The Bill Simmons Podcast - Reviving the Clippers, Saving the Knicks, and Riding the Chiefs With Howard Beck and Robert Mays | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 440)

Episode Date: November 9, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Bleacher Report's Howard Beck to discuss the Clippers' renaissance, the Knicks' turmoil, the Warriors' dynasty, and the evolution of sports media (3:10). Then Robert Mays joins to talk about Super Bowl contenders and placing NFL wagers for Week 10 (1:03:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? When you're a Celtic fan, you go to a Laker game. I went last night. LeBron, Minnesota. It was fun on paper. I just don't like being around Laker fans. I'm sorry.

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bunch of stuff. We're going to talk NBA with Howard Beck. We're going to talk NFL with Robert Mays. First, Pro Jam. All right. On the line right now from the Bleacher Report. He's covered in Clippers Kool-Aid right now. We're going to talk to him anyway. Howard Beck, how are you? I'm doing well. I'm toweling off all the excess Kool-Aid.

God, you went there. They took a T-shirt cannon thing out and the excess Kool-Aid God you went there they just they took a t-shirt cannon thing out and just shot Kool-Aid at you but the thing is I believe it

I really do think they have a chance at Kevin Durant and in general I like what they're building and doing and I have no skin in this game

other than I have you know season tickets and I barely go to the games but I do like what they're building. Ballmer is a very compelling guy. We don't 100% have evidence yet that he's a good NBA owner,

but it seems like you believe that they're on the right path, right? Yeah, listen. I mean, first of all, the Kool-Aid tasted great. I think they've got the right mix of fruit flavor and sugar in there. You and I grew up in the Kool-A cool, we're the Kool-Aid generation. It, you know, it, it, there's also just a sense around that team bill around that, that organization. It's, it, you know how this is,

there's a little bit of this where when you're reporting on something, you just pick up on vibes of organizations. And this is, this goes all the, you know, the culture stuff that we always talk about. Yeah. Like when I'm around the Knicks, you know, always talk about. When I'm around the Knicks, I spent way too much time around the Knicks. Even to this day, the Knicks, there's just a tension in the garden. It just feels tense. Whether it's good years, bad years, middle years,

there's just a tension and an edginess, a paranoia. Every team's got a little bit different feeling. The Nets organization, a much lighter atmosphere there, even when they're going through a really bad period like they've been through. The Clippers, and I do think these things start with ownership. You take on a little bit of the personality of your owner. And Ballmer's not there every day. He still lives mostly in Bellevue, Washington. But he's this gregarious, outgoing,

personable figure who calls everybody by their first name and insists on being called by his first name and just wears polo shirts to the office and just has this incredible contagious enthusiasm. Now, you can get caught up in that. And if anybody wants to accuse me of just soaking up that atmosphere a little too much while I was there, that's fine. But on the fundamentals, what the Clippers are doing right now, for the first time really in their history, they're acting like a smart, modern, progressive, sophisticated NBA team. It doesn't mean you're going to land Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard. You can do everything right and still lose in the free agent game. And we've seen that many times in the NBA. But they're doing the

right things. They've hired smart people in the front office. They've got their books clear for the biggest free agent class in recent memory for next July. They have an interesting competitive roster that if you're a star, you may look at those guys and say, I know they're not keeping all of them, but I'll go to war with Pat Beverly. I don't mind having Danilo Gallinari or Tobias Harris as my wingman like you need the semblance of that. And then on top of all of that, to have an, an enthusiastic committed owner who's willing to spend, who has proven already that he will spend. And you're in LA,

like, think about it this way. You've been out there a long time. Doesn't it just stun you every time you think about it, how long the Clippers have been located in LA, but have never been able to leverage and, and take advantage of LA. Like it's almost as if they might as well be in LA, but have never been able to leverage and take advantage of LA. It's almost as if they might as well be in some podunk town in the middle of the Midwest

somewhere. They've never had the advantages that LA should bring because their owner was a terrible person who, in NBA venues and otherwise, who didn't actually care, didn't spend. They squandered it. They squandered all of the advantages they should have had of Los Angeles for decades. And they're not now. Yeah, their owner was a racist slumlord, which, as it turns out, is kind of a turnoff. Occasionally, people don't like that as much, but I thought it was over for the Clippers

when they couldn't seize this advantage that they had with Chris Paul and Blake Griffin and being a contender. And on the flip side, the Lakers are just in the abyss all of a sudden. And they had like this three, four year window there where if it was ever going to happen, if they're ever going to really make an inroad or whatever, it felt like it should have happened.

And it just didn't. And if anything, the opposite happened. Like by last year, the people just would rather have watched all those young Lakers. And it's hard to compete against the Laker DNA too. But I think a real part of that was that it was such an unlikable Clippers team to watch.

And going back to what you just said about the vibe in the arena, it was just, the games were tense. It was unenjoyable to be there just as a paying customer because it didn't seem like the players liked each other. Their style was weird. Just everything about it fell off. And now this team is pretty lovable. So whether that translates to the Kevin Durant thing, I don't know. I think they have a better chance at Durant than Kawhi

personally, because to me, it makes much more sense if I'm Durant to go to the Clippers than the Knicks. Because as you pointed out, the owner had cast such a big shadow for better or worse over whatever the organization is. If you have a meeting with Steve Ballmer and then you have a meeting with James Dolan, ultimately, these guys think about this stuff. They all talk to each other. They all know who the good organizations and good owners are

and who the bad ones and the bad owners are. And I do think that's an advantage for the Clips. And the other thing, which I've said before on the pod, is just that Durant and LeBron in the same city feels like a thing. When you compare this Clippers organization to what you've seen living in New York with this Knicks thing in the last 15 years, what is the case to go to the Knicks other than that it would be cool to live in New York? Yeah, it's a funny thing, Bill, because like, obviously I live here, right? I'm in, I'm in Brooklyn. I'm surrounded every day by, by Knicks fan and just New Yorkers who, you know, the, the New York exceptionalism

and, uh, and Nick exceptionalism is like a real thing here. And look, I've been living here for 14 years and I lived in LA for seven. And like, you know, I, I know the advantages to, to both these markets. I love living in both places personally, but when it comes to an NBA star making a decision on where to spend their career, who to tie their career to, like you're entrusting your career four or five years, however long a contract might be to that organization and ultimately that owner. Now I had one agent along the way with this Clipper story. Tell me.

Yeah, I think of that stuff. I got to look out for my guys and think about the owner, but, but, but the players don't think about the owner. They should, this agent said,

but they don't necessarily, it's not on the list of considerations. So if, if you're Kevin Durant and maybe you're not that wise to like just how disastrous Dolan has been as an owner for the last 20 years, and your agent is Rich Kleiman, who fancies himself the next GM of the Knicks, or someday GM of the Knicks, and you know those guys well, obviously, you've spent a lot of time with them. Maybe they talk themselves into it. And look, other people have talked themselves into the idea that I'll be the one to save the Knicks. Um,

but look, look at the fundamentals here. And then this is where it goes back to what I, what I like about what the Clippers have done with the roster by not doing the tear down, by not doing the go in the tank and let's just see where we end up by taking this middle path. They've got some semblance of really good role players that,

that if you're a superstar, you can go, yeah, I can keep playing with those guys and succeeding immediately as opposed to a rebuild. Whereas with the Knicks, look, everything depends on Porzingis' knee. And we've never seen a 7'3 guy play the way that Porzingis does, much less a 7'3 guy play that way and then tear his ACL and have to come back from it and try to regain all that perimeter mobility and athleticism. So he's a big wild card. And if you're Durant or Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, anybody,

and you're looking, well, I don't know if Porzingis will be himself again. And then what else is there? I mean, Tim Hardaway Jr.'s terrible contract and a still not quite sure what he's going to be, Frank Milakina, and a might-be-good-someday Kevin Knox. I mean, there's just no certainty there, and it might take, especially the young guys, time to be competitive. So in the meantime...

If you're rich, you're selling it to KD like... Let's assume the Warriors win the title this year. You just won three straight. You're going down in history as one of the best 15 ever. Finish this in New York. Bringing a title to the Knicks, the long game of this, is the biggest

thing that's out there for any basketball player. You're not going to win the title next year. This is going to take a couple years, but this is the move. Now, if I was Kevin Durant, I'd be like, that all sounds great, but I'm not going to the Knicks. They're a mess. As you

point out, the Clippers, one of the fascinating things about them is they don't have a single bad contract on the roster, which is almost impossible in 2018-19, even with the shorter contracts. Everybody has that one

mistake. It's like, when you're in your fantasy draft, the shorter contracts. Everybody has that one kind of mistake. You know, it's like, oh man, I wish I had done that. You know, it's like when you're in your fantasy draft,

you always have the one guy you're like, oh man, why did I spend $37 on that guy? The Clippers don't have that guy. Gallinari was that guy. And now this year,

he's looked great. I mean, it kind of makes you wonder what happened last year when he was overweight and a little banged up and all that. But this year, he's been great.

They have expiring contracts, guys on contract, you know, contract years with motivation combined with people with something to prove. And if Durant went there, I do think that would be one of the best teams. You know, and then you're like one trade away at that point. If he goes to the Knicks, I don't know how many years that takes. And now you're trusting the trade away at that point. If he goes to the Knicks, I don't know how many years that takes. And now you're trusting the Knicks to figure that out. The only way it really makes sense to me, and I can't believe more people haven't mentioned this,

I have no inside information at all, is if they hired Rich. If they made Rich like the team president and part of it was he brought Durant and it was a package deal. That would make sense to me. I don't think they should do that, but that's the one scenario

I could see Durant going to the Knicks. It'd be really weird. I mean, it'd be unprecedented, I think. But it's not unprecedented because that's Palenka did it. What's Palenka's title? Well, but Palenka did it. What's Palenka's title?

Well, but Palenka did it. If Palenka had done that in his prime while taking Kobe somewhere with him, right. Or James Harden somewhere with him, if he'd gone to the Rockets, it's me and James together. Right. But I mean, Palenka did a post, you know, he didn't, he didn't go in tandem with one of his guys. But do you think because he didn't think of the idea?

I mean, maybe, um, I don't know. I mean, listen, maybe, maybe,

you know, there's, there's all these fun ways to like draw the lines, right? Like everybody's been doing it. We all do this, all the connect the dots stuff and you know, uh,

who Katie is friends with and who are, you know, playing for the Knicks or coaching for the Knicks, all this other stuff, none of which may matter whatsoever. I mean, the guy used to train him, Adam Harrington, is working for the Nets. Yeah. You know, we're not drawing that line yet.

