The Bill Simmons Podcast - Stafford’s HOF Case, Brady Rumors, the Broken Oscars, and Cody Rhodes/WWE Angles With Kevin Clark, Sean Fennessey, and David Shoemaker

Episode Date: February 15, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss some post–Super Bowl narratives, including the Matt Stafford Hall of Fame debate, whether the Bengals will be back in the Super Bowl anytime soon, rumors about Rams head coach Sean McVay stepping away, speculation on Tom Brady's future, and more (1:54). Then Bill talks with Sean Fennessey about the upcoming Oscars, the waning award-show audience, how adding more categories would help the broadcast, their award predictions, and more (45:59). Finally Bill talks with David Shoemaker about news of Cody Rhodes's shocking departure from AEW and speculated return to WWE before Bill and David lay out their idea of what Rhodes's first few months back at the WWE should look like (1:23:46). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin Clark, Sean Fennessey, and David Shoemaker Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Kevin Clark with some Super Bowl leftovers and some football narratives heading into 2022. Talked a tiny bit of Orlando magic at the end. Then Sean fantasy came on to talk about how to fix the Oscars. What are we doing? Could this be the lowest rated Oscars we've ever had? Should we care? Or is this just the new reality? We tried to come up with some new categories and try to fix it. And then last but not least, David Shoemaker from The Ringer, who

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talked about the Knicks for a second. Oscars, wrestling, what more can I do for you? First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 10 o'clock Pacific time on Tuesday. The Super Bowl happened like 36 hours ago. We have reached the stage of people arguing on first take about whether Matthew Stafford is a Hall of Famer or not. The Super Bowl is officially over.

Big arguments. They brought in Mina Khyme. She was saying no. It was going nuts. Kevin Clark is here from The Ringer. He did an excellent job writing on the deadline from the Super Bowl. He's one of our hosts

on The Ringer NFL show. And I'm going to start here, Kevin. What is the dumbest storyline that's going to come out of this Super Bowl that we can immediately debunk right now and try to throw some water on? I mean, the Stafford Hall of Fame thing is a little strange to me.

I saw Nick Wright say this this morning. It can't just be quarterbacks and Aaron Donald, right? Is that the future we want for the Hall of Fame? Like a bunch of guys with big numbers? It's funny because I really like Matthew Stafford. Me too. I went to Detroit three, two years ago,

and I said to Matt, I think you're the forgotten guy because you think about the two generations above him, obviously Eli, Phillip Rivers, Ben, and then above that is... Right. And then above that is obviously Manning and Brady and then below him he was getting

lapped by the Mahomes of the world eventually the Joe Burrows of the world and I said you're in this weird window where you don't you know you don't have any peers really because the NFL didn't know what to do with the spread off and there's a million reasons for it but there was kind of a dead zone of quarterbacks and you're in here putting up a ton of numbers and

so I thought his legacy had been underrated a bit and then he wins was kind of a dead zone of quarterbacks and you're in here putting up a ton of numbers and so i i i thought his legacy uh had been underrated a bit and then he wins a super bowl with essentially one good drive and now all of a sudden we're putting a gold jacket on him i thought that was strange uh the other narrative that i thought was a little bit wait can i check can i chip in on stafford because actually as i was watching first take i started wondering how many quarterbacks are in the hall of fame. Do you know the answer? I don't tell me. What's your guess? Cause I was surprised.

Just guess. Top of your head. 20. Interesting. So I would have said like 48. I had no idea. It's only 27. Okay.

And so I made a, I listed the guys basically by decades, even though guys overlap decades, right? But if you really lay it out and you look at it, it's basically five guys per decade. So you start in the 40s with Otto Graham, Bob Waterfield. Sure. The 50s are Unitas, Van Brocklin, Tittle, Blanda, Lane.

60s are Namath, Tarkenton, Starr, Dawson, Jurgensen. 70s are Staubach, Stabler, Bradshaw, Greasy. 80s are Elway, Marino, Montana, Fouts, Kelly. 90s are Moon, Favre, Young, Aikman. And then we get to the 2000s, which

Peyton Manning, Kurt Warner are in, Tom Brady will be in, Roethlisberger and Brees will be in. And then we get to the 2010s, Rogers, Stafford, Kurt Warner in, Tom Brady will be in, Roethlisberger and Brees will be in. And then we get to the 2010s, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, Eli, Wilson. So if you look at it, it's like four or five per decade. But in the 2010s, we have six. So that's too many. And you get into a huge problem.

No, but you get into a huge problem, which is you can't do this for the quarterback position. There was a huge offensive boom in 2011 onward, right? This is the easiest era ever to play quarterback. Yes. And you can't draw the line and say, we're going to let all these quarterbacks who have great numbers and won one Super Bowl and not do that for receivers.

Every receiver who's coming in right now is setting records for rookies. Justin Jefferson, Jamar Chase. There's going to be a huge boom of receivers who are Hall of Fame eligible, too. And so what do you do? I wrote this five years ago. I remember calling voters. I'm like, what do you do with this?

And you raise the bar. You raise the bar. You don't lower the bar and say, well, Matthew Stafford did this, and he's better than Dan Marino. No, no, no. It is so easy to play quarterback relative to any other era in football. I'm not just talking about the sort of health and safety rule changes. I'm talking about schemes. I'm talking about coaching.

I'm talking about defensive rules, which have been getting, you know, I think people have been complaining about defensive rules since 1978, basically. But it's gotten easier and easier every single year. And so you can't just say. And longevity. Yes. Yes, exactly. Joe Montana was on some newsoo's Day the other day,

and he was just like, he was like, the GOAT debate, the greatest of all time debate, is so different now because, I mean, if Joe Montana were born in 1980, he would have played seven more years. Right.

You have the guys, if you look at the list, like, Stombeck played 11 years. Now he went to the Navy. Otto Graham was nine. You know, Marino was 16, and it felt by the end, it felt like he was 100 years old. Steve Young was 14. He know, Marino was 16 and it felt by the end, it felt like he was a hundred years old.

Steve Young was 14. Yeah. Watch late Dan Marino drives. No one has ever, I mean, he was dealing, but no one has ever looked older on a football field. But you think like when they were playing quarterbacks back then, it wasn't just the head hits. It was the constant guys diving at their legs, right? Marino. I saw a clip, Rodney Harrison, when he took out Trent Green. Did you ever see that clip? I'd forgotten about it. It was the last preseason game and he did the Bernard Pollard dive into his legs, but it was actually worse than Bernard Pollard and just takes him out in the second quarter of a meaningless preseason game. That was happening all the time. So these guys, it was inconceivable, which, which brings me to Stafford. Like right now he's 12th all time.

He's almost has 50,000 passing yards. He's he figured with the longevity thing, he might play six more years. He could play until he's 40. And at that point, he'll be one of the five biggest passing yard guys. And he has a Superbowl. I don't think he's a Hall of Famer now, but I just think there's no way he's not going to be in there. So the new way to figure this out, the days of like Warren Moon making it, I don't think it's over. I think you're going to have to have a Super Bowl,

and you're going to have to have numbers. The more interesting one to me is Eli. What do you do with him? Two Super Bowls. I mean, I guess it comes down to how you view the Hall of Fame. Can you tell the story of football without Eli Manning beating the Patriots twice and being consistently

good over 15 years? Eli had I mean, I think he was like top 30 for passing yards. Trying to find them. But again, that comes down to playing in that era. Yeah, he was ninth top 30 for passing yards. Trying to find them. But again, that comes down to playing in that era. Yeah, he was ninth. He threw 57,000

yards. But the two Super Bowls, you know, Aikman made it. Aikman won three. But basically, everybody who won at least two Super Bowls is like Stabler's in there. Stabler was like, if you look at Stabler's career stats, it's like, name this in there.

Nameth won one Super Bowl. If you look at his stats the last seven years of his career, they're actually really bad. Surprisingly, shockingly bad. So, yeah, I think it goes back to the point you made earlier. Like, if it's a quarterback's league, does it make sense for the hall of fame to shift toward more quarterbacks? It's not fair, but like Ray guy was the member that we argued about whether Ray guy was a hall of famer forever. And it's basically like,

I think I actually put her position. It doesn't matter. No, I missed the right guy debate. You might've been too young. Yeah. It was, he's the best punter.

The first like 35 years of my life. And I was like, how is he not in the hall of fame? He was so much better than everyone else. But he was like, nope, punters can't be in. Are we going to do that with Justin Tucker in like 10 years? Evan McPherson?

It's been one year for Evan McPherson. We can't do the Jamar Chase thing. It's strange. The thing about someone like Eli Manning, and I would extend this, by the way, to Ben Roethlisberger and a couple other Carson Palmer, who's not going to get in the Hall of Fame. He has never ring, so it's not even in the discussion. Like those guys were in the best era ever to play quarterback because they got all the advantages of being young in an era where there was full training camp, almost like 10,000 hour theory.

There were no rules on practice, all that stuff. And then by the time they got old in 2011, they were able to save their bodies because all these new rules had come in. That was the longevity. So they actually, that kind of 2002, 2003, 2004 class, that was the best era maybe ever to come into the league for a quarterback because you got the best of both worlds. You got the training on the front end

and the health and safety on the back end. And so everything was stacked for someone like Eli Manning to have a great career, but I still think two rings you're in. Well, and also that you couldn't hit receivers over the middle after 2005 and then the concussion thing kicks in in 2011. And even that,

I mean, the best play Stafford made in that whole game was that no look past the cup over the middle, which I didn't realize until I got home how crazy of a pass that was. But Cup gets beheaded in 2002. He's knocked unconscious after he in 2002. He's, he's knocked unconscious after he catches that.

There's a book called paper lines. One of the best books in football. Yeah. Clinton. And in it, in it, Raymond Barry says the middle of the field is called the pit because you go in there once in your career and you get your head knocked off and then you

never go there again. And now that's where they live. That's where Brady and Manning and all these guys, they live over the middle of the field because they know that the rules are different. Cooper Cup, if Cooper Cup was born in 1940 like Raymond Berry, everything's different. And so I

think that that is probably the biggest change for defenses is just the fact that the middle of the field is wide open and you can take advantage of it. I mean, even Joe Burrow, one of the things is that we knew Joe Burrow was going to be able to do quick game to neutralize middle of the field is wide open and you can take advantage of it. I mean, even Joe Burrow, one of the things is that, you know, we knew Joe Burrow was going to be able to do quick game to neutralize some of the front because they can throw over the middle of the field. That stuff is wide open.

You know, when the reason they were able to get Aaron Donald in a one-on-one matchups is they walked up a linebacker, basically, that opened up a little bit of the middle of the field. That changed everything. The middle of the field being open has literally changed football. There's one of the first Super Bowls I remember watching was Vikings Raiders. And the Vikings had Sammy White, who was one of the most fun young receivers of the 70s. And he gets basically beheaded, I think by George Atkinson in that game. And if you watch the John Facenda thing of that

game, it's like, Sammy White was knocked out of the game on this hit by George Atkinson and you watch it. And it was like, he should go to jail for 10 years. And that's what the football was like basically until 2010 until that crazy Raven Steelers playoff game when everybody was going to carry it off. Hey, do you remember when James Harrison almost retired for a weekend because he wasn't allowed to hit people anymore? Do you remember that? He was just like, I'm reconsidering my future because you're not allowed to hit people anymore. That was 11 years ago. Well, when you talk about the QBs and how hard this is going to be to figure out, Matt Ryan's eighth in passing guards right now. He did at least win an MVP. At least he won a Super Bowl. The hardest one for me is Rivers.

I actually think Eli probably should be in by whatever standards we have because of those two postseasons and all the yards, right? Even though it's insane to think of him as a Hall of Famer, he probably gets in. Rivers, though, I never felt like Rivers was one of the best

four or five quarterbacks in the league. He never got all the way to the Super Bowl. He lost some big games where he was favorites in the playoffs. He never got there for me, but he's sixth in passing yards right now. He's probably going to make it. I just don't see it.

I think part of the problem with the Stafford debate and Rivers the same way is that if you're just doing quarterbacks, then a lot of the metrics that you normally use, which is all decade team, all pro team, that has to go out the window because there's only one of those. And so, or two, depending, you know.

And so I just, we're getting into a very large gray area with some of these quarterbacks. And that concerns me. I'm not a huge like sanctity of the Hall of Fame guy, but I am, I do like the idea that we can look back and look at the Hall of Fame as a sort of guidepost for what this era was like. Well, the annoying thing is,

I don't trust the Hall of Fame, some of the choices they make anyway. Like Cliff Branch made it the other day over Stanley Morgan and Sal made fun of me because I brought this up, but you just compare their stats. Like Stanley was almost 20 yards per catch for his entire career.

