The Bill Simmons Podcast - Remembering William Goldman With Brian Koppelman, Mike Lupica, Sean Fennessey, and Wesley Morris | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 445)

Episode Date: November 20, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons enlists the help of Brian Koppelman, Mike Lupica, Sean Fennessey, and Wesley Morris to remember the late creative legend William Goldman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's very special edition of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know it's not smart if you love movies and didn't read William Goldman's books, Adventures in the Screen Trade, More Adventures in the Screen Trade, and Which Lie Did I Tell? You know what else isn't smart? Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, there's a smart way at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. They find people with the right skills for your job.

They actively invite them to apply. You get qualified candidates fast, which is why it's rated number one by employers in the US based on Trustpilot rating of hiring sites with at least a thousand reviews. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter, The smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, SeatGeek is the best app for buying and selling tickets to sporting events, concerts, and more. Great for the holidays.

A lot of stuff going on right now for $20 off your first SeatGeek purchase on any game or sporting event. Use promo code BS, download the SeatGeek app, or go right to SeatGeek.com. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com, which continues to crank out a bunch of great pieces about the NBA, the NFL, pop culture, you name it, tech, a lot of crazy Facebook stuff happening right now. We're covering all of it.

We're also on The Ringer Podcast Network, The Ringer NFL Show, and The Ringer NBA Show are being updated constantly. One Shining Podcast hitting up now that college basketball is going. And all of our great pop culture stuff, including The Big Picture, which is our relatively new movie contest, a spinoff from Channel 33, hosted by Sean Fantasy, named after William Goldman, because that was one of the titles for some of the stuff he did. And we decided to name it The Big Picture, and there you go. We're going to talk about Bill Goldman for a really long time here.

He's a guy that meant a lot to me, obviously. I'll explain after we get to Pearl Jam. All right, so this is a special holiday week podcast. My friend Bill Goldman died last week, and I thought we'd call some people and talk about him. We're going to call Mike Lupka, who is probably his best friend, who's the legendary New York sports writer. They wrote a book together, and he had a lot of meals and a lot of dinners with him. We're going to talk to Brian Koppelman, who was considered

Goldman a mentor and was the guy who introduced him to me. And we're going to talk to Wesley Morris, who's in my opinion, the best movie critic right now. And a lunch that we had with Goldman once upon a time way back when. So my history with Goldman, let's see, his book came out in 83, the movie book, and then Wait Till Next Year came out in the late 80s.

Somewhere around then I started reading him. And he also had the New York Magazine. He wrote about movies. He would write an Oscars preview and then he would had the New York magazine. He wrote about, uh, he wrote about movies where he would write an Oscars preview and then he would write an Oscars recap. And I just was enchanted by the way he wrote about stuff. Cause it felt like, you know, he felt like he was my friend. Um, he had a way of writing about things that just, you just kind of grasp onto and you just felt like, oh, this is, this guy could be my buddy. I could go to dinner with this guy and talk to him. And it had a big impact on me. And if you read, if you read Wait Till Next Year, he writes a chapter about Dwight

Gooden, about when Dwight Gooden went down with cocaine. And we're going to talk about it when we talk to Lupka. But the whole chapter is basically, it had a huge impact on how I want to write a sports column. Because at the time, you know, everybody was writing a sports column a certain way. And you'd go in the locker rooms and you'd report them. And it was just, you know, there was a professionalism to it. But the fan didn't really feel like it was being represented in the right ways.

And I always felt like I would look at somebody like Peter Gammons and the passion that he had. Ray Fitzgerald, Lee Monfield, the guys that were in the Boston Globe that had a touch of that. Bob Ryan, especially with the way he wrote about basketball in the Celtics. Like he knew he loved basketball, but he was also covering it. And there were just certain people like that, that Lupko was like that too, who we're going to talk to. And he would write in the 80s for the Daily News. Like I felt like he was a fan, like he actually gave a crap.

And that balance and trying to figure out what that balance is between being detached, but also caring about what you write about has always been a tough one with sports writing over the years. Goldman, in Wait Till Next Year, he writes the fan notes and he's just basically a crazed fan. And the way he wrote about it, I just never seen anything like it. And it was always in my head from the time I read that book to when I had a column in college for four years. And then when I tried to do afterwards, when I wrote,

I did my own website for four years, the Boston Sports Guy. And then eventually when I landed at page two, but it was basically that same blueprint. So between that and all the great movie stuff he wrote, he's absolutely the most influential writer that I had. And I think when people, you end up with a style or a perspective and it's shaped by a bunch of different people, whether you're a writer or a musician or whatever you are, you end up pieces of all the people that influence you when you're kind of trying to figure out what to do. I think a radio host is like that, TV host, whoever. And so for me, I think there's a bunch of different writers that influenced what my takes were on things,

but he had the biggest influence of any of them. So I got to know him. The mid-2000s, which I guess we're going to talk about with Koppelman later on, but we just became friends. And to be friends with somebody who was a true hero, but who also was you know just a super generous guy who was kind of like the closest thing I had to a Yoda and somebody that

you could just always call and shoot the shit with sports movies and just one of a kind so we're going to talk about him with with Lupka and with Koppelman and with Wesley. And then I'm going to place a couple of podcasts that I did, pieces of them. He came on my old podcast at ESPN twice in 2011 and 2014.

So we're going to finish with that. But in the meantime, I really hope you read the books that, you know, at least try one of the books. If you, if you like, if you like reading about sports and movies, I would try one of the books. Um, I think it's worth it. He was one of a kind. He had a great life. Uh, he lived till he was 87 and saw a lot of great things and did a lot of great things. And I think my favorite story, which comes up in the 2011 podcast, he won the Oscar in 1970 for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. The Oscars were the day after game seven against Baltimore that the Knicks had to advance to beat Baltimore to go to the next round. And he loved that Knicks team. And it was really hard to get from New York to LA in 1970. Like, I don't even know if, I don't know what the direct flight situation was.

He explains it in the podcast. So he basically had a choice. If you wanted to go to LA, you had to go the night before or else you risked not even getting to the Oscars in time. And he just skipped it. And he went to game seven of the Knicks. He went to Knicks Bullets game seven, the Knicks won. And he won the Oscar the next day for this movie that he had spent a couple of years writing, who he'd put basically his whole career

in the hands of this movie. And he won the Oscar for best screenplay and he wasn't there because he picked the Knicks. I don't know if there's any short version of a story that could explain somebody better than that. The guy was great enough to win an Oscar and he loved sports so much that he would have rather been at the Knicks game. So he was an awesome guy. So you'll hear over the next two plus hours, you'll hear why. First up, Mike Lupka. Here he is. All right, Mike Lupka is on the line. He wrote one of the great sports books of all time, Wait Till Next Year,

which I think came out in 87, 88, somewhere in that range, about a year in New York sports. He was a friend of Bill Goldman for 40 plus years. We knew this day was coming. We just, we were hoping it wasn't going to be until about 2045. What have the last 72 hours been like for you? Well, first of all, Bill, thanks for having me on and thanks for wanting to do this. Um, the, the, actually the decline from the end of summer until now was the last month has been pretty dramatic. And I was out on a book tour last week and I was talking to his love, Susan Burden, cause I would call every day to find out how he was doing. And she said, well, when's the

soonest you can be here? And I had a, like a one night gap. I was in Washington in the morning, and then I was going to be in Boston the next day. And so I took the shuttle up and sat with Bill last Monday afternoon. And Bill, at that point, I couldn't believe he was still alive. And he just looked nothing like Billy. But there were still enough moments where somebody would say something, and just he feebly raised his left hand and gave him the finger. So we knew he was still Bill. I'll remember him for a lot of reasons,

but the thing that I think I liked about him the most was how much he loved the Knicks. He was more passionate and more life or death with them than anyone I knew in my entire life. He really took it personally and it physically pained him when they sucked. What were the last 20 years for him like? Oh my God. It was like he was trapped in an abusive relationship. I've been, I've been debating, I'm going to be one of the speakers at the memorial service. I've been debating whether to look out into the audience and say, the Knicks did this to him.

Okay. But you know, because, um, you know, through the, you know, this through the nineties,

it was okay. I mean, they didn't win a championship in the nineties, but those were as close to the glory years as the glory years have been. And, you know, and then it just all turns to shit. I was just saying to Bill before we started that I hadn't picked up an open wait till next year for a while, which I do from time to time. But here's Bill answering the question for you, Mr. Simmons, okay? So why do I go, he says, and wait till next year? If a deli opened near my apartment that had food that gave me heartburn, would I eat there 41 times

a year? The Knicks gave me heartburn. If Howard the Duck was playing at my local movie theater, would I go and sit there 41 times a year, knowing the thing turned me into a lesser human being? And then he says, I'm a lot lesser after Nick's games. Oh, no, it's been hideous because, you know, you know him and I know him. That was his winter. That was his winter entertainment. He he loved the experience, even when they were bad. He loved the experience of being in the garden. And for people don't know, Bill sat under the basket for 40 years. He was a friend of the Bushers and Bradleys. Oh, no. This was so cruel that someone who loved them as much as he loved them had to go through an era that has been biblical in its awfulness. I mean, they have won one, you can't process this,

they've won one playoff series since 2000. One, they've lost more games than anybody in the freaking sport. And guess who was there 41 times a year? The guy who called himself Little Billy Goldman of Highland Park, Illinois. Yeah, wasn't it? It was 50 years, wasn't it? I thought it was back to like 1968. Oh, yeah.

No, I don't know when he actually got the 600 baskets. Got the behind the baskets. Yeah, because he was there when the Carmelo fight happened in 06. They almost like crashed into him. Yeah. Right. You know, I always looked at him and there's this generation of New York sports fans who were old enough to remember when the Knicks were bad and then when they became good with the Willis teams. And they revered those teams and it was like basketball the way it should be played.

They finally took the torch from the Celtics and they just kept waiting for that to come back. And now we're talking 45 years, but it was almost his generation, which, you know, obviously people are starting to die off from there, but that age from like, I'm going to say 65 to 90 is one of the most tortured fan bases we have. Right. And he stayed with them and he stayed with them. And then he got rewarded with the Patrick teams that went to the finals twice in the 90s. And, you know, Bill, you know this. In those years, even though they never won, and even though Tories-Yankees came along in the second part of the decade, nobody in town felt the Yankee season started until the Knicks season ended. They were that, you know, they had recaptured that,

you know, everybody talks about Trump's base now. Somehow, against all odds, there's still a Knicks base. I don't quite understand it anymore, but it held. And so, you know, Billy Goldman had to think at that point, oh, okay, well, okay, we're going to be good. And then Patrick, Patrick went away and he took the Knicks with him. So the book you wrote, what was it? It was 88, right? It was about the 87th season. The year we wrote about, it came out in 87. The year we wrote about was 1987 in New York sports. And the Knicks were horrible at that point. The Mets were still good. They were a big part of our story because that was the year that Dwight Gooden got suspended for drugs on opening day.

And so, and the idea was pretty, you know, well, you know, you've been way too kind to this book for forever. It's an all-time classic. Well, I think it's more

because of him than me, but it was a simple setup. One year in New York sports seen through the eyes of a crazed fan and the eyes of a simple setup. One year in New York sports, seen through the eyes of a crazed fan and the eyes of a columnist. And that was it. And then a whole bunch of shit happened. And so it became a way more interesting year.

And now with your help, all this time later, it's become kind of a cult book. Well, a lot of people, whatever my style ended up becoming, there were a couple of writers in the eighties who I felt like not only did they write about sports, but they were kind of like, I could have been their friend, you know? And it was like, Ray Fitzgerald was like that. I think Lee Monfield was like that. You were like that in the eighties. And then Goldman comes in, in this

book. And it was like, my dad was writing for the book. Like it was like, who is this guy's the craziest fan I've ever met. And he just he threw away all the conventions of I'm supposed to at least be balanced or biased a little bit here. And went all in on the fan side. And he wrote this piece. It's in the first like 60 pages of the book. But after Doc Gooden got suspended for coke and you wrote the reporter version of it. And then he wrote the fan version and he laid out this whole thing about, you know, the greatest athletes he'd ever seen and how that pyramid is and how the levels rise until you get to this

last level and how Gooden had kind of reached that level for just a little bit, but now it was gone. And now he ruined it and he couldn't trust him again. And it leads to this whole story about Bronco Nagurski. And how he went to this game when Bronco Nagurski was washed up and was like the seventh string running back on the, on the bears, but somehow came in and won this game. And it, it's, it's basically like the future of internet sports writing this one piece because he's writing from it it from the fan's perspective, but with a ton of passion.

And it's just different. And it really stands out. And if you read it now, you're like, oh, yeah, that feels familiar to stuff I've read the last 20 years. But in 1987, 1988, it was out of nowhere. There's no parallel to it. You're 100% right. 1988, it was out of nowhere. There's no parallel to it. It was so you're, you're a hundred percent right. And, and Nagurski for anybody who knew Bill Goldman, it was this mythic figure in his life, but that I can't tell you how many times I heard him talk about that particular game. One Christmas,

I like searched all over and got him a frame picture of Nagurski, which was not as easy a thing to do as you might think. But his fandom, you're 100% right, his fandom was pure. It was angry, it was profane, but it was incredibly pure. And I found it out, I think we've talked about this, I wrote about it in the piece I wrote about him for the Boston Globe. We met on an outside court at Wimbledon in 1978. He had a flat in London. DeBuscher was one of his best friends, and they were at Wimbledon one day. And on the outside court, I don't know if you've ever been, but on the outside court, in the early rounds, you know what it's like.

You just get stuck in those walkways, but nobody can see anything on the side courts except Dave DeBuscher could see everything because he's just peering over the top of everybody. And he sees me and I see him and he brings out Bill. Okay. And it's almost like Dave starts to give me Bill's resume as he's introducing him. And I cut him off and I said, Dave, I know who this is. Okay. And this was Temple of Gold, Bill Goldman. It was boys and girls together. It was marathon is all that stuff. And I start babbling and it's like an out of body experience that I'm actually meeting him. But Bill, all he wanted to do was talk about sports. And that day he said, you have the best job in the world. And I didn't know that there,

but Bill, I didn't, until I met him, I didn't know that there was this side to him. Yeah. Well, you know, there's the same thing in his movie writing and in his, in his sports writing. And then just, just when you had lunch with them or dinner with them, he loved, he loved greatness. He loved stars. He was all, and it didn't, he would always talk about like Brando is the best he ever saw on Broadway. Will and Jordan were the two best he ever saw in person. And whoever the biggest movie actor was at the time, the degrees of how they could just come in the screen.

That was his biggest obsession. And he was always like, when I got to know him, which was the mid 2000s, he was really fascinated by LeBron and whether LeBron was going to reach that. And it was LeBron versus Jordan, but from a different aspect, he was just like, is he going to reach the point where I'm going to be at MSG watching him the same way I felt like when I saw Brando on Broadway, is he going to be that good? And he just, he just looked at it differently. And I was, that was one of the things I always found the most interesting about him. And you know, and Bill, from all your lunches and dinners with him, you know,

when we would get into the discussion of the greatest and he, he loved watching Jordan and later on, he loved, Wilt was his guy. Okay, Wilt had, I could not win a debate with him that Michael Jordan or anybody was a greater basketball player than Wilt Chamberlain had been. He loved Wilt. Again, he loved the spectacle of Wilt. And he's right about one thing. Maybe American sports has never produced anybody quite like Will Chamberlain. Okay. And, and, but don't you think now, cause I've, I've made this comparison before. I don't know if we've ever talked about this before. There's a will like quality to LeBron, even though he's not as big as will. Okay. That,

that a lot of people still don't love LeBron, even though he, you know, what happened in Cleveland the second time around. But I think there was something about Wilt, that kind of flawed genius that drew Bill to him and then drew him to LeBron later on. Yeah. And they have the same kind of physical overpowering. You catch them on the right night and it just feels like they're just running through the other guys and I think

you know that was one of the big arguments we would have was Wilt versus Russell because I was always amazed that he didn't that he wasn't on Russell's side with the Russell versus Wilt thing it was incongruous to all the other things he cared about in sports but he was just

kind of blown away by Wilt's physicality. And he saw it in person and I didn't. But he was just like, look, Wilt was the greatest athlete who ever played basketball until Jordan. And it was like when you saw him in person, there was just nothing like him. So he was always approaching it from that angle. I was always looking at it like, well,

everyone from that era would have rather played with Russell. So that has to mean something, but it was a great argument. Hey, I told him what became one of his favorite stories about Wilt. And I knew Wilt in his later years. I didn't see him play in person or anything like that. And I flew out to L.A. one time to do an Esquire piece on Wilt. So I got to go to the house, okay? Which if you were a kid growing up when we grew up in America, Wilt Chamberlain's house. The Bel Air house? Yeah, I went to the Bel Air. That was just for

sale and there were all these photos of it and they kept it intact. It's amazing. I can't believe you went to it. I got, I got, he gave me the full tour. Okay. And the front door, which was like the front door to a cathedral, it was that big. And then he took me into the master bedroom with a bed built. It looked like you could land air force one on it. Okay. It was epic. But finally, we come to a room that is all waterbed and all mirrors. All waterbed and all mirrors. Okay. And outside, there's a little plaque that says the do it room. Wow. And little Mike Lupica of Bishop Girton High School, National New Hampshire, stupidly looked up at him and said, why do you call it the do it room?

