The Bill Simmons Podcast - Stephen A. Smith on OKC’s Lost Chance, Saving the Knicks, and GSW’s Mini Dynasty. Plus: 2019 TV With Wesley Morris | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: August 21, 2019

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN’s Stephen A. Smith to discuss NBA superteams, the 2019-20 NBA season, Kevin Durant’s search for ... something, saving the Knicks, players vs. the media, and more (2:15). Then Bill sits down with the NYT’s Wesley Morris to discuss 2019 TV, including 'Euphoria,' 'Fleabag,' 'Succession,' 'Billions,' 'PEN15,' and more (56:29). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We are also brought to you by The Ringer Dish, a really good podcast that you should listen to that covers all kinds of celebrity culture. We have jam session every Wednesday, tea time every Friday,

and then a rotating thing on Monday. And then my daughter, she wants to do one more for realsies before school starts. Let's do it. She's got a lot of thoughts

on a lot of things. So yeah, you should subscribe to Ringer Dish though. It's a really good podcast's just, she's got a lot of thoughts on a lot of things. So yeah, you should subscribe to ringer dish. So it's a really good podcast. You can subscribe to it on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Also the ringer NFL show heating up as season is getting closer and closer.

If you need some fantasy help, check out the Danny C football show on the ringer NFL show, as well as Clark and May's breaking down all of the last minute subplots as we head toward the season and cousin Sal against all odds, his, his little gambling podcast for us. They're really starting to dive into it to the props, all that.

I don't know when Sal's coming on, but we're doing the annual win totals. I'm going to do one on mine, one on his AFC on mine. I think NFC on his, so check all that stuff out. We want you to be prepared for football season. Coming up, he hasn't been on in a while.

I'm not sure if he's been on this one. I know I had him on the BS Report, Stephen A. Smith. We're also going to talk to Wesley Morris. But first, our're taping this. It is noon Pacific time on Wednesday. Steve Naismith on the line. As usual, he just did a two-hour TV show, took a break, did a two-hour radio show. Now he's doing this

podcast. I like getting you when you're a little punchy and tired. I feel like I have an advantage in the ring with you right now. I got bad news for you. I'm actually not tired at all. I feel pretty good. How do you do this every day? I'm always in awe of how you're able to just produce content for four hours

a day. Just being passionate about what I do. You know, I love sports. I grew up loving sports all my life. And, you know, it's almost the equivalent of you talking about the Boston Celtics of crying out loud. You can go on for hours and hours about just the Celtics alone. Oh, well, that's how I feel about sports that I love. You don't see me talking about hockey. You don't see me talking about NASCAR. I have zero interest in those things. But when it comes to basketball, when it comes to football, and then you have my news background, just being a reporter for so many years and having to pay attention to whatever story was percolating and resonating to the masses, you know, I try to pay attention to that stuff, obviously. And because of that,

if everybody's interested in things, then you know that whenever you speak on it, more than likely they're going to be interested in what you have to say, not just because you are who you are, but also the subject matter is what's percolating. So the combination of all of those things makes it much, much easier for me to do what I do for the hours that I do it. This was a good decade for both of us because the NBA became more popular, more fun to talk about, and just more erratic, more interesting and crazier and all the things that's good for people like us. When you think about this decade, just think about where we were in 2010. That summer, you were the one who had LeBron to Miami. I think I even made fun of you in a column.

I was like, he's crazy. This ain't happening. And then it happened. But then you think about where we were and how mad people were at LeBron. And then nine years later, how just every year people press the reset button on the league and everybody switches teams. Is your head spinning with all this stuff?

I tell you, listen, when you bring up 2010, I think we have to, first of all, I was never mad at LeBron because he was going from Cleveland to Miami. That means I was going to have more time in Miami. I was perfectly fine with him. I was mad when he went back to Cleveland, to be quite honest with you. But I got to tell you, in all seriousness, when you look at him going to Miami, the real problem that everybody had is that it was such a dramatic shift in the balance of power because him joining Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, everybody thought and really, really felt that it was such an incredible imbalance that it wasn't fair.

But I don't know if I've ever really said this publicly. When we talk about the NBA and where it is today in terms of that interest, I think the two teams that deserve the most credit are the Indiana Pacers and the Dallas Mavericks. Because if you remember, we saw at that particular moment in time, first order of business, the Dallas Mavericks, when Dirk Nowitzki and those boys, and Dirk Nowitzki pretty much put on the show, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, and those guys contributed. Rick Carlisle was coaching them. They beat LeBron and Miami in that first NBA Finals appearance.

But then after that, you saw the emergence of Paul George in Indiana, and they had pushed the good Miami Heat to a seven-game series. And so when you looked at that and you saw the star that had come out of nowhere in Paul George, you said, hey, who said it's automatic that these guys are going to win? And then last but not least, you saw the second go around, not the first, because one could legitimately argue that San Antonio should have won that first finals against Miami, but Ray Allen hit that shot. Ultimately, Miami prevailed, and they forced a game seven, and they won that championship against the San Antonio Spurs

when Greg Popovich, for some inexplicable reason, put Tim Duncan on the bench, and Chris Bosh was able to get that rebound and pass it to Ray Allen in that game six. But the thing about it is that by San Antonio coming back and shellacking Miami in five games that next series, once again, this is a juggernaut that's the Miami Heat, the reigning two-time defending NBA champions with LeBron in his prime,

D-Wade fading a little bit but still a star, Chris Bosh balling. They got beat down and so as a result you looked at that and you said okay there's a way that even if you are supposedly a super team there are people who can take you out so we saw Cleveland going back and forth even though they lost to Golden State the first

go around we knew that Kyrie and Kevin Love went down second go around they come back from a 3-1 deficit although assisted by that stimulus package the NBA gave them by suspending Draymond Green for that Game 5, you know, for the kicking incident with LeBron James. They ultimately come back from a 3-1. Cleveland wins that championship, LeBron's first,

and they're only in Cleveland. And then they won the two straight with Kevin Durant. You look at it from that perspective, and then you say, okay, you see that these Goliaths can get knocked off. You would have never believed that if LeBron and Miami had just won four straight. And that's the difference. You know what's funny about everything you just said, which I agreed with? We have seen, I would say, nine out of every ten times this has happened.

The seemingly invincible team or the team of the future just not end up being invincible team or the team of the future, just not end up being invincible or being the team of the future. It's way more likely that it's going to fall apart because you're going to have like the James Harden trade, or you're going to have some injuries or in the Celtics case, you're going to have Len bias dies right after they draft them. And you go on and on through the years. Jordan's bowls were really the only one

that pulled off kind of the amount of titles we thought they had a chance to win. Even Shaq and Kobe, remember the start of that decade when they won that first title, it seemed like they were going to win a title every year that decade. You just would have penciled them down for eight.

And they won three. And it ended up being the Spurs won the most with five, but they really had two different parts of that dynasty. I just think it goes wrong more than it goes right, I guess is my point. Yeah, I agree with you, but I wouldn't use those two examples, in my personal opinion. Here's why.

In the case of Chicago, Michael Jordan was just head and shoulders above everybody else, not just in terms of his talent and his skill set, but the fire in his belly to win, to conquer, to destroy you. It wasn't enough for him to beat you. He had to demoralize you and literally snatch your heart out of your chest so you couldn't even think about being, about going up against him and thinking you had a chance to win again. I mean, if you think about it, I think one of the things we have to marvel at about Michael Jordan is the amount of would-be champions he denied that opportunity at glory. And Reggie Miller might have had a ring had it not been for Michael Jordan. Even back to the days in Cleveland where Mark Price, Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance and those guys, they might have won

a championship one year. The Knicks? If it wasn't for Michael Jordan. You look at the Knicks with Ewing and those boys. They might have won a title. Isaiah Thomas might have three or four titles

as opposed to just two. And the bad boy, the bad boy Pistons, if it wasn't for Jordan. You look at Magic. He might have had, you know, six or seven titles instead of just five if it wasn't for Jordan, you look at Magic. He might have had, you know, six or seven titles instead of just five.

If it wasn't for Jordan, Drexler might not have had to go to Houston. If it were not for Jordan, Karl Malone in Stockton might have had two rings. If it wasn't for Michael Jordan, Barkley might have had a title in Phoenix. He should have. If it were not for Michael Jordan. So you look at it from that perspective, his individual greatness was what really, really just dethroned everything. And then in the case of the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq, it just goes to show, never assume that too much success is always a good thing. Year one title, then it was two, then it was three. But another team, even though

San Antonio shellacked them that year, it wasn't really about San Antonio. It was about the fact that Kobe and Shaq did not want to play together. Kobe wanted that man out. Shaq didn't want to be with him anymore. Shaq probably was wishing that Kobe had gone to jail at that particular moment of time with the level of vitriol they had towards one another. You had that stuff that dethroned the Lakers. So that wasn't enough to convince the audience per se that those star-studded teams could be knocked off. It wasn't until LeBron and them lost to Dallas that you realized that, hey, it could happen. But think about what you just said. All right, if we're going to have a team that's really going to matter for six to ten years, they have to stay injury-free

so you can't have that one catastrophic injury to somebody. You can't have what happened with Len Bias, any of that stuff. You've got to keep the nucleus intact. You have to have the egos. You have to get everybody to just kind of get along and fall in a pecking order, which we just saw with the Warriors. On paper, should have been an awesome situation.

