—I mean, honestly, who has more eyeballs than YouTube? Nothing. And so it's about, you know, driving that. And then so— Especially with, like, under that. And then so. Especially with like under 17. Yeah. Yeah. Like my son, my son doesn't watch cable.

He doesn't watch satellite. He goes to YouTube. He goes to Netflix. He goes to Hulu. Yep. Yep. And those are the three. And he goes to YouTube first.

Yeah. And he goes on dives. And that's what everybody does. They just like click on this. Oh, what's that next video on the right corner? And they do that. They do that with, you know, if you're clicking on something, 80s music or martial arts or boxing or sports,

it will drive you to the show. They have those algorithms, you know, that send you there. And then you, you know, so it's the Wild West. I'm still trying to understand it all. But you guys stood out. And I think it's important that,

especially when somebody is trying to create like a new version of whatever they're doing and they have that one thing that worked, now they're moving resources beyond it. You must have had a higher budget for season two. Not necessarily for season two, but season three that we're talking about, which is not locked yet. Japan? Actually Japan this time. Let's go to Okinawa. Let's go to Okinawa.

I'm thinking it happened here. Let's do it. And forget about Hawaii. Let's go to Okinawa let's go to Okinawa I'm thinking it happened here let's do it and forget about Hawaii let's go to Okinawa you know what let's go to Hawaii too let's do Japan let's do all of it let's just um so you think there will be a season three uh where it's it's all in talks it's not my son's only question for you was ask him if there's gonna be a season three there I think the fans will revolt if they don't get a season. The way season two ends, you have to have a season three. You need a season three. Potentially you could take it somewhere else too

if they didn't want to do a season three, right? No, maybe. Possibly. It's always possible. Yeah. But I have a feeling, I have it on good information that it's looking very, very real. It's just not official, so I can't say. Fair.

Did we get Ally in season two or no? That's the same thing. Could be a surprise? Very, very possible, but who knows? Wow, really? I don't know. Here's the thing. The beauty of anyone who existed in the Karate Kid universe, including the Hilary Swank movie, Karate Kid Part 4,

Next Karate Kid. They all existed in this world. Like the Jackie Chan, Jaden Smith, that didn't exist. That's another, I mean, that didn't exist in the Karate Kid universe. You don't acknowledge that one. But I'm not even saying that. I'm just saying it doesn't work. I'm just saying it's in its house.

Gotcha. It happened. It's fine. Don't talk about it. I don't judge. It just kind of happened. So any of those characters are canon to be used if they work organically into the story. And there's some real great Easter eggs in season two. And we're discussing others going

forward. I mean, our goal is to keep this thing going as long as the stories are fresh and original and the fans come to the party and so far so good. 10 episodes. Mm-hmm. YouTube premium. YouTube premium.

Cobra Kai. First episodes free to everyone all over the world. April 24th. April 24th. Good luck. Thanks, man. I'm really excited. I'm glad this is back.

Congrats on this. Thanks, man. It's really good. Thanks so much. I'm so psyched that I can watch this with my son. It's just hilarious. It's great. It's the best part. All right excited that I can watch this with my son. It's just hilarious. It's great. It's the best part.

All right. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, buddy. All right. We're going to talk to Michael Lewis in one second. Let's talk about State Farm. State Farm agents know that in life, anything can happen. You might buy your dream car on impulse or come home to a broken in apartment, or maybe

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there could be one just around the corner. So contact an agent today, because no matter what neighborhood you're from or whatever stage of life you're in, State Farm agents are here to help life go right. Talk to an agent today, 1-800-STATE-FARM. Stay tuned until the end of the show to hear us chat with a State Farm agent firsthand. Once again, State Farm, here to help life go right. And since we're here, don't forget about a couple of ringer things. Our luminary little special spinoff series, The Rewatchables 1999, launched today. Go to luminarypodcast.com to check that out. Don't forget about Binge Mode, the best Game of Thrones

recap on the earth. There's a million recaps. This is really the only one that matters. Goes up late Wednesday night, Mallory Rubin, Jason Concepcion. A really, really fun episode. Russo and I actually broke it down on Sunday night. We did the dummies version. This is the smart version. So check that out. Huge, huge, huge episode coming up. It looks like it's going to be like an hour and a half, something like that. So you got to be ready. Listen to Binge Mode. All right. Michael Lewis is coming up. We taped this two weeks ago. It was supposed to run two weeks ago. What happened, Kyle? Like Magic Johnson? There's some Magic Johnson stuff, right? Something weird happened. I'm sorry. I was reading an email.

Classic. It wasn't a text. That was an email. Kyle's the best. Sorry. Well, something happened, but now we're running it. So it's fine. It's an evergreen interview and you're going to love it. It's part one of he's going to come back in a couple of weeks

and we're going to hit part two with a whole bunch of stuff about where things are going in life. But hopefully you will enjoy part one. Here it is, Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis is here. This has never happened somehow. I think we've sent emails about it multiple times. We did something on stage once at the Sloan Conference

before the Sloan Conference was cool. Yes. What was that? That was ages ago. Ages? I mean, was it maybe five years ago? I know. Might have been longer.

It was the year the Blindside movie came out, whenever that was. That was a good movie. That was the first time I went to that. That conference is one of these things that everybody should know about. Even if they don't go, they should know. The idea that Daryl Morey, Houston Rockets GM, is teaching this little class at MIT, and that he makes a deal with the Rockets owner that, yes, I'll come run your basketball team so long as I get to keep teaching this class. And the compromise is, no, you get to have this little conference,

which becomes, I mean, I was there. Did you go this year? Was it 3,000 people? I did. I was there this year. And I also went when it was at MIT in the classrooms. So we're talking like 07, 08. They would have 100 people, right? Yeah. And it was crammed. And it became clear. It was right around, you wrote a piece, I think it was 10 years ago, about Shane Battier. It's about-

For New York Times Magazine. That sounds right. Because it was right around when my book came out. And I was doing this book tour about my book. And some people are asking me about stats and when is Moneyball going to drift into the NBA? And I was always like, it will and it won't. There's ways to do it, but it's still what makes basketball so great is

somebody like Battier, that the stats say he's not that good. And yet when he plays, he is good. And there's some way to figure that out math wise, but also you can't figure it out because there's still something about how five guys connect that you can only go so far with stats. But that was like the first big piece anybody had written about this. So it's really true that baseball was the ideal place. Baseball or like golf, the ideal place for the stats revolution to start because it is it's like an individual sport masquerading as a team sport and you can isolate credit and blame so much so easy on easily on a you don't need your teammates really at all you don't and you and you also you know the guys

and because they're defined by these stats even when the team sucks and even when there's no hope making playoffs they still try because they're paid for the individual stats. Yeah. And, and they are, but there it's so easy to isolate. So it's easy to analyze and basketball. This was the problem,

right? When Daryl walks into it, I think it's, it's, um, it's one that what they're measuring is not necessarily what's leading to wins, uh,

you know, assist points and rebounds. I mean, there, there are ways you can score a lot of points and hurt your team, right? You take 100 shots and you make 20 of them, you scored a lot of points, but you lost. Or if you're a good offensive player and you stink on defense. Right, right. So what Daryl was saying in the beginning when I did that Battier piece was we need to measure

different things. And they were trying to measure what Battier did. And there were crude ways of, you know, the first crude way to measure the effect a player had on the game was just plus minus. They just, you know,

what happens when he's on the court to the team's performance. And, but, but they've gone way beyond that now. And I think Darrell would say, he'd probably agree with you, that there's limits to what the whole money, even though he is the embodiment of Moneyball in the NBA, I think he'd probably say, we will learn a lot more and it will become ever more analytically driven, but there'll still be limits. Yeah. And I think,

it's funny, I've known him now for almost 15 years, and it's funny to see him come around on certain things, but yet keep the same principles of what he always believed, which is like there's ways to measure a lot of this stuff, and if I can merge that with the eye test, and I can learn all this other information, and I can put all of this together. This will all make sense. Because it was never in baseball.