Oh, no. Oh, yeah. He looked at me and he just looked out at me and said, Oh, you little, little man. Is that a serious question? So Bill, Bill couldn't believe Bill Goldman that I had actually gone to the house. So that gave me, that gave me like even more street cred as a sports guy with Goldman. You know, one of the great things about his writing, I started reading him, um, the New York magazine column that he had when he would write about movies, which I think was like somewhere around the late eighties. And I was right around that time. I read, uh, the book you did with him.

And then I read the, um, adventures of the screen trade and, um, and then I read the Adventures of the Screen Trade. Oh, the best. And then I read The Season, which was, people still think it's probably the greatest book about Broadway ever written. It's right here on my shelf. Yeah. And people, Bill, you know, if you read it, it's just, you can see everything that Adventures of the Screen Trade, it's the best book ever about Broadway. I think the thing that kept jumping out with him

and was a really good lesson for me as a writer was he went all in on whatever he thought. And he tried to do it fairly. If he was very critical, he explained all the reasons for it. He tried not to be vicious about it, but was just like, this is how I feel. I'm not holding back. I feel this way about this actor, this movie.

I mean, one of the legendary things he wrote was he just annihilated Saving Private Ryan in the late nineties. Oh God. I think he cost him the, I swear to God, he cost him best picture that year. I swear to God he did. Yeah. And you read it and you're like, these are some great points. Like he's, he's really fired up for some reason,

but it is kind of the best possible version of the internet takedown that is now we're on 20 plus years of. But he basically just picks apart the movie. And after you're done with it, you're like, oh yeah, this movie can't win the Oscar. And he ruined it. But I was always amazed that he was able to keep that edge as he became this

really successful screenwriter who was, by 1976, was considered the greatest screenwriter who ever lived, but still was able to keep that edge. How did he keep the edge? You know what? You're right. There was a great definition of acting once. It probably a half apocryphal attributed to Spencer Tracy said, you know, I walk in, I try not to bump into furniture. I plant my feet and I tell the truth. That was Billy Goldman. Cause you know, he was a sweet man. He was a sweet man, but, but I mean, you go back to the season, read what he wrote about Clive Barnes, the theater critic of the New York Times. He just dropped a safe on him. And, but he, if he thought, if he thought he was being honest, he didn't, he never confused. He never made the distinction between meanness and honesty.

If he was telling the truth about something, whether it was about the Knicks or a movie or Steven Spielberg or whoever he was writing about at the time. Remember in the season, he wasn't very nice to Mike Nichols, the young Mike Nichols. And so it was always fascinating to me that to listen to him just talk about the movies in particular, because he had no filter, as you know. You know, he was legendarily profane uh will frears who directed misery on broadway three years ago said that they would try to imitate how he swore and the creative places that he would put fuck before and afterwards and nobody and nobody could possibly duplicate it.

The joke in our family, because my kids grew up with Bill, is that he taught my four children how to swear. Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah, he also, the way he wrote about stars and picked them apart and did it in a way that I don't feel like anybody has ever done it before because he worked with them and he knew how vain they were and he knew how much trouble they could be for a movie. And like some of the stuff he wrote about Redford and all the president's men who Redford tried to get his revenge 40 years later with his revisionist history of the whole thing, which then immediately got debunked. But the stuff you wrote about that or Michael Douglas

deciding that he was going to be the lead in The Ghost in the Darkness and Goldman trying to throw his body in front of it. But Michael Douglas just couldn't resist being the lead and he just was miscast. But I've never read anybody not be critical of stardom, but just kind of expose it for what it is and how it can go wrong in so many ways, right? Hey, remember the line in Adventures in the Screen Trade, and I'm paraphrasing here. He said, stars are exactly the same as the rest of us. They get up in the morning,

they put their clothes on, they come at the end of the night, they take the clothes off, they get into bed. The only difference is in between nobody ever says no to them. And it's like the greatest, it's like the greatest definition of stardom I've ever heard. And he was always steadfast in this. I would say, who are the best big stars you ever worked with? And he said, Newman and Clint Eastwood. He never had a bad word to say about either one of them. He loved working with Newman. And later on when he did Absolute Power, he loved working with Clint Eastwood. And he hated Dustin Hoffman because on Marathon Man,

Hoffman tortured Laurence Olivier, who was kind of starting to fail a little bit. And he insisted on auditioning for, or rehearsing for an hour with Olivier standing. And he could see how much pain Olivier was in, but kept it going as some sort of competitive one-upmanship. And Goldman was just out.

He was just Skewered Hoffman for the rest of eternity and anything he wrote because of that one, one moment. So it was pretty funny how he could hold little tiny grudges. Now, you know, that there's, there's a whole generation of Americans because of that movie that he ruined going to the dentist. Oh my gosh. But it showed you the brilliant, by the way, that book, Marathon Man,

I mean, I'm constantly, it sounds like I'm going off a tangent because this guy was my writing hero. That's a perfect thriller. Yeah. As good as the movie was, from the opening scene, a game of card chicken between an old Jewish guy and an old German guy on the Upper East Side.

And you're thinking, what the hell is going on here? Okay. And not knowing that it was going to set up the rest of the book. But the beauty of Bill Goma was that without any guns or knives or anything, a dentist's drill became the greatest weapon of mass destruction ever when Olivier gets Hoffman in the chair and keeps asking him, is it safe? Right. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And that was such a thrill for him because Olivier was one of the greatest.

I think he said it was him and Brando were the pantheon for him for actors. And then he also loved Roy Scheider. I remember we went to lunch once and we talked about Roy Scheider for like an hour about Roy Scheider's career and why he wasn't a bigger star than he was and how he compared to the other guys and what role could have pushed him to another, you know, it was just that when you, when you had meals on them, that's the, it was almost like doing a podcast all the time. You're just going these tangents and all of a sudden you're talking about rush out or for an hour as food's coming. And I mean, how many meals did you have with him over the years? Like a thousand? God, I, I, I don't know if it was thousands. It was certainly hundreds.

And I'm so glad you bring up Roy Scheider. Bill loved Roy Scheider. He really did. I was lucky enough to get to be friends with Roy Scheider at the end of his life. And Goldman was a thousand percent right about him. You go back and look at Jaws. Okay. As good as Dreyfuss and Robert Shaw was, Roy Scheider is like the essential beating heart of that movie. And I asked him, Bill, I asked him one time, I said, when did you know we're going to need a bigger boat? It was a great line. He said, the first table read, I said it, and everybody screamed. He said, then the next day, we had another table read, and they knew what was coming, and I said it, and they screamed again. And at that point, I thought it might be pretty good.

Oh, no, he's he's when you ask about meals. OK, do you have a couple more minutes? Yeah. Hell yeah. OK, you know what it was like. You never were allowed to pick up a check. OK, no, no. Went further than that.

You never the allowed to pick up a check. Okay. No, no. It went further than that. You never, the check never came. I never understood how he did it, where you would just be sitting and then he would look at you and he'd be like, all right, well, it was great to see you. And I'd be like, I don't understand. There was no check. What happened? And you said this the other day and you're right. You just imagined him having an account at every single great restaurant in Manhattan. I think he did. I think that's, I think that's what happened.

So the last time we went out to dinner was at the end of September. He was still well enough. His, I don't know when's the last time he saw him. His, in addition to everything else that's happened to him with the cancer and everything, his knees have been shot for years.

So you know what a big guy he is. So I said in the piece I wrote about him, getting Bill through a crowded room is like moving Nebraska. Okay? So it's a rainy night, and Susan's parking the car. And so my wife Taylor's getting the table, his chair ready for him. And so I asked one of the hostesses at this restaurant, I said, could you help me help this man to the table, which she did. When we got there, I went back to the hostess and I said, listen, that man you just helped, are you familiar with the Princess Bride? Well, this young woman, she's about 30 years old. She loses her shit.

Okay. She said, oh, it's my favorite book. It's my favorite movie. The first movie I ever saw with my now husband. So she tells the other hostess who loses her shit, who tells our waitress that. So if the rest of the night is a Bill Goldman fest, okay. All of the illness washed away. And everybody in the restaurant is, they want to talk about Butch.

They want to talk about the, it was fabulous it was like watching him be young all over again when we're leaving the first hostess says mr goldman would you sign as you wish and sign your name so i can give it to my husband which billy does okay now the bill goldman love fest is ending we're helping him into the car the last thing we hear is Bill say, so I really like it here. When can we come back? Oh, that story does not surprise me.

It was funny. He used to, the way he handled compliments, cause you'd be eating dinner with him or lunch or whatever. And people would come over to him. Like he was like, you know, Vito Corleone in the, in lunch or whatever. And people would come over to him. Like he was like, you know, Vito Corleone in the, in the forties. And one time we, one time we were eating and like Barbara Walters came over and with like whoever she was eating with, like to kind of pay respect.

And it's like, cause he was such a good guy and such a normal guy. You, you, you forget that he was really, really high esteem. Like, where did he rank in like the giants of New York? He had to be in the top level, right? He was a huge star. And when you were talking about him being called the greatest screenwriter 40 years ago, New York Magazine published a list of the top 100 screenwriters of all time last year, and he still finished sixth. By then, he's 86 years old. Right. Okay?

And I keep pointing out to people, at the age of 84, he had a play on Broadway with Laurie Metcalf and Bruce Willis when they brought Misery. No, no, he was... A lot of the obits pointed out he was the first screenwriting celebrity.

He really was, because, you know, he got into the bidding war for Butch, and he got paid $400,000 at the time, which was like, I don't know what it would be now. And, yes, but he wore that extremely well. He was extremely shy. And I discovered, I was reminded of something the other day. Think about this. In the 1950s, on West 72nd Street, three men shared an apartment. One was John Kander of Kander and Ebb, which is Cabaret, Chicago, and a little song called New York, New York. He's 91, still sharp as a tack. He was over to see Bill the other day when I was there. Bill Goldman was the second member. His brother, James Goldman, was the third member. All he did was write a lion and winner and the book Folly. Okay. And those three young guys

before, when it was all ahead of them, shared the same apartment. And Bill, they shared the same doctor at the time. And I forget the doctor's name. And he had a Southern accent. John Kander told a story the other day. And later on when they'd all won either Tony's or Oscars, the doctor called up John Kander. He says, you know, and y'all were talking about going into show business back in the fifties. I thought you were just fucking around. We, uh, he used to, I don't know if he did this with you too, but he was always kind of near the

last like six, seven years, he was disappointed that I wasn't writing more. Yeah, he was. No, he was. That's for sure. And we went out to lunch. I saw him. It was one of the years I was doing the TV show the countdown show

the pre-game post-game show yeah and I had like I had like four or five jobs and I was just I was completely I just took on too much

I was completely overwhelmed I wasn't writing that much and we went out to lunch and he's like what's going on with you? why aren't you writing more? and I was like well I'm doing this TV.

They want me to, and I'm running Grantland. We have like 45 people now and we're doing this 30 for 30. You know, and he's like, yeah, but you're a writer. Like, and I could tell he was basically telling me like, the TV's great, but you should really worry about the writing first. And if you can fit in the TV after maybe, but you should really worry about the writing first and if you can fit in the TV after, maybe. We talked about it

and he was just like, look, writing's not fun. This was a big theme in stuff he wrote too. He's like, it's not fun to write. Nobody said it was a good time. He would say the typewriter. You're stay, you just, he would say the, uh, the, the, not the typewriter,

you're staring at the typewriter on an empty piece of paper. But, um, he, he was like, look, you gotta push yourself. Like you're a great writer. You gotta write, you gotta keep, keep those fingers moving. And like, probably like a month and a half later, I wrote this piece that I really liked and I mailed it to him. It was about this Eagles documentary that I really liked. And I sent it to him and I was like, I got the fingers going. And he's like,

that's good. More, more. He's just like, he's just, he loved that. He loved the writing medium the most, as much as he liked movies.

I think he really, he really loved reading written stuff the most out of anything. So he, he, he, if I heard him say this once, I heard him say it a hundred times. All I ever wanted to do was tell my story. Okay. And he, he couldn't believe it. The day he found out the temple of gold had been accepted and, and was, was going to be published.

John Kander says he sat there almost in a catatonic state in the apartment that day because he didn't know how to react. But he took unbelievable pride in work that he knew was going to last forever. All the president's men, whatever Redford tried to say, it was his script and it's greatest newspaper movie of all time. Butch, people will be talking about Butch in a hundred years and princess bride may be the thing that he'll be remembered best for a couple of years ago, one night after dinner at Susan's out on Eastern Long Island that we would, she had a big screen in her living room and we'd watch movies.

And my son, Zach said, let's watch Butch with Bill, which we'd never done. In fact, when my boys were little, Bill, I can tell you this. I used to tell them that the movie ended when they went to Bolivia. So the kids, when they were little, they didn't get to see their asses shot off later on. And then one night, they were watching it came up to watch it to the end. And they all came up and glared at me and said, dad, um, we want to talk to you about Butch. And I said, well, what? He said, it didn't end when they went to Bolivia. Did that? Well, no, it didn't. Okay. So we watch, we watch Butch one night and it was like, what were the director's

cut or the screenwriter's cut version? He's doing a running dialogue as we're watching. Bill, it was so great that the first time they do a close-up of Redford, he turns to my sons and he said, when this movie came out, he was as famous as you or me. They're getting ready to jump. One of his favorite lines was, hush and listen. He'd say, hush and listen, okay? And we'd say, what? He'd goes, this scene's pretty fucking good. Okay. And it

was one of the great movie going experiences I've ever had in my life. Listening to his commentary on that movie. That would have been a good, they should have put that on the DVD, his director's commentary. Yeah. He, he has some, he wrote in Adventures of the Screen Trade about how Butch came out and the critics savaged it, and then the audiences just liked it. And I think that was like a seminal moment for him

because that goes back to the nobody knows anything thing. You know, he wrote for, I did my MBA book in 2009, and I got him to write about Dave the Busher, which took, I don't know, 20 emails and 17 phone calls. And then him writing a draft. And then he was like a little kid.

Did I do okay? What else? I was like, no, you did. It was great. I'm just going to run. He said, no, no, let me do it. So he did multiple drafts and finally ended up in it. And, you know, it was just, it was really sweet because at that point he wasn't writing a lot anymore.

And even pumping out 700 words on DeBuscher was like a big deal for him because he just kind of stopped writing. He had never really toured. The book tour is kind of a modern thing. And so he had never really toured. The book tour is kind of a modern thing. Yeah. So he had never really toured. So now Wait till Next Year comes out, and we go on tour together. Oh, I didn't know you did a tour.