I think he had 700 more yards than Cliff Branch. He played longer. I think he was just as good by any calculation, but it's like they almost don't use the stats. They really default to the old school, well, big games. Cliff Branch was in more big games, but it's like,

well, Stanley Morgan was on the fucking Patriots. We had Steve Grogan and Matt Kravina and Tony Eason as quarterbacks. He was still able to get 20 yards a catch. So in general, I just feel like baseball Hall of Fame has been overanalyzed. Basketball Hall of Fame, when I went over it,

when I did my book and stuff, there was a couple of those. Lately, some weirdos have been getting in like some weird choices that I'm just like, all right,

I guess we're letting everyone in. And then, NFL Hall of Fame is a combination of they're super precious about it, but then the choices are crazy. And it's just like, I never took it that seriously.

Did you? No. And I would also say, remember, it's only one, basically one selector per team. And a lot of it has to do with who's presenting you.

And sometimes guys change their presenter and all that stuff. It's totally different. I'm never, I will probably never have a vote on the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Well, only because the best way to do it.

You can do it. What am I going to go get a job? You can do this. Go cover the Broncos, the Denver Post. Like that, that's the best way to do it. And so I'm probably just going to be an observer. It's a little different when it's that instead of

getting 75% of that vote. I mean, Curtis and I don't want to be mean, but Curtis and I were looking at the list of baseball voters and it was just like, what? This guy's got to vote? It's just a little bit different. And so I think that the fact that it is a closed room, it's a closed loop, changes the conversation. And if you just get and think about this, we have five people in that room in the football Hall of Fame room who are really the conversation's a little bit changed. But I also think they probably have the best process of anybody because it's people who, at least we know, are locked in on the game and not just like, oh, I got this vote 20 years ago and now I just I have this weird vendetta against Barry Bonds. Well, I'll say this about Stafford. In the moment that last drive. Where especially that fourth and one where I was like, oh my God, they're going to run

Sony Michelle into the middle of the line for five and get stuffed and the McPherson is going to kick a field goal and the game's going to be over and then Cup makes the play. But that drive, it was longer than I think I realized as I was watching in the moment because it was so exciting. Stafford was great. You think like

he basically had Cup. It was amazing to watch in person to just like them triple teaming Cup. They're mauling him on like the last seven plays. I think there's probably pass interference on every play. He doesn't want to throw to Skoranek, you know, that no other receiver has. They don't respect the running game.

The screen passes weren't working and it just felt like the Bengals were saying to themselves, if we shut down Cup, we win. And yet Stafford over and over again was making plays. He was really good. Same thing for the end of the Tampa game, right? Tampa comes all the way back.

They get it. They get the tiny thing and he throws an unbelievable pass down the middle to change the game. So I think that matters. Like, and you could say, all right, well,

does that mean Joe Flacco makes it? Cause he had a good post season. No, but I think if you're going to make the Stafford case, terrible team, put up stats anyway, took a big beating. And then when he went to a good team, he won the Super Bowl. So that matters. I mean, I would say he's on his way to going in.

Sure. He needs more. He needs more after this. He probably needs another ring or needs a sustained excellent. Three or four more good seasons. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think, I mean,

the Rams did stack the deck. Cooper Cup is really good. I saw a stat this morning that SportsRadar since 2009 has been tracking, you know, receiver quarterback completions and the 55 completions in the fourth quarter from Stafford to Cup this season are the most they've ever had on record. And so what tends to happen is that late in games stafford and cup just say okay we've done the game plan for three quarters let's just take no more skronic okay let's get skronic out of this equation and it looked like you know i think i heard that um you know he was moving stafford is moving cup outside giving him some even of obj's routes um this was matchups and like this is but this is also why if you're the rams you bet big

on talent is because you get these little matchups and all of is also why, if you're the Rams, you bet big on talent is because you get these little matchups and all of a sudden the Bengals not go all in on talent and all of a sudden it's Eli Apple against Cooper Cup. Guess what happens then? And so I think that there was an advantage that Stafford had. He made the plays. No look pass was awesome, all that stuff. But

the deck was stacked for him. And this wasn't a Joe Burrow situation. Stafford, by the way, had the opportunity to be Joe Burrow in Detroit for a decade. Couldn't do it. We probably should point that out. He didn't get them to the mountaintop. But yeah, Stafford did what he needed to do on Sunday. I'm not going to throw a parade for Stafford.

Yeah, I'm not sending him to the Hall of Fame. But I think we have to be prepared that a few more seasons, he's going to have the resume to get in. All right. I want to talk about other angles, but let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

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Classic BS podcast moment there. Other things that should be debunked coming out of that Super Bowl? I would say the tendency, we do this after every finals, and we have to do this after every Super Bowl. The tendency to say the Bengals are going to bounce right back. Because I would bet a lot of money that Burrow is going to play in another Super Bowl. And Burrow, after the game, said that, you know, we're a young team, like to think we'll be back. I don't know if he said he shouted out the Kurt Warner football life.

What a moment for the Kurt Warner football life. In the postgame, he basically said that. Yeah. He said that Kurt Warner had said in his football life that he didn't feel like he celebrated losing the Super Bowl enough celebrated losing celebrated the accomplishments of a losing Super Bowl team I know the Patriots put up a banner for a losing Super Bowl um but Kurt Warner thinks that he should have done more of that and so Burrow wanted to appreciate that a little bit more but you know listen they're they need to do a minor version of what the Chiefs did last year

which is overhaul their entire offensive line. Like, we live in a post-Andrew Luck world. Part of the problem with Joe Burrow is that he loves contact, and that is not necessarily a good thing. He's okay taking those hits. He's okay holding onto the ball a little longer. Matthew Stafford threw the ball, on average, a half second, had a half second longer to throw

than Burrow did on Sunday. I think it was longer. Wasn't it longer than that? I thought it was like almost a full second. At one point, it was longer. It ended up being, I think, 2-4 to 2-9. By the way, probably because at the end of the game, Stafford was going shotgun up-tempo,

all that stuff, to Cooper Cup. So the average came down. But the depth in the AFC is unbelievable. I am as big a Burrow fan as anybody. I was saying that this was a 9-11 win team before this season. But the depth in the AFC is insane. And the barrier for entry to

be a really good team in the NFL right now is really, really, really high. And the sort of all-in approach that the Rams are going to have, we're going to see that more and more. And so the Bengals have to do what the Chiefs did last year, which is retool their offensive line on the fly. It is not an amazing free agent class. You have really big ticket items like

Tron, Armstead are available. Obviously, the Chiefs made the trade last year. But I think that just the idea that a young team with a good quarterback is going to immediately bounce back. I think that there are some questions there. The Bengals is a franchise

still, they haven't changed. We had Carson Palmer on the pod last week. He's like, the Bengals franchise has not changed. Joe Burrow changed the franchise, but they have not changed. They still have six scouts. They still have some of the same issues that they've always had. So it's up to them. Listen, they spent more in free agency. Kudos to them for giving Trey $160 million.

They've got to fundamentally change for this to be sustainable. Yeah, I don't see them coming back. Now, I say that with a twinge of bitterness because I went against them every round against the spread and they covered all four weeks. But I think they could have lost every week. I think they got real fortunate stuff happen to them,

especially the last three weeks. Like Tannehill, for whatever reason, just completely shits the bed along with the Tennessee coaching weeks. Tannehill, for whatever reason, just completely shits the bed along with the Tennessee coaching staff. For whatever reason. I expect a little more from our guy Ryan. Along with the terrible Tennessee coaching,

especially in that iconic third and one with the two plays. Then the next week, I will always believe till the bitter end that Mahomes was concussed at some point before the second half started that game. It's just, it makes no sense that he was that bad. Okay. It's, it's, I honestly, I want people to study that.

I want to see some incredible 25 minute YouTube thing made by some crazy conspiracy person, just pointing out how bad Mahomes was really from the moment they had first in goal at the end of the first half, all the way through it is for somebody who's as good as he is. It is one of the worst performances we've ever had in any sport in a big game, in my opinion, based on what his talent is. So you have that. And then in this Rams game, look, I know people are like, no, you can't say that about Odell, blah, blah, blah, but I was at the game. Odell was... If Odell had played that whole game, I think

the Rams win by double digits. I don't think the Bengals could have hung with them. What do you think? Odell was their mismatch guy. And you saw how dominant he was in person. He was open. But McVay also... Listen, they could have won that game by two touchdowns

if McVay just had a different approach. That was the worst, statistically the worst running performance in the history of Super Bowls. It was amazing. It was unbelievable.

And so, McVay, after the Patriots Super Bowl, told everybody who would listen that he overthought it. That he watched too much tape

and he didn't do enough game planning he just you know he had seen information overload when it time to do the game planning he had too much in his head there's nothing to suggest that McVay didn't overthink this nothing and you know thank god they went for his sake they went up tempo shotgun spread it out I mean I saw the stat they were like four or five yards wider in their spreads on the last drive. Thank God that all happened for his sake, because otherwise we'd be talking about McVay overthinking another Super Bowl and losing to Zach Taylor, who I don't think...

Zach Taylor is not a very good coach. This was all Joe Burrow, some individual talent. I do think they did some things with the offense. But McVay was bailed out. I don't know if that was just him on the last drive. There was the nugget today that the coaches and McVay said, hey, let's just let Matthew

Stafford and Cooper Cup win this game. They did that. Congratulations. But I don't I would have done that a half hour sooner personally, but I mean, as soon as Odell went out, I would have done that. I would have said, okay, this is a two-man game. So here's and I'm not zagging against the advanced metrics and

just trying to be a dick. I do, like, fundamentally, I understand the concept of, let's try to keep the Bengals' offense off the field. Let's try to control the ball. Let's try to see if we can get this going. Like, I get it. But by the

third quarter, first of all, it was so clear that they weren't going to run the ball. Second of all, you could tell when they were running versus when they were passing, which there was some sort of breach from a trickery standpoint. You just kind of knew where Cooper Cup was lining up, whether they were going to run or pass.

It's bad if I'm sitting in the stands and I'm just going run, pass, run. So I assume the Bengals could do that. But to me, the coaching, the thing to really hammer McVeon was just how uncreative it was. It was just like this old school. Yeah, no, we're going to run it.

We're going to run it. No, now we will pass it. But that's the margin of error talent gives you, is that all they needed was Aaron Donald. I mean, it was funny. I wrote this, and again, I like Sean McVay, but he said before the fourth and one, and by the way, the third and one,

the third and one with Aaron Donald was just as impressive as the fourth and one. But he said that McVay, after the game, said, you're going to hear me mic'd up. I said that Aaron Donald's going to end this ballgame. That's because you have Aaron Donald. It's just like, what a limb to go out on that the best player in

modern defensive history is going to make a play when he's one-on-one with Quinton Spain. And again, part of that's Raheem Morris understanding how to get one-on-one situations. Sean McVay built that staff, so it's not like he was just a passenger in this. But this is what talent affords you. And this is why all week when I would talk to players at radio row, or even before that, you know, we just slow news with

Michael Parsons. They all said talent, talent, talent, like Bengals have no chances of the Rams of the Rams. And you think about upgrading from Terrell Lewis to Vaughn Miller, that was an overpay, but it didn't matter because they knew what they needed to do. And they also needed the Broncos to pick up some of the contract. Overpaying is fine when you know exactly what you need. This team was the biggest bet in history as far as draft capital,

as far as money, all that stuff. As far as just investing billions into the stadium, right? Like this whole thing, this was credit card stuff. And it worked because they knew that, you know, football is one of the margins. And they had so many little margins that were adding up over the Bengals, over the Bucs, over whomever, that having Aaron Donald can solve this.

So McVay being in his own head, it doesn't matter when you have that many advantages. Well, back to the Bengals about whether this was real or not. This was the most skin by their pants team that ever came within five minutes of winning a Super Bowl that I've ever seen in my life. And look, it's the whole point of football. It's why they play the games. I'm not disparaging the Bengals. But I just felt like they weren't that impressive the entire time. And it was kind of amazing what they accomplished. I'm saying that as a compliment, not an insult.

You think like they have two years of Burrow left before they have to really pay him, right? So they have right now the all-time luxury of the rookie QB on that contract. We know they don't like to spend money. We know that they're in a tougher conference going forward where you have figured to make the list of the quarterbacks you want going forward.

I think all four of them are in the AFC. It's Allen, it's Mahomes, it's Herbert, and it's Burrow. And I think about this a lot with Mac Jones. I wouldn't forget about Lamar Jackson as well. He was in that division. Okay. But I'll go with those four first. I don't trust Lamar to the same level. But I think about Mac Jones where I like Mac Jones. Could he have played in that game? Yeah. I think he could have been okay, but we have this quarterback that will never be one of the top four quarterbacks in the conference for as long as there are four guys in there. It's discouraging because this is a quarterback league, but in the NFC, and this is why, like when you hear the Kyle Murray trade rumblings and stuff like that, if I'm in the NFC and you look around and you think like, it could be the king of the

hill here. This is why I'm sure Rogers thinks he could probably play until he's 43, 44. This is probably why Brady, by the way, gun to the head, San Francisco or Miami for Brady. Miami. I think San Francisco is pretty committed to Trey Lance.

