The Bill Simmons Podcast - Sleeping on Jokic, Marveling at Phoenix, and Wondering About Porzingis With Bob Voulgaris

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Haralabos Voulgaris to discuss the Mavericks moving on from Kristaps Porzingis, the scary Suns, how NBA team building has changed in the last two decades, the Jazz, speculation on the 76ers and Nets after the Harden-Simmons trade, another MVP caliber season from Nikola Jokic, a possibly wild Round 1 of the NBA playoffs, BitCoin, NFTs, and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Haralabos Voulgaris Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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which is on the Ringer Dish Feed. It is hosted by Claire Malone. It's a narrative podcast diving into tabloid culture in the 2000s. It's really good. Check that out. Brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook as well. I missed on my same game parlay on Wednesday night. I ended up doing a Wizards Pacers thing because I really wanted to do a Lakers jazz game. I was all excited about it because I was going to the Lakers jazz game and I was going to do a Lakers money line bet with LeBron and Davis probably would have been in it and he got hurt. So I would have lost it anyway. But that was a bummer because I did Washington.

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He is coming up. We'll talk trade deadline, playoff predictions, why Dallas got rid of Porzingis, Ken Harden saved the Sixers, all kinds of stuff. It's all next. First, our friends from Progen. All right. My friend Bob Valgaris is here. He came on, I think, before one of the holidays. And then he just goes. He's just off.

I don't know where he goes. He does stuff, travels, has this great life. Then comes back and immerses himself into the NBA season again. This is your first trade deadline. You weren't working for a team in a couple of years, right? Yeah, correct. Easier. Yeah, easier for you probably on betting.

Yeah, I mean, I think the last few deadlines are pretty tame, if I remember correctly, for us, for the Mavericks. Yeah, I think they were. Yeah, and of course, there was the one three years ago. That was pretty surprising. So what was your biggest surprise from the trade deadline, just going backwards? Was it the Halliburton trade? Was it that they pulled off the Harden trade or that somebody didn't make a trade, I think that was a little bit surprising just because I guess they're just trying to run it back. But if you look at their roster, there's not a whole lot they can do.

I mean, there really isn't. I mean, unless you can find someone who wants to take Westbrook or something like that, there's probably not a deal to be had. A lot of their contracts are either too small or really big, so it can be difficult. I think, yeah, the Sacramento-Indiana trade I think was pretty surprising.

Although understandable, I guess, from both teams' perspectives. And then, of course, the Mavericks trade was pretty shocking, I think. Yeah, let's start with that because you used to work for the Mavericks. But more importantly, the Porzingis piece of it. Because to me, it just seemed like they were kind of just getting out of the Porzingis piece of it yet. Because to me, it just seemed like they were kind of just getting out of the Porzingis business and taking what they could get and that maybe they just didn't trust him

physically anymore. And that if you could turn him into two smaller contracts, hope that Bertans made a miraculous comeback into the shooter he was three years ago. Then Dinwiddie gives them at least a backup guard who could do some stuff.

To them, that was just more palatable than rolling the dice with Porzingis for even three more months. It just seemed like they wanted out. Yeah, I think there's definitely, I mean, you kind of nailed it. It's certainly a lot easier to trade one smaller contract

and two smaller contracts than one big contract. I mean, I don't know. A lot of people are saying this Berton's contract is one of the worst contracts in the NBA.. I don't know. A lot of people are saying this Bertrand's contract is one of the worst contracts in the NBA. I just don't see it. I don't see how it's a bad contract. He's only getting $16 million a year.

Last year of his deal, I think, is only partially guaranteed for $5 million or something. And then, yeah. Then there's also... You even mentioned it. If he can get back to be the shooter he was three years ago, well... I mean, he really has shot well every year with the exception of this year. It's not yeah he shot 40 i believe last year so he doesn't have to get back to the guy he was three years ago he just has to get back to the guy he was before

this year and i think like when you're primarily a three-point shooter as as teams have witnessed i mean the variance if you're shooting almost all your attempts from three there's going to be massive variance in like a 30 or 40 game sample so um yeah, I don't know. For me, I think they... As an outsider, I think part of it is they want to retain Dorian Finney-Smith. They want to retain him and also, I guess, be able to offer Jalen Brunson a contract in free agency. And so doing that and having the KP contract on the books made that difficult. And now I guess they figure they can pivot with these two smaller contracts. They can make a decision in the summer whether they want to keep Dinwiddie or move Dinwiddie or sign Brunson or not sign Brunson. They'll have a lot more information, a lot more flexibility, I guess.

And I think that's probably a more measured approach than what they've done in the past, which is kind of just like impulsively make things happen and try to quickly cobble together a team without really being too thoughtful on what we're looking at three, four years down the road. Well, it seems like the team they have now is just space for Luka, right?

The last obstacle to that was Porzingis and trying to always have to shoehorn and get his touches and run the Porzingis post plays. Now you just don't have to worry about that anymore. Yeah, it just frees you up a little bit more. I mean, look, the part that people don't really

talk about enough, I think, is that he has been compromised physically for a number of years now. And especially last year, he wasn't 100%. I think that seems obvious. This year, he seems to be much better, but then he ran into another injury. He's constantly had bad injury luck.

And so hopefully that turns for him at some point down the line. But it just wasn't really like, if you look at the team that they're, I don't know the idea that, that, that, that he was going to be the running mate for Luca. I didn't really ever,

I don't know. I mean, it just, the deal happened, the rookie, the all-star break of, of Luca's rookie season. You didn't even really know what you had in Luca at that point.

You know, why are you, why are you rushing to, to pair him with another player? But yeah, they're moving on from it. I mean, the team is playing well. They're defending at a very, very high level. If you watch them play,

they seem to be a lot better than they have in years past. And so that's definitely a bonus for the coaching staff, which I think a lot of people were mocking the head coach decision that they made. And now it seems to be, the team certainly is playing better.

So there's that. I'm taking the loss on the Porzingis trade, the original one to Dallas. Cause I was a huge fan of his. I think the part I underestimated was he just never recovered from that knee injury, which I think, I think as I try to, you know, I'd like to think I'm still getting smarter about basketball, even as I get older. But I think one of try to, you know, I'd like to think I'm still getting smarter about basketball, even as I get older. But I think one of the things I would really worry about, and maybe I wasn't worried about it enough, is just when you have these super tall guys, when they have that first really bad injury, I think, you know, we've seen it just in general with Yao and with Ralph Sampson and Arvita Sabonis and these big ass dudes.

Now Embiid is kind of an outlier, right? Cause Embiid has been able to play 75 to 80% of his games and he seems like he's in good shape. Recently he wasn't able to before. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's, there's the frame on Embiid's a lot thicker. He's a lot, you know, he's a lot bigger. I mean, that might, that might have some negatives down the road. I don't know, man. I think there's so few players that are that tall to draw conclusions from, I mean, that might have some negatives down the road. I don't know, man.

I think there's so few players that are that tall to draw conclusions from. But there has been a... It does look like players that are taller don't last as long. They're not durable. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I didn't have any involvement in the trade itself, but I did. It was either one of, if not the number one restricted free agent that I wanted to look at the next year.

And so that was my input on the deal. I think I sent an email a couple weeks or maybe a month beforehand, just ranking the restricted free agents that were coming up. And he was up there near the top. And then I wake up one day and we've got Fort Zegnas on the roster, which is exciting. I definitely wasn't disappointed when it happened. I think there's a couple of things you can look at. One, it's a huge contract. You better be sure that you can fit together. The other thing is that I didn't understand, and then this will be the last little bit. I think we

can talk about this. But the part that I don't understand is what was the... People haven't really talked about it. What was the need to sign them to a five-year deal? You had his whole point of making the trade is to have his restricted free agent rights. He's got injury concerns. Sign him to a four-year deal. Maybe if he agrees to a team option, probably not. I don't know. But just the idea that I get that you want to show appreciation and give them a five-year contract, but that became the most difficult part because that fifth year fully guaranteed for a player who has injury history is just I mean kudos to the ownership for wanting

to stand up and do well by their players but it didn't seem like it made sense no one else could offer them five years if we were just kind of competing against ourselves in that regard but you know it's kind of what happened. It's interesting because Phoenix was in a similar situation

with DeAndre Ayton right last before the season started and they decided to punt on it until the summer. Sure. And I think I'm not the only one who heard there were whispers of, I don't think they were trying to trade him before the deadline, but I don't, I don't think they were slamming the phone down. And in general, in general, it, it, it raised flags for me because yeah. And yeah, I like the bridges extension more than you, but you basically have three and a half max guys. If you're going to give eight and an extension, if you include Paul and you include Booker, and we've just seen that we've never seen that Phoenix owner ever want to spend that kind of money. So in general, them shoving off that decision to next summer,

them not extending Jalen Smith for a third-year option, that's like just a no-brainer. Like, hey, you never don't renew the third-year option unless the guy has like legitimate issues. Yeah.