You could literally have a computer be the GM of a team. Right. And it would probably do a half decent. You can't do that in basketball. And if he made any mistakes and he's had a great run, it was always about not understanding fully the chemistry part of it, which he eventually realized over time. And this year, this Rockets team he has now is like the best version of that. It's like this team where everybody kind of knows

what's my role? What do I do? Who are the stars? Oh, I'm not James Harden. It's his team. I do this. And that's really what basketball is. And at some point, stats can't really capture that.

Capture some of it. Capture some of it. Capture some of it. Right, right. And it's changed the game, right? I mean, the game's played differently, partly because of Daryl. I mean, just the realization of the efficiency of the three-point shot has opened things up.

It's opened things up. Some would say it's ruined basketball. Some would say it's completely changed it. I think it's more exciting. I don't know how. I go back and forth on it all the time. My fear is that everyone's going to eventually play the same way, which I don't want.

I still want weird teams. We still have weird teams now. Like Denver's a weird team. They're built around Jokic, who's this passing center, who's really unlike any player in the league. Well, that's why you'll have weird teams, right? Because you'll have people with weird skill sets. Yes.

And you'll build around those skill sets. But so here's an interesting thing. People, after Moneyball came out, now five years after Moneyball came out, people would ask me, yeah, it's smart, but it's making the game more boring. And if everybody plays

the analytically smart way to play in baseball, it's just a more, it's a duller game. And I think that's probably true. That, you know, shutting down the running game, bunts are out. I mean, and you end up with pitchers who throw a lot of strikeouts and guys who hit a lot of home runs and otherwise they strike out. And you end up, it's just a slower-

And only really fast guys steal and nobody else even really does it that much. Even tries. You know, it's become, and, well, in addition, the technology has really gutted the role of the umpire in baseball. He's just like not worth yelling at anymore. Yeah.

He hardly has any power. But, and so, but with the analytics in basketball and football, it's not as simple a story. It does, the game, if you had, so I'd rather watch a baseball game in 1975 than a baseball game now. They were more fun to watch. Interesting. I would not rather watch a basketball game in 1975. And I think basketball is just about as exciting as it's ever been. Yeah.

Right? And I certainly wouldn't want to watch a football game in 1975, then I think basketball is just about as exciting as it's ever been. Yeah. Right? And I certainly wouldn't want to watch a football game in 1975. It was like, you know, or Dave Osborne, three yards in a cloud of dust up the middle. You know, that kind of, it was an incredibly tedious game in some ways. And opening it up has made it so much more fun to watch. And that is, I mean, that's not purely analytical. It's strategically driven. It's like realizing you use a whole field and you're going to have a better offense.

I'm bummed out by what's happened with baseball. And look, it all makes sense and it's all logical. And this is the best way to evaluate players and what we see. But arguments are almost gone. You're right. Well, 20 years ago, Jeter versus Nomar was this awesome argument. And none of us were really equipped with facts.

There was no answer. The Boston fans and we were like, our guy's better. And the Yankee fans were like, well, our guy's more clutch. And we had stats, but not many of us knew all the actual stats. And now it's just like- One number, war. It's just surgical. Yeah. It's like Mike Trout is the best player in the league. Can I argue this? No. Here's all the evidence stats. And now it's just like- One number, war. It's just surgical. Yeah.

It's like Mike Trout is the best part of the league. Can I argue this? No. Here's all the evidence. It becomes like a murder trial where you're just presenting the DNA evidence. It's like, oh yeah, he did it. And I feel like that's what baseball

has turned into a lot of- Well, you can see it in the public interest, right? It's becoming- It's really hurt baseball. Really hurt baseball. Yeah. No question. It's a curious thing that the smart way to do it,

that knowledge and progress has killed interest in a thing. Well, it'd become, and I think I used to talk about this 10 years ago. My fear was that it was going to become algebra, where you just remember the formulas and the outcomes. And then instead of an argument, you would just list the outcomes. And the audience is so much more sophisticated now,

which is a good thing. But the bad thing is there's no give and take, which is why I still love basketball because like right now we have Harden versus Giannis. Right. MVP. Everyone's bringing out all their stats, which is fine. And that's part of it.

And the on-off court stuff and Giannis' defensive metrics which is fine. And that's part of it. And the on-off court stuff and the, and, uh, you know, Giannis' defensive metrics and what Harden means offensively to his team and usage rate, all these different things we can look at, or you can just watch all the games or you can merge both of those together. And it's still a really fun argument. There's no right answer, but like in baseball, it's like, is Mike Trout the MVP yeah here's why and then it's over yeah so I don't know

I don't know if that's better I miss the old days of me being like Noma Noma's better he just is and when was the last time you saw a manager

come out of the dugout absolutely infuriated and kicking base throwing bases around and kicking dirt on the umpire so you miss the time in the sort of era I miss all of that

I mean it was preposterous in some ways but but in other ways, it was a lot of fun to watch. It was theater, right? And now, you know, you just go to the replay. I feel like watching, knowing the numbers now is an essential part of watching. I still watch the Red Sox. I still love baseball. I watch Red Sox games.

I don't follow the whole league like I do with the NBA. I just watch the Red Sox. And I don't watch, I don't follow the whole league like I do with the NBA. I just watch the Red Sox. And I know a lot of the numbers. And I feel like I follow certain Twitter accounts that are really smart and will help stuff and be like,

whoa, Chris Sale's velocity is down. I'm like, that's not good. He's down to 88. Like this is stuff I never cared about 20 years ago. So in that way, it's more fun. But yeah,

I miss the arguments. One thing that does save baseball a bit is the randomness. There's so much luck in baseball. Yeah. And where the ball lands. There's so much luck about where the ball lands. It does stop it from being this pure science experiment. Well, you must hate the shift.

Well, the shift makes it more boring. I mean, it just means more outs. I hate the shift. Well, the shift makes it more boring. I mean, it just means more outs. I hate the shift. You're basically preventing somebody from doing what they're good at. It makes sense, but it also is just sucks. How would you change the, what rules would you change to make baseball more fun to watch?

That would be my first one. The shift? You can't do the shift. Oh. Just get that out. Would you draw little circles on the field that they have to stay in, like softball and pitchers? I just think it would have to be at least three guys on each side of the field.

It would be like an illegal defense. Yeah, exactly. People hate this one. People get really mad at me for this one, but I am a big fan of the line that nobody could take a lead pass, so we never have pick up throws, pick off throws again. I'm good with never seeing another pick off throw in my life. So it's like, you can take a lead up to seven feet. Right. And that's it. There's the line. You can't go by it until the ball's released. Or if you go by it, you got to keep going or whatever it is, but there's no like dancing, getting further and further off the bag. Like just get rid of that.

How do you feel about moving the pitcher's mound back? I'm not, I'm against that. I would rather get rid of the specialty relievers, which they're doing next year. You have to pitch to three batters. You've seen that one? Yeah. Yeah. That one's cool.

They got to figure out why all these pitchers are just getting hurt now constantly. If you, if I had to guess it's because of their childhoods. I mean, they're specialized at such an early age that overuse is just a problem. You would think. I mean, they're not playing three sports anymore. They're playing one. I mean, I just watch the way Little League works where I am.

And it's amazing the strain on the kids' arms, the ones who can throw, the ones who are going to be like professional baseball players. And they're playing not four months a year or five months a year, but 12 months or nine or ten months a year. I mean, it's amazing any rotator cuff has survived.

