The Bill Simmons Podcast - Remembering Dirk Nowitzki's Incredible Career With Marc Stein | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: April 9, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons recaps his weekend at NXT and 'WrestleMania 35' in New York with his son Ben (2:55). Then, Bill is joined by Marc Stein of The New York Times to discuss Dirk Nowitzki's career as one of the best power forwards to ever play the game (11:35). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Start watching across nearly any of your devices. That is D-A-Z-N DAZN. Oh, yeah. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com. The world's greatest website. Has a lot of good stuff this week. We are

owning Game of Thrones. Kyle, do we own Game of Thrones or is HBO? I think HBO owns it. It feels like we own it this week. It's like a co-partnership though, right? It feels like we co-own it this week with them. We have like the all-time Game of Thrones meme bracket right now.

You can listen to Binge Mode, get you ready for the season. You can watch Mallory and Jason's top 25 Game of Thrones moments ever if it doesn't kill them finishing the taping schedule. So much going on. Zach Cram's written some incredible stuff.

I'm really proud of the Game of Thrones content. We also have a video we premiered today. Subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash ringer. We did a video today that we put up. An idea from Ryan Rosillo, actually. It was the NBA support group. It was a bunch of people in a support group talking about NBA players

that they just haven't been able to give up on yet. And it includes Mark Titus with a Boston accent. So there you go. Check that out. Wanted to give a shout out to our old friend, Amos Barshad from our Grantland days. He just put out a new book that came out today called No One Man Should Have All That Power, How Rasputins Manipulate the World. It is out today. I flipped through a couple chapters.

I'm not done with it yet. It's really good. He was always one of my favorite Grandland feature writers that we had. We actually had him early and kind of nudged him up. And he became this really fabulous feature writer and this book's really good. Check that out. It is called No One Man Should Have All That Power, How Rasputins Manipulate the World.

Coming up, we're going to talk to Mark Stein about Dirk Nowitzki. But first, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Mark Stein coming up in a second. I haven't been on a podcast in a few days here. I actually went back east with my family and went to Boston, a couple of days there, then took my son to a couple of wrestling events, saw a couple of plays. I feel very cultured. I went to To Kill a Mockingbird on Saturday and then WrestleMania

on Sunday, which are two of the greatest plays of our modern era. My son and I went to NXT on Friday in Brooklyn and it was spectacular. I got to say, I went to NXT on Friday in Brooklyn, and it was spectacular. I got to say, I really like NXT. The first and last matches were out of control. The crowd was awesome. We had a great time. We had Momofuku chicken, Kyle. Momofuku chicken.

They have a station. In the event? Yeah. Or you were at the Garden? Yeah. No, not at the Garden, at Barcl yeah yeah yeah i've heard no not at the garden at barclays so i got a chicken sandwich i got chicken tanners that was great um the event was great my son was super happy and i realized when i take my son to these wrestling events

it's the same thing you know when you you don't have a dog yet but like if i took my if i took willie my dog to the dog park yeah and he's around all these other dogs and he's just so excited he's like hey other dogs whoa i'm gonna sniff that dog's asshole whoa hey there's a poop and it's just like the dogs are around all the other idiotic dogs and just like having a dog frenzy and that's what my son was like uh at these wrestling events It's like all his people. It's like, oh, you're going to chain Adam Cole baby too. Hey. No filters.

How was his sentiment towards the wrestlers he wanted to lose? Were you surprised at the stuff that came out? Yeah, he got mad a couple of times. He more roots for people than against. Yeah, he's not a lot of kill them going on. No. He was really into this guy, Walter on NXT He more roots for people than against. Yeah, he's not a lot of kill them going on. No. It's more like.

He was really into this guy, Walter, on NXT, who does these really hard chest slaps. Okay. He's really into them. And unfortunately, he went back to the hotel room that night and kept trying to chest slap me. And I finally had to lay the smack down. We had a hotel room hardcore match. So NXT was great.

And then we went to WrestleMania on Sunday, which my son did the most legendary thing I've ever seen him do in my life. We left the hotel at three. We got home at 1.30 because the show was very long. And during that entire time, he did not eat food or pee, which for an 11-year-old boy not to pee for 10 and a half hours or eat. He started to lose a little steam in the last hour. But again, he was around his people. He was at his dog park.

There were all these assholes to smell and all these poops to smell and all these weird bones to eat. And he was just in heaven. We had very good seats. We were right behind the announcer's table. And he was just locked in. The event was too long. I think even the WWE would admit that. It was five locked in. The event was too long. I think even the WWE would admit that.

It was five and a half hours, the actual card. I don't feel like any crowd, I don't care what the crowd is for and what's happening, has more than four hours in it. Even if you had like a quintuple basketball, quintuple overtime in basketball. Yeah. In the NBA. People are leaving at that point. Game seven, and it was Cantupo overtime.

I think the crowd would be tired by like the fifth overtime. Or if you had, I've been to some amazing baseball games, and it gets, even around the 12th, 13th inning, you just get punchy. Yeah. So the crowd was punchy, and we hit that last hour, and everybody's waiting for the big three-way main event with the, with the three ladies who are awesome. And there were a couple other matches in between.

You could just feel the energy kind of dies 80,000 people. But still cool. WrestleMania is, there's just nothing like it where you have 80,000 people crammed into a football stadium, just going bonkers for stuff and people taking great. I think my favorite match was probably the Miz versus Shane McMahon, just because you knew it was leading to Shane McMahon

almost falling to his death. And that's exactly what happened. How high do you think he fell? It was like 20 feet. Yeah, it was crazy. This guy's nuts. Kofi Kingston. Also, this was themania where all the favorites

kind of got their due nice kofi kingston won seth rollin won seth rollins won becky lynch won and uh and my son was really into it but um you know my son's 11 i don't know how many more years i have before he doesn't want to hang out with me anymore but it's it reminded me that every once in a while i have to go somewhere with him where we have trapped. He's a very good traveler. My kid. That's awesome.

