The Bill Simmons Podcast - SGA vs. Jokic, Celts-Lakers, and the State of NBA Media With Ryen Russillo and Bryan Curtis

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Thunder's 127-103 win over the Nuggets on Sunday, OKC's improvement from last season, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander's incredible statistical season (2:06), Saturday's big Lakers-Celtics showdown, LeBron's late-game injury, Al Horford's impressive defensive performance, a solidified first-team All-NBA, and second- and third-team arguments (29:45). Then, Bryan Curtis joins Bill and Ryen to talk about 2025 NBA media discourse, Stephen A. Smith vs. LeBron, Charles Barkley's ESPN comments, cancelling 'Around the Horn', and the future of ESPN (53:54). Finally, they discuss Bob Cousy, who is featured prominently in Episode 1 of HBO's 'Celtics City' documentary, greatest NBA broadcasters, the skyrocketing NFL salary cap, and more (01:38:05). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ryen Russillo and Bryan Curtis Producers: Kyle Cricton and Chia Hao Tat Order Michelob ULTRA today, available on Doordash!  ENJOY RESPONSIBLY © 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA® LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, we figure out a way to talk about OKC, basketball, sports media, a lot of stuff with Bracillo and Brian Curtis next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network, where I am on the Prestige TV podcast recapping White Lotus every Sunday night, right after the episode runs on HBO and on Max. Me, Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin. You can hear our recap. Episode four is this weekend. It's on the Prestige TV. You can also watch it on the Ringer Dash TV YouTube channel. And then the rewatchables Monday night. We're doing best in show. Yeah.

Christopher Guest, dogs. It's me and Mallory Rubin and Joanne Robinson, my white Lotus crew. It's threatening to become sports movie month on the rewatchables. Cause we did Rocky last week, best in show this week, and two more spots left. I don't know. Could be becomes sports movie month on the rewatchables because we did Rocky last week, best in show this week and two more spots left. I don't know. Could be another sports movie month.

Hey, Fandel sports book. They have some really fun bets right now. Player performance doubles, two leg parlays already made for you. Take an NBA player prop, combine it with the bet on that players team to win. Uh, we have a ringer PBT we call them, um, player performance bet placed on any of the Tuesday games. So Washington, Detroit, Milwaukee, Indiana. That's a fun one. Cause Indiana always plays well against Milwaukee.

Maybe grab some Halliburton with Indiana to win. Stay tuned for my picks on Tuesday on Twitter, be sure to claim the ringer PBT and the carousel on the Fandrel Sportsbook app this Tuesday. Um, I have Ryan Rosillo come up in a second. We taped right after the OKC Denver game. And then Brian Curtis is going to join us midway through to talk about, uh, some of the crazy sports media shit that's going on and also some big picture sports media stuff. So, uh, this is an action packed two hours.

First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, weird taping is 1230 Pacific time. Just watched OKC Denver. I'm a little groggy today, Rosolo. Okay. Daylight savings combined with going to bed last night, wanted to throw something on, flip through the cable guide because I'm old and I still flip through cable guides. Cast Away had just started, a movie I've seen 100,000 times.

I did a solo rewatchables for. And I'm like, oh, I'll just watch the beginning. And I'm up till like 1.45 in the morning, which was really 2.45 in the morning. And I just loved that movie. But I had to ask you, what's your Cast Away move coming out of the gate, you're just stranded on the island?

Like, do you figure out how to do a home gym? Like, what, about a year in, what does your island look like? I've actually thought about this. Okay, great. And I'm glad that you asked, because I like watching Alone. It's a good fall asleep show. It is, because there's no music for like 50 minutes.

So it's peaceful. It's just like ocean sounds. And there was a guy on the most recent one who checked out after one night. And I felt like there should be some kind of fine. He checked out after one night? Yeah, one night he was like, I'm out. I'm tapping out. He really missed his family.

So I think I'd be geared towards doing better because I would have no one to miss, but I would get so upset about how skinny I would be coming out of it that I would never ever do it. Not that I would do well anyway, like I would get so upset about how skinny I would be coming out of it that I would never ever do it. Not that I would do well anyway, like I might have a decent fort, but when I was thinking about it, I was like, you did all this like buildup and I've, I've done this, I've trained, I've been in the outback, I've, you know, they're in

Tasmania, so it's definitely challenging. And then he was done after one night. And then I thought, is that the best thing ever to get over like a fight with your wife is you sign up for a loan and then you say you after one night. And then I thought, is that the best thing ever to get over like a fight with your wife? Is you sign up for a loan and then you say you've missed them so badly, you tap out after just one night. It's probably the best relationship repair move possible.

So maybe he's actually playing the game ahead of everybody else. Cast away. Wait, can I say one thing on a loan? Yeah, yeah, of course. You don't think the wife would be like, wait a second, what just happened? You spent four months training for this show.

You quit the day. Are you just a quitter? What are our kids going to be like? Did you pass on your quitting DNA to our children? I could, I mean, like stay a second night. Like I understand the bugs and the bedding. Yeah, try to make it like four days. Some people know and they know, they're just out.

But then you have to watch, you watch the people after like 24 hours going, what'd you think it was gonna be? Yeah. What'd you, yeah, it's gonna be really hard and there's not a grocery store. Like figure it out. So, Cast. Well, my dream in life

was for my wife to be on Survivor, cause I think she just would have kept winning challenges, but she also goes crazy if she's not eating regularly. Yeah, see I'd be toast. So she would have been like, they would have been constantly trying to vote her off, and then she just would have saved her ass again at the next challenge.

I always have wanted to know somebody that I really know in my life who went on one of those shows, and I'm still waiting. Maybe it'll be you. Maybe it'll be you on Alone in Tasmania. Now somebody that I'm actually like is in my life. Where I'm like, oh my God, this is gonna be amazing. Brasileo's on Alone?

I won't though, I won't because I'd be like 185 coming out of it and I'd never be the same. You wouldn't just drink like a lot of coconut, like there's probably some nutrients you could. No, nothing. All right, do your castaway. What was your castaway take? I'd light the entire island on fire within 24 hours.

I think that's the best chance of me being noticed. I've thought about it. I think that's the only move. I thought about that last night too, because he goes to the top where he tests out whether he wants to hang himself on the top of the island. And wouldn't the move be to just set everything as high as possible, the highest peak of the island, set it on fire as much as you can.

So you're getting at some point they've got a notice, although they did say it was a 500,000 square foot radius. Yeah. I'm not saying it's going to work, but I just, I think in those first couple of days is your only chance of being noticed or say the first week or whatever. So if you, true. Yeah. You got like a 10 day window. Yeah. Yeah. I did this when I did the solo cast away pod during the first two months of COVID. I did this, but I'm always amazed. The husband doesn't wake up.

That's my favorite part of the movie. Cause Hanks he's back. Helen Hunt won't see him. And then that first night he just says, fuck it and takes a cab to her house. Husband's just sleeping through it. I know it's raining, but that first night I'm probably going to be sleeping with one eye open knowing my, knowing my wife is, is, is just in a tizzy that the love of her life actually survived. I'm probably going to be up for a couple of days there.

Just making sure. Yeah. I can imagine if you were the new husband and if Helen Hunt were like, look, you know, he's kind of my soulmate and I owe it to him. And then just years later, you just, you just put in hours that are irks just constantly drinking and guys would be like, he's, he's the guy. He's the, and then he just kind of turns and goes, what are you supposed to do? You know, like bad, bad beat.

Yeah. Maybe the move would have been to bow out. Um, okay. See Denver. So there's this, and I don't know if I just noticed it this year, but it might be every year where we have to, there's this new thing the media does and it's not new where they lecture people that we're not talking about somebody enough or we got to give these guys more credit.

It's like this lecture thing. It's a way of talking about a team because you don't really have anything that interesting to say. So you look in the camera and you lecture people about, we're not talking about OKC enough. I know we're doing people and you do that thing. We did this. I remember the first time I really noticed this was that

the year after the Suns made the finals and they were awesome because I think I did it. Where the Suns were really good that second year and nobody was talking about them. And at some point there was a week where I was like, we're not talking about the Suns. What are we doing? I did it. Right. We did it. We all did it. Right. We did it. We all did it.

I think we probably did it together. And then I think the Celtics did it last year. I think the Celtics hit that point where there was kind of not a lot to say. They shot a lot of threes. They hadn't won anything yet. And I feel like, okay, C is in this zone this year. I have some theories for this. Okay.

Basically the subject heading would be, why is it not that fun to talk about? Okay. See yet. Cause they just dusted Denver tonight and they have a guy who's going to win the MVP and yet everybody's like, ah, what is your opinion for why this is not fun? Yet? Well, I don't know why it's not fun. Cause I think there are a lot of fun to watch just their aggressiveness.

Or you look at the blocks that they have 14 blocks in today's game. San Antonio leads the league with six blocks per game. So like, there's just things that I've always noticed against Oklahoma city. If you screw around, if you wait around, you're just going to be in trouble. And now that they've rolled out this double big thing they're doing with chat and experimenting with that. And then they bring chat back in like watching Phoenix play against Denver in comparison to watching Oakley seat.

Like it was, Hey, do you want to sit up here? Jokic? Do you want to get a catch here? Do you want to be able to just turn and face the defense without any kind of pressure on you whatsoever? And Jokic was great in the first quarter. I don't know how much the elbow injury played into him missing, missing his free throws and type everything else, but there's just not a lot of room.

There's not a lot of time and you just cannot screw around against the thunder. So I don't know why it wouldn't be fun because SGA, okay, is he not as fun as Ant? All right, fine, but I mean, this guy's on an absolute tear. Another 40 point game. I'm about to have fun talking about SGA with you just like three minutes from now,

but I'm just flagging that for you now. The final thing I would say as we kind of go through this is that I've always said, I just think we have a hard time with new. We have a really hard time with new, maybe even more so in the NBA. Like when's the last time something was new, a team that hadn't won a championship,

players that hadn't won a championship where you thought, you know what, I'm all in on this team. Because for me, it's been a long time. Yeah, even Boston last year who'd had the scars and had some tough losses and gotten in the finals and it was still the same thing. Well, you know, we'll see.

We'll see if they can win four rounds. I think there's a couple issues with OKC. None of them are their fault. One is that they're new. Two is that there's nothing polarizing about them whatsoever. There's no argument. There's no like, I'm gonna sit in a sports bar

and have an OKC argument about Jalen Williams or Chet Holmgren. Like, they've just done everything correctly. They've added talent really smartly. They've built a fun team. I think their eight, nine man rotation is pretty unassailably put together. They have all these picks coming and there's no zag.

And whenever there's not a zag, I think people have struggle. They struggle to figure out like, well, how do we talk about this then? Because you just end up going, this team's great. This team's awesome. But you watch them today and this team, I think that thing that is so impressive to me is that they can linger in these games and they'll be up like four,

they'll be up three, they'll be up six, but then they'll just have this eight Oh run out of nowhere. And all of a sudden the game's 1415. It's not even threes. It's like defense. Um, it's a second chance rebound. It's SGA just scoring six points in a row. I think they're really scary.

Um, do I think Denver could beat them in a series or the Lakers just by slowing things down by the pressure going up? I wouldn't say no way, but okay. See, just has so many advantages. You mentioned the two bigs thing today. Their malleability now when they do that versus when they can go small, that's something they just didn't have last year.

But the SGA piece of it, you know, I was looking at it. I was looking at all the best guard seasons. He's having one of the best guard seasons, non-MJ in the history of the league. Like when you're talking about team success, his, like his production, his consistency, that was his 40th 30 point game today. He had another 40 point game, the way that he's played against other big teams, how consistent he is night to night, how unstoppable he kinda is.

I think that's probably the number one talking point with them now for me. It's like, where does this SGA season rank against some of the other great guard seasons we've seen in our lifetime? When you talk about Kobe and Harden and Curry and even somebody like Jordan statistically, he's moved into that stratosphere, which to me is the biggest surprise.

Yeah, because I think when you look at his three point shooting, even though he didn't hit any today, it didn't really matter. You know, that was maybe the final piece of him being an unstoppable score. But, you know, he's you're right, though, like whenever you think about the polarizing part of who we talk about, you know, whether it's the Lakers being at the top, you know, there's just going to be a lot of people that don't like the Lakers. There's obviously going to be a lot of people that don't like Boston. Maybe Cleveland falls in this category a little bit, but maybe there's a little bit more hesitation on

like what Mitchell is, even though what I would always defend with Mitchell is say what you want about some of the playoff exits. Like, at least you know that his ceiling is these like legendary playoff performances where he can just go for like 45 and take over a game. And he has zero fear with Boston. Did you know he passed Jordan, by the way, for most points per game against the Celtics in franchise history?

Seriously? Yeah, he's ahead of Jordan now. Wow. With that game, with that comeback. Jesus. Two Fridays ago, yeah. So I think you're right, because there's nothing to hate. They're, they all, like, if anything, people be like,

they might be a little boring, which, which is maybe part of the problem. Which isn't their fault. I don't find them, right. I do not find them boring. I mean, think about how deep this team is. Granted, it's one game, but they shut everybody down, right, for this game.

