The Bill Simmons Podcast - Red Sox Bliss, Luka’s 2022 Ceiling, and a Michael Keaton Interview | With Kevin Hench and Jonathan Tjarks

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by his pal Kevin Hench to discuss the Red Sox’ wild-card victory over the Yankees (2:30). Then Bill talks with The Ringer’s Jonathan Tjarks about Luka Doncic and the sleeper Dallas Mavericks (36:40). Finally Bill talks with legendary actor Michael Keaton about doing stand-up comedy and breaking into acting in the late ’70s; some of his past works, including ‘Night Shift,’ ‘Mr. Mom,’ ‘Touch and Go,’ and ‘Batman’; Pittsburgh sports; and more (1:07:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Michael Keaton, Jonathan Tjarks, and Kevin Hench Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody? I'm J.J. John G. Stramski. And I'm Jason Goff, and if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire, I'm bringing the rain from the Big Apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm repping Chi-Town with my new show, The Full Goal on all things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction of the local teams and guests. Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines. So whether you're uptown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant, make sure you follow

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as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. I hope you're listening to the new Prestige TV podcast. We covered Squid Game. We did some season finale Billions. Kind of a shocker

at the end of Billions. Logan Murdoch and Big Waz broke that down. Van and Chris Ryan are going to be doing Ted Lasso season finale on Friday. They got screeners. So that's going up. And then tomorrow, tomorrow night, me and Joanna Robinson, new addition to The Ringer, we're going to do a succession Hall of Fame episode. I won't tell you what it is,

but we'll be putting it up Wednesday night. So check out the Prestige TV pod. You can also check out New York, New York with John Jastrzemski. I'm going to be nice. It's a great podcast. We'll probably be a somber podcast tonight, but he does a great job. And we have tried to stay very civil and friendly to one another. I think our relationship has gotten through it, but you can listen to New York, New York if you want. John Jastrzemski's reaction. Coming up on this podcast, my reaction to Yankees-Red Sox,

the play-in game. Me and my buddy Hench, we taped it right after the game. If you don't want to hear that, fast forward about 33 minutes after the Pearl Jam music, and you can listen to me and Jonathan Charks from The Ringer

talking about Ben Simmons and the Dallas Mavericks, two storylines that we are pretty fascinated by heading into this upcoming NBA season. And then a guy I've been trying to get on this podcast forever, he finally came on, the one, the only Michael Keaton. How about this for a podcast? A live Red Sox reaction, NBA and Michael Keaton. Can't do better than that. What a night. I'm drained. I'm happy. I'm excited to say, here comes Pearl Jam. All right, taping this literally right after the Red Sox-Yankees game. Red Sox win 6-2. My buddy Kevin Hench is here.

We have known each other since the fall of 2002. We struggled through the Boone home run season Grady Little all that stuff we celebrated we've known each other forever during that entire time the Red Sox have flipped the Red Sox-Yankee rivalry

once again it happened today once again the demons were there the baggage a million Bucky Dent references we made it Hench we made it they're interviewing him in the stands like why isn't this guy being assaulted

he just walked freely in Fenway Park. What's happening? That's true. That shows you how calm we are now that we have the upper hand. Right. Pre-2004, I'm not sure he's in the stands. It might not have been safe for him. But look, we've watched way too much Red Sox.

I thought I would watch less baseball when I'm older. I watch more. You and I, we text every game. We know this team inside out. I was more confident than you heading into tonight. You saved me. I was fully going to do our move of buying the win, and you

talked me out of it. You saved me money. You were like, I think they're going to win this game. And I was like, really? And then you made three good points, and I was like, oh, I won't do my move of betting against the Red Sox and then being happy anyway. I'll just be happy without losing money. Well, I said to you, Schwerber, trust him. Verdugo, I trust him.

And then who was the third? Endeavors. And all three of them were good tonight. And then we got the random Bogarts who's been in a semi coma for the last few weeks and came through with the, with the drew first blood, got it going. It's so crazy because both you and I bet the Red Sox over 80.5 wins. We were like, they're not a 500 team. They're better than that. Yeah.

And, but like you, I also was like, I can't watch a fucking 150 baseball games this year. Like, and then between, you know, my catastrophic knee injury and ending my soccer career, we'll call it. I was in a leg brace. I was Jimmy Stewart in rear window for the whole summer. I basically, I watched more Red Sox games this year than since 1978 with my dad in Winthrop, Massachusetts. I couldn't believe how invested I became in this very flawed team. And then they just started to really rip us apart down the stretch. And that Washington National Series was like, those three games, the other team is not trying. And we can barely eke out these wins

against the last place team down 5-1 on Sunday. That Sunday game, all they care about is when are we taking out Ryan Zimmerman? Sixth inning, seventh inning, eighth? We just got to get him to the standing up. We're trying to do a retirement ceremony and you guys want to play a baseball game? And then the kid who not only had never started a big league game but had a 6.43 era in double a this year completely shuts us down

like 19 year old doc gooden and i'm like oh my god we're gonna you know we're gonna just have to play the jays in a one game playoff and here we are i know it speaks to how damaged we were as children and nothing can change that that it feels like we just won the world series like ending those motherfuckers season that we should have a duck boat parade in the like we're gonna get swept by the rays and we won't give a shit we're gonna be smiling all off season like seeing the looks on their faces. I mean, you and I, half of our texts are about Brett Gardner. He goes 0 for 3 with 3Ks, and I'm just going to watch those on a loop all night.

Yeah, could someone make that YouTube clip for us? We both detest him. He kills the Red Sox, even though the stats aren't as bad as it seems like when you're watching it. You mentioned the Yankee thing, how everything else is gravy. I was thinking, I think it was Mark Cram and SI wrote about the third Ali Frazier fight

when there was no title at stake. And he was like, this was basically about the championship of each other. And that was all them. Like, we didn't need a title for that one. It's like, we just, and that's what all these Yankees Red Sox things feel like. If anything, I think the Yankees have, you know, more at stake just because they haven't won since 09. There's 17, 18-year-old Yankee fans that have never seen their, don't remember seeing their team celebrate.

But for us, it's like, if you had told me you're going to beat the Yankees in this game, but you're going to lose the one next three rounds, I'd be like, done. I'll take it. No problem. Good. No problem. And we beat Garrett Cole in 2018 in the ALCS against the Astros. And he might have a little bit of a Red Sox problem in his head with only a couple hundred million left on that deal. Well, we were texting, if the Red Sox can

win this game, the cold thing with the Yankees fans is going to be really crazy. It's going to be a borderline unforgivable offense. They even said to Boone, they threw him in the dugout. Was he healthy? Was there anything physical? Boone's like, no, no, he's fine.

He just sucks. It's just the biggest game of his life and he sucks. No injury. You don't think he's going to get a standing ovation when they give him his Cy Young Award on opening day next year at the stadium? Right. Because Robbie Ray was going to win that award

and then the Yankees just had batting practice off Robbie Ray in a must-win game for Robbie Ray. Like Robbie Ray lost more than the Cy Young award. The Blue Jays lost their season when he got shelled in that game, uh, leading in the six. Well, the best part of the Cole thing,

first of all, they pulled them pretty fast. Like I actually thought it was, you both wanted him to stay in. Yeah. Like, Oh, we have such a bad week.

This is how far Cole has fallen. We were both like, we have a much better chance of scoring off him than Clay Holmes, who is available at the trade deadline with his four and a half ERA. By the way, I think I called Clint Holmes in about five texts. I was like, I hope they keep Cole and not Clint Holmes. I didn't even know his first name. The Cole thing, as it wasn't bad enough that he completely

lets down the city, his team, he becomes like the guy you point to for who's the most overpaid guy who didn't come through. He has A-Rod in the booth who's killing him. A-Rod's like Chris Webber. He has no long term memory of the fact that he was the biggest

choke artist of his entire era. He's like, wow, man, Gary Cole didn't come through. It's like, well, okay, pot. You're saying Kettle didn't come through? Give me a break. I realized about in the eighth inning how happy I was when even A-Rod's voice stopped bothering me. I was like, wow, I must really be in some kind of euphoria when I'm mildly enjoying this nonsensical blather from, I mean, A-Rod, as we've always said, nobody unites Yankee fans and Red Sox fans like A-Rod. Everyone's like,

but we all hate that guy. We hate that guy. And it is him going on, just prattling on for the entire broadcast is the dumbest guy in the bar explaining baseball to you. Like, how does this work? ESPN goes, we got to get that guy as the lead analyst on our bank. What? Nobody thinks he's a good analyst. Well, it's like he needs a translator, not to help him speak English,

but to help us understand what the fuck he's saying. Because he'll talk for two minutes, and then it'll end and Vasquez you know he won't even kind of know what to say because A-Rod has just done this circle around whatever his point was you're like am I supposed to understand what just what was just said or he spends

eight minutes explaining that Alex Cora wants to get some runs this inning right what Cora wants to do here because he's a good manager is get some runs right he's got to be good manager is get some runs. Right. He's got to be aggressive. Got to get some runs. And then the one thing he was able to seize on the Yankees third base coach

making the egregious decision to send somebody home. And now we had to see replays over and over again. Cause a ride had finally made a good point back to your Yankees, Red Sox, uniting him. He's also like kind of a pathological liar. Like he says stuff at one point, he says during theiting him. He's also like kind of a pathological liar. Like he says stuff. At one point he says during the broadcast to Matt, like, oh, these fans, they're talking about the

pizza stories. Oh, these fans of Boston. I mean, that's why I love coming back here. It's like, you don't love coming back here. Everyone in Boston hates you. There's no way you love coming back to Boston for any reason. What are you saying? How can you say that with a straight face? He really does just seem like a slimy politician. Like he just lies so easily. It's just so natural for him. Um, but you know that it's funny. You and I agreed a hundred percent that that fucking quick hook on Evaldi was crazy. He was dealing, he gives up, you know, a pesky pole home run on a, on a breaking ball in a bad spot. But then on an 0-2 pitch, Judge beats out an infield single. It's not time to hit the panic button. to go through that process as an offensive tackle beat the throw to first. One of the secrets with this Red Sox team is really nobody's good defensively unless Kiki and center field has moments, but Bogarts doesn't really have a ton of range.

Nobody should beat that out. But anyway, Cora, we were both like, he's coming out. Nate's dealing. 71 pitches? What is happening? And then, and look, it's good. Like, you know, it's always better to be lucky than good. Right. I mean, that's, that's what the Patriots have taught us. Like it's just, so then Cora makes the wrong decision. Brazier gives up another missile to Stanton. Oh my God, I'm not going to miss that guy just hitting rockets all over Fenway park, which he's been

doing for a month. I still really do not understand how the first two balls did not land on the turnpike. I'm looking at the trajectory and I'm looking at the exit velocity. I'm like, that's got to be gone. But so he hits the missile, his second missile off the wall. And when the ball hits the wall, we're going to lose this game. Like we're going to lose this game. Like, we're going to lose this game. And then Nevin waves Judge. Well, hold on. Go backwards. Kiki makes a really good play, hustles over.

He's the one who gets it. When they showed the replay, he's pretty far away from where the ball hits. He has been unbelievable in center field all year, gunning guys down. And I actually think what Nevin probably saw was Verdugo not playing, not playing the ball off the wall, thinking if the center fielder is playing that ball, I actually have a little more time to get this guy home. When in reality, he kept playing that ball, sped the whole process up and he got the ball in quickly. And the way Bogey threw it home, I was like, where is this guy going to be when the camera goes wide and we see, you know, is Judge going to be getting high fives in the dugout?

I had no sense for how close this play was going to be. And then, like, Ploiecki just got him by 20 feet and puts the tag on him. And that just felt like it's like, I was like, we're going to win this game. As somebody, you've had to listen to me for 20 years. Talk about Dale's fame and Wendell Kim. There is a third base coach karma when a guy, um, who should have nothing to do with the outcome of the game. He's not on the roster, just devastates an inning like that. It's so hard to overcome. So I just had, I was like, oh, that's it. They're not good.

I didn't think they were going to get off the mat after that. And then we tacked on. Well, hold on, hold on. Hold that thought about the third base coach piece. Because the wall was the other piece of this. And ESPN made sure, I didn't watch any of the pregame because I know what they're going to do.

I knew they're going to have like the 20 minute documentary of 1978. Like 2004 never happened. Us beating us in 2018, not mentioning the entire broadcast, I don't think. We just beat these guys three years ago. The wall, Bucky Dent, Pop Fly goes over and it's like, this is symbolic of the stupid Red Sox team that we root for and we love where Fenway Park is actually our enemy most of the time right this game Stanton hits three home runs like he's got to be in the locker right now like hey how'd you do in the game I hit three home runs somehow I only scored once I mean when he didn't run on the first one it was like well obviously the ball hit a bird like I mean, yeah, he can't be mad at him. He knows where that ball lands.

I still like that. You were explaining to me that your dad was giving the weather report. And I'm like, I don't understand how these balls are not leaving the yard. Yeah, my dad was saying it was a little thick. So the 1978 baggage, which I think had 2004 and everything else not happened. Let's be honest. We would have been in the fetal position for, what, two days straight? This, oh my God, this is, we're going to relive

the single worst sports memory of my childhood? This is, we have to live this back? That, you know, my wife still like yells at me like, haven't the championships done anything to your nervous system? Like, like, why are you pacing like a maniac? I'm like, I can't explain it. I don't know. You'd think I'd be more relaxed, but a one game season ending series against the Yankees, it's impossible, especially with like 1978 was such a complicated summer for me with like my parents' divorce. And like, like i was like i was just totally

i mean you've written about this like the red socks were such a escape for us and like like a safe haven and then they were abusive like we're like wait a second what is happening and so those those scars uh don't go away fast but i I think between 2004, 2018, and now 2021, ending these motherfuckers season, seeing that Brett Gardner face walk meekly back to the dugout after three pathetic whiffs, it's, you know, it's starting, the healing has begun. Well, you know, it's funny.

