The Bill Simmons Podcast - Round 1 Playoffs With Haralabos Voulgaris (Ep. 204)

Episode Date: April 24, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by old NBA buddy Haralabos Voulgaris to discuss Kawhi's MVP case (5:00), the importance of durability (10:00), Isaiah Thomas's improved play (14:00), James Harden's defense (20:00), Shane Battier's advanced stats (27:00), LeBron's injury luck (34:00), Blake Griffin's power forward style (40:00), the Warriors' "disease of more" (45:00), the Bucks-Raptors toss-up series (48:00), Joe Ingles on the Clippers (55:00), Giannis's rise (1:04:00), the '01 Lakers' dominance (1:13:00), and the return of Austin Rivers (1:17:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the BS Podcast brought to you by SeatGeek, our presenting sponsor since 1981. Find the best tickets for Caps Penguins, Celts Bulls, Wiz Hawks, Rangers Round 2, any MLB game, Hamilton, maybe even Game 5, Clips Jazz, Haral Bob's thinking about it. You name it, I have SeatGeek on my phone. It's by far the easiest way to shop for the best tickets thanks to their revolutionary grading system. Buy and sell tickets.

Just two taps on your phone. Two taps. Everything fully guaranteed. Try it out. Download the SeatGeek app today. Or go right to SeatGeek.com. We're also brought to you by The Watch. That's where you can find The Ringers, Chris Ryan, and Andy Greenwald

talking pop culture on Mondays and Thursdays. If you love The Leftovers, you definitely want to hear their latest pod with Leftovers creator Damon Lindelof. Subscribe to The Watch wherever you get podcasts. Check out The Ringer NFL show because it's draft week and Robert Mays, Mike Lombardi, Kevin Clark have you covered before, during, and after the draft. And finally, check out theringer.com. We were loaded today, including a slew of NBA pieces. Kevin O'Connor did the premature playoff awards and Sean Fantasy found the courage to be the only writer on the internet who doesn't love

watching Russell Westbrook and thinks his play is counterproductive and it is the most we're going to talk about to Haralba about this in a second the most polarizing topic dating back to 2011 when we had Grantland in six years Westbrook is the most polarizing topic I can ever remember in the office yep more polarizing than TV shows, movies, anything. Anyway, you will find at least one NBA piece from me on TheRinger.com this week. Maybe two. Coming up, Herala Bob Valgueras, our old friend. Here comes Pearl Jam. Well, the people are asking for it.

They're saying, where's Haral Bob? Where is he? He used to come on the podcast for years. I want to know what to think about the MVP. I want to know who's going to win the NBA playoffs. And he was MIA, and now he's here. Haral Bob Valgaris. I want to know what to think about the MVP. I want to know who's going to win the NBA playoffs. And he was MIA, and now he's here. Haral Bob Valgaris, one of our favorites.

How are you? I'm good. Who did you have, just out of curiosity, for MVP? You had Kawhi, correct? Yeah, I had Kawhi. That's a tough one. I'm pretty happy with it, I think. I mean, not that I have a vote.

But if I did have a vote i at first i usually don't really pay much attention to mvp i think it's kind of a first of all what did i mean careful it's the highlight of my life voting for it every year i love voting for mvp yeah usually i don't really pay much attention because this year was so interesting i thought there's so many different ways you could go with it and there's so many different arguments you could argue one to four i don't think there's ever been an mvp where you could do one. You could argue one to four. I don't think there's ever been an MVP where you could do one to three, let alone one to four. Yeah. I mean, you probably could make it.

There's been a couple. Just not this century. Sure. There hasn't been a four-person race like this. Since I've been following basketball. Since you've been into it. Yeah, for sure. So I went Kalai.

I think people discount his defense. People discount how efficient he is on offense. Just having to, he's the only player who has to defend the other team's best option on offense usually now there's lots of arguments you could make against kawaii like he rests doesn't play that many minutes plays on a really good team but yeah i went kawaii you were on the kawaii train a couple years before it became cool yeah like 2013 you were into but you're even earlier your models and

stuff because you were you were gambling on the nba for years and years your models always favored two-way players right a little bit yeah i don't know if they favor two-way players they just realize how important a two-way player is kawaii definitely an example then also just the efficiency and the ability to do different things in terms of where you're getting your points from how many times i mean he doesn't turn the ball over very much doesn't really do anything bad on offense right like if kawaii has a bad game offensively shooting which he almost never does he doesn't do anything else bad so you know it's not like carmelo has a bad game on offense it's just he's a complete zero because he's not probably not defending very well he's probably not rebounding he's probably not you know getting very many

steals or anything like that kawaii does all that uh another guy that we were probably pretty far ahead on was Paul George I think it's another example of that Paul George is someone that I liked for a long time before he became really really good he's up and now he's overrated no he's he's definitely overrated no way I don't I mean I you're like oh he's so he's like he's so inconsistent Paul George is so inconsistent it's like oh he's so he's so inconsistent paul george is so inconsistent it's like oh i mean the year that he came back from breaking his leg in two yeah that's true i mean that is the one case for paul he did break his leg in half yeah i mean that was the most horrific that was a pretty horrific incident and then he comes back from that early which

people didn't think he'd come back when he did and he did come back and yeah okay he wasn't great when he came back as good as he was before but he's performed the playoffs every year he's a great player i don't think he was great in in uh the second time they played miami yeah the first year like great basically he was granger's protege right and then the second year granger was out and he stepped up in a way that i don't think anyone was prepared for but you were prepared you were on the bandwagon they played the Knicks, that playoff series, and the Knicks were pretty big favorite. Yeah, they were like a 55-win team.

Yeah, 70% favorite to win that series, I think, something like that, roughly. And it was just a joke. I thought that was the biggest joke ever. Yeah. I think the Pacers beat them four games to two and beat them handily. I remember you and I were emailing during that stretch,

and you were delighted. Like once or twice a year, there would be a situation like that where the public team just skewed. Sure, and the Knicks are like the perfect public team because it's New York and everyone thinks they're so good. And people still think they're good.

Like this year, Derrick Rose was talking about them being a super team. Right. That gives you an idea of how skewed the perception is. Well, he did make the playoffs he was at game four yesterday wearing a jogging suit with his kid sitting courtside french fries yeah i saw that my my one gripe with paul george and i think you saw in in this cav series even though he had to do a lot i don't know if he's a high volume offensive player i think if he's your second best player

that's great but i like i don't think he has the ceiling that jimmy butler has jimmy butler i mean we're going to talk about how fred hoiberg ran him into the ground yesterday but jimmy butler he can run the whole offense through him and i feel like there's a level he can get to that paul george is basically just a 40 shooter who especially in the last five minutes i feel like i can stop paul george whereas. Whereas Jimmy Butler, I feel like he can do more things. Sure, that's possible. I mean, I definitely going into this year and maybe even during the year,

if I was asked who I liked better, Paul George or Jimmy Butler, I would say Paul George easily. Really? But I've been rethinking it in the playoffs a little bit. I don't know. I might have underestimated Jimmy Butler a little on offense.

Interesting with Jimmy Butler, he doesn't look like he's nearly as tall as paul george because he's not as long but they're not that different in height i mean there's like an inch or two between the two of them in height and jimmy's got that that hairdo that gives him a few more inches too right um very smart it's a good dr jay in the aba he was 6 11 but that might be why his height is now that i think about that might be why they're only there's only a couple because they might have measured it up a little bit yeah but um possibly i mean i think a lot of it has to do with just i mean i i think paul george's has a lot more upside if he's in the right situation i think like jimmy butler's playing probably about as good as he's playing he's probably not going to play any better and it's not like paul george is a young player and he's

going to improve a lot but um but his situation might improve yeah his situation on the celtics with isaiah being able to carry the offensive load isaiah can carry and then paul george doesn't have to totally worry about that and can kind of fit in i think he would be really good maybe yeah i think also just he doesn't for i think since his injury or he i think he would be really good maybe yeah i think also just he doesn't for i think since his injury or he's not he's not really a big foul drawer he doesn't really drive a lot like he complains how he never gets true never gets any foul calls but he also takes a lot of mid-range jumpers and he takes a lot of settles yeah and shots like that you're not going to get you know unless you're like you're not going to get a foul call on that or

shooting foul on that so um that's something where maybe the right situation or the right offense or the right coach could maybe bring that out of him possibly he's the guy i look at when i look at jaylen brown who i've had a roller coaster ride with this year who i loved i was all in and then he hit the rick wall and now he can't even play in this playoff series but if you look at his stats same situation as george came out early um super athletic kind of thrown into the water yeah his stats offensively are basically the same as paul george rookie year if you look at their per 36 it's like almost exact interesting and defensively i think he has a chance to have the same kind of upside maybe paul's you know maybe going to be a little bit stronger i don't know

how jaywin's body is going to go sure but Paul George wasn't Paul George for a couple years there. It really wasn't until Granger went down when he got thrown into the fire. And I wonder, like, that's why it's so hard for me to judge this Jalen Brown pick because they're such a good team, especially with rookies. If they don't have it, what do you do? Like, they're trying to get the one seed. There's games with rookies where it's just like, oh, this guy's just running around like a chicken with his head cut off the rookie wall is probably the most

underrated thing in basketball i mean every player hits the rookie wall no question i mean maybe lebron you can make the case that lebron didn't we can't count lebron with any conversation about basketball in our model we actually had we had like a rookie model which wasn't very good but even as as bad as it was one of the things we had was like, if one of our rookies projected to be about as good as LeBron, we knew our model was just messed up because there's only one LeBron. That's interesting. It's like Tyreek Evans' rookie year.

