The Bill Simmons Podcast - Rodgers for MVP, Pats-Bills, and an Iconic Beatles Documentary With Peter Schrager and Chuck Klosterman

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by NFL Network’s Peter Schrager to discuss the stumbling Rams, the Chiefs finding their stride, and why Aaron Rodgers should be the favorite for MVP (2:15), before making their Million Dollar Picks for NFL Week 13 (22:09). Then Bill talks with Chuck Klosterman about the new documentary series by Peter Jackson, ‘The Beatles: Get Back’ (48:44). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Peter Schrager and Chuck Klosterman Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hope you've been following our Music Box series on HBO. Our fourth film debuts tonight, Thursday night, 8 p.m. HBO. It's called Listening to Kenny G. It's directed by Penny Lane. It was a Critics' Choice in the New York Times today. It is available on HBO Max immediately as well. And you can watch it there if you miss the 8 p.m. showing Listening to Kenny G.

It's a really, really good one by a director that we love a lot. So check it out. Listening to Kenny G, HBO or HBO Max. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good.

And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate. Offensive TDs in the next drive, they have so much stuff, it's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly.

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and present in select states gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by my old friend Miller Lite I've been a big fan of Miller Lite

man since college days when I was allowed to have beer I think nephew Kyle is a fan too Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that are when you want a light beer that tastes like beer,

that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, which will be coming up later when we do Million Dollar Picks with Peter Schrager. We are brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network,

where I did a new episode of The Rewatchables. We finally did JFK, Oliver Stone's flawed classic from 1991. It's the 30th anniversary in a couple of weeks. Me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessy, Brian Koppelman, we broke the whole movie down. We talked JFK conspiracies. It is a crazy podcast about a crazy movie.

Check that out. And then on Monday, we have another rewatch that's coming. So we'll be back on the normal schedule starting Monday next week. Coming up in this podcast, gonna talk Rams and Pat's Bills and Rodgers MVP and million dollar picks with Peter Schrager.

And then a conversation you were probably expecting, especially if you saw the title of this podcast, Chuck Closterman and I, uh, we're dying to talk about this eight hour Beatles documentary Beatles film Beatles special. I don't even know what you call it. It's on Disney plus it's called get back.

It's directed by Peter Jackson and it's one of the most incredible pieces of content that's come out in the last 10 years. And it's really important. We're going to explain why we couldn't wait to talk about it. We deliberately avoided each other on text, on phone. And it's about 90 minutes on the Beatles. And I got to say, it was really fun to talk to Chuck about it. So that's the pod.

Football, the Beatles. What's more high profile than that? First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Peter Schrager is here. We're going to do billion-dollar picks in a second. Let's talk about the Rams. What's going on here? Rams 7-4. Started out 7-1.

Lost to Tennessee by 12. Lost to the Niners by 21. Lost to Green Bay by 8 in a game that honestly they weren't good in. And I never felt like Green Bay was even in trouble in that game, whatever the final score says. Stafford doesn't look healthy to me. He looks banged up, which is worrisome because he's looked that way for four or five weeks. They went all in on all these picks.

I mean, on all these players with their picks. Put together this all-star team. McVay getting criticized now for what happens to him in the second half of seasons and offensive efficiency first half for his second half. It feels like a team under siege. And yet, you look at the rest of the schedule, home Jacksonville this week, huge favorites. At Arizona next week.

Home Seattle. Seattle might be whatever. At Minnesota. At Baltimore. individual home Jacksonville this week, huge favorites at Arizona next week, home Seattle, Seattle might be whatever at Minnesota at Baltimore home, San Francisco. There is a world in which they could just rip off six wins that I wouldn't be shocked. What do you think is wrong with this team? Well, you know, it, their last few games, they have had terrible turnovers. They have had pick sixes and their special teams has been atrocious. That's not going to win any morning talk shows. Skip Bayless isn't going to be talking about special teams and turnovers. And we're not necessarily going to go nuts about that stuff, but you can't win football games that way. And I spoke to some folks there, not Sean this week, but other guys in that

building. And they're like, you would think it would be end of times and everyone freaking out. Like it's not. And they look at Jacksonville as a team that they should be able to be. And then they look at the rest of their schedule and say, look who we've lost to. We've lost to San Francisco, who played a punishing brand of football that knocked us on our ass, lost to a good Tennessee team, lost to a good Cardinals team and now lost to a good Packers team. They don't have those five losses or four losses where there's three of them where you're scratching your head and you're like, well, how'd that happen? I expect them to get right this week. I would also tell you they're not panicking,

but there's also this piece of like, they're really hateable. From the outside looking in, no one wants a dream team. No one's rooting for Odell Beckham to have this great career resurgence. No one's looking for McVay to be like, oh, it's great that the boy wonder was right. Everyone is taking their shots right now and licking their chops, and they need to lean into that. They can't be sensitive to that. They can't be worried about that. But look, Yosh Naiman and John Runyon Jr. and Newman and Lucas Patrick, these are not famous offensive linemen. And they absolutely manhandled Vaughn Miller, Leonard Floyd, and Aaron Donald last week.

That's some humble pie. You need to be able to rebound from that and come into it. So I don't think they're panicking, but I think they know what time it is. And it's like, all right, it has to happen now. A couple of things worry me. Stafford to start, the fact that he's already, seems like he's 39 years old. And that's just, that's eye test. I don't know what kind of injuries he looks like, but he just doesn't look like he did the first week of the season.

On both sides of the lines, they're getting shoved around. They seem like just a fundamentally soft team. And when we talk about Pat's Buffalo a little bit later, this has been my favorite thing about the Pats, really the last six, seven weeks. They're actually a tough team. They're physical.

And you think about Tennessee, what they were able to do to the Rams. They just out-physicaled them, especially the Tennessee defense. San Francisco, bully-balled them. That's a bad quality for heading into the playoffs. So that part's worries me. Then the other thing,

who are the skill position guys that I'm really afraid of at this point? Cupp's amazing. Cupp's a top five wide receiver. Now we've already dropped off to Odell, who's really been a non-factor for three years. They're running backs. I would say they probably have

the worst running back situation in the league. Top three? Top three worst top three worst. And then who is like Stafford security blanket on third and eight when you know, the other team's going to double cup. What do you do if you're up seven in the fourth quarter and need to run the ball and get some first downs?

Can you do it? And then if Stafford is banged up, I think they thought they could control the game with Stafford, but if he's not at the same level he was at in training camp and at the start of the year, they can't do that either. So I think they're, they're a sell to me. I don't think that's an overreaction either. I just don't like the makeup of the team. I like what the Packers have done. Packers have had all kinds of injuries. They've persevered. They've had this crazy Rogers situation really since before the season. Um, and you know, I think

they have to be taken seriously. And I, I continue to think it's going to be bucks Packers in that NFC title game, the Cardinal fans. What about Wes? So what about us? It's like, all right, well, I don't know if your quarterbacks would be healthy. I don't know if I trust your coach yet to win a couple of playoff games in a row, but I trust the infrastructure at Tampa. And I trust what I'm seeing with green Bay, a team that's been successful the last couple of years. I don't trust the rims. Yeah. And the Green Bay thing, I mentioned their offensive linemen. There's also their offensive line coach, Adam Stanovich, who's now getting head coaching buzz as an offensive line coach, because when you lose Bakhtiari and you lose Jenkins and you lose Josh

Myers and, oh yeah, Corey Lindsley signed for the highest contract ever given to a center in the offseason and you get better. Yeah, that's awesome. And Rodgers is locked in and he's doing it with, again, Marquez Valdez-Scantling and Randall Cobb got injured in the second half of last game, but Cobb's been really good this year. Jones is hurt now.

Exactly. So they've got injuries, but they're playing through it and they're finding ways like for the Rams to shut it all down and say, well, Robert Woods got hurt or Cam Akers got hurt. It's just not an acceptable excuse. It's not, you can't make that excuse. But at the same time, those are two really good skill guys that they really needed this year and would have completely changed the ceiling of their team. So I think at some point, I think Baltimore is like this a little bit too, where I don't like their running backs either. If they had JK Dobbins,

would I like their team more? Actually? Yeah, I would. I would like their team more. Yeah. Um, and I think you have to start looking at health as we head into December,

which is, I think such an advantage for the pats, the pats knock on wood. I'm going to knock on glass, knock on wood, Kyle. Um, the pats have been really healthy so far. And they, you know, other than Gilmore, they have been able, and then they lose Trent Brown for a few weeks, start the year. They've had some stuff, but right now they're really unusually healthy. The Packers are getting

healthy. The Bucs are going to start getting their guys back. Although it seems like every time you feel like good about the Bucs, all of a sudden they lose one more guy or somebody else is iffy. So maybe that's part of it. You and Sal were talking about it Monday, but it's one more week, but the season seems so long. And how I see it is the injuries. And it's like, who's going to be standing at the end?

Because last year, the Buccaneers lost Vida Veya for a couple games. They lost the defensive backfield. Antoine Winfield didn't play in the championship game, but then played in the Super Bowl. The reason the Bucs were as good as they were at the end, because they were all healthy. Like, Bakhtiari did not play in that NFC championship game. So it's a little bit of luck, but it's also a little bit of peaking at the right time. And, you know, you go right down the list, like the Niners, everyone's high on the Niners.

They lost Debo Samuel and Fred Warner last week. Those are their two best players. Like, that stuff matters. Oh, we'll be talking about it again. We're underdog parlay of the week a little bit later. Here we go. Yeah, it's like, hey, the Niners just literally lost their two best guys.

I think we might have to zag against them this week. I have another zag for you. What do you got? On FanDuel right now, regular season MVP odds. Tom Brady is 3-1. Josh Allen, plus 420. The actual MVP through 11 games, Aaron Rodgers, plus 650. So there's some weird off-the-field stuff drifting into this

where it's like you were a dick in the offseason. I don't even think it's the offseason. I think this whole... And then the COVID and he misses a week. And now it's like so... Kyle, I hope the camera's on. I really do. I hope the camera's on. I really do. I hope the camera's been on the last 20 seconds.

Are we saying Aaron Rodgers isn't allowed to win the MVP this year? Because if we're doing these odds correctly, he is the odds-on favorite, and it's probably not close. They're 9-3. They've had injuries every week, including he missed a week.

We saw what happened when the backup went in. It was a catastrophe. Seven catastrophe. And it's like, how is anyone more valuable to their team than Aaron Rodgers has been to the Packers this year? But now you bring in all the baggage and that's why he's plus 650. And that's why Tom Brady's three to one. If this was an objective award that was given out by a looking at a piece of paper and statisticians pump out some robotic answer, sure. If this was done by a process where FanDuel selects the MVP based on wins over whatever it is, fine. There's a reason T.O. waited five years to get into the Hall of Fame. There's a reason Roger Clemens is not in the Hall of Fame. There's a lot of reasons for the... Human beings vote on these things,

and the sports writer community might not be inclined to say, let's wrap our rounds around Aaron Rodgers after what went down week 10 or whatever that was. With that whole thing, with the fact... I'm curious to see if sports writers can block it all out and say, is he the best teammate? Is he the best leader?

Is he the best player in the NFL? Because I think the answers might be yes, but they might be looking for a different answer and a different player to wrap their arms around in the NFL, have this prestigious award go to someone else this season. Yeah, it would be like a begrudging vote, right? I think so. You were so good this year and your team was so good. I'm going to have to vote for you. And I don't feel good about it at all because I really couldn't come up with a better candidate.

There literally has been no one. I mean, Brady maybe, but there's been no one as good as Rodgers when he's on the field. There hasn't been. Objectively, he's the winner of the MVP right now. Also, he's the most important player to his team of anyone on their team. It was a similar situation in 1975 in the NBA. Give it to me.

I can give you a history lesson. Pretty sure I'm the first person who's going to bring this up on a podcast this week because nobody would care other than me. But Rick Barry, who was the best player in the league

in 1975. Not well-liked, right? By the media? Not well-liked. 30 points a game that year. Goes into the playoffs. Demolishes everybody. And in the MVP, he finished fourth.

And if you go back and you really look, it's like, all right, maybe McAdoo. I could see the case. The win totals weren't that different. McAdoo was like 35 game that year. But like, Barry can't be lower than second. Finished fourth.

I wrote about this in my book. It was like that was the level of animosity and whatever that he provoked from people. People were like, yeah, fuck that. I'm not voting for that guy. And I do wonder if that's going to be Rodgers this year. At the same time,

let's say the Bucs barely beat the Falcons this week. Let's say the Pats beat the Bills. How is Rodgers not the MVP? I know. But I think it's going to be Brady because especially the way their schedule stacks up, it's a better narrative.

People will feel he's a better teammate. He went in there, he changed the culture versus Aaron Rodgers who kind of submarine the culture in a lot of different ways. But they're 9-3. No, and the players will tell you a different tale. They'll say that Rodgers is still the man. He's the leader. They love him. Whatever you guys in the media or whatever the front office has to deal with, that's on them. Every Sunday, this guy plays hurt. He wins. And they have fun out there. Objectively, he's the guy. The question is, I personally,

I don't think I can, and I don't have a vote, but I couldn't give my vote to Kyler, even if he goes out and has a great finish, like three games out of the season, he didn't play. It's hard. Availability matters. They didn't miss him as much as we expected. They went two and one without him.

Yeah, Rodgers has a bye week this week. And in a weird way, his MVP case could be enhanced by a couple things that happen. Like if the Pats beat Josh Allen, if Mahomes looks shaky again. Let me give you two names. I think I'm going to bet on...

TLDR. I think I'm going to bet on Rodgers plus 650. It's not a bad launch. I mean, it's just because of the other guys not wanting it. I would throw two names out there that might pick up steam with wins this weekend. I think Joe Burrow, if they win a third straight game and this team starts rolling and they be charged.

Lost to the Jets, not voted for. That's a good point. That's a good point. Who's the other one? The other one is if the Colts get going again and Jonathan Taylor keeps it going and has one of those crazy seasons. Nah, they're not making the playoffs.

Crossing him off too. All right, so Rodgers it is. No, let's go keep going through, Rodgers it is. No. Let's go keep going through the far-fetched ones. Lamar, I can't after throwing four picks in a game last week. And Dak probably out, too, right? Probably. For the way he's played the last four weeks?