I mean, ESPN, run by a Yankee fan, Jimmy Pataro. Nice guy, but Yankee fan. A-Rod in the booth. Was on the Yankees forever. Seems like most of the people that work for ESPN, at least behind this team, seem to be Yankee fans. So they steer it all toward this Boston baggage, Bucky Dent, 1978.

It's like, the real theme here is that game, you know, John Jastrzemski made this point when I went on his podcast yesterday. They had more at stake because this is now, a, this is the century we're talking about here where the Red Sox have just flipped the script over and over again. And now here we go again, we ended another Yankee season and you felt two weeks ago when they came in and just kicked the shit out of us for that Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And you saw the chest starting to swell out. And we were on a couple of different text threads and all of us were just like, God damn it. Don't let these zombies come back to life.

Don't let these, these annoying Yankee fans who tormented us for most of our lives. Don't, don't give them confidence. Don't please not. And then they're showing the Halloween ads of Michael Myers where it's like, I thought he died in the last like seven movies. He's back. And if I felt the same way about Yankee fits. And, uh,

that Friday night, Evaldi start where it's like, we're like, Oh my God, they've completely figured this guy out. It's just batting practice. And, and he was amazing today.

You mentioned the text threads. I always feel bad because I know you and I are both on 40 text threads, but you and I are also on multiple text threads. So we've got our Roto text thread. We've got our gambling text thread. We've got our Red Sox text thread. We've got our Patriots text thread. But like there were a couple threads tonight where I'm like, I want to make this point to these guys, but I know I've already made it to Simmons twice over here. And now Simmons is like, okay, I get it. How many times are you going to make this point in a text?

It's like, it's a different thread. I know I just made the exact same point to you on the other thread. You're like a standup comic doing different late night shows, doing the same riffs. Can I use this material with Kellison? I think I just used it with Simmons and he's in this room. Well, we're on this thread. We don't have to say who's on it, but we've been on it for most of the year, relatively new. And we named it after, it started when Bobby Dahlbeck, it seemed like his career was over and he was destined to become Crash Davis. And right after we started the thread,

he started hitting. We renamed it the Bobby Dahlbeck thread. Then it's the Bobby Dahlbeck Cooperstown thread. And he was huge. You knew tonight was going to be a bad night for him because the teams that the hard throwing right handers, he's overmatched, but it was still like kind of symbolic of this team where this guy was like this bird that had the broken wing that we just nursed back to health with positive texts. I feel like he should thank us. And I got to say, a one pitch out, first pitch of the game, hard ground ball to Bobby D, you know, and even though he's not the butcher

that Schwarber is, who's just learning how to play first base in the pennant race, you know, he's been very shaky. And so it was like, ooh, a one pitch out on a hard hit ground ball to first, Bobby D. Cooper's down bound.

A couple other good things happened. Stanton did the hype video earlier today, which made me really optimistic. I feel like that stuff backfires, what, 99% of the time? We're old enough now. We know how this goes. It's like, oh, you did that? Great.

This is great for us. That happened. The crowd, I thought, especially first couple innings, since COVID started, I think that was the best Boston crowd I've seen. It was one of the best sports crowds period. But I had friends that were there just said that it was just electric. And, you know, there's Yankee fans there too.

It's almost a little more like an English soccer crowd or something where there's little fan base, little territories all over the place. But Remy comes out. And Remy was announcing games earlier this year and he's had all over the place. But Remy comes out and Remy was announcing games earlier this year and he's had all these health battles. And we had this unbelievable announcing situation with O'Brien, Remy and Eck, which I think is probably the best three-man local booth we've had for any sport in Boston ever. And then Remy just is gone from the broadcast. Like what happened? This isn't good. And we knew his health wasn't good. He comes out tonight before the game.

Of course, he played in 78. He was in that game, but he comes out. Nobody expected him. He had the oxygen in his nose through the first pitch, but it was really emotional. And it was like the first couple innings, just you wouldn't have known COVID was going on. And Eck catching the first pitch.

And Eck has sustained us like a therapist on. And Ek catching the first pitch. Ek has sustained us like a therapist through this season because he sees the games just like we do. He doesn't pull any punches, but he's also incredibly enthusiastic about guys. And then Whitlock coming in and throwing

98 at the end. He's a Rule 5 guy from the Yankees. The bookends to this game are former Yankee Eovaldi and Rule 5 Yankee Whitlock starting and finishing this game and ending the Evil Empire season. I mean, it was just, it was glorious.

You know, I... And we should also mention Big Game Nate who, that was the best he's looked all year. I know they pulled him too soon, but that was what, that was like 2018 Nate, I that was the best he's looked all year. I know they pulled them too soon, but that was what, that was like 2018, Nate, I felt like, didn't you? Flooding the zone with strikes. You know, they were chronicling all his swinging strikes in the zone.

And he was just beating guys in the zone, like 97. He hit 101 a couple of times. The other thing I was thinking about tonight that, you know, we're older now. We're both in our, I turned 52 last week. You're slightly older than I am, but we've seen so many games and been through so many seasons now that you start hitting these checkpoints and they either bring back good memories or bad memories, right? Like, so the Cole comes out, Holmes comes in, who I still think it's Clint Holmes, even though I've watched him and we had him on our fantasy team. Holmes comes in and he looks great and he gets two double plays.

And somebody who were on the text thread was like, oh my God, this is like 03 Messina. And then all of a sudden it's like, now I'm back. Now it's game seven, 2003 again. I'm like, no, I don't want to be here. Stop it. But yeah, it did feel like the Messina thing. The good thing for us, Severino didn't totally have it.

And then Luizaga was really laboring. But there's a scenario of this game today where the Yankee relievers come in and they just don't give up. We don't score again. Yeah, I mean, that's what watching, jumping around all weekend. The Rays kept getting first first and third one out all game

Sunday and then one of those hundred mile an hour guys for the Yankees would just ban the the batter and keep their season alive and so I was thinking you know you got to assume you're going to get five from Cole and then and then you're you're dealing with with Severino and Holmes um and and and it's ironic when you're like, the guy I feel like we have the best shot off is Chapman. Right. We can get to Chapman. Well, Chad Green, I think he was so overused.

There was definitely some Quantrill, Flash, Gordon comparisons to the 0-4 range. Look, everybody, it's now like, oh, everything else is great, but that's fine. Everybody thinks Tampa's unstoppable. They're certainly the best team you and I saw this year. They would just come in. They do everything well. It's annoying to play them.

It's like, hey, here's this 20-year-old. He's like the most gifted 20-year-old in the recent history of the league. They just add him to the mix. They have these pitchers. They lose their 6'8 monster ace and immediately get better. Right.

Any team loses their ace, it's just a back-breaking moment for a team. They're like, hey, no problem. We'll go get three more from the farm. They start out slow. And in May, they're just like, hey, we're going to trade our closer. We have 19 other guys who throw 99 miles an hour.

We're just going to put those guys in. They do everything well. They're really smart. They're incredibly well managed. With all that said, the big thing with us this year over the course of the year, especially with the COVID thing, was we don't have a bullpen. Once Matt Barnes, we should have dedicated this podcast to Matt Barnes, who died at the beginning

of August. 2021 all-star, Matt Barnes. Yes, and then immediately it was done. And then it was like, can we get through August, September with this bullpen? But now, you look at the way Hawk pitched today. He was great. He was great a few times down the stretch. Whitlock's back.

Robles, once again, I gotta say, he makes me so nervous. We both have multiple Met fans in our lives who think it's hilarious that we're lagging on Robles. Meanwhile, he makes me so nervous. We both have multiple Met fans in our lives who think it's hilarious that we're lying on Robles. Meanwhile, he just gets dudes out. Ryan Brazier, who came out of nowhere. I'd forgotten about him.

He's been pretty good. So they can kind of patch together a semblance of a playoff bullpen. And then you have Vivaldi, who looked as good as he looked earlier today. Oh, they're so hungover from the duck poke parade we're having in the morning. We just won our World Series.

So these guys. What would they do if they, what would people react to if they just had a parade tomorrow for no reason? It'd be a huge turnout, first of all. This is our burying the Yankees duck boat parade. You know, we, of course, were, we, we needed to win out. And, and God bless Kevin Cash and the Tampa Bay Rays for trying to win every game in that series. You know, they had nothing to play for and, and they pushed the Yankees to the point where we got to play that game at

Fenway. I mean, we really we, you know, when, when the Rays sweep us we'll tip our caps to them and thank them. But so we have all three games in Washington are must-wins. On Saturday, we don't have a pitcher. It's undecided moments hours before the game. They don't know who's going to start. And then Hout goes out there and pitches five perfect innings. And, of course, on our text chains, people were greedy. Like people on our text chains were like sending back out.

Yeah, but more. Are you crazy? I was with Eck. Like you have gone so far beyond house money. Like you got five innings out of a guy who's been sent to the bullpen for a month. Like he hasn't started in a month. And we got five innings out of him. who's been sent to the bullpen for a month. Like he hasn't started in a month and, and, uh,

and we got five innings out of him. And, and so when he came in tonight, it was like, Oh my God, this guy's coming off 15 in a row. Dominant. Nobody's squaring the ball up. And then that inning tonight was filthy.

Like he had like a real, real swagger to him tonight. Oh my God. He's so relaxed physically. He's like, he looks bored. He looks totally relaxed physically. He's like, he looks bored. He looks totally bored. Uh,

so yeah, he could be an X factor as I try to talk myself into it. Think about the guys that we, the, the batters that we have, we have playoff bats. Yes. Schwarber.

You saw it today. Sure. Every Schwarber, Schwarber was unreal tonight. Even the one time he made it out, he, every pitch he took was a ball. Two of them were called strikes,

and then he swung it at three and two. But he had unreal at-bats for Dugo, Devers, Kike, even Ploiecki. Like, they have these random dudes that in the right situation, Dahlbeck if it's a lefty or if it's a soft tosser. You're going down the line, it's like, you know, I'm talking myself into it,

I guess is my point. Well, it's funny because when you, when we spent 48 hours going, which lineup, which lineup do you want? Because we have, we do have a lot of permutations to choose from, you know, and I was like, I wanted JD on the bench and whether it, whether Cora used the excuse of his ankle, when you play JD, it creates this domino effect because he eats terrible defensively. So if you play him in the field, you're hurting your team in the field. If you DH him, then Schwarber can't DH. And he's a better hitter than JD at this point in his career. And so then Schwarber is hurting you defensively wherever he plays.

Wait, hold on. Schwarber's maiming you defensively. It's not a hurt. It's actually like you're maimed for the next month. You remember when they had that little run in the UCLA uniforms when he just had a pop-up land in the middle of the infield five feet behind him. I've never seen it.

And I was like, oh, yeah, he's never played first base. He's never staggered under a pop-up in the infield. But so the domino effect where you start moving guys around hurts us defensively everywhere so we were like even though glacey is not on the playoff roster arroyo in at second pk in center and renfro in right and doogie and left is definitely our best defensive team it all meant meant J.D. Martinez shouldn't play. And so I was very excited when I saw that lineup when we were texting it to each other. And then I looked at the Yankees lineup

and like that LeMahieu injury, I know he didn't have a good year, but like with LeMahieu out and even Voigt not playing and then Sanchez sitting, like you're like, gosh. and even Voigt not playing, and then Sanchez sitting, you're like, gosh. It tails off.

Labor batting fifth, and after that, as Eck would say, it's a bunch of lambs. You've got Higgy and Velasquez back-to-back at the bottom of the lineup, and Gardner, I mean, I know you hate him, but he's not much of a hitter at this point in his career. So when I looked at those lineups this afternoon

to your point about our lineup, I was like, well, our bridge to the last 12 outs notwithstanding, we have a better team, one through nine, than that team that the Yankees put out there tonight. Yeah, I'm with you on DJ.

I know he wasn't as good as this year as was last year, but I'm still scared of him when he's up, you know? And I think with the lineup, they basically had this three-bat gauntlet. I wasn't afraid of Gallo. Sorry, Yankee fans.

So in a one game where you can do whatever you want with your pitching staff, you can really stack it so you can put the guys you want against that three back on. Like that's going to be tougher. One of the frustrated things against Tampa is like last year,

it was that guy, uh, Brousseau. Is that how you pronounce it? Yeah. Mike Brosseau. Yeah. So he's awesome in the playoffs and Hench and I own a AL keeper team together.

And we're like, Brosseau, Brousseso. Brusso. Yeah, it was like this guy, he came into his own last year. I think he hit like 130 and was in the minors basically for the last four and a half months of the year. But that's

the raise. And this year it'll be another Brasso, Brusso, Brosso. It'll be one other guy we've never heard of or we aren't afraid of who goes 14 for 20. Every seam head, basically, the

computers have taken a little of the fun out of the game because they're like, look, if you're eighth in the league in OPS, you're going to be around eighth through 10 in the league and run scored. It's like, well, no. The Rays are in the middle of the pack and OPS and running away with run scored.

Right. How? Like, doesn't your on-base percentage or your slugging percentage has to be something? Like, no, here's what we do. Every time there's runners on second and third with two outs, one of these guys gets a hit. It's nuts. It is. And I think, and the Giants are the worst, are theants are the worst case scenario of that

because they've been pulling even more shit out of there. I have Dodger fans who are like, we won 106 games and we have to do a one-game playoff. We did everything right. This other team had the all-time hot blackjack table hot streak that anyone's ever had during a baseball season. And now we have a one-game playoff. They have a one-game playoff with Cowboy Joe West behind the plate.

What a nightmare. It is insane that what Dodger fans are going to have to go through. I did. I texted you earlier. That was like, because then I was thinking about talking to a buddy about Sonny McClain's and when the Red Sox won in 2004. And I was remembering meeting Dave Roberts and Gabe Kapler with the trophy. They

almost like treated it like the Stanley cup. Like I felt like those guys got a weekend with the trophy. And so we were at Sonny McLean's and they, and they were such nice guys and like young, like us and, uh, and, and really like just friendly and like so psyched that they were part of this team. And then I just, it just occurred to me, I was like, oh yeah, Dave Kapler and Dave Roberts, they just won 213 games combined in the same baseball season. Like it's, it's a, it's a managerial anomaly. Like, Hey, you guys won 106 games. Well, what'd you win the division by 17 games? No, we lost. I gotta say, I like the rule. I like the rule just because it reminds me

of what we grew up with, especially in 78, ironically, where it's like, they were the two best teams in the American League, but the rules back then were, you got to win your division. And somebody's got to go home, and that's just the way it is.

