The Bill Simmons Podcast - Stealth Mitchell Trades, KD Advice, Ayton’s Max Potential, and NFL Futures With Joe House

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to react to the Pacers offering Deandre Ayton a max offer sheet (3:24), plus Donovan Mitchell trade ideas including whether the Knicks should go all-in on the All-Star guard (24:19). Then, they go over some NFL futures bets they’re already getting in on, and House closes it out with some predictions for The Open Championship (1:12:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Joe House Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you like listening to this podcast, you'll probably like watching the clips on YouTube as well. You can find it at youtube.com slash Bill Simmons. Six years of podcasts. Rewatchable stuff is on there. Book of basketball stuff as well. All the clips from the newest podcast. Check it out.

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you can check out the Fairway Rolling Podcast. I'll be reacting to the final day on Sunday. Joe House is going to be on later. We're going to talk a whole bunch of basketball stuff on this podcast. A little British Open at the end. Talking about the impact of the lift tour. We talked a little NFL over-unders as well.

The main part of this podcast is the DeAndre extension. Some fake down of a Mitchell trade. Some post some post trade value reactions, a lot of basketball stuff. This is really the last time. I am taking a bunch of weeks off and I'm going to be coming back

probably the third week of August, somewhere in there. Still going to be on the rewatchables because we banked a couple of those. So every Monday on the rewatchables, I will still be popping up on there. In my absence, we did create something a little special for you.

We created a feed. It's called the Bill Simmons Podcast, The Interviews. You can follow it or subscribe to it right now. It goes live next week. And it's basically 120 of the best interviews that I've done over the past six and a half years, which we've had a lot of great guests.

We've had a lot of famous people, had some awesome interviews in person, all kinds of actors, comedians, athletes, A-listers, former presidents. So they're hard to find if you go through the archives, especially if you're coming relatively new to the podcast, if you came the last couple of years and you became a fan, you started listening,

it's hard to go back into the archives and find all this stuff. So we made it super easy for you. It's going to launch next week. We're going to have an accompanying hub and you can just kind of go through. And it's like, oh, I didn't realize he interviewed Michael B. Jordan.

I'm going to go listen to that. He did Michael B. Jordan right after Creed? He had Tom Hanks? He had Kyrie Irving? Yeah, I'm telling you, there's a lot of people in there. Michael B. Jordan right after Creed? Tom Hanks? Kyrie Irving? Yeah. I'm telling you, there's a lot of people in there. So that is live now. It's called the Bill Simmons Podcast, The Interviews.

And you can follow and subscribe to it now. It goes live next week. And we're going to put something tiny on this feed next week, just explaining how to find the hub that you can go onto the internet and you can see all the guests. So very excited about that. I am going to be disappearing and you're not going to miss me because nothing's going on. I mean, what's going to happen?

And I'll tell you this, if there's some massive trade, if there's like a KD trade or something crazy happens, I will emerge from hibernation and I'll do something on this feed. So I promise. I'm going away, but I'm not going to be under a rock. So, you know, you never know with this stuff, especially during the summer,

especially with football and basketball. All right. House is next. First, our friends from Pro Jam. All right. We're taping this. It is 1.22 Pacific time. I thought this was going to be a nice, easy podcast right before my vacation with my buddy Joe House.

Nice and quiet. We're going to talk British Open. I was going to throw some Donovan Mitchell trades at him. And then, of course, because it's the rule of these things, DeAndre does an offer sheet with the Pacers for a max like 133 million. And now it's like a seven hour window where before the offer sheet locks in,

he can be in all these signing trades. So if Kevin Durant's ever going to Phoenix, it's going to happen in the next seven hours. So we're on the clock. We decided to proceed with the podcast anyway. House, I might have to do a part two drunk house might have to be invited back because i know i know i know you're going out to dinner and then drunk house will show up at about nine o'clock um it's the most fun if he

just goes to indiana and phoenix gets taken off the durant table because house what i really want is for durant to just go back to brooklyn and for him not to be traded. That's what I want. What do you want, House? You know that you and I are in lockstep on this front. And for a whole bunch of reasons that actually run in favor of KD himself and Kyrie himself. It's not often the case that you and I are looking out for Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving and trying to tell them what's in their own best interest. But what's in their own best interest is going back to Brooklyn and playing competitive basketball in the Eastern Conference

with their good brother Ben Simmons along for the ride. That would be the best case scenario from my perspective this season. Yeah, Van Halen had a song during the Sammy Hagar era, which I know you didn't like that much, called Finish What You Started. It was called Finish What Yes Started, YA. And it was like, come on, baby, finish what you started. That's how I feel about KD.

Kyrie, I've given up on. I've given up on him completely. I have no expectations of him at all. And I assume that it's just going to go badly for him. And then they'll end up buying him out and I'll sign with the Lakers in February would be my bet because it took everybody two weeks to realize that there was no chance he was getting traded to the Lakers so that the Nets could take $11 million more of Russell Westbrook. That was like 50 million plus in luxury tax, just so they get one pick. Nobody's doing that. So the KD piece of it, all of these trades

are like, alright, here's everything we have for KD and now KD's in a worse situation than he'd be in Brooklyn. I also think big picture, the more I listen to people talk about it, the more I think about it, big picture, I just think there's no good outcome for him going

anywhere else. The way he's going to be remembered as a great basketball player, I think we'll just have a little mark next to it. And he can still avoid this. Lots of guys have been unhappy, wanted to be traded, and then stayed, most famously Kobe, summer of 2007. There's been a lot of other examples. It's the best for him if he just stays and he kicks ass with this Brooklyn team. And I still love Durant and I'm still in on Durant.

He had a wonderful subtweet yesterday about legacy where he tweeted out to all of America. What did you do today to add to your legacy? And Marsha let him know that Marsha loaded up the dishwasher and Kate KD was very complimentary of Marsha building on her legacy. So KD really does not withstanding all that tongue in cheek, which is just marvelous. I mean, yeah, I like him going right at it. He's the he's the best. He really is the easy sniper. But but, you know, he knows what's at stake.

And really, his his legacy would be best enhanced by a successful Brooklyn season. Right. Figuring out... The thing is, you don't need to figure out your team in mid-July. We talk about this all the time. You don't need to fill out the entire roster. You don't need to make out all your trades yet. You can wait until August, September, all the way through to February.

And just because there's not a Kyrie deal right now, doesn't mean there's not a Kyrie deal four months from now. By the way, if Kyrie comes to camp and he's awesome. Right. And he drops 48 on somebody, maybe that opens up the trade market for him. What if the Knicks don't get Donovan Mitchell? Who knows? You just don't know what the options are.

And KD knows that. Kyrie knows that. Kyrie knows that his best option to grab more leverage in this situation, including leverage if ultimately what he wants is a longer-term deal from Brooklyn, his best way to grab that is by being a good soldier for two months. It's not even that much time and energy. Can I push back? Go ahead. You said Kyrie knows that. You don't think he understands basic leverage, how it operates?

What's your evidence that he understands any piece of this in a logical way that's not through some distorted Kyrie prism of the events. I don't know. I know how I would look at it if I was him and I was like, man, I played the sign and trade card. Not a lot of interest. Time to look in the mirror. Nobody wants to trade for me. I'm on an expiring deal, 36 million. I can put up 25 to 30 points in any NBA game I want. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's time to look at the mirror just a tiny bit. That's how you and I would look at it. No, he's not looking at it that way.

He's not doing it that way. Well, that's what you said. Kyrie knows this. I don't. What does he know? I think he knows that the best way to have the most options is to play good. And I mean, that's always the thing that always gets lost, it seems with him, is that he forgets that he's a basketball player.

He forgets sometimes that he's getting the 40-some million dollars that he got last year was to play basketball. Yeah. To be part of a team. To be reliable. I don't know it's not hard to be a good teammate to not drive away

other teammates to not drive away guys that were previously thought to be friends like James Harden did you read the Dragic thing I have not read it yet

Dragic first of all I love nothing more than translated interviews it's a it's always like it's a transit they can't get it 100% interviews. It's always like, it's a transit. They can't get it 100% right,

but it's always like some sort of dagger. So Dragic said, he talked about how he played, he signed with the Bulls and how he went, he almost did it last year, but he went to the Nets instead. And he said, he said he played with KD and Kyrie and added, it was quite hard because it wasn't about the team, but more about individual performances.

Now he said this in another language. Goran Dragic, I think pretty well-liked teammate in Phoenix. I guess he had a little trouble in Phoenix that last year, but then Miami, I think he was really well-valued. But that's the part with KD that I don't think he was really well-valued. But that's the part with KD that I don't think he totally sees. And now I don't want to talk about the psychology of players too much

because Sheriff Draymond Green might come in in the new media police car. Really? Wait, you're talking, oh, here's a guy I didn't play basketball talking about. Well, that's unfortunately my job. I'm sorry, Sheriff Draymond. But I don't think KD sees the part where they went to Brooklyn and they created this culture there. And he then became responsible for the culture. Once you're deciding who's on the team, who the coach is and all that stuff, then that's the culture you created. And if somebody like Gordon Dragic looks at it and says, it's all about the individuals, which from afar, us knowing nothing did seem like it was a little bit about the individuals. Did seem like it. Then I want KD to look in the mirror too and be like, you know

what? I'm one of the great players we've ever had. I'm one of the great scoring forwards. I am probably the greatest scoring forward. And this is year 16 for me and I want to kick some ass now he might not think that way he might just be like I just want a ball all I care about is playing basketball I don't care about this other stuff he might also though on the other hand he might care about all this we don't have any evidence suggesting that he's not

thinking this way that he's not taking responsibility he's not out making public statements about it one way or the other the only public statement that he's made, and actually he didn't make the statement, it was his agent, was that he asked the organization to explore trading him. And we've

all tried to fill in the blanks as to what might motivate KD to seek that outcome. And we don't have any satisfactory answers because nobody's asked, we haven't had the opportunity to ask KD and have KD explain it to us.

