The Bill Simmons Podcast - Shadeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons reacts to the NFL Draft before being joined by Steve Ceruti and Van Lathan (2:08). Then, Chris Ryan and Rob Mahoney hops on to talk Thunder-Grizzlies, Nuggets-Clippers, and other NBA playoffs matchups (48:55). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Chris Ryan, Rob Mahoney and Van Lathan Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Steve Ceruti #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! michelobultra.com/courtside ENJOY RESPONSIBLY ©️ 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA®️ LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast presented by Fandle. Fandle has made it easier than ever to see how your bets are doing without even opening the app. Now you can get the latest updates, follow along in real time directly from your phone's lock screen. Yeah, or Apple Watch. No login required. Just head to your My Bets page to turn it on. If you don't already have it, download the Fandle Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus

and president select states. Gamma problem call 1-800-GAMBA or visit rg-help.com. Coming up, NFL Draft, NBA Playoffs. Yeah, what a night, it's all next. Also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network. We put up a ton of NFL coverage podcasts. We did a live show with McShay. McShay's got the newsletter. We got the ringer.com.

We have our final draft guide with all the grades. Everything's happening in the Ringer NFL Draft show, McShay show, we're silos tomorrow. Uh, go check out all of it. I did some NFL draft here at the top. Uh, I gave my thoughts then just randomly. So Rudy and van joined and we talked about, uh, Sanders and darts. So we talked a lot of NFL draft at the top. And then Mahoney, Rob Mahoney and, uh and Chris Ryan came on to talk about all the basketball

that happened tonight too. It was an incredible, incredible sports night trying to follow everything. The games could have been better, but just in general, Thursday, the last Thursday in April, always a winner. We're gonna talk about all of it next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. ["The Way You Seem To Me Now"]

All right. So we just watched the NFL draft and three basketball playoff games all at the same time. It was really great. And I wrote down a bunch of notes for the NFL draft because anyone I wanted to have with me in this first segment is all doing another pod for the ringer. So you know what? I'm going to solo. I'm a pro. I can do it, but I did have some thoughts. First of all,

the Jaguars trading the second pick to pick Travis Hunter, which was somehow another devastating Patriots moment. I had already mourned the fact that we screwed up week 18. We screwed up our chance to have a top pick and to trade down and get all this stuff. And then the Browns had the second pick. They get number five, a second, a fourth at a 2026 for Hunter. And I just, I almost started drinking, but I knew I had a podcast. It's always disorienting when the Browns do something smart.

That was one of my first takeaways from this. Cause it just, usually the Browns lose a trade like this. I thought this was insane by the Jaguars. I know everyone thinks Travis Hunter is a one-on-one, all that stuff, but I just don't think you trade huge packages like this unless you're getting a quarterback. I think the Browns were thinking the same thing any of us would think if we were in this situation.

When in doubt, trade with the Khan family. I think they'd become like Vivek and the Kings in the NBA. I think the Khan and the Jaguars, I think that whole family is the same way. It's like, cool, they're gonna overpay for second pick. We can move down three spots, take Mason Graham, get a first round pick, get a second, get a fourth, sure. Let's do that.

One of the cool things though, ESPN covered this in the moment. Like, Kim Ward was getting picked. I think he was even going up to the podium and Schefter came right in and was like, we had a trade, blah, blah, blah. I think, uh, with the NBA, they, they always like kind of wait, you find out the trade happened on Twitter before anything happens. And then, um, I liked how it felt like it was part of the action.

They announced a trade when they did the pick. This isn't hard NBA. Just get this shit together. Um, I guess the positive for Jacksonville, if there is a positive for overpaying for Travis Hunter, when, uh, we've never seen anybody be able to post play both sides of the ball anymore, and I can't wait to watch cause this can be super fun. They're probably like a top seven or top eight. I'm at least intrigued to see what's going on

on the multi-view with them for the first four weeks of the season with Hunter and with Brian Thomas Jr. Who I loved watching last year. But the big thing I was thinking was those London games. Which they always suck when the Jaguars are involved. And now it's like Travis Hunter's in the London games for the next couple years. That's a bonus.

That's worth getting up at 6. 30 in the morning in the Pacific coast. You're like, all right, get to watch Travis Hunter. Maybe he'll play D back end receiver the whole game. Um, the big thing for me though, once again, they've overpaid, um, to get travel, Trevor Lawrence and toys. So they've spent money on Christian Kirk, Calvin Ridley, Evan Ingram, right? Big money on Christian Kirk. That was a much maligned signing back in the day. They drafted Michael Thomas with the first round pick. That was smart. They drafted Travis Etienne

25th in the first round. I think the same year they picked Lawrence. And then they paid Lawrence huge money. It just seems like they're constantly Lawrence. Um, and then they paid Lawrence huge money. It just seems like they're constantly trying to throw assets at him, hoping he's good. And the thing is he might not be good. So we'll see, but at least, uh, at least the London games will be fun. But I thought that was a good trade for the Browns. Uh, next thing. So should our Sanders, it, you know, this just kept going, um, for weeks and weeks.

I'm not throwing darts, because I certainly talked about it on my podcast a couple of times. It was weird to think that he wasn't gonna go in the first round in a league where it feels like a third of the teams always need a quarterback. When teams who were drafting in this first round needed a quarterback, the Giants passed on him twice.

They haven't had a quarterback since Eli retired. Mel Kuiper just felt, he just had, I'm going down with the ship energy. Most of the mock draft guys just didn't think Sanders should be a top 20 pick, including Todd McShay, the ringer draft guys that we have. And, and Kuiper was just, guess, like if Sanders turns out to be an awesome pro, this would be great for Kiper, but you know, I was going nuts the year Lamar fell because the Pats had a chance to get him. And, um, you know, and it just with Brady's advancing age, it just

seemed like a no brainer, but in that case, it seemed really crazy that Lamar was falling with how talented he was in college and how he was clearly something. Everybody has picked apart Sanders to the point that I don't even know what to think anymore. So maybe he ends up in Cleveland tomorrow by the time you hear this. And if that happens in Cleveland, we thought maybe we would take them at two and they get them at 33. They desperately need a quarterback. That's a really fun outcome. He got, this is great for, I was thinking, this is great for us.

This is just great content, right? I root for content sometimes. Sanders chip on his shoulder now. Everyone passed me. This becomes Aaron Rodgers 2.0 if he can ever be even half as good as Aaron Rodgers. We get to argue about the Giants trade back in and they take Jackson Dart, right? They pass on Sanders. That's gonna be fun to monitor. I feel like there's gonna be some incredible

sports media stuff that happens over the next two weeks. You can kind of read between the lines on what some of the angles will be. I think people will disgrace themselves. I can't wait. And it's going to be hilarious if Sanders actually ends up being much better than the Jackson Dart. But I don't, I think the thing, the legacy today was neither of those guys are even that good that people were able to get that wound up about it. But maybe, maybe tomorrow. But look, this, but maybe tomorrow. Look, I root for as many good movies as possible. I root for as many good TV shows as possible.

I root for as many good point guards as possible. And I root for as many good quarterbacks as possible because I like watching football for 11 hours a day on Sunday. And over and over again, we have too many shitty quarterbacks. And I hope Shador Sanders is good because we need more quarterbacks, but we'll see. Hopefully he goes to Cleveland or a team that needs him

and he gets to play. And we'll find out why he dropped to 33. Another angle, Kim Ward. Poor guy goes number one. Usually that's like, we're talking about him constantly. Oh my God, what do you think? How good can he be? What's the ceiling?

Can he turn Tennessee around right now? Nobody, there were no K-Mord conversations. I think I did multiple draft podcasts. I don't even remember talking about him. He goes number one, gets immediately overshadowed by this Travis Hunter trade. Then there's the Sanders is falling drama that just over overtakes everything.

And then the giants take Abdul Carter, but then they trade back for Jackson Darts. So once again, we're not talking about Ken Ward and plus he's on Tennessee. Um, a team that's not very good and a weird start to your career, but hey, good for you, Ken Ward. I have no idea if you're going to be good. It's either I was reading some stuff where people thought maybe he would have been the fifth or sixth quarterback last year. And instead he goes one this year. We'll see. Ah, my guy, will Campbell, who I talked to myself into officially today.

I did a YouTube short. Look, the past senior left tackle. This was the case I made in the YouTube short. If you, if they're picking eight, I would have been delighted to get them. And if you look at how the draft broke down, we had tackles taken four, Membo to the jets at seven, Banks went to the saints at nine. Nobody thought Banks was going to go in the top 10. Well, he did because everybody wants fucking left tackle.

And that was why Will Campbell had to be four. And the analogy I made was in 2016, the Celtics took Jalen Brown because Danny Ainge felt like the league was moving toward wings who could shoot and defend and guard multiple positions. Jalen Brown, if you remember, was supposed to be the seventh, thirteenth pick on every mock draft. They took them third. The crowd thought they were the trade in that pick for Paul

George in Boston or taking Chris Dunn, who was a local Providence guy. And there were some boos when they took Jalen Brown. And then he turned out to be Jalen Brown. My point is just because you got a guy who probably should have gone six, seven, eight with the fourth pick, what are they going to do? The there were two drafts. There were the first three guys, then there was everybody else. And if you look at the way the guys four through 12,

it became one of those beauties, the eye of the beholder drafts, right? Campbell goes to New England, Graham goes to Cleveland, Gentie goes to Vegas six, Membo goes to the jet seven, uh, Tep Mcmillan goes to Carolina at eight banks goes ninth and Loveland goes over Tyler Warren at 10. And it's just like, you could have done this draft two weeks ago and with that order might've been completely different. So I just think with, with Campbell, um, they need a left tackle. They have nobody who can block and the most important guy in the team plays

quarterback and if he could be the 12th best left tackle in the league, you got to do it. Now, a couple other Will Campbell things that have gotten me really excited. He talked about, I talked about this with Shregger the other day, Vrabel did put on the pads and he did go at Campbell to kind of feel what his body was. And I had been hearing about this for a week or so and Campbell, I guess knocked him over and Vrabel was really impressed by that but Vrabel I've got to confirm multiple ways now he loves putting the pads on hitting the

guys feeling their body mass feeling how sturdy they are so love Will Campbell grew up in Monroe Louisiana home of Bill Russell not not nothing. He cried for 25 seconds on stage today after he got drafted. Um, I got a little choked up. He said, I'm going to fight and die to protect them with everything. I got when was asked about how are you going to protect Drake may, I repeat, I'm going to fight and die to protect them with everything I got. Um, I'm all in on this guy. There's there's been a lot of jokes in the Boston area.

It's been a pretty polarizing pick. Um, there was a tweet, I forget who did it. It was one of the, I think WBA guys that it was showed a picture of him crying. And it was like, well, Campbell's arms are too short to wipe away the tears. We're going to get a lot of that. Will Campbell, I think it's an inch difference. It doesn't faze me. Um, I think we get in trouble with drafts when people don't fit the boxes

we have for the types of bodies. And the reason I mentioned this, um, with a basketball analogy is because we watched Jalen Brunson on the next tonight as well, Campbell's getting drafted, who has now become one of the, I think 10 best players in the league, 10 or 12 best players. He fell to the second round in the NBA draft because he was too short. Wasn't fast enough. Like I, I, you know, I'm, I'm in my fifties now.

We've been doing this with drafts my whole life. What the centers and institutions, Draymond green falls to 37 in the draft. Cause what is he? Is the center? Can he shoot? These guys don't fit in boxes. And if Will Campbell has been awesome his whole career and the one catch on him is his arms

might be an inch too short. Like guess what? We need a left tackle. Hopefully his arms start too short. So I'm in on this pick. I'm going to defend it. I signed off on it. I think they did the right thing. I asked, I think nobody wanted to trade up. So, um, that was it.

