The Bill Simmons Podcast - Richard Jefferson on Podcast Fame, Jason Kidd's Greatness, and Kyrie's Departure (Ep. 260)

Episode Date: September 15, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Cleveland Cavaliers forward and NBA champion Richard Jefferson to discuss training with the Walton family (8:00), Tim Duncan as a teammate (15:00), Jason Kidd's dominance (23:00), the 2002 Eastern Conference finals (28:00), Kyrie's scoring ability (33:00), the missed opportunities in the 2017 Finals (38:00), the more offensive-minded NBA (44:00), the 2004 Olympic debacle (52:00), Kevin Love's room to improve (58:00), social media in the NBA (1:03:00), and living in Cleveland post-championship (1:10:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It happened. It's out. You can hear all my thoughts on Migs and Jame Gum. Go right there, Rewatchables. We're taping another one tomorrow. We are taping Speed. Actually, we're taping it today. I'm sorry.

Speed. Me, Shea Serrano, Jason Concepcion, Donny Kwok. That's going next week. So if you want to watch Speed in anticipation of the Rewatchables podcast, knock yourself out. Don't forget, Fridays on TheRinger.com, my football column. I had a really good week last week. I went 3-0 on my bets in the column. Oh, yeah.

Everyone makes fun of me. I bet my picks are. And they'll probably be bad the rest of the year. But all I know is I went 3-0 in week column. Oh, yeah. Everyone makes fun of me. How bad my picks are. And they'll probably be bad the rest of the year, but all I know is I'm with 3-0 in week one. Anyway, that column is up Friday morning, as always, on TheRinger.com. Check it out. Coming up, Richard Jefferson

from the Cleveland Cavaliers. But first, Pearl Jam NBA champ Richard Jefferson yes 2016. 2016 champ. Yeah. 2017 almost champ. Almost champ. I've been almost champ a lot of times. But you won one, though. Now it doesn't matter.

Does not matter. Because as long as you can say champ, that's all that matters. Last year was an interesting year for you because you became a little bit of a off-the-court celebrity with your podcast with Channing Frye. Yeah, I don't— What made you want to do that? I've never heard the story of you guys are just on the back of the bus. Like, how does that happen? Uh, you know what? LeBron is a big camaraderie guy. And I I've said this in on many different platforms. He was a big camaraderie guy. So the team would go to dinner, every other city we'd

be in dinners, just hours and hours arguing about who was the best small forward of all time. Who's the best shooting guard, uh, cracking jokes about who's made the best transition. And I was like, yo, we really should be recording this and putting it out. And I just thought it would be funny. So Channing and I and Allie Clifton, our Fox Sports, she's the sideline reporter, we just decided. I was like, let's just put this together and see what it would be like. We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into.

Can you go back to the dinners? Does LeBron pay every time? Or like 80? Who pays? We all pay. We all pay. Why wouldn't LeBron pay every time? He's like a billionaire.

Yeah, but there's also a few hundred millionaires in our group, too. Sure. Like Kevin Love could get like one every six. Yeah, yeah. Kevin Love makes a lot of money. No, I think more of he does take care of guys. Like he takes care of us from the standpoint of like he's the vet. Like he likes taking care of the rookies or giving guys headphones,

just being a really, really good teammate. That's funny you should ask about Braun because I've heard through my uninterrupted connection that you have kind of a little beef with Braun and Maverick and their crew. Yeah. I don't know that, you know, for some reason they like to say that I don't really know what I did or what happened. I think I'm the only one that doesn't kiss their ass. Well, I didn't, I didn't know about it. And so when I told Maverick likes to talk about it. Yeah. So when I was told that I think I don't kiss his ass enough, I think is the problem. What? Do you think they want you to kiss their ass?

I don't know. I think Mavericks used to just, people were like, oh my God, it's Maverick Carter, and I'm just not wired like that. Well, yeah. No, I had no idea. I was a little bit confused, because they were like, yeah, Bill's got a little bit of a beef. Well, now they think I'm KD's guy, because I've done four podcasts with KD, so now I'm

KD's guy. Are you KD's guy? I'm not anyone's guy. Well, you just did four podcasts with KD. I've done one with you. Am I Richard Jefferson's guy? If we get to four- I want to I'm Katie's guy. Are you Katie's guy? I'm not anyone's guy. Well, you just did four podcasts with Katie. I've done one with you. Am I Richard Jefferson's guy? If we get to four- I want to be Richard Jefferson's guy.

If we get to four podcasts, you are definitely my guy. Definitely my guy. If we have four hours of things to talk about. Actually, we probably do. You've played with a lot of interesting people. I have. Bron's been on the podcast four times. I've written so many nice things about LeBron.

I think he's the third best player of all time. Okay, that's fair. I love rooting against him. Can you give me your one and two? Yeah, well, one's Jordan. That's unassailable. Two? Two is Bill Russell, who has 11 titles. See, I wrote a book about this, but

I don't read. I know, but if you're going to judge all these guys by eras, you can't. Because your era would kill everybody else's era. So I like to judge people in the era and then figure out, all right, Bill Russell won 11 titles. So what's the equivalent of that now? Very dominant in his era.

Yeah, the most dominant of any era. I think what separates LeBron, how many years have you been there? Three? Three. This will be my third. The consistency, the durability, and just night after night after night after night of him being at a certain level. And there's only been a couple times where he's even slipped from that level for even two, three weeks.

Yeah. But it's him and Kareem just from that standpoint of every night, you know you're getting pencil in the 27-7-7. Where do you rate Kareem? I had third i passed i jumped lebron over him you know how many finals in a row now seven seven that's crazy it's an incredible achievement that's nuts and and seven like pretty easily there's only there was he was down two one to indiana i think he had miami he had a couple game sevens with boston and with um he had a couple game sevens with Boston and with Indiana, right?

2012. I think there was one game seven against Indiana, but we all knew they were winning that one. Boston was the closest, 2012. But for the most part, I mean, part of it is the conference, I guess. The consistency of it, the fact that he's never been injured, the fact that he takes

such a beating night after night. You've seen all these dudes. He's getting hammered. Yeah. It's part of the book on him. But he does. So a couple years ago when I first got there, his back was really, really bad.

And that's something that I don't think, you know, he had to take those couple weeks off his first year in Cleveland. I remember that. And his back was bothering him. And his back was bothering him actually at the start of the year again. And, you know, again, he's got every trainer, every dog, everybody at his disposal. And I remember having a conversation with him. And I was like, brah, man, back when I was almost done, like in 2013, my back was just – I'm talking about I would come off the bench and it would take me 10 minutes to get warmed up.

The only problem is I'm only playing eight. So it was a problem. And I was like, dude, you should really, really kind of look at biomechanics. And I know everyone's in the Instagram world, but if you look at all the core strengthening, all the stuff that he does now, that's part of the reason why I feel like he's not having as many back issues as he once was. Are you taking credit for this? By no means. I was just saying, though, I saw the transition of him really going into biomechanics and strengthening his core and doing a bunch of stuff.

So he always posts those videos half-naked. A lot of shirtless Instagram. A lot of shirtless. You will never see a shirtless photo well I heard Luke Walton was on I think six months ago he's your best friend

or one of your best friends yeah yeah is he best friend is he BFF you know what we one of my best friends we grew up together

so he was talking about how he said he took credit you didn't take credit for the bar he took credit for you he said I saved Richard Jefferson's career

beach volleyball and yoga. He did this whole thing about. I heard about that. He came here. He's playing volleyball on the beach. He's stretching out. And all of a sudden, that led to the famous dunk in game seven. But see, what he didn't really talk about was the part before that.

So we, fresh out of college, I grew up in Phoenix. He was in San Diego at big Bill's house. So big Bill would, you know, Richard, we'd love to come you out, have you out, hang out with our boys. And so he has three other brothers that also play division one basketball. Yeah. So when we were like freshmen, sophomores in college, I would fly out there, hang out with his brothers. We would all work out together, play basketball, just, you know, really bullshit till Bill would kick us out and, play basketball, just really bullshit until Bill would kick us out and tell me to leave and go back home. Get out of here, Richard. You're

destroying my life. And so that was kind of a consistent thing. So every summer I would go out and train out in San Diego. Eventually I bought a house in San Diego. So me, Luke, all of our boys, we would train out there. We would work out together. We played the same position. So it was good competition. Next thing you know, buy a house out there, and Luke just stops coming down there. Luke just stops coming down. So he just starts spending more and more time in LA. He met his wife, Bree. They buy a home.