Yeah, it's rough. What if the Raiders go on a tear and Derek Carr, you say, okay, those three weeks where they lost, that was a lot going on. They still finished the season 12-5 or 11-6. And Derek Carr. It's Derek Carr, you say, okay, those three weeks where they lost, like that was a lot going on. They still finished the season 12 and five or 11 and six. And Derek Carr, he got mocked by other players. You know, maybe the Taylor thing, they would have to run the slate. I think. Yeah.

Right. They'd have to go 11 and six. And I don't think they, I don't think they can, because I think the blueprint was unlocked with them last week. Take it out. Can I throw out a name? Yeah. Let's hear it. What if a team, I don't think they can because I think the blueprint was unlocked with them last week. Can I throw out a name? Yeah, let's hear it. What if a team, I don't know, what are they called? The guys up in five.

What if they don't lose another game this season? The Patriots. Could he win it? Mack? Wow. Sal and I jokingly talked about this last week. A rookie has never won it, and I don't think he's the best player on the team. I don't think he's a top five player.

However, tell the story. I don't see it. And I don't think he's the best player on the team. I don't think he's the top five player. However, I don't see it. 80-1. Mina Kimes, our friend, was asking me, has anyone ever won the executive of the year and the coach of the year in the same year? Because you could make... I mean, Belichick has to be considered the executive of the year when you think about the draft combined with all the free agent signings. They spend... They've been lights out.

I think $168 million in unrestricted free agents. It's the most ever spent by, I think, $50 million. And like, Bourne is their number one wide receiver. Henry's really good. John, who looked good last week. John, who looks good. Jalen Mills, Belichick really likes. And then Judon has been the best reagent of the thing.

He could be defensive player of the year. Like, they really hit home runs. And people would say, well, Janu isn't worth it. Don't worry about how much he's making. Does he make an impact? Yes. Is he a good part of the... Aguilar doesn't.

Aguilar scored a big touchdown on Thursday night against the Falcons. Like, they're all contributing. Aguilar, even though the stats haven't been there, they still respect his speed. Yep. And he does like, he's not a diva. He blocks. He does stuff. He's helped.

He hasn't been a detriment. Mills is the guy who drives my dad crazy, but even Mills has been alright the last couple weeks. Yeah, I think one of the good things about this Pats team and why another reason why it reminds me of that

0-1 team is I don't even know who the MVP is. It's just a bunch of really good guys and they've managed to stay healthy and they're tough.

And they Have you noticed Kendrick Bourne and Belichick? Have you been following any of them at all? Oh my God. Have I noticed? Bourne is like the most

patriotsy patriot. Do you see when he got the game ball after and they were doing the stiff arm stuff? Oh my God. Have I noticed? Bourne is like the most patriotsy patriot. Do you see when he got the game ball after and they were doing the stiff arm stuff? Oh my God. I mean, Belichick's giggling. It's so awkward. He doesn't even know how to handle how much exuberance. And that was Bourne in San Francisco because he never put up huge numbers, but the 49ers guys loved him. They were like, Kendrick

Bourne is like the greatest guy in the locker room. And maybe the word got around. He leads their team in catches and yards and all that stuff. But his personality, his charisma, and his joy is like a welcomed new addition to this Patriots team. Last thing, and then we'll take a break and do picks.

Chiefs. The Chiefs are laying nine and a half to the Broncos this week. And I wrote them off a couple weeks ago. It was a mistake. Denver, they've owned for a long, long time. They have won 11 straight.

Mahomes has never lost to Denver. Their offense by the pure stats, first and first downs, 281. Third down, they're 51.5%, which is insane. Like 40% is awesome on third down. You. Third down, they're 51.5%, which is insane. Like 40% is awesome on third down. You're like 45, you're like high-fiving everybody.

Fourth down, they're seven for 11. And yet they're second in turnovers. So I actually did some research. I was trying to figure out like, all right, how many teams have averaged more than two turnovers a game? So you need to get to basically 33 in the old season. Now it'd be 35 for a season. So they're averaging exactly two a game now.

And it's like, if they stay on that pace, they can do it. So all these teams that average, there's been 10 teams since 2015 that have averaged more than two turnovers a game. How many of them do you think went 500 or better? Very few. Maybe one. Zero.

Really? 2019 Bucs had the most. That was the Jamest year. They had 41 turnovers that year. They were 7-9. That was also the best record of all these teams. 2019 Panthers,

2019 Giants, go all the way through. All the records are 4-12, 5-11, 3-13. The last team that had over two turnovers a game and went above 500 was the 2014

Eagles. I don't remember who was the quarterback on that team. 36 turnovers. They somehow went 10-6. I think the division was good. They didn't make the playoffs. My point is, I actually think it's unrealistic for them to keep that going yeah I think like what if this was

just a small sample size and 22 turnovers yeah but some of them were dumb right some of them hit shoulder pads some of them bounced in the air there was a couple strip sacks but if they don't turn over the ball this is the best offense in the league by far and the statistical whatever would say,

actually, they should regress to the mean. We should have less turnovers over these next couple games. And if that happens, this is a 38 points a game offense. Does any of that make sense to you or not? Absolutely, because those were freakish turnovers. They really were. They're off Kelsey's hands. Doesn't happen.

Tyreek off his hands. Doesn't happen. Hardman cannot catch a ball. And let's say that they're just not terrible with turnovers and it's just one to get one a game for three weeks in a row or it's like eight turnovers over the final five weeks as opposed to 15 turnovers like then okay that's that that makes it more sense that their whole thing to me though the turnovers are almost secondary to like their defense overnight around week, which is like, hey, let's be good. And they're one of the best defense in the league. And it's because of a few things. Obviously, Frank Clark is healthy and you're making the change with Sorenson and Thornhill. But to a man, all those guys in Kansas

City are like, we just had to get healthy. We just had to get Frank back. We just had to get into our groove. And they're dialed in. They held the Cowboys to nine points, man. The Cowboys are a scoring team. I think the Chiefs, this week, Denver, they've feasted on them before. This might be the start of, okay, let's do what the Bucs did last year

and let's just hit out of the bye week and go. And Denver just is a zigzag team. Look good one week, look terrible next week. They've been better without Von Miller. They're 3-1 since Von Miller wore a zigzag team. Look good one week, look terrible next week. They've been better without Von Miller. No remorse. They're three and one since Von Miller wore a jersey for them. And the one was when we bet on them on million-dollar picks,

which is coming up right after this break. Gary Sway is still running around the field. Taking a break. Million-dollar picks next. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way.

Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. I'm not here to talk about the past, much like Mark McGuire. We got killed for really the first time ever for us last week. We lost $874,000. The reason was that Vegas Cowboys game destroyed us. We lost 600K in that. Do you want to talk about how we experienced that game over text, you and me? It ruined my Thanksgiving. Honestly, they get the coin toss. They're home. This is a wrap. The kickoff there, all of a sudden they're at the seven yard line. There's a hundred flags. And it really seemed like if that, it would seem like one of the five most fixed games of the year. I know it wasn't fixed, but when you're watching,

you're like, wow. 28 penalties were called. So I couldn't even say it was one sided. It was just every single time there was a play. And it was like Sean Hockey got to speak on the mic to 35 million people, 28 times. And and I'm like that's not fair no one wants to see him nobody not one person so anyway they lost us money

and then we actually could have rallied except Jalen Hurts decided you know what I'm going to have the worst game of my life

against this crap Giants team that couldn't even get to 13 points couldn't even run out the clock didn't matter and then Jalen Rieger

finished us off there. And then finally, we had Kirk Cousins, who I'm not going to say harsh things about because we need him this week. He's going to be in one of our bets. Of course he is. But just they just couldn't... He lined up under their guard.

He lined up under the guard. He threw a two-point conversion over Jefferson's head. I still like that Vikings team. Anyway, we're back. I went back to the basics. I actually listened to a couple of picks before we do the pod. And then we talk about them. And if like, there's ever like one of the picks where you're just like, ah, then we, then we veer off. But I needed to actually do the work versus like talk it out. We're going back to basics. I, you know, I'm a huge Sopranos fan and there's an episode in the final season called chasing it. And it's the most bizarre episode in the series, I think, because out of nowhere, Tony has a huge gambling addiction. For seven

seasons, all of a sudden, he's betting all his money and he's chasing it and he's chasing it. That's you? And I'll tell you, his wife, Karim, has the new house. They finally sold the house, $600,000. And he's like, let's put it all in the Jets. And she's like, I'm not putting it. He's like, let's put it all in the Jets. And she's like, no. And then the next morning you see the newspaper and it says jets beat chargers 42 to 10 and he slams the paper. I feel like we're chasing it. I feel like I want to be a part of it.

Let's go. Let's go. Let's do it. Well, I have some good news for you. We've lost on teases the last few weeks. Might've tried to force them. I have no regrets. Last week's tease that lost the big one.

The path, the bills, we had the paths easily bills easily. Might have tried to force him. I have no regrets. Last week's tease that lost. The big one. The Pats. We had the Bills. We had the Pats. Pats easily. Bills easily. And then the Cowboys. We find out right before the game. CD's not playing.

I got a little nervous. The tease is back this week. Okay. This is... The tease is a safe space again. There are some very teasable games, including... We're taping this early on Thursday.

It's not even noon yet, Pacific time. We're throwing Dallas in one of the teases. That's why you do an early podcast. Let's get them in there. Dallas is playing the Saints. That line's moved up to six. No, no Camara for the Saints. They don't have either of their offensive tackles. Neither one. They have Taysom Hill, who you know my feelings on him. I've never understood the Taysom Hill thing. The opposite of Minshew for you is Taysom Hill.

Right. You have Lamb coming back. And I thought they really, really missed Lamb in that Raiders game. It's like if Minnesota just doesn't have Justin Jefferson, I would feel less excited about taking Minnesota. Cooper seems like he's going to be back.

We'll find out, I guess, when the thing happens. But I think Dallas got shook last week. The thing I love the most, they don't have McCarthy. He has to sit this one out. Little Ewing theory with McCarthy. I was talking about that with someone today, and I'm like, everyone thinks that's a negative. Yeah, are we sure it's a negative? Like, what happens if? So Dallas coming off a loss, which you got'm like, everyone thinks that's a negative. Are we sure it's a negative?

What happens if? Dallas coming off a loss, which you got to like. If they do this, they got at Washington, at the Giants, home Washington, home Zona, at Philly. Three weeks from now, I could be like, Dallas, whoa, why not them? Why can't they win? I think it starts here.

Three weeks ago, Bill, if you looked at, they got the Raiders at home. I get it. We're throwing them in a tease. Why can't they win? But we would have said that three weeks ago, Bill. If you looked at, oh, they got the Raiders at home. I know. I get it. We're throwing them in a tease. We're actually throwing them in two teases. The first one we are going to tease our friends who've hurt our feelings a couple of times,

but have also won us a lot of money. The Minnesota Vikings. I love you. How could you choose? I mean, they really have ripped our hearts out five different times. You know what? I can't quit them. I can't quit them.

They're seven-point favorites against the Detroit Lions. Minnesota's 10th in DVOA this year. DVOA is like, is that team 8-3? What's their record? They must be winning their division, right? It's like, no, you actually have to watch. Detroit is 31st at DVOA. They're 30th offensively and 28th defensively. You could argue they have the worst coach too. I mean, the stuff that he

did on Thanksgiving and some of the coaching, they called back-to-back timeouts. They're complete mess. Goff is a disaster. They don't have DeAndre Swift anymore. I think the ship has sailed for them to win a game. And I just can't resist. I think this is where Minnesota, this is where it actually becomes more frustrating with them where you don't have them in a week. They could have been this. No, where you don't bet on them in a week because they burned you the last week and then they win. You're like, oh, now I basically lost again because they scared me off, but I'm not scared, Peter Schrager. Okay, come on. I'm not scared. We're going to do a Dallas, Minnesota six-point tease. Tease many to one. Tease Dallas to pick them. And who's beating me? Taysom Hill? Jared Goff? Mark that one down. It's in.

Second one. By the way, how about our DeAndre Swift bet last week? Three carries, zero yards. How many texts did you get? And FanDuel was like the day before they boosted. They make DeAndre Swift the number. They were like, oh, good news. We boosted the DeAndre Swift bet.

We somehow put the Maloik on him. He was done. We basically threw the horse head on his bed. He immediately got hurt. I don't even think I saw him carry a ball. I missed the start of the game. He was already hurt. I walked away from the TV for two minutes and I see Jamal Williams getting five carries

in a row. I'm like, what's going on here? Unbelievable. Next one. Remember Minnesota and Dallas? We're bringing them back for a second tease. Unbelievable. Next one. Remember Minnesota and Dallas? Yeah. Well, we're bringing them back for a second tease. We're going to put them with the New England Patriots. Okay.

Monday night game. So we're waiting on this one. Monday night game. Pats plus two and a half. Going to bring them to eight and a half. Okay. I think it's a one score game either way. I'm just going to make my case quickly. Go for it. I think the's a one-score game either way. I'm just going to make my case quickly.

Go for it. I think the Patriots are better. They have a better coach. I think they're more well-rounded. More importantly, I think they're tougher. I think they can bully ball the Bills a little bit. I'm obviously scared of Allen. No white.

They lose white last week. Buffalo. Best guy in the team, defensively at least. They're getting some offensive line stuff back. Feliciano looks like he's coming back. You're a big John Feliciano guy? Yeah, he's good.

Like him. There's some good stats for him. But I just think the Pats are really good. This will be Belichick has such a great history against Buffalo, which went South last year for one year, but now it's back. Um,

I think they have a better team. I love that. I can get points. If I can get this to eight and a half and it's a one score game. Here's my fear. I'm going to put it out on the table right now. We talk about our fears to our million dollar picks. It's a rookie QB on a Monday night.

On the road. On the road. He could single-handedly submarine it back. Now, I went back. I looked at Wilson. He had his one shit game as a rookie. Roethlisberger had a couple shit games, but Pittsburgh was so good that year.