By the way, just he's packed. He's ready to go. It's the opposite of my daughter. So I think what I realized is this summer, I think I'm going to take him to, I'm going to try to do like eight ballparks in seven days and see if we can pull that off because I really think he's,

he's a good traveler. So anyway, thanks to WWE. Thanks to, thanks to WWE. Thanks to God for giving me a son because I love having a daughter, but it's also cool having a son. The two paths are totally different. The other thing we did,

we saw To Kill a Mockingbird on Saturday night. And I'm not a huge play guy, and this was pretty great. The production of it and the acting. And I'm always like so impressed. I go to plays that I spend more time looking at how they do the sets when the sets change. I'm always like amazed by, oh, it's now we're in a courtroom. Wait, we're outside.

Like how they do that so seamlessly combined with all these actors who are just giving the same performance that they've given seven nights in a week. And I, all of it is, is, uh, really, really kind of incredible. And I could see how people get into the whole play thing. Um, it's for me, like plays are sports. Like I love going to basketball games and that's my version of when people love going to Broadway, but I recommend that when I had a good time. My wife and daughter also went to Mean Girls the night before. That's a play? Yeah.

Oh man. And they love that. That sounds incredible. And then the other highlight was on Saturday, Jacoby has his three kids and he's just, it's like a dad extravaganza. Oh, I saw this picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just interrupted his dad time. He was at some sports bar with his three kids

just holding on for dear life. And we showed up, it was like throwing him a life raft. Yeah, don't have three kids under the age of five is a lesson I learned over and over again from my friends. I'm glad I stopped it too. But he made it, everyone got home safely. Anyway, we have a lot of stuff to talk about this week we are going to do the big nba award slash playoff preview with rossillo on thursday

and i have no idea how long that podcast is going to be but the over under is two hours and one minute i'll clear some time you go over for that i'd say two over yeah yeah i could feel like two and a half yeah it's going to be a very long podcast. We have a lot to say. I have not decided on MVP yet. I have not decided on all NBA. I will decide Wednesday night late and then hash all that stuff out. We also have the rewatchables is coming up.

I think we're taping it Wednesday. Major League. And we'll put that up on Friday. And it's me and Rumbert Brown. My old Grantland teammate. He's been waiting his whole life for this podcast. So we're going to do that. We're going to talk to Mark Stein right now. First,

did you know Hulu has live sports? Watch your favorite teams in the biggest games all season with no cable or satellite subscription required. Get over 60 live and on-demand channels, tons of shows and movies, and watch on the go on your favorite devices. With Hulu, live TV plan required. Restrictions apply.

Learn more at hulu.com. I'm not going to talk about the Red Sox. I'm not going to panic. You're not going to make me panic. We got started out with a really bad schedule, and I think they're going to regroup. And you're not going to make me nervous about it. You're just not.

We have like a $250 million payroll. We're going to be fine. Don't make me nervous. You can send all your tweets. I don't care. They're bouncing right off me. So there you go. And then college last night.

Listen to One Shining Podcast if you want to hear. If you want to hear two stressed voices. Two people that actually care about college basketball. You can hear it in their voices. It's time for them to come back. You can hear it. It's actually hilarious. Just listen to the first five minutes.

Virginia was running the four corners offense, basically, and won the title. Yeah. They just, they kill time for 23 seconds and then somehow get a half decent shot. I don't know how they did it. I watched less March Madness than I've ever watched in my life this year.

I have no regrets. I don't know how they did it. I watched less March Madness than I've ever watched in my life this year. I have no regrets. I don't feel like I missed much. It seemed like I missed a lot of bad basketball and some exciting endings. So I have no regrets. All right. Here's Mark Stein. All right. We're taping this at 1015 Pacific time on Tuesday. There's a big Champions League match today. This man's team is playing. I can't believe he's even focused to do an interview. The first podcast guest I ever had in my whole life that was at ESPN. We no longer work there.

He's at the New York Times. I'm at the Ringer. Mark Stein, how are you? I'm an emotional wreck on the Ringer podcast network. A lot of stuff going on for you. All right. Let's start. I don't want to start with the champions league.

I think people want to hear about the last 36 hours of Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas. You were there the whole time you watched him grow up. You nursed him like a little puppy into a big alpha dog. What are you saddest about this week? I get pretty emotional. I'm a sports nostalgic sap, so I get emotional at these things. Like, even when he and Wade did the Jersey swap,

that made me emotional. I was like, these guys are death rivals. Why is this? Why is this emotional? Because the weird thing is you can't say that it's bad. It's year 21. I mean,

this, this has lasted for longer than anyone has had any reason to expect. I mean, this guy has completely, you know, he invited me into his life to cover him from the closest range that probably any writer has ever got to do. And, you know, it's gone on for more than two decades. How can you be bad? But I don't know. Like I said, I'm just pretty... It doesn't take much, I guess, to get the tears going.

So honestly, all season long, my joke has been, I just don't want to end up on Deadspin with a picture of me crying on press row. That would not be... That was my goal for the season, but tonight, I think everybody's going to be weepy.

I just can't believe how long it's been. I was thinking about when they drafted him, and I did a draft diary that year for the website that I had that barely anyone read that was like 13 months old. And the Celtics had the 10th pick. And my dad and I really wanted them to take this German guy really only because they were comparing him to Larry Bird. We saw these grainy videos of him. That was it. We knew he was a good shooter. It wasn't like it is now where we

could have gone and watched a hundred games of him in Germany and really studied him. We knew he was a good shooter. It wasn't like it is now where we could have gone and watched a hundred games of him in Germany and really studied him. We were really going on nothing. And we really wanted them to take him. And then all of a sudden he falls, Pierce falls. It becomes conceivable that they're definitely going to get one or the other.

Dallas ends up with Dirk with one of the great trades of the last 25 years. just even him being like a multi-time all-star in 1998 felt like it would have been a huge win, right? We had no history with foreign dudes. For him to be, I think he's one of the best 16, 17 players of all time. For that to happen was inconceivable in 1998. When did you start to think it was actually potentially maybe going to get there? Yeah, because people always ask me, did you believe?

