The Bill Simmons Podcast - Steelers Dysfunction and an Anthony Davis–Ben Simmons Trade Idea With Kevin Clark and Kevin O'Connor | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 463)

Episode Date: January 2, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss the drama in Pittsburgh between the Steelers and Antonio Brown, whether superstar receivers are the key to a Super Bowl team, coaches with too long/short of a leash, and more (3:55). Then Bill sits down with Kevin O'Connor to talk about potential Anthony Davis trades, Kyrie Irving's season, the Wizards' best course of action, and much more (47:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast, the first of 2019, brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You know what's not smart? Enabling. Power-hungry ride receivers, Kevin Clark. That's not smart. You know what else isn't smart? Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, there's a smart way at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS.

They find people with the right skills for your job. Right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, let's talk about Project Blue Book. It's based on the true top secret United States Air Force investigations of the same name.

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slash Project Blue Book to learn more. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com the greatest website in the world as well as The Ringer Podcast Network where you can find The Ringer NFL show with Kevin Clark. What days are you taping now during the playoffs? We do a Sunday night and Thursday.

Okay. And you're going to be on Dual Throat with Ryan Russell this week too. That's what I hear. It's a media blitz. It's a Ringer media tour for Kevin Clark. He's coming up. So is Kevin O'Connor. We're going to talk Ben Simmons for Anthony Davis. Possible trade. Fake is Kevin O'Connor. We're going to talk Ben Simmons for Anthony Davis. Possible trade. Fake trade that we made up. And we're going to talk a lot

of NFL drama this week with Kevin Clark right now. But first, our friends from Pro Jam. All right, we're going to get to Kevin Clark in one second. While we were taping this, Super Dave died. Or we found out that Super Dave died. Bob Einstein, who was a friend of the whole Extended Ringer family and the Cousin Sal Jimmy universe. We did an Against All Odds podcast, me and Sal and Super Dave,

that we're going to republish on that feed if you hadn't heard it. He was one of the funniest people I've ever interacted with. Just a great, great guy. And we knew he wasn't feeling that great, but was very surprised to hear that news. But one of the all-time funny comedy dudes from when I was growing up. But more importantly, just a great guy and really funny. I've been around a lot of funny people in my day, which I've been fortunate in that regard. And there's like a handful of people who were just funny constantly, who were like

reading the room, playing off people, teasing them, making fun of them, who were just on all the time. And he was like the number one example in my head like that. He was just so funny. You just, anytime you're around him, you're just like laughing and was just a great guy. And he came on this podcast a couple of times. He came on it, the old one I had on ESPN, but the one we did with Sal, I think, was one of my favorites.

And we had to cut out like, I think probably 20 minutes of it because he kept telling these crazy jokes and he was just great. So we're going to republish that on there. Super Dave, we love you. Really sorry to hear that news. Anyway, here we go with Kevin Clark.

All right, the ringers, Kevin Clark is here. Playoffs are coming this weekend. Pittsburgh has hijacked the headlines. A lot of Pittsburgh drama. A really controversial piece by Seth Wickersham. 20,000 words about the fall of the... Oh, no.

ESPN didn't write anything. My bad. My bad. It's only when the Patriots have perceived tension are there 20,000 word pieces and a whole week of content on ESPN. I forgot. My bad. Sorry, Kyle. Didn't mean to get you fired up I forgot. My bad. Sorry, Kyle. Didn't mean to get you fired up.

Yeah, Steelers, dissension. It's an amazing story because, and this has happened a couple of times in the last maybe three or four years. First of all, this is the second trade request Antonio Brown has made this season. He made one in September that everybody forgot about. But everything in the NFL- And it wasn't in passing.

He threw it out pretty aggressively. This one, the report is he yelled, I'm done at practice. And people think that that was a trade request. But maybe it was just he was done throwing the ball up in Roethlisberger, which is apparently what he did. But the default in the NFL is nothing's a big deal. R-E-L-A-X, relax, all this stuff. And the Steelers have a nice combination of extremely dramatic people. Yeah.

I mean, it's all, it's very high school. It's very, everyone's got these aim away messages that are all like, they're feuding with each other. And it's really amazing to see in the NFL. It's very NBA, I think. I was thinking more Desperate Housewives circa like 2006. Like Ben Roethlisberger has one bad game against the Jaguars last year, and it's immediately, well, maybe I don't have it.

And any other quarterback is like, we're just going to put our heads down and grind. Be a man, be a leader. Ben has criticized pretty much every skill position player on the team in the last couple of years. Antonio Brown is obviously, even yesterday, Ben Roethlisberger called Le'Veon Bell a distraction, even though Le'Veon Bell has been gone for an entire year. Yeah. How's he a distraction?

He's not in the locker room. If you're distracted, that's on you, I think. Yeah. But he's not there. Antonio Brown is obviously a mess in practice. And so it's just a rare combination of combustible people and it spills out into the public. It's actually quite fascinating to watch. I have a lot of thoughts.

My thought is everybody's in the wrong here, probably, is my guess. It seems like a bad collection of personalities compounded by the fact that Ryan Shazier, who seemed like he had filled that defensive leader role for them and was kind of like the guy, and then he

goes out midway through last season. He's never going to play again. So you add that to then for them and was kind of like the guy. And then he goes out midway through last season. He's never going to play again. So you add that to then you have all of these kind of beta dudes on the other side. And Mike Tomlin, who is in that Pete Carroll camp of I can handle anybody. I don't care how big of a dick you are, but I can deal with it.

Alpha's everywhere. So a couple of things. Number one, I had a talk with Kevin Colbert, the general manager in the summer, and we were talking about the way modern football is going. And he did make reference to the fact that, and this is a football thing, that Ryan Shazier played so well horizontally

that he was going to be the key to sort of unlocking modern defense for them because it's all horizontal football now. Ryan Shazier was that. So just from a schematic football standpoint, the Ryan Shazier thing was massive for him from a schematic football standpoint, the Ryan Shazier thing was massive for him. You mean that linebacker

who can basically... Who can just go sideline to sideline, who can snuff out spread offenses, that whole thing. Like Kyle Van Nooy. Yeah.

Like Kyle Van Nooy. And so... But I kind of think that... Your point about Tom, when I kind of think that coaches building chemistry is a fake thing. I think that it comes from the players. And I think that there needs to be a Steelers player

who's an emotional leader who just tells everyone to shut up. The problem, I think, is that you get to the level of Ben Roethlisberger, you get to the level of Antonio Brown, and you're not going to listen to a linebacker, you're not going to listen to a defensive tackle or offensive tackle, whatever it is. And so I just think that there's probably no solving it. However, if I were the Roonies, if I were Kevin Colbert,

I would just ignore this. I would not trade Antonio Brown. So this is something Belichick figured out during the first five years with the Pats. And I'm not sure if it was by accident or when he had it, he realized that this was the key to everything is to have the veteran dudes basically run your team.

There's a reason when Willie McGinnis, say what you will about Scott Pioli's tenure in Kansas city. First thing he did was trade for Mike Vrabel. Yes. Because he knew that how important that was. The Patriots had in, they had Brewski, Willie McGinnis,

Vrabel. Then as those guys started to get older. Oh, and then Vince Wilfork too. Then as those guys started to get older oh and then Vince Wilfork too then as those guys started to get older Junior Seau came in for those two years

and then when the team kind of fell apart in the late 2000s they were missing those guys then they kind of had the second group of dudes which they actually drafted

and that was when I think post Hernandez draft you needed to make some changes. Yeah. I think they started really looking at kind of who they were drafting and that led to the second group, but then Brady's older.

And then the fact that Brady's the goat, I think really probably helps too. And you can bring in the Josh Gordon. Pittsburgh could not have brought in Josh Gordon. I think that would have been a disaster. I agree. And also, but the other thing is,

is that Belichick is so good at, at those low cost moves and then moving on from his mistakes in general. I think that would have been a disaster. I agree. And also, but the other thing is that Belichick is so good at those low-cost moves, and then moving on from his mistakes in general. I mean, I'm talking about guys like, you know, Chad Johnson. The guys he brings in... A lot of flyers. A lot of flyers where he's just like, this is low-cost, who cares? And he doesn't really make, he doesn't really go all the way on any of these guys.

Even Hernandez, fourth-round pick. They did sign him to a huge extension. Yeah, they did. Yeah. Initially, it was a flyer, it was a fourth-round pick. Sure, and then they sign him to a huge extension yeah they did yeah but initially it was a flyer it was a fourth round pick sure

and then they signed him to a huge extension yeah I forgot that and they had to go to a grievance because they tried how did that work with the cap

when you have somebody in a huge extension who murders people yeah they had dead money on it oh boy yeah oh boy

don't edit that out I want people to hear we need to learn from our by the way is there enough Aaron Hernandez content right now? There's three podcasts and 17 documentaries.

What more is there to learn at this point? It is an incredible story. I don't even think we talk about it. This is a strange thing, but I think that we now talk about it too much. But for a long time, we didn't talk about it enough. Yeah, the seesaw definitely flipped. We did not talk for like two years there. We kind of just swept under the rug i remember asking people who i knew who were connected to the patriots like

what was it like when that dude was on the team there everybody just stayed away from him yeah so i don't know maybe that's episode three you just talked to different guys on the team yeah didn't talk to him nobody taught he was in the locker room a surprising amount kind of afraid of him yeah there were certain times so the Patriots locker room is almost always empty and I remember he was there kind of a lot right um I don't know what maybe that was because they knew he knew everybody would just stay away from him I didn't really there were a lot of strange things with Aaron Hernandez and I was in I was in college when he was in Gainesville we were in college at the same time and you could always hear those sort of legendary Aaron Horandos stories.

The point is, every team has a couple chemistry wildcards. Seattle? To be clear, he's in a separate category. He's the worst case scenario. Okay, Seattle. Doug Baldwin and Percy Harvin got in a fist fight the week of the Super Bowl. Well, Seattle had Percy Harvin. I would say some of the defensive dudes that they had were wild

cards, but they tried to have it figured out. But that was alpha. The literal, Pete Carroll said this, alpha, alpha, alpha. That's what they wanted. They think that that was, you know, those guys push each other. I remember going to Seattle and talking to those guys about Earl Thomas. Earl Thomas would just say whatever he

wanted to say to a cornerback, and it was crazy, and they would scream at each other wanted to say to a cornerback. And it was crazy. And they would scream at each other. And they thought that was healthy. They merged meetings at one point in 2014, 2015, because they wanted to air it out. It was like the Festivus airing of grievances. They would just scream at each other.

They thought that was very healthy. This is Draymond Green's move, which I think has worn out everybody in Golden State now. Well, it wears people out. Let me freak out and then we'll make up. Do you know what you can't do when everybody's an alpha? You can't throw an interception at the one yard line in the Super Bowl. You can't call a pass. And also, by the way, the worst pass in your playbook.

Because that's the thing about that pass is that Pro Bowl Focus did this study. They ran that play six times that year. It never worked. And then you're going to run that at the one yard on the Super Bowl. The players did this study. They ran that play six times that year. It never worked. And then you're going to run that the one year on the Super Bowl. The players know this stuff. Kyle, does a tumultuous relationship where people fight and then break up and get back together, does any of that sound familiar to you? There's a light at the end of that tunnel somewhere, right?

Come on. 2019. Football. So I was thinking about the Antonio Brown thing. Okay. So there's two separate issues here. And I think you're right. The Tomlin thing is over there.

The Tomlins basically have been phenomenally successful as a head coach. And I think we kind of want it to be his fault. But the reality is they go somewhere between 10 and 6 and 13 and 3 every year. They've made the playoffs. I think four of the last seven years, which isn't great. I actually wrote down, uh,

he's had his, I mean, since they, so they made the super bowl in January, 2011, 2011 playoffs lost to Tim Tebow is a seven and a half point favorite. Run into a buzzsaw there. Nothing you can do about that.

Missed the playoffs. The next two years lost to the Ravens in 2014 is a half point favorite. Run into a buzzsaw there. Nothing you can do about that. Missed the playoffs the next two years. Lost to the Ravens in 2014 as a three point favorite. 2015, beat Cincy in a wildcard game on a last second field goal. That doesn't even, beating Marvin Lewis in the playoffs doesn't actually count. Barely beat Marvin Lewis.

It's been vacated. That was the closest Marvin Lewis came to a playoff win. And then they lost to the Broncos the year when Peyton Manning was basically, had no strength whatsoever in his radar. 2016, beat Matt Moore in Miami in the first round. I remember that. Beat Casey and Alex Smith in the second round.