They could win 13-7. Yeah. But he'd have games where he'd have zero to these two picks, and they'd so good that year. They could win like 13-7. But he'd have games where he'd have zero TDs, two picks, and they'd win 19-7. It was a bonus if he played well. Max, somewhere between those two worlds. It's a bonus

if he plays well at the Pats, but he can't do those Roethlisberger games. If he's zero TDs and two picks, they're probably going to lose. He's actually weirdly important to them. So that would be my fear. But I just like this Pats team. And we've been

riding them every week and somehow not winning money from them because we keep putting them in dumb teases. But in this case, the plus eight and a half. So mark that one down. Minnesota-Dallas Pats. Then a third one that the Pats are also going to be in. FanDuel, you can do nine-point teases. Minus 115 are the odds.

Pats to 11 and a half. 11 is the key number because once you get past that, basically, games are never 12, 13 points. It's always like 11 or 14. Pats to 11 and a half. The Chiefs down to 0.5. Chiefs just have to beat the Broncos in Arrowhead? Just have to beat the Broncos in Arrowhead.

I think they can do that. The Bucs against Atlanta down to minus two. There was a split second where I was afraid of Atlanta in this game. Atlanta has four 20-point of Atlanta in this game. Atlanta has four 20-point-plus losses this year. Atlanta's five and six. They beat Jacksonville, both New York teams,

New Orleans, and Miami. Not impressive. Do you know who's last in DVOA? Atlanta. Is it the Falcons, really? I was stunned. Would you have guessed that a million years ago Atlanta was last? You know who's first in later was last? Yeah. You know who's first in DVOA?

Tampa. So you're telling me I can throw this in a tease. I'm getting the number one team in DVOA after 12 weeks against number 32. And they just have to win by a field goal.

Feel pretty comfortable. Feel good? I mean, how good was Gronk last week? I wish they had Brown. I still... But Gron mean, how good was Gronk last week? I wish they had Brown. I still, but Gronk looked like he was Gronky. He was unbelievable. And Fournette.

Seven for 123, I think. And Fournette. Fournette was great. Great. What about our guy? Our Super Bowl hero? That's our guy. He sent me his jersey.

Seven white. Healthy? They were hoping that he would get fully healthy. We're going to have to see a game-time decision, but Vita Vea is spitting teeth out there. I can't tell you about Devin, though. I don't know. All right.

So what do you think? Chiefs, Bucs, Pats. Pats all the way to 11.5. Bucs have to win by a field goal. Chiefs have to win by one. I'm in on it. Let's go. Okay.

All right. Individual games. How are you feeling about Bengals' chargers? Bengals, minus three in Cincy. Make the case

for one or the other. Okay. The case for Cincinnati is that they've kicked the shit out of teams the last six quarters. They're feeling themselves. The case against Cincinnati

is that everyone is feeling Cincinnati. The last time they were given their roses and their bouquets, they lost to the Jets. We've done this before. Less than three weeks ago, we crowned the Bengals and they beat the crap out of the Raiders second half and then just did what they did to the Steelers. They're at home. This fan base has not had a game like this in years. Could you see Herbert coming in there and just slicing that defense up? Potentially. I would maybe stay away, and yet

they're really fun to root for. They're dominating up at the line of scrimmage, and Burrow doesn't seem to be ever phased by the moment. A couple things. It feels like they can run on them. I think you can run on the Chargers.

I don't think that's a hot take. I think you can bully them and run on them. Chargers' pass rush worries me a little in this game because we've seen teams come after Joey B. Yep. But I also think they can throw on them. The big thing for me is, does Herbert look good for like a month?

He hasn't. Because I've heard, I have him on every fantasy team I have. It's like, I want four straight weeks. You watch and you're like, uh, are you better than Mac Jones?

I know you had the cannon arm, but I, the game last week, I thought he was really like, honestly bad. I thought he was bad against the Pats too. So I don't know what's going on with that. He was really, really good the final drive against the Eagles.

And then you're like, all right, that's his moment. That's his big game. Six-minute drive puts him away. Two first downs on fourth-down conversions. And then really big step back last week against Denver. Sertan picked him off twice, but that doesn't even tell the story. Like he was off all game. So Baltimore, they score six by week.

They lose to the Pats. He's bad in that game. They beat Philly by three. He's good in that game. Bad against Minnesota, lose by seven. The Pittsburgh game on Sunday night, which they came back and won. Pittsburgh had nobody out there.

No coverage at the end. Yeah, and then somebody got hurt. Minko was out. Watt was out. Yeah, that was like a corpse of a Stewards defense. And then Denver completely throttled them. Completely. And it was one of those games, I think, when the thing I've noticed with him, and I really like him,

I think he's going to be a fantastic quarterback. But I have noticed with him, and I really like him, I think he's going to be a fantastic quarterback. But I have noticed, especially when he's pressing a little, the ball's coming out at like 200 miles an hour. That Eckler play at the end. The Eckler play. The Eckler play was a 90-mile-per-hour fastball. Eckler's got great hands. Bounces off his hands.

Sertan takes it to the house. So in Cincinnati, I worry about that. I worry that Cincinnati is too bandwagon-y. It's a 10 a.m. game, or Pacific time. That's good for the West Coast, East Coast thing. As you said, probably the biggest Bengals game in a few years. It's interesting because they manhandled the Steelers. I wrote about them for Fox this week.

I heard from a Bengals staffer, and he's like, you've got to give credit to the offensive line. These guys, it's Jonah Williams is finally healthy. Riley Reif is playing well. And it's like Quentin Spain and Trey Hopkins. Like no one wants to talk offensive line on television or these podcasts,

but like that offensive line is as patchwork as it gets. And remember, they took Jamar Chase and they passed over Sewell and Slater and everyone went nuts. Their offensive line is protecting Burrow this season.

When he does get sacked, it's because he holds on to the ball. Except against the Jets. Right. Except against the Jets. And their defense has been all, you know, their free agent signings were like Mike Hilton and Eli Apple and Trey Hendrickson. All those guys made huge plays last week. And they're veterans.

I like the Bengals in this game, but I'm cautious just because last time everyone crowned the Bengals in this game, but I'm cautious just because last time everyone crowned the Bengals, they gave it away to the Jets. One game that you like, I think more than me, is you like the Dolphins against the Giants. Make the case for that. Giants, if they were going to get a bump, it was going to be last week. Here's Freddie Kitchens there. Here's what we got. It didn't look good. They beat the Eagles, but they did not play well on offense. And Mike Glennon could very well be the quarterback in this game.

And I don't trust Mike Glennon as being better than Daniel Jones in a big spot. The Dolphins, meanwhile, four straight wins. Jalen Phillips playing awesome last week, three sacks. Jalen Waddell has 77 catches. He's fifth in the league in catches. They found a way to use him. And there's a little momentum. Do you have the

Dolphins schedule up there? It's as easy as it gets here on out. They feel like they can make a run and the Giants is a winnable game. Well, we made the case either with you or with Sal. I think it was with you, though. It was about the... No, it was two weeks ago.

It was like the case for could Miami be 7-7 in a couple weeks and we're all going wait what the hell just happened there's a world in which we could tease or we could parlay

Miami and the Chiefs the Chiefs money line the four and a half scares me with the Miami game I don't like it doesn't seem big enough or it's too big it feels like a point and a half too me with the Miami game. I don't like it. Doesn't seem big enough or it's too big? It feels like a point and a half too big for me.

Okay. Because it's people getting super excited about a Dolphins team that beat a bunch of crap teams, honestly. That's true. You know, and not that the Giants are another crap team, but we have the ability. We could put them with the Chiefs and they would be minus 116 if we like the Chiefs. I do like the Chiefs. I do like the Chiefs and I do like that bet.

Okay. All right. So we have that and then underdog. Let me write that down. What do we say on Bengals? Stay away or go for it? No, I think we're going to,

I think we marked that one down. Let's go for it. They're from the watch. And then last but not least, underdog parlay of the week, which we've had bad luck with.

Just point blank. including the Lions. The Lions on Thanksgiving. No, we're going to hit one of these. We have bet on the Lions, I think, 11 of 12 weeks. Maybe that was our problem. Maybe we've had the Lions at least in three of them. We got Washington plus 120 in Vegas. We had the Steelers plus 148 against the Ravens.

We had the Seahawks plus 144 against the Niners. And the one that jumped out to me was the one that jumped out to you as had the Seahawks plus 144 against the Niners. And the one that jumped out to me was the one that jumped out to you as well. Seahawks against the Niners. And then Washington basically, all right, plus 120, not huge odds. No, but... But let's go.

And it's around like plus 440. Talk to FanDuel. They're going to make it the underdog part of the week. Give us a little boost. I don't know what the final number will be on FanDuel, but for us, we're going to make it the underdog part of the week Give us a little boost I don't know what the final number will be on FanDuel But for us we're going to make it plus 550 We're going to boost it for ourselves So Washington to beat Vegas Why do we think Washington is going to beat Vegas?

They're good They're good They absolutely slaughtered the Seahawks last week They're not going to put themselves in harm's way They control the ball I think they had 41 minutes of possession They can take the air out of the ball. I think they had 41 minutes of possession. They could take the air out of the ball and hang with Vegas. Absolutely.

And it's more like do we trust Vegas two weeks in a row? Is that a complete fluke? It is frustrating as hell to bet against Carr, I will say. I know. He's so good sometimes. When you bet on him and you know within a quarter that he's going to suck, it's like oh, I bet on the Derek Carr who

sucks today. And then you have the other ones where it's like I'm, oh, I bet on the Derek Carr who sucks today. And then you have the other ones where it's like, I'm so fired up I bet against Derek Carr in this tease. And then he becomes the guy who's throwing, getting the PIs. Does anyone get PIs better than him now? No, I mean, especially with Deshaun Jackson just running as fast as he can. Here's where we learned it. We bet against him against the Bengals. And it was like, yep, that's the Derek Carr we know in the second half.

And then we bet against him on Thanksgiving. And it's like, yep, that's the Derek Carr we know in the second half. And then we bet against him on Thanksgiving. And it's like, I hate betting against Derek Carr. Right. Well, Flacco was the PI king. Yes. Just throw it as high and long as you can. His entire offense. And the Raiders were kind of like, yeah, fuck it.

Well, you know, eight times a game, just throw it downfield. I don't know why teams don't do that more often. All right. So we have the Seahawks Niners would be the other piece of that. The Niners are seventh in DVOA now and they have a lot of buzz. A lot of buzz.

They also easily could have... I watched every play of that Minnesota game. They easily could have lost that game. They were dying to give that game back to Minnesota. And as you pointed out,

they lost their two best players last week. Warner and Samuel. And Samuel, if they gave out most valuable player for receiver, I think he would have been the most valuable receiver this year, right? Him or Cup? He's the first NFL wide receiver

to have five rushing touchdowns in a season. He's also only the third player in NFL history. Roger Craig and Marshall Falkley and the others. And this is only in week 12. These guys did it over a season. 1,000 receiving yards, five rushing touchdowns, five receiving touchdowns. He is everything to them. These guys did it over season. Thousand receiving yards, five rushing touchdowns, five receiving touchdowns.

He is everything to them. He sets up the Eli Mitchell. He sets up the George Kittle. So I don't know how that offense is going to function without him. More importantly, Seattle 16 and four in their last 20 against San Francisco.

They just, this is the team that Wilson owns. Cause initially I was thinking like, Oh, Niners Seahawks are dead. Put it, pour some dirt on them. They're three and that Wilson owns. Initially, I was thinking, oh, Niners. Seahawks are dead. Pour some dirt on them. They're 3-8. Also, 9-8 could easily make

the playoffs. 8-9 might make the playoffs. I was texting with Danny Kelly and Mina about it. The Seahawks fans are just in all time. They have to be. There's no future. Oh, my God. Look at the things they got. The Jamal Adams pick is one thing. That's going to end up being the fifth pick overall. Also, Pete is 70 years old

and under contract till 2025 and Schneider is under contract till 2027. So it's not like, there's like, you can't do mass changes right now. Danny tweeted the other day about how he went through their last seven years of drafts and free agent signings and it was just dark.

That was his first, like, it was just like really, really rough where it was like. And every year. It was just like really, really rough. Really since the Malcolm Butler Super Bowl. Yeah, and it's supposed to be like, Jordan Brooks, this is the year. And he's a first-round pick. And it's like,

these guys that for years we've been hearing about, this is the year that this guy, this Daryl Taylor is going to be. It just hasn't clicked. It hasn't happened. And yet. Also doesn't seem like the chemistry is amazing. No. Chemistry's a little shaky. Also, it doesn't seem like the chemistry is amazing on that team.

No, but I would say... Chemistry is a little shaky. Wilson, Lockett, Metcalf, like, is there a better trio still at wide receiver and quarterback? Like, can't they still win games? Yeah, I'd hope so. Yeah, plus 144 against a team that is basically a 500 team missing its two best players that we have no idea if they can play from behind at all. Yeah.

Right? They're down seven. So, yeah. So yeah. All right. We'll hesitantly do the Niners with Washington. Steelers plus 140 against the Ravens. The Steelers are permanent

stay away for us now, right? Can't. Not after last week. That Bengals thing. I was like, yeah, no. I can't in good faith after two weeks in a row betting on that team that lost the way they've lost All right, Kyle Here we go Turn the camera

Million dollar picks Week 13 Peter Schrager and I Are down 800 Oh, I'm sorry Let me dig in All right, Kyle Turn the camera

Million dollar picks Week 13 The comeback All right, Kyle, turn the camera. Million dollar picks, week 13. The comeback starts here. We lost $776,000 last week. And we learned a valuable lesson. Don't make picks on a Tuesday. Don't make picks literally right after the last week had ended. I have a lot of regrets,

not knowing if CeeDee Lamb wasn't going to play all that stuff. This is the week of the tees. We are going to do a $300,000 tees. Minnesota down to one against the terrible, winless Detroit Lions. Dallas to a pick'em

on Thursday night against the Saints. We're sneaking that in under the wire. Get to root against Taysom Hill tonight, Schrags. 300K on that. 300K on a Minnesota-Dallas Patriots. Three-team. Three-team tees plus 140.