And, you know, I don't know if they did it strategically, knowing they had Denver back to back here, maybe everybody was due. They play, um, Jaylen Williams, the Arkansas Jaylen Williams, Usman Jang, Kenritch Williams, Isaiah Joe, Aaron Wiggins goes for 30. All those guys played 30 minutes, you know, Brandon Carlson is playing 14 like, and they beat Portland by 20. So this team is probably the worst worst if there was an expansion draft,

Preston would be like, God damn it. But I'm so impressed with them. If you look at them night to night, you know, they, they seem to kind of figure out what you're trying to do, even the zone possessions that they did a good job against SGA slowing him down a little bit, like eventually great players are going to kind of figure out what you're trying to do. Even the zone possessions that they did a good job against SGA slowing him down a little bit. Like eventually great players are gonna kind of figure out your zone. Denver has really no perimeter matchup for SGA

on top of everything else. Maybe the SGA free throw things upset people, but he's number one in drives. He's averaging 21 drives per game, 15 points per game off those drives, which is three more than Zion, who has great drive numbers considering his minute totals. And there's plenty of guys that hunt free throws

that I can get frustrated with over the course of the game. I don't even know that I find him as frustrating as some of the other people. I just think he's that hard to defend because of the size. So it really comes down to the number two guy. Is there a number two guy that you trust enough in the playoffs for them to get through four rounds? And I think there's still enough people out there

that maybe doubt if Jalen Williams is that guy. Yeah. And they are in the same issue. The Celtics are in with that top of the second quarter, top of the fourth quarter. Can Jalen Williams run the offense for like four or five minutes, which is the Jalen Brown issue with the Celtics sometimes the SGA piece of it just, cause I've been watching really closely. Cause I've been trying to think like if the Celtics see him in the finals, is there a way to defend this?

What is he doing exactly? Right. And he's got basically three different things that he vacillates between. He has that thing. You just go to the basket. Like if you, if you fall asleep for a split second, he's got this first step and he can get to the rim and he can finish. But then he also has the, I'm going to pretend I'm going to do the get to the rim thing and I just stop. And there's no way your body momentum can stop with me. And then I'm going to be elevating as you're still trying to catch up.

And I make a 15 footer. But then the third thing he does, and I don't know how you stop it. And he did it a couple of times in the fourth quarter today. He has the ball like, you know, top of the three lot, three point line, top of the key and people are defending them and they're doing everything perfectly. And it just seems like he's trying to decide what to do and whether he wants to swing the ball. And then he'll just, he'll, he'll make like a subtle and all of a sudden he's

shooting and every single time the team is a split second laid down, realizing he's about to take an 18 footer. And I don't know how he does it. I've never seen a guard get these shots that he wants without the defense realizing that that's the shot he was setting up for like Brunson will do. Different versions of this, right? He has his little spots on the court and he has that herky jerky style, but I always know he's going to shoot SGA shooting as I'm registering.

Oh, he's probably going to shoot here and he's already like releasing the ball. And he's just so good at it. Now he's so good from 18 feet that the model I was thinking, Rossello was, uh, it's like the, like the most efficient version possible of, of where Kobe was getting to in that Oh three to Oh nine range, where just as, and Kobe would try to swing between these three pointers, get into the line and then this like 15 to 18 foot range jump shot, and SJ is just more efficient at it.

Like he's 53, 54% per game on some of these, and they're just always going in. And I think about the Celtics, it's like, how do you stop this? What's your move? Like, do you just say, Drew Holiday on him all the time? Well, then they're just gonna get him in switches until he gets the guy that he wants on him, and then he it to them. But it's, this is why he's going

to win the MVP, I think, because when you watch them against these good teams, he always seems to get his points no matter what the other team is doing. And that's going to be the case for him ultimately, plus the wins. I couldn't believe when it was what 89, 85. I'm like, how is Denver still in this game? Right. Uh, getting nothing from Yocic for two quarters. Right. And then Aaron Gordon who's out. And if you look at the numbers for them, when Aaron Gordon's out, I think they're

14 and 11 now, if you include today's game. And I think they're 26 and 12, uh, with them, those numbers can be off by a game here or there, cause sometimes it's, it's a little misleading to look it up. But when you think about the switches, like they were attacking Jokic and, you know, that's something you're still going to want to do. And I always wonder if we would look at Jokic a little bit different defensively as if he were an issue for them, if they didn't have the title already. I know I probably look at it and go, Hey, he's at least positioned right, but at least

it's somebody you can think of attacking. And then if it's not going to be beating Christian Brown off the dribble, which you can do without the screen, you can switch into Murray. You know, Westbrook's kind of hit or miss. You know, there's just a bunch of stuff that you can attack out there. And a lot of it changes when Aaron Gordon is not in the game, not that Gordon would be defending him one on one, like 30 feet away, but I think the way you described his different ways of getting into his offense is, is the other part.

The shot attempt is still available later for him with all the stuff that he does, then a lot of high volume scores because he can kind of slow it all down. It's, it's not like Luca, but it's almost the same thing where you don't really speed them up. They play with this incredible pace and whatever is flying around them, they're still completely in control of all of their options and at his size. And then to be able to pull it from mid range, like even those zone possessions where it felt like Malone was slowing them down and clogging it up a little bit,

which I love when teams do like, Hey, something's not working. Why don't you throw some zone out and make them think about it. Now some of these teams fall apart when they face a zone, but ultimately the more you keep doing it, especially with a team like the Thunder where everybody's good with the ball in their hands, they should be able to figure it out. So if you're talking Celtics part of it, they're clearly gonna have better matchups against SGA

and they're gonna have a better rim protector if Przingus is playing. If you have four different perimeter guys that you can throw at them, that's great. It seems size. Yeah, Yeah. And size too, on top of everything else, because Denver doesn't really have any perimeter size, uh, other than Porter Jr.

again, Porter Jr. and Gordon against him. That's probably guys that are too big. So it's really coming off of the corners. And I think part, I don't, I don't like the assumptions. Like what if OKC doesn't hit those open corner threes as everybody helps off of the corners to go to SGA? You're like, all right, well, welcome to the league.

Yeah. But at least they have like Wallace hit one. I think he was one for four. Dort hit a couple. Caruso had one late. Like I like OKC's chances if those are the corner guys, Isaiah Joe, throw him in there, like that's the way the team is built. So yeah, there's not somebody else necessarily at like SGA's level as a two

guard or a two option, I should say. And no one really has like another MVP waiting like that. So it's not really a fair criticism of OKC, but I've heard that talked about it was like what happens with those secondary shooters in a tight playoff game. And I'm just like, well, that's, that's kind of the league. So I don't know why it's specific to them. I mentioned the three different ways that seems like he scores. I should have mentioned the fourth way too, which is this team's

are just a really good transition team. They, you know, long rebounds or if they get a steal, they just finish plays. And SGA is really good in the open four too, which I think that's probably the fourth way he's getting his points. He's up to the- Something else to add though about this team, your Kobe thing with SGA, SGA is totally fine getting rid of the ball. Right.

So that's another part of it where you know, if he's out there and he's going, like I still may be alive in this possession. I do think some teams get used to their number one scoring option. Once they're past a certain moment of just being, okay, now I'm not really in the play, I'm not gonna cut, I'm not gonna relocate, I'm a perimeter. These guys feel really, really connected, maybe because they all came up together

and because they're young and last year felt like, wow, they're already this good. I think there's a personality to this team that also makes me like them. That's another piece that makes it not that fun to quote unquote, talk about them because they all like each other and get along. They do interviews after the game. There's no like, ah, I wonder, is Jaylen Williams jealous about SGA? But there's none of that shit.

So as Jay's 33 a game, 53% field goal, plus 17.6 net rating heading into this game. Although a lot of the OKC guys are way up 31.1 PR, which is really rare for a guard that's top 20 all the time. Um, and he plays every game, which I'm always going to say this over and over again, durability should matter a little more when we talk about all this stuff. Um, but if you compare it to curry in 2016, when the Warriors went 73 and nine, 30 points a game,

35 and seven basically, and he had all the 50, 45, 90 percentage stuff. MJ in 92, when the Bulls went 67 and 15, he was 36 and six, 52% played 80 games. and six 52% played 80 games. Um, Kobe probably his best season was Oh three for team success combined with the stats. Um, 37 and six and then hardened in 2018 when they went 65 at 17, he was 30, six and nine. So as crazy as this sounds, he's having the best statistical season of any of these guards combined with like, did you win in the mid sixties or higher? So if you're talking about, cause I've heard some people be like joke, Yocke has to be the MVP again. I just think SGA say, I don't know who I'm voting for yet.

I'm taking it to the last week as always, but, uh, watching SGA do this over and over again in these big games, just get to his 40 points. His team is usually winning. He's doing it day after day after day. He has a dramatic effect on everybody. Um, I just think he's checking all the boxes. It would be, it would be hard for me to believe he's not going to win if they win 66 games.

This helps, you know, national broadcast head to head. Jokic has the greatest first quarter. He's not enough of a factor. SGA closes it out. I imagine more people are probably paying attention to today's Slated games than maybe a late Friday overtime win against Phoenix, where he goes 30, 20 and 20 and at Jokic's seventh, 15, 15, 15 game this season, which is the most, I think, since Oscar Robertson.

So, I mean, you gotta go- Did you see this, dad? He had a triple double on Friday night in the beginning of the third quarter, and then a second triple double during the game on Friday. He put together two different triple doubles in one game. Yeah. The momentum part for SGA with voters, my guess would be SGA is going to win it because of how good the team is because of a head to head.

Look, they go back at it again tomorrow night. Um, right. I've never. It could be awesome tomorrow night. I've never once thought SGA was better than Jokic. I don't know. I still think Jokic is the best player in the league. So if it's close at the end of the year, I'm going to remember that if I still have a vote,

we can get into some of the advanced stuff and depending on the day you sort it, it's SGA or Jokic. And it's, it's really, really close with all that stuff. I think there's always a part of it too of like, if you took more shots, would we be more enamored with his scoring output, but it's just not the way he's going to play. I also think, okay, so he's just a better basketball team. Um, so yeah, I'm still leaning Jokic and I, I want to remind myself of that. If it's close, who do you think is the best player? I don't, I don't know that, you know, even with this season, well, SGA has done, I'll ever actually think that he's better than Jokic and that will factor into my voting.

Um, and I, I wonder if Jokic like depending on seating and all that kind of stuff with the West, it will kind of matter. You think for Denver with their home quarter, it should kind of matter. But I think Jokic cost himself one in the MB, the MB MVP season because towards the end of it, yeah, it just seemed like he didn't care about it as much. So I wonder if that'll happen. It's minus, SJ is minus 600. I'm not deciding until the last week, but everything SJ is doing, I find it hard to believe he's not going to win.

I think he's going to win too. But I'm with you. If I'm just starting from scratch, and who is the best player in the league, it's really hard for me to think. It's not game to game, all the stuff Jokic does. I think he's been in a harder spot this year with his team, not knowing where you're getting from Murray the first two months. Gordon's been up and down the last like six weeks with injuries. Westbrook they're relying on in this insane way now. Um, they don't have a bench at all.

SJ has, has at least, if you're going to like, and it's not his fault, but he at least knows when he leaves the game, they're not going to immediately crater. But it's a good battle. It's a really good battle. I hope it doesn't get, I hope it doesn't get cantankerous. It will. I'm sure it will.

You know, I even, saying some of the stuff I've said already, but if somebody says like, you need to explain that to me, I was just going to, no, I don't like you need to explain that to me, I was just gonna know I don't You need to explain yokage also It's good to talk to like if you talk to people who actually Coach in the league or run teams

Yokage is still the bar for the teams It's a little like my homes my homes wasn't the best player in the league last year in the NFL But he was still the bar that people pointed to and they thought like, who do we have to get by to actually win the title? You looked at him, you looked at my homes first. I think you look at Jokic first. It'd be one thing too, of like Jokic was having a down season in SGA. There was just a huge gap between the stats and then you kind of start leaning

towards, okay, well this guy's had such a better season that I can't actually, cause I think there's some Curry stuff with LeBron where I don't know that anybody thought Curry was actually better than LeBron, he was just having those seasons. And part of the story, which I think is always a huge part with voters, because voters like stories, is that when it's new and it's kind of this, this next level of accomplishment, at least for the regular season, because that's what the award is, that player's going to have a ton of momentum.

So I'm with you, I'd be surprised if SGA doesn't win it. Yeah. Well, if OKC wins tomorrow and they win the back to back against Ember, it's probably going to be a wrap at this point. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then let's talk about lessons from Lakers Boston last night. One of the best parts of the tournament is when an underdog takes down a powerhouse. This was in my formative years

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Enjoy responsibly 2025 in Izer Bush, McLoBulltra light beer. St. Louis, Missouri, must be 21 plus to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets. One thing I forgot to mention about OKC, that Philly pick is such a monkey wrench in this draft. If that ends up being seven, eight, or nine. I just, I kept thinking about it watching that game,

like what does this team even need? What do they look, what is like, ah, we got an upgrade. They, like every part of the team I kind of like. So anyway, all right, Lakers, Celtics Celtics felt like a massive basketball game last night. It felt like real theater and the Lakers were a little compromised. No Rui and no even Jackson Hayes. I can't believe I'm saying it, but not having both of those guys having no centers, having no centers in issue against a team that has size and can

drive the basket, Seltzer and FKP. Um, but that game was really fun to watch. Tatum was awesome. Um, the crowd was really interesting about, I knew multiple people that were there and there were some Laker fans there. I think there was some secondary market Laker fans. So there was a real energy in the arena and the Lakers just couldn't keep up. It was unsustainable with, uh, those two guys in the LeBron breaks down anyway.

But what, what big lesson did you take from that game? Anything? Horford. Hmm. It's just incredible that this guy is doing what he's doing, uh, at this age. Now you start thinking, okay, how much more does he have? And that was probably a couple of years ago. Yeah.