I mean, eventually that'll become a thing too, I'm sure. But, you know, I don't know. You're right about one thing for sure. And I've thought about this too, and I think it's a real thing because Durant is different and then he's hard to figure out. But the one thing that we could kind of project onto him is he definitely wants to show people again that he can be the number one guy somewhere because he feels like he doesn't get enough credit. And it's a weird thing. I think you've got two straight finals MVPs and maybe you're getting plenty of credit.

I don't understand the credit thing, but that's how he feels. If he thinks that he has to go somewhere and prop up another organization, especially one like the Knicks that hasn't done anything in a very long time, maybe that is an allure. Maybe the cushion you have by already having multiple titles and a regular season MVP and finals MVPs, maybe it gives you the freedom to do whatever the heck you want and not worry about legacy. Yeah. Um. But I also don't

like I say, I also don't think you go into it thinking it's okay to be on a middling team. I mean, every one of these guys thinks they can make a contender just by themselves. But the reality is, you don't. But here's the thing. He was in that situation.

And he had to carry a team that wasn't that good. And he did it for a few years and he didn't like it. He, he wanted to be on a, he wanted a higher level of basketball. And I did, I did five podcasts with him.

That was a recurring theme in all of them. And I just, this is why I think it's important. And this is why, you know, it's November and there's a million topics going on and somehow we're talking about this, but you know, I think they have a chance a million topics going on and somehow we're talking about this, but you know,

I think they have a chance to be a dynasty and like a real one, like where they could win like five or six straight titles. For me, that's, that would Trump any other possibility. If I'm the war that if he stays with the warriors, they do something just absolutely historic. Yeah.

They could win. I think they could honestly win five or six straight titles. So listen, if they, to me, Absolutely historic. Yeah. I think they could win. I think they could honestly win five or six straight titles. So. I mean, listen, if they, to me, three and four years is already dynasty. And if they win the third straight, absolutely they are. But to do something that no one's done since the 60 Celtics. Yeah. And for good reason.

I mean, that puts you in a whole other echelon and you'd think that would be attractive. I would at least want four, because now if I have four in a row, Shaq and Kobe didn't do that. Jordan's Bulls never did it. You're going down the line. Magic only won two in a row. You win four in a row.

You're going down in history now on the short list that's ever happened. The other thing is they're getting better, which I think matters. I think they're playing with a real joy this year. Some of the rules swung in their favor. The 14-second shot clock, I think, has been the most underrated rule change in a couple years.

You get these rebounds and the ball goes out of bounds. And like LeBron, I went to the Timberwolves-Laker game last night. There were two times when he forgot about the 14-second rule. And they got the ball after an offensive rebound. He's dallying around. All of a sudden, there's three seconds left in the shot clock. But there's a more frantic edge to the pace this year,

which I think for a team that operates in chaos and people forgetting that Klay Thompson's over in the corner. It's just how they play. It's perfect. And I could see them, I don't know. I just wouldn't leave that. There's no track record of anyone leaving a situation like that.

Here's the thing. I mean, just step back for a minute and consider the era that we're in, right? I've written about this at length. You've talked about it at length. It's a different time and these are different players in terms of the way that we're in. I've written about this at length. You've talked about it at length. It's a different time, and these are different players in terms of the way that they see their careers and their mobility.

We refer to this as the age of player empowerment. And so I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because it will hijack the whole conversation. But as you might recall, last year I wrote a column about Kyrie Irving leaving LeBron and my thought at the time, which I was not alone in this, was you're crazy to leave LeBron James. You're on a team that's going to the finals

every year. And a year later, and it's not just because I went and did the other story on Kyrie a few weeks ago as well, but just I think seeing what happened in Boston, talking to him a few weeks back for that story, I think seeing what happened in Boston, talking to him a few weeks back for that story, I'm more sympathetic to what he did now. Like I get it. Like, I understand like you're in a certain position in your career and then you go, okay, well, I've done this. What else can I do?

And you guys, they all have huge self-image and a need to have as much room to grow as possible. And if you're in that locker room with LeBron James and he sucks up all the oxygen, maybe you need to have as much room to grow as possible. And if you're in that locker room with LeBron James and he sucks up all the oxygen, maybe you feel like you just can't do it there. And so he did go to, obviously, a really stacked Celtics team, but he still did leave a team that was almost automatic in the conference finals every year and that always had a shot. And so I bring that up just to come back to the KD thing, which is, you know, to you and me, and when we're looking at it from a historical vantage point, you could be a part of a team that is one of the all-time greats,

and maybe the Warriors already are. But what if you could get a fourth, a fifth, a sixth title? Why wouldn't you want that? And they play this fantastic brand of ball, and everybody, like the atmosphere there. You talk about team culture. It's not just because they're winning. It's just the way that the atmosphere they've all created, all of them,

Steve, Bob Myers, the players, the ownership. Like, why would you ever want to leave that? It's a great place to live. Again, personal bias. I'm from the Bay Area. But still, like, so you and I can say that and say it would make absolutely no sense. But in Durant's mind mind maybe it's you know what chapter one was was oklahoma where i grew up and we we made a good run and we got to all

these conference finals we made one finals and then i got sick of rust and i decided to leave and play you know and then chapter two was winning championships and then chapter three is going to be go revive a moribund nix franchise or something. And LeBron has done chapters too, like Cleveland, Miami, Cleveland, LA. Each one has represented something different. And maybe that's the model for these guys now. This is the saddest chapter of the four for LeBron. He's on his fourth wife and he's just kind of married to the wife. Like, oh man, I got married again.

What am I doing? These new people I got to impress. Jeez. He married Lance Stevenson. So the Kyrie and JaVale. The Kyrie thing, though, is different because they lost before he left.

And LeBron in 2014 lost and then he left. We've never seen a guy win a title and then say, alright guys, I'll see you later. Thank you. Thanks. That you later. Thank you. Thanks, that was awesome. Thank you for my three titles in three years. I'm going to go play at another team now.

I feel like they have to lose. If they had lost to Houston last year even, it might have laid the groundwork a little bit more. The other thing that I think people are missing, everyone assumes KD is going to leave this year. There's a chance he doesn't. He might wait another year. You know, he might do another one year of the one-year opt-out because if I'm him,

I want to see what this whole San Francisco thing is going to feel like, right? Yeah. Doesn't he want to be there when they open that arena and that it's going to be the biggest, greatest, most unbelievable NBA arena ever built right in the city. You know, he lives in the city. I would kind of want to see what that felt like for a year before I left.

But also, you could then sit back and say, okay, what if I'm intrigued by New York, but I want to see Porzingis back first. You buy yourself a year to see what the Knicks are doing and whether they get somebody else. Maybe you wait for somebody else to plant their flag in Clipper land or with the Nets. You can see whether or not anybody else has, or how those teams have evolved.

Give yourself one more year before making that plunge. I could see that, but it's Durant. Who knows? The problem with the Clippers is that they'll never mean even 20% what the Lakers mean here. You're the black sheep brother, no matter how good you do. You're never going to matter.

It's a 50-year plan. The stuff Ballmer's doing that it's actually important and gives them a long-term chance is the stuff like what you wrote about in the piece about the public basketball courts with the Clippers logo, redoing hundreds of basketball courts in the extended LA area. Being entrenched in the community and trying to position yourself as the NBA team that belongs to the real people is a good move, but that's going to take 20 years to execute. I think it's not something that you do in a year. Yeah. It's kind of like when, when the Nets moved here to Brooklyn and it was, you know, they came in guns blazing and, you know, Procroft talking a

bunch of smack and putting up billboards and we're going to steal Knicks fans and all this. And listen, Brooklyn has a very distinct identity and there's two and a half million people here. It's the most populated borough, and people say, you know, they don't say they're from New York. They say they're from Brooklyn. Like, that's a real thing, and so conceptually,

it was kind of like the right idea. Like, you come here, and you should have your own fan base that's distinct because it's Brooklyn. It's not Manhattan. Yeah. But it doesn't really work that way. Like, you look at, you know,

Google trend heat maps or whatever else that show, like, where fans are, and Brooklyn is still, like, manhattan yeah but it doesn't really work that way like you look at like those you know google trend heat maps or whatever else that show like where fans are and brooklyn is still like 98 percent knicks fans or something it's because it just takes time because you have to do it organically and and like you know the the kids who are growing up here now that have always known that have always had barclays center there that have always had Barclays Center there, that have always had the Nets there in their backyard, and have always been able to buy a Brooklyn jersey, yeah, when they get older, maybe they're lifelong Nets fans and they raise more Nets fans.

But yeah, that takes generations. And in L.A., it's more complicated because it's not at some distinct borough or something, and if they're going to try to build the arena in Inglewood, I think that'll happen. It'll open in 2024 is the idea. But that's six years out. Yeah. And it'll still kind of feel like they're in Laker territory,

not in small part, because they will be literally like down the street from the Lakers old building. I have a theory on this. We're going to take a quick break. Let's talk about Roman. Let's face it, guys are terrible at taking care of their health. Studies show 70% of guys who experience erectile dysfunction don't get treated for it.

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And I think, I think the first time I could remember this happening was when LeBron and Wade signed with Miami and they're playing in Boston. There are all these dudes with heat jerseys and kids with heat jerseys. It's like, where, where are these people? Nobody's a heat fan.

Where are all these people coming from? And it was basically people just followed LeBron. And then when he went back to Cleveland, they followed him back to Cleveland. And now he's in the Lakers and he's probably pulled people there. But I've noticed this with my son and his friends. They're less likely to be like a Rams fan in LA

than they are to be an Odell Beckham fan or a Patrick Mahomes fan. They'll pick the player. Our generation, we're around the same age. You picked a team like you were getting married to somebody and that was it. It's like, I'm six years old. I'm marrying the Steelers. They're now my team.

I don't think people do that anymore. I think people jump around. I think it's like, oh, I like Westbrook. He's my new favorite. And you buy a Westbrook jersey. It's kind of all part of the same thing. The influence of fantasy sports,

daily fantasy. You can throw in Tinder in there. All the stuff. Postmates. It's just instant gratification. It's also YouTube and social media and League Pass. All of it.

You don't have to be wedded to the team that's in your city. You can watch any of them. So that's the case for Durant on the Clippers. If he comes here and there are Durant fans or it's the new cool thing and maybe people are a little tired of LeBron and whatever.

Yeah. It's weird to watch him in person this year. I did know that. That was the first time I'd seen him in person this year. He's definitely detached. He's also perfectly capable of putting up a triple-double and having 27, 10, and 9 and making two of the three biggest plays of the game. As you're like, ah, is he really into this?