It's still unclear to me from a basketball situation why Kevin Durant never would have wanted to leave that. It obviously wasn't about basketball to him. But if he stays, you know, on paper, that should have been five, six titles. Now they have all these injuries and that flips, which brings me to the third thing,

which is talking about like front office mistakes. The OKC, the hardened trade, whether they should have traded and were not doing it when they did was the mistake. If they just kept them another year and tried to make one more run in 2013,

then tried to flip them. At least they would have had one more chance. There's so many variables that goes into screwing up a team. You know, now we look at where we are going forward. It just doesn't seem like teams are going to stay together that long. And that's the new variable. There's no continuity at all. So you like it.

I think that's a beautiful thing. You like it. Well, see, here's what I like. I like the fact that Kawhi Leonard and Paul George are together. But I like it even more that they only committed to two years with a third-year

option. In other words, we ain't signing five-year deals. You got to look forward to us. Everybody got to stay healthy. Eventually you figure it out or whatever. Kawhi Leonard and Paul George might be teammates now, but two years from now, it might be somebody else. We also got to look at it from this perspective. Let's say, for example, Kevin Durant had elected to stay in Golden State, right?

Yeah. Who's to say Kawhi would have chose the Clippers? At that particular juncture, he might have chose the Lakers because with Anthony Davis and LeBron James, we could do some things against Klay, Steph, Draymond, and KD. But if KD stays in Golden State, because if KD stays in Golden State, me just being with Paul George ain't going to be enough to knock off Golden State. That could have been his thinking, so we don't know. Bottom line is that what we're seeing is a tremendous amount of movement,

but we also have to applaud some of the other things that we're seeing. For example, Denver building through the draft or whatever with Murray with the Joker. You look at Utah. They're making moves in the offseason. Bogdanovich is a big pickup in my estimation. And then you've got Mike Conley, okay? You look at in the Eastern Conference, even though they're not a threat, if Victor Oladipo comes back healthy and Brogdon is there now, you got to look at Indiana with some respect, attach some respect to their name.

They could at least serve to make things interesting in the East. And then you look at Portland. You've got a guy, C.J. McCullum, that got a three-year extension for $100 million to add to his dollars that he was scheduled to give for next season. And you got a guy in Damian Lillard,'s a perennial all-star who's a big time performer and what does he say I will never join forces chasing the championship with anybody I'm gonna stay right here with the team that drafted me I'm not going any damn place and what do they do they reward this man with the biggest contract in NBA history. The man signed for six years, $250 million bill.

So when you look at it from that perspective, and you look at what they have surrounding them, it's him, it's CJ. Nergis is coming back. He'll be healthy. Even though Hassan Whiteside was a joke over the last couple of years because he stole money from the Miami Heat with his level of ineptitude, him being there and adding some size to their mix could be helpful to them along with Myers Leonard and what have you. So you look at it from that

perspective, and Portland is a legitimate threat. And then you look at the Western Conference as a whole, both LA teams, Houston with Westbrook and Harden is going to be interesting. Portland, Denver, Utah, that's five teams and Golden State being six. All legitimate contenders that cannot be ignored by each other. And that's what makes this interesting. There's been some player movement, but it doesn't seem to be this desire to pile on excessively, as opposed to looking to hook up three or four guys together. Now you've got a couple of guys that are willing to go together and join forces to go against anybody else's duo.

And I think that's very attractive. You know, I think I'm in the minority on this, but maybe it's because I played basketball and I always enjoyed playing with people that I had played with for a bunch of years, especially with the Celtics in the 80s. My favorite Celtics team was the 87 team. And that team didn't win the title.

But that was the team. They'd been together a while. They'd had a ton of injuries. And they just kept gutting it out. And they made the finals, even though they shouldn't have. Mikael's playing the broken foot, all that stuff. When I watched what happened with the Warriors this year, you saw the DNA of that

team really come through the spirit of that team, the character of that team, despite all the injuries, they were really banged up. I think they were super tired. Durant goes down. Now they have to go to Houston game six. Everybody assumes Houston's going to get past them and go to round three and they band together. They do it. They get to the finals.

Then we, then in the finals, it seems like Toronto really has their number. They're going to clinch at home game five, Clay Thompson. Um, or they went, they come back, they win game five and then Clay Thompson goes down and the Warriors are still fighting the whole way. I think it's hard to get to that point. If you have guys that have just been together two, three years. So I guess I'm mourning the fact that that kind of basketball might be gone soon. And what I would counter that argument by saying is that I think you need to increase your appreciation for the individual player with loads of heart. Yeah. And here's what I mean. Klay Thompson, Steph Curry,

Draymond Green, five consecutive NBA finals. What happens? They go to the finals. Kevin Durant ain't healthy. You question whether they're going to be able to do it or not. They sweep the Portland Trail Blazers

in the Western. They win the last two games against Houston. Steph Curry drops 33 in the second half of a game six at games against Houston. Steph Curry drops 33 in the second half of a game six at Houston on James Harden's home turf. Fertitta's ready to fire everybody because of it, the owner for the Rockets. They go to the Western Conference Finals. They sweep Portland. They go to the Finals, and people have them as an underdog,

not a favorite, strictly because Kawhi Leonard is on a tear playing a monster playoff performance, and they don't have Kevin Durant. So what do they do? They go down in Game 1. They come back and win Game 2, okay? But Klay gets hurt. Klay has to sit for Game 3. So they miss both Game 3 three and he misses game three.

They lose both game three and game four because he plays game four on one leg. But that game four that he played on one leg, he dropped 28 on one leg. Right.

Kevin Durant comes down, comes back in game five because supposedly he's feeling pressure. So what does he do? He comes back. He drops three three-pointers and 11 points pretty much in the first quarter. Yeah.

And then goes down at the beginning of the second quarter. Klay Thompson is still playing, but he's hurt. He has 30 in two and a half quarters. Through the third, through midway through the third quarter, the man had 30 before he tore his ACL. So I'm looking at guys like that and I'm saying, you know what? They reminded me that at some point in time, sometimes it's strictly about you. It's about what you're made of. It ain't about your team. It ain't about being tired of one another. It ain't about the grueling 82 game schedule. It's about we right here. That's what we work for.

And these cats are actually counting me out. They think that these brothers just going to take us out. Let me show you something. You must have forgot who the hell I am. That's what Clay and Steph were trying to do. But it's just that once Clay went down, too, it was too much for Dre and Steph to overcome. I firmly believe, I think we all know, Golden State would have won the title if Kevin Durant hadn't been hurt. down too, it was too much for Dre and Steph to overcome.

I firmly believe, I think we all know, Golden State would have won the title if Kevin Durant hadn't been hurt. But I firmly believe, even without Kevin Durant, if Klay Thompson had not gone down, the Golden State Warriors would be champions right now. Yeah, it's a tough one because Kawhi, I thought, was playing on one leg the last two rounds. He was playing great, but he was still not the same guy he was the first two rounds physically. Right. But Toronto had, you know, we see this happen sometimes in the finals and in the last two rounds. We saw it in 2011 was a great example where just these random dudes just start feeling it for two, three straight weeks.

Fred Van Vliet is basically Barea in 2011, you know? And that's kind of what you need to win the final sometimes. We saw that was the difference with the four Miami years where in 2011, they didn't have those guys. And then in 2012, all of a sudden, Mike Miller gets hot in game five and you have these different dudes coming through. And then you have Ray Allen.

And that's how you win titles. It's not just the main guys that you have to have those wildcard guys too. I thought that really hurt Golden State as it went along. You always need wildcard guys, but you don't always need them to score. You need defenders. You need rock riders. You need rebounders.

You need those energizer bunnies. That's why I'm such a fan of Draymond. Draymond knows he needs to improve his damn jump shot. He's got to hit shots from the perimeter. He knows that. He and I have talked about it on several occasions, okay? But when you look at all the other things that he does, basically the only crime is that he's got to control himself better

with officials and with teammates and with coaches in terms of his mouth. Because obviously he hypes himself up and he's very emotional and very active. But what he does on the court cannot be measured. That's why I was happy he got his money. Because he deserves it. Because scoring ain't everything. You got to do it to win games. But everybody doesn't have the opportunity to be that guy.

You don't get to be on a team and shoot 25, 30 times a game if Klay and Steph are your teammates. Because we know they're the greatest shootback we've ever seen. So as a result of that, they're going to be priority. And there's only but so many shots to go around, which is why we've got to give Klay his respect and understand that he got his $190 million, and he deserved it because he's a champion. He's a 6'7 defender who's one of the greatest shooters we've ever seen and who's a big

time player in big moments. We get all of that. But the biggest thing about him is that he's also humble enough to know I ain't Steph Curry and I ain't Kevin Durant. So I got to be that third wheel. And he played that role admirably, just like Chris Bosh, in a different way, of course, but just like Chris Bosh did for Miami. It just shows, again, you could see that winning is a priority with certain players based on the sacrifices that they're willing to make, which is why I say give them credit. It's a beautiful, beautiful willing to make, which is why I say give them credit. It's a

beautiful, beautiful thing to see, especially now, because you're seeing, because of the level of competition that's out there, what sacrifices are required. And you're not finding out just about what kind of players some of these guys are. You're finding out what kind of people they are because of the sacrifices they're willing to make or the ones that aren't willing to make those sacrifices. I believe in the Warriors infrastructure. I'm actually excited for them this season. I know they're not going to win the title, but I do think that they're going to be able to maintain whatever they've been

able to achieve this last six years. It's not going to go away. We saw there were Spurs seasons like this too, when the Spurs weren't, the Spurs were able to keep the train moving, even though maybe this wasn't going to be their year, but they were still going to have the structure in place for maybe next year. I'm glad they're around because there's a familiarity with those guys now. You know, I like watching them together. Hey, we got to take a quick break. Hey, we've all made some bad choices in life. I traded two first round picks in my AL Keeper League for Jose Ramirez,

who went in a coma and was hitting like 190 for two and a half straight months. Bad choice. I have a lot of regrets. Don't let playing fantasy football on a platform other than Yahoo be one of those bad choices in life that you regret. Be the ringleader of your friends. Start a league on Yahoo. You know your buddies. They're still out there making bad choices, but you can make better choices and

choose Yahoo for your fantasy football league. It's the best app for commissioners. It's rated number one by the FSGA. Step up and sign up with Yahoo. Commish. Your friends will thank you. Start a league today on Yahoo fantasy football. Hey, speaking of football, Ryan Rosillo's podcast is going to heat up in September when he joins the ringer full-time. That podcast is called Dual Threat. I think we might change the name, but for now you can subscribe to it on Dual Threat.

