The Bill Simmons Podcast - RIP, Norm Macdonald. Plus, the McCourty Twins and Bill’s Favorite Actor, Jon Bernthal

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by his longtime friend Daniel Kellison to remember Norm Macdonald (4:40). Then Bill talks with Super Bowl champions Devin and Jason McCourty about about going head-to-head in Week 1 in Foxborough, Mac Jones’s NFL debut, playing for coaches Bill Belichick and Brian Flores, the best QBs they’ve been on the field with, the hardest WRs to cover, their charity work in the fight against sickle-cell anemia, and more (35:00). Finally, Bill talks with actor Jon Bernthal about his beginnings on ‘The Walking Dead,’ preparing for ‘The Punisher,’ working with A-list stars like Leonardo DiCaprio and the Rock, as well as some of his current projects like ‘The Many Saints of Newark’, ‘Small Engine Repair’, ‘The Premise’, and more. They also have a lengthy discussion about their favorite sports movies (1:06:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jon Bernthal, Devin McCourty, Jason McCourty, and Daniel Kellison Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's a Chicago sports podcast in the mold of New York, New York with John Jastrzemski, which has been really awesome to have all season. Jason killed the first episode. He really did a great job. He really centered the first 40 plus minutes around

why won't the Bears just play Justin Fields over Randy Dalton. He went 40 plus minutes. It seemed like without a breath. It was great. I was really impressed. It's really hard to talk to yourself for that long. And he did it effortlessly. It was great. I was really impressed. It's really hard to talk to yourself for that long.

And he did it effortlessly. I was glued. He was bringing it. I think that's going to be an awesome podcast. We're going to have it three times a week. Subscribe to it. If you like Chicago sports, if you care about the White Sox and Zach Levine and the Bulls

and this Justin Fields thing and anything else we're going to cover in Chicago, check it out. I left a voicemail for him for the second episode. We'll see if he plays it. But I was excited about that as well. But with New York, New York with John Jastrzemski and the full go with Jason Goff,

we have New York and Chicago covered for you, in my opinion, in the best possible way. So check out both of those podcasts. Coming up, my friend Daniel Kellison is going to come on and talk about Norm MacDonald and we're going to have the McCourty twins, Devin and Jason and then one of my favorite actors, John

Bernthal. But before we get that, the Norm news hit today. Had no idea it was coming. And he's just one of my favorites. I tweeted I never do RIP tweets. I hate RIP tweets. I don't really tweet that much.

I just tweet links to podcasts and very, very rarely Boston sports tweets, stuff like that. I try to stay off Twitter for the most part. But that was a rare where I had to go on and put an RIP. I think, I don't know if he was the funniest person in my life,

but he was definitely one of the people that made me laugh the hardest. And I'm one of those people that it's kind of hard to make me laugh hard. If you really get me, you're going to get me. But it's a special type of person. And Norm just fucking killed me from day one, from the moment he came on Weekend Update

and started doing those deadpan jokes with the three seconds too long stares and a half. There was, um, the guy kind of really the biggest reason to watch the show. It's weird to think that he was carrying a show that had Sandler and Farley and all those guys on it, but it just wasn't a great SNL year. And then he would come on and he would just absolutely kill it. And, you know,

I still, I still think he is my personal favorite of anyone who has hosted weekend update. I'm not saying he's the best. I think, you know, I still think he is my personal favorite of anyone who has hosted Weekend Update. I'm not saying he's the best. I think some people would say Dennis Miller. Some people would say Chevy Chase. Some people would say Tina and Jimmy. You can go on and on.

Seth Meyers was unbelievable at it. But just for me personally, Norm absolutely killed me and just had so many good ones. Ironically, I just showed my kid Dirty Work four weeks ago. My son, Ben, he'd never seen it somehow. He's been getting into comedies and put it on and he was just dying. And he was like, why haven't you ever showed me this before? It's so inappropriate. This is everything I want.

And I was like, I don't know. That's on me. That's a bad job by me. But I just really, really, really, really enjoyed three decades of Norm. So I wanted to bring on my friend, Daniel, who I've known for almost 20 years and who worked with Norm really closely on multiple projects, but wanted him to come on and talk about it. Before we do that, going to bring in Pearl Jan. All right, we're taping this. It is 2.30 Pacific time. Norm MacDonald passed away, 61 years old.

My friend Daniel Callison is here. He knew Norm the best out of anybody I knew. He worked with him a bunch of times. He was the one that introduced me to Norm. I think he probably enjoyed Norm as much as anybody. I thought Norm was, I don't know if he was the funniest person, but he's definitely in the final four for me. And he might be number one. I'd really have to sit down and make a list and really think about it. But he just hit my funny bone.

I was with him from the beginning. He was just as funny in person. He was one of a kind. And you worked with him a bunch of different times. What are you feeling today? I'm, you know, gutted. I love the guy. And that was sort of the whole thing with Norm was that, you know, my entire career has been spent trying to work with the people that I admire comedically. And, you know, I started out at Letterman and that's sort of where I first met Norm. Um, and, uh, but, you know, right away, I, I mean, Norm was the most brilliant and sort of nimble comedian I'd ever come across. And, um, and he was, uh, I mean,

he was just, he was such a contrarian. I mean, his whole comedy operated on the premise that he wanted to deliver sort of the unexpected punchline. And as you got to know him more, you sort of grew to expect the unexpected. So that became more of a challenge for him. And I think he always just rose to the occasion. He would say the sort of the craziest things and believe them and convince you of them at the same time. I thought that was his gift comedically. I thought that he was this sort of the craziest things and believe them and convince you of them at the same time.

I thought that was his gift comedically. I thought that he was this sort of very unique, really one of a kind. Like, you could never guess his punchline unless it was a super corny joke, which he also loved telling. He was also beloved

by the other comedians. I think... 100%. He was everybody's favorite comedian. Letterman told me it was his favorite comedian of all time. Wow.

Because the funny people, it's so hard to make other funny people laugh and you read about the ones that cut through. And I think Chris Farley was like this too for those SNL guys.

You could put 20 of the funniest guys in a room and Farley was always going to make somebody laugh. Yeah. I think with Norm, there was something about the delivery

and the unexpected that you mentioned that it just hit everybody's funny bone in a different way. Yeah. I mean, he was almost a comedy savant. It was really sort of an ability. I don't think, I mean, he worked very hard on his comedy, but he also was effortless. And he was also just sort of, he was there. you know i i i was trying to remember some things with norm and and you know when i talk about him being a contrarian you know he was devoutly christian he would argue forever about religion and his belief in god which came sort of i think he became more pronounced later on but people didn't believe that it was because he was such a you know contrarian they couldn't believe that he was that religious but at the same time he would extol the virtues of Charles Manson. He would talk about how great a man Charles Manson was,

how misunderstood he was. So he was like, he would always just try to like, you know, push people's buttons. Right. With, with,

with, with Norm, like you think of the stages, when did he start going on Letterman? He's on SNL and then he starts getting booked on Letterman? No. Or was it even before that as a comedian? It was before that.

In fact, he always attributed his SNL getting on SNL with Adam Sandler, which is very likely possible, even probable. But I did also, I knew Norm as a comedian, I put comedians on Letterman and I called Jim Downey, who was the head writer at SNL and talked to him and Tara Eli and told him that they should meet Norm as a writer. And that's sort of, so Norm and I knew each other very well then. We were both degenerate gamblers um and uh we

became better friends that way we played poker all the time together and uh we go to atlantic city and things like that together and uh yeah i mean we we just sort of got to know each other and then when i when i left letterman to go produce rosie o'donnell um he was eight floors above me at SNL on the 14th floor and I was on the sixth floor. And we'd hang out a lot then at that point too. So he goes, he's talk show guest, he's on SNL, he hits with Weekend Update

immediately. Yeah. And during a time when the show wasn't that good, it was kind of that guys that had stayed a little bit too long and then some new people that weren't working around. The cast was pretty bloated. And it's like the famous year when people kind of that, that the guys that had stayed a little bit too long and then some new people that weren't working around, the cast was pretty bloated. And it's like the famous year when people kind of turned on the show.

And, but I was the one bright spot. I remember at the time being a young producer, Letterman and being bummed out that I'd missed out on, you know, Bill Harmon and Dana Carvey and, uh, uh,

Bill Murray and all these like legends. And instead I was stuck with Farley, Chris Rock, David Stade, Rob Schneider, Norm. And those were sort of peers. Those were sort of like regular guys like you and I. We just didn't register to meet. And those guys would then sort of become who they became. Right.

So Norm goes through this whole thing at SNL where he's on Weekend Update. He probably was ready to start moving on anyway, but he's going after OJ just relentlessly. Yeah. And the guy who runs NBC, Don Ulmeier, was friends with OJ. And it was embarrassing for him

that he was friends with OJ. And Norm, whether he knew that or whether that was a piece of it, he couldn't get enough of OJ jokes. And it was like, he would work OJ, almost go out of his way to work OJ. And once they told him, like, hey, cool down on the OJ jokes. And it leads to him getting fired.

Yeah. No, 100%. And yes, he, we, and when he got fired and he went on Letterman and Letterman was saying, this is the travesty. Norm actually took the side of NBC. He said, no, no, they should have fired me. I wasn't listening to them. Um, but he really, you know, here's an interesting thing. And I don't know,

I might've told you this, uh, anecdotally, but I don't know whether you remember at the time when we did a, we did a sports show with Norm on Comedy Central. It was short lived, but you know, he asked me if I thought I could book OJ as a guest on the sports show. We could talk to him from the jail in Las Vegas. And so I started trying to figure it out. I talked to his lawyer for a long time and OJ agreed to come on the show. And Norm was excited because Norm only wanted to talk to him about his football career. That was the part that we didn't really... I mean, he genuinely was just going to talk to him about being a football player on the sports show.

Yeah. Never mind this exclusive interview. Then I guess OJ's lawyer figured out, did the math and figured out that Norm was the same guy who basically was relentless on his jokes. Right. And he killed the whole interview so we never got him. Oh my God. He agreed up to that point.

Norm, post SNL, he's doing, he tried, he was on sitcom, he did a couple different shows. He had a really funny Twitter golf presence

and he did YouTube stuff. He had a really funny Twitter golf presence. But let's, we should talk about it for a second because he would lose thousands of followers. But that was the funny part. Because he would drive people away.

He was a long time correspondent at Dispatch. He was doing play-by-play of the golf strokes. And people were like, hey, we can watch this on TV. And then people just stopped following him and he loved it. I mean, he would do it for a week at a time for the whole Masters.

I always thought that was the bit. He was making the most generic tweets. It was like, to what end? He's losing thousands of people following him. But it is part of the legend of Norm, yeah. During that time, you introduced me. Well, I had already met him, but you had reintroduced me

because he wanted to write a golf column for Grantland. Right. And it was like a golf gambling thing. And this was like tail end of 2012. Norm MacDonald wrote for Grantland six times. I knew he had written a couple. I didn't remember it was that many times. I remember I was his editor and we would just exchange emails. Yeah. And he would tell me, I want to write this. And I would get these random emails from all hours. And then in classic Norm fashion, he wrote six.