He had like, his rookie year was quite good. Yeah. And it compared very favorably to LeBron. He was like 26 and 5. Yeah, I remember looking at that and I was like, there's something wrong with this. I don't care what his stats are there's no way there should lebron needs we need to figure out a way to make our model account for the fact that lebron is lebron and everyone else isn't the models that the public uses i think the biggest flaw with them is they don't account for durability and minutes yeah you know like you'll see some of the oh but his pr is

where javel mcgee has 48 pr he's well he's playing 13 minutes a game yeah you can't extend that stuff out i mean that's the one thing that's but you know within that you'll find some players who are playing just a few minutes a game who are quite good and then giving the opportunity when they're given but so there's you kind of that's why you can't just be a model or you have to like actually watch the games and yeah and sometimes bench guys are some common sense. Yeah. Bench guys sometimes are really good in little seven minute spurts.

Other guys are better when they play 35 minutes. Yeah. And it's hard for them to just play two seven minute spurts and that's all they do. Sure. You know, especially some shooters. What do you feel like the internet has caught up to some of the

intelligence you had five years ago? Oh yeah, for sure. I would think so. It feels like the last two caught up to some of the intelligence you had five years ago? Oh, yeah, for sure. I would think so. Feels like the last two years especially. I never even knew what the hell offensive rating was. I just didn't understand it. And now, you know, I wrote my NBA book in, like, 2009. I didn't have the benefit of really any of these advanced stats.

And even I had a whole section about how overrated oscar's triple double was because of the pace and i just had to use like field goal attempts look at all these field goal attempts that year now it's like we can really cut it down it's funny though looking at those offensive ratings which i think is a little bit of a better indicator than per yeah but like if you go back in history it's pretty good it's the guys that are in the 120s are the right guys you know what i mean sure and then even ahead of all of that stuff you have like the super quiet part of the internet where you have like the people who go to sloan every year and write on blogs who are doing stuff that that is that is pretty pretty much super advanced i would say i mean it's still

there's still a lot of there's a lot of dark holes and there's a lot of weaknesses in some of those models but yeah it's caught up for sure they're the stuff is really good stuff on the internet's pretty good especially if you know where to look i love this stuff i mean i've always for the last few years i love like the field goal percentages of where guys shoot in the floor like marcus smart who's one of the worst shooters i've ever seen he's good on corner threes. And I watched that on the eye test. I'm just like, oh, he's in the corner. He's going to make this. But it's nice to have the numbers that back that up to be like, oh, if he's in these two spots, he's really good.

And I think teams probably about, well, probably they were hiding it for a while. But I would say 2012, 2013 really started to look at location. And, oh, our offense does does this this guy's shot is open you know if we play the four he's open in this spot let's go look at all the guys in the league who are good at that spot and then they go and they sign them it's funny the people had to give you an idea how far behind some teams were like the the lakers in the year they lost to the Celtics, were encouraging open corner threes from the Celtics, who shot, I think, 1.4 points. That's the Posey house.

Yeah, Posey house, Pierce, Ray Allen. You could see it every time there was an open corner three. Lamar Oden would be streaking down the court for a fast break that never happened because the ball was going in. And it's funny because I've told this story a few times, but I remember reading like Phil Jackson saying something about, yeah, we don't take those corner threes because they lead to fast breaks. And I was like, oh, that might make sense.

And so I watched every corner three that was taken in the NBA and charted, you know, did it lead to a fast break or didn't it? And it actually was the case that corner threes led to less fast breaks than other shots from the three-point line. It's almost like phil jackson doesn't know what he's talking about right it's interesting because that was like the first idea that i was like hmm and then the year memphis was beating golden state two games to one and i forget who is i guess was it i guess atlanta was the leading team and they were losing and he was like oh can someone tell me how the three-point shooting teams are doing in the playoffs right now he tweeted it right how's it going and that was kind of because people really thought oh okay

yeah look this you can't people still said that you can't win being a three-point shooting team now in the nba like if you're not shooting threes you're not even competing at all when you watch a team like houston is that were you kind of waiting for somebody to do this for years and years yeah i remember even talking to daryl about it like sloan and i was and just thinking like this team is ruining basketball's model like it breaks the model for sure yeah because you know their three-point rate was like climbing high i think this year their three-point rate which is a ratio of three-point shots at two-point shots and and free throws is like at in the forward like they're off the chart like literally off the chart like if you make the

chart and you don't they're completely in the top right corner and everyone else is somewhere in the middle and so the game does become more random for sure um and that's what the celtics love sure and the celtics it sounds it sounds like too pat to say this but it really does come down most of the time with them whether they make three-pointers or not. Last night was an aberration because I think they were like nine for 35 or something from three. Like they couldn't make them, but they still won. Normally when they miss from three, it's a disaster because their high volume, if they're under 35%, that's when I'm always like, uh-oh, this is going to end up bad. It's a trouble.

But Isaiah just played well in Hoiberg, coached one of the worst games in the last couple years that was a crazy game yeah i couldn't believe they did it in at the beginning of the fourth quarter because isaiah had four fouls for basically the whole second half and there was one time in the it was late third quarter beginning of the fourth quarter when butler got switched on him and he just backed him down and isaiah wasn't gonna guard him foul foul him, anything. So Jimmy Butler basically just backed down and did a little two footer. And I'm like, oh my God, they figured it out. And then they never did it again. That's what's interesting about the playoffs is watching these adjustments these coaches make or don't make or the players make. In the first half, the Celtics were liberally switching that

small to small pick and roll. And so that's what the bulls ran and then in the second half they fought through marcus smart fought through one switch and isaiah didn't have to guard him because they fought through the switch but it wasn't really a good pick so now the small to small maybe you can make an argument wasn't working but then uh stevens put isaiah thomas on zips. And Zipzer was just standing. I know that's a powerful word. He doesn't move though. That's perfect for Isaiah. But he could set a screen.

And he could probably set a screen that's, you know, decent enough where it's going to be tough to fight through that. And now you can get the switch you wanted. They never even tried. I mean, they just stuck Zipzer in the corner. And Isaiah had to do nothing. And I think that was the turning point in the game because it allowed him to play offense.

It allowed him not to worry about foul trouble. And then, yeah, it was interesting. And then he didn't play Lopez enough. He didn't play Lopez at all in the fourth quarter. Lopez kills us. On the offensive. I mean, that's the one thing that's interesting. It's like, okay, will we really beat this team with our rebounding?

They're going small. What are we going to do? Let's go small. It's like the Celtics went small, but the Celtics were already small. Like they didn't, they played Amir Johnson, but then they would take him out.

It wasn't like he played like the whole first quarter anyways. And so they never were a big team to begin with. It's not like they always started Amir and they never started Amir and Horford anyways. So it's like, are they really going small? I don't, I never,

I probably watch more Celtics this year than any year since 08. Amir hasn't ever really made sense. But for some reason, when he's in there with Horford, there's these couple of these lineups that they're just, their plus minus is fantastic, which is why they do it. Because they rebound. It's the only lineup where they really defensively rebound. But not against the Bulls. And that's why it took them a while to realize like not the series for Amir

which a lot of coaches just nope we're gonna play him it worked all year and then they'll just they're out of the playoffs in this case

they were like not the series for Amir and they went small which is funny because it's almost like professional wrestling like they

you go out of the ring you hope the other guy comes out of the ring yeah come out of the ring come out of here and they went if it's small ball versus small ball, there's only three teams that can hang with the Celtics.

And Chicago's not one of them. Yeah, I mean, there's probably more than three teams, but Chicago isn't one of them. Houston, Golden State, Cleveland, who else? That's it. The Celts can hang with all those teams if you're going small on small. But as soon as the variable switches, they're in trouble. I mean, it just depends.

This is a bad matchup because for lots of reasons like not having a point guard if you're chicago is pretty big right because explain the whole thing about how if you went wade and butler is your back or the trouble that leads who's gonna guard isaiah when that happens jimmy butler who's exhausted in the fourth quarter and yeah can't chase Isaiah around. Isaiah in this series is usually a liability because he's really bad on defense. Not a liability totally, but on defense he's a liability. But because they have no point guards,

they have to play Isaiah Cannon to guard him. And now Isaiah Cannon on offense is, he might have a good game, but he's probably not going to have a great offensive game. He's not a good offensive player. He turns the ball over a lot, doesn't shoot very well. I got excited every time he took a shot. Yeah.

Please, keep shooting, Isaiah Kaden. And I'm sure they got excited when he didn't turn it over. Yeah. Oh, he got a shot off. That's good. Because he's not up to that level at this point. First of all, he's not a primary ball handling point guard. He's not a point guard.