And you're thinking out, you know, remember that year he was lightened up from three from the regular season, which he's done a couple of times. And then in the playoffs, it was just kind of over. I think it's just really fitting to considering he was such a huge free agent signing, and then I think a lot of fans were like, I thought this guy was like a max player and how come he's not like doing more of these things and you're just going, well, there's, there's just more to it than just the scoring for Horford's being positioned the right way.

It's a guy you want on your basketball team. And then he goes to Philly, he gets flipped to OKC, speaking to that pick, he gets basically sat down because OKC is rebuilding. And then he comes back to Boston and he's a huge, huge. The luxury of having an Al Horford to step in when Perzingis isn't available is incredible. It was very clear that Boston had their hunting strategy because we talked about that hunt happy

approach to basketball that look is a big part of everything that you're watching every night. But the Lakers, like let's kill Al Horford tonight. Okay. So I don't know if you saw the numbers afterwards of tracking. Bon temp said it on ESPN.com. They targeted Horford 23 times last night. That's my gas. Yeah. According to the second spectrum, the second most isolations against any player in a single game since the player tracking started in 2013, 2014, he

allowed 0.39 points per direct play. The second best efficiency by any player to defend at least 15 isolations in a game the last 12 seasons. The Lakers deciding what we like here is attacking Al and watching Al spread out one-on-one, 25 feet away from the basket, getting down into a stance and fighting through every one of these hunting switches. Like I lost track of other stuff

that was happening in the game because I was having, you know, you never noticed like something in a game and you go, hey, I gotta start watching the game. Like you're focused. I couldn't stop watching him and just like out, I couldn't, I was so impressed with him that he held up that way. And then I thought, okay, are they going to get like, are they just wearing him

out to the point where this is going to become a real problem later on? And look, they got the huge lead Lakers make a big comeback there, but Horford was a story. He's really comfortable at least banging with LeBron, which is funny because there was that whole stretch when LeBron just owned the Hawks and, um, and they've, even though his minutes are the same this year, it doesn't feel like they've used them in the same way as they've been way more bubble wrap you with him. And then if they really need them, they'll unleash them in a game like that. I agree with you. He was, uh, he's awesome. I don't understand how he's still doing it. I was surprised the Lakers. They didn't try to get Reeves going a

little bit more. Cause I think that's somebody that Celtics have had trouble matching up with. Just those kind of herky jerky guards in general seem to do okay against them. But I thought the Lakers just got too trapped into this idea of what they thought they, they wanted to do. It was also a really weird Luka game who clearly wasn't a hundred percent. My dad was, my dad went to the game. He was texting me and he was just like, what's wrong with Luka? Like I started getting those texts pretty early. Like something's not right. He doesn't seem right. Um, and just, he just seemed off and then LeBron got hurt, which, you know, um, he, he tweet the groin.

We'll see how long he's out, but this is the problem when you're overcompensating for these other things that are missing and you can fly around and you can look really good in a Thursday night game, but it's not sustainable. It's not a game that you can play. It's not a game thatensating for these other things that are missing and you can fly around and you can look really good in a Thursday night game, but it's not sustainable. You can't, can't put that kind of rebound and defense pressure on the bronze. So, you know, he might, they might drop out, drop down now to like the four or five seed, we might get Lakers warriors.

Brown waters is not inconceivable at this point, which I think would, uh, would be just a nut series. One thing I noticed before LeBron got hurt. I like, this is the most fun I think I've had watching him since that, since the COVID season. Um, just some of the decisions, some of the ways he was attacking the Celtics, how comfortable athletically he was. It was actually looking a little 2018, Lebronish to me, that whole run he had

in the Cavs team, but he has obviously better teammates. I, uh, I still would not want to see this team in a series, even if they don't have a center. I assume they're going to have at least Ruby and Hayes when they get to a series, but, um, how fast that they can make up these little eight point whatever's. I just, I'm just still taking them seriously. Last night didn't change anything for me. And then from a Celtics standpoint, I thought Bob Ryan had a great tweet about

it. He said, this Celtics team is like a gifted child with a concentration problem. That's Bob Ryan's take on last night's game. Uh-huh. Cause how many times have they been up 22, 23, and they just fuck around for six minutes and the lead seven and the crowds groaning and we're like, come on guys. Let's finish the game here. They do it over and over again.

And last night was another example. So those are all my takeaways. I think leading into this, to be fair, the Lakers have and over again. And last night was another example. So those are all my takeaways. I think leading into this, to be fair, the Lakers have that overtime win against the Knicks, which was an awesome game on Thursday. They had been home since the last week of February. So they started a home stand. I think they would have been home from Denver,

probably the 23rd of February, if they didn't come back. So it's their first time they're on the road. That game's March 8th, Boston sat a bunch of guys against Philly. Like Boston should have been up for that game, should have been better rested. And when the line came out, it was like five and a half. I remember thinking like, I don't know, this might, this might be a spot. I guess the Lakers part of it has been really hard for me because I can't believe they're this good defensively.

And they've won all of these games. And the one thing that you thought when they added Luca, you go, okay, well, how's that perimeter going to hold up defensively? And then LeBron cranks it back up after having stretches this season where it looked like he was a liability defensively. But you'd imagine you got to give them the benefit of the doubt in a playoff series, but I'm with you. I went to, as we talked about last week, a bunch of Lakers games in a pretty quick amount of time. Like I just, I know you're like the new Diane Cannon. I know it's you, Diane Cannon and Lou Adler. Just go to Laker games.

One day, one day bill, but watching LeBron shot making, like, this is not why you're listening to the pods. Like here's the, let's say that LeBron's good at basketball, but the shot making in the angle stuff and these fadeaways that he's incorporated where you expect it to go in every single time, like I can't believe how often he's making these shots, the takeoff and the starting point of it, like that's, that's going to go in. Yeah. And so, you know, whether we're talking all NBA stuff and then you look at like

the points per possession and what he's done, um, and his life should be easier. His life should be easier now with Luca, where I think, you know, there's a version of it going back to peak Miami LeBron, where you just never wanted the ball out of his hands, even though, you know, Wade is an incredible player and what he would offer in here. I think the Luca part of it makes his life a little bit easier. So I don't put a ton of stock in a last night's game

because I think the way it was set up, like you would expect Boston was gonna win that one. Well, so they dialed up the minutes. I mean, they went for it. Like Tatum didn't come out for the first like 19 minutes of the game. He played 45 last night. He just played all the way through.

Yeah, he went all the way through. They took him out for like a minute in the game. He played 45. He just played all the way through. Yeah, he went all the way through. They took him out for like a minute in the second quarter. I was like, Jesus, I think they really wanted it because the Lakers kicked their ass. It was interesting though, my dad after the game, because I FaceTimed him this morning and we were breaking it down. And he was like, I thought they were scarier with Davis.

That way, which I thought was a great zag by him. I don't know if he's eligible now to come on first take and just like zag hard against Perk and SAS, but, um, but he was just like, I, he was like, I thought that team was really hard for us to play because how big enough physical they were. And now it's like, you know, he, and he's made the same point that I was thinking watching the game and the announcers talked about too, like Jaylen loves playing against Luka for some reason.

I don't know what it is, but Luka brings out the best out of Jaylen and Jaylen really feels like he goes into these Luka games. Like we're at least going to be a draw in these games and the rest of my team is better. So, uh, yeah, I, I still feel like when it comes down to the playoffs and those two guys trying to figure out At least one of them's out there all the time all the shit we've talked about forever I actually think we can't talk about this lakers team enough. This is such a fascinating situation To have this one guy who's one of the greatest players of all time

Who's playing as well as he's played in five years and then this other guy who had a chance to be the future of the league Who's on his team? I've I think i've watched every quarter of the Lakers since these two guys have been playing together. Like I can't get enough of it. I was gonna ask you this about the Boston part of it. Yeah. So the Bob Ryan thing is really funny, right?

Yeah. It's really funny. And clearly you watch him a ton. I watched them a lot. And I started to have the same feelings again, where it's like, why are you guys waiting so late to go into your offense? Now it's shut down. Now it's Jalen Brown pulling up from this 15, 17 foot. Like these are, these are tough shots. And honestly, it feels like Jalen makes more of them than I expected.

He was really good last night for most of the game. But there's just a lot of those shots. You're like, that's what you guys are gonna settle with. You're gonna have four people watching. And I think I did it when I did my horrible 15 teams in 15 minutes, it took 40 minutes. The whole gag is that it's supposed to be 30 teams in 30 minutes and I tried really hard to keep it to 30 minutes and I think I did an hour.

So I'll try to fix that next year. But every time you start going through this boss stuff, you're like, okay, well, let me look at the offense. All right, top five offense. Let me look up the clutch offense. Okay, it's third in the NBA behind Cleveland and Denver. So do you think you watch the Celtics too much and you take it more personally

when they get bogged down into bad offensive sets, when they have a lead or it seems like they're settling, they take too late to get into stuff, maybe get a little hunt happy when there's really no number that tells you it's that much of a flaw. It's a, I've watched too much of this team thing when they're up 23, I don't feel safe at all. I'm just waiting for stupid shit to happen. And that's, that's the biggest criticism I can have.

I guess they're up 91 69. I'm like, all right, there's the biggest criticism I can have. I guess they're up 9169. I'm like, all right, there's going to be a run here. I'm just going to just hopefully, hopefully Joe Maz will call, sniff it out, call time out before it gets too bad. And then it happens. You look at the net rating. So the last 20 games, they're still fourth. They're 15 and five in their last 20.

They're plus 7.8. They haven't been like as kick ass as I think they were in this stretch last year. And if you look at the top six teams who I think are Cleveland, OKC, and Boston drop off Denver Lakers, Golden state as the teams that have a chance to win the title. Minnesota I think has to be considered maybe as like a wild, wild, wild card. Who the fuck knows. And then Detroit has just been awesome with advanced metrics for, uh, like 25, 30 games and that's been our top eight.

Um, I, I just would have thought that Celtics would be doing a little bit better that's if you're going to talk about like as Celtic fan, what am I concerned about? They're not dominating like they did last year in some of these games. Whereas OKC, it feels like OKC is usually going to be up 20, 25 against a shitty team and the Souths that's like, well, maybe they will now they've been resting dudes, like they had that Portland game the other night where they were just like, Hey Pritchard and white, just shoot, shoot the lights out. They had another game where it's basically just Tatum and a bunch of G leaguers.

So they've been using the schedule and that's that is some of the net rating stuff, but, um, I'd like to see them go on one little streak here before the, uh, playoffs a little like what Cleveland's doing right now. Okay. Do you think it's stretch? Do you think it has anything to do with Przingus in and out though? Or you like it might do a flow. Yeah.

No, you're right. It might. Um, let's talk all NBA. We're gonna bring in Brian Curtis in a couple of minutes. Let's talk on NBA really quick. I can't remember with 20 games left, the first team already being done. Cause it's going to be Yoke, Ejtaitim, Giannis, SGA and Mitchell. Um, especially with, there might've been some sort of LeBron push with how good he's been the last like six, seven weeks, but now if he's going to miss some time,

that's probably out. Uh, I don't see there, if there's any way, I don't see any of those guys losing their spot. I think that's a wrap. Um, but then we get to the second and third teams and I think it see any of those guys losing their spot. I think that's a rep. Um, but then we get to the second and third teams and I think it's going to be a free for all where, you know, if you only want to take two guards for the second team, it's Edwards and Brunson and Cade, you have to pick two, or you can tweak it and cheat and just put all three of them on there.

I think LeBron is clearly second team on NBA at this point with the way he's played the last two months and then centers between towns and triple J. If you want to do a center for the hell of it. I also feel like Mowgli and Jaylen Williams have to be on there just because of how well their teams are. I think both of those teams should have two all NBAs. And then after that, you could talk to me and have 15 guys, but is there anything as you kind of look, cause we're going to do this every week. We'll call it all NBAs. And then after that you could talk to me and have 15 guys, but is there anything as you kind of look, cause we're going to do this every week.

We'll call it all NBA watch. Is there any sort of storyline you're looking at to see? Could this guy pass this guy? Could this guy lose his spot? Cause for me, Katie's not an all NBA guy. If they're going to be an under 500 team. Yeah, I wrote down Katie. There's so many names that I had to write down where I

think we've had other years where you're like, I think it's like 17 for 15, and then there's the line and you knew. Um, the LeBron push would have been interesting if you wanted to put Tatum at guard. Right. Now, would you, would you have agreed with that? So LeBron versus Mitchell for first team spot basically? Yeah. And that's really tough for first team spot, basically. Yeah.

Yeah. That's really tough for me because Cleveland Mitchell's so important. What Cleveland does. I really feel like wind should matter at least a little in this. I feel like his stats would be better if the team wasn't as good as it is. There's some games where he plays like 28 minutes. It's not his fault. They're beating teams by 25.

Now it's kind of taken care of itself because the growing injury, especially being older already with a one to two week thing, like you hope this doesn't linger that it changes because I really want to see what LA can do. Like I'm excited about them now being raised to a level of actually having expectations where I don't really think I had that many expectations for him a couple months ago, but you could, if you wanted to do that, because Tatum basically plays point card, um, so I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch, even though he's not going to be listed as a guard with Drew and Derek White out there and even

Jaylen Brown, so forget that. I think you're right with Mitchell rewarding Cleveland. He's the best player. Uh, so I think the LeBron thing kind of takes care of itself. And Mitchell has been awesome in big games too. I think he deserves it. I'm not even saying I was, I just thought at least like being creative. What was the other argument if we wanted to try to play around with the idea that

it wasn't like set in stone for first team. Lebron, like the last six weeks at something like 29, 10 and seven, something like that. And he's playing defense again. And he's playing like great defense and he's like their best rebounder. So I don't know. He was in there, he had forged his way into the combo. There's no question. He's at 58 games though. So it'll be interesting. Is he going to be able to get seven more out of the, I don't know how many more. So if you had to pick two of Edwards, Brunson, Cade, if you're going to go traditional,

how would you rank those three just with the all NBA seasons they're having. Cause I would have Brunson Cade, Edwards third. Cause I think what Cade's doing on Detroit is unbelievable. Yeah. Uh, I would say though, like I get the end thing and stats are great. Records are on there. It's a battle. So the same record, I mean, Minnesota has one more win.