If Brady was like, I'll take the minimum. Let me in. Maybe, maybe they do one more year, but I would guess. I don Maybe they do one more year. But I would guess. I don't think he's coming back.

Do you think he's coming back? Like really coming back? Or do you just like, you're just thinking maybe there's a 5% chance he gets bored? Well, Kev, as the guy who's been driving the Brady narrative really this whole year. And has been ahead of the game this whole time. I actually think he's... I think there's some sort of San Francisco-Miami thing. Now, you could tell me it's Miami ownership.

He's running the team, not playing. Do you want to get involved? Oh, you mean if that team comes up for sale? Or Steve Ross, as a way to throw people off the scent of all the crazy shit that happened with him the last thing says I'm selling a minority share to Tom Brady that in five years

the majority will kick in but it's going to be a transition I think it's either that or I think he goes to the Niners for one year and if I had to bet I would say it's 60-40 Niners and 40% Miami. But I think it will be one of those two things.

Joe Montana came on Swim News Day and said when he talks to players, they said Trey Lance isn't ready. Trey Lance isn't ready. We saw nothing last year that thinks he's ready. And also, if you really read that Instagram post carefully, it was a goodbye to Tampa. And this is why I went all in on this the first couple weeks of January. I think he was done in Tampa.

I think guys like LeBron, Brady, whoever, they have the ability to kind of sniff their team. And if they don't totally like the smell, they're out at this point in their career when they're just about winning titles. I think he knew Tampa, that was a wrap. That they were not winning a title in Tampa. So I'm either not playing anymore

or maybe something will happen with San Francisco or maybe I'll be an owner in Miami. But I think it's one of those two things. I really do. So there you go. How about him and the Dolphins? How funny would that be? That was his nemesis for 20 years. And then he goes to the Dolphins?

I listened to a lot of his interviews with Jim Gray and one of them was really funny where he just kind of, he complained about how dark it and cold it gets in New England. He was just like, it gets dark at like 3pm and he really liked being out on the boat is what I'd say. Reading the tea leaves he enjoyed going to practice, putting in a full Tom Brady shift, being there at 5 in the morning and then going, hey, you know what I'd like to do? Go on a boat. So Miami would track there.

Well, Miami is also way closer to his other son who lives in New York with Bridget Moynihan. The case against San Francisco is it's too far away. It's too far away from, you know, even if his family, Giselle, moved out, he's still 3,000 miles away from his other son. He's very committed to being around for everybody. That doesn't mean that he couldn't decide in June 28th, I'm playing again. I've stayed in shape. And he basically does a six-month run in the Niners. Just like, I'm going to live in San Francisco.

You guys stay here or whatever it is. I don't think Trey Lance is ready. I think Tampa Bay needs a quarterback too. And it's like, there's been that Jimmy G rumor about why wouldn't they trade Jimmy G to Tampa

for the rights for Brady and a third round pick? Something like that. You can see it? Yeah, right. Okay. I mean, Brady is in a contract so there probably need to be

some compensation there. But I also, I thought it was weird that he retired. I'm putting that in air quotes so the listener can't see that. When A, I think PFF just came out with his top 100 players. He was ninth. He was the ninth best player in football this year. And he's addicted

to football. And he was good to the bitter end. Yeah, right. It's not like the wheels fell off in the playoffs or anything. He's addicted to football. And also, everything we've heard, I'm sure you've heard this too, was that he knew, this was 10 years ago, he knew he could play to 46 because Tom House, his throwing coach, used to coach all the pitchers,

and Nolan Ryan could throw a fastball until he was 46. You knew that the mechanics could hold up. That was always the theory, is that in baseball, these guys can throw until they're 46. Why couldn't a quarterback when you need much less velocity and much less wear and tear on your arm, right? Yeah. So I thought it was weird that before we even knew

he'd be the ninth best player and the second best quarterback at age 44, I thought it was weird that he would hang it up that early. I think that this is a guy who just wired in a completely different competitive way than everybody else. I mean, everybody else, I think now there's a genre of Joe Burrow stories, and I've told a bunch of them, where it's like, oh my God, Joe Burrow is just different. Brady's that times 100, man.

It's 20 years of that. It's not three years of that. And so I am not discounting anything that Brady would do because he's unlike anybody we've ever seen in this book. I would bet on San Francisco. Okay. I wonder what on San Francisco. Okay. I wonder what...

Now, if you take the Brady we saw last year and switch him with Jimmy Garoppolo last season to do the Niners win the Super Bowl. Yeah. Definitely. I kind of think they do, too. I asked this to Sal on Sunday. Do you think, if you're a Buffalo fan,

do you come away from Sunday night thinking, I can't believe we didn't win the Super Bowl. We had the best team. Yes, but I also feel like that if you're a Chiefs fan too, which is even more alarming because they actually blew the game. Right.

But that I'm blaming Mahomes. I'm going into my off season going, I don't understand. We paid 500'm blaming Mahomes I'm going into my offseason going I don't understand we paid 500 million for Mahomes and he turned into Trey Lance

in the second half of that game the Niners by the way Niners 15-1 on FanDuel to win the title you gonna put a unit down? that's a little high if we're thinking

TB might be might be coming back what other give me some more narratives from the Super Bowl that you think are going to die before we go. The McVay thing is really interesting to me because we already have the Sean Payton thing,

which is every team in the NFL next year is one bad month away from a Sean Payton rumor. Maybe one bad week away from a Sean Payton rumor. And if McVay stepped away, it would be that times 5 million. I don't think... I heard weird rumors about the McVay

situation last week, just as far as that he might retire or whatever, step away. He's coming to the ringer. He's taking over for me. He's coming to the ringer. That's what's going to happen. He's already had a pot. He's coming in. That's why we tested him out last year. He's going to take over for me. I's coming to the ringer. He's already had a pot. He's coming in. That's why we tested him out last year. He's going to take over for me. I'm going to coach

the Rams. We're switching jobs. At least you believe in passing the ball. Fourth quarter, I'm like, let's get it to Cooper Cup. That would be my strategy. Hey, Cooper Cup, that guy was 2,400 yards this season. Let's throw it to him. Running practice and all that stuff would be a nightmare. And I wouldn't be able to do it.

But the actual game management. You feel you could go. Yeah. Well, you just go up to Matt and be like, what do you think? It'd be like DiCaprio and catch me if you can. Right. You just go to him and be like, what do you think we should do here? Matt would be like, well, I think we should move Cooper Cup out.

Or we'll just do a jet sweep on fourth and one Cooper Cup. And I'm like, absolutely. I trust my guys. I trust them. Just say that, and then you get to be like, well, in the post-game press conference, be like, well, you know, I wanted to empower my guys, and they wanted to run the fourth and one. That'd be the easiest thing. The 99% that we don't

see in football is the hard stuff. So, that's it. Oh, by the way, my prediction for the Rams, this would be the funniest outcome of all the outcomes. McVay leaves. The Rams trade two more first-round picks to get Sean Payton. It's the final circle.

They just have no first-round picks for the rest of the 2020s. And Sean Payton takes over for Sean McVay. And that's how this ends. Could happen. Not inconceivable. I'm with you on the Sean Payton thing, though, because this happened with Pat Riley way back when he left the Lakers

he did NBC for a year he was actually pretty good as the studio guy he was I think better than people remember but that whole year he just lingered

over the season where's he going where's he going where's he going where's he going and then that became the blueprint for a lot of these guys

you take the year off and you just become hot by not doing anything. You become the hot guy. That would be Sean Payton. That ties into how bad it can get in Dallas because the taste that everyone has in their mouth after that playoff

game is obviously awful. Mike McCarthy is just a bad coach. I don't know how else you can spin that. The sales job he did to get that job, he admitted that he basically lied about having watched every game, which is a pretty easy thing to do in the job interview. He said that and then he didn't watch

it. The stuff about the analytics is just a lie. He went to PFF, but so do a lot of coaches. He wasn't engaging with those guys. He was actually just pushing back on a lot of their models. I don't know why he's the head coach there. And you think about all the talent in Dallas. Now, I have heard,

someone said to me, this is just purely speculation theater, someone said, the Sean Payton to Dallas thing, even though he's tempted by it, if he had a bunch of options, does he really want telling Jerry Jones what to do? Does he really want to tell Jerry Jones everything he's doing? Does he want Jerry Jones watching

film with him? A couple other people, they basically said half the owners in the league want to tell Jerry Jones everything he's doing? Does he want Jerry Jones watching film with him? A couple other people, you know, they basically said half the owners in the league want to watch film with the owner, with the coach, and half, you know, just like, hey, man, keep me in the loop, but you do you. Sean Payton's more you do you kind of guy. I don't know. Maybe he wants to be in Dallas and win a Super Bowl. He's been there, obviously, the Parcells legacy, all that stuff. But he knows a lot about that organization. I'm not necessarily sure he wants to be in the Jerry Jones experience.

Dallas is like Kim Kardashian. People just can't resist dating them. You just can't resist. You know, there's some landmines. You have Kanye as the crazy ex. There's kids, but it's just like, ah, it's Kim Kardashian. I can't resist. You're taking the call. Here's if I switch places with Sean McVay. Here's what I switch places with Sean McVay. Here's what I learned from the playoffs. The most effective way to run a defense is five defensive linemen with one mysteriously dropping back

every play and the quarterback never knows which one's dropping back. That would just be my strategy every round. I'm going to rush four but you'll never know which four there is and one of them has to be Aaron Donald. If I have that, you can't stop me. Having Aaron Donald, Vaughn Miller,

and Leonard Floyd helps in that regard. Dropping guys back and disguising which four are rushing, that's the secret sauce. That's basically what the Bengals did to the Mahomes, right? They gave Mahomes a concussion just by dropping different defensive backs. I'm letting you own the Mahomes, right? They gave Mahomes a concussion. Just by dropping different defensive backs. I'm letting you

own the Mahomes concussion angle. I'm owning the what the fuck was wrong with Mahomes angle. Give me a better thing than he took a hit. What happened to that guy? And then we just kind of left the game. He was on the all-time hot streak for

three halves that we were like, oh my god, he's like revolutionizing everything I thought this position could be. And then all't, and they could have run the ball and they didn't. I know we make fun of running the ball all the time. They could have run the ball more. Like they just, there were holes there that they didn't take. So that was the Mahomes diagnosis. Well, that's embarrassing.

It shouldn't be that easy to beat the best quarterback like of his generation. It 100% is. Before we go, we have two minutes. Saruti, you want to come on and do two minutes

on the Orlando Magic just quickly Saruti did he pass out from the Matt Stafford Hall of Fame talk oh there he is Saruti

alright so the Orlando Magic you have seven centers you also have Franz Wagner Inspiring Hope you have Jalen Suggs who looks okay

like there's the foundation for something. Is this the most optimistic you guys have been in 10 years? Steve? I would say yes, Kevin. I think the last draft changed everything for the Magic. Because before that, you're like, who's our guy? Jonathan Isaac's hurt.

Boltz is hurt again. And then you get Suggs, and everybody thought Suggs was going to be the guy. And then it ends up becoming Franz, who is, by the way, he's the number two rookie. I mean, I think you can make an argument. I mean, I know you love Mobley. I kind of like the guy with the ball in his hands more. I think there's,

I don't know what this guy can't do in five years. Wow. I like to call him Big Manu. That's something floating in magic Twitter. So the excitement has never been higher. So to go from a year ago to now, I actually, this team is building towards something, man. I'm excited.

Well, you're also at the second worst record in the league. That's true. I'm not worried about that. No, I'm saying it's this rare sweet spot where you have two rookies that you really like, you have cap space, and you're going to get another top four

pick. The only problem, though, and I'll let Kev take over from here, is you mentioned they have 100 centers, and this draft, the top three is all big guys, right? That's the problem. Yeah, but you don't have... Really, the only... If you're blowing this up, you have two guys that you keep. Are you keeping one other guy

on the team, Kevin? As far as what? Like, just... It's Suggs and Wagner. Is there anyone else long-term you care about? No, no, no. That's it. Cerruti and I talk about this all the time. The only way out of this is for either of those, for Franz, Suggs, or Cole Anthony

to develop into a legitimate superstar. Oh, Cole Anthony. I forgot about him. Yeah, three. Yeah, so you got three guys. I was going to say, I was like, I thought you were in position. Okay. No, you have to take Cole. I mean, Cole, he's averaging 17. Been a rough stretch for Cole, though, if we got three guys. I was like, I thought you were in position. Okay. No, you have to take Cole.