He'll be doing it three times a week starting in September. At least two of those will be football shows, but then the other show will be a little wild card show. But don't forget to subscribe to that because coming in September. At least two of those will be football shows, but then the other show will be a little wild card show. But don't forget to subscribe to that because coming in September, Rosillo's coming in hot. Shine's stepdad. He's ready for you.

All right, back to Stephen A. Smith. So, Durant, the more I look at this, the more I talk to people, the more I flip over rocks and read the tea leaves and all this stuff. We both know that he was ready to get out of there even during the season. And you're talking early part in the season. He's already mentally, I thought it was going to be the Knicks that ended up being the Nets.

Right. Same here. My theory on all of this, it's twofold. One is, I think it goes back to 2017. And I've spent time with him. We've done six podcasts together, 2017, they win the title and he thinks he got the monkey off his back with the, you know, leaving OKC, joining a winner. He goes toe to toe with LeBron, beats him. They win the title. Now he doesn't have to hear about it anymore. This is his team. And it becomes clear over the course of that summer that people were still giving him shit that he went there and that it wasn't his team. It was actually Steph Curry's team. Still,

they do the ring ceremony. Steph Curry's last. It's Steph Curry's city. And I think over the course of the next year, he's starting to realize, I'm always going to be on Steph's team. This didn't work out how I thought it was going to work out. What about me? What's going to be my thing? Now I've been in two cities. I was in OKC. We never won the title. And then I left.

So I don't belong to them. And now I'm in Steph Curry's city. We're winning titles. I'm still not getting credit. I need my own thing. And then that eventually leads him to New York. And again, not the Knicks. Turns out to be Brooklyn.

And now, to me, he seems like somebody that's searching for something. What do you think? He definitely does. He definitely does. But I would tell you, he had a home in Oklahoma City. He gave that up. I don't blame him. He served his time there. And as much respect as

I have for Sam Presti, at some point in time, we have to talk about him. Only from the standpoint, tell me one, and you know your basketball, Bill Simmons, so I'll ask you this somewhat rhetorically. Tell me one executive in the history of the sport that has had Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, all on the same team.

Yeah. Practically at one time. And at least two of those guys on a team throughout his entire tenure and has zero championships to show for it. And one final win, that's it. And one appearance. And one finals appearance. One finals victory.

I mean, come on now. I mean, at some point in time, we got to ask, and here's why I ask that question. Because you know the number one reason I believe that the Oklahoma City Thunder don't have a championship to show for Sam Preston's obvious excellence as an executive because there's one flaw of the coaches he's picked.

It was Scott Brooks. Now it's Billy Donovan. Scott Brooks is a damn good coach. I think he's a good coach. I wouldn't say damn good, but I think he's a good coach. Billy Donovan is a champion, a two-time champion at Florida, but collegiately not in the pros. When you think about the plethora of coaches that have been available for Oklahoma City to hire and bring on board that could have potentially guided the likes of a Kevin Durant and a Russell Westbrook for years to a championship

and how they've come up short again. Billy Donovan has been to Game 7 of a Western Conference final. Scott Brooks coached the Oklahoma City Thunder to an NBA Finals berth. It's not like these guys can't coach. Please, I mean, no disrespect to them. I'm simply saying that when you talk about getting an edge, doing something that gets you over the hump, clearly looking at stuff that's available in the draft and picking pieces

and putting it together as a team, it's something Sam Presti is pretty damn gifted at. But you've got to look at the coaches that he selected. You know this. I know this. Anybody knows this. Don't tell us you could not have given a better option to that level of talent than a Billy Donovan or a Scott Brooks. I think he's come up short in that regard. And so I think that's worth discussing. Wait, can I throw one thing in there with Sam Presti? Sure. Because I think he's come up short in that regard. And so I think that's worth discussing.

Wait, can I throw one thing in there with Sam Presti? Sure. Because I think it's really important. I think it's been lost in the course of history. He was trying to put together this team, basically a 12-year plan, right? Where he's building around Durant, Westbrook. He has all these other assets

and he's trying to extend this thing for the whole decade. And he made two mistakes. We know about the Harden trade. We know that was a mistake, and we know that it's complete bullshit that they had to trade him when they did. They could have amnestied Perkins. They could have paid the luxury tax for one year. They could have played it out and waited until the following summer, whatever. Hold on, Bill.

Hold on, Bill. It's very important that you mention this. They let go of Harden for $4 million. Not $4 million a year. Not $4 million a year. Literally $4 million. Yeah. Let's remember that.

And they had moves. They just decided, let's do this now. They actually had him on a really good contract that year, heading into the 2013 season to come to the finals. But going backwards, remember when they re-signed Durant to the extension and it was right after the LeBron thing and it was like KD has signed for the full five years and it was a big deal everybody was like oh man what. And they, you know, we did all the dumb stuff we do as media people. What I heard was that, you know, KD was going to do four years with an option for the fifth year, right?

Presti goes to him and says, hey, I think it's better for us and the team we want to build if it's five years. It really shows that you're making a commitment. KD at that point is 23, 20, you know, 22, 23 years old. He's five years. It really shows that you're making a commitment. KD at that point is 23, 22, 23 years old. He's a kid. And he trusts him. And he's like, all right, you're right. I want to be here.

If that's going to help us be able to build this whole thing, let's do it. And then two years later, they trade hard. So to me, that paved the way eventually. That opened the door a little for Durant leaving someday. Because I thought they double-crossed him on it. You say that. You put it that way.

And you're not inaccurate. Please don't get me wrong. But here's what I think that's important to mention. In a roundabout way, you're saying something that I'm going to say directly. Okay. Presti and them essentially had the attitude, shut up and play. Yeah. You handle that.

We'll handle this. Kevin Durant and them felt like subordinates. Yes. Like they weren't really a part of the process. I'm telling you what I know. Yeah, you're right. What has been said to me. I can confirm.

I think that's an important thing because once again, when it comes to Sam Presti and the Oklahoma City Thunder, they do things a certain way. One of the things you heard, and I didn't check with them to get this verified, but you hear from the player side that when Kevin Durant won league MVP honors, Nike wanted to plaster something on the arena there, congratulating him and what have you, and were informed that's not something that they were allowed to do. And this is when Kevin Durant is winning league MVP, and he's the face of your franchise. So these are the kind of things that resonate with guys. But when Kevin Durant went to go to state, I never bought the Steph Curry thing because

Kevin Durant always knew it was going to be Steph Curry's town. He went there to, he never, ever, ever intended to stay more than he, longer than he stayed. He wanted to go there, win a couple of rings at the very least, and then move on. Because when he moved on, he would be moving on as a champion. Golden State was never a permanent situation for him, from my understanding. That was never going to be the case. He always had intentions to leave because he knew that would never be his. The question now is what could possibly be his? Brooklyn could.

You could assume that. But Kyrie is right from across the water, not Kevin Durant. But he's not Kevin Durant either. So we'll just have to wait and see. Yeah. You know, when we talk about OKC and just how they treated that whole situation, compared to where we are now, now it would be the opposite, right? They would be thinking from the get-go,

oh, God, everything we do has to be under the lens of we have to keep all of these guys. We can't let them be unhappy. But it was just a different way of thinking back then. It's like these are the young guys. We're building an organization, and you guys just play basketball. Let us handle everything else. You can't do that anymore.

You have to empower these guys. You have to talk to them. You have to lobby them. You have to kiss their ass. You have to hire two of their dudes that they grew up with. You have to give them access to the plane, all that shit. But, Bill, you might not have to go that far. Just don't treat them like they're subordinates.

You got to treat them better than that. And see, the thing about it is this. And not only that, let's understand something. We live in a world where everybody as human beings are quick to remind ourselves from time to time anyway. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. But here you are saying, Presti, you got 12-year plans. It looks good. And obviously, you've maintained a consistent level of competitiveness. There is no denying that you're one of the top winning franchises of the last decade in terms of the number of victories that you've accumulated in the regular season.

All of that is understood. All of that is to be appreciated. But when you have those quality of players and you don't have a championship to show for it, what it says more than anything is your priority was maintaining a consistent level of competitiveness as opposed to genuinely going for it and grasping an opportunity at the

chip as opposed to just saying, we got there, we're in play to be competitive for several years. At no time did he ever, some people could argue, at no time did he ever say we're going for it. I would beg to differ in terms of his player moves. I think from a player's perspective, in terms of formulating a roster, I will say Sam Presti went for it. My problem is you cannot say the same about him when it came to picking a coach to get the job done. He did not do that. You know, and then Messiah is the flip side of that, right? That was the all-time we're going for it. This is one, this is one year. Here are all my poker chips.