Well, I forget how many cities. Yeah. We went to Washington, Philadelphia. I forget. We didn't go that far. And he'd always say, you have to do all the talking. I said, okay, fine. So one night, we're in Washington, and we do the old Larry King late night syndicated radio show. Oh, yeah.

Which he did out of – so we were on for the whole two hours, okay? About an hour in, Larry starts taking phone calls, and all of a sudden, all these people who had never gotten to talk to him – I mean, he isn't like a modern writing celebrity where he's, you know, he's doing talk shows. He had never done anything like this. And now the calls start coming in about Butch and about the Princess Bride. We finish at one o'clock in the morning. And the show was done out of some strip mall out in Crystal City, Virginia. We walk out and here are like a hundred people standing outside with their copies of The Princess Bride waiting for us to come to the car.

Wow. And it was the coolest thing. And it's like, Mr. Goldman, Mr. Goldman, you, Wesley said this on page 34, but then I didn't understand why, you know, if you came back, are you ever going to write a sequel? What about Buttercup? And thrusting these old copies of Princess Bride at him, and he was, like, wonderfully overwhelmed by the power of what I still think is the best, you know, the story that he'll be remembered best for. And, and we got in the car and he said, I guess they liked that story. I said, yeah, kinda. Yeah, they did. It was one of the coolest scenes I've ever seen in my own writing life. Well, it's weird. That's good. That is going to be his legacy because I

think, you know, Butch at some point is going to feel super dated. It already does to some degree. All the President's Men. I think that one's going to last because it's such a great newspaper movie. But I think the difference with Princess Bride is at some point, every kid is going to like that movie. You're going to hit a point whether you're four years old, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. That movie is ageless. That movie is going to be good a hundred years from now.

And it's going to have the same impact on an eight-year-old that it does right now. And I think ironically, that's going to be the movie that outlives him by decades, right? Oh, no, it's forever. I mean, Mandy Patinkin says he doesn't go a day in his life with somebody not asking him to say, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die. Or as you wish, or inconceivable is part of, you know, it just is always going to be part of the language. My kids and I were going through lines from the book and the movie the other day, never

start a land war in Asia. It just made me laugh all over again. It's just a ridiculously funny Goldman-like line. And no, Princess Bride, Bill always used to have this expression. You may have heard him say it. When somebody would do something, he'd go, well, that'll be in the first paragraph of their obit, you know? And I think we finally found out, sadly enough, that the first paragraph for him was pretty fat, you know, and I think we finally found out, sadly enough, that the first paragraph for him was pretty fat, you know? I mean, it's a long paragraph. World's greatest screenwriter.

World's greatest Knicks fan. And a really good friend and somebody that was always fun to talk to and email with and just was kind of always there in a lot of great ways. So I'm going to miss him. Well, I don't know if you a lot of great ways. So I'm going to miss him. Well, I don't know if you'll be at the memorial service. I'm going to be there. I won't mention, I won't try to do my whole thing here, but he would call in the morning

on the day after a Knicks game, okay? And we would go through what I call Goldman foreplay, where he'd ask me how I was doing, the kids, Taylor, my wife. But there was only one question that we were getting to. Yeah. Goldman foreplay where he'd ask me how I was doing, the kids, Taylor, my wife. But there was only one question that we were getting to. Did you watch last night?

And then he was only calling to talk about the Knicks. And we had that conversation again and again and again. And every time, he sounded like a kid who had been to his first NBA game the night before. Yeah. All right. Thanks for doing this. I'll see you at the memorial service. Hey, man.

Thank you for doing this. It's great to talk to you, Bill. All right. Great to talk to you. Thanks. All right. We're going to talk to Brian Koppelman. But first, I want to tell you about FanDuel. Fantasy is just about done at this point, unless you were lucky enough to make the playoffs.

But guess what? Daily fantasy is not done. It just keeps going forever and ever. Even goes through the playoffs. That's why I'm so excited to be playing on FanDuel this season. Over at FanDuel, you get the excitement of researching and building your team each week, regardless of the outcome. Plus, FanDuel has never been more fun or easy to play. I've been playing in their Gridiron Pick'em Contest every week, regardless of the outcome. Plus, FanDuel has never been more fun or easy to play.

I've been playing in their Gridiron Pick'Em contest every week, a free contest. All you need to do is pick winners, no spreads. 10K split amongst the top pickers. I thought I had a great lineup this week, and some people let me down. I'm looking at you, Deion Lewis. I'm looking at you, Alex Collins.

A couple people, I really thought I had it. I had Kenny Galladay. I had Michael Thomas. I had Saquon Barkley. I thought this was going to be the week for me. No, I'm in a DFS slump. If you want to break out of your slump and you're not a fantasy expert, FanDuel is clearly the place to play.

New users get a $5 bonus when they make their first deposit. So come play with me at fanduel.com slash BS. New users only, bonus not available for withdrawal. State and age restrictions apply for full eligibility rules and terms and conditions. Go to fanduel.com. All right, we're going to call Brian Koppelman. You know him from Billions, from Rounders, from a whole bunch of great things. He's been on this podcast many times. He's a friend of the podcast and he made himself available today. So let's call him right now.

On the line right now, one of the co-creators of Billions, along with a lot of other great things, and also the guy who introduced me to Bill Goldman. Brian Koppelman, how are you? Mr. Simmons, sir. How's it going? I wish these were better circumstances for us to talk. Yeah, I am. In fact, I just ran into

Rembert and Julia Lippman two seconds ago because of where I'm shooting today. And they happen to be at Dumbo House where I was. And we started talking about this. And I told them they said, you know, Bill is a long way from having recovered from this. And I said to them that we'd been talking all weekend, you and I. And I said, you know, Bill Goldman, and as I said to you, you know, I knew Bill for a long time, but I'm not one of those people who was in his inner circle. We weren't close friends or anything like that. He was a hero to me. And the fact that I got to spend time with this hero of mine, that he took the time to take me and my creative partner, David Levine, to lunches and was there to answer questions at the beginning

of our career. He was a remarkable guy. And his work, as it was for you, Bill, his work just meant so much to me. And generations of screenwriters figured out how to be screenwriters because of Bill Goldman's example. And, you know, I know what he meant to you because the other thing is, right, as a mix, when you think about somebody who dove into areas, right? The book he and Lupica wrote together, the book Goldman wrote about Broadway originally, the way he would, and then the way he wrote about the New York Knicks and talked about these things. He did them in a way that nobody else did. He did them with a vernacular that was conversational and erudite at the same time.

And he was funny as hell and nobody's fool. And, you know, was, as I say, as a man, just a great example of the way to live a creative life and a life that involved a lot of giving back to others trying to do it. And as an artist, he was kind of unsurpassable as a screenwriter. Yeah. Lupka and I talked about, you know, how he was one of the great living New Yorkers, but Lupka was friends with him for 40 years and probably saw him,

hard for him to see it objectively, he's a little older than you too. As you're growing up, just to have somebody like that take you to lunch, that's got to be... Is there anybody else as a New Yorker that would have a bigger impact? I can't imagine, right? No. I mean, getting to... Look, you talk about Levine and me, and we've referenced Goldman's work in all of our stuff in some way.

And Butch Cassidy and Sundance, Cater mentioned twice in Billions over the first few seasons. And, you know, that movie was huge to us. The Princess Pride was the biggest thing ever to us. And all the President's Men is like the best movie ever made. He's talking about a guy, his books were great. But, you know, Bill, when I connect to you, what I felt was like this, these two guys who were in some way connected and needed to be connected. And the funny thing was Goldman was not internet savvy at that time.

He was 87 when he died this weekend. And I remember printing, you and I had talked somehow just before that. I knew how much he meant to you. And so I printed out what I thought were like five or six of your columns that he would really dig and i dropped them off at the carlisle where he lived i told him i was doing it and then he called me up and he said all right introduce me to the kids it was great you know and then i got out of the way and let you guys do your thing um but didn't you just find him to be the sharpest? Like you would tell him a story and the way that he would be able to take it apart and understand it like the brain that that guy had in the life that he lived, you know?

Yeah. I was always amazed, especially when he hit his eighties, there wasn't a lot of decline, you know, he, he of decline. The decline was more physical. When you'd have lunch with him, you'd see him walking down the street. He seemed like a really old guy. Then when you actually sat down with him, he was as sharp as a tack. He was following everything sports-wise, movie-wise. I finally dragged him. We're going to play it later in this podcast,

but I dragged him on two podcasts. One was in 2011. One was 2014. And both times it was like basically kicking and screaming. He came on and then was great and could talk about anything and was like just somebody who could have been on my podcast 100 times. Yeah, when you would go to lunch with him. Sorry, you were saying. No, no, go. When you would go to lunch with them. Sorry, you were saying?

No, no, go. When I would go to lunch with them, Dave and I would, sometimes we'd bring another screenwriter along because someone would hear we were going and we would say, do you want to come? We'd ask Bill and then you'd get to hear him describe the life of the screenwriter,

the ideal life of what it meant. And how these directors were idiots and these actors were, you know, how to him, it was an incredibly high calling, which was really inspiring as a young, when you're asking about being young, being 32 after our first movie, and Tony Gilroy, so if I introduce you,

Tony Gilroy introduced us to Goldman, right? Tony Gilroy, Richard LaGravine, Scott Frank, Scott Rosenberg, David Kapp, youapp, the giants who came right before us, the real giants of modern screenwriting, they all considered themselves like Goldman's mentees. He was the guy who taught them what it meant to be a screenwriter. And Tony introduced, said to me one day, do you want to go to lunch with Goldman? David and I were like, are you fucking kidding me? And the four of us

went to Cafe Blued, which is his spot, you know, where he went all the time. And Daniel Blued, the great restaurateur, wrote about this on Insta yesterday.

And, um, you know, Goldman would never, I'm sure you had the experience with him at lunch with him. He would never let you pick up the tab, ever.

He would always have someone there who wanted to cook him something special or different or off the menu. Because he treated everybody incredibly well. He would find out, his rigorous sort of curiosity, he would find out, like, who's the sous chef in this restaurant? And he would make it a point to thank that person. He was a gracious, gracious man. Can we just talk about him as an artist a little bit? Yeah. I'm sure you and Lupita got into it. No, let's do it. There's almost no screenwriter more influential as Tristan, even if he'd never met any of those people, he hadn't been nice to

all of us. When you think about what he created in Butch Cassidy and Son of a Kid, you could say he really created the modern movie character in that movie. The movie character who's kind of self-aware, aware of the absurdity of the situation. It's not fully meta, but it's close enough. The Raya sides, while in the serious situation, in a movie that ends in that kind of death and carnage and sadness. That particular tone he struck, I believe you can find that's the root of like all the modern movie, wisecracking modern movie characters who came after. They were in serious situations, but those guys didn't take themselves too seriously. And I would bet you don't go through

a day without quoting Butch Cassidy, whether you realize it or not. I know I quote that movie pretty much every day of my life. In some little way, there's some line from it, some moment from it, that happens. You know, you look at the Captain Ross character, at the way that the dynamic between those three guys took place, you know, lines like, keep thinking it's what you're good at, all that stuff that just continues to be echoed.

And then the same dude wrote the greatest modern suspense movie in Marathon Man, and then wrote the most romantic, funny movie of all time in The Princess Bride. And it's hard to find anybody's body of work that really equals it in its variety and then level of execution. So we could argue that David Mamet at his best was maybe, you know, one could make an argument about Mamet at his best, but Mamet did one thing, really. Bill was able to do everything. And I'm not even mentioning Misery, the greatest movie made, you know, the second best probably movie made out of a Stephen King book, right? And won somebody an Oscar. Yeah. And so when you think about it, and then also he would write the other way that he gave everyone education, right? So yes, I was lucky to have written,

Dave and I were to write a movie that got us in show business that then Tony Gilroy introduced us to Bill. But even if you didn't know Bill, he wrote those books. So not just Adventures in the Screen Trade, which anybody who's interested in Hollywood has to read, but all those other books, which lines I tell, all the books about him talking to studio people, about him figuring out what it meant, was a roadmap for all of us. So, you know, misery, you're interested in misery? Bill Goldman tells the story of how he almost had Warren Beatty and how it ended up being Dreyfus in a way that puts you right in his chair

as they're making that movie. And it's applicable in all sorts of different ways. I mean, he was so generous of spirit in that he would learn these lessons, he would live it, he would succeed, and he would share over and over. He would share that with his readers. And then, you know, he and I saw each other at the Knicks games all the time. And for me, it was reassuring and an incredible thrill before I knew him.

And then when I knew him, when he and I would shake hands in the game, which happened a lot, no matter what, I would turn to Sammy who I was at the game and I'd go, can you believe that's Bill Goldman? I could never stop being remarkable to me that that was Bill Goldman. And I got to shake his hand and he got to go sit there and we

got to watch our team together. Yeah, his five best movies or his five most famous movies, I guess, were Butch and Sundance, All the President's Men, Marathon Man, Misery, Princess Bride,

which are five movies that don't really have anything in common. Right? So when you're talking about the world's greatest screenwriter, he wrote five completely different movies that were in different genres, basically, and were executed completely differently from one another.

And I think that's why, so I don't know who the greatest screenwriter is, but he's in the conversation and that's his biggest trump card. Wait, no doubt he's in the conversation. I think the one thing that, do you want to know what I think ties those five movies together is that there's a sense of humor running through all of them yeah every one of those movies has an incredibly funny moment or two that uh

cuts the drama and even in princess bride which is a comedy but all of those movies are the stakes are incredibly high but you are laughing and enjoying yourself as you're watching it. You are rolling along and laughing while you are caught in the middle of it, you know. And, look, very few people ever wrote better dialogue than William Coleman, right? I mean, when you think about the dialogue, when you think about is it safe, I mean, that was his book. He wrote the book, and then he wrote the movie of Marathon Man, which has is it safe. And the things in his movies, they feel like they've just been around forever. Like, Bill, think about Butch Cassidy.

Think about every one of those scenes. I mean, think about the scene, the duel between Paul and, you know, and think about when he looks at Sundance, and he goes, when this is over, if I'm dead, kill him. And Redford says, love to. I mean, there's no way that, I mean, if you just look at even just our work, there's no way that Mike and Warren talk to each other like they do in Rounders, if it's not for Butch Gaff, but then it's good. Same with Axe and Chuck.

It's just, it's, and I think that that's just the smallest example, and I think it's basically in all the movies that came after. Yeah, I don't know, I don't want to say he created the whole buddy cop, buddy frenemy type thing, because it would have happened. It's not like

it never would have trickled into movies. He was just the first one who did it. You know, Butch and Sundance, before that, I don't know. That's the prototype for basically every single buddy cop movie we've ever had. Every sort of these two people are frenemies, and we're not sure if they're going to get along, but they need each other. Even like Axe and Chuck, where it's like enemies who become friends. But the loyalty that Butch and Sundance had for each other. Even like Axe and Chuck, where it's like enemies who become friends. They're loyal.

But the loyalty that Butch and Thumbnail had for each other, you know, one was taciturn and the other was a big talker. And

the way in which that the rapport between them happened, the way in which that repartee happened, yeah, man, it's been echoed. How does a weapon exist

if there's not a Bush-Kastner on that kid? I don't see it. Sure, there were other movies before that. Look, there were the road movies with Bing Crosby and Bob Hope, right? People always had... But they weren't... What he did was he took two kind of anti-hero guys

and put them in this situation. They were two guys who were criminals, but he made you understand why they were who they were, gave them flaws that older movie characters didn't have when you had to have a more traditional hero, and he let them do their thing on the screen. And as I said, he made it incredibly funny. It's a big loss. It's a big loss

to the culture and a big loss to anybody who knew him, man. And as a Knicks fan, it's a big loss. Can you guys talk Knicks? I was saving some of the Knicks stuff for you. I had one last screenwriter type question though. Who's like the Yoda now that he's

gone? Because he really was like screenwriter Yoda there for 20 plus years. So is, does that person even exist now? I mean, listen, Gilroy has a lot of answers. Gilroy knows a lot. Um,

and, uh, no, the guys he mentored and women he mentored, but certainly, you know, I mean, David,

like if, if Levina, uh, I are wondering about something tricky, you know, you know, slightly younger now that we're 50, we're not really calling that much. But we would call David Kapp or we would call Gilroy if Bill Goldman wasn't around. There are guys like that, but they were trained by Bill. Most of those people were trained by Bill. All right, the Knicks. So he, you know, Luka and I talked about how there's a certain generation of Knicks fan who was there in the 60s when Russell was just killing them every year. And then all of a sudden had these glory years in the 70 and 73, but that whole run. And then we're kind of hoping it would come back. And then Bernard's there for a little bit. It's fun. Go seven games against the Celts. That dies. Ewing comes in. Finally have this

Riley as the savior. Toe to toe with MJ a couple of times. Very close to beating Hakeem. Then the Miami and the Pacers could never get through the nineties with the title, but it was still relevant every year. And then this century comes and the Knicks die. And they have basically other than 2013, an entire century of just complete misery. And unfortunately for him, this was the last 20 years of his life. I was going to say, are you trying to kill a second friend of yours with this?