And because most of the people that I think cover basketball, talk about basketball, whatever, they don't think about like the previous, like basically the 20th century, all the things that happened. We've had a lot of unhappy superstars. Will got traded twice century, all the things that happened. We've had a lot of unhappy superstars. Will

got traded twice and was unhappy pretty much every other year for his entire career. Magic Johnson, he asked to be traded and they fired the coach the next day in 1981, his third season in the league. They fired Paul Westhead, but

he was so miserable, he literally asked to be traded in a postgame press conference to a bunch of shocked reporters. Larry Bird, near the end of his career at the Celtics was super unhappy. And there was a lot of, he didn't like the offense he was in and, and that got super dicey. You just go through Hakeem Olajuwon. He almost got traded. We've had unhappy players. It's really hard to find the right Kobe. You could go on and on. So it's not about that.

But to me, for him, I think he has to realize that the best situation is actually in Brooklyn. Now, maybe he looked under the Ben Simmons hood and didn't like what he saw. And that's a piece of this. To me, that is the variable that I don't know. If he saw something with the Ben Simmons piece that he's he's like oh man i gotta deal with this guy next season get me out of here i think and you uh covered this with rossillo a little bit um over the the

podcast you know just just a whole bunch of them lately the the one of the possibilities and the one that makes the most sense to me is the unhappiness has to do with what he might perceive as a lack of conviction by ownership by the end of front office that's management and their lack of conviction is the the source because kd uh maybe his expectation was that the nets were going to sign kairrie to the three-year deal that Kyrie was wanting. And that would have been the vote of confidence, the support that KD was looking for, desirous of. That, look, we know that last season went the sideways way that it did. But Ben Simmons, we got Harden out. Maybe the timing of

getting james harden out of here and bringing simmons in that might really work this is the foundation kd believes that foundation and then management didn't extend kairi in a manner that kd expected and maybe ultimately that is the goal right maybe it's what you said in the podcast he goes into josiah's office with his agent and they say, give us the vote of confidence, extend Kyrie, let us go out and do our thing. Yeah, but Katie's a smart guy, I think. Okay, okay.

He's got to understand the Kyrie extension thing. I can't imagine he doesn't. You've got to just look at that, at least somewhat objectively, and understand that this is now a guy who cannot be paid for more than one year at a time. Not to sound like Stephen A. But I think until he proves otherwise,

I don't understand how you would think it's a good business decision to give him a multi-year contract in a sport that has a salary cap that if you screw up with a contract it is like having a torn acl on your roster basically he believes in the talent that much we know for sure and we don't know enough about their relationship yeah to say conclusively one way the other how kd views a commitment by kairi we know how we view it, but we don't know how KD views it.

Is it possible this was like throwing a stone in the ocean, trying to see what the ripple would be, but ultimately knowing I'm probably not getting traded? Or do you think KD genuinely thinks he's going to be on another team in October? The former. I think it's throwing a pebble, maybe a smaller body of kind of seeing what's out there yeah because he wants big ripples and he got big ripples um but you know he tested it so early in free agency it maximized the the opportunity set for the nets so that you know all assets were available he could see the the entire league and take inventory

of who was going to bring what to the table. But I would say it backfired in some ways because we didn't even get momentum on a trade. I mean, this Miami, I thought Mahoney and Varey on the Ring of Rambia show, they were funny talking about it yesterday, about how

Hero Robinson in a couple picks is just the generic offer for everybody. I like Tyler Hero, but that can't be the foundation of a deal for a top 20 player. Not for Kevin Durant.

And even Mitchell, and we'll do Mitchell trades in a second, but even Mitchell, that can't be the foundation. Donovan Mitchell trade. I mean, he's basically 26 points a game. He's just an elite offensive player. You're not getting him for a bunch of Miami picks that Miami is always good. What are those picks going to do for you? It's like you're getting picks from a bad team. But yeah, with the KD thing, there's just no trade. The only one just in a vacuum

that works for everybody is if Ingram and Picks were on the table and he wanted to go to New Orleans and really try to win a title there. And I just don't, I'm just going to do that. Why not just stay in Brooklyn?

Hope it works out. The Aiton piece of this, just quickly. So Phoenix decided he's not a max guy a year ago. And they decide not to do some sort of deal with him.

Unquestionably, it was a mistake for how it played out during the season because I do think there was some chemistry, tension stuff, and, you know, look at the result. I'm a results guy, House.

The season and the postseason. Yeah. Both. Season and postseason obviously backfired a little bit. Look, you're a max guy if one of the 30 teams in the league

thinks you're a max guy. So I guess he's a max guy. It's a little weird to think of him as a max guy. But on the other hand, when you make these lists, like I did my trade value list, you know, he's on there.

He's one of the best 50 players in the league. There's 30 teams. Everybody's got to have best 50 players in the league. There's 30 teams. Everybody's got to have one or two max guys. If you're Indiana, I kind of like it. They got the number one pick in the draft. He's 23.

He's played in big games. He's, worst case scenario, a very above average center. Best case scenario, a potential all-star, maybe even a 13-mile NBA guy. We've seen him guard people like Jokic,

I think, pretty well. He didn't guard Giannis that well in the finals, but nobody does. But now they have Halliburton. They have this young team, Duarte. They got Matherin,

Aiton. They'll be able to spin Miles Turner for something. I don't know. I like it. For Indiana, I really like it. Now, I wonder if they're going to end up with him. Because everyone I'm talking to seems to think Phoenix is going to say, fuck you and match it.

Well, that's fine. It's a worthwhile gamble for the Pacers no matter what. and i think the narrative that you just um walked us through in terms of what the pacers might be up to and and their goals i mean he's he's 23 years old ayton right he's about to turn 24 i mean these are the they got they have a pretty young team they really could you know rebuild on the fly a little bit here yeah um and and you know they've cleaned up their their contract situation getting brogdon out team. They really could rebuild on the fly a little bit here. And they've cleaned up their contract situation. Getting Brogdon out

of the picture was helpful to them. The Brogdon thing makes more sense if they knew they were going to do this Aiton thing. I just wonder why they didn't do it a few days ago. They cleared out some cap space for that. Now Aiton comes in. And Brogdon,

I think was unhappy that the people I've talked to, you know, Rick, Rick Carlisle is running the team, I guess. Yeah. Even though Pritchard's involved, I think Rick's calling the shots there.

And from what I heard, um, I, I just think if I'm rooting for a team and the coach is also running the team, the results are never good. Steve Kerr said this recently. He was on Zach's podcast. Yeah.

And he had a whole thing about when they got the Russell asset for Durant, they had to basically shank Iguodala and send him to Memphis. And Kerr didn't want to do it. And he's like, if I was the GM, I wouldn't have done it. I was loyal to Andre. I just wouldn't have done it. And it was the right thing to do because it led to Russell, led to Wiggins, which led to them winning their fourth title. This is why coaches and GMs shouldn't be the same person.

There is not a long track record of successful coach GMs. It's the opposite. All you have is a bunch of failures. I mean, the Stan Van Gundy will forever go down. Thibodeau. Tibbs as well, right. It's over and over again. It's been the case. So anyway, I think that the Brogdon thing, they bring in Hal Burton.

Brogdon probably wasn't that happy anyway. He wanted to be in a good team. And Carlisle's the coach. And it's like, eh. And all of a sudden, Brogdon probably wasn't that happy anyway. He wanted to be on a good team. And Carlisle's the coach. And all of a sudden, Brogdon's got to play. That's the key. And maybe the Celtics situation will be better for him. More protective. He doesn't need to

feel like whatever the injury, the repeating injury thing is, maybe he'll have better luck in Boston. House, I still like Aiton. It's a controversial take. I still like him. Is it controversial? I'm not scared by the 133. If it was four for... So let's

play a game. If it's four for 100, do you love it? I love it. I absolutely love it. How about four for 110? I still love it. I think I still love it too. He's good. Four for 115, now I blinked. But I still love it I think I still love it too He's good 4 for 115 now I blinked But I still like it

4-120 I still like it 4-133 now I'm like ooh my sphincter Tightened a tiny second but I'm still Okay with it It's just the premium It's just the Pacers premium It's the Indiana rebuilding team

They're going to go all in. There's no reason to like walk up to it. Why try and save, you know, 10% over the life of the deal or whatever. Go all in. Go get the guy. That's it. It's a free agent tax. It's a 20%.