There's just never been a player, a non-center who could do that, right? Where you're watching, you're like, ah, does he care? Does he care about this tonight? And then he's putting up giant stats. But I think it's going to take some time. I think the Laker fans, you could feel it in the stands.

He's not really their guy. Now, I saw this happen with the Celtics with KG and Ray Allen that year when all of a sudden we had these guys on our team and they weren't really our guys yet. But it's the team, you're rooting for them. It really wasn't until 2010 that they really started to feel like our guys. Do you think LeBron will ever feel like my guy if I'm a Laker fan? It's a really interesting question because on some level you think,

oh God, you've got one of the best players, arguably the greatest of all time, however people want to split that debate. But like an all-time great, you should embrace him immediately. And if he had gone almost anywhere else, I don't think you and I would have this discussion. Like you wouldn't have to ask the question. Like if he had decided,

if he had chosen the Memphis Grizzlies, the Grizzlies are like, yep, we're all in. LeBron's our guy. Yeah. The Lakers and Laker fans are just different. And I thought, you know, listen, we don't know who kept defacing the LeBron mural.

That could have just been just some guy who's just an asshole. It doesn't matter whether he was like a Kobe fan or not. He could just be like a general, you know, jerk who just likes defacing graffiti or defacing murals. But it's the other stuff. It's the fact that there are still all these like hardcore Kobe fans who never wanted to accept the possibility that LeBron was better. It's an L.A. media that I think has has treated LeBron was better. It's an LA media that I think has,

has treated LeBron with a certain amount of like distance. I don't mean it like I'm not, I'm not accusing anybody of anything. It's just, I don't, I'm not sure like even the media was like all all in on like, wow, the Lakers just made it LeBron because no one's impressed there. They're not impressed because they had Kobe and Shaq and Magic and Kareem. It's different. And so some of those weird interactions between LeBron and LA Media in the first week, I just

thought were fascinating. Obviously, I worked in that market for seven years. And so I understood why they asked certain questions like, how long do you think it will take before Laker fans, what was the verb? Was it embrace you or whatever it was? And LeBron was just put off, like, what are you talking about? Because in his career, there's never been any doubt about what Cleveland would feel about him or Miami would feel about him. And again, if he had gone anywhere, you know, Charlotte, somewhere, it would have been automatic,

all-in, complete investment emotionally by the fan base. Well, part of it was how he handled it, though, because the press conference, everything was intentionally done to show the proper respect to everybody in Cleveland, I think. But everything was so stripped

down. And now that he's here, same thing. the proper respect to everybody in Cleveland, I think, but everything was so stripped down, you know? And now that he's here, same thing. And it's weird. Like you think about when he, when him and Wade and Bosh all went to Miami, what that meant to Miami and how those fans embraced him. Like those guys, those fans were all in on those three dudes,

that whole city. It was like, they kind of own the city. And that just hasn't happened here with LeBron and the Lakers. He is the first guy that I can remember coming to this team where it feels like he's his own brand. You know, Kobe, who, you know, was one of the 10 best players ever and was certainly one of the most famous basketball players ever. It always felt like he was intertwined with the Lakers. And when Shaq left the Lakers,

before and after Shaq were on the Lakers, it never felt like he was as big as when he was on the Lakers, you know? You go down the line, every famous guy they've had, being a Laker was part of what made them so great and memorable and famous. And LeBron is the first guy that's, doesn't matter that he's on the Lakers. Whatever team he's on, he's going to have that impact, which is really unusual.

It's just a weird situation. There's a weird vibe to it. I'm not saying it's a bad vibe, but it's definitely strange. And he's playing with these dudes now who are a generation and a half removed from him. I actually like their team. I like a lot of the young guys. The only guy I don't like is Caldwell Pope. I think he's awful. But I do like their young

guys and it does feel like he could have a dramatic impact on them. And I'm waiting to see how it plays out. To me, it's the most fascinating day-to-day story we have. I think the other one piece of it, Bill, that is significant and it seems obvious, but he's 33 going on 34 in December.

He's won championships. Everything that LeBron could possibly be, he already is. So it's not like, I don't want to compare him to Pau Gasol, but even when you get Pau Gasol in LA, it's like, here's this guy who's put up a lot of numbers and he's been toiling on this team in memphis never really done anything and he's really really good but we don't know what is what his ultimate heights could be and now he now pal becomes pal in la there's nothing more for lebron to become in la that he isn't already and so i think for for fans when they're embracing a guy, when they're investing in a guy emotionally, a lot of it is like, I claim you as my guy, because when you do great things now, it's like, see, I knew I always knew like, and this organic kind of, you know, you, you grow together as, as fan and, and, and player LeBron is everything

about him is always fully realized. There's nowhere to go, but, but flat or down. And it's true. It's almost like he's trying to protect, he's trying to protect his pot, you know, like, and get like his poker is stack of poker chips. It's like, I just don't want to lose any chips right now. But, but also Bill, he, like, I don't think he's like,

he, he can't actually even lose the chips. Like the pot is in front of him. And no matter what happens, the pot's still in front of him. Like if he never wins a championship with the Lakers, it'll be considered a disappointment for the Lakers and for their fans. It's not going to change how I don't think history views LeBron.

He's secure. And because of that, I think that's part of why there's that bit of an emotional disconnect. I think what he's been able to do this year coming off the broken hand in the finals has been really amazing. It's really, really awe-inspiring

to watch. What happened to the possibly broken hand? Nobody's ever mentioned it again. We're going to watch. What happened to the possibly broken hand? Nobody's ever mentioned it again. We're going to pretend it never happened? It's just gone? It's just gone? Nobody's brought it up? Are we not allowed to talk about it?

He showed up after game four. He had a huge thing in his hand. He said it was possibly broken. That was a weird night. It's gone? God. Yeah. What a straight. And you knew. you knew ahead of time

I did you heard you got in a window I blindsided Zach yeah it was pretty persistent rumor going around but I never know you know what to believe

hey you had something in your story today about the Clippers which is something that I think Ryan Rosillo yeah Ryan Rosillo was the first person

who mentioned this to me and I think we talked about it on his podcast. But then I saw it in your piece. And you were reporting that one for a few weeks there about how there's a perception now that free agents don't want to play with LeBron James. They don't want to be the tubs to his Crockett. They're good.

They'd rather be on their own team. They don't want to be in his little world, his little LeBron volcano. They're good. They'd rather be somewhere else. What did your information slash reporting yield on that? I'm just still smiling at the tubs. I did that just for you. on that. I'm just still smiling at the Tubbs Crocodile.

I did that just for you. In the wake of the Miami Heat rolling out their Miami Vice uniform. Topical. It's good stuff. Did you see the video they did with Phil Collins in the air tonight? They did a serious Miami Vice stroke. I loved everything. I loved the

scoreboard looked great. I thought the uniforms were a home run. It went all the way the scoreboard looked great. I thought the uniforms were a home run. I was a win all the way around. It was great. Yeah. So, does anybody want to be Crockett to LeBron's Tubbs? Or is it Tubbs to Crockett?

I don't even, like, who was the alpha there? Oh, Crockett's alpha. 100%. He had his own speedboat. How are you not the alpha?

And he had the cool half beard. He did. He was the one driving the Ferrari and he had a speedboat cool half beer he was the one driving the the ferrari and he had a speedboat i give him alpha status here's here's the weirdest memory i have related to miami vice is that when when when uh when he had like the beer like it was it was like the two-day gross beer right the shadow stubble that was a new thing yeah at that time yeah the stubble thing that as a constant look that where it never got any any any longer that was a new thing at that time. The stubble thing that as a constant look that were never gotten any, any longer, that was a new thing back then. And I specifically remember at some point,

like I don't know, it was the sharper image catalog or something. Somebody came out with something called the Miami device. And that was, it was because I think back then they didn't have like the clippers like we have now where you can shave your beard to the same length every day. The Miami device was brilliant. brilliant. It was great. I didn't need it because I could barely grow a beard back then, but yeah, Crockett's beard was always perfectly two-day, whatever. So what's your stuff yield? So here's

the thing. I don't have a definitive answer on that. There are perceptions out there. I'm not sure if there's any truth out there. If we look at Kyrie leaving LeBron, there were specific circumstances there. If we look at Paul George, not going to join LeBron, Paul, Paul George fell in love with Russell Westbrook, you know, like that, like he spent a year with him and decided, I love this guy. I don't want to leave. And that, I don't think that was as much a reflection on LeBron as it was a reflection on

Paul George's changing priorities and just the, the connection he felt with, with Westbrook and with Oklahoma. Like, I think sometimes we're drawing too fast of a conclusion from these things and like, well, you know, it took two or three to make a trend and suddenly that's it. Like who else could have gone there that chose not to? And, and aside from Kyrie, and that's a pretty big aside from, but has anybody else like actively sought to distance themselves from LeBron? Like, I, I do think that, you know, you were, you know, you're buying into, into, um, a certain set of parameters in terms of like LeBron kind of running the show and LeBron taking up a lot of oxygen in the room and a lot of the offense. So I think that could be off-putting for some guys. I think it'd be off-putting for Jimmy Butler.

I think that Durant, having always seen himself as LeBron's equal, probably doesn't want to go join him. Kawhi is the weird one. That's the hard one to figure out, because Kawhi is impossible to figure out. But I could see Kawhi joining LeBron. Kawhi doesn't want to be the one every night out there having to explain what went right or what went wrong. He doesn't want to talk at all if he can avoid it.

So I feel like he's one who could certainly go there. Does a fully recovered and healthy DeMarcus Cousins go play with LeBron? Yeah, I could see that. So I don't know. The anonymous quote I had from the rival GM basically saying guys don't want to be playing sidekick to LeBron. I think that's not a unique perception. So when a team exec who's been around a long time says that, I pay it heed.

I just don't know if we can apply that across the board or assume anything where it regards next summer. I think that thing that would be tough to deal with is if the team wins and does well, LeBron gets all the credit. And if it doesn't do well, it's everyone else's fault. And I do think players notice that. It's almost like

a no-win situation unless you actually win. Kevin Love, who you could really do a documentary on his four years in Cleveland, but I saw him after they won probably, I saw him whenever they played the Knicks the next year, and he was still so happy about it. He didn't seem like he would have traded anything. All the heartache and all the ups and downs and everything that came with playing with LeBron,

it was all worth it when they actually won. And he felt so vindicated and filled out by it. But now you think, looking back, I wonder how he feels. Was that one title worth all the other stuff that came with it? I would think he'd say yes. I don't know. Me too. I also think that over the years, and don't know, but I also think that, I also think that, um,

you know, over the years, and there've been many stories, you know, written on this subject, I think actually you guys just had one, um, where it's players talking about what it's like to play with LeBron, whether you're an all-star, whether you're a role guy that there's always, it's different. It takes adjusting in a, in a, in a way that maybe doesn't with everyone else, but, you know, listen, it would take a huge adjustment to go play with Russell Westbrook for just about anybody in the NBA. Like almost every superstar, especially high-usage type stars, it's going to be an adjustment to go play with them. I don't think this is some reflection on like some defect in LeBron James.