This probably won't work, but I got to try this and do it. And now, you know, you have, basically you have these guys when you draft them for their whole rookie contract. And then it seems like for about a year and a half after they signed the extension. And then that's it. And now they can force their way out.

So the whole concept of having a 12-year plan, I mean, shit, you can't. If you're New Orleans, can you have more than a four-year plan with Zion? Five, Matt? I don't think so. And you don't know if he's going to be healthy. You bring up Messiah. I think actually Messiah made a mistake. I think he did.

I personally believe he should have taken a shot and gone to the nation's capital and took over the Washington Wizards. I truly believe that. Because here's my belief. You have nowhere to go but down in Toronto. Now you will be security for years to come, no question. You'll be somebody who will be deified in that area for a long time to come because you got rid of Dwayne Casey, who was the coach of the year, got you the 59 wins, the number one seed in the Eastern Conference before they got swept in the second round by LeBron's Cavaliers. But you got rid of him.

You brought in Nick Nurse there, did a tremendous job. And obviously you traded an all-star on DeMar DeRozan, and you got Kawhi Leonard. And it was on a one-year wonder, but they delivered the goods. You got a championship. To me, once you do all of that, you throw all your chips on the table, and you cash in with a championship, you move

on. To me, he should have taken the job at the nation's capital. He really should have. I'm half agreeing with you. I think you move on. I'm not sure that taken the job in the nation's capital. He really should have. I'm half agreeing with you. I think you move on. I'm not sure that's the job. Okay. Because that John Wall contract. I just brought up Washington because that's who was coming after.

Yeah, I know, but that John Wall contract, I'm like, hey, I'm good. Call me in two years when there's only two years left of that deal. That's true. If you look at the great jobs, the big kahuna jobs, I still feel like you're next. That's the great challenge now, right?

That's the 2000, pre-2004 Red Sox, pre-2016 Cubs of NBA jobs. You're just doing that to get to me. That's all. You know I'm right.

That's all you're doing. I'm not wrong. Am I wrong? You're just doing it to mess with me. You're just trying to get on my nerves No. That's all. You know I'm right. That's all you're doing. I'm not wrong. Am I wrong? You're just doing it to mess with me. You're just trying to get on my nerves. But it's all right. Am I right? I deserve it.

I deserve it. Because here's the deal. I can't, with a good conscience, encourage anybody to take the next job as long as James Dolan is there. Yeah. I'm with you. I just can't do it. Yeah.

Because you're working against something. And here's the interesting part. For the most part, not in all situations, but for the most part, he does not interfere. For the most part, he lets you do your thing. For the most part, he stays out the way. Yeah. Now, the problem is the business of Madison Square Garden usually interferes with the basketball operations and obviously the politics and the PR because he's so petulant and so petty in certain ways that it gets in the way. having season tickets snatched away or tickets snatched away from a patron because all he's on video asking you to sell the team and you're that petty.

It's a problem when you're making, when you know that the Knicks are trying to go after Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irvin and you're making news for having a newspaper banned from your press conference, like the New York Tilly News. That's a problem. Right. Because it just gives every indication that the circus is in town, led by this man. And players today don't have to deal with that. We didn't even bring up the money, the cost of living, you know, taxes that are exacted against you.

I mean, you know, it's over 11.5% in New York City, my man. Okay? People ain't trying to give up that much of that money. You can be in Texas or other places unless you're in the warm weather that is California. A lot of people ain't trying to deal with that. So you got a whole bunch of things going against you. But certainly that's near the top of the list. You just don't want that headache.

And that's why I couldn't encourage somebody, the serious thinker, you got to remember, Masai Ujiri is, you know, he's somewhat politically active, if not more than somewhat. You know, he cares about his nation of people. He cares about addressing Congress and bringing certain issues to the forefront and what have you. He's serious about life, not just about basketball. Imagine him taking the New York job and having to deal with that nonsense. It would drive him crazy. Do you think, because I remember Colin Coward did this once. He had this whole riff that I was jealous of about when Notre Dame wasn't good for a long period of time and people felt like

Notre Dame was good. And yet his argument was, if you're 18, you have no recollection of Notre Dame being good. You just know that they weren't good. So why is that an appealing place to play? You look at the Knicks, LJ's three point shot was 20 years ago. It was literally 20 years ago. If I'm a 25 year old NBA superstar

looking for a team to settle down in, if I'm Kyrie Irving, Kyrie's, I guess, 26. And I have no recollection. I have no recollection of the Knicks being good. All I know is 20 years of dysfunction and I can rattle off my head the 15 terrible things that have happened and all the losing and all the lottery appearances and all the things I've read online about James Dolan and Charles Oakley getting booted and, you know, you could go on and on and on. I don't, I mean, you talk about Willis Reed

coming out of the tunnel. It was 50 years ago. He doesn't give a shit about that. Bernard King, that was 40 years ago. Well, you point to, you look at it a different way. You look at it as they haven't won in a long time. The jump to four-point play was 20 years ago.

All this other stuff. You know what I think about? I think about all of those years that Patrick Ewan, Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, Charles Smith and those boys, John Starks and them, they were going to the playoffs, right? Not one single championship to

show for it. And even when Jordan retired, you went to the finals against Houston. As great as Ewing was, he wasn't a team to dream Olajuwon. And on top of it all, Pat Riley, who was your coach, acquires

Rolando Blackman during that season and still allows John Starks to shoot two for 18, one for 11 from three-point range, and ultimately fail to deliver an NBA championship in a seven-game series loss to the Sam Cassells, Kenny Smith, Keeman Dreamer Lodge, one of those guys of the world.

So even when things were going great, you still don't have a glorious moment to show for it. Yeah, but, you know, I do think that Knicks team really still matters to people of multiple generations just because, you know,

gritty, physical, played hard. It just kind of felt, reflected the city in some weird way. So I do think there's an affection for those teams, right? Well, it's an affection for those teams, but the reality is, is that there's no championship to show for it. There's no parade down Broadway to show for it. You know, there's a reason why Patrick Ewing is loved, but Derek Jeter is deified, you know, because there's championships to show for it. Let's stop acting like it doesn't matter.

It matters. You know, at some point in time, you got to have that kind of moment that says, I'm a champion. You know, you got to be in that room. You know, you got a lot of people that think like that and they feel firmly in their beliefs about that. And I don't blame them one bit. You got to close at some point in time in life. Here's what a championship means. You've closed. Well, think about what we do. You could do what a lot of people do.

But at some point in time, you have to establish yourself as elite at what you do. And when it comes to teams, you ain't elite unless you had a championship. Think about eight years ago. Dirk, we had already decided on. We sent in our verdict. It was like, yeah, that guy is Karl Malone for this generation.

He doesn't have it. Superstar, but he can't win a title with him. In 2011, all of a sudden, he kicks ass for four rounds and he's a champ. Completely changes how we felt about him, where we put him historically, who we compare him to. So, you know, I think part of this, you know, but I've talked to Barkley about this because Barkley,

I think he came on my podcast like eight years ago and he talked about the shit list, he called it, about how when you don't win a title, you end up on this shit list. And they would always talk about these guys and they would list the dudes and it'd be like, you know, Dan Marino and et cetera, et cetera. And he would always feel really bad because he was on that list. And it was like, those were all great players that just happened to not win a title. Unfortunately, it does matter. You know, it matters that you never had that one moment for Barkley. It was 93 toe to toe against MJ toe to toe. And MJ was just like, you know,

2% better. And that's just the reality of it. If he had, if he had had that 93 sons team one year later, probably wins the title. So there's some luck to it. But at the same time, people saying it doesn't matter is stupid, I think. It doesn't matter. Well, I will say this to you, too. You point out to Barkley. Understand how most people look at Charles Barkley. Charles Barkley comes into the league, okay, in 1984.

So you're talking about his first or second season with Billy Cunningham as the coach of the Philadelphia 76ers, him winning 58 games. Well, let's remember who some of his teammates were. Oh, God. Yeah, Maurice Cheeks as a teammate. Yeah. Yeah, Dr. J. Julius Irving as a teammate. Yeah, one of the greatest six men who have ever played the game,

and Bobby Jones playing the game. Moses Malone was his teammate. Andrew Toney was his teammate. So when you look at it from that perspective, we keep saying, and Barkley, listen, he's my friend. I love him dearly. I love him like a brother. We all know that. But Barkley, we keep saying mistakenly, his best chance to win a title was with Phoenix. No, it wasn't. Jordan was waiting. Jordan was better. And quite frankly, the Bulls were better than the Phoenix Suns. When you look at the Philadelphia 76ers and how loaded they were, yes, the Boston Celtics and the Lakers were a dynasty,

but their title confrontations got interrupted on several occasions. It got interrupted by the Twin Towers and Ralph Sands and the dream of Lajuan one year when they were able to knock off the Lakers before losing to Boston in the finals. It got interrupted in 83 by the 76ers. It got interrupted by the Detroit Pistons in the latter part of the decade. There were opportunities for Charles Barkley as a young player with the Philadelphia 76ers to win. What did they say happened? You have people recognizing his greatness, understanding he's a Hall of Famer, but you have Hall of Famers that point to the lack of dedication he had early on in his career that they believe cost the Sixers a title here or there.

So I agree with that. But I also think the Andrew Toney going down probably changed that too a little bit. Sure. As a Celtics fan, I could vouch firsthand that that guy was unstoppable. But I also think the 97, the Rockets Jazz, it was on Hardwood Classics recently. I was watching the game six.