Jesus Christ. You're going to make me jump out the window. How? One's not enough? One's not enough. He wanted it so bad. He wanted to see them be good again. And it just didn't happen.

And now you look at this stuff and you're like, fuck, James Dolan, just killing off Knicks fans now. You know? We're talking 20 years of it. Oh, dude, I'm so glad you brought it around to Dolan.

Yes. Look, here's the thing. You would go to these games and where my seats are, I would just look to my left and down, and there was Bill. And something is not... Yes, everything you just said is true.

He did get to see the glory years. He did live the pain of it. But what's amazing is when you think about the kind of fan that Bill Goldman was. Oh, I'm so glad I just used that word, which I'm sure Lubicki used. There was nobody who rooted harder for your, most people in Hollywood root for stuff to fail. All Bill wanted was your stuff to do well. He was a great sort of home team fan. So if you were in his orbit at all,

you got a letter when your movie came out, you got a call, you got this guy, you could tell telling people the movie was good. And that spirit was there for the next year. She would take Dawn, you know, shit or whatever,

but boy, did he want the next degree. And Dolan, you know, shit or whatever. But boy, did he want the next degree. And, you know, at times when I would like walk away, he wouldn't walk away. He would still go. He would still go and still believe that it was possible. But listen, it's very Princess Bride character-like, right? To believe that the miracle is somehow possible, to believe that the evil can be overcome. Because make no mistake,

Dolan is real close to Prince Humperdinck. So, you know, but Bill kept going. And whenever they win, there'll be a lot of us who think of Bill and raise a glass to him, you know, because he was stalwart, man. He was really stalwart. He was really there. I can picture it, because I'm sure you can. you know, because he was stalwart, man. He was really stalwart. He was really there. I can picture it because I'm sure you can.

I know exactly where he sat. I know exactly what he looked like as he took his seat. I'm not kidding around. I would stare at him during the games, dude. I would look over and I would see how he was taking it. I'd see him there with Susan, his wife, or his girlfriend for a very long time, like his wife. I would look over and see Susan, his partner in life, you know, and I would see Susan sitting there with him.

And I would look at the toll that it was taking on him when we talked. And then when we'd get a decent email, I got sent him an email. I checked in 2013. So funny you just said that. I found one email I sent in 2013 where I was like, I wrote, I just want to write you one note while we're winning. That's what I said. Because we're constantly just going back and forth

on how shitty we were. Yeah, I went back, I searched for his name because I was trying to see how far back my emails went with him. And it only went back to 2013 because of my stupid AOL. But he had this whole stretch after they lost in round two to the Pacers where he was slowly realizing that it was going back to being miserable again. And just each one was like, one of them was like,

I just read your basketball book again. It's the only thing that makes me feel good about basketball right now. And despair and just, he was so anguished by the fact that they were bad. I really, I've never met anybody, even my dad who is just a maniac with sports, I've never met anybody who was more wrecked by a team.

He's really like emotionally wrecked by them. And it's just a bummer that it didn't get better. I'm bummed out about it. I mean, he had the years where they, he did have those two seasons where they won, but I agree. And look, man, I think what's great about what you were there, that he had you in the world talking about basketball,

had to have been a comfort in a way that he could, you know. And Lupica. He had a lot of people. Yeah, he had a lot of writers that I think he liked. I mean, he and Lupica are truly best friends. that was a true best friendship, you know,

and I feel so bad for Mike. I mean, I talked to Mike and Scott Frank the day Bill died, just and Tony too, to say how sad I was. Because,

you know, these are the people that Bill was in, they took care of him. They were with him. You know, Lupica would never say it about himself, really. But, I mean, Lupica put in huge time for years and years and years looking after Bill and trying to, you know, Mike has such a tough guy image.

But Mike's a softie, actually, to people he cares about. And, I mean, he gave everything he could to taking care of, looking after, and being there for Goldman. And I was always touched by that. I love Lupica. Lupica and I are pals. I love them. Yeah, it's funny.

I think back to when I got to know him. It was during the Isaiah era. We're going to run pieces of two different podcasts I did with him at the end of this podcast from 2011 and 14. And in the 2011 one, they had just gotten Carmelo. And he was so excited because he had just gone to the game where Carmelo had won and the Garden was alive again. And I think he just wanted that again. And it just goes to show you, man, sports is... I'm having a great run right now with sports, obviously.

And I definitely appreciate every minute of it. You never know when it's going to turn. And if you told any Knicks fan in the late 1990s, you guys are going to be terrible for the entire 21st century up through 2018. Nobody would have believed that. It was inconceivable. Like, what? We have more money than just about anybody. People would have believed that. It was inconceivable. Like, what? We have more money than just about anybody.

People want to play here. What do you mean we're going to be terrible? It was inconceivable. And it's still inconceivable. I don't get it. Wow. I'm supposed to say you're not using that word correctly, Honor Goldman.

But the truth is, you're using it correctly. It was inconceivable. I mean, think about that. Think about the fact that you correctly. It wasn't inconceivable. I mean, think about that. Think about the fact that you can never use the word inconceivable without thinking of Bill Goldman and the Princess Bride. Right. Like, literally, that's the influence that that guy... I mean, I'm telling you, there's a million of those things to catch over that for a while,

where there are things that you say in your regular life that just go back to Goldman's work. It's so a permeates the culture, man. And, and we'll all, I think the stature will only continue to grow like Preston Sturgis or something. Like,

I think we were alive when a true giant was alive and we both got to know him, which is really incredible. Well, I thank you for introducing him to me. Uh, now I can let for introducing him to me. Now I can let you go back to the Billion set. Season four?

You're in the middle of it. In the middle of season four. Look, I'm sure, you know, we'll talk more about Billion. I just want to ask one question, though. Is this going up today or tomorrow? Is this going up today or tomorrow? Tuesday. Yeah.

So, oh, so, okay. Just tonight, I've never been more excited for an NFL game in probably three years than I am for tonight's game. I just want to know who you think's going to win. Oh, the Chiefs-Rams. I actually, I think the Chiefs are going to cover, and I think it's going to be a three-point game. And if I had to bet on, like, whatever the best value bet is, I would bet on the Chiefs.

The Chiefs? Yeah, I don't like the Rams defense. You think it's going to be 37? Is it going to be just a points explosion? Yeah, like a 43 to 40. And I don't think the Rams will ever be able to stop the Chiefs, would be my prediction. I'm rooting so hard for Mahomes.

I'm really rooting for Mahomes. He's great. Steph Curry. We'll hear tomorrow. Hey, man, Bill, for real, you know I told you the day that he died. And I do know how much that, you know, you meant to him. And I do know that he really got a lot out of the friendship with you. So I know the same with you, too, buddy. Thanks.

But it's really cool that you're doing this podcast about him. What a great what a great thing and a nice tribute because of how much sports and writing about sports meant to Goldman. So it's really cool. And you and I will speak over the next couple of days, I'm sure. I appreciate the time. Say hi to Levine. All right.

Okay. Take care. All right. We're going to talk to Sean Fennessey in a second. But first, if you've been thinking about getting a SimpliSafe home security system, but you've been waiting for the holidays when all the tech deals come out, you made a smart move. Right now, I can get you a great deal a SimpliSafe home security system, but you've been waiting for the holidays when all the tech deals come out, you made a smart move. Right now, I can get you a great deal on SimpliSafe. If you go to simplisafe.com slash BS, you'll get 25% off any new system.

What an amazing deal. They really do anything like this. They're doing it just for us. SimpliSafe is great protection for your home and family. They don't make you sign a contract. No hidden fees. They're also getting great reviews. CNET, PCMag, Wirecutter,

all say SimpliSafe, the best security system there is. If you're looking for a security system and want a great deal, go to simplisafe.com slash BS to save 25%. Make sure to use that unique URL. It really helps out the show. Once again, that is simplisafe.com slash BS. Hurry. The deal ends November 26th. Editor-in-chief of The Ringer, Chief Content Officer, Sean Fantasy. Hey, Bill.

You named your podcast The Big Picture. Yes. Seems relevant. Yeah, I mean, that's one of William Goldman's books. It's more of a collection. It's not one of the quote-unquote classics, but it was one that I found in the 90s and was really influenced by. Yeah, so I'm older than you,

so I remember reading those New York Magazine pieces when they were coming out. In real time. There was some great getting-in-the-mail stuff between that and Spy Magazine and Sports Illustrated. It still really resonated back then where you're just, and I think Premiere Magazine might've been, might've, when did that start?

Like 90, 91? Yeah, early 90s. There was, it was, you'd go to the mailbox. You'd be like, oh, I wonder if this is coming today. But New York Magazine every week, you knew it was coming. And you're always hoping for that Goldman movie column. And then it would be, you never knew it was coming. He was like a cat. Sometimes he would jump

on your lap. It's really funny. He's like, hey, it's a Goldman column. I've seen people say since he passed away that many editors over the years have tried to get him to write this column since he stopped doing that one. And you know, to make him more of a regular contributor because he had this like, that classic columnist voice.

You know, he was so familiar and he was so fun to read and you always felt like he had a little bit more information than you. You know, that you were like,

oh man, how do you know that like that's what's great about Clint Eastwood? Yeah. So yeah, but he never really did it after that. I mean,

intermittently he would write things but he never was a consistent magazine columnist. I don't think you know this. I tried to get him for Gretlin. Really? Yeah. To do the same thing? Yeah. In fact, one of the podcasts we're running, I think is from like March, 2011. And one of the reasons I had him come on and he'd never really wanted to come on, but I made him come on this one time. I was like, I need you. The Knicks had just gotten Carmelo and it was the Oscars. I was like,

come on, if you're ever coming on, this is the time. So he came on, he was great. But I was secretly hoping he would come on and a lot of people would tell him how great he was and he would make him kind of want to write for Greenland because we were launching it three, four months later. I was like, just be our movie guy or do that New York column. And sadly, I know this feeling too well at this point. He just didn't want to do it because he didn't know if he was going to be consistently good at it anymore. Yeah. The easiest thing in the world to do is not write.

That's one of his quotes. And it's hard to write. And I'm sure even though he had written so much and had been told so many times what a genius he was, you still have that anxiety and that fear that you're not gonna be able to do it. He had more anxiety and fear that was also great at writing about it. Yeah.

And that was one of the things just as a writer that I think a lot of us identified with how tortured he was by the process. I mean, his career almost got derailed by writer's block for four or five years, something like that. Yeah, I mean, his career almost got derailed by writer's block for four or five years, something like that. Yeah. I mean, he also doesn't have a ton of credits in the 80s. He doesn't have a ton of movies that were produced. I've always been fascinated by, and I wonder if any of this stuff will start to come out. I mean, not only did he work as a script doctor or a

quote unquote consultant on a lot of movies over the years, especially in the 90s, like A Few Good Men and Ghost in the Darkness and stuff like that. But he's got so many screenplays that are just unproduced. And in his books, there are like little snatches of those screenplays where he's kind of talking about

what's happening in this movie that he was writing, but they were never made. Yeah, what was that one he wrote where he said the producer and the studio head, they just hated each other and it just like,

and it was this thing he really loved and he thought it was going to be a big deal and it was just like no that's never going to be oh I don't know that was it it was in one of the books

and there's also just so many like he thought Year of the Comet which is this really fascinating movie from the early 80s was going to be like one of his biggest hits

it was the thing he was the proudest of and it's like maybe the biggest bomb he's ever made in his career so like my mom likes it though so that's all that matters

your mom loves wine my mom loves wine it's a great wine, no, it's the only wine movie. Maybe we should write a wine movie, Bill. But yeah, I mean, so even the things that you think are going to be incredible don't work as well. And he had this incredible sense of being able to write about that after the fact and explaining why something didn't work. It takes like a unique kind of humility. But also you could sense that he really had some like gusto and some swagger too. Really cool combination of a person who really jumped off the page when they wrote about their life.

Nobody was ever more in your wheelhouse than him. I mean, he's just very inspirational. He loved the Knicks and movies. Yeah. Also, like you came to him, you were, you know, you're little older than me, and the way that you received him, and you saw movies in the 70s. I wasn't seeing movies in the 70s. And so, he was very iconic by the time I got a chance to figure out who he was. So, he literally was heroic to me, the way he did stuff. But then as time went on, and especially when you started to expose

the kind of person that he was, he started to really feel like just a guy I knew, not just the guy I wanted to hang out with, but like a guy I grew up with, like my dad's friend or something. And that has such a powerful effect. And then you start to realize why you like the people that you like too. It's like, of course, a guy who like loves the Knicks probably would want to hang out in a deli for two hours and like bullshit about, I don't, the outlaw Josie Wales. Like that's, that's exactly the kind of person I want to hang with. Well, you wrote, you wrote a really good piece about him on Friday and you wrote that he was kind of this, he tied to old school New York, which you called, what'd you call it?

Gruff New York? Yeah. It was like, it was like cheerily gruff, you know, you'd be like harsh, but nice. Like it was like Walter Matthau. Honest. Harsh, honest, gruff, but heart in the right place. So you feel like that New York's gone?

I mean, I don't know. I haven't lived there for many years, but when I go back now, that's not the experience I have. It's a cliche to say it, but it's very shiny and rich and expensive. It feels like a slightly different city, which isn't maybe too nostalgic thing to say,

but he is an embodiment of my, at least my idea of that. Yeah. Who's the Yoda now? I asked Koppelman this and he just listed seven people, but that's kind of one of the things that died here. The movie Yoda is gone

and I don't know who replaces it. And then maybe nobody does. Well, what do you mean when you say that? You mean like the genius screenwriter? Do you mean the person who pulls back the curtain a little bit? All of that stuff. Like every writer who wanted to write movies, at some point, if Goldman had reached out to them

or if they had crossed paths with them, and Goldman said something like, I liked your movie, that's probably the best compliment you could get from anybody who was involved in movies, I would think. Yeah, you're probably right. I don't know who that is now. about his passing. There's this incredible story that's been told many times about an experience he had going to a screening of Silence of the Lambs. And he didn't know Jonathan Demme, but he was invited

before the movie came out to a friends and family screening. He goes to the movie, goes home, next morning, picks up his phone, calls Jonathan Demme out of the blue.

Jonathan, this is Bill Goldman. I want to talk. I have some thoughts about your movie. Jonathan Demme's elated. He calls him back. Oh my God, Bill Goldman, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. You're such a hero of mine. What'd you think of

the movie? Bill Goldman's like, this movie is amazing. You did an incredible job with it. I have one note. There's a scene in the movie where you have Jack Crawford get fired and Clarice get taken off the case. It's in the third act. That's just like a classic third act exposition dump. You don't need that. Just cut it out of the movie. This was a friends and family screening that he had seen it at. The movie was pretty much locked. Demi goes back to his editor. They sit down and he tells the story that Bill Goldman told him. And he's like, shit, is this right? And he's like, well, it doesn't matter. The movie's locked. We can't change it. And they're like, let's just cut the scene and see

how it plays without the scene. So they cut the scene. They run the movie again. And they're like, let's just cut the scene and see how it plays without the scene. So they cut the scene, they run the movie again, and they're like, holy shit, Goldman was right. That's incredible. And now that scene we've never seen before because it's not in the movie, so we don't even really know what he's talking about. But he had that ineffable quality of just kind of knowing what was right with story. I don't think there's anybody right now that does that. And you'd think with Twitter and social media, the way that we have it, there'd be a lot more kind of like behind the scenes slash expertise sharing. But I can't think of a screenwriter, you know, you'd think like the Judd Apatows or Aaron Sorkins

of the world, people who are thought to be really great at this would have that kind of reputation. Honestly, a person who's pretty close to getting into that stuff, and he's pretty young, is Barry Jenkins, who is unafraid to be like, here's what it's like to make a movie. He'll show you the particulars of certain choices that he makes and why. But it's not that same avuncular wise guy thing that Goldman had.

