The Bill Simmons Podcast - Saving 2020 Sports, Bored Quarantine Tales and the 2000 Redraftables (The NBA Draft W.O.A.T.) With Ryen Russillo | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: April 6, 2020

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss when each sport could return and confront the possibility of no sports for the rest of the year (3:00). Then they list off the most bored things they’ve done during quarantine so far (28:45) before they revisit the shockingly disappointing 2000 NBA draft (65:28). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast and the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you by World Central Kitchen, their relief team working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals in communities that need support, take out for children and families, deliveries for seniors who can't venture outside. They're serving tens of thousands of meals daily in NYC, Washington, Miami, Los Angeles, many other big cities. They've also formed Hashtag Chefs for America, a coalition of restaurants and tech companies working together to provide meals to Americans that need assistance. And they're supporting local hospital workers, people, everyone who's on the front line working in wartime-like conditions, as well as local restaurants who've been impacted by the COVID-19 crisis. How are they doing that? By launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh hot meals to hospitals and clinics fighting

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to enjoy a free 90-day trial. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com and The Ringer Podcast Network where we have not stopped putting up stuff, including the rewatchables. We did Tommy boy put up a Thursday night last week. We have total recall on enemy of the state coming this week. We're also going to be doing one more redraftables beyond the 2000 draft that we're about to do with in the second half of this podcast doing 2001 2001 with my old friend Zach Lowe. So both of those are going up on the Book of Basketball.

And if you missed any of the ones we did last week, 96, 97, 98, 99, you can find all those on the Book of Basketball 2.0 podcast. Man, four weeks ago, did not expect that that would be the last time we had a normal Sunday night podcast with Priscilla. I hope everybody is staying safe, listening to doctors, listening to scientists, and trying to stay away from people until we can get through this. Hope your family is safe. Let's bring in our friends from Pearl Jam. All right.

Sunday night, Ryan Murcillo here. As always, only four weeks ago, we were arguing about LeBron versus Giannis and the MVP, and we had a whole rest of the basketball slate against us. And now this is just becoming the new normal. We had, I guess, the biggest thing that happened this weekend. The president, Donald Trump, talked to all of the commissioners,

except for the tennis commissioner, because did you know there wasn't a tennis commissioner, Russillo? I just found that out this week. I do now. Yeah. Seriously, that's good content for some of these shows. Should tennis have a commissioner? A block. Feels like it. So the tennis was not represented, but somehow the WWE was. And Trump

talked to all these commissioners about could we do some, how can we get sports going by September? And this is something that has been a recurring theme the last couple of pods I've done. I think people slowly coming to grips with the fact that sports might not be coming back until September. I want to do a czar sports thing, like if we were appointed co-sports czars but before we do that are you coming to grips with the fact that sports might be going away for a long time including football like we might have the rest of 2020 here with no sports i'm gonna make i'm not ready for

that okay i'm not i'm not ready for that yet uh yeah like i think like a lot of people you know in the beginning of anything uh i can't really say anything like this because we don't have anything to compare it to, but in the beginning, it's not something that I'd want to be right about in the prediction phase a few days in because you just, you don't know. And I think like a lot of people are probably realizing the magnitude and how much more serious this is. And any projections that we had even a couple of weeks ago seem ridiculous. I mean, even some of the stuff that was coming out, charts,

and I remember reading, oh, the mask doesn't really matter. And now everybody's being told you should wear a mask. Kids can't get it. Dogs can't get it. And then I saw something about a tiger getting it.

So, you know, I don't know what to believe anymore. But I do know that with uncertainty, that leads to, right. No, but I'm serious. Like it means with more uncertainty, it means less ability to come to some conclusion on this so when we did the podcast march 15th i believe is when i talked

to somebody you know different league sources and then a league office person that was like look we're kind of just collectively shrugging our shoulders on this and that was kind of 60 days out which would have been may 15th and then woj had the piece almost immediately that night while we were taping saying 90 days, which is even further out. So there's no news that we've gotten that makes us think that this thing is going to get figured out sooner than later. I guess I'm just still trying to be a sliver of an optimist here in that maybe if things calm down, people go, well, wait a minute,

maybe we don't have to just write off the rest of 2020. Cause I'm, I'm not there yet. despite the increase in magnitude. Can I ask you how they figured out that the tiger had coronavirus? Like, was the tiger a little sluggish? Was the trainer worried? Like, what's wrong with Tommy, the tiger? What's going on with him? He won't eat his meat today?

We should get him tested? And are we really wasting a corona test on a tiger? i'm not a big fan of some of the social media when somebody goes they got tested and it's like oh they got tested you know when i don't like the person's no there's sometimes when somebody's getting tested and you're like yeah i can kind of understand why that person got tested to have other people getting tested uh i can understand if you're listening you have a family member that hasn't been able to get a test or didn't get a test right away. But yeah, if you want to go ahead and say, must be nice, the tiger can get a test. I would probably be okay with that one. My son, my son is lingering because WrestleMania is starting. And I told him WrestleMania is the toughest kid in his class.

I told him WrestleMania started at seven. And I think he just figured out that I lied to him because I wanted to watch it to him after we did the pod. I'm pessimistic for sports because the more I think about it, what scenario is there where people are going to want to be in a crowd? I brought this up the last couple of pods, but now I'm doubling down. Unless there's a vaccine and everybody's like, no, there's no vaccine for 15 to 18 months, then we could flatten the curve. We could do the whole thing. Less people could have it. We could ease the burden on the hospitals, all that stuff. But eventually, if there's no vaccine and it's kind of lingering and then somebody gets it, it's just going to keep going. So I don't see a scenario where I'm in a crowd, I guess is what I'm trying to tell you. Okay. Before we address the crowd part of it though, because you are right. Like any part of this there, there's no part of this where I read something like when Trump says, Hey, after he praises his own ratings and make a joke about dating models and then is like, okay, let's get to the pandemic though. Now that I've got that out of the way,

let's get to the pandemic. I don't care that he's like, you know, football, zing, you know, a little zing, a little boom, you know, start tackling people September 1st. I could be sitting around with a bunch of astronauts being like, hey, what do you guys think about Mars? Like in two years, it doesn't mean anything. It means nothing. And that's not even being anti-Trump. That's just being pro-reality. And for him to come up with anything where I'm supposed to read some article where he sat with all the commissioners of sports and Trump says football by September 1st, this guy wanted the country ready to go by Easter because it sounded right. And this isn't even political. It's just simply, why am I putting any thought into like, oh, okay, that's going to change my mind?

Because it shouldn't change anybody's mind. Because you're right. It isn't just about the crowd thing. It's about the medical, I don't want to just say medical field, but their capability to be able to handle any of this stuff. And then the scary thing where none of us should have believed any number from China. I don't want to hear anything from China, nothing. And I also look at this as some of the stuff you could read where if the weather starts getting colder again, the start of football around that time, could we have this thing where it cycles back? We think we're through it, and then all of a sudden it kind of comes back. So then what? But I'm not deferring to you, but I'm following up on what you said. You can be anti-crowd, but don't you think that there's a lot of wins if people can find a way to just get these games on television with no one watching them live?

No one watching them in the venue. So we're taping this Sunday afternoon. My son and I watched WrestleMania Part 1 last night. There's no fans. I was kind of shocked how much I didn't like it. And you realize, now this is wrestling. This isn't like a real sport. It's not the NBA playoffs.

You sure? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Reasonably sure. What you realize with wrestling, wrestling was kind of exposed because you realize how much of wrestling is entrances and fans reacting to entrance music. And like, here he is, Ryan Russillo,

and your music's playing. You come out, you walk down the runway, you go into the ring, you stand on the top of one of the ropes and you do your thing, you stick your chest out. Once that's removed, all you really have is people fake fighting. And the best part of part one yesterday, which was also terrible, was The Undertaker has

this outdoor match that they film like a movie. So it was almost like a scene from Roadhouse. He's fighting AJ Styles. There are multiple cameras. They're doing a couple of stunts that maybe you wouldn't be able to do if it was a live thing. And it was actually pretty good. So wrestling was exposed. My question is, if we're just watching NBA players with no crowd noise, I just think it's going to be too weird. I don't see a scenario where I'm like, this is awesome. I can't wait for game five.

Like, I'll probably watch it because I'm bored. We're going to go to some- Probably. Probably. You're 100% watching it. We're both watching all of it. We both know this.

I don't know. I thought I'd watch all of WrestleMania and I made it an hour and a half. Okay, look. I'm sorry because there was no guy with a sign that says Tim and an arrow pointing down in the background that your enjoyment of it was ruined.

But to compare wrestling to any of this stuff that's real, you honestly think like game five of the NBA finals with no one there after you've become accustomed to no one being in the crowd? Well, the finals is different. I'm talking about like if we're talking round two. Oh, no way. What else are you doing? I don't know.

What else are you doing? Tell me what you would do. I just think it's going to be weird. It will be weird. But here's kind of what we're coming up on. I don't know. What else are you doing? Tell me what you would do. I just think it's going to be weird. It will be weird, but here's kind of what we're coming up on. I don't know if I'm going to like it. I'm just going to be thinking the whole time, this doesn't feel right. I'll probably talk myself into it. Here's what I think would happen, though, is that I've been a long believer in this, that if you want to change something about yourself, you have to kind of like make it through those 28, 30 days, right? If you want to work out,

you've got to find a way over the course of a month to go three or four days a week. And then after a month, it kind of feels routine. And then if you don't do it, something's missing. If you want to work on a book like you have, like it sucks to get started and you think everything's terrible. But if you just do a little bit each day, it's the same way with studying. If you read, if you're like, I never read, we'll read for like a month straight, a musical inch, any of this stuff. So in the beginning, it is weird. The wrestling thing is one of your first experiences, no fans in it.

So it should be weird. You should enjoy it less. But if we had weeks of NBA games, NFL games, baseball with no one there, I really think we'd accept it. It's as new normal with no one there, I really think we'd accept it as new normal where no one has to argue, is it actually better? Although first take would be hilarious. Be like, is the NBA actually better with no fans? Because of safety on the baseline?

It definitely won't be. So it won't be. I'm in agreement with you, but I honestly think everything should now be pointed towards what's the safest way to get this stuff back on tv because the players are going to lose money i know everybody thinks i'm pro owners i'm not but they're worried about their money um the television's part of this that's connected to right pro owner ryan pro owner rossillo uh the people that whether it's the ad revenue that espn has to make good back you know like those make

goods on stuff and then just the amount of things that could be connected to try to salvage some revenue stream for not just owners and players but a bunch of things around it the advertisements that are being sold all this stuff like people that'll lose their jobs and sales because that stuff is not coming in i'd have to think only if it's safe because the counter is no you can't do that and how many people can be working on a truck and all these different. I'd have to think only if it's safe because the counter is no, you can't do that. And how many people can be working on a truck and all these different things. I'd have to think that there's some sort of neutral location where they could get some of these games back on and the ratings would probably do well enough despite the fact that people be annoyed. They're, you know, France like fans up. That's what I would be working on and thinking

about the entire time right now. Can I tell you what I would do that would actually get me excited to watch it? I think the part I can't get around is how depressing it would be to watch these guys playing in a completely empty arena. I think the move. CGI? No. Avatar? If the Celtics were playing the Bucs in an empty arena,

obviously I'd watch it. I know I'm being dramatic. If they're playing each other at Equinox and it's like, hey man, did you hear about the run yesterday? The Celtics played the Bucs. And here in Equinox, yeah. Yeah. They were

just running. They just decided to play to 100. So maybe the key, if we're going to do this without fans, maybe you change the venues too. Maybe the Lakers play at Pepperdine. Pepperdine's like 1,000 seats. It's just a little more intimate.

Maybe you even go a little less. Maybe you just play in high school gyms. Maybe you pick, I don't know, some 500-seat high school gym and do it that way so it's contained and the noise will feel differently and it'll just kind of feel more fun. Maybe use different uniforms. Maybe you just got shirts and skins. I don't, I don't know. I just think if it's going to be different, like it should really be different. It just shouldn't be like, all right, here are the Lakers versus the Clippers in an empty Staples center. This won't be weird at all. Like, get, I don't know, get inventive with it.

All right, but so you're on that call. So I saw an agent the other day saying, you know, if I'm a player, do I have a right to not have to play, right? Could I point to the scare, the threat of the coronavirus? That number is going to be so minimal compared to the amount of guys that don't number is going to be so minimal compared to

the amount of guys that don't want to lose 25% of their regular season paycheck and then all of the playoff money on top of everything else. If you think of the 450 players, and obviously it's a bigger number than that. I mean, hell, in football, we had over 2,000 guys eligible to vote on the new CBA. What percentage do you think wants to get back to work especially in football to make sure they don't miss that paycheck so as weird as it is and i think your venue change thing is is fine if it's safer even better solution but really the only thing that should be mattering is we don't care how it looks we just want it on tv because it salvages something here and if i'm a player that's what i would be worried about so what's your purpose to keep going with no fans and like this kind of MacGyver?

TV revenue. That's it. So this is just money. That's it. Yeah. Why? Like, I'm going to say the thing now on the podcast that everybody else is afraid to say openly because no owner wants to come out and say like, hey, we're trying to salvage

this money. But if I'm a player, why do I want to lose money? Why do I want to? That is again, and I'm going to say this probably for the last time because it should just be accepted. That is again, if there's enough medical people that can say, well, this is actually doable and this doesn't put everybody in a really dangerous situation.

If you were of the belief that no one should ever be talking to anybody, you know, and everybody should be isolated, you know, I'm not going to be able to counter, you know, and everybody should be isolated. Um, you know, I don't, I'm not going to be able to counter an argument with you. The counter would be, they start doing this and like four days in, it turns out somebody has the coronavirus cause you know, some 22 year old he's out the night before and he's like, ah, fuck it. My two friends came over and then that friend had just, you know, been somewhere and all of a sudden somebody has it and now you have to stop the tournament again.

And you have a Gobert situation. That'd be one thing. So, well, you're right. I mean, everything that I'm presenting here is theoretically where the country feels better off 60 to 90 days from now. That, okay, you know what, this could be something that could happen. I don't think this thing's going to, I'm just watching the behavior of even like, you know, I think some neighborhoods have embraced this more than other,

but if you read the news, if you read the news, there's a lot of parts of the country where they're like, fuck social distancing. Don't tell me what to do. And it's just, I don't think this thing's going to go away the way it is. It's like, if you have it and you're in vicinity of somebody else, you're going to give it to them. And either they're asymptomatic or they're going to actually get it and they might carry it, not even know it and give it to somebody else. And I'm just really pessimistic about, you know, wait, with no vaccine, how does life go

back to normal? I think football will be the one because nobody's greedier than the NFL guys. They're going to figure this out. They're going to figure out a way to do it. And they're just going to do it. And their attitude will be like, look, we're plowing ahead. Even if this is like a 12 game season, whatever. But if you run that call call last night, me and you are the Cozars of football. Trump, I mean, Cozars of sports. And Trump's like, hey, I got all the commissioners on. Do you guys have a plan? I think the first thing in my plan would be like,

we got to have a drop dead date for baseball. It can't be, we can't just kind of drag along and play this by air. It's got to be like, if we don't start by this date, there's going to be no baseball. Like, what does the schedule for a season look like? What does the playoffs look like? It probably is like a 70 game season, right? Maybe more teams make the playoffs.