So next thing I know, I'm down there in San Diego by myself with nothing to do. No one to work out with. It's beautiful, but you get lazy as shit there really, really quickly. Everyone's super happy. Super happy, mellow. So I had to move up to LA. And yes, from that standpoint, I kind of gravitated towards the volleyball and yoga life because it's really all there is to do in Hermosa Beach. Well, it led to one of the great old band moments in recent basketball history. Yes. The famous dunk. Yeah. Which nobody could understand. I mean, it was like immediate. It's on Twitter.

Oh, yeah. There's GIFs after, people breaking it down. It became a meme. Well, honestly, I wish that I had a Twitter so that I could have gotten a lot more followers. Yeah. But I don't. So I don't have a Twitter. I don't have an Instagram.

The only thing I have is really from our road tripping podcast. So your career, you said it was almost over. Yeah. You hit this point, you know, you had a great run on the nets. You go to the Spurs. You're like the missing piece for them. They pay, I forget how much money and it doesn't really work out. Then you go to the warriors. All of a sudden you become like a big contract. Then they trade first round picks to get rid of you. And you're like in that stage of your career what's so mean it's like when you talk about trading first round picks it's really when you're talking about like the spurs you're talking about the 29th pick right you're not listen you're not trade it's not it's not the the possible number one pick that the

calves just got from from uh well they didn't did they trade you what did they do i can't remember the spurs yeah they tried to amnesty me but they i think it's the amnesty is that the word yeah Cavs just got from Boston. Did they trade you? What did they do? I can't remember. The Spurs. Yeah, they tried to amnesty me, but I think it's amnesty. Is that the word? Yeah, they had the amnesty. But the amnesty, the thing wasn't right. And truth be told, I was not the best version of myself when I was there. So I have no problem.

So what happened there? Honestly, it was a new experience for me. I think the role that I was playing there was unlike anything that I had done before in my career. You remember in the Jersey days, it was fast-paced, go up and down, ISO basketball. There, it's a lot of pick and rolls, and I was never a pick and roll player. So it was pick and roll with Tony Manu, and then you had the post-up with Tims. And then it was like, Richard, stand over here. Stretch the floor for us. Stretch the floor.

Stretch the floor. And that being said, the system has worked flawlessly for many, many years. I think part of the reason why you've seen the success of Kawhi is because you've seen kind of the Tim leave, Tony getting older, Manu older. So those guys, I came in when those guys were kind of still in their primes or towards the end of their prime. So it was more about, hey, come here and help us. And, you know, I just didn't handle it great. Because you had had so much success. Like you were just this staple on all those net streams.

You didn't have to worry about minutes, all that stuff. Yeah, so it was just different. You know, and Pop is a we're only going to play you 28 minutes a night. You're not going to play 37, 40. I was top five in the league in minutes for many years when I was playing with the Nets. So it was just a different environment, and I didn't handle it great. But I will say a lot of the things that I learned there have helped me prolong my career since the time I've left there. Like what?

Just the way you need to work out during the summer, the taking care of your body, the constant focus on your weight and your body fat and everything that you do. It is literally like I hear Miami is very similar to that with like Pat Riley and how he stays on guys. Cause you can really, if you're not playing or if you're used to something or if you're injured and you're trying to come back, you can really kind of decondition yourself in the middle of the season and not even realize what happened. I'm always amazed when that happens though. Like Marcus Smart last year was heavy by the end of the year. And it's like, Marcus, he looks like a middle linebacker. What's happening? And then you find out in the offseason, he got in shape. He's down to 219 pounds. It's like, you guys are playing every day.

How do you get out of shape? It's tough because you're in this weird moment where you don't want to work too hard so that it affects the way you play. You don't want to kill yourself. But at the same point in time, you're sitting on planes. You got the chips. You got the stakes. You literally get on the plane, and they're like, OK, well, we got P.F. Changs, or we got the chips. You got the steaks. Like you literally get on the plane and they're like, okay, well, we got P.F. Chang's or we got Ruth Chris, you know? And so it's like for the third steak and it's like you played 10 minutes tonight and then

you eat a steak, then you fall asleep at midnight, you eat a steak. And then the next day you go and get a good workout in and it's like slowly but surely. And even, I'll say this, you can have low body fat, but be gaining weight, right? So like, it's not like your body fat, you just become fat, but it's like, all of a sudden you can be 225 at 8% body fat instead of being, you know, 212 at 8% body fat, right? So it's, you have to really watch it in management. And that's something that San Antonio used to be up on the board. You know, our last weigh-in was January 1st. The next weigh-in was January 15th.

And you can see if you've gained weight, if your body fat is down. Oh, so no body shaming. Oh, full-on fat shaming. Greg Popovich, body shamer. Oh, full-on fat. No, not body shaming. Fat shaming. Fat shaming.

Yeah, it was a good time. Did you like playing for him, ultimately? I loved it. I wish, again, I went through a lot in that, in that moment in time, I was having a lot of things off the court and just like anything, you're human. Uh, but I, I really wish that, um, I would have been a better version of myself in that, in that moment. But pop is the best coach that, that outside of Lute Olson, uh, he's the best coach that I've ever been around and played for as far as caring for his players, wanting his players to succeed, trying to motivate players, going different ways.

It could be a pat on the back. It could be a kick in the butt. But just trying to motivate you. Duncan, overrated, underrated, or properly rated as an unbelievable teammate? Is he even underrated? 100% underrated. Because people consider him to be the best teammate of him and Dirk I think they're funny they're completely different yeah like Dirk is really

really kind of like just like outwardly funny a little bit more and Tim's more introverted like the more conversation you have with Tim uh the more you realize he's a full-on smart ass and asshole uh he was actually like he came on our podcast it was good, he came on our podcast. It was good. Yeah. He came on our podcast and it was one of those things like you don't even realize it. But it was like, you think about it and it's like, he had done nothing like no media. He didn't do a farewell tour. And then he shows up at his, he shows up at his Jersey retirement. That's it. And then no one had heard from him. And so he comes on the podcast. And people, I remember seeing on Twitter, and they're like, this is not a drill. Tim Duncan actually sat down for an hour and did a podcast.

And so- I was jealous. I mean, that was like a legit media exclusive. He doesn't talk to anybody. He doesn't talk to anyone. And I think he would talk to you. He would. I tried.

Even when I was on Countdown running great, I had an in. Yeah. Because the Spurs, they running great, I had an in. Yeah. Because the Spurs, they liked us. I knew those guys. And I couldn't get it done because at the last second, each time, he was like, eh, I don't want to. I think he did one. I think he only did one magazine feature, I think, the entire time down the stretch there. And look, he was a great teammate.

And we still keep in touch. And we crack a lot of jokes. Like, Tim is one of those guys that if you want to talk about cars, if you want to talk about MMA, if you want to talk about poker, if you want to talk about hunting or gun, like he will talk all day nonstop. Yeah. You know, you get to basketball and he's like, eh. You think Pop goes out of his way to find different types of characters to kind of throw together on a roster? I wouldn't say that. I think pop knows that not everyone can play for him. Um,

I, that, that is, you know, something that is very, you know, it's been evident for, for years.

And so I, I think pop tries to find people that he feels can play for him. And I think that means that you're going to have one guy from here, one guy from here, one guy from there. There's not this like farm of guys that, Oh, I just need gritty, hard-nosed guys. Like, no, because not all of those guys can play. You really have to find.

And I think that's also why guys that stay with the Spurs and have so much success, because if Pop feels that this guy can play for me, I'm not going to just let him go for another shooter. You look at a guy like Matt Bonner that was there for a long, long time. It's like, yo, he's like, this guy can play for me, I'm not going to just let him go for another shooter. You got to look at a guy like Matt Bonner that was there for a long, long time. It's like, yo, he's like, this guy can play for me. So, you know, it's like Belichick. I mean, he's very similar. Like certain guys can make it with them and then they stay until they're done. Yeah. And it's, you know, I remember seeing, you know, LaMarcus Aldridge kind of go through an up and down thing and it is very, very tough. You know, I was never a multi-time all-star guy like Marcus was, but you know, I had a bit of success with the Nets and just in my career, but coming there and trying to navigate the system and still be who you've always been,

that you've known success. It's very tough. And not many guys have ever done it. You cross paths with Kawhi, right? Yes, as a rookie. Did you see him becoming one of the best five players in the league at any point during that stretch? I wouldn't say that, but I did see ability. I saw unique ability. I think, again, the system in which he's in is very, very great. He's a two-way player. He plays hard. He knocks down shots. I remember this.