He's been a shooting guard most of his NBA career when he's played. He's always been the guy off the ball, not with the ball. So that's the reason why. Now, could Wade guard? Could you ask Wade to guard Isaiah Thomas for a little bit and maybe give Jimmy G. Butler a little bit of a break? He didn't sign up for that. Probably not.

So what do you do? Wade didn't even sign up to help them out yesterday in game four for some reason. Where was he? It's not like he's done. This is not somebody who should be at the end of his career i can't believe that he couldn't have a bigger game than that he might be battling something i'm not sure maybe yeah he might have a lot of uh attrition i watched

um the houston oklahoma city game yesterday and it looked to me like harden was like on drugs or something i was like what's wrong with Harden right but then after the game he said he hurt his ankle he hurt his ankle in game three and that's why he was so you just never really know unless the player says there's something because Harden was terrible for the entire game he was awful not just terrible but it looked like he didn't want to play and it makes sense if he had an ankle injury because he not that he didn't want to play it's just he was hurting he was laboring they used him almost as a as a decoy it was i mean it was weird he would first of all he would sit there on defense he's already guarding roberts not having to doing anything but he would just wouldn't even help that

he wasn't even moving at all on defense and then on offense he would get the ball and and he was just deferring he wasn't really when he got it he would he'd settle for a bad shot every once in a while he would drive and drive and bounce it off his knee out of bounds or whatever. I saw what you said on Twitter about you'd think that it's indisputable Houston has a better supporting cast. And I actually agree with you, but... You want the indisputable. Indisputable.

I do think OKC has good players that they have put in a position of fail for most of this year. The way basketball is played when you're basically saying to just about everyone on your team, you're here to help Russ. Oh, he needs you now.

That's not how it works. You can't do it that way. Oladipo is somebody to me that I think could be a really good offensive player especially against second units. That's one thing where they could play him against second units more and let him carry it a little bit. I don't know why they're playing Norris Cole.

And that helps him because it's giving him confidence. He's getting reps, creating the offense, making plays, and then in crunch time when he's out there with Westbrook, they can actually go to him and he can do something. When you line the teams up and you compare them, I could see how you could make that argument. And some of them maybe arguably are on an isolation or just looking at each individual player alone, better players.

Like Oladipo, probably if you look at him and you had to draft him or whatever, let's assume these players are all unknown players and they're free agents, you'd say probably Oladipo's better than Lou Williams, right? Of course. Oh, but lou williams does one thing really well and that score bass score baskets and draw fouls and get fast and in and the team concept and just not even a team concept they're just better basketball players in this day and age because look that houston team is like the biggest dromerone team ever i mean all they do is shoot threes and draw those like chintzy fouls where they're like coming off a screen but that works in today's game you can't

play basketball like ryan anderson has had a terrible playoff series but him being two or three feet behind the three-point line and still being a threat that's a valuable offensive commodity mcdermott do that for the thunder though you're just not going to respect them as much i don't think he's not as good a three-point shooter as ryan and even ryan anderson on open three like i did a thing where i just compared like open three-point shots right yeah players wide open on three this isn't a proxy for who's a better basketball player but it is a proxy for who's a better three-point shooter right and it is a better for who's a better it is a good proxy who's a better offensive player um i mean i think the best player shooting threes for Oklahoma City was Oladipo, and he was like sub 30, I forget, but 33, 32%.

Houston had guys that were in the 40s. You had three of them. Yeah, and in today's basketball game, that's a skill that makes you a better basketball player. It creates more lanes for your other players. You get three points when it goes in. It's just better. Hold this thought. I want to keep talking about that that series i want to talk about texture really quick how do we keep this podcast fresh i read a ton of stuff every day including a bunch of magazines on the texture app texture gives me access to hundreds of magazines like

the atlantic new york magazine the new yorker and si all in one place on my tablet or phone with daily recommendations interactive features videos and the Texture app makes it easy to find and enjoy the articles I want to read. It's even searchable, so you can mark what you like, check out back issues, or view bonus content. No wonder it was selected as one of Apple's top 2016 iPad apps. I read just about everything on my iPad. Do you read stuff on your iPad?

No. I love reading on my iPad. Texture has been a godsend. Maybe now I will. Normally Texture, $9.99 a month for access to over 200 magazines. But if you sign up right now at texture.com slash BS, you get a 14 day free trial. What's better than that? Why subscribe to a couple of mags when you can subscribe to all of them? Start your free trial, download the Texture app, go to texture.com slash BS for your 14-day free trial. Who did you think was going to win Oklahoma City versus Houston heading into the series?

Houston. Yeah. I thought Oklahoma City could make some adjustments and cause them some difficulty. Rebounding a defense, right? Yeah. Rebounding defense and Russ could have won this series, I feel like. Sure. And every game, there's been some close games. It's not, as I think about a seven-game series, anything can happen.

But I did think if I had to guess which team would win the series, I would say Houston. What was the biggest surprise in round one for you? Not even like who's winning, but just like something you didn't expect. I didn't expect the Bulls to have that much success with Rondo in the first two games versus Boston. I didn't see that coming. I was there for game one. I can tell you nobody saw it coming. It's not like I sat there and really

studied the series and was like, oh, what am I going to do with this series? But while it was happening, I was kind of like, oh, yeah, this is kind of surprising. That's really disappointing. I'm actually a pretty big Rondo fan at all. That's putting it,

putting it mildly, but he's, he played really well for them in the first two games. And it's kind of disappointing that he got injured because I think it would have made that series a lot more interesting. I wasn't disappointed at all. No, it didn't seem that way.

Um, he definitely knew where all the plays were going. And I will say though, now that you watch Isaiah in game four, look like Isaiah again, how many times during the season did he just rip losses and turn them into wins yeah that's game one the game four isaiah in game one they win game one you know because he did that over and over again this season that's another thing it's like this poor guy is playing under an unrealistic amount of stress yesterday was the first day where he looked like the guy I watched off season.

I just don't understand how, uh, how he was even able to play. Like I get that it's a release and so, but it just must've been so difficult. I can't, I've never lost anyone in my life. Like yet.

I'm pretty like none of my siblings, none of my, I can't imagine. I've never been to a game where the, a guy cried in the pregame intros and then played. I mean, think about how much emotion you have to then just a guy cried in the pregame intros and then played. I mean, think about how much emotion you have to then just get thrown out. You're in a playoff basketball game.

And I definitely think it affected him. It has to have, yeah. And, you know, I think yesterday was the first day there was a little light at the end of the tunnel for him looking like him. The other thing was Smart was just horrendous the whole series. And then in the second half, started doing all that Marcus Smart, how do you even measure this guy with analytics stuff? Like he just does things, you know. Most of the time, you're terrified. He's a no-no-yes guy.

There's no question. He'll do a dumb foul every once in a while. He'll do a dumb pass. He'll lose his confidence. But then he has these moments where he's just there sure in the right spots by the way those are the guys that measure well in analytics really how come it's like the baddie thing like the you know it's it's the guys who do the things that don't get measured in the box score yeah they set good screens they fight through screens they switch when they're

supposed to they help they retreat back to their defender they it's just that stuff measures in in because the other team scores less when they're on the court maybe his team scores a little bit more efficiently so that type of stuff does does measure well and so he's the new baddie is what you're saying i'm just saying is he a song conference panel no not at all but i'm just saying that that that those guys they don't if you don't if you have a guy who does well your team performs well with them when he's on the court but they don't really show up in the box score there's analytics that kind of show that and baddie it was like the leader for that who's the leader now um i don't know i'd have to think about it i suppose there's a couple different guys that are

pretty good i you know someone like beverly probably measures pretty well just because he defends other teams point guards and he does really well against curry there's guys that are that measure well and that analytics loves even more than like chris paul that he measures really really good with the eye test with basic box score statistics and then when the analytics takes a look at him they he's even better chris paul is the triple crown of that he's eye test he's regular metrics and he's advanced metrics he's all three yeah lebron you know there's the really great players measure well in both and then there's players who are kind of underrated i told you i don't count lebron for any of these discussions yeah so he's a robot sent from the future to destroy us what about westbrook where did your analytics have

it's he's probably the most confusing player that we've ever tried to measure with this stuff i mean no there's no basis in history at least in modern statistics since the play-by-play data became available for a player with that high of a usage yeah i mean that like i tried to write that five weeks and everybody's like you hate westbrook it's like i'm just pointing out that nobody's ever hogged the ball like this yeah and so a model would have a lot of difficulty with that they just wouldn't understand what's going on why does why is our upward cap for usage is like 38 or whatever percent this guy's in the 40s and or higher and so that's there's that he isn't that efficient but he gets to the free throw line a lot i don't know it's in our model doesn't think a lot of him i don't

defensively especially i would guess this year he didn't do too well in the model yeah probably not i mean i don't know it's he's a like you said he's very polarizing i love watching him play me too but i'm not sure i would want him on my team if i was if i had a team i don't know i'm not saying i wouldn't i'm just saying i'm not sure that i would that's the crux of the westbrook issue everyone's like love watching him play respect to your guys would you want to play with him no no never i wouldn't but but i love watching him but if he's not on my team his guys seem the guys on his team seem to love him so it's interesting like so it's like stockholm syndrome though that's what happened with kobe i don't know in 2010 because kobe's teammates were like kobe's a great guy i really like him like it was like they'd been brainwashed i don't know man when

he that game against orlando and he no it is true they they were they're in his corner they really do love playing for him it's it's interesting that's like a cult over there though i feel like a little bit oklahoma city yeah maybe a lot of young players they always go for the young yeah elias over they had to trade he's too old he's on to us we got to trade him for another impressionably young guy yeah possibly i think westbrook's incredible and i also think that if somebody's gonna have the ball that much it's impossible for them to win a playoff series i just don't there's literally not one example in the history of basketball that this has led to real success. It doesn't work.