So Loveland went over tie warrants to the bears at Ted because, uh, Ben Johnson, he always needs a tight end. Meanwhile, anyone who spent $30 on Samuel Porter and their draft last year, wanted to, wanted to punch themselves in the face. So we'll see how Loveland does. Um, I don't know. Is that, are the Bears falling victim to, we have Caleb Williams, let's just keep drafting offensive weapons and not building a right team around him. We'll see, they spent a lot of money in the offensive line.

I didn't love that pick. But the picks that I did love, and granted I parachuted into this, but I did really get into the draft this year because of the path situation. I really thought they were going to trade back. So I was kind of looking at 20 guys and doing the deep dives on them. So the picks that I did like Jaylen Walker fell to Atlanta at 15 and he was one of the

ones that seemed like he was a fast riser down the stretch. And he was even getting rumored for a second at four and Peter Schrager was doing his whole to a man. People will tell you that this guy just wows the room. He's one of those like great character wows the room guy felt a 15 to a team that never seems to have a pass rush. So I really liked that pick for them. And it just felt like that guy could value.

I loved Hampton to the chargers at 22, who everyone thought was the second best running back in this draft. And maybe some people felt like the distance between him and Gentie wasn't really even that significant. Um, this guy just seems like a kickass. Bang, bang the line, keep, keep the chains moving guy. Um, and they needed somebody like this. And I just thought at 22, that's where you want to take a running back. And then Matthew golden went 23 to the Packers.

I'm just going to say this. I I'm going to make a prediction. I think he's going to be better than Macmillan. Uh, and I'll get to Macmillan in a second. Um, and then I like that, uh, I like that Houston was able to trade 25 for 34, 99 and a third round pick because the giants got excited about Jackson Dart, who might be a career back up. But I thought that was smart that they were loading up on picks cause they

need stuff. My favorite dumb trade was, uh, Atlanta traded number 46, number two 42 and a 2,026 first round pick to the Rams for number 26. And, uh, I just, I love having the Falcons with this current administration and the draft. It's like in my, in my vote out draft with Sal and those guys, we have our crazy friend Brad's in there and you just never know where you're getting every year with Brad.

This year he took like nine or 10 running backs and it was just like, of course he did Brad's in there. And you just never know where you're getting every year with Brad. This year he took like nine or 10 running backs and it was just like, of course he did, he's Brad. That's basically become the Falcons. Nobody moves up 20 spots from 46 to 26 and gives a first round pick in a draft where, by the time we got to the mid-20s, I don't think anyone was doing backflips. I thought that was hilarious.

I thought it was a very fun draft for glass half empty stereotypes. Will Campbell has short arms. Gentie runs with his pads too high apparently. Heard that one a couple times. Membo, you can see this in the ringer draft guide, was called a leaner and a lunger, which I think are bad traits for a tackle apparently, but my number one,

and this is why I didn't like the Tep MacBillan pick was, uh, and I thought that was the worst pick. I thought him going to the Panthers at eight was the worst pick in the draft. We'll see if I'm right or wrong, but, uh, Tep MacBillan can't get enough separation was the thing that people were hanging on. There was also the, he loves volleyball more than football. I'm not gonna acknowledge that. They can't get enough separation.

I think it's a real thing because the Patriots over and over again have drafted receivers or signed receivers like Devante Parker, who the guys are never open because they can't get any separation. And then the quarterback has to make like perfect throws just to get in the ball. You see these highlights of these guys in college

making one-handed catches, jumping over five, nine defensive backs. And I just, I want guys who are wide open. If I'm drafting a receiver, I want somebody like Golden where you see the clips and he's just like wide open in all the clips. I want guys like that. I don't care about the guys

who can make the catches in traffic. It seems like those guys are more likely to bust than anything. So that I would say out of all the half glass, half empty stereotypes, that's the one I might, I might believe in most mainly because I've been burned by 20 plus years of terrible Patriots picks. Uh, another big takeaway from this draft, which I think people say any every year, but I was really thinking about it this year. Why do people go to the NFL draft? I feel like I get 99.9% of the sports fan experience,

which is a reason that I think I've had some success over the years. Um, this I don't get. And I was thinking like during the years, um, this I don't get. And I was thinking like during the darkest, most interesting, most bored stretches of my entire life, which is probably my mid twenties, um, when I was broke and barely employed or unemployed sometimes or semi employed and then employed again. Uh, my mom was paying my mobile gas card. I was charging soda food on it.

Um, hoping she wouldn't notice even then my darkest moments, I never would have wanted to go to the NFL draft. I wouldn't have wanted to go if it was in Boston, much less driving to Foxboro to go. I just don't get it. And I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I just don't personally understand it. I don't get it. And maybe if Van pops on here in a second,

I'll ask him. But everybody seems like they have a great time. But this year specifically, to go to Green Bay, which is a really hard place to go to, to find a hotel. It's hard. The airport situation is a disaster. I just, I don't get it.

I also didn't get why Roger Goodell came out on a bike. And I don't get in general why he tries so hard to pretend he's like this great, awesome guy when we all know he's, you know, he's a business assassin. That's the reason he's stayed the commissioner of the song. But you're not gonna fool us riding a bike and bear hugging teammates or draft picks. One other note, the Giants tripled down on their defensive line and it's fun.

I have a lot of Giants fans in my life to make fun of them about this because they immediately default to the first Super Bowl win over the Pats. We'll worked out for us in 2007. Um, it's not going to work out this time because the rest of your team really sucks and your quarterbacks are Jackson Dart and Tommy DeVito and Russell Wilson and Jameis Winston. And I wish you all a lot of luck and I still hate you for 2007 and 2011. So I just wanted to get that in.

But this is the Mike Lombardi theory with if you have a strength, double down on the strength. This is one of my favorite Lombardi theories that we'll see, this giant thing will be a good example. Can we be really awesome at one part of football and can we be so awesome at it that we'll actually transfer to the rest of football? Those are all my notes.

The only thing about people going on the draft, I did enjoy when the Packer fans booed the Bears, Steve McMichael came on, they had the memorial, the moment of silence or whatever happened there and the crowd got respectful for a second and then went back to bustin' the Bears again. That whole Packer's Bear thing is really funny

and I enjoy that. I still don't know why you would stand there as people got picked. I just don't get it. I'm not trying to sound superior to people. I just don't personally understand it. So if anyone can explain it to me, I'd love to, uh, I'd love to know more. Uh, all right.

So Rudy, you have, do you have a take on this? I have no idea why people are there. I don't, I don't get it at all. I don't get it. What do they do between the picks? Yeah. Cause they, they, you know, it's like, I guess the whole point would be like, can you get on TV to be the one giant span, like holding up your Jersey and just yelling Jackson

Dart. I don't know. I don't know. I don't get it. And like, you know, maybe we're just really out of touch and like losers. I don't, I don't know. Like, I mean, I'm trying not to be like the anti-fun guy, but I don't get how I was. I literally asked my wife, I was like, would you rather be in Times Square for new year's Eve or at the NFL draft? And she was like, I honestly don't know. New year's Eve is a good example. Cause I don't get that either, but I, at least I get it a little bit. Cause it's something to do on new years.

It's like, what'd you do? New years, we went to Times Square. We had to do it. Yeah. It seems awful. Yep. But NFL draft seems, can you drink at this? Like, do they sell food?

They must, right? And I mean, you're so far away from the stage. Like they were doing the aerial shots and you're not even close to the stage. I mean, the people close to the stage, I don't even think, you know, like I would say 95% of the audience was not even remotely near the stage area. You're just like in this parking lot behind it. I don't know. It looks like you're like at a concert at Wembley stadium. Correct.

And you're way in the back, like watching, you know, whoever. Yeah. Uh, do you feel the same way about the NBA draft? No, cause it's a little more confined. This just seems like this massive sporting event that I just don't get it. Do you agree with me on this? Party get hammered and you know, maybe that I just don't get it. Do you agree with me on Mcmillan? Party get hammered and, you know, maybe that's just the cell, which, you know, that's a road trip and you just get there and everybody's kind of, you're

running Airbnb for a weekend and you just kind of do your thing. Maybe that's a, maybe that's fun. Yeah. That's the thing is I don't, I'm not saying I I'm leaving the door open that I'm completely wrong and I'm just not seeing it correctly, but I don't see it in any way. Uh, do you think Sanders should have fallen in the second round? I feel like I like him more than the consensus does. Like all these GMs and anonymous, I love the anonymous thing too. It was like there was people trying to out anonymous

everyone else with anonymous quotes. Uh, I don't know. I mean, I, I obviously wasn't in any of the meetings with the guy, but I kind of respected him. Like he seems like he's got a decent head on his shoulders, given who he is, who his dad is. And he got his ass kicked at Colorado almost every single week and really never complained and was just a baller. So I don't know. I'm not a talent evaluator, but I respect his game, but clearly there's just, I

think, you know, it was weird on the broadcast cause they, they just kind of refused to ever say like, Hey, maybe he's just not that talented. And that's why he's not, they kept, you know, Kuyper kept bringing it up. They kept talking about how, you know, about his dad showing him. And it was kind of awkward. And maybe it's just, Hey, he's not that good of an arm strength guy. And you know, why are we taking that guy in the first round? Maybe it's as simple as that.

I heard a rumor and it's true. FanDuel loves the NBA playoffs. They love when you get in on the action with them right now. All customers can get a no sweat, same game parlay every single weekend. When you bet the NBA playoffs, that's right. Use your token on three plus leg, same game parlay or same game parlay plus any NBA playoff game. Get bonus bets back. If you don't win,

like you could get excited about a Minnesota Lakers say game three, game four. I think ants going off in this game. I'm betting the over on points. Somebody made the over on threes. I'm betting Minnesota to win. Throw it in there. Knock yourself out. Um, I love betting on Fandl. Great promotions every day. safe and secure app, instant payments, no better place to bet all the playoff action that America's number one sportsbook visit Fandl.com slash BS, getting no sweat, same game parlay every weekend at the NBA playoffs.

Once again, that is Fandl.com slash BS. Fandl official sports betting partner of the NBA. It must be 21 plus in president select states or 18 plus in president DC often required minimum three leg parlay required refund issue does not withdrawal bonus bets that expire seven days after a seat max refund $5 unless otherwise specified restrictions apply including token expiration. See terms at sportsbook.fandl.com. Gam problem called win and your gamble orbook.fandl.com. Gam problem call, when Andrew Gamble,

or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Mikulob Ultra. Spring is here. My favorite time of the year. That means the NBA playoffs are here too. What am I the most excited about? I'm excited to see if the Celtics can defend their title. I'm excited to see if Steph Curry and Jokic

can keep going and going and going round after round. I'm excited for the potential of an LA versus LA playoff series. It's never happened. Clippers Lakers, never in my lifetime. Is OKC for real? Is Cleveland for real? Is SGA going to prove that he is the best scoring guard in the postseason? Basically since Michael Jordan, since Colby Bryant is he on that level?

We're all going to find out. There's plenty to look forward to on and off the court. Like Mikhailov-Voltryuk courtside. That's another thing. It's getting fans closer to the game with unique prizes. Plus they're giving you a chance to win tickets to the NBA finals. You heard me the NBA finals, which I hope are in Boston. Just head to mikhailov-voltryuk.com slash NBA finals.