Got killed by the Patriots. Last year, seven-point favorites against Jacksonville lost to Blake Bortles. So the only quarterbacks- Give up 45 points to the Jaguars. Give up 45 points to Blake Bortles. So the only quarterbacks... Give up 45 points to the Jaguars. Give up 45 points to Blake Bortles and the Jaguars. So the only quarterbacks they've beaten this decade are Andy Dalton, Matt Moore, and Alex Smith. A woozy Matt Moore.

A woozy Matt Moore, yeah, who got concussed. And Alex Smith. They've also lost to Blake Bortles, Joe Flacco, and Tim Tebow. That's this whole decade. The decade's almost over. It's 2018. There's a couple of things here. So number one is that there are schematic problems.

He was covering Keenan Allen a couple weeks ago with the damn linebacker. Like, let's get Mike Tomlin an internet connection to find out who Keenan Allen is. That was about as bad as a coach has been roasted on by smart NFL Twitter as they just rolled off these gifts of number 54 chasing Keenan Allen. That was terrible. And so it was real bad. But that's separate from the chemistry. I think the chemistry, as you said, is over there.

But I think maybe they need a defensive overhaul. Maybe they need a new defensive coordinator. I don't want to get into the defensive coordinator. Maybe he thought that Tyler Eifert is healthy and playing for the Bengals. There was that little mini scandal a couple of weeks ago. Talk to Stephen A.

Yeah. Stephen A. told him to watch out for Eifert. And Tyler Eifert are the two dominant tight ends. I love you, Stephen A. I'm just joking. And so, yeah, it's very strange to me. I think they enter in a weird spot. Roethlisberger and Brown combined

$55 million against Kaep next year. So that leads me to the second issue. I don't think Tomlin's the issue. I think Tomlin is successful enough. I don't think we're ever going to be fully happy with an NFL coach. And he's in the top eight. We don't want to admit it, but success-wise, he is. The chemistry issue's over here.

Now there's two other issues. One, Ben Roethlisberger. So what's he making now? Isn't it? He's making like a... Next year, he's going to make 23. Right. And he's got one more year on his deal.

So they may have to restructure. Pretty up and down, Ben Roethlisberger. Can light it up like he did in that Saints game where he can kind of turn it on for a half. He's got the veteran experience. I don't think he has a body that's going to age well over the next five years. He's not on the TB12 method.

He's not? I've looked into this. He's not doing it. He could be one of those that's over. Oh, yeah. Like, it's just like, oh, shit, Ben Rothenberg's washed up. I didn't realize. We're in totally uncharted territory with these quarterbacks in our aging curve.

Because it used to be you'd have your little peak at 32, 33, and then you'd go on a gradual decline. The only person who really had like this, you know, who's entered into this sort of modern era and has been productive in his late 30s is Peyton Manning, who had four neck surgeries. So we don't know when it's going to go, but it's going to go. It couldn't throw a spiral the last two years. It couldn't throw a spiral. And so we don't know when it's going to go. Breeze,

Brady, all of these guys. So we're just, you know, I think that if you're the stewards right now, and you were looking at the salary cap, Antonio Brown goes from $8 million to $22 million just next year in this off season okay if you trade him it goes down to eight i think and then the the new team picks up 15 it's like after july 31st something june 31st yeah and so you know i just think that you you you have to think long and hard about committing to rothlisberger for more than well so that's my question. I'm starting there.

Everyone's like, well, they got to get rid of Antonio Brown. It's like, are we sure? Are we sure the move isn't actually to think about can you trade Roethlisberger to a contender? It's the same cat pit either way. I would ignore it and go all in on one more year. With everybody. With everybody.

With everybody. I don't think you With everybody. With everybody. With everybody. I don't think you're going to get a better shot. I think it's premature to tear it down. I think you say, guys, figure this the hell out. I don't know what's going on. I mean, Antonio, again, Antonio Brown has done this before. He's gone AWOL three times, apparently, according to that Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article.

So I think you just, you're not going to get fair value. Here's the thing. going to get fair value. Here's the thing. You might get fair value for Roethlisberger though. Well, what's fair value for Roethlisberger? If it's a team that feels like it's pretty close. I don't know. And needs the veteran QB for three years. I mean, you think you're going to get three years?

The problem is they don't have a replacement for him because they've never drafted a QB. They have Josh Dobbs, Mason Rudolph. I mean, that's not, I don't have a replacement for him because they've never drafted a QB. Josh Dobbs, Mason Rudolph. That's not. Landry Jones was cut. I mean, there's not a lot, but they don't have a Jimmy Garoppolo. I don't think it's realistic to think

that you can actually win the Super Bowl with Ben Roethlisberger anymore if he's the heart of your team. That's my expert opinion. Okay. I think that with the right talent around him, you can't. But what's the right talent and. I think that with the right talent around him, you can't. But what's the right talent?

And didn't he just have the right talent? Well, I think that if you had, still had Le'Veon Bell under a decent contract, I think they've aged. Time has passed them by. Right. They just had their window and it didn't happen.

The fact that they had the killer bees and they didn't get to a Super Bowl is incredibly disappointing. They win a Super Bowl. I mean, last year was really the year where you had all the weapons. Everybody's under the right contract. They're 13 and three.

And then the Shazier thing. I mean, I think maybe the year before. Oh yeah, you're right. Well, the year before, they got killed by the Pats on that last round. Pats are good. That game wasn't close. I don't know if you look into this.

Pats are pretty good. I wonder if it makes sense to just get rid of everybody and just throw away next season. I think you do that next round. Pats are good. That game wasn't close. I don't know if you look into this. Pats are pretty good. I wonder if it makes sense to just get rid of everybody and just throw away next season. I think you do that next year. I think you do that after next year. All right. Well, this leads me

to my Antonio Brown question. Okay. Here are all the best wide receivers of all time by yardage. Okay. Jerry Rice, the GOAT. Doesn't count.

He's immune from the conversation. Larry Fitz, second, never won a Super Bowl. Free agent, by the way. Yeah. I still feel like he's going to have a cup of coffee with the Pats.

I've been- At some point in his life. I called two weeks ago. He says he doesn't want to go anywhere else. I think, I think Belichick called him on, on June 30th. It just always has made sense to me.

He's got some travel agency he's doing. And I think he's going to go to like, you know, he's going to go to, on a couple of vacations, then Belichick's going to June 30th. It just always has made sense to me. He's got some travel agency he's doing. I think he's going to go on a couple of vacations, then Belichick's going to be like, let's go. The Providence Journal can hire his dad. Where's his dad writing? His dad writes for a local paper in Minneapolis. He's very happy. He's in the Providence Journal.

He seems very happy doing it. He's in a lot of press boxes. Larry Fitz, no Super Bowls. Made one, though. Terrell Owens, no Super Bowls. Made one, though. Terrell Owens, no Super Bowls. Made one. Randy Moss, no Super Bowls. Made one.

Isaac Bruce won a Super Bowl. Wait, didn't Randy Moss make two? Wasn't he on the Niners, the Harbaugh Niners? Oh, I guess that counts. Are you bummed out that it wasn't just the Patriots that got him there? Tim Brown, no Super Bowl. Got there. Steve Smith.

Did he win? Was he on that Ravens team that won? I can't even remember. I don't think he was. I don't think he was. No Super Bowls. Made one. Because Gettleman is the one that cut him, and he came after.

Marvin Harrison won a Super Bowl and might have murdered a guy. As quickly as we can, get off of Marvin Harrison, not as an extra receiver. There was a rare gun that he owned. Let's not linger on this particular point. Google that story. That should be, instead of the 17th Aaron Hernandez podcast, we need a Marvin Harrison, what the fuck happened podcast.

Well, there's a significant difference, which is that Marvin Harrison is out and about. Walking the earth. Reggie Wayne, he's 10th all time receiving yards. Well, that's what Peyton will do to you. Andre Johnson, no Super Bowls. James Lofton, I don't think he won. Chris Carter, no.

Antoine Boat. You get the point. If we care so much about these receivers, but I wonder if it's more like fantasy league versus- Yeah, okay, so- Like talk me out of that point. Okay, so... Is it worth it to pay Antonio Brown $22 million a year?

I think that wide receiver has been overrated. I think it has been overrated. But I think now, the way football is set up, with the spread, with the modern offenses and all that stuff, the number one thing... So, pro football focus, they have a war wins over replacement thing. Yeah. And last year, Michael Thomas was the number one non. So pro football focus, they have a war wins over replacement thing. And last year, Michael Thomas was the number one non-quarterback

ahead of any defensive player. The reason being that first downs are so critically important and Michael Thomas is really freaking good at getting first downs. And I think that that's what teams are figuring out now is that getting first downs

on first and second down, not punting, those sort of things, keeping hold of the ball is the new equivalent of not bunting in baseball, not voluntarily giving up outs, just continue to have the ball. And so if you're a wide receiver who can just move the chains, as cliche as that sounds, if it's analytically proven, you can do that. You are as valuable as any non-quarterback in the league. You are very important. And yet the Belichick Patriots, since Moss left,

Gronk has really been the only all-pro receiver they've had. Right. But Gronk is, I mean, he's a unicorn. He was a unicorn. I mean, there's no one like him. See how he used past tense for Gronk, Kyle? Yeah, I know.

Are you there yet mentally, Kyle? Yeah, I'm not counting on him. It's all right. I mean, if he was considering retirement last year. He had a play in the Jets game. I watched the Jets game with my dad. Okay. And threw it to him, turned around, the guy missed him.

And now he's running in the open field. And my dad and I are going, no, no, go down. Don't get hurt. It's really terrifying. I think wide receivers bring another thing to the table. And I'm not saying all of them do, because I don't think DeAndre Hopkins has been like this. He seems like a great teammate.

No? Oh, no. I didn't know what you were going for. I think he is. I think Fitzgerald has been an awesome teammate. Oh, yeah. This isn't a blanket statement. It's just something that I think we've seen more often than not

is the superstar receiver is also me, me, me, me, me, me, me. What about me? What about me? I'm not getting the ball enough. What about me? And football is such a team-oriented sport that you have this one guy who you can put over here and he's the one selfish guy

and all he cares about is his stats and his numbers and all that stuff. But if the team framework isn't great and that guy's in there, I think it can go haywire. I would flip it the other way. It's really the only position in sports. There's really no other position like this where you're completely dependent on somebody else.

Completely dependent. Yes. If Antonio Brown does not have a quarterback and get him the ball, they are screwed. Their livelihood is at stake. We saw it with Larry Fitzgerald for five years. Odell Beckham was mad because Eli Manning can get him the ball, they are screwed. Their livelihood is at stake. Well, we saw it with Larry Fitzgerald for five years. Odell Beckham was mad because Eli Manning can't throw the ball more than 20 yards down the field. That's his right.

That's not fair. He can throw it like 22. But I think that's his right. If Odell does not have a quarterback who can give him the ball, his livelihood is literally at stake. His legacy is at stake. So I would complain just as much. I mean, if there was an editor here who didn't get my stories back to me in four days and it came back crappy, I would say, hey, this sucks. Luckily we don't have that. Are we living in a world where you haven't complained? Let's take a break. Hey, not to the media.

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I flew back and forth to Boston over the holidays and I downloaded this because we had done a couple of reads for it. And I was like, I want to check this out. The mini is really fun, especially like if you're trapped on an airplane, you're on the runway or something. You just bang, bang a quick one out, check it out. I even got my dad to download it. You can download it. Download the New York times crossword app at newyorktimes.com slash mini. That is the New York Times crossword app. All right, one last thought on the Antonio Brown thing.

It's interesting that the Patriots, after the Randy Moss experiment, have completely steered clear of like a marquee receiver type. And they've had chances. I felt like they had chances to even go for like a Larry Fitzgerald type. And for the most part, Belichick has tried to money ball the receiver position and done, you know,

these kind of second and third tier guys, even like somebody like Jarvis Landry, who I think they could have had a chance to potentially trade for last year. He just doesn't care. He feels like he can get by with whatever because he's got Brady running back by a committee. They just don't want to spend money on offense. I don't know if that's by accident

or whether that's like a real plan by them. I don't know what Belichick's thinking exactly. I talked to a guy yesterday in First Row I wrote in The Ringer today who basically said he thinks that there's a psychological hurdle when you have a veteran quarterback for any team, including the Patriots, where you think, well, I have this quarterback. Everything on this side of the ball is fine. Yeah. And that's what happened to the Colts with Andrew Luck.