And I'm like, I didn't believe this. Nobody believed this. The Nelsons didn't see this. Now, I did think he was going to be an all-star. When I saw him play live in germany remember they they drafted him and then it's the lockout and then it's september of 98 and i'm on my annual go watch city trip in england and i convinced the morning news send me to germany it's like going from dallas to new york so i got to watch him play right two league games there and i was like this dude is like i've never seen

a seven footer shoot like this you know i'm i'm a braves fan so bob mcadoo was the you know he was the greatest and bob mcadoo had range and he was considered you know the best face-up big man probably before jerk but he didn't extend out to that kind of range. Obviously, there was no three-point line for the bulk of his career. I'm sure he would have been great at it if he made the adjustment, but you didn't think you thought of McAdoo as a little bit closer in. I mean, Dirk had this range that we had never seen before. So I thought, OK, he'll learn all the physicality stuff.

But if you shoot like that, you're going to be something. So I thought all-star. He's a top 20 player. Nobody knew that. Yeah, so you mentioned the lockout. We didn't get to see him in Boston that first year. That's why I was going to all the games back then. It was a 50-game season, so the West and the East really didn't play that much. Then the next year, he came in, and he was kind of rounding into Dirk form at that point.

And I actually looked it up as you were just talking because I remember he was awesome. And so he was 10 for 15 with 26 points in his first game in the Garden. But Pierce had a good game too. But I remember leaving that game and being like, oh man, I don't know what that is, but that's something. And like you, I revered McAdoo on those Buffalo teams

because the Celtics had some great series with them. And then ironically, the Celtics traded for him and he was terrible. I don't know what happened to him in the late 70s. But McAdoo was this 6'10 center who his game was 20 feet from the basket. He wasn't really a center, but that's where they played him, and it all kind of worked. And that's what we thought Dirk was going to be for, I don't know,

the first couple years of his career. When did they realize that you actually needed to play him with the center? Well, they started him as a small forward. I mean, that's how messed up it was because in those days, you know, the prototypical four was Karl Malone. He was the best four man in the league. And, you know, Dirk had no chance of physically matching up with him. And so they actually started him as a small forward until they finally realized, no, he's got to be a four.

We're going to let him play his way of four. And it was just, but you've got to become a defensive rebounder. We know you're not even going to be in position to be an offensive rebounder. We know you're not going to be a rim protector, but you have to be a defensive rebounder. And he really worked on that. And, you know, I think it was just the last game or two, he became, what is it, five guys who have 10,000 defensive rebounds

in their career. So his career average has slipped under eight for rebounding because the last few years, obviously, his minutes have gone down. But he became, in his prime, a very serviceable defensive rebounder. I think that was big for him. But, I mean, the Celtics thing is amazing because Dirk has the great hoop-summit game. If that would have happened now,

he would have gone from unknown to number one pick in about two seconds. The Babs had already decided they wanted to take him. They were trying to hide him. They were trying to convince Dirk to do no workout. Your guy, Patino, still got the workout. He went to Rome. He met Dirk. He worked him out.

The Celtics told Dirk, if you get to 10, we are taking you 10. So, I mean, he was there. I mean, Pierce Flipping obviously made that a crazy draft for both teams. It's one of the great drafts of all time for this reason. It's this era of the NBA where nobody really knew anything yet. The GMs were terrible. Nobody knew how to build a team. The fans had very limited information.

It was really the embryonic stages of the internet. Even that draft diary I wrote for my old website, you could only read it if you had an AOL address because my site was AOL only. So if you were at work, you couldn't read it. I would have had to mail it to you. And you have this draft where Ola Wakandi goes first. He's 24 years old. It's a terrible pick as it's happening. It's like, why is this happening? Why are you taking a 24-year-old with the first pick with all these other guys? And Mike Bibby went second and Pierce started

dropping. And my dad and I are going nuts. We're like, does this guy, does he have a drug problem? What's going on? But there's no information. Now, if this was happening in 2019, there's so many different ways to react in real time and listen to what other people are thinking. But this is just me and my dad in his living room, not understanding what's going on. And you look at that draft jameson goes fourth carter goes fifth dallas takes robert trailer sixth and then keeps their fingers crossed that dirk's going to be there at nine so they can flip picks with milwaukee do we did they know for sure he was going to be there at nine or were they just hoping they they say they knew for sure, but again, that's where... Q's went eight. Who went seven? I'm forgetting.

Was it LaFrance that went seven? No, it was White Chocolate went seven. So the top 10 were Oluwakandi, Mike Bibby to Vancouver, Rafe LaFrance to Denver, Toronto and Golden State take Jamison and Carter, and then foot picks. Trailer goes sixth, which was crazy when that happened. That was like, I still can't believe that happened.

RIP Robert Traylor. Jason Williams goes seventh. Larry Hughes goes eighth and was very open about how he was, he knew he wasn't ready for the NBA, but needed to make money for his family because he had a sick brother. And all of a sudden Nowitzki and Pierce are there at 9 and 10, and they end up being the best guys in the draft. This is just something that will never happen again

because we have too much intelligence now. As you said, Nowitzki in that hoop summit, he'd go first. It would almost be like how Luka Doncic who went third. He should have got higher than third, but there's just no way somebody like Doncic would ever go lower than

three. And Dirk was clearly at least on that level of a talent. The whole thing's nuts to me. He also, my memory, my memory sucks because I'm getting older. I'm totally forgetting things. I'm confusing things.

I don't know what, what's happening. But if I remember right after hoop summit, I, I, I think Jackie McMullen was an SI at the time. And I seem to remember her quoting Larry Bird saying how great Dirk was after the Hoop Summit. And that still didn't get him higher than number nine.

That performance alone should have vaulted him to three at the worst. I mean, how he didn't go higher than nine is insane. And we didn't... Look, you're talking early 2000s. I think that was the first year I had the league pass was Dirk's third year. But basketball wasn't on like it is now and it wasn't as available

and there weren't as many opinions out there. And with Dirk, we didn't know. We hoped. But I remember that 2001 season, which was his third season, that was kind of his breakout. There really might be something here. He was 21-9 that year, but you could kind of feel it heading a certain way. And they had that great first round series against Malone and Stockton. And it was really like old guard, old school, MJ era NBA against whatever the league was becoming. And they end up winning.