And it just, it stinks to me of cost-saving, which is why I think, like I really wonder, like could this be the last season we see with this

fantastic Phoenix team with all those pieces in place? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think, like, I really wonder, like, could this be the last season we see with this fantastic Phoenix team with all those pieces in place? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there's at least a slim chance that next year's team will look different. Yeah, definitely possible. I mean, I don't know where you got the, just on Bridges. I love the Bridges deal. I don't have any problem with the Bridges deal. I've always been a Mikkel Bridges guy, even back to when he was in college. So, yeah. I don't know. I got it from our text because we were arguing about it.

No, I don't know. I definitely didn't say that they paid too much for him. I just thought the timing of it wasn't necessarily ideal. But there's... Whether the team will be able to be the same team next year who knows i mean chris paul is also still getting it up there in age i

think the thing about centers is like a guy like obviously aiden's very valuable to them is do you want to lock up a lot of money on centers when as you mentioned like the wings are the real value in the league like if you just need a bunch wings. A lot of teams are going down. There's very few teams that need, or very few opponents that require a big center to combat. Embiid's probably and Jokic, those are the two guys that you have to game plan for

as centers. The rest are just kind of like the difference between a guy making $25-30 million versus a guy making the mid-level at the center position. There's not a whole lot of difference. So it's, do you really want to invest that much money in bigs unless they're absolutely dominant offensively or defensively? You and I agree on this. It seems like, I think that's one of the ways

the league has changed dramatically in the last eight years where the center, just the salary for the average decent center has just cratered. Because the days of the Roy Hibbert Eastern Finals, those days are long gone. You don't really need more than two centers on your roster. You can't really play more than one big guy at a time. The only team that really has been able to pull it off this year has been Cleveland. So when the Celtics signed Robert Williams to their extension, which I think was like

four years, 48. And I was like, Jesus, this guy can't stay on the court. And we're overpaying for that position. And I was dead wrong. He made a huge leap this year and he's been a really valuable asset at, I think it's 12 million a year. It's an absolute bargain. But then there's many other cases where you're like, oh my God, that guy it's 12 million a year. Like it's an absolute bargain. But then there's many other cases

where you're like, oh my God, that guy's making 12, that guy's making 15. It's rough, it's a tough one. I think there's like a thought that centers are kind of like the running back of the NBA where you could just, you don't need to pay a lot for a running back. You could just get a run of the mill running back.

I think that's kind of the thinking. I think also the prevalence of the three-point shooting and more space. I mean, I think in the past, there was almost just like a rule that was like kind of unspoken. People just kind of went because it was just kind of consensus. This is how we do things. Oh, we need to have up center. Like, oh, Kendrick Perkins has to start. We got to play. We're Oklahoma City. We got to play Kendrick Perkins. They're starting. Jane Battier, well, we still have to start Kendrick Perkins, right? Isn't there a rule that says that we have to start like the biggest guy on our team got to play Kendrick Perkins. They're starting Shane Battier. Well, we still have to start Kendrick Perkins. Isn't there a rule that says that we have to start the biggest guy on our team has to play?

I think basketball was always that way. You had the big center battles back in the day like Patrick Ewing, Mutombo, Olajuwon. There was a lot more skill at the center position. Now, it seems like they're much more rarer to find a center come in and be

super, super skilled. Like Embiid, when he first came into the league, was pretty raw, but he was still quite skilled. Now he's perfected the craft or on his way to perfecting the craft of offensive game, drop steps, drawing free throws. But guys like

that are very rare. I mean, there's two in the league probably, and the rest are all just run of the mill centers. What's funny is there's really three because I don't think we consider Giannis the center, but he's the center. Yeah, but he's a ball handling. Yeah. No, I get it. But he's like, technically he's the center. He's a 2022 center, but nobody thinks of him that way. But yet if you look at his stats compared to 1999-2000 Shaq, it's pretty similar all the way across

the board. Yeah, that's the point we're making where you don't need a center where you toss the ball into him in the post. Basically, a center who's not bringing the ball up the court, who's not initiating offense. And even Jokic is kind of like... Jokic isn't even really a center when you look at it that way either. He's like the point guard. He's like a point forward.

So it's pretty rare to have a guy who just... Gobert is really the exception to the rule of players getting paid that are just sent. Gobert doesn't really do a whole lot on offense. Sets screens, rebounds, and defends, and that's it. You could argue that his contract

is probably one of the few ones that's kind of payable because of his defensive impact. I want to go back to Gobert in a second because I had an additional thing on him. But we're talking about, so Porzingis, and I think that extension was like 2018.

It was right at the tail end of when the concept of a center, I think, was still pretty seductive. And in his case, like, oh my God, he's basically the greatest stretch five we ever could have created. On the one end, he can space the floor. And on the other end, he can actually be your defensive anchor on paper, right? But at the same time, the league is changing and Dallas is caught up in this no man's land where the league hasn't totally changed yet. but you can kind of feel it's changing. So I can't fault the thinking of

the Porzingis thing. Cause I was right there with it from what we saw at the Knicks. What's interesting though, is I think everyone points to the Hibbert series, including me, like those two Hibbert series, like, Oh my God. Then the next year, Atlanta played them off the floor and everything was different. The 2008 Celtics. and I knew you were gambling during this point, but they would play these big lineups like you were talking about because that's what we're supposed to do. You play Big Baby and Perk together and you play Leon Poe and KG and Perk and all three of them would be out there. The best lineup they always had was when they

went small. They finally, in the the Lakers comeback game in game four, they said, fuck it. And it was like Garnett Pierce and shooters, right? It was Garnett Pierce, Allen, Eddie house, James Posey. And they're like running the Lakers off the floor. And then next game, it's like, nope, got to play Leon Poe again, more big baby. And it was like, the answer was the recipe was right there the whole time and that now i look back at that 08 Celtics team i'm like that was like could have been one of the better small ball teams because they had all the pieces for it but i don't think people realize what it was in the moment i guess is my point yeah i think the other team that people talk about is or is the magic who just had i mean they had a right oh nine right yeah but it was but it was just dwight the shooters basically like richard le Lewis was the four, and that was like such oh my god, we're playing a non-traditional back-to-the-basket four.

What is going on here? Turkey Lewis playmaking and what is this? 6-9 point forward. I think the 2010 finals was the last old-school finals. I think you could make a clear demarcation from that finals

and then everything afterwards for, like, look at that 11 Dallas team that won. And look at that Miami team that was basically boshed at center effectively, right? It's just the league shifts. Their opponent was rolling out a Baca in Perkins. So it wasn't like, I think. True.

Yeah. I mean, I think Miami, I don't know if that was the I believe that was the year they played Oklahoma City but that was that was 2012 it was Miami Dallas

then the 2012 was Miami OKC I'm just wondering was that the year Bosh got hurt or not I can't remember if that was the year Bosh got hurt I believe so

and that kind of forced them to go small and then they kind of realized like oh how good are we now that we're small that was 13 That was when they took their, they had their winning streak and all that stuff when they basically

the 13 Heat, I think, are the first team that really mastered small ball. At least during the regular season where they were like, look at this. Nobody can match up with this. And now... What about the Phoenix Suns, the run and gun Phoenix Suns? They might have mastered small ball, right? I mean, we forgot about them.

Well, they would still, like, they would shoehorn the Oliver Miller 20 minutes in and the stuff like that. No, no. You're talking about the Barnaby team or after?

No, I'm talking about the seven seconds or less Amari Stoudemire. Oh, the six Suns. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bors Diel's center when Stoudemire went injured. Remember, Bors Diel

was their center for a while. Sean Marion was up before. So that was probably the first one, I think, looking back. I enjoyed that team. That team was fun. I remember, yeah. Yeah, that was a fun team. They were...

It's funny because looking back, they didn't even really shoot that many threes or play that fast relative to what's happening right now. Like right now, I think they would be in the bottom third of the league in pace. I looked this up. I think they'd be, at least for threes, they'd be like last. Yeah.

I think like every team now shoots more threes than the 2007 Suns. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. There's, it's interesting. I mean, the three-point stuff has just gotten bananas at this point, but it makes sense. I mean, it's basically like a cheat code. You know, I don't know if you play video games, but if you've ever played video games, like

they do patches to update like flaws. Oh, yeah. So like they would have nerfed the three-point shot like a long time ago if it was a video game. They'd be like, oh yeah, this is just too overpowered.

