The Bill Simmons Podcast - RIP Bill Walton. Plus, Minnesota Avoids a Sweep, a Towns Semi-Redemption, and Best Backcourts With J. Kyle Mann.

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by J. Kyle Mann to discuss the Timberwolves avoiding a sweep by winning Game 4 in Dallas, what happened to home-court advantage in the NBA, "best NBA backcourt ever" debates, Celtics speculation, and more (1:44). Finally, Bill remembers the great Bill Walton for his incredible college exploits, his Hall of Fame NBA career, and his unique and joyous approach to basketball and life (1:04:11). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: J. Kyle Mann Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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when placing an NBA bet. Maybe for the finals, we can collaborate on something really good because the finals is starting Thursday, June 6th. I'm going to talk about Mavericks-Timberwolves Game 4, best backcourts, and a whole bunch of stuff with J. Kyle Mann. And then at the end,

we're going to talk about the one and only Bill Walton. That's next. First, our friends from ProJab. All right, taping this 815 on Tuesday night. Dallas had a chance to sweep Minnesota. They did not. The Timberwolves. It was a classic Timberwolves game.

J. Kyle Mann is here. We got the full-fledged Timberwolves experience. We had some knucklehead fouls. We had some dumb turnovers. We had an awful challenge. We had some really stilted shot selection late. And yet none of it mattered. They played good defense. They made a couple stops.

They made a couple shots. They win the game. Now it is 3-1 heading back to Minnesota. Kyle, considering they could have won all four of these games and they're down 3-1, like this feels like a closer 3-1 than I think the usual 3-1, right? Yeah, I feel a little queasy about it because I'm like, you didn't really get great games from Ant

and Cat in the first three. And we kept just kind of waiting around. Rob and I were texting about, I was like, the Ant game is surely coming. We're going to get some semblance of a good game. Tonight, he was 11 for 25, two for five from three, picked his spots, 10 rebounds and nine assists. He had a lot of the pass before the pass kind of plays. He didn't necessarily make the pass, the home run pass, basically, the way Luka frequently does. Overall,, overall, I thought, I mean, we'll talk about Cat. It seemed like their athleticism was a little bit more impactful in some key spots. There's some other stuff at Dallas.

But yeah, I mean, it seemed like they were spinning plates throughout this game to keep the offense going. You never really felt like, well, that's just something they're going to over and over again every single time. But they managed to get a big enough game out of Cat to kind of, not as much Nas' game, but a big enough game out of Cat to seal the deal. Yeah, some timely town shots. Yeah, I was trying to figure out what they were doing

because they were playing a little freer and a little looser. They spread the floor better for Ant. They were doing a little 3-1 action with him. And he took 25 shots, 8 free throws, and just in general felt more involved. They have some of the same trouble the Celtics do when the Celtics go into fun, although in the

Indiana series they didn't do this. When it's late, they just go slow. The ball goes over midcourt, there's 17 seconds on the shot clock. They're dribbling 40 feet for the basket. There's like eight seconds left. You're like, go faster, faster, move, move, move.

But it worked out for them a couple of times. The big sequence was they're down one. And it felt like Dallas was going to do the Mariano Rivera closer on them again. And Townsend's two threes. The first one was like a no, no, yes, three. The second one, Edwards found him in the corner and that one you felt like that one was going in but they were up five and once they got that little cushion that was it we got to talk about towns because this was when we send the towns

whatever hall of fame he ends up going to that's probably maybe maybe it's the basketball hall of fame but it's some other hall of fame too. It's like the frustrating Hall of Fame. My God, what a roller coaster ride Hall of Fame, whatever it is. You would send this game tape. He gets six fouls. All six were terrible fouls. There wasn't one like, oh, well, he can't blame him on that one. These were fouls.

There was fouls at midcourt. He's fouling Luka on threes from 28 feet uh each time he didn't think it was a foul there was an over the back there was uh over the back he played the hits it really was like i was saying it really was arguably his magnum opus in terms of dumb fouls and then he caps it off with a foul in a closeout game like really like just what are you doing and then the way he was pleading about it and arguing about it, you were like, what are you doing?

Like, you know you fouled him. Like, I don't even know what he was arguing about. Like, it was a clear foul, and Luka baited him right into it, man, and he took the bait, yeah. Towns is the Michael Jordan of complaining in disbelief on a foul that then they show the replay, and it's like, oh, yeah, that's clearly a foul.

Like, he gets his six foul. Luca does the, uh, little baits him into the double pump and then leans into him on the three at the top of the key and towns crashes into him. Then he's just in disbelief. They called it, but I got to say he had some big rebounds in the second half and traffic. There was a point where I felt like maybe Finch just leaves him in and just has him

foul out naturally to get him out of the game versus like having to bench him. It's like, oh, well, you know, you got six fouls, you can't play anymore. But, um, you know, there was a moment during the second quarter, I was making up town straight traits because I knew we had the pot tonight. Oh, I was too. I was going to ask you about this. I was like, does the Nas ascendance affect the way we feel about this? You know? Because it was just like, it did seem like there was a little correlation between when

Nas would get out there, when they would play with that quote-unquote, heavy quote-unquote smaller lineup. But I was wondering that too. I was going to ask you about that. Towns, it feels like, should have more advantages in this series than he does, right? He's basically bigger than everyone on the Timberwolves who's not a center. He can't really post up with his back to the basket. When he tries to post up somebody like PJ Washington, it doesn't really work out well. So it's a lot of like on the perimeter stuff,

and they know that's coming and they're just kind of sticking with them. It feels like there should be more advantages for him in this series than there is. But I think this speaks to why Towns is such a strange player. Like he's somebody that, you know, averaged 25 and 10 during his career. And yet a lot of it is like this perimeter based

or put back shots, but doesn't, he never really developed that. Let me at least get on the right block and I can spin into the lane and do my little jump hook. Like he just doesn't seem to have that arsenal in games like this, which is weird. He's 28 years old. Early in his career, he had a little bit of that, like either shoulder kind of, you know, jump hook thing going on. Yeah. Like a Duncan-ish thingish thing right like just a little bit but it's it's gone it was pretty simple you know you'd see him get a little of that like back to the basket sort of fade thing but i mean playing with gobert i think makes some of that a little bit tougher because you're always going to have somebody kind of you know sagging into the gap to bother those types of shots and then uh the big thing i think for him is just that since he

hadn't been shooting the ball super well you know he'd been sort of attacking from so far. Dallas had done such a good job of making him start further from the basket. And Cat is like a one or two dribble repertoire type guy. He's not like put together two or three, four dribble type things. When you get him in, I mean, he had some amazing plays against Denver too down the stretch where he was attacking off of like two dribbles and getting, and he's so big and he does finish with some, you know, angularity fairly well.

But I think when you push him out there and you make him dance a little bit, he just becomes a little more clumsy and indecisive and picks up stupid fouls. But when he started shooting the ball well, you saw PJ go like,

shit, I'm going to have to close on this guy. And then that's when he kind of has a well, you saw PJ go like, shit, I'm going to have to close on this guy. And then that's when he kind of has a little more leverage and is a little bit more effective. I can't say I've been knocked out by Minnesota strategizing. General kind of the mental stuff that goes into playoff games

and like kind of shooting yourself in the foot. Some of the coaching stuff, some of the lineups they've had, even the stuff they figured out in this game. I'm not sure why they didn't figure out that stuff like after game one. Some of the stuff they tried to do with Luka. Putting Ant on Luka, which seems...

Yeah, a little less Jaden on Ant was like... There was just like a real stinky vibe of frustration when Jaden was on Luka because Luka just had his number. He negated all of his strengths. And with Ant, Ant had a couple gambles at times that are tough with Luka. But overall, you just didn't see as much of that. I thought Luka was insanely aggressive in that first quarter,

like offensively, like with his dribble pull-up game. But yeah, yeah. The Ant thing was working a little bit better. But yeah, they went to that maybe a little too late, honestly. Luka was 7 for 21. He still ended up with a 28, 15, and 10. And I didn't even feel like he played that well. He made a crazy, what seemed to be a four-point play

when they're down 103-97 with less than 20 seconds left and gets fouled on a three, which somehow goes in, and then missed the free throw. I knew he was going to miss that. I don't know why. I just had a feeling. You could just sense it, that it was going to happen. I don't know. Yeah. And then Kyrie sucked tonight too he was 6 for 18 four turnovers and you know this is this is pretty easy to reduce this series to the Kyrie and Luca points versus the Towns and points but this was the first time they won the battle and that coincidentally they won the game can we talk a little Luca here absolutely did anything that happened in the last four weeks changed how you felt about him as a star and what his ceiling was? Or do you feel like this is stuff he's just been doing all along? It's just finally on a bigger stage. Well, I had him number four in the young player rankings and I just wanted to get that. That's a joke.

What were those young player rankings? I was getting texts. I'm like, I didn't even know what that was. Yeah, that was just to stay off the internet day. Anyway, I don't know. I don't really feel like I need to defend my stance on Luka. I've been pretty, pretty. Go watch my first Luka video on my old channel if anybody wants to litigate my feelings on him.