That happened. You know, this guy blamed some of Kaepernick's problems in San Francisco with the fact that they didn't put anybody around him once he signed that contract. And so I think teams see quarterbacks as solving more problems than they actually do. some of Kaepernick's problems in San Francisco with the fact that they just didn't put anybody around him once he signed that contract. And so I think teams see quarterbacks as solving more problems than they actually do. And so I would think- I know the Pats were in that spot in 06 when they traded Deion Branch. Yeah, and so Belichick probably views this as,

okay, we have Gronk, we can get a guy like Josh Gordon on a flyer. There are a lot of receivers who can run routes and do different things. I mean, Troy Brown was hugely valuable. I mean, Edelman is a hugely valuable person. Edelman was good, but he was never Troy Brown. You know, I think that what they realized, I actually just remembered I had a conversation with someone within the Patriots a couple years ago, and I cannot believe I blanked

on this. So basically, they made the decision, and Lombardi's talked about it, a lot of people have talked about it, that inside receivers can be just as valuable as outside receivers, and outside receivers are way more expensive. Yeah. And a Randy Moss type who's going to come

on a low-cost situation from Oakland where he was mailing it in, that's only going to come around every couple of years. Maybe, maybe we're finding out that Amari Cooper was like that, because Amari Cooper basically admitted that he wasn't giving it his all in Oakland and now he's in Dallas and he saved Jason Garrett's job. Congratulations, Cowboys fan. Clapper. Yeah. And so I just think that there's, they sort of view, do you hear these stories from New England all the time?

They sort of view the inside guys is better than the outside guys. And I think that's slightly coming home to roost a little bit because you know the outside guys are quite quite good well and the other problem for the pats is they've tried to cut costs on speed so take flyers on speed guys and for whatever reason none of them have really worked out from all the second round picks the bethlehem johnson excuse me chad jack, Brandon Tate, all those guys, Cordero Patterson, and Dorsett. Running back Cordero Patterson. And Dorsett was another guy. He was a speed guy who's really kind of a fast slot guy,

but isn't an actual outside guy. So I feel like they've never found the right guy. What's always amazed me with Pittsburgh is how over and over again they've been able to draft these receivers. I think if you talk about like the Tom O'Neill legacy, the amount of receivers that they've found who are just competent to great, it's kind of incredible.

Starting with Mike Wallace, who's the forgotten guy. Yeah. But there's been like eight, right? Yeah. I even like the guys, the random dudes they have now, like Washington. James Washington. Switzer.

Those guys are... Hey, I want to talk about the Rooney rule. Oh, one last thing on Antonio Brown, quick. You can't say this because you're in the locker rooms, there'll be heat against you, so I'm going to say it. He just seems like a dick. First of all, all

the drama that he started, a lot of it seemed to be avoidable, and if you know anything about being on a football team, you know it's going to be a big deal. But I go back to the Dancing with the Stars when he was on that. And he was so desperate to be famous on that. And it was kind of when the Dancing with the Stars jumped the shark,

when Antonio Brown was on the show just desperately trying to be somebody. It reminded me of like what Rod Tidwell would have been like if he had been an actual professional athlete. Rod Tidwell would have had that Cardinals, but at a football game and then try to go on Dancing with the Stars that year, which makes me wonder is, is Antonio Brown Rod Tidwell? So as you said, I would get heat if I endorsed any of these takes. So I'm separating myself from that take and I'm giving my measured journalist take here. Great. I've been at Steelers practices.

I've been in training camp. I've been at practices in, you know, at their facility, uh, near the university of Pittsburgh and Antonio Brown practices differently than any other player in football. He on,

on the day, for instance, and I saw him in August when he caught a pass in in in drill lines he would you know kind of celebrate with the fans and and kind of do this kind of russell crowe and gladiator thing where he would swing around and he would get people hyped up which is really the antithesis of what football practice typically is now at the time i found it interesting i i think i compared it a little bit to sort of like, you know, Steph Curry or somebody who warms up in a way that is really interesting. But I can see how if you're James Washington or if you're Juju

or if you're Ben Roethlisberger, you're kind of like, get back in line. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you know, he has, unlike most players in the league, he has a lot of sort of his own friends on the sidelines. I think the day I was there, CBS wrote about it. The day I was there, he had a friend who basically, he's in charge of giving him water, which is different than most.

I need that, Kyle. I think that ended after- I should have got that for 2018. I need a water right now. I think that ended after the report, actually, but I happened to be there that day and I saw it. So I think that that just comes along with being a superstar. I was happened to be there that day and I saw it. So I think that, I think that that just comes along with being a superstar. I was fine with it, but I could see how, if you are a

teammate, you might take it the wrong way. Just the way he conducts himself in practice. Look at me, look at me, look at me. There's a little bit of that. I think missing, um, the last day of the season when your team has a chance to make the playoffs. And it's realistic that the Browns can beat the Ravens, which they almost did and really should have. They should have. They had four chances. They had it.

But the fact that he fucked that last week up, I don't know how you come back from that. I agree with your instinct to run it back for another year. But at the same time, that's really about as damaging as we've seen. And you tweeted a photo yesterday of him and Jimmy Butler, who are practice buddies.

And I'm like, wow. What goes on down there when that happens? Could you imagine being just a guy who's not one of those guys when those guys are together? Two guys who don't seem to understand team dynamics at all. So maybe that's what they talk about.

I want to talk about the Rooney rule really quick because we had all these coach firings and now we've ended up in a situation where there are three black coaches and one black GM and that's it. And this has been this alleged, I don't know, what's the right word? Push by the league over the last 10, 12 years. And the push has not worked. Tom Curran wrote a really interesting piece about all of these people requesting interviews

with Brian Flores, who's the Patriots defensive coordinator, who's black, who's had the job for one year, who's been pretty good. I wouldn't say he, I haven't been watching the defense and thought, oh my God, look at what Brian Flores came up with today. He's an upgrader of Matt Patricia.

He's an upgrader of Matt Patricia. But now there's a chance he's going to get hired. He's going to go on all these interviews. And Curran's point was, he's not ready yet. He's only run one half of a team for one year. And this is basically what happened to Steve Wilkes. But we've seen this over and over again, where people who aren't quite ready yet

are getting thrown into these job interviews or even jobs. My question is, I think they need to rethink the Rooney rule. And if we want to have more minority candidates for coaches, there should be a better infrastructure, which is led by people like Tony Dungy and Marvin Lewis and like a mentorship type thing, where they identify people who could be a coach like five, six years from now. And they build this program for them and really try, take somebody like Brian Flores and really try to give him extra leadership, extra mentorship, extra time with people who've been there before and try to build these candidates from within versus like grabbing somebody who's been at DC

for one year and just giving them a head coach job. Cause I don't think that's going to work. Yeah. So there's a couple of things. First of all, they have a minority internship coaching program just to get these guys in on the ground floor. Yeah. But that's the ground floor though. That's, that's helped a little bit. They've also have off season programs where they have younger candidates, not just minority candidates, but younger candidates who meet with, you know, John Elway and stuff. And I've actually been to a meeting where they did that at Wharton in Philadelphia and I saw it and it was fairly interesting. I think I agree and stuff. I've actually been to a meeting where they did that at Wharton in Philadelphia, and I saw it, and it was fairly interesting. I think

I agree with you. I think it's embarrassing for the league, how few minority coaches there are. I think it might be a media problem. When I look at it, everyone thinks that anyone who's ever met Sean McVay, all of a sudden Zach Taylor, his

quarterback's coach, is is getting interviews and just like you know i think right now there's a problem with adam gaze where adam gaze is apparently gets to pick his job well what does adam gaze ever done why isn't steve wilkes why isn't you know i i just think that there's we we we have this narrative now where there are guys who are getting second chances that shouldn't. I don't think Adam Gay should immediately get another job. I think that people like Steve Wilkes and Vance Joseph should have gotten more time to learn on the job. I just don't know.

I don't know. It's embarrassing for the league. I don't know why guys like Vance Joseph and Steve Wilkes were on such short leashes. What has Steve Keim done in Arizona to keep his job if he's the guy that hired Steve Wilkes a year ago? I don't understand. I have no idea. It seems like the GMs stay longer than the coaches, but the GMs decide they meet all these dudes and like Vance Joseph, that's our guy. And then it doesn't work. It's like Vance Joseph, he sucked. All right, we need another coach. It's like you

fucking hired Vance Joseph. Why isn't there more heat on someone like John Elway, on someone like Steve Kime, who just brings these guys in for two years or one year, they don't work, and then you get to keep your job? Why? Well, then we found out

that he tried to bring Shanahan back after a year of Vance Joseph. But the reason Vance Joseph didn't work is he wasn't ready for that job. Yeah. I look at somebody like Gase. What did Adam Gase do? Well, first of all, what did he do?

I don't know. But second of all, he actually was a really good quarterback coach. Like somebody like to be able to work with Manning and get what he got out of Manning when Manning was at like a different point in his career. And also to win over somebody like Manning makes me think like, all right, let me look at it from Adam Gase's side. I go to Miami at these huge contracts that, you know, Nadam Kong Su and people like that. And all the salary cap, I don't have a quarterback. I basically have to go all in on Ryan Tannehill. Who's as mediocre

as it gets. Then we dump all of these personalities. We bring in this other team. I actually think they might've overachieved on that offense team. That was like a 4-12 team. He didn't make Ryan Tannehill much better than Joe Philbin did. And we all agree Joe Philbin's a bad coach. But I'm saying I have no idea if he's a good coach. This is my takeaway from Adam Gase. The Vance Joseph thing, it just seemed like he got thrown in too soon. But with Gase, it's like that was a terrible job.

Those three years in Miami. Vance Joseph was Adam Gase's defensive coordinator., that was a terrible job. Those three years in Miami. Adam Gase is defensive coordinator. Miami. I don't know. I think a lot of this has to do with situation and where the team was, who you're following. Hugh Jackson's a terrible coach. I don't think Hugh Jackson needs another chance.

He was really bad and the team immediately got better as soon as he was removed from the equation. He was really bad, and the team immediately got better as soon as he was removed from the equation. He was bad. I don't know if Adam Gase and Vance Joseph are bad. I thought Anthony Lynn was bad last year, and he's actually been pretty good on the Chargers this year. I think Mike McCarthy might have been terrible and lasted for as long as he did

because he won a Super Bowl there at Rogers. But I mean, their lack of creativity on offense was kind of legendary. So I don't know. Basically, I think there's like seven good head coaches and every year the other 25 are hit or miss. You know who I'm more in on? I'm not all in on him,

but I'm more in on him from a minority candidate standpoint right now because of who followed him, Jim Caldwell. Only because he got that Lions team to respectability, and then he left and it became Matt Patricia's Lions, where Matt Stafford is one of the worst passers

statistically, you know, this season. What happened to Lovie Smith? Did he retire? He's at the University of Illinois. He's the head coach at the University of Illinois. But Lovie Smith of the University of Illinois. But Lovey Smith almost made a Super Bowl with Jay Cutler. I don't understand why he didn't get another job.

Well, he went to Tampa. He was the head coach of Tampa. Right. Yeah, and then he got fired. Because essentially, they thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job developing Jameis Winston,

which I don't think there is much developing to do there. Yeah, that's on Lovey Smith? Yeah, I think it might be on the front office. I do think Lovie had a lot of power to the point that I think he had a lot of say in drafting James Winston.

I would look at every coach who has succeeded in a real way, who doesn't have a job, and I would rather try to hire those guys versus some dude who's never coached before who you're getting probably two, three years before. Or going to college and getting someone like David Shaw.

Yeah, but he doesn't seem like he wants to come though. No, he doesn't. Just give him a lot of money. Cliff Kingsbury's getting head coaching job opportunities. He just got fired from a college job. What are we doing? I think it's the hardest of all the coaching, the professional sports coaching jobs is football by far. A lot of it's luck, injuries, quarterbacks.

Yeah. You're dealing with 53 dudes. You're dealing with an incredible amount of media pressure. You're dealing with just point blank, you need one of the eight best quarterbacks or you're kind of screwed and you need that dude to stay healthy yeah like frank reich seems like he's a good coach he was their second choice they wanted mcdaniel's mcdaniel's backed out in the last minute but if andrew luck if his shoulder got hurt again and the colts were 4 and 12 what happens to frank reich hey i have a question why is why are any teams seriously interested in josh mcdanDaniels after what he did last year? Yeah, it's like, I don't know. If I were, apparently the interest is real and I just don't know why you would do that.

He's really smart. Josh. He's really smart. He's a really good offensive coach. But last year he had a, he accepted a job and pulled out. I think he pulled out because he didn't think Luck was healthy.

I think there was, I think that was a mistake. I think he pulled out because he didn't think Luck was healthy. I think there was, I think that was a mistake. I think he got bad info. I think Belichick was feeding him bad info. Who's healthier right now? Andrew Luck or Josh McDaniels quarterback?