Stockton makes the shot. They make the finals. Barkley's not in great shape that year. And they had a better team than Utah. And I think when I, I wrote about this in my book, I think the difference

between Carl Malone and Barkley, ultimately, why I had Malone one spot ahead of him. Malone was always in condition. Always. Barkley was more talented, but I feel like he left a couple seasons

on the table a little bit. Wait, I have to ask you one more thing before you go. Sure. Your job right now, it seems like in the NBA, especially with Twitter, where, you know, we both like to criticize people.

You're doing it on ESPN, on a high-profile show that you know a lot of people to criticize people. You're doing it on ESPN on a high profile show that you know a lot of people are watching and they get mad sometimes. And I had this, I got a taste of this when I did Countdown those two years and I would say something. And then it was a little bit earlier in Twitter,

but I remember one time I talked about how the Warriors couldn't shoot. Draymond Green, why is he shooting threes? And he came at me on Twitter and I'm like, what's going on? Like, he saw that? He's mad about it? He's tweeting at me?

But now this, this is a recurring thing now with players defending themselves against people like us, but you're still firing away. How has that changed how you think about this job

and what's been like a funny example of just somebody coming at you? Hasn't changed how I think about the job at all. I don't give a damn what they say. Let me be very, very clear. I really don't. And the reason why is because number one, I know that my humanity is always intact. I'm not purposely trying to hurt anybody. I'm not, I get paid to do this. And I believe it or not, even though obviously I'm critical, I don't view it that way. I view it as people asking me a question and me giving them an empty gymnasium or anything like that. You have said, I believe I'm so great that I'm going to put my talent on public display to compete with others who feel the same. Let's go at it and see who's better. And we are

chronicling who's better, who's not, and why or why not. That's how I view it. Now, the players get caught up in it because they have agendas. And the agenda is to maximize the potential or to maximize whatever exploits they put on display. So it's not just about the check that you're looking to garner or get from a team, but it's also the branding and the money that you can make off the court and things of that nature. That, along with the advent of social media and beyond, giving you a voice, which therefore makes you believe that you have a license not to talk to anybody,

okay, you're going to exercise that to the best of your ability. And oh, by the way, it's not just athletes that do it. We have a president of the United States that talks on Twitter far more than he talks to the media covering the White House. But that's how it goes. We understand that. But what I say to them is the audience is always going to listen to the media. You can think you can circumvent us all you want to. The audience is always going to listen to the media. You can think you can circumvent us all you want to. The audience is always going to listen to the media because the audience is going to always recognize that there's a level of authenticity that comes with it,

a level of objectivity that comes with it, or unapologetic subjectivity. That's also going to come with it, as opposed to you being a player, which obviously has your own self-interest above everything else, therefore not necessarily giving the audience the level of objectivity that they would appreciate or welcome. So they're going to have a use for us. They'll be interested in hearing what you have to say, but they're still going to come to a Stephen A. Smith or Bill Simmons to see what we have to say about it because we're not personally invested. We're

just calling it like we see it. That's the real world. That's the way it goes. And as I've said to many people on many, many occasions, I have no ill intent. I have no hatred in my heart. I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I'm just trying to do my job, be recognized for it, get paid handsomely for it, and go to hell home. But let's make sure we understand something here. When it comes to Bill Simmons and when it comes to Stephen A. Smith, we ain't exchanging Christmas gifts with these people. We ain't eating Thanksgiving dinner with these people. Whether you talk to me or not, I'm going to still do my job, and they need to get over that. And if they can't, that's a personal problem that they'll have to figure out how to deal with because damn it, I'm going to be

who I am. This is the way it's going to be. Well, you mentioned the key word authenticity. I feel like if I'm critical of somebody, it's always going to be from an authentic place that was well-researched and well thought out. I do not have agendas. I'm not trying to hurt people. But if I don't call it like I see it with whatever is going on, then why would somebody care what my opinion is? Well, let's also understand something very important. You can research and still be wrong. I know I have.

Yeah, me too. But so what? As long as I'm willing, as long as I'm willing, and I've said this to many players, if I'm wrong publicly, I'll apologize publicly. I'll say so publicly. I'm not perfect. I'm not infallible.

I think I'm pretty damn good, but I'm far from perfect. The point that I'm trying to make is that you're going to be wrong sometimes. That's okay. Yeah. The question is, do you have malicious intent or do you spread misinformation with an objective and agenda to hurt other people? I can proudly say from my soul, I have never done that to another human being ever. And I never will. Yeah.

And guess what? It's a, it's okay to not agree with everybody else on stuff sometimes. Exactly. Um, all right, this was fun. Exactly. All right. This was fun. Thanks for doing this.

You can watch Steve and Ann first take. You can... Oh, there might be some NBA stuff for you too. I doubt it. Rumors percolating. We'll see. Don't believe everything you read. That's all I'll tell you. We stood next to each other.

We watched the Ray Allen shot together. Remember we would have those little stupid stage things they would put up in Miami? And we would watch the games. That's how we got to know each other. That's exactly correct. And I think I might have turned to you and Jalen and said, why isn't Popovich putting Duncan in the game? What's going on here?

You know what? Does he have diarrhea? What's going on? Where is he? Where's Duncan? You absolutely did. That's the truth. You did do that.

I went right on TV after and I killed him. I was like, I don't understand. Tim Duncan's the fifth best player of all time. How is he not in the game when I need one rebound and I'm up five? Especially when you know what you need is a rebound. Yeah. Popovich. That guy.

All right. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. No problem, buddy. Take it easy. All right. We're going to talk Appreciate it. No problem, buddy. Take it easy. All right. We're going to talk to Wesley. Wanted to talk about Allbirds shoes.

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drunk driving crashes still claim more than 10,000 lives each year. Drunk driving can have a big impact on your wallet too. You get arrested, incur huge legal expenses. You can maybe even lose your job. So what can you do to prevent drunk driving? Plan a safe ride home before you start drinking. Designate a sober driver or call a taxi or a ride share. If someone you know has been drinking, take their keys, arrange for them to get a sober ride home. We all know the consequences of driving drunk,

but one thing's for sure, you're wrong if you think it's no big deal. Drive sober or get pulled over. All right, we're thing's for sure. You're wrong if you think it's no big deal. Drive sober or get pulled over. All right, we're bringing in Wesley Morris. Wesley Morris is here. He's in town doing just a slew of rewatchables. It's a rewatchables marathon. But since you're here, I thought we might as well grab you

for another podcast hit. You're here, you're in person. I am. Get to look at you and talk to you. Physically here. This is great. You're looking very relaxed today, by the way. Thanks. here. You're in person. I am. I get to look at you and talk to you. Physically here. This is great. You're looking very relaxed today, by the way. Thanks.

I just talked to Steve and I am very relaxed after that. It was fun. I mean, we did our own version of first take. It was great. It was so much fun. Love that guy. So we were talking yesterday about a couple of things and we both realized we should just talk about this on the pod.

One of them was euphoria, which House and I had talked about after episode five, the great carnival episode, but then hadn't talked about since the show ended. And I think we could talk about it without spoiling it for people who hadn't seen it yet. The reaction to the show, the things they tried to do were just really interesting to both of us. So you haven't written about it. Give us your thoughts. I think it's a really good show. I will say that I did not enjoy it for about the first maybe 20 minutes. I watched it with my friend Brett and every five,

every, I don't know, five seconds or so, I'd be like, we're turning this off. We're turning this off. We're turning this off. I mean, I kept saying it over and over again. We're turning this off. It's a raw show. Well, it wasn't the rawness.

It was the voiceover. I don't like narration. Oh, you just didn't like how it was done. I don't like narration. I don't like narration. So you and I are both on this corner. To me, it's like, if you're doing narration, I'm going to assume this is going to be bad

unless you talk me out of this. Yes. Talk me out of this. Shawshank had narration. Great. Well, you know how I feel about Shawshank. We're never discussing that ever. You're not invited on the Shawshank Rewatchables.

I'll tell you that much. Guess who's not invited? You. Y'all need somebody to tell the truth on Shawshank Rewatchables. There's no truth. No, you're not invited? You. Y'all need somebody to tell the truth on Shawshank. There's no truth. No, you're not invited. You need it.

You need it. Anyway, so after about 15 minutes, I don't remember what the, well, no, it was basically the end of the episode where Rue and- Rue's the transgender character. No, Rue's the protagonist. Oh, no, Rue's the protagonist. Jules is the transgender character no ruse the protagonist oh no ruse the protagonist so rules jules and rue rules huh i know wonder if that's gonna happen rules j rules they're just sitting out they're lying on on jules's bed and i'm like and it's a crane shot and i'm like i don't know where this is going, but I realized I had stopped saying to Brett that I want to turn it off.

And you're invested. And I want to know what happens next week. Because I actually think that show, for all the complaining that got done almost instantly about it, being like an unfair or irresponsible depiction of teenagers. I don't think the show's about teenagers. That's like saying Fast and Furious is an irresponsible depiction of car racing. Right. I mean, exactly. It's not supposed to be

anything other than just a crazy show about these characters and you're supposed to have intense relationships with them. That's fine. It's okay to do that with a TV show. Nobody's saying this is what LA high schools are like. No, but Wait, is it set? Where is it set. No, but- Wait, is it set? Where is it set?

I don't know. Where is it set? It's some amorphous, kind of outside of LA type suburb. This is the other thing about the show though that I think is really interesting, which is that it isn't a show- In the same way that I really believe that it's not really a show about teenagers in high school, I think it's a show about human behavior as enacted by- Dysfunctional human behavior. By teenagers in high school. I think it's a show about human behavior. Yes. As enacted by- Dysfunctional human behavior.