You have shorter series. But whatever version of it, it's lasting for about three and a half months. And there's got to be a drop-dead date for that because you don't want these guys playing. Even if they came back, they're not going to be playing baseball in like mid-November.

It's ludicrous. So my first thing would be, what is our drop-dead date to start baseball? So what is it july 1st july 1st spring training or starting the actual season you know what i would i just think spring training is a little different i mean the problem is pitchers you'd have to trust that i do think you know one of the things that has been better about sports is that because of instagram and because of everybody bragging about their workouts and all this stuff, even though some guys are totally full of shit. And just a side note to draft prospects pushing a car on wheels.

I don't know why we still think this is impressive in 2020. It's not that fucking hard to push a car on a road if it's flat. And then somebody the other day was like, this guy's doing it with a car that has brake lights. Do you guys realize that you can tap the brake and the brake lights go on, but the brakes are not engaged. And we actually were like social media believed in an offensive lineman was pushing a truck where the guy had pressed the brakes all the way down. All right.

All right. That rants over. So you have pitchers who'd have to make sure their arms are built up the right way. I think you trust that most of them did that. I think guys are so tuned in now to prepping their arms, getting them stronger. How would they do it, though?

You just do it. You go outside and you throw a baseball, and then you start doing it further and further. Then you do 15 bullpens, and then you do throws. I know, but what if you're on the Mets, and you have an apartment in New York City, and you're staying at your folks' house, and you don't have somebody to throw to

and you can't go anywhere? How do you work on your arm strength? I don't know that we're going to be... Yeah. We're not going to be good Cozars then because you don't want anything to start. No, it's not that I don't want anything to start.

I'd want to really try to figure out how many weeks would it take for these guys to be ready? I feel like they should be doing all this stuff now, talking to all different trainers and players and like, hey, if we just said it's go time, how many weeks would you really need? Figure that out. So is that 17 days? Is that 20 days? Is that 10 days? What is that? And then the second piece would be, all right, then what's our schedule? Are we doing 70? Are we doing 80? Are we going to do double headers? Should we do seven inning games? Should we try to do two games in one day to kind of move the schedule along? What's our plan there? And then what's the playoff plan? And how long is

that? How many teams make it? Are we doing best of three three i feel like they should be talking about this stuff now and i haven't heard anything because june is now two months away less you know right but why would i say on april 5th july 1st is our drop dead date for baseball and i don't know how anybody would say that why does nfl have to talk about week one being a jeopardy right now we don't know i mean do you honestly think you know what this you could be as negative as possible let me say i'll be as negative as you are i still why would i start making decisions in the beginning of april about what's happening september 1st especially if i'm football knowing that i don't have any like arena stadium uh crossover issues like i don't have to worry about it the way the NBA does.

Yeah. Baseball and basketball are in the clock. No, my question is, and I'm sure they're having these discussions. I would just love to know more about them. I think baseball should just start, you know, like I know that sounds, hey, the pitchers aren't going to be ready. Well, that's on you. That's on you to find a way to get as ready as you can through this whole thing.

Like, what are you supposed to do? Just sit around and not do anything? You could be playing right now anyway. We know there'll be guys that don't take it seriously. I think more athletes take it more seriously today. Instead of trying to do, let's do two the NBA is like, yeah, we might start having these horse competitions. You know what I'm up to right now? Go for it. My first thought isn't, let me tear apart your horse proposition. My first thought is, get as creative as you want putting anything on television. Yeah. I wasn't 100% against the horse thing. I was a huge advocate of it. I used to write columns about it and then they did it in 09 and 2010 and it just didn't work. And it's so funny, like what you have in your, in your head for what would be fun about horse isn't how it actually plays out when the guys are getting competitive, they ended up just shooting like 20 footers or 28 footers or whatever. And they're not like doing the Pete Maravich, like sitting on the floor, bank shots and stuff like that. They just don't play it that way.

So I don't know how you would make it more creative. I'm positive. I don't want Dwayne Wade involved though. That's the only thing I know for sure. Dwayne, you're retired. Like hang it up, Dwayne. It's over. Does this mean he could retire again? You retired four times. No, we've had four ceremonies for you. It's over. Just retire. It's fine. You're like the guy at the club who's 50,

who's hanging out with the 20-year-olds. Like, it's done. Hey, take it easy. For both of us. No, it's just these guys, when you're done, you're you should you know part of part of retiring is being graceful about it and turning it over to the young guys and now it's their league it's not your league anymore you retired you know what i it reminds me of is i have a decent sneaker

collection and some of it was sent to me over the years some of it was boredom um and i went you know what probably what are we doing here and i had a pair of the off whites that were really popular and then they were the the jordan ones the the blue ones and i saw a co-worker wearing them and i went i'm selling those this week And that's kind of what I think of when it comes to the horse competition. I don't know what the NBA is going to do, but I have the most confidence in the brain trust and the owners and silver and people like that out of all the leagues. How would you rank your confidence in MLB versus NBA versus NFL for just the IQ power in the room to actually come to the right decision on some of this stuff. Because for some reason, and I don't know whether it's because I love the NBA the most, but for some reason, I trust that group the most.

And maybe I should trust the NFL the most because those guys are ruthless, and they'll probably figure out the most ruthless way to do this. But I feel like the NBA will actually put real thought into all the variables to this. I'm glad you said that, though. I'm glad you said it that way because the initial reaction is, well, the NBA's probably the most adaptable. I think they're the most open-minded of any of the leagues.

I don't even think that's debatable. But if we're talking strictly who will get product on the television sets, the NFL is such a heavy favorite in this that Vegas has taken it off the board. Well, and the other piece is they'll just tell their players what to do. The NBA, the players will have,

you know, a relationship to the decision. I think ultimately it'll be a whole league thing where they all decide to do it i do think you're underestimating though 2 000 plus players that have a shorter window in the nfl going i don't want to lose any of these paychecks where the nba i don't think any of these guys really want to lose their paychecks you know but the number of nfl players that will say hey even though there's a little gray area, a little uncertainty, if things are, you know, things are coming around, we feel better about this, but there's still a level of danger. I don't care. I'm risking concussions out there. Like get me out there because I may

have three or four years of earning power. And I'm talking about a lot of the marginal players and all that stuff. Uh, and knowing that, you know, they've raised all the raised minimums for the new CBA. So we're Cozars. Trump says, Ryan, what do you think? What do you tell him? Just in general. It's like, Ryan, what do you think? I feel like I'm surprised that you're doing anything to help the NFL because I thought

you were still mad about not getting a franchise. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I thought about that. It'd be great. He's like, NBA, go. NFL, eh. Not true. Yeah. I thought about that. It'd be great. He's like, NBA, go. NFL, eh. Not good.

Sad. My pitch would be, like I already said, I've already done it. It would just be getting things on TV. It's not just about owners. It's not just about players. It would take care of a lot of other things. If there's some kind of product, can we get to a level that's safe enough where we feel good?

And if that means a bunch of teams quarantined in one city and run multiple games, you know, and I think after a while we'll get used to it. I think, I think it's weird as hell. The first time you're watching an NBA game or an NFL game with the one in the stands.

But I think after a little while you go, this is better than not having it. No, I watched three old playoff games today. Hey, let's talk about the return of the FX original comedy, What We Do in the Shadows. The Hollywood Reporter called the series' first season, quote, ridiculously funny and warned that, quote, you'll die laughing. Well, this season, Shadows continues to follow our four favorite vampires who have been living together for hundreds of years. I have multiple people in my life who love this show. What We Do in the Shadows

premieres Wednesday, April 15th on FX, streaming next day, FX on Hulu. And if you missed season one, catch up now on FX on Hulu. I'd like to give you my top five most bored things I did during quarantine so far. Okay. Number one, I signed my wife up for Survivor. Now, I don't know if she's going to get picked. What? For real? Yeah, I legitimately filled out a whole whole application i took a video of her talking

about how if she was on survivor um she'd probably win some challenges but not eating a lot and eating infrequently like would make her pretty hostile to other people so she'd be a great great character but ultimately they would they would kick her out so i have her talk about that in the video, but she didn't realize I was filling out an application for her. I did everything else and then I just sent it in. So you sent it in for real? I really did.

Oh, that's unbelievable. I sent it in for real. With all of her info and everything. Is signing your wife up for Survivor in 2020 the 2019 peloton gift if i think i it's been my dream to see her on that show for 20 years because she really would be good during the challenges she's a great athlete the problem is you know the whole thing of just like oh let's eat rice again i she would lose it And if somebody like fuck with the rice or ate half the rice and didn't tell the other people, she'd be like Swayze at the end of Roadhouse, just like cleaning out the tribe.

So that was number one. Number two, I watched seasons two through five of Melrose Place. Why did you skip one? Because I had already watched it. A million times. How do you feel about it now? I watched it pre-quarantine. I watched it. It's on CBS all access. And, uh, how do you feel about yourself now watching it? What are we talking like almost 30 years later, 27 years later? No, here's the thing. I like having TV shows on

in the background when I'm doing other things and when I'm doing emails, when I'm writing Google Docs, whatever. I like to have either music or some TV show that is kind of on, but I don't have to really monitor it. The third thing I did that just ties into it, I finally watched season one of Ozark, which had been one of those things where I'm like, ah, someday I'm going to watch that. I'm kind of saving it like a nice bottle of wine. There'll be some moment where I'll be like, all right, it's time. What better moment than a quarantine? That one I'm watching it. I'm not doing other things that I'm watching. It was like Melrose Place. It's just kind of on and just things are happening. People are having car accidents. Kimberly's pulling her wig off. Allison, it turns out her father was molesting her. Sydney's a call girl. Then she's running the call girl service.

It's all just kind of happening in the background for me. So that was number three. That show pushed the limits. It really did. It really did. Number four, I watched a lot of the 1991 Bruins Penguins series on YouTube. The Bees had a 2-0 lead. Huge 6-5 win in OT. Penguins series on YouTube. The bees had a two, nothing lead, huge six,

five winning OT. Um, unbelievable. Ray Bork that year. And then, uh, and then in game three, Samuelson cheap shot at Neely,

the series flipped, but it's like peak peak Lemieux. Um, it's peak Neely till he gets hurt. It's one of my favorite Bruins teams. And I was just enjoying all of it. So I devoured that. And then my fifth one is, uh, I was driving the other day and NBA TV was shown, was, was the NBA radio station channel 86 on serious. They were running for whatever reason,

game three of the 1995 finals between Orlando and Houston. They're running the radio broadcast of it at the time. And I got in the car and there was like nine minutes left. And I got to where I was going and there was like three minutes left. And I just sat in the car and listened to the end of it because I couldn't remember what happened. And what happened is they're up one at the end and Big Shot Rob makes the backbreaking three to win it. And they go up three nothing in the series, but Clyde Drexler is good. The announcers are into it. And it just felt like basketball. I was really excited to have it back. The crowd's going nuts. They're coming in at a commercial. They're talking about who

should foul who. I was like, this is great. This should just be on all the time. So those are my top five most bored things I've done. How about you? Can I just ask you a follow-up there? Yeah. Other than the survivor thing, how different are those four from the things you would do non-quarantine? I think YouTube deep dives have taken out a new level of desperation

where you're just like, hey, what happened in the 1982 NCAA tournament before the Georgetown-North Carolina game? You're just going in. That and then just the amount of TV I'm watching is just staggering. It's really, honestly. Do you like Ozark, by the way? Oh, yeah.

You're a Bateman guy, so that was a layup for me. Great Bateman. It's great Bateman. Great Laura Linney. I like shows where the husband realizes the wife's cheating on him, but kind of holds it for the information. And it's just kind of lingering for a few episodes. He knows, but she doesn't know. Or in this case, one episode.

But I just liked everything, how they dealt with that. Then it kind of circles back later. Ozark's good. It's a really good start. start i mean when you're starting a series and you're doing the pilot and all of a sudden the husband's watching a video of his wife having sex with somebody else like that's uh that's a wake you up moment yeah i mean nothing really tops billions where you know giamatti's being urinated on you You're like, okay, right. We got here. Here we go. Okay. We're, we're getting right into this.

Um, I did. I'm 12 in Ozark. So I got 18 left. I'll be, I'll be caught up by, I'll be caught up by next podcast for, for us.

Ozark, uh, continues the tradition of it's impossible to write a likable teenage daughter, right? Yeah. Isn't it? It's just an pot. Like no one's ever able to kind of, if the teenage daughter right yeah isn't it it's just sitting pots like

no one's ever able to kind of if the teenage daughter is a b or c character it they always come out unlikable although i do like um charlotte charlotte will grow on you no spoiler there and jacob who is the local running the heroin farm who speaks in a dialect that's different than others. He was one of the soldiers in Braveheart who didn't really feel like fighting, and also the drug dealer in Trainspotting, which kind of blows you away when you realize it. It's one of those shows, especially when you watch too many of them in a row, which I did. I probably watched 12 in 24 hours, where you start thinking, I could run a strip joint.

This couldn't be that hard, right? Lickety splits? I would have improved the girls that were dancing. Like that was, he's crediting, Jason Bateman's crediting the new manager, like good job upgrading the talent. It's like, well, that was a no brainer. Would have done that.

Maybe would have made a lot safer. Maybe the VIP room really laid the smack down and nobody has sex in there. But you just think of like these alternate universes where you're like, could I have run a strip joint? I think I could have. Could I have started a small casino on the river? Like, I feel like I could have figured that out.

But Ozark made me think of these things. I trust you to run a strip joint. Thanks. I would. I don't think I trust House. I'm sure- Now, House would get involved with the help. There's other people who have fly.

What would you call it? The BS review? I'd call it the ringer. No, just ringers. Ringers. What if you went to Spotify? Ringers is perfect. We don't even need to talk about it anymore.

Well, in Melrose Place, the bar that somehow Jake buys with $50,000, which I'm still trying to figure out the math on that. Commercial loan. Shooters. It's called Shooters. It's like we're going to hit on and out of Shooters. I always thought that was a good name. But Ringers, I think, would be...

Oh, man. What happened to you last night? Ugh. Rough night. Ended up at Ringers. Stayed till three in the morning. Just got cleaned out. I lost my credit card.