Who do you think? I mean, who did Koppelman even say? I can't even begin to imagine. There's no answer. Yeah. Yeah, I think somebody he had the weight of he

was the world's greatest screenwriter or one of them. So he could say whatever he wanted. He was right more often than he wasn't. people always say he had the reputation of his heart was in the right place. And he also failed.

And I think that's important too. Like he had real success and then real failure. And then he came back again and kind of, you know, he was all these different iterations. It was so interesting to see people writing about him too over the weekend. And just about how he was, you know, he wanted to be the great American novelist. Yeah. You know, and the fact that he wrote so many novels. I mean, he wrote like 12 novels, most of which are not very well known or well read with the exception of The Princess Bride.

And to imagine having that entire phase of your professional creative career, and then to just go on and do something different. And he went on and did something different and did that second thing, or maybe even that third thing, better than anybody ever did it. Yeah. He'd written like six books by the time he wrote Butch Cassidy. Coppola and I were talking about how he wrote his most famous five movies are all completely different from one another. What's weird is he never wrote a sports movie. And it's like he

kept the two worlds and maybe he did and we just never saw it, but he kept those two worlds separate from each other. Yeah. I mean, Maverick and the Ghost in the Darkness are kind of like competition movies, but they're not traditional sports movies. Yeah, you're right though. He didn't. That's weird. And he was obviously such a sports guy. What's his basketball movie? I don't know. It's probably like a way better version of Eddie. Oh, God. I would watch that. I would watch anything he would write. The craziest thing about this to me is just that we launched your movie podcast like what three weeks ago called The Big Picture.

And then just randomly we did All the President's Men two weeks ago. And we talked about Goldman in that thing about the experience he had on this. And we did a whole Goldman section. And they kept it pretty in the wraps. I knew he wasn't in the greatest shape had on this. And we did a whole Goldman section and I, they kept it pretty into wraps. Like I knew,

I knew he wasn't in the greatest shape I could tell. I didn't know that I'd never knew things had shifted like they did. But the whole, the timing of it, I was, I was just kind of flabbergasted by it. And then it's, it's,

it's like anything else. The one thing I learned from this whole thing is like, check in with people every once in a while. Because you get, you know, we're doing a million things and months pass. And you think, you know, it goes from June to September to November. And you just kind of forget to check in. I know. I feel like six months ago, we talked about him just randomly,

just the way that we would. And you were kind of wistful about it. You're like, shit, I haven't talked to him. And, you know, I want to catch up with him. I wish he would come on the podcast. You know, you have that same feeling about a person too, you know? Yeah, but it's just, you just seem, I'll get him next week. And then all of a sudden you forget.

As the Knicks fan part of this whole thing, a couple of minutes I talked about it. Isn't the other crazy sort of faded aspect of this story and everything

that's happened in his passing is and I don't want this to seem frivolous but I think that they're

the team is finally doing what we all wanted them to do for 20 years just throw it away just throw it away and just try to get

the best players you know and I think that there has to be some small part of Bill Goldman that was appreciating that, you know, that was saying like, thank God the wounds of the Ewing era are beginning to heal and the team finally sees that you need a kind of a process to become whole again. Do you believe his theory that one of the reasons he was able to look at the movie industry with such a discerning eye was because he was in New York and not LA. Definitely. Yeah. And I don't think that necessarily moving here would have changed that if he had lived here for 40 years. But I do think that there is a cynicism and a hardened exterior to New Yorkers and also folks from Chicago, which is where he was born, that allowed him to not accept, to sort of block the smoke that's blown up his ass.

I'm sure he liked to be complimented, but he never got out of his own head and always had some doubt and fear. And that is what drove him, I think, in a lot of ways. So those books will live on. The movies will live on. Koppelman and I decided Princess Bride will be the thing that outlives them by like 600 years. Probably. Because that's just a movie that can always be shown to any child. Probably.

And they're going to like it and it doesn't matter where the movie medium goes, but that movie's always going to work. But honestly, I mean, you can show people any number of his, I mean, you could watch The Hot Rock tonight and just be completely entertained.

It is legitimately fun, good caper movie. Yeah. And there's just not a lot of filmmakers. Even filmmakers who are working in the 70s, who you'd be like, oh, they're so dated. I mean, we watched All the President's Men the other day, and I was like, this thing fucking crackles. Like, it's really good.

And you can't say that about 40-year-old movies anymore. That was his process for making that, and we talked about it in the podcast, where he eventually just decided to throw away the second half of the book yes yeah he always tried it nine different ways and then i i guess the the most interesting thing reading about him over and over again with how he approached movies was it was always like solving a problem whether it was like how do i adapt this movie what do i do about this character how do I make this more likable? This isn't realistic enough. It was a lot of, how do I fix this? But then on top of it,

how do I fix the situation where I got this star to be in my movie, but now he's being a huge asshole. How do I fix this? And it was, it was a lot of problem solving that really works in any form of life, whether it's sports, pop culture, politics. I completely agree with you. What we do every day. I mean, it doesn't matter. I, when we were talking about kind of how influential somebody can be on you, I think it's easy to look at the way that people, the way that I write about movies and say like, this is kind of a, this is kind of a silly and like too business minded way. But it was influenced by people like Goldman who knew that a lot of this stuff was actually mechanics.

You know, it's sort of like what you take out and what you leave in, what is successful and what fails really does matter because it dictates what happens in the future, what people will do in the future, where careers will go, what kinds of stories we get. That stuff is really important

because it really shapes culture. And the same way it shapes sports and politics, like you're saying, like knowing what needs to come out, that Silence of the Lambs story is all about storytelling, you know, like knowing to cut out the back half of the Woodward and Bernstein book is all storytelling, you know, he was the best at that. Well, yeah, so the Good Will Hunting, the famous story, which he's going to talk about on one of the podcasts we're going to run.

He just basically told the guys to cut the FBI out. And it wasn't even his note. It was Rob Reiner's note. He was just reiterating. He was like, I think Rob's right. Get rid of the spy part. But then when people are trying to discredit that movie, Damon talked about it on the podcast that I did with him.

That was how they just, oh, actually, William Goldman wrote that. And Damon's like, how come I have 40 versions of the script on my computer? But it's funny, though, because there is, I remember when I first heard that rumor, there was weirdly a small part of me that wanted it to be true. Because you knew how good that movie was. You were like, well, only a genius could make this movie. You know, not these two kids. That was why that

rumor held water for some people. The one thing he was always a little, I don't know what the right word is, maybe not 100% forthcoming on was how much script doctoring he did. Because for a couple reasons I think he got paid just a crazy amount of money to do it. I think he was very

very very wary and conscious and thoughtful about if his shadow was over some movie, then it reflected badly on the writer's work. So he never wanted to be that. So we don't really know how many movies he doctored or gave advice on or whatever. It honestly might've been like a hundred. It's very possible. In fact, it's probably likely there's a handful of people from that era. I think specifically of Robert town as well, who wrote Chinatown, um, and a number of other great movies who had did have reputations though as doctors.

Yeah. And whether that meant they worked on one scene or developed one kind of character or not. And I think honestly, most people, most people listening to your show don't know just how many movies are not a single person sitting in a room writing a full script. I mean, most studio movies have more than one hand on the screenplay. So it's not like it would be some scandal, but there's a lot of rules and arbitration that go around screenwriting. And then in addition to that, it's like, he's an artist and he wanted to respect other artists. And there's this kind of like unspoken omerta quality around screenwriting and who gets credit for what that he was always respecting. And I think, you know, sometimes he might've just gotten sent a script and he might've given a note like that note he gave to the Science of the Lambs guy or the note he gave to goodwill hunting but in the in it might have been they sent him the firm here's 500 grand just can you give us three sentences so just personally

and i've said this before to you on a podcast like one i think the firm kicks ass i love the firm and two it would not shock me if he he did a lot of work on that movie because right we by the way we know nothing. We know nothing. I just throw that out because it was on last night and I was watching it. Really? Yeah.

But it is one of those movies that he was rumored to have worked on like that. And it has that kind of dialogue where there's like two guys in a room and it feels like the thing that they're talking about is the most important thing in the history of the universe.

Like he had an amazing ability to write scenes like that. So maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The two things I never could figure out with him is how many movies he was kind of peripherally involved with and how much money he had. Because you could have told me he was like the richest person in New York.

I probably would have believed it. I just know that I never saw a check and I know he lived in an awesome place. And I don't know how much- Next season tickets are not cheap. Next season tickets are not cheap. Next season tickets are not cheap. Money was never a problem for him at any point in his life, but I have no idea.

I don't know how much money he was raking in from these studios from the 80s, 90s, how many things he was involved with. The mystery was one of the things I thought that made him so much fun to know. He was a little bit of an enigma. There's, my wife has an uncle who lives on Park Avenue and he's a really old school, classy, intellectual New York guy who worked in advertising. And I always thought of William Goldman a little bit like him.

You know, debonair, thoughtful, but also could kind of mix it up and curse you know and would like you know crush a turkey sandwich while telling you about why xavier mcdaniels is really important but also reads the new yorker and is really high-minded when he needs to be um that's kind of my that was my vision of him whether that was actually true i'll never know yeah well we're gonna miss him he had a huge influence i think you you made the point in your piece like you know

some of the stuff we're trying to do here and some of the stuff we tried to do at Grantland was born out of you know some of the way the thought process

that he had and being passionate about something being thoughtful about it being honest about it

and just kind of kind of going where the passion points are. He was the best example of that. Really interesting guy. Couldn't have said it better. Thanks, Phenasy.

Thanks, Bill. We're going to call Wesley Morris, but first, once upon a time, two guys from Massachusetts set out to make the perfect T-shirt. 2009, this is when it happened. A T-shirt that felt like an old favor from day one, perfectly broken in, absurdly soft. Nine years later, they built a brand around these absurdly soft shirts called Marine Lair. Now they're making Henleys, jackets, pants, sweaters, you name it, all designed in the Marine Lair workshop in San Francisco. Incredibly soft,

mainly because of the micromodal that's found in Marine Lair's signature fabric made from recycled beechwood, which also makes their California-made tees sustainable and eco-friendly. Kyle, what am I wearing right now? That's Marine Lair, isn't it? Yeah, I'm wearing it right now. Should have brought mine today. Nice blue one. What are these called, a Henley?

That's a Henley. Yeah, I'm wearing a blue Henley right now. For 15% off your first order, visit MarineLair.com. Enter promo code BS at checkout. There's free shipping and returns on all US orders. So you've got nothing to lose. That's marinelaire.com. Enter promo code BS for 15% off your first order.

And once again, wanted to mention the Big Picture Podcast, our new movie podcast hosted by Sean Fantasy. He interviewed Steve McQueen, who has a movie out right now called Widows, or it's coming out that everybody's really excited about. I can't wait to see it. It's a heist movie. But Steve McQueen from 12 Years a Slave,

and just really good at making movies. So he talked about that with Sean. But if you like William Goldman, we like them too, and we love movies here. And that's our movie podcast and I think we have some good conversations on there so check that out right now we're going to talk to Wesley Morris

who won a Pulitzer Prize for film criticism and also enjoyed Goldman and we're going to talk about the time we went to lunch with him and a couple other things here he is alright on the line right now my old Grantland teammate now the the New York Times, Wesley Morris. In 2015, in April,

you and me and Goldman went out to lunch at Cafe Balloud, which was the place that he always insisted on going to because it was one of the best and is one of the best restaurants in New York. But more importantly, it was like a block from his house. And I had been dying to get you guys together because I was like, this would be the greatest unrecorded podcast of all time about movies. I think we were there for, was it three hours? And it was like, we shut it down. We shut lunch down. It was honestly one of the great lunches of my life.

It was so much fun. I wish we had, uh, recorded it, but what do you remember about that? Um, well, I remember, um, I remember it was a beautiful day and you couldn't tell it was a beautiful day because, um, Cafe Balut is, you know, it's one of those New York restaurants where you can't see really outside very well. And so you're grateful to have the interior. I was, and so you're like, you're just a captive audience for this person.

And he was, I mean, how old would he have been at that point? 80? He would have been 85, I guess. He was 84, mean, how old would he have been at that point? 80? He would have been 85, I guess. He was 84, 85, yeah. And he, everything still worked. I mean, his brain was great. He had, I don't know. I remember him, I remember just sort of not really talking a lot. I mean, your memory of this might be different, but

I remember just kind of being very in awe of him. I remember it. I've known you for a while now. That was the most quiet I've ever seen you for two and a half, three hours. I distinctly remember not talking very much.

It was like Goldman Jukebox. We were just like A9, Robert Redford. It was just go, and you'd Goldman Jukebox. We were just like, A9, Robert Redford. It was just go and you go for 10 minutes and they were like, B2, why isn't Julia Roberts

making better movies right now? Boom, go. And it just was, that was it for, it was just the, it was the 50 year

history of the movie industry. Basically, we were just tapping into it. It was pretty great. Well, the reason I was so quiet was because I don't know. I mean, you never really know. I mean, you know, meeting somebody you admire is, is a total chemical thing. Like you just don't know how you're going to respond to meeting anybody until you meet them. Um, I had never fantasized

about meeting William Goldman ever you know there I keep a tiny little list there's like two people on a list for like living in New York I am terrified I'm going to run into them because I don't know what I'm going to do if it happens and it's funny because Julia Roberts is one of those people

there you go it's like Oprah used to be one of those people but I've encountered Oprah. So I haven't been able to avoid her. So I kind of know what the experience of being in a space with her is like, and Julia Roberts is the other person where you're just like, Tony Morrison's another person. Like where you just, I just don't want to meet Tony Morrison. I don't want to meet Julia Roberts. Um, I just don't because I'm going to make a fool of myself and I don't want to experience that. So Goldman was one of those things where I totally could have just flipped out in it.

I would have told him like I kept the misery poster on my bedroom wall in ninth and tenth grade because, you know, I love misery, which is the crazy movie to love. But it really messed me up. It's a great one. And I also think that that's just a perfect book adaptation. Yeah, it's true. Critics, movie critics, the stuff he was writing, Loupka and I just talked about it, how his criticism was always just complete full honesty

and he didn't care if your feelings were hurt, but he wasn't trying to do it viciously. And that's a really hard balance to find. I think on the internet the last 20 years, that balance has shifted where the viciousness becomes part of it, you know, in the wrong hands. But with him, it was super honest. This is just how I feel. And if your feelings get hurt, I'm sorry. And that was how he did it. And that's something, you know, you've taken down some movies and some tropes over the years

and you've kind of held on to that too. Do you think that started with him? With movie criticism? Or Pauline Kael, to that too. Do you think that started with him? With movie criticism? Or Pauline Kael, do you think it started with her and then he was kind of in that mix as well? I think that, you know, it's funny because nobody

really talks about Goldman as a critic. I mean, he obviously was. It's not like a mind-blowing thing to talk about him as. But, I mean, very few of the things I read about him in the last couple of days have talked about what a critic he was. He's just this outspoken Hollywood person who'd like to say things about what a crazy industry the film industry is. But, I mean, at the end of the day, this man was a, was a, was a critic. And I mean, the style to the extent that he, I mean, it was just total transparency. Like you were having a

conversation with this person's written words. Although I have to say, um, I've never met a more verbose, I've never read a more verbose critic who also wrote sentences that were kind of hard to follow sometimes. Yeah, there was a disjointedness to some of his writing that actually was part of his style. Right. But in terms of,

I mean, obviously Pauline Kael is a person, like Andrew Serra is Pauline Kael, you know, Georgia Brown, even people like Judith Crisp, who nobody ever talks about as being one of the great critics. I mean, they all sort of wrote in this very conversational, but also somewhat more literary than your average conversation style um, style and Goldman, but Goldman wasn't literary though. Yeah. He was more like your buddy. Right. I mean, and that was basically where most of these people, I mean, Sarah's and, and, and sometimes kale or more on the literary end of this style of, of criticism. Um, but you know, I mean, it wasn't like... The other thing that he did was that he brought this kind

of experience to what... I mean, he knew what he was talking about. He was both an outsider, Hollywood wise, but also, you know, a craftsman working within this industry and had the means by which to talk about what a weird place it was.