They both have 29 losses. So I think you could probably, if you really wanted to push and say, well, Ant's doing it, 36-29 with this team. In the West, I had Kade third team. But I think Brunson, it seems like we're both, I think it's kind of interesting that both of us start with Brunson and then it's the other spot.

Well, if Brunson misses four weeks with that ankle injury, maybe that flips, not his fault, but that might be the thing. Do you have Kat's second team? It's Kat versus Triple J. I think there's been some tough Kat games lately. You agree? Been a couple cringers.

Yeah, but he's been so good. He didn't even take a shot in that. He didn't take a shot in the Laker game in the fourth quarter of OT. They didn't even run a play for him. Yeah, but I think, you know, look, what he's done over the full course of the season has been pretty remarkable.

Especially if we were going by traditional center. He's actually played center 54 games. I get it. I just think with Jackson on Memphis, um, that team's 38 and 24. Although they've lost four straight and they never seem to know if Jaws playing or not and, uh, he's the most reliable guy they have. I would, I had towns, but I don't, he's, he's not in Penn. So were you doing three forwards and two guards

then second team? I right now had Townes, LeBron, Edwards, Brunson, and Cade. I had them all in, but I'm not gonna keep it that way because I'm still gonna go traditional even though they gave us the out to fuck around with the positions. What about Mobley? I had Mobley third team.

And if it has to be two forwards, I would move Mowgli to second team because of the defense and some of the other stuff. And I gotta say, I think Jalen Williams has to be a third team right now with the record of that team. And then it's just wide open after that. Because the way Jalen Brown has played

for the last four or five weeks, I think he's played himself back into the combo. Um, Hardin's got to be in there. Halliburton has been a lot better lately. Garland at least like I wrote the name down. Yeah, he's how he's in the conversation again. Um, Garland is in like the distant conversation. What about Steph?

Who would you go, Steph or Garland? Well, Steph is the distant conversation. What about Steph? Who would you go, Steph or Garland? Well, Steph is the other one. And I, and the way Steph has been playing, I would have Steph over Garland because I think what's happening to Steph. Steph's the one to watch. Steph's the one with the arrow pointing next to him in the, on the record charts. Cause he's got the swagger back. Did you watch, did you end up watching Pistons Warriors last night?

Yeah, I watched it after the Lakers. I had one of the small TVs. Big Stu. Big Stu is just like, I'm getting, he's like, I'm starting something with somebody. He's on the bench. He starts something anyway, but, uh, they played two really good games this year, Pistons and Warriors. Pistons, making a late run for league pass MVP. The Rockets had it locked up 40 games into the air. Now the Pistons making a late run for league pass MVP. The Rockets had it locked up 40 games into the year.

Now the Pistons are like, they're climbing up. They're they, they've just had a lot of good ones. The Pistons made it hard on them. You just kind of expected Golden State's going to put together a few nice possessions here and it's going to be a wrap. And it just, it wasn't, I mean, Draymond Green hit the three of all people to kind of close the game out. Comfortable three.

They made it really hard on Golden State. Like those possessions towards the last, I don't know, six minutes or so, or the fourth quarter, and this Beasley story's been unbelievable. And like, all those guys want to get into it with you. And that's why I feel like big Stu was left out. It was a massive overreaction getting upset with Steph, feeling on himself a little bit. He was in front of their bench,

but it wasn't like he was falling down on the guys. But Stewart doesn't care, and teams need guys like that. He's going after Steph and LeBron in his career. And that has to be the only person. I hope there's not like a magic appreciation night for the next time the Pistons play the Lakers. Just walk right up to them. Kerr had a, they had one of those post-game locker room speeches

after the Brooklyn game. Kerr gave a speech and you know, it was basically like an NFL film speech, but, um, at the end was talking about, we know we're going to win these close games down, we know how good we are in these close games. Like he basically, their whole thing for the first 45, 50 games of the year was, why do we suck in the clutch? We have Steph Curry, why aren't we winning these games?

How are we blowing these games late? What the fuck is happening? This team now, and you can feel it last night with the Pistons game, which was a tight game and it was a back and forth, and I was watching and thinking the words are going to win the key play of the game. Jimmy Butler left corner takes Tobias off and hits like an 18 footer.

And it was like, they just didn't have that. You couldn't go to Wiggins in that spot. Right. It's just whatever happened that Butler trade, everyone fell into place. Moody became a better defensive guy. And, uh, I I'm taking them very seriously still. Golden state. Could they win four straight rounds?

Probably not, but would I want to see them in any round? Would I want to see them in any round? No. Would they be totally comfortable playing? Okay. See, yes, they love playing. Okay. See those games are always good with that.

They're always wide open and crazy. And, uh, I think they could absolutely hang with them in a series. I don't think they would win it, but I think they could hang. You could be asking a lot of loony against okay. See, because you'd have to go back to that and they've liked using Quinton post here just to space it out. That makes it last night. Last night, big air ball last night.

Yeah. It's interesting though, like looking around the league, you're seeing teams go with some of this double big stuff. Boston's been doing a little bit more when Przingus is playing. Oklahoma City basically admitted, hey, the rest of this year, we're kind of experimenting with what we have here.

And there'll be times where I think, okay, they're going to split Chet and Hart up again, and then they bring them both out. And that speaks to just, you want to talk about an organization that's okay, night to night going, let's see what we have and what these combinations look like. And have we found something with this double big Houston's been doing it where it's a little bit different depending on what, how you want to describe it with Shungun or Jabari, but

they've been doing Steven Adams with Jabari. There's been some of these teams that have tried some of this double big stuff, but then I've also watched nights where teams are just closing it out really, really small. And I don't know if some of these teams that would prefer to close small are going to run into something in a playoff matchup where it's just, it's just too much. Like where PJ Tucker was trying to play center for the Rockets. I don't know if it'll be that extreme. PJ Tucker on the Knicks now. They said experienced veteran and an enforcer. The Knicks now. They said experienced veteran and an enforcer. Okay.

That's great. That's great, Knicks. Good for the Knicks. On paper, makes sense. We're gonna take a break and come back with our friend, Brian Curtis. All right, we're bringing in a third party here to spruce things up.

It's like an episode of White Lotus. Brian Curtis is here, editor at large of The Ring of Yerum and the Press Box, a great podcast. Also Dallas fan. Is Dallas gonna be okay, Curtis? What, give us the update. What's the mood in Dallas right now?

Did you see that sad Mark Cuban interview? Yeah. He finally broke his silence and he said, part of the reason I wanted to sell the team is because I didn't want my kids to make a move like trading away Luca in his prime. And then they would get roasted on social media. I was like, I don't know if that's the reason you sold the team.

Yeah. I'm not going to buy that story. Mark Cuban. How bad can this get worse? How would it get worse at this point? I don't know. How would it get worse at this point? I don't know. Rossello, do you ever remember an NBA fan base being this upset at a team before since

you followed basketball? Seattle. Oh yeah. I guess that's the last level. The team actually has to just move. Let me ask you this. Would you rather be a Sonics fan or a Mavericks fan? Well, if you're a Sonics fan, you know, you're at least getting an expansion team.

Right. But they're just gone. Whereas now with the Mavs, they're still here. And I'm so glad you brought up that Cuban quote. He has been on a bender of quotes the last couple of years. There's just no way that you were like, you know what? The number one priority is my offspring avoiding criticism, being faced with a task or something like this.

At least he had said, make a better deal. Like finally, he said what everybody else had collectively agreed to here. Cause whenever that trade, I mean, like I still haven't gotten over it. You just see people on TV like, Hey, people are acting like Anthony. No one's acting like Anthony Davis is bad. We can't believe this trade happened is the only point in the way that it, that it happened, which we've already covered a million different times. Um, so I was glad to hear Cuban say that just do a better deal.

We still don't know why Cuban sold, why he sold when he did what the reasons for there's, there's some not so conspiracy conspiracy theories about it. It was an organization that had gotten into some trouble behind the scenes in a couple of different ways. There was always rumors about maybe he wasn't as liquid as people thought, but, and it was a deal that he made like a year before the deal actually happened. And weirdly he sold pretty low for what the value of the franchise probably was, considering he had a top five guy.

There's still some stuff that hasn't added up for me. Would you agree, Curtis? I would, and my podcast pal in Dallas, Jake Kemp, brought up another one, which is what happened to Mark Cuban running basketball operations with the Mavericks? Well, we knew that was bullshit, though. But it wasn't covered that way, to Curtis's point.

It's crazy. True. Well, because people just bought what he was saying. It was like, no, no, I'm still gonna be involved. And that's, it's never worked that way ever. And so it was not in any contract that he signed when he sold his share of the Mavericks for 3.5 billion. This was just purely a,

hey, you can stay in on basketball thing. And Mark Cuban was cool with that. Right. Mark Cuban sold that to the public. Like these guys told me this, but it's not in this incredibly complicated contract I just signed to sell the team. Well it's interesting cause he's not getting villainized at all for the Luca

thing. And it's a little similar to, um, when the Sonics left Seattle and everybody blamed the guys that bought the team and then moved them to OKC. This is, we did the Sonic boom podcast about it, but Howard Schultz, the guy that owned the Sonics, the Starbucks guy, he was just as big of a villain because he sold the team to these guys knowing they were probably gonna move him. But then he's like, well, I didn't know that, you know, you can play dumb, you can do all you want.

In this case, Cuban's selling the franchise to these guys who clearly didn't know what this family, they clearly didn't know what they were doing, who knows what their intentions were. And it's almost like, could he have put in the deal you're not allowed to trade Luka Dacic for the entire 2020s? Like maybe he should have put something in there like that. But that's not why we brought Brian Curtis on. NBA media discourse in 2025, it feels like we're in the weirdest place we've ever been culminating on Thursday night between the third and fourth quarter of a

Lakers game on national TV. LeBron James walks over and gets in, um, Stephen A Smith's face about stuff he said about his son. And it goes viral that night and Stephen A, he wasn't, you know, he feels like he had to address it, right, Rossello? He might not have addressed it otherwise, but once it went viral, he didn't want to.

He didn't want to. Might not ever come up, he had to address it. And then it's this two, three day cycle. Where are we going, Curtis? What's the end game here? What's the end game here? What is the end game with just the media getting louder and louder and becoming part of the story in all these different ways?

Something that I'm not sure anybody likes, but it just feels like we're getting more and more of it. It's so funny because not only do we have Stephen A. reluctantly addressing it on First Take, and then on his podcast also, also reluctant. Because he had more to say. The two hour show wasn't enough. My other favorite detail was that he mentioned

he was sitting with Ari Emanuel and Larry David. Yes. Not germane to the LeBron confrontation, but just wanted to let everybody know that that's who we're sitting with there. In the Curb Your Enthusiasm trip, Shaq seats, same seats. Anyway. Yeah, he also said, you know, if LeBron called me,

I would take the call. Right. So I would not send the most famous basketball player in the world to voicemail repeatedly. We did clear that up. It's good to hear. In the thing. By the way, we can talk about,

there's so many things to talk about, but the whole Stephen A thing that really, that got me was he said, you know, why didn't LeBron or why didn't Clutch call me and hash this out? And I'm, you know, in certain ways, we can talk about the Brawny part of this, because I think I'm sympathetic to a lot of

what Stephen A had said about Brawny and the idea that somehow Brawny is, talking about Brawny is talking about your family and crossing this red line. Like I don't totally buy that, but the whole idea is like, wait, if we say something on a podcast or he says something on television,

does that mean the person who's aggrieved can only respond to us privately? Right. So we say it publicly, but then they need to keep all their business behind closed doors. Like, wait, if you had a problem, why didn't you call me?

Well, you said it on TV, whatever I'm upset about. Right. Like, shouldn't they, they're media figures too in a way, shouldn't they? I don't know. Anyway, that also tripped me up a little bit. Doing it during a game was pretty unusual. That was different. I don't know if that's happened before.

I think it's a win for LeBron though. I think it's a win for LeBron in that moment because it looks cool. It does. Well, especially he's what, six inches taller, five inches taller. it looks cool. It does. Well, especially he's what six inches taller, five inches taller. He looks intimidating. Yeah.

See, I think he's a pretty theatrical guy and it was a moment to kind of look like this whole thing gets really, really weird because if somebody's like, Hey, that's just a father caring about his son, like you don't tell somebody that they're wrong about it. But the reason why the rules for this has changed is that ultimately once Ronnie has an NBA uniform on, this is, this is what we do and we're going to talk about it and he's going to get way more criticism than somebody else who's not playing because of the lead up.

And that it felt like the most important thing was to show the power of clutch. If you'll get this guy a guaranteed contract for three years, because I think the fourth year is an option. So it's a big win. Look what we can do. We pulled this off and all this stuff and it's kind of celebrated by the Lakers. Like, look at this, they're going to make history. They were smart, get it over with, have him play with his father immediately.

I think there's elements of it where you can go, okay, I understand that part of it. I think they misunderstood how nasty he was going to get if he continued to look like the player that those of us that did the draft tape for his USC thing where it just felt like he never really stood out. But you remember selling the selling point of Ronnie was that he was a glue guy. Like who takes glue guys in the draft? Right. Yeah.