You need five guys. But if you look at that team after they lost Durant. Yes. What path would have led to success? That's the thing. I don't know if this was the best way to do it, but it certainly is the most. I mean, you're not going to win a championship. You're probably not going to get to the conference finals anyways and so your goal is to maximize seats attention whatever this did

it was very smart if we forget that sometimes this is entertainment product too it's not just always all about winning it is about winning but there's going to be lots of years where you're just not going to be able to compete like if you're in the east you're just basically waiting for lebron to get traded to the west sign with him in the west or retire yeah you're not going anywhere probably so what do you do in the interim or frame him for a murder you could do that there's a lot there's there's some nefarious options you could do for a murder um yeah i mean people always ask me these last couple months like where were the celtics in the trade deadline and first of all butler and george were not available because it's both of those teams are going to wait to see if the Lakers have a pick.

I think they were available. I don't think they—I know for a fact Indy wasn't. I know for a fact that they went all in with the Godfather offer and Bird wouldn't even call him back. Jimmy Butler, I think the Bulls— You mean the—oh, okay. I see. Indy just wasn't trading him. It wasn't happening in February. That's a mistake. I would be very surprised if he re-signed with Indy. So here's why I don't think it was a mistake.

Because if the Lakers get a top three pick, now you have two suitors. You play them off each other. I think to me it's... I would say it's a mistake if they waited until the very end of the three. Yeah, you can't do that. But if you and I were running the Bulls or the Pacers, and we're like, oh, the Celtics want Jimmy or Paul, we would meet about it and we would be like,

we can't do it until we find out if the Lakers have that pick. If there's ever a candidate to overpay for a player, it's the Los Angeles Lakers with magic and trying to throw the scent off this whole bus family disaster. You know, if they get the third pick, they'll offer the third pick brandon

ingram more picks whatever but who's this i mean paul george is unrestricted he could just go to lakers for yeah but you don't have to he could just go to lakers for nothing eventually true if well that's the thing that carmelo could have done that year right yeah could have just waited to sign with the knicks and it stays like no no i want it because you want to get paid and they had to give up gallinari and Feller and all these assets. A couple draft picks. How'd that work out for Melo? It worked out terrible.

So Paul George should probably wait. But with the Celtics, back to the point, which is like, I just don't think that they thought the team was good enough and that there wasn't anyone out there unless they could get Butler George, which wasn't on the table. You know, Celtics would be a, would,

would, would be a scary team with, with those two. They would probably, yeah, with one of those two, they would probably be, I mean,

I don't know, Cleveland, everyone's like, oh, their defense, no one's ever played with a defense this bad, but their offense is pretty ridiculous. I mean, they don't know, Cleveland, everyone's like, oh, their defense, no one's ever played with a defense this bad. But their offense is pretty ridiculous. I mean, it's not that they don't care about defending.

They don't really have to. LeBron surrounded by shooters is about as unstoppable as you get it. It's absurd that LeBron in the bench unit is ridiculous. Yeah. It's absolutely ridiculous. I don't know how you stop it. The one thing with LeBron that I think over everything else

that's been the most amazing is the injury luck I've never seen anything like it like Blake Griffin's been hurt 11 times I don't think that's luck though I don't think that's luck just one time roll an ankle or just anything it's almost impossible

his skill is he's also durable. He's the most durable player since Kareem. Sure. And Kareem, I mean, even Kareem broke his hand once punching Kent Benson. Like LeBron's never had an injury. That's, yeah, he's never. He's never really missed significant time for anything.

And in the playoffs, which like even Bill Russell got hurt in the playoffs once. Like LeBron's never had a playoff injury listen to you you're capping for a lebron no i'm not capping anything i was just pointing out it's lebron he's never gotten injured i'm just saying a murder how about for a murder i'm desperate no but it is like injury luck decides the title pretty much every year yeah but there's some players who just always get injured and they're just like oh man how unlucky it's like at some point yeah i don't

think blake griffin's unlucky anywhere yeah there's a durability issue with some players blake griffin kevin o'connor has the complete list but it's like it's so long you can't read it who's the other player that i'm completely for injuries yeah that i'm just completely that's always has a different injury and it's like oh he's injured it's an nba i just for some reason it'll come to me in a minute on a playoff team just just a player that ever is always a good player but who's always getting injured and oh anthony davis oh yeah that's a good one so that's a that's a fear anthony davis has just been super unlucky or is he probably he's got like he's not all the way to what that guy had in that bruce willis comic book movie unbreakable he's not all the way there but he's what that guy had in that Bruce Willis comic book movie, Unbreakable. He's not all the way there, but he's on that spectrum where he's going to be injury prone, I think.

Some people just know how to avoid injury. Even you see it as kids. There's certain kids in my son's class who always had these little injuries. My son's never been injured. He's tumbling off couches and falling down the stair. He just doesn't get hurt. I feel like LeBron is the greatest possible version of that. LeBron, think of how many times he's crashed into people.

And he's just one of the greatest athletes of all time. I would say he's in the top five ever in any sport. And it's also the type of thing where if you start getting a couple injuries, it exacerbates things because now you're favoring this niece and you have problems with the other right so it just kind of snowballs plus the radiation you imagine anthony davis is in that digging that mri once once every two games that's probably the biggest fear for him right now well you've noticed you've been a couple quipper games this year like you've noticed blake athletically is not the same guy i mean now it doesn't matter anymore but he just he used to jump over people now he's going under and around people he wrote that article where he's like i'm not doing that anymore i'm trying to prolong my

career i need to become a mid-range specialist and it's just kind of like okay but your athleticism was what made you special no not even i'm just saying like you're doing that sure it's going to prolong your career but you're not going to be as good a player as you used to be that's right that's not a good way to play basketball. Quick break to talk about ProperCloth. ProperCloth.com. Every guy knows it's hard to find a dress shirt that fits. Maybe the collar's too tight, the sleeves are too long, the shirt's too loose. I have some good news.

Ordering a custom fit shirt has never been easier thanks to ProperCloth. Create a custom shirt size in seconds by just answering 10 easy questions. No measuring required. Tate, have you done this yet? Not yet. Okay. Way to go, Tate.

Over 500 fabric styles to choose from, everything from classic business to casual shirts, all high quality starting at just $85. Proper Cloth has hundreds of five-star reviews on Google and Yelp. It's the highest rated custom shirt maker on Google. Who would have the most five-star reviews on Yelp in the NBA? Probably LeBron. LeBron. LeBron.

Yeah. Maybe a lot of Westbrook. And then there would be like the Westbrook counter crew would be putting one-star reviews to try. Then there'd be the guys who write reviews just like they'll have like 1,500 reviews and they're reviewing the most ridiculous. They'd be like talking about Kawhi's defense. Those guys. Find out why GQ calls Proper Cloth their favorite online custom shirt maker.

Go to their easy toto-use website. Make a custom profile order from your phone. By the way, Proper Cloth guarantees a perfect fit. Remakes are free. The Proper Cloth team makes it super easy to do. Stop wearing shirts that don't fit. Look your best. Go to propercloth.com slash BS.

Enter gift code BS and save $20 on your first shirt. Clippers. Blake Griffin. This is year six. Blake, Chris, DeAndre have all been on the same team now for six years. Back in the day early on, we used to blame Vinny Del Negro.

You and I especially. Like, what is this guy? Come on. What's going on here? I remember there was one time when Michael Smith predicted their play coming out of a timeout. That happens, though. No, but he was just like, here's what they're going to do. And I'm like, this is a terrible sign that Michael Smith knows their play coming out of the timeout.

So then he leaves and Doc comes in, who you and i had always been a little suspicious about as a game coach but respected yeah of course better than vinnie it all crests in 2015 the houston series when were you at that game when they blew the 25 point lead or whatever that was i went to every game that's not that one i missed that was game six was it game five or game say whatever they lost the next game it was game five yeah and they lost game six and game seven yeah no i didn't go to that game and then last year all hell breaks loose now this year it's kind of the last stand blake gets hurt he's out and now it looks like what would you do what would you do if you're running the clippers i don't do you run this back for year seven?