It's just more just like this is just what his game is and what he's capable of and what that means for a team structurally. You've got to go figure it out if you're going to go there. And you could go somewhere else and have it all be yours. Like if Durant picks the Clippers, he's not adjusting to anybody. They're adjusting to him. If Durant picks the Knicks or the Nets, frankly, it's all about him. The other scenario, the Clippers say they have a pretty clear path to, or a fairly easily created path to two max slots. And if they do that, if they do that, then now you can pitch

the, you know, the team up, you know, concept. You can say, you know, Hey, look, Durant, come here with Kawhi, Kawhi, come here with Durant. Jimmy and Durant. Whatever it is. That's another card they can play, but it's also a card the Nets can play. That's what's so fascinating. We've never had this bill. Both LA and both New York teams all with at least one max slot,

and two of them with potentially two max slots all going head-to-head for what will not be enough free agents among them. I mean, that's going to be fascinating. Well, then on top of it, all the teams that aren't in that desirable mix who also think they're in this, I enjoy that too. Like Brooklyn. Look, yeah, it's Brooklyn.

All right. What else? What else you got? We got Karis LeVert. Jared Allen. Okay. What else you got we got Karis LeVert Jared Allen okay what else you got I just think ultimately it's going to be really hard to

compete against the Clippers who else is going to have cap space the Knicks will have at least one I think the Bulls might have the Bulls have the Bulls messed up organization though I wouldn't want to go there but I think there Bulls might have... The Bulls messed up organization though. I wouldn't want to go there. But I think there's like

15 teams. I don't know. We are with these shorter contracts now. And especially with guys willing to bet on themselves with these one-in-a-year, two-in-a-year. We're just doing this year after year after year now. But now everybody's getting smarter at having cap space.

I just think this is going to just be this Bugs Bunny thing where we're just going to be doing a circle over and over again. I do wonder though, if the Knicks, the one thing for me to watch with the Knicks, the red flag

is if they trade hard away over the next six weeks. They can get rid of that contract, which, by the way, I like the way Tim Hardaway is playing. And I look at a team like Utah, and if Utah could just get him for expirings, you know, it's like Alec Burks

and one other expiring they have. And they could add Hardaway. I actually think he would play crunch time for them. And I think he has shown the ability to be a heat check guy in certain games, but he can stretch the floor, he can create his own shot. He brings some stuff to

the table. And I could see a contender talking themselves into him. And if that happens, then look out. Because then the Knicks would have two spots, right? Or very close to two. Yeah, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I mean, you know, he's 18 million or so. And so if you, if you could dump him, yeah, you're, but you're right. The interesting part is if they do it,

if they're telegraphing something, it means that they think they've got, you know, then again, you know, years ago, you know, Donnie Walsh dumped, you know, Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph and everybody. And they, you know, of course, that was a two year thing. Like they were dumping those guys two years away from when they could possibly chase LeBron. And, you know, and they got Amari. But, you know, I mean, nobody ever. Listen, it was what needed to happen anyway, to be honest.

Like it was still the right move. Like getting LeBron or not getting LeBron. Getting cap room and flushing that whole era was the right thing for them to do. Were you covering, were you there for the whole Isaiah era? Yeah. I mean, almost all of it, yeah. We were arguing in the Ringer NBA Slack about this, and it was getting heated because, you know,

the years pass, I think people forget, and that there's been this revisionist history now where people go, well, you know, the years pass. I think people forget. And that there's been this revisionist history now where people go, well, you know, Isaiah really was a good drafter. You know, like that. He wasn't that bad. If you remember, he really knew how to draft players. I was like, yeah, he actually was that bad. He was the worst GM.

He made some of the worst, most inexplicable moves of, of this century. And I really hope, I really hope there's no other legacy than that. You were there for it though. I was, I was there for almost all of it. I got here, like he was hired in like December of 2003 and I got to New York in like the next, the next fall in 2004. So I was here for most of it. Um, there is some revisionist history, um revisionist history that goes on with that. There's no question. And now you're making me long for your fake bad GM summit.

The atrocious GM summit. Those were a blast. Yeah, he is bad. It seems like there's less you know, you use the word like fishes to reel in. There's less fish teams than there used to be. but there's still, we have a few, you know, there's probably five.

The league has gotten a lot smarter in the last 10 years, like a lot smarter. And, you know, whether it's, whether it's not giving away draft picks, whether it's not, you know, giving out crazy contracts and like every team, you know, even the good teams occasionally like make a mistake, but, um, but, but no one's just like playing with funny money the way that like the Knicks used to, or, um, yeah, teams have gotten smarter. Or compounding the mistake. Like the, even like the Sacramento,

it's like trading the future pick to get rid of contracts so they can then sign Rajon Rondo. I don't even feel like that stuff is going to really happen anymore. Because the backlash with your fan base, the stuff leaks out. All these trades leak out before they happen now. And the backlash can actually end up squashing a couple of the disasters. And also, by the way, credit to the fan bases. Because we've all gotten,

we media and fans, everybody's gotten smarter about the cap and about picks and the value of things and analytics, whether people fully buy in or not, it has changed the way that we talk about all this stuff. And so people understand fans value, value. They, they, they understand what value is. They understand what the value of that unused, even second round pick is that, hey, sometimes you ace one of those, or hey, if you have a couple of them, they're currency and you don't just throw them away. And so if the fans are that much more intelligent about it, it means that the backlash can be that much greater or the pressure is that much greater on the organization to do the right things in the first place. And yeah, it'd be funny to think about, like, if we look at the Rondo,

uh, or the, the, the King's trade to clear the cap room for Rondo as, as one of the most heinous, um, you know, series of moves in recent history, like how long will it take before we get to the next one of those? Will there be one? I mean, they're always going to be something probably, but that was like dumb on its face as it happened. We knew it in real time and it turned out exactly as bad as we thought it was. I was talking to somebody yesterday about the

2009 draft when the Grizzlies were going to, it seemed like they were going to take the beat second and we knew it was a bad idea, but Twitter wasn't really, social media wasn't what it was yet. And it just went down this path and then they ended up taking him.

And what people remember from that draft now is David Kahn, back-to-back point guards, but somehow not taking Steph Curry. And everybody glosses over the part that three picks earlier, Minnesota took, I'm sorry, Memphis took the beat second over, who was in that draft?

Was it, was it Harden? Harden and Curry. They took the beat over Harden and Curry. And somehow we make fun of David Kahn more than Chris Wallace. Oh my God. I think that's probably your fault, right?

Cause you've been the, yeah, that's true. I did. Well, I was, I was so outraged that, that, probably your fault, right? Because you've been the... Yeah, that's true. Well, I was so outraged. And then the Knicks coming one pick away from Curry and not getting him. It's just classic Knicks.

Mike D'Antoni was heartbroken. I was still covering the team then, too, of course. Mike D'Antoni was heartbroken. And they ended up with Jordan Hill, one pick before DeMar DeRozan. They could have had DeRozan. And look, in fairness, DeRozan wasn't this DeRozan for many years. It took a DeRozan. And look, like, in fairness, DeRozan wasn't just DeRozan

for many years. Like, it took a long time. True. Like, he still got there to his credit. And, like, so you're still better off being the team that drafted him.

But the guy that Knicks fans were most apoplectic about not taking was Brandon Jennings. And then, like, Jennings dropped that, like, the 55-point game the one night. And, you know, and, like, where is he now?

But this is, which is why, like, I always say we don't, we shouldn't judge these drafts. Like, never, That's like the 55-point game the one night. And where is he now? Which is why I always say we shouldn't judge these drafts. Never the snap judgments on year one or even year two of these guys. We just don't know. It takes a while. But you're right. The Grizzlies, I think that was still Chris Wallace, they should be getting much more heat over Hashim to beat than even David Kahn gets for taking two straight picks

that were not Steph Curry. Yeah, I do think 10 years later, I think that he gets bullied into not doing that pick because it would have just been a thing on social media for a week leading up to it. There just was less media back then, and now there's so much of it, and there's so much content and so much information. I also think it's changed to some degree. It's such an arms race now and you're in it.

You're one of the many people that you've had a really good career and you're competing against all these other people for access and sources and stories and all that. Meanwhile, the players and the teams have gotten so much smarter about doling out that access. And, you know, if you get superstar X calls, their team calls you and like,

Hey Howard, we're, we'd love, uh, we'd love to give you some time. Superstar X wants, uh, is,

is excited to do a fee. You know, we want to get a feature out like it. You're suspicious immediately. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and there's, you know, we want to get a feature out. Like it, you're suspicious immediately, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and there's, you know, that, that it's a whole sticky subject, obviously, is

all the inside baseball stuff on this about, you know, relations and how they go between, you know, media members and agencies and, and all this stuff. But I do think that, yeah, they're controlling more of it. It used to be that you wanted to get a player, you know, pick any all-star in the league, you know, the year, you know, 2002 or something, pick any all-star in the league, and you want to talk to that guy. You go to the PR person for that team, like the actual NBA team,

and you say, hey, you know, I'd like some time with whoever, and, you know, can we work it out? Now there are guys who, like, if you want anything from them at all, beyond the five minutes after practice or something, you're having to go through their agencies these days. And some of them very firmly so. And yeah, those agencies are picking and choosing where they're sending their guys and when they're going to dole out access. And why? And what is the reason for the access? Because they have a new shoe coming out? Or because there's some narrative they want to dispel,

and now you're part of this three-pronged thing where we're putting this guy out there for these three interviews, and we're trying to accomplish this. And I don't know. It's just different. It, it, it is. And you have to make, make judgment calls and you have to decide like, is the access worth, if, if there's a trade-off, I'm not, I like, I don't do quid pro quo. I just, like, I'm not going to go there. And so if somebody says, listen, if you, um, you know,

give a big pop to his new shoe in the third paragraph, or if you spend like at least 50%, no, like that. No, sorry. I would rather not interview anybody than ever agree to anything like that. It just like, just creeps me out. These guys are, I mean, the fact that they're much savvier about what they want from you has to make the job a little more, more difficult. It can. You know, I feel like in general, like just access over the

last, you know, I've been doing this as my 22nd season now access has gotten, you know, harder all the time. Um, day-to-day stuff as well as like the, the more, you know, um, extensive sit down type stuff, because there's so many more people who have their hands on these guys, you know, advisors and PR people and people and you know image consultants and whatever yeah and they're all hyper conscious of everything which is why i'm like so glad to see somebody like joelle mb who just doesn't like trust me like he's not somebody you can just get either but i do like the fact that he's not worried about image he's not worried about what he says or how it's taken or anything. He's just himself. Now, maybe somebody can say,

well, that is the image. Maybe he cultivated that. Maybe that was the whole idea. I don't know. But it felt like for a long time, NBA players were being so safe. There just weren't that many guys who ever said anything interesting. Never mind. It doesn't have to be controversial, but I just want honesty. You just want candor.