They got the number one pick in the 2018 draft. We think unless Phoenix matches it. All right, we'll take a break. We're going to make up some Mitchell trades. Hey, got some big news. FanDuel has an all new mobile gaming app. It's called FanDuel FaceOff. FanDuel FaceOff, where you compete in quick fun games

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So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. All right. So I did this already in the pod, but then we have a lot of Intel. We have also had a lot of people throwing out Mitchell trades and being the best person in the history of fake NBA trades, which I think I am. I think I'm the fake trade NBA goat. So modest.

I am the Picasso of the trade machine. I think we've all established that. The meister of the trade machine. I've certainly made the most fake trades. I'd put my track record of fake trades against anyone else. And people are doing these fake trades with Mitchell that I just don't get. And one of the things I don't get is if you're Utah

and you clearly you clearly, what did you, what did you settle on for Wamba Yama? Uh, nada for Wamba Yama. Oh, I, I love it.

Right. Wait, wipe your ass for Wemby. Like whatever. Wasted for Wemby. Wasted for Wemby. That makes sense to me. Whatever you want to call it.

So if Utah is going to trade Mitchell, at least a piece of this is we're going to be terrible this year. And we're going to have a fire sale for Beverly and all of our role guys, and we're just going to get rid of them. And then the way Danny Ainge thinks is, you know, if I'm going to get a ton of picks, I want to take

advantage of the weaker teams, the more incompetent teams. So, you know, the Knicks, obviously, and the Knicks, I think, are the favorites to get Mitchell. I don't totally understand it from their perspective why they think Brunson and Mitchell

would be the way to go. I don't. All the Knicks fans in my life are like, there's no way we can give up RJ Barrett, which I think is hilarious. That is hilarious. But at the same time, I get it.

Like if you can keep those three together. So the consensus seems to be some version of like either Fournier or Rose, Cam Reddish, Obi Toppin, maybe McBride, who was really good in Summer League. And then they could do their 23, 25, 27 unprotected. They could throw in a 23 Mavs, 23 Wiz. They can throw in pick swaps. 23 Wiz.

God damn it. Well, it is protected. Congratulations. It's like top 12 protectors. Yeah, 14. I guess here's my question for you, House. Would you go all in if you're the Knicks on Mitchell? You have enough assets to make

a mega trade. You have all these picks. Picks are ultimately, they're going to have the most value. You have some young players topping as real value. You can play the RJ card. Would you do it now or would you wait and see if there's a better player than Mitchell that might come available in the next

six to 12 months? Because as we know in the NBA, these guys keep coming available. So why go all in right here on Mitchell when you just signed Jalen Brunson and now you're going to have a small backcourt and Mitchell couldn't guard anybody in the playoffs last year?

He didn't want to guard anybody in the playoffs last year. Let's just be blunt about it. You think it was defensive sabotage? I wouldn't call it sabotage, but as we know, defense comes from desire and effort. That's 75% of it in the NBA.

I don't know. How does that explain the Clippers series the year before? I don't know. I've never seen him play good defense. In any event, I think you've hit on the crucial question. The problem for the Knicks is who is that player? Who is the six-month, the 12-month player?

Donovan Mitchell's staring you in the face, and he's attractive for a whole bunch of reasons that don't have anything to do necessarily with the basketball skill. The basketball skill is pretty effing compelling. Like him getting to a big market and seeing what the love of that... Now, Utah loves its players, let there be no doubt.

But I just mean, you know, it is a force multiplier. Did you just catch yourself because you were afraid of being attacked by the Utah fans? That felt like a very self-conscious reaction. I have been attacked. I've been attacked by the Utah fans. They're attackers. They never let me forget the shit that I talked about George Hill, who played good for

them for four months. You know, made a career out of the all-star George Hill. But in any event, this was a handful of years ago, think the knicks would be better served going all in for donovan mitchell now rather than the waiting and seeing thing because i think that they think that they have um an asset who wants to come to them and make a new mark, make a new name, rebrand altogether, create momentum in New York City for exciting basketball.

All of those factors don't really have anything to do with the talent aspect, but they're very important, I think, to both the way that Donovan Mitchell might think about the situation and what the Knicks know about the situation, which is they cannot repeat the, this, this subpar lack of effort. And, and I,

and seriously, they got to do something about Julius Randall. They have to fix that, that wet fart because with that, the, the wet stain that he's leaving in Tibbs, his pants is just so brutal. So undermining speaking of sabotage, they have to fix that.

But the idea of a three. Can I give you the Julius Randolph fix? I'm dying to hear it. Didn't have a point guard last year. Now he's got somebody who knows how to get him the basketball and can run an offense. He's going to be super happy this year. Oof. All-NBA guy a year offense. He's going to be super happy this year. Oof.

All-NBA guy a year ago. It was only a year ago. Yep. On a weird team last year. Didn't have anybody who could get him the ball. What was that weird? I'm just giving you... You're saying that Derrick Rose is the Randall Whisperer?

I'm giving you the spin. The difference between Derrick Rose and not Derrick Rose? I'm giving you the spin. Well, now he's got... It's a stinky spin. He's got Mitchell and he's got Brunson. He's got two guards. So he'll be motivated. We know how to give him the ball. Because he thinks he's an alpha.

We're not just getting down to Mitchell. We're getting Julius Randle back. Okay. Okay. Okay. I like it. I like it. I'm just doing the PR. I like it. Yeah. You're making the case for me. That's also part of the case for the Knicks. What they must be saying to themselves, right? Well, they've always liked Mitchell.

Mitchell's a CAA guy. Leanne and Wes were there when he got signed. All the CAA people were adamant that Mitchell was going to come back to haunt all the teams that passed him when he went 13th in that draft. And I think he haunted at least a few of them. For sure. He went to Greenwich Country Day. Okay. A school very near and dear to my heart. He's an East Coast guy. And I think he would probably enjoy a bigger stage. So the Knicks probably feel like they're the favorites. The case for going all in now would be at least you now have the asset.

And now, worst case scenario, maybe he spun off into a different trade, right? Because he might even have more value than his actual effect on a basketball court. What do you mean? Two years from now? It could be six months from now. At least he's an asset. Six months from now. Whatever.

You're just getting a major asset. If it goes in a worst-case scenario direction immediately upon his arrival, there's nothing other than whatever the collective bargaining restrictions are on trading a guy you've just acquired. That would be the only restriction. Thought experiment.

Don't aggregate this aggregator, people. If you're the Knicks, in the back of your heads, are you thinking this now ruins our chance for Anthony Davis if that Lakers situation goes sideways? And am I overvaluing Anthony Davis by even saying that? Wait, say that again? Anthony Davis?

Anthony Davis down the road. Because if I'm doing this Mitchell trade now the scenario of a really super unhappy Laker team in January with LeBron being like yeah I'm not resigning after this season I'm out

and Davis is like well I'm going to be unhappy and we don't have any picks how are we going to get better what's the move maybe I need to be you're shaking your head but there's a lot of teams in the league. People are watching the Lakers thing really carefully. That makes perfect sense. You need to have, for me, we need to have proof of concept

that Anthony Davis can play 60 games of professional basketball. That's why I brought that up. Has he declined as an asset enough that you can't have that in the back of your head because he's not the same guy that we thought he was three years ago? He has in my book. Yeah. Well, he's another Kentucky guy.

Wes has real ties to Cal Perry, the whole thing. I think it's extended family. I don't take that stuff lightly because that's how they got Brunson. Brunson didn't even take a meeting with the Mavericks. Oh, I didn't hear that. Well, remember it was being reported, oh, he's going to have one last

meeting. He didn't have a meeting. He just signed the deal. So anyway, the Mitchell thing, for me, last two years, 26-5 and 4. 44, 37, 85% splits. Turns 26 in September. 21 FPR, 33.2 usage the last couple of years.

So the advanced metrics look pretty good. I test. I remember going to that Clipper game. I went to all the Clipper Utah games during when COVID felt like it was lifting and then all of a sudden it wasn't, summer of 2021. And he was playing hurt. But he was kind of feeling it at one point in,

I think it was the elimination game or one of the games. And he just took over the game for like a quarter. I do think he has that special quality. Kyrie has it. Lots of guys have it. It's not like there's three guys in the league who has it, but he does have it. He does have that. I can go into somebody else's building and kick ass. I can be in my own building and something really special might happen. As a scoring guard, he does have that. It's really hard for me to not think about how

bad he was defensively in the playoffs and whether he's a winning player. And then Russel and I talked about just the whiff of Westbrook with him, where he just seems to need the ball a lot. He just seems to need the ball a lot. And it's the old question of how much fun would he actually be to play with? So those would be my two questions. Can I add a third? Yeah. How do you think people are sizing up forecasting the likelihood of success of him playing

for Tibbs? How does that factor in? How does the Tibbs factor play out? I don't know. If you had to do an over-under on how long is Tibbs going to be the next coach and I said a year and a half would you go over or under? Under way under I mean I honestly think I don't care about that

it's not the care about part but for them to have this sort of big three plus whatever rejuvenation of Randall is Tibbs the right steward for that? It's a good question.