Yeah. Do you pay Blake $28 million a year next year or whatever he's going to get? I mean, you could say the thing that's interesting is like, what do you do if you're every team that's not golden state? Because they have the NBA by the, I mean, they've got,

that's it. They're the team. That's probably only going to be the team that wins championships. So what would i do i don't know i i think that the model of player or excuse me coach and president of basketball operations is a terrible model i i think guys i would like to agree i think that i think that you need someone who is able to study just other players and the draft and strategy and all those other things,

and you can't be doing that and coaching. The Celtics have two GMs, basically. Sure. Not to mention a whole staff underneath them. Yeah. And Doc, for two years, tried to do both jobs, coach and GM, which is just a suicide mission. I don't think it's not the same talent.

The ability to coach and be a leader of men and drawing up plays etc it's not the same talent as putting together a roster well phil jackson it worked out though oh wait no it didn't work out at all right so um what do i do i don't know i probably i probably would have wanted to trade blake a couple years ago last year was the year when denver was ready to give up whatever to get him, to get a superstar. They probably could have gotten Jokic and Gallinari and Will Barton. They could have traded him to Oklahoma City at some point for someone.

I think the Celtics would have jumped at him big time last year. I think they would have given up both Brooklyn picks. It just shows you how hard it is to be a power forward in the nba who plays his style he's not someone who crashes a lot underneath the basket and he doesn't stretch it all the way out to the three-point line so you're just sitting in that 0.7 0.8 points per shot range of those long twos that he likes to take and then deandre is there too and he's clogging at least part of the lane that's bad so it's just it's just it's unless he develops like a terrific it's just sad because he is a ridiculous i mean he's a great ball handler he's

a great playmaker they can play fast he's a he's a spectacular talent he's just in an era that makes him less valuable i think well i always wonder like always wonder, like, this Westbrook-Durant thing and how it played out, where clearly both guys needed their own situation. I wonder if that's the case with Blake and Chris. And let's say they trade Blake to... I guess Blake's going to opt out. And I don't know.

I forget how they change the sign and trade rules, so I might not be right on this. But let's say they just said, Blake, we'll re-sign you and we'll flip you in two months for this. I think you have to wait even longer than that. Yeah, they did change it. I think it's December 13th, right? Oh, shit. All right, under the old sign and trade rules.

But put him on orlando and orlando sends a like a three for one trade which normally i'm against but if you're the clippers and you're able to get like aaron gordon as the blake replacement and a couple other guys and who else would you want on that team though and that's true well all right so it's a double hypothetical so if you can do a side of trade in Orlando, had guys you wanted. Yeah. But no, I think Denver is a good example too.

But they're not getting Jokic now. No chance. Jokic, if they traded Jokic for Blake, I think there would be a riot in Denver. They'd get Superstone first, but then they would have a riot. No, actually, I don't even know where the Blake market is now. To your point, they missed it. Because like like a year ago i think it was much higher now it's like okay see

i could see doing it the next can never be ruled out under any circumstances for anything they could or it seemed like brooklyn yeah they could certainly play the triangle with blake that would be fun or you know i i just don't know what he does because if I'm him and I'm this banged up, I'm grabbing the money at that point. What does Chris Paul do is what I want to like, I know they, he was on the, the,

the union, whatever leadership, what, what is he? He's like a union rep. They're going to call it the Chris Paul role. Yeah. But he like,

you know, they specifically him and LeBron specifically created this collective bargaining agreement thing that allowed them to maximize the amount of the Chris Paul role. Yeah. And so now does he leave though it's five it's five years 201 million it might even be more because the cap went up a little bit yeah so i don't know yeah if you were him would you go to milwaukee i theorized this on friday if you're just trying if chris paul's like i just want to win a championship go to milwaukee you would no i would not oh you would not i want to go to milwaukee where would you go if you're chris paul and you want to win a championship. If I was anyone, I wouldn't go to Milwaukee. You would. No, I would not. Oh, you would not. I want to go to Milwaukee. Where would you go if you're Chris Paul and you want to win a title?

Oh, if I... Yeah, I mean... I would go to the East. He's too old. Yeah, he would go to the East for sure. He's probably too old to go to... I don't think Milwaukee, even with Chris Paul, is ready. I don't think.

I mean, I don't know. He would go... If you want to win a championship, you'd probably go to San Antonio. Is this Golden State thing? This is just where we're going to be the rest of the decade probably we'll see i don't know the caps it's different once you start winning championships stuff changes like obviously you guys feel like they won the title and now it's okay now i want to get paid i want to get out of here maybe someone felt like oh i won the title and i didn't get enough credit because i did more than this guy did you just never really know the disease of more as pat riley called it yeah you just never

really know so but as constructed in the way things are now it's pretty hard to beat that team for the next however longer houston i think created the best possible team that hypothetically could beat them. Sure. Just from, they get the two monster-harding games and the two games where they hit a ton of threes. All the games where they hit a ton of threes. They're just going to, and they got, they're smart enough to realize that, look, we are not as good as this team. We need to junk up this game as much as possible.

Yeah. And create as much variance as possible. Right. So, there are. Which is what they, what they're going to. With a ton of threes. Deep threes. It's going to be interesting if they match up durant's the x factor because now that curry's playing better and they they have their mojo back a little bit and then when they play that lineup with durant and draymond nobody has the guy to match up against durant in that

situation like was, fun team. Yeah. I really enjoy watching Washington. I think they could score with Golden State, but the X factor would be you can't play Boyan against Durant. Washington's a fun team if you make a rule that says only five players are allowed to play for an entire game. Right. Because their bench is just a joke.

It's just Boyan. It's ridiculous. Like Brandon Jennings had a few moments where he just went he had like a great moment in game two but if you watch him on defense you know he's not good who everyone thinks is a great defender because every once in a while he'll deflect i like uber am i wrong to like uber he's he's great at getting those deflections he does he did brain fart a couple times in these playoffs he's yeah he looks out of it plays like right up on players and then they blow by him he gets he's always out of position he these playoffs. Dude, he's... Yeah, he looks ahead of it. He plays like right up on players, and then they blow by him.

He's always out of position. He's like a high variance player because he's going to get a steal for a dunk, which he may miss, right? Because he missed a couple of those too. Or he's going to just get some guy backdooring him or leaving him open. Or he's just going to run up on someone

and foul him when they're in the penalty. He did that twice in game two. Just for no reason fouled off the ball when they're in the penalty because he wanted to play real game two, just for no reason fouled off the ball when they're in the penalty because he wanted to play real close. I think it's young exuberance. Yeah, he seems like he's got some exuberance problems. I do like that Washington team,

and I am hoping that. I think Washington Celtics would be so much fun. I swear they haven't played since like 1984 in a playoff series. I would love that one. It would just be great. Every game would be 120 to 117 or 128 to 124. That's a team, though.

How, where do you put Isaiah in that versus that team? That's our big matchup problem with them. You put them basically in auto porter, and you just kind of hope that they don't do pick and rolls and switch it so Isaiah's on. Yeah. Isaiah can't guard John Wall. Most people can't guard John Wall at this point's on yeah isaiah can't guard john wall most people can't guard john wall no but isaiah can't guard john wall he can't guard bradley beal no that's

a disaster he probably can't even guard kelly uber jr probably can't guard kelly uber senior it's terrible so it's tough it's the isaiah conundrum was that team in toronto were weirdly that even cleveland they could match up better with it because they just put them on one of the shooters. But on Toronto, they had nobody to put them against. And then on top of it, it's the one team that Jonas just kills, the Celtics. He just loves it. What would you do in Toronto, Milwaukee?

Where do you see that one going? We should do a quick speed round. Sure. I see, I think Milwaukee is the better team for that matchup but i don't know if they're ready to win it seems like we've been here before with these young playoff teams and bunch of smoke getting blown up the asses and it's tough they're they haven't been there before brogdon to me in game four looked it looked it looked to me like he was feeling it for the first time like oh we really need you and it's like i'm a rookie i just started

playing 20 they need a big game for middleton if they're going to and he sucked in game terrible in game four yeah awful so i don't know i see that series i if i had to i would probably i mean i don't know i think milwaukee has a chance to win that series. I would probably. The history of this stuff is with young teams, as the series goes along, it's better for them. Because they just get a little more comfortable each game. And the fact that it's 2-2 and they have a chance to come back to Milwaukee if they won game five. I still really like this Toronto team. But how about the fact that they were up two games to one and they had a chance to go up three games.

That's huge. The swing of that is just huge. It was weird that they didn't see it coming, what Toronto was obviously going to do in that game, which was just make it ugly, put PJ Tucker on Giannis, slow it down. What was really weird is that Toronto didn't realize that

Norman Powell should have been playing more right that was the space that was the that was the matchup change the lineup change that really switched things for that series because arguably should have happened in game everyone on my twitter feed was going crazy i have people love norman powell yeah so it was like you know there's all these pictures of norm from cheers when he was like when he played well so that's that'll be interesting how they counter that is that the biggest toss-up series for you right now the clippers one is pretty big toss-up series too i mean any series it's two two is a pretty

big i mean i think boston's i i i think boston's definitely in the driver's i think we're okay in that series um i think atlanta washington is kind of a toss-up too i mean if you look at i thought washington was so much better than atlanta to begin the series i just thought this is like but if you look at the first two games washington won they didn't win i mean those games were in doubt they were not go away wins and a couple of things had to go right for washington to win those games and they did yeah and i know atlanta has way more options to make changes like that's always saying in a series always look at like okay who you know who has the ability to make like a lineup change or switch things around who has that ability because they have the pieces and then will they actually

do it and toronto fits that mode too yeah a lot of weird flexibility they could do some different things and they might find something that works some of it's just random they're just plugging in different things and it just happened to work oh wow look how good this is working yeah but what what move does washington have other than just playing better i mean they have no depth whatsoever if they have to play as fast as possible with wall and transition and they have to hope that i mean if atlanta plays Dwight Howard less, crashes the boards less, plays better on offense. Dwight Howard less is a good playoff recipe.