And then that was it. He stopped returning emails and he was done. He had done it and he wrote his six and he was good. He would famously disappear and not show up if something started rubbing him the wrong way. I think at one point, right before we did the sports show, he was doing a show with his friend Sam Simon for Showtime. And it was green

lit to series and 13 episodes. And from what I understand from Norm, right the day they started taping, he didn't show up. And then they couldn't find Norm for six months afterwards. And it was largely because Sam Simon had rewritten the script and Norm didn't like it. And Sam said, well, you know what? I'm the EP, I'm the head writer. Sorry, Norm. This is the way it's going to have to be. And Norm just goes to them, disappeared.

Like they lost, I mean, should have lost, I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars. They were literally about to start shooting. So, I mean, Norm would do that. He would just disappear famously for, I mean, Norm would do that. He would just disappear famously for, you know, months at a time. And he always had, he had Laurie Jo with him who was like, I don't know, what would

what would you describe her job as? Handler? Manager? Laurie Jo did many things for Norm and Laurie Jo was, so Laurie Jo and I were interns together, lettermen together. And, but Laurie Jo was his co-producer, his collaborator.

She worked on every show as an executive producer with them. But at the same time, Norm couldn't drive. And Norm couldn't really like, he was not made for this world in terms of, he was a little bit like Chauncey from being there. He was, he didn't feed himself well. When I first met him, all he would eat was ice cream. He would just eat ice cream bars.

That's all he ate. He was like, I don't like food and I just eat something that I like the taste of. And so, you know, Laurie Jo took care of him. She was sort of a manager, a partner. She took great care of him. She was sort of a manager, a partner. She was... She took great care of Norm. I really admire her and her ability to stick with that

because that's... You get it on the crazy train a little bit on that one. And she wrote it from beginning to end. And I mean that in the most loving way because Norm was just... He had a brilliant mind. He had a different mind than everyone else. beginning to end. And I mean that in the most loving way because Norm was just, you know, he had a brilliant mind.

He had a different mind than everyone else. Well, YouTube was great for him because YouTube pops in and a couple years in, people start posting a lot of talk show stuff and things like that. And Norm is just probably in the top three or four unassailably funny, will continue on forever,

funny YouTube clips, appearances, stuff from SNL. the top three or four unassailably funny. We'll continue on forever. Funny YouTube clips, appearances, stuff from SNL. Um, the Courtney Thorne Smith, um, Conan thing is probably the single funniest clip on YouTube.

Um, I would encourage everyone listening to this or watching this right now to do a deep dive on YouTube with Norm. I, you know, the, the, the shame for me is we did that podcast, video podcast,

and part of the appeal when I said to Norm, let's do this, it was so that he could be uncensored and say whatever he wanted to say and have whichever guess he wanted to put on it. It got to the point where he wouldn't... Seth Rogen,

biggest movie star in the world. Norm would say that he didn't know who he was and didn't want him on the show. And then we'd end up with like Fred Stoller or somebody. You know, it was just really, that's how Norm went through all this stuff. I forgot what you were saying before. Well, I was talking about the YouTube clips and the...

Oh, yeah. So anyway, so the podcast we have, you know, where he talks, Netflix bought the rights to it, and they all disappeared. None of those podcasts you can see online anymore. And there's some great ones, Letterman and Seinfeld and Jim Carrey, and some really funny ones.

I mean, Stephen Merchant came on, and for the entire hour, Norm talked about buggering and how all British comedians are famous for buggering other children

and so forth. And Stephen Merchant was like, what am I doing here? Like, it was, but it was one of the greatest, funniest things of all time and it's gone.

You know, I hope Netflix puts this stuff back out online. It was really great, Norm. It's very similar to the Super Dave thing where he wasn't as famous as Letterman and Seinfeld and all of these A-plus listers.

But if he was in the room, he somehow managed to be the funniest. What's funny, you mentioned, Super Dave was our first guest on Norm's podcast. And it was a video podcast. And we knew it would be a total clusterfuck, which it was. And we showed up on the set that first day with Norm and we didn't have a set designer. So some PA, I guess, thought it would be like a newsroom. There were clocks everywhere. There were like

12 clocks. And Super Dave came on. We were going to take him down and leave him up because Super Dave came on. He's like, what the fuck is this? Right. He's like, what are you doing here, Norm? What happened? It was hilarious. That's another one that people should find, Norm and Super Dave, because they were great together.

Was he aware of the YouTube renaissance? Norm? Like his old clips and just how that kind of became its own cottage industry? I don't know whether he was. He was on YouTube all day long, but it was mostly looking at clips of the Angry Orange, which he thought was hilarious.

You know the Angry Orange? Was it the Angry Orange? I don't know. It was some kid's thing where a piece of fruit would talk and it had hundreds of millions of views, and Norm was taken with it and would watch it endlessly on YouTube. So I know he knows about YouTube but I don't know whether

I don't know whether he knew about he would not acknowledge I don't think that things like that existed. You know, he was never sort of big on sort of self-promotion. I remember when he was writing for Grantland, I mean, Norm, we got to talk about what a degenerate gambler he was. When we were writing for Grantland, I mean, Nora, we got to talk about what a degenerate gambler he was.

When we were writing for Grantland, he wrote me into being in this fantasy golf league that he was in. And, um, and it was at the same time as the football playoffs. And we were kind of, he was when he was writing for Grantland. So we were talking anyway,

and I was telling him what picks I was going to do. And I was telling, I'd gotten all excited cause I had hit my picks in the column that week. But at the same time, I had picked this golfer to win this 150 player tournament in the fantasy league. So I'm telling him like,

I really like the Ravens or whatever. And he's like, who cares? There's a one in two chance of winning a football game. You picked a golfer who had a one in 150 chance. Like you should, like he was chance. It was like I had cured cancer or something.

He was so fired up that I just pulled this golfer out. He was so impressed. He really was a true degenerate gambler. He quit gambling. He had to stop gambling. Yeah. As all degenerate

gamblers do eventually, you lose everything. Then he had to rebuild. But I think in many ways, it was a soul crusher for him because he loved... I mean, as all the general gamblers like myself and maybe yourself like to do, it puts you in the game. You know, you're in the game when you're gambling. And I think it was really difficult for him not to gamble. But he was hilarious because he was just... I mean, talk about caution to the wind. I mean, I remember in his house, he had one of those metal coffee tins, cookie tins,

filled with $1,000 chips. He won over $100,000 in Atlantic City. But if you cash in more than $10,000, you have to pay taxes. So he kept all the chips. You know? But then he went down and lost them all. He killed them all and lost them all. And he also had a bookie who famously, he won $100,000 with a bookie on the Super Bowl,

and the bookie disappeared. Just vanished. You know, so he had... I never heard that story. Yeah, he had. The bookie ghosted Norm? Yeah, he won and he was ready to collect and the bookie just

changed his number and disappeared. Yeah, I was always worried because he had stopped gambling when he started writing about golf and gambling for the ringer and then for Grantland and then all of a sudden he was going to Vegas and I was like oh no did we get the juices going again

I know it's impossible I once turned down a job producing a show in Vegas because I thought it was six weeks long and I was like I'll be broke by the time this show ends yeah for people like us a week is about as long as I honestly say 24 hours I'll be broke by the time this show ends. Yeah. Yeah. For people like us, a week is about as long as we can go. I honestly say 24 hours is a little bit.

You're at Sal's 50th birthday party and you disappeared. We were all hanging at the pool because you were like playing poker on a Saturday afternoon. I thought that was pretty sad. It was sad. Even I couldn't justify it.

I was watching the Red Sox who were about to start their nosedive. And yeah, it was a sad weekend in that context, yes. Most people were surprised that Norm had been sick for this long. I would say all people were surprised. Nobody knew that he had been sick for nine years. It was a pretty well-kept secret, but when did you know that he wasn't 100%? Well, it's interesting.

A lot of people, as you can imagine, we've been texting back and forth, but Sarah Silverman texted me today and said, hey, did you know that Norm was sick? That she didn't. And I didn't know either. I mean, as I said to her, I sort of knew that he was unwell. He didn't seem I didn't know that it was cancer. I didn't know that he was as sick as he was.

But I understand why you didn't tell people. I think that makes sense as a comedian. It's really hard to tell the jokes and have people laugh if they're feeling sorry for you at that moment or feeling even empathy for you at that moment. I think you make that announcement and then you sort of say, and see you guys later. And I don't, I think Norm wanted to

keep it, yeah. But I hadn't, yeah, it had been a while since I'd seen him, but of course COVID too, I just assumed he was just put on a way for COVID. Yeah, you could tell the last 10 years,

you could tell from a health standpoint, it wasn't perfect. But I certainly also didn't think he was battling cancer for the last nine years. Yeah. Well, he also, like I was talking about the eating before, like, I mean, we did a montage once. He, I think for comedic effect,

he would start eating during the podcast and just shove fried chicken in his mouth and that. Or eat platefuls of eggs. He was eating egg whites. start eating during the podcast and just shove fried chicken in his mouth or eat platefuls of eggs. He was eating egg whites, but by the two dozens, you know, like putting ketchup all over them and like you eat these during the podcast

and it was hilarious, but you know, I think it spoke to the idea that yeah, it was, I don't know Norm, I hoped he'd live forever. I mean, he just seemed like the type who might just sort of like defiantly defy the odds and sort of just keep going. I was,

I was really shocked and, uh, I was, yeah, I was shocked in this one. You spent a lot of like dead time with him where you're killing time with him. You're in his dressing room.

He would be, you know, he'd be in his dressing room for five hours or he would be in some back room and he really didn't like a lot of people around, right? It was always like, he was always most comfortable

if it was like four or five people. Yeah. What kind of norm zen, what were the moments that stand out when you look back? Because he would start making fun of people. Oh, yeah. He would lay back for like 40 minutes

and then pop in and all of a sudden, you didn't know if he was even paying attention, but he clearly was. Yeah. No, that was his sort of... I think I said it to you right before this. There's a YouTube montage called Norm shitting on his producer,

which is him just being relentless with me. And you're the producer. I'm the producer. And it's hilarious to me. I mean, he would say things like that my wife demanded I spit in her face during sex to Gilbert Gottfried, he tells us to.

And he would tell this to Gilbert Gottfried while I'm actually out there. But it was sort of like, we all like, it was hilarious because it was like, what are you doing? What are you talking about? You're not allowed to say that.

Yeah. Right. But I mean, he was, that was Norm. He just, he, and I think behind the scenes too, he was, you know, ruthlessly funny, but also very kind and very gentle and very interested in family. He was very close to his own mother.

He was a doting father with his son, Dylan. He was a good man. I think that there were plenty of people who didn't get Norm. Not plenty, but there were some who didn't get norm.

We thought that, you know, who's just being defiant for no reason. But I really thought there was always a purpose is defiance. So why do you think he never had that one thing that just hit in the same way that he hits with people where, you know, like post post Saturn lab,

basically like he had a bunch of different swings, right? But you probably put, well you probably put more thought into this question than anybody who's worked with them, I'm guessing. Well, I think he was a self saboteur in many ways too. He, he, he, I think he would get uncomfortable at having a lot of success. Like he would turn down movie parts and he would tell the people, I'm a terrible actor. And he was always sort of really

clear about not wanting to... I don't know. Here's a story that I love that I don't think many people know about Norm, which is that Norm had a show that he modeled on Bob Newhart's show which was him as an innkeeper

you remember this show? I think it was called The Norm Show or something like that it was the second Norm sitcom it was the second Norm sitcom the first one he was like a social worker right, that was a different one but this one he was an innkeeper up in Vermont

and they cancelled the show about four episodes in. And it never got to... The whole idea of the show was that he was going to be like a Newhart-like innkeeper for the first four episodes. And then in the fifth episode, his wife was going to be brutally murdered. And then he was going to turn into Matlock and try to solve crimes for the rest of the show. And he never had the chance to make that show because it got cancelled before he could get the scene

to murder his wife. His wife was going to be murdered rather. Yes, yes, yes. So is episode five his wife just brutally murdered? Yes. It turns into a detective show? It turns into a detective show and he becomes Matlock, basically. Oh, so disappointed.