At least in this case, there's real value to winning the division still. And, you know, you can still control your own destiny and you can stack your team in one game and you should win it. The Dodgers should win tomorrow night. I have said a hundred times since July,

the Dodgers are winning that division between five and 10 games. Like, it is not... Buster Posey is the only guy who can start for the Dodgers. And Will Smith's good, by the way. The Dodgers are so loaded.

And the Trey Turner fleecing, in addition to Scherzer, I didn't realize Trey Turner had 27 home runs. I was like, oh, that guy's just a superstar. Well, I'll leave you with this because we got to go. I haven't forgiven them for the

Mookie Betts trade, but I've come to terms with it. I have really loved this Red Sox team. Last year, I basically had to take off emotionally. I watched as little Red Sox as I've ever watched in my whole life. And then you think like today, Verdugo was one of the guys that got the big hit. He's not Mookie Betts. They never should have traded Mookie Betts. I'll never forgive them for it. But it's nice that at least one of the guys we got is a real guy. And then they get Kike, who wasn't in that trade, but feels like he's got a little Dodgers DNA at least. And those were two guys that the Dodger fans really liked.

So I'm going to end it on a positive. Let me ask you this, because I want to give some love to Doogie, who seems oddly clutch. Who was it? Was it Pete Myers or Dennis Hopson? Who, who did the bulls say?

Like, no problem. No problem. We've got, was it Dennis Hopson or Pete Myers? Yeah. Like we got Pete Myers. Everyone should relax.

Cause we got Pete Myers. And I really do feel like, you know, Verdugo carries this weight of like, you have, you know, like maybe the greatest right fielder in baseball history, defensively MVP, most beloved member of the community. Like you are stepping into shoes. Like it is, it could, you could crash.

Like if you're like, oh, this is the guy we got from Mookie Betts. And he's just done nothing but deliver. Very solid season, huge hit against the nationals on Sunday, obviously a huge hit tonight to kind of really let us exhale. Also an incredible chemistry guy, great energy. I love the stuff with him and Ortiz,

like was a real Red Sox fan, like really loved and appreciated being on the team. And I, it's really hard not to, not to like him. So yeah, that's the point we're at with the Mookie trade. At this point, we could be playing deeper into October than the Dodgers.

It's insane to contemplate. Oh my God. Yeah, that's unbelievable. Well, Hench, hopefully you'll come back on later in October if we keep winning. I'm weirdly optimistic. I'm really happy.

I'm so happy about the season. I feel like all the work we put into it, the way too many games and texts we sent paid off tonight. It was all worth it for this three and a half hours of pure glory. And we got to keep the championship

belts of each other. It's staying in Boston. All right, Kevin Hanch, good to see you. Thanks, buddy. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl ring. He rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember.

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Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, our guy Jonathan Charks is here from The Ringer and The Ringer Podcast Network and TheRinger.com. Good to see you. How are you feeling these days? People want to know. I'm feeling good. I'm taking a break from treatment right now, just kind of relaxing, getting ready for the NBA season. Yeah. You've written some pieces. I have you on to talk about Dallas because I think Dallas is the most interesting West team right now to kind of discuss from a ceiling-basement standpoint. But before we do that, we're contractually obligated

to talk about Ben Simmons for one minute. Ben Simmons, the stuff that's come out, especially in the Philly Inquirer the last couple days, has talked about the mental stress of the situation the last year on Ben that's coming from the clutch side. So now they're playing that angle that his head's just never going to be right if he plays for you guys.

You should trade him. They're looking at every single way to trade him, yet there's no trade. He's holding out. The season, we're now less than three months away. Three weeks away. Yeah, less than three weeks away. Sorry.

Doesn't seem like he's getting traded. Are you a he's undervalued, overvalued, or properly valued guy at this point right now? I think he could be better than what he is in Philly in a different role. I do believe that. I do believe if I was a team, I'd be interested in trading for

him given in a different role. I think he could be better than what he is now for sure. So would you be more interested in trading for him if you were a shitty team, a mediocre team, or a good team? Well, where does Portland fall in that mix? Portland, I think, is

a good team. Okay, I would trade for him if I was Portland. I would trade CJ whenever they wanted if that was even doable. Something like that, I'd do it in a mix. Portland, I think, is a good team. Okay, I would trade for them if I was Portland. I would trade CJ whenever they wanted if that was even doable. Something like that, I'd do it in a second. Yeah, it was because

we're going to do the big me, Hasselman, Siller doing the big over-under podcast next week. Very excited about it, but doing a lot of homework. And the Portland over-under was 44 and a half.

They were 30 to 1 to win the conference and 80 to one to win the title. And I was looking at their team. And when you add Larry Nance to it and you think like, all right, at crunch time, I can kind of see this team, right? I could see Covington. Wait, they have the ability to go a little smaller, right? They can do Covington and Nance, Norm Powell, McCollum and Dame. And it's like, all right, that's actually five guys that I think could play together. If the other team has a center, you could play Nurkic.

And now if you're going to remove McCollum from that, you're going to put Simmons in there. To me, that's riskier than what they have. I don't know if I would do that with what we don't know about Ben Simmons. Does he like basketball? What happened to him last year? Was it just because of the trade? Is there more to it? Why hasn't he gotten better in four years? I'm not positive I would want to mess it up if I was Portland, but it seems like you would. I guess so.

I just don't believe in Damon, CJ. And then you're at Norm Powell. So now you're going 6'2", 6'2", 6'4". I'm a big believer in perimeter length, perimeter size. I think those guys are just too small to really go on a run in the West. And you know Dame is still...

He's happy for now, but I think that's the kind of seismic move that maybe it might buy me two more years with Dame. Okay, this is an all-star. Let's rebuild around these two guys. We have some future. Whereas I think if him and CJ lose

again in round one or round two, it'll be like, okay, we've done this 10 billion times. It's never going to work. Right. But I guess my fear with Simmons would be what if Dame within a week realizes like, oh my God, this guy.

And now you have to move on Dame almost immediately after, you know? Like if Dame's out on that move, it will, there might be a grace period of, I don't know how many months, but you're right. Like, look on paper, if you had Simmons, Covington and Larry Nance all out there together with Dame and another shooter, whether it's Powell or whoever else defensively, they'd be pretty interesting with the, I think Simmons is one of the two or three best defensive players in the league. Now that Kawhi's out, he might be two behind Giannis if he's trying. I don't know. That's something, I guess.

But I just think the baggage that he brings in and that fan base, too, that's like this hyper fan base of they only have the one team there. If he thinks Philly's tough, where do he get to Portland? Portland is the all-time sink or swim city. If I'm Neil Olshay, I read these articles. He's probably thinking, I'm going to get fired at the end of the season.

Maybe it's time for me to... Once he made an aggressive move, he's always played it very conservatively. He's always been a big built-to-draft guy. Doom, doom, doom. We'll add one free agent. When was their big splash? It was trading for Norman Powell. It's not really a big splash. If I'm Olshay, it's time to make a move, I think.

Yeah, he's done the medium-sized splash. And you're right. The one big move GM is always the biggest threat to a franchise other than relocation. It's true. Because if you're the fan base, all right, does a move, he gets fired, he just goes to his next job. But the fan base is still stuck with the wreckage

of the move. And they're like, well, wait a second. So he's gone, but we're still stuck with that terrible trade he made? I can't wait to see how it plays out. Well, with the Simmons thing, I personally think the best thing for him would be a shitty team.

Like if he went to, I don't think it's even possible with the Sour Cap, but like Houston, if he went there and he just had all these young toys around him and he was the man and just could be the kind of facilitator guy with the ball in his hands all the time. But also the team wasn't winning that much.

There wasn't a pressure of, Hey, look at our record. Oh, we're 35 and 47. It's like, yeah, we have a young team and Ben's getting these reps.

That's like the best, no pressure thing for him. The worst pressure thing would be to, if you went to like golden state and yeah, which I'm not convinced that they would go near unless, you know, ironically, unless Draymond was in the deal somehow

in a three-way. I just don't think you can play Simmons and Draymond together. Enough foreplay. Let's get to the maps. A couple things with the maps. Luka easily on Fando has the best MVP odds. That's been the case the whole

year, right? The whole offseason. Their over-under is 48 and a half. It's pretty high. Vegas is saying 49 and 33 will be a half lane over. 49 and 33 in the West isn't nothing. For the title, they're only 30 to one. So again, I mentioned Portland was 80 to one.

For the conference, they're 60 to one. And they're in a crap division. Right now, they're minus 210 to win that division. But the teams in that division, they have Memphis, who I think would be their biggest threat. New Orleans, who's a mess. Talk about GMs who are on the hot seat. San Antonio, don't know what to make of them. And then Houston. So we know that unless Luka gets hurt, Dallas is winning the division. We also know they got better. I think Bullock is just an improvement over Jason Richardson. The one thing he can do is the thing they really need from that spot, which is somebody who can hit an open shot. And they have the healthy Dwight Powell, who they didn't have last year for most of the year.

And then they have Porzingis, who, look, it's preseason. We're used to reading these stories. Everybody looks great. Everybody's never been in better shape. Everybody's never been happier. I get it. But it didn't look like he was right last year. Every story I'm reading is this guy is actually physically right this year.

He's way better. And they have the Kid Carlisle thing. I'm optimistic on the 48 and a half. I think next week I'm probably going to go over. actually physically right this year. He's way better. And they have the Kid Carlisle thing. I'm optimistic on the 48 and a half. I think next week I'm probably going to go over. And I think they're kind of stealth because Luka have to be at least, not in the conversation, but at least adjacent to the conversation

of what might happen with the title if something weird happens with the Lakers. There's this next group of teams and it's like, all right, well, if Luka is the best player in the league next year, they have to at least be mentioned in a title conversation. Is it crazy to think that if something crazy happens with the Lakers, that there's a path for them if a weird Phoenix 2020 type situation happens, that there's a path for this Dallas team? I don't think so.

I think you're right bringing in Reggie Bullock and to a lesser degree, Sterling Brown. I mean, last year, Richardson really, really hurt the team. That was like the big, they traded for him and then he just couldn't shoot. By the end of the playoffs, he wasn't even in the rotation. So he went from like, this guy's going to be our starting two guard playing 30 minutes a night to we just can't even play you at all.

So I think that's a massive upgrade just because the Mavs have never had a ton of 3 and D guys. They either have guys like Tim Hardaway, who are good shooters and can't defend, or Richardson, who could defend but couldn't shoot. So now you have, especially in the backcourt, you have Bullock and Brown. And I think what gets forgotten is just how great Kawhi was in that first round last year. Kawhi in game six, I was at the game and it was incredible. He had 45 points and he guarded Luka for most of the game.

He had to dig all the way in the bottom of his bag to give you an all-time great performance to beat Luka pretty much while Luka had nothing around him. And it's like, I look at the West, I don't see rather many Kawhi Leonard's out there. That's the one guy you're scared of in a playoff series. I think Kawhi Leonard, Anthony Davis, everybody else is beatable in my mind. Yeah, that was their kryptonite team and

we knew it. And that was why the Clippers wanted to play them, which seemed like the worst idea in the world after two games, but then it worked out. And if Kawhi wasn't on them, they could throw Paul George at him too. They could throw Morris at him. Paul George isn't the same defender he was five years ago, but he's still above average. Morris is above average. And they could at least make Luka work for his points. And as you said, when there's no shooters that you're really concerned about, and then you have the weird Porzingis piece of it. They've said some weird stuff with Porzingis. Like Jason Kidd saying we want to use him as a forward. I don't even know how to interpret that. I tried to put it through my weird basketball, like, all right, take the weirdest

things you've heard this week and put it through some translator, try to understand it. Porzingis is a center, he's seven foot three. I don't understand the even concept of him being as a forward. What do you think Kidd was even trying to say with that? Well, because they're going to start Dwight Powell as a role man. So that means KP will have to spot up off Dwight Powell when they're playing together. Because Dwight Powell only can only do is catch lobs. I don't think they'll close games like that. But I think for like 10 minutes a game,

he'll be spotting up off Dwight Powell. I think that's what that means. But how is that different than what he did last year? Last year, he was just spotting up off everybody. Like when I think that's what that means. But how is that different than what he did last year? Last year, he was just spotting up off everybody. When I think of a forward, I think of somebody who is like a Jason Tatum. You throw him the ball on the right side and it's like, I saw time clear out. Or somebody who you're running a pick and roll where they're the ones who have the ball. You can't do that with Porzingis. I don't think there's any other way to use him unless I'm missing something I think what Kidd's getting at

I think it's like we're going to give him a few bones just in the low post you can jack up your 18 foot fadeaway because Carlisle was like that is not efficient we're not doing it get in line in the corner I think Kidd is going to

give him a few shots and say, this will hurt our offensive efficiency. But by giving this man a few shots, maybe he'll try hard run. I mean, maybe he'll try hard run defense. It's the classic big man, right? We're going to throw this big man a few bones. And if it hurts our stats, it hurts our stats. We need his energy on defense. I say this out of love and respect for Kendrick Perkins, 2008 Celtics champion. I enjoy his media work. Don't come at me, Kendrick Perkins.

I enjoy you on Twitter. I'm a fan. This was a strategy the Celtics and OKC used to use with Kendrick Perkins in the first six to eight minutes of first quarters, right? They'd run a couple plays for him so that he felt like he was involved in the game. And then what you really wanted was the defense and the rebounding. So what you're saying is

they're doing the Perkins strategy where in the first quarter, everyone's going to stand around. They'll run like a couple plays for Porzingis, which will probably, based on the numbers we saw the last couple of years, will be pretty horrible. I mean, his low post mid range stuff was pretty bad and he never figured out that foul line dirt game, which to me is like, if he wants to grow as a player, the foul line dirt game would be the way to grow. But he seems to think he should be doing drop steps like Embiid and we've just never seen him do that.