That throw, Kyle, we didn't talk about it. Brady missing Hogan in the middle of the end zone. Yeah, that was tough. That was tough to watch.

I thought that was going to kill my dad. I actually, I put my hand on my dad's shoulder. My dad made this noise I've never heard of Mick before. He was like, oh! It was like he was being suffocated in the nursing home. I felt so bad.

Before we go, so basically to wrap it up on NFL coaches, I have no fucking idea what to do, but I do think they should take younger coaches, especially the minority ones, and have some sort of mentorship program. That's a real thing and not just like lip service.

I agree. Because Brian Flores should be mentored so that two years from now, he's ready to really succeed as a coach. Or a position coach who's like Deuce Staley in Philadelphia, who's now worked under Chip Kelly and Doug Peterson. Yeah, great. Deuce. Yeah. Love Deuce Staley like why isn't he a coordinator next year and then in two

years he takes over a job i just i just feel like the the fast tracking needs to be um more thought i wonder if part of the problem is that the nfl is owned by old rich white guys maybe they don't care well i think part of it is that the owners make the decision to who to hire and they don't care. Well, I think part of it is that the owners make the decision who to hire and they don't know anything about football. And that's the problem. And then they outsource it to like, oh, we're going to give it to this old GM. And then they just, you know, some advisor, quote unquote,

they just hire their buddies or people they know, people they're close to. And then it just becomes this terrible feedback loop where nothing ever gets better. What do you think the best available job is right now? I would say the Browns. Browns. I think Green Bay.

I think the Browns are legit good. Do you give them a real coach next year and that team could win 12 games? They have a lot. And they have cap space. They have cap space. They have a lot of talent. I think John Dorsey's a really, really good GM. Their signature players, the cornerback they took Ward, Chubb, Miles Garrett, Miles Garrett, and Baker.

They're all on rookie contracts. That's like the best job in football. They have three years where they could really, when I was doing this sorry cap story today, people were saying they're the number one team positioned to win a Super Bowl in 2020, 2021. I think next year if they got the right coach.

Give me one thought on wildcard weekend. I don't want to steal from Rosillo on dual threat. I think that the matchup to watch is Bobby Wagner against Ezekiel Elliott. I'm just fascinated by this. Bobby Wagner has missed less than 1% of the tackles in his career. Saw the stat this week. Ezekiel Elliott leads the NFL in yards after contact, but like 50 yards. I mean, I just think that that's going to be kind of an old school. I think there's a bunch of different matchups

this week that are really fascinating, but I think that there's a lot more old school shit than we anticipate that's going to happen this week,

probably with the modern offense. I think that kind of matchup. I also think that the Chargers and the Ravens are so funny

because the Chargers are built to stop modern offense. Derwin James, pass rushers, Bosa, Ingram. And the Ravens are just going to throw some shit from them from 1972. And I love it. I absolutely love it. The last two teams to rush as much as the Ravens have in the Lamar Jackson era are from 1973, 1976.

And so that's the problem with the Chargers is they're built to stop a Kansas City and they're not getting a Kansas City. The problem for my beloved New England Patriots is if Indianapolis beats Houston, which I think has a very good chance of happening. And then Baltimore beats San Diego. And then Baltimore comes into Foxborough

and they run the ball 58 times for 316 yards and have the ball for like 42 minutes. That's my fear for the next two weeks. So the Ravens, even when they're crappy, have always played the Patriots. Always. They're never afraid. Doesn't matter the talent on either side.

They love playing the Pats. The Pats have a ton of respect for them. And the last time they played in a playoff game, the Ravens should have won. The Pats had to pull out a whole bunch of garbage gimmick shit just to get to 35 points. I think Belichick has the same mental, because he grew up in Baltimore and all that stuff. I think he's

the same mental block with Baltimore as he does with the Giants. Just too many memories. You think it's emotional baggage? It's emotional baggage. He loves Maryland, dude. He loves it. What else are you writing this week? I got a thing on Deshaun or the Texans coming on Friday.

Had a salary cap piece this week. Next week, doing a big thing on Patrick Mahomes. And then a couple other things coming down the pike. Patrick Mahomes, what team is he on? He's on the team

that's going to beat the Patriots in the UFC Championship. No, that's the team we want to play. On the road? That's a good matchup for us. Can we talk about one thing real quick? The only thing we have that's a strength on basically the entire team is the secondary.

I've become obsessed with the fact that teams can't win on the road in the playoffs. I think it's fascinating. There has not been a team that's played in the Super Bowl that's won a road game since 2012. It's not possible. And it's fascinating to me. And I think...

You're saying home field advantage is basically... Home field advantage is pretty much the BL end-all. I mean, it's amazing how many one-seats have gotten in

since the Kaepernick-Flacco year. The Flacco-Ravens was the last one, right? And Kaepernick the same year. They won in Atlanta. I mean, that Pats-Broncos, the year the Broncos

beat them 2018, we had the best team that year and should have made it. And there was some stupid game that we lost during the season. I can't remember. We should have had home field. Denver wouldn't have beaten us. 538 wrote a really good piece on this a couple weeks ago. And their theory was that they quoted a guy from the NFL,

does the stats of the NFL. Their theory is that just big calls, big calls go against the road team always. And so that's all that matters now. It's true. And my theory kind of aside from that is that it's such a passing league now. There's so many more passes,

so many more deep passes, so many more big passes in big spots, teams, you know, throw the ball on third down. Interference calls, you're talking. That the calls, all it takes is one huge interference call, one illegal contact that keeps the drive going on third down and you win the game.

And I think that's what's fascinating to me. I also think it's harder with, uh, if the crowd gets loud enough, it's got to affect the passing game even by like 3%. I agree. Maybe not 20%, but at least 3%. All right, Kevin Clark. Thank you. We're going to get to Kevin O'Connor in one second, but let's talk about Microsoft surfaced. If you need a device that helps you get stuff done, but is also perfect when you want to catch up on some fun, like streaming live sports or checking on your fantasy team, well, check out the latest member of the Microsoft Surface family, the new Surface Pro 6. Just take the keyboard off and use it like a tablet or snap it back on and use it like a laptop with up to 13 and a half hours of battery life and the new 8th Gen Intel

Core processor. It's everything you love about the Surface Pro now. Even more powerful, the new Surface Pro 6 from the Microsoft Surface family. And since we're here, don't forget about the Ringer Podcast Network. The NFL show is heating up. We got Kevin Clark and Robert Mays. We have GM Street with Mike Lombardi and Tate Frazier. We have a little fantasy football for Daily Fantasy during the playoffs, which is one of my favorite things to do. Check all of it out on the Ringer NFL show.

All right, Kevin O'Connor is here. He is fresh off going to Clipper Sixers last night. What the heck did I finish? You got to see the Sixers playing four and five offensively in the last three minutes in person. Yeah. Ben Simmons hit two big shots. He had thrown the ball off the back and had the right-handed

layup, but it seemed like for quite a while it was a bit of four and five, some power play happening. I'm glad you brought that up because this is a pet peeve of mine. Simmons, they basically clinched the game. Thornwell's back was to him. He threw the ball off Thornwell,

got it and got a layup. And if you slow mode it, he was totally out of bounds when he did it. And this happens every single time and the refs never call it. You have to reestablish position on the court before you can touch the ball or you're out of bounds. And for some reason they know how to do this on the half ball or you're out of bounds. And for some reason, they know how to do this on the half court,

but not out of bounds. So anyway, I keep watching the Sixers this year and it's been really interesting with the Butler component to it because I love the Butler and Bede combo. I'm not the first person who's come to this realization. I really wonder if Simmons, Butler, and Bede make sense long-term. And there's some other stuff, and I've talked about on the podcast about that. I really

think just Philly belongs to Embiid. It's very similar to the Curry-Durant thing in San Francisco, Oakland, where it's clearly Curry's team and franchise and city, and Durant's kind of the other guy. Well, and even besides that aspect, he's also the best player, right? I think that probably near consensus agreement that Joel Embiid is the guy that you're building around. Yeah. With his ability as a defensive anchor, an elite rebounder

and then obviously on offense, scoring from the post, scoring from outside from three granted he's not a great three-point shooter. The fact he can score anywhere on the floor and rack up, drawing fouls and his passing has gotten better, too, this season. Well, he's unstoppable seven feet from the basket. He's outstanding. And when there was a play that clinched the Clipper game yesterday

where he just got within five feet of the basket, and that was it. And they got him the ball fast enough that they doubled in coming time. And there's still room to get better, too. He's not done improving. His scoring efficiency on shots taken from the post is still low if you don't factor in coming time. And there's still room to get better too. He's not done improving. His scoring efficiency on shots taken from the post is still low if you don't factor in fouls.

So it's like as he improves over time, he should be even more deadly from that area of the floor because he's already very good factoring in. He's a foul magnet. But as his post moves improve

and his touch improves and his passing gets better, he'll be even more dominant as he gets better. The part he really needs to work on is defense. I just don't think he's a very good defensive player for what his height and his talent is. And it's amazing when I watch Sixers how often he gets challenged.

Guys go right at him all the time and are able to score on him. I think part of that is Philly's defensive system where they drop the big man defender. Yeah. And another part is the fact that they don't have many good perimeter defenders. You have Ben Simmons, who's a great defender. Jimmy Butler, who's an outstanding defender.

But other than that, I mean, J.J. Redick, you know, Marco, not Marco, they've replaced Marco Bellinelli with Landry Schammett and then Furkan Korkmaz, who... Little T.J. McConnell. T.J. McConnell. None of those guys. You think Vincent is a great defender? When he wants to be.

Yeah, I think he's up and down. When it comes to grading defense, it's, you know, regular season's long. You know, you're not going full throttle the entire year. I think he has the talent, but I don't know if he's...

I think he's an elite rim protector. Perimeter defense, I've talked to a handful of assistant coaches who they don't view him as a plus perimeter defender. He's probably a minus

in the eyes of many coaches in the NBA. But overall, he's still a great defender. The ability is there. So my point is, I always think you should move proactively on this stuff if there's a great opportunity. I keep looking at this Anthony Davis situation. They are not going to make the playoffs.

And if he had one five-game injury or something, all of a sudden they're like 17-27 or something. It could go south really bad. The way the West is set up, you could be the third worst team in the West and still have like 39 wins. They fixed the lottery system a little bit. I think they're going to end up with a top 10 pick this year.

It's a half measure, the lottery. Right. Adjustment that they made. So the Davis thing, which we wrote about on this website, and then Zach Lowe wrote a piece about it. It's become the dominant theme. Zach had one on the same day. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's become the dominant theme just because there's a shelf life on it. The Lakers have a six-month chance to trade for him before the Celtics are able to redo Kyrie's deal. And then this weird double super max, he can't have two super max guys on one team. With a designated player role. If you trade for a guy like the Celtics trade for Kyrie Irving, you're not allowed to trade for another one.

So in July they could, they have the most picks. Once Irving's deal is ripped up in July and he declines his player option, signs a new deal, then you're able to trade for Anthony Davis. I am in the position of I do not think they should trade Anthony Davis because if you do that, you should just

move the team at that point. New Orleans. If you can't keep Anthony Davis, just move to Seattle. But why though? Out of curiosity. If it comes to it where Anthony Davis is telling the front office, you know what? I'm probably leaving in a year. I want to be traded to T-Mex. I think what their franchise is set up to do is not succeed for a superstar

because it is as small market as you get. OKC is a small market, but it's really not. They're actually spending money now. They're spending more money this year than anybody in the league. They're sold out every game and it's a rabid fan base. New Orleans is not sold out every game. They have probably three reporters at every game.

They're in a football city that just doesn't really care. They have the best power forward probably of all time on their team and they're getting 10, 12,000 a game. I actually think his roster's pretty good. It's a solid fit this is not KG in 2005

Drew Holiday is one of I don't know the 10-0 12 best guards in the league Julius Randle is like a 19-9 every night Meritage when he's back is a guy you'd want if you're a playoff team even Alfred Payton has been pretty solid

when he's been healthy this is not the 2006 I don't feel bad for Anthony Davis if you're a playoff team. Even Alfred Payton's been pretty solid when he's been healthy. Yeah, Etan Moore, isn't that terrible? Like, this is not the 2006. Floater King, Etan Moore. Yeah, I don't feel bad for Anthony Davis. I don't think this is a terrible basketball situation. It's not. But I also think he's going to leave.

And my question is, why not get proactive? Why not try to get a blue chipper back? Does Ben Simmons for Anthony Davis make sense? For New Orleans. For New Orleans. For New Orleans. If New Orleans. For New Orleans. If New Orleans calls Philly and says...