I know. It would have been great. You know, I don't know. I mean, you know, the problem was that everyone would tell Norm not to do things and people were worried

that he was going to say things that were going to be, you know, get them in trouble as networks and so forth. And, you know, they really just had to let Norm

be Norm and let him do his thing and say his thing. That's when you got the best version of Norm. The 2000s when whatever could have happened for him post-SNL that was his quote-unquote

prime as an artist. That was a really weird time for TV. It was between these two worlds of the streaming world's coming, the legacy 1990s world of how we do shows where it's like half hour sitcom or drama. And those are the only two ways you do stuff. Yeah. And he just,

he was never like a half hour sitcom guy. I didn't feel like, but he would have been like, you know, a Curb Your Enthusiasm type like that. There was some show that nobody created for him. Or,

even if he had had like a season long run on Curb Your Enthusiasm, but there was some role where I basically think he would have had to play himself. Yeah.

And just done Norm stuff. But there, it just never happened. I know. It's, it's a shame. It's a, it's a shame,

but I think it's part of what his path was supposed to be. He always wanted to host a game show. That was always his goal. And he was always really good. He's a very smart guy. And he wanted to host a game show. And that never happened either, which I thought would be great on a game show. Well, you saw him on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, right? Right. You remember that? Yeah. We just talked him out of going for the million dollars

and he had the answer correct. And he yelled at Regis afterwards. I don't know if you remember that clip or not. You probably know it on YouTube too. But Regis was like, Hey, it's a lot of money. $500,000. You got to stop right here.

And I was like, I think I know the answer. He's like, Hey, listen, you go down to $32,000. No screwing around here. I was like, Okay, I give up.

Fine. $500,000. He said, What was your answer? And he got it right. You got to around here. I was like, okay, I'll give up. Fine. 500,000. He said, what was your answer? And he got it right. You got to watch it. It's hilarious. It's weird that Norm who gambled on everything would have not gambled on the 500. I guess he was doing it for charity, probably. I got him to go on

for Project ALS when I was on the board. I got Edie Falco and Ben Stiller and a bunch of people to play for Project ALS. Our friend Michael Davies produced that show and they were doing a charity celebrity version. And I got Norm to go on, but then Norm decided he didn't want to do it for my charity. He was doing it for Paul Newman's Hole in the Wall gang.

And of course, he had no relationship with Paul Newman at all. I was the entire Paul Newman. That's who he played for. There's going to be a memorial service, I'm guessing? I don't know I reach out to Mark Berwitz's manager I reach out to Laurie Jo I'm sure there will be

I would imagine there's going to be comedy royalty coming in to pay their respects including Letterman yeah I would hope so yeah I don't know anything about it yet I mean I think it just happened this morning. Yeah. The most fascinating kind of

career wrinkle with him was how much Letterman loved him. I mean, he was on one of Letterman, what was his, his last show or second last show? His final standup,

yeah. Yeah, I mean, in fact, you know, this is the thing, when Letterman came on to do our podcast,

you know, it was a big thing that we got Letterman. He wasn't doing anything. He wasn't doing anything. And I think that he just said the norm was so important. And then afterwards,

he said to me, hey, if there's anything I can do to help you guys with this show, I think it's funny. I'd like to help you. And that's when we brought up Netflix. And we brought it. But Dave became a producer with this on

Netflix we got the show on Netflix but yeah Dave loved him and like I said I think he was Dave's favorite comedian if there's such a thing you know yeah I mean everybody really I don't know anybody who didn't like his comedy really

it was so yeah it's weird to have an entertainer who had such a high approval rating. Where people either loved him or they had no opinion. That's kind of where you want to be. Yeah, he's like 100% Rotten Tomatoes with the comedians. He really was. He really was. Alright, Daniel Kellison.

Normally we just talk about the Red Sox. We usually don't talk about somber stuff. The freaking Blue Jays came on like a freight train. Well, I'm not even going to talk to you about that. You being a Blue Jays advocate. I'm not a Blue Jays advocate. It's not what I...

They're unbelievable, but I hope that I'll be back and we make it to the wild card. That's all I'm hoping. We make it to the wild card. That's all I'm hoping. We make it to the wild card. For the audience listening, I wagered on the Blue Jays at 75-1 two weeks ago.

I'm fine mentioning it. As you know, gambling, sometimes you just have to make smart bets. And they had a huge stretch coming up with the Yankees who had no bullpen and the Orioles. And our team was falling apart. The Yankees were falling apart. And I'm like, I might as well,

the Red Sox aren't winning the World Series this year. I might as well ride the bootjays because I think they have a chance. I had the Red Sox in 61-1 World Series this year, which I bought at the beginning of the year. Well, that's not winning.

I won. I had the Red Sox over under at 81 and I couldn't be happier about it. I'm very proud of myself. Oh, I had that. I had that. Well, you do that every year. That's not fair.

I won in 2013, the rebuild year. 40-1 I won. The thing Daniel does for the people listening, he bets on the Red Sox every year, which was always the worst bet in the world until 2004 when you won. And then you won four times since

and it just kept going. And they would juice the odds pre-2004 to make it so that, you know, idiots like us would go to Vegas, like, ah, I'm going to put something down in the Red Sox. They would always make the odds way worse than they should have been. And then you finally won,

and now you've won four times. But you won't be winning. Yeah, it's like the safety bet of the Super Bowl. It's the same thing. You can't get 60 to 1 anymore. You ruined it because you kept doing it and then Sal and I kept

talking about it on podcasts and then they changed the odds on it. You even said at one point, and I love this, it's like, I'm going to go out on a limb because it was like 32 to 1 after we won it.

He's like, I will bet $1,000. I will bet $32,000 to win $1,000. I will bet $32,000 to win $1,000. That is not going to happen. What was the one Brady threw an interception in the Super Bowl? No, he had an intentional grounding in the

end zone. Yeah. And it was a safety. And you're at a Super Bowl party, allegedly a huge Patriot fan. You're cheering the safety. We won the game, I think. What the hell? and you're at a Super Bowl party, allegedly a huge Patriot fan, you're cheering the safety. You know, we won the game, I think. So, you know, what the hell. Yeah, you're in the

Degenerate Gambling Hall of Fame. Thank you for that. So is Norm. RIP to Norm. Thanks for sharing your memories with him. It was good to see you, Daniel Kellis. Great seeing you too. Bye-bye.

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has stayed there forever. Three-time champ. And then Jason, who passed through our vortex and then left us for our biggest rival, one of our biggest rivals, the Miami Dolphins, but we're still talking to him. He's a one-time champ. You guys won a championship together, Super Bowl, the Rams. All right, we're doing a speed round. I want to get as many questions as I possibly can.

So we'll start here. You guys went head-to-head on Sunday. Miami sneaks it out. Jason, your team ended up winning. What is the taunting rules with your brother after the game? What happens? Do you give him shit immediately? Do you wait six hours?

You guys have been competing your whole lives. What do you do? It was immediately the last drive where our offense was on the field. Once we got the first down and started taking knees, I was from the sideline yelling his name. Started talking trash before the game even hit zeros on the field. And once we got the first down and started taking knees, I was from the sideline yelling his name, started talking trash before the game even hit zeros on the clock. What were you saying, Devin? I ignored him. I didn't hear him. After the game, Jalen Mills told me,

Jalen Mills, your brother was screaming your name on the sideline. I was still blocking out the noise. So was there a bet? Do you guys have little wagers on this? Dinners? What happens? What are your legal wagers on this? Just a lot of trash talk. Dev's been talking. We worked out together all summer. He's been talking trash to me all summer.

So it was just a ton of trash talking, bragging rights. So I have the bragging rights for now, but they're going to get another crack at it at the end of the season. So we'll see how it goes. Devin, has the trash talking ever gone too far? Have you guys ever had to be separated? What was the worst trash talking competitive thing you guys got into?

Not from trash talking, but back in 2011, we were working out together at Rutgers and we exchanged some words and all our former teammates had to get in between us to calm us both down. We get pretty competitive training together and going after it. What do you... Obviously, brothers, is there weird stuff you compete in, like Scrabble, Checkers, any sort of dumb games, video games? What else do you guys do? Growing up, it was video games and one-on-one basketball games. We would play video games, and my mom would be in the other room yelling at us to cut it off.

And then we'd go outside, and we'd just play against each other, no score being kept. And we would just go at it. And those games would usually end in a fight, and our mom making us come in the house, too. So those two things growing up for us, that brought out I guess the best and the worst in us. Who's better at basketball? Gun to your head. Both of you said I am. Are your games similar or do you have different

games? Because usually with twin brothers, they end up doing different roles in basketball for some reason. Yeah, I would say we both play off each other. He's more of a point guard. I'm more of an off guard. I'm more of an off guard. I usually would guard the better ball handler and he'd be off the ball on defense. So, we

definitely played off each other. Are you allowed to play basketball anymore? By the football contract, you're not allowed? Or you can sneak it out? No, we can still play. I played for a while up until probably the last few years. As I've gotten older, it's not as easy in the offseason to get out there and hoops. I've had to lay the shoes to rest.

Yeah, just wait till you hit your early 40s. Everything goes all at once. All right, more speed round. Jason, make me feel good about Mac Jones, my new hero. Man, he didn't make any mistakes in the game. He was poised. Even between plays, he's yelling at the offense to get it going. Just a guy that seemed in total control of the offense,

making checks at the line of scrimmage. Even when we watched him on film in the preseason, he was like, this guy's a rookie, but he's playing like a veteran out there. So we kind of knew, like, all right, we're going to have to bring our best game to be able to defeat him. Devin, when did you know you had one with Mack? I think when he came in, just to see how he kind of went about everything.

You know, obviously, I tell people all the time, transitioning from college to NFL quarterback, it's hard to know what any of these guys can do. But I would say Mack's kind of attitude and his approach to the game, I think made a lot of the veterans really like him and love what he was doing. Gets mad at himself. He's hard on himself a lot. And I think a lot, I know I said to him one time, like, man, you're a rookie, you're gonna make some mistakes, just keep going. And I think guys saw right away, you know,

what he wanted to do and, you know, the control that he had when he was out on the field, the poise. So it's been fun so far just watching his growth from training camp all the way to week one. Is it important for a rookie QB? Jason, you can answer this. The rookie QB's got to come in. He's got to win over the linemen. He has to be like one of the guys.

What else does that person have to do in that situation, especially if he's a first-round pick? Perform. I think at the end of the day, our league is a performance-based league. We have friends and guys we've played with for a long time. When somebody comes in that locker room, you go out on that field and they perform, there's nothing guys respect more than a guy that can go out there and play ball.

So I think whether you're a rookie quarterback or rookie receiver, corner, whatever it is, if you get out there and you can play some football, God's going to respect you and love you. Well, I was impressed. I thought the second half, especially because the Dolphins defense was really good in that game, and he kind of managed the speed of it, which was unusual for a rookie. All right, this is for both of you.