Actually, we're going to put 250K on that, not 300. So that one, we got to do a Thursday night, and then we got to wait all the way to Monday night. We're really earning that one. Thursday, Sunday, Monday. It's a three-tier tease. $250K plus $140K odds. Minnesota down to one.

Dallas to pick them. The Patriots up to eight and a half. We think that's a one-score game, right? Yeah. What's the scenario for you where it's not a one-score game? Josh Allen does what he did last week against New Orleans, and it's just awesome. It's like, here, I'm just going to dominate you, and that could happen.

Hey, Josh, let me introduce you to number nine, Matt Judon. Matthew Judon. Guess who's going to be wearing a jersey that night of Matt Judon? Nephew Kyle. He's got one. His birthday present arrived from Fanatics. Yeah. Red sleeves.

Red sleeves underneath. Not only are we watching that game together, I actually get to have a couple drinks. Monday night? Little Monday night. No podcast right after. Let's go. Finally, another 300K.

Nine point tees. Nine point tees on FanDuel. Minus 115. Chiefs down to minus 0.5 Against Denver All they have to do is win Just win by a point One point Pat Mahomes

The Bucs down to minus 2 Against the Falcons Who are 32nd in DVOA The Bucs are first If we lose the tease Because number 1 in DVOA Loses to number 32 in DVOA We'll live with that

Fine I'll send you the check And then we're Beefing up the Pats To plus 11 and a half. Love it. This is where Warren Sharp goes. You now have six teams where you need the results to go your way to win all these bets.

Yeah, I hear you, Warren Sharp. All right. Then finally, two more straight up bets. Bengals minus three chargers. Yes. Fun Bengals. We're in. They already had their Jets moment.

It doesn't happen again. 60% kind of in on the Bengals. 40% I already had their Jets moment. It doesn't happen again. 60% kind of in on the Bengals. 40%, I don't think the Chargers. I'm sorry. I don't feel like you're that good, especially 10 a.m. Sunday, West Coast, East Coast. Did you see the Chargers linemen

all dancing with Nixon? That's what I'm envisioning. Chiefs to offense, we could parlay these as a money line together To minus 116 Do we go separately? Dolphins playing the Giants We could go

Dolphins minus four and a half straight up And hope they beat Mike Is it definitely Mike Lennon? No Jones is practicing We don't know yet That's why these Thursdays are tough We're going to put 200 on Chiefs to offense.

Both teams have to win. Minus 116. And then finally, the underdog parlay of the week, which we get to boost for ourselves because FanDuel is going to boost it as well. Washington plus 120 against the Raiders. Seahawks plus 144 against the Niners. We're boosting that too.

Plus 550. Washington and Seattle both have to win. Peter Schrager, I have a question for you. Are our feelings going to be heard on Monday night or not after all of these bets come in? This is now a Thursday, Sunday, Monday rollercoaster ride for us. Who's hurting our feelings? Who are you worried about? Our Sundays are grueling, you and me, because we text all day and it's not gone well. But at least by Monday, we wake up with a fresh perspective. To have to suffer through Thursday,

Sunday. And I can't, I can't even imagine it. Yes. I feel like Tony Soprano in the chasing it episode, but I also feel like this could end up. Okay. And this could be our week and bill,

we could be out of this hole. And suddenly we're, we're riding high. I like it. I don't think it's teaser week. It's teaser and parlay week here. A million dollar picks week 13, Peter Schrager.

We can see you on good morning football and on a Fox this Sunday. Good to dollar picks week 13. Peter Schrager, we can see you on Good Morning Football and on Fox this Sunday. Good to see you as always. Great to see you, Bill. All right, Chuck Klosterman is here. He's been on this podcast many times over the last 15 years. This is one of the most important ones we've done.

You think so? I do. What was the previous top? The Malaysian aircraft, the death of Eddie Van Halen, or the original one about the failure of the Olympic team in 2004? No, the near failure in 2008. I thought the most important one we did was the JFK assassination with Chris Connolly. Hmm. Well, I guess historians will have to decide. You know, maybe somebody will like Peter Jackson will go back and take all our podcasts and then get all the stuff that happens before and after and sort of have a new portrait of what our relationship actually is.

That'll be very, you know, revealing. Well, that's why this Beatles thing, it's eight hours. I was excited for it just because I knew how much time Peter Jackson spent on it. And I think he's talented. I wasn't prepared for it to completely reinvent not only what I thought of the Beatles, but what I thought of the last two years of what happened with them and some of the myths and half-truths that were out there. I don't think this is a documentary

as much as like a historical document. It felt like really important. This is the most important band we've ever had. Whether people could say it's the greatest, whatever, it's up to the person. It's the most important. And this is this, all of this footage that answered all of these questions, at least for me. And you care about

this stuff even more than I do. What was your reaction watching it? Well, no, you know, I was waiting for this since I heard about it. Then on Thanksgiving, like my family wanted to watch more sort of traditional Thanksgiving films. So I couldn't watch it that day. And Friday, it was the Zags and Duke, so I couldn't watch it then. And then all day Saturday, of course, there was a lot going on. I'd like to actually ask you about Georgia and Alabama at some point. Finally, I started watching it on Saturday night. And I mean, what you're saying is completely true. I mean, there are things that people have asked and speculated and wondered about the Beatles for 50 years.

I feel like I've spent over half my life having discussions over things that have now just been directly answered. Like, I kind of can't believe it. I mean, I don't, there's, well, there's no, I can't think of any comparison for this, where there's something that's unknown and a subjective thing. You know, it's not like necessarily an objective thing. Like, you know, we find a fact from the past and it proves somebody was somewhere or somebody wasn't somewhere, but these are more subjective things. The relationship between these four guys, the role Yoko played during this period of the band, the way they perceived themselves, the degree to which Paul sort of took over the band, like all of these things now are just answered. It's a very kind of mind-blowing thing. And, you know, people have,

I've had a bunch of conversations with people about the length of this, right? There's many people saying it's too long. You were one, you told me you thought it was too long, you know? And then there's an hour too long. And then there's a pushback from some other people who are like, oh no, I wish it was longer. I wish it kept going.

I would say it's the correct length. Like, because what we like, there are so many things like from the movie, let it be like the, like the situation where George is talking to Paul and saying, you know, I'll play any way you want. I won't play at all. I just want to sort of, you know, please you or whatever and let it be that seems like a extremely adversarial confrontation but now with sort of all the stuff around it it's not that way it's a it's a it's a combination of george's annoyance but also his his he's not being totally ironic when he says, like, I just want to do this for you to be happy. Because, I mean, you watch this thing and you really realize how much more McCartney is invested than the other three guys.

And that, you know, John still thinks it's important they do this. George is unsure why they're doing this. And then Ringo is just, he almost is like, well, I'm just part of this group and I'll do whatever they want. And my feelings are almost irrelevant. It's very interesting seeing their relationships to the camera. Paul is obviously the most aware of the camera at all times. John acts more like kind of like Jim from The Office. I was going to say Holden Caulfield. Well, he just likes occasionally to look into the camera. So just to kind of tell people, it's like, I know we're being filmed here.

And I know this is like, you know, I want you to be aware of this. I'm sort of unsure what my purpose with this band is in a larger. And then George does not want him to be doing it at all. He would, he doesn't see the sense in doing this. He just wants to essentially make his solo record. And Ringo was aware of the camera and yet does not change his personality. Like, I think that in some ways is a remarkable thing, but I mean, these guys have been watched constantly for six years. So the idea of being watched, it's not like the first season of the real world or something where these people are figuring out how this feels. I mean, they almost go into it with the idea that we're being watched at all times. And even it's, uh, I don't know. I mean,

I just, I think that, that the amount of footage the guy got that Jackson got is the right amount, because if there is less, it's the same problem that was with Let It Be. And if it's more, I do think that there is, you know, there was some, you know, kind of moments where it's like, even as someone fascinated by this, your mind can wander away. But what would you cut down?

I mean, if anything, you'd probably want to cut down some of the musical interludes, which technically is the most important part. So I it's I mean, I feel like this is the length that should be that this that he got this right. The great job. It looks amazing, particularly the first half of the movie before they go to Abbey Road where they had those kind of multicolored backgrounds. So it's very dreamlike. And in some ways for weirdos, like I guess me, there were dreamlike elements of this. Like George talking about how he feels about his role in the band in that way to those guys, I never thought I would ever see that.

I thought it was one of the best pieces of content I've ever consumed in my life. And when I say it was too long, like, yeah, you could have cut a half hour, 45 minutes to an hour, I'm sure. It doesn't ultimately really matter. This is so rich. There's so many things going on.

And it's so out of control that this exists. That was what I had the same reaction to as I'm watching. I'm just like, I just can't believe this. I of control that this exists. That was what I had the same reaction to as I'm watching. I'm just like, I just can't believe this. I can't believe this exists. When he starts messing around and trying to figure out let it be and there's like three conversations going around

and he's like, oh, do I have this? And he's just playing the piano. They're cutting a Ringo and he's talking to somebody and it's like, oh, over there is one of like the seven, eight, nine geniuses we've ever had in our lives is creating one of his best songs. As all this like cacophony is happening. This documentary has like 20 moments like that where you're just like, I just can't believe this exists. How did this take so long? Where was this?

And, you know, and like things change. Right. long. Where was this? And, you know, and like, like things change, right? So it's like a lot of people have commented on the scene where like Paul's playing guitar and he's kind of singing gibberish. And then about 45 seconds into it, he basically creates the song, get back for the first time. And many people have been, this is amazing, you know? Um, you know, and, and it is, and I think a lot of people would be like, well, why wasn't that in the original movie? But the thing is, in the present, you sometimes can't tell what is important. Like while it's happening, I mean, they they don't have any realization that I mean, I wouldn't say, you know, I mean, let it be in general. I would is one of my least favorite Beatles records. I mean, it's a great album compared to other musicians, but compared to the Beatles,

and they're within the bottom third. But what I'm saying is like, I get this book coming out next year on the 90s, and this happened to me sometimes when I was going back, and I would research something from the 90s, and I would find a small detail, and I would think to myself like, well, that seems important now.

It obviously couldn't have seen important then. You can see its placement in the story or whatever the way it's, that time has to move on for you to understand that something is meaningful. So that probably seemed just sort of like kind of regular musical work when they were making the original movie,

but now it seems amazing that they have that. But that's why he constructed this this way, because he shows just a lot of footage of them fucking around, messing around, playing old songs they've done, playing songs that would never make an album, just kind of, I don't know, enjoying each other's company and trying to keep that flame kindled. But then as you're watching it, and then all of a sudden there's this real moment of brilliance and it's

like, wait a second, is he, is he trying to figure out, let it be? It's like, wait a second, is he trying to figure out, get back? And then you realize, and that's why I, to me, that's why it has to be the length. It is maybe a little too long, but you, you know what I mean? Well, you know, I think when this thing was being promoted, the idea was this is going to sort of reverse the ideas that we had from Let It Be, which was like, you know, always sort of used as this example of a movie about a band breaking up and you see this happen. And this is going to kind of reverse that. And that is true. That does happen in a lot of ways. The interaction between them is different, I guess, slightly different than what I imagined. But it's much more than just

reversing it. Like, I don't think that people expected that this would be like such an intimate view of, of their interaction. I mean, you know, like when John and Paul are talking about George temporarily quitting. In the flower pot scene. Yes. And I mean, you,

you, you find something that I think some people probably didn't like, which is that Paul doesn't seem to respect him as a musician much at all, and basically sees him as somebody that he can teach or, you know, uh, and he was, he was younger, which was, I think part of it, he was like four years younger than John and they're, you know, they're all so, I mean, like the Beatles broke up before Harrison turned 30, which is another just bizarre fact. Always that that whole thing happened before he, before like the age I was when I moved to New York or whatever. I can't believe that. But like also, and John has more of sort of a, of a, of a personal relationship to George,

but also does not see him as irreplaceable. I mean, they definitely see themselves as that we're like, we're two and they're two and George wants it to be so that they're three. And they're pretty dismissive of his material, a lot of which ends up on all things must pass and is great and all these things. Although, you know, it's like when he – it's just interesting to see how they react to his material, which I think that they view as kind of simple in a way, or like, you know, when in the third episode,

when they're having an argument, John and Paul are having kind of a very cordial argument over like what the idea of this whole project is supposed to be. And like Paul says, we have all the, you know, we build all these obstacles in like George is, there's no movies.

We don't want to do movies anymore. And now it kind of reflects badly on Paul because it's sort of like, so why were you concerned with making film? Why were you not more interested in this idea of the Beatles just being a musical act? But his vision was bigger. Like he was sort of like, like films are an essential thing. And you get the sense that, that John agrees with him begrudgingly. And, you know, obviously he's sort of getting a push from Yoko because I don't think John would have done anything during this period without Yoko's sort of stamp of approval.

So, I mean, but these are things like, like to talk about, it's not, you're right. It's not really like a music documentary. Like it's not, it's not really for, it's entertaining, but it's not really for casual entertainment. Well, the stuff with John and as the years pass, and I think the 1970 to 1980

almost framed the Beatles opinions or our opinions about them as much as anything else. You go read that Playboy interview he did, which I think he did before he died, but it ran after he died. He's got so much disdain for McCartney in it. One of the things was like, I don't need

to constantly prove myself the way he does is basically his thought. You could even feel that in these sessions where McCartney, you're right, like Lennon's begrudgingly like, yeah, you're right, we should do this. McCartney's the one who's like pushing, pushing, pushing. But going back to George,

I thought that was so fascinating. And it was like the flower pot. And then there's a couple, like when Lennon's like, well, we could just get Clapton to play the guitar. Like they did think he was replaceable. And the reality is these guys were two of like the all-time geniuses we've ever had.

And Harrison was really good, but he wasn't on their level. And he wanted to get more respect from them. And I think you could kind of see in Paul's face sometimes, he's kind of like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, doesn't he realize like he's with me and john we're like two of the all-time greats what who wants to hear from you you're not on our you're not on our level you see well but i i mean i guess in a way that's true but what i mean more is that sort of that that they see him as like a uh he's chris bosh like, like, well, maybe.

That's possible. Say, hey, Chris, set some picks and space the floor. You know, like, we've all sort of, okay, like you said, that Playboy interview. There was also an interview that, that Lenny had done with Jan Wenner earlier, where he goes through the entire catalog of the Beatles. He's like, I wrote that song.