Yeah, and on the other hand, though, it's amazing now that we know all the stuff we know that some of the guys from the 70s and 80s also survived. That we did like 170. Like Nolan Ryan had games where he'd throw like 190 pitches. Then he's pitching three days later.

I know. So yeah, we're still learning this stuff. But the pitchers thing, I think they throw so hard. The arm's not really equipped for what the body gets it to do. It's not. I watch it with my son now. My son's in a travel league where they... How old is he?

He's 11. And they're really careful because you have to play in the rec league too and they monitor the amount of innings you throw. So I have a 12-year-old son, so I know exactly what you're talking about. But what's weird is they... You could be like a non... Like last year, he was a non-travel kid, so he was throwing more innings than the travel kids.

But now he's a travel kid, so he's more protected. So that whole part was weird too. So he's good. He's all right. Yeah, he's good. He's good enough to be on a travel team. How are you as a dad? I'm great now.

I was bad for a while. When you were bad, how did it manifest? So my daughter, my daughter's a big soccer player. And when she was like eight, I was like too into it. I had to like take, because I just love rooting for my team. What was the moment you realized

you were too into it? I'm asking for a reason because I went through this too. Oh, is this a, you know, just like I had the, I had a streak. I didn't ever express it.

I wasn't stupid enough to like yell at umpires or yell at coaches or even ask like why they weren't, you know, in the right, but I didn't, I didn't get involved in any way that way. Although I did coach them, but coach them all in the rec league. Yeah. But I do notice there's like a brain chemical thing when I'm watching my kids play sports. Yeah. It's unlike any other sensation I experienced. Well, cause it's like all of your favorite teams combined into one human being. That's exactly,

it's the same, it's the A's, this is exactly right. This is why like the Trailblazers fans are crazy. Like this is, it's, they're like sports parents. They only have the one team,

the Utah Jazz, they only have one team. So all of their teams are in this one team. Yeah, this is, so this is, that's a good point. So what was your one moment? I didn't have one moment i but i had i i've had what the way i reacted to it the way i

i like all i couldn't do anything about the brain chemistry i still want to i wanted to see my kids play i love watching the play they're great it's terrific but But I don't want them to see my facial expressions or even hear what I'm muttering. So I make sure I remove myself like far enough. So I never watch the game from the stands. And I usually just pace in the outfield. Really? Oh, absolutely. For the softball games. For the basketball games, it's harder because you're trapped in the gym. Yeah. But I like trying to find a corner in the gym where nobody's noticing me. I hide. What I can't do is sit down with you and have a decent conversation. While your kid's playing? Can't do it. Simply can't do it. I can't do it either. You know that feeling. It's a very odd feeling. There's almost nothing else in my life I do where

I couldn't hold a decent conversation while I'm doing it. Watching my kids play sports is just about it. So I understand. So I'm completely sympathetic to like, when it goes off the rails, I know where that's coming from. It's such a powerful thing. I shouldn't, I mean, my kids aren't going to be professional athletes. They're going to get to go to college, even if they can't play sports. I don't have any I mean, my kids aren't going to be professional athletes. Yeah. They're going to get to go to college even if they can't play sports. I don't have any kind of like financial investment in this. It's a purely. Yeah, that's true. But it doesn't, when I think about it in the calmness of my study afterwards, I think you're an insane person.

Right. To feel the way you felt while you were out there. But everybody, all the parents feel that way, and they manifest it in different ways. The smart ones learn how to hide it or go hide themselves. My daughter was at National a couple weeks ago, and her first game got delayed for 25 minutes because two games earlier, parents on both sides of whatever, they ended up getting this huge brawl, and it delayed everything. And I was like, this is insane. So I can remember when my, my oldest is now a freshman in college, but when she was playing

travel softball, when she was 10, when I was just starting, we were just into this travel is getting serious. And I was just starting to have the brain chemistry thing go on. And I, we were in a, we were playing in Tahoe at a tournament and it was this beautiful field with essentially a forest behind the center field fence. And, uh, so I just thought, I'm just going to go stand in the forest so nobody can see me. Cause I'm so, I'm going so crazy. And I got out there and there were two other dads who were already there. Like, this is where you come.

You just can't take it. Yeah. Like hiding behind a redwood tree. So nobody can see you yelling. It's like going to AA or something. Yeah, no, it's exactly. There really should be a version of AA for parents of kids.

Yeah, my moment, my daughter, she was always a really good athlete. And when she was like eight, it was the first time she played travel soccer because that's the first year you really do it. And I was just too into it. And I remember she missed a penalty kick in a game and I was just so mad about it after, cause she rushed her routine. And then on the way home, we're just like arguing. And, and, uh, and then I read, I somehow randomly read some, I, I was like, am I doing this wrong?

And I read some stuff online. And one of the recurring themes over and over again was like, your kids should never dread the car ride home if they don't play well. They don't want to talk about the game right after. Another sign is like, is your kid looking at you during the game, constantly seeking you out to see if you approve or disapprove what's going on? And I'm like, oh, I'm hitting all these checkpoints. This is or disapprove what's going on. And I'm like, Oh, I'm hitting all these checkpoints. This is bad. I need to fix this. And I fixed it. And recently my daughter was talking about, um, uh, uh, another parent on a team who's a little overboard. And she was like, that was like you four years ago before you became a good sports

parent. So she completely figured it out. Yeah. And she's only 13, but she knows that whatever I was doing was wrong and now I do it okay, I guess. But yeah, it's tough. It's really means, I don't know what, like you said, there's a brain chemistry part of it that I don't even know how to explain. Cause it's like all your favorite teams in one person. You're also related to the person. There's also the dream of maybe someday this could lead to something great. I don't know what's going on, but it makes people nuts. It makes people nuts in ways. I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't feel anything like that when I'm watching the Warriors or the Rockets or the Saints or the A's or one of these teams I have four

or love. I'm there up to a point. But yeah, and they lose, they lose. And I get over it. I'm most excited to a point. And they lose, they lose. And I get over it. I'm most excited when my daughter's team does well. But I will say when the Pats came back against Atlanta, it did kind of feel like the Pats are another one of my kids. Is that right?

That's why you do what you do. And I don't. Well, still, the kids thing trumps all, though. I would imagine a friend of mine had two sons on this team in Scituate that won the state title. And they were so into it. And the whole town's going, like, when something like that happens, I don't know how that could compete with, like, guys wearing some jersey that you're rooted for. Right. rooted for you right so it's surprising to me that given that any given weekend millions of american parents are out there obsessing about this whatever the sport is they're cut their

little culture subcultures in every sport in softball i mean i just you know it's it's huge but nobody but there's no one in my social circle outside of softball who who i would intersect with like they don't understand why i'm off in modesto california or right spending 25 nights of last summer in a hotel in irvine california with with these travel this travel ball team or by the way irvine great great location for sports it's they have the giant outdoor mall there they have the giant outdoor i was i was judged by locations oh, we can do this between games. You can basically walk from the airport to your hotel. Yeah, it's great.

And there's a lot of fields. Yeah. Lots of fields. But it's surprising to me nothing really good's been either written or there's no TV shows. This world has not been described. It's been left alone for some reason. People have tried and failed. There's been some bad ones over it.

And it's hard because ultimately you need really good kid actors and all this stuff. But I think what's interesting about like, my daughter has been on the same team for a while now. And we just get to know all the parents. And the parents are just totally different at different jobs and they're people that probably wouldn't ever hang out other than this thing yeah and uh and it's just kind of cool because you the other part is you're just watching these kids grow up and they go from you know the difference between age 8 and age 13 is significant yeah you know we kids, my daughter's 5'8 now. Like, people knew her when she was 8.

You know, they look like women now. And it's, all of it is just jarring. Yeah. That, to watch it, like, unfold that fast. It's got to be hard being Bill Simmons' kid playing a sport. No, it's fine. That doesn't enter into it?