Jason, you can take it first. Bill Belichick, funnier than people realize, less funny than people realize, or exactly as funny as we think? Funnier than people realize, for sure. A lot funnier than people realize. It's funny how often it happens. A guy comes in, call it within the first week. Even Matt Judon sits by me at Hightower in the meeting. Judon's laughing nonstop in the meeting. He kind of looks at us like, why are you not laughing? I'm like, we've just been here for a while.

These guys, they just do not expect some of the things that come out of Bill's mouth. It's pretty funny. It seems like he has the biggest misperception between his press conferences, which is what America judges him by, right? He's as boring as possible in those press conferences versus what everybody says behind the scenes. So Jason, you must have been stunned when you came to the Patriots.

Or did your brother condition you? I had nine years of listening to Dev talk about it. So I, walking into that building, I knew a lot of kind of what goes on and who's what. So I learned a lot from Dev leading up to joining the team. And you'd played for a few head coaches at that point. Yeah.

Did four different ones in Tennessee and then Cleveland. Yeah. How many did you have in Cleveland? Just one. After the first year in Cleveland, I told my agent I wasn't going back. See, five head coaches, and then you go to Belichick,

the greatest coach of all time. What was the biggest thing where you were like, oh, I get why he's this good. This now makes sense. Did you have a moment like that in the first few weeks? No, I wouldn't say that. I think just overall, I think just being in New England,

I think their ability of everybody moving in the same direction on one accord from Bill to RKK to management to coaching staff to the training room, equipment room, everybody just moves on one accord. And I think for me throughout my career leading up to that point, I didn't really know what that looked like. And getting there, being able to see everybody on the same page, it makes a huge difference. And obviously, they've been very successful over the past two decades. Devin, you've had him for 11 years now.

Does he have an old guy moment yet? Is he calling people by the wrong names or forgetting where he is, none of that stuff? Well, he's always going to call people by the wrong name and jack people's names up, but not on purpose. But I think one of the greatest things about him is his consistency. You're going to get the same thing out of him.

And I've learned that from wins and losses. If we win and we don't play well after the game, that's exactly what we're going to hear about. And I've played in games where we've played well and the team just outplayed us and got us on the last play or something like that. We come in the locker room and he shoots it to you straight. And I think that's what guys like that play

for Bill is that it's going to be the same thing. You know what you're going to get from him. And I think guys really appreciate that. Jason, when you came in, Devin was one of the leaders of the team. And you're coming in as the new guy, but it's your brother. How do you navigate that as

a teammate and being respectful for his position on the team, but it's also your brother, the guy you've been talking shit to for your entire life? I continue to talk the same way to him as I always have. And I think one thing, I think what helped me was I had already had to transition. I spent the first eight years in Tennessee, then had to transition to Cleveland. So when I got to New England, it was my second time having to do so. And I kind of learned that whole time is, man, you just got to be yourself. And I think when I got to New England, not only did there were so many leaders on that team that I was able to just get

there, get acclimated and be myself. And I think the one thing that a lot of people in the building appreciated from me was that I was a guy that was going to put Dev in his place when needed to be so. So I think that was a lot of fun, those three years. You know how siblings are, especially brothers. Devon, when Jason told you he was leaving, you probably knew he might be leaving, but what kind of conversation did you have? Did you think it was just going to be like you guys were going to finish your career at the Pats or did you know there

was an end game? No, I mean, it was funny because even when he, the year he was in Cleveland after the season, I was like, man, like you got to get out of there.

It's about to be year 10. You can't stick around and never rebuild. And obviously we've seen what they've done. But I still remember when he told me like, Hey, they're releasing me. I text now his head coach, Brian Flores, and was like, hey, man, they're about to release J-Mac. That'd be a great

pickup for us. And I was like, man, should I just hit up Bill? And he was like, yeah. And I remember shooting Bill a text message like, hey, two McCourty's are better than one. And he didn't text me back. So I guess he figured J-Mac wasn't really that good. And then probably about 45 minutes later, calls me and tells me that they're trading for him. So, you know, you get three great years. And then this year with free agency, just, you know, he could tell you about the process of kind of waiting.

And, you know, I think once he got an offer from Miami and then the Giants, I believe it was kind of figuring out the best situation from those two teams that he actually had offers from. And that's when we kind of knew it was at the end and it was over with. But we enjoyed every moment of those last three years. Yeah, but Jason Belichick was just interested because you were a Rutgers guy. It wasn't because that was it. He's got that Rutgers fetish. He just loves the Rutgers guys.

We need more. Yeah. Flores, they always talk about the Belichick coaching tree. And he is the most Belichicky kind of coach, I think, out of all these guys that we've had. And even that game you just beat us in on Sunday, that was a classic game like in the 2000s. That was a classic Patriots win, right?

Where it's like the other teams got, oh man, this should happen. That shouldn't happen. And you're like, all right, cool. We're one and oh. You can keep talking. But what are the similarities with Belichick and Flores and how are they different?

It's so hard to compare. I won't kind of go back and forth on both of those guys. I would just say with Flo, he's himself. And I think guys have liked that and got acclimated and have bought into just who he is as a person and who he is as a coach. And I think for me, it's been fun to be a part of this team. Flo brings consistency each and every day of who he is

and what his expectations are for us, especially being a young team. I think every time we step foot in that boat and we know what it is, our expectations are and what the goals are for the day. And guys are attacking that each meeting at a time, each practice, each game. And we're just going to continue that process and see where it puts us at the end of the season. He's also, there's a calmness to him on the sidelines that I always thought was about... When Belichick

gets mad on the sidelines, you know something actually happened. And Flores is the same way, where there's some sort of demeanor to him that I think... When I watch... I'm watching four football games on a Sunday, and you see some of these coaches, and they're just frantic, and they're going nuts.

And you're like, man, that's not what really works really works devin what's your best belichick story somebody's like you have 45 seconds to tell me the greatest belichick story you have you have to tell me now what is it i don't have like i mean i think it's they've all been told so many times i feel like with bill um but i would say i do remember when i first got there so obviously you talked about the ruckus connection his relationship with my former uh head coach at ruckus he's back there now greg shano um and they're very different as far as like coach shano is he's very emotional. He could get going. He could be yelling at you. And Bill's calm.

But within 20 minutes, Bill is going to feel like he's cursing you out at times just because of how much he curses. And I remember my first meeting, he kind of was going off. And then at the end, he just smiles at me as I'm walking by him. And he goes, a little different than being at Rutgers, huh? And I just laughed because, you know, as a rookie, when you come into that building, you're like, how can I avoid talking to Bill as much as possible? You don't want to, you know what I mean? It's like the principle.

And when he said that, I was just like, oh, maybe this guy's kind of cool. And then obviously our relationship has grown since then of being here now in my 12th year. But just little things like that he always kind of surprises you with Jason people consider the Patriots Rams Super Bowl to be the least entertaining Super Bowl of the 21st

century I loved it I consider it a defensive classic what are people missing about that game? Why did that fall flat to the general football fans? What's the biggest thing they're missing? You're asking the right guy.

Yeah, because so far that was the best Super Bowl out of all 50, at that time, 53 of them. That was by far the best one. I tell Patriots fans while I was there the whole time, out of the six of them, that was by far the best one. I tell Patriots fans while I was there the whole time that out of the six of them, that was by far the best one. But I think we've become so enamored by we turn the TV on and whether it's Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes and quarterbacks are just throwing the ball all over the field. And it's just the scores are so high. And I think we take for granted the ability at

that point, the Rams were, I think, averaging 35 points a game. The ability to go out there and shut a team down in the Super Bowl and credit to the Rams defense as well, being able to stop us for the most part and Brady and Gronk and Edelman. But I think sometimes we take for granted how hard it is, especially in today's NFL, with all of the rules and flags going against the defense to be able to go out there and execute at that level and be able to perform that way for a full 60 minutes. Yeah. It was similar to the first Superbowl.

We won. I told you I'm on the team. We beat the Rams where the Rams came in and they had this offense and they're like, this is what we do. You can't stop it. And then Belichick's like, well,

we're going to take away all the things you'd like to do in this offense and you're going to have to go to a plan B. And each time with the 2001 Rams and the 2018 or whatever year that was Rams, they kind of didn't know how to go to the plan B. And you guys were like, cool, we're going to do this. In retrospect, Devin, was there a thing they should have done or were you guys,

they just weren't scoring on you that day? No, I think, I think that's the fun part about being here is each week, as Jay knows from the three years. Yeah. We had a new game plan. Like it was,

we weren't going to do what we did the week before. And that Superbowl was really a credit to that. Cause we, we changed that basically what we did all year. You know, we were probably 98% man to man, and I would say in that game, we probably only played 30% to 40% man-to-man in the whole game. And I think that's what was tough.

And they did try to do some different things, but I really would say it was a big credit to our front seven. They played so well up front and stopping the run that we were able to do so many different things in the secondary and the things that Bill was thinking that we could do, we were able to execute. I remember talking to him that year, and he said that. He said, when you have a lot of smart, good football players, he said, as a coach, the different things that you come up with that you want to do, sometimes you just don't have the personnel from just a mental standpoint

to be able to do all of those things. He said, but when it blends together, that's when you know you have a chance to have a really good defense or good team if it's on the offensive side of the ball as well. So that year was a combination, I think, of just really good coaching, coming up with game plans, then as players, getting together, sitting down and executing it and knowing what our weaknesses were and what our strengths were.

And I think that's what we were able to do in that game. This year's defense, when Gilmore comes back, I think could get to that level. Yeah, I think we have good components. We're building a good relationships and communication part. And I think even in that 18 team, Jay, he was there early in the season. We weren't that good of a defense. We went down to Jacksonville and got spanked,

went to Detroit week two and got spanked. It was just, it had to continue to progress and get better and better. And I think that's something that we can look back and say, hey, that was a lot of hard work that went into that. And we can try to take that mentality into this year. I mean, the Chiefs game was the game from that postseason.

Holy shit. Yeah, that shocked a lot of people. And we put a lot of work into doing that. And I was in a lot of film study, a lot of in practice, talking about different things that was happening in practice. Like, ah, we don't like that. We got to change that. And that defensive coaching staff had no problem communicating with us as players

and all of us kind of being like, let's figure this out together. And I think that's what was so fun about that whole run. Jason Mahomes, best quarterback you've ever played against, or is it somebody else? He's too young for me to put him right there at the top of me. I was in the league going against Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. So it's just, by the time he's done, he's going to be in that conversation. But, man, I remember I was earlier in my career.

We played in Foxborough, lost to Brady, 59 to zip. And the next week, had to go back home and play against the Colts and lost to Peyton Manning. You talk about a two-game stretch as a rookie out there watching those two guys go to work. Unbelievable. Was there anything different about them when you're going against them back-to-back

like that? Did one guy do something that the other guy didn't do and vice versa, or was it just like they're just reading everything you guys are doing and picking it apart? I would say the difference and I think Dev can probably speak to this too, when you go against a division opponent

the information and what you put into it because of what you know is so drastically different versus going against an opponent outside the division so when we came up to go against New England and then obviously they tore us apart. The game was rain, snow, and the whole nine. But when we got ready to play against Peyton Manning,

I mean, the notes and the stuff we got was about this high of all the communication at the line of scrimmage. So for me as a rookie coming in, I'm just like, man, the amount of work that we are putting in to go against a Peyton Manning. But I think it's because you know more. You go against the same team twice a year, every year. Whereas New England's in another division, it's every few years.