He's six one, not a point guard, not a shooter, glue guy. Who's the comp? Is he Davion Mitchell ultimately? That was the question. Could it be Davion Mitchell who's like a ninth man? Okay, but I don't know Curtis if you're probably a little bit more tuned into it than I am, but do you feel like Stephen A had crossed a line that deserved that showdown, that stare down with LeBron?

So, there's not a, like, you know, Library of Congress transcript of everything Stephen A said about Brawny, which I wouldn't have had time to read even if there was. But I think this all starts in January. There's that game against the Sixers. And Stephen A had a couple of hits after that about Brawny. But really what he said was LeBron is putting his son in a bad situation. He's shadow GMing his son to the Lakers.

He has the tweet, what was that now, two years ago, like Brawny's better than guys I'm watching on League Pass. It sets him up as being really, really good. And then he put him in a bad situation. And that as his dad, and as one of the greatest basketball players of all time, you should know that this isn't a great place for him to be in right now.

It's just not, that was the point. I mean, again, and again, it's Stephen A. So it has, you know, I'm not doing it justice probably. And if LeBron's watching that, I'm sure he can find some phrase or something to latch onto. But that was the point and that's a discussion you guys have had 1000 times about LeBron James and the Lakers. Well, I think when you get to the opening night and you put the Griffey's courtside

and you do all that stuff, you're bringing attention to something and then to expect people not to discuss it and the merits of it, I think seems pretty naive. I think Ken Griffey, You know, I thought- I think Ken Griffey, senior, turned to junior, was like, so he go number one too? Right. Or did he go, what the fuck? Like, we were amazing.

I don't know, I just feel bad for Brawny. Like, that's why we haven't really talked about it that much on this pod, you know. He seems like a nice kid, I've always heard good things about him. And I don't necessarily think he asked to be in this situation, but to expect people not to talk about it is pretty nuts.

But the bigger- What I loved though was like the lead up to it. And then he was drafted and then you had people on TV all of a sudden that were pro- Trying to tuck themselves into it. Yeah, but they were pro-nepotism. They were just like, this is a good thing. Right. This is like,

this happens in every other walk of life. Why can't it happen here? And I just always felt like it was a really simple explanation to be like, cause this one gets a uniform. Like, this is, this is different than going the back and being in charge of travel. What's the bigger picture thing, take Lebron out of it. That Stephen A, who I think has been promoted by the network a certain way

Right as like a star on the level of the stars that we're watching in these games, right? we write down to the playoff games when they're to instead of having the walk-ins with You know, Jalen Brunson or whoever it's Stephen a walking into a Knicks game and they're covering it like he's an all-mba guy and This just seems like the philosophy of the network now is to be loud, loud, loud, loud, loud. It used to be some sort of a balance of like, let's do some really good stuff and let's have a couple pieces of what we're doing be loud.

But for the most part, we're gonna try to be a whole bunch of things and now it seems like the loud is winning Curtis. Yeah. I, you know, when you said we haven't seen this on the court, we have seen this in the locker room a bunch of times, including by the way, with Joellen bead earlier this year, this is a pretty standard locker room media member. You know, athlete confrontation. I don't like what you said about me.

I don't like what you wrote about it, I don't like what you wrote about me, but the difference is what you point to. Stephen A had almost literally just agreed to a hundred million dollar a year contract. He's the face of the network. 100 million total contract, 100 million a year would be a lot. Excuse me, yes, that's a lot. But he's the face of the network,

and as you say, it's a face of ESPN's approach. And with ESPN, I think there's an interesting question of whether they're doing more of this kind of stuff, or whether the other face of ESPN's approach. And with ESPN, I think there's an interesting question of whether they're doing more of this kind of stuff or whether the other stuff at ESPN has just been stripped away to such a degree that this becomes a bigger part of ESPN. You see what I mean? Like when you get rid of Zach Low, when you chop off all these parts of ESPN, Stephen A is just going to be a larger part of the network.

He's just going to seem bigger whether he actually is, you know, occupying more hours of air time or not. What do you think, Priscilla? Do you feel like there's been a subtle shift of how they're presenting stuff? Is this just the way social media and the way people follow sports in 2025? Is this just they're serving the red meat to the people who want to eat the red meat? What is this? I've argued now for years where I felt like I finally figured it out is that the audience gets what we want.

So I think the audience actually does like this stuff. I had more friends ask me about who side I was on between LeBron and Steven A than any other basketball question I've been asked by my friends this entire season. So I think it is a win for ESPN. I think it's a win for Steven A. I mean, you can get into whether or not somebody should be doing this on TV. Like remember four years ago when he went at Durant and like looked at the camera. It was like, give me the, give me the solo shot.

It was like, you don't want to go at me. And I remember watching it going, would I ever, would I ever be at a position where I was threatening somebody else? Right. On TV. I don't know that I'd ever really want to be that way, but I mean, this is all whether it's, it's good or bad. It's all a win. It's all a win for Steven A. We spent 20 minutes talking about him. And this is exactly what he would want. So that's what we had.

I think that's how you keep score of this. Yeah. A couple days earlier, Barkley had that whole thing. He starts the show, they clearly planned on, I'm gonna take some shots at the competition. And then Steve Nates spun it after, like he wasn't talking about me, Charles and I are good.

And it was like, I think he was talking about your whole, the first take in Countdown. He was definitely talking about the way ESPN covers basketball, which you're a part of. It wasn't just directed at Perkins, but then Perkins came back, and that was another thing that happened. All of this happened, I think, the same day,

where we had rival guys on two different networks taking shots at each other, who might end up, they're not really working together because they're producing a show out of Atlanta and then the Steve Nay thing. And it's just like, is this just what we are now? Yeah, and it ends with Kenan Thompson wearing a beard on Weekend Update. Like that's, that was...

Doing a Perkins impersonation. Yeah, we got a Trump parody and we got a, we got a Perk parody. Like that's, that's life in America. But think about that. There's someone doing a Kendrick Perkins impersonation on Saturday Night Live. That's a win for Kendrick Perkins. 100%. That's a perk parody. Like that's life in America. Right. Think about that. There's someone doing a Kendrick Perkins impersonation on Saturday Night Live. That's a win for Kendrick Perkins.

100%. It's a big win. 100%. If you had said, hey, do you think this will happen one day? Right. You'd be like, no. What? You'd be like, well, how would Perkins

ever be relevant enough for somebody to be doing an impersonation of him in Saturday Night Live? So there you go. That's the win for him. So I think all of these things are wins, not that, you know, hey, all PR is good PR, because I think I'd push back on a few stories, uh, from famous people who are like, I don't know if that's good. I don't know if that's going to help that person.

But the TNT countdown deal, like TNT gets to be a show. Like there can be plenty of shows that I like or don't like on certain nights. If I wanted to sit here and bash TNT, I could and go, you mean the show that in this, in this world where the NBA is trying to figure out where it fits in and all the criticisms of it and the projections of different ratings arguments that I think some are valid and a lot are terrible where you have all of these players from previous eras just shitting on the product all the time. But then that's why everybody kind of loves the show, but at least they're

allowed to be a show when they're done with the second game on Thursday night, those guys hang out all night and it's loose. And they get to be a real studio show. And when I look at what ESPN asks of it's on air, people, I don't even think it's a fair fight, even if you don't like anyone that's on ESPN, which I wouldn't say that's my position. There's some people where I'm like, okay, you know what? I like where this person's coming from.

All right, this one I probably know when I'm gonna get here. I don't watch a ton of them because I have to watch so many games that I don't wanna spend extra time watching studio stuff. Like when the second TNT game's over, I'll probably go and watch another game that I wasn't really watching that closely.

But whenever anything's compared to TNT, I don't know that people in television, well, people in television should understand. I don't know that people in television, well, people in television should understand, I don't know that we talk about enough of the room that they're given to be the show that everybody else wants to emulate but never lets their people on air have the same opportunity and same structure.

Yeah, it's eight minute half times, it's an hour after the game. Eight minute half time, are you serious? I mean, I'm saying an eight minute segment just in a row. ESPN segment might be three minutes. You know, you have four people, you gotta move around. They'll actually have a conversation. I was always jealous of it.

Yeah, I feel like with these pregame, postgame half time shows, the postgame show is always gonna win, Curtis, because you're reacting to something we just saw. It's the same reason why we do a lot of emergency pods or pods right after games, because it's like, this just happened. What'd you think is always going to win. And ESPN, a lot of their stuff is steered toward coming up later. What do you think's going to happen?

I think this is going to happen. I think Jalen Brown's going to have a big game. It's just not because you're, you know, there's only so much you can do with that stuff, but being able to react to what just happened is a huge advantage. The other thing is the TNT show's a comedy show. Like my wife will be sitting next to me,

like on her phone, and when those guys come on and she sees Barkley, like she's interested for six minutes cause she thinks those guys are funny. And I don't, you know, no other show has that, I don't think. I completely agree about the post-game thing. And that's why the late sports center with SVP is often better because he's got the guy

who just won the game, he's doing the breakdown of the game whereas football and basketball. I felt some of the angst from the TNT thing is about moving to ESPN too. I mean, that was clearly part of it, right? Hey, we got this great show over here. We're moving over there.

We all about- But they're really not. They're doing it out of Atlanta still though, right? Right, but- They're basically being simulcast on ESPN. I guess they're moving there. Do you think they're worried things are gonna change? Well, it just, it felt to me like going from

place A to place B was part of the subtext of that. We created this, we won, right? For 20 years, we won the studio show war over ESPN. Now they're paying us to come over there. Some of us got new contracts, which we heard a ton about for the last year and change, to go over there. But it also felt like that was a little bit

of what Barkley was saying. Those bozos over there, whatever word he used, and now we're going over there. That was interesting to me. Well, do you feel so the main, his main critique was all they do is talk about the Lakers and, and, uh, you know, and the Celtics and the Knicks and you know, that's and Steven A's response was, well, we have two hours and we have eight segments. I mean, if, and if you do, I haven't watched a lot of two hour first takes, but they do bounce around a lot of stuff. What they lead with is usually the biggest teams.

And Marcello, they've been doing that since you were a young pup there. They're always going to push people toward talk Lakers, talk Cowboys, talk Yankees, like whoever the biggest teams are. always going to push people toward talk Lakers, talk Cowboys, talk Yankees, like whoever the biggest teams are. Yeah. But I mean, it's also a group on TNT who takes pride in not knowing who any of the players are. So like spare me the fucking deep dives guys. How come you're not talking about who's better in half court?

How can you not talking about switches more? I mean, those guys don't talk about any of that stuff. So I don't, and honestly, I don't know that anybody really wants it. Hasn't everybody tried this? Haven't all of us that are like basketball and football nerds, haven't we always talked about how much we would love the idea of all these matchup shows and these deep dive stuff and film study and let's show it? Like we've talked about it. Nobody ever wants to do it. And when they had it on the NFL, when I used to watch that before the countdown show back when I was a kid and Edsau Pal and those guys, I loved it.

I loved it. And he, and check this out third and seven, the interior feet of hunt at 22 are too far inside the hashes and Neil O'Donnell knows he has the go route to the outside. So you know, maybe I was a moron and just thought it was all brilliant shit, but I liked it and there's nobody does it. No, I mean, there's people on YouTube doing it and some breakdowns. So I don't know if their numbers are really good. Maybe there's some people out there that are doing some really good stuff.

But as far as like brand name networks giving you that, is it because everybody in TV is stupid? Or is it because people are going to tune in or click on the tab of Steve and A responds to the Brawny disagreement? Well, that's how they're getting on the last thing. That's how they sell the headlines of the stuff too. Yeah. And it's, it's not a apples to apples. Cause if Charles Barkley was hosting a show every weekday morning The a block would not be thunder and cats. It's just not exactly Yeah, the show would not that would just they would not leave with it I also think that ESPN actually and maybe you'll be surprised they get so much

unwarranted shit Just because they're the one partner that has all of these other slots to fill. If TNT didn't have charmed reruns, okay, and bones, and they had the next guy coming on to talk about something, you know, same thing with like CBS and NFL and the network partners for the, if, if those channels were actually just 24 hour sports stuff, then you would find more stuff that you would have a problem with. Look, I don't, I don't love all the coverage that I see. It's not for me.

That's fine. Um, I know I'm not, I'm not really the person any of that stuff is targeted towards, but I think that's always lost in that there's so many more things to criticize with ESPN because there's just so much more real estate compared to all of these other partners. What is the strategy? If you had to describe a big picture content strategy for them as we head into the heart of the mid 2020s here, Curtis, what would it be? I think every decision or just about every decision they've made over the last couple of years goes to two things. Get ready for the first ever ESPN Superbowl in two years. That's Joe and Troy.

That's SVP to Monday night countdown. That's changing the producer, Monday night football, et cetera. Number two, get ready for the launch of flagship this fall. Their streaming service. And when you think about it like that, you're like, why was around the horn canceled? Oh, not bucket number one, not bucket number two. Why is Zach Lowe no longer there when he's the best basketball writer on the planet? Oh, not number one, not number two. And to me, it's so focused on those two things, especially the second thing, especially flagship, that if you just read it like that, the decisions, whether we agree with them or not,

start to all make sense to me. And that includes the social media strategy and how they use a lot of those clips because they're just pushing interest and fervor toward that flagship thing, which begs the bigger question, do you think the flagship thing's gonna work? That's a question, but that to me

is that's their existential question. Like we have to get this thing to work. We're moving out of cable world, we're moving into streaming world, this thing has to work. Every decision, right? Why do we pay so much for the college football playoff again? Why do we buy the SEC?