By teenagers in high school. Yeah. And what I think is great about the show is, I mean, it's sort of, by the end of the first season, it turns in, like it doubles down on its thrillerness and becomes committed to a kind of Fincher-esque

sort of superficial interest in the flashiness of human behavior as opposed to, like, really exploring what its implications are. But even then, it's still fascinating to me to watch these different types of people be themselves. And the other great thing about the show, and I don't know if you feel this way, but you're watching a show with a bunch of people who in a different show would have been othered in some way, or now their quote difference unquote would have been made their, their, their quote difference unquote would have been made special.

You've got two biracial, you've got two biracial sisters. You've a trans woman. You have an aggro toxically masculine white man. Which, which, which one, the quarterback or his dad? Two. Yeah. The quarterback and his, and his son. It's great father-son combo.

You have several Latinas. You have a black man. You have a couple white girls. But none of these people you have a young black man, a football player. And none of these people's characters are defined by their

sexual orientations or their racial identities. You're just watching these people who have these selves interact with each other. And the source of the tension is not the differences among them in any sort of like racial or sexual way. I mean, the sexual stuff and the racial stuff

doesn't not matter, but it isn't the engine of the plot, right? It's not a show, like HBO, I think, was in a bit of a pickle about how to make you want to watch the show

because it just seemed like it was like young people discovering their identities and I don't want to watch that show. Well, and also, it seemed like

part of the appeal, I'm sure, for HBO is they haven't had a controversial show in a while and they wanted it to be the controversial new HBO show, Euphoria. Right. But it's exceptionally well done. It is controversial. It is.

I mean, it's been made controversial. It's exceptionally well done and well acted. And I guess the basic point of the show is everybody's got something. Bill, what's yours? It's just like, hey, man. It's like, we're not judging here in Euphoria. No.

And it's funny because everybody is damaged in some way. And it's about how they all relate to each other while they kind of recover slash live with whatever damage they have. Yes. And the fucking Eric Dane character who, you know, he's, he's getting these hookers and by the seventh, seventh episode, he has the hooker and it's just like, it's gross. It's like, it's even for him. It's, it's, it's pushing it.

Right. But he still is doing his whole champagne thing. And it's like, oh, man, I feel bad for this guy. You do feel. And I'm like, I can't believe I feel bad for this guy. This is not a good guy. Not a good guy. But it did attach me to these people that I just didn't expect to be attached to.

At some point, we're going to have to meet that guy's dad. Right. We're going to meet. We're going to meet the granddad. Oh, the granddad. Yeah. You know, he's. And I think that, I mean, one of the things. Definitely're gonna meet the granddad oh the granddad yeah you know he's and i think that i mean one of the things definitely a basement with the granddad

but no i mean i do think that there's and also like nobody's ever asked eric dane to give an interesting performance right so like when he changes the tone of his voice when he's with when he's with other people who aren't these sexual partners he's he's very masculine and he's very he's like the dad a dad on friday night lights right he's he's extremely tough and extremely masculine but when he's in the hotel room with with you know his sex partners he's very soft and open and wants to share all the stuff in his life and is really it's where he opens up. His whole demeanor changes. And I don't know.

I like choices like that, right? On a show like this. And I also, I think that the best performance being given in this quarter of TV right now is Zendaya. Yeah. She is great on this show. Nobody's got better facial reactions than she does.

Who knew that she had these reactions? It feels like she's actually on drugs. Yeah. I believe her highs and her lows. These swings that she has, I feel like she's really having them as a human being. Yeah. Which is, that means you're

really doing a good job. I feel like she's going to win the Emmy. I'm bad at this. Is she even going to get nominated? Oh man, I would hope so. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. She is giving the best performance on TV. It's so intense. Yes. But it also is funny. She's so funny on this show. And this is the thing about TV that I love because it, and the theater is like this too. And I'm going to get you to see a show with me

at some point. Which one? I don't know. Some show. I saw the Sorkin show. The Kill a Mockingbird? Yeah. All right.

Well, then I guess you're good for the year. So insulting. No, I'm just saying you did, you made the effort.

I did. I mean, people like that show. It's good. There's some good stuff in it. But I'm just saying you did. You made the effort. I did. I mean, people like that show. It's good. There's some good stuff in it. But I'm just saying that like. I love when you get snobby with mainstream successful culture. It's fine.

Some decent stuff in there. Whatever. We could talk. We could like go into Kill a Mockingbird later. I think there are great things. I'm sorry. There's a central problem for me. Anyway, the thing about the theater and the thing about TV is that it gives, especially with all the TV that we have now, it gives all of these people actors who wouldn't otherwise have had an opportunity to show you something that you didn't even believe they had in them. There's a way that Zendaya is just some girl on a Disney show who was in

that bad P.T. Barnum movie with Hugh Jackman that had all the good songs. And this is a performance that I don't know if a movie director trusts her to give, right? I mean, maybe she kills it in the audition or something. I don't know.

25 years ago, this is basically my so-called life. That's a good ago. She, this is basically my so-called life. It's a good point. And you're not, and by the way, my so-called life's a good example of, she has a gay friend. Hey,

he's gay. Look at that gay guy. Hey, he's doing gay stuff. Yes. And that was like just the surface character. Everything about, uh,

Ricky's life was torture, right? Yeah. I mean, because he, like he was, but he was still Ricky and still gay. He was a weirdly important character

for that decade, but it wasn't exactly well-sketched. No, but I think that there was something about the bond that he and Angela had that made... Well, that was the first time we'd seen a girl

and a gay kid a gay boy just be friends on TV When did that ever happen? It was like the gay guy in Melrose Place Oh man Talk about surface character His whole thing was like hey I'm the gay guy What was that?

There was no gay people on TV in the 90s Doug Savant Matt I was going to say Matt What was that? There was no gay people on TV in the 90s. What was that guy's name again? Doug Savant. Right, but that was the actor. Matt. I was going to say Matt. Matt. I was going to say Matt.

Well, great. And so if you're Zendaya now, you're on, you have this, you've been given this part. And I mean, she has given it everything she has. And I don't even think she's, she has not even maxed out in terms of what she can do. I like your point about the more opportunities enables something like this to happen that we didn't know was going to happen. It would be like if the NBA expanded to 150 teams, which would be ludicrous. Well, you wouldn't really want that. No, but I'm saying we have 150 teams and then all of a sudden somebody's becoming the best

player in a team and we're just surprised. It was like, Oh wow. But didn't know they could do that. Right. Well, what's interesting though, is that there is still a lot of mediocre acting with all this TV on.

It's not like, I would say more than ever. It's not like there's, there's so much, there is more great acting probably per capita, but it's not like every show you watch has like a bunch of great acting on it. You've got like the pen 15 women who are just, if you watch that show,

my daughter was out. She thought they were too old. I was shocked. I know she was like, they don't look like they're 14 to me. I'm like, yeah, cause they're 28.

That's why, but she was out. So she didn't want to watch it. So I was out. All right. We got to talk to her because she's got to go back because the thing that's so funny about that show is that they are older. And it's how they have not forgotten all the muscle memory of being in middle school. I mean, I might start crying just thinking about how good those two women are on the show. So I should force her to watch it, like eating broccoli. And think about being like a 15 year old kid trying to keep a straight face a bunch of like amid a bunch of ridiculousness.

Like, I don't know how the kids on that show don't. They must be like it must be like the 18th take because I don't know how these like little kid actors are really keeping a straight face with these two women in these scenes. It's crazy. This show. Euphoria doesn't have that problem. No. With people keeping a straight face during the takes. There is a lot of ridiculousness crazy this show. Euphoria doesn't have that problem. No. With people keeping a straight face during the takes. No, but there is a lot of ridiculousness

on this show. And the thing about Zendaya is she really there's a way of being funny with your body that I don't know as an actor how you do it. But there's something in her that is just naturally funny. And her

sense of humor is guiding this part, not her sense of tragedy. And I think she trusts that the writing is going to do the hard sort of melodramatic work. And that just sort of lets her do more interesting stuff as a performer, especially with her slack face and the sort of stoned, not even glassy-eyed. She just has a sense of wonder that seems like drugginess.

I don't know. This is one of those once-in-a-lifetime special performances. You just said she wasn't even getting nominated for an Emmy. But what are those? I mean, with all due respect to Emmy voters, what do those people know? They don't know anything. It took Jodie Comer two times of being on

Killing Eve to get an Emmy nomination. I don't know what they didn't see the first season that they saw this season, but she was just as good this time

as she was the last time. I don't... Awards are weird. That's all I'm saying. I can't trust those Emmy voters to all have watched the show and to think Zendaya

is as good as I know she is. You and Sean are doing a rewatchable is about to do the right Thing today. Yes, yes. And that was 30 years ago. Not nominated.

Well, not nominated for Best Picture. Yeah. Or, you know, any more supporting actor categories are nominees than Danny Aiello. Not nominated for Best Picture or Best Director. No, director not. But that's just how it worked.

It's rough. Just how it worked.'s rough just how it worked i'm not saying it's okay they all they frequently get it wrong yeah that's all we still do if there's any consolation we still get stuff right it hasn't changed anything else catching your eye from a tv standpoint uh because i actually think i've i've come around a little on tv i've actually thought we've had a good tv season i I've enjoyed stuff. Oh, yeah. I mean, everything. I love Fleabag.

I thought Killing Eve was good. Chernobyl was amazing. Stop. Fleabag. I like Succession. There is another show that I don't know how they make that show. It's not a show. It's six 25-minute episodes.