You don't get the same intel. So it's hard to know as much. So I remember early on, me and Deb used to always talk about the comparisons. He got a chance to see Tom every day in practice. And me going against Peyton twice a year, we'd argue about who was the better quarterback. But I think when you're having arguments like that, it becomes pointless after a while when the two guys are that good.

Well, you know who won the argument? Brady. He's still playing. Manning's a broadcaster. Brady went five years past him. Who do you have, Devin? Who's the best quarterback you ever played against? Or are you still waiting? Not for me, it's Tom.

I mean, obviously I haven't played him in a game. But in practice every day, going against him, his competitiveness each day in practice, that obviously made us better as a defense. And that was a part of, I think, even at the end of seasons, us being better was, you know, with Bill, you're going to go over a three in practice. You know, we're not going to start the season and just go scout team.

We're going to continue to get the work of good on good. So, yeah, seeing Tom every day in practice, it was tough because he does whatever it takes to win. You know, it's not always going to be 500 yards passing. It can be, but it could be something totally different, but he's going to get the team and the offense in the best situation to have a bunch of positive plays and then ultimately

try to win the game. Jason, you came into the Brady Patriots run pretty late. Did you ever think he would leave? You don't have any of that. Like Devin has this whole backstory. He's been playing with them like half of Brady's career.

When you were there, did it seem like a reasonable scenario that he was going to go? I think for me, when I saw the Indianapolis Colts cut Peyton Manning and he has a statue at their stadium. All bets are off. You'd be crazy to think that a guy is determined to finish his career in one place. It's just our league.

And I think nobody at the time sat there and was just like, oh, yeah, Brady will be gone in a year or two. I don't think you can envision it when you've had that level of success for that long. But in reality, you know, I mean, any of those guys, Dev, Hightower, they've played there a long time. But it's not a guarantee that because you play played there a long time, but there's not a guarantee that because you play a place a long time,

you'll retire there. And obviously for Brady, it was hard to argue and say it wasn't the right decision as he hoisted his seventh Super Bowl trophy last year. He looks, he actually looks better than he has in the last couple of years. I was really impressed that Dallas came. Best receiver you guys have ever gone against?

I always say the quarterback dictates it. I think I say that because I played against Andre Johnson in the division in Houston, who was a monster, but didn't always have the quarterback to get him the ball. I would just say, just strictly physically, Calvin Johnson was

unbelievable. I mean, you'd have him covered. He'd run an end cut. You'd beat him out the break, and you'd turn back to look for the ball, and it looks like it's seven feet high, and you turn back over your shoulder, and he's up in the air grabbing it out the sky. So he was just unbelievable just to try to match his speed and physicality playing in play out. My toughest matchup was just when I was playing corner.

I was going against Brandon Marshall. He was in Miami. Then he went to the Jets, and you would have to fight and claw with this guy outside. He'd drop his head and bull rush you, then throw you for a release. So it was always a struggle for me, especially as a young player, trying to go against Brandon Marshall the two times a year we were playing when he was in Miami and New York on the Jets. That's interesting.

I would have guessed Tyreek Hill just because if you make any sort of mistake, it's a 75-yard touchdown. But it's the more physical guys who are the... I would say there's not many times with Tyreek Hill's speed, when you watch him, there's not many times people are covering him without somebody over the top. So it's a different ball game.

When you're out there and you're going against a guy one-on-one for an entire game of just the whole everything that goes into it. Worst burn you've ever had in an NFL game? The one that haunts you the most?

That's easy for me. Eagle Super Bowl slant that Zach Ertz caught with I want to say like 230 or 240 left in the game. I would say DeAndre Hopkins caught a touchdown on me

to end the game. I think that might have been his rookie year in Houston. A fade ball on the sideline got his two feet down i have no idea how i guess i know now as you watch every sunday and he's doing it on everybody but um that was that was a tough one you lose the game on a catch that you gave up devin ranked these wins for me one through four falconsbowl chiefs, AFC title game Ravens 35 to 31 at home. Remember that one? Edelman touchdown Seahawks Superbowl. Seahawks Superbowl first.

Kansas city. Oh wow. That AFC championship game. Ravens three and Atlanta Atlanta Super Bowl 4. Interesting. I say that because, obviously, the Seahawks are my first ever Super Bowl win. We had lost a bunch of times. I lost in the Super Bowl, lost in the AFC Championship a bunch of times. So finally getting over that, Kansas City was,

they can't win a playoff game on the road. And it dated back to, I forgot, it was 03, I think, or whatever year, or 04, when we beat Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh was the last time we had won a playoff game on the road. So that was kind of like a no-win situation. And then Baltimore, to me, we went down 14 points twice in a playoff game. I think we ran the ball nine times that game. And then I had an interception in third quarter,

and Deron Harmon finished it with a fourth quarter at Rutgers, guys. And Atlanta, I mean, it was awesome. But I don't know, the game, being able to watch it had to be great. Playing in it was just like, you didn't think. Because we were behind by so much. You were just playing for pride. We were like, man, we're just going to keep playing, see what happens. So you're just in the middle of it.

And I feel like even when I've re-watched it, it feels better to watch it than to be in it. To be in the middle of it. And I feel like even when I've rewatched it, it feels better to watch it than to be in it. To be in the field. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. Wait, I had one more question for Jason. Devin's first rounder, no brainer. You were sixth rounder and everybody missed

on you and you guys are still in the lead together. What did they miss with you? Because I think the draft is such an inexact science. When you think back to it, how did they fuck that up? I would say Deb redshirted our freshman year at Rutgers. In hindsight, we both probably

should have redshirted, but I would say what also was helpful was my rookie year, I get into the league as a six-round draft pick. I make the team. I play a little bit on defense. I'm showing up big on special teams in the kicking game. And then a year later, Dev comes out after a superb senior year. His senior year was by far a lot better than my senior year at Rutgers.

So I think you couple that with he has an identical twin who came in as a late rounder, but has carved out a niche and looks like he's going to be in this league for a little while. And now we look at Dev's college state. Well, we have an idea of what it may look like in the pros because his brother's there. So I think those two things. But, I mean, his senior year, I watched all the games. I mean, he just played his butt off.

I mean, they played UConn for a game. He returned a kick for a touchdown. I think he played in like 120 plays between defense and special teams. Yeah, a lot of people went and re-evaluated my film after he started three games at a stretch during his rookie year. I remember talking to Coach Shandle

and he was like, scouts have come back to kind of re-watch. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, it was interesting. You guys do some great stuff with charity. Can we talk about this? kind of rewatch. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, it was interesting. You guys do some great stuff with charity. Can we talk about this?

Because I just know from the Boston side, Devin's done so much over the years, but you guys have collaborated on some stuff. So let's talk about it. Yeah, man.

It's just been awesome. I think especially people that don't know, we do a ton of work in Sickle Cell in September and Sickle Cell Awareness Month. So we've gotten the opportunity to team up with Aflac, who has already been doing great work. They kind of, of work in sickle cell in september is sickle cell awareness month so we've gotten the opportunity to

team up with athletic who has already been doing great work they kind of they fix that gap when people don't have you know either insurance or enough money they're the insurance company that comes in and fills the gap and they created these uh these ducks these my ducks that uh have been helping cancer patients they go in we uh got to connect with the duck in Jersey. We both have one where it'll talk to you. It'll describe how you feel to the doctor. So it's pretty cool. And these kids are a lot of times end up in the hospital for a long period of time. And just having a duck that kind of turns into a new companion in a way and a communicator for you. It's been great. They've given these out to 12,000

kids between the U.S. and Japan, and it's made a world of difference for people to stay in the hospital and then being able to take it home and still use it. So it's a great thing to have. We've been very blessed and appreciate the support that AFLAC has helped us with sickle cell and helping spread awareness. Yeah, definitely. And like you said, the My Special Aflac Duck, starting in 22, they'll actually be giving them out to sickle cell patients as well. And sickle cell is a disease that runs in Devin and myself's family. And that's why we've done the work we've done over the past decade to be able to get involved and bring awareness and bring funds. And the partnership with Aflac Press was a no-brainer. I mean, they've been doing this for a long time, decade to be able to get involved and bring awareness and bring funds. And the partnership

with Aflacross was a no-brainer. I mean, they've been doing this for a long time. For probably the past 25 years, they've invested about $155 million when it comes to patients and patients with blood disorders. So we're excited to be able to help them help us get a message that we feel strongly about at Aflac across and just continue to spread awareness to sickle cell patients and patients with different blood disorders. All right. Well, congrats on all that. That sounds great. And Jason, we'll see you again later in the season. Don't enjoy that one week one win too much. Nobody remembers week one when we get to December, January. Those are the Belichick months. So we'll be waiting for you. We're on to the next one.

All right. Good to see you guys. Thank you. See you. All right. This last piece was something that I did a week and a half ago. Got to interview Jon Bernthal. I actually requested this. I don't even know if he's doing junkets or whatever, but Allison, our wonderful booker, who's just the all-time best. I love her. She's done a great job for The Ringer and is one of my absolute favorites. And she always badgers me to get people to come on the pod. And we've just been really busy with football basketball. I'm sure you've noticed. we haven't had a lot of celebrity guests lately. And, um, so she sent me this long list and then I sent her back a couple of names. And one of them was like, I just love John Bernthal. Can he just come on? I just want to talk to him about his career. I love all the

choices he makes and I'm a huge fan of his. And so she made it happen. And here is the interview. So you've had fans first at Grantland, then at The Ringer. We've been in on you for years and years. I feel like I would say we buy stock in people. And I have stock and I had stock in this person way back when. The stock on you has been climbing. I'm feeling really good about it. I feel good about the portfolio. And now you're in like 20 projects coming up. But I think one of the things I respect about you so much, the choices you make with the different projects. You look at your IMDb and I'm just like, oh, I like that one. That was good. Oh, I see why he did that. But it seems like

you put a lot of thought into your choices in your career. Am I totally misreading it? Look, man, first of all, it's a, it's a,

it's an honor to be here, man. And I'm, I'm, I'm a huge fan of yours and I appreciate, I appreciate what you said and your support. And, uh,

look, you know, I think in the beginning, you know, I, I think there was no sort of master plan or rhyme or reason to, to any of it. You know, you just, you just, you, beginning, you know, I think there was no sort of master plan or rhyme or reason to any of it. You know, you just you just, you know, clawing and scraping for whatever kind of work that you can get. And I was sort of blessed with the great misfortune of having an enormous giant beaten up nose and huge frickin flappy ears. So that kind of shielded me, I think, from, you know, the daytime soaps and

the WB stuff, you know, where I think a lot of actors kind of go to sort of cut their teeth, you know, I would walk into those rooms and casting directors will kind of look at me in horror because of, you know, just my appearance, you know, but I think, you know, this whole thing, this whole thing, I think, for me, what I love about this is, you know, like athletics, it's not, you know, it's really not about arriving somewhere. You're lucky enough to be in something that you can keep growing, keep learning, keep getting better. And how do you do that? I think the way you do that is to sort of surround yourself with the best people. And so for me, I just, my whole philosophy is what is

available to me? What can I go and fight for to be among people that I really admire, I really look up to? And that's sort of been the criteria. It hasn't been sort of a master plan of, okay, well, I need to kind of change my image. I read something, you know, something happens sort of inside me. If I get a little bit afraid, a little bit like, holy, holy crap, that's something I want to run to. But then mostly it's really, you know, at the end of the day, it's filmmaker driven. You know, I really believe that, you know, doing, you know, one scene there in Wind River or a movie like Sicario. Those are filmmakers I just really, really respect, like Benicio Del Toro. I mean, it's that simple. It's like, I want to be around those guys just

to watch and just to be there. And that is much more attractive to me and always has been than sort of taking a kind of bigger role with different kind of auspices. It's really just, who am I around? Who can I roll with? What team can I be a part of that day? One thing about you is you could be a good guy or a bad guy and you can be in a thing where I'm not sure what side you're on as I'm watching it, which I think the walking dead was like the first time where as that guy kind of lost his way a little bit and it was so convincing and it was like,

whoa, what's going on? And then they kill you off. Yeah, man. And it was kind of, that was the, in a weird way, kind of the most important moment for that show because they showed that anybody could go at any time. But at the same time,

I felt like it was a huge loss for the show. You must've known you were getting knocked out, you know, when you took the role, but I was still stunned by it. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, from the beginning, you know, you, you, you get that source material. And I remember it was sort of one trip to the toilet. I opened up that comic book and by the end, you know, by the, by the time I was flushing the toilet, that character was gone, you know what I mean? I was like, Oh wow, this is what I signed up for. But no, I mean, I knew his time on the show was not long. And at that time, honestly, that writing again was so is what I signed up for. But no, I mean, I knew his time on the show was not long.