Certainly didn't look like it last year. One thing, Mitchell's been pretty durable. I don't think he's had a major injury yet, especially in the playoffs. He's been able to play big minutes. He's been able to play hurt, stuff like that. I just think from that standpoint, he's a good bet

if you're giving up the assets. But if I were a Knicks fan, A, RJ, unless it was just RJ and a contract for Mitchell straight up, I don't, I just wouldn't be throwing in

like RJ and three picks. But I think the Knicks aren't going to do that. So it would have to be something along the lines of what I mentioned. I don't going to do that. So it would have to be something along the lines of what I mentioned. I don't think Utah wants that. Right?

It's not the games playbooks. They want picks. Yeah. Do you believe in the history at all? As you know, your team has a somewhat tortured history. And by somewhat, I mean tortured. Yeah. And we talked about how the Bradley Beal contract is symbolic of all these other terrible contracts

the Wizards have given over the years. And I don't know what the next... Do you get like a little Marbury flashbacks with this trade? If it was something... Just a ton of... It's like, oh man, they got Marbury. I feel like... Now we lost them round one with Marbury.

Where do we go? Well, the assets are worth it though, because their option tree doesn't have 50 branches on it. You know what I mean? It has two branches or three branches. And the price for Mitchell is the right price. That's the thing that to me is most compelling. If they can get away

with acquiring this guy, giving up some first round picks and just, you know, and reinvigorating. Toppin's good. I like him. He's a good role player. And he's, you know,

I think probably the most valuable asset coming back for the Knicks other than the picks. Wait, let me rank the trade packages for you though. Davis being a 10. Gobert being like a 9. I guess Paul George would be

an 8. What's Harden? I mean, the Houston fans are going to get mad, but... I still... That's still a TBD to me. Although, Easton looked... I mean, I think Easton was a good pick. Me too.

But I'm still not positive that they got an awesome asset out of that trade. They might. But I feel the same way about the Paul George trade. They might, but I feel the same way about the Paul George trade if Shea Gilgis Alexander wasn't in it. In every trade you look, there was some awesome asset in the trade. Brandon Ingram was in the AD trade. SGA was in the Paul George trade. And then you had all these picks. The Drew Holiday trade, the asset was getting rid of Eric Bledsoe and Steven Adams. And you go on down the line. In the harder one, it doesn't have the asset. If they of Eric Bledsoe and Steven Adams. You go on down the line,

in the heart of it, it doesn't have the asset. If they had gotten Jared Allen out of it, you could have been well, they got Jared Allen and all these picks. But they didn't keep any of the players. To me, that's still a TBD. At least with Utah, if they got Toppin and they got Miles McBride

and they got all these picks and you could be like, oh, well, maybe Toppin will make it Miles McBride and they got all these picks and you could be like, oh, well, maybe Toppin will make it. I don't know. But I also don't think Mitchell is as good as Harden was, obviously. He shouldn't get as much. Right. Right. I think it's super fair. I really like it for the Knicks. I mean, I know we have to indulge the possibility

of other teams and we'll do the Miami thing. Well, I have that. No, I have this right now. We're going to take a break and I'm going to throw three trades that I like more than the next trade for Utah. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

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and has a proven track record of incompetence. Now, you might say the Knicks qualify, and if you wanted to say that, I wouldn't really be able to fight back. The Knicks, five playoffs since 2001. They've had one winning playoff series this century. They've had 11 top 10 picks series this century. They've had 11 top 10 picks, plus they traded three

more. That's just since 2001. So that's certainly an incompetent franchise. James Dolan's been the owner the whole time. He's going to remain the owner. It's a good thing to trade with them. I'm going to offer you Sacramento. Zero playoffs since

2006. No 41 win seasons since 2006. No 41 win season since 2006. And they've had 13 top 10 picks since 2006. That's a team I want a lot of picks from. For sure. Charlotte. Three playoffs since 2002.

They've had 11 top 10 picks. That's a team they... Jordan's going to stay the owner. They've had 11 top 10 picks. That's a team. Jordan's going to stay the owner. That's a Lamello. Who knows how long he stays? That's a team I might want picks from. And then your beloved Wiz.

Since 1989, 10 playoff appearances total. You've had 17 top 10 picks in 33 years. And you're paying Bradley Beal $130 million a year. I want your picks. So I'm going to look at it that way. So going in order, Charlotte. And you'd be like,

Charlotte from Mitchell? It's like, yeah, why not? Like they're in this Miles Bridges situation that is just an absolute awful, awful nightmare of a situation.

He might go to jail. He might not play next year. He might not, like he just might be off the team. They have LaMelo and really that's it. Plus Booknight. They have, they took the guy from Duke,

the center, and they have some veterans, right? I mean, Haywood. Right. So if it was Hayward, and Kelly Oubre, and Booknight, and then three firsts and a swap,

and I sent back Mitchell and Beasley, I would rather have that than the Knicks offer. Sheerly on the basis that Charlotte's going to stink. If you line up Charlotte's roster and compare it to the Knicks roster, which of these two teams is more certain to miss the playoffs? Charlotte's not going to spend money. I don't have to worry about them going over the luxury tax. They'll have Lomelo and they'll have Donovan Mitchell

and they'll be fun to watch. But one guy gets injured for one year or somebody's unhappy, who knows? And now I have a lot of their picks. I actually don't think Charlotte would do that, but I would be kicking the tires than that if I'm Utah. If I'm looking at Washington, Will Barton, Hachimura, Johnny Davis, the guy you just took,

10th shooting guard. I'm familiar. He's 8 for 29 in Summer League. That's not a joke. From the field. 8 for 29. He felt the busty-ish out of all the picks the moment the

ladder happened. 1 for 11, 4 for 11, 3 for 7. Alright, I got those three and I got three unprotected firsts and a pick swap. Do I feel better about those picks coming in roses for me than I would with the Knicks? That means Donovan Mitchell gets to play with Bradley Beal and Kristaps Porzingis? Yeah, the big three. And from Utah's perspective, I don't think they want to take that on. I mean, that Washington team, that's a play-in team. That's a seven seed waiting to happen.

Or eight seed. So you still like the Knicks and rolling the dice against Brunson, Julius Randle, Mitchell Robinson, a luxury tax team, R.J. Barrett. You think that's a better bet to have shitty picks than poor Zingas, Beal, and Mitchell? I just think Julius Randle is such a bad actor. I just think... Just last year. Maybe he had a bad year.

He doesn't have a career. It's like Will Smith. Maybe it's just a bad year. Bad moment. He's banned for 10 years because of that bad moment. Yeah, Will Smith's the worst. All right, here's my favorite. I can't believe this team

has not been mentioned. They're a playoff team. They have one of the best five players in the league. The Denver Nuggets. Oh. What if it was Michael Porter, Is Smith,

Jeff Green, two firsts, and three swaps, and I get Mitchell and I get Pat Beverly? That's bad for Utah. Denver's good. They have the back-to-back MVP. He dragged them into the first round of the playoffs.

But I'm getting Michael Porter. And they won a game. But I'm getting Michael Porter. It's expensive. I mean, look, I don't want to make jokes. I do not want to make jokes. Well, he missed the entire year last year. So what's your level of confidence that he's going to play basketball

and be able to play 70 games a year? What's the level of confidence that he's going to play basketball and be able to play 70 games a year? What's the level of confidence? Guess what I'm doing if I'm Utah. Michael, you're taking another year off. Sure. Get yourself healthy. We have some facilities in Italy and Greece and Germany and we're going to really work on your

back and we're totally cool if you don't want to play this year. And then we get those Denver picks. I'm just asking, do you like that trade more than the Knicks? Because think about it from the Denver side. If I'm Denver, it's like, holy shit. Now I have Murray and I have

Mitchell and I have Jokic, obviously. They got KCP who's a professional basketball player. Maybe instead of Mitchell. Maybe I'll try to get Boyan Bogdanovich instead. I mean, instead of Beverly. And I get

Mitchell and Bogdanovich. That team is too good. It's Boyan on that team. If I'm Denver, I'm just going all offense. I'm never going to get the stops that Golden State and Boston were getting in the playoffs last year. But what I can do is score 130 points a game.

It's a good team what you're talking about, though. How does that fit Utah's desires? They don't want draft picks from a good team. Yeah, but I'm getting Michael Porter Jr., though. That's my play. Okay. All right. So you don't like that one.

What's your favorite out of the four? It's just a lot of investment in Michael Porter Jr. stock. I mean, you really have to understand back science and microdisectomy surgery. And, you know, you better have a really strong surgical staff there in Utah. Now, I don't know. Did D. Wade get the same surgery as Michael Porter Jr.? I mean, you know, D D Wade get the same surgery as, as, uh, Michael Porter Jr. I mean, you know,

D Wade's in the mix. So, but you need, you need really smart, uh, scientists, medical professionals in the mix. If you're going to go in that direction,

the Knicks is the best play because those four, the four that we mentioned. Yeah. All four of those offers and packages are better than Tyler Harrow, Duncan Robinson, and some picks from a team that is never bad ever. That's a fact. I want to go with teams that have proven to lose over the last 20 plus years.

Yes. Teams that have either weird ownership situations or just a proven track record of incompetence. Agreed. That's who I want to trade Donovan Mitchell to if I can. You didn't make a Sacramento deal. Sacramento is the most incompetent franchise. I'm about to because it's my favorite of the bunch. Darren Fox.