Why do we do, that's all flagship stuff. And when you get left out of that conversation, if you're ESPN radio, let's say, right, mentioned around the horn, if you're not in that directly, is there a place anymore? Do they do, are they that worried about you? And I think the answer is obviously no. Well, so where does this stuff like all the weird original stuff they do on ESPN plus like some of the stuff Omaha does, like does that stuff, is that part of their

plan or is it just going to be game rights and reaction shows and that's the future of the company? I think it's mostly that though. I think they do like stars and since that's manning stuff, maybe that gets grandfathered in to the plan, right? Cause if you're, if you're a star, then you get to do different things. Right. Right. Cause if you're, if you're a star, then you get to do different things.

Right. Hmm. Um, on the, uh, on the Barkley being on ESPN next year piece of it, and just that show in general, look, who knows, it doesn't feel like it's going to go great. It's, it's just, it's like one of those when, uh, when Conan took over Jay Leno show and Jay Leno didn't want to leave. And there was just, even before it started, you're like, ah, this something feels off.

I just, somebody delivering a show to ESPN that they're not in control of, which we're seeing now with McAfee, which I, I'm sure they have mixed opinions on. Um, but just in Barkley, who just doesn't give a shit anymore, is the other piece of this, right? And Kenny, I'm not sure he really cares. They're just gonna go and they're gonna push and they're gonna tweak and they're gonna do their thing. It really has a chance to be fascinating, I think.

And I don't know how it plays out. Well, I'm with Ryan. The key is to also, will it just be able to roll into the night? Because that's the magic of the show. If it, if it doesn't roll into the night, it's not inside the NBA. And the fact that it's on so late too, I think leads to the goofiness. It's you've been there all day. You've gone through the two games and then you're on those long stretches

and that game, that, that whole post game is on so late, I think it actually is an advantage because it just gets so loose. Because it's almost like none of them want to be there, but you know, Bill, I think you're right. Like Barkley has been, has been on this thing for a couple of years now. Like I might do this, I might do this, I might quit. They're going to shut down. And then you were kind of like, wait, are they not going to be on the air in 24, 25? And then you looked it up.

Nope, they're still going to be on. So I'm like, they're gonna shut down. And then you were kind of like, wait, are they not gonna be on the air in 24, 25? And then you looked it up, it's like, nope, they're still gonna be on. So I'm like, why are they talking about it this way? And then as soon as the transition is over, Barclay's gonna make fun of ESPN within 30 seconds of them going on the air, okay? And since it's going to be licensed or however, I don't know what the structure is

in comparison to some of the other stuff, Curtis, you would know better than I would, is the understanding of just keep doing your own thing. And that might be the ESPN model and that they're not really gonna worry about it the way they would worry about a studio show in the past. Because who could ever, who could ever on the TV side of ESPN

show up to those guys and be like, love what you've been doing. Have a couple of tweaks. Yeah, here are some tweaks. I don't even know if anybody would bother doing something like that. Around the horn going away, which leaves some sort of hole, which I guess there's been rumors about an hour long PTI, which I just feel like would happen over Kornheiser's dead body. I was going to say, my friend for a long time.

Does Tony want to do that? I just, he's, there's, he's so maniacally precious about the format of that show and how sustainable it's been for this whole century. Then just double it and be like, all right, more of us and we're going to have an interview. I just don't see him at his age wanting to do that. Yeah, but didn't he write a book called Back for the Cash? He might have enough cash though. I think he for the cash. Well, that's so doesn't he might have enough cash. I think he has enough cash. Um, but I do wonder, I was thinking of PTI and, and there might be a chance to

reinvent that show a little bit because when you think, and I've talked a bunch about how the content cycle has shifted in the last 15 years that I've been doing this, where it's just gotten faster and faster to the point that Sal and I went from taping Monday afternoons in the late 2000s guest Alliance to now we're doing it like literally right after an NBC game ends. And you have these guys coming out at five 30 ESPN. And it's like, if you don't watch that show when it's happening, it's got like maybe a two, three hour shelf life because we're going to run into sports.

So it's like Luke Adancic is first game back in LA. First home game. What do you think's going to happen tonight? Will Bond. Like you can't listen to that nine hours later. So I do wonder, is there a chance to reinvent the show? Do you think there it's just too stuck in its ways at this point, Curtis, or what happens and you think reinvent it, like making it longer, making it different,

making it quicker, reacts to something. Do you rebuild it? Do you rebuild the structure? Cause I think if you were doing that show now, you'd probably want it to be on at 10 in the morning. I think you would want it to be on coming off the night or nine in the morning. You'd want it coming off the night before with the same format go, I think would be a bigger advantage.

I think the five thirties really hard. I mean, have you thought about that? We're still love like, I feel like sometimes when we do pods late, I feel like it's like, this feels almost stale now when it's going to come out. Think about what the six o'clock sports center was. Like that was the marquee sports center. Okay. I remember they used to offer it to Scott all the time and Scott would just say,

I'm a games guy. I'm a games guy. Right. I want to watch the games in the studio with the staff. I want to figure out how we want to talk about the games once the games are over. I don't want to do the six and they want him to do the six all the time. And he was turning down what was thought at the time, like the Marquee slot. When's the last time you turned on the six o'clock Sports Center?

It's pretty rare at that point you're thinking about the games that are about to happen. I don't remember the last time. Well, they're not already on obviously because it's six o'clock East Coast, but I'm gearing up for the game. Oh yeah, it's three o'clock our time. Right. I'm waiting or I'm waiting until the last possible moment to turn on the TV knowing that the TV is going to be out of my house for the next six hours. I think you're right about the Kornheiser,

Wilbon thing being early, would they wanna do it? I also think a huge advantage they have over every other show is if they launched that show brand new tomorrow, would it have any traction at all? Because it's almost like radio where it's so habit forming that there's such an older generation of people that have been watching that show for 20 plus years. Because I'll hear people talk about it like,

hey, this is the only show I trust anymore. This is the only thing. Like there's all of this equity with that show, this buy-in for the show where, and again, I'm the wrong person here, but when I catch it, there's never something where I go, oh, I hadn't thought of that NBA angle. Or, wow.

Well, you're coming for the two guys. Right, it's because of their chemistry, it's because of their personality, but I don't expect Kornheiser to say something about the Oklahoma City Thunder that I never would have thought of, because I doubt he's staying up late watching Thunder Games. So there's this buy-in with those two

because of their personality, but also the habit-forming thing that you have with radio. And that's what I think is so different about that show. It's almost like this audio product that benefited from being in one of the best slots that you could have because it was leading to the six o'clock that used to matter. And, you know, Curtis knows this,

but one of the biggest things with audio is just habit. Like, why are you listening to that show? I don't know, I just like it on in the background. Like, why are you listening to that show? I don't know, I just like it on in the background. Oh, I throw it on in the car. And then you might not even like the person. What do you think, Curtis? Like, what is PTI two years from now?

Well, that's the thing is I think when we talk about ESPN as a streaming service rather than a cable channel, just the entire calculus is different because you're no longer thinking about, Hey, we got to get from five to five 30. Then we got to have another ride home show from five 30 to six. Like that, that thinking isn't the same, right? If you were watching television at five or five 30 in the afternoon and you're

choosing through a bunch of streaming options, you can watch 10,000 movies. You can watch white lotus, you can watch whatever the hell you want. So my prediction would be, it look, if they get Tony Mike to do an hour, I'm sure they'd love that, cause that shows grandfathered in, that shows a hit on its own rights. But what I would think they're gonna do

with a whole daytime lineup is just, other than the things we talked about, let's just go inexpensive, let's get through the day, because our big wins in streaming will be games and stuff attached to games. And that's it. That's the business. I just think that's what it is.

And I think the whole daytime part of ESPN gets devalued. I had a lot of- Does it matter though? Sorry, I actually just want to ask Kurt, like people in my position can get really entitled about this stuff, right? I'm never gonna work there again, but just that all of these landing spots exist for different people. You're like, how can they get rid of this? How can they get rid of all these shows?

How are you getting rid of around the horn? Why wouldn't they have done this? Do you think ESPN ultimately got to the point where it's like, okay, first take, we get a half a million viewers. We actually kind of own this slot here. There's not like there's a ton of competition midday in sports from anybody else. Obviously, Fox tried to do that at some point that hasn't worked out. Do you think the right answer, even though on air people would never want to hear it, is that why do you have all of these resources into a bunch of shows that for the most part, like there's not that many of these shows are like killing it with the ratings.

I just run video podcasts of stuff you already did? Just, just kind of chew up innings with that and save a ton of money. It is an interesting question. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened in the history of cable. That's when I was a kid. That was all cables like, Oh, press your luck reruns on for the next four hours. I mean, and I think Ryan, I think you're exactly right.

And I think the it's, but it's all of television, right? We're just so used to this thing of like, Oh, it's mid morning. That means there's game shows and then there's these, you know, soap operas are going to start all these things. And I just think the, when the future is streaming, you know, it's not happy if it's our friends that are affected by our people we like, but it's like, they just don't, it's just not that important to them anymore. It's so clear. I mean,

it like what we know this, right? They're not like, Hey, we're losing a daytime hit show. Let's come up with another one. Let's get ride home industries to come up with another one or play. They're just not thinking that way anymore. I had a great TV viewing experience the other day. Although it was a sad one too, but, um, the Bruins are trading Marshaan and there were rumors like he might be going. And my dad texted me, I'm like, what? So I'm trying to find like, is, is there an NHL trade deadline show?

What's going on here? Ended up on the NHL network. It was just two dudes. The show is out of like 1981 and they're going through info and it's, this thing is happening. I was watching it consuming in a way. And I, like, that's, that's where those shows still have an impact. Where it's like, this just happened.

How do I get information about it? You know, you'll see it like NBA trade deadlines like that, or like the, the, the day of free agency in the NBA on July 1st, um, or NFL, something happens on a Tuesday, you know, there's a trade or somebody's out for the year. It seems like the immediacy of this just happened. How do I just get any sort of information? I don't even care. I honestly don't know the names of the two guys who hosted this NHL show, but I watched it for like 45 minutes. Like they did, they didn't. It's a,

it's a conditional second. What's going on? Um, yeah, that's my NHL Network story. Rossella seems like he's enjoying it. I used to watch the MLB trade deadline stuff. Like I had a job in a front office. Right. Like I would, I worked at night, so I wasn't really taking a day off

or disrupting my normal routine, but I would sit there with a notepad and I would have my scouting books that I bought from Borders and I'd have Baseball America ready to go. And I would just sit there being like, oh my God, that's that lefty who, you know, he was just incredible against him. Wow, the Cardinals gave him up.

He was their number one prospect. Did you see his splits at Chattanooga? This is incredible. I loved those shows and I loved that you had a moment where you got to feel it in real time, but I just wonder if anybody's going to that anymore. If they're thinking I need to throw on a studio show. Like I still love the NBA Tread Deadline stuff because it's my every day, but I don't, I don't know if I would go to it with the same anticipation.

And look, it's funny. Gammon's could make up shit 25 years ago and I was entertained. I was all in. I'm like, you know, we've already talked about my attraction to diamond notes in the past, but I just wonder if it moves too fast now where the value of the Woj stuff and the Shom stuff was making sure you had their Twitter feed. Like I wonder if Elon, although Elon's been busy, should he actually suspend insider's accounts that are only reporting breaking news a minute after somebody else has? Cause I've noticed a lot of that.

Is it worth it just to stay in the game to be like, I didn't break this. Fuck it. Sources confirm. You know, and then like, is that replaced the immediacy, the need, you know, it would be great. It'd be great if there were three or four people out there that I felt like I trusted to put the work in, maybe a Zach Lowe, obviously a wind horse with all of his sources.

It was somebody that's good at both the information and being good in a studio and stuff. Like I still love that stuff. And I would watch that stuff if I'm not taping with you during the trade deadline, but I always have to ask myself, like, are you one of the only people that still want something like that? Your joy for an NHL Trading Deadline Studio show, are you the assholes?

Right, right. There were trades, and it was like a five person trade, and I didn't know who any of the five people were. And I'm like, oh, surprise they did that. Like, I had to have opinions on that stuff. I think that's still the magic of TV, is when you can just go live with they did that. Like, you had to have opinions on that stuff. I think that's still the magic of TV is when you can just go live with stuff like that. I mean, I'm the same way.

Will we miss it though? Will we? Because I've thought about that with podcasting and radio. Like, I did some interview where I didn't, I thought, well, you know, look, the Luca trade's a perfect example. Luca trade happens, Bill and I are with Mahoney 10 minutes later.

So we're replacing the live part of it. But I do wonder if there's, and I think I'm wrong. I think I'm wrong to wonder if there's ever a moment moving forward. And people go, you know what I kind of miss is just knowing the show was live and they were reacting in the moment. Cause I think it's all replaced. Curtis will like this story. The, the, so I'm a kid.

I'm staying at my mom's house in Connecticut and I don't think it was the fan. It was even a New York sports station that wasn't a fan. And Dave Sims was hosting like a NBA draft show. And you remember being a kid in the eighties, there's just no information. You don't know any, you might be like sports illustratedrated might have like, here's how we think the top 13 in the draft's gonna be. You're like, oh my God, like there was just nothing.