Paul wrote that. Obviously, Paul wrote that. So I came into this kind of with the belief that essentially starting from the White Album, they were writing completely separately, that they didn't really have a relationship. But while that is true to a degree, it was still more collaborative, I guess, than I thought it was. Like, like they do see, you know, they, they really kind of trust each other's opinion on these things and help each other out.

And, um, I mean that all those dynamics was just kind of, I mean, sort of charming. I mean, like, I mean, there's just, I don't know. There's so many things. Wait, I'm going to, we got to take that further. That was my favorite part of the doc. I thought what would emerge from this over eight hours. And it's so weird that it went so sideways and there's a lot of reasons for it that we can get into, but over and over again, you just get the sense Leonard McCartney, they fucking loved

each other. They love playing music together and they really were connected. And that two of us scene, which is edited really brilliantly when it's just, they're locked in on each other. And Harrison's kind of over there on the side, getting more and more bummed out because he's like an appendage to them. Right. And they're just vibing off each other in a way. It's almost like watching a romance, you know, these guys. And that's what I wasn't prepared for. Cause I thought the last two years, I thought it was way more contentious, but I think they love playing music together. I really do. Even to the end.

Well, you know, what you're saying is I've seen this written about that. There is this this kind of desire now to view this like, you know, when when they're talking about two of us or whatever, it's like, oh, it almost seems like they're like, you know, John makes the joke about them being lovers. I have a slightly different reading on some of this. Okay. I'm actually kind of doing actually what you do with the NBA guys once well, I might be reading too much into the body language, particularly since,

you know, John was certainly smoking weed during this movie. I think on heroin during a lot of this movie and there's just, you know, there's different kinds of personalities. There's like people who smoke pot and talk more and people who smoke pot and talk less and Paul talks more and John talks less. But what I often see or I seem to project maybe into Lennon's face is not that I love this guy. It was actually, I don't like this person. I guess I love them in the way a brother might love his brother who they don't get along.

I'm sick of hearing this. I just, I know that this guy is a genius. I know we have this incredible relationship and our music differentiates us from all other musicians. But I don't know, like, he seems to kind of love George and he seems to kind of love Ringo in that way. But I don't, I did not see not see like their relationship to me seemed like hard. That's so funny. I completely disagree. I saw it totally differently.

But maybe maybe that's why this is such a great film. Well, or or I guess in some ways it could counter contradict my initial statement. That's like now all these questions are answered. Maybe these questions aren't answered. Maybe that makes more questions in some way. But I just, I don't, like a lot of times there are shots of all three people looking at Paul and they have that look on their face.

And I bet many people out here who are listening to this, who have jobs where you deal with other people and this experience, somebody who asks you a question, listens to you, answer it, and actually just wants to talk about what they think of it. Yeah. They just want it. They just want to talk about it. And, but they feel like if they just talk about it, it would somehow be strange. So they have to like almost kind of make frame it as a conversation. And you can see these guys are going like, you're not really listening to me. You don't, you just want to go through this and you want to run through all these options. I thought it was

very interesting. Also, I think it's in the third episode where at one point, John Lennon has had dinner with Alan Klein, Who was like the Stones manager and briefly the Beatles manager. And he comes back from this thing and he is just like, this guy's a genius. He understands me better than you do, George, which in some ways does kind of show

that John, which has always sort of been a perception of him, kind of a naive realist. Like he's a realist, but he's naive that he believes the information he has is all the information there is to have. But he's a realist but he's naive that he believes the information he has is all the information there is to have but he's talking to glenn johns who's you know the the engineer here about alan klein it's so good yes and and john lennon is saying like this guy

is just he's brilliant you know i just he's so creative and johnson's like you know he probably talks to you differently because you're you but But every time I talk to him, he asked me a question. And if he doesn't like my answer, he changes the subject immediately. And I don't like that. And I was like, boy, that's like, that's like, these are the kinds of things where it's like, I feel like I learned a lot about Alan Klein in 45 seconds. Well, wait, go even go earlier than that, where he's like,

John Lennon's like, he's great. And Glenn Johns is going, it's kind of weird though, right? And John Lennon's like, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And then Glenn Johns is again, it's like, I thought it was pretty weird. But then he realizes John really likes him. So he kind of circles back and tries to compliment him and then does what you just said. But it's laying the groundwork where Glenn Johns is basically like, do I tell this guy that to run from Alan Klein? And you can tell that he doesn't want to. Alan Klein is the guy who, you know, I think should get the most credit for breaking these guys up if you're going

to do the blame pie. Well, I, that's, you know, I mean, here is, okay. I guess this is the thing that a lot of people are probably watching this for, uh, or maybe even listening to this podcast for it's like, okay, so what made the Beatles break up now? Hold on. Can we take a break before you answer this? Sure. All right. We're taking a break. All right. Coming back. You mentioned a lot of people are watching this doc thinking, all right, is this going to answer the question for me? Why did the Beatles break up? What is your answer to that? Well, so it has become like verboten over the last really 15, but 25 years to still blame Yoko. You know, that is seen as being sexist and racist

and people just will lose their mind to even if you make jokes about like calling someone a Yoko or whatever, you know. The thing is, what this series shows to me is that Yoko's role in the breakup in the Beatles was kind of like, I guess, epiphenomenal sort of. It's like, she's part of it, but not because of who she is or anything she does. It's because John Lennon decided,

I'm with this person and they're going to be with me everywhere I go. And we're actually one person now. And if you're talking to me, you're talking to her. Like, it could have been Harry Nielsen. If he would have brought Harry Nielsen into the studio with him and he was just like, you're sitting there,

he's going to sit here and knit and just always be here. I mean, Paul talks about this pretty straightforwardly. He doesn't seem to have negative views about Yoko, but he's like, well, I guess this is how it is now. John's a real intense, emotional person. They're always going to be together. And if he's got to choose between the Beatles and Yoko, he's definitely going to choose Yoko. Now, somebody could watch this and say, well, Paul brings Linda McCartney into the studio. He brings his daughter and all that.

That's true. But you always get the sense that like. She could leave at any time. It's like she's just kind of passing through. There's people watching them rehearse. And then Yoko is actually sitting next to John Lennon as they rehearse, which is the big difference. If McCartney had to choose between Linda and the Beatles, he would also choose Linda.

But what he's basically saying is it would never come to that. I'm not the kind of person who would ever be in a situation where I got to make this decision. Whereas John is like, it's not even a decision. We're together now. If you want to be with, talk to me, you're talking to her. She's here. We're one person.

It's even beyond we're together now. We don't end. We're like combined. It's even beyond we're together now. We don't end. We're like combined. So his just perception of the world is changing, you know? And like, you know, he's the,

he'll mention the Beatles kind of a lot in a joking way throughout this, you know, like I, he's almost sort of taken on the perception that like a lot of grunge musicians in the nineties took on where it was like, it's stupid that this happened to us. Like it's dumb. We're this popular, dumb. We're this rich. I'm a little embarrassed by it. It seems antithetical to the reason I got into music. And I, I just, I, I'm not comfortable with this, you know? Um, and, well, that's, that's every

interview that he gave in the last 10 years of his life where it almost seems like it's like when, if some, if you had a friend who got married when they were 19 and then when they were 28, they got divorced and you're like, what happened? And they would say, I mean, I married her when I was 19. People change. I'm a totally different person now. It's kind of the way Lennon talks about the Beatles.

It's like, yeah, I knew these guys and I grew up with them and we made all this music, but now I'm doing this. Like it's done. It's not coming back. He's pretty adamant about it. Well, cause okay. So like Harrison, I think even more so about that. Cause he joined the band when he was so young that his entire adult life had been the Beatles.

So he's almost a little bit like, you know, you know like when there was all the Barry Bonds coverage, and like Barry Bonds did not seem to think it was a big deal that he's a major league baseball player, because his father had been, and his uncle or godfather, he was Billy Mays, it's like, to him, the idea of being a major league baseball player was not a remarkable thing. George is the same situation that he he did never perceived

being in the beatles as really anything more than a really an obstruction in a lot of ways i can't go wherever i want i can't do whatever i want i can't even make all the songs i want right now i'm getting better at music and i want to i want to explore things that i can't because i'm stuck in this band and then there's a there't because I'm stuck in this band. And then there's a brief discussion in this thing where he talks about the idea of, well, maybe I'll make a record and then we'll still keep the Beatles thing together or whatever.

It would have been interesting if that would have happened. If all the Beatles had been kissing 78, if they'd all made solo records and kept going. I wonder what the result would have been of that. Well, continuing that point. So Lennon clearly is outgrowing the band. It just wants to be with Yoko

and is kind of tired of the whole Beatles thing. Harrison is feeling like, I'm always going to be the little brother on this band. I'm never going to be taken seriously. I'm going to have to do my own thing at some point. McCartney, and you really feel it for all eight hours, he's looking at this three-week session as like, we have to save this. We're the most important band that's ever lived. We have a responsibility. We can still make great music. And he's constantly, he has by far the most

energy, charisma, everything in this, because he's constantly trying to lift these guys up. It's like to Brower the basketball analogy again. It's like watching the great player on the team that might not, a little like Last Dance, like we might not be back next season. Let's go all in. We got one more title on us. And that's the vibe he has. And it's probably the best Kind of songwriting Musical stretch of his career If you're saying in three weeks All the songs they came up with out of this

That's interesting I guess, you know Because when you look at McCartney 1 and McCartney 2 I mean, like, maybe I'm amazed And some of that material is on there too If you're looking If you put that in the same window of time

But he spent about a year A year and a half Making those albums This is, they're doing this in what, 14 days? Well, that's the other weird thing. It's like the Beatles are on deadline. Yeah. They're not going to get, what's going to happen?

Because Ringo needs the stage. Ringo needs the stage on January 24th. So they're just like, they're always putting themselves under the gun on purpose. It is interesting how this is what successful people always seem to do, which is that upon reaching their level of success, they still sort of need to build in these things that are obligatory. I guess maybe if you take your foot off the gas,

everything changes. Well, he has a quote. He says in here, I wrote this down, the best bit of us always has been and will be when our backs are to the wall. Now, all right, why is that? It's because I think for them, it probably sucked to be in the Beatles in a lot of ways by like 1967, right? They were too famous. They couldn't go anywhere. They couldn't even do live shows anymore. They were the most studied people in the world other than maybe Elvis. So that part, I think they were retreating from. You said Lennon, who had a bunch of issues. You mentioned the drug stuff with him.

He definitely seems like he's a little all over the map. And we know after this, him and Yoko both had heroin stuff after. Who knows if it was starting during this. But I think that's why McCartney probably Sensed like if we don't get this shit done In the next three weeks I might never See John again John might be gone

I mean Especially the very In the first episode like there are situations Where John does just seem totally gacked He just does not seem like he's engaged With kind of what's going on The thing you said about Paul having the most charisma, that is an interesting deal. Because if you said which was the most charismatic Beatle, everybody would say McCartney or whatever.

But like the line you quoted where he goes like, we're at our best when our back is against the wall. It's a cliched line. Well, it's not even so much of a cliche thing. It seems the kind of thing you say because you're aware this is a film like some of Paul's charisma is forced in a way that the other guys refuse to do. I mean, Ringo and George, the most John does some stuff like where he's like,

Oh, when they're running through songs, he feels this obligation to use a funny voice sometimes. And he and he he's a performative person. But it does not seem as though he is performing for the for this film. It almost seems like I'm doing this to make it harder for you to make a normal film. He starts mocking McCartney as McCartney singing. He's like mopping the words, all that stuff. Whereas Paul sometimes is sort of like, OK, now in the words, all that stuff. Uh,

whereas Paul sometimes is sort of like, okay, I need to say the things that we say in this. I mean, it's, you know, he's McCartney has always been the most fascinating beetle. Certainly this series has only amplified that.

I mean, it's like, you know, there, there are so many things about him that, uh, are contradictory. And you can't tell if, you know,

sometimes he has a kind of a boyish earnesty that will seem somewhat false when you put it up against other things he says, you know, a short time later. So it's an interesting deal. I was thinking this morning, in the 70s then, John has this song called How Do You Sleep? Are you aware of this song? I'm aware of all this stuff.

That's like the first hit diss track, basically. Well, yeah mean, yeah I mean, it's a mean song It's kind of on the level of Idiot Wind In terms of meanness In some ways, it's even meaner Because everybody knows who he's talking about But

It's hard to sort of see how John has those feelings In 1969 He doesn't seem To have that kind of animosity toward him. So then the thing is, is like the thing that really drove these guys crazy, besides, you know, Alan Klein's involvement and how that kind of split them into a group of three and a group of one. But, you know, I think now Paul really regrets.

I think if he had if if you asked him and he was totally honest, like, what is the regret of his professional life? It would be putting out that press release claiming that he was leaving the Beatles because, you know, basically, I think at the time and I can totally understand this. Paul thought, well, it'll look better if I'm leaving on my own. When in truth, it was like John and George were the people who didn't really want this to keep going as it was. But so Paul puts this press release out and everybody reads it. And for the rest of time, then he has to sort of deal with this fact. It's like, oh, maybe if I direct this, you know, back toward somebody else or Yoko or say it's complicated or whatever. But I wonder if what John hates is the fact that he knows that Paul did that for personal reasons, that Paul pretended that he wanted to leave the Beatles to further launch his solo career.