I remember when we worked out. He went to San Diego State. We were working out during the lockout in San Diego. We were shooting and working out. I remember I was like, well, what's the story? They're like, well, they just don't know if he can shoot. We would go into the gym and I would see this guy shoot. I'm like, oh, no, no, no. He's going to be just fine. Yeah. He's a, he's a good shooter right now before getting a part of chip England, before getting into the system with the spurs and the wide open shots. And it, the spur system helped me become a better spot up shooter. So I was not surprised that his jump shot was far greater than what people had projected. And once you can do that, everything else is easy.

I'm always amazed that some owner just hasn't given Chip Anglin like $20 million a year. Yeah. Because you think about all the money they spend on players, coaches, everything. This shooting coach who has transformed all these different people, I would think that's worth at least as much as an all-star. It is worth a lot. And Chip is very, very good. Now, he went to Duke, and we had a little bit of a beef our first year.

I know. It sucked. We had a little bit of a beef our first year. And again, I was a little frustrated in the system. I wasn't great. And the year coming from Milwaukee, the one year. That's right. I forgot about Milwaukee.

No one cares. Who was on that team, though? It was me, Michael Redd, and Bogut, but Michael Redd tore his ACL, and Bogut broke his back. So it was like everything that could have been just never was. So the next year I'm gone. But that year I shot like close to 40% from three and made over 100 threes for the first time in my career.

So I get to San Antonio, and I can't shoot a shot, and I I'm struggling and I'm like frustrated at the system and trying to find my way. And Chip was like, Hey, let me work with you. I'm like, Chip, if you don't get the fuck away from me right now. Right. And so that summer after my first year there, he was like, okay, we had a kind of a little powwow. We, we hashed it out and he started working with me and the the the change was immediate it was little things that like staying low and ready the entire time like crouching like crouching because it's like you know tony and mano are going to dribble 19 times in a pick and roll and be like uber aggressive so when they throw you the ball there's not going to be a lot of time for you to go into your package like you have a chance to catch and shoot catch catch and drive, or catch and pass, right?

And so, especially in that corner position, the Bruce Bowen position. So you almost had to like strip your brain of half of the way you played basketball. A hundred percent. These are my three selections. Yeah, and I had always been a rhythm player. You know, playing with Jason Kidd

who would throw you the ball early and often and you would get multiple touches. That was one of those ones where you would kind of chill in a wing or chill in a corner and not really know what was going to happen. So that's something that Chip, best I've ever worked with, did for me and just, again, prolonging my career. That helped you with Cleveland.

Yeah, helped me with Cleveland, prolonging my career in Dallas and in Utah, both places I shot over 40% from three. And it became kind of a benchmark, which allowed me to play a little bit longer. Like, yes, I still have athleticism that can be shown, but really my strength is being able to consistently knock down a jumper. Let's take a break to talk about SimpliSafe. I learned something shocking from an FBI report recently. What's the average property loss from just one home break-in? $2,316.

Crazy. One burglary over 2,000 bucks. Tally up all the burglaries in this country. It's worse. That last number is in the billions. It's almost as bad as the fact that I can't say the word burglary. Burglary. Burglary.

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Or if you want this home security system right away, guess what? Just go to your local Best Buy. You can get it there too. You'll have your home protected by the night. Stay safe, my friends. Use Simply Safe. And now let's go back to Richard Jefferson.

Go back to Jason Kidd. So you go into the league. Was he, they had made the Barbary for Kidd trade, right? That was the previous summer. No, no, that was that summer. That summer, right. So our point. You're a rookie.

Here's my new point guard. And it's like one of the five best point guards. Oh, my God. Or eight. I forget where he is on the list. He should be five. But certainly the most unselfish. Yes.

And you catch him during his two Mac Daddy years. Yeah. He was unbelievable those two years. 27. He was so good. I was so mad. I had a column, but I probably only had like 15,000 readers. I was going crazy.

I was like, JC K kid's been traded twice. This is like the most important point guard we have when it's happening. And I grew up in Phoenix. I remember Michael Finley being such a huge, like big part of what Phoenix was going to do. Like people loved him. And then they traded Jason kid. And like,

I just remember being in the park and people would be like, man, we got rid of fans. Jason kid. And I was like, yo, do you guys understand what this kid can do? Yeah.

And so fast forward, um, met Channing Frye at Jason Kidd's basketball camp. That's how long I've known. Channing was 14. I was 17. We were kind of working out, just BSing a little bit. He was like seven feet tall and 100 pounds. He was already like six foot nine at 14 years old. So fast forward, I had metason a couple of times just being

a local arizona guy he's a phoenix suns again a phoenix uh just a phoenix guy and so uh he gets traded uh right after i get drafted so byron scott calls me and i'm mad as shit right i work out for houston houston drafts me i'm excited and i get drafted 13th by houston they missed the playoff eddie griffin yeah eddie griff. So it was, but it was, they had Steve Francis, they had Coutinho Mobley. They didn't have a three man really. So I was like, oh, this is going to be great. I'm excited. 15 minutes later, I get a call saying, uh, hey, Richard, uh, we've actually traded you to New Jersey. So Byron Scott calls me and I had a shit workout for them. It was terrible. So he was like, uh, I'm pissed off. Byron's like, hey, well, we got some things that are going to make you happy.

And I was just like, you know. And he's like thinking to himself, I remember he telling me later, like, I can't believe I was literally trying to explain myself to a 21-year-old kid we just drafted. I was so pissed off. But I heard Jason Kidd got traded there. And I was like, oh, this is about to be epic. That trade did not work out, that Eddie Griffin trade for the Rockets. No, it didn't.

I think they gave up like three first-round picks. Three first-round picks for him. I vaguely remember this. I'm getting older. All these trades are starting to blend together. Well, you have a lot more gray than I was expecting. I know. I'm in my late 40s now.

What do you want? Are you really? Okay, you look better. If you didn't have so much gray, you have aged fairly well. I prefer to call it white. Well, I guess white people would want to call it white versus just calling it gray. But I could do the Dr. Pepper. I can't do that.

The broadcasters who dye their hair that weird Dr. Pepper color. Yeah, but if you grew out your hair, you have the most interesting man kind of like salt and pepper going. Well, if I grow out my hair, it goes up, though. Oh, that's unfortunate. Yeah, that's a problem. See, if I grow out my hair, it goes up, though. Oh, that's unfortunate. See, if I grow out my hair, it just doesn't. Wait, go back to Jason Kidd. Don't tell me what to do. No, no, I was really getting into the whole Jason Kidd, you show up, and he's like, first

couple practices, you're running the wing, and you're like, oh my God, what is happening? I think he was in the Olympics that year. I think he was in the Olympics, not. I think he was in the Olympics. Not sure. What was your draft? 2000? Oh, yeah. So it was 2001.

Right. So no, no, no. What happened was he had just had twins. So he had had his twins. So he shows up to training camp right before. And when I tell you the first day of practice, so it was Kenyon, Kerry, Jason Collins, myself, Keith Van Horn, Aaron Williams. It was just a ragtag.

It was a good team. But at the time, even with Jason Kidd, we were picked to finish last in our conference or second to last. They were like, oh, the addition of Jason Kidd will help them win six more wins, but that's going to put them below. I didn't feel that way. Oh, we crushed the Eastern Conference from start to finish. Plus he unleashed Kmart, too, which was another thing.

Yeah. You know what it was? We had health. Kerry Kittles, they didn't know he was going to come back as healthy as he was. Keith Van Horn was injured the year before. Kenyon hurt his leg. So there was health. We didn't have a lot of injuries. So you played my team in the O2 playoffs, and we had the big comeback game

where we came back from like 24 to Celtics. Paul Pierce, the crap. Yeah, yeah. I from like 24 to Celtics. Paul Pierce. Yeah, yeah, I know that shitty team. We couldn't score. We had like 50 points after three quarters. We come back. What do you remember Paul's – so remember Paul had 50 in like the second half against us in the regular season?