It has no correlation to anything. Whatever we're calling it. It's like a six-episode movie. I don't know how they did it. And Phoebe Waller-Bridge and the actor who plays the priest, whose name I can't remember. The hot priest? First of all. That's what Kate and Liz call it.

You don't have to. Tea time. No, they just. Before I started to watch the show, they were like, there's a hot priest. And I'm like, what? Yeah. Did Carrie think the priest was hot? Carrie ate the show.

She poured barbecue sauce on it and chowed it down like she hadn't had a meal in 10 years. She loved Fleabag more than anything. You can watch this man and agree that he is a handsome guy. But he's more than handsome. There's something, and this is a thing that I think a lot of people, I haven't heard anybody talk about this, but I've talked to some friends about this. The thing that makes him hot on that show is the struggle, right? The struggle about something as simple as whether to fuck this woman.

Right. And to like, let himself do more than love her Because the real, the loving isn't the problem. It's the what to do with the love that he's struggling with. And how you act that, again, I don't know how these two people, especially him, because I think she's been playing this character for a long time. Yeah. But this guy is just, what is his name? she, she, she's been playing this character for a long time. Yeah. And,

but this guy is just, what is his name? Can somebody find his name? I just want to know. Andrew Scott. Andrew Scott. Well, but it's the struggle of should we or shouldn't we,

which we've now seen in every variation. We've just never seen it with the priest. Right. But that's what, that's why it feels different. But again, he's so, he's funny in the struggle is not just the thing that's what that's why it feels different but again he's so he's funny in the

struggle is not just the thing that's so painful about this about this thing as a work of art is that it gets at every level of of of desire right it is it is the struggle about whether or not to do a thing that you you know you shouldn't do. You know you shouldn't do, but you know also that if you did do it, maybe it would work out. But I also think he's thinking, is she somebody

that I really want to take this leap with? Yeah. Like, is she going to change? And that was the other thing about the show. Maybe she was going to change. Maybe she was going to grow up.

And this was going to be the relationship that's going to change. Maybe she was going to grow up. And this was going to be the relationship that's going to alter her unpredictability and her instability. But maybe he's attracted to both those things too. I don't know. That show, it is a miracle of writing, directing, and acting. A true miracle. I've talked about this on a pod so i'm going to gloss over quick but i thought that kristin scott thomas episode was all time yes yes i was really i was

honestly blown away i was like this is one of the best 10 minute sequences i've ever seen in a tv show i also think the first episode which is just set in that restaurant for the most part is a great episode. There's also a shot of her sitting at that bus stop that just, I wept. There's just a shot of her sitting at the bus stop with a slack jawed look of upset disappointment and shock

on her face. And something about her face and her body, I just, they just moved me. I don't know. This show... You know what's funny about her? High approval rating right now. Mm-hmm. It's, you don't see it that often.

Well, what could she do to squander it? Yeah, it's like, right now she's 100. Like, if we had a presidential election and she was a candidate,

it would be like, well, Phoebe Walbridge has 100. Yeah. Whoa, that's high. The donations are pouring in, you guys. But I do wonder high. The donations are pouring in, you guys.

But I do wonder, anytime we've seen this happen, and we're both old enough to have seen this happen a few times, there's always the misfire. There's the IMDb misfire that's coming where it's like, oh, she's going to be Batwoman

or some sort of terrible misstep. So I'm sure it's going to happen. Yeah, but I mean, she also did the first season of Killing Eve and didn't do the second season. And the show was not as good for it, I would say. I mean, Sandra Oh and Jodie Comer are still really good. And I mean, all the acting on that show was really good. But there is a tension.

All of the tension that's between Andrew Scott and Phoebe Waller-Bridge on this batch of episodes for Fleabag is missing from Sandra Oh and Jodie Comer from the first season of Killing Eve. I mean, all of that tension, I think, comes out of Phoebe Waller-Bridge's writing, right? in these scenarios in which you have to keep balanced about five different ideas in a single moment that a lot of popular culture does not give an actor an opportunity to try to do. Are you in on Succession or no? Oh, no. Okay. First of all, everybody in my life who's heard me talk about Succession knows that- Don't ask you about it?

No, do ask. Just be disappointed. Just be ready to be disappointed. I do not understand why people love this show so much. I am addicted to it, which is a testament to how decently it's made. I am watching the second season. Okay. Huh?

No, I'm listening. I'm with you. Okay. I just don't... Here's my thing about this show. I don't think... There's a lot of things I need to be convinced that the people making the show

and the people on the show know what they're doing. Now, I know when I say this to people, people are like, well, the show's about people who don't know what they're doing. I understand that. But we're at a point where we're at a point in this

family's relationship where the company has done really well for a long time. Yeah. I'm not seeing anything on this show that convinces me that the company would have done as well as it has been doing.

Oh, wow. You're going there. I don't even, is Logan Roy really good at his job? Is he? Are you giving me an, are we sure Logan Roy's good? I mean, but here's the thing about this show

that I don't think anybody's really prepared to talk about. This show is about whiteness. This show is about the privilege of a bunch of white people to just be given the benefit of the doubt based on their whiteness and the and their i would throw their wealth in the other joke now is that that isn't

good enough in 2018 and 19 yeah that's the comedy right you are watching these entitled white people fail but i don't believe based on what i'm seeing, I need a reel. I need some like 1960. I need like, I need- Oh, like when he started, you know, Apple. Yes. He had some amazing brainstorm. I need some highlight reel

of Logan Roy's great business triumphs. Or I need like Jonathan Mahler of the New York Times Magazine who wrote this great story about the Murdochs. I need that treatment with Jim Rudenberg. Jim Rudenberg and Jonathan Mahler wrote this great epic. Yeah, I read it. Right.

So I want that treatment given to this fan. I want some version of that. It only takes five minutes. I will be in on this show 100%. So you think he started AOL? Something like that? Right, something. And then sold it in 99?

Because there are all these other business family corollaries, right? Like, there are any number, there's so many of, not so many other, but there's a handful of families that the Roys are allegedly or could be based on

or like are very similar to. I just don't believe, I don't believe the show. And I don't believe that the dynamics among the siblings. I feel like if you're Logan Roy, aside from the fact that somebody's got to run the business, why does it, does it have to be these kids? Like, does it, I mean, maybe Shiv, but what business experience does she have?

Like, and does she, she just wants it because they want it, right? I don't know. I just, I feel like. See, my biggest criticism is I don't understand why Shiv and Tom are together. Oh, well, that's just called marriage. No, but I just, I don't understand

why they haven't gotten divorced. How they even had a date. I just don't get it at all. It seems like an arranged marriage, but he's not bringing enough to the table from his end. This is how we know you're straight. Because there is something about Tom

that at least I can imagine waking up one day and being like, oh wait, I married him? Because it was fun for a little while. He's, there's something about Matthew McFadden and his, being like, oh, wait, I married him? Because it was fun for a little while. There's something about Matthew McFadyen and his big not dumb dumbness. I can't explain it, but there's something about him that is charismatic enough,

maybe not to marry, to your point. But I don't even think she's that attracted to him because she was having an affair with this other person. She probably isn't. She probably isn't. I just don't get it. It seems like if it's going to be like this arranged, high-level, white, rich, elite marriage,

he should have been bringing something to the table from this end. I don't even know how you got me to stick up for that marriage, by the way. That was a good trick. Like, I don't even, why am I arguing with this? I don't know. I'm actually with you. I don't know why this i arguing with this i don't know i'm actually with you i don't know why this house and i love shiv i everybody loved that everybody loved that

whether it was intentional or not they stumbled into her name being siobhan with the nickname being shiv and she's shiving right people left i actually don't think she's that devious yet like i don't but it's coming though you can feel it coming i can you can feel it coming i also think the piano is really important for that show. It has one of the most important. The piano just moves things along and makes everything seem so weighty at all times. I like rich people being rich shows. It's one of my vices.

I'm sorry, but- You don't have to be sorry about that. The wedding in, where was the wedding? In Scotland? That's all of world culture is rich people being rich. I like giant mansions and fucked up helicopter trips and weird bachelor parties and giant clubs I've never heard of. I'm in all the time. You just described the Jane Austen novel.

Right. I mean, I don't know. That's why I like Billions too. I like watching rich, totally out of control rich people. Do you think this is a witch show? I mean, not that they have to be better or worse, but do you like both shows? I do. I really like both shows. And it's not like

I like this show more than that show. I enjoy both of them. I enjoy them for different reasons. Right. What are the different reasons? What is Billions doing that Succession is or isn't doing? Billions, I feel like I've been with the characters longer.

It's been on longer. Yeah, it's been on longer. Even before now? It's Koppelman and Levine, and I just know those guys and the rhythm of how they write stuff. And it just feels like it's kind of an easier watch for me because I just get it. And Succession, the whole time I'm like, what the hell is going on? Every time I think it's going a certain place, it goes a different place.