It makes me wish that there was more people who were in the industry who were willing to also write about it pretty fearlessly and not care if they burn bridges or not. I guess you can do that when you're the world's most successful screenwriter. You can just, you reach that fuck it zone where, but you know, he was doing this when he wrote the Broadway book in the late sixties, it was just kind of his style. He just

never wavered from it, no matter how successful he became. I think it also mattered that he was a novelist first. Um, I think that that sort of freed him from understanding like, I mean, this is the person who, you know, one of our greatest ever screenwriters was also a person who didn't think that it was an art, but a craft, you know, like, I mean, he made, I don't make a distinction between, you know, I don't, I think a piece, I think a sofa can be a work of art too. But I mean, he was using it to sort of make a distinction about what was important about the movie-making process. But the other thing about him that sort of, I think, freed him to talk about the way the movie business worked was that he was just a cog. He was one part of this larger apparatus. And he was, you know, in the 70s, he would have been like the second or third most important part of the apparatus, but nonetheless, he wasn't, he wasn't a director and he wasn't a star. I mean, he was a star screenwriter, but I mean, he just understood his place in the hierarchy of a movie production.

Yeah. He had the whole thing about how there were the six pieces that made a movie. And if any of the six pieces fell apart, the movie was going to be in trouble. But none of them were 100% crucially important because they still needed the other pieces, which I thought was a good way of putting it. Because you need luck when you make a movie. Yep, yep. I mean, you can get away with a couple of those things not working that well. But if I mean, I don't know. I don't know. He really seemed I mean, even when I don't agree with him, which is, you know, the case he just seemed to understand, he seemed to understand what was sort you know purely empirical um he also worked at the pentagon which i think is another important aspect of what what i mean this idea of like you mean i'm just gonna sit here and have um like i'm gonna i'm gonna do politesse like in in the movie business i work at the Pentagon. I'm not going to do that.

This is, this movie is crap. Movie stars are dumb and you know, but they're also essential and I don't have a problem saying that. And if it cost me work, I don't know. Oh, well I can still write novels. Yeah. I, Lupica and I talked about how, when he wrote about stars, whether it was sports or movies or whatever, like he was attracted to stardom the most. And The Irony of a Star is Born, which is a movie that basically is a movie about not just the plots about stardom, but it's about two stars kind of owning the screen

in a really significant way. The two people I wanted to read about that movie were him and you, and neither of them wrote about it. So I'll just, I'll just have to, I'll just have to imagine what both of you might've written. But that was like that Bradley Cooper performance in that movie was the kind of shit that he really dug.

It was just like, yeah, Bradley Cooper, just being an A-list movie star in this movie, just kind of owning it for two hours. That was, he loved that more than anything. Yeah. No, I mean, he loved stardom.

He, you know, I mean, he loved movie stardom. He didn't agree that he was a star. He wasn't one. But, I mean, I think that he understood just how weird and random it is. It just is a completely strange thing to be a person who, for whatever reason, when a camera is on you, you come to life in a way that is just, you can change people's total, entire body chemistry. You know, whose job it is to just sit there and, and, you know, sit there and watch you.

Right. Um, you know, and he was also doing this, to be honest, during an era in which movie stardom, I mean, he was at his height during an era in which movie stardom had taken this

really interesting turn into like, you know, most people that you consider a movie star in the 1970s were also very good actors, like classically trained, very sort of serious craft people who, you know, I mean, there were exceptions like Redford and not that he wasn't classically trained, but he also just, you know, he's not a great actor. And Warren Bate is another one of those people, like not a great actor, but obviously and arguably a movie star. And he worked with all those people.

He knew all those people. And so he had this kind of inside information about, I mean, not inside information, but he knew who these people were and how their lives worked. And also what their motivations were. Yeah, and their motivations. And as they became a little too famous, some of the obstacles and some of the ways it could go wrong. Yeah, I'm going to miss reading them. And I just don't feel like that's going to happen again

for somebody who's that entrenched in the actual business of making movies and also made some awesome movies, but also had the ability to write about them in a way that made you think. And I just don't think that happens again because people have too much to lose now. And especially with the way the internet is somebody did that once. I think the industry would, uh, would not take kindly to that. Right. It's just not realistic.

No, I mean, nope. I mean, I, I don't know about, though. I wonder. I mean, everybody is so sensitive now. And I think that part of that had to do in the 70s, I mean, all most sort of serious critics were just, you know, they were really good at their jobs. And part of being really good at your job is being unambiguously honest about, um, whether something worked or not and why it didn't, didn't work. Um, but I do think that, you know, he did. I mean, we should be clear about, I mean, not clear,

but I do think, I wonder whether or not the way we're talking about his freewheeling, really exciting, embracing way of thinking about what didn't, didn't work about so many different aspects of the movie industry, of the movie industry, whether it cost him anything. I mean, he did have a dry period.

Yeah, in the 80s. There was a period where he was, yeah, I mean, where he just couldn't get work. Yeah, and then Princess Bride and Misery happens and then it rallies back. Yeah, you're right. Maybe that did hurt him in the 80s. Yeah, Ralph Reiner is a huge part of that.

Yeah, so he had really bad writer's block, which he was pretty open about writing about. Anyway, I know the feeling. Wesley, what are you working on now? I'm seriously contemplating getting this Michael Douglas story that I've been writing for a year out of my life. Speaking of William Goldman. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm momentarily obsessed with all the lessons to be learned from Michael Douglas, which are many. We should save that for a different podcast because Disclosure has been on cable recently and I keep getting sucked in and it is the

most dated movie that's come out within the last 25 years. It is just absolutely riveting. Oh, we got to go. Somebody's calling. I will talk to you soon. All right. Talk to you later.

All right. Bye. Want to talk quickly about ZipRecruiter, the presenting sponsor of this show. Job sites overwhelm you sometimes with tons of the wrong resumes. Not ZipRecruiter. There's a smart way to do it. You go Not ZipRecruiter. There's a smart way

to do it. You go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. They find people with the right skills for your job. They actively invite them to apply. You get qualified candidates fast. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Since we're here, holiday season coming up, go to the ringer.com, the ringer.com slash shop. And you can buy t-shirts, sweatshirts, hats, stickers.

What else do we have on there? Kyle? Uh, hoodies, hoodies, zip ups. Yeah. All that stuff.

If you have anybody in your life who loves the ringer, go to the ringer.com slash shop to check out our, uh, our burgeoning merch store that is, uh is curated by the one and only Alex Lee. Anyway, here is a 2011 podcast that I did with William Goldman. I told the story about how I basically dragged him on. He did not want to come on. It was right after the Oscars and right after the Nick Scott Carmelo. We're jumping into this at about like the three and a half minute mark. And it's going to go for

about, I don't know, 24, 25 minutes. And then we're also going to run a 2014. So I'll come back before we do that one. But here is the one, the only Bill Goldman. I don't know. You know, the Academy Awards are always what they are. And I happen to think they're too short. I think they're fun. I think they're humiliating. I worked on it one year, and it was an amazing year because Charlton Heston, no longer with us, was the head of the Academy, and he was the speaker, etc. And he was one of those amazingly prompt people, and he was the speaker, etc., and he was one of those amazingly prompt people, and he was late. And I was standing there when the producer went over to Mr. Eastwood and said, would you take over for Chuck?

And he said, sure. So we went up and started reading lines of dialogue, and they were Moses jokes, because they had been written for Heston. Oh, no. And finally, Heston came raging in, in his tuxedo. He'd gotten a flat tire on the freeway. Now, this is such a Los Angeles thing. He'd gotten a flat tire on the freeway, and no one would stop to pick him up. To pick up Charlton Heston?

Charlton Heston in a tuxedo on the freeway at like 4 o'clock, and no one picked him up. And finally, maybe it was 3 o'clock, it was a beautiful afternoon. Finally, someone took him to the academy and he came on. But that was maybe the high point. I mean, that's such a great Los Angeles story, because how many people are going to be wearing tuxedos in the F? Maybe a lot of people do. I don't know.

But Heston did, and nobody picked him up. And Eastwood doing Moses jokes. I'll bet you if you asked Eastwood now, he would remember doing Moses jokes. You won in 1970 for Butch Cassidy. Yes, but I didn't go. But you couldn't go. Well, I could have gone. I didn't go because the Knicks were in the playoffs.

What? Oh, yeah. It was the first championship year. And I was a friend of the late, very great Dave DeBuscher. And we were playing for the championship. The Knicks had always stunk. And there was no way. Anyways, a long, long time ago,

and it was not that easy to get to Los Angeles. There weren't that many planes. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I couldn't miss a Knick game, so I didn't go. I have never heard that story. That is one of the great sports stories I've ever heard. I mean, I would do it again. Do you remember what game it was?

No, I don't know. So it was definitely the finals so the oscars must have been later back then the finals were earlier they were like it might have been a semi it was that was such a great team and i fell in love with them and there was no way there was no way i was going to miss uh a next championship but then you won for all the President's Men. Yes, I went out for that. So what's it like to win? What happens? Well, I remember, if you ever saw the movie, one of the great things that... Okay, when you're working in a flick, there are about six of us who were very important to the movie. Obviously, the director, the producer, the writer, but very, very important as a cinematographer.

And Conrad Hall, no longer with us, alas. Connie did, or he did Butch Cassidy. And if you ever saw that movie, there's a scene on a bicycle where Paul Newman is riding Kathleen Ross around. And it's so beautiful. It's because Connie was such a great cinematographer. And I'm getting to the point, like the deep throat scenes and all the presence men were fabulous looking because Connie shot them so brilliantly. And I think I basically said something like that I would never have been up there without Conrad Hall and got the hell off because I hate long speeches. I hate it when people start blabbing on about their mother and their aunt and all that.

We don't care. Right. And, you know, the show, you know, were there any terrific speeches last night? I can't think of any. No, actually, Tom Hooper's speech was pretty good. Yeah, Tom Hooper's speech was pretty good. Yeah, Tom Hooper's speech was swell, and I love the guy who's younger than I am who won the script for that

and had some funny jokes about age. It seems like the British are always prepared when they have to speak. Well, it may be. It's one of those things where the odd thing about the Oscars last night is there really weren't any upsets. Except for the director thing.

I mean, King's Speech was supposed to win what they won, and I thought Inception was going to win all the big moments, and I thought... It didn't even get nominated for some of them. Yeah, it didn't. I prayed that Aaron Sorkin would win for script, because it was

such a brilliant script for Facebook. Now, when you saw that movie, obviously you're from a different generation. The whole Facebook thing, did you even know that much about it when you saw it? I've never seen Facebook. I've never Twinkied and I've never Facebooked. I don't do that. I mean, I Google. I look up stuff on Google all the time. But, I mean Facebooked. I don't do that. I mean, I Google. I look up stuff on Google

all the time, but I mean, no, I don't. And I just thought, I had no idea how much was true or not true. I just thought it was a sensational movie. And I thought that opening scene of the boy and the girl in the bar in Boston, it was just Aaron Sorkin.

Only Aaron Sorkin could write this. Well, at least he got rewarded, but Fincher got screwed over. I thought he did. I mean, Hooper did a hell of a job, but Fincher, he was the only upset, I think. Isn't that right? Was there anybody else? I mean,

there was a chance. Somebody said something interesting to me. Warren Beatty is having one of the bizarre great film career and i don't think baity's done a movie in 10 years and he was a giant giant star and somebody said if it had been 10 years ago he might have been able to hustle the award for his wife best actress oh yeah yeah but she you know, was really, I thought Portman was brilliant and is insanely beautiful and smart and gave a lovely speech. I thought she was swell and I, you know, and I was glad she won.

I thought it was remarkable work. I think the Annette Bening, people seem to think that was going to be the upset because, you know, everybody thinks the Academy is a bunch of old farts, and that Black Swan might have been a little too weird for them. Yes. And that maybe they'd, but I guess Kids Are Alright wasn't exactly a normal movie either. No, I thought it was swell. I thought it was a really nice movie.

I don't know. I thought most of the movies up this year were really quality flicks. And one of the things that's wonderful about them is that they're doing business. It's the first time that I can remember that the films that are up, the quality films that are up for the Oscars. I mean, the fighters done business and black swans done business, and Black Swan's done business, and speeches. You know, they've all, and that's wonderful, because last year in a wonderful movie on Blocked on the Name, the wonderful woman who directed it, she. Oh, the Catherine, Cameron's ex-wife, Catherine Bigelow. Yeah.

It did no business. It didn't. I think it was $17 million. The Hurt Locker. Yeah, nobody went to see it. And I think the Osc $17 million. The Hurt Locker. Yeah, nobody went to see it. And I think the Oscars helped it. But this year, for reasons I don't know, an awful lot of people have been going to Quality Flicks.

And not all of them are doing business, but it's surprising that any of them do. Well, you used to write one of my favorite, favorite, favorite columns of all time that is now alive in two books. But you wrote for New York Magazine. You'd write basically these big picture pieces about the movie business, where it's going. You split it up so you'd have a column in the spring before the summer movies, then a column in the fall before the Oscar movies were coming out. And a big part of those columns was trying to figure out from a big picture standpoint, where are things going? And it seems like... One of the things that's interesting, I'm interrupting you, but one of the things that's interesting today, right now,

as we speak, I think there's only one star. And that's never happened in the history of sound. I think Will Smith is the only movie star left. Wow. By which I mean, what they say out there, the executives about a movie is, did it open? That means, did the first weekend do terrific business? Because that's the crucial thing for a movie. And it used to be that John Wayne was a star,

and Tyrone Power, and Mickey Rooney, and Fred. You know, we have a thing. This is true, I think. Right now, you could argue that the two greatest stars that ever lived, Fred Astaire and John Wayne, would be unemployable. There hasn't been a movie that you would have wanted John Wayne for since the Eastwood Western, I think in 93.

And they don't make musicals anymore. So what was Astaire going to do? And we had a time back in the 30s and 40s and 50s when we had loads of movie stars. And right now, we have Will Smith. Will Smith is the only one

I think. You wouldn't put DiCaprio in there. No, you look at some of the movies he's done, they don't open. I mean, sure, he's done some, he's had some huge hits, but so has De Niro. But they have turds. So has

Pacino. They're brilliant actors. But they'll have movies that tank. So you can say if it's a certain, like if the next Falkner movie that comes out, you can say, oh, there's an audience for De Niro. There isn't. You know, but that's different. I mean, it used to be, you know, I used to write years ago, who's the biggest star? And was it Tom Cruise or was it this one or that one?

And now, I mean, there are no women. There are no women who say, oh, my God, if we could just get Julia Roberts. There are performers I love, but I don't think there are any women out there that are going to open pictures. I really don't think there are any women out there that are going to open pictures. I really don't. So you're saying every time Will Smith opens a movie, no matter what it is, it's going to do well. And that's what gives him the pole position. Yes. I think what happens is if you go over and check Will Smith's movies over the last 10 years,

they may not do tremendous business overall. But if you'll check them, they all open. There's an audience for Will Smith, and that's why it doesn't matter what he does. That's why Will Smith, I think right now, and this has never happened before, the only time, I mean, when you think, I mean, I had just, I saw the first two grit recently.