Yeah, he – Yeah, he was – Paul, that was probably the best version of Paul before he got to the – He was super athletic. Yeah, he was athletic. It was before he got the old man game down. In the old man game, he crushed for crushed. You guys had some great high level athlete battles though. You're both young. We did. And he was a guy that again, being from the West coast,

being an LA guy, but he went to Kansas and didn't like each other. Well, no, I grew up kind of watching him from the standpoint of like, okay, so this guy's a West coast guy. He went to Kansas, Jacques Bond's a West coast guy, like, and then Arizona beat them, right? So I'm watching Arizona versus Kansas. They beat them. Arizona's on their way to winning a national championship. So I kind of grew up watching him. And then I get there and he just, he talks a lot of shit. Especially with Antoine. Antoine was kind of his Bundini brand. Oh, he was definitely the battery pack. Antoine couldn't always back it up, though. No. But he was always talking.

Oh, Kenyon shut down that Antoine conversation very, very quickly. I was living in Boston back then, so I was going to those games, and Antoine was talking all the time, and they sucked. But they did that year. That year, they were good. They were really, really good. Well, because they fired Patino, who that was like a science experiment, watching him coach multimillionaires.

It was a disaster. Then that team was firing up threes. They weren't very good, but it was a weird era for the league. The talent pool was kind of shallow. Yeah, especially in the East. And so Paul and Antoine, they were great. Remember they brought in veterans, so they had Rodney Rogers. Was it Kenny?

Did they have Kenny Anderson? No, it was Delkin Rogers. Delkin Rogers. Who they traded the rights to Joe Johnson for. Joe Johnson was on the team. Yes, yes. They traded him after 50 games. That did not work out.

That did not work out well for them. Yeah, that was not great. The thing I remember about that series is the fans were really chanting bad stuff at kid because he had had that incident with his wife. Yeah. And it was- Bad. Uncomfortable.

It was something that if social media was what it was today. It was bad. And they were throwing stuff at us. They were throwing pennies and batteries and shit. It was bad. I cannot defend the crowd at all. But it made him mad, which made it worse. Yeah.

And he came in the next game, and he unleashed holy hell. I mean, it was one of the best games. Game four was one of the best games I've ever seen anyone play. I'll say this until I play with LeBron. Now, I play, it was one of the best games. Game four was one of the best games I've ever seen anyone play. I'll say this, until I play with LeBron. Now, I play with Tim towards the end of his career,

but until I play with LeBron, I've never seen a person, like you see highlights for two minutes. You might watch a game, like, oh, Jason Kidd,

one assist away or had a triple-double tonight, but when you see that every single day, and especially in the playoffs where he could rest for two days or a half day, the shit that this man could do on a daily basis and the way he could dominate a game nonstop without ever shooting the ball, I don't know if it'll be seen.

I just don't know if it'll be seen anytime soon. I'll never say never again, but even Russell averaging a triple-d average in 30 lebron what he does yeah but like jay is a guy that just didn't really score that much or just that wasn't his focal point just dominated a game i don't know if we'll see him specifically again because whatever version of him in the mid 90s when he's yeah going up the ladder now he would just be shooting threes 5 000 times a game back then he couldn't he was pretty good one of the years with the Nets, one of those title years shooting threes, but was never really that good. But I think he would have come into the league as a finished product,

as an outside shooter. Yeah. And it would have changed how he played. I don't know if he goes to the rack the same way. Well, everyone scores now. Everyone wants a scoring point guard. There's so many guys out there. I look at the Steve Nash's, the John Stockton's uh john wall is a guy that i really really like he's he's pretty especially

in the half court super unselfish yeah very very unselfish this is the hope for lonzo right if lonzo can can be that jason kid distributor type he's not the same athlete no and i've and i've actually had people ask me about kind of the old nets days like what did you guys do like how did you guys run because outside of like steve nash who they shot a lot of threes, we were one of the last teams that sprinted for layups, right? Like we were just, no, no, no, no. You don't stop for a three. If you're in front and there's two guys, you run all the way through to the other side. Typically defenders will come with you. It was kind of like, we would call it like the hockey assist where you would run through and maybe you didn't get the ball but that extra pass allowed your teammate

to get it and we and it's crazy to say this in 01 02 and even kind of you know the next few years we were one of the last teams that specifically ran just to get layups because we had Jason Kidd but teams now you like Ron still you veer out to the three-point line, and you let guys either go one-on-one, like big horses like Russell Westbrook or John Wall or LeBron. You let these guys go one-on-one, and if people help, then they can distribute and kick. So the game has changed, but I think if you have a guy like Lonzo who can push the ball and can do this, but you might not necessarily want him going one-on-one in for the basket, you're going to need guys to run for layups. Kidd had that. They actually had to change the charge rule for him because he was going to kill somebody at some point. People would go up and he would just, his feet were so fat. To this day,

I've never seen anybody be able to do that like that. He would be able to go right to the spot and just stop his body like the Matrix. Oh, yeah. And they had to change the rule. They had to put the circle further out so he didn't kill somebody. He was as special of a player as you will ever see. I remember Giannis. He said Coach got after him.

JK got after him about something. And it's a random story. I don't know how much truth it is. No, it's true. He didn't know he was a point guard. He didn't know. So Giannis goes. He says, like,'s that you know the bio bot and again yannis is young and he goes and looks at the guy's resume it's like who is this and it's like you type in jason kidd basketball player 14 time all-star it's like your computer breaks because you're like, oh, Rookie of the Year with Grant Hill, X amount of triple doubles.

And it's just, if you look at his resume, it's so impressive. And he was so smart that he had this whole second part of his career when he was athletically just 25%, 30% of what he was probably and just knew where to go the entire time and who to set up and what to do. Yeah, but that's why I'm not surprised that he's done a good job coaching because he's very similar into LeBron, like LeBron, but LeBron is an extrovert. LeBron is an emotional guy outwardly and mentally.

He will tell you, hey, this is what we should do, or Richard, you need to get here, where Jason Kidd was more of kind of like just play the game and then be like, hey, Richard, we're going to go back to that play again. Silent Assassin. Yeah, Silent Assassin. But both of them, they just saw the game so far ahead of everyone else. I'm literally, and again, I'm no one special,

but it was like I see me, the ball, and the hoop. That's me. How can I get this into there where they're just playing a different game? So that was one of the things when people – Kyrie gets traded, and this turns into this seven-week argument about is Kyrie a superstar or not. Well, he was on LeBron's team. LeBron, he was only that good because of LeBron. He only made the finals because of LeBron.

LeBron did everything, all that stuff. And I'm pro-Kyrie. Even before he got traded on my favorite team, I was always like, what are people talking about? This guy's been in every big game possible. Do you feel like we have seen everything we could have seen from Kyrie at this point? Because I say no. Oh, I don't know. That's the thing is I didn't really know much of Kyrie before I got there. I knew he was special. I would see some stuff. but I was on the Western Conference for seven years, especially when he came up. So you might get him one time a year or twice a year, whatever, in his first three or four years. So I might've played against

a kid three or four times, but it was Cleveland. So their team was terrible. So you didn't really, and it was like, you just kind of cataloged it as like, okay, let's get this win and keep it moving. So I didn't really know much about the kid when I showed up. I knew whatever. But when you see the guy play on a daily basis, like, again, he is one of those people that is skill-wise and talent-wise, he's special. He can do things that I've never seen before. From a guy that size, do it every single day consistently. Have we seen the best?

I don't know. I don't know. But skill-wise and talent-wise, he is someone that can do things very similar to a Jason Kidd or somebody else. It seems he's reached that last level where the other players are like, that guy, which is maybe seven eight nine guys a year yeah that all the players in the league are like yeah that's one of the guys he does things that we can't do or we don't yeah yeah yeah no there there's no doubt

like when you you would see lebron look at him and be like god like yeah really and again you're looking and i say this being in this league for 17 years like i've watched you know so many guys at their prime at the end like i played against john stockton i played against akim elijah like i've played against so many guys and he does stuff with the stop and start and his ability to hit shots off the dribble with the left hand with the right hand the floater this high off the glass and they never get blocked no and it's and it's even if it does get blocked it's one out of a thousand like yeah probably it probably slipped out of. Even if it does get blocked, it's one out of a thousand. It probably slipped out of his hand at some point

in time. But it's just you see things in his body control. And there's just so many things that he can do. No one really knows how this all came about with the trade and stuff. Well, the case against him as a

franchise player is he was in the cushiest spot where LeBron, it's like he didn't have the weight and stuff. But, you know. Well, the case against him as a franchise player is he was in the cushiest spot where LeBron, it's like, he didn't have the weight of carrying a team every night offensively. He could kind of come in, go. I don't agree with this logic. I'm just telling you what the logic is. Who is giving this logic? This was the internet for all summer.