Yeah, I think that could work. It would suck having to go to Ringers to get your debit card the next day. There was the sketchiest, weirdest strip club and exit up from ESPN. Do you know the one I'm talking about? Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. So it was known. And I went one time, long, long time ago, and some people from work went. And one of the girls that we were with it was pretty funny because she called me the next day and goes i can't believe it you know she she got a little wild and she was like you know i had a wild night and i was like yeah no no problem no problem no problem she's like is there any way you can bring me to the place because i left my car

there and my debit card and i have to go in during the day to go get it and I was like as long as I don't have to go in I'll give you a ride yeah yeah there should be a phrase for that can you give me uh your top five most bored moments you had during the quarantine I started a book oh it's called the better book of basketball nice and I expect you to laugh more the look you gave me thinks like you thought that was a dick. Now it's called, um, letters to my younger self. So I'm taking that entire concept and it's just going to be 30 chapters. Great. Can I write the forward? Yeah, I'm actually looking for people to write the chapters and then I'm just going to publish. Oh, you're doing the Richard

Deitch. You're getting other people to write it for you. Wait a minute. Uh, I built a squat rack. I'm close to building a squat rack in my living room. So I moved all the furniture around. There's no kids running around, obviously. No wife. So I don't have to worry about that. So we're just going to go for it. Because if this is going for a few months, I got to adapt.

Set number two? I've tried to order as much stuff as I can. I have gone back and watched a bunch of games today. I watched game seven of the 2013 NBA finals, Heat Spurs. I want to talk to you about that. Keep going. I want to circle back to 2013 finals because I also watched a lot of that. Other members of the media, those that I'm close with, we're having kind of these side text thread debates about,

is it really great content? If you just post everybody else's videos on Twitter, there's a few people that have built up quite a following that way. And it seems like they're universally praised as somebody who strives to be creative and likes to acknowledge people's creativity. I think people that just post everybody else's videos for retweets and follows that it's actually not that creative. So that's something we do debating and probably wouldn't care that much about

if we didn't have this much free time. And I don't know. Let's see. Let me see here. That's a good one. I'm upset that I wasn't on one of those text threads. We can add you to it. I just don't understand what happens

when you see somebody else's great video and then you just save it and then you put your own caption, sometimes the same caption word for word, and you hit send and then you're psyched um but again if everybody just retweets it and you get a ton of followers then you're you're kind of doing what you're supposed to be doing but i just i don't know i think it's lame i think it's really fucking lame i've tried to do less twitter than ever that's good you're not missing a ton. Twitter's pretty dark right now. Yeah.

It's about as bleak as it's been. Especially because more people have more time kind of flooding. Yeah, you're right. No, you're right. I mean, Twitter, the great thing about Twitter is that it does kind of eventually

let everybody know who you really are. If you're on it long enough, I gotta go, oh, that's what this person's deal is. And sometimes it ends up telling us way more about that person than we want to realize. But anyway, last thing is I've been debating hobby stuff.

Got a lot of stuff in the shopping carts. Haven't hit checkout on any of it yet. I don't know what it's going to be. I don't know if it's an instrument. I don't know what. You know, smaller space over here, especially since we're opening a gym. So I'm not going to be. I don't know if it's an instrument. I don't know what. You know, it's a smaller space over here, especially since we're opening a gym. So I'm not going to have a ton of rehearsal area. So I don't know.

So part five is debating what the hobby is going to be. That's likely a purchase and something I never even look at 60 days from now. So we were talking before we went on about there should be an advanced metric. Maybe they can figure this out at the next Sloan Conference. How different your life is during a quarantine based on what it was like pre-quarantine. And if it's only like 20, maybe if the cutoff is like 40%, if it's less than 40% different than it was when we didn't have a quarantine,

it's time to reevaluate things. We were like, I was already alone all the time and never outside and watching a ton of TV. And the only real things that are changing for me is like that one night a week, I'm not drunk with my buddies or I'm not like, it's harder to grocery shop than by the, whatever the John Hollinger metric of uh, it's harder to grocery shop than by the, whatever the John Hollinger metric of that. It's time to reevaluate things and add a couple of hobbies. So like a QER? Yeah, QER.

Yeah, exactly. Where if you're in a quarantine and you're like, my life's not that different. Your QER is either too high or too low. I don't know what, cause like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that would mean. Yeah, right. What is a low QER is either too high or too low. I don't know what. I don't know what that would mean. Is a low QER good? This feels directed at me because whatever the QER formula is, mine's not that different.

I've said it the entire time. Other than the gym, other than that night that I get every few weeks out. No, you're out. You're playing hoops. You're doing stuff. You're coming to the office. I was thinking more of my dad because my dad's like, this is terrible. It's just home. I'm like, you're home anyway.

What's really changed? You're not going to Celtic Games. You don't get to go to dinner with your wife. He made the case. He's like, look, we went out to dinner a lot. We went to Celtic Games and I really liked walking the dogs and talking to my neighbors and those three things are now at the window I'm like all right good case

I made him work for it though I made him sweat it out but yeah the QER is QER I feel like it's still like 35 it's definitely not 50. I've wondered if you know in this, looking back, and the people that will write books years removed from this, if they'll argue that everybody needed some kind of resetting. So instead of the mental fix yourself resetting, and whenever you go to a bookstore and you look at the shelves, you go, how many possible self-help books can be written? How can there be 50 new self-help books this year? Who's saying shit that hasn't been said already? And a lot of times too, we're great at giving other people advice and never being able to execute it on our own. And this is all just theoretical, but will people argue that this time was this massive resetting that society needed so that we come out of this different, like come out of this a little more

positive, a little more appreciative. I think both those things will happen, but I thought that after 9-11 and it quickly faded away within a year. Absolutely. Like it was so cool to be patriotic there for a little while. And then it was kind of like, eh, all right, moving on. And yeah, we inherently become selfish again, but I wonder if there ends up being this resetting where anything is is lasting and that that's kind of hard to look it's it's nearly impossible to predict right now but it is something that i i think about a lot with this i forget where we started on that what was it with your dad no to follow up on that i do think it's weirdly made people appreciate their friendships more.

Like my wife is doing these Zoom calls with like six of her friends where they have a glass of wine and they shoot the shit. Before they used to do like, oh, we got to get lunch. And then it would be like every two months their schedule's a little line and they'd go get lunch. Now it's like they're weirdly more communicative with one another or just like in each other's lives because they're weirdly more, more, more communicative with one another or, or just like in each other's lives. Cause they're bored. Um, I, my dad's family, they do like a family zoom call every week now, like all his brothers and sisters and they weren't doing that before. So I do, I do think, and we said this last week on the pod that it has caused people to embrace some technologies that maybe they didn't fully

understand would be assets for them. You know, like, even like I look at the ringer, we, you always had to come over and do the podcast with me. Now we're doing it on zoom. It's basically the same thing. You don't have to be here to do it. Um, we're able to cut these videos and you just kind of adapt and go. So I do think there's been a couple of positives out of that. Um, I think people appreciate toilet paper more they definitely appreciate perel and clorox wipes which you still can't fucking find anywhere i don't know how i got clorox right wipes i got those early rats perel i'll send you a tub of those wipes if you need them um perel i'm out toilet paper was never a

huge issue solo although i did read a fascinating piece on toilet paper where it completely changed my mind it was like oh this is the psychological thing they had of these psychologists talking about just this mass shopping hoard shopping all these different things and this other guy's like no he's like you guys are all wrong because you're not going to work so you're not using toilet paper there you're not going to restaurants you're not using toilet paper they're like all these different places that you would normally use toilet paper you're now not using them so your usage at home has jumped higher usage rate yeah so exactly so it's not that people are buying it yes are some people hoarding it buying it not necessarily

but there's a reason there's a real mathematical reason that people are buying more toilet paper because they're using far more of it at home than they ever were before because no one's leaving their house. I thought that was like, oh yeah, that should have been easier to figure out. Poopage rate. All right. I want to talk about the 2013 finals and then we're going to do the 2000 draft, but let's take one break. Hey, we're all stuck inside right now trying to keep ourselves entertained, adjust to the new normal while still needing to work out and find different ways to be healthy and stay calm no matter what Twitter says. When we're stressed or forced to switch up our routines and don't sleep well, guess what? Our immune systems weaken and become more prone to getting sick. And the best natural way to boost our immune system is

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Enter Simmons at checkout to save 15%, sleep better, recover faster, train smarter, optimize your performance with Whoop. You and I have both been watching a lot of basketball. I was doing this anyway, just for the record. All the people who are like, oh, I watched the so-and-so finals games. This was just what I just like doing this anyway. The 2013 finals, I had not dove back into in a while. And they had a bunch of them. I think NBA TV. I can't remember what day they were, but it's been on.

And then there was another game that was on this weekend. The staggering amount of talent in that finals, which I didn't even really fully realize at the time because we didn't know Kawhi was going to turn into what happened with Kawhi. But you look at that finals now, there might've been eight Hall of Famers there, right? The four San Antonio guys and the four Miami guys in crunch time in game six, game seven, you might've had eight of 10 guys on the court as hall of famers. I don't think I fully realized that at the time I knew I remember I was doing

TV that year. And I remember game before game six, I did a whole thing that I thought Duncan was going to reach back and have this one awesome, great Duncan game. Cause they're up three, two. I thought this, he still has it in him a little like Shaq in 2004 in game 4 against Detroit he's going to really lay this smack down one last time and try to grab this title because he knows he doesn't want to go

to game 7 and I think he had like 25 in the first half or some crazy thing like that he wore down in the second half but Kawhi was awesome in game 7 Wade was really good in game 7 LeBron was great both games Parker was immense down was awesome in game seven. Wade was really good in game seven. LeBron was great both games. Parker was immense down the stretch in game six,

wasn't good in game seven. It was just so much fun to watch all those guys on the court. What stuck out with you with game seven? Two dramatic things. LeBron was really everything in that third quarter, and then every possession was him dictating it and still seeing as much as we appreciate how gifted physically he still is 35 uh even though 35 it's it's not the normal 35 year old athlete it's a guy with all of those minutes right and he still has

moments with these Lakers where you're like I can't believe he's still doing this but then whenever you force yourself to like jump back at five years you go oh it's actually harder to watch the decline in normal progression as opposed to going back and be like, oh, okay, wait a minute. Now I see what's different here. Like I remember you talking about Westbrook in that Warriors series going, oh, my God, like go back and look at Westbrook. Because I still have moments where I watch Westbrook now and go, he's the best athlete I think I've ever seen in the game. And you just have to go back and go, that's right. That's what it's like when it looks like a guy is in his young 20s. And here, LeBron was just five years ago, and it still is different. But every possession was him.

And every time something got bottled up, then he would find somebody else. Battier started five of five from three. He's really beyond LeBron's dominance in this and dictating everything that was happening on offensive possessions in the second half. Battier, you argue, wins this game after a bad game six. The closing group was Chalmers, Battier, Bosh. A lot of Chalmers in this finals. Like a shocking amount. Exactly. Ray Allen played less than 20 minutes

and he didn't score in game seven. And he's not on the court there towards the end. I'll save the Bosch part for later, but Ginobili is a mess. He has three huge turnovers in the last six and a half minutes of this game and just blowing those possessions. One, the ball goes out of his hands, out of bounds. Another one, he just whips it out of bounds. And then on the last possession, after LeBron hits what's an elbow jumper, that's basically for an NBA title. And that's something that's always bothered me, the way we look at clutch. And it's hard to keep track of all this stuff, okay? There's tons of things that I forgot from this game that I've

watched probably twice before. But LeBron hitting that elbow jumper is about as clutch as it can be without the clock expiring because that's it, game seven to win an NBA title. That's the shot. And it's never thought of. It really isn't unless you're a heat fan or like the biggest LeBron fan. And we just have a hard time ever giving credit to any of these things that aren't in the last possession. When to me, that shot's just as clutch as the shot,

the clock expiring in some ways, maybe even harder in a way. Cause you're like, Hey, there's a play that's still open here. And in game six. So they're, they're about to lose the title

heading into the fourth quarter. And he plays one of the best nine to 10 minute stretches of his career. Like he is absolutely every version of, you know, all the different pieces he had in him of, oh, he's a little bit of magic. Oh, there's a little bit of T-Mac in there. Oh, there's a little bit of Karl Malone in there.

Oh, there's a little bit of Larry Bird. It's just like the full package for nine, 10 minutes. And then he ends up missing the first three when they're down five. Four spurs are under the basket. The thing ricochets back so fast, none of them get the rebound. Wade tips it out, ends up coming back.

LeBron makes the second three. But in general, him in those two games and him that season, I feel like that was peak LeBron. That was the 27-game winning streak. That was the season when he was, it seemed like conceivable he might shoot 60% the first two months. Remember that? When it was like, could LeBron shoot 60% for a season?

I just thought he was at the peak of his powers. That's right. I hadn't even thought of that. I was like, could LeBron shoot 60% for a season? I just thought he was at the peak of his powers. That's right. I hadn't even thought of that. And game seven, you know, between that game seven and then the 2016 game seven, the game seven in Boston in 2016, there's some other ones. It's funny how he eradicated the whole

LeBron is a choke artist thing that started for mostly silly reasons in 08, 09, and 2010. And then 11 was when it really kicked in in the finals, when he kind of fell apart in the Dallas series. He did. And from that point on, was able to kind of flip the narrative on that. Yeah. The criticism of Dallas is totally justified. I mean, I don't think you have to... Imagine going through life where you're handed a jersey

and it's like you're on the red team at nine and then you have to stay on the red team for the rest of your life. That's how we handle some of these opinions where you just go, it's fair to point out that LeBron was underwhelming against Dallas and Dallas did a really good job concessually against him and it went further in that though because he

definitely kind of broke him in some ways in that series where you know even like being in the building it was like his brain couldn't totally solve what they were doing all the different ways they were building a wall in the middle so he couldn't drive.

They were fucking with him when he was on defense. And just, it was like their whole initiative, that whole series was, how do we knock LeBron mentally out of this and make him start second guessing himself? And he did. And I think- He did, yeah.

I think it ended up being the best thing that ever happened to his career because from that finals on he's a different guy so when i look back at the game six ending and i don't want to spend too much time on this but it's just because lebron had had that turnover that was bad at 39 seconds on the kawaii play and then yeah the little alley later yeah yeah it's like he he was having these plays at the end. You go, oh, my God. But just think, like, Ginobili gets fouled at 28 seconds. He misses that first free throw, makes the second. They're up 94-89.

They should have been up 90. They should have been up six with 28 seconds left in that game. Now, I know Spurs fans will look at it and say, well, you know, you win that one, you win the back. I don't know that. I think it's much like your Bulls theory, which you were the first one I've ever heard say it, is anybody that wants to give Michael eight straight

just because it took those two years off is giving him credit for the two that he missed, but then not factoring in that you really think he's going to be able to keep up. There's no way. I just don't think. I would bet against it, even though I would never want to bet against MJ in anything.

I don't think the Spurs come back and win the next year because they constantly, as you know this, their singular focus all year long, talking to people that are around them, that just shows the toughness of the entire organization and the makeup of those guys, is that they were mad. I mean, they started game one the next year mad, feeling like Miami got their title, and they carried it out and I thought smashed them in the finals there. But Manu misses that free throw in six. And then he had those three turnovers.