Mikhailov-Voltryuk courtside finals, sweepstakes, no purchase necessary. Open to us residents, excluding Maryland residents. 21 and up begins 9 a.m. ET on February 16th, 2025 ends on May 5th, 2025. See official rules at mikulovulcher.com slash rules for price and details message and data rate may apply void. We're prohibited. All right. We brought van Lathan in. He was available. It's even though it's late at night. I knew you're a night owl like us. Um, we're talking about why Sanders fell to the second round and I had to give you

the floor. Cause I know you watched him not just at Colorado, but even before that. Were you surprised that he fell in the second round in a league where half the teams seem like they're not happy with who their quarterback is? I was as surprised with his fall as I was with Anthony Richardson's rise when he was going through the process.

Because I had watched so much of him. I watched so much of him, and I had seen him like never really play competent quarterback at Florida outside of some moments and a couple of games. With Shadour, it's completely the opposite. I expected that the measurables wouldn't be crazy because when you watch him, you think sometimes is he a noodle arm? He obviously isn't hyper twitchy as far as

His movement when he decides to run. However Just watching him as a football player as a football player He won games and he changed programs when he got to uh, you know the destinations That that he ended up in college football. Now, a lot of people might say, hey, his record at Colorado was mediocre, and it was. But if you look at what Colorado was before he got there, a lot of that offense is on his shoulders, and he always made plays.

And he seemed like the kind of guy that you would want at quarterback in terms of the toughness, the ability to make throws and big moments, the ability to make big game winning drives. He's getting his ass kicked. Uh, but when it was time to, to, to, to measure out and I get, get in front of people, I guess they didn't like what they saw. Yeah. The two things that don't make sense to me, big games on the road with crowds, right?

Making plays, making, making clutch plays every once in a while, like, which he definitely did. Like he seemed like he had a knack for the moment. And then you mentioned the key thing, how freaking tough he was, which I think when you're at the next level, you're just going to either going to stand in the pocket and take hits or you're not. We've seen so many quarterbacks who seem like they're afraid to get hit. I think when you're at the next level, you're just gonna, either you're gonna stand in the pocket and take hits or you're not. We've seen so many quarterbacks who seem like they're afraid to get hit.

I'm not saying he should have gone 10th or 12th, but it's hard for me to believe once we get in the twenties with how hard it is to find a quarterback that he wouldn't have gone in twenties, which makes me think they thought he was like Andy Dalton basically, like a poor man's Andy Dalton. Well, Van you you watched Jackson Dart. Yeah. And especially the Florida game was not a pretty watch.

Right. But, you know, he's got the arm strength and I guess more of the ideal athleticism. He runs a little bit better than Chidor does. I don't know. Like, it's one of those things where, because you're right like he likes Colorado's defense was terrible Both years he was there and he carried them to you know ranked You know Colorado being a ranked team for most of the time. He's he's an impressive dude to me, but clearly, you know I if you don't have a good arm like that like the Anthony Richardson thing like dudes get tricked into that all the time

You know, right guys. He's six foot five, he's built like an Adonis, he runs well. The one throw he had last year off his back foot, you know, they'll show that highlight for years to come. It's like, all right, we'll bank on that guy. It's hard to bank on a guy who, all right, what's his main trait? Like he's tough and he's kind of accurate or he's pretty accurate, but he doesn't have a great arm. Like- Well, see, this is what I would say about that.

I understand what you're saying. Just I want to, you know, Richardson NFL now, he just was the example that popped in my head. But like I watched him like legitimately struggle to grasp his offense and to be consistently productive in it. And all year long, there were narratives about whether or not the guy was hurt or what was the reason that he couldn't play. I can't really say that about Jackson Dart. What I can say about Jackson Dart is that there are times in big moments and big games

where Jackson Dart wasn't there. And there were weird off games where it seemed like teams kind of had gamed out Kiffin's scheme a little bit. And they were able to shut down Jackson Dart and render him ineffective. But when you look at the team, Ole Miss's team from last year, they spent a lot of money. Trey Harris was hurt most of the year. That was a guy who probably would have been a first round pick at receiver. And then Juce Wells, the big transfer

that came in from South Carolina, he didn't work out. He had a disappointing season. So it wasn't like they had explosion all over the office. They had Ulysses Bentley, they had some other guys in the backfield that were running the ball pretty well. But the team was a little bit off kilter. Dart was shouldering a lot, a lot of the load for them

offensively because they weren't really getting separation from their wide receivers and a lot of stuff was going on there. Two things I'll say differently, though. He had a multi-multi-million dollar squad. There were dudes or supposed dudes everywhere. The reason why you would say that Shador Sanders, you have to call him clutch, is because Colorado was incapable of dominating anyone.

If they were gonna win a game, it was normally gonna be by six. It was gonna be by three. And Shador was going to have to make plays for them to win. He was 50 to 40. Yeah. Yeah. He was going to have to make plays for them to win. And I'm just surprised that no one saw when you talk about the intangibles, a lot of people are talking about, well, he's bad at interview. He's cocky.

He's this, he's that the intangibles that I saw was a guy who was able to rally his team and get them to really play for him. A guy who stood in there behind one of the worst offensive lines I've ever seen in college football history. Like one of the worst lines I've ever seen. And make plays and deliver throws. But there was a throw in that, not to filibuster or belabor it, there was a throw, I specifically remember, in the North Dakota State game where he gets drilled and the ball comes out and

I'm thinking that's a pick. I'm like, oh my God, that's a pick. No, he floated it to Horn. Horn ran under it and I think that he scored. So I just thought that somebody would say that's a guy that I could build an offense around, particularly one of these obviously dumb teams, but I guess it didn't, they didn't feel that way. Well, I talked about this earlier, but wouldn't it be amazing if he ended up in

Cleveland when we thought there was a chance he could have gone to Cleveland before people realized it was in top three, but now he could go to Cleveland, a team that has been in hell with their quarterbacks since Baker Mayfield left. And now he goes there, he'd have a wide open runway to be good right away. He'd have a better offensive line than he had a Colorado. But that's, I don't know the thing I was, man, where would you want to see him? Cause I was thinking during the draft and like, does he,

does he fit well in New York or Cleveland in a cold weather city where like he's got to drive the ball and what could be bad weather? Like he's, you know, the saints in a dome. Like that feels just way, way bad. I don't know what the exact fit is, but I didn't know if he's a saint. I mean, look at this point, you know, I take Lucifer at quarterback rather than Derek Carr. Like there are all kinds of people like OJ Simpson, quarterbackers, you know what I mean? Kanye West. But there are a lot of people that I would that they

could put in their quarterback right now that I take over Derek Carr pretty much like anybody. But look, there's no doubt that in the right situation, Shadour Sanders has what it takes to be successful. What I am not, I'm a guy who watches a lot of college football. Like I watched every snap that Dar took this year. I watched every snap that Sanders took this year, right? I just watch every game possible,

and especially the teams in the SEC. I have to watch them. What I can't do is get granular as far as the breakdown of what NFL guys see that makes them go, Oh, my God, this guy is undraftable. I can only tell you the tape that I saw, like when they were playing games, actual games on a football field and on a football field. It seems like Shadour Sanders is a football field. And on a football field, it seems like Shadour Sanders is a winning player.

Jackson Dart is a great big strong guy who's incredibly tough, incredibly tough. But I don't know, man, that offense is, it's designed to manufacture statistics. It's a simple offense because they go so fast. So there's just a lot of things that Jackson Darr might be asked to do on the next level that I don't think he was asked to do it all. Miss handsome guy.

Um, maybe that'll be his legacy. Handsome guy coming in and it seems like he's like Brad Pitt's coming in. Um, Cleveland has 33 and 36. The two teams between them are Houston who already have a quarterback in Tennessee who just drafted a quarterback. And if they passed on him twice when their quarterbacks are Kenny Pickett and Deshaun Watson who's out for the year and who everybody in Cleveland hates. That is just damning.

And then you go to the Raiders are sitting there at 37 and could they try to move up? Like, I can't imagine him getting by at 37. Then it's like, all right, what the fuck's going on? Van, when does this become one of the most reprehensible sports media, people yelling at each other's stories we've had in a while. What needs to happen? Jokic versus Embiid for the MVP was the last time I got really dark that bad. I got drawn to that. Yeah

Yeah I don't know the the cultural story of this one is Is pretty big as well. Like I saw Dion get at Dan O'Loskey on Twitter and Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Somebody said that Dan Orlovsky is, is a hater now because he gave a somewhat negative opinion about Shadour Sanders. And it wasn't really a negative opinion. He said, if Shadour Sanders doesn't go in the first round or if a couple things pass on him, this will be why these are the things that he needs to work on. And someone comes and says, I didn't know he was a hater. And Dion goes, oh my God, he's a hater.

The Dion part of this just cannot be overlooked. The fact that Dion is such a gigantic personality that maybe there are some people that have been rubbed the wrong way by the entire Colorado apparatus. And that is the thing that's gonna be gnawing at the talking heads for the next couple of days because, you know, quarterbacks fall all the time, but this one's gonna be seen as a gigantic injustice where it could be just a guy that the NFL scouts don't like or it could be more The injustice to me is that we don't have enough good quarterbacks

So you have to really think this guy doesn't have it if you're like we still don't know who the Steelers quarterback is So Rudy is it like Kirk Cousins now like what? is it Like like really they're going to do the Aaron Rogers roller coaster, kind of keep their fingers crossed for a guy who seemed like he was washed last year? But I would say the counterpoint would be every, every draft expert has basically told us that like Cam Ward in last year's draft is going what, like fifth or sixth

of all of the quarterbacks. So if you think Cam Ward is better than Shidora Sanders, which I think we all probably do, at least as a prospect, that means he's at least seventh, the seventh best quarterback in, you know, and how many times are seven quarterbacks going round one? So is he just being, was he just kind of being propped up because, hey, we need to latch onto somebody,

quarterbacks are sexy, usually two to three go in the first round, like maybe he's up there. When like, you know, I guess the statistics would tell you that this draft is just not a great quarterback draft. So I don't know. Like it seems, I don't know what to believe. Yeah. That's what happens with these clusters with the draft where you're the

best looking person in your cluster, but it's not a good cluster and you can fool people into thinking you're better than you are. I thought that was really interesting that people, I saw the same stuff that people thought like Bo Nicks would have gone ahead of Kim Ward if they were in the same draft. That's crazy. Jesus. Um, I guess, yeah, I get what you're saying, but I looked at that.

Certainly from a different perspective to where it's a weak quarterback draft, like a weak one, right? And he still fell out of the first round. Like we watched a draft where Michael Pinnix with a really questionable medical, like that guy's a stud quarterback, don't get me wrong. And he ran four or five when he was at the combine, so obviously his legs worked.

But we watched him get taken. We watched the JJ McCarthy thing still blows my mind. Right? And it's not, I'm not saying that the guy's not good. I'm saying that we're talking about someone that was in a hand the ball off, make a couple of plays of game offense, right? Game manager.

A game manager. He is about to be handed the keys to the kingdom up in Minnesota. All of that stuff together. I know that the team won a lot and that's got to mean something. But I'm saying now it just seems like it wasn't that Shadour Sanders didn't find the right fit in the first round. It seemed like he was radioactive, which it wasn't. wasn't it does seem like the interviews were a real thing right, so it was you were being anonymous because they didn't want people coming at them, but

It didn't seem like a fake story It did seem like something that turned some teams off but can I ask you a question? Let's say that it's not a fake story. The question is, why is it a story? Why would an anonymous source, you have a bad interview with Shadrur Sanders. Right, why are they saying anything? I'm just asking, yeah. By the way, I'm not casting any type of expression.