You couldn't find anything about anything. And there was this radio show and they just did the draft for like three, four hours. And I, like you could have, a bulldozer could have driven through my house and I just would have like moved rooms cause I just wanted to hear the show so bad. And I do wonder like that, that sensation has to be gone these days, right? Curtis, there's no, there's no show like that anymore. No, I mean, I do, I do think the Luke is such an extreme example, but that night,

I mean, first of all, when I saw that you guys were taping, I was like, here we go, I'm ready. I'm excited about that. But then when I saw that theyn Horse had gotten on ESPN and they kind of bro-caught him onto the net, or onto the air and got him in a suit, like someone had just died. It was like, this is big. Brian's awake, Brian's in a suit, Brian's ready to go.

That was, as a viewer, I'm like, this is exciting. This makes me feel like, holy shit, something amazing has just happened. Do you think Wyn Horse'm like, this is exciting. You know, this makes me feel like, holy shit, something amazing has just happened. Do you think Winhorse is like, fuck man, I was gonna play golf tomorrow. Now I'm on a connecting flight to Hartford because they need me to get in there. But see, like that's,

I like that you brought up the Winhorse thing because at that point you're thinking, all right, who could actually be on TV that I would wanna hear from, okay, that I know is be on TV that I would want to hear from? Okay. That I know is going to have something that I don't know. Not that you or I are at the same level of reporters or whatever, but I think we're probably pretty good on it, right? If Luca gets traded, you and I are going to be able to explore the space. The beauty of a windhorst, which seems to be where all of this is moving away

from is that I know in those few minutes, he's going to kill it and he's gonna have something the rest of us don't have. And he also had that rant during the playoffs last year, which he also said after he did the rant, nobody actually came to him to be like, hey, you're taking, you would have thought somebody would have gone, hey, leave our guy alone, even if Wind Horse was right, not what you was.

And so Wind Horse had all of these awesome moments in that spot that I fear we're gonna lose forever. Yeah, that's that old school TV authority too, I think. Like I'm paying attention to you. Yeah. You know stuff and you also just have a kind of presence on the air. You know, which when, when horse comes, I think from being in print a little bit

and seeming like kind of a reluctant second go bear TB guy, the go bear move for him was like all time, like his approval rating would he, after that it was like, everybody's like, I love this guy. I got to say the, the Luca thing he did at when the Seltzer went up three Oh in the finals. Cause I actually watched that. Cause I was watching after Luca got traded, I'm just like consuming everything, trying to figure out what could have happened.

And it was like a pre-planned monologue in his head. He's doing it stand up on the court. He clearly had something to say. He also clearly had information from somebody in the Dallas side that colored why he was doing this. and he was really convicted about it. And he was like, this is a real problem for this team that this guy is handling big games and big moments like this. He hurt the team today.

He's got to fix this. And now when you look back at that, I haven't talked to him about it, but, you know, that was probably the genesis of when that trade happened, that finals, where we still think it's the dumbest NBA trade of our lifetimes, but that was probably where they were like, this fucking guy and, and it just, that was it. And they just start complaining about him and complaining about him behind the scenes and that's it, but yeah, people are, there's still good journalism out there. And I also feel like the bar of, um, people kind of policing it has been really good. I think people are getting away with a lot less chicanery and putting out false shit.

Nobody wants to be wrong. I think people are really careful about when they put something out and occasionally we get a fight at a Starbucks at the combine. We're from Howard Schultz's son. Yeah, did you lead the press box with that or was that just a deep dive investigation after the fact? That was almost my, you know, wind horse Luca trade moment.

I almost had to go live. Do I have a suit? Rossella, have you done the combine? Have I ever gone to it? You must have, right? You've done it, right? No, no, he never did it. Ever?

McShay was trying to get me to go and do it like kind of before I think he had done his own thing. I think last year he'd asked me, Hey, do you have any interest? But it just, it hits at a really bad time. Like it's just when the basketball cranks up, I mean, I'm pretty sick of football at that point. Yeah. And so I think from a networking standpoint, it's really great. If you have anything going on in the media, because everybody's just kind of around, you're going to make a lot of contacts and everything. But I don't know, man, I can get a little selfish about my schedule.

I haven't really talked to you about this, but McShay and I text a little bit now. Interesting. I'll just sometimes text him football stuff and then text a little bit now. Interesting. I'll just sometimes text him football stuff and then he'll text me back. That's pretty cool. I put Bill on a thread with my college roommate, which is incredible.

Yeah, I'm on a thread with Silla's roommate and conspiracy theorist extraordinaire, Timmy. And it's one of my favorite threads. Every time there's a text, I'm excited about it. It's great. Because the Boston guys, because he's not from Boston, but the Boston guys are like, Bill's on a thread with you and Walsh?

I went, yeah. Like how did that happen? I go, yeah, it's rarefied air with all this stuff. It started with a UFO conversation in Denver, and then we just kept going. Hey, welcome to a special part of the show which is brought to you today by Audi with their all new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron.

Wanted to do, this isn't like, we're not gonna do like a recap of Celtic City each episode but I wanna do like one little piece from each episode that I thought we could talk about in a modern context. So the first episode, a lot of it's about Bob Cousy, who I feel like has this fascinating big picture, whatever he means in the context of American sports in the 21st century. It's either underrated or overrated, but it's not what I think people think. He's the most popular player of the first 15 years of the league.

He was the first exciting player of the league ever had. And he actually should be discussed maybe a little more reverentially than he is. And instead the only time he's been discussed this decade was JJ when he did the plumbers, that whole plumbers thing that he did when he kind of disparaged the first 15 years of league and people got upset about that. But, um, Curtis, just as a sports historian, Bob Cousy, big picture. What are your, what are your like immediate thoughts? Um, I'm a guy who primarily is.

Venerated I don't know if properly or maybe venerated at all in Boston newspapers right now. I mean, I feel he is lost. I feel he's the guy that, you know, gets the globe column. Every once in a while, Bob Boozy is still alive, but he's still proud to be a cell tech. It gets a couple of things like, yeah, right. I mean, I'm just trying to think of where he lands in culture, pre-documentary. Not that many places. It's interesting to look at the anniversary teams

because they would do, they did like a 25th anniversary team for the NBA in like 1971 and Cousy was clearly on that. He's one of the 10 guys. And then you do the 40th anniversary, he's still there, and the 50th anniversary. But just as the years pass, you just start getting shoved out,

right? For the newer guys or the legends. Um, and the thing with him, that the, there's all these different time machine guys, that would be so much fun if you could just take them out and put them in a different era, like you could take, I don't know, Jason Tatum right now and put him in 1955 and people would be like, what's happening? Cousy would be fun in the reverse.

Like if he just came into the way Leakes played Howard, it's just like, he's just going nuts, throwing like these behind the back crazy passes. He's always trying to do fast breaks. How does this play out, Rossella? He'd probably struggle a little bit. I think if you just dropped him in a time machine. You think they'd play off him? Yeah, I think if you just dropped him in a machine, yeah, I think they'd play. They go under the screens 33% first career from the floor.

But yeah, I don't know if it's because of the Holy cross thing. Cause my family, obviously you went to Holy cross, but there was, there was a version of events where I was going to go there. My family on my father's side loves Holy cross. So there's just this absolute admiration for Koozie. Um, yeah, it's just, you know, there was, this wasn't a bad word spoken about Bob Koozie, my entire upbringing. Right.

And so then once you get internet access and you start digging through it, you're like, what the fuck is this? Um, but I, that's where I think this becomes a real mistake. His rookie year was 75 fucking years ago, okay? So like, the game was a little different. They ran up and down, they shot it immediately, and he was the best point guard of his generation for a really long time.

Like, if you wanna get into the Oscar Robertson stats thing and all that kind of stuff, and yes, the team was always better, and you know, there was just a different element of, of what sports were back then because they were able to keep the team together and red was just better than everybody else. I just, I think it's entirely unfair to look at his shooting splits and the fact that he dribbled with one hand and then dump all over the guy when his rookie

year was 1950, 51. I mean, can we, can we, is that okay? Well, have you ever, Kuzi's talked about this when you dribbled back then, you, you couldn't carry the ball. You couldn't carry it under. You had to literally dribble like that. Right. And you're playing in these shitty sneakers.

It's not, it's like night and day. It's like comparing automobiles from the 1950s to now. I think the passing, the highlights are still really fun. Like we had a bunch of them in the first episode, the behind the head, the way he would like bring guys in and you know, everybody was, everybody was in play when he was the point guard. I do miss, like I feel like that type of point guard is doesn't really exist anymore. Right. You're almost like a score slash distributor.

Now you're more like a Darius Garland type. There's not, Rondo is probably maybe the last kind of piece of whatever Cusi was way, way back then. The way Rondo played I think was, I don't know if we'll see it again. Will we see it again, Rossella? I just don't know that you can survive having somebody that you can just ignore.

You know, whether it's a big, I mean you can have a non-shooting center, but it puts you at a disadvantage. You could have a non-shooting point guard, but it just puts you at a disadvantage. So I think just looking for shooting at all five positions the entire time. Um, you know, Rondo at his best was, was terrific, but he still was thinking, you know, kind of went under the screen. Yeah.

Yeah. I also thought there was something with Rondo that took away, I don't know, I didn't want to turn this into a Rondo criticism, but when he would scream for the outlet every single time, I think there were times where it was like, he wanted to be in charge of the possession, he used to drive some of the other guys crazy.

He was like the guy who always wanted to drive on the cross-country trip. Yeah, that's fine. Go ahead, you can drive. I'll be back here studying. I don't know. I think the Cousy, I think't know, I think the Cousy, I think guys that get really nasty about Cousy,

I just wanna be like, can you pick something else to be upset about? Yeah. Curtis, in the 80s, it was Cousy and Heintzen with Mike Gorman. Cousy was the third guy, a bunch. Wow. And it was amazing. And it's still like up there for my favorite announcing teams of all time because Koozie and

Heintzen had this you know amazing relationship where they over I think they overlapped for one year at Holy Cross they played together for oh no they didn't overlap at Holy Cross but they both went to Holy Cross and then they played together with the Celtics I think for seven years. So they just, there was this real friendship with them. And they were also pretty critical of, you know, they had to combine like 15 rings. So they'd be critical of the players they were watching and it was just like hanging out.

It was like a podcast. It was amazing. Kuzi had that, there were just names he couldn't say because he had that crazy French accent. Like, Rajon Rondo just would have been unachievable for Cousy. There's no way he was even going near it. But, uh, I was thinking about that though, when, when I was, you know, look cause he was just such a legend in the area that we're from.

So maybe people aren't really understanding it, but when they used to be on the broadcast, they would kill players. Okay. Kill the players could would kill players. Okay. Kill players. Right. Could not care less. Right. And if there was an opposing guy that stunk and had a big, I remember there was this guy for the nets who like went for 30 or something against the Celtics

and, and Kuzi would just be like, I've never seen this, you know, he, I can't even do the accent. It's so, it's so tough. But he was just like, this guy's never done anything his whole life. Like, what is this? And it was kind of funny, like coming off of last week about the positive negative stuff of it, there is no broadcast. You could talk studio shows and.

You know, whatever we saw from first take at different times and the nastiness that he can get to and be like, how different is this from other times? The broadcasts, you are not going to hear anyone criticized in an NBA broadcast, especially a national broadcast. But even the home broadcast are just so positive about the home team, they don't really have that much time to even be negative. I mean, look, the fouls, it's all Homer's and we get it back then. They would just destroy, like it almost, you look forward to a Cousy game because it was going to be so unhinged and funny, especially when the team is bad.

Well, Curtis, you remember Bill Walton when he did the NBC in the mid 90s was considered so negative. I think they had to take him off. I think it actually like he, he was like too critical because it's another thing. Like Bill Walton was one of the best 30 players, 35 players of all time. So he would watch somebody suck and he would just call it out. And I think it got too negative even for a NBA coverage. You remember that? Yeah.

Well, he was killing the players on the court and he was killing Steve snapper Jones in the seat next to him at the same time. It's funny cause he's such a happy joyous guy. It just was a thing. Anyway, uh, the all new fully electric Audi Q six e-tron, a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, the all new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron, a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, the most advanced tech of any audio ever, experience technology

that puts you center stage or the panoramic digital stage. What's your car strategy when you have the kid in the car? Curtis, iPad, just nothing, look out the window, what do you do? Yeah, it's audio books. Audio books, oh smart. A little car sickness? Yeah, it's audio books. Audio books. Oh, smart. A little car sickness, you know, so audio book is kind of nice. Well, you got a panoramic digital stage in the Audi,

plus an optional screen for front seat passengers. Perfect for watching the latest sports documentary. The Q6 e-tron, not just the new EV, it's a new way to experience driving, learn more at AudiUSA.com. Always pay careful attention to the road. Do not drive while distracted. Before you go, Curtis. Can I sneak a bill?

Walt memory in here too. Please do it now. All right. So Steve snapper Jones is talking about Shaq's foul shooting. Pretty sure this is during the finals, maybe the conference finals. Shaq goes up to the line makes one and Walton just in the broadcast goes, I believe that's called face. And then I'm pretty sure if I'm remembering this right,

Shaq makes another free throw. He actually goes two for two and he goes, I believe that's also called face. Just right in the middle of the broadcast. Huge NBA game. He was just too weird ultimately. I think Pac-12 was probably the right landing spot. People misremembered that later.

They're like, he was amazing wearing an Uncle Sam suit. Like, yeah, that wasn't great during the NBA finals. Yeah, I think the Walton stuff though was just the theatrics of it that maybe didn't play as well on a weekend afternoon, where I just remember there would be like a turnover. It'd be like, that's gonna be the worst. That's terrible.