We got to take this out of the game. It was a video game because it's just too, it's just too much of a cheat code. But it's interesting to see the teams go that way. I want to keep talking about this. We're taking a quick break.

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to have this like incredible dominant small ball team in the entire 2000s, right? With Duncan. And if Duncan, Manu and Parker by 2004. And at that point, all they had to do was just add shooters and maybe like a hybrid three, four kind of thad young body type guy, and maybe a backup center who could play like 10 minutes a game. And that's it. But you weren't thinking about that back then. Right. But, but on paper, all they had to do was just keep adding shooters. I guess they tried with Richard Jefferson. He just didn't play well there.

But it's fun to look back at some of those teams and be like, oh, if they had all the information we have now, what would have been, you know, their one or two moves? Because they just wasn't the mentality back then. Yeah. Back then it was harder to find shooters too. I mean, you'd had guys who could shoot,

but couldn't do anything else. Right. Or you had guys who could defend and you could turn them into like a decent, like maybe a corner three-pointer. Like Bruce Bowen was a good example of that. They couldn't shoot free throws, but could shoot corner threes.

Couldn't shoot above the break threes, but could shoot corner threes. And so there's guys like that. And then there was the guys that were like, you know, the Matt Carrolls who were really good shooters, but couldn't defend at all or anything like that. And then there was the guys that were like, you know, the Matt Carroll's who are really good shooters, but couldn't defend at all or anything like that. They're literally just shooters.

So yeah. The team that I really like where the leagues is now, where the league is now, because there's so many different kinds of styles and types of teams. I was worried like two years ago that we were just going to turn into this league that just everybody was doing the same thing and everybody was going to shoot 35 threes a game. And it all kind of depended on how good your guy was one-on-one in the last

minute. But I don't feel that way. I actually think there's a lot of different styles and teams. And I think that's why a lot of us have gravitated to watching Memphis and Cleveland and Phoenix. And there's just weird teams in a good way. I went to Utah Lakers last night. I took my son and all his friends and it was a pretty boring game for three quarters. And then the fourth quarter, LeBron, Aaron Donald was sitting courtside on the side LeBron was shooting on the fourth quarter. And LeBron, because he's one of the best ever, he started feeding off Aaron Donald

and just destroys the Jazz. But it was the same predicament the Jazz have over and over again, right? Where the team went small, Gobert's kind of on an island, Gobert's coming out, challenging LeBron, and LeBron's just either shooting threes over him, taking the basket.

And it's like rinse, lather, repeat with the Jazz where they have these leads and they can't, once the team does like this, all right, we'll try this. And then it actually works. If you're running the jazz, what would you do? Because I don't think they have any chance of winning the title,

but the trade deadline passed. I just don't like their nucleus. I think they're slow on the perimeter. You could feel it last night. And I just, I don't see it. Am I missing something? No, I mean, but there's very few. You could feel it last night. And I just, I don't see it. Am I missing something? No, I mean, but there's very few teams that have a chance to win the title to begin with.

I don't know. I do think like people have kind of latched on this idea that Gobert gets played off the floor in the playoffs. And if you go back and look at the data, it's like not actually that accurate. They have performed better with him on the floor for the most part. There's always stretches where it looks

like he's struggling, where he's getting ISO'd up versus the guard. But overall, their defense is better with him on the court. Their offense is better with them largely on the court in the playoffs. It's just they're playing teams that are very skilled and are tough matchups for them, or they've had

injury problems also. I don't know. I don't know what I would do if I were them. I mean, these teams are at such disadvantages because nobody's like, oh yeah, I can't wait to go get off my rookie deal so I can go sign in Utah. Right.

And the other side of that is it's really hard to keep your players too. So they had to make a decision. Do they want to not sign Gobert? Are they ever going to get a player as good as Gobert in free agency? Probably not. Are they going to make a decision. Do they want to not sign Gobert? Are they ever going to get a player as good as Gobert in free agency? Probably not. Are they going to be able to get one in the draft?

Maybe, but they're not in the tanking situation. So they're going to have to get super, super lucky with a later pick. I don't know. I wouldn't really, I mean, the part that I didn't get is I wasn't a huge fan

of letting go of Ingles. That to me, I think Ingles is like a valuable player for them. Well, but he was out for the year though. True. You mean like for next year? Yeah. I mean, I guess

my point is I don't get the idea of I don't know, what is your goal exactly? Your goal is to get better this year and not worry about it? Do they really think they have a chance to compete this year? I don't know. I mean, it seems difficult. They, yeah.

The West is kind of like, I mean, there's like a couple, there's two or three teams in the West that have a legitimate chance, it seems, and the rest are just kind of like fighting for a hot streak or get lucky. I don't know. It's tricky.

Yeah. I mean, I guess looking back, he was injured, so it makes sense. But they don't get to It's tricky. I guess looking back, he was injured, so it makes sense. But it's the lack of his career. But they don't get to pocket him for next season. I guess for what they got, they got Alexander Walker, whatever. Yeah, I'm not really too familiar with... I haven't spent a ton of time researching

Mikel Alexander Walker's game. Some of the ratings are decent. He seems okay. A lot of the players in New Orleans, I think, were unfairly, or not unfairly, but were difficult to kind of judge based on, if you look at a lot of their individual players' defensive numbers, for instance, were awful the Van Gundy years. Yeah.

Because their strategy was just counter to what a lot of teams were doing in the league. And so their defensive rating numbers for a lot of these players took a hit because of their strategy. So he's a guy that might be difficult to evaluate with that when you think of that. Well, that would have been my strategy if I was ever a GM,

is just target the teams that are a complete mess. You target that, but you also target the GMs who are trying to save their job, who are panicking to make deals because they have to, you know, that's where there's a huge disconnect between a person who's a general manager of a team who's looking to just get another contract, stay employed. He's not really thinking about the future of the franchise. He's not like a steward

of the franchise. That's where it's really... And there's... I'm not gonna... But there's definitely been a bunch of instances like that in the last three or four years where guys have just panicked and made all these deals to blow cap space of their like that in the last three or four years where guys have just panicked and made all these deals to bloat cap space of their teams, mortgage the future. Not necessary to win now, but just to be good enough so that I can keep my job or make a big splashy trade to save my job. It's

really interesting. So those would be the guys I would target and as well as the teams that are trying to shed salary that aren't really run very well. I feel like I've been writing about those GMs and talking about them on this podcast really for the last two decades. It's the guy who is like in fuck it mode is the most dangerous person to an NBA franchise. The guy who's like, hey, if this doesn't work, I'm getting fired anyway. And that leads to trading for CJ McCollum, who's going to make $33 million next year.

I like CJ McCollum, but you do those trades when it's like, if this doesn't work, I'm not going to have a job next year. I'm talking to David Griffin. But those are... It's almost like a Hail Mary trade. That one...

Hail Mary trade, yeah. Yeah, that one... Look, I like Josh... Not that one specifically, but the idea... Yeah, you know what I mean. You make a trade that's just like, well, let's hope this works, otherwise we're not going to be here. It's funny because you don't know about that one specifically, but the idea that you make a trade that's just like, well, let's hope this works. Otherwise, we're not going to be here. It's funny because you don't really think about how difficult these jobs are to get and how much they get paid and how

reasonably rational it is to think that way as a normal human being who's thinking about their own autonomy. Like, yeah, I want to keep this job that pays me between $3 million to $10 million a year. Why wouldn't I? But from an outsider's perspective, you're not necessarily doing the job you're supposed to do, which is benefit the team you're employed by. And I'm not saying that Brad Stevens is like this, but the Celtics, I really like the Derek White trade because I like Derek White. He's in the right spots. He knows how to play. He's fun to play with. I get it.

And he's had an impact on this team right away. But when we did our whole three-hour trade deadline pod, we didn't realize there was this caveat where they did this top one protected pick swap in 2028 with San Antonio. And my dad texted me and he's like, did you know that my dad hates me and he's like, did you know about, like, my dad hates pick swaps more than anything, especially because we were on the other side of one with the Joe John, with the, uh, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce straight. He says, you know, we give up a pit and I'm looking it up. I'm like, that can't be true, but they did. And it's six years from now.

And it's like the cynical side of me is I think Brad Stevens has done actually a pretty good job so far revamping this team. But the cynical side of me is like, his Brad Stevens has done actually a pretty good job so far revamping this team. But the cynical side of me is like, his kids are going to be grown up in six years. He's probably going to be coaching either some awesome NBA team or the Celtics, or maybe he's coaching Duke or North Carolina. Like, what does he care about a pick-swap six years from now?

And I just, I never would have done it. I never would have included that. Now the argument would be, well, we never would have gotten Derek White. I'm like, are we sure? We sure that the Spurs would have held the fort on not trading Derek White? If the pick swap was in there? The Spurs do not historically make in-season trades.