Now, he is saying all the right things and it is clear he wasn't in shape last year, and it is clear he is in shape this year. The guy was really good on the Knicks, and he's only 25. I guess the question is, has there been too many injuries? Like what we saw with Blake Griffin,

where somebody can just have too many injuries, and then they're a different player. He seems too young to just write him off. I'm not writing him off yet. I mean, it's sad it's come to the Perkins. Right. It's sad it's come to that. But I think if you look back,

I'm looking back at his stats right now on the Knicks. He wasn't very efficient ever in New York. He just took a lot of shots. Yep. I think in his mind, I was like, well, let me take some shots. And if I'm not efficient, who cares? I want to shoot anyways.

And that's just how it's going to have to be, I guess. It's funny. In the early days of the internet with basketball, when nobody knew what they were talking about and nobody barely watched anything, there were these guys who were like good fantasy guys who took a lot of shots and we didn't understand the concept of volume. We just looked at points, rebounds, and assists. So it'd be like, if Anton Walker was averaging 25 points a game, he'd be like, wow, that guy's really good. And you didn't look at like, he's shooting 40%.

He's taking 22 field goal attempts a game. He doesn't get free throws. There was no advanced conversation at all. And you're right, like with the Porzingis thing. Yeah, he had a really high usage rate on the Knicks. And as we've discussed in this pod a million times, there's a lot of players who can get to 20

points a game if you give them shots, like we saw with Jeremy Grant last year. I think the difference with Porzingis, right that year when he got hurt, it really did seem like he was turning into a genuine impact offensive player. He was kind of unstoppable. And

it was similar to Dirk where he could face up or it seemed like he could get points around the basket. The face-up stuff, we haven't seen with him, at least in this iteration with Dallas. It seems like his lower body is too stiff.

But maybe that'll change. I guess I don't know where it goes with him, but it can't be worse than what we saw last year. Because Carlisle was out. Carlisle was like, I'm out on this guy. I'm not even going to try to make this work anymore. Yeah, I mean, I think too with the Knicks,

there was never any expectations, right? When he was at the Knicks, Mello was getting older. The team didn't win anything. Even when he was getting his points, it was kind of like, well, KP's going to shoot. We're going to lose 50 games anyways. Not his actual expectations. I think he did kind of get trapped with the Clippers series

because he's kind of an immobile big man. They made Gobert look pretty bad too. They go so small. There isn't much KP can do. That goes back to him being not as healthy. It is hard to ever think he'll get back to where he was. But I think in his mind, he's thinking, if I can get my shots, I'll get more in a rhythm. And if I get more in a rhythm, I'm more comfortable. And it seems like the Mavs are

going to indulge him for that for a while. The question is, how long will that continue? How long will they let him just give him this rope to do this? Well, we talked about the Clippers, I think, are out this year. I don't think we see Kawhi this year. And if we see him, who knows if he'll be able to play every game in a series or any of that stuff. And that was the team they were the most afraid of. You go through the West or the Western contenders,

they're all teams that Porzingis can play against. Let's say they play the Lakers in a series. You can play Porzingis in a Lakers series. They're going to have multiple big guys. They're not going to go small. He's going to have at least a body to stand next to. Phoenix, same thing. They're going to play Aiton.

And you go on down the line, it's like the Clippers really were the only team that were kind of a disaster matchup for him. Now, you might be able to argue Portland might not be the greatest with Covington and Nance if they went smaller and just tried to pull him away on pick and rolls and things like that. But I think the league shifted in his favor a little bit. But I mean, the real reason we're having this conversation is Luka. Because, and I made this point before, but the history of the league says when the guy has that last level breakout, he usually pulls the team with him. And whether he's going to be one of the best offensive players of our lifetime, hard to say. But if you're going to compare him just from what he's accomplished the first few years of his career versus the other guys, he's ahead of them.

He's ahead of Jordan at the same age. He's ahead of LeBron at the same age. He's shit on par with Oscar Robertson at the same age. When Oscar Robertson, the stats were totally out of whack in the 60s. All of those guys were able to pull a team up to a finals

sooner than we expected or close to the precipice of the finals. You know, I was like, wow, this is happening now. I didn't realize I had this in my calendar for two years from now. And they're so good that it just kind of happened. I do think the West is lined up this year for a weird team like that. Now, I think Phoenix is actually a better chance to be the, I can't believe they made the finals team, even though that already happened.

I think people are sleeping on them again, which is great for them. But, you know, is it inconceivable that Luka could pull a team through a couple rounds here? I don't think so. I think he's, you've seen, you've gone to way more of his games than I have. I think he's a generational talent.

So I don't think we can write him off, is my point. I think for sure. To go back to our earlier conversation, the only player I'm really scared about in the West is Anthony Davis. KP is going to be guarding him. I think that can go very poorly for Dallas. As poorly as you can

imagine. Everyone else, yeah, I'll take my chances with Luka and some defenders around him. There's been this whole thing this offseason about Luka needs a secondary playmaker. Luka needs to give up the ball a little more. I mean, Kidd even said that in his press conference on media day.

And I think there's some truth to that. I don't think Luka thinks that, really. I don't think Luka's like, oh, yeah, I need some help. I think Luka's like, I'm about to score 35 points a game and get triple-doubles every single night. I think he's more than capable of doing that. And I think not that Dallas really necessarily planned

it this way, but it's probably for the best the team is set up so that Luka can just dominate the ball the entire game. I mean, kind of like, remember Slovenia in the Olympics? I think he liked that, where he was going for 40 every single night. I think he was totally cool with it. I think, kind of like remember Slovenia and the Olympics. I think he liked that where he was like going for 40 every single night. I think he was totally cool with it. I think that's how he wants to play. I think part of the reason they were doing it the way they're doing in Dallas was

who else was going to fucking score. You have to get to 110 points. Also, it was really efficient in the regular season. That was the other piece. Like they were kind of, if you just look at the stats, like borderline dominant offensively for some stretches. So it's hard to say they were doing the wrong thing. I also think with Dallas, when you're just thinking about them as a potential contender, there's buyout possibilities with them. And we see this every year in, in these teams, we always forget, especially with the contenders and the, and the close to being a contender contenders. Like once we get to January, February, there's going to be guys to pop up. The Nets have a ton of holes.

And then all of a sudden they get LaMarcus Aldridge, Blake Griffin. They start adding guys and they look like a different team. What's interesting about this year is a lot of the teams that would be the buyout, the usual buyout suspects, right? Brooklyn, the Lakers. Those teams are pretty stacked from a roster standpoint. They kind of built their team

in the offseason. Dallas is a team that can add a couple pieces and or make a couple trades. And I keep looking at Dragic in Toronto, and I know they've said all the right things, but Dragic, he's got the Slovenian thing

with Luka. I think Luka considers him to be a mentor from everything I've seen. They have a hole for him. He's on a Toronto team that, you know, the over-unders would certainly suggest that people think this is not a playoff team

and it's a transition year for them. If you saw Precious destroying Andre Drummond on Twitter last night, maybe it'll happen sooner if Precious turns into LeBron. But I think there's a way... The big spots for them to improve would be that Powell spot.

And, you know, basically, Brunson was okay last year. It was a little... It just wasn't good in the playoffs. But that Brunson spot would be the other one. Could you get a better version of Brunson? And could you get a better version of Dwight Powell or somebody who could take some of their minutes? And Dallas is a candidate for that. They finally have kind of a malleable roster.

You know what I mean? For years, they were stuck with that Porzingis trade and not being able to really move pieces. But now it seems like there's at least a little flexibility. I think we have to talk about Kidd for a second. I'm a little dubious. That's the thing I'm most concerned about. And we're talking about expectations. I think Kidd is in the hot seat right away. If they're bad this year,

they're not going to wait too long for Jason Kidd, I don't think. If the team loses in the first round, the pressure on him will be really, really high immediately. So we'll see how he does because there's a lot of expectations and a lot of pressure on him. Yeah, and we have no idea if he's a good coach. Now, the Milwaukee stuff, Miriam Fader's book,

some of the kid stuff was a little eye-opening. Yeah. Where like really strange, bizarre things and it was clear that he needed to leave. Goes to the Lakers. By all accounts, really respected as a right-hand guy for Vogel, especially when you think when he got there,

everybody was like, oh my God, watch out, watch your back, Frank Vogel. But everybody seems to agree he was a valuable guy and really helped them in a bunch of different ways. I don't mind second job head coaching guys. Unfortunately, he's a third job coaching guy. I was going to say, yeah. Yeah, so that's where it gets a little dicier where you start thinking,

well, who are the best third job guys we've had? It's like that's when you get into like Doc Rivers on the Clippers and things like that. You kind of are who you are as a coach. Maybe he learned some stuff. I don't know. But you're right. I think the hot seat thing with GMs and coaches has gone to a whole other level because it's really the only

way you can fix your team with, you know, there's 25 guys in the league that matters, that matter. It's so hard to land superstars. And now the tanking strategy even becomes dicey because you can tank and then, or you can clear out cap space and then there's no free agents for the cap space. So it's like, you really need somebody who can maneuver this stuff or you really need a coach who can overachieve with your roster. And also like there's a priority now for ex-players, which makes it even harder to find those guys. So yeah, you're right.

I think could Cuban move after a year if this doesn't work, we've seen him make drastic moves like that. We've also seen him be insanely loyal to people for way too long. Like Donnie Nelson, what do you think he over, I mean, four or five years longer than it should have lasted for 10 years. And I think until Carlisle stepped down, they probably would come back for year 11. Um, so I don't know. I don't know where it goes, but I think until Carlisle stepped down, they probably would come back for year 11. So I don't know. I don't know where it goes. My guess would be, though,

these last 10 years, there's been no expectations. Dirk was old. The team was not going anywhere. Now, though, the clock is ticking with Luka. I think Cuban will feel it, too. I think everyone in Dallas now feels like... It's in the NBA, right? You have a superstar player. The pressure just goes up every season. Like it's just,

is what it is. Is this the most interesting West team to you heading into this season? Or is there another team that you're, because to me, it's between Dallas and Golden State for that first two weeks. I just want to see it. I want to see if Golden State, if Jordan Poole is better this year,

which I think he's which I think people are realizing he's a huge X factor for them because if he could turn into a legitimate six man when Clay comes back, that's something they haven't really had ever. They've had good benches, but they haven't had somebody that can come in and really swing a game off the bench like that. And then if they get anything from those young guys, and then the Clay piece of it, how healthy is he going to look? The Wiseman, what's he going to look like? I think Golden State's the most fascinating team

for me in the West, but I think I have Dallas second. Yeah, the other time I put in that conversation is Denver. I just want to watch Michael Porter this season. I think he's kind of this massive X-factor hanging over the team and the league as if he can keep getting better. He had a great year

without Murray. He wasn't as great in the playoffs. Now he had the whole offseason to presumably work on his game, get a little more of a handle, have the offense run through him more. I mean, Michael Porter is the guy who, if Denver has a top two seed this season, which is possible, it's because Michael Porter elevated his game. And he obviously has the potential. So that's the other guy I'm watching really closely to start the season is him. Yeah, he's a good ceiling basement guy because there's also a world in which he tries to fill that Murray void. He got the extension and it's kind of like, hey, it's Michael Porter time. It's like, settle down. This is Jokic's team.

You're not there yet, buddy. I could see that going that way too. I don't know. I don't know what to expect. Also, I don't know what to expect from him health-wise. I know he's been healthy the last two years, but he had a really serious back injury and now you're putting more miles on him during the season coming off two condensed seasons.

Can he have the durability that they're going to need from him because that's another piece once you hit that top 20 top 30 top 40

wherever you are level the durability becomes one of the components I think for him if you're Porter it's like I'm planting my flag before Jamal gets back

right because when he got there it's Nicola and Jamal's team I'm just spotting up getting a couple shots up y'all do y'all are the main two guys. Now Jamal's gone,

it's like, all right, I want to be an all-star too. When he comes back, let it be a different team than he came back to. I think that's what is in his mind.

What rookie are you the most excited for? I mean, I've been a Mobley guy from the beginning. I absolutely love him. I'm not sure about his role in Cleveland.

I wrote about that today at The Ringer. I think Cleveland's in a tough position because they've been bad for so long that they're going to be like, I wonder about Altman and Bickerstaff if they're under pressure to win. I think Mobley's the best rookie,

but I do wonder if they're just not going to play him a lot right away to go for the 10 seed. That'd be my question. You and I have beachfront property on Mobile Island. Let's go. We have two, three-decker houses right next to each other, and we're just going to enjoy it. I'm with you. You know how much I love Mobile. Even the brief Summer League stuff, we were able to see from him. It's a long-term investment, though. You got to buy and hold. They're going to be coming at you hard this first year. You just got to buy and hold

that investment. But we talked about the kind of super interesting teams, right? For me, the Cavs are one of those teams in the East, like, they have all this talent

I just like. I have no idea if they make sense together. But when you go through their roster, Garland, it was interesting to see Curry come out the way he did for Garland,

because that's always been a big thing for me when the stars kind of call out the young guys, because the stars see it. Durant did it when we did a pod once and Booker was like 19 and Durant's like, Booker's got it. It's like, really, Booker? It's like, yeah, he's got it. So Curry, for him to come out for Garland like that made me rethink all my Garland thoughts, which I really didn't have any. But you have him, you have the love and Jared Allen playing together. Rubio, could he be a little bit of a glue guy getting people the ball in the right spots? Listen, I also own a shack on Markinan Island. We don't have electricity. There's no toilets. We have to go to the bathroom outside, but I do own property there. So I am monitoring Markinan Island. We don't have electricity. There's no toilets. We have to go to the bathroom outside, but I do own property there. So I am monitoring Markinan Island as well.

Yeah. I think Markinan means Kevin Love just not going to play, I'd be my guess. If you want to be around here, you don't want to buy out, you can just sit on the bench. I think for Cleveland, it's just a matter of, are we going to go with Garland Sexton again? Or has that... Because I think Garland is the point guard, but then it's like now Sexton's the two guard. Now you've got two 6'1 guys, and you have the worst defense in the league. There's probably a direct

correlation to that. That's the thing with Cleveland from the jump. If Garland's your guy, you've got to give him a bigger two guard in your next to him. I just don't believe in having two smaller guards together. I think that's always going to limit your ceiling of your team.