And then after that LeBron elbow jumper, really to win it in game seven, they ran a play where Manu's going to go baseline and get it back to Duncan. And he turned it over there too. So watch it again today. You're like, man, like Manu just had a tough stretch. I remember the Spurs were shooting on the basket where our set was in the fourth quarter game six and seven. And I, I think

they're down two with like maybe 40 seconds left, something like that. Which year? In 2013. And, and Duncan had a little bunny. He had like a little five footer with bad A on him and a shot that he's made 10,000 times. And he like back rimmed it and it spun out. And then Miami had the ball, they had the momentum. And I remember Duncan going back and I think somebody called a timeout and Duncan just like slammed the floor and was like really just so pissed. But he knew like that was the moment. Like I, that game was a lot closer.

I'm glad you watched it. Cause I always felt like that game was a lot closer and a lot more excited than people remember. Everyone remembers that series for the Ray Allen shot. Game seven always felt like that game was a lot closer and a lot more excited than people remember. Everyone remembers that series for the Ray Allen shot. Game seven is a really good game. It's really well played in those teams. You know, the Spurs broke them the next,

the next year you go back and you look at, at the 14 finals, those last three games, they were up. The Spurs were up 20 plus. I think they won by like 19, 19 or more each game. Like they killed Miami in that series.

They wiped them out. They sent them home and they ruined the LeBron dynasty. That was it. He left. Yeah, Miami lost game one of 14 by 15. They won game two by two. So they split in San Antonio.

Then they come home to Miami and lose two straight by 19 by 21. And then game five is a 17 point loss and what san antonio did i think it was kind of an early three-point barrage preview of what we were going to start seeing yeah it just felt like there were stretches those guys couldn't miss and when i watched the game 713 thing like today you know kawaii was not a major part of the offense he was an afterthought and it isn't wrong like he still was somebody where you're going i don't know what he's going to be. So you can't go back and be like,

oh, you need to get the ball to Kawhi more. But he had these moments going, hey, there's a lot of times where no one can do anything with this guy. Offensive rebounds around the glass, always being in the right place, hitting a big three. He did back rim one.

I think he had 16 boards in game seven. But if you're watching what Miami was doing off defensively, they were just completely leaving him alone like he's they were packing in the middle trying to double team people and whoever was defending kawaii kawaii's just five feet by himself you you know and i think by the next year he could shoot threes and you couldn't do that anymore but that year you could yeah that's that's right because it was kind of this way to me kawaii this guy who's this really nice player you'd love to have him on your team like wait a minute he's gonna start draining

threes like what what's going on here and he's still so young but the other thing that happened in uh in 13 was parker was hurt and in game even in he was always like is he playing i think he might have even sat out one of those final games and And in game six, he was the guy that Miami couldn't stop. That was why Chalmers had to play so much. None of the other guys were going to... Dwayne Wade wasn't going to defend Parker. But in game seven, he sucked. And he sucked because he was hurt.

In game, in 2014, those guys were healthy. It was a different story. But the Parker injury was the secret factor of that 2013 series. This is also that 13 stretch for Miami where I know people have a hard time with my Bosch position, but I know he's going to make the Hall of Fame

because it's the Basketball Hall of Fame. And you look at the Eastern Conference Finals against the Pacers, he played 30 plus minutes in that series. In the games four, five, six, and seven, he scored seven, seven, five, and nine. And then in this game seven, we're talking about now in the win against Spurs, he played 27, 28 minutes, he had zero points. And he did a really good job with Duncan. And Duncan made some tough shots on him because it's Tim Duncan. But you could see other times where Duncan would get frustrated by Bosh and the fact that Bosh could

hang there defensively. All of those things are positive. And I understand what that is with Bosh, but zero points in a game seven of the NBA finals. And no one ever says, I don't know, he just has a lot of games where he doesn't score at all in big playoff spots. And we can talk about Wade and LeBron and all those things and all the shots weren't there for him. I mean, 1-6, 3-7, 1-8, 3-13, 0-5. I just, I think sometimes Bosh, because he was on that team and the team success, there's just, I don't know what I'm trying to say here.

I guess I'm just like, Bosh to me is not a superstar. He was always, he was always one of those guys that I just was overqualified for the spot he was in. Definitely. I'll give you that. So I look back, game seven against the Celtics in 2012, when he made, I think, the biggest shots in the fourth quarter. He made two or three monster threes that enabled Miami to pull away. He was eight for 10 in that game. He made three threes. And I think two were in the last quarter, 19 and eight.

But I thought he was awesome in that game. Like I thought it's kind of a thankless role to be the third guy. It's not, they're never going to be like, oh man, we got to get Chris a touch. Let's get him in. Let's, let's get Chris more involved. Cause you're just not, you're not going to do that. So he almost had to like be the Draymond of that team.

And I always felt like he was a little beneath him. And I think he was fine with it. But I do think before he had his ailment where his career basically gets derailed, I think that would have been a really fun stretch for him once LeBron and those guys left. When Houston was trying to get him, he ends up going to miami and it was going to be his team i think he would have been back to being like a 25 and 11 guy again and we just never had to see it he put up big numbers um at you know we know what the toronto numbers are but yeah they were empty calories right as i've said before i mean there's no playoff moment for Bosch in Toronto other than 39 and a loss in

game four against the magic and his second year in the second year in the playoffs. But I also thought it was interesting when I went back and looked at it, I go, wait a minute. Spolstra played him 27 minutes. Oh, that's right.

It was fouls. He had five fouls. So he played only 27 minutes in that game, but Hey, just didn't score. I mean, this is, this is not,

it's not even a knock on him. I just, I just think sometimes Bosch depends. If you're a heat fan, you think he's a superstar. If you're not, maybe you forgot. And if you're me,

you think there are moments where you forgot he was out there. And, you know, when we're talking superstar hall of fame, I just think that we should be a little bit more, uh, well, people were surprised.

The right word or what, but people were surprised when we were both saying Antoine Jamison was going to be a Hall of Famer. And I wasn't saying it like he should be a Hall of Famer. I just think he's going to get in because 20,000 points gets you in the Hall of Fame. I think the standards are low. They are. Like, they are.

That's always my... Like, whenever anybody's like, hey, do you think... I don't even need you to finish the sentence. Usually, I'm just going to go, yeah, probably. Rudy Tomjanovich made it. Did he deserve it he's averaged 20 points for a few years he

was a good forward he was never like a top 10 guy in the league and then he coached to two Rockets title team so I guess the totality of that but like at some point now does I don't know I don't I don't I just don't know what the line is anymore I can't wait for you to don't know what the line is anymore. I can't wait for you to get in.

It's going to be unbelievable. When I get... Oh, the Kurt Gowdy thing? Yeah. You're 50 now. I'm kind of surprised you haven't gotten it yet. It'll be after I'm dead. They'll be like,

oh, we should give it to him. And he won't be here. Yeah, if you get really sick, they'll give it to you. And then if you die, you'll definitely get it. But they won't want you to get it now. Let's do it. The 2000 Redraft. We're going to take a quick break. Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on

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Make the move. Listen to podcasts on Spotify. Back to yours. Alright. So we've been redrafting. How about the fact that we didn't realize we should be calling this the redraftables? Took a reader last week to send an email being like, hey man, why aren't you calling these redraftables?

Like, I don't know. So we've done 96, 97, 98, 99. You are calling them that? Yeah, we're calling, 99. Uh, one was on your feed. Yeah. We're calling them redraftables now. It's just better. I just thought when I, yeah, I don't know. I thought that that was what it was, but I guess better for the poster guy. Yeah. So, uh, you can find all the old ones. If the easiest way to find them is on the book of basketball pot,

or you can search for Sola's archive for one. You can, we did this one last week. We did 2000. The real reason we wanted to start this whole redraftables thing was just to do the 2000 draft. This is our favorite draft. It is. I wrote once that the best thing anyone ever said about this draft was, well,

at least nobody ever killed someone from this draft. I, that might be the most praise you could go. The, the, the stats are incredible. Only five guys out of 58 potentially could have been like a real important starter on a playoff team.

There were seven lottery whiffs. Stromile Swift was the number two pick. We had a Prisbilla dueling Moiso Thomas Alexander Cleaves Collier run for six straight picks from nine to 15. We had the 17th through 23rd picks were better than picks two through 14. We had the poor Clippers

who had 310 and 18 and it turned out to be the worst draft ever. So they're rebuilding thing. And there's more facts we'll get into, but this draft was bad in the moment and there were a facts we'll get into, but this draft was bad in the moment. And there were a lot of reasons for it, which we've talked about in other pods where the one and done and the high scores and all that, it was just depleting the possible draft assets. Sometimes with draft classes, you just have bad luck. It ebbs and flows depending on the year. But we knew

it that college season because it was a lousy college year. Can you name the four best guys in the 2000 National Championship title game? Is that Mateen Cleaves? Yeah, there's one. Moe Pete? Yeah. Do you remember who he played? Didn't they play Florida?

Yeah. Mike Miller? Yeah. Mike Miller? Yeah. Andrew DeClercq? Udonis Haslam, 18 years old. Udonis Haslam, ah, damn it. You were a big Teddy DuPay guy back then. I love Teddy DuPay.

Still holding out hope, keeping your fingers crossed. But that was when we're- They used him the right way cleaves sprains his ankle in the second half and still ends up being the mvp of the final four but it was the first bad college basketball tournament we'd ever had it was up until through 99 it delivered the goods year after year and that year it was like what's going on it was like one of those summer movie seasons where there's just no good movies you're like what's going on? It was like one of those summer movie seasons where there's just no good movies. You're like, what's going on?

Where are the movies? So- But it was good for Izzo though, by the way. It felt like Izzo needed something there to then be, because I just think the world of Izzo. So I wanted, like whenever you were getting arguments about which college coaches you like, because it's fascinating in the basketball world,

like how many people think some of the biggest name coaches at the biggest name programs that have had these unbelievable careers, they think they're absolutely terrible in-game coaches. Right. Where Izzo would be the guy that gets all that respect. And it just, Izzo's, the whole consumption of Izzo

would have been dramatically different had he not pulled that one off. So this draft, the Nets had the first pick, Vancouver second, Clippers third, Chicago fourth. Our top four were Kenya Martin, Strohmeyer Swift, Darius Miles, and Marcus Fizer. Orlando, Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland were the next four. Mike Miller, DeMar Johnson, Chris Mim, Jamal Crawford. And then we finished it out with nine through 14, Houston, Orlando, Boston, Dallas, Orlando

again, Detroit, Joel Prisbilla, Keon Dooling, Jerome Muis Orlando, Boston, Dallas, Orlando again, Detroit, Joel Prisbilla, Keon Dooling, Jerome Muiso, Etan Thomas, Courtney Alexander, Mateen Cleaves, Jason Collier went 15. It was weird when it was happening. There was not a

lot of excitement. There was enough of a dearth of prospects that Darius Miles all of a sudden became super exciting. He was from St. Louis. There was some KG stuff with him where it's like, this could be another KG. But if you actually watch the clips of him in high school, there's no resemblance to KG at all. He's basically a 6'11", jump shooting small forward who can't shoot but a good athlete fun carried himself a certain way but i i don't know how the kg thing started and uh and just a mess all the way around when you look at when you look at just the first round

what jumps out i just need to clean up something here i was thinking of danelle harvey florida de clark is still on my mind because of the 96 draft that we did. So DeClercq had declared years earlier. So I just want to make sure I clean that up. Darius is big for me because he was supposed to be going to St. John's. And St. John's was still pretty relevant. And our test had just been there. Eric Barkley's in this draft too. And Eric Barkley could score. But he, like a lot of guys, was just another big-time scoring undersized guard but he like a lot of guys was just another big time scoring undersized guard that never gets a sniff of the NBA after the first couple years so Miles was

supposedly going but you're right like I went back and watched the beginning of this draft on YouTube it was a TNT broadcast which I do want to bring up with you later and after Kenny Martin goes one it's we're still in this new world, which you wouldn't have thought of, where they're like, man, five straight underclassmen and Darius Miles. And you're just like, oh, that's right. It was still weird. And people would be complaining. A Dick Vitale would come on and be like, how come you're not taking Mateen Cleaves? I remember him losing his mind that Mateen Cleaves didn't go higher

after he'd had this epic run, because that's Vitale, what he does. He just gets super mad at the older kids. He used to do it ad nauseum. And you're just like you're just like well that's and honestly Mateen Cleaves went higher than he should have even in a bad draft because it just people kind of kind of see Mateen Cleaves and go yeah I don't really think he's a good pro even though this whole class was so bad so that was kind of the thing that going back and watching the YouTube cuts of the draft picks and the analysis where even though it's 2000, which yes, it's 20 years ago,

but it doesn't feel that long ago. It still felt like this uncharted world of look at them taking all these underclassmen. So some facts, Kenya, Martin and Michael read the only guys who earned more than a hundred million in this draft, only four cracked 50 win career shares,

Turk, Lou, uh, Mike Miller, Michael Redd, Jamal Crawford. Only five played 20,000 career minutes, which is like normally that number is double figures. There were only three all-stars from this draft. Michael Redd, Kenny Martin. That's impossible. Jamal McGlure.

This is even better than only three all-stars. Only 61 combined all-star minutes from this draft. Everyone in this draft played 61 minutes of the all-star game. That's just being dirty. That's like, wait a minute, only three? I mean, three all-star selections for an entire class, ever. Not three guys were all-stars, three selections. And then our research department decided to be even meaner

with that minute total. Is this Zach? No, I'm getting to him in a second. I had two more for me. 11 of the first 15 picks played less than 12,000 career minutes. 11 of the first 15. Six of the first 15 picks played fewer than 350 games. So now Zach Cram from the Ringer,

he had a couple extras here. We call these Zachs. Michael Redd, the only person who made an all-NBA team, he made an all-NBA third team. This is the only time in recent draft history, like in the modern era of the draft, where only one person from a draft made an all-NBA team.

The players, we mentioned now only three All-Stars. The second lowest total from the lottery era for players from a draft making the All-Star team was 13. This was great.

Say that again. The second lowest in the lottery era, so we're going back to 85 here, is 13 All-Stars. 13 All-Star games. 13 All-Star games. 13 All-Star games. This one had three games.

Three games total. You don't even need to say anything else. It's the only draft ever in the latter era without multi All-Stars. There was not a single guy who made more than one All-Star team. And then an average of 13.7 career win shares, the fewest for any draft in the latter era. So it's just a train wreck all the way through and through. Fortunately, there was a lot of comedy.

We had Reggie Theus interviewed Elgin Baylor and described him after as, quote, a veteran of the lottery process. He said this with a straight face. Like this is a compliment, an asset. He's a veteran of the lottery process. You know what that means? You suck as a GM when you're a veteran of the lottery process.

So that happened. That's the nicest way to say you suck as a GM. That's amazing. That's like when they call some local radio host like veteran, local so-and-so. It just means you've bounced around locally and worked at a bunch of different stations. So we had an all stiff draft night trade

of Joel Prisbilla for Jason Collier to future number one. That happened. We had a green room watch with somebody who didn't even end up being good, Jake Teskalitis, who I think you were in on a little bit. Teskalitis.