So maybe that's what they needed to get the deal done. Who knows? It's very tough to know. That's one thing I think is fine is interesting is like especially spending time in a front office and knowing what's happening and then being on the outside and reading what's supposedly happening is just like how you know how much misinformation grasping at straws you have in the media stuff that's planted so who knows yeah we will never know what you know what with if the Spurs would

have done it or they wouldn't they only a few people know that. That's probably the people in Spurs' front office. But Derek Wright is a very, very, very valuable player in terms of his numbers are very... His ratings on our system are very good. He does all the little things. He's very good defensively. Hasn't even shot particularly well from three, but yet is still a positive influence

because he doesn't take a ton of bad shots. Doesn't really... He's always in the right place. Doesn't need to use a ton of possessions. And then where he really shines is defensively. His defensive numbers are, are, are quite good.

He's one of the better defensive guards by our numbers in the league. He's a classic. He's a classic knows how to play basketball guy. They had to play like the first game. He just shows up right before the game. He plays like 30 minutes and he has this one play where he gets thrown the ball on the left. Tatum gives it up. White gets it. He drives, which is the right move. He draws like three people over.

Kicks it back out on the right side, but then keeps moving. Comes back for the three and then gets it back. He made three really smart plays with movement, which if you'd watched the Celtics the last couple of years, it wasn't exactly a movement friendly team and stuff like that. Start then other guys start moving. And you know, I do think it's infectious, but pick swaps, man, to me it's like top three.

How about top three protected for the pick swap? And that's it. Or I'm hanging up. But I actually, you know, of course, the Celtics smart gets hurt. Williams gets hurt right when things are looking awesome. But I was becoming a believer because the defense was there. And you look at, it wasn't just the winning streak. It was since December 31st. The defense was the best defense in the league.

The defense was awful at the start of the season because they were switching everything. The players didn't know what they were doing. It took a while for them to kind of figure it out. And then now they've kind of figured it out. They are the most switch-heavy team defensively in the NBA. So it makes sense that they want to trade for a guard who can guard up a few positions

because he's going to be guarding in switches. So I can see why they made that deal for him. I think he'll help their defense, but yeah, they're, they're an outlier in terms of how much they switch relative to the rest of the league. You can also switch if you have white and smart and Tatum and Brown out there

all at the same time, you can basically switch on everything in the perimeter. And the big thing that happened this year was Rob Williams, who was a disaster. Anytime he got switched, right. He was always two seconds late on whatever three was coming. This year he's been pretty good. So now I just think they're hard to play if they can get everyone healthy. And I gotta be honest, like

I don't see anyone in the East that I'm terrified of. I would say Milwaukee is, would be if gone to my head, the pick I would want Miami is kind of the sleeper just because I want to see what they look like when Lowry is finally healthy and looking good for a month. Now, he's also old. We may never see that. But if we can see a stretch from Lowry that he really looks like Lowry again, I think they have to be taken seriously. I don't feel nearly as strongly about Philly and Brooklyn.

And the more I look at the Philly deal, and especially like losing Curry in that thing too, who was one of the few people that gave them a little movement and a little unpredictability. And now I just feel like, I think they're going to, as weird as this sounds, going to be pretty predictable offensively. And I'm not sure that deal is going to work. That predictability is not necessarily a downside. I mean, if you're

like, I don't think you have to be unpredictable if you have a guy who can, they're going to draw so many free throws. That's a part I think that people are going to be living at the free throw line. And that has a bunch of different knock-on effects. It reduces the, if you're playing a team that doesn't have a lot of depth, those players are going to be in foul trouble.

They're a tough, tough team to match up with because you need to play a big to guard and bead. So now you've got to alter your game panel a little bit. There's very few teams that are comfortable playing a big at all times. I don't know. It's hard to say. Who knows how they'll actually fit together. There's this idea that Harden really needs a rim running or a five-out type of scheme to be successful because that's how he's been successful in the past.

But I'm sure he can adjust his game. The one thing I think will be interesting is how much they stagger those two because that will be fun. Being able to just have an Embiid squad and then a Harden squad with space around him. They don't have a ton of shooting, unfortunately, after they gave up Curry.

But I don't know. I think you have to make that deal. I think both teams benefited from that deal. I mean, I think where Philadelphia was a little bit disappointed was I think they thought there was a chance they could keep Simmons and then also get him in, recoup whatever organizational failures they've had and relationship issues that they had with him and the team. I think they thought, well, if we can get this right and then sign Harden in the off season, somehow they can find a buyer for some contracts. That's what they wanted to do because I think they thought they were going to get Harden

in the off season anyways. They have to shed some salary, but I'm sure they would be able to make it happen. And then now they have to actually give up Simmons or do two separate deals and get hardened for free. I think they just decided to do it now, get it over and done with. Yeah. Who knows? It's tricky. They're going to be tough. They're going to be tough. I think they'll be the biggest variance. The spread between how good they'll be and how bad they'll be is massive because it's just super unpredictable.

I think you can make the same case for Brooklyn. I think both those teams are just going to be super interesting to watch down the stretch because nobody can really accurately say how it's going to play out. I think people can guess, but it's going to be really tough to call. I think Brooklyn is going to be good. I think people can guess, but it's going to be really tough to call. I think Brooklyn, I think Brooklyn is going to be good. I think Brooklyn, uh, adding Simmons

defensively is huge. Um, they can play it, you know, they can play them as a primary. He doesn't need to take shots. They've got guys who can shoot. They've got Durant who's, you know, as good as it gets offensively, literally. And so, yeah, it'll be, um, it'll be interesting to watch. I mean, I think they have a chance. I mean, who knows? Also, they might,

at some point down the road, Kyrie might be able to play home games. Again, I know they've talked, the mayor's talked a little bit about

being conflicted there. If that happens now, that's a completely different situation. The fact that he can't not to get on is absurd to me, that a visiting player

who's unvaccinated can play in Brooklyn. It's been done the whole time. Honestly. They realize it. So maybe that'll change. Maybe it won't. But yeah, I think it'll be fun.

Both those teams, to answer your question, who's the wild... I mean, in the East, Miami's pretty old, but they're going to be tough in the playoffs. Milwaukee seems to be the team to beat.

But we'll find out. The East is going to be lit. That's going to be the playoffs that everyone's going to want to watch, I think. It's so funny. It flipped. I think with Philly and Brooklyn, the more I've been looking at it, when you talk about the variance, the two things for Philly

for me are, is Embiid, am I getting him 100% or 95% the rest of the way? Because that's a lot to ask. He's missed a lot of games over the years and he'll disappear for two weeks and whatever. He's been pretty healthy this year and he seems like he's in good shape. But then you have the heart and peace where he's had issues with his legs the last two years. He's getting older. We know about his lifestyle, which has been reported about in multiple places. And he's had issues with his legs the last two years. He's getting older. We know about his lifestyle, which has been reported about in multiple places. And he's hitting that age where,

you know, we've seen guys kind of go sideways. We saw it. Iverson's the worst case example of this, but Iverson went from 27 a game till he was out of the league in two years, you know? And so I wonder about the durability of those two guys, which is weird to worry about Harden's durability when he played like every game for 10 years. But the durability of those two guys, which is weird to worry about Harden's durability when he played like every

game for 10 years, but the durability of those guys going through four playoff rounds. Iverson had some off the court stuff that probably impacted him. I know he did. I'm aware, but I'm not sure Harden doesn't. Well, I mean,

the Iverson stuff was, I think a lot different than Harden just likes to go out. I don't think Harden's like, yeah, it's not certainly not. I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Brooklyn piece, it's just people are now penciling Ben Simmons

into being the Ben Simmons that we saw before he melted down in the playoffs. And I would just like to see it. I'd like to see it for a few weeks. I would like to see him shoot free throws in a one-point game in a minute left on the road. I would like to see how he handles

booing in different places. I think people overreact. I don't think he did himself any favors. People definitely overreacted to that playoff series. And just assume that that's who he is. I mean, I don't know like yes he passed

that shot at the last whatever and and could have went up got fouled shot free throws or could try to make the layup when he passed out of it that was obviously bad detrimental to his team but just kind of shows you the kind of world we live in where every little move gets micromanaged and talks about for years like that happened last year's playoffs. People forget that... I don't know. I mean, he was a decent... He hasn't been this his whole career. He was an okay free throw shooter

earlier on in his career. It's not like free throw shooting is this magical thing that's so difficult to do. Do I think he'll ever be a three-point shooter? Probably not. But he hasn't done himself any favors by the way he's refused

to acknowledge the weaknesses in his game and improve upon them. he hasn't done himself any favors by the way he's refused to kind of acknowledge the weaknesses in his game and improve upon them but I think people are giving him too difficult a time here to think that he's just you know his mental state is now mind you he has claimed that he's

part of the reason why he can't play is because of his mental state so that's fair that people are saying that but I don't think he's like just a perennial choker. I don't think he's a guy who was just going to choke for the rest of his life. Right. I mean, people get better,

they improve. Um, it'll be interesting to see. He's still very young. It's a different situation, different environment. It can't be fun to have your coach talk about you the way that happened right immediately after a loss that couldn't have been fun.