I mean, Cole, he's averaging... Been a rough stretch for Cole, though, if we're being honest. I don't know. Yeah, but he's still a keeper. It's fine. Sixth man. Not a starter.

That's fine. Could he be one of the three guards on a good team? Yes. I don't know if he knows that, though. I think he kind of thinks he's one of those irrational confidence guard guys.

He makes me a little bit nervous on a good team. But you keep him around. He's got talent. He's also a culture guy. It's true. He does love Orlando. That's the good thing about those guys, too, he makes me a little bit nervous on a good team. But you keep him around. He's got talent. He's also a culture guy. It's true. He does love Orlando. That's the good thing about those guys, too,

is a lot of those guys, even RJ Hampton, like, those guys seem to like Orlando. They like the team. They like playing with each other. Some of them even played when they were in AAU together. There's, like, a good vibe.

There's good vibes only around the Orlando Magic right now. Well, the thing is... I love these guys. They've been a sneaky free agent destination over the years that I don't think people think of them

that way anymore. Go ahead. Can I rant about this? Starting in 1996 with Horace Grant and then we get Grant Hill and then we get

Tracy McGrady and these guys, I think it was Grant Hill went to Isleworth where all those guys live, that or Winter Park. And you almost got

Tim Duncan. You were almost going to get three of them. And then Greg Popovich called Tim Duncan and called Orlando a cultural wasteland and convinced him to stay in San Antonio. Brother, you live in San Antonio. You're not living in Paris in 1924, okay? That's a separate rant.

That's a separate rant. But at some point, it became a meme that nobody wants to go to Orlando. I think Kyle Kuzma was like, I'd rather be losing in LA than winning in Orlando. It's a bad take. Orlando has been a destination. It's where guys want to play. The franchise

has undersold itself. We should be going out and getting these guys and saying, live on a nice golf course, live in Winter Park, whatever it is. Live in downtown. Downtown is beautiful. That's where I'm from. Downtown is a beautiful place. Tax-free. Tax-free.

And so I don't know how this started, that nobody wants to play in Orlando. The problem is the team sucks. The team has sucked. No, you left out a crucial point. You got the Rashard Lewis thing was a big deal. That was a huge free agent. I know you overpaid for him.

That's the thing. You still got him, though. You thought they overpaid, Bill Simmons. You thought they overpaid. That Simmons. You thought they overpaid. That's fine. But he still went to Orlando. Turkoglu still went to Orlando. Like you still were getting guys.

Turkoglu was a mid-level. Yeah. But you're still getting guys. I'm with you. There's this stigma with Orlando. Like that's not a place for agents to go. And it's actually like, it's totally a place for agents would go.

There's no reason. It's more that they're, it's really the ownership. I mean, if I'm looking reason. It's more that they're sort of the ownership. I mean, if I'm looking at that from afar, I'm like, that's the worst ownership situation probably in the league other than Sacramento.

Well, I worry though too. Like if, if a place like Dallas with Mark Cuban and like all the things, if they can't get free agents, how was Orlando in 2022 going to get free agents that I don't, I just think times have maybe changed on that. Like,

yes, they did get them 10, 20 years ago. I don't know if you could bank on that now. Like, again, they're trying to, I think, stockpile things like,

we want to be the next destination for a disgruntled star. Is it Donovan Mitchell? Is it something like that? They've got some assets, sure. But does the Donovan Mitchells of the world, did that guy want to play in Orlando?

I don't know if it's the same as it was 10, 20 years ago. Well, so that's the thing. He should want to play in Orlando. If you nail this draft pick, I do think the possibility opens up for like, hey, Orlando, why not? They have

a ton of cap space. They have a good young core because this is what happened in 2000 when, I'm telling you, it was amazing in the moment where it was like, wait a second, they're going to get McGrady, Granhill, and Tim Duncan? Orlando? This is the thing that's going to happen, but it was in the mix. All right, that's it for Orlando Magic Corner.

So, Rudy, thank you. Kevin Clark, good to see you as always. Good job during the Super Bowl. And we're going to take a break. See you, buddy. Love it. All right, Sean Fantasy is here. He hosts the Big Picture for us.

He's on the R rewatchables many times, including on Monday, we're going to be doing Kramer versus Kramer with Mallory, which will be an all-time tearjerker as part of Fucked Up Family February on the rewatchables. Brought you on because nobody cares about the Oscars as an institution more than you.

It's been a traumatic few years. It's peaking this year with Oscars that I don't even know how to describe from a category standpoint. It seems like the three hosts they picked were probably the 79th, 80th, and 81st choices. Everyone was passing up, including reportedly Jon Hamm. And I almost wonder, is the Oscars trying to tank? Are they trying to tank for draft picks? What's going on listen to me. And I think I'm ready to accept that I was wrong. My big talking point was try to nominate more films that more people have seen. Historically over the years, when Titanic is up for Best Picture, when Avatar is up for Best Picture, Gladiator, Gravity, Black Panther, the numbers are usually higher on the ratings. Why do I care about the ratings? Because I want Hollywood to make more good movies for adults. And so Gladiator is a middle ground movie that

we don't really get a whole lot of these days. But I was wrong. The Academy doesn't care about that. And also the Academy is not one person. It's right now 9,500 people. And so I think that they have just decided, perhaps wisely, to become the Pulitzer Prize. To say that the only thing that we care about here is acknowledging what we feel as a voting body are the best movies, best performances of the year, bar none. That includes foreign films. That includes low-budget films. That includes films from streamers. That includes studio movies.

If you look at the nominations this year, this is what they feel are the best films. And it's hard for me to argue. A lot of the films that are on their top 10 Best Picture nominees were on my top 10 movies of the year. So in that respect, I think that they have settled on their mission and that's completely fine

because honestly, Bill, the Academy is extremely well positioned financially right now. They have a war chest of cash. And so with the war chest in place, the ABC deal in place to air the show for the next six or seven years, they're just doing what they want to do.

As far as the host goes, that's a different story. I think what has happened to the show in terms of their ability to draw A-list talent is a serious issue. And while Amy Schumer and Regina Hall and Wanda Sykes are not bad picks for hosts, they're not what people are hoping for. Three weeks ago, we were like, are Zendaya and Tom

Holland, the two most exciting young superstars in Hollywood, going to host the Oscars? That was maybe a pipe dream, but that was a conversation that was being had. And now we're at Wanda Sykes. I like Wanda Sykes, but I mean, 81st pick might be even a little bit high for where she lands

on the host of the Academy Awards. So the show itself is in a tough spot. Yeah, this is Bob Hope, Frank Sinatra, Johnny Carson, Billy Crystal, David Letterman, Whoopi Goldberg, like really, really famous, famous people at great points in their career hosting the Oscars

basically for the entire time people cared. I think if you're going to say like, what are the positives? I mean, they did manage to really diversify and make younger the Academy voting thing, right? They grew it by almost 3000 people. And I think a lot of that's reflected in the movies. And by the way, like, you know, we do this all the time on the rewatchables, right? We'll go back on a year and we'll be like, why didn't that movie, why wasn't it a bigger thing? What happened with whatever? Why didn't Boys in the Hood do better?

How did Driving Miss Daisy win an Oscar? And over and over again, we do, how did Ordinary People beat Raging Bull? And it basically always comes back to the answer of, oh, it's just like Old White Academy. And that's what they like. And that was Oscar bait. And that's why they picked it. So that shifted. But I think you've been pushing this forever

about adding categories and how that's a way to make this more fun. And they won't listen. They just want to have the same, basically it's six categories that mean the most, right? It's director, film, and the four acting categories. And then you can, it kind of drops a level, but they should have a popcorn movie. It should be like, what was the best popcorn movie of the year? And this year it would be Spider-Man versus whoever. And I'm sorry, but this goes back to something I've been

writing about back when my fingers worked. Like, am I going to turn the channel when they're, when it's like coming up next, the best popcorn movie or best big budget movie, whatever you want to fucking call it. That's six minutes where I'm watching the Oscars, which is the whole point.

Get us to watch the Oscars. So there's a... One, they attempted to do this. Three years ago, when John Bailey was still the president of the Academy, they tried to introduce the idea of the popular Oscar.

And at least online and within the industry, there was to introduce the idea of the popular Oscar. And at least online and within the industry, there was a lot of outcry. The reason I think there was outcry is because that was not a very cleverly pitched idea. They didn't put it in a position to succeed. To me, the better way to get more people invested is to not just include one more category that's for popular movies. It's to include a bunch more categories. It's to not just include one more category that's for popular movies. It's to include a bunch more categories. It's to have breakthrough performance. It's to have first-time director. It's to have best on-screen pairing.

It's to have the award for the person who had the more than one performance that excelled this year. There's a way to... The number one category to me is basically best stunt, which is basically an opt-in for best live action scene. There are ways to get people excited about what was on screen at the movies throughout the years. And it's not as if these are all sacred cows that the Academy has. The Academy just fused two sound awards this year, sound editing and sound mixing, into one award for best sound. So they change their own rules all the time. It's not like this stuff can't be

flexible. To me, they should be trying to expand the palette of the number of movies that are covered and get people excited about what movies are by rewarding more movies. And it's not really that hard to do. The tricky thing with popular Oscar is they are doing something this year where they are letting people

through the Academy's website vote for what the Twitter's favorite Oscar is. It's idiotic. I hate it. I completely agree. It's really, really stupid. That is not why people tune into the Oscars.

They don't want to know what the public thinks is the most cool movie of the year. The Academy is representative of the people who make movies, so theoretically they know the most about movies. People who are in the Academy do like popcorn movies. They don't hate them.

The problem is there is this wide disparity between what popcorn movies are now and where they were 20 years ago. Spider-Man No Way Home, that maybe isn't people in the Academy's one of their 10 favorite movies,

but Dune was. And Dune in some ways is a popcorn movie. So how can we find more categories where Dune and No Way Home are competing? I think there's a lot of work that can be done, but they're basically trying to use the 2000 model of categories with the 22 version of where the movie industry is. And there's just a dissonance.

People are going to turn on this show and they're going to see a movie like, I don't know, Drive My Car, which I think is an incredible movie, but they're going to be like, I've never heard of that and I'm never going to watch it. It's a three-hour Japanese film about grief. That's a hard sell to the common moviegoer. So I think they're in this really tricky in-between place

and it seems like they're at peace with it, honestly. That's the sense I've gotten. Well, the show is always flawed by how long the show was, which we complained about forever. And how many of the categories I just like, most people just could care less about, right? And the Emmys flipped it the other way.

And the Emmys has basically two different nights, right? And they kind of stack the second night with the awards that the normal person would care about. And I think that would be one of the things I would think about with the Oscars. I would have two separate nights. I would get rid of a lot of the more obscure awards that still matter. They're still count as Oscars. Listen, I wanted the creative arts Emmy awards for 30, 30 short. I didn't care that it wasn't during the actual Emmys. We want to fucking Emmy, you know? And I think that would be the reaction. I think the thing that we always go back to when

we talk about these movie years with the rewatchables is how badly the Oscars capture the year. And it's not just like whether the pick is wrong or whatever, but ideally if you're doing this, and I think this is the case for any award. I think the NBA and sports leagues could do better with this too. You kind of want to capture what happened with the year, right? The NBA has rookie of the year. That's a really important award. It tells you like, oh, that guy was the best rookie that came in. And you think of the year and you think like, oh, 1993, that was the Shaq year. And you go on through this year will be the Evan Mobile year. The fact that they don't have like a rookie of the year award

for the Oscars is just insane. Like you could argue you could have rookie of the year and breakthrough performance. Yeah, I agree. You could could have the popcorn thing whatever you want to call that for the big budget whatever it is that those movies have a different ideal than coda does right coda god bless coda i'm glad i got nominated coda and spider-man have two different objectives they're playing a totally different game yeah spider-man is trying to be an awesome movie. That also makes a ton of money and has good actors in it and the whole thing. Um, and I just think those,

I think the Oscars has to realize like this isn't 1974 anymore. You know, this isn't Chinatown going in. It's Godfather two. And this is just how movies are. It's not, it's people have different objectives. There's different money. And as you said, they're not making gladiator anymore. They tried to do that

with Last Duel this year. And guess what? People don't want to go to the theater to see it. So I think the stuff you mentioned, I think the best stunt is a great idea. That would be so cool. That would be such a fun six, seven minutes. I like the idea of just who had the best year. Yeah. Who's the idea of just who had the best year. Yeah. You know, the MVP of movies like DiCaprio had that year when he had departed and blood diamond. Did anyone top that for, for that year? We talked about, you know, De Niro had years and 95, 96, 97, like De Niro had heat and casino released three weeks apart from each other. And maybe that should be an award, but, um, it just needs to be a complete revamping of how they think about it. And maybe that should be an award, but it just needs to be

a complete revamping of how they think about it. And do you feel remotely optimistic that they'll ever rethink this? I, it will, some of it will be dictated by what the numbers look like after the telecast in March,

because the numbers were at an all-time low last year. There are a variety of reasons for that. We were still, you know, in the throes of the pandemic and there were significantly fewer big-timetime low last year. There are a variety of reasons for that. We were still in the throes of the pandemic and there were significantly fewer big-time films released that year, so it was harder to sell.