Yeah. It's a bad matchup for them. He's probably past his prime. That's a fair. I would say definitely. Yeah. Pretty fair thing to say. And, you know, Muscala kind of stretches it out. If they want to play a center, they can play him.

And then they can just play small. It's not like you have to really worry about Gortat. Oh, no, what are we going to do if we go small? Gortat's going to kill us. The Polish Hammer. I mean, he's a good player. He's a fine player, but he's not going to kill you. I've been stunned by Schroeder, who I was never a fan of.

I always thought one of my six or seven. I had him in the bottom six or seven for starting point cards the whole season. He played unreal in game three. I had him in the bottom six or seven for starting point guards the whole season. He played unreal in game three. I love John Wall. I can't believe he doesn't have a shoot contract. I think he's breathtaking. He's not a good defensive player. He is a good defensive player.

I feel like he's not, though. I feel like he has the tools to be a good defensive player, but I don't see it. To me, Schroeder shouldn't be just lighting them up like this. John Wall's got to take that on himself. I've got to stop him. They've got to adjust their scheme a little bit and make it so that he's primarily guarding him

when they run pick and roll because that's what's killing it. They're not ISOing or posting him up. It's pick and roll. You need to make an adjustment. Your guy's got to come over. Now the ball swings and it comes back to him. So it's hard because anytime you have a lot of,

that's the difference between Westbrook and other players. Westbrook in pick and roll, you can pack the paint in because there's no shooters, right? But Atlanta, they've got the floor spread out a lot more and so it creates those lanes. And that's a big difference that people don't really account for. Tanaida's too. Tanaida could be too. Tanaida could be too's the big that's a big difference that people don't really account for tonight is too tonight it could be tonight it could be too too

he's got to win that he's got to win that match got to crush that matchup they played so bad that was like a it's some of these teams that show up and just play so bad it's just so interesting i mean the playoffs it's usually an afternoon game and it's it's and you're just looking like what is going on i think those early afternoon playoff games almost are unbettable it's like they're tough to watch what the fuck's gonna happen yeah they're tough to watch you don't know if the guys have been out the night before sometimes they've played 36 hours before the game and they're tired from that or you just don't know there was a game seven or a game five where rudy gay was at the fantasy factory dunking off trampolines till two or three

in the morning the night before he was like literally the night before and the game was a noon pacific start okay and i was just like rudy you play tomorrow bro yeah right what are you doing and then i remember just watching he was terrible i remember watching was like dude what were you why are you jumping off of trampolines into foam ball like he was at literally jumping off the trampolines dunking for everyone at the fantasy factory till two or three in the morning might have been that late it was pretty late though the other thing with nba players is they're on this body clock schedule where you know they're trying to peak it from 7 30 to 10 at night they go they eat dinner afterwards it's just different usually up to like 3 34 in the morning so you throw that

random it's just 12 30 or 2 o'clock East Coast time. And it's the playoffs too. And it's just like, yeah, you never know. Do one more for Quicken Loans. When it comes down to the massive decision of choosing a mortgage lender, it's important to work with someone you can trust who has your best interests in mind. With Rocket Mortgage, you'll get a transparent online process that gives you the confidence to make an informed decision.

Don't waste time searching through stacks of paperwork with Rocket Mortgage. You can securely share your financial info to get a mortgage approval within minutes. You can even adjust the rate and length of your loan in real time to make sure you get the mortgage solution that's right for you, whether you're looking to buy a home or refinance your existing mortgage. You can lift the burden of getting a home loan with Rocket Mortgage. Skip the bank. Skip the waiting. Go completely online at quickenloans.com slash Bill Simmons, equal housing lender, licensed in all 50 states, NMLS, consumeraccess.org, number 3030. Again, quickenloans.com slash Bill Simmons.

So you think that's the most confusing series, Toronto, Atlanta? A little bit. Oh, Utah Clippers. Utah Clippers is just guys, you never even know who's playing. Yeah.

That's been the toughest thing for me is like, I almost want to do this series again where just everybody's in it. I want to know what happens. Yeah. Now it's like, well,

I mean, Colbert looks like he's all the way there. It looks like he probably, I mean, he's not all the way there, but he played good enough in the first game back. Now he's got. Bothered some shots.

Yeah. Iso Joe was unreal. 20 straight points, either scored or assisted down the stretch. That's amazing. They had no answer for that. Rodney Hood is the all-time hit or miss guy on a playoff team, and he was actually good yesterday. Doc Rivers cut Joe Ingles for a guy who now plays for Jiang Zhu, Monkey King in China. all-time hit or miss guy on a playoff team and he was actually good yesterday doc rivers cut joe

ingles for a guy who now plays for jangzu monkey king in china who did he cut him for i forget jared cunningham jangzu monkey king that's literally the team the guy's playing for in his defense i watched joe angles play last year and i'm like i think i even tweeted about it a couple times i'm like what am i missing with joe angles i just couldn't get it. But that's like the stereotype, I think. Maybe it is. If you look at Joe Ingles, you're not like, oh, that guy's an NBA. If you were at a club and you're a girl and someone's like, oh, that guy plays in the NBA, you'd be like, get the fuck out of here.

Right, he's like Marty Conlin for this generation. Yeah, he looks like Biff from the future and back to the future. But this year he's actually making threes. I thought when they had him guarding Chris Paul at the end of game three was one of the weirdest things i've ever seen it wasn't completely a disaster he's a good defender yeah it's because he's he's got really he's got a lot of length and he's smart he knows angles he knows where to push a guy he knows how to like use his hands on the hips and move them this way move them that way so yeah uh you know what was interesting about that game was the clippers played that game like they wanted that game to be as less they wanted that game to be as short as possible in terms of like

if you watch they weren't in a hurry to inbound the ball right they played super deliberate and i just feel like that's not the team i get it it's a bad environment you're in utah you want to take the crowd out of it bring it and you want want to take the air out of the ball and make the game. But is that really the team you want to force a half-court matchup against? No. Utah? I feel like they play half-court. I mean, the Clippers are a super efficient offensive team in the half-court.

But I don't know. It just seemed like the Clippers, when I watch them play really well, when they're playing really well, it's, it's usually they're getting out and they're creating like these mismatches where they can get Jade. Like JJ Redick is a great player and he's a great, he's struggling in this series,

but I feel like he benefits a lot from their early to late off, like their early to mid transition offense. It's that Warriors chaos thing where it's, it's those first six seconds after something when everybody's scrambling to go wherever. And that's when he's really good. That's where games are one. Usually if you look at something when everybody's scrambling to go wherever, and that's when he's really good. That's where games are won, usually. If you look at something, it's in this stretch that happens that just something goes mad

for two or three minutes. It happened in the Wizards-Atlanta game. Oubre got a steal. Jennings got a steal. They did this. They did that. And all of a sudden, they're up 12. And that happens.

I feel like the Clippers are never in that situation where playing that style on the road where they're ever just going to be up 12 because they're, they're going on a run. There is not going to be going. Celtics are another team like that. They love the chaos. Yeah. They love when,

when, when they start slowing it up and Isaiah's bringing up their 16 seconds on the shot clock when he's just passing over half quarter. I'm always like that. The bull should be slowing that pace down and making it super choppy and awkward. The more chaotic it gets, they should be running post

ups and back downs yeah all the time in the game getting the glass getting getting the rebound or go old school 80s like like what david blatt had the cavaliers do versus golden state right in the 2015 finals you want a 92 89 you want a caveman style of basketball or just someone's backing and jimmy butler can do that back. Start backing down from the three-point line. Wade can do it, too. That's kind of his style now. That's all he does. Yeah.

But it's, I mean, or, you know, the other thing is you could have Michael Carter-Williams in there along with Joffrey Laverne. And you could have him run pick and roll. You could do that, too. Michael Carter-Williams. I will say defensively, he does bug Isaiah a little bit. Yeah, of course. But offensively, you're playing four and five. And it's, I mean, literally, you might even be playing three and a half on five.

We did a thing where we were studying like the shot angles and like the ability of a shot to go in in terms of like how lucky or unlucky was a miss. Because like just the arc of the ball could it have gone in or didn't go in and he had like so many where the camera the sport view camera tracking was messed up because he was hitting the backboard the camera didn't know if it if it was like over on this side of the court or that side like if you watch the ball it would bounce all around the court because he's taking these threes that are hitting the top of the backboard the side of the backboard yeah the left they when they go left or right that's never a good. Yeah, he is the worst shooter in the league, and it's not close. Yeah. Of anyone under, like, 6'8".