Oh, now. This was our office. We're not quoting the internet now. I'm talking about people, real writers. People like Howard Beck, who I really respect. Okay, there we go. Give was our office. We're not quoting the internet now. I'm talking about people, real writers. People like Howard Beck, who I really respect. Okay, there we go. Give me a name. Howard Beck. He laid out this whole case. No, he laid out the pros and cons, and these executives that he

quoted in the piece were like, he's not a superstar. He's not good enough to carry a team. And then other people were like, actually a lot of people around the Cavs were like, he's a superstar. We watch it every day. He's great. Again, I can just say this as a guy that, you know, I was his teammate the last few years, and, you know, his ability to score, scoring 40 points in the finals,

I think a couple of times, hitting a game-winning shot, the biggest shot of my career he hit. It was probably the biggest shot anyone's made on the road in a finals game. In history. You could make a case. You could literally make a case. You could make a case you can make a case and given everything who it was over and they called the plate for him in the huddle right yeah it's just well you won the court i was on the court

for it and i knew it was going to kairi so i was on the right corner right i was in the right corner and i got waved out and i was like good I want to be nowhere near this, right? Right. Because I don't want my guy to run to him, and then they throw it to me, and I now, you know. Are you nervous at that point, or is it like nervous energy? It's nervous energy mainly because I, look. Because you've played in a lot of games and finals games, all kinds of shit. Yeah, so my back story is like I lost in the national championship.

We had a great, great team. We underachieved. Then I went to two straight finals right away. I was on the debacle that was the 2004 Olympics. I won 61 games in San Antonio and we lost in the first round. So I've had so many kind of heartbreaks and I wanted it so bad. So it's just like in that moment- That's why you dunked three feet over everybody. I was like, I wanted it so bad. So I wouldn't say, nervous is not the right word. I think it's more of just like that energy. Like when you, like, you know, when a little kid has a puppy

and they squeeze it so much, you're like, ah, I love it. That was kind of me in that moment. It's an unbelievable game to rewatch. Yeah, it is. Because Azealia has to come in with like five minutes left because Barnes just had checked out. And LeBron puts the six straight points on him basically and that crowd gets nervous. Can you feel when the crowd gets nervous? Well, I said this not

too long ago. That is the only environment playing against the Cavs that the Warriors fans will ever get nervous. And vice versa. Cavs fans, the only time... So you watch Cavs that the Warriors fans will ever get nervous, right? And vice versa. Cavs fans, the only time, so you watch Cavs have all, you know, the Cleveland fans are all day long, oh, we got LeBron. You watch a game, like we go 12 and one and we really should have gone undefeated through our conference. And you watch the game and the Cavs fan are eating popcorn,

like, oh, great dunk off the glass. And same thing with Golden State. They're cruising. But the minute LeBron walks in that building and they see this man do these things, you're like, oh, OK, we've never, OK, this is a little uncomfortable. And vice versa. Like the minute KD comes in there and he starts doing things, that's the first time that both sides are uncomfortable and it's only when you play against each other so like yeah you feel the energy that that whole

warriors starts going yeah warriors come on god you know that's really the way you see a bunch of rich people sitting courtside starting to look yeah like yo i paid 50 grand for these tickets. But they are a great team. And to see what Kyrie and Bron and our team was able to do two years ago. And I felt like we left a lot on the table. Not to take anything away. I was going to ask. Three straight finals. Do you feel like you should have gotten two?

It's tough because, again, you have injuries the first year. And Andre Godala plays great. First year was probably your best chance because they hadn't been there before. And I was not on that team. I didn't show up. I just said Cleveland's best chance. Yeah, I don't know. Only include me.

I'm one and one versus the Warriors. Nice. But, no, you're right. I think so. I remember actually texting Luke when they were down 2-1. And before I knew that I was going to get thrusted into the whole drama, I was like, oh, you're going to be fine. Relax. Like, Della Vadova's playing out of his mind. Like, he's not going to be able to do that for like five straight games. Little did I know, like, Dele almost died of exhaustion playing so

hard. And it was, you know, but that's the way it goes. You don't understand. For instance, the fans don't fully grasp it. We lose 4-1, right? We didn't play great. We really didn't play great. We didn't play. Yeah, they built an excuse with the Kyrie injury, all that stuff. Are you talking about this last one? I'm talking about the last one.

This last one. We didn't play great. But we have, KD hits that huge shot in game. I was going to say, that series was, I went to three of those games. That series was way closer than people remember now. Like Kyle, who is one of the great shooters in the history of the game of basketball, like in the history of the game, he has a good look. It doesn't drop.

That's part of it. Or even two minutes before, JR has a wide open three, and he takes the hop step to the left and missed it. And missed it. But if that goes in, the game's over. And then KD hits a tough shot over LeBron on a dribble up.'s a that's but i'm saying that close in the game and and you win the next game then you mess up the two for one yeah that's what i'm saying but that's what i'm saying like people don't understand like oh four one they killed you and it's like dude it's literally one

shot here one shot then you go two two right if it's two two you go there it's game five i still stand there there's zero chance very similar to the before. We do not lose on our home court in a game six situation, right? Right. Now you go game seven, anything can happen. Like, that's how close it is. It's literally a difference between three shots playing in a game seven and losing 4-1. But you just made the argument, why trade Kyrie then? Because I agree with you.

I thought that finals was— I'm not a part of that. I just work there. Yeah, but you had to be – I want to roll it back and run it back with our dudes again. Do you understand the level of say-so I have in that organization? It is zero, right? No, look, it's not –

Because the case would be the Warriors, they were completely healthy. Durant played the best series he's ever played. Not that he's not the best player, second best player in the league where everyone ranked him, but he was awesome. Curry was awesome. They caught a big break in game three when you guys didn't close it. And if you played 20 times, maybe they win 12 or 13. You win seven or eight.

Who knows? But run it back. Now they've had the hunger. They've won already. You guys have the hunger back in of you didn't win. I don't know. You don't know. And we can,

you know, part of, you know, your job and people in media's job is to play the hypothetical. All I know is that we lost. I'm pissed off. I'm not happy about it. Yeah.

When did you know you were going to lose? When did I know? Was there a point in game five where you're like, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Late. It was late though. It was like, it was probably about like three or four minutes they finally broke away because i think

we were down nine at halftime but then we cut it to five going into the fourth and i check out and at that point in time it was kind of like okay now whoever makes the most shots whoever makes the most plays is going to win and that's the position that you want to be in you don't want to be in oh we're down 15 and we got to do something miraculous. It's like, no, as long as we don't turn the ball over, we don't make this mistake, we're going to be fine. But I think it was literally with a minute to go, two minutes to go, you start to kind of see it. And, you know, Andre Iguodala, I've known for years since he was in college, you know, Steph and Clay and all these guys, I played with them. So it was like, you know, it's tough because you're a competitor and you're pissed off. Hey, congratulations. And

then you get ready for next year. I will say that the, I've said this before on this pod, the level of offensive basketball in that series was as high as I've seen. Yeah. I mean, the 80s were great too. Yeah. It was a different style of basketball. They weren't the same threes, but you had the top two guys on each team were playing as well as they could play game after game. It was a different style of basketball. They weren't the same threes, but you had the top two guys on each team were playing as well as they could play game after game. It was really, really fun to watch. What's crazy is that you talk about the offensive level,

but there are defenders out there. Some of the best defenders in the league. Some of the best defenders. You have a Draymond Green. You have LeBron going toe-to-toe with KD. You have defenders out there Clay Thompson very very underrated defender he was great that's yeah yeah very very good very clutch like he whenever we made a mistake he he he he hit the shot see I started to wonder if

offense just seems like it's 70 to 75 percent of how to win a title now where it's changing I always felt like if you protected the rim, you won. And now I feel like if you score the most points, you win, which obviously that's the rule. But I don't know how to beat the Warriors other than just shooting better than they did. I don't know if you stop them. You can stop anyone, truth be told.