Sometimes it's super disappointing. Yeah. I thought Logan Roy was going to die. Now he's like throwing fastballs again. Yeah. I mean, what is his secret? He's all of a sudden back. And there's just all these layers and secrets that I hope they have a plan

I don't this is so you're worried it's like a lost thing where they just got the show made and they had no idea what's going to happen in season 5 they could be doing musical numbers in about 4 episodes I don't know and that would maybe be exciting but I don't

I just don't I'm watching the show because it's become a thing now that I like fighting with people about. And I also want to see what happens when my mind changes, because I actually think I'm going to reach some sort of creative, the juices on that show are going to start flowing creatively in a way that are going to work for me. Well, that's usually what happens with these shows, right? First season, especially when it's a guy, I think it's Jesse Armstrong, the guy who does the show. First big show. Usually the first season,

oh, that's turned out even better than we thought. Second season, you got to repeat it and than we thought second season you gotta repeat it and dealing with all the criticism you got for it for the first time that's usually it's the third season when the show becomes whatever it becomes yeah I mean do people have that kind of patience anymore I mean I wonder

I don't know Kyle does Kyle loves these shows wait Kyle are you watching are you or noions or no Succession and you're not out I'm not out I just caught up he's been talking about it forever I just caught up before the second season Kyle really wants us to have Shiv on the podcast

I would support she is I never said it but you read my mind there is something captivating about her and the actress who plays her great character great actress for just a good match it's a good match of actor with part and the actress who plays her. Great character, great actress. Just a good match of those two. It's a good match of actor with part.

I think there's some other, like the Culkin who gets all the best lines now. Oh, Kieran, yeah. Yeah. He's really good, but they're also really giving him material. I really don't. You just don't like him.

I don't. It's not Kieran Culkin that I don't like. And I don't need to like, we just talked about Euphoria. Most of those people are awful. I don't need it's not Kieran Culkin that I don't like. I, and I don't need to like, we just talked about Euphoria. Most of those people are awful. I don't need to like the characters, but what, I mean, my favorite show, and I told you this yesterday, I think one of the greatest shows

in the history of this, of television period, but especially this Mount Rushmore era oriented TV is Orange is the New Black. There are so many unpleasant people on that show, but it has nothing to do with like that shows, that does not compromise the show's excellence. It makes the show even better because there's so many unpleasant people on it.

But there's something about the brothers, the two brothers in particular on this show, where I feel like there's a thing that happens at the end of, in the last episode of the first season that I will not spoil for anybody who has not watched it yet that you kind of can feel coming because it's the kind of show that needs a thing like this to happen but i don't believe in that moment either i do not believe that thing that happens when he leaves the house and goes and does the thing you know

what i'm talking about i know i about. I don't believe in it. And I also don't believe, I think it's a way to sort of further double down on the thing that I'm talking about this show being actually about, which is like the sort of handcuffs-lessness of whiteness, right? Where like, of course, of course, you know,

they'll find a way to make this problem go away. Right. Because that's the world they live in. I also, here's another thing that I'm thinking about when I watch this show. I don't know if you remember Robert Townsend's stand-up special, his stand-up comedy show. From the late 80s? Right, yes. Yeah.

Robert Townsend's Partners in Crime. Yeah. There was a sketch, a recurring sketch on that show called the bold the black the beautiful and succession to me is like it is all if it's possible to be a parody of a parody in some ways where there's just something about this show just seems like a joke on something that it hasn't quite figured out the joke for yet. But don't you think the end game of this is Logan Roy gets accused of sexual assault by, or sexual harassment by

nine people that worked with him over the years? We find out the whole time he's been like Harvey Weinstein or Dominic Strauss-Kahn. Yeah, there's like a, I feel like there's a Me Too moment coming with him that just kind of has to happen because there's, this has happened so many times now with the Roger Ailes, Les Moonves, Harvey Weinstein,

that we haven't seen a TV show really go after it. Maybe. And it's set up for this show to be the show, I feel like. But then doesn't that change? I feel like. No, because it's a show about succession. We need a catalyst for somebody,

for them to actually really try to see who's succeeding. Well, this is interesting because I do think the ambiguity around the business operations of, of, of the Roy's business itself is, is so it needs something to give that business some clarity. Right.

They, and we just found out last week, they owned a website that had 476 employees. This is, again, again, again, like, is that a joke or is it proof? They're all in one office somehow. Right. That's amazing. I don't know.

I just, I keep watching this show again because it's fun to talk about and I love the people who love it, but I also am waiting to see if it's fun to talk about and I love the people who love it. But I also am waiting to see if something's going to happen. Last question. Best movie you've seen in 2019? Oh, God. Shit. We have four months left.

You might not have seen it yet. I might. I don't know. I've seen some good stuff this year, though. Oh, good Lord. Hobbs and Shaw? No. I like Us. I think Us is really, you know.

Really? I don't think it works all the way. Oh, I was so disappointed. Yeah, lots of people were. I think my expectations were too high. Lots of people were. I think it's a really good second viewing kind of situation. My girl's in it though.

Lupita? Yeah. No, she's wonderful. Lupita Nyong'o is wonderful. She is really good at this movie. I support all Lupita. Let's see. I think The Nightingale is really good. A movie nobody has seen by Jennifer Kent that is about

how Australia really came to be australia with their irish prisoners and kyle's mojo right there and kyle was just talking about that the other day have you seen the nightingale no dude oh get thee to a movie theater asap because nobody's seeing it it might leave tomorrow oh god but jennifer kent one of our great filmmakers and nobody i mean she made the babadook if thatook. If that's a selling point for anybody. The Babadook! I love that movie! The maker of The Babadook. She made The Babadook?

Yep. The maker of The Babadook is back. That movie's outstanding. A really brutal historical western. What'd you think of that fucked up movie where they're all outside? I still haven't seen it. The horror movie where they're outside, they go somewhere on a trip and... midsummer yeah uh i think that guy's a really good director this is not a really

good movie okay i like is i like hereditary much better than i like this um yeah hereditary is good i also like um uh i mean the tarantino movie is the other thing. You know, I truly, the more I've seen it three times, we talked about it already, but I love it. It's great. Not Hobbs and Shaw. I like the two of them. You want me to say something nice about Hobbs and Shaw? I love the two of them together.

I think that Dwayne Johnson and Jason Statham really have something. And the problem with the movie, and I wrote a review of this movie for the New York times and I did, I did, I did. And, uh,

I think that the thing that's really weird about that movie is they should just have sex already. They should just do it because the movie knows that there's like the joke. I don't like it. It's like tango and cash, same kind of sexual energy. It's the same thing except it's more intense here

because the way that they use the sister character who's played by the woman who's on the crown she has more sexual intensity with Jason Statham who's her brother than The Rock ding ding they've never figured out The Rock in movies with love interest well there's a lot you have to explain

about him because it's like it's like he's like the fucking hulk he doesn't right you have to explain i was thinking about this i like girl okay wait so that's not that is not his problem the problem is that you have to do like he in order to make him normal you have to do so much work to explain why he's like that. So Ballers kind of works. The show is terrible, but that is a world in which he kind of makes sense because it's, it is sports and there's a great Taylor on the show. So great Taylor,

there is a great, the, the, the Taylor on that show deserves an Emmy. I don't know if the person's nominated, but the costume designer on that show is a plus plus tough. Schwarzenegger had the same problem. Right. In movies where it was just, you can pass a point physically where I don't know who the match is. But the thing about The Rock that really,

Jason Statham has had, I think Jason Statham has not peaked, but I've seen all Jason Statham can give me. I have not seen, I think Dwayne Johnson might, I know this is going to sound crazy, but I think he might actually retire or something without having done it. The one great role. He's got four great roles in him, but I think that the way the movies work now. His role is pain and Gain,

just in terms of the most surprising performance. Yeah, Southland Tales, Pain and Gain are his two best roles in that mode. But he's also good in his movie star mode for the most part. But the problem with the movies now is they'll never let him be interesting enough to be more than a funny big guy who.

With witty. Who's a wit and has good chemistry. Witty disses. What he needs, what he really needs. Here are some things that he should, people he should work with. He needs a Melissa McCarthy or a Tiffany Haddish. Somebody who's going to crack him up. Right.

I don't know. Tiffany Haddish just doesn't make enough movies. I don't know how you'd get her. She's tough. She just doesn't want to work. I'm ignoring you. Kevin Hart doesn't want to work either. That guy, how do you get him in front of a movie set?

He and Kevin Hart have something, but Kevin Hart, I think I would love to see him with a woman. He and Charlize Theron would be great together in something. I just feel like there's a kind of- Basic Instinct 2? No. Maybe a sex thriller? You're going the wrong way.

It has to be something that's just like they're raising a family together. A divorce movie? Or a divorce movie. Something that doesn't require his body. Kramer versus Kramer 2? Yeah. I'm not kidding. Directed by Noah Baub Yeah. I'm not kidding.

Directed by Noah Baubach? I'm not kidding. Make it, well, that movie's coming too. I do, I don't know. I feel like the problem with The Rock is people are afraid to use

their imaginations with him. And the great thing about Southland Tales is that, is that Richard Kelly, who made that film, was not. Yeah.

And like everybody, I think that like the professional wrestling made him a star. And I think it's the cross he's had to bear ever since. Hashtag free the rock. Wesley, we'll read you in the New York Times. I'm looking forward to the piece you told me about. When is that coming?

Which one? The one we talked about a lot yesterday. Oh, I'm writing a friend story. Probably in like a couple weeks. Oh. It's, you know,

it's a great show. I'm going to write about why it's great. I'm reading it. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much to Stephen A.

and Wesley Morris. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to the Ringer NFL show, Against All Odds with Cousin Sal, and Dual Threat with Ryan Rosillo. Check out all those football podcasts.

Thanks to Allbirds. Their new Trino socks combine everything you love about Allbirds shoes, which have been called the most comfortable in the world. Available in three different silhouettes, crew socks, no-shows, and quarter lengths. Trino socks will match perfectly with your Merino wool shoes

or your tree shoes by Allbirds. Get your own pair of the new Trino socks at allbirds.com. Back later in the week with one more podcast. Don't forget about the rewatchables. We did Fatal Attraction. That is up right now. Until then.