I'm sometimes too far on Luka. I think he's yeah incredible um uh wait what what about luca specifically i mean like oh did my feelings change like the last four weeks did anything change about what you had already thought um i mean i thought he was like in the top three in the world for sure uh and you know he's kind of hovered in that top three to five range but like you know the movement of some of these guys not being able to, out of sight, out of mind with Steph a little bit. LeBron's aged out.

Durant has kind of moved out of that. And you've seen Jokic and Doncic kind of move forward. I still had Jokic as the best player in the world. But, I mean, Luka's right there. So, honestly, no, not really. I mean, I've had a lot of respect for his game, and that hasn't really changed much at all in the past four weeks. He's just, I mean, what, what more do we need to see from him? I mean, he's already, he's already done it in big playoff

stages to this point. So, you know, the finals would be nice, but no, I haven't had a huge shift. He's going to be an unbelievable, assuming it's going to be Mav Celtics, unless we have the biggest comeback in the history of basketball. He's going to be an unbelievable villain. I was on some text threads with some Celtic fan friends and we're just all ready. We're just ready to be annoyed by this guy for two weeks. Even today, I would say the Mavs actually got a more favorable whistle than Dallas in this game. Everybody in Minnesota felt like they were in foul trouble at one point. And Luka still, every time they go to a timeout, he's going under the rat,

and it looks like he's pleading with a meter made not to put the ticket on the car. It's just his demeanor. I think it's going to go over great in Boston. He is, oh no, it's going to go terribly. He's going to get razzed, yelled, heckled. People are going to hate him how many how many shut the fuck ups per game do you think you're gonna get in that boston accent for

hey luca shut up shut the hell up luca does the luca does the ultimate uh he does the ultimate masterful thing where when he gets calls he complains and pouts he does the thing like he's just like oh like finally it's like really man come on and i think a funny thing about this series is just the the sort of hand fighting that has been allowed to go on that has been to minnesota's advantage to this point like that colliding with the way that luca plays i think has just created so many more of these moments and it yeah i agree with you it it has at times felt like Minnesota's gotten a tough whistle, but that's just the,

Luka drags you into the mud and like that's the way he plays. And he knows that when guys get out of position, he knows how to create the contact, how to make it look a certain way. He finishes through contact. He just doesn't let you off the hook ever basically with that stuff.

Yeah, and everything is so purposeful. Whereas you're watching Edwards at age 22, and it's such a work in progress. Like today, he's like, I have to get to the rim or my team's going to lose. And he's like, I'm going to try to get to the rim. Oh, they blocked me. I'm going to dribble back out.

I'm going to wait five seconds. I'm going to try to get to the rim again. That's not there either. I'm going to spin back. I'm going to try to get to the rim again. And it was like watching the super early Jordan tapes from like 87, 88, or like watching Kobe in the first few years where they knew what they had to do, but they didn't have the whole toolbox yet to do what they needed to do. So it was just like, I am going to use my athletic ability and I'm going to get to the rim and good

things will happen. And then occasionally, I think one of the things that makes him special is he'll just randomly pull out like just the gorgeous Tim Duncan, 15 foot bank shot, you know, and he'll just soar above. And it's just, so you can see like two, three years from now when he can combine like the pace with the acceleration and then he'll have the turnaround jumper in two years, that'll be in his bag. He'll have that bank shot. He'll probably have some sort of on the corner thing that he'll be able to do. He'll be able to shoot threes off picks better and it'll just be like five little small things

and he'll be at 30 points a game. Like he'll be a 30 points a game guy within two years, right? Yeah, I think that. I mean, you could kind of quibble about like how efficient he'll be doing that. But I think that he's done a lot better job um I think he's done a lot better job picking his spots I mean that was the main thing that really really worried me coming into the league and in his first season in the league but you kind of see I was talking with Kevin about

this on the on the draft show that like um you see scores like Ant come into the league and they have almost like I always, the comparison I make is they have like four by three aspect ratio with the way they see the court. They're like, I'm either going to score or I'm going to make this simple kind of pass to my guy.

And you kind of see them as they get older, expand out to 16-9 where it's like they can see the sort of width of the floor a lot better. And you're seeing Ant do that stuff. But I do think it's interesting to kind of compare them developmentally where it's like, I've been reflecting, you were talking about how has it shifted with Luka.

It's like, do we fully appreciate him? And I was just thinking back about when he came into the league and it's like, it is kind of absurd, especially looking at the lack of talent in this class and you look at the international guys, it is kind of absurd how much some people disrespected the quality of the euro league when like you consider like an 18 year old winning the mvp like how insane that is and just watching their processing speed ants athleticism gives him such a huge advantage to even get into the

conversation but it's like luca it just kind of shows you how far ahead luca is granny's a little older but like he was doing that stuff at he was doing a lot of those really really advanced reads at this age that ann is at now and uh i just think he's i think he's the best pick and roll player in the world i think he's i was telling you i think he's arguably the best ever you could kind of quibble about nash but um i i just think he's arguably the best ever. You could kind of quibble about Nash, but I just think he's a phenomenal, phenomenal talent. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough because in the seventies and eighties, they weren't thinking about setting screens that far away from the basket. Right. A lot of it, the big thing was like either the two man game or setting somebody a pick at like

the foul line because everything was so compacted you know and the three-point shot spread it out so sometimes i think you know there's so many guys from that era who would have been so interesting with the way basketball is played now um but he's he seems like the most unstoppable version of set me a pick 30 feet from the basket and the other team doesn't really know what to do they were talking today a lot on the telecast about Gobert kept like sagging off and Reggie and Stan Van Gundy didn't understand why he kept sagging off. But I think it was because they just decided they didn't want to give up that, uh,

that little like lob for the little eight foot or the roll or the dunk or whatever. And they were just basically like, let's just try to play good defense on Luca and stay near him and hope he misses some shots. I like the shots he took today. A lot of them just weren't going in. I'm not sure that strategy is going to work again in game five.

It's almost like in football where each series you got to switch the defense that you're throwing at them. So in game five, they're going to have to, you know, they can't run back the exact same thing. Cause these two get, he'll figure it out. Um, the one thing I felt like from a Dallas standpoint, they got like, they got this crazy Jaden Harden Hardy stretch. I think they were about to lose by like double figures. And then Jaden Hardy had this

really crazy, awesome stretch that kind of pulled them, kept them kind of lingering around in the game because they weren't playing that well. On the road, you're not getting those, you're not getting the Jaden Hardy taking over the game for four minutes, I don't think. Yeah, yeah. The young guy gets beer muscles and feels a little bit bigger. But Hardy's a guy who's just like historically always had crazy, crazy confidence. He did, he did a good job. I will say on court, he did a good job of like not overdoing it. I felt like he maybe had one spot, maybe another where he did that. But like, I will say like, I know you're confident, but like, I don't know about barking at Anthony Edwards. Like, I don't know if that's the move. Um, I would maybe just kind of stay in my lane

a little bit. Like, don't. Even if you think you're better than him, just don't tempt fate there. That was a questionable move to me. I was like, I know it speaks to how confident he is that he would go and do that, but I don't know that I would have. Yeah, they probably told him after the game, listen, if you're going to talk shit, just talk shit to Rudy Gobert. That's what we're all doing. Just say stuff to him. Nobody likes Rudy Gobert. It'll be all fine. He's the pin cushion where we put all. What? Actually, let's take a break.

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Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. So when you watch Rudy in a series like this, and they're almost definitely going to lose because again, the only way for them to win

this series is to do something nobody's done in 150 plus series. Is Rudy somebody that you can win four straight playoff series with just in general with all the different styles of teams you have to play over the course of four rounds is it just conceivable that he's a guy who could be on a title team because i've changed my mind 20 times on this yeah i don't i don't know that i would blame him for this in particular because you know they they have other problems like you were talking about i own it i I honestly feel like you made a really good comparison, I think, with the Boston and Minnesota thing offensively because when the core of your team are guys that are sort of guys

with scoring tilt who are learning to playmake, you kind of run into these. Like Tatum and Brown both are like they've been learning on the job since they've been playing together to sort of learn to play that way it doesn't always come instinctively whereas you watch uh i was like prodding you the other night with the halliburton text about is he the best in the series that you mentioned i laughed at that but uh no i mean like like a halliburton or somebody when you have a guy like that at the core of your team you're not going to run into those problems as much so but so just to speak to rudy though, I think that it can happen.