Yeah. He fell to 25 because people were worried about his contract. Yeah. They should have been worried about his talent. We had a surprising moment when the Clippers took Miles third. Nobody saw that coming. And he came out.

It took him forever to come out. He had a cream-colored suit on, put a blue Clippers hat on it. And he legitimately hugged Stern in a way that in 2000 was not something we saw at the draft. So Rip Hamilton and hug Hug Stern the year before, this one was almost genitals to genitals. Now we see like Goodell's hugging everybody, but normally you just shook hands, maybe a shoulder tap. Miles went in for like a real hug.

Like he was catching up with an uncle at Thanksgiving or something. So that made it first. And then after that, Charles Barkley was doing this this draft and he just went nuts on the Clippers. And this was right after he had retired. We were getting, Oh, could Barkley be the next Madden for these drafts? Barkley said, I don't think the Clippers are a good environment for miles. They're a terrible organization. I hope he gets out of there. The Clippers are one of the problems in sports. The perfect example of team that lets all their good players go every year. They're giving their fans a bad product.

It just went in on them. And it was the first exciting draft announcing moment in the history of the draft where somebody actually was going in. We also had... Oh, my favorite moment for my dad. I did the draft diary that year. The Bulls took somebody named Dalibor Bagaric. Yeah.

Number 24. At this point, we had the Sporting News where they had mock drafts at this point in the Sporting News. And my dad looked down and he said, he's not on my list. And just seemed more confused than anything. Dalibor Begarich. It was like, where did this guy come from? He's a big German. So, yeah.

A lot of... Three years of the Bulls. Three years. We're going to redraft. So each one, ranking the guys from super duper stars of five, quality starter is a one, all-star is a two-star. This is the only draft we're probably ever going to do where there's no two-star guys. I think, would you, would you rate? You don't have one two-star? Yeah. I think Kenny Martin, I would rate him as a quality starter. I wouldn't rate him as an all-star. Would you? And you mean

perennial all-star? Just like all-star. Was there an all-star in this draft? I think the answer is no. Michael Redd had a really nice stretch. He did. It took him a while to get going, but I know once we get to him and that whole thing, because he was a second rounder,

and I think if you look at the cumulative stats, the analytics, he holds up well compared to all these other guys. So we can either do the analytics, you know, he, he holds up well compared to all these other guys. So we can either do the redraft or whatever, but I would like to just, before we do that, I want to ask you because you got to do the draft at ESPN.

And as I've said, 2000, you go back and you look at the production, it's TNT. I'd be saying the same stuff. It was ESPN. Cause I don't really care. We know Ernie's a glue guy backbone keeps the thing you know going

in the right direction but you had john thompson up there who didn't know anything about anybody hubie who didn't know anything and then they brought by rick mageris for like comic relief and he actually it's just fascinating that even in 2000, we would have the NBA draft on television, and you wouldn't really have anybody that you knew was putting in the time and doing the scattering reports. And the NBA hadn't really had, I mean, this is even pre-chat, Ford being on the radar, and now we have a bunch of different guys that are locked into kind of that draft thing.

But I don't know what I'd want, though. I go back and watch it. Majerus said at one point no no Hubie said this Hubie said that that our test is better as a two guard struggles as a small forward and then he turned into one of those best small forwards in the league um when they were talking about like rosters and how people fit and people freaking out about Chris Mim not going to the Bulls because the Bulls needed size and so what the guys guys were doing, because they weren't putting any time into it, you could just tell that they're like, all right, the Bulls don't have a center.

They have Elton Brand. Well, they got to take Chris Mim. And like Thompson would say, oh, I saw this kid play. And he'd be like, oh, wow, John Thompson saw him play in high school and then would follow it up with like really no depth to it. So it was a bunch of people on the desk for this really important night that you and I probably take too seriously. And you go, that's amazing that you could have a TV product.

And this isn't like it's 1978. It's in 2000. And nobody, they don't have anybody there that actually put in real depth and real scanner reports. And I'm thinking, is that just because nobody thought and wanted that? Did we just want big names? Because I remember even at ESPN, we'd have Stephen A., you'd have Mark Jackson, you'd have Van Gundy. None of those guys were watching any of this stuff they're not on synergy or second spectrum breaking all that like i remember steven a there was a pick he goes well i've he's like i've never seen the brother play but i hate this pick and i was like what the fuck like so i don't

know what i want right like what is it that i? Because sometimes the stuff I want may be a boring television product and you got to do it. And I'm sure there were times where you felt like, Hey, we're doing the wrong thing and we should be doing this. And the TV guy probably telling you you're wrong. Right. I, I feel like everybody has to have a role. I thought we did a good job with the draft, but we, everybody had a role. Like Billis was the college guy, which is sorely missing from the 2000 draft telecast you just talked about, because John Thompson's not going to say anything.

I don't even think he was in college anymore at that point. But Billis is the guy who... No, Escher could take it over by then. Go ahead. Billis was the guy who had seen all these guys play and then was crunching tape on them and doing the thing, so you could trust him. Jalen, I think, at least the first year

was still on the college show. So he was at least seeing these guys in person, had a feel for them, but could talk more about, you know, like what's it like, what you're like at college versus what you could blossom into. And then my thing was more trying to figure out

what the teams were doing, you know, and that's stuff where you really need somebody out there who's like, oh, they're doing this because they have these guys eligible for free agency and they've got it, blah, blah, blah. And you just got to know all the moving chess pieces. And that's not something you can study. You have to either know it or you don't know it. And that was something where even when Van Gundy was on,

Van Gundy's brain, like he doesn't know what the cap situation and stupid shit like that. You kind of have to know that stuff on the fly because there's trades too. And if a trade happens, you have to go, all right, well, why'd they do that? Well, what's the purpose of this? And almost like react like we would on a podcast. So it's a night that has a lot of moving pieces. And if you have people that aren't totally versed on at least whatever their specialty is supposed to be, it's going to go really badly. But nobody cared. Nobody cared in 2000, though.

This wasn't like a huge event back then. But I've seen ESPN lineups were, and I understand, like, I think TV tv executives they err on the side of names where they go let's put our biggest stars on these shows and we'll figure it out but i really think if you're going to have a draft on and it's going to be five hours of this stuff like the shtick and the zings like after a while like if you don't know anything about the players um i got to the point where i stopped watching on tv i mean i did it six years for radio yeah and i said the only way i'm doing it is an analyst i'm not going to host it and they wouldn't they wouldn't even let me on the radio one for a bunch of years and then after like the first year they go can you come back next year and i was like yeah

no problem and then you know a couple years i did did it with scott after the fact which is great i mean i couldn't believe it like here I was after the draft is done. I'm on sports center with Scott Van Pelt breaking the whole thing down. And it was, uh, you know, cause I worked pretty much nonstop on it. And, um, I don't know. I just watching in 2000, I'm going, this was, this was like considered good. And that would get destroyed if it happened. Now, if somebody said, Hey, let's just put a bunch of NBA cronies on

and we'll wing it. I really like doing it. The shocking thing about it that I hated was how fast the picks came because it was five minutes between picks. So the guy walks out, he shakes hands, then he has the interview with whoever, and that's like three and a half minutes. And Billis is doing his whole breakdown. That's a prepackaged thing.

And then you basically have like a minute to react before the next pick, which isn't, you know, you're talking like lottery picks. Like when Cleveland took Anthony Bennett, we could have talked about that for 15 minutes, but it's like, all right, on to the next one, who's number two. And it's like, Cleveland just took a guy who, if they didn't take him there, might have fallen out of the top 10. We should be talking about this. So I wish it was 10. I personally think the lottery should be its own night.

And I would make it 14 picks. That's it. 15 minutes between picks or 12 minutes between picks. Let's really go into this and make it like a dramatic night and then do the rest of it later. But I, I think I'm the only one who would probably want that. I would like it,

but we're wrong. We know we're wrong on this. Yeah. Cause they wanted to move and they want to get everything done in one night, all that stuff, but it should at least be for the lottery. It should be 10 minutes between picks or eight minutes or something. You should get more time.

Cause it's, you know, you've got so many different people on it. You'd have now that Woj is part of it who really is the most important thing because he knows all the moving pieces of all this stuff but when you don't have the news guy you need a news guy you need somebody who's seen them play and then the other thing that's tough and this is where billis's role is really challenging despite what an authority is on the college game in comparison to most of the people that he's sitting on the set with over the years when I've watched it on ESPN,

is that it's really tough to go up there and just let me, I'll just pick Laurie Markkinen, right? You know, because I actually think Laurie Markkinen could be okay, set back a bit this year. But like say Laurie Markkinen's taken seventh and Billis goes, this guy sucks. Total stiff fraud. Can't dribble. Can't shoot. You can't really do that, even though that would be the best. It would be awesome if somebody just decided, hey, that's who I'm going to be on one of these draft shows, NFL or NBA. You don't have to say sucks necessarily, but

everything is spun into a positive because there's this very delicate thing of not wanting to ruin a kid's night. Well, that was a big thing for Jalen, especially because you could hear, the people in the arena could hear us at least one of the years. But Jalen was like, this is the best night of this kid's life. I'm not going to trash the pick.

I'm just not going to do it. And I was in the spot where it was like, all right, there's going to be some bad picks and we're going to have to like dance around. You know, oh oh man why'd they do that but you can't the guy's whole family's watching so it's definitely a delicate balance true true or false did you feel more comfortable trashing a euro pick just because the language barrier no i i loved it i i gotta say i was most fun i've had on tv were the two

drafts i really had a good time because i was such a fan of what was happening, too. It felt pretty natural to just be sitting with two other guys that I hosted that they were doing and just be like, oh, what'd you think of that pick? Well, here's what I thought. And you just kind of go.

It was really great. I enjoyed it. Would you say it was one of those moments, despite the success, where you have this little moment where you kind of look around and go, like, holy shit, I'm actually going to do this? Because it goes away the more successful you are, you know? No, that one, because I had done the draft diaries for really from 97 to 2012. And then all of a sudden, I'm there. But the first one we did was Stern's draft.

It was his last one. So I remember I saw him before the draft. It was his last one. So I saw, I remember I saw him before the draft and he just gave me, it was a handshake, but he gave me that look like the same way somebody's dad would look at them when you're about to take their daughter out to the prom or something. Just kind of like, don't fuck me on this. It was one of those looks. And, uh, and it was it was it was hilarious it was his last one and he was like milking the crowd and waving you know waving them to boo him more and all that stuff it's pretty funny people don't know this too that stern and it's it's through the nba media thing but if you're going to be on the air covering any kind of nba product you have to like fill out this

form and then be approved by the league so when i did a couple celtics games, I had to fill out this stuff, and they're like, you're fine. And then I remember when I was trying to get on the draft show for radio before I was even allowed on it, because I had been at ESPN since 06, and I was like, hey, look, I go to Portsmouth, I go to Orlando, and then I was hosting the Combine in Chicago, which I did for five years. I go, can I get on to this thing? And I remember, again, just a lie. And they were like, well, you know, there's some people in the NBA

really don't like you. And so we can't get you approved to be part of an NBA broadcast product. And I was like, really? So then knowing me, I call up somebody in the NBA that week. I go, Hey, do you guys have a problem with me over there? And he was like, that's a hundred percent not true. He's like, even if you said stuff, don't like, people like you. You're not an asshole. You care. You're a voice for the NBA type of thing. You're one of those guys that obviously loves this league. They're like, whoever told you that you're not on the broadcast

because we have a problem with you, straight up lie to your face. And I was like, awesome. We're going to do the redraft. Do you like when I take these moments to kind of do a little therapy session on something that went wrong? No, because I think we both loved the draft and we got to be there in the room for it a couple times and work it.

It was still fun. It was awesome. It was awesome. I loved it. I think the 2013 draft would be a great documentary. Anthony Bennett was supposed... Plus, I think that was the first draft when Woj was just tweeting

the picks before ESPN was. And I remember going on my phone and just seeing who the next pick was going to be. It was either that year or 14. One of the two I did, he just had all the picks before they were coming out on the stage. And he just

was completely upending it. Do you remember when Jeff Goodman at one point, one year, he had somebody in the pipeline who was just giving him the pick? Right. And that was crazy because then Jeff Goodman was tweeting out every pick, not as breaking

news, but like, hey, this is officially the pick and he just had it all night long because somebody, he had a guy. So the Nets had the first pick in 2000. They took Kenyon Martin in Cincinnati. Do you want the first pick or the second pick? What do you want? Do you want to go one or two?

I'll go one. All right. So will Kenyon Martin go first again in our redraftables? Yes or no? Okay. There is a case against him analytically here. If you want to go Vorp, he's behind guys.

If you want to go Winshares, that kind of stuff. There's a couple people behind guys. If you want to go win shares, that kind of stuff. There's a couple people behind him. He was older coming in. And I would say as much as like, I've always had this thought, if you're going to be really, really good, maybe not just great tier, but below that are really, really good, you're probably going to figure it out no matter what the fit. But Martin and Richard Jefferson going to play with Jason Kidd

is the best thing that could have ever happened to him. It really was. And I think Martin, what he gave you, even as a notch, like, I'm probably going to go with him versus Red's health. So I'm still going to take Martin number one, even though there are strong arguments with like two or three other names.

I just like the whole Kenyon Martin thing, even though it was probably a little underwhelming for an overall number one pick. And offensively, he was a non-factor for a good chunk of the end of his career. So I think he was a better asset than Michael Redd when they were both healthy. He also had a knee injury and he had the

microfracture surgery. Michael Redd blew out his ACL during the 08-09 season. Twice. Yeah. So here's the case for Kmart. And I agree with you. I thought he should have been first pick. Second best player in two finals teams.