But offense obviously has to advance. Now with all the different rule changes and the way everybody's able to shoot threes. The rule changes have screwed defenses but it's the same thing it's the same thing with the nfl and we've talked about it it was like there was a time where only one quarterback has ever thrown for 4 000 yards now if you don't have a quarterback to throw for 4 000 yards it's embarrassing there's the only way to come back from 28-3 is if you're an offensive team like most of the times you would see all, oh, the Chicago Bears defense, the Ravens defense. You would see these defensive juggernauts, the Steelers. You'd see Seattle. All we need is a game manager at quarterback because we're going to load up

the defense and you're not going to score points. We're not going to turn the ball over. And as long as we would score 13 points, we're going to win. That shit ain't happening anymore. That's kind of what the Nets were like in the early 2000s. Oh, we used to joke that like- Especially when you got the Kembe. The NBA did not want us because we knew that the score was going to be in the 70s or 80s. What was that? The 03 Pistons Nets series. There were some ghastly games in that series. I think it was a triple overtime we played against them. And it was a triple overtime

and we might've scored 90 points. But that's the way it was a triple overtime and we might have scored 90 points. Yeah. It was just, but that's the way it was. I remember I went to a Celtics-Pistons game. It was 66-64 final playoffs. Wow. That was the final. Well, you remember the old like jazz,

the jazz bulls where it was like they had like third, they had 50 points at the end of the game and you're just like- It's better now, but I do agree with you. I miss watching just old school fast breaks, two guys in the wing get to the rim. The old three on two drill.

I think it's not great for ratings. I think it really is. I think everything, understand that we're in sports and entertainment. Threes are more entertaining. Dunks are more entertaining. The ratings were good last year, but you also had some of the most giant stars in the world all on the same teams.

It would be interesting if it's You also had some of the most giant stars in the world all on the same teams. Yeah, all on the same teams. It would be interesting if it's, let's say, Golden State and whoever, and it's not the same kind of star power. I'd be interested to see what the rating is. I'm saying if you don't make it. Or Cleveland and whoever. How about you suggest they don't make it? I'm making all suggestions.

Don't do that. No, no, no, no. You changed it up really quickly. Don't change that. Well, I'm rooting against you. OK. Plus, you traded Kyrie to my no. You changed it up really quickly. Don't change that. Well, I'm rooting against you. Okay. Plus, you traded Kyrie to my team. Will you stop saying, okay, whatever, the team.

I feel like they ran it by you. I think they said, like, Richard, what do you think? Should we get rid of him? I'm going to be really honest. As far as I know, I could have been playing in Boston. You could have been a throw-in. I have definitely a throw-in. A throw-in.

We would have loved you. It probably would have been a throw-in. I have definitely a throw-in. Like, a throw-in. We would have loved you. It probably would have been a throw-in and a buyout. Like, eh, we know you. We have no desire for you. So I'm just glad I still have a job. If you had been thrown in, there would have been a whole day of media stories about he was here in the 2002 playoffs as a baby. And now he's back. I will say this.

I am 3-0 versus your team in the playoffs. I know. Yeah. And it's convincing 3-0. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, last year, Isaiahaiah was hurt so it's tough you would have won anyway but 12 and three right in boston yeah or no just versus the celtics this is now this is but i've never really been into the booing throwing stuff at me that's yeah that that that can affect so who threw that the celtics crowd threw stuff oh they were throwing pennies they were they were they were they behavedies. They were. They behaved terribly.

It was going back. I don't think I've ever seen a professional sports crowd. Like, you know, when they get the, what is it? What did they say? Like, fuck you. Or like our referee. They do something. And it's like people are, you know, the announcer's always having to fill up the airtime.

Well, you know, the crowd here is a little ruckus right now. They don't agree with the call. And you're just like. It wasn't great. There was a lot of pent-up frustration because the Boston sports scene had been in a swoon. And people really wanted it. A swoon? Yeah, they hadn't won anything for like 16 years.

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Back in the day. Back in the day. In 02. Yes. And I think people behaved badly. They wanted it too bad. And even to fight the conspiracy theorists out there,

I just want to let people know the Lakers were waiting on the other end. The Lakers were waiting. So everyone was like, oh, they want, when they came back from the 24 down or whatever, they're like, oh, it's going to be Celtics-Lakers, Celtics-Lakers. The NBA is so, so big. Nobody wanted the Nets. Nobody wanted the Nets.

And honestly, we had no business being there. It was a weird time for the league, though. It was, but I'm just saying, though, I don't know. Show me another team that will win 26 games, not have a number one pick. I was the 13th pick, so I was the highest pick on our team. Have a bunch of guys that have never been in the playoffs show up with Jason Kidd or a high-level player in a trade and then go to the conference finals, right? Or I mean, go to the NBA finals.

Well, it's a good example of roster building though, right? Yeah. K-Mart was the number one pick in a bad draft, but he was still number one pick. Yeah. J-Kid was in the top four, but they were able to steal him. Yeah. You, they still own a trade. Dikembe, they get mid-season.

He used to be, I think he was the first or second pick. And that's really how to, if you can't get a lottery pick, you got to get smart and try to grab blue chippers from anywhere you can. It was the last time Rod Thorne did anything right. Hi, Rod. Taking a break to talk about stamps.com, my old friend. Convenient, easy, reliable, flexible. Those are four of my favorite words to describe stamps.com.

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Back to Richard Jefferson. Tell me about the 0-4 Dream Team quickly. Because that was like the nadir of basketball before Steve Nash and the threes and all that stuff changes. It was awful. Everybody, nobody liked each other. No, we all got along but the thing is it's like we we changed the we changed the scope or not the scope but we changed the the way they handled usa basketball right so i was on the o3 team remember

do you remember the debacle that happened in indiana in the world championships so then they were like okay we can't have 13 superstars on the same team. Let's bring in a couple of young players. So it was myself, I think Nick Collison, Emeka Okafor. Let's bring in a couple of young guys. We'll kind of groom them like guys that we feel like could be future players and then we'll have nine guys. So these three guys will not play, but they'll be here and we feel like they can be kind of the future so we played argentina right in the world championships all right not the world championships but in the no no no in the americas the year before we are up by 40 against argentina right the next year right they take nine guys off of our team nine guys said no ray allen said no. Ray Allen said no. Elm Brand said no.

Karl Malone said no. Jason Kidd said no. Mike Bibby said no. Vince Carter said no. Tracy McGrady said no. And then they add all these veterans with multiple all-stars and a little bit of experience. They add me, who has no USA experience. They add D. Wade, who was a rookie or second year.

He's a baby, yeah. Carmelo. LeBron and Carmelo. Carmelo. Amari Stoudemire stefan mob like all these guys that had zero experience and then they say go win and they're like oh they don't care and we were murdered by the media they're like they don't care they don't this and blah blah it's like no like we just don't like none of us have any experience in this well they also they made the

mistake of not giving you guys the distributor point guard guy. No. It was like two shirt first point guards. We didn't even really have shooters. LeBron was not LeBron. No, he was a baby. Yeah. And so I look at it

and so now they have the USA Select team where guys will go and work out together for a few, get to know each other. Like I'm literally introducing myself

for the first time two weeks before the Olympics. And then Larry Brown was the worst possible coach that we could have ever had. He was the worst possible coach. I'm not saying he's not an accomplished coach. He's not a hall of fame coach. He was bad in the board, that team, they couldn't have picked a worse coach. And he really resented the young guys. He resented the young guys and he wanted to he wanted to make that olympics

about teaching the next generation how to play basketball the right way versus that was part of the reason why nine guys said no is because they were like yeah i don't need this shit right right they were like they're looking at this and it's like do i really want to spend my entire summer where there's going to be a lot of pressure right but do i really want to spend my entire summer playing for this guy and that's and so you know no one wanted to do that. Again, I know people are going to take clips from this conversation because I just know how this goes. He's a great coach. He is a Hall of Fame coach. He wasn't a good coach that summer, though. But he was the worst possible coach that we could have had for that team.

I like how you know how this goes. Oh, I do know. I know how it goes. I know how it goes. We did, I did a KD two weeks ago. We did a mailbag, and there was 14 different news stories from it. People just grabbed it and threw it out. KD slams Under Armour, all these things. Oh, that Under Armour thing was amazing. Congratulations on that. Just trying to have a conversation.

I never look at that stuff. I love having people come in who have been in games, who have played with different guys, getting opinions like you're talking about lebron like you played with lebron when he was was even 19 at that point 20 maybe 20 19 maybe 19 or 20 because he was fresh out i think it was his first or second year could you see like oh yeah the seeds at least i could see that i could see the defensive aspect of him like his, the way he was chasing people around screens. He was still kind of a pedestrian, 6'7", and 240 pounds.

He wasn't the 6'9", and a half, like two, whatever. Is that how tall you think he is now? He's big. I think he's 6'9". I'm 6'7". He's a legit couple inches. He's a legit 7'2". Katie's 100% 7' tall. The only person I will ever say legitimately makes LeBron look on the shorter side

is when he stands next to Katie. Yeah. And LeBron's two inches taller than me, and they had my old ass out there trying to chase him around. Who's shorter than they claim? Anybody that you were surprised by? I'm surprised by how small Russell Westbrook is. You think he's like 6'2"?