It's just maybe he's just somebody that you have to be smart about when he's on and off the floor because Minnesota has kind of done that in spots. And you've seen that tonight his impact defensively was there. I think the fact that they didn't have Lively there as a lob threat when Gafford wasn't in there. Kyrie, you could see Kyrie was affected by Rudy, I think, in some pretty key moments. And this is, you know, whether or not it's this round

or it's the finals or the first round, this is a high, high-level matchup. And he affected the game in a positive way, I thought. In the short roll, he actually, you know, he actually had some pretty good moments, I thought. He wasn't required to, like, do anything, anything like heavy improv, but he finished pretty well, I thought. And yeah, it played within himself in that sense offensively, I thought. Well, he had been dirt had been poured on his entire career over the last two days. I was thinking about like the take seesaw on certain guys where if the seesaw, normally you want a seesaw that's a

little balanced and it goes a little up, a little down. And with Rudy, it's like one side of the seesaw is always in the ground. And then if it flips to the other side, it's back on the ground. He's either the defensive player of the year or he's the biggest liability in the league. And there's just no balance in the both. I actually thought some of the stuff towns did with him today, towns had a couple of nice little dishes to him on drives and, uh, you know, felt like they complimented each other, but, um, there's other times to me, it's on Minnesota. Like when he's 35 feet from the basket, trying to guard Luca, it's just not going to go well. And you, you know, if you see the reverse, like Dallas is really smart. Anytime they had somebody in a position that if you see the reverse, like Dallas is really smart.

Anytime they had somebody in a position that far away from the basket, they weren't happy with, they would just send a second guy out and then try to recover fast. And it felt like Minnesota really wasn't doing that that much until today. So who knows? They might, it feels like they're getting a little better. And then you think on the other side, Dallas seemed like they were getting a little worse. And some of the stuff the other side, Dallas seemed like they were getting a little worse. And some of the stuff that was working for them in the other games wasn't working as well. The big catch is that they didn't have Lively. I never thought we would be saying, like last fall, I never, ever thought that we would be having this conversation in a conference finals.

I liked Lively, but I'm shocked by this. Well, he was really polarizing. We were doing the draft pods, and I didn't follow College Hoops, so I'm leaning on you guys and studying YouTube clips. But Lively was the most polarizing guy in that top 12, because especially when he went to Dallas, I remember, was it you or was it KOC? Somebody was like, oh, that's actually like,

that's a team that plays to his strengths. That's a pretty good fit for him. But I mean, to think that he would be playing and somebody that could pass out of like those little lobs and just the creativity that he's had at that position for his age, I think has been unusual. So somehow they get rewarded for throwing away the season last year, which I still can't figure out. Yeah. When he was in high school, he got rated, I think, like people were projecting what he could be. Actually, like the shooting was something that was a piece of the puzzle for him that people thought he would shoot it eventually. And I'm not ruling that out, but I mean, it seems fairly unlikely, but like he, he just kind of defensively

looked lost at times, but the more that you leaned in and watched it, the kind of conclusion I came to was just that he was thinking so much that his reaction time was getting kind of negated, and you saw him sort of learn. And if you listen to the guy talk, he's a bright kid. I think that he just sort of had to learn to play high-level coverages and stuff. Is it possible, though, that some guys are just better with better teammates? Because I've always felt that way with basketball that we always forget that part that maybe like he was that

Duke team was a mess a year ago right yeah they didn't they didn't really Duke has had a few teams like this where they didn't have a ton of great creators like in terms of like guys who could score and get off the ball they had like a guy named Jeremy Roach who was like a scorer, didn't get off the ball. And then they had a guy named Tyrese Proctor who could pass, but he couldn't really score. So you just had these weird spacing issues on those teams that did penalize, you know,

somebody like him where he's not a table setter. He, he's a, he's somebody, he's a patron. He dines. And Luca obviously is the ultimate, you know,

three Michelin star chef. And he's, it couldn't have been uh i'm and i'm probably i'm sure i probably did say it on draft night but a lot of people did that like he he's a guy who can catch lobs he's very fast he's very he has really great hip mobility for a guy his size and i wrote about this in the rookie guide over and over again that like you just absolutely could not have picked a better partner for him coming into the league. But I think in this game, they did miss his short-roll decision-making in a way that I think Minnesota was like,

okay, we will give you a little bit of drop coverage here because we're not as worried about these lobs and we're not as worried about maybe Derrick Jones Jr. shooting threes or PJ shooting threes. And I think that affected them because you had to respect Lively in the middle of the floor. And I think that kind of took away from some of their easy buckets, honestly. So our friend Chris Lewinsky, who has done incredible stuff with concussions really since

the late 2000s and every once in a while I mention him. He had a tweet a couple of hours ago about Lively in this neck sprain thing in game three, because I watched and I was like, it was clear it was concussion. He was groggy after and looked like his brains had been scrambled. He had all the makings. If it happened in football, we were just like, that's concussion. Chris Nowinski tweeted just two hours ago, I don't believe the Derek Lively neck sprain story. In the NFL, that's a concussion. He couldn't stand for minutes. He's showing the clip that he has under the tweet. You can see he can't balance and would fall walking without help. NBA, please don't undo years of concussion education meant to protect kids. I thought from the evidence, it was really hard for me to believe that was a sprained neck

and you know I think I think maybe they were assuming that the series would be over but usually like a concussion like Jalen Brown had one for the Celtics and he wasn't right for over a week so we'll see like people seem to think he's come back game five

I don't know why they wouldn't tell us exactly what happened but I think you and I both had the same reaction. That's pretty clearly seemed like a concussion. I don't know how that wasn't a concussion. That was hard to watch, man. I can't imagine, like, getting hit. I mean, that's one of, like, you, I just don't, I don't know how he got up from that at all.

Like, I thought for sure concussion. Maybe they just, they said it's also a neck sprain. Maybe he really does have a neck sprain. He was on the bench today and it's bright in those arenas and he didn't have sunglasses on and was fine. Who knows? I don't really know the answer, but I thought that was a weird one. They're going to need him for game five. Minnesota, who has no home court advantage at all and you would think like, well, if anybody's going to come back from 3-0, it's a team that has five and seven at home. Because

you send it back, you win five. Then if you can somehow win six or put the other team in position to be on their heels in a game six at home, knowing they'd have to go back to your place in a game seven, that would be the sequence you'd want and yet minnesota sucks at home and everybody sucks at home we talked about this on uh the mahoney chris ryan pod that we did on thursday do you have a theory on why home court has gone out the window no honestly i don't i don't i don't understand what it's what it's about um it's maybe maybe it's just that like a lot of these arenas sound the same or that like i i honestly don't have any kind of idea that that maybe it's not as unique uh the way i mean you're a historian on this is there anything that's changed about the way they

set up the seats or you know i and i feel like there aren't as many like unique kind of quirks like i feel like that stuff's all like audited really well like the the weird milwaukee bucks court like in the late 70s like you don't see anything like that really anymore people would always complain about like the the omni didn't people used to say that the omni was like kind of drafty in there that like right i just feel like i feel like everything is kind of that's true in a lot of different ways i just think pink things have just kind of become homogenized maybe and that's why it just doesn't feel as, I don't know. I'm grasping for straws for why it's happening.

I think that's a, that's a decent reason. Like they say about the old Boston garden, like there was dead spots on the parquet, you know, people would smoke at halftime. The whole place is filled with smoke. You had cheaper seats.

So you had, the crowd was pretty close to the court and, you know, people that were really into the games. The locker rooms were terrible. The Celtics would shut off the air conditioning or the heat, depending on what time of season to fuck with the other team.

And like all that stuff's out the window. I think that what you said about everything being homogenous, like I do, you feel that when you're watching four games at once on a Wednesday night, you have no idea which arena is which. They all seem the same. The seats seem the same. That's why what the Clippers are trying to do with this new arena is so interesting to me because they're going to have this wall of fans and they're going to have,

uh, you know, they built it like the Indiana arena where the, everybody's really close to the court. And if that doesn't make a difference, then maybe, maybe the ship has sailed on home court. It's, it happened in hockey. Like we watched it happen over the last 20 years where all of a sudden it just didn't matter where you played in hockey, you could win anywhere. So, you know, so anyway, Minnesota is going back home

and I don't know if it makes a difference. Yeah, I don't know. I think it kind of feels like, doesn't it really kind of feel like Dallas really needs to win this next game? Because I feel like based on the way that last series went, I just, especially if you're not going to have Lively, and I was also thinking about the fact that Lively kind of plays like in scrum all the time.

He's always flying around. He's always in traffic. He also is like a wide receiver running over the middle with like you know these big bodies kind of looming i'm just kind of like makes me wonder if he'll maybe be thinking about it a little bit if that if that's going to have an effect on him but uh it does just kind of feel like um the the oh shit meter is going to kind of start to go up a little bit if they can't. But I don't think that you're going to get the same, like the shot making thing was just not there tonight, like in the way that it had been in the past three games. And I just don't

know per like the variance if you're going to be able to bank on that happening again if you're Minnesota. 14 for 30 on threes tonight. Towns, who averaged 22 and 8 during the season and was almost a 50-45-90 guy. It was 52-47-87. His seven games before tonight, he was 16-10, 37% shooting, 17% from three. And then tonight, he was four for five from three, 25-5, six fouls. It was the Townsiest game possible for better and worse. Just out of curiosity, I did make up a couple of town's trades thinking that they might lose

tonight. He's got four years, 221 million after this season, but he's 36 million basically through June. So his cap figure is actually pretty tradable. Four traits. I'm just going to throw these at you. By the way, he's still in the playoffs. I feel bad, but this is good content. I'm just doing it. This is going to be a door segment. Assuming Minnesota's out.