I think that matters. Ruined Antoine Walker's career. He really did. And coincidentally, I rode an airplane to Chicago with him, just randomly sitting next to him in mid-February and didn't talk to him the whole time because I hate talking to people who get talked to all the time. But then he kind of was looking and he was side-eyeing me near the end. And then he was like, hey man, you Bill? And so we just started talking. And I was like, you broke my heart. And oh too, like I thought we had you guys. I went to those games and I was like you just destroyed Antoine and he was saying when he went into the NBA he just started talking about it

we're landing and he's like I went in the NBA and Antoine was an all-star in the east and I was like I gotta I gotta beat that guy that's gonna be the guy that I'm just gonna be better than him because if I'm better than him then I'm the all-star in the East. And if you go back and watch those series, he just kills them. Antoine couldn't figure out what to do against them. His 03 and 04 in the playoff, they made the finals in 03 and have a really good series against the Pistons in 04, they lose. He was 19 and 10, solid, good, really above average defensive player. I, not like a defensive player of the year, but definitely like an all defense kind of forward. Yeah, any of the bigs,

any of the bigs that could play bigger than they were and then also hang athletically with any of the perimeter stuff, it just allowed you to do stuff. I mean, that's why I've mentioned how much I always loved the piston structure of switching guys. But when you can switch and not give up stuff,

that's what Kenyon was doing on top of running. I mean, get out and transition with him. I liked his game. I got to be honest. I did too. I really enjoyed his game. He got signed and traded to Denver in 2004, and I forgot. So this is July 15th, 2004. Denver, it's three first round picks. They ended up giving up. Two of them were lottery protected. The one, the Denver pick that was in there, actually was like very lightly protected. The picks ended up being Joey Graham,

Ronaldo Balkman, and Marcus Williams. But, you know, he made 113 million. He had real value. He was also on that Denver team in 09. He wasn't one of the best three players at that point that almost made the finals. Pretty good career. Like you definitely can't call him a bust. Like he made a one of the best three players at that point that almost made the finals pretty good career like you definitely can't call him a bust like he made a lot of money yeah and then had had some good moments so i thought that was a good pick i had a michael

red second um can i just finish with one kenyan thing though i'm sorry yeah i know it's annoying but i remember you know i love tough guys i love the real tough guys as opposed to the fake guys that do stuff and when i asked a nets guy i go you play with with kenyan right and i go what's the story there be like no no he's all the way real do he goes he actually like guys were fucking scared of him straight up anton was and i'm like yeah but this is his own teammates oh i'm like you guys were scared of him we were like yeah like if he would get into it and you were fucking with him in practice like he'd do this thing he'd be like better get my name out your motherfucking mouth and then like guys would be like whoa we're supposed to be on the same team here so i love hearing stuff like that though because that means you know that that's somebody

who's not going to wilt so there's a cut so i like this. There's a couple guys. Oakley was obviously the captain of this team. But there's some guys over the years, and you talk to anybody from that era, and they're like, there's a difference between the tough guys in the game but the actual don't fuck with that guy guys. Stackhouse was another one like that.

Yeah, I'd heard that too. I've heard that for years. Yeah, there's famous Stackhouse was another one like that Yeah I'd heard that too I've heard that for years Yeah there's famous Stackhouse stories Him punching out Kirk Snyder after a game And shit like that Tony Allen I think was like that Where it's like Yeah don't

Don't actually fuck with Tony Allen Like you can talk trash to him on the court Don't actually fuck with him Cause he'll go there. Zach Randolph. Zach Randolph is another one. You're going to have a little fun, do a little trash talk, but don't go too far.

But I think Kenyon wasn't having it. Kenyon was legit. He definitely was like that. Alright, my second pick, and this would be for... Vancouver was picking the spot. Poor Vancouver, just getting slaughtered in these drafts. I feel like there's not enough bring a team back to Vancouver support

as there is for the Sonics. Would you agree? Yeah. No, I think we have Seattle and Vancouver would be my top two picks to have NBA teams again. Oh, you actually think they should have a team again? Yeah. I think they got hosed. Yeah. I think they got hosed.

Yeah, I think they got hosed too. I don't understand why people wouldn't, you know, look, there's always going to be this Canadian thing that some guys from down here, I'd rather live in Vancouver

than a lot of cities. Me too. Michael Redd is my second pick. He, from 2004 through 2008, four seasons, he averaged 24 a game. I didn't realize it was that money. 45% field goal,

37% from three. He was one of those old school guys from, if you just put them forward 15 years, probably would have had a much more fun career, probably would have taken eight or nine threes. Third team on NBA. And then when he tore his knee again in the 08-09 season, it was over. But he was a guy, Milwaukee wasn't very good in the mid 2000s. I don't think anybody was in more fake trades than him. I know I personally threw him into about 100, but it was always one of those,

oh, you know, if they could package blah, blah, blah and this and get Michael Redd, that could be the missing piece. And he just was in that group for three, four years. I liked his game too. Thought he was good. So that's my second pick. Now you're up on the clock three.

I'll be interested to see what you do here. I think there's like a no-brainer number three pick. I don't know if I, yeah, Redd blew his acl and mcl in the same left knee twice yeah and you're right like he has that stretcher you go man he went off and then when it was over it was absolutely over but he'd signed that you got a six-year extension back then and that was the first year where lebron i was going back and looking at the 2005 free agency stuff and after a free agency they got larry hughes and donyale marshall when they wanted red they wanted joe johnson i don't know he was talking about trying to recruit bosh out of there which didn't was

going to be way too early unless they're going to try to tell him to force a trade and bully him but uh yeah people thought michael red was going to go there because he went to people thought red yeah that's right they thought he was going to go there because he went to Ohio State. People thought Redd. Yeah. That's right. They thought he was going to go there. But remember, the raises were bigger incrementally year to year than they are now. They used to make more of an incentive for you to stay home with the longer deal and the better raises. And Redd was like, look, I'm going to stay here. But that team, you're right. They had 42 wins.

Because it took for a while to get Redd started. It was really his fourth year when he was like, whoa, this guy's awesome. And then that team never won more than 42 games okay uh i guess i just wanted to use my free agency notes there because i wrote them down sorry i enjoyed it third pick is obvious i do right now there's there's two names give it give them who's on your board let's hear it it. Well, it's Miller or Turkoglu. Okay. And Miller is another guy when you go back. Red wasn't as surprising. There's some Miller stretches where you go,

man, he lit it up a little bit. And the second leg of his career, kind of like our Ray Allen Iverson thing. But I actually think I like peak Turkoglu better than Miller. So I'm going Turkoglu. Okay. Make the case. Well, if I have to start with 15 years, I love that he went to Sacramento and people were kind of like, ah, Paige is in his way. It was just like, why?

Because he's another tall white guy that's not from the States. It took a while. But from 0405 till 2010 and what he did and how he fit into that Orlando team. Like I just thought he had moments during those Orlando runs where Turkoglu was like an incredibly talented, scary guy. I know he floats. I know his rebounding numbers are pretty, you know, they're just not as good as you'd want them to be, but he actually became like a pretty good playmaker there for Orlando

there towards the end. I know the end. I know the end was, you know, by the time he's back in Orlando 33 Clippers, the last couple of years, it's kind of over a stint with Phoenix. But this is more of a talent thing where I think the peak version of Turkoglu was somebody who could get me a tougher bucket than Miller. And I think he's another one that 10 years later, you'd be running a lot of the stuff like they were doing anyway in these playoff games for Orlando, which we did one of them on the book of basketball. We did game four of the 09 Lakers series where they're coming out,

setting a screen, spreading the floor for him. And he was pretty crafty. I don't totally understand why Sacramento couldn't figure out how to use him and then he goes to San Antonio for the 0-3-0-4 season where they lose basically in that Fisher shot I think they would have won the title that year and they couldn't really figure it out either and it wasn't until he got to Orlando

that he got unleashed as this guy who's like I'm going to score 60 in a game I'm going to make 60 in a game. I'm going to make almost 40% of my threes. I don't really need the ball all the time, but in crunch time, you can kind of go to me and I'm weirdly reliable. I don't understand why Sacramento couldn't figure out how to play him and Pagey together. You would have thought like, great, put both of them out there with C-Web. Let's go.

What are you trading him for Brad Miller for? I thought that was very strange. Can I read you the names of the- Ron in the trade? Yeah. All right. Yeah, perfect. That's exactly what I was going to do right now because there's some awesome names in this. It's a three-teamer, Indiana, Sacramento, and San Antonio. The only thing we know for sure is that Indiana is just going to end up with white guys. Like however this plays out, they're getting white guys in their trade. So Indiana trades Brad Miller to Sacramento and they trade Ron Mercer to the Spurs.

Turkoglu also goes to the Spurs. Sacramento trades Scott Pollard to Indiana and San Antonio trades Danny Ferry to Indiana. It's a double Caucasian boon for the Pacers. And Turkoglu is by far the best guy in that trade. I did enjoy that one Brad Miller season on the Kings, but it seemed like a heist. I remember writing this at the time. What a heist for for the Spurs really excited to see Turkoglu and the Spurs never really happened wasn't until the Magic that he kind of found

his place I think the Magic contract though was I think at the time I bet you if you go back and look at this you're like what are the Magic doing? they're giving Turkoglu this much money but he was only at 0405 we're talking him being 25 years old and the reason you know at first when you mentioned

the pacers getting rid of brad miller and you're talking about like brad miller was so white he counted as two white guys so that's why they had to get fairy and pollard back right like anybody that packs a dip in the fourth quarter of a game we need at least two white guys to make up for his whiteness. It would have been fun to have Brad Miller in the artiste melee though. I feel like we were cheated out of that. I'm taking Mike Miller with the fourth pick. So Kenny Martin won, Michael Redd two, Turkoglu three, Mike Miller four. Mike Miller third on my board.

I couldn't be happier right now. 41% three-point shooter. Career. Career. Sixth man of the year. That includes five years with his luggage at the end of his career and still finished over 41%. 05 through 08 on Memphis

on some pretty sneaky good Memphis teams. 15-5-5. 48-42. 78% splits, 42% from three, that whole stretch, playing a lot of minutes. Game five, 2012 finals, seven for eight from three, 23 points. You mentioned how Battier had that huge game seven in 2013. Miller did the same thing in game five. And that was one of those series that it was a 4-1 finals.

The consensus now is that, oh yeah, Miami won in five. They had it the whole way. Those first four games all came down to like one or two plays. And even in game five, I didn't feel like that series was done. Miller came out, shot the lights out. Had that not happened, they would have gone back to OKC for games six and seven. So it wasn't a must win. I think every finals game is a must win, but there's a scenario where Durant gets hot in that game five and maybe it goes back to OKC.

Now the crowd's going nuts. Who knows? LeBron hadn't won a title yet. There's different variables. Miller shut it all down. He was awesome in that game. Probably the jump shot I was the most jealous of, just personally. Like if you could have bought somebody's jump shot on eBay, I think I would have taken Mike Miller. Who would you have taken? Ray.

Yeah, so Ray's the other choice there. I really like Mike Miller's jump shot. But Miller's a good pick. And was it close for you on Turkoglu or Miller? Or were you adamant? Because I was split going into it. I always liked him. And I just thought he was in weird situations

for most of his career that if you kind of just did his career 10 times, I think there's these universes where there's times when it could have been awesome for him. You look at all the teams that could have drafted him in this draft where it goes New Jersey, Vancouver, Quipper, Chicago, Orlando, Atlanta, Chicago again, Cleveland. I mean, all those teams sucked for years. Any situation he was going to was going to be a bad situation. It's a shame that he couldn't have just gone to a team that was good, but for one year ended up in the lottery, where he was just playing with good

players all the time. Because I always thought he had a really nice feel for the game. I got to read you some Mike Miller trade trivia. So he was the last piece of the Chris Webber, Penny Hardaway trade from 1993. He was the last first round pick. I couldn't believe that when I looked that up today, I was like that pick carried over from 1993. He was traded in 2003 with a first round pick for Drew Gooden, which is a trade that just seems abysmal now. I can't believe

you would have thought Drew Gooden had a first for Mike Miller. No, it was the other way. Then he was in that crazy K-Love, OJ Mayo, Chris Wallace fiasco where Chris Wallace, what did he have? The fifth pick? Yeah. And he, I forget what it is. No, it was four. Did he have four and he went down to five? Yeah. He flips picks

so he can end up with OJ Mayo and gives Minnesota Kevin Love and Mike Miller. Both of them. So somehow they, Chris Wallace goes with the two best guys in the trade. Still trying to figure that out.

And then a year later, he's traded with Randy Foy in Joe House's least favorite Wizards Bullets trade of all time. Randy Foy and Mike Miller for the number five pick in 2009, which could have been Steph Curry or Ricky Rubio

except Washington didn't have it. Khan ends up getting it and then somehow whiffs and takes Johnny Flynn. And there you go. Four trades where the other team probably, uh, has the fans have their feelings hurt.

I really enjoyed Mike Miller's game. I can't believe he's a top four pick and a redraft, but, uh, there we are. Who do you have for five? I just wanted to add to that, that draft in 2008,

just to make sure we had it right. Now, that's right. Yeah, he had, Wallace had five, and he traded up to get to three with Mayo, and Westbrook went in between them, and Westbrook at the time was like four was kind of a reach. Felt like that's as high as it could possibly go. When we do, if we do the 08 redraft,

Westbrook will be obviously four or higher, but I loved Westbrook in college. I was stunned when he went four. It seemed like- You did love him? I did. I have stuff written. He was like my big sleeper in the draft,

but I thought he was like just this energy guy off the bench. I didn't think he was going to be Russell Westbrook. No, I don't know. I just liked him. off the bench. I didn't think he was going to be Russell Westbrook. No, I don't know. I just liked him. Presti didn't. None of those guys did PJ Carlissimo who, you know, I became close with.

I was like, what was going on there? He goes, I was screaming, banging the table, going Brooke Lopez, Brooke Lopez, Brooke Lopez.

And he goes, and every time I come back to Presti, Presti be like, we really kind of love the idea of what this Westbrook guy can be. And I'm telling you, like you may have liked him, but like for Preston to actually pull the trigger on it,

that's some stones. Well, especially over Kevin Love. Yeah. Because I watched that UCLA, I watched a lot of that team that year. I watched that team nonstop. For Kevin Love not to be the first UCLA guy off that team

in a draft was inconceivable. Westbrook was like, the first couple months seemed almost like a six man even on the UCLA team and then he started a blossom because holiday was still there too yeah man that team was amazing you know they played slower Howland style and all that stuff so I mean hell I I honestly think like Presti taking Westbrook when he did with the other options what it it seriously I think it's like one of the greatest picks of that decade because

you have to go back and go okay okay, but what are you actually drafting? And back then we were still a little more position obsessed. You know, it's the same thing like with Turkoglu and Pages you were mentioning. Now you just figure it out, which is kind of crazy that like, no, we can't do that. Like we already have a 6'10 white guy. We can't do that. We can't just put another guy out there that can shoot. Like think how stupid it was that we didn't let basketball have this evolution

where it's, Oh wait, those guys are both really big and can handle and can shoot. Well, why don't we just let them both play? Right. And, and Westbrook is,

is another argument to that, by the way, in that Miller deal, Twan was actually recycled in that trade. And Brian Cardinal Walker. Yeah. Who do you have? That's actually my pick.

Brian Cardinal, the custodian, a.k.a. the janitor, a.k.a. citizen pain. Brian Cardinal out of Purdue. Are you being serious right now? No, I just wanted people to freak out about the Nash-Iverson thing. No, all right.

So this is where it gets a little interesting. But I do think you're going to go Jamal Crawford. I liked him more. I thought he would be different. He was a guy I liked a lot before this. He ended up going eighth, but just the fact that he put up buckets for this long up until two years ago, I mean, he was in the league last year. So I know he played for a million teams. I'm not saying you're winning any games with him, but he was

somebody that just, you know, to give you that much, look, this also has a lot to do with the other options that are out there. I just think value, hey,

am I getting almost 20 years of shooting from this guy despite that it's a little isolation heavy? Yeah, whatever. I'll take Jamal Crawford. Three, six man in the year where it's, I had him at five as well. I think

it's the right pick. He's one of those guys, if he's like your eighth guy, incredible. If he's your sixth guy, that actually means... Good? Yeah, but that also means your coach might be playing him in crunch time. Yeah.