And what was that last game? It was like a one point win in the game five. And it just felt like the NBA had arrived. This is my 26th year. I still don't know if I will see anything that shocks me as much as Dallas coming back from 17 down in the fourth quarter at Utah in a deciding game. Yeah.

I know Malone and Stockton were on the downside at that point. I get it. But you did not win road games in Utah in those days. And you certainly did not win a deciding series road game when you had no playoff experience. I mean, that was so unexpected that that Mavs team pulled that series out. I, you know, that was, that was, I mean, that's, that's something nobody, it doesn't even crack Dirk's top 20 anymore, but it does on my list because I was there and I still almost don't believe it. 84 to 83. Dirk went three for 11, but 10 for 10 from the line. Yeah.

So, and that was a good year for the NBA because they were coming off that lockout. The next year was, you know, that 99 season was just an abomination. The 2000 was a little more fun. Shaq and Kobe, that dynasty started, but 01 was a really good season because that was Iverson's MVP. That was Vince Carter really kind of ascended. T-Mac was turning into something. You had Dallas, the Nash-Dirk thing, that was really turning into something. Paul Pierce in Boston. And it was just around the league. It felt like we were finally coming out of that MJ hangover.

I still, I remember the next big thing that happened with Dirk was when he got hurt in that playoff series. I can't remember, what was it, 0-2? 0-3. 0-3. And there was a big controversy about whether he should have you know strapped it on and played and you know is that the whole euro thing came up and well the thing is though that's really that really was what really started to unravel the cube and don nelson relationship it's funny we were on the i went with the maps miami just a

couple weeks ago when when dirirk and Wade had the the reverse fixture as we would say in the footy world and and the Mavs made their last appearance in Miami on the floor before the game Cuban was still talking about 2003 and how how Don Nelson wouldn't let Dirk play in that game you know that it was really Don Nelson's call. Oh, so that wasn't Cuban's call? No, well, the doctor, it depends on who you believe. Cuban will tell you that the doctor cleared Dirk and Don Nelson wouldn't let him play in the game. And, you know, that is the prevailing version

that goes around. And to this day, if you ask Dirk, if you have played in that game, he'll say, I shouldn't have. I wasn't ready. Maybe a game seven, but I wasn't ready. And of course, the Mavs are winning that game six, and Kerr and Steven Jackson go nuts in the fourth quarter, and the Mavs lose with what really was one of their best teams because that was the year they had Van Exel off the bench, and he really gave them something they didn't have before.

Yeah, 0-3 Mavs, that's one of the asterisk teams from this century where if you do that season 10 times, I think they win the title a couple of those times. Like if you're just a computer simulating, they beat the Blazers in round one in seven. They beat a really good Sacramento team. That was really the last stand for C-Web. They beat them Blazers in round one in seven. They beat a really good Sacramento team. That was really the last stand for C-Web. They beat them in seven.

And then San Antonio, as you said, the Steve Kerr game. And they're in Dallas at that point, game six in Dallas. And that game is one of the more fun YouTube clips to watch because Dallas is up by like 15, 16 at some point and Kirk comes in off the bench like a sports movie and just starts making threes. Steven Jackson got really hot in that game too, but that 03 Spurs team is still one of the more inexplicable

how did they win the title teams. So you have that, you have the 03 Mavs. The next year they lose, Nash leaves and what Cuban now admits is a huge mistake. Then everything leads to 06. Really, the biggest officiating

crisis series we've ever had where if anything, Wade, it was bad for him legacy-wise because he was so incredible in that series, but the officials were the only thing anyone remembers. Did you think Mark Cuban was going to get suspended for life

after that series? The bigger question was was he going to sell the team and ultimately he couldn't bring himself to do that but he was so out of it and so despondent after that that he was certainly behind the scenes threatening it and I'm sure if you have on he'll say he was closer to it than we ever knew now just having

observed him for the last 20 years i can't imagine him being able to survive one second without the mavs in his life so i never really believed it but But, look, the worst part of all that for Nowitzki was, I mean, he's getting all these bouquets now, and everyone loves him, and he's a universally loved player. He is like, he hates when I make this reference, because I've told him, and he's a tennis guy, and you know your tennis from the 80s. He's like Martina Navratilova late in his career. Everybody loves him. Everybody roots for him. He's the tennis guy and you, you, you know, your tennis from the eighties, he's like Martina Navratilova late in his career. Like everybody loves him.

Everybody roots for him. He's the old guy, but it wasn't like that for a decade for a decade. It was your soft. You can't get it done. You're European. You'll never be able to lead a team. And, and, you know, he, he knows that that that's what everyone was saying. And, you know, I'm sure that was not fun to live with for a decade. Yeah. I remember when Shaq became available in 2004 and it came out that Cuban had turned down

the chance to get Shaq with Nowitzki in the trade. I wrote a whole piece at the time like, this is crazy. Whoever gets Shaq is going to win a title over the next three years. He will be pissed off. He's got two to three great years left. And the chance to win a title should trump anything else.

I didn't think Dirk's ceiling was as high as it was. And after the 07 and the round one loss to the Warriors, which, you know, and he wins the MVP and they had already lost. Like that whole thing was horrible. But from that point on, it just really felt like you could kind of guess where his career was going, where he was going to be like, oh, yeah, he was great, but, and there was always going to be that comma, but, dot, dot, dot, and people were going to say he was soft.

If he didn't win at 11, is he still a Mav? there was always going to be that comma, but dot, dot, dot. And people are going to say, you know, if, if he didn't win at 11, does he, if he's still a mouse, does he leave to go get the title somewhere else? Right. I mean, I think that's a very fair question and an obvious question, but I think what also made his story so unique.

And I remember, I mean, I remember you writing about this when we were, when we were teammates back in bed. Oh, sick. Yeah. It seemed when they beat

san antonio in game seven yeah it's probably the best single game i've ever had the privilege of being at in person when he did that you thought okay now he's got he he's he's at the summit he just beat tim duncan and san antonio on their floor in a game seven. But then he backslid the way the finals unfolded in 06, and then obviously the first round lost in 07. So it was like he conquered this huge obstacle, but then regressed. And he didn't just, like, he would have thought after beating San Antonio that he would have just kept going up and win a championship.