It's, yeah, it's pretty, I don't, well, Roberson. How tall is he, 6'9"? But Roberson at least had five weeks last spring. Yeah, Roberson's better. When he made shots. But Michael Carrum's going to make free throws. True. And so it's interesting, right?

So I hate, I tweeted this yesterday. I hate Hack-A-Shack. I think it's awful. I love it in its current carnation. It was brilliant how they used it yesterday. It was really, really savvy, smart. I always wonder, like, when it's just used as, like, an effective quickie strategy just to throw a team off,

it's really effective. I don't understand why teams don't do it with the clips more. Like the just the random oh we fouled deandre and then don't do it again it's like are they gonna do this again no and then it's in your head yeah i thought i thought i changed game four i thought it was smart utah could definitely benefit from that at some point because the clippers are so ridiculously efficient on offense and you knock them out of the flow because i think there's certain teams the clips the warriors i think the celtics are like this where they get in these six minute grooves and all you have to do is that one hack a shack stops it think about that think about this if if if deandre you're gambling that he has a poor night from the line if he does

who do they go to they have to take them out doc has taken out what do they go to now marie spates you want that guy playing the five right versus favors or go baron pick and roll i would definitely and i would definitely do that at some it's just tough because you have to be in the penalty already or the bonus whichever yeah however you want to call it and then you can only do it from you know you can't do it in the last two minutes of a quarter so it has to be a spec you don't want to foul to get into the penalty because that just puts you in a bad situation um so yeah and he has to be on the court by the way if rondo decides to play which i do not think can be ruled out because that guy played with a dislocated elbow and played he finished a game with a torn acl like that guy

is going to play in this series anyone who thinks he's not playing is insane if he's playing out there with some sort of splint and it's just going be like rondo's gonna run the offense and this i would do hack a rondo yeah if he's gonna have something on his hand it's his left hand though right i thought it was a shooting hand oh yeah it's a shooting hand he can't play then he can't play i'm not ruling out rondo i'm telling you he'll figure it out he'll just play with a he'll play with the broken hand like a a paw? Like a giant... He'll just turn his hand into a paw. I think they'll do something.

I don't know what you could do. He'll be the first guy to do it. Yeah, he'll cut it off. He'll be like, I'm not losing this series. Take my thumb. Suture it off. But if he does play, if they don't do hack-a-round,

that's insane. If he does play, they'll probably hack him. Yeah. I don't think he's gonna... He might play. I don't know. You might be right.

Golden State. Next round, playing the winner of this quips utah series i haven't heard a lot of people talking about this i don't think it'll happen 16 and 0 is not inconceivable to me it's not inconceivable no it's not inconceivable either the thing is that when they turn they're as good defensively as they are offensively. People don't realize that. Well, nobody realizes Durant's good on defense. It's like never gets mentioned when people talk about the Durant package.

That's like the one thing where you talk about, okay, well, if a team wants to bring the variance with three-point shots, you aren't getting, like are Damian Lillard and CJ McCollum getting a lot of open threes in the series or threes at all? They're not because they're switching everything one to five uh golden state is and they've got so much length and arms they're like milwaukee only if milwaukee was veteran and smart right on defense and knew every rotation the one thing that does muck it up

a little bit is uh you know their their head coach might not be there and so you have i was gonna say there's only one man who can stop going stable and unfortunately it's mike brown mike brown's a fine coach i don't know i maybe i'm not sure mike brown's a fine coach they're all fine coaches look you don't get to be an nba head coach without being a decent coach i don't think i've kind of i don't know who you are right now i've come to that real uh mike brown had lebron at his absolute apex in 09 and 2010 and they kind of struggled offensively in big moments which is pretty much impossible i don't want to hear about the supporting cast lebron was at the height of his powers okay you got it he was 35 11 and 15 or something in the in the 13 playoff games that year okay it was some crazy 35 12 and 9 or

something like that yeah there's only so much a coach can do though i mean like look at like we're talking about doc rivers and now how he's not doing a good job but they want a title with him so it's it's a lot of it is just the guys around you and finding something that works. I don't think Doc's doing a bad job. I think from what I've seen the last couple years, the biggest mistake is that they never tried small ball with Blake at the five.

Just the whole league was going that way. And never staggering. He's done so many things that people have thought are horrible. Like staggering minutes, playing all bench units. That was like, remember the days when you and I were going crazy things that people have thought are horrible like staggering minutes playing all bench units uh that was like remember the days when you and i were going crazy that scott brooks would take westbrook and duran out at the same time it still remains one of the most inexplicable dude they ran they ran like a five-man bench unit in game one and game two and it was a total like

their starters were up like 24 and 28 points in the first two games something like that and then they rolled out brandon jennings right kelly uber jr boyan bogdanovich he doesn't get it thomas satiransky i can't remember who the other guy was just play wall or bill just keep wall or bill out there but he also had wall out there with like oh it was yeah i don't know it's tough though because they don't have anything they don't have any depth. That Washington team doesn't really have any depth. So I don't, and then Wall's playing so fast, I don't think he can play more than 38 minutes a game. True, he's gonna, he's actually one of the few guys in the history of me watching the NBA

where I actually fear for their safety sometimes. Did you see that, the dunk that he had? Yeah, the behind the back lefty. And the speed of it, like, that's the thing. The speed was just so, that was the most behind the back lefty ridiculous and the speed of it like that's the thing the speed was just so that was breathtaking him westbrook and derrick rose are the three guys from this decade where you're just like oh my god yeah janice is as fast but it doesn't seem like he's as fast it's like an optical illusion and the steps are so long that it's it's it's it looks like it's going slower than it actually is whereas wall looks like it's going faster than it actually it's just looks so fast does janice winnis win an MVP in the next five years?

Probably. Does he win an MVP before Anthony Davis? Yeah. I don't know. I would say that the chance of Anthony Davis going an entire year without being injured has to be considered skeptically. It's tough. Yeah.

I hope he, but it just seems like i don't know what they could do what did your model think when they traded for boogie cousins and put him and davis on the same team um i think it overvalued the it definitely thought they would be better than they were yeah but it's just it's just too tough like mid-season you don't get very much practice like the model doesn't know that there's no practice right it's a model especially february march nobody's practicing nobody cares those games are like i wasn't really paying too much attention to the new orleans hornets to begin or pelicans to begin with so i didn't really know but i do think that it would have overvalued them for sure they kind of turned it on for a stretch there

played really good for a couple games and they just started resting everyone because they're trying to tank for a draft pick i don't really care who wins milwaukee and uh toronto i should care i'm canadian but i'm kind of rooting for milwaukee right yeah i was gonna say i don't care like i don't have a betting interest in it or anything yannis versus lebron would be just thrilling for me yeah i just feel like if you're a basketball fan and you don't have any ties to either team in this series and you didn't bet on them you want that for sure you want to see yannis play lebron you want to see i want to see the freak of the last generation and still the freak go against the future freak and i just want to see them battling like superheroes agree that would be a fun series to watch yannis is just so awesome too how about his defense

how about the brownie covers how about like how about like his tweets where he's like oh my god try smoothie for a first time i love america like how do you not love this guy it's amazing him and his brother selling like like watches and stuff like that on the street in athens is like homeless basically not homeless but like trying to earn a living for the right and it's just he was homeless for a little while it's amazing to me we did that draft jalen and i 2013 and he was the one guy we just couldn't figure out like you know the foreign guys you're just watching youtube clips basically exactly we're watching youtube clips of him and it looked like he was playing against ninth graders and some gym and the ymca and jalen's like how old are those guys and i'm like i don't know i don't even know if

they're 18 yeah and we just started playing like in a league that's not like when you're playing in like the greek league or you're playing here you're playing there again like you said like it's one thing like there's that luca i don't know what his last name is luca yeah that guy that guy's playing in real madrid already 17 yeah he might be he might be the guy the guy yeah he's a high school junior playing in on real madrid against like the best players in europe yeah so against that you can and but then he's only his stats aren't very good but because you have to look at okay he's 17 but like you said how do you that was the rubio 2008 olympics thing he's like 17 or 18 playing in the uh yeah olympics but if

rubio had a jump shot he would be top top three-point guard in the league, top four-point guard. Nick should have traded for him. 100%. For Rose's experiment. So we're watching those Giannis clips. Sorry, yeah. And we thought the gym was small. Because the ground, and we're just looking at the gym going, is the gym, is that like a smaller gym?

We couldn't figure it out and then it turns out no he's just like he took these giant steps and then after they drafted him he grew two inches in this rookie year he grew like two or three inches or something there's a little bit of revisionist history now at that draft it's interesting like the celtic fans get salty i i've made jokes about it like oh we took olenek over yannis yeah but doing that draft we were all surprised schroeder didn't go ahead of him like schroeder was like schroeder the gobert yannis there are all these different foreign guys and schroeder was the guy that we were like oh we could see him going 13 14 15 but see those i don't know i just feel like if you have a philosophy on drafting

like look at all of the really shocking draft picks in the history of like the last 10 15 years there haven't been like six foot three point guards or six foot two point guards. None of those guys shock you. It's the guys like Giannis, Jokic, Gobert. Like I feel like the teams that get it take gambles. Yeah. Take gambles on big players because that's your biggest upside. And those are the players that take the long, DeAndre Jordan.