No, no, no. But even then, the way he plays, if you look at him, you would think the guy is 6'7". On TV, he seems, yeah. Like, just the aggression, like, his ability to finish over top of people. Like, people, like, the lane will clear when he gets his one-two step going. Right. And you just assume, and then you see the guy.

Vince was another guy. Vince is only about 6'5", right? Yeah. And that's just, again, a compliment to him. But, yeah, you see these guys, and you're just assume, and then you see the guy. Vince was another guy. Vince is only about 6'5", right? And that's just, again, a compliment to him. But yeah, you see these guys, and you're just like, yo, Russ is only like 6'4", 6'3", 6'4"? Yeah. And the dude's up there dunking at the top of the square. And then conversely, Steve Nash is like a surprising 6'3".

Manu Ginobili. Manu Ginobili is a 6'6". Oh, like a legit 6'6"? Yeah, a legit 6'6". You look at Manu, he's like, okay, that explains your ability to do just different things. He doesn't have very long arms, but usually you're like, yo, he's a 6'6'' two guard with handles. That's impressive. You start to get around this league, and you see guys, or you spend a little bit of time with them,

and you're just kind of surprised at whatever their dimensions are, like their height, how long their arms are. Like Rudy Gobert, I played with him his rookie year in Utah and longest arms. Him and DeAndre Jordan, what they can do and the kind of range of things that they

can do from their size is impressive. I did the draft when he got drafted and he went like 27th and then they traded him for cash. And we were just like, yeah, all right, whatever. Like we had no idea. Oh, he's just like some random tall shop. I'll tell you this.

One of the best things about Rudy is that he believes in himself. Yeah. Right. He, you can say he's got some swag. Say this about a French guy and maybe it's part of the French confidence that I would see. I think it's definitely part of it. It's definitely. And Tony and I would see this.

It was like you would see the guy and he was going down to the D League and he was coming up. He wasn't just like a staple there. But it was like there was something about his confidence that he believed in himself. Yeah. Where it was like we would try and get him to do like these little bullshit rookie things. And he would be like, all right, I'm going to do this, but only once. And you're just like, I don't mind that. I don't mind that. But no, he was, he was a, I'm not surprised at all after being around him for an entire year that he's as good as he, as he is right now.

Do you think people don't realize, I personally think people don't realize how good Hayward is because he was on Utah. Oh, he's really good. I was always kind of down on him. That's like his ceiling. And then last year, he won me over even before the Celtics thing. This guy's just great. He's really good. He's very complete.

He's a very complete player. His biggest problem, and so we text every now and then, or more I text him. He's just very unselfish, right? Yeah, like too unselfish. Way too unselfish. I've sent him stats on other players before. And I'm like, dude, if you aren't an all-star, it's because you are not being aggressive enough. I don't care if you miss three shots in a row.

Go look at the three-point percentage of X amount of players. And they're just going to keep going, right? Keep going. Because especially in that Utah system where it was like when you had George Hill at your point guard or you had shooters around him, if he didn't get the shot off, like two or three passes, someone else was shooting it. It wasn't like a guy where you were just going to throw the ball into the post and go, he was just a guy that just needed to be more aggressive. But as far as you try and find one hole in his game, there is no hole in his game.

And I have a lot of respect for how hard he's worked and his approach to the game, how unselfish he is and how he plays the right way. But his lack of aggression would be the only hole he can handle. He defends his ass off. He will play the extra play, shoot. He does everything. What does Kevin Love need to do to be one of the top 12 guys in the league again? Because I have a lot of Kevin Love stock. People

were selling it the last couple of years. I've been buying it left and right. I think Kevin is in a very, very tough spot because, again, it's different now. And we'll see because the dynamic of our team has changed. But they're going to have to rely on his offense but but but he still averaged 20 and 10 like you can average 20 and 10 as the quote-unquote you know third third guy because he doesn't have the ball in his hands yeah LeBron has the ball Kyrie has a ball and then Kevin so like those were our our horses right and everyone else had to kind of fit in around them I I think the fact that a guy can average 20 points a game and average close to 10 rebounds when you have LeBron, who's always going to get seven rebounds.

You have Tristan out there trying to eat up rebounds, who's trying to get a double-double. And the fact that Kev can still go get 10 rebounds a night on our team where we're winning a lot of games, there's going to be blowouts where you're not sitting. It's a compliment to him. I don't think people look at everything from the entire scope of who he plays with

that allows them to see his impact on the game. One more break to talk about LegalZoom. When you run your own business, you know that time equals money and it's not just an old saying, it's a fact. So why waste your valuable time dealing with issues that LegalZoom can help you with now? Over 2 million people have used LegalZoom

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LegalZoom.com. Back to Richard Jefferson. Is social media good or bad for NBA players? Great. It's great. Because you got a lot of people pointing out your faults too. Not you, but just anybody who points out.

Oh, it's great because I'm not on it. Okay. So I only benefit from it. Because like I said, because of the podcast, like that was the first time I opened up an Instagram and I opened up a Twitter was because to try and socially allow people to know that we were putting out podcasts. Yeah. So you stumbled into that back of the van. How many have you done? We've done like 45. You and Channing. Me and Channing. Yeah. Me and Channing. That's my guy.

And I, like we didn't, how does it get better this season? How does it get better this season? I think because we're better at it. There's some things that we want to do. And we, again, the first time we did it, we did it with a mic in a wine glass. And we like four of us huddled around it and all talk. It took us about five episodes before I went out and bought headphones. So like the sound wasn't crazy.

And I think for Channing, because both his parents passed away last year. And I think this happened as something to, you know, take his mind off of things and just allow him to not just be in his room all the time by himself. And I think that's one of the reasons why our team is so good, because we do spend so much time together. Like he was at my house when he found out about his mom passing away. And, you know, I think the podcast opened those doors for us to kind of spend a little bit more time

and so he wouldn't be alone. And I think it'll get better because we have new teammates. I have an unfair advantage that you don't. I'm on the plane every single day with these guys. And nobody realizes how much spare time you guys have on the road. No one does. It's not like you can go out. You're just going to get bothered.

That's the thing. LeBron can't go anywhere. He's in a hotel suite or a bus. Yeah, exactly. Or a plane. But that was why we started it. It was like, yeah, we have nothing else to do. Why not do this?

So again, I'm looking forward to getting IT on. I'm looking forward to getting Jay on, Jeff Green. And again, I don't know if they'll come on. Derek Rose. Derek Rose. They'll all come on. You can wear them down over time on the bus. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out

how I can make this like a mandatory thing what about yeah maybe that's a prize in cards a prize in cards like yo you gotta come who's the cards game

who runs the cards game we haven't really been playing cards that much the last few years I don't like to hear that yeah no no they have they'll play a little bit

they'll get a little bit in it but I'm a movie guy more so so you're putting the headphones on definitely put the headphones on? Definitely put the headphones on. Were you worried that Channing was going to get traded? Because he was in about 450 different fake trades that people were making.

I think Channing was more worried. I think Channing was more worried. Does the pod go away if that happens? Well, I don't know. They do it on the phone. No, I'm going to say this. I enjoy this. I have a lot of respect for you.

Thank you. The pardon my take, guys. Like, I want to get into broadcasting at some point in time in my career. So the fact that I- I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, the fact that I stumbled on this at this point in time- So who's your role model? My role model?

Your man, Jalen? No, I would say Michael Strahan. Michael Strahan is my- Oh, you're thinking bigger? I like that. Yeah, Michael Strahan is my- Wow, you're thinking Good Morning America. Yeah. Michael Strahan. Wow. You're thinking Good Morning America. Yeah. But I just think that, I think Michael did something that

has never been done. I think he transcended sports. I think he went on something, you know, even I would say the Kelly and Michael thing was huge, right? That he was able to do that. And I knew Michael from, you know, just casually through being in New York at the same time. And I remember seeing him, I'm like, dude, congratulations, man. That's so awesome. Because for an African-American, for an athlete, for a guy that to, to, to be able to do those things. And then not only go from the Michael and Kelly, cause he started off in football. Then he went Kelly and Michael, excuse me. And then it's a good morning America. Like you're on like the most watched morning show. There's more, I think he's on a game show. Yeah. But he's,

but, but he's got like seven gigs, but that's, what's so impressive about him. And if I had to say, you know, as a basketball player growing up, I watched Michael Jordan and I watched, uh, magic Johnson. Those are my favorite players. If I, in the next part of my career, if that's what I want to do, like Michael Strahan would be the guy that you know I I would just be like wow how how do you get to that level congratulations on what you've done so how many more years do you play then uh I know you get that question a lot yeah I do because I've retired I actually thought you were gonna retire last year I should have no no I'm kidding you got one more if they need you I'm gonna play this year I'm gonna. You got one more. They need you. I'm going to play this year. I'm going to play this year. And then my goal.