I don't think so. I'm not famous enough. I would think it would be harder to be, like, LeBron James' kid. Well, yes. Especially if you have his last name. And you play his sport. We had my daughter's basketball team was playing the school that LeBron's kids go to.

And the game before her game, LeBron's younger kid was in, the sixth grade game. And the whole gym was packed. And LeBron was there. And it was, I was like, wow, this is, this kid's 11. This is intense. He's good, but it's just like a weird thing. You know, when you're 11, you're 12, you're still figuring out who you are. It's, it's, it's really hard to go into your parents' business. Uh, be nice if it was another sport. Well, LeBron's the older kid is really good. No one's going to be LeBron.

No, nobody's going to be LeBron, but we've seen... So the best example, right, is Ken Griffey Jr. Right. Because Ken Griffey Sr. was really good. Or Steph Curry. Yeah, I guess Steph Curry is a better example. Yeah. Steph Curry is a better example. It was another, yeah.

Yeah. Steph Curry is a better example. But it'll happen, but it's usually, it hasn't happened yet with somebody who was like really famous. Right. Like it was Del Curry, Ken Griffey Sr. These were like really good players,

but they weren't like Kevin Garnett or I don't know, Reggie Jackson or something. So it hasn't happened. Right. I wonder if LeBron has the same feelings you and I have watching his kid play. I could tell just from the one game, yes. You think so? Yeah, he was definitely intense.

Although it's a little different because he had a crew of people taking Instagram videos of his kid and all that stuff. Let's take a break. Let's take a quick break to talk about SimpliSafe Home Security, one of my favorites. You guys start giving me crap. You say I like SimpliSafe just because they're from Boston. That's not true.

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Back to Michael Lewis. All right, we're back. We were just saying how- We aren't off the subject of our children yet. No, this is the last thing about being a sports parent is the amount of time you get with your kids is the best part of it for me. Oh, it's-

Having your kids trapped in a car. Or a little hotel room in a crappy town. Yeah, just that, those to me is like, that's the biggest win of all. I still feel like that's the only time I know I have my daughter trapped for driving an hour and a half somewhere. And that's when I can find out all the real information about what's going on in her life. What I love is my now just turned 17 year old daughter who's a softball player. Even now, she wants me to drive her to her practice.

She can drive herself. Wow. But it's, I don't say anything. I get up at six in the morning and I'll drive her to practice just because it's an hour drive to get to her travel team. And it's an hour where we just turn the car together. And she would, I mean, in theory, she would rather do anything than spend an hour with me. Right. But, but there's this like little space we have where she just

accepts that's our, we spend time together. And, and I know my kids so much better because of it. I mean, there are a lot of ways to do this other than sports, but, but sport, it really has been very handy. The other great thing about kids' sports is it does keep them, what they aren't doing because they're playing sports is a great thing. I mean, it like fills this void that would otherwise be filled by horrible stuff.

By social media and drama and all that stuff. Yeah, I would add a third thing. I think it's really important for kids to fail in the society that we've created where nobody ever wants their kid to fail or experience any sort of trauma in any way, which is right. Because we've just gotten better and better

at being parents and protecting our kids. But it's also okay to be the kid who made the worst foul in the basketball game. And it's also okay to, to be the kid who, you know, made the worst foul in the basketball game. And you lie, you know, it's okay to, you're going to have a traumatic moment in your life.

You're not going to avoid, if you play competitive sports, you're not going to avoid that moment. You're going to miss a penalty kick. Yes. Miss a free throw. You're going to miss a free throw. You're going to commit a foul at the worst possible time.

And how you deal with that is going to help shape your life. And I think that's what I like that my kid loses sometimes and has tough losses and learns that it's okay. And the other thing, the teamwork part of it is also underrated, just like, especially as our society becomes more narcissistic and it's the selfie culture. Yeah. It's nice to have teammates and to rely on other people constantly. And like, you can't succeed without the help, how you interact with these people, which is why I still love sports. Yeah. I like that that still exists in some form. Me too.

I agree. I wrote a whole book about my high school baseball coach. I remember. The sole point of it was, I mean, there was many points, but that wasn't the sole point. But one of the big things in the middle of it was people didn't, a lot of parents didn't understand what he was doing. But when he was putting kids through a difficult experience.

But the whole point was for them to experience failure and recover from it. Yeah. And it is a big thing you get out of sports, that ability to kind of bounce. And that you don't, you're not encouraged really to get anywhere else. But you can and you can't. It's so woven into sports that you can't avoid it. And I agree with you. I love that about it.

So the first sports book you wrote was Moneyball. First sports book I wrote was Moneyball. And then right after that, I wrote that little, it was a magazine article. It got turned into a book called Coach. Yeah. So Moneyball was, I mean, it was moneyball then right after that i wrote that little it was a magazine article it got turned into a book called coach yeah uh so moneyball was i mean it was 2003 and then blindside so when moneyball the sports i've only done three moneyball coach the blindside in that order so moneyball was you've written pieces and other things but never like you could have written a basketball book you chose not to yes uh because you had basically 40 of it done it was you could have the shane chapter. You chose not to. Yes. Because you had basically 40% of it done. You could have the Shane chapter.

You did a Daryl chapter for one of your other books. Right, the front of the Undoing Project. But you could have done, you could have four more chapters, you have a book. You could have done that kind of book. Yeah. But it wasn't a single narrative book.

You could have concentrated on like six or seven people in the world of the NBA and done some big picture or something. Yeah, I didn't think, it's never, I've never really, the only idea I had for a basketball book, which I abandoned, but I did flirt with, is I thought, and this was like a decade ago. This was more than, a little more than a decade ago, when I was hanging out with the Toohey family in Memphis for The Blind Side. Yeah. So Sean Toohey, who is the Tim McGraw character in the movie,

the dad in the family, Sean and I had grown up together. He was the catcher on the baseball team and I was the pitcher on the baseball team. Right. We were from kindergarten to 12th grade, we were in the same class. And he was a,

he was a wonderful athlete. He still holds records at Ole Miss as a basketball player, but he was the announcer of the Memphis Grizzlies while I was working. He still holds records at Ole Miss as a basketball player. But he was the announcer of the Memphis Grizzlies while I was working. He's just the color guy. Wow. He was just doing it for fun. Yeah.

Because he had a business. He had a really successful career as an entrepreneur. But I got to watch the Grizzlies up close. And I thought it was the first time I really got to see a coach have to manage the NBA players. And I thought that might be an interesting management book. To spend a year on a bench with an NBA coach who has so little leverage over the players. Yeah. There are a lot of people in the world of management who have that problem.

They can't, they don't really, can't really control their employees. University deans or guys, I mean, anybody in the tech sector. Like, your employees are these engineers who can leave the next day for a better job somewhere else. I mean, how you manage that situation where they have to voluntarily buy into what you're doing. Where you're essentially, you're notionally the boss, but you've got to sell them on the idea that you're the boss. Well, and they all make way more money than you. And they all make more money than you. They don't, and they all think you don't know what you, you know, I mean, it's just, it's so hard to acquire authority in that environment.

Well, Popovich is really the only one who was able to sustain it for more than four years. Yes. So he's, he would have been that, I thought. But he never, what's weird is he either never would have talked to you or he would have loved the idea and said like, let's do it, but you can't release it until I'm retired or something like that. But that might've been worth doing.

But that was the idea. I thought I wanted to go sit on the bench next to him. And then I thought, actually I'd rather watch my kid play softball. So it was just- Who was the coach? Was it- It was Popovich.