It's like when Cleveland, they did the same thing with Kyrie and Dan Waiters way back when. Yeah. Yeah. It's like these guys don't make sense together.

Here's how the Kevin Love thing goes. I think they already talked to him and I think they said, look, dude, we really want to trade for Ben Simmons. We have no idea if this is going to happen, but the longer this drags on, we might actually have a chance and we need your contract for the trade. You're not going to play this year. We're going to be playing mobile. We're going to be playing marketing. You really have no future here. We're not talking about a buyout yet until we see if we can trade Ben Simmons or not. And once that ship sails, we can talk, but you're not playing for us. Don't expect,

you know, you might get eight minutes here, 10 minutes there, but it's mostly at this point, it's a staring contest because he makes way too much money. It makes no sense on this team. But, you know, it's like the Blake thing where at some point, if he gets bought out, he now becomes kind of an asset on the bio market. If he's somebody that can just come in on the right team and play 20 minutes a game, he's becomes kind of an asset on the bio market. If he's somebody that can just come in on the right team and play 20 minutes a game, he's going to be effective. I think. Some other people are just out completely on him.

The league's passed him by. It's over. I would think he'd go to LA. They could probably... I mean, they're playing the Andre Jordan rotation. They obviously have nothing to lose. They can... The bar's pretty low to clear if he's playing. Hey, people think you're washed up, right? Come here.

We got a place for you. They got a lot of those guys around. That's for sure. All right. So you have a Cleveland piece that's up today, right? On the Ringer? Yeah. All right.

And a couple more NBA preview pieces. It's always good to see your face, Charks. We'll see you on the Ringer NBA show as well this year too, I know. Yeah. All right. Thanks for having me on. Good to see you. How can you be sure you're making the right decision

when choosing a university? The smart approach is to look at the facts. Like the fact that York U graduates have a 90% employer satisfaction rate. That's because across its three GTA campuses, York U's programs are strategically designed

to prepare you for a meaningful career and long-term success. Join us in creating positive change at yorku.ca slash write the future. All right, I know I always say this, this guy was supposed to come on, this lady was supposed to come on, wanted this person on for years.

This is the all-time example of that. I've been badgering Michael Keaton, I think since 2014, Birdman. I went to a Birdman screening. You're going to come on. You didn't understand what a podcast was. I was explaining it to you. I've run into you a bunch of times. Every time you feel bad, you're like, no, no, I'm going to come on. And now it's 2021. Here we are finally. We're doing a podcast. I'm so happy to see you. This is great. Me too. By the way, I didn't feel that bad. Well, I was embellishing.

I was building it up. We should mention you have Dope Sick coming out on Hulu. You have Worth that's already on Netflix. We're going backwards. Look, you've done a million interviews over the years. You've told the story about why you didn't do the third Batman a hundred times.

I feel like you've done all of it. I want to go back to the 80s with you because you're one of my guys. I'm 13 when Night Shift comes out. I'm 13 when you start going on Letterman. And you become one of my guys. But I didn't know the backstory of it took you a while to get there. You're on TV shows. You're on like Mary Tyler Moore Hour.

You're doing stand-up. Can we go back to the late 70s as you're trying to break in during this crazy time when there's only really three TV networks and they're making 100 movies a year and you're trying to break in? What do you remember all these years later about that? That's funny. I was thinking that the other day when people, when people used to say, you know, if I was in my house with my mom and dad or watch whatever you say,

everything was on channel, no matter where you were. Yeah. He's on channel four. And that was it. Cause that was the network. Yeah. Yeah.

I watched that show on channel four. Um, so what I remember, you know, which is a fair amount, thank God. I'm not that far. Well, let me see. I'm downtown. I'm in New York right now. I'm trying to think of where the first place.

I used to leave Pittsburgh in my 65 bug. I might have hitchhiked one time. I took a bus. I can't remember. And I was getting ready to make my move here because I was working different jobs in Pittsburgh. And I was starting to write a little. I was doing some plays. And I actually started doing a little stand-up because I was writing.

I got really interested in writing comedy. And a guy told me about a jazz club. So I was doing that. But then I thought, well, I'm going to New York. I've decided to move to New York. And so I would start to do auditions and I'd come all the way back. And a friend of mine used to let me crash right like 10 blocks from here, a three-story walk-up uh and i would set up an audition or something and go see these people out of the blue and then i'd have to drive my car back i woke up

one morning right over here and i kind of looked out the window and i went i'm looking out the other side and the apartment was this big and and I said, I'm almost positive I parked right down there. It was gone. My car was gone. So every dollar I had went to getting it back, which was about, at that time, about 75 bucks. So I was doing that and working at WQED in Pittsburgh just as a grip, kind of all-around guy, what you did. You just did all kind of things and um work on fred rogers show sometimes and did other and uh there was a guy

there a very funny guy named charlie howe who had written some stuff and was funny and somebody had seen his stuff and and the guy was coming through pittsburgh and recommended him to a show out in uh in la and he got and he got it. He got this job and he also knew he was a comedy writer for Norman Lear. So Charlie, I had sold him a couple of jokes and he and I became friends, really good guy. And he, geez, I don't know, we didn't email. So I guess he wrote me a note or called me or something. And he said, you're going to New York? And I go, yeah, I'm wrote me a note or called me or something, and he said, you going to New York? And I go, yeah, I'm getting ready here in about a month or something.

And he goes, well, you should come out to L.A., give L.A. a try. Because the expression he used that stuck in my head was, it's wide open out here. And I thought, wide open? And my friend, I've known since I was about nine, was going to law school out there. And, yeah, literally, I've known him since I think we're like 10. And he let me stay with him for a while. He was back in Pittsburgh working for the summer, and I stayed in his place with my brother and a bunch of guys.

And I just never left. And I was doing everything, doing anything you could do, parking cars, trying to figure it out. I didn't even know how you went about it, except that I would go visit Charlie occasionally. But there's not anything he could do, really. You know, I didn't have it. So I'd start working in clubs among doing a bunch of other jobs because you didn't have to audition. You just had to sign up for the opening night. First time I did stand-up was here in New York at the Improv

and Catch a Rising Star. Me and Larry dated. Yeah, but you were a good stand-up. That part's been totally lost in the Michael Keaton history. Yeah, yeah. Did you see the Binder documentary, the Mike Binder documentary on the Common Center? It was well done.

So I was doing that, and then the next thing I know, a guy named Norman Steinberg, still a good friend of mine, was writing with Mel Brooks on stuff. And he was a friend of a friend in Pittsburgh. And he was generous, really generous guy. And he said, hey, I got like an extra part. I had like two words or something. And then Charlie said, hey, you ought to come down they're meeting guys about your age it's just a meeting so i went and they the guys talked to me and they said hold on a minute and then go went the other room came out said read this there was a scene and i left

and they said yeah charlie goes hey you got a job and i go really and he goes yeah hey, you got a job. And I go, really? And he goes, yeah, they liked you. And I go, okay. So I show up and I do this job, very frightened. And it worked. And they turned it into a two-parter. And then it just started happening for a while. And then it just died for like a year. There was nothing.

Which was one of the best lessons because I went, oh, I see how this works. Yeah, this is not a done deal just because you start to get a couple of gigs. This is how this is going to be. Which was really good. You have a whole generation of people. Letterman does the same thing, right?

He drives out there. Billy Crystal. It goes down the line. All these people are just going to LA in that 74 to 78 range, trying to get TV writing gigs, anything they can get just to be around. Absolutely. It was amazing when you think of it because I thought at the time, no one really does this. This is such an odd occupation to pursue that I thought writing would be fun. It would just be fun. I really wanted to act, but I'd love to stand up so much.

And I was getting good at it, but I thought, well, let's just focus on that. And when I think about it, you're absolutely right. There was a group. Leno was kind of already like, he was, you know, he had been established. He was such a young guy, but he was so polished. I remember that, but Leonard and I showed up probably weeks apart, you know. I still remember the little house he lived in. I'd go over and there was a little park, a criminal park.

We'd go play basketball. And there was this whole, but when you think about it, there were like seven or eight people, maybe, you know. Some New York guys had started moving out, you know, to work out there. Belzer had been working. I saw Richard Belzer here in New York, and he already looked like a pro to me. He's only a few years older than I.

And so, yeah, there was this... And you think, well, what are the odds? And now, everybody does. There's a stand-up club everywhere, in shopping malls. Everybody is a stand-up. It's weird. Well, I didn't even know, in shopping malls. Like everybody is a stand-up. It's weird. Well, I didn't even know, you know, as we talked about,

I only had three channels plus the local ones in Boston. And you had a show, which I saw on IMDb, because I was like, I wonder if I missed anything from back then. And you had a show with Jim Belushi called Working Stiffs that I literally don't remember or didn't know about. And the reason I didn't know about. And the reason I didn't know about it, because I researched it, it was head to head against the Ropers. And the Ropers, that was the spinoff of Three's Company. I'm like, I'm in on the Ropers. I didn't

know what was on the other channels, but it was CBS. It didn't make it. And now you look back and it's like, wow, you, young Michael Keaton, young Jim Belushi on a sitcom. How did that not work? But that happened a million times back then. Yeah, all happened. And I can't tell you how relieved I was. Really? Oh my God, yeah. You guys were like custodians, right?

Custodians, but the concept was kind of a good idea because they were trying, there was a lot of physical stuff on the show. And it was, you know, lot of physical stuff from the show and and it was you know i was pretty good physically and so they would so that always be there'd be a a set piece that was a physical thing and i think they must have watched laverne and shirley or something because i think laverne and shirley did something like that or the girls would have like a lucy type of thing you know right um and that and so that was kind of the concept,

which actually was kind of a good idea. But almost every time a show, and I was on three that got canceled, I think, the Mary Tyler Moore thing. And although I really enjoyed that, I love being, I actually love showing up for work and all the things. I just never wanted to be,

the thought of being in something for seven years just wasn't good. Murphy's Law was the other one. Yeah. Report to Murphy. Report to Murphy. That one seemed like a weird premise. It's a half hour, but you're a parole officer.

I don't know. What was hilarious about that? I don't know. You could always bring in a criminal of the week or something. I can't believe it didn't make it. But then you have Night Shift, Ron Howard's first movie. Henry Winkler is in it. He's still one of the biggest stars

who had just been the Fonz, so it had to be taken seriously. Shelley Long is in it. She was either about to be on Cheers or had just started on Cheers. I can't remember. And then that's your breakout and you kill it. And I think I'm probably 13

and it was like one of those first R- it. And I think I'm probably 13. And it was like one of those first R-rated movies. I think R-rated comedies where it's like, oh my God, this is like the greatest movie I've ever seen in my life. You're running a call girl thing out of a morgue and it's fucking hilarious. And it's 40 years old. It still holds up.

I still defend it. Wow, that's great. Brian Grazer, one of the producers who was just getting started, found an article, saw that article. And man, it was really a great move on his part. And he grabbed it, somehow got it, and went to Ron Howard. And then they became friends. And of course, foreign to imagine. And yeah, that's that's

where that came from there was an article in uh i don't know if it was new yorker or something or he found that and bought it or something but you you're that age 14 you know when you're when you're a boy and you're like you started hit that age you know and like you just love comedy you know you can't get enough but then 15, 16, 17 all those ages you were right in that prime zone plus it probably seemed like ooh they're doing bad things they're saying words you know which is exciting

well and you I mean that Billy Blaise Jaskies like that was one of the iconic 80s characters and then it was clear from that point on good stuff's gonna happen but then Letterman his show starts taking off that same year. And you go on there and you become one of the guys. I was telling Nephi Kaya, who produces this, before you came on, there was this crew that he had.

And it was all these people that became some of the biggest stars in the world. And they were kind of his crew. It was like Seinfeld, Leno, you, Tom hanks eddie murphy because snl was right there and it was all like these early stages of all those guys but you would come on you would crush and you had such a good repertoire with him well you know you know there was he when he started i think he'd bear me out on this he was like a lot of the late night hosts and they're they're so different now but he was he really wanted to know like on carson i only did carson one time and i i just went on as a guest and i was really glad that i could do it because it was i think he had about 10 more shows to go or something i don't know. They wanted to know what you were going to do.

What are you going to say? What's the setup? What's the thing? And Dave will tell you, he was, he wanted, he didn't want any surprise because if it gets uncomfortable or goes south and the show's done and he really wanted to know.

And so you kind of had to toe the line or you kind of had to, you know, not play along, but, you know, do that. And then there comes a point where he goes, nah, these are the guys that I trust because they're never going to take me too far off. Even if something doesn't work, you know, you know, you know, it'll end up okay. And so then it got really relaxing, really comfortable. The guys now all seem easier about it.

They can roll. They really roll quite easily. All of them. You know, they're just very, they're very facile. Well, the interesting thing about back then is you go on that show and it's just gone. Yeah. You're on it. And then there's the record of it.