And he barely said anything. He said, I don't know. It's hard because you lose these games and then you're forced to go and talk about how you lost in front of everybody. I get that. But if someone says, do you think he could win a championship or do you think he's a player you can build around or whatever the question was, can you win a championship

with Ben Simmons? I don't know right now. It just seems like such a weird... It was just such a passive... And maybe he didn't mean to be in that way. It just seemed like such a passive-aggressive dig at a player who just had probably the lowest point of his career. And maybe...

Yeah. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe there's more to it. Maybe he was a jerk all year and there's a reason for it, but it definitely spun the situation in such a way where it became, um, untenable. So I'm glad both teams were able to move on and,

and, and kind of, you know, get, you know, he's, he's in a different spot now. He's got to play with completely different vibe,

different team. It'll be interesting to watch. I don't know if it was worth sacrificing $20 million because your coach kind of hurt your feelings. Well, maybe not. Maybe he doesn't care about money. I mean, maybe he thinks he's going to get the money back. Listen, if I'm 25 years old and I'm still trying to get better,

I don't know how it helps me not to play basketball. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that that's a good idea. Yeah. No, I'm definitely agreeing to get better. I don't know how it helps me not to play basketball. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that that's a good idea. Yeah. No, I'm definitely agreeing with you there. Also, also, it wasn't just that he passed up the dunk.

It was the fact that he didn't want to get from the free throw line. He didn't want to shoot. He didn't want to get fouled. I watched this happen with Antoine Walker with the Celtics where once that gets in your head and it starts changing how you play, that's a real

thing. That's not a funk. He didn't want to get fouled. Who else struggled at the free throw line and wasn't super crazy about shooting free throws in a playoff series? Was shooting 50%? Giannis. People forget. They're counting a 10. And then in

the final game, he went like 19 to 25 or something, or 21, some ridiculous number. So I'm not comparing Ben Simmons' work ethic to Giannis. Obviously, Giannis is a different breed. He's going to work. He's going to get better. He's also probably mentally tougher. He grew up in a pretty difficult situation. Probably.

Yeah. But I don't know. I just think it's a little bit early to write a guy off who has that talent and who is in a new situation that by all accounts should be positive i mean it's going to be kind of a messed up situation until you got kairi this different cat for sure you've got durant who's a very i mean it's it has a chance to go really bad i'm not gonna lie but it's gonna be fun to watch that's for sure the red flag me, other than the fact that he just decided not to play basketball for eight months is I just get nervous when guys don't have that maniac. If you're one of the best 15,

20 players in the league, you're making big money and you don't have that maniacal urge to just keep getting better. Right. I think that is over and over again. If you just look at anything about why is somebody great versus why didn't they get there? It's the work ethic piece. And it's like, you mentioned Giannis. Giannis is fearless. Like he, he was never afraid of a moment. He didn't care that he wasn't, he would miss two free throws in a row in a finals game. And then he would make the next two. Like he, he never seemed like he was scared of the moment and he really did work to keep improving and adding things to his game. And I just didn't see it from Simmons. I didn't see him really adding anything. And I was one of his bigger fans. Cause I think

I really valued what he did defensively. And I valued his transition stuff. And, um, I thought he was one of the best 20 players in the league. I thought Houston should have traded for him in the hardened trade versus what they got from Brooklyn. But after last playoffs, he really has to prove it to me. It just can't be like, I'm on a new team. I have a new number. Yeah, everything you said is very fair. I mean, look, he isn't diligent. It doesn't seem like he's added anything or much to his game since he's got things.

Yeah, are you better at shooting threes? Are you better at shooting free throws? Do you have a better low post game? What are you better at than you were in 2019? His low post game is pretty good, I think. He's definitely good in space. He didn't come into the league an awful

free throw shooter. He just didn't want to shoot threes and then the free throws were something later on. I'm not sure what happened. Who knows? Let's take a break. I want to talk about Brooklyn Cooper. Just to put a bow on Brooklyn. So let's concede, let's say Simmons is at least as good as he was

in the 2019 playoffs when they lost to Kawhi. Let's say Kyrie is able to play every playoff game and that he can somehow stay in the four. Let's say Durant's legs are okay and that he can get back to 95% of where he was. Let's say Curry fits in. Do you still like this team to win four straight playoff rounds?

What else needs to happen? Patty Mills, I guess, would be the fifth. So Mills, Curry, Kyrie, Durant. They don't have a lot of defense. Let's just be clear. They don't play a particularly analytically friendly game of basketball. So they're leaving a lot of points. Let's just be clear. They don't play a particularly analytically friendly game of basketball, so they're leaving a lot

of points on the table there. You could argue, although they do have guys who are very good at taking the shots that they're taking, so it might be a smooth. Marcus Aldridge, 18 feet away from the basket, banging away long twos. He's been pretty good at it. Katie obviously is the best in the world at that shot,

so that's fine. But they don't take a ton of threes. Maybe Curry changes that. I don't know, man. People forget they were an inch away from getting to the finals last year, yeah? Or getting to whatever in the next round past Milwaukee. I'm sure

they would have handled it. But we think the East is way better this year. Whoever they play in round one is going to be considerably better than that Celtics team they played last year. Yeah, probably. I mean, the East is very tough. I mean, do I know?

I mean, I think that they're overrated for sure in terms of, I thought they'd been overrated all year, even prior to the vaccine mandate stuff that halved Kyrie's production. But yeah, I don't see it, but they also have guys who are... It'll be interesting to see because the defense will change a lot with Simmons.

Their full-court transition game will change a lot. It'll be... I think the argument that Harden... I don't think Harden, Irving, and when all three are available, Harden, Irving, and Durant really fit well together anyways. It was kind of like a your turn, my turn type

thing. And none of them really defend very well with the exception of Durant, I guess, as a good defender. So I think they'll be better with Simmons than they were with Harden. I'll say that just because of fit. I don't think Simmons is a better player. I just think he's a better fit. They'll defend better.

They'll have one less guy who needs the ball. If I were a betting man, I would probably say the best team in the East is still Milwaukee. That would be me. Until proven otherwise, I think they are.

And then after that, it could be any one of a number of teams. Chicago's pretty good too, by the way. I haven't even talked about Chicago once. They're pretty good too.

I wanted to. Fando has Milwaukee as the favorites in the East at plus 260 and Brooklyn at plus 300, which I don't understand. Philly's plus 330.

Miami's plus 550. I like Miami more than the last two teams I just mentioned. Celts are 11-1. Chicago's 15-1, and I think it's because 15-1 seems high to me because right now Chicago's the one seed. There's only 23 games left in the season. Odds are they're not going to fall past the three seed

even if they lose some stuff. But I think they'll get Caruso back. They might get Pat Williams back. Levine has some, they're talking about he's getting his knee checked out, stuff like that. But there is a world where they get all their guys back. And plus some of the guys, like the Ricky Poincard they have, some of the guys they get all their guys back. And plus some of the guys, like the Ricky point guard they have,

some of the guys they've had to play in the absence of some of these other guys have actually come through in different ways. You know, even Kobe White. So I'm with you. I'm not ruling them out. There's four and a half games separating first in the East from the play-in.

That's pretty crazy. That's insane. So if it, so Toronto is 7 at 3rd. They're 32 and 25. We're taping this Thursday afternoon in Pacific. Brooklyn's 8 at 31 and 27. And they're only two wins ahead of Charlotte. So it's probably going to be Brooklyn, Charlotte, Atlanta,

and then one of Philly, Boston, Toronto in the play-in. And there's a really good chance Brooklyn would have to win both playing games on the road because you figure they're going to not be great for at least a couple more weeks until Durant comes back. They could be a nine seed, something like that. I just would not want to have all

my playoff rounds on the road. I would not want a situation where it's just every round, it's like just that game seven on the road is hanging over you. I think that's too hard. I think it with them, it might benefit them though, because they will have their full roster on the road games versus the

home games unless the mandate changes, right? I mean, to them, it might be a benefit to be on the road. Kyrie will be able to play road games. He'll be able to play home games. So to them, it might be a benefit. Listen, if the mandate doesn't change by that point, we're all in trouble because that would just be because society is insane. To be clear, it's just the New York mandate.