And that was really kind of the breaking point because, you know, it's like, like, not only does John sing that song, it's like, I'm pretty sure George plays guitar on that song. And I don't know if Ringo plays drums on it, but Ringo plays drums on some of Lennon's solo stuff. So it's like, they all had this feeling. They all had this feeling that it was them and Paul

once the band ended. Well, they also, I mean, the money stuff is, to me, way more important than Yoko. Not just like, Epstein dies in 67, they don't have the manager. Klein comes in,

Lennon's really pushing for Klein. McCartney's suspicious of him for a bunch of reasons. So that starts it. But then there was that other piece where the publishing, the thing that Lennon and McCartney have, where it was like, you could buy shares in it and stuff thing that Lennon and McCartney have, where it was like you could

buy shares in it and stuff. And Lennon found out McCartney had bought more shares in it and they had agreed that they would have the same shares, but suddenly McCartney had more. So it seemed like the money and the amount of money that was at stake was messing it up at least a little bit. But honestly, I think there were a lot of drugs involved too. What do drugs do sometimes? They make people paranoid, suspicious. They make them erratic. And this is a really weird time in general. There's upheaval everywhere. The format of music is just changing and being innovated rapidly. Can you think of music? Has there been any four-year period ever in music where music changed more from 1967 to 1971. They have all these people that are coming for their

corner. I don't know. It just seems like if the band isn't tight, which it clearly as much as the love that we saw in this documentary, if those guys aren't tight, then they're going to have the same outcome that we've seen all these other bands have over the last

50 years, you know? So it makes sense to me that they broke up, I guess is my point. I suppose the only period where music changed more would have actually been kind of like from early 90s, meet the Beatles to Sergeant Pepper. Because from that, I mean,

like where the Beatles begin at, it is sort of almost a 50 ish style of music. And by the time Sergeant Pepper comes out, it is sort of almost a 50-ish style of music. And by the time Sgt. Pepper comes out, it is now, singles are now less important than albums. The idea of albums having concepts and ideas and being cohesive, the use of instrumentation that goes outside of basically bass, drum, guitar, piano. I mean, they, like the song structures of Beatles songs take like such a leap on hard days night. I mean, it just,

it's, it's, you know, and then, and then they, they, there's all of these levels where they just sort of make these big jumps. Well,

it's like what Harrison says about playing the guitar where he's like, there's stuff I can't play. They're playing stuff. And I'm trying, my fingers can't, can't quite get it, you know, cause he knows like whatever's like, there's stuff I can't play. They're playing stuff and my fingers can't quite get it. You know, because he knows like whatever's happening in rock music, it's now moving at a pace that they're not at. He's got to catch up with it.

Can he catch up playing in this band? I thought that I was really interested by that. When he talks about Clapton, you know, very glowingly, it is an interesting deal. His insecurity to me is one of the many charming things about Harrison's personality. Like, you know, there is, he is, there was, you know, so many interesting things about him, about like how he, you know, his, his hatred of taxes, just, it's just, it's an obsession, his obsession with hatred attacks is zero. And toothpaste.

Yes. He looks at Eric Clapton as somebody who, you know, he was like, you know, he can play the song and then start soloing. And then it just takes off and it all makes sense. And he's kind of saying, well, that's not how I am. I put these chords together and it's, know the song is is is not improvisational or it's like like i i play the song the way i i sort of wrote it or whatever you know uh as opposed to having the song just kind of become something else uh i i don't know i i mean if you're eric clapton sitting at home watching this i mean mean, you probably really liked that scene.

That probably made you feel real good that like these guys who are more talented than anyone are like, Oh wow. It'd be great if we were like Eric Clapton. Well, and then you had the Clapton Harrison history, which made that even, even more fascinating.

Um, the creative process in this, which very rarely gets captured correctly in a music doc. You know, and I think that was the Eagles doc, which I love. There's that one scene about Glenn Frey lives underneath Jackson Brown

and Jackson Brown is trying to figure out one of his songs and he just keeps playing the same 45 seconds over and over and over again. And Glenn Frey's like, God, he's going to fucking and over again. And Glenn Fry's like, God, he's going to fucking play this again. And there's a T and it's just really well done. And then he realizes like, oh, that's how you make a song. It's a repetition of it. It's just, you keep having to innovate, try stuff, mess around with it and eventually take shape. I've never seen it done better than it's done in this documentary. I mean, how many times did they play?

Um, don't let me down over the course of eight hours. What is it? Like 50 times? How many times did they mess around with get back? And how many times did it change? The lyrics are changing. Like they're playing off each other. Like,

what do you think of this? What if I do this? And I, I just, I was so mesmerized. I, I, I almost couldn't speak.

Well, I mean, that's, that's why the eight hours is the right length because in order to include all that stuff, I mean, cause if you were cutting this down, any editor would say some of the things that are repetitive, you know, and as a consequence, it would, it would all seem like when Paul comes up with get back, like it would all seem like when Paul comes up with Get Back. It would all seem like it suddenly happened. But by stretching it out like this, it shows you how slow the process actually is, but also illustrates the occasional moments where it just suddenly happens. Yeah. I think that's why you're right with the link. I still felt like, could we have done 30 times of Don't let me down instead of 50?

Like there's stuff like that. Like if you're really like, what's the perfect thing? But on the other hand, Jackson spent four years working on this. Like he obviously considered every single possibility and this is where he landed. Well, also, isn't there a certain amount of time where once you reach that time, what is the purpose in trying to shave anything off for Richard? I mean, once I think that I think very often it's four hours that like if you if you put something together and it's four hours long, you can justify that this is like it's this is long, but we need these four hours. But if you go to five hours, then why are you trying to get it down to four? Like it's, it's all, if once you ask people to invest more time than three hours, you're really saying this is for people who care about

this outside of the content. I mean, that's, that's the big thing. Anybody who's like any complaints, you know, I've now, of course, you know, I know it's always annoying to complain about the reactions to things, but it's like, so the thing comes out on Thursday and then you have a day of all these kind of beetle experts or people who view themselves as beetle experts sort of talking about, um, like just how amazing this is and all these things that they love. And then of course, the way the world is now, there's all these people who kind of feel as though, well, whatever the conversation is,

I have to get part of it. I'm zagging. Well, it's not even they're zagging. It's sometimes they're just saying nothing. It's just like, everyone's talking about the Beatles on Friday. So I'm going to talk about the Beatles on Saturday, just because that's what everyone's doing. And then you get to the third part where it's like, well, now we have to, the Beatles are overrated or whatever. And all these sort of kind of bizarre. Well, not bizarre. Anyone can think anything they want. But it's like, it's just, this is different. The Beatles being overrated is a bad opinion.

I'm just going to, I'm throwing that out there. I mean, to me, they're among the most correctly rated things that have ever existed. Like, you definitely can't argue they're underrated, right? Or you can, maybe if you're a musician or, or if there's like, if you're a musicologist, maybe you can say, actually, these songs are even better than we think. Say they're overrated. I mean, I guess they're considered the greatest band of all time by pretty much anyone who knows anything.

So it's like, it would be, you know, but I really feel like they are very properly rated. I mean, I feel like they're, uh, I've mentioned to this on other podcasts. I just find this to be just a very insightful thing. Ken Burns was talking about the Beatles and sometimes Ken Burns can, you know, kind of be grading or whatever, but he was talking about how once something doesn't exist for 20 years, interest in it starts to go down. And so it goes down a little bit to 30 years, but people still might care about it. 40 years, it goes down a little bit more. 50 years, there's a huge drop off. And then 60 years, there's an exponential drop off because all the people who experienced it firsthand are dying. And then almost everything in culture,

basically after the 40 year mark starts to rapidly sort of erode. And then almost everything in culture, basically after the 40-year mark, starts to rapidly sort of erode. And the Beatles aren't like that. The Beatles are the exception to this. Like, the amount of interest in this series is remarkable. Like, granted, it happened at Thanksgiving and people want something to talk about

and maybe it's that. I just, the interest in the Beatles has decreased less over 50 or 60 years than anything else I can think of. I can't think of one other thing that has been unchanged, like the product is unchanged, and the appreciation for it is the same. I'd be curious if you can think of anything that would fall into this.

I can't. Because I think with music, their ability to get discovered by young people is pretty unusual. Because the songs are so perfectly crafted and anybody who cares about music, who's like teaching in an elementary school or a high school,

the Beatles are going to come up. There's going to be a Beatles song played. Somebody who's trying to learn how to play different instruments, they're probably going to learn a Beatles song at some point. I remember my daughter, who's been singing since she was nine, a couple years ago, one of the songs that she sang with, I think, two other people was Golden Slumbers. And it just sent her on this Beatles run. She was like, this was such a fun song to sing. I'm just going on a dive, you know? And I think one of the things in the Spotify era where you can just make your playlist of whatever versus where like,

there's been a couple Beatles resurgences since I've been alive. And they always centered around releases of things, right? There was like CD release. That was a big thing. And then there was that time, I think in the mid 2000s, it was like,

it's finally on iTunes, the Beatles. And then there's another thing. This one, I think is going to be the biggest revival because, um, I think it's going to take people a while to watch this. It's eight hours.

Not everybody had eight hours last weekend. Well, over the next month, I think they're going to find it. I mean, the Beatles anthology series in the 90s was a big one. It was. And I think that that also, to some degree, caught people by surprise a little bit that I think that I believe it was on ABC. And I think the thinking was this is really going to appeal to like a baby boomer audience. This is going to be something. And it turned the thinking was, this is really going to appeal to like a baby boomer audience. This is going to be something.

And it turned out it was just appealing to everyone. And I think that is sort of when it really I mean, I can his in his book about the Beatles, Rob Sheffield directly says the Beatles are more popular now than they were in the 60s. And when I first read that, I was like, well, that's not really true. But I know what he means by that, because a lot of the people who love the Beatles in the sixties are still around loving them. And passing it to their kids. Well, not even necessarily passing it. Maybe they're finding it kind of just on their own way because the music does not seem to be aging the way other things age. I mean, it's like,

okay, say a movie from the sixtiess like a planet of the apes or whatever right you you show someone planet of the apes now and then you have to be a young person just somebody who hasn't seen it they're going to really recognize the parts of it that um that seem uh separate from now or or or like that it will it they might love it but but not the way someone would have loved it when it came out in theaters whereas people who are discovering the beatles seem to be appreciating it in a similar way i mean i always think led zeppelin's the ultimate example of this where it seems like every generation of people who discover led zeppelin not only like it but like it in the

exact same way it was like in the 70s the The Beatles aren't quite like that because there are things about the Beatles now that we know that kind of get kind of injected back into the music. And that, but it's not harming it in any way. Like they're, you know, the Kinks made a lot of great records in the 60s, but it's not the same to listen to that music now. I feel like I'm listening to the past

where there are parts of Beatles songs that do not feel like the past. Yeah, that's fair. I've had stages where I've gotten tired of the Beatles. I probably have enjoyed the Rolling Stones music more, just personally, just because they made more of it and it's more modern. I think they had more of an advantage.

They basically, they get the entire 70s. The Beatles have nothing from the 70s, right? So at the same time, I think, I just think the Beatles were the most important band that ever existed. And I don't think anyone's going to ever pass them either because they come along at the perfect time. They had two geniuses, which is like impossible when you think like two geniuses, the same band. And they're also so brilliant. They elevate the third guy. I don't know what

happens to George Harrison if he doesn't end up in that band, right? 14 year old George, it's just in some random band. Does he make it? I don't know. I have more stuff to discuss, but let's take one more break. We got to talk about the leadership piece of this band because it was kind of looming over the eight hours of this doc. And my, my, what I always thought was that Lennon was kind of the leader, right?

He was the rock of the band. But then as the years passed, McCartney kind of became more of the creative leader, but everyone still deferred to John. John was kind of the alpha. They addressed this in the doc, in that teapot scene, where McCartney basically says like, you know, you were the leader, but now I feel like I have to step up. And then they had this really frank conversation about it. And I was like, kind of, I thought the teapot scene, that whole thing was just, I almost couldn't believe it existed. And Lennon kind of acknowledging like, yeah, it's kind of your band now, but at the same time, the reason he's saying it is because he knows like he's checking out of the band. He just wants to be with Yoko.

But that whole, that whole piece, when we talk at the top about how this doc answers these different questions, they answer that in the flower pot scene. Like they lay out anything we've ever wondered about who was in charge of the band, who was grabbing the steering wheel. It's all answered in that one scene in the eight hours too, but especially that scene.

But did you know a lot of that stuff? Well, I mean, I guess sort of, although not maybe to the depth that we know now after this thing, I mean, like in this movie at one time, Paul says, it's like, you know, I'm not really comfortable being the boss. The only people who say that are people who are, who want to be the boss. I mean, nobody ever said that if you say um i think that what if it had like like len was the leader in the beginning because in the beginning their manager kind of handled everything and they just focused on the music and when you look at the first really half certainly the first third of their career. He kind of was the main writer on most of the songs or whatever. And then I think what happened is Paul took over the enterprise of the Beatles,

which includes the music, but everything else, like, like the whole idea of, I mean, like the magical mystery tour was all Paul's idea and nobody else wanted to do it. And he was like, let's do it. He was, he seemed to be, think film was a, needed to be a bigger thing. He was very, I mean, just him talking about visuals. I mean, it's not surprising to hear someone like, you know, Taylor Swift is talking about needing visuals. It's because she grew up in an age where like MTV was already done by the time she started watching it or whatever. It's like the idea of having a visual component to music

is a normal thing. But that was not a thing. And I mean, you know, it was like Elvis had made movies, but it was sort of like, just can we take his celebrity? Elvis was the example where it's like this second way to experience somebody. Yeah. And you can see like in this doc how much they still care about Elvis.

Like they care about his birthday or whatever, you know? He's like 34, I think. So like Paul kind of took over the whole thing. So he's taking over the business side. He's kind of taking over the music because now what he believes should be the trajectory of the band is an extension of Sgt. Pepper, which is really his record.

I mean, that's that was when he took over. That was it all from that point on. It was really his band. And and John is is like, I don't know. I mean, I just I think unhappy is not the right word, but. Maybe a bit disinterested, although, you know, there's this audio tape that came out, I believe from a, a, a band meeting they had, I think in 1970, maybe it was 69 late, you know, maybe later that year, um, where like John does

bring up the idea of the Beatles making a Christmas record. So like he wasn't completely checked out. Right. Like he was, you know, um, I don't know. Maybe it was the, maybe the drugs at that point,

he's kind of all over the map with it. And there were days where it's like, Hey, a Christmas album. That sounds like a great idea. And then the next day, no. So I'm curious just because like,

okay, so, uh, you know, you started out as a writer and now you kind of, do you relate to Paul? Do you feel, does part of you see Paul and be like, I know how that is when at one point in your career you're mostly a creative person and now you're the person

who has to run everything and of course everyone feels differently about him because of that. Is there a Beatle you relate to? Great question. I think what I related to was the feeling of trying to keep something together, which I felt like was McCartney's role in that whole thing.