But I think also the way that that show was produced told us a lot about how the Academy is thinking about its award show right now, which is they asked Steven Soderbergh to be the producer. I love Steven Soderbergh. He is literally one of my five favorite directors. But I didn't think he produced a very good show.

But he produced a show for Hollywood. He produced a show for people in the industry. His goal was to make that seem like a clubby environment where they were talking to each other about the work that they did. And that didn't bring in more people. It didn't bring in people at all. And if the numbers are beneath last year's show,

I think you're going to sense more panic. I think you're going to sense that panic. I think you're going to sense that they feel like they have to reinvent certain aspects of the show. I don't even think it's about the ratings. I think it's about conversation. But the conversation is still pretty strong. I mean, take it from me.

I talk about the Oscars for four months a year every year. There's a listenership for my conversations about the Academy Awards with Amanda or with you on this show. There is still engagement online with the show. But what about me and my dad at dinner talking about that? Because I don't feel like that was the thing

in the 80s and 90s. We would sit at dinner and be like, Pulp Fiction, Forrest Gump, or Shawshank, who do you think should win? I mean, no disrespect to Dr. Bill, but I don't think the Academy gives a fuck about your dad. You know, I just don't think they care. I think they care about people who are under 50 years old.

And that's why I think the Zendaya and Tom Holland thing would have been a stroke of genius they wouldn't have had to give an award to Spider-Man but they would have acknowledged Spider-Man at the show and that's the other thing they can do they can bring people onto the show as presenters or for you know comic bits or other things that show us

to your point this is the year of movies what about Zendaya and Fez if we can get if we can get Fezco on the Academy Awards then 2022 is a win that's all I'm saying if we can get Fezco

to beat the shit out of Nate on stage that I'm in what was more surprising if Amy Schumer getting hosted or Fez had just been

one of the three hosts I don't know I don't know what would happen how do we get Fez and Sydney Sweeney to host the Oscars bill that's what I want to know

how do we get Sydney Sweeney to host anything could she host a? That's what I want to know. Oh my God. How do we get Sidney Sweeney to host anything? Could she host a Ringer podcast? Looking, so the other thing that sucks about the Oscars is, and I was asking FanDuel, like, why can't we have Oscar? And it's tough because it's voting and there can be shady stuff that goes on. So it's tough. With that said, I wish there was real ways to bet on the Oscars because I think that would be the other way for this to explode.

There are. You can find the odds, right? Right now, Power of the Dog is the favorite now, not just for best picture, but for best way to fall asleep if you can't fall asleep. It's very rude, Bill. Both of those. Power of the Dog is minus 185. Everybody has to pretend they thought it was awesome. Great.

It's a very good movie. It's very well polished. Plus $250, Belfast. I'm getting this on VegasInsider.com, whatever that is. That's my favorite site as well. West Side Story, $701. And then it drops off big time. Coda at $2521, I thought

was interesting because C code is really good. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if code had a little momentum. I think the only thing working against it is it's an Apple TV plus release. And so one, not a ton of people have Apple TV plus, so there's not as much awareness of it in the public. And two, Apple is still early in the Oscar game.

Netflix has still not won an Academy Award despite having made original films for seven or eight years now, and they're still looking for their first. So if Apple gets one after one and a half years in the game, I think that would be a little bit surprising. For weeks, I thought Don't Look Up was the movie that had a really strong chance

because it is so popular. It is one of the most popular movies that Netflix has ever produced. That being said, it's really divisive. People either really like it or really hate it. And so movies like that with the ranked balloting system that the Oscars uses makes it more challenging. Plus they missed on a couple of

key categories. Honestly, this is the power. It's the power of the dogs here. It has 12 nominations. Jane Campion has already been nominated in the past. Almost every actor in this film was nominated for an Academy Award. It just kind of seems like it's going towards Power of the Dog

at the moment. Now, some people don't believe that. I've seen pundits this week say this is a movie that is way too slow and quiet to win the Oscar, but I don't know what's really going to upend it. I'll tell you what has been,

what is making a little bit of noise this week is King Richard because that is a very satisfying movie watching experience. I like King Richard. Could is a very satisfying movie watching experience. I like King Richard. Could be. You never know. Left the theater skipping out.

Me too. It's a very, it's an extremely competent movie. And I mean that as a compliment. That sounds like a dig, but it just kind of gives you everything you want from a movie knowing

it's a satisfying movie. I need to watch Power of the Dog again. I think Power of the Dog would have been better if you're trapped in the theater with it. Which was the case when I saw Licorice Pizza. You're trapped in the theater with it. If I saw a screener of it and I'm not 100% concentrating, maybe you start

drifting off a couple times. I was surprised. You and I love Licorice Pizza. I was surprised. There's many people in my life who are like, I didn't like it. I think it's not it's kind of the opposite of King Richard in that it is kind of formless. It's kind of a series of anecdotes

strung together and so it's a real vibe movie. It's not a movie that is about it's kind of massive and emotionally satisfying conclusions. So it's a little bit offbeat. Is that a nice way of saying it doesn't have a plot? It doesn't really have a plot. It doesn't have a plot.

It's a hang movie with two cool characters. I didn't mind that though. Me too. It's kind of vignettes that move along into different things. No different than like Pulp Fiction. Do you think it's going to be right that PTA is likely to win best original screenplay for a movie that most people would say is like his fourth or fifth best movie. I never like what the makeup Oscar. It's a little bit of a

makeup. It feels like a makeup for like There Will Be Blood or Phantom Threat or one of those. But he's going against and for that Belfast Don't Look Up, King Richard and Worst Person in the World which I think could get momentum. Because I don't feel like a lot of people have and Worst Person in the World, which I think could get momentum. Because I don't feel like a lot of people have seen

Worst Person in the World yet. They're watching it now. Yeah, they're watching it now. That's a movie that's been a fast riser. My number two movie of 2021. I think that's an amazing movie. That's the most inspired I would say the most inspired screenplay. Nomination? Oh, the whole concept of the

movie is really cool. It's like 12 different chapters. It's about a person at a very specific point in their life that I think a lot of people will relate to when they watch it. It does a lot of really neat absurdist tricks in it. It's a really cool movie. I think if people have a chance to check that out soon, they should go see it. Cumberbatch is great in Power of the

Dog. He's really great. And that was my favorite part of that movie. I thought Jesse Plemons was a corpse and I couldn't believe he got nominated. I just, I would never understand that for my entire life. But Cumberbatch was incredible. And I actually thought the kid that was playing off him for most of the movie, I thought that was the one

who was going to get nominated, not Jesse Plemons. They both are nominated. And I think the kid is going to win. Yeah. Cody Smith McPhee is nominated. Yeah. What happens when Cumberbatch upsets Will Smith and Amanda bursts through my garage door like the Kool-Aid man carrying a baby and screaming about how they

robbed Will Smith? I just think they have to rig this for Will Smith. I think this has to be one of the rare times they just have to rig it. Will Smith's divisive though because some people didn't love him as there's a little

I have a couple people in my life who are like, ah, are we sure Will Smith was good in that movie? What's the Will Smith? I thought he was good. What's the movie that Will Smith should have won an Oscar for

if not King Richard in your opinion? I don't think he made it. Bad Boys 2? I mean, well, you know how I feel about Six Degrees of Separation. Oh, yeah.

The category was loaded that year, but I absolutely thought he could have won Best Supporting Actor. And I don't feel like there's a lot of people who could have played that part. I thought he was really good in Pursuit of Happiness. He was. That movie is a little problematic. It's very manipulative. But I think he's really good in it.

I agree. I think you could make the case that that was the one that he should have won for. He talked about how he thought he would never be as good again in a movie as he was in The Pursuit of Happiness. And that kind of tortured him for like 10 years.

And that this movie... What was the one that took... That beat him in that year? It's also one of those where you go back and it's kind of surprising he didn't win. Let me take a look at it.

So that's a 2006 movie. So... That was the Crash Oscars, right? Or was that 2005? I think that's the following year. Oh, Brokeback. That was 06 was Brokeback? That was, no, that was the departed year was the film that won. So this is the year that Forrest Whitaker won for The Last King of Scotland. So the nominees this year were actually Leo for Blood Diamond, Gosling for Half Nelson, Peter O'Toole for Venus, Will Smith for The Pursuit of Happiness. Probably should have been Will Smith. He should have won.

We talked about this because I think when we did The Redeparted, we were talking about Leo's decision to throw his car keys behind Blood Diamond for the Oscars and not The Departed. And I think he's better in The Departed

than he was in Blood Diamond. Yeah, it's weird because the Forrest Whitaker win is kind of a makeup win for not winning in Bird in 1988 or something like that. So it's like you just have this domino effect of acting awards over the years where Al Pacino wins for Scent of a Woman. So who didn't win that year? And so the Oscars are just stuck in this virtuous cycle

that they can't get out of. I have not had a Last King of Scotland conversation in a long time. That's another thing. When we're doing rewatchables and talk about these old Oscars, it's just kind of crazy how long it takes them to see certain movies in the moment. Sometimes you have to watch them a few times to really get it. Casino was a good example, right? We did Casino recently and we were stunned by just how ignored it was.

Yeah. And there were a lot of different reasons for it. But if you went back and you read the reviews, most people didn't like it that much. And it's weird to think that now because that movie is amazing. But in the moment, most people were like, eh. I'm not comparing this movie to Casino, which I think is a masterpiece, but that was going to be my case for Nightmare Alley if it wasn't nominated.

That's the movie that I feel like is little seen that initially was considered a huge bomb because of how it performed at the box office. It was Guillermo del Toro following up an Oscar-winning movie. Yeah. And people were just kind of like, blah. That shouldn't have won for it. Bradley Cooper, Cate Blanchett, I agree,

shouldn't have won for that film. I like this movie more than that movie, and I think that's a movie that over time, more and more people are going to discover and dig because it's so, so well made and so interesting. But it actually did get nominated for Best Picture, which goes to show you that once you're in the club, you can hang around. Even for a film that is considered a flop, Del Toro is back there, which is better than being the Ricardos.

If something like that was nominated, i would have been bummed that was bad i did not see nightmare alley i still have some to watch i got swallowed up by football and basketball i've seen probably half i think it's pretty cool i think you might like it cooper is amazing in it yeah so cooper if we had that category of who had the best year, and it has to be at least two movies, Cooper would have been one of the nominees, right? For sure. In Licorice Pizza, he has the most amazing 15 minutes of any movie I've seen this year. The only one that's a lock to me, and I can't believe Nicole Kidman's favored right now

on Vegas Insider for being the Ricardos. And Kristen Stewart's second for Spencer, which is a movie that I found abhorrent. You liked it. I did. I actually hated that movie. I don't like that director. What was the other one they did?

I didn't like that one either. It's Pablo Lorraine, and he also did Jackie, the Jacqueline Kennedy film. Another insufferable movie. Spencer, I just intensely disliked it and was upset that she got nominated.

I thought Olivia Colman in the last... I think Olivia Colman is the best actress right now. I agree. Point blank. Whatever, however you felt for Streep for that many years when Streep just had the unofficial belt for 20 years.

Yeah, she has the Streep belt right now. No question, right? Every movie she's in is an event now because she's so great. Who's her main contender? I think Jessica Chastain would like to think that she is. And I love Jessica Chastain,

but she's not on. Olivia Colman has great taste. She picks really, really great projects. She's very consistently in movies that are considered the best movies of the year. I think she's really good

in The Lost Daughter for different reasons than some of the other performances she gives too. Way more quiet and weird performance than what she usually does. But that movie is, I mean, you like that movie too. That's a really, really good movie that I wish was nominated for Best Picture too. I thought, I really, really, really liked that movie. And I thought you could have made the case for Maggie Gyllenhaal too for director.

Totally, totally. That's another reason why, do a Best First Feature Oscar. That's like you'd get Maggie Gyllenhaal too for director. Totally. That's another reason why... That movie's really cool. Do a Best First Feature Oscar. That's like you'd get Maggie Gyllenhaal at your ceremony too. Because she obviously made one of the best debuts of the year. So it's a tricky thing. Best Actress is the messiest category. That's the one I have no fear of. Coleman. If Coleman doesn't win that, I'm going to be outraged. She should have

gotten nominated for The Father. I agree. I don't think she did. And so I thought Hopkins... I was texting you and Chris after I watched it. I was like think she did. And so I thought Hopkins, I was texting you and Chris after I watched it. I was like, that movie was amazing. I thought that was the best movie I saw last year.