And John Wayne, John Wayne, for someone of my generation, was a huge, huge movie star. You know, you knew he couldn't act well, maybe he couldn't do Shakespeare, but he could walk and he could talk and all that stuff and then think about it what movie is there out there now that you would say oh john wayne was great in the kids are all right i don't think so i mean maybe he'd probably be the dad from meet the fuckers he'd probably be he might do that but that's not that's not the kind of movie that that john used to do. John Wayne used to be, that was the guy you went to see. But there were a lot of them. There were a lot of guys who were Jimmy Cagney. I mean, Bogart, one of my heroes, didn't become a star until very late.

I think he was 34 or 35 before he got lucky. And he only got lucky, I think, because George Raft kept being stupid. Right. But... So he was kind of the Clooney path. That's right. The late Bloomer path. It's really true.

It's one of those things... One of the things that happens out there, this is a theory of mine, the two best stars I've ever worked with in 90 years of movie work are Paul Newman and Clint Eastwood. And my theory about them is the reason they're so terrific and professional is because they didn't make it when they were kids. I mean, if you're a movie star and all of a sudden

you're 22 years old and everybody wants to f*** you, it destroys you and eastwood i think was 27 or 8 before he got right and newman i think only got his break because there was a jimmy dean stepped out of some movie and newman i think 27 or 8 got it and i ran that theory by a man who I met, a lovely man named George Clooney. And I ran my theory past him and he said, oh God, yes, if I'd made it when I was 23, I'd be dead now. And Clooney didn't make it until he was in the wonderful medical TV show when he was 30 years old. And I think with a lot of these kids out there, when they make it when they're young, it's not necessarily

a good thing. Would you apply that theory to basketball players? Because you could argue LeBron James making it at 18 might not have been the greatest thing that ever could happen to him. Well, I think he's a very, very great player. But, I mean, Larry Brown, who I know some, said that the two most physical athletes he'd ever seen in basketball were Wilt and LeBron. Really?

And LeBron is, I mean, Wilt was freakish. Yeah. He could do every, you know, he could just do things nobody else was ever able to do. But LeBron's amazing. I don't know. I don't know why the Heat aren't better. Do you? Now, hold this thought, because I want one more movie thing, and then we'll move to this.

Go. Just heading into 2011, you pointed out these dramas are now making money. Yes. And we could list seven, eight, nine movies that did a lot better than I think the studios thought. Are we headed toward maybe more of those in 3D movies and maybe some slapstick comedies, and those are the three movies that come out now? It's going to be interesting,

because you've got to understand something about studio heads. They're really smart, and they also know that if they screw up enough times, they're going to get fired and they won't be able to get into all the good restaurants. That sounds like basketball jams. Well, it's true. But they want desperately the studio heads.

They want to make movies that will keep them in business next year and the year after. I don't think, I mean, Bill, nobody thought some of these movies were going to do the kind of business they're doing. I mean, they're commercially successful. And that's a wonderful thing. If you can have a picture that's up for Oscars, that's making you money, that's heaven. And that doesn't happen much. And I think next year, maybe not next year, but the year after, because it depends what scripts they're going to get.

I think they'll make more movies like this, and hopefully they'll continue to do business. I don't know. Here's my theory. theory i think t as we've talked about not on the podcast but um tv over the last 10 years has kind of overtaken movies a little bit as the place that you go if you want to get really quality acting quality writing yes and now maybe some of these movies that are being made now are almost a reflection of that is that possible it is possible i mean Jesus, if you look at the... I mean, the one thing I think is really stupid is the notion that we have to have 10 pictures up for best picture. Yeah, it should be like seven.

Instead of five, it's ridiculous. But if you look, you could have made a list of those five and say, wait a minute, those are really quality pictures. I mean, I haven't seen Toy Story. I hear it's wonderful. Yeah. I mean, you could just go on, and it's a huge hit, but that't seen Toy Story. I hear it's wonderful. I mean, you can just go on. It's a huge hit, but that you kind of expect.

But these other movies, it's wonderful at the fight. I thought the fighter was a true. You know, when I went to the movie theater and I sat there, I didn't think it was going to be that terrific. And then suddenly my head was taken off. I mean, I love Amy Adams. I thought Melissa Leo. I thought Wahlberg was marvelous. I thought, you know,

it was a marvelous movie. And it's doing business. And it's a boxing movie, for Christ's sake. And I was thrilled. I was thrilled. There's a movie that got screwed, I think,

that Affleck wrote and directed and started a movie called The Town. It's a terrific flick. And it's dead business. And I wish it had been one of the ten movies that got nominated. I'm glad you brought him up, because let's solve

the urban legend right now about you and Good Will Hunting. Yes. Did I write it? Yes. It's all my idea. No! It was this nutty thing that happened because those two kids were about 11. They were 20-something. And they were gorgeous and talented. No one wanted to believe that they'd written that script. So I spent a day with him in which I said what Rob Reiner had said to them because Castle Rock was going to do the movie, but that went south. I did nothing, but I was so staggered when the gossip came out that I had written the thing. The only sad thing about that story is I wish they'd write another movie

because they're really gifted. I mean, they're having marvelous careers, and I wish they'd write another movie, because they're really gifted. I mean, they're having marvelous careers, and I wish they'd write again. Well, you did tell them, you gave them one note that I think they used, correct? Well, there was in the original script, the Matt Damon part, the FBI was after him, because he was a math genius or something. And Rob Reiner, when he read it, said, get rid of that. And all I said to them was, Rob's right. Get rid of that stupid business with the FBI

and stay with the characters up in Boston. And they did, and it was a marvelous success, and their careers have exploded since then. I mean, Affleck, after this year year i think he's safe forever because you love you love when people come back you think when the when you have the the initial success then the the precipitous drop and then the comeback you're golden after that well i think the town was such a terrific movie he's so good in Company Men, which is another terrific movie. I just think whatever it was that they did that was dumb,

whatever those movies he did with Jennifer Lopez or whatever, he doesn't do that anymore, you know what I mean? I mean, he's going to be, I think, everybody wants to have him in a direct for them. I would if I was a studio guy. And I think there are a lot of people out there who are going to want Ben Affleck. And I bet he has a movie this next coming year. So you had like about a 10, 12 year stretch when everybody used to come to you with their scripts.

Please help me out. Give us one idea. I mean, basically called rewrites. You could either rewrite them or just suggest. That sounds like the greatest job ever. Well, it was fun. It was, you know, there was a period of time, you know, I got very lucky because my first movie was a Paul Newman picture called Harper,

which was a success. And my second movie was Butch Cassidy, the Western, which is the most successful thing I'll ever be connected with. And I was a novelist. The only thing that's different about me is I never saw a script until I was 33 years old. Now, screenwriters are retiring before they're 33. But I was so far out of it that when I got screenplays,

I thought, well, I, you know, because I'd been a novelist for 10 years. And it was, it was a different world for me and it was interesting. And then basically, you know, I've written a lot of movies over the decades. But I think right now it's,

I would not be very happy if I was 25 years old and starting out today. I think it's a hard time to be a screenwriter. I think it's just, it's difficult, Bill. Christ, I don't know. I mean, I don't think anybody, I mean, there are certain things I can't write. I've never written a George Lucas film. I couldn't do that. I can't write. I've never written a George Lucas film. I couldn't do that. I can't write that science fiction.

I've never written a flat out comedy. I'm not funny. There are occasionally laughs and something. All right. But it's not like the comedies that are coming out. But we're going to see what happens. It could be that this year was a freak year, and it could be that this year was the start

of a bunch of quality films coming in. Two things that you've always written about that I feel obligated to mention. One is that it drives you crazy that we don't know the votes for the movies and how much the movies won by or how much the actors won by. God forbid they ever told

us. I don't know why they don't. I really, I've written it and I really believe it. Why don't they tell us, you know, oh yeah, we really, it was close for this guy. I would love to know that. And I don't even care if they tell us today. They could

tell us in six months. They could unseal it. They could unseal it. They could unseal it like the JFK assassination documents 50 years later. Yeah, absolutely. I would just like to know that. I think most people would. And then the other thing, and you point this out repeatedly,

is that comedies just get screwed over by the Oscars, when in fact a movie like There's Something About Mary is much harder to make than some of the dramas that were nominated this year. You're absolutely right. I don't know why people I think people

somehow think that comedy is easier. Let's write something funny. And it's so hard. I mean, the idea of writing something funny is just it's amazing. And the actors are hard to find. It's hard to be funny.

Yeah. You know, all that stuff. It's hard to write funny. And then, like, you look at the Farrelly brothers. Like, they basically had a 10-year drought. Yeah. Now it looks like Hall Pass is going to do well. I'm hopeful for them.

It comes and it goes. It does. Let's go quickly to your beloved Knicks. Now, five years ago, your seats are under the basket. You've had them forever. Five years ago, you nearly got trampled in the Carmelo Anthony, Marty Collins, Nate Robinson, that whole disaster, and now he's on your team. Now he's on your team. Now he's on the team. And I don't... What I don't know is, I think...

I think you've been to New York. It's a hard place to work. I mean, I don't mean that any... I don't mean it's not hard to work in Denver, but you don't have all the newspapers and all the TV guys and all the 24-hour stuff going on. And if he has a bad game, it's going to be headlines in the sports sections of the papers, et cetera, et cetera.

And right now there's stuff about his wife, how wonderful she is, and she's got her TV shows, et cetera. But what if he starts thinking it up? I don't think he will. I don't think he will, but I mean... You worry that he's too sensitive? I just think it's very hard if you're not used to playing in New York City, to play in New York City, because the media here is so tough.

It's just hard. But on the flip side, the fans are great. If it's in you, the fans are going to bring it up. Oh, yeah. You've got to understand the game, the other game, the first game at home when we won, the first Carmelo game, it was the most exciting.

I've been going since the 60s. It was the most exciting time since Freewell left us. Yeah. I mean, it was just, the crowd was crazy. And I'm very excited because Wednesday is another home game. And I want to see how we do. I mean, no one expected us to win this game last night. And we play Dwight Howard tomorrow night, and that's scary.

And then we have, I don't know, it's fascinating. Because, yes, they are crazy Knick fans, and they love it. And we've been so awful. We've been so awful for 10 years. All right, here's the last one. This is from a 2014 podcast we did right before the Oscars, actually. I got them to come back on again. It was the Oscars, the. I got him to come back on again. It was the Oscars, the year of gravity, I think.

And that was the last time he came on a pod. I should have had him on more. It was always like too much of a challenge to get him to come on. It's just, I don't know. I should have tried harder. Because he was great both of these times. So here's a couple different snippets of this.

One is it was right after Philip Seymour Hoffman died, which is how I got him to come on. Cause he loved Hoffman. So he's going to talk about him. And then we're going to talk about movies in general. And that's going to be it. I don't know how big this is. The story is in Los Angeles or Chicago,

but in New York, because he's a local kid or was, it's just huge in all the papers and on television. And I think no one thought Hoffman was going to die. We knew he was a sensational

talent, but we didn't know. We thought, well, yeah, that's good. That was terrific. I love what he did in this play and that play. But he'll try that and he'll do the other thing. And then all of a sudden, it's all taken away. He was almost like one of those athletes that is just cranking out big seasons year after year, but you don't really kind of realize that the breadth of the career, you know? No, that's true. I mean, I was talking with some people.

LeBron was in town, and I hate him so much. He's so great. And you look at him. I only hate him because he didn't come to New York. I know. He spurned you. I know. He did spurn me.

But you look at him, and you see him on the... I mean, the greatest players, it's probably too soon to say where LeBron rates, but he's up there. But the greatest players I ever saw were Wilton and Michael Jordan. And they were freak talents. And I think LeBron may be one. And when you have one of those people or a Hoffman, when you have somebody who's really greatly gifted, they don't come along often. And you better treasure them while they're here because there's no law that says there's something awful in them.

The other one we lost a couple years ago, Heath Ledger. Different points in their career. Heath Ledger was embarking on this whole career. I don't think he'd hit his prime yet. No, I agree. He was terrific, but I don't think he hit his prime. Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say, I don't think anybody thought Hoffman was going to get much better

because you couldn't get much better. I don't know what parts he could have played next. I don't know what his ambition was. Obviously, he was not a happy camper. And we didn't know that. You know, he had the three kids and the lady he'd been with for

15 years, and he lived in the city, but you never read about Phil Hoffman being drunk in a bar or this or that. He was just this actor who acted a great deal in the theater. A great deal in the theater, thank God.

Oh yeah, it's Phil Hoffman again. Let's go see him. It's that kind of thing. Right. And I think what would have been interesting with his career the next 15 years was, as he aged, the roles that he was taking would have been this whole second incarnation as

older character actor all that stuff I would have loved to have seen what parts he picked I mean what did he decide to do next it's heartbreaking that he's gone because when in any world whether it's sports

or theater or movies when a great talent comes along we're blessed because they don't come along often and you better you better treasure them because shit happens so who is the best actor alive right now daniel day lewis he's pretty good. I was going to say Olivier. I don't know. Oh yeah, Olivier's still alive, isn't he? No, he's not. But he's the greatest actor I ever saw. Yeah, no, I meant alive, living right now.

I don't know who you'd say. I wouldn't... I don't know. I mean... I don't think Pacino's a wonderful... I don't know. It's hard. I wouldn't know. If I can can think of one I'll let you know it's not a question I was ever asked before where do you stand on the Tom Hanks thing?

well I saw him in his Broadway show and he was really swell you're always terrified when a movie star comes to New York because the theater is so different. And you don't know, are they going to make an ass of themselves? Are they going to be wonderful? And Tom Hanks in the play was swell. He was really swell. I know some people who were

around it. It was a very happy group of people who were with him and he was terrific. And I thought, Jesus Christ, what I came out of the theater thinking, Tom Hanks can really fucking act. You never know that in the movies. You don't know how much stuff they have around them to make that work. I mean, are they tall or short? Do they look like themselves? You know, I don't know. It's just, it's different when they come to New York or when they do theater. What about Leo? Oh, he's a wonderful actor, but I don't know. I mean, he's wonderful. I would never, you know, if he, when he comes to New York, I'll always go see him.

And I always go see his movies. You don't know. It's one of those things where... I mean, the part that he played that Hoffman played, Willie Loman in Death of a Salesman, the Arthur Miller play, is arguably the greatest American play.

And seeing him do it was startling because he was so good he was so good where do you stand on these David O. Russell movies because they always have incredible performances they have these really really

rich colorful scenes that you remember that are shot beautifully, that are extremely... Well, like which one this year? Well, American Hustle. The overall movie is kind of incoherent to some degree. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think he's a terrific director, David. He does really good movies. And I'm a fan. I like The Fighter. I like Huckabee. I heard Huckabee.

You know, he does really quality stuff. Silver Lanning's playbook? Yeah. No, no, no. He's one of those guys who I think basically is very gifted. He's a very gifted young fellow. It does seem like it's a new form of, well, I guess like maybe Robert Altman, people like that, it's of that kind of genre. But the kind of scripts that you wrote were very cut and dry scripts with a

certain structure. His seem like if they're almost like, I know they're not ad libbing the scenes, but it almost gives you that feeling like there, he's just unleashing the actors on these weird parts. No, no. He's very gifted.

These listen, here's the thing that nobody has to realize. It's fucking hard being a director. Yeah. Because nobody wants to do your movie. You've got to, you've got to deal with the studio and the studio. The thing about the studio guys is they're all smart, but they all know if they make the Lone Ranger, they're going to get fired because the Lone

Ranger lost, I guess, $150 million this year. And they thought it was going to be a gigantic hit. I wrote a line once that caught on out there, which is true. Nobody knows anything. None of us have the least idea what's going to work. And so it's always a crapshoot. It's always a crapshoot. It's why stars have flop movies.

It's why directors have flop movies. We all do. I mean, even Steven Spielberg has flop movies, you know, and George Lucas, and we like to think they're just amazing, and they're having a remarkable career. But who knows? They don't know. If you could only protect one person

for the next 10 years, would you protect Jennifer Lawrence or Kevin Durant? I think Kevin Durant. I think I would try. Interesting. You're keeping Kevin Durant. You're getting rid of Jennifer Lawrence.