Oh, so you were gonna do it with Popovich? Yeah, that's what I was- I thought it was gonna be with a Memphis coach. No, no, I was watching the problem with the Memphis coach. Oh, and then you thought it should be with Popovich. Oh, so you were going to do it with Popovich? Yeah, that's what I was going to do. I thought it was going to be with a Memphis coach. No, no. I was watching The Problem with the Memphis coach. Oh, and then you thought it should be with Popovich. I got you. Yeah. It was clear even then that Popovich was the guy who had somehow... God, that would have been an amazing book. It might still be. Because the other thing is he's just such an interesting guy. I think I've told this story on the podcast before, so forgive me, audience. But I did TV once with Avery Johnson and the Spurs were in town and he was going to go

out to dinner with us afterwards. And he was long retired. He hadn't been on the Spurs for 10 years. Gets this text from Pop. He's like, I got to go. We have a team dinner. And it was the Spurs were, they're having dinner that night and Pop's like, you're coming. And it was like, he was still on the team.

He's like, I can't turn down Pop, I'm going. And it was, it was just became so clear why that culture has been sustainable just by this one moment. Yeah, there's something about him. Yeah. And the way he goes about his job that's peculiar. Cause Steve Kerr feels the same way about him.

Well, Kerr emulates him. Right, right. But in a much, much more impossible era. Yeah, a more difficult era, but that's his role model. Yes. The thing is now with 2019, and this is a problem that's now plaguing the league, it's just so impossible to keep everybody happy. And there's so many outside forces now. Not that there weren't before. You go back to the 60s and the 50s,

we had real racism. And those were different forces that probably affected a team. But the way it is now, it's so tough to get people to fall in line to their roles, which is why I like Houston this year because it's one of the few teams that has figured it out. But next year it could flip.

And the three guys who were the world players suddenly be like, now what about me? But I look at what Kerr's facing with the Warriors heading into these playoffs with Durant's got one foot out the door. Clay Thompson's a free agent. Draymond's a ticking time bomb. They've already won twice.

And it's like, how do you manage all that? Well, nothing can last. We'll all die sooner or later. Nothing lasts, yeah. But back away from it, that sport feels so healthy to me. It's the one American sport that might actually be a global sport. Like soccer.

And for a bunch of reasons. This is why no teams are for sale. Because all of these guys, all the rich guys see what you just said. They're like, why would I sell? Why would you sell? I think it's going to get bigger and bigger. We might be in China and Japan and Africa and Greece with League Pass for 100 places.

You might still buy into the NFL and you might still buy into Major League Baseball, but neither one of them are anything like as healthy a business. I mean, both of them have- It's crazy. The business has never been healthier and the league from a competitive standpoint

has never been in a weirder place because the stars now all just deciding, I'm in it for me now, which they should, I guess. I don't know. Should they? I don't know. Well, you're going to have, like you see this week

with Dirk and Wade are retiring and Dirk spent 21 years with the same team that's just never gonna happen again right and you're in this situation now where guys are just gonna

bounce around well you know Curry's been with the Warriors he may spend his career so he might be the last guy right yeah so could he play 21 years

I don't know yeah you're right Curry might be the one guy who does that I still think it matters to belong to a city and to have that connection, but other people might not. LeBron, obviously, he came back to Cleveland five years ago

and that was a big part of it. I'm coming home. And then he left again. So I don't know. That connection, I think, is going to be with the players really more than the teams with fans now. Where your son is like, I'm a Durant guy. I just follow Durant wherever he goes versus I'm a Warriors guy.

He's a Warriors guy. But what if Durant leaves? So he stays Warriors? Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay. He's a little torn between the Warriors and the Rockets because he's gotten to know Daryl. That's another thing that happens.

Sports bigamy. Yes. Where people have like two, three teams. So this is funny. Daryl Morey came out for a Warriors-Rockets game maybe four years ago. So my son was maybe eight. And he came wearing all his Warriors stuff to sit with Daryl, who's the only Rockets fan in Oracle Arena. Yeah.

And Daryl hung this little pass around his neck that let him go anywhere, including if he could have gone in the locker rooms probably if he wanted to. Right. So he went back in the tunnel. So Daryl won him over. And there was, well, at the moment, yes, but he's still in all his warrior stuff. And we walk back in the tunnel, and he wanders off on his own. And he kind of collides with the entire Rockets team, coming out of their locker room to go onto the court. And they're kind of pulling the shorts. They're waiting to run out on the court.

And they look down at this little kid. And it was like, was it Capella? Because it was, but it was, I mean, there were two like seven-foot guys. And my son's looking up at them. And they go, they kind of start picking at his warrior stuff. They said, what is this? I said, there were two like seven foot guys and my son's looking up at them and they go, they kind of start picking at his warrior stuff. They said, what is this? I said, who are you for?

And he goes, I'm for both. And ever since then, when he goes to a Warriors Rockets game, he wears a red on the top and Warriors on the, red on the bottom and blue and yellow on the top. But yeah, sports big in me. That's right. People have, people. A lot of sports big in me.

People's allegiance. Tommy over here has like 20 teams. Yeah. No. He's got Odebo. It's a portfolio. It's a portfolio approach, right? You realize you're managing your emotions.

If you have enough of them that you're kind of for, some of them will be left in the playoffs that you have someone to root for in the playoffs. It's not, it's not a bad way to manage your sport's emotional life. So do you like the player movement? It's a topic I keep talking, I'm completely fascinated by. Giannis might be another guy who stays in the same city for the entire time, by the way. We should mention him. Because I don't think he cares about any of this stuff.

But in general, do you like this stuff or do you think it's stupid? I don't mind the player movement. I like, I just like to keep it interesting. And, and- Well, certainly he's kept it interesting. He's kept it interesting. I, you know, I've stopped watching baseball games. I just don't watch it anymore.

And that was a sport I played like growing up. I mean, and, but basketball, I find, I still find endlessly fascinating and it's okay that they move around. It doesn't bother me that much. They certainly figured out how to turn it into a 12-month year spoiler. I know just from the ringer standpoint, it's been going from where we were at Grantland to the start of the decade and how we regarded basketball just for content versus where we are now, where it's like, it's 365 days a year for us. Right. And people want to read it. They, there's a voracious appetite for basketball content.

Right. And it's great. I love it. I wish you'd written the coach book though. I guess the closest thing Jack McCallum wrote a book about the sons in the mid 2000s, seven seconds or less. And there's a lot of Dan Tony stuff in there. It's not a full book about Dan Tony, but it's deals with some of the same stuff you're talking about. Right. But Deep Dive would have been cool. The, you know,

one of the things that's changed in my interest in sports, and this is just growing up, it's also a function of the books I've written. But I think it's just, it's also changed for a lot of people is that you now enter the sport, not just through the eyes of the players

or even the coach, but also through the eyes of the players or even the coach, but also through the GMs. Everybody's a GM. Yeah. Whereas before you didn't really pay much, you know, when I was a kid, who paid, I wasn't even aware of the existence of a GM. There were these players, there was the coach,

and you didn't spend, the whole talent, evaluation, acquisition, it was, I mean, the GMs weren't paid like they're paid now. They weren't superstars like they are now. Most of them were really terrible. I mean, they're just like winging it. Former players who like, you know. I like this guy.

Here's a giant contract. That's right. There wasn't a science of being a GM. It wasn't recognized. I mean, it wasn't the same skill set, right? So now you're entering it through the sport, through the eyes of the GM. The player movement is just kind of

part of the entertainment, right? Well, that was one of the reasons I really loved, I really loved Moneyball, the movie. It was great. You had to be like delighted. I mean, that was... I felt... That was in limbo for what, five, six years?