And I thought Hopkins should have won. And I thought Coleman should have been nominated and probably won. I don't even remember who won for a supporting actor. What's this year's The Father, the movie that's going to sneak up? Because that movie was not on the radar and I don't think people even contemplated

Hopkins winning until it happened. So same studio and same strategy. It's Sony Pictures Classics released The Father. They also released Parallel Mothers which is the new Pedro Almodovar movie that not a lot of people have seen. They released it super late.

It was the latest possible. Exactly. And it only got wide release in February. And it's Penelope Cruz reuniting with Almodovar and they've made some great movies together. And she's at her best when she's in his movies. And she's nominated. And if more and more people start to see this movie over the

next five or six weeks with a wide open best actress race, maybe Penelope Cruz wins a second Oscar. That's the other thing about this category is you've got a bunch of people who've already won before. You've got Nicole Kidman, Cruz, and Coleman who've all won. Chastain and Stewart have not won before, though they both, you know, Chastain's been nominated a few times already. So that movie's not good.

Parallel Mothers? Oh, I was going to say. No, it's not. That's like a late 90s HBO cable cable movie with people wearing makeup it's not great there was there's another surprising best score nomination for parallel mothers 2 which shows that there's support for it beyond just cruise so maybe that could be a surprising win i don't know the other category the other acting categories feel kind of wrapped up to me personally well as long as andrew garfield doesn't win for Zip, Zip, Boom. That's what I call it.

I refuse to even call it by the right name. Did that in the rewatch was yesterday. Zip, Zip, Boom. What does that even mean? Get that movie out of here. What the fuck is that movie? Are we, before we hand the Oscar to either Will Smith or Cumberbatch, are we sure Denzel's not lingering?

People love Denzel. They do. they fucking love that guy and especially when you're voting if it's like I didn't love King Richard I didn't totally get the power of the dog fuck it I'm rooting for Denzel that could be like 3000 votes I would not call joke Joel Cohen's the tragedy of Macbeth a crowd

pleaser um it that is a very dark and stark adaptation of Shakespeare it's hard to win for Shakespeare. People do love Denzel, though. This is probably the most boring opinion of all time. But Denzel is incredible in The Tragedy of Macbeth, as he is in almost every movie. And if you are prone to that kind of film, that kind of austere filmmaking, you probably love that movie. And he's in 80% of the shots in the movie. So I guess it's possible.

It seems very unlikely. He's also not campaigning very hard. That's the other thing that is a little bit unspoken here is how hard are people going to work? You know, Cumberbatch, the biggest release, the biggest trailer over the Super Bowl

was the new Doctor Strange movie. He's the star of the forthcoming Marvel movie that's coming out in May. He's going to be everywhere. He's Benedict Cumberbatch against all odds despite looking like a human platypus

is a massive movie star. And so if we're going to be seeing him for the next 12, 14 weeks maybe there's a chance he gets in there. My predictions

and I'll change these 20 times. Okay, great. I think Coda sneaks in. Best picture? For best picture. Jesus Christ. I love it as the fucking all-time sleeper. Keep your eye on Coda.

That's bold. If it doesn't win, then power the duck. Yeah. Yeah. You got to hedge. You got to hedge on that bet. Best actor is going to be tied if Cumberbatch wins for best

actor then we'll know power the dog's gonna win best for sure for sure Will Smith wins for best actor then I think who knows what best movie I think Will Smith wins I think Coleman wins I have

not seen the penalty cruise movie yet okay so I think that'd be I think it's an outside shot that that wins. That's only in the if-the-father category. Campion's 100% winning. Agree. For best supporting actor,

Cody Smith-McPhee. Yep. Agree. He's a lock. I have no idea who wins best supporting actress, but the thought of just had a baby Amanda watching Kirsten Dunst and Will Smith

winning Oscars on the same night, I don't, while holding her baby, that's just the most heartwarming story I can ever think of. Her three children, Will, Kirsten, and baby Dobbins. She's been breeding with their three kids. I think it's pretty,

pretty secure that Ariana DeBose from West Side Story is going to win. That part, Rita Moreno won for 60 years ago. Ariana DeBose is great

in that movie. You and Zoe should watch West Side Story together. I want to... I've not seen it yet. Everybody said it's really good. It's really good.

I mean, it's Steven Spielberg, so it's kind of like no shit. It's really good. But I I mean, well, it's Steven Spielberg. So it's kind of like no shit. It's really good. But I thought it was really, really great. And I wonder if Zoe would click with it because of the performance aspect. And they did kind of modernize the story a little bit. It's still set in the same time period.

But the way that they shot it, the production design, Tony Kushner wrote the screenplay. It's that hipper is kind of a weird word to use for West Side Story, but it feels more modern. I thought she was unbelievable on a bad SNL episode, Aaron and DuBose. Like, just really, like, charismatic, and it was a bummer that the show wasn't better. All right, so you have Power of the Dog? I have Power of the Dog as Best Picture, yes, which is kind of boring, but, you know, it's a very good film. Best Actor? Will.

Best Actress? I'm going Nicole Kidman. I don't love it, but I think that's where it's going. Oh my God. I know. Why? I think in a soft year,

there's consensus appreciation for her and that she had to transform. And also she's playing a real person and there's always a little bit of a bias where it's playing a real person. Fuck out of here. Best director? I think it has to be Campion.

If it's not Campion, I'll be really surprised. I guess the one outlier on director is maybe Reisuke Hamaguchi, who directed Drive My Car. There's such an overwhelming amount of appreciation for that movie. And that movie is hitting HBO Max

on March 2nd, right before voting starts. So if you see a lot of Twitter activity about Drive My Car in the month of March, maybe Hamaguchi can creep his way into that conversation. And best supporting actor and actress, either Cody Smith-McPhee and Aaron DeBose.

Yeah, yeah. All right. An original screenplay? I think it's going to be Licorice Pizza. If it's the worst person in the world, that's wonderful. If it's any of the other three, I'm going to be aorice pizza. If it's the worst person in the world, that's wonderful. If it's any of the other three, I'm going to be a little bit disappointed.

Okay. All right. Well, when is the Oscars? We have like, what, five weeks, six weeks? Yeah, it's two more years. They're going to do it in 2024 this year, which is really exciting. March 27th is the show.

And I don't know. Are you excited to watch the Oscars still? You're not. This is so disappointing. I'm excited for Will Smith. Okay. That's why I'll watch the Oscars because I want to see if Will Smith wins the Oscar.

And I think that's going to be lots of millions of Americans. Someone needs to claim the Nicholson seat. It's been years now. Now, we've talked about this at Lakers games. Who claims the Nicholson seat. It's been years now. Now, we've talked about this at Lakers games. Who claims the Nicholson seat? You know, Denzel. He's been going through. There's Will Ferrell.

At the Oscars, who's the guy in the front row or the woman in the front row? Why can't it be Nicholson? Well, he doesn't really come out that much anymore. You know, he's in his 80s. He's retired from screen acting. I mean, don't get me wrong.

I'd like to see him. It's Tom Hanks. It's time. Pass it over. Tom and in his 80s. He's retired from screen acting. Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see him. It's Tom Hanks. It's time. Tom and Rita. 15, 20 years. I'm good with that. That's it. Does he bring the same devilish energy that Jack had? Yeah.

Much beloved. He's worked with almost everybody. I think he inherits it. That's solid. He could talk me into Redford. Your mortal enemy, Robert Redford? Yeah, Robert Redford. Wow. Even though he's fucked over all these people over the years,

we could give him the seat as a reward. Yeah. He's kind of the same age as Jack, so I don't know if he's going to slide into that spot anytime soon. I guess it's like, could Denzel be that guy? Could he be the guy who is in the front row pointing and laughing, wearing sunglasses

at every show? Or is it Meryl Streep? Could be Streep. Streep is on the board for sure. People love to talk to Streep when she's in the audience and the host is on stage.

They love to have like a one-on-one with Streep. No, it's Denzel. It should be Denzel and not Tom Hanks. Okay. I think Denzel

has the highest... If you're just like with other actors and actresses and filmmakers being like, you're not going to believe who I met today. Mm-hmm. In the old days, it was Nicholson. Mm-hmm. And I think Denzel now has that seat.

I did the pod with Denzel. I was like the most exciting pod I did in person with probably anybody the last five years other than Charlize Theron, the queen. You know what's so amazing about that too is I was watching an interview with him recently that he did I think with Variety and he barely

said anything. I mean, he barely answered questions and it's fine. No one cares. He's so cool. Who cares? He just goes through it. I got him excited talking about He Got Game and about the Knicks. And that was like, but once you start talking to actors, movies, he doesn't go back. He's not watching movies that he did 20 years

ago. He doesn't care. He's Denzel Washington. Thanks for bringing up the Knicks, Bill. We're on Tibbs Watch. What's going on, man? Help me understand. We're in a lot of pain right now. I actually watched the Knicks lose to OKC yesterday and that handsome young Australian Josh Giddey who just, if he ever finds a big market, it's that he's going to be rivaling Chalamet for whoever. He is a specimen. He's just a handsome guy. He is. He's like if Chalamet became

a point guard. And he's a baller. You see him in those cross-court passes? Holy shit. He's good. He was incredible yesterday. You should have traded Randall for Fox. You should have. Halliburton, who does this Players Tribune thing today about how sad he was to leave Sacramento,

he was completely devastated. He was like, I wanted to make it work at Sacramento. I love Sacramento and you traded me. And if I'm Sacramento, I'm probably keeping the guy who desperately wanted to be in Sacramento, who was probably my best player in the team. So I just thought Fox for Randall

made the most sense. The Randall body language is just appalling. It's just appalling. It's really weird. It's like, it doesn't seem like he's fun to play with anymore. Last year, he was fun to play with. There's weird stuff going on now. We're in the third quarter yesterday of the Thunder game. He looked awesome. He looked like 2021 version of himself, where he was pushing pace, dominating the ball, running the offense, playing with a lot of energy. And then they get down to the fourth quarter,

their lead starts shrinking, they tighten up, and they go into this super slow half-court offense. And they're just really boring, and they suck. It's not a fun team to watch, and also they are miserable in the fourth quarter of games, especially in the last month. And now they're stuck, I guess? But you

have some young guys that you could have easily pivoted into a tanking season, which Tibbs would have never allowed. They have the wrong coach for them. McBride and Grimes are exciting. I need to see more Obi Toppin. Gotta get quickly 30 minutes a game. Obi Toppin, RJ Barrett quickly

you have like 5 young guys if we're gonna be in the lottery just play those guys I don't care but they're just gonna keep the Thunder are trying to lose games and the Knicks just lost a home game to them I mean what the hell is going on and the fans they were really booing at the end too SGA didn't even play in that game Bill what the hell is going

that's terrible anyway it's a pretty sad state of affairs for the Knicks this year my idea with Tibbs is just he has a different team every year. I think that was a smart call. It's a one year and then he moves on to the next team and he's just like when it's a stopgap when you don't really

know what coach... Like Orlando last year, we're like, all right, I guess we'll hire Jamal Mosley. Tibbs comes in for one year and then he moves. He's the NBA defibrillator, right? He just brings you back to life. Gets your players,

teaches them how to play defense, then he moves on to another team. He's like a traveling adjunct professor. It's a great idea. It really could work. Switches colleges. Yeah.

But once everyone knows he's only there for a year, maybe they don't respond as aggressively. You know, they know he's moving on so they're just like, I just got to get myself

a B- and move on to the next class. The problem with the Knicks to me is that they completely overreacted to getting blown out in five games by the Hawks. And they looked at that series and they said, got to keep the band together. And they gave Randall an extension when they didn't need to and doubled down on Derrick Rose, who could barely even stay on the court in a five-game playoff series once they were playing him 30 minutes a game. And it just was bizarre to watch.

Like, I just would not have been my strategy. I think the other thing is that the one thing that they identified is they needed more offense. And unfortunately, they threw the bag at Fournier. I mean, that was a big mistake. You know, you watched him on the Celtics. I left a Nixon answer with Breen.

I don't know who's the guy with Breen. Was it not Clyde last night? It wasn't Clyde. It was somebody else. And he was like, Evan Fournier's clutch. I'm like, what? He's like the least clutch guy. Yeah, they were like, you got to get him the ball at the end of the game. Evan Fournier, clutch again. It's a clutch again.

That's a testimony, though, to how sad their fourth quarter offense is. That they are like, we got to get the ball. We got to force feed Fournier. That's brutal. I'm sorry, Sean. Well, at least you have Zach Wilson. Yeah. At least you have a great, healthy daughter who takes great Instagram posts.