I'm saying, I'm asking why. You have a bad interview with Shadrur Sanders. Or you take it out because you want to get him the second round, and you're like, yeah, that guy's a fucking asshole. And meanwhile and you're like, yeah that guy's a fucking asshole and meanwhile I hope he falls to 33 but it Gets it got to a point to where? Every single fucking thing was so negative. Did you hear that?

we watched him tie his shoes and It took him fucking five seconds to do the loop-de-loop something's wrong with this guy. He's undraftable It was like the draft a movie. It was the birth Bo Cal him The whole thing so I'm just you know, I'm by the way, I'm not I'm just saying that this was pretty remarkable for from a guy There's that other tweet from Dion where Dion is saying hey, my son's gonna go top five three Like everyone was saying that he was going to be like a top five draft pick. So he was saying word for three months,

but that cooled off the last couple of days. It did. You know that it almost, last couple of weeks. Yeah. Yeah. But it, it, it almost feels like, did we just kind of like talk ourselves into something that was never actually going to be real, you know? And I know as a Patriots fan, hoping that two quarterbacks were going to top three, you could feel it shifting in fucking February that once the first wave of analysis came in on him, it wasn't, it was pretty bleak. So I don't get it. There's, there's one other thing that one other thing that I looked back at it

and I was like, these things didn't help, at least to me. So, Kim Ward and Shadour Sanders trained together. And so, all throughout the last couple of months, there were all of these training videos of them and they were throwing together. And, you know, Ward would step up and he would throw a couple reps. And then Shadour would step up

and he would throw a couple reps. And I remember watching both of those guys throw and being like, uh-oh. You know what I mean? He's like, don't get me wrong, Shadour throws a pretty football. I think he's a first round quarterback. I think he's gonna have a successful NFL career.

But the physical difference between the guys was, was, was, was pretty remarkable when you watch both of them throw. Dan, can we go rapid fire really quick? Will Campbell, number four Patriots. His arms are apparently an inch too short. I've talked myself into the pick, but you loved him. Can you make the Will Campbell face a case for my Patriot fan friends? All I can say is that the guy faced some of the best, most talented pass rushers in the entire country,

and he didn't hold up. He fucking dominated. He dominated. He didn't, he wasn't a, this is a guy who can hold up at tackle for you. This was a dominating pass blocker. And I'm sorry, man, actual game shit has to matter. He is a dog.

You guys got to go. Did it make you cry when he cried? No, I thought it was actually more interesting that when he was walking up to the podium to go talk to Goodell, that he completely ignored Brian Kelly. Like that, that freaked me out as an LSU fan. I'm wondering, do they fuck with this guy? Like he completely ignored Brian Kelly.

Brian Kelly actually went, gave one of these to him. He just, he didn't have any time for coach. Uh, what was your favorite pick of the first 15 rounds? Or values slash you think the guy's's gonna absolutely kick ass for the team. For value slash kick ass for the team. I mean the value picks are pretty obvious here. Notice how he's not saying Kelvin Banks to the Saints at nine. That didn't jump out of the tongue. I think the entire time was surprised that the entire state was surprised that that they that they took a tackle. This is not a value pick, but my favorite pick of the entire draft

was one that was scripted exactly where it was supposed to go. It was Ashen Gentie to the Raiders because of all of the excellent players that we've talked about all year long, he is such a fucking dominant football player. He's such a dominant football player and he's going to a team that has some pieces where he's going to really get a chance to produce. I think he's going to have like a flat out awesome rookie year. I'm excited to use him on Madden too.

Saruti, what was your favorite value slash I love this fit. I love everything about this pick. I love Hampton to the Chargers. What do you think his, because what do you, what do you think he's going to go in an auction draft? Like P2's are going to lose that. Cause all the Chargers want to do is run the ball. Yeah.

Like he's going to be a top guy. And you know, there's a lot of people that said, you know, Genties like, you know, physically just a freak and special, but that Hampton's not that far behind him. And I that's like a perfect cause cause all those charges running backs to were just like ticking time bombs, like, you know, with all Dobbins is, you know, just another injury way to happen, unfortunately. And Gus Edwards is like a thousand years old.

Really seems like it like it just seems like a plug and play guy. It's going to be like an all pro potentially like in a couple of seasons. Yeah, that was one of those. If you took them at 12, it's like, ah, it's high, but that's a nice pick. But when you get them at 22, you're like, ah, no brainer that I agree with you. That one, uh, the Falcons getting, um, getting Walker. And then, um, I really let golden to the Packers. They just over and over again, just keep getting these receivers.

The Pats haven't, haven't been able to draft one in 20 years and the Packers over and over again are just grabbing these dudes, but I thought that was a good one. The Eagles kind of did it again too with Jahad Campbell, right? Ben's like, yeah, like they just get another SEC stud who somehow falls. And there's the injury concern, but man, it was the, he had the injury, but it's a great pick. Yeah, like they just get another SEC stud who somehow falls and there's the injury concern, but man Yeah, yeah, it was the he had the injury but it's a great pick a Terrorizing player when he's healthy man Would you have taken Travis Hunter Abdul Carter if you had the second pick?

Travis Hunter, okay, would you have traded all that stuff Jacksonville traded to get him? Probably not but if if if you're there, I take him in, in front of Carter. Cause to me, like if you, what's the best case scenario for Carter that he turns into like a Michael Parsons type of player. He's not quite as good as Michael Parsons, right? Parsons, slightly poor man's Parsons, I think. Slightly poor man's Parsons, right Hunter though to me Has the opportunity particularly if he just decides on one side of the ball To me the defensive side of the balls where I think he needs to be he could be

Everything he could be the next Deon Sanders Darrell Revis type of player that like locks up a side of the field for a team for X amount of years. That was a very fun pick. All right. Thanks for staying up with us, Van. No problem. Thanks to Rudy. Always good to see your face as well. We're going to take a break. Come back with CR or Mahoney. All right. We're recording this 9.33 PM. No Wi-Fi in my house for some reason. So I'm using my iPhone. I think it looks fine. The dream team is here, Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, just watched OKC come back from at least 55 points.

Mahoney, was that the John Marant got injured game or the Alex Caruso, not quite the Alex Caruso game, but if it was a bigger game, it would be the Alex Caruso game game. Why not both? But I think the dark clouds of John Marant falling that hard in the fashion that he did and the way that the game just completely flipped on its head the moment that he left. It's hard not for that, for that not to be the top line takeaway. It's just such a bummer. Yeah. I mean, he's, he's always somebody you worried was going to get injured in every game because of the way he played, but that was not his fault. That was a pretty fluky, I didn't see our, was that dirty to you at all or not really?

I actually did do a little bit of research. I did some Zapruder on this. It does feel like Dort's slipping before he even realizes that Jaws there, but I'm sure other people have different opinions. Tough week for guys slipping and then undercutting famous stars in the playoffs. Do you want to get it off your chest early or do you want to save it for later?

Not great. Not great. I'll tell you what OKC did show me though. Okay. It's never good to lose by 30 when you're the favorites to win the title in a game three when it looked like the series was over after the first two games. And then Joggetts hurt, momentum shifts, but it was still like a 24 point game in the third quarter. You know, and then OKC did the thing that, you know, I really appreciate if you're going to have some championship pedigree, can you really crack down? Can you go on a run? Can you crack the defense up another level?

And then all of a sudden it started to feel like the first two games. So Rob weirdly, I think that game was like a win and something that maybe OKC needed for those last two rounds that they're gonna get to would be my takeaway, no? I mean, it's certainly a better context than winning by 50 plus, right? Like these are the kinds of runs you wanna have to make.

I think the Caruso point you laid up top is really important. This idea that he is a crucial part of their closing groups. And I think showed in this case, you got to play that dude off the floor because he will fuck you up and he will end your season. Like the number of just completely disruptive defensive plays he had down the stretch against bigs,

against wings, against guards. He just like his defensive range is so incredible. And the only thing you can really do is try to challenge him to hit some shots, try to, you know, spate, I think push him on the other end to the point that OKC has to make some hard calls. And they just never reach that point because Caruso was that good. And ultimately, I think because Chet and JDub were that good too. Yeah, it's pretty rare to go into a closing stretch of a game, especially with a comeback

that significant. It was like, I think they were down 29 at the most. Right. Yeah. And then to have the defensive possessions be the thing you're going to walk away remembering. I know it's not like it's it's not like Cory Brewer and Josh Smith like bombing away. It's like, no, Alex Cruz, so literally just like stop the Grizzlies from scoring like 10 times. And that swings the game. CR as as a scra, former little basketball player, did you, is there a kinship watching him take on Jaron Jackson? Is there anything more fun if we were just gonna rank things

that don't quite get enough credit? I thought you were gonna say as a guy with a receding hairline. Oh, I didn't even think of that. There are many end roads to this metaphor, it turns out. But it's one of those things that's so secretly fun about basketball that we all enjoy, but we don't talk about nearly enough, is when the much smaller guy is guarding the bigger guy

who's just being completely exposed. We're seeing it a little bit in the Golden State Houston series too, with Draymond and Fred Van Vliet, where they're just like, Fred Van Vliet's like 5'11", we're gonna put him on Draymond, what are you guys gonna do? And he can't do anything.

But for Jaren Jackson, who I did not vote for all NBA, and I think is a frustrating player to watch sometimes, but I did not think that was a good look for him, CR. Yeah, I thought he had that one nice shot that went high off the glass towards the end of the game. Every once in a while, as he pulls something out of his bag, his handle does not really, he doesn't have the handle of somebody that you can trust in the fourth quarter in a big game like that right now. I will say that for Memphis, it's

probably incredibly difficult to navigate the jaws here, jaws not here. Yeah. Because they feel like such a different roster when he goes out, it automatically makes, you know, your canards like that much more important, your contrar is important. Like, whereas those guys should be additive and not essential. So I just I really feel for Memphis, they're probably not, they're probably never going to win this series and they were probably going to get maybe not swept, but it was probably gonna be a gentleman sweep. And now it just seems like this might be a franchise altering night

for them. Yeah, I mean, that was like a best case shooting half for Memphis overall, they were hitting everything. It were hitting everything. It was just everything was clicking into place, starting with Scottie Pippen Jr. having such an amazing game for them to have to give it all back like this is so dispiriting. It's so crushing. And I think the Jaren Jackson piece of this is interesting to talk about because OKC is a horrible matchup for him.

Like I think his handle is good enough to beat Biggs. It's not good enough to beat the Alex Caruso's and certainly to drive into the teeth of a defense like Oklahoma City. It's just, that's where you really strain even the more developed part of his skill set from this year. So it seems like John might be seriously hurt. We have no idea as we're taping this, but he came back out in crutches.

Crutch is never good. Maybe it's a hip thing. Maybe they think it might be his, who knows? I don't wanna speculate, but. Honestly, when he took his jersey off coming off the court I He was he was not responding as if he was gonna be coming back out there You could see it. He was in a lot of pain You could say he was in a lot of anguish over that fall is it was a tough scene all around

I hated it man. It was just like it's the the the jaw experience and such a Sick nutshell where he was about to do something incredibly sick. Yep. And you're like, this is why I watch basketball. This is incredible. And then just the freaky fluky stuff. But I want I want like guys to try to do stuff like that. That's why you watch Hoops. The audacity to hurdle the door is what makes Jaja.

But it's also what leads to these plays, unfortunately. I missed it live. So I went back a couple of minutes because when I flipped over, I flipped over when I saw Verno tweet like, oh no, and I was like, this could only be one of three or four things. So I went back and when I established it wasn't a Cowboys draft pick situation, I was like, oh, let me find when the Ja injury must happen. And I went too far back and you can watch him and you can see like all the life in his eyes And he's just such the heartbeat of the franchise while he's out there and like the crowd is feeding off of him So it was really eerie to go back like even a minute before the injury and then it all changes

Yeah, when verno tweets, oh no, the most likely scenario is a jaw injury Like be given that the NFL draft tonight. It was probably like I have over two and a half quarterbacks in the first round. Oh no. I mean, there was all kinds of gambling possibilities too. This okay. See piece, you know, there's not a lot to learn from this series. It's a, I think pretty much of a mismatch. And if Memphis was going to win a game, it was going to be tonight.