And so it's like he had to do it again. That's what made it, I think, unusual. Yeah, I remember during the 06 playoffs, I wrote that. That was when I wrote the 42 Club column about if you add up points, rebounds, and assists for somebody in the playoffs, and they played like at least 12 games, and the average is over 42,

that means something substantial is happening. And he just like laid the smack down for three weeks in a way that we had really not seen a forward do, I'm going to say like since Barkley in the 92, 93 range where just like points, rebounds, unstoppable, inside, outside, everything. And at some point it really did feel like it was his year. And that you mentioned that game seven against the Spurs. That's like one of the great lost games of the century. You know, they, Manu

with the all time dumb foul, which he regretted even as he was fouling. I mean, he didn't mean to. Dirk gets the three, gets this incredible clutch three-point play to send the game into OT and comes through. And it really seemed at that point, wow, this guy's going to be an all-timer. And then two years later, we're wondering what happened to him. And it really seemed like he kind of hit rock bottom mentally.

He was going through some stuff personally too. He was in a weird relationship that was going south. And what was that one year he went hiking all summer? What did he do that summer? No, this was after 07. So after he wins MVP, but they lose to the We Believe Warriors, he and Holger Gespinder, his longtime shooting coach, they went to the Australian Outback.

I mean, they spent like a month just completely away from civilization. And, you know, he started to bounce back from it after that because, you know, 09, what you're referencing, when he had all his personal trouble and his, you know, his personal life all out in the open. Go look at his stats from the 09 series against denver he was incredible in the middle of all that i think he averaged 35 and 12 and shot like 58 percent from the field something like that crazy numbers in that denver state because the mavs had a horrible team it was the early days of the carlisle era and the team was just awful and

they hadn't figured out how to use kid yet. They didn't have the right role. You know, the 11 team had all the hungry role players and it just all fit perfectly. You know, in, in oh nine, it was close to that.

It's, it's one of the best final stories we've ever had. Every, and this happens sometimes in the playoffs, everything lined up for them. You know, you had, you had that Lakers team that just imploded at the perfect time. They're catching Miami during month seven of this stretch

or month eight, where they're just the biggest villains the league has had since the bad boys Pistons. Everybody's rooting against them. And then, you know, the game two the famous uh with they're making fun of uh what did wade hit the three in front of the dallas bench and gave them shit and they have this great comeback that game and then it was just a force of will after that where um i went to all three of those games. The crowd definitely broke Miami a little in game four and game five. And, uh, and it was just so cool to see somebody alter his own destiny. And so it

doesn't happen that often in sports where you, you look at just like a two week stretch and you go, wow, this goes differently. We're remembering this guy in a completely different way. And it's one of the unfair things about legacies with sports, but you know, if Dirk never wins the title, he's a top 25 guy. He's in that range with like Barkley and Karl Malone. And we say, yeah, great guy, but dot, dot, dot. And then he wins a title and that's it. He's one of the best 15 guys ever. He's in the conversation for best foreign player ever with Hakeem. I would still give a slight edge to Hakeem. He's one of the greatest forwards of all time. I would definitely probably have him LeBron, Bird.

I guess he's third, unless you count Havoc as a forward. My position is always this. I mean, Duncan, the Spurs and Duncan, that was the Mavs' forever rival throughout his career. Duncan won five championships. You can't compare five to one. With Duncan a forward, though? Dirk changed his position.

That is his bigger legacy. He won the championship, and that puts him in the top 20. But how many guys changed their position? Yeah. And that's, you know, no slight to a team, but I think a team by virtue of having played college years and because of what Dirk means in the history of the game for just completely changing what we expect out of a four-man

and just opening up the game. I mean, I think those are just massive, massive achievements. So if Duncan counts as a forward, I have LeBron, Bird, and Duncan ahead of him. Yeah. And there's a Durant versus Dirk argument. I would say Durant's probably a tad higher because of one MVP, four second

place finishes, two finals MVPs. And so would Dirk. What is Durant? It's Dirk with crazy athleticism. And the what if with his career is if Nash doesn't leave. And what happens?

Maybe Nash needed to leave and what happens, you know, maybe Nash needed to leave. Maybe Nash needed the, the kind of fuck you edge. Maybe he needed the Phoenix sense training staff. I'm sure we've done this before on the pod. I'm sure we have to. They both needed to leave to go to. I think that is such a joke.

Nash left the year. They changed the hand check rule. We never got to see what Dirk and Nash would have been in the seven seconds or less era. I mean, the rules literally changed that offseason that Nash went to the Suns. And now Nash also was pissed. He was furious at the Mavs. He felt really dissed that the Suns offered him $66 million and the Mavs wouldn't go higher than $36 million over four. He changed his body. He just became, you know, that certainly was a factor too so it wasn't just all

the rules changes but I have to think Nash and Dirk win at least one and maybe two together. Yeah I would say the over-under is one and a half I obviously I think they would have been better off staying together. The only questions I have is

did Nash need to go to Phoenix to reach his full potential as a player, both from having that edge of having Dallas basically give up on him, especially when Mark Cuban, who's splurging on everybody, decides 60 million was too rich for his blood. And also, definitely the Phoenix training staff

was ahead of its time, some of the stuff they were doing. And they were really able to keep him in great shape for five, six years. I don't know if Dallas would have been able to do that. It's a, what is.

And look, you know, I am a huge Dan Tony disciple. I know he hasn't won. So he has a lot of critics and it's, you know, he'll be just like, if he doesn't win,

there will always be a segment of the basketball public that that says it was all a regular season mirage he's not this he's not that no i mean he's he's done it in phoenix he's done it with his houston team he's done it with different styles and nash benefited hugely from that nelly was nearing the end i don't think avery johnson who would have gotten that job, I don't know that the Mavs would have been this three-wheeling machine with Avery at the controls and Nash as his point guard. So there's no question. Yeah, that's fair. Tony was big for Nash. No question. I remember when Dirk, I did a podcast with Dirk at All Star. It was like 20 minutes the year after he won.

And the personality transformation was hilarious. I've never seen, you always hear that thing about getting the monkey off your back and wow, you're so much more relaxed now. But you literally could feel it and see him. He was just so happy. He was so relieved. That was one of the first times I remember thinking like about the effects that the media and the fans have on a player and how they think about their career and their legacy.