So how many years is that then? This is 17. This is my 17th season. 17's impressive. I have no idea. For a wing guy, usually it's only centers at that point. And centers and point guards can squeak it out. I would want to play one more year,

and then I will 100% probably retire after that. And then you settle here and try to do TV, audio, all that kind of stuff? Try and do something, man. I wouldn't mind keeping the podcast going and doing that. I was given some advice that I should start writing by somebody at ESPN. They were like, you should start writing, right? Again, I don't. And I'm more just saying, I'm more asking this because this is your forte. Like that is what you do. I think you're in a good spot. Why? You know what's funny?

Give me some advice. So 12 years ago, I became obsessed by Jalen, ironically. Yeah. And I was watching. I just thought he was really funny. And I pitched this idea to ESPN to give Jalen a show in his hotel rooms. Yeah. On the road.

I'd be like, we'll call it the Jalen Rose Show. We'll pull whatever we'll pull where, whatever cities is in, just pull a player from another team. Yeah. Do it like almost like Wayne's world, like those old weird. Yeah.

And it just say they, they want to know part of it. What you and Channing are doing is kind of like what I always thought would work. I just want to like get people like us just want to be on the road with you guys. What are you talking about? Oh,

LeBron popped in. Yeah. Like, I think that works. At least for this year, you stick with that. And then after that, I mean... And when I say writing, it's more of just because I really want to learn everything

I can about the trade. It's not just sports. Well, really, you should write a book if you're going to write. But again, let's start with... Do a journal of your last year on the road. Of my last year? Yeah, because you a journal of your last year. My last year. Yeah. Cause you guys have so much spare time. We have come on from Ruth Chris at two in the morning.

Yeah. Just write, just write a dissertation. Yeah, no, I, that's actually a really good idea. You've crossed paths with so many interesting major,

major stars. I mean, even right now you're playing with LeBron might be his last year in Cleveland. Who knows? But his 16th year. Yeah. Seven straight finals. It's crazy.

No, it's crazy. It's like being a member of the Beatles or something. I've been so, so blessed to play with so many great players in my generation. And the one thing that you always look back on your career and you're like, oh, I would have done this differently. I would have done this differently. I would have done that differently. But the one thing that I can say is that I can look at all of this and all the players, whether it's Dirk, Jason Kidd, Dikembe, Alonzo, Kenyon, guys, we'll see what Gordon and Rudy, even the newer guys. And just to be able to try and give all of that knowledge to the next generation coming

up, I think would be fun. You've also lived in a couple of the strangest NBA cities just for a basketball player to live. You did Utah. You did- Milwaukee. Where'd you live in New Jersey? Or were you in New York City? I lived in the city. Come on now. Smart move. Cleveland. People ask me all the time, what's Cleveland like? And I'm going to be really honest. One,

congratulations to the Indians. The Indians are fucking on fire. 21, 21 and around am i allowed to cuss on this podcast yeah okay cool uh so they're good for them i don't think they have a game tonight but good for them and and i can't wait to get back and support them uh in their run for another world series and hopefully a championship but it's so awesome being in cleveland i i will say this their fans are crazy it's so awesome game three i. I will say this. Their fans are crazy. It's so awesome. Game three, I was like, I fear for my life if they don't win this game. It was so awesome. And Cleveland fans are so amazing. They've supported the podcast like no other. And I have so much, like my son, Phoenix, was born in Cleveland. So I have a guy that now is a part of the Cleveland connection.

But I love it. People are like, oh, what's Cleveland like? And I'm like, well, we have a different view because we won a championship and we're on the team. Well, you're also older and your life is a little more settled. When you're older, you end up, especially if you have kids, you're home more often. If you were 24, who knows? Yeah, no, no. It might have been a different experience. But again, if you win a championship in a town, the town, you're golden.

Anywhere you go, it's awesome. It's fun. Especially that town. Yeah, and they're so supportive, man. My wife tries to hide. She'll not tell people her last name or something, and then all of a sudden, she'll take little Richard to a jump around play date.

And I'm like, oh, Mrs. Jefferson. And they're like, oh, so what does your husband do? Ah, he doesn't do anything. Hey, little Richard, come here. And it's like, they just put it together. Oh, Richard Jefferson. There he is. I think you have one last year after this year, you play for Luke Walton for one year. I think that's how this ends. You move out here, you dabble in the TV audio. Luke can yell at you a couple of times. You could be like his mole in the locker room. I think it makes the most sense. I, you know,

we'll see. I have no idea what I'm going to do. I will say Luke is such a dick. Like he, he, he would probably just, he would just kill me. And just like,

he might like, he would call me one week, like, Hey Rich, we like to bring you in for a workout. And then the next, like, yeah,

I think we're going to go a different way. And then not sign me. Like he would just do something like, so are you sure you want to come here? Or, Hey, I think, no, no, I don't know. It, that would be, And then not sign me. Like he would just do something like, so are you sure you want to come here? Or, hey, I think, no, no, I don't know. That would be- I think that'd be weird to play with one of your best friends

or for one of your best friends. You know, I think it would be awesome from the standpoint of this. And I don't know what's going to happen, but I played with T. Lou. I knew Mark Jackson. I played Mark Jackson. I played against Mark.

And then, you know, because Mark Jackson was, he was a commentator for the Yes Network. So like he used to be on our plane and we played cards and cracked jokes. Like five years later, he's like my coach. I think Luke is a great coach. I've known the kid since I was 17 years old. I think he's a great mind. I think he cares about the game. He's been around it. He was never in the NBA because of his, you know his physical ability or his approach to things. No, he stayed around for 10 years because he loved the game. He thought the game.

He played it the right way. He was a great teammate. I think he's got all the tools to be a great coach. So from that standpoint, I think it would be a really, really cool cap if you got to experience something like that. Maybe at age 44 when you retire. Yeah, yeah. Like seven years from now.

Yeah, but I don't know if it would be as fun for Luke. I was, 2003 ESPN the magazine, I had a big piece about why Luke Walton's going to be a good pro. Really? Yeah. Was that? It was like a 700 word ESPN the magazine column,

like, hey everybody, Luke Walton's going to be good and he's going to be in the NBA for a while. And he was. And he was. And he was. He was too smart not to have a career. And one of the things that people, oh, you were a bum. It's like, you don't understand how good you going to be in the NBA for a while. And he was. He was good. And he was. He was too smart not to have a career. And one of the things that people, oh, you were a bum. It's like, you don't understand how good you have to be just to suck in the NBA.

Like, how good? Like, Brian Scalabrini, like, you know, I play with him. We got drafted together. He had his famous game with you against the Pistons. Yeah, against the Pistons. Was it triple or quadruple? Triple. Yeah, triple.

So people foul out. He steps in and hits like five threes and so but it was like people understand it's like he might not have ever played in 82 games because he got so many dmps but the fact that he played for 10 years in this league won a championship and i think he went to multiple nba finals or conference finals because i think he went with chicago and it's like you don't understand if you got the ring in 08 yeah if brian scalabrini has done so well for himself and we look at this as a job so it's like oh you were bum you weren't any good it's like do you know how hard you have to work to not be a high level guy and to make it

10 years that's a possible path for you like Scal has reinvented himself now in Boston yeah as this he does the games he's like he's like the guy. Yeah. People's champ. You could do that. That could be a Phoenix thing for you. I wouldn't mind or whatever. I wouldn't mind. All right. I'm always here for advice. Oh, Richard Jefferson. So I have like four podcasts. Plug my past guys, road tripping podcast. Uh, you can go download it on anything iTunes, but yeah, let me know. Awesome. This was great. Thank you. My pleasure pleasure thanks again to richard thanks to c geek thanks to the ringer.com don't forget my column is up for week two nfl picks mailbag stuff whole bunch of things thanks to simply safe do you know what the average property loss from just one home

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Enjoy it, share it with your friends Enjoy the weekend We'll be back on Monday Guest Alliance, week three, Cousin Sal, coming up See ya I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.