But for the most part, this was either going to be four or five, but it did get interesting down there, five minutes left. Memphis is playing really hard. Pippen's doing some interesting stuff against SGA as like a smaller guy trying to like kind of dive down on his dribble. And, you know, they're throwing like some flash double teams at them. They're bouncing off of them and, um, just trying to watch them execute. off them and, um, just trying to watch them execute.

And the, the big guy was, was Holmgren where you really felt the stretch fiveness of him and he was not, uh, not shy about taking shots. He made one big one, but, uh, but I was watching that. Did you notice anything down the stretch there? Because that's going to happen to them. They're going to play the Clippers probably in, in round two, right? They're, they might play Golden state or the Lakers who knows in round three. And then the Celtics are waiting for them. And there's going to be these little pockets at the end of games, these real

crunch time moments when teams are going to be throwing everything they have at them, they try to knock them out of their offense and say, all right, Jaylen Williams, let's see it. Hey check, can you make that? Alex Cruz, are you afraid of the corner? How about you, Lou Dort? What did you notice from the last five minutes? I mean, I think just a lot of optimism

from the Chet piece of this game, just a monster second half overall, that is heartening as far as his piece in that, right? They're always gonna have the questions about this sort of secondary offense. They're also gonna have those questions, as you say, about what is the best optimal defense to throw at SGA in a playoff setting?

And I think Scottie Pippen Jr. does a good job against pretty much every star he's asked to guard, like real like Yeoman's work, considering like what he's asked to do. You could say the same of a Chris Dunn matchup. Derek Jones Jr. is one of the few defenders in the league who actually seemed to have an effect on SGA in the regular season during some of their matchups. And so the challenge of a team like the Clippers, as Denver is finding

out, is the sheer variety of shit that they can throw at you and the way that they can mix up their coverages and their assignments and keep you guessing at all times. And if something is gonna throw the Thunder off their game, and I'm not sure it will in a way that they're gonna lose a series, but it would have to be disruptive in that way. Yeah, it's really hard. I said this last Thursday, it's hard for me to imagine them not winning the title. I thought that this was like a real like cool gut check win, despite the fact that the headline will be Ja. The chat thing that I noticed down the stretch, Bill with the threes was just

like how he rendered Edie kind of unplayable. I mean, he was still out there, but like watching ED try to like get out to the perimeter, I was just like, just got to grab it. Yeah. It's the, it's the perfect. Okay. See box score. If you're saying what's the blueprint for what their championship crunching box score would look like right SGA 31 8 Holmgren 24 8 rebounds Williams 26 6 and 5 and then Caruso how many steals do they have for 10 6 with for with four steals but how many deflections yeah yeah and just and had a couple of those Kawhi Leonard,

I'm just gonna take the ball from you now, moments. Yeah. That was fun. Speaking of- He was MFing the crowd as a defender. I've not seen that recently. I remember the first year he started playing for the Lakers, and it became a big thing

cause his hair was so weird. He hadn't shaved his hair yet, and he just had one of those like super duper, almost like one of those sports writers at a Superbowl haircuts where you're like, what is going on with that guy's head? And it became a huge talking point on social media where they were like, look at this fucking guy, this white guy, the Lakers have, what's going on with this dude? And he had a couple, I remember LeBron broke some sort of record and Caruso was one of the first people that high fived them and it was like, wow, it's so

awkward, this Caruso guy. And then we all kind of realized watching them, Hey, this guy's pretty good. It's am I crazy or is Caruso like decent? And then it just kind of kept going. He's a decently big part of that 2020 title team and it's gone and gone. And now I find it hard to believe Rob that he's not a crunch time guy for them, right?

He's just gonna probably be out there in big games. Yeah, right? Yeah, it is gonna come down to whether you can push him and push them in that way where he has to be more of an offensive presence if If you can leverage it, but he's such a good playmaker in a facilitating capacity and he's such a smart cutter. I feel like he always has stuff he can do. And of course,

if you're creating enough havoc on defense to create fast breaks, you're going to win those trade-offs. The issue with Caruso is honestly, not even really been his offense historically. It's been like, can he be healthy enough to play a lot over the course of entire seasons? And with the way everything is shortened up now, it really doesn't matter. You can just put him out there for 25 to 30 minutes a night. If the matchup allows it and he's going to do you a lot of good. Well, we thought we were going to be leading this podcast with Clippers

nuggets. I talked about this on a pod earlier this week when I went, I had Zach on and we talked about Kawhi for awhile. And then at the end we were talking about this series and I felt deep in my gut that there was a chance the nuggets might really go sideways. Like I, I bet the Clippers tonight, I, I just, I don't know if the nuggets think they're good. I mean the nuggets,

I don't know if they believe in whatever they're doing. And you can kind of feel it. That game got away from them fast. The Clippers made a bunch of threes. I thought Jokic was spectacular in the first quarter. It felt like he was on pace for 30 assists. But defensively, they're just really limited. They're benched today.

At one point, I don't know what they finished with. At one point, I don't know what they finished with at one point. Russ was out right? Yeah. Yeah. Foot injury apparently going on. They finished with six points from the bench. You're not going to win a playoff game.

Not ideal. And they were down 20 points for basically two hours. And now weird schedule schedule, Quirk, this doesn't usually happen in the first round, but they're playing again 3 p.m. PT on Saturday. So it's 40 hours after this game ended. And that is a make or break. And they have five and a half playable guys right now.

Maybe. Peyton Watson's been kind of a disaster in some of his minutes so far. If Russ can't play, this is the thing about all Yeah. Hayden Watson's been like kind of a disaster in some of his minutes so far. If Russ can't play, like this is the thing about all of the hand wringing about the highs and lows of Russell Westbrook, like they just straight up need his minutes more than anything. Like they can't afford this much Julian Strother as they're going to have to throw out there if Russ can't go.

And overall, like the construction of the team to your point bill does not feel like one that would give you a lot of confidence if you're Nikola Jokic, if you're Jamal Murray, if you're Aaron Gordon with one functional calf. Like I don't know how you watch the team around you not close out to shooter after shooter after shooter and think, oh, we're just a couple of effort plays away or we're a couple of strategic tweaks away.

This feels like a chasm in the series that's developing. And I think in part, cause the Nuggets, they just look shook by the end of this game. They look like a team that fired their coach and GM a week before the season ended. Sure do. Oh, shit, I forgot they did that. And there's three guys on the team who have been the sort of core of this of this run. And it just feels like the end of a cycle. And these guys are looking around for reinforcements

and the only place they can look is to Westbrook who's bounced around the NBA for a couple of seasons now and the bridge to nowhere, like the young kids that they were supposed to develop just are obviously not ready or capable and Porter on any given night, you're like, are you on planet earth or not, man? So it's just-

It's just feels like- We've got one arm now too. It's just not a good recipe for him. After watching these three games, I'm surprised they won one. That's what I'll say. Wow. Chris, do you think they should have hired Vincent Hanna as their interim coach? Just to, I mean, Adelman is like doing his best, I guess.

I don't even know what you would do with a week's prep to become the head coach of a championship hopeful. But I think if we were wondering whether or not Cronkite was like, Josh Cronkite was like, oh, I think we actually have the pedigree to win the title. We just need different voices in the room versus I want to get this stuff at these guys out of here so we can get ready for the draft and the offseason now. I think it might be the latter. I mean even say it was saying my foot sir. It is like you fucking get hurt What can you do? Be there Today you just have me here to do heat

Just pull the string on his back. Well, I feel bad for poor Edelman I just think at this point they might have been better off just hiring actors to play the coach. Just bring somebody in. Bring in Ben Affleck and just tell him to be the way back guy. Wow. Yeah. Just to tell him to look like he had a few the night before and he's just going to yell at the refs and stuff. I have to ask the king of narratives, Chris Ryan. Oh yeah. If the nuggets lose badly again, Saturday, I think, and combined with OKC sweeping Memphis, the narratives are going to come shooting left and right, like a t-shirt gun.

One of which will be, you voted for Jokic for MVP and he just, uh, he just lost in five. Who's he? You shouldn't have won the one. Who is you? Well, me and Priscilo and probably about 20 other people, I think, voted for Jokic. Who's he? Who's you? Who's the you? We're trying to figure out who did this. Me and Rousselo and probably about 20 other people, I think, voted for Jokic. And me, to be fair. Yeah, and Rob Mahoney.

How do you guys feel about that? I feel fine. I feel like it's a regular season award and I will sleep soundly at night with that knowledge. I actually feel better about it because Denver has been so exposed in this series that it kind of cements why I voted for him in the first place. I couldn't believe how mediocre his team was. That's right. Bill never surrender. Yeah. Just forward. Now, so what else do we have for King of Narratives, CR for this one? Just how taxing title runs are.

I mean, even I think your beloved Celtics are experiencing this a little bit physically. Obviously that has something to do with the elbows and the dives going on in that series. But it's amazing to watch just even Jokic and how the tank is kind of like... I mean, it's not empty, but it is certainly half full and maybe has a little bit of accidental diesel in there at this point. And maybe he's looking around, he's saying, I don't have any help. But how do you rebuild this team if you're I mean, I'm asking you because I'm like, what are their moves here? What are their options?

Is there like is you have to take two steps back to take a step forward? I hate to like be writing their obituary already, but he's amazing. It's tough to do the down to one. What are they doing this off season? But it was hard not to think of that during the entire game. They squeaked out a game one win in overtime. They shouldn't have won game one. And didn't really look that in it tonight.

Game two was a little closer, but I just feel like the Clippers are attacking them from all over the court, like Rob said earlier. So the narrative here is like, man, like winning a title and being competitive over the course of a three year stretch will really take a lot about a franchise. Well, Rob, you're looking at a Michael Porter, my problem for your problem trade, right? That's probably where it starts. Do you have somebody you're not happy with? Because we have Michael Porter Jr. What about a swap-a-roo? I would say that would be the first thing they try to do.

Or to get two functional rotation players for Michael Porter Jr., right? Like Denver does need depth in such a bad way. They do need shooting. They need the stuff that at his best, MPJ is able to provide. Right now, he's clearly not at his best. Maybe he's not at his best consistently enough

for the salary slot he takes and the role you're asking him to fill on the team. But I don't know, their problems cut so much deeper. Like they're just not going to go on any long runs if this is how they're going to defend. And functionally, the core of the team is not going to get dramatically better in that regard unless you start making some pretty dramatic moves. And it's so hard, right? Because if you look back in in retrospect, it's like we've talked.

I think everybody's talked about this on their pods and stuff. But like KCP obviously would have think everybody's talked about this on their pods and stuff. But like KCP obviously would have been a valuable person for this team to have within the logic of the team's construction It would have worked But it's not like KCP set the world on fire as a member of the magic So it's like I can see why they were like we need to get off these guys We can't pay like guys a little bit out of their prime for past performance. I understand all that but Jesus when you're watching what they put out there. It's like it's unbelievable that they want a title a couple years ago guys a little bit out of their prime for past performance. I understand all that, but Jesus, when you're watching what they put out there,

it's like, it's unbelievable that they won a title a couple of years ago. It was incredible too, Billy. You're saying Jokic is passing in the first quarter. Really was awesome, like high level Jokic stuff. What you would expect from a player of his pedigree. You see, you watch them go on a run, you're seeing him set up these guys

with all these no look passes. You're like, okay, Denver's really got something. You look at the scoreboard. They are up four points. I just think the Clippers have done such an amazing job of just chipping away at all of these nuggets runs. It's a lot of those James Harden in particular, who played amazing basketball today. Kawhi Leonard wasn't even that good and it just did not matter as far as like the Clippers consistency of scoring went. So they've just been able to mitigate every little bit of something that the Nuggets have put together.