And you're talking right now. I'm saying today. Today, okay. I'm saying, hey. It's not the summer. Right now you're talking. You know, the Lakers are sniffing around. Celtics, we don't really want to wait.

We actually think we have a pretty good team. Ben Simmons for Davis makes a ton of sense for both teams. Let's have the conversation. What does Philly do? Well, I think first, you know, New Orleans is the one that comes down to here. I think, you know, with Ben Simmons, there's very few players in the league

that you'd trade him for. A guy who's 22 years old, who's posting numbers that are Magic Johnson-esque at his age. You know, guys like Grant Hill have done this. Penny Hardaway. There's not a lot of guys that have done what Ben Simmons has done at his age. You know, guys like Grant Hill have done this. Penny Hardaway. There's not a lot of guys that have done what Ben Simmons has done at his age, numbers-wise,

never mind his defense. And he's able to get better. Third year of his contract, so you have him under control for this year and the next two, basically. Yes. There's not a lot of guys who trade Ben Simmons for him. Davis is this year, next year, he's gone.

Davis is one of them if you're trading from Philly's perspective. For New Orleans, it's an intriguing basketball fit, right? Ben Simmons, you put him on New Orleans and Alvin Gentry's high tempo, high throttle system. You could build around him. He becomes Magic Johnson. Right? You know, you could.

That's fascinating to think about. If you build around Ben Simmons. You put him, Drew Holiday, Meritage, Julius Randall, and a bunch of not terrible swing men. Yeah, then you're trying to invest in forwards, you know, and wins and three-and-a-guys around Ben Simmons. You get Simmons in an expiring back. Meritage comes off next year.

You have a chance maybe to go and invest in more free agents and whatever. And you basically have two-and-a-half years of Simmons instead of one and a half years of Davis and if the Simmons thing doesn't work out by the way you can flip him a year from now that's the other thing well he'll be a restricted free agent in 2020 so so then you would match any offer you could flip him in February yeah if you wanted you could give it a year-long stint and then maybe you trade him I don't know the Clippers the Lakers. I think here's why you need to wait if you're New Orleans. I think you need to wait for Boston this

summer. You need to wait for LA to be willing to give more. You need to wait for whoever gets the number one pick, whether that's the Knicks or whether it's Phoenix or somebody else. You need to wait to see how all that shakes out because with Ben Simmons, he's probably the best asset that could theoretically be offered. However, he's also another clutch sports client. And what you're dealing with now with Anthony Davis, could four years from now, you'd be dealing with the same thing with him where Ben Simmons is a guy, he's clutch sports. He is somebody who is in LA any chance he wants, any chance he gets. He's someone who, it's not a bad thing, loves limelight.

That's okay. You know, you could be dealing with this again in four years, whereas with some of the other guys. It's less than four years. Well, I mean, until like this trade conversation starts.

Like if he signs a four-year max deal in 2020. That's great. Of course it's great. But what I'm saying is, now I have my guy locked up for three more years. If you're in New Orleans, you don't want to deal with this in three, four years. You want to deal with it in eight years. So,'m saying is if you're in New Orleans... Now I have my guy locked up for three more years. If you're in New Orleans, you don't want to deal with this in three, four years. You want to deal with it in eight years or longer.

If I'm in New Orleans, I just want somebody that justifies me staying in New Orleans. I mean, I think... If I don't have a star and I'm in New Orleans, I might as well not even be in the league. Of course, but from New Orleans' perspective, is there significant risk in losing that guy compared to someone like Brandon Ingram with a bunch else? Like a lot of extra picks, other guys like Kuzma, Josh Hart.

Was Ingram in the same draft? Same draft in 2016. So why aren't I in the same issue with him? I mean, I just think it's a different conversation with Ben Simmons. You're talking about the person. Yeah. Somebody there's already that chatter about.

But what if I'm offering him a four year, the most money I can possibly give you and you don't have to worry about money now until 2024? Oh, I mean, you have him until 2024.

What I mean is at that point, 2023, 24 season, you could be in the same exact spot with him then wanting to leave New Orleans, another clutch client,

a guy who's already the LA stuff. But then maybe I trade him in 2022. Maybe that's how they have to think. We rent these dudes for four years and then we flip them into a younger version of the dude. This sounds like some Florida Marlins early 2000s stuff

where they just recycled teams, right? To me, the want a championship, change the entire team, win another championship. Nobody has ever really figured out how to do this with trading a star. I think what's funny is the malign Timberwolves trade of KG

I actually thought was a good trade because I was a huge Al Jefferson fan and I do feel like if you did his career 10 times, we probably got the worst version of it. He had a couple bad injuries. I thought Al Jefferson, I mean... That was a really good get for them.

There was a point where there was like the Al Jefferson versus Dwight Howard conversation. It wasn't real. Dwight ended up being a much better player. It was a short little stint where it was like, oh, geez, Al Jefferson, could he be a 25 and 12 guy? And he didn't, you know, he was that, but he was for a short while.

But the motto of that trade where you're getting a young blue chip possible all NBA guy down the road with a lot of picks and some cap space and stuff like that, that's the best case scenario of that trade. I think what New Orleans ended up with kind of

and we all went nuts, Buddy Heald and an unprotected lottery pick basically for Boogie. That was a pretty good haul. It was a risk they had to take. I think with the Davis thing, you either have to say publicly right now, because it's just going to be a story all year

and it's going to be people like us talking about it. It's going to dominate the headlines. Draft night when the lottery happens, if the Knicks win it, it's going to be, well, should the Knicks trade the number one pick for an Anthony Davis trade? Everything that happens from now until actually something actually happens, a the Knicks win it, it's going to be, well, should the Knicks trade the number one pick for an Anthony Davis trade? Everything that happens from now until

something actually happens, a trade happening, it's going to be through the lens of Anthony Davis. So, if they came out right now, and this is the problem with, part of the problem with the Pelicans is this franchise was thrown together by David Stern. One of the worst things that he did the last 10

years that he was the commissioner, he was just trying to save basketball in New Orleans, which was a noble thing, but gave it basically to the Benson family at a huge discount at the last minute. And they're not running it with football people. Mickey Loomis, who's also the Saints general manager or whatever, he runs both franchises. It's run by Benson's widow. Del Demps is there. It's amazing that he's still there since he's done some of the dumbest things

we've seen this decade of any NBA GM. And they're just a mess. If they were run by somebody who was good, that person would come out and be like, look, we're not trading Anthony Davis. If we trade a generational superstar, we might as well not have a team. So we're not doing it. And if he wants to leave, go look at your roster. Your roster is actually pretty good. Tell us now if you want to leave

and we'll trade you. Otherwise, we're keeping you the whole time. But if you don't trade him and he walks, that's the ultimate worst case scenario. But I'm saying flip it on him and say to him and make it public and be like, we don't want to trade you. So you're saying- Do you want to leave? Tell us right now. But then you're essentially digging your own grave if you do that, though. They're digging their own grave anyway. I mean, he probably wants out anyway.

Then trade him. I mean, yeah. That's about the timing of the trade. I think summer's probably the best time because you can use Boston as leverage. I'd rather have Ben Simmons

than anything Boston can offer unless they put Tatum on the table. Could you get Ben Simmons in the summer still though? Or if you're Philly, are you giving Ben Simmons right now?

So this is, I wanted to talk about this part of it. Let's take one quick break. Hey, let's take a break to talk about the Ringer NBA show. We are basically going five days a week now. It's take one quick break. Hey, let's take a break to talk about the Ringer NBA show. We are basically going five days a week now. It's like four and a half. Sometimes we'll have five,

sometimes we'll have four, but we got He Check with John Gonzalez and a cast of Ringer characters that's going up on Mondays. Tuesdays, the mismatch, Chris Vernon, Kevin O'Connor battling. Group chat is usually Wednesdays, sometimes Thursdays. Chris Ryan and a host of Ringer people. We'll have some sources to say with Julia Lipman and Chris Ryan in there and then on Fridays. The corner three,

Jonathan Charks, Kevin O'Connor, Danny Chow, breaking it all down. As we head toward the lottery here, we're going to mix up a little NBA with some college stuff. But check all of that out. I might even pop up there every once in a while. Also, while we're here,

let's talk about the NBA watch of the night really quickly. ESPN tonight, the Celtics, who we're going to talk about in a second with KFC, they're on ESPN tonight playing the Timberwolves in Boston. That is an eight o'clock start. And I look forward to throwing the remote control and pounding my fist against the coffee table. Check it out on ESPN. Remember, if you want to watch every NBA game, subscribe to NBA League Pass on NBA.com, Amazon, or your local cable or satellite provider. Here's why I think it makes sense for Philly right now. Davis, Butler, and Bede.

I think they could win the title. You put JJ out there, TJ McConnell. You get some buyout point guard that they'll get in February, whoever that is. Trade for Jeremy Lin, something like that. You get two buyout point guard that they'll get in February, whoever that is. Trade for Jeremy Lin. Yeah, you get one more buyout. You get two buyout guys like they did last year. I think the league is winnable right now. And I'm

watching what's happening with the Warriors. They'll figure it out. It's like, I don't know if they're going to figure it out. I think Draymond is a completely different guy than he was three years ago. Clay Thompson's had a below average year for him. The Klay stuff is weird. The Klay stuff's weird.

He's having a bad year. It's like him talking to his ham, I missed you. Yeah, he's just not playing well. Don't expect that from Klay. Jarebko is like way too valuable for them. The McCaw thing, I think for whatever reason

that played out, I think that's been really bad for them because I think he was the young wing that they need. And I just think they're beatable. And I think the league is just really winnable. Milwaukee's never been in a spot before of trying to win four straight playoff rounds.

Boston's a mess. Toronto. I don't trust Kawhi or Kyle Lowry to be healthy in May and June. And Philly would have more top end talent. And Indiana is probably, you know, the old Depot knee is the big question for them, but the way Indiana has been playing in the last three weeks, I think they've, they have to be

thrown in the conversation. Turner was somebody I didn't even want to put in my trade value thing. And now I think he's going to make the top 55 when I do the next list. Cause he is like reinvented himself as a defensive dynamo. Yeah. He's I mean, defense has always been Turner's thing, but he's really, it's manifested for him on that end of the floor of the season. So if they got Davis, first of all, what would it take? I think it's, I think if it's Simmons and the Miami pick and an expiring for Davis,

the Miami is unprotected in 2021. Maybe you throw in your own pick too. I think New Orleans has to take that. Today. Yeah. You call them and say, you've decided three hours. Here's our offer.

I mean, if that were offered today, I think if you're New Orleans, you have to escalate things. You need to start calling the Lakers. You need to start calling these other teams with high draft picks. It's basically the Lakers. Yeah, pretty much.

It would be fascinating if that were actually offered because I think that's something that's acceptable despite everything I said earlier, right? With the concerns about, you know, living through this again four years from now with Ben Simmons wanting out like Davis might this summer. Despite that, Ben Simmons is

one of the game's greatest young talents at 22 years old doing things that we've rarely seen. And for Philadelphia, having a front court like that, and you mentioned it against Golden State, I think Philly, more than any other team in the East, or even in the West for that matter, if they develop the way they can,

even with their current roster, with their size, with Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons, that could present issues for Golden State because they love to play small in the playoffs with Draymond at the five, Katie at the four, sometimes even with Katie at the five. You can't do that against Philly. Right now, even, with Embiid and Simmons in their prime.

They're not there yet, but in their prime, you can't play small. Golden State's not guarding Simmons in an entire series. So if it's Embiid and Davis, Davis is a guy who can both protect the rim and defend an elite level on the perimeter. And play inside out with him. Yes, he's not exposed there,

and he can play inside out, as can Joel Embiid. So with those guys, they both have size and the ability to play inside out on both ends of the floor, particularly Davis, of course. I look at it as a Celtic fan. If that trade happened, I'd be like, holy shit, we have no chance against that team. What, Tatum's going to guard Anthony Davis?

What the hell would the Celtics do in that scenario? If Davis and Embiid were to stay healthy for the next five, 10 years, where does that front court rank? Like all time. That's an all time, potential all time great front court. Yeah, he stayed way healthier than I ever imagined. But yeah, you're talking about

one of the four best guys in the league with one of the eight best guys in the league and probably the best at their positions. So... They would still need a point guard. I mean, maybe McHale and Bird, but I guess McHale was really powerful or Bird was small forward.