Seven. But I want to get to that one second. The only thing I was going to say was there's that scene early on when Brad Pitt goes in and the old guard is just like, get this fucking guy out of here. This, we do it our way. And he has,

that guy gets kicked out of the meeting. And, um, it's this symbolic old school versus new school moment, which I just really liked because that's really what was happening in sports in real time in the early 2000s. It was a war between the front office

and the field management, right? And it was Sandy Alderson, who was a head of Billy Bean at the Oakland A's, who sort of said, in what other industry does middle management boss around the upper management? And what happened was the front office has seized control of the process now

because they're spending the owner's money and the owners have kind of figured out that the owners faced a choice that they didn't really own people to manage your money, your assets really well? Or do you kind of be friendly and chummy with the players and the coaches? You become one of the boys. Are you buying this thing so you can go in the locker room and sniff jocks? Or are you buying this thing because you're going to build a champion and run it like you run your business in a smart way? And the owners have drifted towards the latter, right? A lot of them come out of the way they make their billions of dollars has changed. They're no longer like old manufacturing guys. They're who used to put-

Or inherited. Right. Yeah, the jack car business. Tech guys and finance guys as data guys who actually hear that argument about how we manage the data of the business is, in a funny way, the business. And the price they pay for it is they aren't quite as, you know, they aren't one with the team. Yeah, there's a coldness to it.

There's a coldness to it. That's right. It's funny. I used to write about new owner syndrome, especially in basketball. A new guy would take over a team. And it's usually somebody, especially in the NBA, it's usually newer owners, people who didn't make money the way the NFL guys make it, whether they made it in tech or whatever. And they came in like, well, I succeeded here. I'm going to succeed here.

This is going to be great. I have some ideas. And they have that two-year stretch where it just goes terribly. And then they eventually realize, oh. Like even Steve Ballmer had this for a couple of years. He's like, I'll make Doc the GM and the coach at the same time. And then after three years, he sat right on that couch and he's like, yeah, I had no idea what I was doing

it's completely different but they all go through it and the stubbornness of rich people thinking I'm super good at this I know what I'm doing it's hilarious that's one source of their problems and their rationality

the other is you don't buy a sports team to be invisible you buy a sports team because be invisible. You buy a sports team because you want everybody kind of loving you. Yeah. It's like, it's like a yacht for everybody. It's a, yes. Come look at my yacht. Yeah. And, and when you're a sports team, even if it's being really well run, if it isn't performing in the short term well, and people are saying nasty things about you in the newspaper, that's the opposite of the reason you bought the sports team. And they react to that.

James Dolan's the best example of that. It's endless though. Like he's, they get super stubborn. Yeah. Like Sarver's like that too with the Suns. Some of the people you would think like, well, that can't be fun for them to own the team. They're just getting shit on.

Right. But their attitude is like, fuck you. You're not, I'm not going to sell because you guys think I should sell. Watch this. All on the team for 40 years. It becomes very, they get so competitive about it.

Owners fascinate me to no end. Especially if the Knicks ever actually became for sale, which I think they're still secretly for sale, but I'd be so fascinated to see who wanted to buy that team because that's the biggest toy you can have in New York. Yeah.

You're courtside. You're in control of all the seats. That'd be so much fun. You're the guy. Yeah, it would be so much fun. I watched what happened. And there's only upside now because they've been bad for so long. You've seen it because you're near Golden State.

The guy who owns Golden State, Joe Lacob, nobody knew who he was eight years ago. Right. He was just another rich guy. Right. Now he's like the guy out of all these like ceos and eddie q and all these people that are these heavy hitters in socon valley but they're all coming to his arena yeah so can't put a price on that that's why the prices are gonna keep going up no if i were a billionaire that's what i i that that's

i'd like i justify the indulgence of buying a sports team by spending all the rest of my time doing good works. Right. Giving money away. But the fun thing to do would be to buy the Knicks. Buy an NBA team. The worst thing would be to buy a soccer team. That seems like there's very little upside and giant downside

because their fans are freaking nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You screw up their team. Like really, your life's a living hell. And people don't care about soccer here in the same way they care about basketball and baseball and football. No, they don't.

I do wonder though, at some point, all the rich guys are going to look at the MLS and wonder what would happen if they threw some real money into it. Well, you're seeing this already that they're doing it in Europe. Yeah. I mean, they're rich American owners

of European soccer teams. Right. Billy Bean owns a couple they're rich American owners of European soccer teams. Right. Billy Bean owns a couple of soccer teams, pieces of them. Oh, so the Moneyball movie. Yes, the Moneyball movie. So initially it was going to be, was it Soderbergh? Yes. No, the story.

So the story of the Moneyball movie, the beginning of the Moneyball movie story is Billy Bean calling me a month after the book came out and say, I just want to let you know that I got calls about selling my life rights for a movie. And he says, there's no way I'm going to let anybody make a movie of this. Yeah. I didn't know you, he didn't know I was going to,

he was going to be the center of the book. I mean, he didn't until he read the book, he didn't know what I was doing. Oh, seriously? Seriously. He just gave you time?

Lots of time, but he knew that I was also spending lots of time with other franchises. Yeah. And I was just doing that to make sure that he was as different as I thought he was. Yeah. From his point of view, it was like, well, he's wandering around. I'll be part of this book. He was the center of the book in the way he was.

And the shit he got on the back end of it, I mean, he was willing to fight the fight. But it was like, I wasn't looking for this attention. Yeah. So he said, we're not going to do a movie. Just want to let you know. And I said to him, and I really meant it. I said, they're never going to make the movie. I hadn't had any movies made at that point. I said, I've had people- You got a one in a hundred shot. I didn't even think that. I'd sold 20 magazine pieces and books to the movies and everybody said they were going to make them when they bought them, and they never got made. I said, no, just sell it, and you get free money until they decide they're not going to make it.

And I gave him a list of all the kind of the things that I had done that never got made. And he goes, that's interesting. And so in the end, he says, oh, we'll do this. And for seven years, it was either every 12 months or every 18 months when they had to renew the option, he'd call and he'd laugh. He'd say, this is fantastic. It's like free money. Because you get another check.

You get another check. And then- But at some point, Soderbergh, it got serious. But that was seven years later. Yeah. And one day he calls me up and he says, Billy calls me up and he says, you bastard. He said, Brad Pitt just called and he wants to come to my house. And he says, my wife's putting on makeup and the babysitter's

wearing a dress. And he said, this thing's going to happen. I said, I'll believe it when I see it. And then it got screwed up. Soderbergh started to make something that the studio decided they didn't want to make. And it kind of started and then fell apart in moments. And then Bennett Miller picked it up. And the truth is, the reason the movie got made is Brad Pitt had an obsession with it. And he had an obsession with it, I think, for a curious reason. Billy Dean was this great, good-looking, he looked exactly like a Hall of Fame baseball player should look and never does look. Yeah. And he was cast as a superstar future baseball player

when he was in high school. And it screwed up his life. You know, it's all worked out, but he really was supposed to go to Stanford on a football scholarship and replace John Elway, a quarterback. And he would have been, I think in his mind, that was something he'll always regret, not having done that. Instead, when the Mets drafted him in the first round and said,

oh, you're going to be a famous baseball player. It turned out he wasn't going to be a famous baseball player. I think Brad Pitt read the story of Billy Bean and said, I feel a bit of this because I look like a leading man. Everybody keeps casting me as a leading man. And what I really am is a character actor. Yeah. And I- That's the great irony of his career. He's like one of the best character actors we have,

but he's an A-list actor. But he gets put, yes. And he gets put in a situation because the world misperceives him just because of how he looks. Yeah. And I think he had a sense, he could play that part because he felt that how he looks. And I think he had a sense that he could

play that part because he felt that part a bit. And he forced the movie. And my experience with the movies is that there are a handful of people in Hollywood who can say, I really, really want to do this. And eventually it gets done. And he was one of them. He's incredible in that movie. I actually think that's his best movie. We did this podcast here called The Rewatchables. And that was one of the first ones we did. And one of the things I like about that movie is it's just Brad Pitt being a star. I like, every once in a while, you have to have those movies where the guy's just like, it's like Tom Cruise and Jerry Maguire.