And at that time, honestly, that writing, again, was so good. And it was Frank Darabont, you know, Shawshank Redemption. I'm like, shit, man, I'll jump into that. You know, I would have, you know, knocked down walls to get on to that show. But honestly, when we first talked about it, it was a conversation. I originally auditioned for Rick, you know, the main character. And, you know, Frank was really, you know, having some trouble on where to place me because he kind of saw me. And I told him, you know, I can really make this easy on you, man.

I'm all about that guy Shane. You know, I really resonate with him. And I think for the exact reason you said, I think if you get to play a character where there's like buoys along the water of things that you know you have to hit. And those things sort of seem like impossible to get to. And it's kind of the story and the acting and the relationships that will get you there. I mean, here's a guy who, you know, we meet and he's talking with his best friend. They're having a couple of burgers, you know, sharing a pile of ketchup with French fries. He's giving him advice on his relationship with his wife. And I know in the course of some small period of time on television, you know, that guy's got to have to sleep with his wife. And I know in the course of some small period of time

on television, you know, that guy's got to have to sleep with his wife, fall in love with his wife, go mad, try to kill him. You know, it was such a far kind of journey to take and also be kind of the first person on that show to realize that there's this new world that they're living in. You know, that show, I'm so enormously grateful to that show for a whole host of reasons. I think more, you know, more than anything else, just the relationships I made and the friendships I made with those people. But, you know, getting killed off that show, I'm also, you know, enormously grateful for and kind of being able to have it bookended and had a real beginning, middle and end. It's a huge privilege, which at the time, man, you know, that was my first big gig.

That's the thing that kind of took off. And at the height, you know, of its kind of appeal and it sort of entering the zeitgeist, they were like, man, you got to go. And, yeah, that was crushing. And I thought, you know, that was going to sort to be my first and my last. But it's really important, I think, in any business where you're following your dreams. You can't think in those terms. And just when one thing seems like a wall, you realize it's actually a door and you just got to keep slamming forward. I would say it was the best thing that happened to you that you got killed

off. 100%. Then you got to do a whole bunch of other stuff. I mean, that show's still on. You could be like season 10 if you had been the other guy. Still going, living in Atlanta. We're filming in Atlanta, right?

Yeah, man. And look, you know, bless those people. I love those people, but yeah, man,

I'd much rather be able to go visit and, and, and have sort of the relationships that I've had and, and, and, you know, the experiences that I've had. And there's no question that was probably the event,

like the best sort of career thing that ever happened. Did you know that that show was going to blow up like that? Because it was pretty unusual how much of a monster it became. Nobody believed it. I mean, look, you can sort of figure that out by the fact that first season got a pickup of six episodes. That is not like a, that's not a huge, you know, vote of confidence. And you got to remember at that point, you know, AMC was the network of Mad Men and Breaking Bad.

I mean, it was like premier cable and you had this guy, Frank Darabont, who's such a genius, but it was a zombie show. And we like i mean we would go to those amc parties and those people would look at us like we were like they're disgusting like weird cousin you know what i mean like these fucking guys think they're making a zombie show on our pristine that you know it was yeah so did not fit in with that culture um and and and you know honestly man i i don't know about you i i love being part of something that that that that is enormously humble and the beginning that show was so humble in the beginning. There weren't trailers. There weren't craft services. It was just

these seven people. We were all in Atlanta together. We were stuck in the woods getting eaten by the ticks and the chiggers. But we all really believed in the writing. We believed in it together. And so I knew that we were on to something special while we were making it, but no one in the, like no one saw what was coming the way it was. And, and for that many people to watch and, and, and sort of the, how it took off. And I think it really just, you know, Frank was on to something that it touches on something that I really think now going through the pandemic, man, this was inside all of us. Like, what do we do, you know, with the veneer of,

and the comfort of everyday life when that's stripped away? Like, I think we all ask ourselves those questions. And that show just kind of took it a step forward and, and try to approach it in a, in a very realistic way. And, and, and I think when you look at the show now and how it's become, you know, this massive thing, you've got like walking, you know, all these offshoot shows and talk shows about it. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, uh, I'm enormously happy for, you know,

the people that are involved and it's, it's, it's, it's great, but it's so far from what that kernel, the, it started in just this enormously, you know, humble and with no expectations whatsoever, just a beautiful script and some committed folks to make it. I'm like the best crew on earth down in Georgiaorgia yeah you're right the pandemic does give that show a different kind of wrinkle i hadn't thought of that because i watched it obviously when it was happening yeah back in the day yeah i think so man i think so and i think there's this thing in

all of us i mean i think within you know maybe not so much in 2010 when the show first came out but you know this not just with like prepping but you know, this, not just with like prepping, but you know, there's, you know, I feel like there's so many people now who, you know, are training more with weapons, they're hunting, they're, they're, they're putting together, you know, this is this like sustainable life at their home. And like, we have all been forced to think about those things. And, you know, what would this do if this was just a few steps worse than what it is now? We all started coming after each other and, you. And really tragically and sadly, these are things that I think that a lot of people

who never in their wildest imagination would ever have to sort of think about. I mean, I think it's crossed all our minds now. So you worked with some famous people. First of all, I think Snitch is good. Thanks, man. I just feel like there was a lot of action movies from, I don't know,

Oh, wait to 2013 and snitch gets a little lost, but I think it's a total rewatchable, but you're with the rock and that you got, you work with Leo and you work with Affleck, you know, really in like a three year span who I think I probably three of our most seven famous actors,

but what'd you notice about them just as those three in a row? You know, if you, you know, I'll say with, uh, you know, what I found with the real, you know, like the real heavyweight champs, you know, like the real greats, you know, I throw Emily Blunt in there. I throw Brad Pitt in there, you know, only Leo, you know, Dwayne, you know, the thing that the quality that all of them have without a doubt is they make you, they, they completely are able to, while you're working with them, sort of allow you to divorce yourself from this idea of that. They are, they are up on any sort of pedestal. I mean, Emily Blunt,

I remember when I showed up for Sicario, she made me feel like she was waiting for me to get there the whole time. I mean like, holy shit, I loved you in Wolf of Wall Street. And I really believe it about the great filmmakers too. Scorsese does it. Bill New does it. Taylor Sheridan does it. I think what all these guys do is that they care so much. There's so much passion, but they also are so confident that really they understand that you have been brought here for a reason. And the only thing that is in all of our collective self-interest in making something special is to let you really fly. Not just fly within the parameters that I'm putting up or trap you. I just think that, you know, mediocrity is the stuff of constricting folks.

It doesn't matter what you do for a living. But when someone tells you how to do your job, there's no way you're going to find your passion with that job. You are there for a reason and you need to shine. You need to fly. You need to walk through walls. I think all these folks, everybody who you named and all the greats that I've gotten to work with really have, now they approach it in completely different ways and everybody obviously has their own style, but that's what I found is kind of uniform among the real greats. And it's really, you know, on the shows that I get to lead on,

you know, the show I'm doing now or The Punisher, you know, I really try to kind of emulate that in my own little world. I really want people not to just feel welcome and safe, but hey, dude, you're here for a reason. Fly, man, like go for it. Like, you know, take risks, you know, be. Go for it. Take risks. Be bold. And I think that that really,

and how I'm trying to raise my kids and just in life in general, I think that stuff really applies. I'm not a big believer on people sort of infringing their will on others. I think we all need to kind of explode and get the shit out of us. Well, it's funny. You hit two different demos, right?

Because you have the Walking Dead, Punisher, that whole, those fans, they're all crazy. They're all on their side. But then you also have the film nerds too, right? Because you've been, you made some good choices. You've had some smaller parts

and some really good stuff that I think has had some legs too. So you have all those people. And then as you head into this next stage of your career, you have some big things like this Sopranos prequel. I almost can't wrap my head around it. I can't tell if this is going to be like the biggest deal in the world.

Is this just going to be for people like over 30 who grew up with the show, cared about it? Is this going to be able to pull in a new thing? But like, what made you want to do it? I mean, obviously you love the show, but what were the other draws? I think, I think, you know, for that, you know, coming out of, of, of sort of school and playing sports, you know, when I was first kind of deciding to be an actor and, and studying it and,

and sort of, sort of willingly diving into this world that I knew I would, I would be taking a ton of rejection and, and I knew it was going to be a real hard climb. You know, that was in the, the kind of the, the, the apex of Sopranos, you know, it was just, it was, it was everything. And I just remember, you know, somebody telling me, you know, if you really want to try to make a life out of this, the, the more specific and narrow, you can kind of focus your goals. So instead of just saying, Hey, I want to be an actor.

Hey, I want to be in movies. Hey, I want to be in TV shows. It's much more reachable when you say, I want to be on that show. I want to act with this person. I'd like it. And it's, you know, it's the same in anything, you know, when you know exactly what you're headed for, it's a lot easier to hit it. And I remember my goal, just my overall goal of anything else was I wanted to be an extra on The Sopranos. I wanted to get on that set. I wanted to be able to walk in front of the camera in that world because I so believed in that world. And I never got that. I never got an opportunity to audition for it or anything.