Well, I'm not getting rid of her if it was the choice of two. She's only 23, I think. And she's a very talented kid. We don't know. See, one of the things about these people, in the world they live in out there, I don't like Los

Angeles. I'm a terrible driver. I'll tell my favorite awful Hollywood story. I'm out there for the first time like 50 years ago, and I'm walking with a hot shot young producer. And he says, we're going to a restaurant for lunch. And he says the following quote, shit, here comes Alfred Hitchcock. Let's cross the street so I don't have to say hello to him. And we crossed the street. Now, you've got to understand, Hitchcock, who I'd never met, obviously,

was a hero of mine. And I thought that was the stupidest fucking thing I'd ever heard of. And then I began noodling around, and the thing was, it made sense. Because Hitchcock was no longer longer at that stage of his career the superstar director he had been commercially. And the young producer wanted to be a superstar producer, and he was terrified somebody would see him with Hitchcock and say, oh, my God, is he so desperate he's working with him?

And that's the way they are out there. It's a very strange thing. They want to, they want their careers to continue. And they don't. Nobody's done. It's a very weird world because it's all a crapshoot. I mean, whatever movies are coming out in three months from now, I have no idea what they are. Every executive at every studio thinks,

oh my God, I think this is going to be it. And it's going to flop. And if enough things flop, the studio is going to fire him because the rich guys who own the studios want to be surrounded with people who bring them hits. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's a movie I'm desperate to see that's opening this week.

George Clooney wrote it, and I guess it's called Monuments. I'm worried about that one. Well, I am, too. I hope it's wonderful. I don't know anybody who's seen it, and I'm going to see it regardless. But I think it's a fabulous idea for a movie. And I hope it works. But nobody has the least idea right now. Is it going to open?

They didn't screen it for anyone, and they dumped it in February. Two red flags. Yeah, you're right. If it's a hit, everyone will say, well, we wanted to keep it special. I don't know. I live in New York, and I've been

in the movie business since 1963, I think. And it's always, it's just the same. I mean, it's like I've only met two stars in all these years that I

had nothing, nothing, nothing but wonderful thoughts about. One of them was Paul Newman, No Longer With Us, and the other one is Clint Eastwood. And they were totally professional, no ego, very gifted writers and directors and actors. But a lot of them are not. You don't want to meet a lot of the Hollywood stars. I'm glad you brought up Newman because somebody sent me this question from my mailbag, and I thought it was awesome.

I'm going to tweak it a little bit. Go. Hollywood comes to you, and they say, Look, we are remaking Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, which you wrote, and you won the Oscar for. We're doing this, and we're cutting you a check for $100 million and the only thing we're asking from you is this. Which two actors are we casting?

And you have to tell them which two actors they're casting. The movie's happening anyway. You can't stop it. Who are they? I don't know. Who are your two actors? Who plays Butch and who plays Sundance? I think I actually do know but I was interested to see

if you'd have the same answer. Who are they? I think it's Clooney and Pitt. Okay, they'll be good. But I don't know. I think Clooney's Butch and I think Pitt's Sundance. Yeah, that's good. You you know it's one of those things

where we're we're making Butch Cassidy and the wonderful late George Royale as the director and we became friendly and we both liked the movie and it got fucking killed

by the critics. It did? The most vicious reviews I ever got in my life. Really? Oh, yeah. And one of the reasons was, I don't know if I want you to use this, I got paid $400,000 for the screenplay, which is still a lot of money. No, people know that.

That was the most anybody had ever gotten for a screenplay. At that time, it was a phenomenal record-breaking film. And the critics all wrote these shitty things about it, saying, why would Hollywood be so stupid just to pay that kind of money for a script, when

we all know the actors make up all the good lines and the directors have all the visual concepts, which is what they really thought in those years. And this anger continued. And the reviews were just terrible. And George Hill and I were walking the day it opened. And we were in despair because we both liked the movie. We didn't think it was the Brothers Karamazov, but we both really liked it.

And it was playing in two theaters in New York, on the east side and the west side. And we happened to stop by the one on the east side, and George said, let's go in and talk to the manager. So we did, and George said, the manager came out and said, hello, hello. And George said to him, why are you smiling? And the manager of the theater said, because we're selling out every production, every showing, and the audience loves it. And we were stunned. And George managed to say, do call up the manager over there. So he comes back in a few minutes and said, same deal, selling out every performance in the audience loves it. And we thanked him and walked into the night, George and I, and we came to our apartment. And as we separated, George said, maybe it isn't a disaster after all. And I've always thought that was one of the great lines because nobody knows. I mean, I just love that.

There's a George Roy Hill. And they're so different, those people out there. And if they're New Yorkers and they live out there, their life becomes so strange. And I'll tell my Steve McQueen story. It's a great story. I was out there and he wanted to meet with me. So on the way to the airport, I had the driver stop. And I had my meeting with McQueen, who was lovely.

And I left and said goodbye and I got back in the car and suddenly he was the biggest star in the world at this point suddenly he comes running out of his office going screaming wait wait wait wait and I told the driver to wait

and McQueen came running up and he said how am I going to find you in New York? And I said, I'm in the phone book. And I can still see him, a look, a staggering surprise on his face. And he literally fell backwards away and almost fell down. Because I suddenly realized Steve McQueen had probably been 10 years before he had met anybody

since he was in the phone book because stars are not in the phone book. Right. And, you know, big deal people. And if you're Steve McQueen, you only want to associate with other big deal people. Yeah. But that's one of my favorite Hollywood stories.

How I find you. Like, God. I mean, it's a weird life they lead, and it affects the quality of what they choose to make. You know... Go on. I was going to say, you know, by the way, I'm keeping you way past your allotted time.

We're still going, because we haven't talked about the Knicks yet. What's interesting about your career, because you did all these great things, you won a couple Oscars, you made a lot of money, you become the dean of screenwriters for all the future ones all that stuff princess bride in a weird way has become your generational legacy because at some point when

little kids they hit some age between for my daughter i think it was six for my son it was four just because he does everything she does. But every kid watches that movie. And now it's like between DVDs, Blu-rays, Apple TV, Netflix, whatever. If you make anything that's one of the best of those kids movies, they're all going to see it. So I would say I would say more people have seen Princess Bride in the last eight years than have probably seen it in the 25, 30 years, whatever, before it. I think you're right. It's a wonderful thing. I love the fact that kids like it.

It was not. I was. My kids were little. I want to say eight and five. And I said, I'll write you a story. What do you want it to be about? One of the princesses and the other one said brides. And I said, that'll write you a story. What do you want it to be about? One of the princesses and the other one said brides. And I said, that'll be the title.

And I wrote a couple of pages. Then I got stuck. And then a couple of months later, I went back and it opened itself to me. And I wrote it very quickly. And it's the only thing I've ever written that I really could look at without barfing. It's the thing I'm most proud of, et cetera, et cetera. And I love the fact that kids like it. I just, you know, who knew?

It was nothing when it came out. It was this, and the movie now is a famous movie. But it was not a famous, it was not a Spielberg picture. And a quick Spielberg story who I do not know. The movie that he directed, which is the biggest hit, most important film he did, was Jaws. And which Jaws changed the way movies are in the summertime and all kinds of things. And it was a famous faster while they were shooting it. It was just a legendary piece of shit.

The boat wouldn't work and the water was terrible. And when I went to see it, it was the first screening. And I thought it was sensational. And it was funny because the thing about Jaws was it wasn't just a phenomenal hit, and it didn't change whatever came out in the summertime.

It shocked everybody because, to quote Bill Goldman, nobody knows anything. With Princess Bride, you said Robin Wright, at that particular point in her life, was the most beautiful woman who ever lived. Do you still stand by that? Oh, not even close. I was out there with Rob Reiner, who did so greatly directing it, and we were trying to cast a buttercup. And these, you know, I live in New York, and girls who look like these girls, these breathtaking women came in to read for it, and they were all gorgeous, but they weren't what we were looking for. And I came back in New York, and Rob called me a couple weeks later and said,

you've got to look at this girl. And Robin came over to my house, her apartment, and I think she was there for 10 seconds when I called him and said, grab her. Because she was at that time. I still think, you know, she's not a dog now. But Robin in those years was so beautiful. She was a breathtakingly beautiful young girl. And you think she would have been one of the biggest actresses of all time

if she didn't decide to raise a family? And if she wanted to be famous? Yeah, I don't think she did. I don't think Robin had... Look, to be a movie star, you've got to want it more than anything. And if you don't want it more than anything, it's not necessarily a great life. I mean, they make a lot of money, but you know what I mean. I don't think she gave a shit.

I never asked her, but I don't think she did. We're spinning it to the Knicks. Say that did. We're spinning it to the Knicks. Say that again? We're spinning it to the Knicks. Okay. And then I'm done, right? Then you're done. Okay.

Because you're already like eight minutes past what I promised. Okay, go. This was going really good. This is one of the best beer supports in a while. Good. So the Knicks, I can't even describe how traumatized you are. You really just have to get the random phone calls from you and the random emails from you every once in a while for people to fully understand.

You just can't believe it. You just can't believe that this isn't getting better and that you have to watch this unwatchable team and these players that you don't really like. And there's no real way out. I mean, how are you handling this season? Well, it hard i mean it's just very hard i've been going since 68 i became a dear friend of my beloved david david the busher and i did and i followed that early champ that very very very great team with the busher and bradley and Willis and all those people.

Frazier and Monroe. Never been a team like that. And I've stayed with the Knicks pretty much all those years, and I always will. And I've got wonderful seats at the Garden, and I like going there. I like to get there early. I love to be in my seat like a half an hour before game time and watch the Garden fill up

and watch the kids come out and practice. And then the game starts. And Carmelo shoots all the time. He's a great shooter. But if he passed a little more, would that kill him? I don't know. It might. It might actually kill him.

I don't know. It's just we're not a not we may make eighth place this year it's tricky because the owner Mr. Dolan who is richer than we are said at the beginning he wanted a championship team this year and everybody's terrified he's going to fire the

coach who we all like and he may but it's his right he owns it and it's just tricky because it's very good, Bill. What can I tell you? And there's not a lot of outs. There's not a lot of draft picks. There's not draft picks to trade.

There's not cap space for at least one more year. I mean, if I was running the Knicks, you have all these big guys coming up after 2015. You got Kevin Love and Duran and Westbrook. My goal would be to not tie up my cap to have a chance at these. Unfortunately, this was the strategy in 2010

and it led you instead of LeBron and Wade and all these possibilities to a Meyer Stadler. One of the things you've got to realize about the Knicks, this year, we're halfway through the season. This year, we have absolutely, without bullshitting or faking, sold out every seat. It's an absolute sellout.

Every damn game, they usually fake it, but this is real. And there was a thing in the paper that Knicks are the most valuable franchise in pro basketball. I think they're worth $1.4 billion. Well, Dolan's got to be pretty happy with that. I don't know if he cares. I mean, he's a businessman.

That's what they care about, isn't it? You'd think. I mean, he took over in 2001, and you've won one playoff series since. That's trouble. Leave me since. That's trouble. Oh, God. Leave me alone. That's trouble. I love it. I love it. But, you know, you get—I can't imagine what it's like being a fan of Miami's now.

They came to town the other day. You're looking at those teams. I don't know how long Wade's going to be good for or great for, but LeBron's just... I've seen three great players in my life, Wilt and Michael and LeBron. They are the three greatest players I've ever seen, and they don't happen often. It's like in tennis, when Roger Federer came along, you had to think, oh my God, please don't let him get hurt.

Because those years when Federer, 10 years ago, Federer was as great as any tennis player who ever lived. And these kids, these talents that happen so rarely are what give us pleasure, I think. Well, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about the pyramid. If I ever do another version of my book and I wish I'd buy several like I did. Well, you read the last one the uh I think LeBron has passed Wilt I think he is now number six and he's knocking on the door of Bird and Magic and what's crazy is this is his 11th season Bird really only had 10 seasons actually he had nine he got hurt played another one and then two played another one, and then two, he was out.

Magic was 12, got HIV, he was out. LeBron has almost had a career that is as long as those guys, which seems bizarre to think that, but it's a fact. He's had four MVPs. He's won two titles. He statistically is better than those guys. He was a better two-way player than those guys. It's pretty close.

One of the things about LeBron that's amazing when you see him is he can do everything. He can run. He can rebound. He can pass. He could score 35 points a game. I think if he wanted to instead of 25. I think he's just very, very great and thrilling to watch.

I see. I think you've lost your luster for Bird a little bit. You were the guy who wrote in one of my favorite sports books ever, Wait Till Next Year, with Lupica. You wrote a whole chapter

about how great Bird was and how people were going to forget this someday because that's what people do with old athletes. Yes. And now you're doing it with Bird. Well, not really. Maybe. But if we were sitting

having drinks, I would start to remember. He was very great. If you were making your list of during the 47 years or whatever that you've had Knicks tickets the can't miss guys passing through town that you just like, oh no, I can't do anything that night.

Cause he's coming. It would be a short list and bird would be on it. That is correct. Bird is one of them. Yeah. I love magic. Jordan. Will.

Who else is on the list? LeBron. LeBron is the ran on that list yet. I love to read. I don't know if he wants, you know, he's one of the 10 greatest that ever lived. Wow, you're giving him 10 greatest?

Don't you think he is? I think he can... Who are we talking about? Durant. Yeah, I think Durant's one of the greatest players I've ever seen. Yeah, I need to see it for 10 years. I can't think about it until year 10. I think what he's doing this year,

he's putting together one of the greatest offensive seasons ever of all time. He's 31 a game, eight rebounds, five assists, 50, 40, 90 percentages. It's ridiculous. I know. He's very great. I'm giving him my MVP vote. Yeah. Unless LeBron gets mad and decides to flip the narrative.

Well, listen, you weren't nearly as traumatized sounding about the Knicks as you are on phone call. I think you held back. I don't think you wanted to cause waves. Are we done now? Yeah, we're done. That was 43 minutes. That was unbelievable. All right.

Your time is valuable. All right. You're not going to make a recording of this, are you? We might. We might make a recording and play it. One of my favorite writers ever, my friend, a great advice giver over the years.

Great to have you on the BS Report. My pleasure. If you could send me a copy, I'd love it. I would absolutely do that. Thank you. Alright, that's it for the Goldman extravaganza. Sorry that was so long. But man, when you have a hero

and he turns out to be even a greater person and a cool friend and all that stuff, that he just matches up to the expectations. It's pretty fortunate. Doesn't happen a lot. And he was great. I'm really going to miss him. Wanted to mention, if you wanted to get any of the books that he wrote on Apple or Amazon or any of those and try one out, you can check them all out.

Adventures of Screen Trade, Which Light Did I Tell in the Big Picture. You can get any of those. Which Light Did I Tell in the Big Picture are more like. And they're more of the last 25, 30 years. And then, of course, Wait Till Next Year, which we talked about extensively earlier. One of the all-time classics. That one's much harder to get. You have to go to the used bookstores. I don't even know if that's on Apple.

But that's an all-timer. And that one still holds up. I read like 100 pages this weekend. And it still feels like you can read it anytime you want. Thanks to everybody who came on today. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com. Thanks to FanDuel.

Remember, even if your fantasy season has gone kaput, you can still play Daily Fantasy every week. FanDuel has tons of ways to play, like the Gridiron Pick'em Contest. Just pick winners, no spreads. 10K is split amongst the top pickers. If you've tried other DFS sites and if you're not a fantasy expert, try FanDuel. It is clearly the place to play.

New users get a $5 bonus when they make their first deposit. Come play with me at fanduel.com slash BS. That is fanduel.com slash BS. New users only. Bonus not available for withdrawal. State and age restrictions apply for full eligibility rules and terms and conditions. Go to fanduel.com. We're going to have one more BS podcast that we are dropping much later this week. Until then. On the wayside On the first side of the river

I said I don't have to ever