Still front court players. Samson Olajuwon? Will Chamberlain and Nate Thurman were on the same team that made the finals once. It doesn't happen. Robinson Duncan. Robinson Duncan. That's a great one. Robinson was kind of at the tail end there in the late 90s, but they won the title with that combo. And it actually reminds

me of that a little bit, the Robinson Duncan thing, because Robinson had the ability to slide out I just think if I was Philly I would go for it because Davis being available, you guys talked about this you did a ringer NBA show right before you did it right after

Christmas and somebody made this point about how Kareem became available in 1975 and it was like point about how Kareem became available in 1975. And it was like this generational fluke that he became available. And I think Davis is this generation's version of that. If he becomes available, KG actually does not qualify for this because by the time they traded him, he'd already had 12 years. He was at the tail end of his prime.

And even despite the stage KG was at, it's very rare these guys become available at this level. This is like getting KG in 2002, you know? Yeah. Or it's like when Jason Kidd became available because he had a domestic violence incident and New Jersey was able to trade for him because of that right as he hit his prime. And Jason Kidd's not the player that Anthony Davis is.

So I guess my big point is, I have two big points. One is that if I was New Orleans, I'd force the issue or else they're going to be haunted by this story the whole year. I would put the onus on him to tell them what he wants them to do. And then the second thing is, if I'm Philly, if I can upgrade from Simmons to a generational power forward, I'm just doing it. I'm not even thinking about it. Because I'm not convinced he's staying there.

So you're not worried about him leaving if you're Philly? You wouldn't worry about that? Davis leaving. Davis, yeah. I mean, that's going to be a question with no matter who deals with him except for maybe LA if he leaves an Embiid Butler situation

and those guys are healthy that's fucking lame to go play with LeBron I don't see him I wouldn't see him that's the potential next mini dynasty if it's

if it's Embiid Davis and Butler and I think Butler needs to be the third guy if you're gonna win a title right now in Philly he's the second guy and weirdly to be the third guy if you're going to win a title. Right now in Philly, he's the second guy and weirdly Simmons is the third guy

and I'm not sure that's going to fly because in the playoff rounds, I think Simmons is just going to be over in the corner and it's going to be Butler deciding what they do in the last three minutes of games with Embiid. He could be in a playmaking point guard-esque role. Yes. Jimmy Butler in that situation where

if you have a complimentary point guard, like we mentioned a Lynn type of point guard earlier, if you have someone like that, Butler's going to be the guy handling the ball. That's a lot to ask. That's a guy who's never really been in that. You get to this higher, higher, higher level and you get into these last

couple rounds, now you're going against the best offensive players of like the last 20 years. You're going against like LeBron and Durant and Curry and James Harden. I just don't think Jimmy Butler is as good as those guys offensively. And if you're going mano a mano, I need somebody better. This is, by the way, this was the issue the Celtics faced in the Cavs last year when they should have beaten the Cavs. But ultimately you're going to get to a point

where it's like game seven and it's like, all right, it's mano a mano. Who's your best guy? And this is why the Celtics can't be counted out this year because of Kyrie. Because Kyrie can get to the level

of those guys. By the way, I have a quick Celtic point and then we get to go. Kyrie is getting a lot of positive press and a lot of positive comments about how well he's playing. The statistics have been great.

Some of the best basketball of his life. They're like, why isn't he an MVP candidate? I'm going the other way. Really? I don't think he's doing enough. So you want more? Yeah.

You know what I want? I want what James Harden is doing for the Rockets right now from Kyrie. Because I think the Celtics situation is at that point. I watch way too many Celtic games. The amount of times they've fallen behind by 10. The amount of times they just get demolished for like eight, nine straight minutes. They're always coming from behind. And then there hits a point where Kyrie's like, all right, I guess I'll just,

I guess I'll clean up everybody's mess. And he's just the fucking best guy on the court for five minutes. I think he's got to start doing that. I want him to have his stretch where he's like, oh, did you see Kyrie Irving? He's averaged 35 a game for the last 12 games. It just doesn't seem like he wants to do that.

And I think that's the biggest problem with this team. It's like, he is by far the best guy on this team. This is not a democracy. This should not be Marcus Morris. It is with Brad Stevens. Yeah, but that's wrong. That's the wrong, that's my point. So it's Brad Stevens' fault then,

the president's fault. Maybe it is. But maybe it's Kyrie's fault because I really think Kyrie's trying to do the Isaiah Thomas late 80s, I'll get everyone else involved. And then the last five minutes I'll get involved. I actually think that's wrong. to do the Isaiah Thomas late 80s. I'll get everyone else involved. And then the last five minutes I'll get involved. I actually think that's wrong. I think he should go James Harden. I think it's tough for him to go James Harden though. Physically?

I mean, one of the things that makes Harden have the ability to have to score 40 points per game in December like he did is his ability to get to the line, draw free throws, absorb contact, finish around the rim. Kyrie's more of a finesse finisher. Harden is one of the best players ever at creating contact, absorbing contact. I know people get annoyed with the fouls, but I mean, regardless of personal feelings, it's true. He's outstanding at manipulating defenders.

I despise watching James Harden. And it's become one of those things where people get mad now. It's like, well, you just don't like basketball. It's like, no, you know what I don't like is one guy dribbling 40 feet from the basket as his 14 minutes stand there and just rinse, lather, rinse, repeat over and over again. I don't enjoy it. I'm sorry. I recorded the Ringer NBA show before this with Chris Vernon.

And we had like 10 minutes arguing back and forth about James Harden. It's successful. I respect it. I appreciate it. I just don't personally enjoy watching it. I don't, it's not the kind of basketball I like. I'm sorry. It's like I said to Chris to each their own, you know, I, I personally love watching James Harden and I understand the, the free throws can be annoying. And sometimes I wish he would flail and flop a little bit less, but a little bit less. That's all he does. But it's like a fish, but he's also

a technician. I mean, his ability to use his body. I mean, that game. James Harden's amazing. His footwork is amazing. The ball handling is. His craft, the amount of time and effort that he's put into what he does. I completely 100% respect it.

Do you remember that game? I just don't enjoy watching it. Do you remember that game with the double step back against Utah, which was clearly a travel that went uncalled? The play after that, he, on the other side of the floor against Ricky Rubio in a one-on-one situation,

Harden put on a little shoulder shimmy shake that made Ricky Rubio fly back three, four feet, which gave Harden the space to unleash a step-back jumper that iced the game. Those are the moments that I wish were given a little bit more recognition instead of some of the travels

or the drawn fouls because there's so few guys that can use their body like Harden does to just manipulate really good defenders like Rubio to create space for his step back jumper. One of the best shots anybody has in the league right now. I love watching him. Kyrie

this year is taking 18 shots a game. He's 49%, 41% from three, 85% free throw, six and a half assists a game. His usage rate is, where is it? His usage rate is 29.5. What I'm saying is I'd like to see him shoot 22 to 23 times a game. I think that's fair. I wouldn't argue that.

Just one more shot a quarter that isn't going to fucking Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier or whoever else. You don't like Terry Rozier pull up threes? I can't take it anymore, Kevin. I love what he did for the team last year.

It was wonderful to watch. Except for the game seven. Yeah, but he fell off there. I understood why that happened though. He wasn't really meant for that moment. No. Steven's turning this into a democracy. And the one thing he never wants to do is criticize somebody for their shot

selection. He'll just take them out. He won't yell at them. They'll just come out of the game. That's kind of how he punishes them. It's a, it's a form of, I think a negative punishment.

Like it's just removing them from the game. But I mean, the problem is everybody in this team takes terrible shots and you just, you'd be constantly removing everybody. If people are going to take bad shots in this team, I'd rather it was Kyrie. For sure. I mean,

Irving should shoot more. That's always been one of my criticisms of Stevens is like, sometimes you just need to feed the guy, feed the guy and funnel the ball his way. And with Irving, I think he's somebody that should shoot more. But I think doing the hard and things really tough, though, for him because he doesn't get to the line.

But you know what I mean, though. Of course, yeah. I think Irving should shoot more. So Kyrie, when he was on Cleveland the last year, was 19.7 shots a game. And he put up 47%, 40 from three, 90 from the line. And his usage rate that year was 30.8. But my point is, why is he taking-

That's the start of the Butler, right? Huh? This Kyrie Irving point started with Jimmy Butler, right? I think. What do you mean? When we pivoted to Irving. he had LeBron James on that team I thought when he was coming to Boston I thought he was going to take more shots

and by the way when they clear out for him guess what he scores he gets layups he gets assists for people I don't know I want this to be more of Kyrie's team. That's one of my New Year's resolutions. I know you did New Year's resolutions for the ringer NBA pod. I want Kyrie to take more of this team because he's honestly one of the best offensive players I've ever seen in my life. He is breathtaking to watch. He's one of the best

below the rim finishers ever. I mean, he's take the clutch of shots against the best defenses and the biggest moments. Irving's outstanding, and he has been for a long time now. I think he's capable of more. I look at it as more as that's on the coaching staff to empower him more and funnel more of the offense through him because right now it is more of an equal opportunity type of system. Which I hate. I mean, it has its benefits.

I don't think you hate it. It's just maybe with Kyrie Irving, you wish there was a little bit more for him. Jalen Brown is taking 10.6 shots a game, which is 7.4 less than Kyrie Irving. Quite a lot. I would give all of those shots to Kyrie Irving. I heard Danny was saying how-

But you can't devalue your asset in Jalen Brown if you're talking about Anthony Davis trades. Well, I heard Danny say saying... But you can't devalue your asset in JLB if you're talking about Anthony Davis trades. Well, I heard Danny say that he feels like when the three-point luck shifts for the Celtics, they're going to go on a tear. And I agree with that to some degree because it's just been one of those seasons. They get really good shots and they miss them.

I still think they took too many. I think they take too many bad shots. Yeah, I'm writing an article right now about the Spurs tomorrow and how they are one of the most efficient teams, despite taking by far the most of it, range numbers and the fewest three pointers. So let's it's with them.

It's a little, you know, it's unique, but with Boston, I do feel like they do take too many early mid range shots in the clock. The shot selection has been bad. And the other thing is the rebounding.

They just don't get big rebounds today. I think. You mean offensive rebounds or just, yeah, they don't protect the boards. And it's been a recurring theme with the Stevens lineups because they're always a little smaller, but it seems like over and over again this season, there's been these tipping point plays where if they just gotten the rebound, the game could have gone differently. And the other team always gets it. They give up big offensive rebounds late and they don't get offensive rebounds for themselves.

If you're ranking finals contenders in the East, where would you have them right now in those top five group? I think from a talent standpoint, I would have them one. But from a what I think is going to happen standpoint, I could see them losing in round one unless they start fixing stuff.

Really? Well, you look at it. Round one. Hayward's a shell. Hayward's a shell. Yeah. He was 0 for 6 in 25 minutes in that Spurs game. It was awful.

It was brutal to watch. He had a play, I think, in that Christmas Day game where I think he missed a layup. But in his Utah days, full health, pre-injury, he would have yammed that. Hayward could dunk on people. Well, he also, he'll get into the paint, and he's looking to pass because he doesn't want to bounce off people or go up in the air

in traffic or whatever. And the other teams know that now. So when he's in the paint on a drive, they're all playing for him to not shoot. Hayward's playmaking has been really good, to be fair. Well, he was in the Memphis game. Yeah, he's a facilitator, but this is not the guy that they were paying $30 million for. It's a guy

who's fun to play with. This is somebody who's supposed to finish plays, and I feel bad for him because you look at Paul George right now. I think Paul George has a case to be first-team All-NBA right now. It took him four years to really recover from that injury. Gordon Hayward, he might not be the guy we want him to be first team all NBA right now. It took him four years to really recover from that injury. So Gordon Hayward,

he might, he might not be the guy we want him to be until 2020. George right now, one of the game's elite two way players. He's playing. He's a legitimate first team all NBA, right? Yeah.

I mean, he's probably playing better offense than he ever has. And his defense is, you know, for that team, number one defense in the league without Robertson right now, George is just bouncing. I think he's having a better season than Kawhi.

Because he's played every game. Played more games, yeah. I think for a hack during that end, that's fair. Then LeBron gets hurt. I would have Durant first team home NBA, but I think George has a case. I mean, Giannis needs to be there as well. Giannis is in.

Giannis is the MVP. Giannis is averaging almost 13 rebounds a game. Unbelievable. That is like the stat of the year. Yeah. He's a small forward. I was looking at the Celtics shooting. Is Giannis your MVP right now, right?

Yeah. Yeah, easily. The Celtics have Hayward's 31% from three. Jalen Brown's 28% from three Jalen Brown's 28% from three they've taken seven and a half threes a game all of those have been open

they just missed all of them Marcus Smart is 32% from three and then Baines is 32% and Ojale is 29% they just have a lot of three-point shooters that are wide open missing shots. So that's the other thing that needs to get fixed.

