The Bill Simmons Podcast - Super Bowl Lessons and Super-duper-star Steph 2.0 With Kevin Clark and Logan Murdock

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss the Buccaneers' Super Bowl victory, Tampa Bay’s coaching, upcoming free agents, the NFL salary cap, the QB carousel, and more (3:00). Then Bill talks with The Ringer’s Logan Murdock about Steph Curry, Logan’s time covering the Kevin Durant Warriors, the Warriors' playoff chances this year, and more (45:30). Finally, Kevin Clark rejoins the podcast to discuss Boxing and MMA (1:25:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I did a new Rewatchables taxi driver. Me, Sean Fantasy, Bill Hader. That happened, that is up. I think we have two coming next week. New, uh, episode of sports cards. Nonsense is up as well. They had Gary V uh, famous, uh, investors slash cards person. He was on there. Don't forget about black girl songbook as well. Those are our two new ringer releases. We have some really good stuff coming up in February and March as well. Coming up, we're going to talk to the Ringers' Kevin Clark about

the lessons from Sunday Night Super Bowl. I wanted to mention, we taped this in the morning and a couple hours later got some devastating news that Therese Paler, the excellent, excellent, excellent writer and podcaster for Yahoo that he passed away tragically at age 37. Don't know all

the details yet, but I was a long time admirer of his work and Kevin was friends with him and talked football with them and knew him really well. And he's somebody we definitely would have talked about during the course of our conversation. Rest in peace, condolences to his family and his colleagues. That's a really tough one. He was a really talented guy. Going to miss having him around in football season and just in general. So wanted to mention that. After Kevin, Logan Murdoch is going to come on. We're going to talk about Steph and the Warriors.

That is all next. All right, Kevin Clark is here. He's coming off a very busy Super Bowl week. He did a bunch of slow news days, did a live podcast on Sunday night, then wrote a piece. You went Peter King style. You have like a latte at three in the morning. What happened? I did. I had the latest coffee I've had.

I would say every Super Bowl I have maybe a 1 a.m. coffee. It's really the only time I do that. But I was feeling good. Yeah. It's fun to jump on all the angles right after the game. And then as the hours pass, realize things you missed, things you didn't see, things you wish you had hit harder. I think for me, thinking back in that game, and Sal and I were pretty definitive about, you know, the Bucs were better. They had real matchup advantages.

They deserved to win. They were a better team. The matchup, they're going to win that game most of the time. I think the part that I probably missed was how many drops and misses and almosts the Chiefs had. Like the one time they get an interception, it happens when there's a penalty on another part of the field. The plays where Mahomes is scrambling for his life, you know, trying to create the play out of nowhere,

and the guys actually had a chance to make them. Over and over again. Their guys just never made the play. So I guess my first question would be, if we played this game 20 times, how many times would the Bucks win? I'm going to say 15 to 16, considering the offensive line deficiencies of the Chiefs. But I do think there's scenarios where the Chiefs win.

If you run the entire scenario, that means Mike Remmers and Andrew Wiley at tackle and all that stuff, I would say 17 to 18. I just didn't see much of a path forward because I think, you know, we've talked a lot about Todd Bowles the last few days in his defensive game plan. I promise you Todd Bowles did not invent trying to take away the deep pass from Patrick

Mahomes, but what he was able to do, first of all, scheme the pressure up front, which was amazing, but also the linebackers were so good and so fast and the ability for Devin White to take away some of those underneath stuff. Levante David, obviously, we saw him stick with Kelsey on some of those plays. And so I think that there was just more depth there at this point in the season for the Bucs. And I just think that the fact that Mahomes is playing a different game, I 29 pressures from mahomes four for brady that was the biggest disparity on record ever they couldn't find a game not a super bowl a game where there was that big a disparity like mahomes at some point we've spent the last two years being like okay he's like a john wick just give him a pencil