It's like, I'm a star. Come with me for two hours. I'm just going to be a star. And on top of all the other stuff going on in that movie, it's really a Brad Pitt movie. And the actors, everybody's cast really well. It was beautifully done. You got Philip Seymour Hoffman. You must have been delighted,

because you're probably thinking worst case scenario like the whole time, right? They're making this movie. They're going to fuck it up. Well, yes. You know, let me tell you, with the movies, here's what I think. Because up to that point, well, what had happened, I guess, is two years before.

I guess that came out after Blindside. It did. And Blindside was really good too. Blindside was huge. How did you do this? So the Blindside, that was the other thing I think that probably loosened the purse strings a bit for the Moneyball. Yeah. The Blindside cost like $20 million to make, nothing.

And they've grossed half a billion dollars. And same thing, a big star in an awesome performance and an awesome role. But the way that happened was John Lee Hancock, the writer and director, who's terrific and did a terrific job and had a script that is the movie that I read. And I said, my God, you've done it. You've cracked the code. It's going to be fantastic. I'm going to laugh. I'm going to cry. Everybody's going to love this. He trundled that thing all over Hollywood, and nobody wanted to make it. And the only reason it got made was that Fred Smith,

who is the founder of Federal Express, FedEx, his son was dating the Toohey's family's daughter in Memphis throughout this whole, they got married since. They're now married. But watch the whole Michael Orr story unfold before his eyes. And he said, that's a great story. I'll pay for it. I'll make it.

But nobody's going to get paid. Everybody can have a stake in the movie. Sandra Bullock can have a piece of the profits. The director can have a piece of the profits. But we're not going to do this $5 million up front to be in a movie. And so he made it on a shoestring, and it just exploded. And that made it easier to get Moneyball made, I think.

And Sandra Bullock wins in that scenario because that movie made like a half a million dollars. Half a billion dollars. Half a billion dollars, I mean. Yeah. You know, I think probably she's had to act a little less. I mean, I think the point of it, but I have been so lucky

in the people who've been attracted to the books. Yeah, but that's skill for you too, though, because you pick really good topics. But I don't. You've been over and over again. There are an awful lot of good books that became bad movies, right? And there are bad books that became good movies.

But in these cases, there's so much accident and the extent, if I was going to give myself credit for anything, it would be having nothing to do with them. That saying to the people who come along, I understand you got to break it and remake it. And it's a different thing. And I'm not going to be sitting on your shoulder, but I'm not going to give you advice either. I'm not giving you my script. No. Here's my version of the script. Or my notes. You just go do what you're going to do, and God bless you. And give them ownership of it. But there's no luck in having Adam McKay

fall in love with Big Short. I mean, that's so lucky. Right. At a good point in his career, too. It was perfect. Like he wanted to get serious and but also keep some of the humor that had made him who he is and it was like a perfect movie what bennett miller did with moneyball is magical when i saw it i thought he did a bunch of clever things

like so one of the things is running through that story is the way people misperceive the world around them based on appearances and the way he took theiseum, which has got to be the nastiest arena in pro sports, right? And made it beautiful. Yeah. It's like- He used the shadows to his favor somehow. So he surfaced and, oh, you saw that in a different way in the same way like the Oakland A's saw players

in a different way. Yeah. He was weaving through his story, the big theme, and the way he shot it. It was brilliant. So I've been lucky. The other thing with Moneyball, it's so funny. It just becomes the go-to phrase now for anytime analytics is used in sports.

Anybody's adding or multiplying. If there's any sort of innovation at all that includes stats, we're like, oh, the Moneyball of this, Moneyball of that. It's just like thrown around constantly. Yes. How'd you come up with that title? you remember uh i remember exactly uh what happened i came back from the draft rooms where i was watching the oakland a's plan their draft for for that 2002 um and i was filled with energy for the story i'd had a i realized it was a book

up at that point i didn't know what it. I realized it was a book. Up to that point, I didn't know what it was. I thought it was a magazine piece maybe. And I'd spent, at that point, a couple of months mainly with the A's. And I got back to my computer and I thought, I'm going to tell my editor, I'm going to break the news to him that I'm going to write a sports book. But at that point, I was so excited by what they were doing with the kids in the draft. I thought, this isn't one book, it's two books. The first book is this book about what the A's are doing now. And the second book is I'm going to follow these kids through their careers and write a sequel about what happens to these lab rats in the science. So the first time they're

going to draft them just on data rather than what the scouts think um and they they're perceiving the kids differently even than they perceive themselves so much so that like they had a first round draft choice so when they called him to say they're going to make a first round draft choice he thought it was a crank call uh he thought his he would hang he hung up he thought his teammates at the university alabama were making fun of him um so i wrote my editor a note. I said, I'm really sorry about this. Just brace yourself. I'm not going to write just a sports book for my next book. I'm going to write, it's going to be the next two books. And I'm only writing the first one so I can write the second one. And I said, I had to have a title. At that moment, I thought, because I knew, I thought

the second was going to be called Underdogs about these guys. And I threw Moneyball down on the page and I thought, that sounds right. I'll live with that. And so I sent it in. And the editor got on the phone with me the next morning and said, you know, this is a great idea. You need to do something different. And this is a, go for it. And I wrote the first one. I never wrote the second one.

And the email said, I'm only writing the first one. I never wrote the second one. And the email said, I'm only writing the first one so I can write the second one. But the first one ate the second one. I mean, Moneyball, it got- Yeah, I don't know. It was no way to- I think it turned out the right way.

I think it turned out the right way. I did a lot of work on the second one. Great title though. I love titles. You know, but I'm a big, I was, people make fun of me around here about, I love titling things and coming up with titles. Me too.

We spent months trying to come up with the ringer really and even in the last second we weren't 100 sure but i think it was the right title but we we had a whiteboard we're just constantly saying it and putting in different scenarios titles are really important they're really important but also the thing itself ends up affecting how people perceive the title. Yeah. Well, that is true. The man makes the clothes a bit. Well, we had Grantland was one of the people really hated it. And then it became a good title. It became like the right title because you could remember it. Right.

All right. I had a lot more to talk to you. We only have an hour though. Let's talk about your podcast really quick. Next time, come on and we'll talk about where the world's going. You're in LA every once in a while, right? I've got a TV show I'm working on now. And I'm going to we'll talk about where the world's going. You're in LA every once in a while, right? I've got a TV show I'm working on now and I'm going to be down here a lot the next couple of months. I'm totally happy to come back. I want to talk about all the stuff

you've written about. You know what I'd love to do is come back. The podcast is once a week for the next seven weeks, towards the end of it. All right. Because I want to talk about the stuff you've written about different economies and different countries and the move toward politics and also how you pick your topics. Because I think that was always, Gladwell pointed this out early with you. Because he'd be like, you know, Michael Lewis, man.

He was always like, Joe, he's like, I don't know. He picks these topics. I'm just like, it's so jealous. How does he know that? How does he know that was, how did he know to write about this? It just makes me so mad. So he was always topic competitive with you.

But tell me about this podcast you're doing. Podcasts called Against the Rules. And it's first of, I think more than one season of it, seven episodes. And it's about referees in American life. And it's making an argument in a roundabout way. I mean, it doesn't more than just making an argument, but in a series of stories that any human beings put in the position of being

the honest ref in situations is basically under attack or on the run in various ways, subject to new kinds of hostilities. There are forces gathering that are not friendly to the ref, and there aren't really equivalent forces to defend the ref. And the first episode is about NBA refs, just because the first episode is the only one about sports. The NBA is such an interesting lab for this, because the refs are feeling on the receiving end a greater fury than ever before.