Okay. Two first round picks and a pick swap for Mitchell. Ooh. Okay. Ooh. Okay. Huh. If you're Sacramento, you're thinking, hmm,

Darren Fox is a good player. Mitchell's been in playoff series. He's proven he can go toe to toe with other great players. He could be a real star for us. Now I have Mitchell and Mitchell in the backcourt with Malik Mok and Kevin Herter,

two of my favorite players in the league. I have Keegan Murray, star of the Summer League. I have Harrison Barnes. I have Sabonis. I have Rashawn Holmes. I have maybe a buyout guy in February. I'm having real ideas now because Donovan Mitchell is better than De'Aaron Fox.

Donovan Mitchell is better than De'Aaron Fox. Donovan Mitchell is better than De'Aaron Fox. And if I'm... Facts. And if I'm Utah, I'm like, look, Donovan Mitchell is better than De'Aaron Fox. Give us some picks and some swaps. And you're just hoping Sacramento, who, again, no playoffs since 2006,

you're hoping Vivek is just like, fuck it, I'm taking a swing. Donovan Mitchell, 31 playoffs, last three years, Donovan Mitchell, 23 games, 32 points a game, 32, five and five, 46, 41, 81% splits. I'm looking at that. I'm like, this guy could go in a playoff series

and maybe beat somebody. Maybe this is my version of Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond. You just have to do it to me. I'm sorry. With Utah, from their perspective, also part of what could be appealing is they

don't have to feel like they're invested in De'Aaron Fox. If they want to flip him, come next trade deadline, that feels like... How about this? Then you go to the Knicks and you say, hey, I know you wanted Mitchell, but we got De'Aaron Fox now. Any interest?

Yeah. It's a similar package. Maybe a couple picks. He was a Kentucky guy. Well liked by those dudes, but yeah, I like... It's weird, but I like that. That's a Kentucky guy. Well liked by those dudes. But yeah, I like it's weird. That's a nice double dip. Think about that. Oh, Sacramento and the Knicks. Do you get both of them involved? That is a Danny Ainge

mastermind, you know, Machiavelli kind of play. The problem as we talked about on Sunday in the trade value pod with Priscilla was the happiness piece of it. So you have Mitchell who thinks he's going in the Knicks. It's like, cool.

New York. Big market. It's Donovan Mitchell time. And then it's like, no, actually, we're sending you to Sacramento. Sorry. Sorry. They haven't made the playoffs since 2006, but you'll love it there. It'll be great. But on paper,

I mean, shit. Mitchell, Mitchell, Monk, Carter, Murray, Barnes,

Sabonis, and Holmes. That's a league pass team at a minimum. That's a fucking great team. At an absolute bare minimum. For entertainment standpoint. Yes. That's a,

that's like, oh, it's a Thursday night and Sacramento's coming on at, at, at, you know, nine 30 or 10 o'clock. Am I, I guess I'm just gonna, you know, I'm going to lose the night cause I have to sit here and watch Sacramento. I have one more is Serena. Are you on this? Oh, if, if, if it came out Woj tweets Orlando and Utah in serious

talks for Donovan Mitchell just what are the next 10 seconds for you Lick? I've been trying to talk myself into this for months now because on one hand I go he's actually kind of the perfect guy that they need I'm not worried about the defensive stuff with him like he could be a terrible defender

and the rest of their roster is a bunch of good defenders. They need the 26, 27 point a game dude, right? The other thought is would I be happy giving up on Suggs and just saying alright, we're punting on him essentially and probably some picks.

How about this? Suggs? You have Isaac, that crazy contract that's now, he's worth 17 as a cap figure, but it's kind of waivable. You could maybe throw a little Cole Anthony their way. Okay.

And then three unprotected and two swaps. And now all of a sudden, you're ready to go. You have a real professional offensive basketball team. The only reason I think I would say no to that is because I want to see at least half a season of just the young guys play it out.

I think I'd be bummed if I didn't see what that looked like. Like, Apollo, can he be the guy? Really? Is Suggs' thing going to turn around? Yeah, I mean mean I don't know what do you think you're gonna see in that yeah you're gonna see guys bump into each other there's good chemistry there

like it's like there's the camaraderie like can I at least get it for a couple of months before we blow it up and yeah do it like but here's the thing what are you blowing up you're trading Jalen Suggs and Cole Anthony and 17 picks that does not sound like blowing it up you're blowing up a core that, you know, and yes, this is me putting my rosy sun glasses on,

but like you're blowing up something that could be like, I don't know, five, 10 years of like a pretty interesting team, competitive team in the East for a little bit of a short-term thing. Are we all concerned, by the way, about Donovan Mitchell and the way he plays and some of the health stuff too? Like small guards in the league. I'm a little worried about that as well. Mention it earlier.

Yeah. I mean, he's just a whiff of Westbrook with him. A little bit. Just a whiff. A little bit. I was talking myself into whether or not Westbrook would be a good fit for the Magic two summers ago. So, I mean, I guess here we are with a better version of that.

I think you have to do it if you're Orlando, but part of me would still be bummed because I kind of want to see this young core working out. House is all in on Donovan Mitchell to Orlando. By the way, let's talk it out. So the deal is close and Mitchell's a little wary. So now we're in the recruiting phase. You're going to love it here. No state tax. Tiger Woods. Oh, Donovan, you have a phone call. It's the great Tiger Woods. He wants to talk to you about how great it is to play for the Magic.

Oh, Kevin Clark's on the other line. You can call him back later. Tiger Woods is on the phone. It's really nice there. You get to be in Florida. Super chill. Nobody really knows your business in Orlando. Just do your own thing you get a nice big giant house you seen tiger woods's seven houses in florida what else am i missing house golf lifetime passes to disney anytime 24 7 access to disney you want to go to

the star wars exhibit take your kids some friends grab 15 friends it's 10 o'clock at night bring everybody we're going to open up the star wars exhibit for you your kids, some friends. Grab 15 friends. It's 10 o'clock at night. Bring everybody. We're going to open up the Star Wars exhibit for you. You're sitting there for two hours. Ride the Millennium Falcon. Here's a Franz Wagner eight-minute YouTube clip. Best of Franz. And here's some Paolo Summer League action. Check these two

guys out. South Beach or Disney World. It's a tough call for me, guys. For an NBA guy who's in his mid-20s, it's a tough call. I don't know. I will say this. Orlando has the best deal for what Utah

wants if Utah's... If what they want is young players, cap space, and picks from a team that does not really have a proven track record of being that good. Orlando can beat the Knicks.

Suggs is equal to the top in asset at where I actually like it a tiny bit more and they have just as many picks. To your point, all three of those guys,

I'm still not selling my Jonathan Isaac stock. I love that the contract is basically awesome now. Wow, that is like BuzzFeed stock. Well, because, listen, his upside is defensive player of the year capabilities. I mean, he's that good on the defensive side of the ball.

If he's right, he'll figure it out. He hasn't played in seven years. True, he's written more books in the last two years than he has appeared in NBA playoff games, or NBA games in general. But, I don't know. You're right. You're getting three guys that actually could be decent players in the league plus picks on a team that, you know, hasn't had a great track record.

It's not terrible. Let me ask you this. What's the ceiling for Orlando then? Does that make them in a couple years like a legit team in the East? Or are they just like maybe top four? Are they like the bulls where it's like we're just happy to kind of be here and in the conversation? Well, first of all, the league pass ceiling is almost incalculable.

I think that's just, they were already on my league pass list. And then now I would have to even take them a little more seriously. I think the thing, here's the thing. 2007, the Celtics, House, notice how I was able to weed the Celtics into this. It's really like, this is why I'm the best. Of course. They trade the number five pick for Ray Allen. And it makes no sense. It's like, why are we doing this? We have Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Al Jefferson. Our ceiling is like 45 wins. What's the point of this? But what Danny saw with this, which is what I think is he doesn't get enough credit for,

he realized that that was the gateway drug to the KG trade. And that was the piece none of us saw. We're like, what the fuck are we doing? It's just going to be Ray Allen and Paul Pierce? What are we winning? But he saw, if I get these two, now I can get the third guy. And with Orlando, if you have Mitchell and you have Paolo and Wagner

and you have this good young identity and whatever, now you have Mitchell and you have Paolo and Wagner and you have this good young identity and whatever, now you're one guy away. You know, maybe you're one free agent away. I don't know. Bring back the 90s pinstripe jerseys, like the classic best jerseys. Oh my God. The whole brand gets rejuvenated. People are diving back in.

Listen, the funny thing is I actually would talk myself more into this if they drafted Chet, not Paolo, because I think Chet's the... And here we go. Magic fans are going to get mad at me again. Because he's more of that

complimentary player. I don't know. I just want to see what this team looks like. That would be my only scare. But I think you have to do it. You have to do it. If you can get that...