And it's like, ah, wow, Towns didn't play that well. Towns to Washington for Kuzma in the second pick. Too much or too little? I wouldn't do that if I'm Minnesota. You wouldn't do that? I don't think so. Because remember, they're going to be like 70 over, they're going to be like second apron the whole thing with the

salaries they have now. Yeah, I guess that's true. I'm just not a big Kuzma guy, and I'm trying to think about if you were ever not going to do it in a draft, I feel like it would be this one. Because, you know, they're not going to be in the SAR business, I wouldn't think, with the types of defenders they have. And I'm trying to think of who else would even. They're not going to get Klingon. Maybe Rob Dillingham or somebody really talented.

You take a chance on that. I don't know that I'd go. Conley replacement? Yeah. Dillingham and Conley. I don't know. I'll be curious to get your opinion on that one in a month if we revisit this. But what's the next one?

Just Towns and Ingram. Some sort. I don't know who throws in what, but a little flip-a-roo with those two guys. It's a little intriguing. Yeah, true. I mean, yeah, it kind of makes you wonder what they would be intriguing. Yeah. True. I mean, yeah, it kind of makes you wonder what they would be doing.

Okay. And then you'd have towns with the Pelicans is interesting. It is give them a little bit more spacing with some of those creators. Give them a towns, towns with Zion. I mean, there's a big bet that he's even healthy, but towns with Zion would be pretty interesting.

Well, that's what I was thinking for new Orleans. I think you do it in five seconds. Yeah. For Minnesota with Ingram, he's got an, but Towns with Zion would be pretty interesting. Well, that's what I was thinking for New Orleans. I think you do it in five seconds. For Minnesota with Ingram, he's got an extension coming. I think I need more than Ingram, especially like Ingram come off. He was bad in Team USA.

I don't think he had a great season. I don't think he's a distressed asset, but I think you'd have to get some picks in that one too. There's Towns for Murray and Capella's expiring. It's expiring next year. But could you turn Towns into DeJounte Murray? Does that make sense for either team? We'd get Towns and Trae Young together.

There's something there. And then could he be in a three-teamer or four-teamer with my ring around the rosie? As you know, one of my summer missions is to get Mikael Bridges to the Knicks because I think that's what the Knicks want. But could Towns go to Brooklyn? Randall in a first goes to Minnesota

or Randall in a first goes to Atlanta and Trae Young goes somewhere and Bridges goes to the Knicks. Maybe there's some sort of, there's like an asset merry-go-round that Towns could be a part of. I got to say, I probably, if those were my four trades, I think I'm keeping Towns for another year. I think so too. Yeah.

Because I think all that stuff either sends me backwards or sideways. And I already know what I have. I have a team that made the conference finals and counts the really two bad years of his deal doesn't kick in for two more years. So I think not to do the thing where I started an argument with myself and then talked myself out of it. But I think those are the type of trades on the table. I don't think they're doing better than that kind of neighborhood. Yeah yeah i'm trying to think of offensively who could use him like towns and trade together uh god i just think that that would be a reality tv show waiting to happen um you think about towns in brooklyn and you're just like well brooklyn's just kind of void of form in general so it's like sure why sure, why not? We'll take downs.

Yeah, I don't know. Murray with the Wolves, I think you ideally would want to get somebody with some like connective kind of playmaking in there. Is that where do the Wolves, let's say hypothetically, they lose the series and don't come back. Where do you look for maybe an upgrade? Conley has been such a steadying force, but long-term,

do you want to bet on him? Do you want to bet on... Because he looked done a couple years ago when Brunson lit his ass up in the playoffs. I'm just trying to think of how can they upgrade that because they don't really get as much of that playmaking out of Anderson all the time. That's where I see them needing an upgrade. Uh, so turning towns into some sort of guard. I think I agree

because Conley to me, it's so funny. Cause he played with Horford forever. He's very similar to Horford, right? As a stop gap, big minutes guy. Great. But ultimately I'm not sure that's his destiny on a team that needs to win four straight rounds because he's old. Yeah. Right. So you would want him in that Horford role where he could play big minutes, but ultimately maybe you're better off if it's 20 to 25 minutes a game, picking spots when guys are resting. Maybe he plays a big thing. Yeah. I don't know what the ideal town straight is.

All right. One more break and then we get into best backwards. This episode is brought to you by Movember. All right, one more break and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember.

Y'all afraid of ghosts? How about ghost peppers? It's the moment you've been waiting for. November. and send a chill of anticipation down your spine, nothing will. Get your ghost pepper sandwich today at Popeye's before it ghosts you for another year. All right, best backcourts. So this was floated around a lot this week. People were just like, Luca and Kyrie are the best backcourt of all time. And it's like, well, they played together two months last year

and went backwards and missed the playoffs. On purpose, on purpose. This year they were, well, they played together two months last year and went backwards and missed the playoffs. On purpose. On purpose. This year, they were a five. Well, they were still below 500 the last two games. This year, they were a five seed and then won a couple rounds. I just, as a protector of NBA history, I would just like to mention a couple people for you. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson.

Not sure you've heard of those guys. I've heard of them, you know, here and there. Yeah, yeah. Four titles, six finals together. Curry made four first-team All-NBAs, four seconds, two thirds, won two MVPs. Klay made a third-team All-NBA. They're the greatest shooting backcourt

of all time by any calculation. They were on teams that won 67 and 73 games in back-to-back years. I would say the bar is pretty high with those two guys.

I'm not ready to just be like, hey, new guys, best backcourt ever. Like, let's be responsible everybody out there. I think Curry and Clay

have the belt unless you want to come back with the 1950s. I'm not sure you do with the plumbers, the J.J. Redick plumber era. Who do you got? Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They won four titles, five finals, four titles for Sharman retired. Cousy made 10 straight first team O&BAs, not shabby, two second teams, played 12 years. 10 straight first team all-NBAs. Sharman made four first teams and three second teams. They made the first team together in 56, 57, 58, 59,

where they won three titles. So they were the first team guards. Out of all the guards in the league, they were the two first team guards. I'm going to say that's a pretty big bar to climb. And Sharman was like the first grade two guard in NBA history. Koozie was the best point guard basically the first 15, 20 years of the league until Oscar Robertson started doing his thing. I don't know if you've done a lot of Koozie Sherman homework on your YouTubes. They're pretty good. Not a ton.

I do have respect for them, but I also have respect for the context of where they played. There are some asterisks there. I was curious. You hear people... Some of these are just like Goodrich and Jerry West is one that gets brought up over and over and over again.

That's one that I don't have as much. And your book dive, did you get to, did you get to dive on that one as much? Is that, is that in your mind? So they were one title, two finals. They had the 33 game winning streak in 72. The 72 team went 77-15. They averaged together 51.7 points a game. Pretty good.

West was 10 first team on base, two seconds. He's a top 10 greatest player of all time. Probably 11th now that some people bumped in there. Goodrich was first team on base in 73-74. He probably should have made at least second team in 72, but I think they didn't want to have three Lakers. But if you're talking about one season, which is basically all we have for Luke and Kyrie right now, they're at least in that ballpark. Sam Jones and Casey Jones were really good together. Two Hall of Famers. They

won eight straight titles together. Isaiah and Dumars, I think, have to be mentioned. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I think, do they get bonus points, you think, because that team is like one of the only like point guards? Like, do you think the backcourt sort of lean of that whole team, do they get bonus points for that, considering their run that they had there at the end of the 80s? Like, I know maybe they don't have as many titles when you compare them to like the Celtics area guys. Right.

Because the league was so different. But I just kind of wonder if they get a little extra boost because of that, because of the way the team was built. Yeah, two titles, three finals in a row. Also probably should have made the 87 finals. They couldn't have come any closer. The Celtics sold them off. They were the two best guys in the team. They were guys that I think gave up some stats

because that team was pretty deep. Isaiah especially. Isaiah gave up a bunch of numbers in the second half of his career because he was trying to get everybody involved. They were a team that stemmed from the two guards. Dumars was the single best guy to guard Michael Jordan. I think they're on whatever

mountain this is. I think Parker and Ginobili have to be mentioned. Four titles together, five finals. First title, they were both like babes. But by the time it gets into the 07 range, those guys were really great together. And then the only other one I had was Monroe and Frazier

where they had one title, two finals together. Both made first team OMBAs at different times but that was a situation where they were the two best guys in the team. They were both guards. So my point is there's been some great backcourts. There's been backcourts.

Everybody we mentioned is a double Hall of Fame situation. Like all those guys are in basically except for Curry and Clay. And I can't remember if Parker and Jenova are in yet, but they probably will be. But for me, if I had to rank them in the finals would be Curry and Clay and Kuzi and Sharman. And I know the fifties are different and it was a short league,

but just like the fact that those guys were the all NBA first team guards for four years in a row says something. But I would have Curry and Clay won. The point is if Luca and Kyrie win the title, now they're in the conversation. I'm not ready to have it yet though. Let's see them close out Minnesota and let's see them win a title. And then we can talk about it.