The worst pass of Poo Richardson's career. The way he ever recovered. Poo Richardson. He used to be like, I don't know, it's 67, 64. There's a lot of time left in this one. So ESPN premiered their three man lineup after the All-Star, or three broadcaster lineup, Doris, Richard Jefferson, and Breen.

NBC announced that they're signing Reggie Miller to be the person next year. And it's just weird to me. It seems like in the NBA for whatever reason, and maybe it's because they make too much money as players and they just, the studio gig is easier. You get to what we want, but it seems like the, the big names kind of gravitate to the studios and not the games. Will we ever have a great game broadcaster again, Curtis? How many have we had yet, nationally?

I mean, you and I always have this conversation. It's like, who's the John Madden of the NBA? And you can pick guys, you can pick a Hubie. You can pick Van Gundy had a good run. But it was just like, there wasn't that guy ever really. And it's funny if it were the NFL, somebody the other day was like, should they had Tom Brady, the Fox studio? It's like they're not Tom Brady in the studio.

It's like you're doing games. Need him for the thing you do. Got it. We need you to do the games. And I don't know if it's just the thankless job because you don't get as much time to talk as an NFL announcer or what, but yeah, it's funny. What do you think Rossello? Cause you love Van Gundy and I still, I went like, I'd probably was too down on

Van Gundy cause I didn't really think about what it was going to be like when we didn't have them and I really missed them in a game like last night. I just think Van Gundy was the best to have done it, um, on the NBA. And I thought there was a huge gap after him because even, you know, even when no matter what was happening, you know, people got like really annoyed with the Breen, Mark Jackson, Van Gundy thing, because people were like, oh, it's like a podcast or whatever. But sometimes within the game, it's okay to stay with a talking point. And you know, the real chemistry is knowing when Breen needs the room to do play by play to get you through the stuff that matters, but then

finding a way to circle back to the talking point. And then if you've got to blow out with that group, then, you know, again, it turned into, oh, they're doing a podcast again. Um, and maybe it was a little too negative on the NBA stuff, but at least I felt like it was authentic. And then Van Gundy would have a moment that he would pick up that nobody else would pick up. He would just pick up these little things that was happening within the game. It just meant that he knew every little detail of why is this guy, why is he coming in here, his sub here. Like Van Gundy

would give you a couple of those moments that I just don't know that anybody else has given you enough consistently. I really like Richard. I know it's tough because he's coming into an early established thing with Doris and Breen, but, um, I don't know. I think they'll be fine. I re I really do. I think it'd be fine. I know three persons. I don't think there's enough time in basketball for the three people. And even like the Breen, Van Gundy, Jackson, Jackson really laid out.

I mean, Jackson was, um, I don't know. It was Van Gundy's broadcast and then Jackson would chime in with stuff, but Jackson really laid out. I mean, Jackson was, I don't know, it was Van Gundy's broadcast and then Jackson would chime in with stuff, but the balance, the usage rate, Jackson was lower. I think it's a hard thing to navigate because those games, it goes by so fast. You have like a five, six minute stretch

that's just, it's going, going, going, going. I thought Steve Kerr was the best one that I'd heard. There was even a moment this year when I was thinking when it seemed like the worst season might be going sideways, like, oh shit, could we get Steve back for TV? Cause that would be incredible. You know, I think it's probably a coach who's recently, I think Doc could have been really good last year if he hadn't left after 40 games. I think it's probably a coach who has recently gone against everybody.

He's calling the games is probably the biggest advantage for this. And then the ability to actually be candid about what they're seeing. He's got to be done. Cause any coach that gets into broadcasting is getting in there to get his next coaching job. So it's gotta be like a Madden type where like, I'm out, this is it. I'm out and now I'm going gonna be letting it fly from now on. But the other problem is that,

I think Wade could have been really interesting if he had just been like, all I wanna do is be a TV color guy for games. But Wade's made $400 million or $380 million, whatever it was, like he owns a piece of Utah. So, you know, I don't know if the money is the same. Whereas the NFL could be like, no, Tom Brady, come do this.

Here's $35 million or Hey, Troy, Troy Aikman, keep doing this. Here's a lot of money. You know, the money is just different. I don't, I just don't think it matters as much in basketball and football. There's a weightiness you kind of need for a big game. You really want to be in good hands with the right announcers. You really want to have them walk you through stuff and teach you stuff.

I don't know if basketball needs that as much. Do you think it needs it, Rosilla? Like, do you feel like we needed, like, the greatest announcers ever for OKC Denver today? Because for the most part, you kind of know what's happening. The guys today are great, by the way. Passion, legs are terrific. Legs did a good job today. That was one of the reasons I thought about it.

Has a lot of moments in games where he is on it. Like he is seeing some of the stuff that I'm talking about. There was a game. I forget. I think it might've been a Phoenix game or something, but he basically had figured out like this coverage isn't working. He goes, look for them to bring two on this next one and try to meet him on the catch and he just meet him on the

catch and he just, he predicted the future. It was perfect. And the next possession of the thing that the team was running on the catch, uh, the other team brought to two defenders. And I just, I just think that's really important stuff. Like just give me a couple of those, you know, just a couple of game that. Tells me that, you know, because you played or because you coach or you've spent your life in the sport, there's going to be a couple moments that I may not be picking

up on all the stuff. Cause I think even TV sometimes at home, I can find myself like losing track of some of the stuff. We're like, Oh, I didn't realize that they, they haven't contested or this is the guy that they're ignoring is you're trying to keep track of all the stuff that's happening in the game. The big moment stuff. I think you're trying to keep track of all the stuff that's happening in the game. The big moment stuff, I think you're right. I think football needs it a little bit more, that overhead shot of a stadium, a hundred thousand people, people losing their minds.

I think that's why Musburger lasted as long as he did. I think Brent would be the first, he even admitted it in some of the interviews. He's like, I stick to last names. He almost wanted to find a way to be more efficient and limit the bad shots. But when it was Saturday night and it was a big college football matchup and you heard Musburger bring you in, it just sounded right. Even if he might screw up a third down. Cause I think there's some football guys that if I'm really paying attention, I'm like, is this guy screwing up all the time or whatever? But I don't know that we care.

I think, you know, part of it is, is it a voice that I feel familiar with? And it's hard to become that. Like you just have to keep getting all those opportunities. But I think that's a big reason why they went back to Musburger later in his life because it felt right when that camera shot opened up and the first, the first voice we heard was his. One thing I liked about being Gundy that I miss now, and I actually thought the game last night needed, maybe Jefferson could get there.

There was a, you know, there's the what's happening in the game. You have that whole piece. What are the storylines coming into the game? Then Gundy was really good at like the Celtics last night. Tatum just doesn't come out for the whole first quarter. They start the second quarter. Joe Mas leaves them out. It leaves plays in the first 18 minutes of the game.

And at some point during that, cause I was texting with, uh, with Celtic friends about it, we're like, Oh shit, we're treating this like a game seven. Like, this is really interesting that we're treating the game this way. Like we're going big minutes for the best guys in the team. Like, Hmm, this is an interesting subplot that's developing. And they just didn't talk about it on the broadcast. And I always thought Van Gundy, stuff like that didn't slide by him. And that's like kind of the last thing is like, when some sort of big thing is

developing out of a game, you got to see it immediately. And if you don't, then why are you there? Yeah, and to me, that's a play-by-play announcers thing too. Noticing that, that you're talking about. Going 18, that's a thing I think that a Breen, an Iron Eagle, a Toreco, when he starts doing it full time next year, will be all over. That's the thing they can, I mean basketball to me

is just such a play-by-play announcer sport. Like it's their game, much more than a football game is. And the really good ones will just be all over little things like that. They know. I remember when Jaylen and I did a game with Toreco, we did like a Celtic Laker game 2013 or 14 and Toreco just let us do our thing for like 42, 43 minutes. Then last five minutes was like, okay guys, I've got this. And it was just, then he just took over the last five.

And I was like, oh yeah, cause it's, ultimately it's a play by play sport. All right, I could talk about this stuff all day. Curtis, what do you care about this week for the pod? Anything? Oh my God, we got an NBA four pack coming up tomorrow. What does that mean? Well, we got Stephen A, of course. We got Draymond, Carl, we got a four-pack. Steven A. Of course.

Yeah. We got Draymond, Carl Anthony Towns, which we didn't even really get into. We got the Cuban interview. That one is like, just apologize. You got it wrong. But the best part was- If you're going to have a platform,

apologize when you fuck stuff up. That's it. But the best part was him getting the whole trademark name of the podcast in, in the non-apology. Right. Right. That made me so happy. So what's the fourth part of the podcast in, in the non-apology. Right. Right. That made me so happy.

So what's the fourth part of the four part? Wait, Stephen A. Dreymon, Barclay, Starry Day. That's four. Oh, that's four. Cuban. Oh, Cuban. Okay.

Rosilla, what do you care about this week? Did your dad text you that he could kind of understand why they traded Luca after watching him up and down the court? He did express concern that Luca did not seem healthy. Okay. That was his thing. My dad was always scared of the Lakers with Davis. That was a real thing for him.

He's always scared of teams with size in the playoffs when things slow down. So, there you go. Before we go, quick question, Masilla. So I was tweeting about, does the NFL salary cap matter when it goes up $30 million a year? No, it's unbelievable. Why do we do these like hundred best free agents coming up and all of them are just going to resign with their teams because you can just spend whatever you want.

Miles Garrett having a change of heart. Right. That was great. I love how dumb we all are. Like he couldn't just go, oh, I didn't know they were gonna pay me this. Yeah, let's go. Let's buy.

But instead they have to craft something, like as if he was sitting around being like, really love this place. Yeah, the more I'm thinking about it. Once you put that four in the, in the yearly salary instead of the three, I really started like Cleveland a lot more. This is bad for Parsons and the Cowboys. How it feels like it might be.

It's horrible. He was already licking his lips on Twitter today. I mean, he's like, Oh yeah, here we go. Cowboys waited too long again. Yeah. Cause with the cap, I get it. I understand it keeps going up and all you're doing is just pushing money to the next year and hoping that at some point, you don't have to pay the piper.

And then if you get in a Russell Wilson, Denver situation, that's when it goes bad, where it's like, you keep pushing the money and then it's like, Oh, this guy didn't work out. Now we are completely fucked for an entire season. But for the most part, it just seems like these teams can just, you know, Dallas is going to be able to afford Parsons. It just seems like all these teams can afford whoever they want. Well, because they can. I mean, the spikes every year, it's gone up like seven, eight. It went up 14% one year and 24, it went up 13% against the previous year. So the salary cap for 2025 is 279.

In 2015, it was 143. So the cap has almost doubled in 10 years. And so every time you're structuring these contracts, and by the way, there's another lesson in there too, is like, why are you waiting to do any extension with anybody like a Jamar Chase or like a Micah Parsons? Like get it over with. Do your quarterback early. So a lot of the times too, when you see the quarterback numbers come out and

you're like, that guy's getting paid that much and it's that guaranteed. You go, dude, year four of this deal, it's going to look like a steal based on percentages of the salary cap. So we talked about some of the NFL NBA part of it. I don't know that that's ever addressed enough. You can't really be in cap hell anymore in the NFL. Doesn't seem like it. Well, there's one way.

You can, but not really. There's one way. If you have the Deshaun Watson, Russell Wilson, like big money thing that goes completely wrong. And even then it seems like it's okay. But they have to be able just not to play at all, which was what those guys were both into. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if, if you were to look at these projections and

where the cap is ultimately going in the NFL, I don't think there's just more leeway on top of the other cap rule with the NFL that I don't know that anybody ever really talks about it, like carrying over some of that cap space, um, which we've always talked about with the NBA. Cause the NBA cap thing that I hate is that depending on when your rookies are due their extensions, you can have this cap room window and then you have to spend it on somebody that you probably don't want to. And then it ends up that everybody's spending way too much on a free agent signing the non like tier one guys, just because you're hoping somebody

takes your cap space because all that cap space thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other thing is that the other a lot of problems for teams. Yeah, the Pats needed a left tackle and still do. And there was this long list of free agent left tackles and now all of them are gone.

And then it's a complete panic on the Pats fans text threads, cause it's like our two choices now are to overpay somebody who's not good or to take a guy who might end up being a guard instead of a tackle with the fourth pick in the draft. And it's just like, I thought we were getting Ronnie Stanley. That was on everybody's list. Oh wait, he's going back to the Ravens. I don't get it. My favorite cap thing ever was that

whenever the hockey lost its mind and people were given like 20 year contracts as a cap, to remember that? Yeah. And it was like, this guy's gonna have a 20 year, 80 million dollar contract and it gets spread out. It's like, what's going on? All right, Brian Curtis, great to see you as always.

Rosillo, I will see you next Sunday. I'm sure we'll see you at a home Lakers game since you're the new Dian Cannon. Kovalchuk, 17 years, 102 million with the Devils. 17 years? Can you imagine if NBA GMs are allowed to do that? Oh my God. Oh my God. It would not be good.

All right. Good to see you. See you next week, Priscilla. See you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Sarudy and Gahal and Kyle. Don't forget you can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. I hope you watch this as a video podcast on Spotify. Don't forget about the rewatchables coming Monday night.

We did Best in Show, Threaten to Become Sports Movie Month, who knows? And then Prestige TV podcast where we're hitting White Lotus. We're also covering Severance on there too. I'm not on that pod, but I am on the White Lotus recap pods on Sunday nights and I have an absolute shitload of fun doing those with Mallory and Joana. I will see you on few years with him. On the wayside, on the brunette side, never on the side.

I don't have a few years with him. Must be 21 plus in President-elect states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president DC gambling problem call 100 gambler visit RG dash help.com call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland hope is here visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York.