And if he's one of your best four guys, you're not winning anything, As we found out with the first 10 years of his career, I always kind of liked his game. I mean, he's one of the worst defensive players of any good player in the last 20 years. He was just a complete sieve. But the thing that was annoying with him on the Clippers near the end there was he really would take the biggest shot of the game. He'd be like, is the Marcus Smartitis, where it's like, I got this.

And it's like, no, I'm not even sure you should be out there with five minutes left. He's, to me, you almost want him the way the Celtics used Eddie House in 2008. That's my dream Jamal Crawford scenario. Give me an awesome 16 minutes a game, instant offense, and then kind of stay out of the

way. If I'm trying to win a title, if I'm seven, eight minutes left in the fourth quarter, you're getting subbed out. Yeah. You have to, you can't play him. Um, he played 74 playoff games, 39% field goal shooter, 31% from three. The other thing with him, there was this thing like that. He was this awesome three point shooter and he just wasn't, you know, he with him, there was this thing like that he was this awesome three-point shooter and he just wasn't. He was the master of the four-point play, which congratulations, that's great, but that's not helping me win a title. He just wasn't that good of a three-point shooter. And he was one of those guys that always seemed like the shot was going to go in, but it went in a lot less than I think people remembered. So I'm, I'm sure people are listening to this going, wait a second.

What was wrong with Jamal Crawford? He was awesome. I was like, sorry. Um, he's a nice player. Is that nice piece to have on a team? But,

um, you know, just not as good of a shooter as I think he thought he was. He played in big cities, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, LA.

He also had a little bit of time with Minnesota Phoenix at the end. He had a Portland run in there, but he like hit all the major markets. I love that he has a nice New York stretch in there. He actually went for 20 a game with the Knicks when he was 27, but he has become oddly overrated a little bit because we've seen the crossover a million times on the internet and it's sick. We've seen him shake people and pull up from deep. The four point plays i i wouldn't say like he's not even close whenever you start going like historic great shooters of all time you're not talking about jamal crowe i think everybody

really likes him okay so that's the key point dudes love this guy so overrating like i feel guilty even saying that a little bit but the idea of him is like he's a really good player he had a really long career he came out really early was just one year at Michigan but I think everybody loves this dude every time I see him on a panel or some show like guys light up a little bit so he's held up a little bit higher than the fact is that you know look he was never I don't think of him like I never felt like Jamal Crawford was a star and I think sometimes he's talked about that way so two things there one of the most popular actual players with the other players. I think he's like on a short list of just new everybody. Everybody loved him.

Also really popular with the media. And there was a year when I went the last time he won the six man award or he was up for it. And it was just insane that he was, that he was even a candidate, but I think just the media really liked him. He was always really gracious and thoughtful and awesome to everybody. And, you know, it's smart. It was well played. But, you know, I think if he's playing 35 minutes for you, you're not making round two of the playoffs, I don't think.

My sixth pick, this is where it gets dark. Just for the people listening, here's who's on the board right now. No particular order. Mo Peterson, Quentin Richardson, Desmond Mason, Jamal McGlord, Darius Miles, Eddie House, Deshaun Stevenson, Joel Prisbilla. Joel Prisbilla should have gone with Joel Prisbilla. I think he would have been more intimidating. There's a little speedy Claxton, Eduardo Nahara,

undrafted Malik Allen. I like Nahara. Keon Dooling. That's really what we're looking for here. So I'm going to go with Quentin Richardson because for two years, oh four Oh five, he was 16 and six, almost seven threes a game made 36%. Not great,

but not awful, but was, you know, in modern times, more of a three and D guy who could rebound a little bit, a little bit ahead of his time. I liked him on the sun's teams. He was fun with Darius miles when they were doing the tap their head thing.

I think he was a liked teammate in different places. And his career wasn't bad. He became kind of a contract figure there for the second half of it. But at least I know

he could contribute to a good team because we saw it. So I'm taking him six. Quentin Richardson. He could have been in the mix maybe for five. Yeah. He ended up being a nice player and a good role player.

Or I think you're right. You knew kind of exactly what you were getting from him. And then they did have that little run there where the Clippers were. It was just so much fun. But again, that's not necessarily what we're drafting. And that also means that Darius Miles is still available, which I imagine will be available here for a while. This draft, by by the way was one of the drafts that kind of was like hey we're still a little wake-up call here stop falling in love with the long athletic guys long length because

Strohmeyer Swift is the poster child for that one love Strohmeyer Swift coming out um stromal swift was almost instant flame out i was going back and reading billy knight who was the gm that pulled the trigger do you remember the head coach for vancouver in 2000 was that stew jackson is sydney low oh yeah he was didn't he go like 9 and 41 or some some terrible record 6 and 44. I went back and read the article of them being interviewed after the pick. They mentioned, hey, this guy's young, like every other sentence, every other sentence. And one thing I've always noticed with busts,

it's unbelievable how often this repeats itself, is that you don't play nearly as well your rookie year, and then what they do is they give you a ton of minutes in your sophomore year to prove that you do actually suck. And you'll see so many guys that weren't good that have this real nice bump and be like, you know, his best career year was his second season. Right.

And it's not because he improved and then fell off. It's because they actually gave you more shots and forced the issue with you, ran more stuff through you just to make sure they could, okay, we actually made a mistake here. And so I stopped. It was kind of my Earl Clark reckoning. Earl Clark, Louisville, long score, did some stuff at Louisville. And I go, you know what? But if you're just long and I don't see that you have real basketball skills, this draft fucked my head so bad because I was like, stop loving all these really tall guys that can't dribble and can't shoot the first one was brad sellers going back to the 80s wow that's the first time where i i was just out on those type of guys from that point on

because mj kind of needed brad sellers in the late 80s and he just was a stiff like he you know he was the 6'11 guy who couldn't shoot a rebound. So it's like, well, what's left? What are we doing? Yeah, why are you out there? And you're soft. So, yeah, I was shocked to find out

that Stroll Miles Swift played for nine seasons. I don't remember. I honestly, you and I are two of the bigger basketball fans. I would love to just talk to random people. Maybe this should be a rigor series. What was your favorite Strohmeyer Swift memory? Cause I have none. I don't remember anything about his career.

They had a dunk on, um, it was another LSU guy who also is one of my other guys for this. Tyrus Thomas. Oh, Tyrus Thomas. Yeah. Right. So Tyrus Thomas. Oh, Tyrus Thomas. Yeah. Right. So Tyrus Thomas. Wait, save it for the 06 redraftables because that's when we got to do.

Because I remember I was on a flight with a GM leaving Virginia after the Portsmouth tournament. And I go, this Tyrus Thomas run, because he and Davis had that really nice run. He goes, oh my God. And he sold me on Thomas. I'm still young. I'm impressionable.

He sold me because he goes, not only can Ty Thomas do all this front court stuff, he can run your offense. He goes, oh my God. And he sold me on Thomas. I'm still young. I'm impressionable. He sold me because he goes, not only can Thomas do all this front court stuff, he can run your offense. He's the sickest athlete, all these different things. And I go, I got to stop liking these guys. Although Tyrus had a little bit more well-rounded stuff in his game, but yeah, the Stromile Swift memory, it was going around this week because everybody sent it to me because they know how I feel about Stromile Swift is he dunks on Tyrus Thomas and Tyrus gets back into the play to try to reject it. And Swift, I mean, the dunk is one of the best dunks you've seen in a game. It's that awesome of a dunk, but you know, you get a little bit older, you start thinking, who do I want to marry versus who I want to date and your evaluations get better.

I have an incredible Stromile Swift fact for you. Career record in the playoffs, 0-7. Like, games. Not series. Never won a playoff game. No, I'm aware. No, I mean, 0-7. Like, not playoff rounds. Games. 0-7.

Never won a playoff game. Nine seasons. So, who are you taking seven? You didn't tell me. He actually got a decent second contract by the Rockets, too. But the thing is. He made 42 million, 43 million. Those good athletes who could offensive rebound would just throw you off the scent.

You know, you watch them one game. The Ed Pinkney was like that too. Ed Pinkney was way better than Stromo Swift. But those lanky forwards who could like just get a put back. You're like, oh, that guy. Oh. And it was always deceiving. Who do you have at seven?

Strohmild was done as a starter at 25 years old. Yeah. Okay. All right. Going through the board here. Going through the board. We can probably speed it up at this point of the redraft. Almost out of

material. You know, I think I'm going to go Eddie House. Wow. I thought I was going to get him later. Eddie House, do you know how many playoff threes he hit in his entire career

take a guess no I don't take a guess guess 12 no 39 I thought it was gonna be like 120 yeah I knew it was gonna be low

because he's not in the playoffs many times I just figured between the the Phoenix and the two Boston seasons I don't know why in my head he had made all these threes but he was in two Boston years, 29 for 68 from three.

But he helped win them the title in game four and game six. He made huge shots. This is a massive Celtics playoff. But who am I overvaluing? Who am I missing on? There's not another draft room behind me that's freaking out

being like, I can't believe they took Eddie House, who one day they found a scattering report on him and i know i've said this story before but the scattering report said won't shoot unless he has the basketball i had him 10th just just so you know on my board so it wasn't a big upset on no it wasn't a reach i think it's not a reach nothing now is a reach i thought i'm gonna take a reach. Nothing now is a reach. I thought... I'm going to take a good locker room guy pretty soon. Well, so that's the case for Eddie House.

His awesome locker room guy could actually come in and make a big shot in a game. It's not the wrong pick. I had Desmond Mason seven, so I'm going to take him an eighth. You know, like a bunch of the guys in this draft, at his peak was a 15 and five. I just want to say he was enough of an asset that he was basically the centerpiece

of the Ray Allen trade. Because if you look at that trade, it was Gary Payton, who was an expiring contract, and Desmond Mason for Ray Allen, Ronald Murray, Kevin Olley, and a 2003 first round pick. The fact that Milwaukee, basically they gave up their first round pick and Ray Allen so they could get Gary Payton for two months in Desmond Mason. So he had to have

had real value back then, unless Ray Allen is the biggest cancer in the world. I didn't realize it, but that's one of the weirder trades. So anyway, I'm taking him. I'm mad that Eddie House is off the board. Who do you have at number nine? Look, the fact that Eddie House could come in and make big playoff shots,

that puts him in another class where a lot of these guys didn't even get a chance to do that. So that's why I'm going. I think it's a reach because I actually meant to take this guy before him and then take Eddie House after, but it looks like what I've done. Jamal McGlore should have gone this late. He should have gone in either of the last two picks. You said that without any irony at all. No, what are you talking about?

Jamal McGlore deserves to go seven eighth not ninth in the 2000 redraft jamal mcgloar was in the redraftables green room going what eddie house really yeah it's tough he made an all-star team made an all-star team and i'm gonna tell you the more i dug into the jamal mcgloar story more I realized the numbers don't, don't do it justice. So it's just the unquantifiable Jamal McGlore. He, uh, yeah,

I don't have a lot to add. Uh, a double double with new Orleans. You know, I mean, I always kind of liked him. I, uh,

I am up. This is the 10th pick? Yeah, 10th pick. Darius Miles can't fall any further. I got to take him here. The case for Darius Miles, who did get hurt, to be fair. He is

another, like we talked about earlier, these guys that I'm not sure what they did. He couldn't shoot threes. Had no post-up game to speak of. Was a career 47% shooter. Was just a good athlete. Was fun to watch on a fast break. Had a lot of personality.

I'm not really sure what the best case scenario of it was. In Portland, he was playing on the 06 Blazers before he got hurt. He was 14 and four and a half a game basically. But, um,

but had enough value that he got it traded for Andre Miller when Andre Miller had a lot of value that Clippers calves trade. Uh, it never totally happened, but I just want to say I really enjoyed him. I was rooting for it the whole time and I still haven't totally given up on him. We always talk about the guys we haven't given up on yet. I have no idea why I wanted it to happen so bad.

I thought he had a nice feel for the game, like he was a good passer. He had the right instincts. He was like a 6'10 tweener, 6'9", I guess. I never knew, he was like a six foot 10 tweener. I know six foot nine, I guess. I never knew what he was supposed to be or like, who is the guy who is the prototype that he was supposed to be following? And I don't think he knew it either. Yeah. Because back then too, we were still doing this McGrady stuff where anybody that was big and handle had a little bit of vision and it's just a knock. It's almost insulting to McGrady how where anybody that was big and handle had a little bit of vision and it's just a knock it's almost insulting to McGrady how many different guys we thought would like be these next

tall athletic guys but I'm I'm with you like I remember being on the east coast and I had a thing for Darius as I mentioned earlier because you know there was I don't think he was ever going to St. John's but I was always paying attention and that's when you kind of first started your season ticket thing too with the Clippers, right? And it was fun. It was kind of like, wait a minute, this team might not be very good, but this could be something.

That was when I got league pass. I remember watching a lot of them, that one really fun year. It seemed like something was happening with them. Yes. Yeah. And he seemed like he had a chance. It's funny. I remember when I was preparing for the 2013 draft,

watching the Giannis highlights of him at the Greek YMCA, back when Giannis was like 6'8", thinking that he reminded me of Darius Miles. This is before he grew an extra three and a half inches when he got here. But same kind of thing. It's like, what is this? This is something. It's funny how we just get attracted to those guys like ah there's something if he can only unlock but now i look back on miles i'm like

what would he have unlocked i don't know the roadmap for him to be an all-star but i'm taking that's why this stuff is so hard because i mean i couldn't i'm so glad you said that because there's a version of the yannis thing where you go i'm not falling for this again right there are plenty of teams that also did it. It's like this draft was a draft of redheads, and then all the GMs were like, blondes from here on out. Right.

Do we still say that? Male or female, either way. Giannis went 15th, and it seemed like pretty fair. In fact, it seemed like maybe two spots early. But it was like, right yeah roll the dice with the fucking greek kid we'll see but at that point and that's what the bucks were doing that's what they were like yeah whatever we'll give this one a shot so um i like the miles and by the way just i'm happy for him too because we know that it was really rough for him yeah and you know we

don't know these guys but i guess i'm with. I've always had kind of a soft spot for him. I love him. For some reason, and I'm just, I'm happy that it looks like, you know, he and Q getting a podcast going and all that stuff. I'm just happy because, you know, reading into it, it's just sad stuff. So I'm glad for him.

One thing that's been lost, I think they did a six episode series of The Life where they followed the Clippers around, which I can't believe isn't on YouTube. If anyone has this on their VCR or whatever, like please put this on YouTube for America, because it was a lot of like behind the scenes with, with Quinn Richardson and D miles.

And I remember them just, there's scenes of them getting gas and shit like that. And it was just like, I just want to hang out with these guys. Like these guys. I like these guys. Anyway, let's rip through this. Who do you have at 11? I'm going to go Moe Pete.