Now you go on and any sort of anything could end up being on social media the next day or it lives on in YouTube for the next hundred years. You didn't know that in 1983. No, that's right. That's right. I didn't even think of that. It's true. You could have some deranged appearance

or you could have the funniest thing ever and it just was like gone. Or they'll pick one thing and play it over in something, which is always nerve-wracking. And you know, it's tricky because now at the same time, you have to be really careful, but simultaneously just let it, let it go. You know what I mean? And go, I don't know, man, I'm just going to be me and we'll, you know, I trust my instincts, but you know, whatever, it doesn't always work, but there's,

there's so good about it now. I said, most of these guys, I noticed they can pick it up and they can plus they edit now, you know? You know? So if you go on, like sometimes I'll go on and they'll keep me up and they can, plus they edit now, you know, you know, so if you go on, like sometimes I'll go on and they'll keep me on and we'll keep goofing around on and on. My segment will be this long, but they have to cut it down, you know,

to fit, fit the spot. So night shift hits. Yeah. You become a thing. What happens to you? You buy a house. Like what,

what, what are the next couple of months look like? You grabbing rolls, people are throwing parts at you. What is it? What is look like? You grabbing rolls? People are throwing parts at you? What is it like? A lot of stuff has come my way. I remember a really uncomfortable meeting

at Warner Brothers that and guys will my peers or whomever or anyone, actually actors or anyone actually actors are funny. People will under understand this. And I had this, God to Warren brothers, the executives want to meet you. You know,

you have a meeting. I'm going, okay, what is it for? And they said, they just want to get to know you. They want to know you. And, uh, there were, there were good guys. Uh, they were all very young at this time. Uh, uh, I liked them. I didn't really know them, really. But they weren't that much older than I was, really. They were pretty young, you know, but I mean, older than I, but, you know, by maybe seven years or so. And I remember walking in the room thinking, I don't know what this is for. And they were like goofing around and like, it was kind of fratty, you know, and it was kind of like, like I could tell, oh, I'm there to entertain them.

I'm like to be, I'm the, I'm the wild guy, you know, I'm the goofy guy. And he's funny. We're going to sit in a room and I felt so uncomfortable. I didn't know how to be, you know, like I can't be on, you know, and I like, you know what I mean? Unless something comes up and you just go off on something. So you thought you were like Robin Williams? Yeah.

Come in, wind him up, and go. Yeah. It was uncomfortable. And truthfully, that night shift guy, I only do it if I go, what's the truth? I always approach things as the character, the guy. Not that I wouldn't say, here's an opening to do something really funny and I would improvise something really funny or I'd find, hopefully, really funny or I'd find a way to do a thing that I knew would be funny. But it always came from a

perspective of who's the character. Stay true to who the person is, always. Well, that character from Night Shift was so indelible people they didn't have a history with you they just assumed that was you and then you do mr mom and it's like oh oh so he's actually a real actor i didn't know you might be to me you might have just been billy blaze in the next 20 movies you made you know i had no idea that was what that was what i feared you know that was what i i feared but i thought yeah thought, maybe you've got to do something. You've got to guard against that. You've got to set it up at least.

What's the worst thing that happens is that you only get hired for that kind of guy. You knock off a couple of few years. He makes them go, and you move on to the next thing. It wouldn't have been the end of the world, but I really didn't want that to happen. I remember getting this thing from this guy, John Hughes. And no one had heard of John Hughes. I mean, there were probably people out there who had read some stuff that he was writing. He's an advertising guy in Chicago. And, you know,

you probably can relate to this or know this or people have told you this. If you get a script and you laugh out loud like big laughs like three times or you go there's something in here that's all it usually takes is go oh no no there's something there's something in here and i remember reading and thinking uh you know that makes me smile and so that's funny or oh that could be really funny or oh that's a really good way to sit. Whatever I thought, I just knew there was something in it, and I liked what it was about. And in a lot of ways, it was ahead of its time.

If you really break, I always say this about that movie, you should break that movie down and look at what it's talking about. The time was, you know, rough economically in America, you know. Women going into the workplace, men staying at home. It became part of the nomomenclature, Mr. Mom. It was an expression that was used. I'm a Mr. Mom, or I'm going to Mr. Mom it this weekend or whatever. So I knew it was good.

So I met this guy, John Hughes, and we're sitting, and I really liked him. He talked about himself an awful lot. I didn't get much to say about John. But I remember sitting there saying, I listened to what he was saying about the script, and I went, have you thought about directing this? I think you should direct this. And he said, no,

no, I don't want to direct. I'm writing these other things and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And eventually he became John Hughes, you know, iconic 80s guy, really, really good. Yeah, Mr. Mom was fun. fun it wasn't exactly it had to be adjusted uh my my my partner at the time who was my manager and kind of producer and we uh and and we kind of brought in i think we brought another writer or we started writing some scenes because

it kind of was going down a road that was not really going to work comedically. I could tell. The director was a good guy. He came from advertising. He had a really good, nice visual sense. He didn't do a lot of comedy.

So I started to get a little nervous about that. So, you know, you know how it works. You get in, you say, let's talk about this scene. I'm not sure this works.

I have an idea. Like the chainsaw scene, you know, that happened at the last minute. We have this rewatchables movie podcast. We do. We break these down.

We did Mr. Mom, I think like a year ago or a year and a half ago. It's pretty fascinating rewatch because as you said, like the whole Mr. Mom concept really drove the movie because it was new. And that became part of the selling point of the movie where it's like, no, no. so this guy,

he's not going to work. His wife's going to be the one who's making the bacon. He's going to be home trying to navigate the family. It seems crazy that this was a thing, but in 1983, it was a thing. It was a thing.

Now, it's like, I'm looking around here and there's the hipster dads everywhere, you know, sensitive guys. And, and, you know, and I'm thinking,

wow, that's so interesting. Cause the idea was, you know, and I also, I was emasculated. It was great. You know,

I felt like I thought, you know, it was just such an interesting thing to do. It was totally clear to me though. The take on it was totally clear I totally got what it was you know I said yeah this is really about this and this is how this guy would feel because that James

Austin what happened was I said I knew that the scene should be would be funny if he felt totally panicked that here comes this guy going away there's this trip with my wife and he's swabbing. And it's the great Martin Maul being really funny.

And I go, man, this guy's panicked. He's got to be panicked. You know, this is, he's just insecure right now. So the whole change something kind of came together at the last minute. I said to the prop guy, we were running the scene and kind of getting ready. And I went, something off here. And I said, hey, I need like a tool belt or a thing. In fact, I don't even think the overalls.

I think I threw them on and said, yeah, overall. He goes right with a chainsaw, and I go, how about this? I go, great. He said, you want these? And he gave me the goggles. I said, oh, man, perfect. And then it became about that, you want these? And he gave me the goggles. I said, oh, man, perfect. And then it became about that, you know. And then, yeah, man, you say, I go into this thing where I go,

Martin goes in and kind of looks at me like, what's going on with this guy? And I go, you want a beer? Martin looks at me and goes, 11 o'clock in the morning. And I go go scotch so he Martin I said this a thousand times Martin came up with the line 220-221

whatever it takes yeah so then you do two more comedies you do Johnny Dangerously which was a thing back in the day I don't I never see it on cable I don't know maybe

it's owned by some weirdos there are devout are devout fans. Yeah, devout. Definitely was a thing. And then you did Gung Ho, which became, which was another one that tapped into like that coming out in 1986, but this whole narrative that

America was having. Yeah. Where it's like, you know, the American car companies were starting to lose their luster in a lot of different ways, and this movie tapped into that. The narrative behind it, I think, is still pretty interesting. Yeah, you hit it on that. That's exactly right.

The narrative behind it, what it's about, and a guy. And also, he's heroic. Character Hunt is heroic. He wants to help his town. He needs to pull it together and kind of understand both sides. In retrospect, in fact, Brian Grazer and I were talking about this, in retrospect, you kind of look back and go, wow, there's...

Yeah, there's some tough stuff in there. Yeah. Yeah. But it was also, it was 1986. So you start realizing at this point, I have to shift. I have to start making dramas. I have to at least show that side of me a little bit.

I think, I'll tell you exactly what I think happened. I've thought about this. I think that happened when there's a scene in Night Shift. And like I said, I just came at the role, granted, I really wanted to riff and I wanted to be funny, but I created a character that could be funny. The basics were there and the writing

the basic writing was really good those guys are really good comedy writers but there's a scene where henry and i are talking it's christmas time i think we had a party and we're talking about it and i reveal something about my father and i remember like the tone in the room changed for a minute and i got really self-conscious and And I think Ronnie said, hold on a minute. And then he took a break and we, there was some discussion or something. And I think he moved the camera, I think. And he shot at a different angle.

And I think he went, whoa, I didn't know he was going to go there, you know? And I didn't do it. I did it because I thought that's probably what the guy would do, you know? And it was a dramatic, it's a dramatic moment in that movie. So, so I, but that was saying when you were talking about buying the gravestone, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm under the tree. Yeah. And so we, so I think it kind of happened there,

but nobody was really paying attention to that except maybe Ron Howard and some other people. And, uh. And so like that. And then I got an opportunity to do Clean and Sober. And I thought, you know, I didn't say I need to prove myself as a dramatic actor so much as I just wanted to do this thing that I thought was really well written. I mean, I'm sure at some point I thought, you know, not for nothing, but, you know, this will open things up. I was always looking to create, um, more opportunities than just get like stuck.

I was very afraid of being stuck in something cause I knew I'd get bored. Well, it's funny, even though you were totally different actors, I think Tom Hanks was in a very similar situation in the eighties where he was also getting typecast with certain type of roles. And Robin Williams was too, where he was just, Robin Williams is supposed to be like the, he comes on and he's a chainsaw in a hot tub.

And that's who he is in a movie. And then you could see him, he starts making like Moscow and the Hudson and World According to Garp. He's like trying to like move away from Mork and that high energy stuff. But sometimes the audiences don't want it. No, because they usually don't want it. It's usually a problem.

It's easier for me, like Robin, imagine that. Imagine having to make that leap. Now, on the other hand, sometimes people go, wow, he's really good, just because you're serious. They go, you're really... That doesn't necessarily mean you're great. People talk about range. I always go, just because you do a comedy and do a drama, that has nothing to do with range. It's like, where's the range within all the stuff? But yeah, he really has work coming out for him.

Do you feel nostalgic at all for that run of 80s and early 90s movies, way before we moved into the superhero era, feel nostalgic at all for the, that run of eighties and early nineties movies, like way before we moved into the superhero era, which you ironically started and these franchise movies and things like that, where you could just make these quirky movies that they might make it. They might not like the difference between, I don't know, clean and sober and night shift, right. And clean and sober, I think did okay. But where you could just make these movies that now I don't even know really where you would make them. I guess unless Netflix or Amazon greenlit them, I don't even think the scripts happen.

No, that's correct. Yeah, I am. Well, I never really, in nostalgia in general, I never really understood until recently. Now I get it loud and clear. But yeah, man, that time, I don't know why those times would ever come back. I mean, it's too bad because you're right to say, hey, this is pretty good. Let's just go make this and we'll get the money back or we might sell it right and make a ton of dough. I don't know if that happens anymore. First of all, Adam McKay was saying

the other day, he said, comedy's really in a tricky spot right now. He couldn't quite put his finger on it. But look around me. I'm a newspaper reader. And today, I just had to set the times down. I'm like, I got too much to think about today. I got a lot to do. And I called him.

I went, that's bad. That's nervous making you know rough and you would think well this would be a time to go and be really funny somewhere and it's on television but when you think about it so much of the great comedy came out of television anyway you know that that funny movie was one in about every 10 whereas on television there was there was a lot of good comedy around if you were watching some of the Norman Lear stuff and the MTM stuff.

You watch the Bob Newhart show. The Bob Newhart show now, just watch it. It's so good. It holds up so well. Just so solid. That'll really make you nostalgic when you sit back and watch that. Yeah, I feel that way about Cheers,

even though it's super dated. But the writing of it and how patient they were with everything. And it wasn't just like set up, set up, joke, set up, set up, joke. They actually, you know, they tried to have real moments on that show. And perfect. Thinking about the comedy in 2021, I'm with you. Like there's a weightiness to everything now. And also, I honestly think an inability for people to laugh at themselves sometimes and to be poked fun at. And that's another thing. It's a very sensitive time, just in general. making people uncomfortable, going into an area you probably shouldn't go into and people trusting that you're going to make

the right decision with it. And now it's like nobody wants to even take a chance because they don't want to get canceled. Man, you're 100% right. I don't know how it plays out, honestly. I don't either because you're right. I think one reason is there's so much... Everybody kind of is a star.

Now they walk around the streets thinking I'm kind of in my own movie because I'm, I'm tick talking and I'm Instagram and I'm thinking, and I, I'm, I'm kind of somebody in a weird way. They kind of are, you know,

you go, okay, well, and then, and then people start taking themselves seriously. And, uh, it's just,

it's just, it's gotten tighter with everything you can do and say. That's why I think Curb Your Enthusiasm is so refreshing to people. You know, here's a guy who does kind of horrible,

horrible things and acts in a horrible way sometimes. It's so fun, so refreshing. Well, it seems like certain people have been grandfathered in. I think Curb Your Enthusiasm is grandfathered in. Charles Barkley feels like he just has an incredible amount of leeway for whatever reason. Howard Stern does.

There's some people that can still push it. That's a great expression, grandfathered in. If you're not grandfathered in, you're in trouble. Yeah, I think you look back at some ofed in, if you're not grandfathered in, you're in trouble. Yeah. I think it's, you look back at some of the stuff that was really funny in the eighties and some of it's really inappropriate or, or cross lines that just wouldn't be crossed now. And other times it's funny just because they knew it was inappropriate as they

were doing it. But there was a wink wink that now I wonder if it exists. I wonder, I have, I've been wondering if it's going to reach a point where people go, you know what? Fuck it. We can't all be careful.

We're just going to, we're just going to, you know, not go out and purposely be inappropriate, but just say, I can't, I can't think like this all the time. Like I was watching the TNT last season.

Uh, the guys that show is so good. And then, and you, you know, all those guys, uh, Charles so good, man. You know all those guys. Charles is on. It's like they have nailed the combination.

Don't touch that. Don't touch anything. Sometimes it even gets, like, not uncomfortable, but you look at Shaq, and Shaq will look down the thing, and you go, whoa. It's kind of perfect. They shouldn't touch it. But look at one show, but what that's a little too much

Oh Charles says who's really funny He says, uh, and he's not trying to be tells us those story. They asked him where he got something like like a Brace or some of the days that they were just riffing and talking. He goes where that thing comes in. He says straight face he said Well, I was in a steam room with a man and he gave of him and talking. He goes, where'd that thing come from? And he says, straight-faced, he says, well, I was in a steam room with a man and he gave me something. I saw that. Remember that? Kenny Smith had a heart attack. Yes.