Yeah, she's doing great. The ringer's going all right. Yeah, the ringer's okay. I think she's going well. Yeah. We'll be doing Kramer versus Kramer. We're taking that on Friday. A lot of tears.

Everything's looking up. It's all right, Bill. I'm good. We got liquor that on Friday. A lot of tears. Everything's looking up. It's all right, Bill. I'm good. We got liquorice pizza. Best picture. Come on. Matt Harvey admitted cocaine use in a trial today.

So now you can close the book on that. Good to get some confirmation on something that everyone in New York City knew for five years. Time for healing. All right, Fantasy. Good to see you.

Thanks, Bill. All right. Last but not least, David Shoemaker is here. He is one of the hosts on the excellent Ringer Wrestling Show on the Ringer Podcast Network. He's also running all of our... We have some unbelievable WWE stuff coming

that we've been working on. Shoemaker is spearheading that as well. And he's also running art design for the ring. You're a busy guy. Busy guy. This is my first pro-wrestling trade deadline, though. I feel like this is the first time I've had to skip other work to really prioritize crazy breaking wrestling news.

Right. It's almost like the heart of trade happening. So Cody Rhodes, who was basically, I would say, one of the founding fathers of the AEW, if not the founding father, now leaving AEW, and it seems like he's coming back to WWE. This is an earth-shattering wrestling week,

something that I think a lot of people didn't expect, but we'll explain why we're not totally surprised. But anyway, your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm surprised. It's also, it's all surprising in its way. I mean, I guess it deserves a little bit of background, which is that, I mean, Cody left WWE several years ago, basically just saying he wanted to go walk the earth and explore what

wrestling was like outside of WWE. His father, obviously the legendary dusty roads made his name and career outside of WWE and, and, and wanted to. And Cody, I think, felt a little bit of that call to follow along. And he didn't. You know, there were a number of, quote unquote, founders of AEW. Obviously, Tony Khan is the owner and creative force behind it and and and, you know, the money behind it and everything else.

But Cody and some wrestlers, Kenny Omega, the Young Bucks, these are all they're all by name, at least executive vice presidents when the company started. But it was it was Cody leaving WWE going wrestling the Indies and in Japan Ring of Honor and sort of teaming up there with Omega and the Young Bucks that sort of made wrestling outside of WWE a reality in a way. They had a big pay-per-view show before AEW was a thing that really made it possible financially for everything to take place. Now, Tony Khan could have started his own company

and figured this out without Cody Rhodes potentially, but sort of spiritually, Cody Rhodes is the founder of this movement in a lot of ways. Yeah, and you have AEW and we talked about this the last time we were on talk about AEW versus WWE about AEW, the first one since ECW that was able to, from a ground roots way, challenge the WWE at least a little bit, right? ECW challenged him and like with the attitude error and how violent it was. And they started tapping into something that WWE

was like oh shit and they started copying it AEW was even a bigger challenger AEW tapped into this weird culture war we have in wrestling where we have the WWE style the big guys the old school matches the Hulk Hogan ultimate warrior

kind of blueprint and then there's that separate side, which is like the Dave Meltzer five-star matches in the newsletter and people who revere the steamboat Savage match from WrestleMania three. And that sort of DNA, which Kenny Omega and the young bucks were kind of at the forefront of. And those were the guys that WWE over and over again, either had and didn't push correctly or just ignored completely. And AW is like, we're going to build our whole wrestling thing around

this, around good matches, good storytelling. We're not going to have a hundred people on our, you know, on our roster. We're going to build around, we're going to pick seven to 10 guys. We're going to have young guys. We're going to try to do up and coming people. And it worked, but now the guy who was the spirit of it was leaving well yeah i mean listen since the last time we talked the biggest change is that aew is a million percent legit in terms of competition to wwe now listen they're not going to have their you know wwe has a lot of institutional advantages in terms of everything from ratings to money to everything yeah but yeah but but aew is i mean

if you go on any forum any if you're on twitter you go on reddit i mean aew has as much traction as wwe in terms of you know people chattering about wrestling and and it's a it's a real legitimate thing now aew did go kind of fill in this space that the wwe had sort of abandoned over the years. I mean, it must be said that some of their biggest draws in their brief existence are people like Jon Moxley, formerly Dean Ambrose, obviously CM Punk,

Brian Danielson, Chris Jericho, people that made their names in WWE and elsewhere. But that's not a sign of, of AEW sort of like caving to the establishment or anything like that. I mean, these are there wasn't a wrestling world before. I mean, outside of WWE, really before AEW in the United States, at least. And and, you know, that's where the big stars are going to come from.

And they get a lot of eyeballs on the screen. And CM Punk talking into a microphone is as big would be a biggest draw for WWE as it is for AEW. I mean, but they are they they do, they, they, they, they offer something different and the competition has been really, really evident. Uh, Cody Rhodes for a lot of different reasons, never really, never really had that same top tier feel in AEW. I think there's some backstage reasons for that. There's a lot of different stuff going on, but he was a little bit separate in AEW. And I think that there was some tension or whatever. And for a lot of reasons, he was willing to walk at the end of his deal. And it seems like, well, that's definitely what's happened.

And it seems like he's headed for WWE where, I mean, for, we can talk about it. There's for about a million different reasons. He could conceivably walk, be walking in as a made man. It's the first kind of major wow moment the WWE's had with a signing since when? Well, we're going back years. Well, yeah. I mean, AJ Styles, when he debuted in the Royal Rumble, was a big kind of, you know, holy shit moment. But that wasn't...

That was like five, six years ago. Yeah. And again, that wasn't like some contract heist or anything, you know, that wasn't, there was no glass, there was no forbidden door opening or glass shattering when that happened. I mean, in the Monday night wars era, I guess what, what would be the, the, the parallel Chris Jericho coming over, but even Jericho was a guy who WWE saw a lot of promise in and elevated him a little bit in the transition. I mean, Jericho

is my favorite because it was the greatest setup and then entrance and it tapped into this really cool thing that was happening with wrestling back then where it was like the wrestling fans kind of learning rumors of stuff on the internet and anticipating

people going to the stands hoping something might happen. And in that case, it was like Jericho might show up today. And then it fucking happened. They crushed the entrance. And it's like one of the best two minutes on YouTube. It really is. It's great. It really is.

I guess like Goldberg coming back maybe? Well, yeah, but there was never any surprise with that. I mean mean if you're plugged in at all you knew that goldberg pretty much every time you kind of expected goldberg and he wasn't i mean goldberg you know it has a lot of upside for wwe as as evidenced by the fact that he's still wrestling into his 50s but like he's not right he's not the sort of dude who's just going to go wrestle in you know japan on the regular you know, he's, he's not a, he's not a wrestling lifer. He's a big paycheck guy. You know, he's a, he's a big main event guy.

And, and it's a, it's a little bit, it's, it's, it's a different vibe. Now, Cody Rhodes, it remains to be seen if he shows up in WWE, whether he's going to be a day in day out performer, if he's going to negotiate a more of a, a part-time contract. I mean, really there, there's no way to know, but he's definitely going to, he definitely represents a lot to WWE. I mean, you know, right off the bat that I was saying, I was on, I jumped in the Mac Mania podcast

on the Ringer Wrestling Show earlier today. And I said, you know, there's rumors, there's rumors that Stone Cold Steve Austin might make an in-ring return at WrestleMania this year. Now, who knows if that's true? Who knows? I mean, he's obviously getting up there in years. He was an injury.

I mean, retired because of injury. A lot of people have been making comebacks with all these fancy new medicines they have these days. But I was asking, you know, how much do you think Vince would pay to bring Stone Cold Steve Austin back for WrestleMania to sell a bunch of tickets? I mean, like, if you told me $5 million,

I wouldn't be shocked, right? If you told me $10 million, I would say, check your math, but I still might not be shocked to have an executive vice president of AEW come back with the perception that he, you know, he thought the graphs would be greener and he was wrong. That's probably worth about the same amount to Vince McMahon and the WWE sort of collective ego at this point. Right. So, well, and it hurts the AW too. And AW might've been tailing off a tiny bit just cause I think they made the classic mistake of,

they just started adding too many people and they kind of got away a little bit from what their blueprint was, is we're going to push X amount of people that I think they have a lot of people on the roster now, but, um, but that, well, they've been, they've done a pretty good job of balancing that out. You have a lot of people on the roster now, but, um, but that, well, they've been, they've done a pretty good job of balancing that out. You know, they don't, they, I mean, as far as, as far as that problem goes, they've, they've done a good job

of sort of solving it, which is just to not have their biggest people on TV every week, you know, wrestling week in and week out, you know, but yeah, but you're right. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's like, it's like UFC, you know, or like boxing, whatever. Like these guys don't fight every Monday night, you know. So, I mean, it's it's a you know, they I don't know if they've lost their way. I think that they've sort of found a sort of temporary ceiling and they'll probably blow past it at some point in the not too distant future because that's how these things tend to go. But but yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, Cody, I think it's safe to say that, you know, if it was a contractual, if it was a money issue, whatever else, Cody probably means more to WWE at this moment in time than he did to AEW. And so in that sense, it makes some amount of sense that Cody Rhodes was also doing some extracurricular stuff for Warner Media.

You know, he was one of the judges on the Go Big, and he had a reality show over there and stuff. I mean, I think that's a little bit beside the point. I'm not sure that Turner is going to have that much trouble filling those spots, and I'm not sure that if the money's good enough at WWE, the Rhodes family really cares that much. But, you know, it's a— I think that in the big picture, the biggest thing about it is for wrestling fans like you, like me, like everybody else.

It's exciting that people are starting to go back and forth, not just one direction, because I mean, and it's not just like a WWE Homer side of me either. What was cool about the Monday Night Wars is that you never knew like people be going in different directions and you would know. And people like Jericho, like Jericho was more meaningful to WWE than he had been to WCW. The Radicals, same thing. Eddie Guerrero coming over was immediately more meaningful in WWE, and vice versa, too, right?

I mean, most of the guys that have signed with AEW from WWE are having the time of their lives over there, or getting able to do stuff that they wish they could do at WWE. So it's really interesting if it ends up working both ways. Do you think at least a piece of this was, Tony Khan's been very out there

with a lot of I, I, I, me, me, me stuff with the success of the AEW the last few years. And I was watching it from afar going, hmm, I've been interested to see how that goes for him with him trying to become a character who's grabbing a lot of the, I'm the reason this is going well. And I just, maybe I'm overthinking it,

but Cody jumping back to WWE makes me think like, could that have been Tony Khan related where he's like, look at this fucking guy. Now he's taking credit for everything i mean i think that there's probably a dollar figure that can make anything like that go away right but you're right so i mean so any number of things could have been at play but yeah i mean i think that when when the when aew started it did seem like it was this sort of from an outsider's perspective this consortium between these like four or five wrestlers who

you know really had a lot of ideas and a lot of vision and everything. And Tony Khan, who also just wanted to put him in position to succeed. Yeah. And I think that as, as it's, as it's gone on, yeah, Tony Khan has been more central. Now he's not an onscreen character like Vince McMahon is, or Eric Bischoff was, um, not sure that he, well, who knows? We'll see if he wants to be, it seems like he would be if you really if he wanted to he could already be doing it but certainly in in the you know off screen yeah he's become the central character in aew the press release that they released today they put out today saying you know fond farewell to cody and brandy rhodes uh listed his credit as

ceo president general manager and head of creative all the all the wrestling right that's a lot of titles i mean i will say this if it does seem it does seem like he is the head of creative that he is the main the main story writer the main you know that was not how we started no it's not how we started but if that's true then he deserves all this credit give him 20 more titles because they've been telling stories that fans have been justifiably clamoring for, you know, from WWE for a long time. They treat their audience like they're paying attention and like they're smart and give them lots and lots, give Tony Khan lots and lots of credit for that. But yeah, if it started, if the plan was, this is going to be a big, like, you know, co-op, like a pro wrestling co-op where we all get our vote and we all get our ideas and we all get an opportunity to watch them flourish. That's over, you know, you open your eyes 18 months later and there's just one person in charge, whether or not it's successful. Sure. There's going to be some people that would rather do something else. Well, none of the flip side.

I think the WWE, the biggest issue that, I mean, they've had a bunch of issues the last couple years. Botching the NXT brand, I think I still don't totally get that and not using NXT as to build these young stars that then come in and get pushed in WWE and they just don't.

I'm just watching through my son who now is too cool for wrestling, but he'll be back at like age 19, I feel like. Um, but you know, like somebody like Ricochet, who's like, I can't wait till Ricochet goes in and just completely kicks ass in WWE. And then he comes in and he's just treated like another guy, you know? And so you have that piece, but then the real, the real thing that I think I've struggled with was just like, they haven't catered to the people who just love in a big card. Just give me like two really good wrestling matches. Give me two old school matches with a lot of twists and turns.