But yeah, I get it. But then you go on the other side. It's Phoenix and Golden State. They're both basically 2-1 to win the West. Memphis is 41-19. So they're only a game and a half behind Golden State. They're in the three spot. They're 14-1 to win the West.

And then it drops to that Utah, Dallas, Denver, Minnesota. It's basically three teams, in my opinion. Dallas has a semi wild card just because of Luka. And then Denver has a semi wild card just because of Jokic and the Murray possibilities. But I wanted to talk about Jokic because, and we do this with the narrative stuff, right? Curry was the MVP.

First of all, we're in this new cycle where the MVP has to be decided after 10 games. But it's Curry's the MVP. And it's like, no, no, actually Embiid's the MVP. First of all, Embiid and Giannis have the exact same stats. And Giannis' team is slightly better. But if you just look at, you just compare, Giannis is 29-11-6

and beats 29-11-5. Giannis is 55% shooting. It beats 49. Like, you go on through and it's like they're basically even. The outlier of this season that it's just nobody wants to talk about is Jokic.

Jokic is averaging 26-14-8. He's shooting 57%. He's a borderline 57, 40, 80 guy. And here's who he's playing with. Aaron Gordon, Will Barton, Monte Morris, Jeff Green, Austin Rivers, Compasso, Brent Forbes, who just joined the team. They're 33 and 25. They're one game behind Philly.

To me, he's clearly the MVP right now as we head into the All-Star break, but I think most people have him third. I think their record isn't quite good enough. I think you have to be one of the... The exception of the Westbrook year where he averaged a triple-double. You've pretty much got to be a top

three or whatever seed in your conference. Philly's a five seed, so what? Philly's a five seed and Denver's a six seed. You riled off all those Jokic stats. The craziest stat is that I've seen is they're scoring 103 points per possession with him off the floor and 118 with him on the floor.

That's like one of the biggest differences I've seen. I mean, defensively, by the way, it's similar. It's like 115 with him off and 109 with him on. I mean, they are so, by the way, they're similar. It's like 115 with him off and 109 with him on. I mean, they are so much better with him on. His on-off numbers are breaking models. I mean, it's absurd how good his on-off numbers are. And some of it is the fact that his backups are awful. But the other part of it is, he's just such a good player. He's such a

tough player to game plan against. He's so unique. But yeah, he could be the MVP. I think if I'm doing the MVP, it's one of those... But Curry, I mean, by the way, Curry's pretty tough too. I mean, it's like such a difficult... It's such a difficult... Yeah, it's such a difficult year to call it, I think.

I mean, I would say Curry, Embiid, Giannis, Jokic. I wouldn't really be upset with any one of those guys, really. Maybe, yeah, I wouldn't be upset with any one of those guys being MVP. The thing with Jokic, he played the Celtics on Friday night, and he didn't have an awesome

game. The Celtics actually did a pretty good job of them, and he still ended up with 27-10 and 9 assists, but he had 9 turnovers. But he's replicated that the college team in March Madness that's built around the one guy. And he just does everything. And you're like, wow, that guy's fucking awesome. Look at he's playing with like these cute shooters and like these little like frisky rebounders. But like he's clearly the moment he goes out of the game, you feel like it's going to fall apart.

I can't believe, first of all, I've never seen a player like him in my life. And we talked about this last year and he, I'm not breaking any new ground. The Oak is saying, I can't believe how much he handles the ball this year. I don't feel like he handled it this much.

Like he's just, there's possessions where he gets a rebound and he doesn't even give it up to anybody. He just dribbles up and it's like, he's initiated the offense. Like he's magic Johnson or something. Lack of Murr, lack of Murray being around.

I mean, Murray was never had the two man game usually with, you know, it could set in the screen and Murray handling the ball. So I think no Murray has done that a little bit. Yeah. He's, he's always handled the ball a lot,

but he's certainly handled it a lot more since for sure. Yeah. Not like this where it's almost like he's like a point center. And he would do that from time to time last year, but this year he just does everything for them. Now, Embiid was doing a lot close to everything in crunch time too for Philly, but I think the thing that's jumped out to me, and I think we look at the same stuff

like the last five minutes, the shots teams get at crunch time, what they're doing. Like, I just think that last five minutes is so different than the first 43.

Yoko just gets everything. Be clear, I don't look at any of those things. No, no. No, when you're watching basketball. Yeah, I only watch the last five minutes of the game. Let's be perfectly honest now.

I'm half retired. So to me, I'm just flipping around through the last five minutes for sure. Yeah, no, I'm last five minutes of the game. Let's be perfectly honest now. I'm half retired. So to me, I'm just flipping around through the last five minutes for sure. Yeah, no, I'm with you. It's different. It's completely different. The shots that he creates either for himself,

like I was thinking about, I was talking to somebody today, a buddy of mine, and we were talking about, like Golden State said, we're not going to double you. We're just not. We'll single and just kill us. Like,

that's fine. But it almost reminds me of football with my homes where the teams are like, we're just dropping eight back. If you want to rush seven yards of carry, go for it. Go ahead. Take, take,

you can take the seven yards, but we're not letting my homes throw deep. We're just not. Everybody's going to be back with Yoka. Just like, just take your two points. That's where we've gotten with him. Because the moment you double him,

everybody just gets a wide open whatever. And then at the end of the game, and you saw yesterday with the shot that he created for the game-winning three, he just gets everybody incredible shots. Who would be more fun to play with than him? Other than maybe Chris Paul. Well, him or... I mean, Luka's pretty fun to play with, too, in terms

of the types of shots you get, as long as you don't mind him having the ball 95% of the game. You're going to get fed. Yeah, no, Jokic is like definitely pick your poison. I don't really know what the right way to defend him is. I think you have to mix it up and give them different looks. I do think you want to rely on, I think most teams in the playoffs will basically at some point make their non-shooters.

There's not great shooting guys around him. Like, Monte Morris hit one the other night. He's not a bad shooter, but he's not like a knockdown shooter. Aaron Gordon's not like a knockdown shooter from three. Compazzo certainly isn't. Rivers certainly isn't. So I think as the playoffs go, I think you'll see teams will game plan a little bit to let the other guys kind of beat you.

But it'll probably vary from game to game. The other guy who was really tough to beat, obviously, you talked about it a little bit, was Chris Paul in crunch time. Because that's... I mean, their crunch time record's absurd. It's absolutely... I think it's like 21 and three or something.

Did you see that stat? I saw John Schumann on Twitter had it. Where it was like... It was one of the four greatest crunch time stats so far, clutch stats, like in the history of the league, since they've been measuring it in 1986.

It was like, I think the 07 Mavs were the only team that didn't make the finals out of the other ones, but it was, you know, it was on that level. But they're basically 24-3 in crunch time. Yeah, yeah.

It's just like insane. It was 24-3 when I looked last, and now it's like 24. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, it's 20, you and I looked last and I was like 24 and three. I know it's absurd. And it's the type of thing where you just, there's no defense against it. You'd know he's getting to that, that elbow jumper from two and you're just hoping he misses it. And you're going to get like,

he's going to spam four or five of them over the last three minutes. And it's just very, very, yeah. And then if you overhelp, he's going to find someone who's rolling. minutes. And it's just very, very... And then if you overhelp, he's going to find someone who's rolling. I mean, he's just very difficult.

Really a master at that, for sure. They're a frustrating team to play. So it's Phoenix is number one. Golden State in 2015-16, they were 30-4. Dallas in 06-07 was 32-6. The league was really weak that year, so I think that partially explains it. And then Miami07 was 32-6. The league was really weak that year, so I think that partially explains it.

And then Miami 2013, 32-8. That's, to me, really good company. And the other thing, and this is why I don't think Chris has a chance for the MVP. Booker's been so good for them. He's basically been 30 a game for, I don't know, six, seven, eight weeks. But the shots that he's getting for himself when they really need to at the end of games,

like he's getting like the highest end possible two guard shots and he's making them and they just have so many different options. And then defensively, they get stops

and Bridges can guard. I mean, how many guys other than Giannis can guard four positions like Bridges? You know, the list in the entire league is less than 10 or 11.

Giannis can guard all five. He can guard all five, yeah. Super rare. Yeah, so I watched them and I actually am surprised they have the same odds as Golden State. I think they should be

the prohibitive favorite at this point because they're easily going to get the one seed. Every playoff series is going to have to go through them. And they've shown us nothing the entire season.