Wait, one last question on that. So it's July 14th. Where do we stand on Chet or Paolo? Because this is America's favorite soap opera. I got to wash my mouth because Magic Reddit was very mad at Kev and I

for just being excited about Chet being awesome in his first game. That's all we were doing. Oh wait, Reddit was mad at somebody? I mean, of course they were. Why have you been reading that? Stunning. What's in your heart? Listen, Palo's going to win Rookie of the Year he's going to he's the most ready-made

player in the league he's got an NBA body look at that house is nodding what is it like plus 350 right now I mean that's that's just

that's money that's money in the bank right now plow into it is what it is it should not be that high I still think long term I'd be bummed if Chet

wasn't that guy too I think Keegan Murray could be in that mix I'm not doing the overreact to Summer League because he did this in college last year. I think he's going to get a lot of shots on that Kings team. That Kings

team might be good. I mean, if he averaged like 17 a game for a Kings team that went like 43 and 39, I think he'd be in the mix. I'm with you, Paolo. To me, he's the overwhelming favorite. But if I had to pick a second guy, I think I would pick Keegan Murray. Who would you have, House? The exact same. I'm with you. Paolo, to me, is the overwhelming favorite. But if I had to pick a second guy, I think I would pick Keegan Murray. Who would you have, House? The exact same. I was on with JJ yesterday. We had this very conversation. He's available at 8-1. That's real value. Keegan

Murray's absolutely NBA ready, and the Kings are absolutely, I think, going to give him the opportunity. The rookie of the year thing is just the opportunity. How many times is a guy going to touch the ball? I feel pretty confident that Keegan Murray is going to get enough touches. Paolo is going to get the most touches, which is why you bet on him, but at 8-1, I like Keegan. It's a good call. Let me

just ask you this really quick. Can Orlando be this year's Cleveland? By that, I mean Paolo is this year's Evan Mobley. Just with what you have. They're ahead of schedule. And he's the best player on the team. I think that's the pathway to him being, obviously,

the dominant Rookie of the Year guy. I think it's possible. So you're saying no other moves could they beat Cleveland? Yeah. Yeah, just as is. I think they're actually, like, listen, you're going to laugh. I think they're not a terrible team. I think they actually have a good amount of talent. And last year, they were a 500 team when Fultz came back.

Just saying. I don't think they could be next last year's Cleveland just because the reason Cleveland was doing that was the defense. And you're not going to be able to play defense like that. Well, the Magic were, I think, for a good stretch last year. Again, this is like when Fultz came back. They were the number one defensive rated

team in the NBA. After the All-Star break, they were actually incredible. So that's why I wouldn't be worried about Donovan Mitchell. They already have a pretty good defensive thing in place. You think that's staying the same with Palo and Franz playing together?

Well, Franz is a fantastic defender. He's, for a guy who's 6'10", But just as those are your two forwards, though? We'll have to see how it goes, but I think they could hide Palo in certain aspects of the game. Like, they're not going to be the number one rated defensive team,

but I think they could be middle of the pack, sniffing top 10. Do you agree with that, Huss? No, I do not agree with that. Huss and Aaron were dubious. I'm looking at FanDuel. Jabari is 7-1. Keegan's 7-1.

To me, Keegan's odds should be better than Jabari's. I think I'm still, I really like Jabari, but I think he, even Summer League, you could see, like, it's going to take a lot of time for him from a shot creation standpoint. Summer League is the worst place for a guy like Jabari. He needs the ball. He needs guys setting him up.

But his defense was good, though. The Palo plus 330 now and then Chet plus 420. I, uh, I'm with you on the Palo thing. I think he should be like plus 150. I almost feel like if he doesn't get hurt, I would be surprised if he'd next win it. So what we learned is that

Orlando is in the same position the Knicks are in. They're just not being aggressive about it. Now we saw, I read that whole Windhorse piece about why they waited until the final day to reveal who they were picking first. And guess what? I still didn't understand it. It was like, whoa, you're playing high stakes poker.

It's like, with who? You had all the cards. It was your pick. I still don't understand it. Like, I genuinely, honestly, I'm not trying to be a dick. I don't understand it. I don't understand what was the downside of letting people know they might take Paolo.

Do you understand it, Cerruti? I don't either. I don't. And honestly, if you bring it up again, Magic fans get mad at you. I'm okay to be... It's still okay for me to ask questions about why that was kept a secret. There is no benefit to it. If you were hoping that somebody would trade up, does that mean... If you told everybody

you wanted Paolo, that would have probably gotten you more offers like the fact that they kept it quiet like Houston thought Paulo was going to slide to them so the only explanation to me is that when it became clear like half an hour before the draft that Paulo was going to be the guy that Houston would just be like oh shit panic and offer like 10 first round picks which the likelihood of that happening wasn't wasn't very high either so i i don't understand if paulo was always your guy then why high why hide that you know just you know and why not talk to him more why weren't why were they well there was there were rumors that he like chet didn't want to go there so i don't know if that played into it either um and jabari wanted to be

the guy he was the only guy that i guess wanted to be in orlando and was like disappointed he didn't go one. But again, I don't think people were offering you these godfather packages to trade up for Jabari. They were only doing that for Paulo and Chet. And that's, they basically, that wasn't what the smoke signal was for two months. And also everybody was like, OKC loves Chet.

So OKC just gets Chet. They don't have to do any work. It doesn't make any sense. All right. Putting a bow in this house, your favorite trade is still the Knicks for Donovan Mitchell? Yes, yes, yes.

You're not enticed at all by my Orlando or Sacramento moves? I like both of them fine, but I think the Knicks make the most sense. And there's always a part of me that likes when there's a buzz at MSG. I like the Knicks to be relevant. I like it when they're dead.

As basketball fans, I think Knicks, I still think Orlando would be really fun. My top two, I think, would be Knicks, Orlando, and probably Sacramento with the bronze.

What do you, Saruti, you're recused from an Orlando vote, but who would be your favorite non-Orlando Mitchell team? It's the Knicks. I'm notoriously an anti-heat guy, so I would be bummed if he went there.

And JJ needs this. Come on, for the New York pod. We need this for JJ. I mean, JJ, it's all coming up JJ these days. The Yankees. JJ's talking about 120 regular season wins. He's talking himself into Tua being a sleeper for comeback

of the year. Am I allowed to talk about Zach Wilson? Work in silence and let success be your noise. Speaking of things, things happening in New York that are exciting. I like very exciting. I love having the most eligible bachelor. We're going to take one more break. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. one more break.

When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding

sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh.

This message is brought to you by Metrolinx. All right, we're going to do a little trade value and then British Open and then we're going to wrap it up because it doesn't look like there's going to be a trade. So, you're on the secret committee that helps me with the trade value list, along with at least one other person

who should remain nameless. Did a lot of back and forth. What were you the most offended by on the list, on the trade value list? What was the one that you just couldn't get past? Offended by? I always have trouble with the young guys. I always have

trouble with the first year guys and the guys who have just been drafted. You know that I understand exactly how and why it is that this list comes together in the manner that it does. I just... Having Cade Cunningham and Scotty Barnes together at the 15,

16 spot, you know, um, uh, across, I understand how important those assets are to those teams, but, um,

I, it just seems crazy to me when you look at some guys, you know, beneath of them, like Zion is of them. Like Zion is below them. Yes, exactly right. Yeah, I get it. Or like Karl-Anthony Towns or Kawhi.

Kawhi is going to go down in history as having taken the MVP of two different teams in the two conferences. It's just the visceral reaction to that. That's all. It's not really even a complaint. Yeah, but if you were Toronto, yeah, you're right. I mean, I get it. But if you're Toronto, there's no way you're trading

Scottie Barnes for Kawhi Leonard. I don't see how you couldn't if you're Toronto. Do you want to try and win the championship again? Kawhi Leonard single-handedly led you to winning the NBA championship. You don't think, and everybody in Toronto was heartbroken when he left. They understood it, but they were heartbroken.

Now, I get how everybody can talk themselves into the multifaceted dynamic player that the rookie of the year, Scotty Barnes, who really came out of left field, except for when we talked about him on the gambling podcast and he gave him out at 10 to 1. Thank you very much. And a lot of our listeners, your listeners, thank you for that as well. But Kawhi Leonard, Kawhi Leonard, healthy Kawhi. That's all. One of the reasons I think young players get valued like that is because you're getting the whole journey. You're trading 15 years of a guy. It's just a daunting thing to think about.

I think about Pierce. Pierce shows up in Boston in 98. We had him until 13. We had him for a decade and a half. It was fucking awesome. There's a couple moments when we almost didn't have him where he got,

first of all, he almost got stabbed to death, which he recovered from and played 82 games or 81 games, whatever. But then he almost left in 2005.

He almost got traded. 07, seemed like he might potentially get traded if they tanked. But you go on this journey with these guys and I think

somebody like Barnes or Cade or even like Trey Young, they're at the beginning of this run, you know? And I think there's real value to that with the young kids are buying their jerseys. And I just think teams, I think they factor it in.

And I also think like, if you're looking at somebody like Kawhi, like he's had a couple of major injuries at this point, you know, and he's been in the league. Been in the league, he was in the 2011 draft. So am I paying for past performance? So I think I agree with you. It's always a fun list and a weird list to put together

because you're putting Scottie Barnes in front of Carl Anthony Towns. Right. Who was the third-team All-NBA guy last year. Yeah, that's right. But I think it's the right call. I understand it. I also don't have an answer for what to do with Zion or about Zion. He continues to me to be a franchise cornerstone guy. He's so young. And what he showed us in the the notion that he's not going to have these repeated injuries that he keeps having. But holy cow.