He could not stop laughing because it was hysterical because him, it was so great and I thought, that's really great because now you say it, people might say, well, what would be wrong with being in a steam room? Right, right. It was so great. And I thought, that's really great because now you say it, people might say, well, what would be wrong with being in a studio? You know? Right, right.

It was just funny. It was just the image of him sitting there with naked guys in a studio room. Right. Yeah, ball busting has become a lot harder to pull off. You talked about the fame stuff and how everybody's famous. There was a really good article in the New Yorker a couple of weeks ago by Chris Hayes about this, about is one of the reasons society feels dysfunctional now is because fame is dysfunctional. And now there's more people than ever who are famous for varying degrees, whether

they have 2000 fans or a thousand or a million or a hundred thousand, everybody's dealing with the consequences of being a public figure. And maybe that's why it's so messed up right now. And maybe, and you know, I never, I mean, you know,

without being sounding too pretentious, I always felt a little nervous. I felt really good at work, uh, on a stage. I never really, I still don't feel that great. First,

a talking about myself, you know, I was raised very Catholic. so that's one reason. But also, it's like too much. Now, everything's everywhere. And then you go, well, you better be out there, dude, if you want to keep doing this. And I go, all right. And I try that.

And then I really don't want to be out there. And I don't know. It's a really odd feeling. If I was starting out now, I think now, if I said, hey, it's a really odd feeling. You know what, if I was starting out now, I think now if I said, Hey, I think I'll go to Los Angeles and be this. I don't, I don't think I'd make it. I don't know what I'd do. I'd probably be a kid who would make things on his phone would be my guess. That's probably what I would do. Well, when you had that, when you had that first wave of fame, how did you deal with it? Were there repercussions? Like, did you cross the line? Were

you partying too much? Like what was, what what how were you dealing with that first wave in the early mid 80s oh i was probably before i even moved to l.a i was probably partying too much but never but partying like the goofball that i was you know right but you know doing stuff you guys probably did when you were growing up just yeah doing stupid silly stuff you know um and having a lot of laughs have a lot of fun not really you know it got you know, and having a lot of laughs, having a lot of fun. Not really. You know, it got confusing because now there's a lot of attention on you. It probably got confusing for a while.

But no, it didn't really. I really, you know, nothing changed. You know, I'm never a drug guy. So that wasn't, no. I mean, there's just more pressure all the time, you know. And that takes a long time to figure out. You know, I was young. I was really young. So that Batman movie. They were reviving this series and the whole superhero infrastructure wasn't in place yet, but then they picked you and everybody was like,

wait, what? And this was right as we're heading into like, it's the premier magazine era. It's William Goldman writing for New York magazine. And it's like, people are really starting to care about the movie industry and who gets cast and what movies are busts and which movies become hits.

And they, there's this kind of bigger interest in it. Siskel and Ebert are hitting their peaks. And so you get cast at Batman and it was, I think, one of the most stunning casting decisions ever. And then you crushed it. And in a weird way, you win. But for a year, it didn't seem like you won at all.

It seemed like you were going to mess up the movie. Yeah, totally. Wow, you really... I already knew about this by you because then we talked about it once but that you really take that big view like culturally what happens uh in you know culturally what happens because you're you're right that i never probably thought about like that but that i'm sure you're right that is what was going on. There was an awareness, a premier magazine, and movies were a thing. There was that whole thing where before that, I think people just made a movie and did a movie and went to a theater. But that's what was happening. So there was a real awareness.

And the thing with me that I didn't get it. I mean, actually, when I think back about it, I kind of see probably now, or I thought back about it a long time ago, I went, oh, yeah, I guess I could see some people who really care about this at all going, wait a minute, that doesn't fit with what I see or what I want. Weirdly, I guess I kind of get it. I never thought about stuff like that, and I didn't know there were that many people who thought about it one way or another. So I was kind of amazed that people are actually sitting about thinking about this, you know, shouldn't you be thinking about something else? So in retrospect, I went,

oh yeah, if you're like a really insane fan person about this thing that could be off-putting. And you're right, I then had to sit there and got, I distinctly remember it was in the Wall Street Journal I was flying back. We already started shooting. I used to, you know, my son was young then.

And if I had a minute off, I mean, I used to take the Concorde. And I didn't have a lot of dough then. The Concorde was really expensive, but really cool to fly. I met Prince on the Concorde. Wow. Yeah. It was really cool. And, you know, you take off, you could be back in New York. I met Prince on the Concord one time. Wow. Yeah, it was really cool.

And you take off, you could be back in New York in like, I don't know, four and a half hours or something like that or less time. It was like a rocket ship. I'd fly home all the way to L.A., spend two and a half days with my kid, and then fly back to London. I did that two or three times. I was so tired. And I was on there sitting and reading the Wall Street Journal,

and I see, you know, how they do those, I don't know if they still do it, but it's kind of a drawing, you know, of a person. It's not a caricature. It's actually not a photograph. I can't explain it. I'll find a paper someday

and show you what I mean. But it was an image of me, and I, you know, a likeness. And I thought, huh, I wonder why I'm in there. And then I read the article and it was about, what is the matter with these people? He can't be Batman. That was thrust. That's where I heard about it. I remember going, I didn't even, I thought it was weird. That was odd. And then I guess, I don't ever remember it making me too worried, but I must have thought about it. I must have said, oh, I'm starting to feel uncomfortable now.

But I just kind of had to go do the gig. And you're right, then people are waiting. And then, of course, it's like, oh, my God, this is the only way it could be done. There could be another way. I mean, the risk taker was really me, but Tim. Tim and all of us, actually, Jack and everybody involved. Because if it was not going to work, it was going to be bad. Yeah, the moves back in the day were either you do the no-name guy,

like when Christopher Reeve, nobody really knew who he was yet, and he's Superman. Or you get just a famous star. But they kind of go the third way, which is like, no, no, really knew who he was yet. He's Superman. Or you get like just a famous star. Right. But they kind of go the third way, which is like, no, no, we're actually, we're going to hire a real actor and somebody who you might not have expected

and he's going to kill it. There was also like in the late 80s, and I don't really know the reason for this. And maybe there's a bunch of different smaller reasons. Maybe it's because these movies were on cable a lot. We had VCRs at that point, so we could rewatch things over and over again. By like the late eighties, people felt real ownership over movies and franchises that they love. So like Batman was this TV show that I

loved as a kid. And a lot of people loved as a kid. And we're kind of waiting for somebody to do the movie correctly. And then there was this weird ownership. Like we were invested in it. Like we had a vote and it's like, we don't have a vote. We're just going to see it. You know, same thing with like the 48 hour sequel or when like they've, you know,

years later when they brought the star Wars franchise back or whatever, it's like, this is my movie. Don't screw this up. And that's the first time I remember really feeling that with the Batman thing. It was a movie they hadn't even made yet and people were mad about it and it was like this new era

we moved into with fans like feeling like they could affect content that hadn't even been made and now I think they do in a big way in that whole universe I mean a huge way you know that whole universe has become really interesting to me

actually I never i had zero interest in all that i just find it interesting like societally you know or nor and how well they do it you know how well marvel does things and not bc and all that stuff you know i i kind of had no interest i did the movie and i watched it i went yeah it's fun i really liked it and i did another one and then I went, whatever. And I just, that was kind of going on. And then I looked at it and I went, wow, just on a corporate level, you know, a cultural level.

It's amazing. You know, I mean, it's amazing. And you're right. People, fans kind of do control. Like I think they figure out, oh, here's what we got to give them because they really get it. And then they really figured out how to do it. People talk about it in ways that still kind of surprises me. I don't know anything about any of that, honestly.

I'm playing catch up with those kind of movies. Oh, yeah. But I think the 1989 Batman is patient zero for everything. Yeah. I mean, literally everything. And I don't think for people listening to this who are maybe, I don't know, under 40 who don't remember, it was the biggest thing in the world when it came out. It was like everybody had to go and it became the only thing anyone talked about for three weeks.

And it was so successful and accomplished so many different things like for giving Tim Burton the chance to direct that. Nobody would have given a young creative filmmaker being able to get Nicholson and like the kick-ass part yeah and all this stuff that lays this blueprint but ultimately it completely changed movies and probably led to a lot of the stuff I hate about movies now you know in a weird way the stuff that we love about movies was semi-sacrificed because that movie was so successful. And now that's like how they have to feel like half of the movies, like,

like you made Birdman. What was that? 2014. Yeah. One of the, one of the reasons it was such a delay was this like, wow, this is such a creative movie.

Why don't they make movies like these, you know? And I don't know. It's part of, I think it's just easier to try to make these movies that can be worldwide and part of a franchise. Yeah. And they keep,

they keep the business afloat, I guess, I guess, you know, if you got that, then maybe you can slide another one or two. But like you said,

it used to be, you know, there'd be, you know, 12, you know, of various styles or genres of movies. Did you have any idea?

I just realized also what a risk it was for Tim, because you're right. People don't talk, I don't think, often enough about him doing Batman, the thing we take so seriously. But he changed everything. He changed so much about the industry, you know, just, you know, by his take on that, uh, what he, what he saw visually. But you knew though, cause you had done Beetlejuice with him. So you knew, you knew what was going to happen. No. Yeah. But, but we didn't know, we didn't know if we could pull it off because it was enormous. It was enormous undertaking. It's really difficult to make for him to make for all this,

but especially for him. And I was, that was very, very risky that that went down. That was going down in a big, big way. But I knew this was a really creative guy. This was,

you know, were you prepared for the level of fame that came out of that movie and how gigantic that movie was? Cause I don't, I don't see how you would ever think that could happen no no i i that yeah that became that was that was big that was uh gobs i'm a bit gobsmacked as brits say probably but you know fortunately i had been around doing some stuff so it wasn't it wasn't like some kid from a farm in the middle of Indiana going home. It's kind of like, yeah, okay, this is big. This is another level.

Because it was international. Yeah. International. Yeah. Yeah, any country. Yeah, I was watching the Val Kilmer documentary, and he was talking about how much he hated wearing the suit and how awful the suit was and how cumbersome it was

and what a nightmare it was. And then they tried to get him to a second one. And he's like, I just don't want to wear the suit again. Was the suit that bad? It wasn't bad. Yeah. It sounded miserable. Yeah, it's miserable.

It's pretty miserable. But in a way, it's pretty miserable but in a way it's also fun and it's also really it worked for the for how i for the approach you know work for the approach to the guy for me i just you know it's a tired somewhat tired actor expression but i just used it said okay well how do you how do you use this you know right use the thing you know what's your inner discipline to kind of you know to grind okay, well, how do you use this? Use this thing. What's your inner discipline to grind it out every day? My back wasn't the same for a lot of years. Really?

Yeah. And also, I was playing hockey in a league, and that didn't help, that position. I was never a great skater. I didn't learn to play hockey until I was like 31 or something. Uh, and, and, uh, maybe later. Well, you made a hockey movie. Yeah. That's how I learned to play. That's how I got on the league. And I was smart enough to, I felt so in love with it.

It's the greatest game to play. I mean, I played everything when I was a kid. Hands down, man, if I could have played hockey when I was a kid, you know, we couldn't, we had nowhere to go. I wanted to, but my dad would have had to have taken us to a rink so far away. He was working too job. He was never going to do that. Plus we could have never afforded the equipment. But, but that, that, that's, that's of all the games I ever played,

might be the most fun. And I was never really that good. So I had to learn for the movie. And then I and then I just started playing and joined a league I was smart enough the first year to join a full contact league oh my god

which was totally stupid first of all I wasn't as good as any of the other guys and then I got smacked around and then the next year they changed it to like you couldn't hit in the open ice or something you couldn't hit a minimal contact and ice or something, or you couldn't hit it, you know, minimal contact. And it just kept getting a little less violent. It was fun though.

Did you, did you see when they, I mean, they kept making Batman movies over and over again. Yeah. Did you see the ones that Nolan made or were you just out? You're like, I'm out on the franchise I was into. I'm not going to watch. Or did you actually watch them? No. And I swear to God, there's no...

I almost hesitate even talking about this because I think people may have interpreted it as, well, he was angry. I had no feeling about one way or another. It's not the kind of movie I would probably run to see. I mean, that's a little weird because I started with Tim Burton and all those guys. You would think I'd be curious enough. Uh, I've never seen, uh, the only thing I could say is the

one I turned down and said, I can't do this, that I know would have been painful because, you know, that kind of, you went, oh man, you know, my opinion, you just took something and, you know, something that he created and, you know, and, and you just took something, you know, something that he created and, you know, and you decided to go there. That would have been, I wouldn't have been crazy about watching that. So I may have, like, walked through the living room and went, wow, and I couldn't watch it. Besides that, the others I just, and I would love, I did watch a little bit of one because Christian Bale is like a monster. I mean, it's unbelievable. And Chris Nolan is so talented.

I think I watched a little bit of that. I thought, wow, so different technically what they do. That's impressive. But I couldn't tell you what they're about, really. Well, I mean, there's been a lot written about

why you turned down that third Batman movie, but nobody talks about... How bad it was. No, I mean, there's been a lot written about why you turned down that third Batman movie, but nobody talks about it. It was really because Bonds had left the Pirates. You were an emotional tailspin. The Pirates had completely fallen apart. You never got over

the hump, and I don't think people realize the ramifications it had on your life in the mid-90s. You get it. It took me a lot of years to recover. When do you go back? First of all, nobody's the ramifications it had on your life in the mid-90s. You get it. You get it. You get it. It took me a lot of years to recover. When do you go back? First of all,

nobody's made the perfect documentary of the early 90s pirates. By the way, here's a Barry Bonds story. Okay. You're going to find, well, you probably already are because of what you do.