They got better with Biambo and McGee. They definitely, they're not in that Kaminsky situation that they were in last finals. Those guys can at least, they have six fouls apiece. They can rim run a little. They can protect the rim a little. But I just think they're better. And I think they know, I think it's

another year of playing together. There's familiarity. And I would be, if they don't get injured, I would be really surprised if they didn't win the title because I think they are the best team. Really? I don't know. I mean, I'm not ready to call them the best team. They're definitely in the conversation. I mean, I talked about this the other day,

is the idea that there's a best team and the best team wins is kind of like nonsense to me anyways. I mean, people don't realize how, like there's several teams that have a chance to win a title, and one of them will win, and it doesn't necessarily mean they were... Now, maybe they might have been the team that made their shots. Therefore, they were the best team then, but they're not

necessarily the best team from an evaluation standpoint. But yeah, they're in the conversation. But 2017 Golden State was the best team. They were winning... If we do the season 10 times, they're winning nine and a half of the 10 times. But there's been so many other, like the Lakers, the year they won in the bubble.

They went nuclear from KCP was shooting some ridiculous number. Rondo. Yeah, all of these guys were shooting. They definitely shot outside of their career averages or out of their expectations.

And so, yeah, the best team... I mean, Phoenix and Golden State are definitely head and shoulders above the other teams in the West. But, I don't know. And also, part of it is also just who you match up with. Phoenix may match up better against a specific East opponent,

but worse against another. And it just so happens that that other one advances because of how they match up. There's that. There's that part of it. There's a whole lot of incidental things that can happen that can determine who wins. Phoenix is definitely in the conversation now, for sure. I guess the question

for me... I just can't find a prohibitive favorite. Maybe a favorite, not prohibitive. All right. I'm going to push back and zag on you. I guess my question for me is, is Phoenix better than people realize? Because I actually think they might be like a legitimately great team.

You think like they started out, they started out one and three. So since then, they're 47 and seven. 47 and seven with how deep the league is this year. And, and you have some weird COVID stuff too, obviously all over the place. But to me, 47 and seven is like, that's you're on like a 70 win pace at that point. And the fact that over and over again, anytime they're in a game where it's tight with four minutes left, I feel like they're going to win. It's the first team in a while where I'm just like that. They always win these. Prove to me they're not going to win. They win every time. No, I'm with you there. I mean, I definitely

agree that in a close game, people are sleeping on how good they have been. That is 100% sure. Yeah. They have 10 losses the next best. There are seven games up on the next best team or something like that. I think the one thing that There are seven games up on the next best team or something like that. I think the one thing that people are discounting, though, a little bit is, you know, Paul's played 58 games. Bridges played 58 games. Booker's played 51 of 58 games.

They haven't had a lot of injuries to their key guys. Right. And so that's a part of it. But now you could say that if the same were true for some of these other teams, maybe they would. But in terms of the West, I mean, yeah, they're the best team in the West. How they match up against, I mean,

that series versus Golden State, if we're lucky enough to see one, that'll be a series for the ages. That'll be great. They're a very tough team. I mean, they got two guys who can score from all areas to the court. That's very tough to defend against.

Golden State is, I think, going to settle into the two unless Memphis somehow passes them. But Golden State's looking at playing the winner of the playing tournament, right? Because that'll be the seventh seed. Yeah. That could be, you know, who knows? Talk about variance. That could be this Lakers team

where just LeBron and Davis are in a good groove and it doesn't really matter who the other three guys are. You know, Austin Reeves somehow becomes the shooter they need. Who knows?

I wouldn't love seeing them in a playoff series. I think Golden State would beat them, but I wouldn't, especially when I saw LeBron, if he still wants to be, it could be really great. I wouldn't want to see him

in a playoff series. I don't care who his teammates are. And if Davis could just stay on the floor for two months, I don't know. I'm less worried about the Lakers in a playoff series if I'm those teams, and I would be like a healthy Lakers, whatever. Then I would be like a healthy Clippers.

Well, but that's the next variance team. It's like, I don't know what Clippers team. Like, what if Paul George and Kawhi are back? That seventh seed is scary. If Paul George and Kawhi are back,, that seven seat is George and choir back. You can make the argument there that they're the best team in the NBA, in my opinion. Right.

I mean, especially they add Powell and they, all the pieces they have, all the, all the guys. I mean, I think, look at,

we were talking about wing defenders and how valuable they are. You can go down the list of how many of the Clippers have when healthy. It's a joke. Marcus Morris, Paul George, Kawhi, Co Covington. I mean, there's four right there. I think I'm forgetting one. Batum is another. Batum, five. Yeah. And then there's guys like a step below like Terrence Mann, Norm Powell's not really a great defender, but Norm Powell you can can put in the conversation. They are,

the only thing they're lacking is they don't have like a ball handling, like dominant penetrating point guard who can break down the defense. I guess you could make the argument that

Jackson's that guy, but he's not like getting into the paint at will. I'm just going to tell you right now, you've mortally offended the Clipper fans. How's that?

They will tell you Reggie Jackson is that guy. He's good, man. I mean, he is... I don't think he's not good. I just... He's just not like... He's more from the primary.

He's not breaking down the defense and getting in layups and stuff. Those guys are pretty... Those guards are really where I'm talking about. Like Morantz, guys that finish at the rim, guys who can do... Can operate out of the pick and roll. But yeah, he's...

He was probably one of the better signings. Him and Batum were probably some of the better signings over the last three years that you can think of. Batum was not playing well at all in Charlotte. They picked him up. Batum completely shut down Jalen Brunson last year in the playoffs.

Completely shut him down now. That was something that was devastating to the Mavs' ability to win games. You just basically take away your second-best offensive player because Batum's on him. That's tough to deal with. Golden State could be in a situation where they play the Clippers in round one.

They play Memphis in round two. And Phoenix in round three. That's a fucking gauntlet. And then you go on the other side. I don't know what, let's say Brooklyn's the seven seed. So let's say,

let's say Miami gets the two seed. I mean, the East is so difficult to talk about because it's like Cleveland right now is 35 and they could vary 35 wins. They could very easy, you know, 23 losses. They could get two losses.

Now they're, they're, they've flipped with where Toronto is. So it's like, yeah, if we're to end right easy, you know, 23 losses. They could get two losses. Now they're flipped with where Toronto is. So it's like, yeah, if we're to end right now, I mean, I guess it depends on when KD's coming back, when Simmons will play. But yeah, they could be in the plane

or they could be like the three or four seed. That could happen too. It's just really, really up in the air, in my opinion. There's too few games between those teams. Let's say Brooklyn's the seventh seed and you're the two seed and you could potentially have Brooklyn in round one

and Milwaukee in round two and you haven't even played in the conference finals yet. I think these playoffs are going to be amazing. I really do. I'm really excited for them because even if you look, usually we have one of the two conferences and there's just two shit first

round matchups. We were like, Oh man, this team really, or, Oh, that team's going to get swept. I don't,

the West on paper would have those teams, but not if the Clippers and Lakers can kind of get their shit together. If they both make it in Minnesota, I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent against Minnesota either. I think they, there's a hundred% against Minnesota either I think they 100% against Minnesota they're not in the conversation

for winning a playoff series I don't think no but I think they are in that kind of I could see them being the irrational confidence around one team that wins game one and people are like oh my god they're going to win and then they lose but could at least get a couple of haymakers.

If they were managing to get up to the sixth seed and play like Memphis, I could see that being an interesting series. Or maybe if they played, yeah, I don't know who else they could, the Jazz, if they somehow managed to get. But they're probably not getting up to the sixth seed or the five,

so they're certainly not getting to the five seed. But the question is, will they get out of the play? And the play is going to be deadly. You have those three teams especially. You've got Brooklyn on one side, the Lakers and the Clippers on the other side.

If those are your play-in teams, that's a boom for the NBA right there. And then you have Portland as a 10 seed going, we've been trying to tank for a month. All we did was salary dump. How are we going to play?

And we were trying to get like a top five pick. Yeah, they've been playing surprisingly well of late, relative to where they were at the start of the season. That's for sure. I didn't see it with Simons. That's why it's so tough to give up on some of these guys where all of a sudden Simons looks like this legitimate all-star guy. He was very young when he came into

the NBA. So there's that. People forget how difficult it is. It's so rare to have someone who's under the age of 20 dominate or even be good. He was awful at the start of his career. Let's just be clear. His numbers were, turned the ball over, couldn't

pass, couldn't do that. And now he's turned into a very good player. I didn't see it with him either. I was just like, this guy's... But you have to look at how old he is and how much experience he has.