I think the interesting thing to me about the conversation in general is that Kyrie was a distressed asset a year ago. Right. It's to the point where they gave up a first round pick and it's like, Whoa, that's really risky. You know, they gave up a first-round pick and it's like, whoa! That's really risky. They gave up one pick. When you look back, that trade seems like it was $0.30. I thought it was a huge risk.

What did you think when they did that trade? I've never wavered in my appreciation for his talent. I've always thought that I think he's the best below the rim finisher we've ever had. I think he's the best ball handler we've ever had. Like he's just an insane talent, but you're right. I mean, at that point, it's just so amazing how the mouthwash of like the last couple of months has just made us completely

forget how bad it was. Like nobody wanted to go near him, but I think this is sort of the, the ultimate sort of, um the the ultimate sort of um the ultimate sort of like test of your philosophy if you're going to be this team that like brings in these distressed assets and you bank on them which is something dallas did over and over and over again you know they brought in christian wood they you know they brought in at the time kp was a little distressed because of the injury stuff but like um this would be the ultimate version of that at the time yeah i mean i was i was a little uh curious about it but um they they are just a really interesting pairing because i just think that they're like two sort of off-speed pitches against each other because

you know and kairi has really dug in and accepted this role where you know luca's like all right i'm the lead singer of this band and you're gonna pick your solo you know you can solo in a couple spots during the game and you can get in there and sort of do your virtuosic thing like it's i almost feel like kairi does this thing playing against luca where it's so tiring to guard luca like we talked about at the top of the show mentally tiring that like i feel like kairi almost does the ali foreman thing where like you get to the end of the game and you think okay well the fight's going a certain way and Kyrie leans in and asks you if you're tired and then he's like all right now it's time to dance like he didn't quite do that tonight but um I just feel like he's he's done that so well

it's been really nice to see um I I've been it's it's just nice to see some just kind of quiet I don't know that he personally has changed at all, like in terms of what he thinks or whatever it is, but he's, uh, he's, he's, or if it's strategic, you know, in terms of like his PR life, but it does seem like he just has more quiet in his life and it's been nice to just kind of watch him play basketball. Yeah. There's a serenity to him this year that I, I'm not sure he had another years.

He always seemed to like chaos. And when it got quiet, then there would be more chaos. But, you know, we did. It's easy to forget this now, but in 21, before him and Harden got hurt, this was similar. It was a happy basketball

situation. They were playing well. He kind of goes up and down, but lately it's been up. We'll see. There's going to be adversity in the next series because the Celtics have just the perfect team to throw at him and at least make them work, right? They have two big guards. They have forwards with size they could put on. If Porzingis is back, they're going to have a rim protector and it's going to be a different situation. The Celtics match up really well with Dallas' two best guys, but Dallas has guys to throw at Boston too,

so that's why if that ends up being the finals, that's going to be a good little chess match. They're also really well coached, Dallas. I'm not positive I would say the same thing about post-Patella injury Chris Finch. I want to give Chris Finch a shout-out because this hit close to home because my wife ruptured her patella recently. That is an MF-er of an injury. She couldn't move. You basically can't clench your quad at all or you're just in excruciating pain. So I can't believe he was up there at all. That was really impressive. But like, I was going to say to you that, um, I w I was thinking about like who they've gone through, like, okay. See, you know, they have door, they have the big physical, you know, stop the run ball stopper defender. They've got, uh, you know, they've got case and walls who sort of a switchy kind of can fill in different spots. They've got

Jalen Williams, the big long rangy wing who can kind of bother bigger forwards and switch some. They almost feel like the version, Boston feels like a more evolved version of OKC defensively in terms of the tools that they have. Well, I would say that Boston has way better rim protection.

That's the difference because Boston not only has Porzingis and Horford, but they have Tatum and then freaking Derek White, who had like 14 blocks in his last five playoff games, but both him and Drew for guards can also protect the rim. And you have, they'll have these sequences where they'll just block like four shots out of seven plays.

You know, I don't, okay. See, it was really just chat, right. And like a tiny bit of J-dub. And that was it.

It's not like anybody else was protecting the rim. Well, OKC led the league in blocks and steals this past year. They were pretty disruptive, but they well, they were tied. But I only know that off the top of my head because of video I just made. But yeah, I mean, I just feel like in the Dallas series, do you feel like they were protecting the rim? Because I did not. They need some more size.

I mean, I think like you get into a half court game in the playoff like they were protecting the rim because it i did not uh they need some more size i mean i think like you get into a half court game in the playoff like they just do and and i think something that like boston deserves more credit for you talked about them being rim protector and i think sometimes people think about rim protection where it's like they think literally like the act of blocking the shot like it's all this organic organism thing that's connected like rim deterrence and rim like protection, or you need the guy back there to like put the punctuation on the sentence. But like,

you know, Boston doesn't really got, they have guys who can turn guys like, you know, why? And, and drew holiday, like a lot of rim protection is like putting,

you know, guiding guys the way that you want them to go strategically. And Boston has both pieces of that. I think, you know, okay. See has, has some upgrades to make in that department though. But I just kind of thought, guys the way that you want them to go strategically and boston has both pieces of that i think you know okc has has some upgrades to make in that department though but i just kind of thought in terms of like the challenges they went through i wasn't trying to argue that like dallas has seen it and they're ready for it i just think that like no i got you boston's gonna be like a newer more more realized version of that if they get there sorry Sorry, Minnesota fans, but just hypothetically, yeah. Yeah, the Porzingis piece is a huge piece of that too.

People kept forgetting about that with the Indiana series. The amount of miles they put on Al Horford in that series was nuts. He had no legs in game four, but you put Porzingis in, not only does it help with the rim protection, but also anytime your offense gets like in these little stagnant stretches, you can just go through him or they could run like white KP stuff together. Um, they could run a little Jalen KP stuff.

And just to have that room, the average 23 points a game, you know, people are acting like, oh, well they, well they have Horford. He can just step in. It's like, I don't know. KP was like a borderline all-star. So I think they've been super careful with him. But Indiana didn't have Halliburton the last couple games. Although, the way Nembhard was playing, Jesus Christ. Did he remind you

of 22 Brunson at all? I tweeted that yesterday. You're watching it and go, man, this guy could maybe have his own team or he's just hitting the craziest slew of shots of his life.

I don't know which one is true. The Nimhard Hive, the guys that did believe in him were very, very vocal and outspoken.

It's nice to see them get a win on that. But like, I was going to ask you about Porzingis. I was talking with one of my buddies who's like a sports science physician. And I was asking him about, I was like, do you think, I was like, let's say before the

game tonight, obviously the Wolves kept it alive here. But I was like, I was like, do you think hypothetically the way that like Luka and Kyrie sort of do the, you know, accelerate break thing uphill? I was like, do you think that's going to be like a little bit of a challenge, maybe potentially on Porzingis, his specific injury? I was like, I almost wonder if like that could be something that Dallas just goes right at. You know, if you think about if you're sort of like pushing off of your calves and trying to keep up with them,

I just kind of wonder if that's going to be a sort of a pain point for them with the way that Dallas likes to play. I mean, the same thing's true of Ant. I just kind of wonder how that's going to play out or if that could end up being a factor. Because Horford is actually pretty good at staying down for as much as he's lost a step in terms of running and flying

and jumping and kind of stuff. He's pretty good at measured movement. I feel like he'll do a decent job on Luka. But I was curious about that with KP. I'm curious to see what's going to happen with that yeah i don't have an answer because they've been pretty tight-lipped no he might be a hundred percent and they just might have put him in bubble wrap because they knew they were going to meet indiana and i don't think it benefits them at all to tell us what's actually going on apparently he's wearing flip-flops in practice, which tells me if you're super worried about your calf,

maybe you're not wearing flip-flops and kind of walking around in those, but not getting the arch support, you know, I don't know. Maybe that's what that says. Yeah. Well, you knew one thing with Horford.

My dad pointed this out. My dad has a good point every once in a while. The way the final schedule staggers out, it's like unbelievable for Horford. He's the biggest winner of the whole thing. It's Thursday, Sunday, Wednesday are the first three games. So you get, uh, two days rest between each game, which is great for him. The back, the, uh, every other night is when it gets tough with the old guys.

Then game, uh, four is two days after game three in Dallas. And then it goes to 3-3-3 again. So if they want to be super easy with KP and put Miles on Horford, they can actually do it. It was that last round they were really worried about because if that was a long series and you're just playing out Horford 40 minutes every other night, that's not sustainable. But I think I've said this before, but the durability and athleticism of their two best guys is fucking crazy. Like Tatum and Brown, Brown, Brown has been getting better at the end of these games. You know, he's like, he's like going up a level now and he's so competitive. I was so happy for him when he got that trophy. Cause he's, he's been the middle brother of the Celtics for this entire time, right? He's the Jan Brady. He's

name a middle brother from any TV show you've ever watched. And even when he got the trophy, you could see, he was like, so he wasn't even a curve to him. He was going to win it. And he was like, genuinely shocked and delighted. It was like, Oh my God, I want something. People like me like, uh, but he's been awesome oh my God, I won something. People like me. But he's been awesome this whole season. I think for somebody who got a $300 million contract and took a bunch of shit for it too, and then started out the season not awesome. And it was like, oh man, this might be a real problem. And then basically a month into the season, you can't ask for anything more. He's clearly a top 20 guy. He's a great, great, great two-way forward

for what the two-way forward options are. You know, I think he's one of the best 20 guys in the league, and it was nice to see him get a little shine. But I think a lot of the people watch that series and are just like, oh, Indiana's not good. They haven't played anybody. Most of the time, people don't play. Who did the LeBron Cavs play from 2011 to 2018?