And I would show up on the set of Sopranos, you know, back when they were shooting it, just to try to get close, try to see something. I was such an enormous fan. And so when this thing came around, it was just kind of, you know, in that way, it was just a no brainer. What that project ultimately became for me is, you know, Mikey Gandolfini, you know, James's son, you know, Jim Gandolfini, you know, is, is, is one of my favorite actors of all time. And now sort of being involved in the New York film scene, you know, being, being, being

very close with both the stunt world in New York and also with the Teamsters in New York. Jim Gandolfini is, he's beloved. And, and some of the people that I've become enormously close with, especially in the Teamsters loved him. Now I love love and they're a big part of my life. And I've really tried to emulate the way that I carry myself on set in the ways that I had heard from him. Yeah. Michael Gandolfini. And, you know, here's this young man who was really, you know, like growing up with your dad is Jim Gandolfini in New York with the Sopranos. It's just, you know, such an unbelievable thing. And, you know, when he lost his father, he was really on this, you know, beautiful kind of courageous mission to try to get to know his dad better. He was kind of traveling the country, getting to know people that worked with him, that loved him, that he loved. And he was just

sort of trying to dig into figuring out exactly who his dad was. And then this opportunity came about. And, you know, he's an unbelievably beautiful young man. He's humble. He's curious. He's strong. But this was really hard for him, as you can imagine, in a ton of ways. He's playing the role, you know, that his father played. He's keeping that role in the Gandolfini family. So when I met him and I kind of understood what this mission was for him, and then he looked at me as this kind of father figure to play his dad, I was like, dude, I'm all fucking in on this. I'm going to stand in front of you, behind you, by your side. And that's really what the project was for me, just watching him go through it and kind of being there for him.

And I'm enormously proud of him and I love that kid. And now you're walking into another show that has the most devoted, crazy fan base for... Even though Walking Dead and Sopranos are two totally different shows, but I think the expectations that come with

David Chase and the franchise itself, I think there's some people that are excited about it, but are both going to be really mad if this gets fucked up. Man, that's nothing I'm not used to, man. I mean, the audience is like, you know, and then the Punisher. You know, the thing is, those are not shoes that

anyone could fill. You can't fill the shoes of the Sopranos, the TV series. Look, I think it was very smart that David Chase set this as a prequel. It's completely different. Yes, it's the same world, but it is in no way trying to kind of like compete with it, be an addendum to it. It's a totally different thing.

You know, to speak to the man's genius, I will say, when you read the script of the prequel and when you watch the movie, you will see that when he was writing The Sopranos and when he was making that show, that he had this Shakespearean understanding of each of these characters and their histories were absolutely formulated and thought out. You will see things in this that you can see. He knew exactly who these people were back then,

which is kind of staggering. But as far as the different audiences, I just say, with like the Punisher audience and the Walking Dead audience, Sopranos, and then you talk about the more esoteric or the more avant-garde things I've been a part of. I think that really speaks to in this age where everybody is so ripped apart and we're only hearing arguments from the polar opposites and everybody has to belong to a tribe and be on a different team. I really think that that that we're a lot more alike than anybody wants to give people credit for. And I just think those people just don't have the microphone right now. And I think that the walking, you know, the work that you do on The Walking Dead and the work that you do,

you know, one of these smaller kind of independent film festival films, it's it's it's, it's, it's the same stuff. And it's, and they actually appeal to the same people. And I think everybody is a lot smarter than people. People who think differently than you are just as intelligent as you. They're just as smart as you. They care just as much and they want their entertainment the same way. People I think are hungry for nuance. You know, they're hungry for the richness of character and they're hungry to be surprised. They're hungry to, tragedy and to be let down. And I think that this idea that there's sort of like these two different audiences, I think that that's, I certainly would never approach at least my work any differently, no matter what project. It's all in no matter what it is. Why do you think he chose to do it the way he did it instead of trying to do

it as a show that could last for like 30 episodes? What do you think his motivation was? I think his motivation was, you know, I think you'll understand it a lot more after you see the movie, but I think that, you know, there is,

I don't, I definitely don't want to give anything away, but I think that. Yeah. Don't, don think that don't give anything away he'll come to my house and put one behind my ear so it makes more sense as a movie basically yeah I think that's right man and I think it really kind of focuses on

something that will that is very pertinent right now and in a weird way I think once you see the movie you'll see that the movie even though set you know many years ago and many, many years before the series, it's setting something in motion that has real pertinence in 2021. So you did that. That's going to be a big deal. Then you do an indie movie called Small Engine Repair. I was impressed with, as somebody who comes from Boston, I was impressed with your accent. I thought you did a really good job. Yeah.

Thank you, man. That accent gets mangled by a lot of good actors. I thought you did a good job. I appreciate that, man. You know, the writer and director of that movie, John Palano, is from New Hampshire. And it's very specific, I guess, to that little nook of New Hampshire,

which is always a safe thing to say because you can't say, hey, it's a Boston accent because then you got a whole bunch of people who are saying you're fucking it up. Well, it's like the Rhode Island's the worst. That's like the Boston accent on steroids. And New Hampshire is almost like

it's a twinge of the Boston accent. I could never tell it. Some people could. I could never really tell it apart from the Boston, but there's some people who are passionate about. Oh, no, Maine has its own. New Hampshire's got like they do the whole thing with it. Yeah, Maine is crazy, man. I mean, but I will say just with the accents on that, you know, there's a guy named Tim Monick who just, you know, he's who DiCaprio uses and Matt Damon uses. And, you know, he's sort of like the legend of all times and sort of dialect coaches. And, you know, I reached out to him.

I worked with him on Wolf of Wall Street. And, you know, he came on to this movie and, you know, it was such a huge thing. You know, he worked with all of us on it and then basically did it for free because he knew, I mean, we had no money and we did it. He just loved the script and kind of loved the spirit that it started at as a piece of theater.

And like that guy just deserves all the pride. He's like a true legend. And I think that kind of, I mean, not to be a cheese dick about it, but I mean, I think that that's kind of like the great thing about movies in general. And kind of like what we do is, you know, you see like, you know, our dumb faces on the screen, but it's like, there's such a, it's like the artistry and the craft and the grit and determination of so many make these things.

And it's just, you're such a small part of it. But like, you know, if those accents are good, like that's not us, you know what I mean? That's Tim Monick just drilling us and being like,

look, motherfucker, if I'm putting my name on it, like you better come correct. And, and, and, uh,

so I'm, I'm, I'm, he, he deserves, he deserves all credit for that. But you know, that movie did start out as a play.

Yeah. And as humble a beginning as possible. You know, it was the 10 o'clock show in this tiny 40-seat theater in, like, this terrible area in L.A. And you were in the play, right? I was, man. I was, you know, I had gotten into some trouble in 2009, and I couldn't leave the city of Los Angeles.

It was right after season one of The Walking Dead. And I had to be in depositions. And a friend of mine called me up and said, Hey, man, I need you to come do this play reading with me. And I was like, Look, dude, I'm like, trying to get my life together. You know, the last thing I'm doing is going to play reading. And I ended up just, you know, it was a long day, I ended up just just going, that's not something I was doing very often. And I heard that play out loud. And I just said, this guy, this guy's on to something. He's the best American playwright, in my opinion, since David Mamet. I think he's just unbelievable. And since then, you know, he wrote Stronger with Jake Gyllenhaal. He's writing the

new Todd Phillips movie, you know, based on Hulk Hogan, you know, he's one of the co-writers of Joker. I mean, the guy's like this phenomenal talent now since that play. But we put this little play on again in this little 40 seat theater. And, you know, a lot of my buddies in L.A. are cops and, you know, pro fighters. And, you know, we were bringing these folks to the theater that just, you know, it was a lot of them. They had never been to a play before. And you had them with this super progressive kind of liberal theater audience all in the same room. And it just, people went crazy.

Like they just loved this show. And the show kept building and building and building and eventually went to New York. And I think what we had was something that, you know, really undeniable. And, you know, we always had this idea of kind of turning it into a movie when we could. And, you know, we got this this idea of kind of turning it into a movie when we could. And, you know, we got this little window of time and we did it. And yeah, I'm really proud

of it. Yeah, I could tell. I mean, how many people are even in the movie? It does feel like a play. There's like, what, eight actors? Yeah, I mean, it's very small, but you know, but also it's, you know, it's really cool. I mean, this is our little thing. I don't know how much, how cool anybody else will think it, but every one of our kids makes a little appearance in the play. My dogs are in, I mean, in the movie, my dogs are in it. Everybody who's ever played those roles on stage, our background and like kind of make their way to small parts. And, you know, it was a real kind of labor of love, you know, of this kind of community of now, you know, we, we made, we did that play over 10 years ago, but there was this whole circle of friends that kind of community of now, you know, we, we made, we did that play over 10 years ago, but there was this whole circle of friends that kind of came out of it that

all very much stick together. And we all kind of did this, you know, collectively, which, which again, you know, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm just really proud of. So you had that, you have the Sopranos thing coming. We own this city. That's what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Yeah. Mini series that's coming. And then you're doing American Gigolo, which was always one of the great

ideas for a movie that absolutely should have been a TV show at some point. And it took like 40 plus years. But now that's happening. Yeah, we did the pilot of that last year and then we'll go into production of it right when I'm done with this HBO show. Is that set in LA? That is set in LA.

It has to be. Yeah, it's very much an LA show, but I think it's going to be, you know, it's from the showrunner of Ray Donovan. It's, yeah, it's, I think if people are expecting, let's just put it this way, I think it's going to be a lot,

you know, as you can see, because I'm playing the role, you know, it's a much kind of darker and maybe uglier version, but I think it's going to surprise a lot of people. I'm excited. I'm scared of it. So it's a grittier American Gigolo.

I think so. Ray Donovan crossed with American Gigolo. You know what I mean? Yeah. Jesus. Can I ask why you've never made, why haven't you starred in a sports movie? What's going on there? So we have this movie, King Richard, that's coming out.

It just played at Telluride, which is about... Oh, I heard that. It's unbelievable. It's great, man. I'm so proud of it. This director, Ronaldo Marcus Green, he came with me to do this HBO series I'm doing now. Man, I think this movie is just going to... It's so beautifully done. Every aspect of it was

right we got i really feel like we got the tennis right um i i'm telling you right now will smith's gonna will smith's is gonna just blow everybody away in this in this role but but but really everybody i think the work is so beautiful across the board and um that's very much a sports movie but look you know playing baseball in college, I played football as a boxer, you know, it's just, it's, it's really gotta be right. I mean, I've had these kinds of opportunities to do it, but, but, you know, to me, it's, it's, it's just like, you know, when I'm doing the, the, the Punisher, you know, they've got to get the guns right.

Like they got to get the hitting right. You know, when we're doing King Rich, you got to get the tennis right. You know, that you, you, you really need, if you go into something like that, you've got to make sure you're putting yourself in a situation where there's going to be enough time, energy, and money spent on really getting those aspects of it right. Because I had no interest in doing a baseball movie that if you're not going to get the baseball right. And, and, and I know I can kind of cover my end on that, but we got to do that across the board. So, you know, I would love to do it.

It's just got to be the right one. What was your baseball position? Gotcha. There hasn't been a really good baseball movie in a while. In a long time. We need one, man. The boxing happens over and over again. There's only been a couple MMA movies.

I thought the one with Tom Hardy was really good. Warrior? Yeah, Warrior was excellent. And Gavin also made Miracle. He really gets the sport. He was an athlete. He played football at Penn. He's a super close friend of mine.

Don't you feel like we're kind of graduating past sports movies? Because I noticed this with The Way Back, which I really liked. That Affleck movie. Yeah. Where it was like basketball, but it was like it was a movie about that character and basketball's in it, but not in the way like 40 years ago

the team wins in the last scene and he's fine. It was more like this character study and I almost feel like that's where this shit's going now. I agree, man. And that's Gavin, by the way, too. He made that movie as well. I think just people are really getting tired of predictability. I think kind of like the biopic movie, like that,

it's just like not working anymore. I think a predictive build, there's just so much content to choose from and people's Ford versus Ferrari flipped it a little bit with how that ended. I really liked that movie, by the way. I thought that was excellent. You're in that team. Like you get, you get these filmmakers, like James Pagel, man. Like, you get these filmmakers. Like, he's just like, that guy cannot do it wrong.