I'm not even saying that he belongs anywhere else on this list. The big cripple I have with the top 15 is Paul George. And for many of the reasons that we just went through a guy who's also had some injury mileage on him so I had him 14 so I don't

for the reasons that we talked about why Kawhi belongs where he belongs I would put Paul George in that category as well I would have Brandon Ingram or Bam up higher Paul George in that category as well. I would have Brandon Ingram or Bam up higher. I think you're right.

I think that was one of my regrets because you're not the first person to mention that one to me. Just that his body's been pretty banged up. And whether he could be 100% next year, who knows. And I'm sure he probably will be. But it's that surgery point and no return. I always mention

Blake Griffin with that, where it's like, all right, he's had this. Now, all of a sudden, he's like, oh, shit. He's had five things. I really value the stuff that he did in the playoffs two years ago, though. Playoff P, your guy. I thought he showed up, but you're right.

That was probably... A couple people mentioned Laomelo to me. I had Lomelo 33. I had him in that Palo Chet, Darius Green, Jalen Green, Jabari Lomelo. And people are like, why wasn't Lomelo higher? Why do you have Cade Cunningham 15th and Lomelo 33rd? I guess for me, I'm just not positive Lomelo is a winning player yet. He's got to prove it to me.

Sure. I believe Cade is. I think he's a winning player. Yep. I'm not positive what L a winning player yet. He's got to prove it to me. I believe Cade is. I think he's a winning player. I'm not positive what LaMelo is yet. I don't know if he's a fantasy stats, really fun to watch, looks great on TikTok guy who's going to be between 30 and 40 wins every year, or can actually build a real winning team around him? He's so young. That's the thing that really commends him. He has already demonstrated at his young age such

an IQ offensively. If you wanted to move him up higher, I wouldn't argue with it. Yeah, because I think about Zach Levine at 27 for Chicago and it's... I don't know. If they offered Zach Levine for Lamello,

I just don't think Charlotte's even considering that. I agree. I totally agree with that. So yeah, that's why this list we've had, you know, we've had draft after draft and I'm always like changing my mind left and right on different things. Bradley Beal, I ended up putting him 43

and you had a lot of input in that. It was weird. You started defending him at one point you're like wait a second i know he's overpaid but come on we're not trading bradley beal for desmond bain he's got to be 40 you know 43 or lower yeah yeah like just on a pure talent basis and what he might fetch in return when he demands the trade that he's going to demand uh i went on ben standings podcast the standing room only and we just did a deep dive uh on the wizards and our over under for when beal demands his his trade is one one 2024 we

gave him the benefit of like 18 months like a year and a half and both of us took the under so we will have a a true test as to what his trade value is. And I don't think Washington won't be in a mode where they want back a star player. They're going to want back picks and stuff to build on because they're finally going to do the rebuilding that they should have undertaken a handful of years ago. Unless you trade everything for Donovan Mitchell, then it won't happen. I don't think that's going to happen. I wonder if he does want to trade. God, I hope my team's not involved.

I think my team would be smart enough not to trade for a guy making $50 million a year. But what do I know? The NFL has surprised us before. All right, before we do British Open, have you started doing NFL homework yet? Oh, not only have I started doing the homework, you know we're getting ready on the Ringer Gambling Show to start doing some division odds, pick some division winners.

So I've already, the two things that I'm deepest in on already, and I've bet this one particular one too many ways, I'm so out on Tennessee. I can't come up with a single scenario. I have Indianapolis winning that division. I have Tennessee missing the playoffs. I have Tennessee under

on their wins. The only thing that really gives them pause. Tennessee plus 160, Colts minus 115. They were even what, a month ago? A month ago. So there's been more Colts action than some tight shorting. Go ahead.

It's just Vrabel. Vrabel, all season last year, they pulled out wins out of very unlikely circumstances. They pulled out wins where the metrics did not support them going in. They had some important wins on the road. It was all smoke and mirrors. And then ultimately, they were done in at the very beginning of their first opportunity

in the playoffs by Ryan Tannehill. And that's the issue. And I don't think that the hangover, the Tannehill stinkover is dissipated at all. And the little hissy fit that he threw the Tennessee draft to the quarterback I think that's going to be the identity of the team and that's why I'm fading them

every which way I can I also I might be on an island just by the way go ahead thank you for not mentioning how screwed we were by that Tannehill performance in the playoff game well I take these things personally. I mean, you know, I'm nothing if not a petty gambler.

And so when I lose big. I don't even know what my worst football loss was last year. I had dinner with Sal and the great Rob Stone on Tuesday night, Manhattan Beach. It was great. You had had an awesome time. We had some pork chops. But Sal and I, we were like,

was last year just an inordinate amount of just horrible gambling losses? Like the Chiefs just losing the Bengals game? It seemed like they were going to go up by three touchdowns, maybe in the halftime, and they lost. And I don't think that was my worst bet of the year or worst loss of the year. I was trying to think my worst loss of the year. I still think it's that game where Jared Goff on like fourth and 12 with no time remaining through the touchdown and killed their tees. I still think that's number one for me, but Tannehill is in the top three.

We had, we were so loaded up on, on Detroit, uh, with the worst record. We had worst record. We had whoever the hell they were playing that week and a three-teamer that that oh my god it was freaking jared goff he did it he did it to us the other team and it's too early for this uh and i haven't really had the opportunity to dive into warren sharp's new book yeah which which is out and available for sale. 570 pages or something crazy like that. I'm really skeptical of San Francisco. I really feel like they're seeing something in Trey Lance that the rest of us haven't

seen. And I don't like the fact that Debo Samuel understanding what he was going to be confronted with coming into this season has to be traded months ago. I don't like that because you know who knows what kind of

quarterback Trey Lance might be and what kind of opportunities are going to be there? Debo Samuel. And I think that they... I don't know what the options were because Jimmy G was hurt, but this... Biting down so hard on Trey Lance

at the expense of Jimmy G... I mean, Jimmy G is a competent game manager. They were like two points. And then Jimmy G did the belated surgery. He did that whole thing. I know. I know. I know. I know. He did it to himself.

But I'm just saying, it feels like the Niners could have handled all of that a little bit better. And I'm just skeptical of the Niners. That's all I'll say. I started doing work. I'm about to, on the vacation, really throw myself into it. But there's a couple divisions. They don't look right

to me. The odds don't look right. One of them is the Packers. And I know a lot. Minnesota's starting to get some buzz. They are. Just not having Mike Zimmer to me is three wins. That's plus three. I don't know what their

record was last year. Were they 8-9, 9-8? I don't remember. Plus three.. That's plus three. I don't know what their record was last year where they ate nine, nine and eight. I don't remember. Plus three. Plus three from last year. And then Green Bay, the receivers with Lazard is now the new Devontae Adams, Alan Lazard.

Christian Watson, rookie receiver. As you know, it could be great. It could be absolutely horrendous with a rookie receiver. You just don't know. Don't know. And then Randall Cobb for a year, 130.

And Tanyan. And those are all his weapons. And then I guess the running game. I know their defense is good. I get it. Both running backs can catch the ball out of the backfield. And that's what Packers fans keep telling me

is how they're going to offset some of it. Schedule? Like they're playing Minnesota at Minnesota week one. And then you think like, all right, let's see Minnesota wins that. Oh, now we got

at Philly week two, Detroit week three, at New Orleans week four, Chicago at Miami, Arizona week seven. Like I, I just like the Minnesota three to one

on FanDuel to win that division I thought was good. I might have to crash your pot even though I'm on vacation next week. The other one I was looking at, the Saints were plus 450.

And it's like, well, Sean Payton, it's a new transition. It's like, is it? They have a lot of good players. What if Olave is just good right away? Sure. What if Winston comes back and is actually a little wizened? Michael Thomas. What if Winston comes back and is actually, you know,

little wizened? Michael Thomas? What if he comes back? I don't know. The plus 450s seem crazy. Yeah, what you're really gambling on there is a Brady injury. Because if anything at all happens to Brady,

then we're really talking about a legit Duke him out. And you're not worried about... Top-heavy Bucs team? And plus you have Carolina and Atlanta in that division. You're not worried about Carolina or Atlanta. That's exactly right. So that's why that amounts to value.

That's why I like that one. And then the other one was just... I still don't understand why Cincy's not favored in the AFC North. And I'm going to spend a lot of time investigating that. Baltimore's better odds than the AFC North. I like Baltimore better. I bought Baltimore at 24-1 to spend a lot of time investigating that. Baltimore has better odds than the AFC North since he's plus 180. I like Baltimore better. I bought Baltimore

at 24-1 to win the Super Bowl this upcoming season. I think this is the Lamar year. Because he was going after Bernard Carmel Pollard on Twitter? He's going after everybody. He's not standing for it.