And it's, it's when you're in that position for Denver, it just takes all of the wind out of you. Yeah. When you have, you basically have five and a half, six guys and Russ is one of the six and he's not even playing. The flip side, the flip side with the Clippers is like, they can beat you with just their two best guys or they can beat you from the margins with Powell. Like if Pattoom's gonna hit four threes.

Oh my God, back breaking threes. I don't know what the magic Nick Pattoom three number is for a victory, but it looked a lot like tonight. Well, this is what I've been saying all year, and I don't, I get it. America's probably not focused on the Clippers home regular season games, but they have a legitimately good

home court advantage now. And you could feel it in that first half, when they hit a couple threes, the crowd was delirious. And you know, they got hot. When a team's gonna make that many threes at home, they're probably winning a playoff game. But man, when Kawhi is as good as he's been, and you know, he was 21 and 11, six assists today,

and Harden was probably their best player in the game, but Kawhi was still seemingly Kawhi and just seemed so athletic. He had that one play in the first half when he went coast to coast on a steal, did those two long Kawhi steps with Jokic next to him, and got it in there. I just think the Clippers are really good.

I'm just gonna keep saying it. I think people have to take them seriously as a contender. I think with the clubbers are really good. I'm just going to keep saying it. I think people will have to take them seriously as a contender. I think with the nuggets, you know, doc was on when doc was doing my pod, when doc did my pod after Denver one, he was talking about how much he loves Porter and how, uh, just how happy he was for that guy and how people don't realize how big he is and he can rebound. I remember raving about it. I remember filing it away.

Like, I wonder if Doc Everett runs a team. Would Porter be somebody he targets? And then you're thinking about Milwaukee in this other series. And that's another team that's going to be, we're stuck. What do we do? I feel like Rob, we're, we're at peak. We have an awesome player, but we're stuck. What do we do?

I think, I feel like we've hit the peak in recent NBA history. You look around these teams like we have Giannis and we have no chance. Yeah. Um, we have Jokic and there's no way we're winning three straight rounds with the team we have. I don't remember, um, teams with players this good, just really not being in the mix and I think it speaks to how deep the league is now. It's how deep the league is.

It's also some of these teams, especially in more of the mid and small markets, running scared of what the apron is gonna mean for them and preemptively trying to get ahead of some of these problems in the way that Chris was talking about. Like, that's a, it wouldn't have fully saved the nuggets. And there's some parallel versions of that for the Bucks, where like, if anything, maybe they've been a little

too aggressive in steering into the skid of their finances.'ve been a little too aggressive in steering into the skid of their finances. Maybe they've been too aggressive in steering into the skid certainly of the age curve, right? Of like leaning on someone like Dame Lillard to be Giannis' primary running mate. You couldn't have anticipated the blood clot, but you could have anticipated some of the gradual decline year over year that a small guard is going to have naturally.

And so then you end up with Giannis, unto to Kumbo, you end up with Nicola Jokic surrounded by teams that are like fine, you know, pretty good. And because they are so amazing. At some points trick you into thinking that they're probably a little bit better than they are. And that's a really dangerous place to be at a team to take it. Like it's hard to take an honest assessment of who your sixth and seventh and eighth guys are when every time they're shooting an open three from Janis or they're getting a backdoor cut from Jokic.

It's hard to take stock of your team in those circumstances. Yeah. And it seems like the theme of all of these teams seems to be losing out on their core role players or veterans that are looking for a new contract. They miss those guys, like whether it's the Warriors, the Bucks, whether it's Denver, and then they wind up regretting it because it's so impossible to like find that exact guy, the exact KCP, the exact name warrior role player. I mean, I guess Iggy Bunsy Pody retired. I mean, like it's the person that holds everything together and does all this little stuff. And I just, I don't even, I, as a, I, somebody who cheers for somebody who's not contending,

I can't even imagine how difficult it must be. Who's your team? I forgot. You weren't cheering for Toby tonight? I'm cheering for basketball. I'm cheering for the Pistons. Be ball Paul. Yeah.

Toby was 0 for 6 and then Nick Scanroday and Seahawks was like, burn in hell! He's having a good series. I hope he goes 0 for 20 in that next game today and CR was like, burn in hell! He's having a good series. I hope you go 0 for 20! He's been good. Speaking of him, Ben Simmons had a couple moments in the Clips game too. Ben Simmons plus nine. Broke out a headband, made a stop on somebody and did a little like stare to the crowd, kind of yell to the crowd stuff.

Continuing his streak of dribbling hard right to the logo and then skidding to a stop and hitting the ball off to a guard. I have a suggestion for you for the last act of your career. You've done a lot with your career, but I want you to lose all your hair, then grow out a crazy sports writer receding hairline and become the poet of the Intuit Dome and just write about Ben Simmons' connection to the wall, you know? This was the day Ben Simmons became a clipper. That would be, what if we started just assigning pieces like that and telling people to just sell the hell out of them? Like somebody goes in and writes like a really heartfelt Ben Simmons has

finally found a home here. Today he exploded for zero points and three rebounds, but his defensive stop in the first half really made it. Yeah, I mean, Derek Jones and Batum coming off the bench is a hundred times better than anything Denver has. They have seven guys, plus the Simmons thing. Yeah. I mean, you joke about the Simmons part. The Clippers winning his minutes so decisively is a damning a piece of evidence. Like that is really where you are if you're the Denver Nuggets.

You're straight up getting embarrassed by the Ben Simmons zone defense minutes. And Jokic is on the floor for a lot of those, right? And you're still trying to figure it out. You could see them trying to cut behind it, trying to like work some angles. None of it felt sustainable. None of it felt like they ever got into an actual rhythm.

Breaking down, I repeat, a Ben Simmons zone defense. That's the series right there. I do not see a path for them. I'm going to game four. I think the only way they win, well, two things. One, the Clippers could just have a game where they go like six for 45 from three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, anybody can just suck in a game and not make any threes. And if you don't make any threes, you could lose to anybody. The only other guy I can see is Murray. Like they need like a 38 point Murray game, but when you watch how the Clippers, all these guys, they can throw at him. It's just, I think it's a tall ass. They just have too many dudes. So I think, I thought Brissola and I said on Sunday that the nuggets were up one nothing and both of us were like, haven't changed my opinion at all.

I still feel exactly the same and I think it's going to be really hard for nuggets to win. Now I don't think they can win. Let's take a, let's take a break and talk about the ballast at the palace part two, Nick's Pistons Pistons, Nick's. I thought this was a potential Steve Kerr game, which is what, uh, he gave me this theory years ago and I was monitoring it. The young were so psyched to be in the playoffs again, playoff team hosting the game three and the energy's through the roof.

And everybody's like, oh my God, they're gonna go ape shit in this game, the crowd's gonna be amazing, and then they come out and they lay an egg. They did not lay an egg. The Knicks were really good. And I think that the thing that jumps out to me, CR. The shot distribution, which was a big topic

the last couple days because you have all these really good offensive players and you have Jalen Brunson in game two shooting 27 times and taking 12 free throws. I went on Terminator and Eddie's show yesterday and we were talking about like, Hey Brunson, you had 37. That's not necessarily a good thing for your team. If Towns looks like he wants to go listen to Morrissey after the game and, you know, OG and Noby has 10 points. Like maybe get maybe a little more distribution.

And it's basically the Isaiah Thomas mid eighties Pistons rule of, yeah, I could have scored 35, but I scored 23 and three other guys on my team had an awesome game. So the shot distribution this time, 20 Brunson, 18 Towns, 17 Ananobe, 13 Bridges. All four guys had 20 points and up, and that to me feels like the balance. So my question to you, CR, intentional or unintentional?

I think it was probably intentional. I don't think you can have a roster so overly committed to this starting five and this core and just be like, but it's still a one man show and you guys just stand in the corners. And also, I mean, like Brunson missing time over the course of the season. I think tellingly when he missed some time in this last bit of the regular season, that's when Bridges kind of blossomed a little bit. I mean, I know that Nick's fans have a love-hate relationship with him, but he needed to be a little bit more featured and a little bit more set up to be to be a feature player. I, I got to

admit, can we talk a little bit about the Brunson experience? Yeah, let's go. I'm so excited to do so. Don't dislike Jalen Brunson. Yeah. You are coming to this with trauma, I will say, given last year's playoffs. If I was a Pistons fan, I would hate Jalen Brunson. Yeah. And I want to like him. It's hard right now. I'm not enjoying this, or you guys enjoying this.

How much of this has to do with the Nick Sixers series last year almost torpedoing your friendship with fantasy. We're fine. We're good. Patched it up. 26%. Okay. Okay.

What's your take, Rob, on Jalen Brunson, the one of the league's most unlikely underdog stories ever, then be, now getting the backlash. I'm becoming a little radicalized, I gotta say. I have a quite high tolerance for James Harden-esque theatrics. I'm mostly fine with it. He makes Harden look like Bronco Nagurski. This is the thing, and I think, I think the juxtaposition

of him specifically against Asard Thompson in the series, who's just playing good, wholesome defense, but with a hyper athletic frame. And you're just seeing him get baited into sometimes dumb young player shit and sometimes inexplicable non-calls that Jalen Brunson gets the benefit of. I will say, I thought the first half in this game, he, Jalen Brunson was participating in every version of that possible and trying to sell every one of these calls.

I thought he cleaned it up a lot in the second half. And I thought that some of what we were talking about in terms of the shot distribution paid off too. Like he just looked really fresh and was such a huge part of them rebuffing all of these pistons runs in part, because he wasn't trying to sell these dumb fouls every single possession and hitting the floor every single time. At some point you can, you are allowed to just play basketball. And I like when Jalen Brunson just plays basketball.

I like when he draws some fouls too, But we need a little bit of shame, just a modicum of shame. The Pistons fans were trying to trying to show him some shame. They were chanting FJ Brunson or F.U Brunson. And it wasn't really... It obviously kind of fired him up a little bit. He closed really well. I think it's probably his size throws me off a lot because he goes in there like a bowling, like a pinball really. And he just starts flying around the lane. The head snap thing is like jarring, I think, is to watch visually. I think it's the stuff on the perimeter that bothers me the most. The diving in, like, you know, diving into guys when there's like, there he's being defended

outside the three point line and just shoulder dropping, going into them or, you know, flopping down after he's coming down from a shot. Cause he thinks somebody is in his landing zone. But, uh, yeah, I think that, go ahead. Well, I, I went to a Celtics Knicks game, like maybe January or February. I can't remember. And was talking about how I just, I hadn't realized that he'd become the best, you know, flopper extraordinaire in the entire league.

And, and a lot of the Knicks fans got mad about it. They're like, fuck you. How dare you? He's worse than James Harden. It's like, yeah, cause it's not just him like driving to the basket and flailing to get a call. It's all the stuff he's doing off the ball. It's when somebody sets him a pick and it's just a lot of him throwing his arms up in the air, but it's gamesmanship and it works because it gets the crowd fired up, especially in a playoff series. I thought the crowd was awesome. And there was this great moment, the first of many altercations in this game

when it got heated and you could hear the crowd, the decibels of the crowd, everyone was so excited there might be a fight. I was trying to think, is there an arena that is more ready to see a battle on the court than Detroit? Ironically, they had the biggest one of the century, but they were just like, let's fucking go, let's drop the gloves. They thought it was like a Red Brings game. We're not allowed to fight in basketball.