For a long time, it felt like everybody had just gotten so safe. And I do feel like it started to move back the other direction a little bit, but there's still like, there's a lot of guys, like, we don't really know anything about, obviously, you know, Kawhi is one guy. James Harden is another guy, you know, certainly Westbrook, obviously, who has no need for the media whatsoever. I feel like LeBron's like that. What do we really know about LeBron? We know what he wants us to know. Yes. But I think that that's always been the case.

Like you could like, it's always the case where any, any player, any politician, any musician, any actor, when they sit down, a lot of it is only what they want you to know because they're,

they're smart enough to know how to, to, to frame it. But as long as there's some truth in there, as long as it feels genuine, it, you know, there's always going to be pieces that they leave out. That's fine. Um, they're not going to tell you everything, but it's, it's whether the stuff that they do say is, is true and sincere and, and resonates. And so what I'll say in, in LeBron's defense on this one is among guys, his level, and really there isn't anybody his level,

but even if we're just talking about all All-Stars, which is a very large range to go from LeBron all the way down to the 12th All-Star or the 24th All-Star, among All-Stars of the last 10 years or whatever, I don't know that anybody's been more accessible and, um, you know, approachable. And that wasn't the case early in his career. He was the opposite of approachable early in his career. And then something happened in Miami being around Wade winning the championship, that kind of freeing him to be himself, whatever it was like when you talk to him, all right, you, we can always be cynical about what he's, how he's framing things or what he's holding back. The fact that he still, he says a lot and he, and he says things that, that, that do resonate

and that do feel true and that are coming from the heart and whether that's the political stuff and, and concerns about society at large, or whether it's the basketball, like he's, he's pretty approachable, pretty candid. Um, and, and I think as a result, like that makes him more endearing than a lot of these guys. Like, yeah, I guys. I'll take him a thousand times over Russell Westbrook or

James Harden and it's nothing against them. It's just that I don't know that the questions are worth asking if you know in advance that they've already decided that they're not going to answer anything. That's why I love doing those pods with Durant because I do think he's a genuine guy.

He's just like, here are my answers. There is no edit button at all, which was awesome. No, he talks about the opposite of somebody who's, he's the opposite of overmanaged. There have been times in his podcast where people were going, oh, shit, did he really just say that? Yeah, man, what are you doing, Kevin? Yeah. Yeah, why did he do that? I mean, shit, I was saying it.

I was interviewing him, but the great thing, Bill, is that here we are all this time later, however long it's been since any number of those, he's fine. No, like he's no worse for it. Like it just shows like the PR folks and the agents,

everybody, they overthink this stuff. Durant is no worse off for having done your podcast while drinking wine. No, I actually think, I think it really helped him in some ways, you know, because it was at this point when people were having a hard time trying to figure him out and what his motivations were. Now I think he's scaled it back a little.

You know, the one I was really surprised, I thought Kyrie was really good on my pod, the interview I did with him. I thought I liked how candid he was. He was just really smart. But the one that surprised me, I think the most, although I wasn't that surprised because I had a feeling it was going to play out that way, but just I was

glad that he was so candid was Curry this summer. Curry is just really comfortable in his own skin. I just think he really enjoys his life and his career and he put a lot of work and is just really comfortable in his own skin. You know? And he's, I just think he really enjoys his life and his career and he put a lot of work

and time and energy into it. I think he's a real basketball fan, which makes him a little, KD's a little like this too, where those guys just love basketball. They grew up watching it and they actually have

real opinions on things. And it does seem like this generation of players also kind of grew up as fans They have real opinions on things. And it does seem like this generation of, uh, of players also kind of grew up as fans in almost a different way. Like they were able to see more basketball because of league pass, more games on cable, YouTube,

all this stuff. They just had more material to watch, I guess. Well, and they can also, and they can also see all the guys who, who predated their, their,

their lifespan. You can go to YouTube and you can, you can watch Larry Bird and you can watch, I guess. Well, and they can also, and they can also see all the guys who, who predated their, their, their lifespan. Yeah. You can go to YouTube and you can, you can watch Larry Bird and you can watch, you know, Bill Russell and you can watch any,

I think you could just go back and, and so they could be that much more in tune with the roots of the game. God, when I was doing my book, almost none of that stuff was on. I used to have to get DVDs

of games from the NBA and by like 2000, I don't know, 13 or 14, everything was on. I used to have to get DVDs of games from the NBA and by like 2000, I don't know 13 or 14, everything was on. And now it's like everything's on. I mean, there's, you go, you could Google like Bernard King 1983 and there'll be like entire games against the Nuggets or something. It's like

who's putting this on? You know, it's amazing. I took too much of your time, Howard Beck. This was great though. We hadn't done in a while. Yeah, no, it time, Howard Beck. This was great, though. We hadn't done it in a while. Yeah, no, it had been too long. This was fun. Check out his story on the clips. It's really good. It's really interesting. I learned

a lot. I felt like I knew a lot about the clips, but there's a couple nuggets in there, too. Like, Balmer kind of, for lack of a better phrase, threw Doc under the bus at one point and said he was like a middleman with some of the stuff they're trying to do. There was some gold buried in that story. It was pretty good.

I enjoyed it. Yeah, he was pretty candid. He really is. He was like that when I did the pod with him too. You could see the people that he brings with them are kind of like, oh, oh, oh, Steve's going. Oh God.

Thanks for doing this. This was fun. Plug your podcast, by the way. Oh God. Uh, thanks for doing this. So this is fun. Plug your podcast by the way. Yeah. Uh, the full 48, uh, publishes usually every Monday. Uh, one with Richard Jefferson up right now. I got Grant Hill is on the next one coming this Monday. He was a blast. Uh, and so yeah, check it out. Great. Grant Hill, by the way,

I saw him a month ago and he told me about Zion. I mean, I knew obviously design's not a secret, but he was like, he said, I went to a Duke practice and Zion's incredible. And I just can't believe what I just saw. It was basically like a scouted report. He was like, I just can't. I like the phrase. He told me about Zion by just, just by hearing that it just sounds like something really deep and mystical. Yeah. Like some new, uh, some new company that's coming out with a new thing. Yeah, but he was just like, this guy's... People have no idea. This guy's...

He's 300 pounds and he's light on his feet and he can jump over everybody. Like, people are going to be blown away. And I was like, okay, Grand Hill. I trust you. You were good at basketball. Yeah. Anyway, thank you, Howard.

Thanks, Bill. Appreciate it, man. All right. All right, we're going to call Robert Mays and talk about NFL with him. But first, Allbirds is dedicated to making stylish, comfortable footwear using premium natural materials

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All right, let's talk to our old friend, Robert Mays. Hi, Robert Mays is here from TheRinger.com. I'm here. This is great. Formerly of Grantland. RIP. Sad times. These are happy times, though.

I like, these are really happy times. Very happy times. I like, we're heading into very close to mid-November. We're like a week away from mid-November. And that's when I feel like football starts to make sense. It totally starts to make sense. But I think the cool part about this season is we haven't needed a game

to save this season. It's been fun the whole way through. Remember two years ago, I was just talking about this, when we had that Cowboys-Steelers game and everyone was like, God, we needed that game so bad because football sucks.

Right. That has not been necessary this year. It's been very fun, but yes, we haven't learned everything we need to necessarily. And I do think that's what's happened over the next two weeks. You know why it's fun this year? Because

they basically eliminated defense. Yeah, I know. That's not really great for my team, but for the entertainment sake of the league, it is fun. What's weird is that it still hasn't translated to success for some of the younger quarterbacks. Like who? Like all the new guys? Sure. I thought you were going to

make a Mitch Trubisky joke and I was going to read you off some stats. Your Mitch Trubisky thing is misguided and hilarious. And also admirable. I don't think Mitch Trubisky is a good quarterback. I think that he has been as successful as he possibly could be in this offense. So do you buy there's a whole thing online about whether he's getting better or not? Dan Orlovsky was tweeting about it. Yeah.

Because he did a clip. I do think that he has not made many of the same mistakes twice, but the mistakes that he does make are pretty horrendous. Yeah. The only, he missed one throw, he misses this throw all the time,

and it's Taylor Gabriel coming from right to left over the middle of the field. Right. He's air-mailed that a couple times. The throw against Seattle where he spun out and threw it to the pylon was terrible. The one where he threw it back across his body against Miami. They're all just as

bad as the last one, but they're all different. So I guess you could rationalize it that way. I like when he has to ad-lib. That's when hilarity usually ensues. The problem is that his ad-libbing as a runner has been part of his value this year, so you have to kind of take the good with the bad. Yeah.

I guess when he has to throw ad-lib, it reminds me of my son's played flag football year. His team's pretty good. They run these plays. Are we, are we really getting into this? No, no.

Are we going to compare Ben's teams and Mr. Trubisky? I'm going to bring this around. So every play, the quarterback runs over to the sideline to get the play for the coach and goes back in. And then they run the play. Exactly.

There's no freelance ad lib ability at all. And if anything goes wrong, it completely falls apart right away, which is kind of like watching Mitch Trubisky when he, the first three seconds, it's like, I'm going to roll out to the right. My tight end is going to be there and I'm going to throw it to him.

He can do that. But if the tight end's covered, he has and I'm going to throw it to him. He can do that. But if the tight end's covered, he has to take a step back and then be like, oh shit, now I should find somebody else. That's when hilarity ensues. It's not a good thing when your quarterback either needs to hit his first read or nothing happens. So that's why when- Well, he runs. He does what Bortles does. Exactly. So typically that's a bad thing considering the... Think about the comparison you just made because it means he's not

a very mentally developed quarterback. But in his case, I'd almost rather have him pull the ball down and run because then he can't throw it to the other team. Right. It's been okay.

They're the 10th ranked defense in the league by DVOA right now. In the league with him. It's been as good as it could be. I was going to give you Super Bowl ads. That's why I was looking at my phone. 40 to 1. I think we should pump the brakes on that.