Can you remember great teams they played oh he had such a stranglehold this is how it goes these conferences suck forever you play who's there that's what happens you know i feel like people remember it more in the nba like in college people just completely forget who you play there's like whatever title and the nba it gets a little it gets litigated a little more closely but yeah what was what was jalen's quote i've never won shit in that what he his exact quote words right he did yeah he looked surprised yeah yeah he i thought he did a really really good job in that series and i personally would have given it to drew because uh i just thought he was awesome. But I thought three of the guys could have won because you could make a case for Tatum too.

Tatum was like 30, 10, and 6. Statistically, he was there, even if he's a little up and down. But I thought Drew is just such a delight. It's so much fun. I was saying to somebody that Drew and Derek White and Horford are like the kind of mid-2000s Belichick Patriots type guys that we had. Just these awesome, overqualified role players. All they want to do is win. They have no idea what their stats are. They just make big plays. They just come through. And to have three of those guys is pretty great. Did you think Drew, did you think he was headed toward being washed up?

Where did you stand on him when he was being offered around last year? You and Ryan hit on it, I think, pretty well and effectively, I thought, when you were just talking about it. I think the sort of stink that kind of entered the air with him when people would start and you hear Milwaukee fans be like, oh, playoff Drew. Well, it's like if your idea of playoff drew is that he is like your primary handler and you're living and dying with whether or not he's hitting dribble pull-ups or making a good decision getting downhill i mean yeah you're gonna develop an idea of playoff true but when you like put him in is

like your third creator or your catch and shoot guy who's a cutter or and then you add his plus plus defense like he doesn't really care what he's doing offensively that's a cutter or and then you add his plus plus defense like he doesn't really care what he's doing offensively that's a great spot for him you know so like yeah when i was thinking about teams that could use him i remember i think we talked about like the kings would have been a great spot for him just somewhere somewhere he could fall in where he doesn't necessarily have to be the number one um and he can give you sort of the pluses, yeah, that situation's ideal. But if you're going to make him be your primary guy the way Milwaukee had to do, yeah, you're going to come away, I think, a little bit disappointed at times. I know

they want a title, but I think this is a good situation for him because it kind of takes pressure off of him that is good, I think. Well, and they smartly extended him because I think, especially now, Philly's throwing around their cap space like some divorce guy at a hotel bar. Hey! Who wants a drink? And if Drew had been a free agent, he would be in these Paul George stories and whoever the hell else is available that people seem to think Philly can get.

But the Celtics locked him up. They'll lock up White this summer and this is going to be their nucleus going forward. We'll see. The Porzingis thing is always going to be year to year, month to month. Every month he's healthy, you just exhale. And that's how it goes.

That's how the finals are going to be. We knew this whole season, this was going to come down partly to what version of KP are we getting when it really matters. And it didn't have to matter in those first three series because of all the injuries,

but it's going to matter in the next round. Minnesota is probably a worse basketball on paper matchup and Dallas is a much scarier, you know, you don't have the best player in the series. You have two incredible shot makers. You have a team that is very well coached and knows. The two wings to throw a Tatum and Brown. Um, I just don't want to see those guys. But now after watching this, it's like, I not having the best guy in a series. When does that work out in the finals? It just doesn't. I don't know if there's evidence of it working out ever yeah it sometimes it just comes down to that kind of basic chess like do you do you does your hub work and how many of them do you have like i know like that i got to see that okc dallas series up close and that was just sometimes you can just boil it down to that that lowest common denominator

i think it's just like okc had shea they're waiting for jaylen williams to turn the corner and kind of become that guy just couldn't quite do it and then and i just think it's just like, okay, see, had Shea, they're waiting for Jalen Williams to turn the corner and kind of become that guy. Couldn't quite do it. And then, and I just think it gives you a little more, it makes you a little more dynamic in situations where it's like, they can't totally shut your water off. I think that's what playoff series are all about. It's like, you know, maybe you start to cover one guy pretty well, you can switch to another. And I think that's, you know, Minnesota, we'll see, we'll see what happens. The series isn't over, but I mean, I do think that Boston's backcourt guys would be a pretty interesting challenge for Ant. I think the maturity of their guys and

the cumulative defensive IQ of Boston, I think, would be an enormous challenge for Ant. I'd be pretty curious to see him take it on. Who do you have as the number one draft pick? Oh, man. I'm leaning at this point. Let me just, so I can

have the names in front of my face. Coming up is 9.5 points a game in the NBL. We were talking about this today. I'm a little... I just think you kind of go fit because I don't know that there's a...

Asar is the most like... He resembles an upside play. He's the guy who maybe his offense could come around and he could become like, I don't know, like your third best guy for your playoff team? Or is he going to be like a Jonathan Isaac type? Is he going to be as good as Jonathan Isaac?

I think that that's sort of a good sort of measuring stick so you're on that you're on the mode of this draft is basically like if you cut the top seven out of a normal draft and started at pick eight that's what this draft is yeah there's some guys that have like talent that is like up higher like i think that like topich i think could help some teams like i think think Stephon Castle, the 6'6 wing from UConn, I don't know if you got to see him. He's a guy who's really competitive. He's now saying he's a point guard. Switchy.

I don't know so much about that. Donovan Klingin is a guy who I think could be at least a rotation-level player, I think, on a playoff defense. So it kind of depends on what you're after. You know, Klingin, I think, is going to be a defensive anchor, I think a credible one in the league. But, yes, Saar makes me nervous. I'm just kind of like the Isaac thing I can't quite get away from

because I'm like, do you think he's ever going to be like a dribble creator in any sense? Do you think that he's going to be – if you were in this series, we were like, well, okay, let's gamble on alexander sar like making threes or like i would i would be playing off of him like i don't know that i trust it especially in the speed of the nba um but there's some guys i mentioned dillingham like has high level talent like that that like has the has the talent of like a guy who could change a franchise um i don't know, man. What a sad draft. Even hearing you talk about it made me sad.

Yeah, I feel like, I don't know. Whenever you're thinking about this draft, it kind of feels like when you're a kid and somebody winds you up on a swing and gets you really dizzy, and you're like, what, where's the ground? I don't know. The typical thing that we expect,

which is just an offensive number one, I don't know for sure that there is one in this draft, uh, defensive anchor. I mean, Klingon seems that way. It's just, it's tough.

I think. It seems like you have to default to one elite skill. So if it's like Reed Shepard shooting, okay. He can, he can dribble and shoot. Cool. There's something Klingon's like,

Hey, he can protect the rim. Okay. Castle. Hey, he can guard wings. Okay. There's something. Klingon's like, hey, he can protect the rim. Okay. Castle. Hey, he can guard wings. Okay. And that's basically, so going back to your drafted for need analogy, that's basically where we are. As you know, I'm completely invested in the Spurs and them not wasting year two of Wembley. And I just want them to find fun shooters. But there's some other teams. If you're like Detroit at five, do you want another young player?

You have a fucking million young players. If you're Washington, you don't want another Kulibaly kind of five-year project. You want somebody that at least brings something to the table, I think. I don't know. I think there's picks going to be

available for trade. We'll see if those picks are even worth anything. Kyle, man, we can hear in the NBA draft show. We can watch it on the ringer NBA YouTube. And, uh,

I'm sure I'll, I'll talk to you during the finals. Good to see you. Good to see you too. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. Securian Canada gives you that coverage. For more than 65 years, Securian Canada has been helping Canadians build secure tomorrows.

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Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. So I spent three years writing my basketball book, which got published in October of 2009. And for the epilogue, I wanted to drive down to San Diego and talk to Bill Walton because a big part of the book was about the secret of basketball,

how it wasn't about basketball, how it was about being selfless, being a good teammate, about understanding your place in the hierarchy of a team, about great players who can make other players better. Bill Walton embodied so much of it

that I felt like I had to go see him. And there was this extra piece that of all the great players ever, he was the one guy who had that gift and wasn't really able to use it because he kept getting hurt. So I drove to San Diego and I'm just gonna read you

the first two paragraphs of the epilogue. William Theodore Walton III lives in a sprawling house filled with hundreds of books, pictures, mementos, artifacts, and everything else that should definitely be in Bill Walton III lives in a sprawling house filled with hundreds of books, pictures, mementos, artifacts, and everything else that should definitely be in Bill Walton's house. Turn left and you might see a Vietnam book next to a Hunter S. Thompson book. Turn right and you might see a photo of Bill and Bob Dylan hanging next to a picture of Bill and John Wooden. A lifelong resident of the most beautiful city in America, Walton owns a Spanish

style home that makes you think think I am definitely undoubtedly in San Diego right now. The house features a basketball half court and a pool, as well as his lovely wife, Lori, two pooches named Annie and Shasta, and a black cat named Charcoal. That's right, a black cat. This blows me away. Bill Walton seems like the last guy who should tempt fate with a black cat. Instead of being mentioned in the same breath with Russell and Wilton Kareem, he's remembered for bad luck and what could have been. His body continues to pay for an injury riddled career that ended 22 years ago. Only recently could he start moving around after major back surgery left him bedridden

for months. His feet betrayed him so egregiously that within 10 minutes of sitting down with him, I glanced at his swollen, scarred, almost unrecognizable right foot, become distracted, and lose my train of thought. Walton was blessed with a gift and cursed with a body that couldn't handle that gift. The curse trumped the gift. One of the few players who understood the secret completely and totally, poor Walton never had an extended chance to harvest it. When I think back to that day, it's 15 years ago, almost to the month.