You put in some replay center time? Yeah, I did. Have you been? Yeah. Yes, you've been. Yeah. It's a really odd, interesting place, that place. It's funny how much money they spend on this.

For two calls a game. And yet they won't spend money on the G League. Yeah. Yeah. $15 million. Yeah. To get two calls a game changed is what it ends up being. Yeah. So you laid out my favorite fact about my favorite thing that happened in the, in the replay center that sort

of like spoke to the whole thing was Joe Borgia who runs it has nothing. He's stuck in there with like a madman with 110 screens that do nothing but air the angles on the basketball courts in NBA arenas, whether anybody's playing there or not, You can't watch TV. It's 110 screens that aren't attached to anything but those cameras in the arenas. And so he's watching whatever's going on on the court. And he says that sometimes he'll watch the magicians during halftime. Some arenas have magicians come out. And he'll slow it down and zero in on it so he can see how the magician does his tricks. And that's sort of like what it is. It's sort of like trying to, it enables them to see what's going on a court in such a different way. It's so different from seeing it real time to get the thing more accurate

because the call, it's just hard in this world to suffer inaccurate calls because everybody can see them now. They're on the Jumbotron and they go on Twitter and everybody gets furious with the refs and the refs now need- Twitter was the biggest game changer of this. Yes. You cut those clips and people are watching them in five seconds. That's right. And if you have a big fuck up, it feels 20 times bigger.

20 times worse. And all of a sudden, games, everybody's saying the game, the outcome of the game was caused by the ref and nothing else. Like my hometown of New Orleans- Jeff Van Gundy doesn't help with this. No, he does not. He's the lead analyst for- Yes.

On the place that shows the finals. He's quick to jump on the refs. He jumps on the refs. He jumps on the refs. And you notice when announcers jump on the refs, when they jump on the call, very often the announcers turn out to be wrong. Right. First instinct. Yeah. And they don't say, oh, the ref, that was really great call.

I thought I was wrong. Instead, they just move on. This started in 06 though, because I remember I wrote about it a couple of different times because it was a real crisis where the Dwayne Wade finals in 06 shot 97 free throws, really cost Dallas the title. There were some bad calls. As this is happening, Donahue is in motion, and we didn't realize it yet.

And the combo of that, they had to fix this because it was a legitimate, this could affect our business crisis. That's right. That's right. And Adam Silver really took it on. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And Adam Silver really took it on. And when you look at everything they've done to bring in better people to be the refs, to train them better, to teach them about the social science of how their brains work so that they don't make the normal errors people make when they're making snap judgments, feeding them their mistakes, making them watch their mistakes. There's no way that ref is like a worse ref than the ref from 30 years ago. There's no way that guy's making more mistakes in his calls. Just not possible.

They are a trained workforce. They used to be a bunch of, it used to be a club of guys who were kind of out of shape. And well, you knew it was a problem because the gamblers, like my friend Haral Bob, who's come on this podcast a bunch of times, realized that all these biases and trends and things with officials, like if you studied officials, you actually had a gambling advantage. That certain guys on the road were just going to favor, certain guys were going to favor the home team versus teams on the road certain guys

we're going to call too many fouls versus not enough right so they've tried to systematically fix all of this all of that

make every ref the same right which is impossible which is impossible but maybe makes it less fun but it's also but you can't really argue

it makes it more unjust you know if you're making it more accurate. And yet the stars, especially, are going batshit. Well, I don't want to step on the pod too much because I want people to listen to it, but that was the point you had in there

that I hadn't really thought of, but I was like, oh, shit. Stars are the ones arguing with the refs. This isn't a case of the ninth man on the Rockets and the backup guard on the Pacers getting into it. This is Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Draymond Green. James Harden. James Harden.

Just watch him. Every call. All those dudes, it's the stars every time. Every call. And back in the day, it was Iverson and it was Kobe. Those were the guys that controlled the refs. Right. It's privilege being assaulted by, I mean, if you make the refs more objective, who's going to pay a price?

The people who are benefiting from the bad calls or the, whatever, the mistakes in the first place. And I think the stars probably got the calls. And just like the home court, home team got the calls. And there's less and less of that when you're emphasizing accuracy. And there's more and more. At the same time, the stars are ever more star-like, right? They're richer. They're global franchises.

And they just, you know, people in positions of privilege don't like being refereed fairly. That's not, they're not used to being refereed fairly. They're used to a lot of unfairness coming their way uh and i think that's part of the source and there's some not so hidden parallels between that and the rest of the world and everything else that happens i mean lebron is like i don't know like goldman sachs you know uh that you that you can see the same dynamics at work in lots of spheres of american life. And it's a cleanest example. And so we lead with that, but then we move on to lots of other things. All right. So this is part one.

Tommy, you're in charge. I'll be back. Six weeks, and then we can talk about the- Absolutely. All the other ones. I know I'm back in May. How you pick. And I also want to talk about Vanity Fair and how that magazine's changed over the years.

I know you probably have some thoughts on that. So let's do this again. Yeah, yeah. So this is part one. Michael Lewis, listen to the podcast that is called Against the Rules. Episode one is up right now. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. All right. Thanks to Michael Lewis and thanks to Ralph Macchio. Hey,

let's talk about the NFL draft. All right. The NFL draft's coming up. We have two very special guests, Patrick and Gabriel. They're going to talk about the NFL draft with us. You want to introduce yourself? Hi, everyone. I'm Patrick, Aaron Rodgers' state farm agent. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

A little fast and loose with the term agent there, Patty. Gabe Gabriel is Aaron's only agent. Pat is just, you know, his insurance guy. All right, guys, don't fight. NFL draft's coming up. We don't know how things are going to shake out. Supposedly, Arizona was going to take Kyler Murray. Then Bosa got involved in there a little bit.

Then maybe they trade the pick, keep Josh Rosen instead. Who knows what's going to happen? It did get me thinking, though. If Aaron Rodgers was picking first in this draft, and you guys were the two top picks, which guy would he take? Wow. That's pretty easy. I'm pretty sure I'd be Aaron's number one pick because I'm here to protect his most valuable possessions.

You protect his possessions? Yeah. How do you think you got those possessions? I protect his deals, buddy. And that's why I am, was, and always will be his number one agent and his number one pick. Boom. Drops metaphorical mic. Oh, my God.

What? You do know people can't see you on the radio right nobody saw that uh yeah that's why i said it was metaphorical they're invisible and by the way pat this is a podcast what are you going to do listen to it back on your wax cartridge on a victrola well listen i don't know why you're this confident uh i also don't understand why you're so sure that aaron would definitely 100 pick you okay so why don't we just call him you know what let's call our boy right now and uh let him make his pick all right hey you're not really calling him are you now let's call him aaron let's find this out hey what, what's up, man? It's your favorite agent, Gabe. Quick cue for you. We were just sort of discussing here.

Who's your favorite agent? I don't think you're on the phone with him. What? Yeah, he didn't really pick up. You didn't even dial. No, not even close. That's irrelevant. The point is here.

Look, I have his number in my phone and it's the only phone number. You should try to dial it though. See? Speed well right there i i think what we've learned if that of aaron had the first pick he would definitely go with patrick uh don't forget about wow thank you bill i appreciate more importantly don't forget about state farm and the upcoming nfl draft regardless of what arizona does and i think we know what aaron rogers would do yeah he would call his agent. I don't think so. Absolutely.

I'm not sure that would happen. All right, thanks to DAZN. Don't forget to sign up before the big Canelo fight next week. Thanks to SimpliSafe. Remember, I don't like SimpliSafe just because they're from Boston. There are many other reasons, including easy to use protection

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