I'm not sure what his... I forget how old he is, but he was quite young when he came into the NBA. Hal Burton versus Sabonis. Who won that trade quickly? I think Indiana won that trade pretty clearly. I think Sabonis who won that trade quickly I think Indiana won that trade pretty clearly I think Sabonis is

like a good player but for this epoch of basketball doesn't really defend well in space can't shoot a three can't really space out to the three point line it's really tough to survive and have to be a dominant player if you're not like dominant

defensively and you can't space the three-point line. Whereas Halliburton's not like a superstar or anything like that, but he's a very, very efficient player. He's still young. He's still developing. I was pretty high on him coming

into the draft. I think Indiana wins that trade pretty clearly. Plus, they got healed, which I thought they could have moved for another... It's just unclear to me what they're trying to accomplish. Are they looking to be good next year? Are they trying to rebuild? It seems like they're trying to be good next year.

But I don't know what that definition of good means to them. But yeah, I think they clearly, in my opinion, clearly won the trade, but we'll see how it plays out. I love Halbert. Yeah, that's hard. I hated the trade for Sacramento and I actually like Sabonis a lot more than you, but I just, I would not have given up Halbert. And then when you read the Poirier's Tribune piece where he's like, this broke my heart.

I believed in Sacramento. I didn't want to leave. And it's like, you traded the one guy who didn't want to leave Sacramento? What are you doing? There's a potential all-star who likes it in Sacramento? You traded him? Well, the writing was on the wall when they drafted him

and then also drafted Davian Mitchell and paired that with Fox. Three guys all playing kind of the same position or rule. They had to get rid of one of them. But they're trying to get rid of Fox. They just couldn't pull it up. Probably. Yeah, tough on their contract, but yeah.

One more break, and then we're going to quickly talk about crypto and Bitcoin and NFTs. All right. We'll just make this like a short segment, but Bitcoin, how are we feeling? I'm a long view guy. I mean, I think like if you're following what's happening around the world, it's pretty hard not to be bullish on Bitcoin. We talked a little bit about the

self-sovereignty aspect of it, the uncensorability aspect of it. You have governments around the world kind of, I mean, what happened in Canada, I know you follow the Canadian trucker convoy thing. But basically, anyone who donated to that movement is deemed a terrorist at this point in Canada and subject to having their bank account frozen or closed or both. So I think in that world, Bitcoin is pretty bullish. I think also you factor in what's going on in Eastern Ukraine and Russia right now, where these countries are less and less reliant on the US dollar, less and less depending

on the US army to be their police of the world. And so I don't know. Yeah, nothing has changed since last time we talked. It's still bullish. I think the price has gone down a little bit. Say it's maybe down 10% or something like that for taping on a Thursday.

But yeah, I would be looking at Bitcoin closely. I think it's just like dummy insurance, in my opinion. It's just like, you can buy it, you can have like 3% to 5% of your, whatever your portfolio in Bitcoin. And it's just, it's never going to change. You're never going to have to worry about some

law being changed in your... I mean, we're being banned, I suppose. That would be very bad for the price of Bitcoin. And it's just, it's never going to change. You're never going to have to worry about some law being changed in your, I mean, we're being banned, I suppose that would be very bad for the price of Bitcoin. But even if they banned it, like countries that have banned it haven't been able to stop it in some ways, like China banned it, India banned it, the price hasn't really gone down. It'll kind of find a way to go to a jurisdiction where it's appreciated. And I think the first country that really kind of puts it on their balance sheet, I think that'll create a game theory cascade of events to where it becomes more adopted as a form of digital gold, I guess you'd call it. So it seems like it's going to go down more. Is there a point where you would like,

this is the time, jump in? It could go down more. I mean, I think for me, if I saw it in the 30s again, like $31,000, $33,000, $34,000, I would probably be a lot more interested in buying a big portion. I think at these prices, it's kind of like there's a lot of macro things

that play right now in terms of interest rates are going up. Think about Bitcoin as the risk-on asset. So when people want to be risk-on, when the macro environment is good, then Bitcoin will outperform. It's like a hyper, hyper, hyper growth stock. So when the macro picture is good, Bitcoin will go up. It'll go up higher than the macro picture does. NASDAQ, it'll outperform the NASDAQ.

The NASDAQ goes down, it'll go down lower. It just outperforms. It's just hyper volatile in that way. So yeah, I would just be looking for prices to add. You could do dollar cost averaging if you want, or you could just not be a believer in it. That's fine too. I mean, it's not for everybody. But for me, it's a nice way to hedge against global uncertainty. Definitely. What about NFTs? I'm not super... I mean, I think NFTs are at the stage where...

Do you remember when the dot-com phase first happened and you had... Peapod was basically the Instacart before its time. And so Peapod was a growth. But they had all of these pets.com, all of these things that happened back then that were just ahead of its time. I think there was a food... There's also a food delivery service that just ahead of its time. I think there was also a food delivery service that was ahead of its time.

I think NFTs are still very early. What they are now are basically cartoon, emoji, whatever profile pictures. That's really scratching the surface of what an NFT could be. I think later on when people realize that they can be used to accrue ownership and value and royalties like you can own an NFT that allows you to participate in some artist's music and you'll get a share of every time the music generates revenue, you get a piece of that, there will be that, there'll be a real estate aspect of it. But for now, they're just an art and a way to flex online,

a way to show people that you have an NFT. I think they're like the gateway drug to crypto. They're easy to understand. People can... Gateway drug. Yeah, they really are. Because you try to explain Bitcoin to someone who doesn't... To a normie who doesn't know anything about crypto.

And you can just see their eyes just start glossing over like, oh, I don't know. But you explain like, oh, you can buy this NFT and own it. And you're the only person who could own this NFT. And you can prove that you own it. And it's a cartoon that looks like you. People are like, oh yeah, I love that. I want that. And it's interesting how that happens. It's converting a lot of people that you would not expect to be converted. It's interesting. So should I do the original 30 for 30 memo

that I sent that launched 30 for 30? Should I just make that an NFT? You could, or you could do something really dumb like a doodle, which is like drawing and that'll take off too. I mean, it's kind of like the dumbest shit is what takes off. So it doesn't have to be super well thought out. I don't understand it. I honestly, I don't get it.

This is one, NFTs are one of the first things that I'm just like, I don't get it. Well, think about this. Like, so think about, so I believe is one of the NFTs that were one of the first things that I'm just like, I don't get it. Well, think about this. So think about, so I believe in like very specific NFTs. Like I like the original 2017 era NFTs.

Like CryptoPunks came out in 2017. They were free to anyone who wanted them. You could go and mint one. You could have one. And so that to me is like an art project that resonates with me.

And they look like they're avatars. They look like they're people. So it's almost like the first Topps basketball series in 1957. Yeah, they weren't like the first NFT, but they were definitely one of the first NFTs and most certainly the most culturally relevant popular NFTs. So this past weekend on Super Bowl Sunday, someone bought an alien CryptoPunk.

There's only nine aliens in the world. Someone paid $24 million for it. And that thing was given away for free in 2017 to anyone who wanted, who was able to claim it. Someone claimed it. And I believe one of the original holders then sold it to the guy who had it and the guy who sold it for $24 million. And it was a real deal. A lot of people are like, oh, it's fake. It's wash trading. I happen to know it's real because someone approached me to help broker introductions to people who did own aliens.

And so definitely real. Someone definitely paid $24 million for a JPEG. It's pretty insane. But hey, that's kind of the world we're living in. We need NFTs of you on yacht trips around the world.

Just various pictures of you in different locations. Could that be an NFT series? Someone has been taking some of my photos from social media and turning them into NFTs and sending them. Shut up. No, yeah. Someone's been sending me pictures of my dog like, oh, I just finished this picture. So yeah, I guess it could happen. I don't know. There's definitely, there's probably no market for it, but aside from me, but yeah, it could definitely be a, an option for sure.

All right. So you're out, you're out of the NBA. I'm out of the NBA. There might be some ownership potential for you somewhere with something down the road. Who knows? Maybe. Somewhere.

Yeah. You're in on the Bitcoin. You're in on the NFTs. What else? What else is getting you going? That's it? All right. That. Yeah. You're in on the Bitcoin. You're in on the NFTs. What else? What else is getting you going? That's it? That's it. Playing a lot of tennis,

trying to get my kick serve down. That's about it, really. Just living. All right. It was good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Before the playoffs start, you got to come back on.

For sure. 100%. All right. Thanks. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Bob. Thanks to Kyle Creighton, as always, for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Dylan Berkey. Don't forget,

I'm going to be on the Ringer Gambling Show on Friday, talking all-star weekend bets with Joe House and John Jastrzemski, who I just introduced on text recently, and it was probably a mistake because they are two degenerates who love golf and gambling and not in that order, and I've probably a mistake because they are two degenerates who love golf and gambling and not in that order. And, uh, and I've probably lost both of them to each

other. So there you go. I will see you over the weekend. Not sure what the plan is for Sunday yet, but, uh, we'll, we'll have something. So see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.