Wait, Townes got into it with, who's the piston he got into it with? I thought it was Paul Reed, wasn't it? It was Paul Reed. It was Paul. And then they panned to Isaiah Stewart on the bench. Oh yeah. And he's wearing like a full suit.

And he's just like, shit. Like I wish I was out there. Isaiah Stewart's like, I he's just like, shit. I gotta show it out there. I say it's like, I should have just worn my jersey because then I could have gone on the courties at least. The funniest part about this game to me was that there were more dads in the crowd than like a California youth soccer match. It was like Bridges was fighting with Tim Hardaway Sr.

Rick Brunson was fighting with Cade Cunningham and with Jalen Rose. Yeah. I was just like, this is an amazing testament to like, to like, what's going on with the amount of kids in the, in the NBA. You know? So if I'm the, uh, if I'm Detroit, I thought the Knicks were going to win this in four or five, if I'm Detroit, I feel like I'm in the vicinity of this series.

It's the opposite of the Denver game. Even if you look at the box score, they got a really good hard away game. They got a solid Cunningham game, typical for him, some turnovers. They had a really good Schroeder game. And I continue to wonder why Miami didn't want Schroeder. I'm just going to ask that in every podcast. Miami's like, we're good. Now they don't have Terry Roger, they don't really have a point card, but, um, Tobias was the one he'd five points, two for nine. He was the one that had bad one. They're in these games.

I think all of these games are going to be close. I don't see a blowout either way. Um, I like the matchup of the two, but it feels like Detroit's, what do you think, Rob, like two hairs below, three hairs below? They are close, but I came away from this game, which is a two-point game, feeling pretty confident about the Knicks margin for error, because everything you laid out is true. Those are all elements of the game. Some went well for Detroit, some didn't. They kind of all came out in the wash for them.

For the Knicks part of it, I thought the Knicks just really botched their pick and roll defense for a huge portion of this game. Just were not on the same page at all. They got nothing from their bench through the entirety of this game. They got outshot from three. They got out offensive rebounded

and they still win squeaking it out. But down the stretch, it really did feel like I trust Jalen Brunson to make these plays. I trust even like Carl D. Towns to make these plays who he had a tremendous game overall and to the idea of whether the shot distribution was intentional or not.

Cat coming out super aggro, you can usually tell really quickly kind of what's in his head. He kind of has it all out on his sleeve and his intention to make his presence felt on this game I think changed a lot of it early and that then opened up for Jalen Brunson to do a lot of the closing late.

Clutch player of the year, Jalen Brunson. See, I forgot. A real award that exists. I did not vote for him. You know, I voted for Jokic, because he's the best offense you put on the week, and that's the ball of the time. I did see, I did see, we discussed previously, Bill,

that you had Jason Tatum third on your ballot for clutch player of the year. Yeah, he's made a bunch of late game shots. You didn't like that pick? He's only 19. He's only 19. I'm not disputing it. I'm just saying I saw the full voting and there was exactly one third place vote for

Jason Tatum for clutch player of the year. So congratulations for working your way into voting history. The Boston fans are mad because I didn't vote for Prichard for six man of the year. So I don't, am I a homer? Am I an anti-homer? I don't know. I'm all over the map. Um, the, the, the shooter piece CR, when can this guy just find a home?

I love having them in playoff series. Is he just like, he's like automatic QB and Thanksgiving. He's just going to bounce around every playoff. He's like Woody Guthrie riding the rails. Yeah, he's just yeah, you know, he's just a vagabond of the NBA. I mean, I think that the problem for the Pistons is that they're relying on Trudor, Tim Hardaway, Jr. and Beasley. All of these we had an awesome season.

Those guys can't be your second options, third options, you know, like the kid needs one more guy. I think they're hoping or hoped it was Jaden Ivy. I love Jaden Ivy, even though like he hasn't quite realized his potential tough injury. I have to ask you guys, when you watch the- Durant? Oh, I thought you were going Durant right there. Oh no.

No, don't do that. Don't do that. Why not? No, come on, man. Why couldn't we go Durant? Why not? Yeah. I wanted to know whether or not when you watch the Knicks, Rob, does this look like a team that can go very far with the style of basketball?

And with this, like this just feels very much like we have now pushed this to the limit of what this team can do under Tibbs and with this roster construction. That's what it looks like. The Tibbs part is the key part. Is that the roster is the roster plus Tibbs, right? Yeah. Well, even what we were talking about, as far as Jalen Brunson overextending in the previous games, some of that is a Tibbs style of offense as well. Some of it is Jalen Brunson. Some of it is a guy like Kat, who can sort of ebb and flow in these games.

It doesn't always like claim his spot as far as his role in the offense goes. If he's not really, really focusing and thinking about it. I think Tibbs is such a weird coach because he cleans up so many things for you, but he also so clearly leaves all of this other low hanging fruit that some other coach could come in and do and make your team a little bit better in these particular ways. For example, I'm just like, I remain stunned by how little one five pick and roll the Knicks run.

Like Jaylen Brunson and Carl Thinney Towns are your best players. It almost doesn't matter who is guarding them. You can do that anytime you want. And certainly every second that Jaylen Duren is guarding Carl Towns, which was a lot of the second half after the, you know, the Pistons kind of switched that match up. Why are you not running pick and roll at Jaylen Duren every second he's on the court? Also, why aren't you doing it with Bridges and Towns? Like it doesn't just have to be Brunson. Bridges is good at that too.

Lots of options. I respect him a lot. I think he brings a lot to this team, but there is something to the idea of the formula maxing out at a certain point. CR, who is, when Towns does the thing where he intentionally starts some sort of altercation and then does the evil laughing thing, is that Garcia in Internal Affairs? What movie character is that for you?

Cobra Kai person? Who is that? What movie villain? It's just more like, it is the guy, it's like the guy in Trainspotting who throws the pint glass over his shoulder and doesn't see where it's going. He's not quite beg B, but he has like a little bit of like who started the fight. Yeah I do enjoy it. I don't know if he's ever actually been in an NBA fight But he's always like in the around it in the mix of some of these it's funny I thought do we get these trying to get eject like what was that?

But he was pissed. I mean like do you think I think I think the thing is that Brunson's? Whether or not you like watching it it clearly works because it drives other players nuts completely and you know like I don't really have like the Rulebook in front of me to judge whether or not that was a back or violation in the last second there But he was doing a lot of stuff to just get Dern, Dern was going nuts after, for a while there. Yeah, I've liked Dern in this series. Yeah, Townes, it was the full Townes experience.

I thought he had a really good game, but then of course he couldn't resist having the terrible foul at the worst possible time, with like two minutes left. He's just like, don't forget, I have to, it's almost like when my dog jumps in this little fountain thing we have every once in a while, he gets super excited and he jumps in and then he looks at us like, I had to guys, I'm sorry.

I just, it was sitting there, it was cold, I had to do it. Townes has to like, he just can't help it. He has to have the one foul in the last three minutes and he has to almost get it out of his system. I think the series goes six. Six? So you think Detroit gets one more here? Yeah.

Yeah. I think I'm going to lose. One of my bets was Nixon four or five and I think Detroit gets one more, right? They get a game where they shoot really well. Towns gets into foul trouble. We haven't had a foul trouble game. That's the other thing with these game fours The league can get a little

creative Some of this stuff Lakers wolves game three CR can have your animosity ranking to round one Certainly Luca and Rudy are are pretty high up there I was trying to I was asking a couple of people last day I was like, what is the Rudy original sin against Luka? And I guess he did punch him in the stomach or hit him in the stomach like a long time ago. But I always laugh, I was at the game, game one,

he's shit talking Rudy the entire game, like with like true hatred in his eyes. And nobody from the T- team will stand up for Rudy. It is one of those things where it's just like, you know what, man, go ahead. If you want to waste energy telling this guy to go fuck himself, that's fine. So I would definitely put Luca and Rudy up there pretty high.

Team wise. Oh, can we, can I have a couple other candidates? Oh yeah, please. I think Dame Halliburton has to be riding high. I was gonna say Pax Pacers just straight to say, bucks, pieces, just straight up. Oh, you're going straight up. Team versus team. I would go Dame Halliburton, but also team versus team. And then, you know it's bad when they just cut to James Johnson randomly when he's not even really playing. Like he's over there

He'll kill you Yeah bucks Pacers is way up there. I think seltz magic is starting to uh, like they've made our Horford badge Which is impossible. Yes. Hey CP versus Al Horford. Yeah, they made our Horford mad Yeah, which happens like three times a year. I was kind of shocked by that. I don't know. One of the most popular Knights of Celtics, probably the most popular Celtics teammate of the last 15 years, and he was ready to hit KCP with a two by four.

His sister's going at Magic fans on Twitter. Pretty amazing stuff. What about Dreymond with each and every Rocket? Yeah. It's completely separate arguments and frustrations with all of them somehow and I appreciate his ability to compartmentalize personally. Well don't you feel like that has a chance to go up a notch? Because the way they're guarding him with Van Vleet. Well, Van Vleet, we haven't really seen him have a moment with Dylan Brooks yet. There's going to be no Butler in game three.

So Draymond is going to be in that mode. Like I've got to do more. Yeah, that's a good one. I think Bucks Pacers is the most inexplicable one though. It's just a bunch of nice guys on both teams and yet they hate each other and it feels like it's going to be the anchorman brawl every time, every time it gets heated. I'm trying to think of anything else. Maybe some Lou Dort Memphis game four.

Yeah, they were getting in his ass a little bit. And I saw Draymond put up an Instagram story that was like, that's a dirty play. But I think when you go back and watch it, it's really hard to see Dort like, oh, I'm going to tackle job midair here. He's like slipping as Pippen turns around. Well, I told you, I would challenge any human being. Good. Go ahead, Rob. I would challenge any human being to try to move fast enough

while rotating their body to beat John Morant to a quick twitch spot in order to even try to undercut it. Like, it's just not a realistic human thing to do even for Lou Dort. even try to undercut it. Like, it's just not a realistic human thing to do even for Lou Dort. I told Sarudy and Kevin Clark that I had worked up a proper amount of hatred by like basically the halftime of game two for the Magic and for KCP. And they said, don't worry, we also hate KCP because he's been, I think he was like one for a hundred at that point in the series.

That's the funniest thing is you getting really cranky because you're worried one of the Saughtics is gonna get, you know, mortally injured. Well, they've hurt two. I know. They hurt Tatum and... It's a contact sport, Bill. Poor Zingas got split open like it was a fucking steel cage match against Roman Reigns. It's like, oh my God, he's busting wide open. Well, they tagged in Gogo Batasi. That's what happens after he comes into the game. Yeah, my dad was so upset.

He sent me some of the funniest texts just about Patazzi. He was like, who is this guy? He just comes in and fouls people. I don't think he's been logging a lot of Orlando Magic. It would be funny if after the Pacers get eliminated, you give James Johnson your dad's tickets so that it just pans up to James Johnson any time a Celtexplorer gets targeted.

Well, I mean, we always talk about movie coolers, right? Like Swayze and Roadhouse was the best one ever, and then we've seen people try to rip off that gimmick over and over again in movies, and James Johnson's the real life cooler, it seems like. Well, he's the same, at this point. He's aged out of Swayze, yeah. But he's still wearing a uniform, right?

I guess. Or does he become an assistant coach and do it that way? It's practically what Rick Brunson did tonight. So tomorrow we have Boston, Orlando, Indiana, Milwaukee, Lakers, Minnesota. Um, which one are you more excited about out of those three CR? Me? Lakers, Minnesota. That's been one of my favorite series so far. Same for your rep. Yeah. I would like to think that Pacers Bucks is going to be fun and competitive and maybe have a spin on that series.