I keep thinking about his foot because you looked at it and it just, it was like watching, it was like looking at a suitcase that had stickers from where everybody went. And it just had all these scars that just kind of captured how awful his journey was, just trying to stay in the court. I think he had probably 40 foot surgeries and back surgeries and his body just couldn't

hold up. But he was at peace with it by the time I saw him play. And I have a lot more on that. I want to go backwards though, because everyone talked about what an amazing human being he was and what an ambassador he was for basketball. But there's some basic basketball stuff I just wanted to rip through really quick about Walton

because I feel like he was that important. He's one of the greatest college basketball players ever by any calculation. That's the first thing. Three Player of the Year awards, two titles. They had an 88 game winning streak at UCLA. In the 72 final four, 57 points, 41 rebounds in the two games. In 73 in the championship game against Memphis, best game ever, 21 for 22 field goal. Jesus. 44 points, 13 rebounds. And if you're going to talk about who are the greatest college

basketball players of all time, Lou Alcindor, Bill Walton, Maravich, Oscar, like whatever list you want to make, Alcindor and Walton have to be the first two on it. And that's that. So he comes into the league. He's the first pick in the draft for Portland and can't really stay healthy there for a couple of years. And then all of a sudden it happens. March 1977 through February 78. The Blazers go 70 and 15, including the 1977 playoffs. And Walton's just crushing it in the playoffs. He's like 18 and 16 and six assists, three plus blocks a game. He beats Artis Gilmore, David Thompson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Dr. J in the finals.

And then this is the third thing in the finals. He has one of the 10 greatest closing games in the history of the finals. Pettit's game six and 57, Russell's game seven and 62, Jordan's game six and 98, Frazier's game seven and 70, Magic's game six and 80,

Bird's game six and 86, Duncan's game six and 03, LeBron's game seven and 70. Magic's game six and 80. Bird's game six and 86. Duncan's game six and 03. LeBron's game seven and 16. Giannis' 50-pointer in 21. And then Bill Walton, 20 points, 23 rebounds, eight assists, seven blocks. They win the game in the final play. He rips off his jersey, celebrates shirtless with the delirious Portland fans. There's... Maybe it's the greatest of all the closing games. I gotta say, when you throw in the crowd coming in and just mobbing him, it's pretty great.

Another thing with him, he's the greatest passing center ever until Jokic shows up. So, if you're gonna do Mount Passmore, it's Bill Russell, Sabonis, Jokic, and Bill Walton. If you're gonna do most fun teammates of all time, I don't know how long you want your list to be, but Bird and Magic and Bill Walton and Jokic have

to be probably the first four people mentioned. So there's that. The fifth thing, as he's doing all of this, he's one of the great off the court characters in the history of the league. He's got the long hair with the ponytail. He's got the beard. He's doing of the great off the court characters in the history of the league. He's got the long hair with the ponytail. He's got the beard. He's doing seventies protest stuff in a league that for the most part wanted no part of this stuff. He's not just protesting Vietnam. He's sticking up for black players.

He's sticking up for civil rights. Like he is a true seventies radical. Uh, there wasn't only no other NBA player like this in the 70s. There were barely any athletes like this in the 70s. Ali, Brown, Kareem, all of those guys who in the 60s made such an impact. By the 70s, it's starting to fade a little bit and Walton's keeping it going. He's also a pot smoker. He's a vegan, rides his bike everywhere. Brent Musburger, nicknames of the mountain man. He had this stuttering problem back then that somehow not only did he overcome, he became

an eventual broadcaster, but he was just a presence. You know, he's seven foot two, like legitimately. I know he's listed at 6'11", but he was a legitimate 7'2", long, crazy hair, played unlike anyone else in the league, was the only person who made Kareem seem smaller. So on top of that, he had this unabashed love for John Wooden and for good basketball. He had this crazy spiritual connection

with the Grateful Dead, which lasted all the way through when he played, then afterwards, and I think he was still showing up for shows even in the last year. In the 90s when he played, then afterwards, and I think he was still showing up for shows even in the last year. In the 90s, he ends up doing broadcasting and becomes a character that way. This was the era where the color guy

really was never that interesting in basketball. And then Walton comes in. He's like killing Carl Malone. He's killing coaches. He's doing stuff like almost from a fan's perspective, but he had the gravitas to do it because he was Bill Walton. And he would have these fun podcast interviews and all these different things. You saw a lot

of that in 30 for 30, but he was a true, true, true off the court character on top of being such a great player. The sixth thing, he's the best guy in one of the four best teams I ever saw in person. So I saw them in December 77. They played in Boston. I just turned eight years old. And for me to remember a random Celtics game from December 77 means that it had to have left an impact on me because the Celtics sucked that year. The Salvaceks last year, they were not a playoff team. Portland shows up, kicks the crap out of us. They reach a level that I'd never seen in person before where they're just, we would miss while I'm get the rebound, everybody would take off.

And that's just how it went. They felt unbeatable. We missed, they scored, we missed, they scored. They felt like watching machine. We left the garden. I remember my dad and I just like, oh my God, we would never have a chance against that team. And as I got older, I thought the score was like 160 to 70. The score was actually 117 to 86. But I wrote this when I wrote my book and I still feel this way. The 86 Celtics, the 96 Bulls, and that 77 Blazers are the three best teams I've ever seen in person. And since I wrote the book, I would add the 2017 Warriors. So it'd be those four teams. I never got to see the 2013 Heat during the streak because I was doing TV that year, but I wish I had seen them because I feel like they would have been in there. But those are my four, 86 Celts, 96 Bulls, 77 Blazers,

2017 Warriors, just for me seeing them in person. The seventh thing about Walton, his injuries and his loss of relevance from 1978 to 1985 was one of the most damaging things that ever happened in the NBA. Just, it's that simple. It starts with, he gets hurt in February. They misdiagnose it. He has a stress fracture, which they don't really

realize. He ends up coming back for the playoffs. They think he has a sore foot. They shoot his foot up. He makes it way worse. We end up in a malpractice situation where he sues the team. He misses the whole next season, ends up signing with the Clippers, and that's a disaster. He misses three full seasons from the moment that injury happens. He plays 47 games in five years at one point, 47 games total. Uh, for the Clippers, he played less than I think 175 games and just gets removed from the league for seven years, basically, because even when he was playing on the Clippers and he had a couple of years, he played like 55 games, 65 games, but even on the Clippers, and he had a couple years, he played like 55 games, 65 games. But even on the Clippers, it's not like anybody was watching them.

They weren't a playoff team. So not only did we lose Walton. So think about if we just lost Jokic four years ago. He's just gone. What's the league like? We lose a whole Blazers, Lakers, and Walton-Kareem rivalry just never happens. We have in the 77 playoffs, he beats Kareem and then it just never happens again. We lose Walton versus Moses.

We lose Walton playing against the Bird Celtics. We lose Walton from a stretch of the NBA that was really dangerous. The 78 playoffs, 79 playoffs, that whole season, the cocaine era setting it in. The best players in the league are Dr. J and Kareem. They're not on TV that much. They really kind of need Walton. He's one of the most famous guys in the league are Dr. J and Kareem. They're not on TV that much. They really kind of need Walton. He's one of the most famous guys in the league and his team is the

most fun team to watch. And it's just gone. And right around then they start tape delaying games. They're not showing games at all. They don't know which stars to push because they had David Thompson, they had ice, they had Gervin, like they had good players, but for whatever reason, Walton, um, because of that 77 finals, it felt like he was becoming the face of the league and then he's just gone. And they weren't really able to replace it until Bird of Magic showed up. Basketball dies in San Diego is another thing that happened. And then I wrote at the time, you can't overstate how damaging those last Walton years were for anyone who truly cared about basketball. From a comedy standpoint, it would be like Eddie Murphy

releasing 48 Hours and Trading Places, disappearing for the next eight years, coming back, releasing Beverly Hills Cop, and then disappearing for good. That's what it was like. I mean, you're talking, we should have had 1,100 games from him

plus 150 playoff games, and we end up with less than 500 regular season games and less than 50 playoff games and we end up with less than 500 regular season games and you know less than 50 playoff games so um so there's that number eight he was the focal point of the best sports book of all time by david halberstam it's called breaks of the game it is a 362 page snapshot of the nba right as it's shifting from this downtrodden era it was having to a pretty lucrative era. It covers the 79-80 season, but it goes backwards. It's through Portland, through the prism of this team that really meant something, that had a chance to

be truly great. And then within two years, Walton's gone. Injuries, money has ruined the team. People are getting traded. And it's about a loss of loyalty. It's about bigger business stakes. It's about the rise of the personal brand, smarter media coverage, trusting your doctors. It's just an amazing book and an amazing character study. I wrote about it for page two, 20 years ago. I read that book so many times. I felt like the guys in the book were my friends, including Bill Walton. But one of my favorite parts of the book was Bobby Knight calls Stu Inman, the guy who built the team. And this was right after Walton bolted for San Diego. And Knight was so crushed because he loved the Blazers. He felt like Walton's Blazers teams were exactly the kind of basketball he wanted in

life. And he asked Stu Inman, is there any way to keep a perfect team together? Can it be done anymore? And that's been the crucial question of following basketball for the last 50 years, starting with the 77 Blazers. Can you build a perfect team? Can you keep the team together? The answer is probably no. Can you build a perfect team? Can you keep the team together? The answer is probably no.