We'll see. Maybe next year. Rams are plus 350. The Saints are getting a lot of love walking into a nice little trap game in Cincinnati this weekend. I brought you on to do picks, but I did want to talk about

the Super Bowl kind of picture because I think we have to start thinking about it. I totally agree. This is the time. The Saints, this is, it's weird to say this because it's only week 10, but I think if you're a Super Bowl team, you win this stupid game in Cincinnati this week.

You're banged up. You're coming off a great win. Now you're outdoors. It's a must win for Cincinnati. The Saints are favored by five and a half. There's a lot of red flags, enough that I would not pick them. But it's a take care of business game. I'm with you on this.

If you're going to go 14 and two, you're going to get a one seed or a two seed or fight for the one seed to the bitter end. You win this game. So two weeks ago, two weeks ago, three weeks ago when they went to Baltimore. Yeah. I wrote this. We talked about it with Kevin on the podcast. That's the type this game. So two weeks ago two weeks ago three weeks ago when they went to Baltimore. Yeah. I wrote this we talked about it with Kevin on the podcast. That's the type of game

this Saints team in this Sean Payton Drew Brees era used to lose. You'd go on the road you'd play against a really tough defense you're outside

that's the game that your offense plays ugly and you don't pull it out. They won that game and that's impressive. So let's think about it through the Cincinnati lens now. You're going on the road

you're playing outside you're playing outside, you're playing against the Bengals who have not a good defense necessarily. And everything that the Bengals need to beat this Saints team, they don't have right now. Carl Lawson's out for the season, their best outside pass rusher. The teams do not get interior pressure against the Saints.

So Geno Atkins is probably not going to be the factor he normally is. If that pass rush isn't real, their secondary breaks down and it's not going to be real against he normally is if that pass rush isn't real their secondary breaks down and it's not going to be real against Drew Brees and they've gotten torched by some teams this year

I would really want to take them and I looked at their their results for the year and I was like oh man their secondary is not good when their pass rush isn't controlling games they have a really hard time

stopping the pass but I think they have a chance to be the good bad team I think so too because their offense is feisty here's the problem with their offense though

no AJ Green he was having the best season I've had I've seen him have with Andy Dalton Because their offense is feisty. Here's the problem with their offense, though. No AJ Green. He was having the best season I've seen him have with Andy Dalton. He was playing so well. They're starting to feed him targets. And now he's out for an indeterminate amount of time. So the element that you'd be able to take advantage of on the other side against New Orleans, which is hitting them over the top because their corners outside of Lattimore are trash.

Now that's gone. So it just feels like all the pieces of how this Bengals team could beat the Saints at home aren't there when you need them to be. Yeah, I'm not giving up on the Bengals, but this isn't the week to back them. No, it's certainly not. Five and a half is a lot for a decent team at home, but I still feel like every single way they would be able to beat the Saints team at 100% isn't there right now. I think the Saints, I feel kind of the best about right now

if I was in the bet my life situation for who's going to win the Super Bowl. And even though the Rams have made me a shitload of money this year, it just seems like you can move the ball on them. You can. And I think as it gets to January and that big magnifying glass starts going on golf a little bit more, and combined with the fact that their

defense doesn't get stops, I just would trust New Orleans more. Kansas City, that Andy Reid thing, I just can't get past. Kansas City on paper is the best pick, but how many times have we been here with Andy? I know. I just can't do it. I was saying to you yesterday, it's going to be, we're going to be watching round two. They're going to be favored by like 13 over the fucking Texans or whoever they're playing.

And they're going to be, they're going to have a 20 to six lead. And then all of a sudden, the other team's going to come back and we'll be like, oh my God, Andy, he's doing it again. I just can't get past it. I can't, the scars have not healed.

It just seems like if they play the Pats, it's going to be one of those games that whoever has the ball last wins. The exact same way it was when they played the first time. And even if it's an arrowhead, I just don't trust their ability to stop New England because the one thing that Chiefs defense has right now is Dee Ford is playing like a monster. And they get Justin Houston back.

Contract year, right? Yes, contract year, Dee Ford. And they get Justin Houston back. So that pass right? Yes, contract year, D4. Yeah. And they get Justin Houston back. So that pass rush has been necessary because their secondary is so terrible. You know, the Kendall floor is fine, but the rest of their corners are just atrocious. Who has a good secondary out of the good teams?

The Bears have a good secondary. Yeah. Bears have a good secondary. Who else? Baltimore has a good secondary. Baltimore secondary is pretty good. It's fine. Their corners are solid and their safeties are good.

I mean, their nickel corner is not as good. New England to solid and their safeties are good. I mean, there's nickel corner. Would you consider new England to have a good secondary? No. Decent. Mediocre. Stefan Goldberg is good. Devin McCourty is good. What else do you want?

We don't have a good second. No, there aren't many, but I think that the chiefs are particularly bad. And if you don't get a pass rush with, if you're the chiefs and you're not rushing the passer, you're not going to stop anybody. And against the Pats,

their offensive line is playing extremely well. Like, extremely well. Trent Brown has been one of the biggest moves of the entire season. It was great. I mean, obviously, Wynn would be there if he didn't get hurt, but that's why you need depth.

And when you can get it for free for a guy that's really talented, that's the type of shit Belichick does. It's not fair. Well, he almost made the Gronk to Detroit trade would have gone down in the Pantheon if he had pulled that up. What was the return on it? I think they were getting

a first round pick back. He's just not right, man. I think they were going to have three first round picks. It's so sad to watch. Listen, I'm way older than you. This is what happens to tight ends. I know. Tight ends and centers. I know. They pass a point and that's it. And all the miles just add up.

So how, I heard you said this to Kevin, and I would love for you to say this to me with a straight face. You think this is the worst group of weapons the Patriots have had in Tom Brady's tenure? That I can rely on in a playoff game? I would say it's the- You think the Rasheed Caldwell group- No, no. I'd say since 06.

Okay. Last 12 years. So let's be clear about this. I'd say since 06. Okay. Last 12 years. So let's be clear about this. I understand Gronk is not right and all of that. And Edelman's getting older and whatever. James White is really fucking good. He's a really good pass catching running back. He's been a huge for them.

He's good. Brady has a tendency to make a specific type of guy look awesome. But he's been the best version of it. I think he's better than Shane Vereen ever was right now. That's blasphemy. I'm standing by that. Also. Kyle, you agree with that?

No, I believe him. Also. I really like Shane Vereen. Also. Josh Gordon is on this team. I know, but that's the thing. I don't trust Josh Gordon. Okay, that's fine.

I don't trust Sonny Michel. He's been hurt twice already. Okay, cool. I don't trust Gronk. Sure, all right. I don't trust any of these guys. How many guys could have made that Josh Gordon on the sideline

catch that he made last week against Green Bay in the history of Brady's tenure? One? I'm trying to think if David Givens could have done it. David Givens could have done it.

That is a very good, that's a good one. Did you see the Belichick-Mike thing? Yes. And he had to ask Brady. I think he hates Brady. I really do. I really do. I've thought this forever. He really throws it to ask Brady. I think he hates Brady. I really do.

I've thought this forever. He really threw it to Josh there. It's like, yeah. Belichick legitimately wishes his quarterback was shitty. Or mediocre. He loved that four-game stretch without Brady so, so much. He loved it. It was his favorite thing. Parcells' favorite accomplishment

ever, I think, was almost making the Super Bowl with Testa Verde. Yes. And they're built the same, was almost making the Super Bowl a test of verity. Yes. And they're built the same way. Almost made the Super Bowl a test of verity. It was a couple years ago. I remember me and my buddy Ryan were joking about it. I remember when Welker got suspended and just like, Belichick was the red pen just crossing guys out.

He just loves keeping his really good players off the field in order to show people how freaking smart he is. It's his favorite thing. I think the potential of this team offensively is really good. I just look at it's a long game and I got to get

all of these guys to mid-January. I know. I know that's why you don't trust Josh Gordon. Cold weather, harder fields, injuries start to add up a little bit and I really hope the whole offense is just dumping it off to James White. That's why Gordon is so important though.

Because this field stretching thing, it matters. It matters so much. And you watch that game against Detroit. You're not getting me to, you're not roping me in with Josh Gordon. Every week we have him is a pleasure. It's great. We got Josh Gordon for another week.

I really appreciate it. I feel like he's the Airbnb of wide receivers your self-restraint right now is impressive you're really wisdom has kind of

crept up on you in your old age here he's we're renting him we're leasing him he's really good man he's really really good that catch was insane

he's like our swipe right receiver we swipe right we get a receiver for one more week this is great oh cool that play

watching it on that the Belichick mic thing was so fascinating for like 10 reasons every time that happens i'll watch it no you're the best aaron rogers that was amazing as an aaron rogers stand that was incredible but the how he's reciting the down and distance every single play to himself as just like situational situational situational he's just a robot 39 and 11 38 38 38 38. I love that. But then the replay that they had in that game, in that special of the feet that Gordon did to stay in balance while falling out of balance is nuts.

You shouldn't be able to do that physically. What about Belichick not reacting to any touchdown at all? What would you expect at this point? Just robot reactions. Like the Josh Gordon play was pretty exciting. Doesn't budge. It's a week nine game against the Packers. He doesn't give a shit.

He does not care. I fucking love Belichick. I hope he coaches until he's 100. He has no age because he's not a human. How old would he be in alien years? There's no way to determine it. His body's changed. He's definitely a little thicker. Sure.

He's doing that to throw you off the scent, though. That's exactly why. It'd be funny if him and Brady just refused to retire and it became a staring contest to see who could have one year without the other. Brady's 52. I want to see Belichick take a Turing test just to see if he's actually a human being

and not a computer. I really do. He's almost definitely a human being. Do you believe in the Chargers? Yes. Do you believe in them like they would make the Super Bowl, you believe in them? I picked them to go to the Super Bowl last week. Because they were my preseason pick, and as long as it's

in play, I feel like you should stick with it. You are the number one Phil Rivers Kool-Aid drinker that I know. I 100% am. He's one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. Kyle? I'm saying like in the top 10. Phillip Rivers is an incredible quarterback. I've seen some good quarterbacks. I don't know if he's in my top 10. I would saying like in the top 10. Phillip Rivers is an incredible quarterback. I've seen some good quarterbacks.