Cause it was tied into what was going on with LeBron and that 2011 season too. Even thinking about like my own column and like, wow, you know, I write stuff and that guy might read it, you know, it sounds stupid, but to see how like, how just at peace he was with everything was really eyeopening for me.

And unfortunately as a basketball fan, he was too at peace because he just basically wasted the decade on all these forgettable teams after that title. And I just wish he had been in the mix a little bit more from a playoff standpoint. You don't even think he really cared, right? I think he does care, but it's also just, you know, and it's, it's a, it's a criticism of him, I think. And, and a fair one, he, he, he never for my money meddled enough in team building and team building matters

yeah and he could have held cuban's feet to the fire a lot more forcefully than he did and it's just not his way he's just one of those guys that he's accepting of the card you give him and yeah i mean look these last eight years since the championship, I mean, I think they've been harder than the 10 getting there. Because at least in the 10 getting there, they're winning 50 games every year. They're relevant. He's developing his game. I mean, you know, there were a lot of heartbreaks in there.

But I mean, they were all, I mean, it's just been rough these last eight years, and now, you know, they've got Dodgerton for Zingas, and he's, unless he comes back for one more year, which obviously looks unlikely in the extreme, he's not going to get to partake in any of that, so. But it's just him.

It's just him. The big mistake, and it's funny because we also get, I mean, we're hypocrites, all of us, let's just him. The big mistake, and it's funny because we also get, I mean, we're hypocrites, all of us, let's face it. We get mad when athletes do this, and I take it personally when LeBron tries to trade his entire team

at the All-Star break and stuff like that. Nowitzki, if he had spoken up during that summer of 2011 when all of a sudden it became clear that they weren't going to or I guess it was actually December 2011, it was after the lockout, when they decided they were going to move away from Tyson Chandler

which was a terrible idea and didn't make sense at the time and Dallas was really feeling themselves, they had just won the title and they were like, no actually this is how we're going to do it we're smarter than the league, we're going to do it we're smarter than the league we're going to figure this out

but the reality is if they had brought back Tyson Chandler they could have had a chance to win that title that year remember because they lost to OKC in round one they got smoked OKC ended up making it like two years before anybody ever thought they were going to make the finals

or a year before. That was kind of open. They blew that team up for free agent positioning and that was 2011 and the Mavs are still waiting for their free agent slash and it's 2019. Which is why

they just gave up so much for Perzingis. They've learned too many times they don't do well in free agency for whatever reason. And so they've always been much better making the big swing trade. And they've had plenty of those that have blown up in their face with Rondo and Lamar Odom. But they pushed all the chips in for Perzingis. And if you follow their history, you understand why. Yeah, it was an indefensible title defense because they were bringing back most of the good players in that team and somebody who was still in his prime or very close to his

prime as a superstar. And I'm always of the belief, like you just never know with this stuff. And they got cute with Chandler. It turned out to be what, four years, 55 million. So that was a bummer. It's funny because they both put around a lot of successful pieces and spent a lot of money and did a lot of the right things you would need.

And they ended up winning a finals and make another finals trip. But at the same time, I do feel like the Mavs failed him in some ways too, with some, with some of the moves over the years, like Nash and Chandler, I think being the two biggest ones on the flip side,

I hated the Jason kid trade. I remember we argued about it on one of my first podcasts and, and they don't win the title without him. So I think like everything else, there's some, some, some ups and downs. Let's the title without him. So I think like everything else, there's some ups and downs. So let's take a quick break. No, the first couple of years of Kidd were rough, but like you just said,

I mean, he was so important on that title team. I mean, the D he played against Kobe and Durant, I mean, he's ridiculous. Let's take a quick break and then I want to ask you two more questions. A rectile dysfunction is like a check engine light for your body. It's often the first sign of something more serious going on like high blood pressure or heart condition, diabetes, and more. 52% of men will experience ED in their life. About 70% won't talk to a doctor about it.

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for a free visit to get started. Getroman.com slash bill. Back to Mark Stein. All right, so give me a story that you haven't given on another radio show or podcast yet. That you're going to give like 45 years from now when old man Stein is living in,

in England and Manchester and being wheeled into the games. And somebody is like, Hey, what was Dirk Nowitzki like? Man, you always hit me with a stumper that I'm not ready for. I think he was a little behind, never publicly, but behind the scenes

and I'm sure he did this with teammates. I think he was more of a trash talker and kind of cocky about himself, but just never for public consumption. Like he, I remember he used to have this thing where he would, you know, after the title, he would say things like an ant is an elephant on my shoulders.

He would say things like that in private. Never. He would never do it for a camera. Right. But I think he did. He did kind of build up a swag as the years went on. You know, he plays the humble dude on TV.

Right. But he was the shit-talking German. When you were talking about 06 and 07, I think my favorite part of those, I actually went back and when he broke 30K points, NBA TV put together a really nice

top 50 jerk plays of all time. When you watch him early on, even when he was starting to have success, he would dunk over guys, but the look on his face was almost like, wow, that was an accident. How did I just do that? I can't really believe that.

But by 06 and 07, that's when the Dirk face started. He would pull the mouthpiece out to do the sneer at the crowd. It's funny how he had to... He didn't start out that way. Luka has that for a minute once. He took years and years

and years to build that up. I guess it's a long way of saying he has more swag and cockiness probably than you would think. But it's all kept behind the scenes. And also a really I was thinking about his career and what I'm going to miss about it.

I thought he was a good playoff player, which it sounds weird to say, but I do think certain guys just translate better to the playoffs. And he was one of them. Like I was looking at his stats from 02 through 2012. He played 118 games. He played 41.4 minutes a game and was just 26 and 10 that entire time with 47, 39, 89 splits, shooting splits. So almost a 40% three-point shooter. Just really good for the most part when the bacon was on the line.

And I think the what if with his career for me, other than the Nash thing is if you just took 1999 Dirk Nowitzki and fast forwarded him to 2014 and then played out his career with the way we're playing basketball now, what does it look like? How many threes does he take? Are his moves the same? Does he have the same kind of inside-outside game? Or is he just purely basically a three-point free? Does he do basically what Harden's doing now in Houston? Does he tailor his game after that, or does it look exactly the same? What do you think?