I just don't really see what levers the Bucks can pull to really change things there. They kind of are what they are and Yannis is going to be amazing, but how do they really make anything happen versus we clearly know how the wolves make things happen and it's hit a fuck ton of threes, make really sharp decisions with the ball and counteract at least some of what the Lakers have going on on the other end. Yeah. So I w when I was talking to Eddie in terminy yesterday, Eddie, Eddie was thinking thought Janis and Milwaukee can come back and they're going to win the next two and this is going gonna be a long series.

And I just don't see it. I just think Indiana is just significantly better than them. And the way that Milwaukee wins game three, Yannis has a big game, but you could almost spot him the big game and I still think Indiana wins. But the game that's looming that hasn't happened yet is the Indiana fucks up the game in the lastoming that hasn't happened yet is the Indiana

fucks up the game in the last four minutes game. We've not had that yet. Oh, this is your Pacers. Well combined with, you know, Milwaukee home for game three, the refs that's, that's a game where you're probably going to get some calls. And, uh, I could just see this one being like, man, I can't believe we're not up three, oh, right now. How did we lose that? It feels like it could be one of those.

It's possible. They're not that bad in crunch time for the record. They know I just, I think they're probably about average. Well, so game two, what are they up 17? And then all of a sudden it's a two point game. Like they just have a lot of those. Yeah. Yeah.

Where it's just like, how did you let this team back in there? Um, Lakers, Minnesota, what I'm watching for after going to game two is just, um, is Edwards going to get involved earlier than he did? Um, what the, there was some interesting go bear. It didn't feel this way at the game, but there was some interesting go bear actually defending one on one against LeBron Luca. And, uh, I think it was LeBron, maybe it was LeBron and Luca, but they were like

basically four and 13 when four for 13, when they went at them Reeves had, I think a little more success. I felt like Minnesota did not ever want that to happen. And they were in complete panic every time go bear was, you know, in isolation with those guys, but I, I'm going to be interested to see if, um, They just keep doing that or if there's an extra wrinkle. I didn't like what I saw from connelly at all in game two So what is that? Just hard for him to play two games in three days. What do we have with that? There was some interesting shannon minutes in that game that I wonder like, yeah, you know

Could he swing it from an energy standpoint? I still rob I just still feel like the Lakers are really limited, man. That's like a team. That's a team that has five and a half guys. They've no rim protection at all. And they're just putting this incredible burden on LeBron and Rui to basically protect the rim and rebound that I don't know of sustainable, but wait, are you seeing anything else?

I mean, their defense was pretty incredible with that group. Yeah. Yeah. The more times you have to do that repetitively and the more times you're doing it and giving Anna a chance to look at it and see how to break it down. And they're going to film sessions in between is going to get harder and harder and there's no alternative, right? There's not the option to just play Jackson Hayes 35 minutes.

You can't do it. So all they have to do is stretch out Dorian and Rui and LeBron as much as you possibly can. And I thought LeBron was awesome on defense in particular in that game. He was great. Ultimately, the Lakers, I mean, they didn't light the world on fire with their own scoring. They won that game because they locked the Wolves up. And they forced a team that's a little shaky in its decision making to make some characteristically Wolves mistakes. Bill, did you notice it was the loading up on Ant? Because he said after the game that it felt like a zone and that he has to go watch the tape.

But in game one, they were loading up on Ant and I didn't necessarily think it was zone, but they were definitely cheating onto him. And he was there. I thought they were moving the ball really well in game one. The wolves were obviously they had threes coming out of like their ears that game, but it didn't feel significantly different on TV watching it. So I was kind of surprised that Ant was like, well, that was a new wrinkle.

I hadn't seen that yet. Yeah, I didn't see it at all. And I thought he was just too tentative. And I talked to somebody involved with the team at halftime and I was like, what's up with Ant? He said his shoulders bother him and seemed like he was tentative. So I think he had- Because he was swinging a lot.

Like he was, he was kind of like moving his arm around. There was one time he came to the table to go back in the game and he had one of those giant Norma tech kind of straight jacket things on, and it almost seemed like demonstrative, like my shoulder hurts. Look, I'm wearing this giant contraption. It was just weird. I thought it was a weird game for him, but I don't see him doing that in Minnesota. I could see him coming back hard.

So if you, is there any O and two team you think could come back Rob? I don't think so. Is there any, yeah, is there anyone you believe in? I don't think the Heat are coming back. Like, I mean, who else would we be talking about? But the Heat. That doesn't is very promising.

Is Roger, is he just like, we're never going to see him again. Like what's what's, what was Roger's injury? I mean, he's out for the year, right? Even if you had him, would you play him over Davion Mitchell? Who's I think is just a better player at this point. The Rosario's I had like, this feels like it should be a bigger story. This whole Roger thing, like how, I don't have to talk about some of the stuff he was involved with, but this guy went from,

they traded a first round pick, he was averaging 25 a game on Charlotte, to now he just has disappeared and nobody even talks about him during the games. It's just a weird one. I think he's in a, like he's still pretty injured, I believe. I think he might be out for at least a round or two, but

meanwhile, home prices on the Davion peninsula are just, they're shooting up, man. I mean, it's a really competitive market. Saruti told me, uh, two nights ago that if Orlando paid a hundred million dollars a summer for Ty Jerome, he wouldn't blink. That was what he said. Orlando paid a hundred million dollars a summer for Ty Jerome He wouldn't blink He said it but got that high fine, yeah, at least we got our guy Kind of how I felt about Milton Williams Patriots CR. It's like 26 a year. Whatever we needed a nose tackle But Ty Jerome and Suggs. So Rudy's already moved mentally to the Ty Jerome Suggs era for the magic. Honestly, pretty sick. You drafted a guy with dinosaur arms.

Are you excited? Little T-Rex arms? You know, I've heard the jokes and you know, we root for underdogs in New England and Boston. Yeah. Class over. So whenever you want to get an underdog, yeah. I just want to know how an inch became so important for the left tackle So there's 33 inch arms. He's fine, but 32 and 3 8. He's not fine. We'll find out. That's how we're gonna go

I remember a guy when a guy named Jalen Brunson dropped to the second round because it wasn't tall enough If you remember that one. All right, any last things here, what's the thing? You're most excited about this weekend rep? I'm trying to think of like which of these series can get, I feel a little disoriented because the series that we were loving are now also stilted. If Jimmy Butler doesn't play, if the Clippers keep really accelerating into this series, is there anything else in this first round

that we're really psyched about other than, I, we've already talked about it a little bit, but I do want to see the Wolves counterpunch. I do want to see what they've got. I think that's probably the most interesting next step for me. Yeah, I thought, like I agree with Rob, like I think Wolves Lakers is the best remaining series

and the one that I feel like has the most chapters. I don't know how many games it's going to go, but after game one, I was like, holy shit, these guys have more athleticism than the Lakers. Like this is crazy. And now I'm a little bit more measured about it. I would not count out Milwaukee in game three,

no I don't think they're very good. New York to Detroit feels like it might have some legs. For some fists. Orlando pulling a rock fight routine against Boston maybe stealing a game, but yeah this, we might be, the Clippers Denver seems like it might be headed to being a bust. So we're looking at-

After a week, what's the team you're most impressed by? It's gotta be the Clippers, I think, right? Yeah, I think the Clippers, because they should probably be up three nothing. The Thunder were impressive tonight. I mean, the thing is they were already so impressive. You know, the Clippers, we wanted to see how they stacked up against the team like Denver so much and they've had all the answers, right?

The fact that they're dictating all the terms of the series so far is really demonstrative at this stage in the playoffs. I would say out of the eight series, the only one I don't have a handle on and part of it is the Butler injury, but just the matchup is just, I don't think either team is happy with how they're playing the Golden State Houston. It's just, it's a weird one. I don't like Houston's offense. I don't like anything Golden States doing.

If Butler's not out there, I just don't think, I don't think they're good enough. Um, and a lot of it seems to hinge on how the each game is being officiated, which I never really like. And then the Rockets just have these wild cards where it's like, all right, Jalen Green made a couple of threes. So is he good now? Cause I think he could go one for 11 tomorrow night. You know, I don't trust basically anyone on their team.

Um, and then what they're getting away with defending Curry, not to be a Curry defender, but, um, the league's in a weird space right now because they've been really good about, you know, letting defenders be able to, letting defenders be able to, uh, basically contact when somebody's driving to the basket or whatever. I don't think they've done a good job of cleaning up the stuff way off the ball and some of the holds and just, and conversely, I don't think they've done a good job with the moving screens either, but it just seems like all the stuff off the ball

is worse than ever and then the physicality of guys going to the basket has actually been handled really well, but I just think the Rockets are getting away with crazy shit against Steph. I don't like it. I don't know that I've seen a minute go by in the series where someone's arm isn't around Steph's hip, just like locked locked in holding him in place as he tries to cut around the court

It's just yeah He's always had some of that where defenders are allowed to get away with things with stuff that they wouldn't be in any other Context or if he had the ball in his hands as they're saying it would be officiated completely differently Somehow he still busts loose as long as they have enough bodies to make their lineups work and without Jimmy Butler if that's gonna Be more than game three. I just don't think they have enough bodies to make their lineups work. And without Jimmy Butler, if that's going to be more than game three, I just don't think they have the bodies to make the lineups work. You'll be happy to know that folks on Warriors Twitter are doing collages of Ime Uduka coach teams diving at other guys legs and making dirty plays. So there are there are watchers on the wall, making sure our refs are accountable.

We're in a very healthy place. I'll say to the Pistons-Nix game today, it was refreshing to see the game end and both teams are just furious with the officiating. The backcourt violation for Brunson, as you said, Chris, was cited chapter and verse. Well, what about the rebound where no time went off the clock and then the guy ran the baseline

next to the Knicks bench, inbounding the ball, which I haven't seen in 20 years. Just something for everybody to be pissed about. It really warms the heart. All right, well, Rob, I know you're gonna be excited. What do you have for TV this weekend, other than the basketball? We got The Last of Us going on,

we got your friends and neighbors going on. There's some pretty solid TV happening right now. Yeah, C.R., have you still stole from your neighbors at all, or you haven't crossed that line yet? No, I- You're a Birken guy? Yeah. CR, have you still stole from your neighbors at all or you haven't crossed that line yet? No, I'm a Birkin guy. I'm worried a little bit about some of their security systems that they got here. No cameras in any of these houses in your friends and neighbors? Nobody has any nanny cams?

He's got a device that turns off the Wi-Fi. They finally explained it. We gotta address this pretty soon. All right. Thanks guys. Thanks for staying up with me. Thanks Bill. You got it though. All right. Thanks to Saruti and Gahau. Thanks to Van and CR and Mahoney. Don't forget about Celtic City. Eight episodes on Max right now. Ninth episode is coming on Monday night, 9pm HBO.

It is the final episode of a series that I am really proud of. So please go check it out. New rewatchable is coming Monday as well. We're still in our going live on Sunday again on this podcast, uh, on YouTube. So you can subscribe to the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, by the way, Fandool's ringer player performance, double profit boost token has moved to Sundays during the playoffs where you can claim a 30% boost on one of my favorite betting markets. I'll do a tweet that day. And if you don't know about those, you got to check them out.

Two leg parlays. Uh, you can take an NBA player pop, combine it with a bet on that players team to win and go nuts. So potentially like Minnesota Lakers, you could take Edwards for threes points, take Minnesota to win. And there you go this Sunday, be sure to claim your profit boost on Fandel Sportsbook before you watch the action. I will see you on Sunday with Priscilla.

Enjoy the weekend. I never said I don't have you here with me. Must be 21 plus in President-elect states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit md gambling help dot

org in Maryland. Hope is here visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 7 support massachusetts or call 1 8 7 7 8 hope ny or text hope ny in New York.