I mean, even like we had the 2017 Warriors, which were about as perfect of an offensive team as you can ever build. And within two years, KD's leaving. You know, we had Jordan and the Bulls. And Jordan, after three titles, goes to play baseball, comes back three more titles. That falls apart.

Injuries, money, jealousy, it's just too freaking hard. And it really starts with that 77 Blazers team. The night thing, he becomes the most overqualified six man of all time. He goes to the Celtics. They trade Cedric Maxwell for him. I think they traded a pick too. Goes to the 1986 Celtics, birds apex. They go 82 and 18. They go 15 and one at home. And miraculously, Bill Walton plays 80 games and 16 playoff games. He plays 96 games.

This is a guy who did not play 500 regular season games his career. His previous career, I was 67. He played 19 minutes a game. He was eight, seven and two and brought just something to that team that I can't even describe. He clicked with bird in a way that, um, was almost like hard to believe as you were watching it, they were just immediately on the same wifi link. And, uh, they would start messing around with each other during games. And they had the same play over and over again where Bird would throw it to Walton and then he would kind of run toward Walton, almost like using Walton as a pick and either pretend to dart out for three

or he would just cut to the basket and Walton would wait and just whip it over his head and find him. But watching those guys experiment together was about as happy as I've ever been as a basketball fan. The team had so much size. The team really loved each other and pulled for each other. There was no jealousy at all.

And for Walton, this guy who had seemed like, you know, was this huge what if in so many different ways. And then basketball makes him happy again. He fits in that team and plays for what seems to be the greatest team ever at the time. And he loved Larry Bird the most. There's this great moment. You can find it on YouTube.

Game four, Eastern Conference Finals, 86. They're playing in Milwaukee and they're getting revenge against Milwaukee because Milwaukee swept them three years earlier. And Bird, ball gets swung around. It's literally the last couple seconds of the game and Bird says, screw it, and just shoots a three at the buzzer.

And it's an F-U-3, exclamation point, goes in. And you see Walton on the court, he raises his arms. He's so pumped. Just like, just can't believe Bird took the shot, made it. And CBS follows them into the locker room and they're getting the celebration and people are like, yeah, we did it. And then Walton comes in last and he's like,

Larry Bird, Larry Bird. It's just saying Larry Bird over and over and over again. He was so delighted by Bird. Uh, but he was such a big part of that team. And I can't think of another six man quite like him that could come in swing games where you weren't even sure maybe he should just be in crunch time and every game he He was that good. And he would come in huge, huge, huge body. Always had the ball over his head. Fundamentally, he was so good. He would get these rebounds, just keep the ball over his head. Nobody does this anymore. Or if they do it, you notice it. He was always ready to make a play at all times, which I think is a weird thing to praise somebody for,

but there's so many guys now get the ball, they're like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? Walton always knew what he was going to do. I feel like his tape should be shown to high school centers for the rest of eternity. Last thing, I think Walton was one of 15 or 16 players who guaranteed you a title if he was healthy.

And here's what I mean by that, because when I was figuring out the pyramid for my book, the question for me trying to do the rankings is, I'll do respect to David Robinson, but would you rather have 14 years of David Robinson or like three years of Bill Walton? Because if I have three years of Bill Walton and I could put the right team around him, a good rebounder next to him and a couple shooters and some quick guards. Am I winning the title? Like I probably am. And if, if I want a great player, I want them because I want to win a title. It's not, I just want to be good for a decade and a half. I want to win the title. Not that many players guaranteed you a title. Like when I did this list in my book, it was Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Hakeem, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Moses, Wilt, and

in the 50s. That was the whole list. Since then, Kobe, LeBron, Jokic, Curry. Maybe Giannis. Depends how you feel about 2021 and all the stuff that happened this year. It was a pretty weird year. I'm not positive Giannis guarantees you a title, but he couldn't be closer. And then Luka would be the last one maybe that's on that list. But that's how good Walton was. That's why, even though he didn't play that long, we were talking about him for years and decades after. And then the really special piece was he brought as much joy and appreciation and wisdom to his post-playing career as I think any great player ever. So when I drove to San Diego to see him and I'm thinking of the premise,

the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball and I lay it out for him. I have the whole Isaiah story about how Isaiah realized what the secret was that I have in my book. I have a few other examples. I give him my case basically for the secret. And he listened to me and this is what he said. It's not a secret as much as a choice. Look at the forces fighting against that choice. Look at the forces pushing you to make the other choice, the wrong choice.

It's all about you. It's all about material acquisitions, physical gratification, stats and highlights. Everywhere you go, you're bombarded with the opposite message of what really matters. And you wouldn't even know otherwise unless you played with the right player or right coach, the Woodens, the Arbacks, the Ramses, the Russells, the Birds. How many people get that lucky? Kobe was blessed to have Phil and eventually realized that. With a truly great coach, it's not about a diagram. It's not about a play. It's not about a practice.

It's the course of time over history. It's the impact a coach has on the lives around him. That's what Phil has done for Kobe. The history of life is that most people figure it out. Most of the time, it's too late. That's the real frustrating part, the squandered opportunities that you can't get back. Kobe figured it out. It took a while, but he figured it out. Now he says all this, this was right after the 2009 finals. And one of the things I was grappling with my book was

Kobe just won the finals. I wouldn't say Kobe is on the first sentence of people I would say was a big secret guy. He was a new generation of player where it was like, he's going to get his and you had to fit everyone around him, but you could still win a title that way. And it took me a while to figure out the type of basketball that I cared about versus the type of basketball that Kobe was good at. I couldn't reconcile the two. I was like, whatever Kobe is doing on this Lakers team, it feels opposite to the stuff I'm basically touting in this book. So what does that mean for the book? And that was what I went to Walton with. And this is what Walton said back. Kobe only wants to win. It doesn't matter what your motivation is or that your game or your

style is different or that it's not perceived to be right or acceptable. We have seen an entire spectrum of things for him this decade. And right now he's really, really good. Look, you want him to be perfect for you. This comes back to your choice, who your heroes are. You chose to value a certain type of player over anyone else. he has the right to make his choice too. So that's what Bill Walton said. And he was exactly right. Kobe was choosing to play a certain way and it worked. Got to hand it to him. But that wasn't the best thing I took away from my time with Walton. Because we were talking about not just the secret of basketball, but when it becomes truly special. And we talk about Larry Bird and this is what he said. It all starts with the flow.

Throw in the performance aspect and that's when you really have something. Larry played with passion, persistence, and purpose. There was meaning to his performances. Same for Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Jerry Garcia, Jordan, Magic. It was important to them, which made it important to us. The personality of the lead player brings with it all kinds of responsibilities, not just the job. It's a way of life. With Larry, people would buy tickets where they couldn't even see the game, obstructed seats just to be there. People just wanted to be in the arena and feel

that golden glow. He was incomparable. He could do things that nobody else could even think of doing, and he would do them in the biggest moments on the least to me. And I think he's right. Flow plus meaning equals performance. And the crazy thing about it was nobody understood that as a player more than Bill Walton. Because if you saw him at his peak in 77, there was flow and there was meaning and there was performance and there was a connection with his teammates that was unlike anything else that was happening. And it got taken away from him. And a lot of times that can break somebody. And it didn't break him. He was able to rise above it. And he led a great life and affected a lot of people.

And to the end, he had flow and he had meaning and he had performance. So RIP Bill Walton. He died this week at 71 years old. We're going to miss him. The sport of basketball is going to miss him. The sport of basketball is going to miss him. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to J. Kyle Mann. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing as well. I will see you again on Thursday. I'm doing podcast Thursday and Sunday this week. Don't forget about the rewatchables. You can listen to it, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, or you can subscribe to our Rhythm Movies YouTube channel. I'll see you on

Thursday. I don't have a few years with them. On the wayside, I'm a person never lost. I don't have a few years with them. Must be 21+, 18+, D.C., and present in select states. Fandle, offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLE or visit fando.com slash RG. In Colorado, DC, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio,

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