Those are the players that take the longest to develop. And for every case like that, you have another case of like a guy like larry sanders who was good but then didn't have the head-on right or you have guys like i can't really think of any but got big guys who just never yeah you have a sheem to beat right but he was a number two like i'm talking about taking like in the late rounds flyers yeah just you're taking a flyer exactly it's funny though i've asked people about yokage because like the celtics had throwaway picks that they could have taken yokage and everybody who scouted him that year was just like there was no way to see this coming he was just this fat pudgy catered and seemed like he cared that much about basketball how do you know nurkic is another example because

he as a player playing last year or this year, excuse me, he looked like he couldn't play either when he was playing for... And every team had scouting meetings like, all right, let's talk about Nurkic. He's available. Should we go get him? And then Portland gets him and he just goes off. Portland gave up... Portland got a first-round pick and Nurkic.

Yeah. That's how low his value was. Yeah. And who... I mean, I certainly didn't predict that type of type of i mean he just made that offense roll i think the one thing we've learned over the years with trades that that end up being steals is you really have to look at if the guy is just in the wrong situation of course and it's and it's something we just don't do enough you know nurkic and yokich could not play together they picked yokich now you have this guy who's available at this declining price.

That's a pretty good gamble. I didn't want the Celtics to trade for Nurkic. I was like, that guy's, I was just judging from what I saw. But I think we've seen that over and over again. There's certain guys. State of mind of the player at the time, attitude, work ethic, that stuff that you can't really get from on court. And you have to ask a lot of questions.

I really like the Cameron Payne trade the bulls made because gibson's leaving anyway i'm like cameron payne that's a classic bad situation guys on westbrook's team he never has the ball and then he goes to the bulls and he stinks well so that's the flip side of it i don't know he might he's better than isaiah cannon isaiah cannon and michael carter williams are playing over him and a playoff series but does that mean that he's worse or does it mean that the coach doesn't think he's good enough good point we don't know we'll know after game five because i'm sure he's gonna play 38 minutes probably so do you think the words can go 16 and 0 or no the houston variance probably screws it up one of those camps that and the coaching and then just the the i mean if they play cleveland i

cleveland's gonna take a game probably from them too i don't think they go i mean i think they have a chance they have a better chance any other team to go 16 you know that i can remember south and the lakers went 15 and one that one year when they lost to the o1 lakers came freaking close ot game one finals and they didn't just win they won every game by a lot that team was that was like my one of my greatest moments in the history. Well, that was like you built your empire in that one. The year before, but the next year. And the next year.

The next year I was riding that. I mean, they were so good. Derek Fisher got injured, came back from injury. They just wanted to run. I was like, I remember they played the Spurs and they were the underdog versus the Spurs that year. And they beat the Spurs like by 20 and 20 or something. I mean, they just crushed them. Yeah.

Wasn't even close. That's your favorite. Oh, four Pistons you did well too. Oh, four Pistons. I mean, they just crushed them. Yeah. It wasn't even close. That's your favorite. 04 Pistons, you did well too. 04 Pistons, I did well, yes. But I did. 08 Celtics? 04 Pistons, I pivoted. 04 Pistons, I thought they're not going to have a chance after watching game one.

I was like, this team gets every loose ball. Yeah. They're drawing fouls because they're more athletic. Karl Malone got injured. I was like, this is just, this is a bad. 08 Celtics, I did bad. I had the south i had the lakers that year oh my god yeah yeah that's the worst thing i've ever heard really bitter and look back at all these phil jackson quotes i was like how does this happen why are they letting out so many open the corner threes what is going on here um i did bad that

year i've had a bunch where i've done bad the playoffs are tough when i was it was it's tough the playoffs are very tough there's so many things you can't predict. The best team doesn't always win in a seven-game series. It's tough. I don't really do the series. I never really did series plays. I would always just bet the individual games for the most part. Sal and I made our big bet before the year,

which was that Golden State would not win the title because we like the odds. It's just a death ship. Everyone on the ship is dead it's just sailing across the ocean yeah into the middle of nowhere it has no chance we'd have to have an injury at this point yeah could happen though the theory was you have durant i mean new team throwing new guys together the history of it says it takes a year to figure out do we know how healthy durant is though i mean he could play, but who knows what happens when he plays. This is a good point, and this is where we'll end.

Because I think we've seen this with Kevin Love, too. These guys come back from injuries, and we're like, they're back. They're fine. And it's like a lot of times they're not fine. And a lot of times it takes three, four weeks for them to kind of look like themselves again. I think we saw that with Kevin Love. I think he came back from a knee injury, and he just wasn't the same for a while now it's starting now he's starting to bang bodies and starting to look like kevin love again but i still wonder i don't understand

the darren williams thing i just don't understand it the guy the guy arguably looks as good as he's looked in like five years this is somebody i thought was on his way out of the league he had some games for dallas that played where he played really well he watched him i just think he doesn't have to do a lot doesn't have to start and in little bursts like that like his thing is a durability like being able to play for an entire game right he's perfect for 19 minutes it's yeah it's perfect that was a really i thought that was a really, I thought that was a waste of time to sign that guy.

I was completely wrong. No, I thought that he would do okay for them. I'd watched him play a little bit this year and I was like, eh, he's probably not going to play 30 minutes a game, but he can play in stretches. They have,

first of all, one of the most fun playoff teams we've ever had. They can come back from any lead. They can blow any lead. You can never turn the Cavs off. And then you get J.R. Smith too. Yeah, you yeah you get i mean you get one of the three best players ever and kairi who can put up 50 in any playoff game even though he never does but it's always looming yeah and kevin love can

always be weird and but they they could be down 26 you're like i'm not turning it off they could score 140 points in a game this year in in a regulation game in the playoffs. Yeah, we could... But what'll be interesting in the finals, if it's Cavs-Warriors, do they want to do the... See, they won't. They're going to slow it down and go the other way. No, it'd have to be.

It would have to have been versus Indiana, I think, probably. Because they're not going to do it against Milwaukee or Toronto. You don't think they're going to do it against Celts or Washington? That game, a team where they... I mean, if they played the Celtics, it could be that type of game. I think it could be for Washington too. Why?

Because Washington's going to turn on the Jets and go. Yeah, I'm not sure. It's always tough to know what the teams will do and what their strategy is. But yeah, they're just so good offensively. Austin Rivers is back for game five. Here we go. All right.

That changes everything. It actually does help them. I voted for him for second team all defense. He's a good... Thank you. He's a good defensive player. But he's a good defensive player because he fouls all the time. He learned from Chris Paul, the master.

Chris Paul commits 20 fouls a game. No, he is. Look, he gets a lot of flack. He's not as bad as people think he is and he's not as good as he thinks he is, which is probably true of every person in this world.

No one's as good as they think they are at anything, but he's not as bad as people think he is. He'll help them. Thanks again to Proper Cloth. Ordering a custom fit shirt

has never been easier thanks to them. Proper Cloth custom shirts start from $85. High quality shirts made from premium Italian and Japanese fabrics. They guarantee a perfect fit.

Remakes are free. Their team makes it super easy to do. Stop wearing shirts that don't fit. Start looking your best. Go to propercloth.com slash BS. Enter gift code BS to save $20 on your first shirt. Don't forget about the Ringer NFL show and the Ringer NBA show, those podcasts. A whole bunch of stuff going on this week.

TheRinger.com. I will have a column there, maybe even two this week. And Haral Bob, you can follow on Twitter. You've been, I've been, you've been more laid back this year.

You've been taking it easy. Yeah. I get into it in the playoffs a little bit, but I didn't do anything during the regular season. Just H-A-R-A-L-A-B-O-B at, um, no, there'll be a game when you snap,

it's going to come. It's just your history. I'm going by your usage rate, your history, your PR throughout the playoffs. You're going to have a 25 tweet binge coming. I just don't know when. I know I've already had that. Who was it about? I mean, the last two games I was watching, I had nothing else to do.

So I was watching the games and tweeting. But afterwards, it's like you always feel like regret. It's like a bad one night stand. Me regret it's like a bad one night stand you know me on twitter one night stand yeah i probably shouldn't be allowed on twitter during celtic games especially in the playoffs because i i just know too much about my team and and i take everything too personally but you know i was calling for gerald green in game one i was sitting next to my dad i'm like we're gonna have to play gerald green they need one more guy on the perimeter who can at least make Chicago at least think twice. They just didn't have it.

So now they spread it out. They did basically what they did in Utah against Gobert. Spread it out. Bring the big guy out. Make him try to guard somebody that worked. I'll be interested to see with Rondo with his one hand whether it works. Haral, Bob Valgaris, it was a pleasure. I'm glad we did this.

It's been a long time. For sure. All right. Thank you. I'm on the way.