Probably should have gone higher. Yeah, another guy that went, he went too low. His overall analytics, he holds up. He's like a top seven, top eight guy. And, you know, unfortunately for him, I think, you know, he was always kind of an off ball guy,

which could leave you out of plays back then a little bit too much. So, you know, unfortunately for him, I think, you know, he was always kind of an off-ball guy, which could leave you out of plays back then a little bit too much. So, you know, you weren't as active. We're now off-balls, like kind of where you want to be. And he would have been more productive today. But he had a better career, I think, than you realize. You know, a lot of these guys, you're like, oh, you know, this guy stuck around. It's easy to forget kind of the second half of some of these careers. But Moe Pete probably should have gone higher.

37% career three-point shooter. I have a, wow, I can't believe should have gone higher. 37% career three-point shooter. I have... Wow, I can't believe he's still here. Joel Prisbilla. I'm grabbing with the 12th spot here. You know, Elgin was a veteran of the lottery process. Light of the night. Joel Prisbilla, just a veteran.

Played 13 seasons. Had, you know, a couple moments there with Portland in the 08-09 range when they were doing the two-headed monster thing at center. So in 08 and 09 together, he's playing 23 minutes a game and averaging almost nine rebounds a game. So he's just kind of one of those big white guys who kind of knew how to put his hands up and grab a couple of rebounds and could finish a pass in the paint.

So I'm getting value there with at 12 with Prisbilla. You could do a lot worse than Joel Prisbilla the rest of the way. He's a veteran. Who do you have 13? Another guy that I whiffed on here, Marcus Fizer. Oh, I was always, I was always, no, I'm not taking him. I just wanted to mention Fizer, you know, all Iowa state guys. It's kind of like the, the Babe Ruth league. You want to check the birth certificate there, but he was only 22 when he came in, but immediately it wasn't going to work. And then everybody's like, why are they

taking him with brand? And what I did love about the Bulls, remember Jerry Krause's famous line after they broke everything up in 1998, which really thinking back on it is one of the dumbest things. That doesn't get knocked enough for being one of the dumbest things in the history of modern sports. Then in 98, they said, okay, well, fine.

We're sick of Phil and MJ and this whole thing, and we don't want to be the Celtics. That was a line. Jerry Krause. And we don't want to be the Celtics. That was a line, Jerry Krause saying, we don't want to be the Celtics and hang onto these guys and then be irrelevant and then have a forever rebuild. So let's just do this. And they take Pfizer, they end up trading brand to get another pick later on in the, in the, um, Eddie Curry, Tyson Chandler thing. And from 98, when they won their last title and won 60 games. The next three years, they went 13 and 37, 17 and 65, 15 and 67. They had one second round appearance in the 12 years after that 1998

deal. And they took Fizer, who I liked, but he was just too small for a power forward then, not quick enough and all those things. He had the ACL tear. He had 31 tattoos in March of 2006. That was the full count there. Also a youth minister. Marcus Fizer started in 35 games for his career. He also turned his life around after he retired. Yeah, youth minister.

Yeah. I think he was a pretty sketchy as a teammate. I think he was one of those guys when he played. It was kind of like, stay away from that guy. Not locked in.

Yeah. Early on. Then turned his life around. I just want to talk about Fizer a little bit because that's another whiff. I got whiffs left and right in this one. I think I even like Keon Dooling a little bit more. Dooling might be the call here.

I'm going to go Keon Dooling. Okay. It's fair. Could be a ninth man, potentially on a second-round playoff team. I was going to take Nahara for screens and toughness. I've always had a thing for Eduardo Nahara, but I just don't think it's fair to take him over dueling.

Jerome Moiso is still there. I don't want to end up with Stromae Swift, and I'm not taking Fizer or Courtney Alexander. Speedy Claxton? Well, so I think the right pick here is either Speedy Claxton or Nahara just because they made playoffs. But I'm not going to do that.

I'm going to go off the grid. I'm going to surprise people here. AJ Guyton? I'm going to take... Chris Carrowell? I'm going to take DeMar Johnson. Oh, I see what you're doing there. So if you look at his first two years...

I can't do that. He was even as, even before he had the car accident, he wasn't good. Yeah. I'm not doing that. Um, I'll take, I'll take a speedy class in there.

Cause in Oh three, he actually played crunch time minutes for a team that won the title. When, when Parker was still in that almost like 2008 Rondo version of Tony Parker when those young point guards, you can't rely on them every finals game and you

kind of have to need that veteran guy that can come in and kind of right the ship. Speedy Claxton was there and his Spurs stuff 24 playoff games a year is 14 minutes a game. Average five a game. That's all I need.

He was in the rotation of a finals team. So there you go. I have him just a nudge over Stroh, Swift, and Jerome Uiza. A couple other names here. LeVar Postel, who I loved. St. John's. I was kind of like Malik Allen. Malik Allen.

Not drafted. I remember Khalid Al-Meen played one season. How about the Bulls after this? I did find some Bulls articles that were bullish on their future. It's like, man, we got Pfizer and Crawford, and we got Guyton, Jake Voskal, and Khalid El-Amin all in succession.

Well, you mentioned the idiotic Bulls rebuild before. It actually worked. They just did it for the wrong drafts because you think about it. In 99, they got the first pick out in brand. 2000, they have the fourth pick and the seventh pick. And then in 2001, they flipped brand for a top three pick and they had another top three pick. So they ended up, they had five top seven picks in a three-year stretch, although brand, they turned into one of those but uh just really bad luck to have a fourth pick and

a seventh pick in the same draft and not only go oh for two but it's justifiable that you went oh for two it's like it's like you can't have worse luck than that yeah you actually no one should have no one should you know um yarrick who played for uh Spurs, I always kind of liked him. He came to the league, I think, when he was 24, Marco. Oh, I had a whole couple season ticket runs with him because the first couple of years I had the Clipper tickets. He was pretty competent. I actually liked his game.

He was big too. Yeah, he's physical. He put a beating on some smaller guys, as I would watch. And the only thing I have left on this too is historically, as you've mentioned plenty of times, and it's, it's clearly thought out how horrible this is historically, but I was going and looking at the teams that were drafting.

Like when you look at the top six teams in this draft, how bad their starting lineups were like this, the basketball isn't even close to being like, we know it's better now. And in the depth of stars and the exciting storylines and all this stuff, but it's almost easy to forget, like where the hell were these teams? Like,

what were they doing? The nets. Now that first year, Martin didn't have kid. It was Marbury. And this actually isn't a terrible five, but it's Steph fan horn, Kenyan,

Kendall Gill, who was, you know, at that point on the out, and Aaron Williams was just a role guy. Vancouver's team was Sharif Abdul-Rahim, Bibby, Dickerson, who's going to get her, Othella, big country. The Clippers had a 21-year-old Odom, Jeff McGinnis, Eric Pajkowski, Oluwakandi, and Maggette was only playing like 19 minutes a game. The Bulls had Ron Mercer, Elton Brand, Artest, but Art test wasn't

our test then now at all he's 12 a game hoiberg bryce drew was getting fucking real minutes all year long um i mean the magic had t-mac who at 21 put up a 27 8 and 5 season but after him it was daryl armstrong grant hill played four games. Bo Outlaw, Dee Brown. Atlanta's lineup was Jason Terry, Kukoc, 17 games, Mutombo, Jim Jackson, and Lorenzen Wright. These teams, those are 30 guys that were playing the majority of the minutes for those six games or for those six teams.

It was a talent swoon. And it lasted basically all the way to 07, 08 range. You can even see it if you go back and you read some of the trade value columns I did, where I'm just laying out what the assets were in the moment. And guys who are like 18 or 20 or 24, it's nuts. You can't believe it. I think once we hit 09, 2010 range, I think things really flipped. I've written about it a million times about the too much, too fast, too soon era from 1993 through 1999 of all those young guys who just got too much money too fast and just didn't have the careers that they should have had. When you think about the 2000 season, this should have been the peak of Kenny Anderson and Big Dog Robinson and guys like that.

Some of them made it. Derek Coleman. There are all these blue chip guys that should have been in their absolute heyday and they just weren't. So you're missing like probably nine to 10 blue chippers that should have been awesome. And Vin Baker,

he's already starting to Peter Sean camps already basically played his way out of the league. And you go on down the line and it's just like, what happened? But that's probably a story for another podcast. But that was also to, you remember the lockout and people being like, are you guys kidding me? Like we started this podcast talking about guys staying in better shape. I would imagine I would give most players the benefit of the doubt of just make sure you're ready, and there's going to be some disappointments. That was the big joke 20 years ago, is when a lot of these guys came back from the lockout,

they were never the same. Sean Kemp physically was never the same person after the lockout. And it's like, well, you just didn't care. But that's a great point, though. I hadn't really thought of it that way, the too much too soon thing. I know you've written about it, but it's just a good reminder of you have these classes that are all supposed to replace each other. But then you have this group of incredibly talented guys, players we kind of liked. And you're like, what the hell is going on here?

And then you add in this class. And I also noticed, too, when you go back and read some of the stuff, how many GMs that were running some of this stuff? And no one should really be blamed for anything after this kind of class that we just went through. But a lot of these guys never got jobs again. I mean, Billy Knight got the Atlanta job when everyone in the world knew he was taking Sheldon Williams, Duke, five.

And you're like, what could you possibly? That shook me for a month. I go back and watch more and more Sheldon Williams and I'm like, how could anyone take this guy fifth? Like like there's no way this is real and he took him fifth and there's some guys taking picks there that would never be given the job to run a franchise the way they had 20 years ago well uh just give me one movie recommendation before we go oh bombshell liked it oh interesting yeah uh dude seriously charlize theron playing megan kelly creepy good how good that is and you know margot robbie's you know

i'm not gonna change the channel i didn't like it as much as you did i like behind the scenes you always were a way to you always got out of the office so anything that has to do with like television being on the deal and i was i was in it every day yeah roaming the hallways you know you were above that so you didn't have to deal with that i really liked the movie i called uh never rarely sometimes always which is not the most uplifting movie but i thought it was was exceptionally well done and kind of an important movie. So I'd recommend that one.

Okay. And then Ozark season one, huge fan. I have a going backwards movie for you. Okay. Just quickly. I watched election with my daughter today. I fast forwarded. I knew there was a couple like sex things

that I had the remote ready just like to pause and then get through it. But- How old is she? She's 14. She can handle it. I don't want to be in the same room with her when stuff's happening.

But that movie's a really fun rewatch. No, there's certain scenes. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple, but I was on it. It was never an issue. Early Alexander Payne. Matthew Broderick had that fun drama run there

from late 90s. He's in You Can Count on Me a year later. Early, early Reese. Chris Klein just being a doofus before we realized that was like his only move. It was like, oh, look at this actor. And it's like, oh, he's not acting. This is just what he's like.

But it's a really fun, quirky movie. I hadn't seen in a while. We even did, I think, a Rewatchables 99 on it. I wasn't on that one. But I just, I like the Alexander Payne movies. I've watched that. I watched The Descendants and I watched Sideways during the quarantine. I've watched that. I watched the descendants and I watched sideways during the quarantine.

And, and, uh, you know, I'm not, I'm not breaking ground by saying that guy's really good, but it was just fun to watch all three of those in 10 days and see the progression.

Um, I love sideways. Sideways is like one of my favorite movies of the last 15 years. So there you go. I saw, I saw election in theater, loved it immediately. People thought I was a weirdo cause I was really on it. And I'd be I saw Election in theater, loved it immediately. People thought I was a weirdo because I was really on it.

I'd be like, you've got to see this movie Election. You've got to see this movie Election. A couple of girls, 23, 24, they're like, that movie was kind of weird. I'm like, do you not see how simple it is and perfectly executed the whole deal is? It's great. When the kid who's in the wheelchair gives the speech running for president

vice president yeah yeah and it's perfectly like the way he says it and i'm like that's high school that's being in high school and the whole deal and then there's good touches yeah one of the other person like somebody else is giving a speech and like some pimple face, redheaded kids like eat me raw, screams in the background. And then the guy playing the principal's perfect. He's like, all right, you know, we're not going to do that here.

And the principal's perfect. The whole thing. I love election. And sideways is funny because I did not like it when I first saw it. I was too young. I was too young to understand how heavy that movie is. I could watch Sideways. Sideways is up there with very few movies where I could watch.

Because I just started up Shawshank. I just was going through it. Wanted to see some scenes. Question for you. Tweeted about it. If Red and the crew, his lunch lunch crew there were close enough to andy defrain to get him on roof tarring duty outside a couple bottle of suds yeah where was that crew when the sisters were beating the hell out of him and we know what else was going on so like oh i'm

good for tarring but you guys can't help me out with these dudes well red says that i do believe those were the worst two years for andy which is being repeatedly raped by the sisters which i think i would hope that were the worst two years but uh yeah i think the tarring happened after i think the sisters had gotten kind of tired of andy at that point. But I think the friendships with those other guys kind of deepened a little bit later. But they still rigged it to the he got picked. And there's a scene that goes right from that to right to that.

All right, so basically what I found is a problem with one of the greatest movies of our lifetime. Oh, there's a lot of problems. I don't want to say that because it's too good of a movie. No, it's one of my... Obviously, one of my five favorite movies ever. But you could really... If you're going to really start nitpicking, you could do it with that movie. Yeah.

I still don't know how he knew which way to turn in the sewage pipe. So if he goes left... Because I think the grade... Yeah. I don't think you've worked construction enough i think of andy i think you could just you people can i could tell if something's level just by looking at it just years on the site so i think what he's doing is he's going i need a certain grade because this

is a pipe that's dispensing outwards he probably just felt the level i think i would have screwed that up and gone left and then be like, oh, fuck. Where is this? Where's this exit? Throw up again. Rosillo, stay safe. We'll see you in a week. I don't know what the next

Redraftables with us is going to be, but we might end up having to do O3 at some point. Maybe not next week, but at some point. All right. We can listen to your podcast as well, which you'll be doing at least one of this week. NFL Draft is coming.

It'll be the last real sports we're probably going to have here for a while. But anyway, good seeing you. Talk to you soon. All right. Thanks, man. All right. Thanks to World Central Kitchen. Don't forget to go to wck.org. And if you have the means, give what you can, help out, check out what they're doing.

Maybe you will get into it and want to give something. Thanks to What We Do in the Shadows, the dramatic return of the FX original comedy. The Hollywood Reporter called the series' first season ridiculously funny and warned that you will die laughing. This season, Shadows continues to follow our four favorite vampires who have been living together for hundreds of years. Premieres Wednesday, April 15th on FX. Streaming next day, FX on Hulu. And if you missed season one, catch up now on what we do in the shadows

on FX on Hulu. Stay safe out there. Listen to the doctors. Listen to the scientists. We'll have more later in the week. One more redraft on the Book of Basketball's pod read in 2001, me and Zach Lowe, and then two rewatchables. Total Recall

coming Monday night and then Enemy of the State later in the week. Stay safe out there. Listen to the experts. See you soon. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside on the wayside

never I don't have a few years