Because he could tell George was slipping away. Ringo was there no matter what. And then Lennon was the wild card and the Lennon Yoko thing he could see. And he was very aware that they basically had three weeks or this was might go away forever. And that was relatable to me because I've probably been in situations over the years where it's like, oh shit, this might fall apart if this doesn't happen. But in terms of relating to him, the guy was one of the all-time musical geniuses.

I was more in awe of his ability to just come up with stuff. I was watching him more for that. I really wasn't watching him for the big picture stuff. Do you then relate more to George in that way? No, I didn't relate to George at all. George, I thought, was the most annoying, although I did feel bad for him. But I did kind of feel that

I kept thinking of basketball with this, and I think there's so many parallels with basketball and rock bands, which I've talked about a million times. But George's inability to realize that he won the lottery by being with these two guys, I always get annoyed by stuff like that, and I shouldn't. Because you know, you're, it's,

you're the hero in your own story every time. And at some point, especially when you've had all the success, it's natural to think, oh, I could do this. I don't need these guys. But for him not to realize just day to day who he was with and, you know, but then, but then the way they regarded him was basically like, it's a job. You're a guitarist. You're just supposed to be kind of like, be like Ringo. And then all of a sudden, a beat will emerge or something feels like the beginning of a song

and he's just got to figure it out on the fly. All right, let me help. He's just here to help. And his demeanor never changed and he kind of has to be that way, right? I mean, so I would say that it seems like Ringo is the person who feels like I won the lottery, even though he's an amazing drummer and all that. But I won the lottery, even though he's an amazing

drummer and all that. But like, I've won the lottery with these three guys. I don't think that he just looks at it like that. Harrison is in this different position because, I mean, you know, I, well, I do think that he certainly sees those other two guys. Like he's, he's always worried that, that he's a step below them when their solo records come out, I mean, Plastic Ono Band is an amazing record, not because of the songwriting, but because of just the bizarre honesty, just like the relentlessly brutal sort of self-analysis Lennon does on this record. Lyrically, that is just really a strange thing to an unexpected thing to hear in a rock record.

The McCarty solo records, I guess if you look like when you start getting the band on the run, those are very good albums. But All Things Must Pass is the best of the initial solo albums. Now it's a triple record and that probably is too long. Like if it was a double record, it would really be solid. But the sense that you could argue that they were holding him back, because they don't see that material. He's trying out these songs for Let It Be. Some of the songs are ready. All Things Must Pass is ready to go if they want to do it and they just they just they don't see it as i think maybe

they see it as sort of in some ways a step backwards like it's getting back to a simpler kind of of songwriting and they're like well we're trying to i mean you know mccartney is always very conscious he's like well this sounds rote or this sounds corny. You're like, we can't, this chord can't be the predictable way these chords go. So the kind of just like the simple, almost like, it's kind of like Oasis-like music that Harrison is making. I mean, that's, you know, and they're not, they're not, that just doesn't, it means less to them, you know? Can I do a forced basketball analogy?

Sure. It's a little like James Harden on Durant and Westbrook versus like the Chris Bosh example. Like Chris Bosh, like ultimate third guy, right? Robert Parrish, ultimate third guy in the NBA. The guy who, he knows he's never going to be the best player in the league,

but really understands his role, understands how lucky he is, and he's just additive. Harden, you could make a case like at some point, if they hadn't traded him when they did, would have had that George Harrison moment where I'm like, I'm not playing all I can play. That's my Forrest basketball music analogy. I watched this thinking that these guys didn't see it in him, which was another revelation. I don't think they thought he was that special.

I thought they thought he was special for everything they'd created, but ultimately replaceable. Whereas McCartney never would have said, oh, if Lennon leaves, we'll just get so-and-so. That never happens. But the fact that they thought they could replace George makes me think they didn't really think he was that as talented as he turned out to be there's there's a book written by jeff

emmerich who was like the engineer for a lot of the beatles uh material and and he also is in this book like pretty dismissive and critical of harrison like there are lines in this book like oh like george got the song right on the first take a rarity for him like they they they don't they that they're that within kind of the like the bubble of the beatles um the perception of george seemed less than the way it was perceived by the world at large who generally i think saw him um as you know uh like a like a real central cog in this like i mean just like the hypothetical of harrison leaving the band and eric clapton making a record with them like that's that's a real kind of mind-blowing yeah well it is and it also it's like so would it be would there

would there be co-writes between lennon and McCartney and Clapton? Would it have been like seven songs that are Lennon, McCartney, and then Clapton's music? Would it be a bluesier record? It would have to be. I mean, it would have to be bluesier than the direction they were going. Well, you kind of had that sense when Billy Preston comes in, which is another thing we should talk about.

He pops in at the perfect time kind of for the recording sessions, but also for the movie. It's like this new character comes in. It's like, oh, cool, this guy, new person to hang out with. And he's got this infectious, amazing energy. They shoehorn him in. All of a sudden, it's additive. And then you hear the stuff that he's playing and you're like wow this is cool this actually really adds stuff to the songs and leading to John like seriously asking should we add him to the band should we make

him the fifth Beatle and then they realize immediately they would cause all these problems but I knew that stuff but I didn't really know it was as dramatic as them actually wondering if he should join the band. I always thought that was apocryphal. It would have been nice if he had talked a little bit more. He doesn't talk that much when he's there. He's intimidated. He's with the greatest

band of all time. Yeah, but they were friends back from Hamburg, they said, because he was playing with Lil Richard. So when they met each other, they were all the same. And in fact, I would guess when they met each other, it was the same and in fact i would guess when they met each other it was probably like i wish we were playing with little richard too like so i i mean i think he's intimidated a little bit by the cameras it looks like like sort of like what the hell is going on here like you're making a record but this is like there's 20 cameras in here. You know, it's a... He rips off about 200 cigarettes in a half hour. But I don't know, they needed his energy. I thought he really helped.

And it made me wonder, like, even just him coming in and the stuff he added to a couple of their songs, if the band had stayed together for the next couple of years, right? I feel like that would have been the evolution of it, almost like a TV show, when it's like, all right, season six, now we're adding so-and-so. I think they would have started

doing that, especially as music kept evolving and new things were happening. I think they just would have kept grabbing people. Well, you kind of look at that either way. I mean, like, so the Rolling Stones, they would often have people come on stage with them. Like, Tina Turner would come up and sing with them or whatever, you know. Outside of Billy Preston playing on the rooftop, it's like, people didn't play with the Beatles. Like, they didn't do that. Like, they were like, we, you know, we will do this. We're just us. So I don't know if they would have... I mean, I guess it's an interesting idea that they just sort of become like this musical machine that just adds whatever parts that they have. My favorite song on this record is I Got a Feeling, and he does add to that song for sure. It would be a different song without it um i one thing that was also i noticed about it is in the past

people would always say about the movie you know let it be it was like they hate each other they're fighting but then when billy preston comes in they're all in their best behavior actually they were in pretty good behavior the whole time 100 they were never there was you know like the they're very i mean even like when like george is like gonna quit the band he's like i'll see you around the clubs like you know um that's the other thing they obviously will make in this record are working pretty normal hours they're like working nine to five or ten to six or something but they're also going out at night because they come back and i can't remember who it was maybe it never specifically says but like John Lennon saw a band

and he's like, they're better than canned heat. And George is like, there was only four of them though, wasn't there normally five? So they're obviously going out to these shows around town. Yeah. It's just, it's a. And Gwynn Johns was late a couple of times because he was probably out.

One thing I forgot to mention with the George thing, and I really do think this is a thing that happens and it's not just with music, but him going into that band when he did and just being around those guys, like you talked about how his first solo album, how good it was. You know, I, I do think there's some osmosis that goes on sometimes with this stuff and it could be, it could be music, it could be sports, it could be acting. You know, you end up on the right, I don't know, movie with the right two actors and you lead that experience and you're just better at it. And I do wonder with, with George, like, man, to be with those two guys.

I mean, how many. No, he says that in the third one. At one time he's talking to John, he's like, you always told me to do it this way. And then John was like, well, it doesn't always work out though. But it was right. How many actual musical geniuses do you think we've had in rock? Well, okay. Do you think it's less than 10?

We have to. In rock, pop music. Okay, okay, okay. We got to establish the parameters. What do we qualify as genius in this conversation like what like what does what does it have to what does the person have to have because i mean like people will throw that term around just constantly i mean i bet if we looked on the internet right now there's probably been 10 people this year who have been classified as a genius in pop music um i think that in all

likelihood i don't know if there's even who knows if any of them are but like so what what are you this year who have been classified as a genius in pop music. Um, I think that in all likelihood, I don't know if there's even, uh, who knows if any of them are, but like, so what, what are you saying? The, the criteria is for being a genius. Innovation ahead of their time. Eternal. eternal. Okay, so you got to be ahead of your time as well. So you can't be a genius within the formal framework of what's happening at the time. You're doing...

Someone like, so like Jimmy Page, for example, I would say he is a genius, but he was working within the framework of what was happening in music at the time. Right, but Eddie Van Halen, I think we would both say is an actual, was an actual musical genius. Sure. Yes. Yeah.

I think Lennon and McCartney were both geniuses. I would say Clapton. Okay. But now, I hate, I know this is just annoying, but like, so are we also, are we splitting the difference between being a genius and a virtuoso? Yeah. Interesting. I don't know. Because I don't know if, I don't know if Clap between being a genius and a virtuoso? Yeah. Interesting. I don't know.

Because I don't know if, I don't know if Clapton is a genius. He's a virtuosic, you know, virtuosic blues player. But wouldn't it be part of it be the, their peers at the time looking at the person going either, I can't believe they're doing that.

Or I know I can't do that. Would seem like that's at least a piece of this. Yeah, I guess that is true. Although, uh, that's, um, I would say that's a slightly lower bar than what I would normally consider a genius. I mean, like I would say someone could have made that argument about say Trent Reznor in the early nineties. I mean, like I would say someone could have made that argument about, say, Trent Reznor in the early 90s. I don't know if I would say he's genius now. I mean, it's like he might be a technical. How about Cobain? Okay. Innovative. He would not have that characteristic, but he does have the ability to be timeless. That would be the intangible part of this.

It would be very easy to list a 100 people who are better at playing guitar than Kurt Cobain, but that's not the thing. That's not the thing. I mean, it's like, you know, like Joe Satriani can play guitar better than Keith Richard. Okay. I mean, there's no question about like, he could play, he could play every song that Keith Richards plays. Keith Richards probably couldn't play any of the songs that Joe Satriani plays without practicing. And yet we would consider Keith a genius and we might be considered like Joe Satriani, a brilliant player. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, you could also there could be someone who's a genius and that actually becomes an impediment.

I mean, when you talk about being ahead of your time, if you truly are ahead of your time, you're not going to succeed. You know, I mean, like some of the ideas in Pixies music, for example, like the early Pixies records are the same ideas that Kurt Cobain uses. But because the Pixies did them in the late 80s, their success hit a certain ceiling that Nirvana way surpassed. So, I mean, it's like how, I know that's a very hard question. I don't know how if I can even answer it. I mean, I would like, are we working from the premise that the Beatles have two geniuses or four?

I think they have two. They have two. Okay. Well, so we didn't talk about the lyrics and, you know, some of the words and how some of that stuff's resonated too. You know, and that's a lot of times the best part about music is

how people interpret the songs and apply them to their own life in whatever way right i would argue the beatles more than any other musician band whatever have probably had their songs impact somebody's life in some way from the words of the songs yeah that's a tricky thing though when you talk about if you talk about interpretation being part of genius because okay there's a no that was like that was a slightly separate argument i mean like there's i think on i think on the second hootie on the blowfish record there's a song called i don't believe in time okay people make fun of hootie the blowfish playing that song if bob dylan has

a song called i don't Believe in Time, it's like a bumper sticker. Or if Jerry Garcia says that, it becomes a way people live their whole life. And it could be the exact same lyrics. It's just that the music, the music does a lot. I mean, you can tell just by the way the Beatles write these songs,

that the lyrics are secondary to them. Like they're just kind of running through things. And like there, I can't remember what, at one point they're just running through a bunch of different words. I think it's when, uh, how about get back?

They changed that one like 10 times. Yeah. So like, so if, if the meaning of get back means a lot to a person, if the, the message to it, uh,

you know, initially it's like a, like a, like a pro immigration song. And by the end, it's not really anything. So if that song means something to, initially it's like a pro-immigration song. And by the end, it's not really anything. So if that song means something to you, it's like you made that happen.

Like they didn't do it. How about Lennon? Lennon gave an interview after that, way after that, when he was talking about Get Back and that song makes him mad because he felt Paul was writing that about him. And he was like, he had some quote where,

I think it was in the Playboy interview where he was like, I felt like as he was singing that, he was looking at Yoko and not the rest of the band. But maybe I might've just imagined that or whatever. And then you watch how they come over

and get back and it's like, that's definitely not about John Lennon. Yes, it is not. It's just like trying to come up with some lyrics that fit. And he's like, I like JoJo. JoJo should be in this song.

I don't know who JoJo is. I'm going to try JoJo a hundred different ways. I mean, they don't, you know, they don't, the Beatles don't remember this stuff the way Beatles fans do. So like John could be, John could very well have believed that. Like after, you know, a bunch of years, he's like, I think they were singing, he was singing that at me, or he hears it again and it seems like it's about him or whatever, you know, it, uh, that, uh, that was, I mean,

I'm always fascinated. Like when they ask Mick Jagger, what his, what, you know, what are the greatest Rolling Stone songs? And he's like, oh, satisfaction. Jumping Jack Flash is popular. Like he just lists the most popular songs. He sees them purely as commodities. Like the idea that they would have some kind of like, like he would never say jigsaw puzzle or something like he would never do

that. Like it would never, it would never occur to him for that to be a great song regardless of like how he feels about it. And they're the same way. I think, I mean, I don't.