And also, don't forget the years that Avery coached him, and he wouldn't let him shoot threes. I mean, and that was actually beneficial. He made Novitskiy cut way down on the threes and made him act a post-up game and focus more on the mid-range and score

in different ways. So by the time he got to 11, he was just, he was a surgeon. You watch him in the 11 playoffs, the Oklahoma City series especially. By then, he was a surgeon. He put it all together. He put the long range, the mid-range, and the post-up all together.

And he had to do it in steps. But I think you're right. I think his playoff numbers hold up well. He's a big arena player, too. Fantastic in Boston. new york always great at madison square garden i mean he he even all i mean this year his shooting has just abandoned him so many times and in the all-star game he throws in three bombs i mean he he didn't start out that way you you know right up top, you noted those numbers,

how bad it was at a deciding game in Utah. But, you know, he turned himself into a money play. And I love guys that get to the line in the playoffs more than they did in the regular season. You look at the first, that 12, uh, those for that 12 year stretch from basically, well, let's go. Oh, one through 2011 for the, just for the playoffs. He's at nine free throws a game. Like he was usually six or seven during the season. But as you said, he, he just completely perfected that inside outside. I'm going to do this, this one. Oh, they're giving me this. Oh,

they're going to put this guy on me. I'm posting him up. And then I don't know what year it was when he developed that shove the knee into somebody's balls, fade away, shot from the free throw line. What year was that? Like 09, 2010, all of a sudden it was. I mean, 11 is when people really took notice of it. That playoff run is really when it came to prominence and everybody, you know, he was doing it, you know, and,

and people were, were talking about it. It was unstoppable. Go back, go back, go back and watch the Monu play. Kerr is doing the game for TNT. And he even says he thought Dirk was going to pull up and shoot something

outside the fat, you know, Dirk taking it to the rim. He, you know know Kerr was doing the game and didn't expect it and that was no credit to Avery Avery made him change his mindset and and told him and tried to make him be more of an inside player and you know the biggest play in his career to that point he took it right to the rack I think the most unstoppable shot of my lifetime was Kareem Skyhook. And Kareem is now the most underrated megastar

we've ever had. I mean, he still should always be mentioned in any greatest conversation ever. And it never does. It's amazing that he never is mentioned. It's ludicrous. It's really ludicrous. And he should always be mentioned,

even though he's my least favorite basketball player of all time. And I love rooting against him. But that Nowitzki that I saw him on the foul line, once they figured out how to space him with shooters, which really took, you know, nine, 10 years. And it was really just one-on-one with whoever he had switched on. And you knew what he was going to do, and he could still do it. It's got to be in the top six or seven, I think, all-time for best moves. The holder wanted Dirk to learn the sky hook, and that's the one thing that he never figured out a way to add. But Kareem always says,

I don't know why more guys use it. How is the sky hook easy? I don't know how it's considered easy. It's not an easy shot. No, it's bizarre to watch. Somebody had a clip of when he broke the scoring record on Twitter the other day, and I was watching him shoot the sky hook over Eaton to break the thing. And even then I was like, how did he do that?

And nobody's ever come close to doing it, but how does somebody extend the ball to the absolute top of their reach and then just flick a flick, a shot that always goes in. I mean, Dirk messed around with it in off seasons and never got to the point that he felt comfortable shooting it in game. So if someone like him can't like, who's going to learn? Yeah.

Last thing. Well, I don't think we need to go over the whole Wade and Nowitzki leaving these two guys that meant so much to their cities and how that era might be heading toward an end just the way basketball is going

where guys become these employees for hire in these different cities and they move around and they're their own CEO and they're basically their own team. I do think as I watch this week with Wade and Nowitzki, though, it reminds people why it still matters to be, there is still some value to playing in the same city that you cannot make up if you're jumping around. Like LeBron, I don't know where LeBron's going to end his career,

but it's going to be in a city that he's not really attached to. Whereas like Nowitzki, Wade, I think Paul Pierce is another one that recently we've seen it. The connection that guys have when you watch the beginning, middle, and end of somebody's career is just deeper. And that's a really hard thing to explain to somebody like Anthony Davis when he's 25 and he wants to go to a bigger market. But he's going to bounce around and his career is just not, he's not going to belong to anybody. And I think Dirk belongs to Dallas. You said on the pod last

time, you thought he was more popular than a cowboy. Brian Curtis, Texas native. He wants to argue with you about that at some point. I know he wants, I know he wants to fight me on that. But again, you know, so, so which, which cowboy is it? As you know, again, I am, I am not going to sit here and pretend that I am an NFL expert of any, I mean, I should, I probably shouldn't even be

talking about the NFL, but I've lived here 21 years. I got here basically 15 months before they drafted in the business. The nineties Cowboys had so many stars. I don't think you can just say one Lords over the other Aikman Smith. I mean, how do you, how do you pick one from that, from that group? And then, okay, when we were kids, Roger Staubach and Tom Landry were massive. But to the kids of today, like, again, I've lived here for 21 years.

I do not want to insult the legend of Roger Staubach. But that was a long time ago. And, you know, Dirk, the 30,000 points is amazing. He's not going to stay number six in scoring forever. But 21 years with one team, that's three more than Reggie Miller. I don't think anyone is going to break that record. I think that record is the one that will stand for eternity. And I know it means a lot to him him he could have left a zillion times

yeah and then levitard really pissed me off he wrote such an amazing piece on wade and now i'm like i gotta write my third piece this week and i'm just gonna be looking at that going how am i gonna write something even close to this but read what levitard wrote about weight i mean the heat had success before he got there, but he made, I mean, he's bigger than Marino. He made them matter.

He's number one. He is an unquestioned number one in the Miami sports pantheon. So, and I do think those guys share that share. They share that. But unlike Dirk, he left, he went to,

uh, he went to Chicago. He went to Cleveland. I don't think they hold it against him now. No, they don't. They definitely don't. Last thing I wanted to mention. I remember 2009 range, you introduced me to Nash.