A lot of average three-point shooters too. But Jalen Brown wasn't average last year. No, he wasn't. I don't know what happened to that dude. I think the question might actually be what happened to him last year, right? Was it a fluke? That might've been the one season

where his shot was great. It's like, you know, we've talked about, you mentioned Draymond Green earlier. We've talked about this in Slack before. I think with Draymond, he had that one great season shooting the ball in 2015-16 where he was at 39% from three.

But for the rest of his career, I think he's around 31-32% from three. So this is a career-worst season for him shooting the ball. But looking at that 15-16 season as what he should be, I think that's more of the outlier. So for Jalen-16 season as what he should be, I think that's more of the outlier.

So for Jalen Brown, we're going to find out, was last season an outlier season for him? Or is his high school and college production, rookie year, and third year production more the real Jalen Brown as a shooter? And I think that's probably the case, but he could move towards that second year level. But three-point shooting should get better as your career progresses should but doesn't always i think most guys stay the same i mean how many guys really become go from average to great or no i liked his stroke last year i think with the free throw shooting as well that was a i mean free throw shooting that's

sharks is big thing i mean he always looks at the free throw shooting i mean that's you know there's been nylon calculus has written many analytics websites have done great articles on how free throw shooting for draft prospects is a better indicator of future three-point percentage in the nba yeah call it three-point percentages and it's the same thing with nba free throw percentage as well that can be a stronger indicator of future three-point shooting success and so for jalen his free throws are still poor or average below average whatever you want to call it i have a different theory on jalen i think he's taken some really hard falls and i think it's affected him i mean he's had like three of the worst falls in celtics history i mean his shot has

never been great though. No, I know, but I just think like... Before he was falling hard. I think he's had one of these years where he's had some physical stuff. He had the hip injury last year, was it? He took a... And he had a concussion last year too, right? I forget.

I don't think so. So the combo of like physically he's taken some hits. Tatum was the favorite child all summer. It was like Tatum, Tatum, Tatum, Tatum. Meanwhile, Jalen was playing through injuries last year. The Davis stuff starts. It's always Jalen in the trade. And then he comes back.

Hayward's now on the team, taking some of his minutes. Now he's got to figure out how to- Marcus Morris having a career best season. Making one of the great contract runs ever. They have this embarrassment of riches. And then when him and Rozier specifically, when they go in these games, it's like they got to get all their stats in 20 minutes.

And I think it's just changed the way he's played. I actually would trade for him if I was another team. I think he's one of the best. Somebody should trade for this guy right now. Because if you look at his stats the first two years, he's basically on the same path as Paul George. If you go head to head, same kind of arc, actually more big games than Paul George did. But now he's in Paul George by year three in Indiana, was able to be the guy Danny Granger was out, was able to take on this huge

kind of a burden for them. And Jalen's gone the other way. He's now the ninth man on the team, which is, I don't know. If I was somebody like the Hawks, I would try to make a major run. I think with Jalen, I don't view, I just don't think he has the same fluidity as a scorer as Paul George did, even as a young player. But Paul George is like 13 points a game. Of course.

It's year two. I just think Jalen, the path is, the, the path is more like a, you've never liked Jalen. I like, no, you've never liked him. I always never liked him back in the 2016 draft. I remember, you know, working in Boston, like everybody booing the pick. I went on Boston sports, sports tonight. I think the next day defending the pick that night i think is jalen i remember saying if you like jay crowder as a celtics fan you're gonna like jalen brown because that's typical that's probably his most realistic outcome but he can also be an awesome three and df but he can also be much more than that if his ball handling improves if his three-point percentage improves

which you know it's gotten better it's still not where it needs to be i think with jalen i agree that he's somebody that you should trade for. I'm just not sure if there's a Paul George path for him. I think Paul George is just a more fluid ball handler, a better decision maker. Paul George is a better defender than him, even in second year. But I'm just saying, statistically,

if you're just looking at the pure statistical arc, he was on the same path. And now it's cratered and going toward hell which ultimately like you're mentioning if you're a team you're going to try to trade for jalen boston wouldn't trade jalen now because they're saving their assets for an anthony david run in anthony davis run this summer but the problem for boston is right now jalen has depreciated in value a little bit so and so is rogier so is rogier in a sign and trade scenario. So for the Celtics, suddenly it's like you're either adding a heck of a lot more picks or you have to trade Jason Tatum.

I think they could have really gotten something good from Phoenix for Rozier before the season. I don't know exactly what it was, but I heard it was a significant offer. I think Phoenix, from what I heard, I don't know if you've heard. I know they made an offer. I think Phoenix from what I heard and I don't know if you've heard I know they made an offer and I think before the Eric Bledsoe trade happened Milwaukee also had interest in Terriers last season. But I think Phoenix

there was a little stretch there where they were really really really aggressive and I wonder if that was one of the reasons the GM got pushed out because I think he was aggressively trying to improve the team and there seemed to be something of a schism. There's definitely something with Rozier. I'm not sure for Boston. Boston right now wants to win the championship. I think it was more of a

future-focused trade where it might have hurt their backup. Well, I think they're worried about Kyrie. Yeah, of course. They had no idea if he could play 100 games. Yeah, Kyrie's injury history, his contract status, Rozier for the Celtics was and still is kind of an emergency backup. And by the way, with the Kyrie thing, I'm not saying he should take 25 shots a game for the entire season. I'm saying the season is in crisis, and they need for him to take a two- or three-week stretch and just be like, I've got this guys.

I'm going to score 40 points a game now. And I'm going to write the ship and everything's going to be good. And then we'll go back to where we were. I think we're at that point. Cause over and over again, we've seen both San Antonio and Memphis. They were down by 15. Crisis feels a little strong though. It's a crisis.

This is a crisis. Yeah. And they're going to make the playoffs and you know, come, come April. Their over under was 59 wins. I predicted they were going to win 67. It's a crisis for me, but you can't tell me they don't have more talent than 27 of these teams. I mean, this is disgraceful that they're 20 and 15. I mean, they're, they're a team that, you know, if all worked out right, they could at least give the Warriors a run for their money in the finals. But right now, they don't seem like that team at all.

I just don't like the way they play together. And I watch a team, the balance is off. And I do think part of it is that Kyrie hasn't really grabbed it by the balls. But I watch even a team like Sacramento. That's a team that has half the talent Boston has. They play really well together. They know who they are.

And Fox and Heald have developed such great chemistry. Every guy that they have who comes in kind of knows what's expected of them, how many minutes they're going to play. I should do this. I shouldn't do that. The only guy they haven't really figured out yet is Bagley. But I think I agreed with what somebody said on the podcast you did this week that just play Bagley and have him try I agreed with what somebody said on the podcast you did this week that just

play Bagley and have them try to be Stoudemire for two 10 minute stretches and throw away the defense and just try to beat, beat with offense. But my point is I like the collection of those guys and how they mesh together. And with this Celtics team, it hasn't meshed and you can see it every game. Sure. I think that's one of the, you know, Boston has a heck of a lot of talent. You mentioned there might be one of the most you know, Boston has a heck of a lot of talent. You mentioned they might be one of the most talented teams in the league, if not have the greatest depth with high-end talent. But with that comes the issue of, you know,

not enough touches for a lot of guys where guys start taking shots that are outside of the offense. They start taking early mid-range shots because they're like, I got to touch, got to go shoot the ball. We lived through it with the 83 Celtics. And what's funny is Danny was on that team and I think

from what I've heard, I think he feared that this might happen because he'd been in this situation 35 years earlier where you had a really crazily loaded Celtics team that got swept in round two by Milwaukee. Because for the same reason, they had too many

guys and they couldn't figure out who should play when and who the crunch time team was. I'm paraphrasing here, but I saw Kyrie had some quote last week where he mentioned like after game 70, you know, you're going to, you're putting this away, right? Like you're, then you're just playing, you're just hooping, right? Yeah. And Boston does need that to happen. There's no guarantee it will though, because we've seen this, you know, in history with teams that just don't. They continue playing this selfish style, as some of the players have called it. But if they do put it away, though, whether they're the one seed or the five seed,

regardless of regular season performance, if they do bury and start performing at the ability they can in the playoffs, they can become that threat. And the crisis will be averted at that point. The red flag is how many times they fall behind by 10 plus. I always look at that with teams. That means something's wrong if that keeps happening, especially when it's shit teams. When you're down 12 to Phoenix, something's wrong. You know what's funny? This conversation started talking about Philly should make an offer for AD or New Orleans should think about it or maybe making it on their end. If an AD deal were to theoretically happen,

suddenly Boston is in a spot where it's like, oh, now you can make a deal. Because at this point, for Boston... Oh, it would open up the Boston thing. For Boston and for the Lakers right now, you're at a spot where it's about waiting for AD. It's about the order of operations where the timing of the AD trade matters.

And so for Boston right now, it's like you're in a holding spot. You're holding Jalen Brown, waiting for Anthony Davis trade. You can't make a move right now because of that possibility of getting a generational talent. But if you were to theoretically be dealt, suddenly it opens up a lot of possibilities for what you could do to try to maximize this season and set yourself up for more sustained success. If it was like Brown, Rozier, and Baines for Aaron Gordon, something like that.

Yeah. I mean, whatever it might be. The team I want to make a trade is Dallas. Turn Wes Matthews into somebody who's better and try to make the playoffs. Because I still believe in Dallas. I think Doncic is going to get better as the season goes. I just want that guy in the playoffs.

If he's even an eight seat, I'm happy. Everything we said about Ben Simmons earlier, about him doing things at 22 that have rarely ever been done before. Also applies to Luka Donchic to 19 years old. I mean, there's been some criticism on Twitter recently about like, Oh,

you know, it's scoring efficiency still isn't great. He doesn't finish on the rim. Well, fuck that. And that's true. Fuck that. Fuck all everybody.

It's true. But it's like, he's also 19 years old outrageous also go to a basketball game watch him play in person like the guy he's unbelievable he's uh the way he uses his teammates and i think the big issue for them is i don't think barnes and dennis smith were ready to be on a team where there was clearly this prodigy who's going to be a future MVP candidate and The team needs to belong to him, but I don't know if I think that needs to play out It's like earlier in the season where Carlisle was, you know Really distributing touches between Dennis Smith and Luca and I'm at that point

I was like give the ball to Luke he's a better playmaker stop And we're starting to see that more now or Lucas domain the ball Which made it so shocking at the end of that game recently when he didn't get the touch, when he was using a decoy or whatever the heck happened at the end of that game.

But it wasn't just that touch. It was Dennis Smith took a terrible three before that. What game was that? Who were they playing? I watched that game. Dennis Smith took it. Luka made the go-ahead three and then didn't touch the ball again

for the last minute. Barnes took a shot. Oh, it was New Orleans. New Orleans. Barnes took a shot. Dennis Smith took a terrible three and then Dennis't touch the ball again for the last minute. Barnes took a shot. Oh, that was New Orleans. New Orleans. Barnes took a shot. Dennis Smith took a terrible three, and then Dennis Smith took the ball in the last play. And Donchish didn't touch the ball.

He just scored. I watch that team a lot because it's weird. He reminds me a little of Bird. Luka Legends. I really hesitate to throw that out there, but kind of the way he uses everybody, he's like a chef. He just uses all the ingredients on the court

and is like, oh, all right, Maxi Kluber's out there. He likes to do this. I'm going to make this happen. I don't know. I just love watching him. We talked about Luka before the draft. Our conversation about him was based around the fact this guy's going to be a success.

No doubt about it. It just depends on the level he reaches and right now his rookie season his scoring is far beyond what i would have expected for him as a rookie like the playmaking and rebounding game at 19 is nuts the creating space like his footwork and feel has always been at a truly elite level like sometimes i feel like i overuse the word elite it It should be reserved for Luka. He is a transcendent level player when it comes to footwork and feel. Danny overuses it, actually. You use it a little too much.

Danny likes historical and elite. Maybe that's my new username. Danny's a historically elite user of historical and elite. But Luka is truly elite. He's historically elite. Potentially with footwork and feel. But the scoring?

Luke is going to win the MVP someday if he stays healthy. In my opinion. When you're talking about the next faces of the NBA, as LeBron fades away at some point, Luka, Giannis Antetokounmpo, maybe Ben Simmons, these are the guys that are going to become

the faces of the league at some point this Ben Simmons. These are the guys that are going to become the faces of the league at some point this next decade. What about Dennis Smith and Matthews expiring to the Knicks for Hardaway, Frankie Smokes,

and whatever expiring it takes to make the deal work. I mean, I think, first of all, if you're the Knicks, you're excited because it's like, yes. If I am the Knicks. Get off Hardaway, have a chance at KD. Hardaway, people should want to trade for Hardaway. Utah should want to trade for him.