I don't know if he's in my top 10. I would put him in my top 10. I'd have to look at this. This would be a fun list for me to make on a podcast. You look at the list of, I mean, I know raw numbers aren't the thing that determines this. He's like sixth or seventh in yards all time,

sixth or seventh in touchdowns all time. I think he has 7.8 yards per attempt for his entire career. Maybe 7.5. It's really high. I mean, some of the seasons he's had, those mid-2000s teams, they had the number one passing offense in the league for like three or four straight years

by DVOA. He was averaging like 8.0 yards per attempt. Those teams were really good. And he's having one of his best seasons right now. I love that he played, well, everyone's having anyone who's talented. Of course, but that's just saying, what would these guys have done in that era? And the fact that now we get to

see them in that era, even in their kind of older diminished state, it's like, god damn, these guys are good. Him, Breeze, it's amazing. I loved when he played on the torn ACL in the AFC title game. He's a tough man. He's never missed a start. That just didn't get enough publicity and attention. He's never missed a start. That just didn't get enough publicity and attention. He's never missed a start.

And that is one of those things. When you have a quarterback, you know this. The fact that the guy is there every week for 10 years matters so much. Even like when Rodgers has been hurt for small stretches, it destroys their franchise. You had one season without Brady. That's it. Brady's never been hurt outside

of the one knee. And you can't overstate how important that is. Top 10 shit talker too, Phil Rivers. Oh, yeah. It's great. It's great. He's also top 10. I'm not sure I would want to be on the same team with him, quarterbacks. I honestly think that that's overblown.

I think that people really like playing with him. He's also, the thing that's most underrated about Phil Rivers to me is he's one of the smartest players ever. He's a big man. Jake Cutler's number one on that list of QBs you wouldn't want.

Oh, absolutely he is. Yes. Just football teammates you wouldn't want, period. Rivers is, you know we talk about Manning, that detail series is very fun.

I watch it and he's just, his brain works in a different way. Rivers is on that level. He's quietly one of the three or four smartest quarterbacks of my entire lifetime. Do you want to do 45 seconds

on how Aaron Rodgers would have zero Super Bowls if Jay Cutler didn't get hurt? I truly believe that 2010 Bears team would have beaten that Packers team. I kind of believe it too. I truly believe it. I think I might have bet on them too that. They almost won that game anyway.

It was a close game. It wasn't a blowout. That BJ Raji touchdown is what breaks that thing wide open. And the one Peyton Manning Super Bowl, if the Pats had just converted a third and three, he doesn't have any Super Bowls leading to that weird Denver Super Bowl that he won with the noodle arm.

I love the 2010 Bears so much because that was the first year of Julius Peppers. And they signed him. There was some heavy Hester that year too, right? Oh, he was incredible. They had the best special teams in the league by far. That was his kind of comeback year. Because remember 06 and 07.

06 was the Super Bowl year. And then 07 is when he just went crazy. And then there were a couple down years in there. And then 2010, he just came back with a vengeance. And that was the year they signed Peppers. And I was so pumped. And even back then, like 2009, we weren't watching red zone that much.

You know, you didn't watch. No, the game was, and the game was more violent back then too. The Bears made more sense in 2010. You just didn't see as many guys as you see now. So I knew who Julius Peppers was and I was excited that the Bears signed him. But then watching him play in and play out,

you're like, oh my God, this guy's ridiculous. And that's why that the Bears signed him. But then watching him play in and play out you're like, oh my god. This guy's ridiculous. And that's why that team was so fun. I literally watched him every single play. It's all I would watch. I felt that way. I went to the Lakers game last night and it's not as special for me to go to NBA games anymore.

It used to be my favorite thing ever. I was trying to figure out why it doesn't have... I still like it. Like, don't get me wrong. It's still one of my favorite things. It translates so differently live than other sports too. I used to be like, I love this. And I think part of it is the HD widescreen TVs

and our ability to see any game. I feel like I have a really good feel for these teams now. I used to use the live events to be basically like, all right, this is now going to color in all the things I'm missing. And now I just feel like I see a lot of this in Twitter and there's more information.

There's more information, but the NBA is different. When you see an NBA game live, when you see the way LeBron covers space and all that stuff, it really does translate so much different. Those guys are the ones that translate most differently live in the NBA. Just the guys that cover the amount of ground

that those dudes do. That's what doesn't translate to TV. And the other thing is, I remember- Well, the body language doesn't- The body language- The best thing about going to the game yesterday was just seeing the whole town. This is a random one, but it's-

I remember when Grantland launched and we were going to tons of Clipper games. And that was when Chris Paul just got there in 2011. And I had never really seen Chris Paul live before. And we were sitting on the court side with press seats. And his ability to kind of put the ball on a string and control the pace of the game, that is something I never noticed before seeing him live. That's a random one. But stuff like that, you do get it more when you see it in person.

Yeah, I guess my point is like, it's, there's more of an inundation now. And you, to go back where you were talking about football, there's so much football on all the time now.

Yeah. And I don't like the red zone. I wish they would abolish it. I only watch it so I don't miss anything because I'm watching five or six games. So I keep it on one of the TVs.

I think it devalues all the other games. If I was the NFL, I would get rid of the red zone because I would want people to get the season ticket. Or I'd make red zone part of the season ticket only and that was it. Well, if you don't have DirecTV, you have to do that. No, Time Warner has it now. Oh, excuse me. That's right. I have red zone on my cable.

I watch it at a bar on the early slate anyway. I don't like being able to not see everything. It makes me... If I'm watching red zone, I don't like being able to not see everything. It makes me, if I'm watching red zone, I don't feel like I'm getting the flow of the games. I taught you the value of multiple TVs. You did.

You did. It was an important lesson. The year of Tebow, me, you, Jacoby, Jake Kang, horse at halftime.

Horse at halftime. I totally forgot about that. Trash talking. Me and Jacoby getting mad at each other. My daughter coming in at age six and wiping us all out. Remember when I, remember the game

when the, I watched the next game at your house in 2012 when Tebow beat the Bears. Yeah. And I just like pulled my hood up and walked out.

I drove, I drove around to Los Angeles for like two hours that day. Tebow. Just aimlessly. That was awful.

I'm ready for the, Jacoby loved it so much and it pissed me off so much. I just couldn't handle it. I'm ready for the Tebow NFL documentary. About 10 weeks of Tebow. Don't you professionally make sports documentaries? Can't you make this happen?

Yeah, I probably could. I don't know if the NFL wants to deal with me. I'm not sure they do either. Hold on, let's take a quick break. We're about to talk about gambling. So here's an idea. Whether you're an expert or rookie, you should be betting at MyBookie. If you're the kind of guy that likes to bet a little and win a lot,

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to get a 50% deposit bonus. Promo code BillSimmons. You pay. You win. You get paid. All right, we're back. It's betting time. I did well last week.

I went three and one on my picks. Started with a fresh slate last week. So let's say I bet a million dollars on each game. Because hypothetically, I might have. Is that not what you bet on each game? No, I didn't bet that. So I'm up $1.9 million, Mace. That's not bad.

Yeah, thanks. So I didn't like the slate this week. It's a terrible week. We do the best three games of the week every Thursday, me and Kevin Clark on the Ringer NFL show. And we usually don't include the Thursday game because that's a separate segment. Had to throw it in there this week.

Couldn't find three other games. Yeah, so by the time people hear this, they'll know what happened in Carolina-Pittsburgh. And I actually like Carolina in that game. Not enough to bet, but... What's the line?

It's Carolina right now. It's three and a half. So we'll see what happens to that. But it's a fascinating game. It feels like a three-point game. I think it's going to be really close. I think there are going to be more points than probably the over-under suggests.

In that game, though, I think the most interesting thing is that it's a measuring be really close. I think there are going to be more points than probably the over-under suggests. In that game, though, I think the most interesting thing is that it's a measuring stick for both teams. I think they're right on the fringe, each of them, and I think they're frisky in their respective conferences.

Here's why I don't believe it's a measuring stick. I think Thursday nights are a built-in crutch. That's fair. If you lose, you're like, ah, it's a Thursday night.

Yeah, I understand that. I understand that. I just think both of those teams are in really similar spots within their conferences hierarchy. Well, we'll find Thursday night. Yeah, I understand that. I understand that. I just think both of those teams are in really similar spots within their conference's hierarchy. Well, we'll find out. All right, let's go through a quick couple of things I'm not doing,

but I just wanted to point out. The Jets' Bills over-under is 36 and a half. I actually like the over because you put those two quarterbacks, two turnover machines together, and it's just great field position, pick sixes. Like all the instinct would be like,

Oh, that's, that's going to be like 10 to three, but I actually think it's the opposite. I think it's like more craziness. that's what happened with the bears last week. I think the over under in that game was 37. The bears scored 45 on their own.

I'm not betting that though, because I think you have to have a real gambling problem. If you bet that Tampa is favored by three at home over Washington. betting that though because I think you have to have a real gambling problem if you bet that. Tampa is favored by three at home over Washington. And part of me just thinks Washington is the, is kind of the good bad team,

like the poor man's version of the good bad team. I like them against the other bad teams. Which Tampa Bay is. Right. But I'm not betting that either because Alex Smith might be done.

Washington had this formula they were using over the last month or so where it was like, okay, we're going to score 21 points. You're only going to score 17. And the problem with that in this era is against a really good offense, you can't hold them to 17. And that's what happened with Atlanta last week. And Tampa's bad, but they can

score. True. I like the Colts. I like this spot. Colts hosting the Jags. Can't believe I have to watch football for a living this Sunday. These are all so bad. And I do think the Colts are a dark horse in that division, but I'm not betting on them because-

What's the line in that game? That's Colts by three. I do like that the Colts can move the ball. They can. I actually like the Frank Reich era. I think that offense has been fun. Yeah, their offense. They're using the tight ends in a really creative way. I think that Marlon

Mack is a real player. And their offensive line, for the first time in Andrew Luck's entire tenure there, they figured it out. They really did. Chris Ballard, their GM, has done a good job. I don't feel like Jacksonville is at rock bottom yet. Is another reason to look at this one?

They probably won't this week either, though, because the Colts defense is not very good. Okay. Think about that Colts-Raiders game. It was a shootout. The Raiders haven't been able to score on anyone else. Your Bears, minus six and a half,

after Trubisky, just flat-out boned me against Miamiisky just flat out boned me against Miami. Just a flat out boning cost me money. I do not throw him in teases and parlays. And I also... That end zone interception was brutal. It was brutal. Really horrible.

That doesn't even need to happen. There was an offensive pass interference on the previous play. They should have won the game. It was a two-play wham-a-roo. It totally swung the game. I'm weirdly scared of this Lions team for some reason. This looks like, so the Bears are giving six and a half at home. Oh, the Lions, they packed it in for

the year and I'm just, I'm staying away. I have seen too many ugly Bears-Lions games over the time. I don't like the division rivals. I don't like that either. The reason that I feel good about it is watching that Lions offensive line and watching their offense against Minnesota's defense last week,

who has Daniel Hunter, they're good. But Mack comes back this week. The Bears pass rush is really good. I feel like they absolutely could take it to them, but I wouldn't bet that either. Yeah. Okay. So here's what I'm doing.