What happens if he goes after Sheriff Draymond? Does the sheriff come at him? What happens? Is that like the two Spider-Mids? That's exactly what that is. Pats have stayed tight at plus 450. Speaking of gambling,

what do you got for us for British Open? Because we've had day one is in the books. By the time people hear this, they'll have plenty of time to jump in. Now, the irony of all of this is your guy, Rory. Your I can't quit you guy. You have Rory's golf shirt in your little locker in your Heath Ledger trailer

that you sniff his PGA Championship shirt every once in a while, and you tell Rory you can't quit him. He's plus 340 now. By far the best odds on FanDuel. Cam Smith is 7-1. People are thinking this could be the Rory week. Well,

one of those people is me and on the fairway roll and podcast, both on Monday and the show published on Wednesday, I was very unabashed in my enthusiasm for Rory because I think the combination of the moment, the historical moment, the it's the 150th open championship. It is possibly the last that Tiger Woods will ever play at St. Andrews. And this

crucial sort of juncture in terms of the impact of the Live Tour. This could be the last time that this group of professionals is all together on the stage that they're on. And I just think that narrative portion of it all by itself speaks in favor of Rory.

But Rory's also been playing awesome lately. It's also the case that he hasn't won a major since 2014, the Open Championship in 2014. He was supposed to defend that title. He hasn't won a major in eight years?

No, he has not. I didn't realize it was that long. I knew I was like five or six. Jesus. He was supposed to defend his British Open title at St. Andrews in 2015 and he went out with his buddies a few weeks beforehand and played

soccer. They had a little kickabout and he busted his ankle and he was out for several months and he hasn't won a major since. I feel like the golf gods have looked at this time. That's a very reasonable penance time. He's paid his penance and now on this stage

at this moment, he comes on and this is his time to shine. I like Rory. That was my, on the podcast, my number one guy. The odds were brutal. They I like Rory. That was my, on the podcast, my number one guy. The odds were brutal. They're like 8.5 to 1 or 9 to 1 coming in and now they're just down to plus 340.

The odds are still not great but I think he's going to win. Any long shot wild cards for us? Not really. The most disappointing thing is Tiger Woods looks like he's going to miss the cut, and that's going to cost us some money.

We're sad. If I didn't have the joy in my life this week from Zach Wilson, who works in silence and lets success be his noise, if I didn't have that joy in my life, I would be extra sad about Tiger because Tiger had circled this tournament on his calendar. He really, as soon as he discovered that his leg, he was going to be able to walk again. I believe that he said, I'm going to get to St. Andrews. I'm going to play in that tournament.

And after what we witnessed with our own two eyes together at Augusta National, watching him limp around there and make the cut at the Masters and then follow it up by making the cut. He's never been the same since he made the cut. What we saw with our two eyes, he has been the same guy since that day, golfing. He made the cut of the PGA Championship also. I know, but I mean, he just... And he withdrew after he made the cut. But he looked very good and he practiced more than any other time since the car accident. And now there was a lot of enthusiasm for him. So I'm disappointed to not have him for the weekend. But it's going to be an incredible tournament.

The names at the top of the leaderboard are very sexy. So other than Tiger, Rory is the most casual golf fan interest guy left on the tour, would you say? Yeah. Justin Thomas gets a ton of love. And no, no, I think Rory, I think he's more. Well, George, George Spieth also has a lot of charisma and the way that he was on the scene.

I think people, he's still very recognizable and very popular. That scenario makes it seem like he could win another major, though. That's not fair. Who? Jordan Spieth. He can win another major. He definitely can win another major.

I know, but we know. I don't think he's going to win this major, but he could win another major. Yeah, we know. We probably know. I don't. He's lost my trust. Another guy.

This is Tommy Fleetwood. I finally didn't bet on him in the British Open. I broke my four years. I didn't bet on anybody. I decided, you know what? I'm wrong all the time and I'm out. Oosthu the Masters and he joined the Live Tour and his sponsors dumped him. So you don't know what kind of impact, if any, that's going to have. But there are some Live guys pretty far up the leaderboard. Lee Westwood's tied for fifth right now. Taylor Gooch is also tied for fifth. Dustin

Johnson is also tied for fifth. Those are three. And look at Ian Poulter who was booed on the first tee and Snap took his drive on the first tied for fifth. Those are three. And look at Ian Poulter, who was booed on the first tee, and Snap took his drive on the first, tied for 13th at three under. Bryson DeChambeau, tied for 13th at three under. Liv is showing out. And maybe it's just because it's Thursday, and all these guys will fade away.

But, you know, Phil Mickelson went around this golf course, shot even par, beat Tiger Woods by six strokes today. I mean, we might be in an alternate universe. I don't know what to tell you. So the live thing, is it bigger than you thought it would be? Much bigger. And it's going to continue to be big. We talked about this when we were together in Boston for the US Open.. Open. Yeah, you seemed surprised then that it was even bigger than we thought then, but now it feels twice as big as it did when we were in Boston. Because you made the great point.

There really hasn't been anything since we've been alive where a sport has gone through a disruption like this. I mean, we saw the USFL try and do something with the NFL. That was never a disruption like this. No, I mean, you know, we've had, we saw the USFL try and do something. That was never a disruption. The ABA was the closest, but we were so young at that point. We were kids, yeah. We just knew they had Dr. J

and we didn't understand why he couldn't be in our league, but we barely even knew who he was because there was no video of anything. Yeah, there's been nothing close to this. And it's about to get bigger yeah we we talked about this a little bit wait till donald trump hosts at his venue um at the end of august early september wait till that happens the only thing i can compare it to is when it seemed like the streamers were going to upend movie theaters and it was just like wow so so we're doing this

this is just how it's going to be now? And then the movie theaters made the dramatic comeback this year. And now, I don't know, it feels a little more stable. But I do wonder if this is going to lead to what we talked about in Boston, about if people perceive this lifting to be actually successful, for removing the Saudi element of this. Let me talk about that. Just the actual concept of, hey, here's a new league that's backed by a ton of money. Could that lead to a basketball version of this? Because I think basketball would be the sport

where it could happen. There was a lot of that kind of talk the last labor lockout, right? Yeah. In 2011, Kang and I, we did a whole basketball league. Like if some billionaires came in and just tried to do their own version of a league and, you know, cause you need what there's, there's like 50 really good to great NBA players. And there's probably like 20 legitimately famous ones. So if you grab five, could you start a league? Yeah. Sure. Would it work? Probably not. But find some stadiums, do some five-year leases, get a TV deal. I mean, the Amazon might take a dabble, right? We can think of some folks who have some money who might be interested in exploring the space. But that's the thing. With the amount of money that the rights are going to go to

for the next NBA, you're talking billions and billions of dollars. You could make the case Amazon or Apple is just better off creating their own league and giving the money directly to the players and doing it that way. Sure. I mean, what Apple just did with the Major League Soccer,

that play where they took over all of that broadcast. And I think ultimately there will be some combination with the Mexican League Soccer, that play where they took over all of that broadcast. And I think ultimately there will be some combination with the Mexican League. There'll be this North American soccer thing. And they're the first movers on it. I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, I wonder. I don't think it would work for basketball. I think

you'd have to get half the players. I think the fans would really hate it. But that's the funny thing is, the golf fans really hate this live thing. Now, it hasn't totally affected it because the live guys can still play the majors, which is the most important

piece of this. That's right. If you didn't have the live guys and the majors, this would be at another level of disgust. That's the chapter that's going to be written

from starting Monday all the way up until the first week of April in 2023. Well, for you, it's more golf and it's more things to gamble on. Which are two things you like. Two things that I like. It's true. And lots of villains in the Live Tour.

Yeah, we have golf villains now. When was the last time we had golf villains? This is great. A lot of hate bets. Well, Bryce is there. Patrick Reed is there. A lot of hate bets are out there. It's kind of fun. I enjoy that.

Wonderful. Speaking of golf, I'll be playing a lot of golf over the next few weeks. Hopefully with you at some point. House, great to see you. Happy summer. I hope the Wizards don't overpay for a crazy Donovan Mitchell trade. I don't think they will, but you'll be the first person I think of. It was good

to see you. Thank you for spending time with me. Thank you, BS. I want you to have a great vacation. Let me leave you with this parting words of wisdom. Please just work in silence and let success be your noise. I'm going to try to do that. Thank you. Thank you, Zach Wilson.

And thank you, House. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Dylan Burke as always. Thanks to Joe House. And look, I know I'm going to be gone for a few weeks,

but if you need some podcasts to listen to, go check out the Ringer Podcast Network. Man, we have some good ones. The Ringer MBA show is going to be humming. The Fantasy Football Podcast,

which has been fantastic the last couple weeks. They can help you prepare for your fantasy. We have some great pop culture podcasts. We're reacting. The Prestige podcast, the Reality podcast,

the Big Picture, the Watch, Bachelor Party, The Bachelor's going out. I mean, we have a million podcasts. Go check it out on theringer.com or just subscribe to them or follow them on Spotify. And you will have plenty of time to kill. I will see you sometime in August, sometime in the middle of August.

And we're from that point on, it's going to be football, basketball, hopefully a lot of celebrity interviews because I think we're going to be able to get some people back in the studio and we're going to experiment with a whole bunch of different stuff. I'm looking forward to it.

And thanks as always for listening. Stay tuned for next week. We're going to release with a whole bunch of different stuff. I'm looking forward to it. And thanks as always for listening. Stay tuned for next week. We're going to release our interview feed as well. And I'll have more details on that in this feed with a little promotional thing next week. So stay tuned for that. Enjoy the majority of the summer. I'll see you in August. I don't have

I don't have