Dallas should too. You can play him in crunch time. Hardaway, I've been thinking about him. He's scoring over 20 points per game. His inefficiency stinks, but he's also in a role right now where he's asked to do more

than he would be in a different situation where he'd more spot up. I'm glad you brought that up, Kevin O'Connor, because nobody looks at these circumstances when you're looking

at some of these stats. Context matters. He's being forced into being the number one option on a bad team. Of course his inefficiency is going to be down. If he's your fifth guy

and he's just wide open in the corner, he's going to make shots. Corner threes, running off screens, scoring secondary pick and rolls. He can score. Against the fourth best defender on the floor instead of the best one. That's all going to help someone like Hardaway out. I think that's intriguing for

Dallas. I think Sacramento would be fun too for him. Hardaway. Yeah. That'd be interesting. I'd like more size, I think, because when you already have Heald and Fox, I think a little bit more size. And Bogdanovich for that matter.

What about a three-way where Hardaway goes to Dallas and Barnes goes to Sacramento? Barnes would be more interesting. The Knicks get some expirings back. Barnes would be more interesting to me than Otto Porter because of the contract for Sacramento. Otto Porter is one of those. Are we sure he's good?

I think Otto's also another one of those. Not sure he's good. Hardaway types where, you know, if you put him in a high-tempo offense in Sacramento where the ball moves around a bit more, granted it will now, you know, without John Wall, Saturansky in there. It's not a knock on John Wall.

It's just how the nature of this team is going to change. I think we might see a little bit of a different Otto Porter moving forward with Washington. The problem is you can't take that risk because he's making $25 million a year. The money. We didn't get to talk about Washington. I forgot to bring that up. I would

go. I would tank in ways that nobody has seen. The most obscene. We're talking more than the Sixers. I would convince Bradley Beal that he has seen. The most obscene? We're talking more than the Sixers. I would convince Bradley Beal that he has mononucleosis right now or planar fasciitis or whatever.

It's like, Bradley, bad news. There's something wrong. We found some issue with your foot. I know it feels 100% fine, but it's not. You're going to have to sit out for a month and a half. Here's the thing, though. They still stink even with Bradley Beal, though.

Like, you can, Bradley Beal right now, you can run more pick and roll with him. You can try to improve some of his asset. I know. They got to go 2007

Paul Pierce on him. Your knee hurts. Oh, yeah. That was a... Remember that one? Paul Pierce's slate, ankle strain or whatever lasted four and a half months.

There's some good tanking stories out there. I'm going to leave you this, Kevin. If Cleveland wins the lottery and gets Zion, I'm quitting sports. I'm just done. I'm out. Just doing all rewatchables from now on. Yeah, we're just in. Ringer turns into a pop culture site.

You're going to have to look for a new job. All right. I'm done. If Cleveland wins the fucking lottery again, I'm done. I'm done with all professional sports about. I think Zion in Cleveland. They do not deserve Zion. That would be.

You don't deserve Zion. I'm sorry, Cleveland. Yeah, that would be. How many fucking times can they win the lottery? That'd be the fourth time. That'd be the fifth. Fifth time. Jeez, I'm losing count.

We're losing count. And we're losing count how many times Cleveland's got a number one pick. Dan Gilbert, talk about being born on third base. Just happens to win the lottery with LeBron. And all he does is

fuck that up for the next 15 years and just keep letting him win the lottery. What has he done other than he won the LeBron lottery? Then he wins

the Kyrie Irving lottery. Oh my God. One note on the lottery. It's 14% for the top three teams and the first four teams are going to have the lottery balls drawn. But being the worst team still gives you an advantage because if you're the worst team, the worst

pick you can get is fifth. If you're the third worst team, the worst you can get is seventh. It's 14% for the top three teams, but it's actually not because of the back end. Here's another team that shouldn't win the lottery. Phoenix. Phoenix, you shouldn't be allowed to even get a top three pick again.

Top three picks can you get? What's wrong with DeAndre Ayton? Yeah, exactly. They won the lottery last year. They shouldn't be able to win the lottery again. Oh, okay. So you're saying two years in a row. Okay. I'm saying you shouldn't be able to just be completely incompetent for four straight years

and then just you get Zion Williamson. Yeah, I mean, Devin Booker was not an incompetent pick. No. DeAndre Eaton wasn't either. They have something good going. They had the fourth pick and the first pick in back-to-back ladders. I know for a while I was on an island with Phoenix,

but I think it's pretty clear now. Well, you like Devin Booker too much. It's one of your flaws. I don't think I love Devin Booker too much. It's like a Jalen Brown type flaw for you. Do I love Devin Booker too much? I don't know. Yeah, I think you like him too much.

I don't know. I feel it in the slack. I think with Booker, yeah, I put some good Devin Booker stats in there the other day. I think it's easy to put up good stats on bad teams. It's one of the things I've learned in life. Well, that was one of my points on last Friday's Ringer NBA show. My resolution for the Suns was don't fall too in love with Booker at point guard.

And the reason why is because I think with him, part of it is, as you're saying, he's putting up great stats on a poor team, but also he's a really good off-ball player. You don't want to have him as your total number one centerpiece. You want him running off screens and doing the thing that you expected him to do coming into the league with the Klay Thompson. He's not a Klay Thompson level shooter, but that type of thing, running off-ball, spotting up, attacking closeouts.

He's far better with the ball than anybody could have expected. We have to go because Kyle's getting fidgety. When Kyle starts moving around like this either his girlfriend's facetiming no no i played basketball yesterday my legs are fucked up you played basketball new year's day with who demon and a couple other people right down where poinsettia right down the court there that's great we should have sent koc he could have given scouting

who's your basketball doppelganger defense yeah who your basketball doppelganger? I don't want to hear it. I didn't like Kyle's perimeter defense. Yeah, who's your doppelganger? Somebody who doesn't try very much and hangs around the room. What do you think? It's Dirk Nowitzki right now. Yeah, great. Let's go with that. That's a low blow.

It's sad watching Dirk right now. Derek, you're a hero. You're one of the best 15 players of all time. You're the second best foreign player the league's ever had. You beat LeBron in the finals. It's over. This feature

has probably been written but I think there's a feature to be written on like this final season for Dirk passing the baton to Luka Doncic.

It's kind of poetic. I mean I know it's sad to watch Dirk right now but it's also kind of beautiful watching those guys It is but playing on the court together Luka's going to take the reins.

It's sad to watch. It's sad but also nice because Luke is such a... He can't run anymore. I was shocked when I went to the Clipper game. He's one of the greats of all time

but at some point you just got to stop playing. He can't move anymore. It's rough. It's like LeBron said recently. I forget where. He won't play when he's sorry as a player.

If he feels like he's going to be sorry it's sad to see guys reach this level. When the legend retired in 92, he saw the day coming when he was going to have that Dirk season and he just wanted to get out well before that happened. He was also in a lot more pain.

The back injuries, the leg injuries. But I remember in 72, Elgin Baylor, his body just was done. And they asked him, you can't start anymore. And he's like, then I should retire. And he retired. They immediately won 33 games.

I always thought that was the best. Yeah, you probably should have retired. Your team went on a 33-game winning streak the moment you left. I don't think that's going to happen with Dallas. Oh, no. It's a bummer to watch them. And I just don't think that's gonna happen with Dallas but it's a it's a bummer to watch him and I just don't think there's a road to getting better he's too old

he's 7 feet and his you know his legs aren't the same anymore and an awesome career

but I wish he would stop they would pay him right yeah yeah I mean he gets paid out for the rest of the season

my last game's next Sunday I think Cuban's paying me for a full year you gotta finish out the year no you can't like back up Dwight Powell like come on

it's embarrassing Maxie Cleaver backing up him the guy's like the 15th best player of all time how about you he beat LeBron in the finals

how about you play Dirk for a half like five minutes one stint and if he does well then you play him another one in the second half. It's funny,

I always thought he could play until he was like 50 and just be like Sam Perkins in the mid-90s and just spot up threes and just stick his hands up, that's it. But he,

I mean, Montrezl Harrell against him, one of the games I went to two weeks ago, it was like, oh my God, call the police.

And then the game changed where Dirk, like you can't be a liability on defense at his position. You just can't. Right. And, you know, a liability on defense at his position. You just can't. Right. And, you know, obviously it's affected his offense too. He just can't move.

It's a bummer. Harold's a beast. I fucking love Dirk Nowitzki. It just hurts my, it hurts. Kevin O'Connor, we can hear you on the Ringer NBA show Tuesdays and Fridays during the season. We can read you on theringer.com. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me, Bill. You never fully gave me your, your, your perfect Philly, new Orleans trade though. Oh yeah, I didn't. Are we going to circle back to that? No,

just finish, finish with that. Davis for what? I think the perfect trade for them involves Boston. I think it does where it's something where this becomes a bidding war where Ingram and a bunch of Lakers picks are on the table where Simmons is on the table. You know, the Knicks are offering the number two pick and Chris staffs.

I'm talking getting crazy bidding war in Boston's like Sacramento ended up with the number three pick Jason Tatum, other future picks sign and trade involving Terry Rose there. I think that's an ideal trade for new Orleans because Tatum is becomes your star score. You'd rather have that than Ben Simmons. If I'm New Orleans, I think because of what I said earlier about the clutch aspects

with Ben Simmons, there's already the LA stuff. Take that off the table. You don't get your wish here. New Orleans and Philly are about to make a trade. What does Philly have to get? I think right now, we're talking today right now today

six hour deadline I think if you're New Orleans you're also needing draft picks you're needing that Miami 2021 you're needing future Philly picks as well even if they're lightly protected

it's not going to matter because the team's going to be really good for a long time Ben Simmons Miami 2021 and other future picks and like a 2023 Philly pick and like you know

I'm asking for Zaire Smith to I'm asking for Jonah Bold and I'm asking for younger players as well in addition to kind of like Jonah Bold I think the tough part right now for Philly is having to add so much salary in the trade at this moment whereas in the summertime right there they can they can hold on to the JJ Redick cap hold and the TJ McConnell cap hold and only have to give up Fultz and Simmons in a trade and still have the ability to either re-sign Redick and McConnell or create a cap space. Now you're filibustering.

Yeah, I know, yeah. But the timing in the summer is just much easier. Ben Simmons, future picks, and the Miami 2021 are then expiring. I would do it if I was Philly. And if you're New Orleans, you'd pull the trigger right now too? I would. I would do it. I would haveilly. And if you're New Orleans, you'd pull the trigger right now? I would.

I would do it. I would have to get a top 10 guy back for him or else I don't deserve a franchise. I don't want future stuff and picks. And what does that do for me? Now I have 8,000 people on my game for the next five years. You are at the point now though

where you agree that you have to trade Anthony Davis if you're New Orleans, if it comes to him demanding a trade. No, I would just bring it to a head. We want to know from Anthony Davis, does he want to be here or not? And if he doesn't want to be here, we're going to try to figure out a trade.

That's it. All right, we'll be back. We'll be back. One more podcast this week talking about the wildcard round. Million dollar picks are coming, Kyle. We have a little nest egg. Do we?

Oh, yeah. All right. We're over five million. We have a little nest egg. Do we? Oh, yeah. All right. Yeah. We're over 5 million. Eagles managed to sneak in. We won last week too, but I didn't get to do picks last week because we decided to just do a parent corner.

But anyway. Eagles managed to sneak in with Nick Foles. Yeah. Again. Nick Foles. Watch out for Nick. All right. We'll see you in a couple of days.

All right. Thanks to the Kevins, Clark and O'Connor. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to the New York Times mini crossword. If you have two minutes, it's a fun way to stay sharp when you're not busy. The satisfaction of solving is endless. There's wordplay every day. Taking a break with the mini is time well spent. Download the New York Times crossword app at newyorktimes.com slash mini. Thanks to Project Blue Book.

The new drama series premieres Tuesday, January 8th at 10 ET on History. Visit history.com slash projectbluebook to learn more. It is based on the true top secret United States Air Force investigations of the same name. Each episode draws from actual files

blending UFO theories with authentic historical events from one of the most mysterious areas in the United States history. We're back with one more BS podcast this week. Plus don't forget about the rewatchables comes back next week. 50 episodes, the Godfather, Kyle, January 8th,

the most important rewatchables podcast we've ever done. That is all coming up. Until then. On the wayside On the Bruce and Neverland I don't have To ever forget