Don't you think some of that has to do with just, he's been playing those songs for 50 years and now he knows those songs through the concert performances and how fans respond to them. I know, but if somebody asks you what are the favorite things you've ever written, you probably wouldn't mention just the five most popular things. I mean, maybe you would. I wouldn't. I mean, if somebody asked me, I definitely wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah. No, but if I, but if I was reading those things for 50 years and I was reading 20 pieces a night and certain ones got response, I think that would eventually color in my brain. Or the fact that those songs are popular, if you keep doing them over and over again, maybe you understand why that.

I mean, Tony Iommi says he never gets sick of playing Iron Man. He's played it thousands of times. He's like, I never get bored with it, you know? Well, that's one of the fun things that's happened with Billy Joel where the songs that people love now are completely different than the songs, like his top five now are totally different than the top five somebody would have in 1978.

Yeah. You know, like Vienna was not considered one of his best songs and now I think it is. That's true because now it's like, oh, you know, as I think it is. That's true. Because now it's like, oh, you know, as as I think doing this, this residency that he did at Madison Square Garden, it's like, everybody wanted to see Billy Joel has seen him now. But he was very easy to go see him, you know, so

now, the there's still an audience for it. But the audience is now the repetition of people who have experienced sort of the obvious songs. But young people too. It's young people that discovered them in rom-coms and, you know, whatever. Like Vienna is a very famous moment in 13 Going on 30, the Jennifer Garner movie. And I think that reignited that song. And now it's like, you know, who would have guessed that?

That will just happen. I mean, recently, like the Mountain Goats had some old song become part of a TikTok video. And like the Mountain Goats almost ended up on Saturday Night Live because of this old song that was like kind of reappropriated by somebody. And now it's just that. That was Fleetwood Mac too with Dreams.

That was crazy. Like it did this whole Fleetwood Mac thing. I'm interested to see what happens with the Beatles over these next few weeks. And as we said, there's been a Beatles renaissance at least once a decade. The first, going back to the early 80s when John died, that started then and it was done in a totally different way.

We had, I think it was eight track tapes back then, but it was a little harder to mobilize, but people were probably listening to their old albums, whatever. And then in the nineties, it meant something different. 2000, same thing. Um, and they've always kind of been around. I'm fascinated by Paul and Yoko were two of the executive producers on this, right? And I assume they had input. And one of my conspiracy theories that I don't even believe in, but I'm just going to mention to you, and people seem really happy in this, right? Like McCartney's super happy this whole time. There had to have been sessions where nobody was happy for like three hours or two hours, or it was just everybody was surly? I just, they're together day after day. They're tired. It's only a couple points where, you know, one of them was McCartney's just so frustrated by George, you know, and you can just kind of see.

He's like, ah, fuck this guy. I got to fucking explain it to him again, blah, blah, blah. There's another part where they're talking about how they can't sleep. But I do wonder, is this, do you think they asked Jackson to take anything out? I guess I would be pretty surprised if they would have asked him to take something out or if he would have. Maybe he would have.

I mean, I think that he probably said that, like, I've been looking, going through this footage, it is not an accurate depiction of what that movie made it seem like. You seem like you got, you know, and I think that particularly McCartney, like he does not want the lasting memory to be that he and John Lennon did not like each other. Which is something John Lennon seemed very focused on keeping alive until he died. Well, because he didn't think he was going to die. Like he's still a relatively young person. It's like, it is, you know, there's all of these things. It's like, if John Lennon isn't killed, like do they reunite at Live Aid? That's possible. I mean, that's the kind of thing they cared about.

So they could have reunited there. Would it have been possible to make an MTV unplugged session with the Beatles? Like how then like that would be like all these things that could have happened if John Lennon had lived and they don't and they all seem unlikely. And yet I don't know how unlikely they would be when you look at some of the things that I mean, the idea of Ringo Starr kind of touring around with this all star band that did not seem like something he would have done. Well, think how many unlikely things have we seen in music the last 40 years. Like the Eagles getting back together. I don't think anybody would have predicted. I got to say, I do think Lennon, he's one of the few people that I could see him being like, fuck that, never.

Like had he not been shot. Because that really was his attitude for 10 years. He really kind of had disdain for people that thought the Beatles should get back together. And he was like, that was one part of my life. I moved on to a different part of my life. It's not my fault if you think we should get back together.

I've already done that. I did that. I was in my teens and my 20s. I don't want to play music with those people anymore. I've moved on. I'm now doing this. And I don't know if he ever would have snapped out of that. I was in my teens and my 20s. I don't want to play music with those people anymore. I've moved on. I'm now doing this. And I don't know if he ever would have snapped out of that. See, I think he would have for, okay, here's what I think.

And here again, I don't know anything that I know anything. Impossible to say. I think John Lennon was extremely sick about talking about the Beatles to journalists. And I think that when he was interviewed, he took on an especially kind of antagonistic position. Jack White was the same way for a while, that anytime you asked him a question that he felt was all leading or an attempt to get him to sort of talk about

what you wanted to talk about, he would kind of just kind of bristle and get upset. I think in a larger sense, John Lennon would have seen reuniting the Beatles as less of a big deal than we would have. I mean, you know, that time on Saturday Night Live when Lorne Michaels offers them this check and George Harrison shows up. Like, they all thought that was hilarious. And I think and supposedly, I don't know if I believe this, but the claim is that by chance that was a night that McCartney and Lennon. No, Lennon says that. There's an interview where he tells the whole story.

Yes. And they made a movie about it, but there, somebody once later said like, there's some kind of problems with the timing of this or whatever, but like, like, like the idea that if they would have been able to get there and somehow contact Ringo, that seems like something they would have done. It would have been a very memorable thing. So the idea of them reuniting, I think probably would have been less of a big deal than we think it would have been. So I think John Lennon, I think I, I, my argument or prediction or whatever

this would be speculation is that if John Lennon had lived, I do think there would have been a Beatles performance sometime between 1980 and 2000 at Live Aid or something. Or there was something I think that probably would have happened or, or, you know, if, if they would have all been around, I guess George Harrison was already dead, but like for like the, like the September 11th show, if they had been, you know, we are the world I think is a possibility. They, yes, I think that they would have,

that would have been a situation where they all might have sung and it would be like the Beatles are back or whatever, you know, they're playing on the same song. Uh, although McCartney's not there, is he? Did he, did he do the Bob Geldof one? Yeah. McCartney's not in We Are The World. Yeah. I don't, I don't know if he's, if the, if like he, it seems like Ringo would have definitely been like in the Bob Geldof one. It just seems like very like that. Do they know it's Christmas or whatever? It seems like Ringo would have definitely been like in the Bob Geldof one. Do they know it's Christmas or whatever? It seems like he would have died. But I don't know that one as much. I was not really into that thing.

I mean, not famine relief, but just the music at the time. One of the reasons the Beatles, yeah, I just think there's nobody like them, is just the arc was perfect. When it ended, they left everybody wanting more, right? It even was probably two years earlier. And there's been a couple of bands like this over the years. I feel like for me, the police, the police weren't as big as the Beatles,

but I feel like the police were the same way. It was so abrupt. You know, some people feel that way about Van Halen. There's been ones where it's like five years, six years. Oh man, I wish we'd gotten eight out of them. But for the Beatles, I think it's really helped them that we only got those years out of them. It's a huge advantage. Okay. So like Gladwell has this book out now about Paul Simon. Yeah.

And he's been making, I've heard these interviews with him where he's making the argument that Paul Simon is like the greatest songwriter of the last half of the 20th century. And one of his big arguments is, is, is how prolific he was over time. And he compares him to Hank Aaron, you know, um, that's not how it is with music. It was music. It's actually the opposite. The reason the Beatles are so great is because they did all that in the smallest window of time. Like, it's not, time. Like it's not like sports where being good over a long period of time is better than being great for a while.

The reason in sports that works is because like you watch Tom Brady over a long period of time and that's impressive. It's not like we go on Spotify and watch one game of Tom Brady to play. And that's our favorite game we watch. It's like, that's not how it is. The fact that like the Beatles did all that in such a short period of time is, I mean,

of the many sort of incredible things about them, that is right up there. I mean, it is such a small like framework it's uh you know anytime i ever feel like oh i got like i i'm tired or whatever sometimes i'll just think to myself it's like well god obviously this never happened to the beatles they were like making a record right away like they would have never done that they're like let's go back in the studio now and just keep doing stuff you know and i just um that so that that like that period of time i just you know it's like i will admit in some ways watching this beatles thing kind of bummed me out as much as i liked it why two things one it really made me miss hanging out with some of my friends, like some of the guys in New York, when we would just sit around and talk about the Beatles and talk about music.

And, you know, it's like, I'm looking at the Beatles past and that's like, that's over, you know? And then it's like, so that is also over. That part of my life is over. And that was such an enriching time and that's done. And the other thing is, is after watching this, I listened to the George Harrison solo record, Living in the Material World. And he has that song, you know, Be Here Now. And the idea is like, you gotta, you know, you gotta live in the moment because the past is gone. It's just every moment is gone, you know? So you have to be here now. And it's like, the world is fucking sucks so much now. It's like, it's so bad now.

Everything, culture, everything is bad. And I just, I look back at this period in the late 60s when like this was just happening all the time. It's like the Beatles are making records. Stones are making records. The Zeppelins are making records. We're just about to move into this period of film that's going to be better than any period that film has ever experienced and will ever experience again. Like all these things are happening.

It's just, I watch the Beatles eating toast and stuff. Like all they're having for breakfast is this toast, you know? And it's like, that would never happen to someone like the Beatles now. They would never just have like a plate of toast or whatever. And everything, technically, everything is better now. We have all this stuff. Like every part of life should be better. Like I could probably make my office into a studio that would be as good as some of the places the Beatles recorded in.

But it's just not the same. It's over. And I don't want to be here now. Like I want to be back then. I wasn't even born yet. Like the thing that Beatles are doing, I'm not even born yet when that happens. And, and, uh, how can I be nostalgic for a period I didn't experience? And yet I am. And, and, uh, I don't know. It was just like, you know, I, like I'd watch this during the afternoon. I watch it on Monday afternoon, like Tuesday afternoon, my wife would be like, Oh, so what'd you learn about the Beatles today or whatever? And I would be like, I didn't even want to talk about it. And it's kind of, you know, and then she'd be like, are you, you know, uh,

was it not interesting? And I'd be like, no, it's great. You know, it's like, it's like, it was awesome. I loved it, but I, it just, it just, it, it, it just, it made me feel sad. I felt sad about it. I still feel sad talking about it. Well, you think like the way things are now with an artist, there's so much more thought put into the perception of what you're doing versus just what you're doing. Now you could say like McCartney had that perception back then, or it's like,

Hey, we have 21 days. Our backs are to the wall. Let's try to make some songs. And I might never make music with these guys again. That's it. That was there. It wasn't like he was talking with like his team about, Hey, so I, you know, everything was kind of haphazard, which was, I thought one of the cool, they ended up on a fucking roof, you know, it's cause two other things fell through and it's

like, ah, what about the roof? All right. You know, and, and, and the roof happens. And I think there's a haphazardness to this that I'm with you. I thought was really cool and probably doesn't exist anymore in that way. Yeah. I don't know. It's I'm sure it's an imaginary thing. Like I'm sure that people at that period were like, ah, I wish it was the late forties. No, I'm sure they were. It was like the war is over, you know, where we're going back, you know, it's like, you know, everything is different. People are optimistic, you know? Um, I don't, I don't know why it kind of, it kind of bumped me. I mean, I guess I do know, but I'm also conceding because it's like, my life is great now. So my, like I should, I should only be happy, you know? And I think that

I think of myself as a pretty happy person. But as I watched this, I felt sort of like a reminder, was reminiscing about things, you know? Yeah.

Well, the pandemic probably doesn't help. Oh, it's part of it. It's all, I mean, that's... It's easy to go into a funk these days. It's kind of the foundational text for all of these other things,

you know? Yeah. All right. We're wrapping up. So wait, are we going to, are we not going to talk about Georgia and Alabama? No,

we ran out of time. We did. We just did an hour and a half on the Beatles. I got it. I know, but it's all right. Go Georgia, Alabama really quick.

Well, cause here's my thing. I wanted to say, I have this feeling that if Saban plays Georgia twice, he will win the second game. But if he loses this first game, will they not make the playoffs? It now seems possible. I didn't think that was going to be the case, but I think that could very well happen. And so now I have very conflicted feelings about going into this game. Who are you going to root for?

Well, I guess I find myself really now rooting for Alabama because I want them in the playoffs. But, you know, Georgia, they're averaging, they're giving up less than a touchdown a game. They're giving up 6.9 points a game. So if you double how many points they're giving up, they're still the best defense in the country because Clemson's number two at 15. So I think their defense is almost like historically underrated. I think this is maybe one of the, this might be the best modern defense that we have seen. And somehow it's not being perceived in that way. And I'm not sure why. Like everyone concedes they have a great defense, but I, I, I does like, it's incredible.

It's like, they're just not giving up anything. Who would be favored in that game? Who's going to be favored? Uh, it's incredible. It's like, they're just not giving up anything. Who would be favored in that game? Who's going to be favored? Uh, George's favorite. I think George's, I think you're, I think it might've opened it five and a half or six and a half. Jesus. When was the last time Alabama was given, like getting more than a field goal in the

game? Had to be a while. I know. I know. It's pretty crazy. It is. It's, but I, you know, it's, uh, uh, it's going to be an interesting, I mean, there's a,

like last Saturday was interesting to have college football and this Saturday is going to be too. But did you just check out Saturday? No college football for you? I watch, I monitor one game a day. I started between football, between NFL and NBA. I just don't have a lot of bandwidth.

So it's on, but I'm not, I can't get into it. I can't like, it pushes me over this imaginary content tipping point, especially when I have eight hour Beatles documentaries to watch. That's true. The Beatles thing, like, while I feel it's the right length, it like didn't make it easy to watch. I know.

I mean, it's really intimidating. Yeah. Yeah. All right. It was good to see you. Happy holidays. Good to see you. Thanks for coming out.

All right. yeah alright it was good to see you happy holidays good to see you thanks for coming out alright thanks to Chuck and thanks to Peter Schrager and thanks to nephew Kyle aka Kyle Creighton the producer of this podcast we'll be back

on Sunday night with Kez see you then I don't have I don't have I don't have I don't have I don't have I don't have

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