You're going to sit around one day and somebody's going to be talking to you and you're going to start telling a story about something. And then it's going to hit you and you're going to start telling a story about something and then it's going to hit you you're going to go wow i'm a guy who actually has stories like you know you sit around you go man this guy's got so many great stories so like they'll say to you hey what's so-and-so like you know oh man this guy has so many stories then you go wait i think i'm one of those guys when did this happen? Yeah. So I called Bonds one day because I knew him

a little bit. You know, I knew Bobby Bonilla who's such a great guy. And, you know, Bonds was amazing. I mean, my theory on him was

he looked at everything, you know, these guys are blown up, you know, hitting 150 home runs, you know, like two seasons and stuff. And he's going, not only am I a better athlete than these guys, home runs, you know, like two seasons and stuff. And he's going,

not only am I a better athlete than you guys, I said, I can, I just can't, I can't, I can't keep up with that. If, if,

you know, how am I going to keep up with that? I'm not, I'm not, you know, doing what we're, I'm not going to say a lot. And he probably,

he probably said, okay, let's level the playing field. Right. And see what happens, you know, now, now, you know And he probably said, okay, let's level the playing field. Right. And see what happens. Now, he also had some attitude problems when he was in the bird, weren't too cool and everything. But he was a young guy.

So one day I call him and he, because I forget, I think I had him come to a premiere or something in Pittsburgh. I did. And, you know, he was a good guy and everything. So I called him back to talk to him about something. And it's like November. And they had gone. So they were probably, that might have been a playoff year.

I'm trying to think what year it was. So, you know, you're playing up into October maybe. Maybe not quite. Maybe September, whatever. And it's like you know a couple months later at the most and his wife says uh wait I'll go get him and he goes and he's kind of out of breath they go hey man how you doing we're talking I go what are you up to he goes I was I was just working out made like a dummy I go uh really why what are you doing I'm

thinking he's getting ready for something and there's a pause and then he says what do you mean i go what i mean why are you working out he goes i'm a professional baseball player you know so whatever he was doing maybe he was doing maybe he wasn't doing he was doing he was also on it training working on it you know yeah like lebron and all the greats that's 365 days a year. 100%, man. 100%. I saw the coolest thing this guy Ryan Reynolds did for this kid, for the Pirates. It's really good.

They showed him he stayed after one day and all he was working on was to center how to feel the guy was working with him. What, you know, to,

to pick up the ball properly, you know, this cross step kind of thing. He was on over and over and over again. And they talked about, he'll stay in like work longer and take extra BP and stuff like that. Work on little things. Those are the guys,

those are the guys, you know, those are the guys that get really good. It's not great. Yeah. I tell my kids that because both of my kids play sports it's like you hit a level where everybody

is as good as you and the ones that go the extra level are the ones that are just yeah they're obsessed with it they're doing it every day absolutely

and then there's of course guys who just have some sort of god damn thing right yeah you hit Bo Jackson shows up but that's it

yeah I'm great with Bo Jackson shows up but that's it. Yeah. I'm great with Bo Jackson. God. I mean, I was talking to, I had a couple friends over yesterday and we were talking about

if you could change the course of somebody's career and just remove the injury they had, who would be your number one draft pick? And we all instinctively

said Bo Jackson. Really? Yeah. Because he, people don't talk about what he did enough because there were guys who played two sports,

which is really impressive, but he was really good at both sports. Oh, yeah. For a long time. We did a 30 for 30 about him and we didn't even really have, it was one of the only ones

where we didn't even really care what the structure was. It was just like, let's just make sure we get a Bo Jackson interview and just show some highlights. This thing's going to work. There's no way this could fail with the Bo Jackson highlights and this whole generation of people who hadn't really seen it yet. And it was what it was.

It was Bo Jackson. There you go. Wasn't he the first one to break his back? Oh yeah. He was the first one to climb the wall. That stuff. If you saw, if you saw Sid Bream, would you punch him? What would happen? Would you knee him in the balls? It wasn't Sid.

It wasn't Sid. It was Francesco Cabrera, I think. Well, he had the hit, but Sid had the slide. The slowest guy in the league somehow scored from second. I know. Because obviously I'm a Red Sox fan and people know about our iconic losses. the slowest guy in the league somehow scored from second. I know. Cause you know,

obviously I'm a Red Sox fan and people know about our iconic losses and there's been, you know, the Cleveland has their thing and Buffalo, Minnesota, that, that Pittsburgh stretch where they can't get over the hump. And then that Braves game,

which is one of the great games ever. And then the way they lost and who is, who is advanced? Like is just slumped in center field for like 10 minutes and that game that was one of the most dramatic games of my life ever ever and if that throws just off like four or

five feet the other way he probably gets thrown out I was that was so upsetting so Sean was still young and I was coaching on baseball stuff and he you know we were really into baseball watching everything he was so hard years and I was coaching him on baseball and stuff. And we were really into baseball and watching everything. He was so hard-working. Years and years and years go by.

Maybe like five years ago, six years. No, longer. Maybe seven, eight years ago. We're talking about baseball or something's going on, and he's got a very good sense of humor. And he says, Dad, when do you think we can... What was the adjective? When do you think we can give up this

not immature, this kind of... Fruitless? Yeah, this fruitless hatred of the Atlanta Braves. And Mike gets like, never. Never, ever. Here's another great story. I was making a movie in Atlanta. Me and John Hancock. John Hancock's

kind of a baseball fan, director. We're making The Founder. Yeah, good one. So I go, hey, let's go see the Pirates. He's a really good guy. And I said, let's go watch Braves game. And I'm still hating them inside.

The Tomahawk Chop. Tomahawk Chop gives you visceral reactions. Get the shakes. Yeah. Sweat. So, like Albert Brooks in broadcast news. So, uh, like Albert Brooks and broadcast news. So, uh, I go, we got to go through the Braves organization. She goes, it's down there at their stadium. I'm like, all right, whatever.

And I'm thinking I'm going to hate all these people. And we show, you start to call and say, well, meet us here. And instead of, they were meet us here. They were the nicest people. They are the classiest, nicest people in the world. They did everything just right. They made it easy, were really friendly, weren't cloying too much. They just said, Jim, go here, have a nice time, and meet this guy, and great seats. I was so disappointed. Yeah, it's almost like you wish you had a god.

So are you pirates and then Steelers, Penguins? Are pirates first or is it everybody? It's everybody, but it kind of romantically has to be always be the pirates just because that's how it all started with me.

You must have had a chance to buy in, right? Be a minority owner, some of that stuff? That's a whole other conversation I was a little kid. So you must have had a chance to buy in, right? And be a minority owner, some of that stuff? That's a whole other conversation I'd like to have with you. No, I never had that. Never had that chance. Like a token.

They never asked you? No. Really? That's such a mistake. Yeah. You could have been like the face of the franchise. Here's the,

well, yeah. That wouldn't be so good. Maybe that's not good for you. Yeah, yeah. But wouldn't be so good. Maybe that's not good for you. Yeah, yeah. But I always said, if that ever happened, I would quit everything for a year. So I ain't doing anything but that. Only that. Only that.

24-7. That's all I want to do. But I got to have some kind of say. Right. Can't be like, hey, show us up in there. You could have like that A-Rod somehow is involved with the Timberwolves ownership I don't think

he put up a ton of money but he's in there and he's like the face of it I don't know why that couldn't happen for you do you think they call him and say hey there's this kid at the you know Florida State International Ag Palace College of Agriculture.

What do you think? Or do you think, I don't know, I'm just going to show up for the dinner. But if you did it, wouldn't you want to go, ah, man, I want to go to the Dominican Republic. I want to find something. Wouldn't you? Well, from what I know about this stuff,

you don't really want to be, they call it the minority owner. You don't want to find something. Wouldn't you? Well, from what I know about this stuff, you don't really want to be, they call it the minority owner. You don't want to be the minority owner unless you have some sort of pull. And either that pull can be, they structured it so that you have like real say or the owner that has the say is somebody that you're really tight with.

Otherwise, you just basically bought the most expensive season tickets of all time. Right, right. Exactly. That's the trick. I was with Phil Lind. This guy, Phil Lind, the Toronto Blue Jays.

Yeah. He's a great guy. Great guy. And a great story. Big fishing. Big Atlantic salmon fishing and trout fishing. But didn't...

He was talking to him about how all that works and what he thinks they're worth, et cetera, et cetera. Well, and it's a bunch of rich guys who are all used to being in charge on their own of things. Now they have to deal with all these other rich guys. I thought the Pirates had some ownership stuff, though, over the years. I don't know. It feels like you could have some opportunities.

I still think you could do it. I still think there's time. This could be a full decade. It's just a business where you go, you're either in or you're out. I don't like that. I like the small market thing. I like when teams do it.

But you're good for a year, right? You maybe get two seasons out of that. Then you got to restructure and start. So at some point, somebody's got to pay somebody. You got to say, how much? Okay. And then you got to restructure and start. So at some point, somebody's got to pay somebody. You got to say, how much? Okay. And then you got to pay that pitcher or that catcher or whoever. You just got to pay somebody.

Tampa's figured out the best. They just over and over again, they're stockpiling, stockpiling. And then the perfect time to trade the guy, like Blake Snell last year. It's like, Blake, thanks for everything. We'll see you later. We're sending you off for more young guys that we're going to trade the guy. They always, like Blake Snell last year. It's like, Blake, thanks for everything. We'll see you later. We're sending you off for more young guys

that we're going to trade five years from now. Are you following the Steelers or no? The Roethlisberger thing's rough. This is why your people wanted this to run

a week from now. And I was like, no, it's got to be, we got to run it on Tuesday's pod and I got to get Keaton's thoughts on the Steelers. This Roethlisberger thing, great career, two Superbowls,

but this is now, this is now rough to watch. It's rough. It's painful. It's painful. I couldn't even watch Sunday. I don't know why everybody was talking about like that, that, Oh, this could be, I went to Aaron Rodgers and it's a good team. I mean, I don't see how you think this, anything's going to, I couldn't watch, literally couldn't watch. I couldn't take it. I was, I also't see how you think this, anything's going to, I couldn't watch, literally couldn't watch. I couldn't take it. I was,

I also had to be on an airplane at a certain point, but I thought, I kind of don't want to, my brothers are texting me constantly, you know, talking about specifics.

I'm going, I don't even know what you're talking about. I can't talk about it. It's, you know, it's too bad. It's such a great organization.

Tomlin's great. You know, I think that's why people are optimistic because Tomlin's been such a great coach. Every time it seems like it's over or they've hit up,

and then all of a sudden they'll rally and they'll upset somebody because of him. But Roethlisberger now, he can't move. He's a statue. Yeah, I don't quite understand that whole thing. We could talk privately about what that's all about. I don't get it. I don't quite understand that whole thing. We could talk privately about what that's all about.

I don't get it. I mean... I think it's loyalty to all the stuff he's done to the franchise. It's 100% loyalty, which is really admirable and good. And in fairness, remember at the beginning, he hit a whole lot

of the ball. He got hit a lot harder just because he's big doesn't mean he hasn't been beat up. But there's a lot that I don't understand. I just don't get it. Well, he's almost like a tight end

where he was so big and strong he was just taking these hits where he'd have these two guys dragging him 15 times a game. And he was so strong, he could fend them off. But at some point, the hits start adding up. You know, you're like a car. Yeah, it has to. Exactly.

But I mean, I don't get the whole what the whole mentality is, you know, the organization. Not just about him. I'm not sure what the thinking is. I worry. I'm saying this is is. I worry about these young guys who came and it's a storied franchise. I worry they're going, wait a minute.

What are we doing? We thought there was a thing here. But there's some good teams now. There's some really good teams. You moved to LA right as they were in the Superbowl run.

Yeah. They were like four and five. Yeah. When I was growing up, it was Steelers, Cowboys. That's it. That's yours to win the,

who won the Superbowl every year. And then I was in Boston and all the kids were like the kids that weren't the Patriot fans were Steelers or Cowboys. Cause they're front runners. And it was like, Oh, I know I don't like that person. And they had all these front runner fans all spread around the country. It was like, oh, I know I don't like that person.

And they had all these front runner fans all spread around the country, the Steelers or Dallas. But then the real Pittsburgh fans, you know, you always know, you can tell. You don't have the accent, though. No, no. You know, you know, I never, oddly, I never really had one. I don't know. I mean, that's probably the truth. Maybe when I was young, young, I had a little bit of one.

I never consciously said, I don't know. I mean, that's probably the truth. Maybe when I was young, young, I had a little bit of one. I never consciously said, I'm going to lose that accent. I just don't know what happened there. But, you know, accents and dialogues, they're just dialects. They're disappearing. Like, even in Boston, you know, and as you know, you know, Boston can change from, you know, a few blocks away. You can sound different. Like, you know, in this movie, Worth, you know, Ken Feinberg from Brockton, you, you can sound different. In this movie, Worth,

Ken Feinberg's from Brockton. Oh, nice. He doesn't speak like Robbie Robinson does. In fact, Robbie, the guy from Spotlight, I played, sometimes Robbie doesn't even have an accent. And he told me, he said, it depends on where I am.

If I walk in and I'm interviewing some guy and he's a fireman down in Revere or something like that, then I talk like this. Not an affectation. We just can't help it. You know, Spotlight is one of the... But a lot of cities, they don't have them if you notice anymore.

Because of all the transplants. Yeah. But if you go to the deeper parts of the city, the extended, the suburbs and the extended stuff, that's it. I mean, there's a million movies we could have talked about. Spotlight, I think, is one of the best movies in the past 10 years. Thanks. I know you're obviously proud of that one.

Listen, as a 40-year fan of yours, I'm so glad you're still cranking and doing good content. You had 40 years of movies we could have talked about. That's why I wanted to concentrate on one decade. But I know you'll come back at some point.

This was fun. You had a good time. Yes. After I do 40 more. I'm glad you're still doing good work, though. It's really been fun to watch. So you have Dope Sick.

That's on Hulu. Right? And then Worth is already on Netflix. Yeah. So there you go. All right, it was good to see you. I'm glad we finally did this. Thanks.

All right. All right, this podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. Don't forget about the Prestige TV podcast, where on Wednesday night, I will be breaking down a Succession Hall of Fame episode with Joanna Robinson. Stay tuned for that back on this feed on Thursday. And also don't forget about the rewatchables

we put up on Monday night. We did the Redeparted, me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey. So if you missed that, what a week. Such a great Boston Sports Week and 15th anniversary of the Departed. A lot of Boston stuff this week. Anyway, I'll see you in this feed on Thursday. Go Red Sox.