And, and I think that's where AEW really took their lunch the last couple of years. AEW was like, this is all we want to give you. WWE was still in this. Oh my God, Brock Lesnar. Now he's in the Royal Rumble. Now he's throwing guys around and, and it's just like these bigger than life kind of Marvel, Marvel characters, which seems like that's what Vince wants at this point. And I, I just, I just disagree. I think you can have both. Well, yeah. With five hours of network broadcasting

every week and all this peacock time beside, yes, you can have both. You know, I mean, I was watching Raw last night with my wife and the 24-7 title segment came through, which is basically just a running comedy bit that goes through Monday Night Raw. And she was laughing and she was like, don't you like this? And I was like, you know what? As like a way to fill time on a three hour show. Yes, it's totally great. You know, I wouldn't necessarily book this into my like one hour broadcast, but yeah, it's, it fits. They have time to do everything. They could, they could do it. And the idea that everything has to be sort of the same. Yeah, you're right. It's, it's, it's ridiculous with all the, with all the time they have. When you look back, I know that like, you know, the, the, the institution of WWE does not care about Savage Steamboat, even a fraction of the amount they care about Hogan Andre, you know, from WrestleMania 3. I think there's a little bit of shoulder shrugging in some quarters up there where they're just like,

yeah, it was good, but why are we asking, why do people keep asking me about this? The point is, you can still put that on the card. You can still give that match 30 minutes, and on a pay-per-view that otherwise would have kind of gotten an eye roll out of most fans at least they'll be saying man you know edge AJ Styles 28 minutes that was the greatest match I've seen this month like that was like a big deal they have the ability to do that and that like they can relinquish some of the ground to AEW right they can say we'll let you have the

smaller guys we'll let you have like the crazy five-star work rate guys. You know, we can, we'll let you have the bloody matches, like whatever, but you can't just relinquish good matches, right? You can't, you can't just relinquish, like we're going to have good professional wrestling on our professional wrestling program because they can do it. You know, they, it's right there. And to say they've given that to AEW, I mean, on Dynamite last week, they had a title match between Hangman Page and Lance Archer. That was everybody in the world knew that Hangman Page was going to win. It was on broadcast television, not a major show. And it was one of the best matches I've seen in forever. They just and they can make a good match out of thin air and they give it time and the tools to really succeed as a good match and that's wwe is not has it doesn't have to copy a model they just have to do what they do you know

it's a it's wrestling just like let let the wrestlers go out there and succeed well they still certainly have enough hours to be able to do that yeah i mean that's the that's the other the biggest issue with wwe just from a following standpoint, is just there's too much. And they knew that when they took the Fox money and they created the Friday show. But I think that really hurt NXT. I just think at some point they had too much product. All right, before we go, let's do it. I think the world is in good hands right now.

Kyle, you might have to turn the camera on. Ooh. Let's book Cody Rhodes' first two months in WWE. Let's figure out his gimmick. Ooh. Let's figure out the conceit. Let's figure out

what we want to do with him. Because we could go in two directions here. We can either go in the direction of I'm better than everybody here. I left, I proved myself and now I'm coming back and I was too good for this place to

begin with where he's just arrogant. He goes villain side, right? Just immediately. Like I'm better than all of you. I just proved it. Um, the only thing that's going to keep me back would be the same politics that

made me left in the first place. He goes that route. Yep. Um, we could also go the I'm back, but do I trust him? Is he a mole from the AEW? Does he really want to beat? We could go that whole route. Or we go the, hey, the WWE used to care about great matches and I'm just here. I'll wrestle anybody

and he basically plants his flag in the, I am now all the good matches roll through me and we are going to reshape this. So those three directions, and maybe there's one I left out, which, which one would you vote for? Well, I'll take them in reverse order. I mean, Cody Rhodes is a really, really good wrestler. He's more of a guy that can, that is really good with it. If his dance partner is going to get it,. If his dance partner is excellent, then they can have a five-star match. But Cody has not traditionally been the sort of guy

that's going to get a five-star match out of wrestling a broom or whatever. Right, he needs a dance partner. But he's really great for the WWE style, which I think actually raises the bar a little bit while he's in WWE. For your second idea, there's probably nothing that would make me happier and make fans freak out more than if he showed up in like a Jacksonville Jaguars t-shirt and was just like,

they kept saying like, he's up here from Florida. What does he do? Like he's the new outsider, but he's coming from AEW. That would be fun. I think that the way to go is probably number one. I think that if you take the Jericho example, the thing that made Jericho work, the thing that really paved the way for him to be champion in WWE and to have the career that he did is that they they put him in. They put him face to face. Well, metaphorically, with the rock, the moment he debuted, right, was just like, we're going to put you opposite our number one guy. Yeah. And it didn't have to be a match, but it was putting them next to each other and saying these guys are on equal footing. I think if it were me, I don't know if I mean, Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar are sort of cordoned off doing their own thing. But if they have to be, well, no, they don't have to be.

But that's I mean, that's a if that's if that's set for WrestleMania, I can deal with that. If it were up to me, I would I would have Cody Rhodes come out and introduce Vince. I mean, and interrupt Vince McMahon, you know, or or better yet say, I can deal with that. If it were up to me, I would have Cody Rhodes come out and introduce Vince McMahon. I mean, and interrupt Vince McMahon, you know, or better yet, say, I mean, interrupt Triple H. We haven't seen him in a while. I don't think Triple H is going to get in the ring, but Cody and Triple H have this sort of ambiguous rivalry as the two guys who are steering different ships at the same time. You know, if Vince or Triple H were out there on the microphone, Cody Rhodes comes back and he's just like, you know, I am the heir to pro wrestling. Not you guys. My dad was the, you know, was a more important wrestler than either of you or whatever. I mean, my dad forgot more about wrestling than you ever knew.

Yeah. And the fans would cheer him. So here's what we should do. No, here's, I have it. Comes out, interrupts Vince McMahon. Comes in,

wearing the Jacksonville Jaguars Lawrence jersey. So immediately laying the smack down. Goes in, demands, grabs the mic from Vince and was like, I'm the best right now. I want to wrestle your best guy tonight.

Reigns comes out. Wrestles Reigns. Beats him. And now Lesnar Rhodes is on. For WrestleMania. For Reigns Rhodes? I think he takes it from Reigns. Yeah.

He takes the title from him Just wins it right away In the span of 15 minutes It's like holy shit this guy just won the WWE title And now it's like Lesnar Has to go against him In Wrestlemania And now it's like is this guy staging a full

Coup d'etat of WWE in 5 minutes I would be in on that I think the practical worry there is that the worst thing you can be in pro wrestling, or at least in WWE, is to look like you're sort of a given, right? To look like Vince McMahon is like co-signed. Vince McMahon is going to make you the main guy

no matter what the fans say. You got to give the fans some input. So I would just let him get out there, get some cheers, you know, shit-talking McMahon, and then you can do anything. I mean, there's a, on Saturdays, the elimination chamber, uh, and, and in that, I mean, that's, they're, they're competing for the title for the WWE title. Uh, Roman Reigns holds the universal title and he's going to fight Brock Lesnar, but Brock Lesnar is

also in the elimination chamber. So the, a lot of people are thinking Brock Lesnar is going to win and it's going to be title versus title at WrestleMania. And it's good, but Brock Lesnar is also in the Elimination Chamber. So a lot of people are thinking Brock Lesnar is going to win and it's going to be title versus title at WrestleMania. But they could have someone like Seth Rollins win in the Elimination Chamber and let Seth be the WWE guy that Cody Rhodes comes and picks

a fight with and have that be the sort of night one main event. By the way, that would be an awesome match. It would be a great match. Remember, WrestleMania is two nights. It's two nights. And main event for that. By the way, that'd be an awesome match. They it would be a great match and they and they have remember WrestleMania is two nights. It's two nights and

they don't WWE doesn't on paper have like it's not like they might have two main events. They don't have like four or five main events. They're shuffling around between these two shows,

right? I mean, they got Ronda Rousey. They got whatever Becky Lynch is going to do. I mean, that's a big thing. If they can get Austin

back, that's a huge draw. They do need to spread it out a little bit. I just figured out what they were going to do as you were talking. God damn it. This is what they're going to do. After I tell you, you're going to be like, oh my God, that's what they're going to do.

Okay, let me know. Comes in the way you set it up. Immediately goes after Randy Orton and was like, you know what? I was here. Randy was here. Two son of wrestling legends.

And one guy got all the breaks. He sucked up to all the right people. He kissed all kinds of ass. And I tried to do things the old fashioned way. I tried to earn my chances. I tried to just do good wrestler, good storytelling. And I couldn't compete with this other guy and all the ways he went around behind the scenes, kissing whatever ass it took. And now he's still there. I had to leave. And now I'm here to take his territory because it was bullshit that he took it from me in the first place.

Randy Orton took my spot. Everything he achieved should have been mine. Does that hold? Yeah. Are you in on that one? Yeah. He worked with Randy Orton as part of Legacy for a little while. He was like a Randy Orton toot. They're kind of in the same draft class around there. But I agree.

I mean, I think that's the right angle. I mean, he's here to take it all back. Declare war on somebody coming out of the gate. Yeah, you can work in a lot of the sort of rumored history between Dusty Rhodes and Vince McMahon. There's all kinds of stuff there.

And I mean, I think Vince has always probably had a soft spot in his heart for Cody Rhodes. Despite the public perception, Vince really did have a soft spot in his heart for Dusty Rhodes. And Cody checks a lot of boxes for the sort of wrestler that Vince McMahon wants. I mean, he's legacy. He's also like an actor. Handsome, strapping guy. Whatever he has to look good at interviews. And and the one I don't know if Vince ever saw him as a main eventer, but now he's walking back in as one.

You know, I mean, there's really no if you if whatever contract he's going to sign puts him in the class of the sort of elite, no pun intended WWE guys. He's probably going to work more dates than Brock Lesnar. Yeah. You know, Vince, Cody Rhodes might be wrestling for the 24-7 title in a month, you know, for all we know. Vince, they might not treat him very well, but generally they have a pretty good track record with their sort of elite tier, you know, part-time talent. And Cody Rhodes is going to walk in the door being one of those guys if he wants to be, you know, so the thing that WWE needs more than anything in the world is more stars, like more, you know, I mean, I was arguing with somebody before about whether or not

Cody Rhodes is a bigger star than Seth Rollins. And I think that sort of proves the point. Like, I don't think that Seth Rollins is anything resembling a household name, despite being like the one of the biggest names in WWE. So Cody Rhodes like walks in the door as a top 10 guy in WWE immediately in a top five guy. If they present them as I was going to ask you inner circle. So it's Lesnar reigns. I think Seth Rollins is in there.

Drew McIntyre sort of floats around Drew McIntyre just because they keep pushing the hell out of them. Yeah. I mean, you can, and then they keep pushing the hell out of him. Yeah. I mean, you can, and then immediately you start going to Bobby Lashley's, you know, there's a,

there's a lot of obviously Big E or the rest of, I mean, the New Day as a group is hugely valuable. Becky Lynch, Ronda Rousey. I don't know if you just said her. I mean, there's,

there's a lot of, there, there are a lot of people who are, who are sort of in that top tier. So he's just in that mix. He is immediately in that mix. And the one they ruined, or they blew, I should say,

is Kofi Kingston. Because I thought they had something with him. You could say the same thing about Big E. I mean, his partner. They have, those guys have tons of upside and tons of fan support. And for what I mean, I don't think that WWE I understand in some way why WWE hit the brakes on both of them. But it was whether or not for whatever their reason was for doing it.

It was it was an institutional failure to not harness the sort of support that they naturally have. I mean, they sell more shirts than anybody. You know, they get a reaction that nobody else gets. You can't turn that into a, you know, main event run, like an ongoing main event level star. I mean, that's a problem. It's a mess. All right, Shoemaker, we can hear you on the Ringer Wrestling Show.

We have a lot of good stuff coming. We've been working together now. What are we, 11 years now? It's been a long time, Bill. I think we're on year 11 together. CM Punk did the pipe bomb in WWE, like a month after you hired me at Grantland. And now he's got gray hair and, you know, is wrestling for another company after a seven year layoff.

Right. So yeah, it's been, it's been a long time. All right. It's good to see you as always. Thanks for coming on. Good to see you, man. All right. That's been a long time. All right. It's good to see you as always. Thanks for coming on. Good to see you, man. All right. That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Sean Fennessey and David Shoemaker and Kevin Clark. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing as always. Thanks to Dylan Burke and Steve Cerruti. Thanks to Cerruti for popping on. I will be back on this feed on Thursday talking some hoops. See you then.