I have two bets. I'm going to throw these off you. And if you don't talk me out of them, I'm going to do these. All right. Here don't talk me out of them I'm going to do these alright here's my first one Maze wait on me the adjusted line for Chiefs cards you can bring it down to Casey minus 5.5

by shifting it 10 points 10.5 combined with the Chargers minus 500 against the Raiders all they have to do is win the odds for this are minus 215 combined with the Chargers minus 500 against the Raiders, all they have to do is win. The odds for this are minus 215. That's pretty good. I am putting up $2.15 million to win a million on that bet.

All that has to happen is the Chargers have to win and the Chiefs have to win by six or more against the horrendous Cardinals. Now, let's walk through this for a second. The Raiders are done. Yes. They'll win one more game this year, but it'll be like a Thursday night in December,

or it'll be some stupid fluky. They'll beat somebody that just— They play the Broncos one more time. Yeah, or they'll beat somebody that just was looking ahead to the next week and something dumb will happen, and they'll get a special teams. They will win one more time this year and that's it. They're a train wreck. And then KC versus Arizona is like the DVOA Super Bowl.

It's like KC is like the third best DVOA team in 30 years going against Arizona who's like 31st this year. They're really bad. I don't know if you could make this line high enough. I just don't like betting games with high lines, so bringing it down to make them win by a touchdown. I can understand that. Yeah, I just don't feel like that Cardinals won,

I feel pretty safe about. I mean, I just don't even against- So who screws me? Chiefs have to win by six, or the Raiders beat the Chargers. I think the Chargers laying an egg screws you, but I don't think they will. I think if one of those teams ruins it for you,

I would pick the Chargers, but I still don't think they're going. You're not going to believe this, but the Chargers have the 32nd ranked special teams in DVOA this year. They brought back Michael Badgley though. He made all the kicks. Hard to believe.

Here's my second one. I was in their locker room today. Yeah. And it's just so funny that Michael Badgley is just sitting there alone. Like the kicker that just rotates in and out every week for them. It's a new guy.

No one was talking to him. He was just sitting over there. It's just a dark, dark spot. It would be like if we had a podcast producer spot. If you had the Ringer NFL show pot and every week the guy screwed up and then we just brought somebody in and the guy

was just sad. No one wants to talk to the guy because they know he's going to be gone three days from now. Here's my other one. The Falcons are laying four and a one. It's the Falcons. They're laying four and a half. They're playing in Cleveland. My attitude is every week I can bet against Greg the Bounty Hunter as long as the line's reasonable.

I'm going to do it. That is one of the most dysfunctional franchises I've ever seen. I've never heard you say Greg the Bounty Hunter before. Yeah. He's had 11 written job offers. Oh my God. He's just a jackass. He's the worst.

In a meeting, how do his players even look at him with a straight face? I honestly have no idea. We watch all this stuff now. I mean, I know Belichick's a hard ass, but Sean McVay and how he's created this culture of accountability and camaraderie and just it's a back and forth and it's a dialogue and all this shit. And Greg Williams is calling guys bitches like every single

second of every single day. I just don't understand it. So another chance to bet on them. I still don't 100% trust the Falcons outdoors. So I'm going to throw them in a tease. I'm going to tease them down. Six point tease. Tease them down to throw them in a tease. I'm going to tease them down. Six point tease. Tease them down to plus one and a half in Cleveland,

which they could somehow, the way Cleveland works, could probably Cleveland wins by one. I could still cover. I feel good. I feel much better about the Falcons outdoors now than I did a week ago because they went on the road. They beat the heck out of Washington.

And the problem when they were playing this, they haven't played many road games, period, this year. They've played at home so much. When they played at Pittsburgh, they just couldn't block anybody. The Steelers just dominated them. And that didn't happen against Washington last week. So this is a game a month ago where I would have said

Miles Garrett could just blow it up. But I don't think that's going to happen anymore. Those guys are gassed. They have not rotated their defensive line at all. They are out of gas. I just feel like Atlanta can roll over them. I do like Nick Chubb too. He's a good player.

That's about all I like at this point. The Falcons run defense has been pretty bad for most of the season, but it's getting a little bit better. There's some signs that they're one of the second half make a run. Atlanta win the Super Bowl, but to be, oh, look at the, wow.

Who could have guessed? Deion Jones is coming back. They just got Bruce Ervin. I mean, I don't love Bruce Ervin, but he's better than what Vic Beasley's given them. Kyle and I wanted him. And, well, I mean, yeah, he's a nice guy to just drop into. But he's not the type of guy you guys use.

Yeah. Like, Trey Flowers is what Bill Belichick wants out of pass rushers. He does not want Bruce Ervin. Trey Flowers, very highly ranked on the PFF, whatever the hell that thing is. He's a perfect Bill Belichick player. We were talking about this earlier. Did you talk to Clark about the PFF, whatever the hell that thing is. He's a perfect Bill Belichick player. We were talking about this earlier. Did you talk to Clark about that PFF take

that James White was having a better year than Todd Gurley? I do not agree with that take. I loved it. I'm sure you did. That was a take and a half. I'm sure you did. That was like a triple take.

So anyway, Falcons down to one and a half. So for my other team, Eagles minus seven against Dallas. I could tease them down to one or Saints and Cincinnati, ignore all the red flags and just tease them to plus 0.5. I need somebody to throw at the Falcons in a tease. I would probably do the Eagles. So here's the case for the Eagles. The Clapper is an abomination. It's always a good one. the Eagles. The Clapper is an abomination. They're not good at football. I think the Eagles, this is

right around, I was waiting for them to kind of flip the switch a little bit. A little Super Bowl hangover. Sal and I have been talking about it for two months. We'll wait. We're not writing them off yet. They're going to have a run at some point. They're going to look at each other. Here we go. Golden Tate's in there now. They got Lane Johnson back this week. Lane Johnson's back. They're going to look at each other. Here we go. Golden Tate's in there now. They got Lane Johnson back this week.

Lane Johnson's back. They're home. Feels like a potential of like a 37 to 10. Whoa, the Eagles. Here they are. I love the offense. I'm going to bet that. I'm going to bet 1.1 million to win a million

on the Falcons or the Eagles. Six point tees. I like that. I like that. Especially at home with Philly. I like it. I would do those. I cannot talk you out of those. I really think this is when the Eagles start to come on. I'm excited to watch the offense with Tate. I just feel like it's going to be much different.

I like going with Tate. Tate and Aguilar are kind of similar. They have overlapping skill sets, so I think their offense is going to look a little different. Less too tight ends, but they're going to get the ball quick. They can be really fun over the second half. I'd be afraid of them if I were an NFC team. There's a third bet I would have done if I didn't want to

subconsciously root for it. I think the Titans-Pats line is way too high. What is it? It's 7. It's in Tennessee. The Titans haven't been able to really muck up games so far this year. It's the kind of team that gives the Pats trouble. A little like what we saw with Buffalo on Monday night,

except Buffalo doesn't have an offense. They have Mariota, Scrambler. Things break down. He takes off. The back-breaking 39 run for first down. The Deion Lewis. The Malcolm Butler. Vrabel.

Malcolm Butler's playing like garbage. No, I know he is, but if there was ever a week for it to come back. Oh, see, I'm going the other way. I think that Belichick just picks on him left and right. Well, so that would be fun. I didn't want to root for Titans plus seven, but this game I think is a red flag game because the Pats kind of haven't played that well the last couple weeks.

Like that Packers thing, they did some gimmicks to create points, and and that game was 17-17 and it looked like the Packers had momentum and then a couple good things happened all of a sudden the Pats were winning but I don't love the way the Patriots are playing I know Neffy Kyle doesn't either it's hard for me I find joy in it well you find joy in the winning we're winning yeah yeah but it's it's one of the uglier Pats teams yeah what I'm gonna pick against the Patriots especially this season it's gonna of the uglier Pats teams. Yeah. When I'm going to pick against the Patriots, especially this season, it's going to be against a team that has just tons of firepower that can outscore them.

The Titans do not have that. The Titans' offense is objectively bad. Yeah. So that's why I wouldn't be that afraid. I think they can muck it up and it can be less than seven, but I wouldn't be worried about losing. So out of these,

just for the gambling addicts out there, out of these, I think one of these, I think one of these three teams covers and wins a Moneyline bet. I'm going to give you three choices. Lions plus six and a half. They are plus 255. Titans plus 250 to win outright.

And then the other one, let's go with the Buffalo Bills plus 250 to win outright. And then the other one, let's go with the Buffalo Bills plus 250. I'd pick the Bills. That's how I feel too. Why not? They have, the Bills have the best chance to have one of their units dominate a game against the team that's better than them.

Their defense can control that game. The Bills have won two games this year. I understand that it's a punchline with Peterman at this point, but I mean, I guess McCown's playing. So that's a whole different ballgame. McCown's playing for the Jets? I think so. Why?

Because Darnold's hurt. His feelings are hurt or he's actually hurt? I'm almost certain that McCown is playing this year. Well, we don't want to get bad information out there. I agree with you. I think that Bill's Jets line's too high. Mays, anything else? That's all I got.

That's it? That's all. How's Chicago? Did it get I got. That's it? That's all. How's Chicago? Did it get cold yet? It's getting a little bit cold. Josh McCown will start on Sunday for the Jets. Oh my lord. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

That's a bad thing if you're betting on the Bills. I really do think that. Yeah. It's been great. I love this time of year in Chicago. Rank the rookie quarterbacks for me. Right now, it's Rosen, Baker, 1A, 1B to me. You can interchange them.

And then I'm probably going with... I mean, I'm definitely going with Darnold. And then Josh Allen's way, way 1A, 1B to me you can interchange them and then I'm probably going with I mean I'm definitely going with Darnold and then Josh Allen's way way way down oh wow tough piece for Josh Allen

he's terrible I think Darnold has a chance to be good I think that team especially with the weapons they have now everyone's hurt would you rather have

Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen Lamar Jackson unbelievable alright Maze listen to the Ringer NFL show please do on theringer.com always a pleasure thanks buddy alright thanks so much unbelievable alright Maze listen to the Ringer NFL show please do Robert Maze on theringer.com

always a pleasure thanks buddy alright thanks so much to Howard Beck and Robert Maze thanks to Shay Serrano his new podcast

Villains coming soon subscribe now thanks to the rewatchables you can hear our All the President's Men podcast

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