Or maybe 2008. I forget. It was somewhere in the late 2000s. And you were very protective of your relationship with Nash. You had spent all this time with Nash and Nowitzki in this old school journalism way where just putting in the time week after week and building real relationships with those guys

where they were sources and you just knew them and they knew you and there was a real trust. And I think about it at the end of Dirk's career now, that era is kind of over because the players are connected to everybody. If I wanted to get ahold of Nash now, I would just, we'd follow each other on Twitter. I'd DM him. The players text and DM so many different journalists. They're juggling 30 different relationships that aren't really substantial at all. And that whole era that you kind of made your bones in, in the mid nineties of really just putting the time day after day, week after week.

Do you feel like that's over or have we just moved into something different. I mean, it's over probably for me, but you know, we're 50 and it's harder to relate to a 20 year old NBA player. But let's say if you're a 28 year old Mark Stein, could you still even have that with a player and two players? I think, I think, I think there are guys working at today who can still like, it's, it's certainly can still like, it's, it's certainly different,

but like it's, it's two things with Twitter and texting. Like you can stay in constant touch with guys that you couldn't when I was doing it or even the generation before me. Yeah. But maybe, but maybe you don't, but maybe there are also more walls today than there are now because the demands on these

guys are so much but like marcus thompson chris haynes i mean these guys you know i see them working really hard to build relationships and you know i'm a you know i'm around that warriors team and i have some good relationships with with with players there but don't you know those two in particular marks mark spears, too, all three of them, they've taken it to a different level. I mean, they, you know, you can still do it, but I think also it's just a sheer numbers game. There are so many people at any NBA media availability now,

hundreds. The Mavs locker room at home game, I can't even go in there. There are a hundred people in there for a nothing Tuesday night game against whoever. And so it's just, it's just, I mean, you got it. There were times, there were so many times covering even the, you know, the greatest, the great Mavs teams that it would be the star telegram reporter in me. And that's it. I mean, so it's a lot easier to build relationships when they see two faces instead of a hundred. You know, I agree. I think the difference is those were like your guys and it was really hard for a

lot of people to have a relationship like that. You were in a unique situation and you also worked the relationships. I think now it's hard for anybody to, to be like, those are my guys because even Marcus Thompson, Chris Haynes, all those guys, and they're with them day to day, but anybody else can still get in touch with,

with career Duran or whoever, and they can interact with them. I'll give you another example. I'll give you another example. Joe Varden does not live in Los Angeles, but he spent four years traveling around with LeBron. Yeah. Every time he sees LeBron, LeBron gives him a one-on-one.

My hat is off to Joe Varden. That, that, like, he gets LeBron to say stuff that nobody else gets. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's easy. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm not saying it's easy. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm giving you a very small number of examples here, but I think the point is it can still be done, but it just,

it's just a lot of work. Yeah. I mean, when you introduced me to Nash, that was like really magnanimous. You're a great teammate. That was really magnanimous of you. Cause you could have just hoarded Nash.

I never would have gotten to know. I don't know how i would have gotten to him until here's the back story on that is it's like this see i've covered nash so long he he doesn't love doing interviews yeah and so he kind of expects me to just leave him alone because he knows that i know he doesn't want to do it the problem is he's an absolutely incredible interview, which is why you want him on your pod. So I got to hear him go on all these pods and give all this insight, you know? And so, yeah, of course there's... It's, I don't know how you did it.

You ended up with two of like the best seven thoughtful NBA stars we've ever had on the team at the same time. It was honestly like winning the lottery. Maybe God got back at you with Manchester City, I think. And who won three MVPs predicted by zero people in

1998 when they got together? Very quickly, and then we're going. Who are you picking, Harden or Giannis? Well, knock on wood, I don't have to submit a real pick. One of the greatest things about the New York Times is i don't have to submit a real pick i'm one of the greatest things about the new york times is i don't actually vote anymore i'm thrilled that i don't but i do uh later today my newsletter will come out with my picks and i gave it to yannis by by by the smallest of margins i

really actually do feel for harden because it's it's to now be he's going to get i think he's going to lose and it's going to be what three second place finishes in five years and still impressive we haven't seen we haven't seen a gap at the i think it's been since neek and jordan in 86 87 that he's going to win the scoring title by eight points i mean he's he's really unfortunate if he comes in second, but I just think this was Milwaukee's season. They were the story of the season. They went from 44 wins to the only 60-win team in the league, only team that's in top three in both offensive and defensive efficiency. Giannis, there's a Budenholzer factor.

John Horst has had a great run as a GM, but Giannis is the face of the whole transformation and I just think that pushes him over the top and they had to beat out three really good teams to win the East if we went back in October none of us were picking Milwaukee

to finish better than Boston and Philly and Toronto we just and Toronto, we just weren't, nobody was picking them to come out on top. And, and that's where he gets extra credit for me. Would you be okay with me leaving LeBron off 13 on BA?

Yeah, I, that's where you and Zach, you guys have taken it to a new level. I do not obsess over the all NBA thing. I know you and Russillo can do two hours on it. I still care.

I do not twist myself into a pretzel. I'm really glad I don't have to vote on that anymore because I hate the fact that media votes are deciding these super masses and millions of dollars, but whenever I complain to the league about it, they say,

well, who else can do it? Who you guys are the closest thing to unbiased. And I, you know, I guess I can't really argue with that, but at least there's real accountability these days. Um,

all right. This was fun. Uh, try to hold it together. Don't end up on a sports blog, weeping, weeping on press row. That'd be really sad.

It's a sad way. It's a sad way for Dirk's career to end with a sobbing Mark Stein out of sports blog. I'm bringing sunglasses to the game. Maybe get a good cry beforehand. Maybe make yourself cry around four o'clock. Let's get it all out. Get all the tears out of your body.

If city doesn't do well in this Champions League, that might do it. That might be the tears. Yeah. Good luck it all out. Get all the tears out of your body. If Philly doesn't do well in the Champions League, that might be the tears. Yeah, good luck with that too. Look forward to reading you in the Times. As always, a pleasure. My friend Mark Stein, thanks for coming on. Thanks, brother. Alright, thanks so much to DAZN.

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