He's a genius. And he did it analog. You know, there's no green screen in that movie. He did it kind of for real. But, you know, there was some talk baseball-wise about doing a, there was a Bob Ross. I mean, there's been some talk. There was like a Yogi Berra thing floating around that I was considering.

It's just, you know, it's tough. I think with the boxing, you know, my only beef with the boxing thing, and I do get offers all the time for boxing. There's too many of them. And by the way, man, a sport that's 90%, you know, black and Hispanic, you know, it's like we can't do another movie about a white fighter. It's like there are no white fighters. I mean, there's so few of us. It's like MMA maybe, but it's like, we can't do another movie about a white fighter. It's like, there are no white fighters. I mean, there's so few of us.

It's like MMA maybe, but it's just like enough's enough with that. You know, if I was your manager. Yeah. Talk to me, man. I would,

I would try to go find, I feel like it could be an MMA. You used to be, you're like a five time champ. Okay. You, now you're older. You should probably hang it up.

Yep. It's a young man's game now. That's right. But there's a lot of money at stake. Somebody's calling you out. I mean, like all the basic premises of it. And it's like, you kind of probably shouldn't take this fight, but you have to.

And there's some reasons for it. And we just dive deep into like you basically getting roped into this fight. You probably shouldn't take. Cause I always noticed that with MMA, it's always three fights too many for all these guys. And yet, for some reason, they can't pull away from it.

And of course, we know the reason. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I mean? We can all put ourselves... I mean, nobody's ready to hang up the gloves in anything that we do. It's just that one...

You know, the consequences and the circumstances of it are much more in your face and have much more kind of palatable and immediate, you know, impact on you. But I, I feel like everybody goes through that and nobody really wants it. And that's the kind of thing for me in doing this, you know, what I love and I'm excited about with this is, you know, I really want to be doing this the rest of my life. And I, I don't care in what capacity, I don't care. And, and I, I, I don't care in what capacity. I don't care if I'm on stage in DC. I don't care if I'm doing dinner theater. I really, and when I say that, like, I'm not bullshitting. Like I, I really just, I love doing

this. And if I get, if I can keep doing this, you know, all the way through, uh, that's, that's really the dream. And, and, um, I'm, I feel like I got it. That's all, that's all the dream and I feel like I got it that's all noble and great but you have a sports movie window here how old are you now I'm 43 yeah you got like five years left and then you're gonna be like Redford in the natural where they're gonna have to be

shooting you with shadows and like shoot shots to hide how old you are you have your windows down Let's go I think the baseball movie is the answer I love that sport We need a good baseball movie

It's like what is the story What if American Gigolo What if he was a semi-pro baseball player You're going to see when that show comes out I did squeeze I fought like hell, man. I did. I got this whole basketball component in there.

Cause I'll, I'll be honest with you, man. I like to pride myself. I I'm a pretty well-rounded. I play a lot of sports. My little brother played basketball, Princeton. I played college. We have a lot of different at like from different sports, but, uh, I did get a bunch of really good basketball scenes into that show where we're actually playing, actually see the game going.

And so I'm hoping that that kind of basketball metaphor will kind of cut all the way through the series. You know, that's what Sandler did with Grown Ups. He just basically it was an excuse for him to just kick everybody else's ass in a playground game. All his friends couldn't play. Yeah. There's some frustrated baseball athlete actors because John Hamm, who I know, he's a good baseball player. And it was always

like we did Million Dollar Arm and he didn't really get to play that much baseball in it. But I think there's these guys who is like if it was ever the right baseball movie, I think there would be a bunch of people who could pop on. But the problem with that too, Bill, like you can't you cannot hide bad baseball in a movie.

You see somebody who can't throw a ball. How about Field of Dreams? The dad at the end of Field of Dreams. It can't happen. Costner is like great. And Costner ate that shit up. He was doing baseball movie after baseball. And I was like, man, that's what I want to do.

I could do that. And I was supposed to be in 42. I was the director of 42. And I basically told him, I was like, man, that's what I want to do. I could do that. And, you know, I was supposed to be in 42. I was the director of 42. And I basically told him, I was like, look, man. And, you know, I was all, it was probably a stupid, cocky thing to say. But I was like, I'm definitely the best baseball player who's auditioning for this movie. Like, if you don't give me this part, you're basically saying I'm the shittiest actor in Hollywood. Because there's no way someone can play baseball better than me.

And sure enough, I got the part. We were doing our part. But then I ended up, I had to leave that movie because I can't remember whether it was fury, but I just got something else came through that I had already seen. And, uh, but like, you know, I just think there's, it's so hard to, to hide a bad arm. And it, what is shocking is how many people cannot throw like that always shocks me that like, how did you get through life? Not learning how to throw a throw. Like that always shocks me. That like, how did you get through life not learning how to throw a ball? Like I just, it's like unbelievable. And there's a lot of actors who can,

and you can teach somebody how to throw a punch, but if you didn't grow up throwing a ball, that you just, it looks terrible and it will never work. Yeah, I remember our guy, Tom Cruise, who is really good as an athlete in a lot of different things. Great runner. Great runner. Mastered billiards, did

all these things, but then he had to throw a baseball in War of the Worlds, and it was like, wow, we should have CGI'd this. What's going on? Some people, they just never ended up doing it. What's your favorite baseball movie? I mean, it's probably

The Natural still. I love Bad News Bears and Breaking Training. I love I mean, it's probably the natural still. Yeah. But I have like, I love Bad News Bears and Breaking Training. Yeah. I love Hardball. I love all baseball movies. I really do. What about you?

Well, I'll be honest with you. I mean, like obviously the natural as well, but I kind of feel like as baseball goes, like quality of baseball in a movie, I really got to put Major League up there at the top. Like I really think that like, you know, there was of baseball in a movie, I really got to put Major League up there at the top. Like, I really think that like the, you know, there was no one in that movie, even people had like, I don't, I forget the actor's name,

but like the pitcher was putting like snot and stuff on the ball. Like the, like the old- Eddie Harris. Yeah, dude. Like he, like the way that he, like even though his throw, like I still believe that that guy was a pitcher. Like he had a weird kind of... Corbin Vernson, the way he fielded the balls.

I just bought that. Everybody's baseball was on point. And Sheen was like... His pitching was completely on point. He looked like a reliever now who would come in and throw 98. You know what's a really good baseball movie that unfortunately doesn't have enough baseball in it? It was For Love of the Game. now who would come in and throw 98. You know what's a really good baseball movie that

unfortunately doesn't have enough baseball in it? It was For Love of the Game. It gets sunk by all this rom-com stuff, but the actual baseball in it's really good. I think Costner's believable, too. Costner's great, man. I mean, I think Costner's great. I mean, he's great in everything that he does, but I just, you know, it's a sad

state of affairs. It's also, I think, you've got the majority of actors now that are doing, you know, movies and TV are from Australia and from England. And it's just, it's not a, it's not something that they do. Get them out of here. Yeah. Listen, this is one of my all time passions. Is anyone, any column I've ever written about sports movie, any podcast we've ever done about a movie, the authenticity thing, it drives me nuts. Like the fact that Jimmy Chitwood's jump shot looked like an awesome jump shot and was totally believable that this guy was like, you know, the guy, he had to have a great jump shot, but yeah, they'll, they'll cheat with it. What about white men can't jump? Tell me your basketball. What, like,

how do you, how do you rate the basketball and white men can't jump? So Woody's fantastic. You can tell Woody played. I played with him a bunch back in the day. He plays just like that. He's exactly who you would think he is on the court. That's how we became friends. He actually plays the game. And what about Wesley? Really rough. We did a rewatchables pod about it and it was clear the super high dribble

to me it's like it really hurts the movie. I'm a little more down on it than others and I really like that movie but I just can't believe. I think he's actually a good athlete. He's believable in Major League. He's believable in the other ones but it was clear that he hadn't played that much

basketball and then you read up the research on it and he didn't, he didn't play basketball. So he kind of figured it out. Dancing and martial arts and stuff like that. Like, just like what you said, you know, great athlete, but there's certain things with those, you just, you're better off. And look, he's great in that part. And he's a phenomenal. He's great. He's great. Great in that part. And he understands, here's the thing that I'll give him on that as well. Whereas I agree with you a little bit on the basketball quality. His shit talking is the highest level.

I mean, it's perfect. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's some good ones. Like in Above the Rim, the guy Leon comes in, who's the guy who's practicing by himself. Yeah. But then he comes in the real game and he's just money from 17 feet. And it's like, oh, that guy's clearly played.

Like you can see it. And then they used an actual Georgetown player as the lead. So I always appreciate when they do that. But yeah, sometimes they'll cut corners with this stuff. Bad news bears breaking training too, which I still stand by. The dad, William Devane, and he's hitting the grounders for the kids it's like oh this guy played he's like banging him around so you know it comes and goes and i'll say in in in king richard you'll see you know i we actually got really lucky with because we shot we shut down you know i did about i'd never played

tennis before and that was my thing like how am i got you know, I did about, I'd never played tennis before. And that was my thing. Like, how am I got, you know, I played this sort of famous, uh, uh, tennis coach, Rick Macy, and they happened to have this kind of tennis Academy here in my town. And so I was there six hours a day with three different coaches just playing nonstop. Now I love the game. It's something I never played before, but then with the pandemic, we got six months of shutdown where I just kept training every day. And it wasn't even training to play, but training on how to coach and just how to speak to them, but also just how many balls you hold with this hand, how to feed, how to feed lobs, how to make them run, you know, how to get their feet going, what kind of coaching you do.

And they really, you know, one of the producers of that movie was a tennis player. And I think you're going to be really, really pleased with the tennis in that movie. Um, with both how much work the girls did and how much sort of like the way that they were able to manipulate and use stunt doubles in that. Um, it just, it's like the tennis is the tennis is,

is top notch. Well, that's the thing with sports movies now is we have the technology. That's right. That nobody should ever not look believable in a sports movie. Dude, if it goes bad now, like, what are you doing? Yeah, they can basically make anything happen. Well, I'm excited for that.

I'm excited for all this stuff. I think the next couple of years. That's why I wanted to get you now, because I think you're going to like go up a level and then you'll like be too cool for the podcast. So I had to get you. I had to get you, I had to get you at when American gigolo and there's the semi-pro baseball spinoff of American gigolo and you're on two shows at the same time. Congrats on everything though. This is a great,

I really look forward to seeing the Sopranos movie too. Thanks man. I really appreciate you having me brother. I really do. All right. Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. It was produced by Kyle Creighton. I will be back on Thursday with Million Dollar Picks with Peter Schrager and a whole bunch more.

By the way, Million Dollar Picks, it won again. We won money again. Six straight week that we won almost a half a million dollars at least. So we'll be talking about that on Thursday. We'll see if the streak can continue. Don't forget, you can play against me on Million Dollar Picks on Fandle.

Just go to fandle.com slash ringer. And you should also just go to Fandle and play the Bad Quarterback League because people love that as well. I will see you on Thursday. RIP.