everything's gonna be fine and we saw the limits and like that's fine he's human he's the best quarterback i've ever seen but the limits are mike remmers and andrew wiley and a patchwork offensive line and guys in his face and i don't think i don't think there needs to be some sort of reckoning with how we view patrick mahomes um because i think he played a damn good game you know i heard chris sims talk about it this morning he was like there's guys who would just bailed out in that situation and just been like all right you know what i'm gonna I'm going to take easy passes and just try to get my completion percentage up. Check down, check down. Yeah. Check down, make, make it a little better. Make it, you know, make the stats a little better. He was trying to win. He was like, you

know, vertical or horizontal against the field and, and chucking the ball down the field. Like that was, it was kind of an amazing performance when you consider the context of the whole thing. Yeah. And then you think like if there's four or five plays, one or two penalties, it seems like everything, it just wasn't the chief's day and it happens in football. And then the injury luck piece of it, which is why it's so hard to repeat. We haven't had a repeat since the, uh, Oh four pats when they beat the Eagles. And you know, the goal, I always used to say this with the pats, the goal is to get into that inner circle of six teams that could win for a given year. If you can get into that inner circle year after year, then there's some shit that might go down, right? You might have a tip.

You might be like that Denver Baltimore game when the guy basically screws up on the long pass, Flacco gets it. All of a sudden Baltimore is winning the Superbowl. You might have your left tackle and your right tackle go down. And all of a sudden you pass the injury point of no return. The Chiefs have now been here three years in a row. What's a realistic number for them to crack that inner circle for you? Kelsey's 31. Tyreek, I think they need to pay at some point. Mahomes, they've already paid.

They paid him a couple years ago. Yeah. So what's realistic? So they have 10 years of Mahomes, they've already paid. They paid him a couple years ago. Yeah. So what's realistic? So they have 10 years of Mahomes. He signed through to 2031. What are you going to be doing in 2031, Bill? I hope I'm just on a beach somewhere. That would be my goal.

Just sipping a daiquiri, just thinking back on my career. So I talked to Brett Veach. I like that. I talked to Brett Veach, the Chiefs GM, about this last week. And I said, how do you view this? And he said, well, we have the best quarterback in football and a Hall of Fame coach. And what we know is that that's the best starting point of anybody, right? But that's not enough.

And so the job for him now is he's got to fix the offensive line. We don't know if Mitchell Schwartz, what his situation is. We don't know. Lawrence DuVernay-Tardif is opting probably back in. He's a doctor who was fighting COVID this year. So presumably he's back next year. Eric Fisher, who knows that injury. So he's got to figure out this offensive line.

Because again, we saw the limits of what Mahomes can give you. Don't you think Fisher's a cross off though? Torn Achilles for an offensive line. It feels like he's not back next year. Don't you think Fisher's a cross off though? Torn Achilles for an offensive lineman? It feels like he's not back next year. I'm saying, do they go out and they try to draft his replacement? Whatever it is.

It's a long-term situation now. And I think part of it with Mahomes, that deal is pretty friendly. I think even when the quote-unquote big money kicks in, it's still behind Kirk Cousins by a large degree. It's still behind Carson Wentz. The price tag is huge, but the year-to to year cap hits don't get messy for a while. And even when they do get messy, it wait until you see like Kyler Murray's extension in three years, like the quarterback value. I always talk about how it's like

Manhattan real estate, right? Like it's always climbing there. There's the time to get in is right now. So if you can get a quarterback extension done, you do it. So to answer your question about the window, they have a little bit of work to do, but the pieces are there. So I think they're going to be there the whole time. If they have Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes and a little bit of help, they're going to be there.

I just don't see a path where that doesn't get them into the Final Four pretty much every year, which is how I think Belichick and Brady. Worst case scenario, it's the Patriots from 2008 to 2014, where every year they're 12-4, 13-3, and they're just in the mix. But I do think there were some missed opportunities for them. And that Clyde Edwards-Hilaire pick, which I loved,

and you think you look at... I was more interested the last two days thinking about how the Bucs built this team and some of the moves they made or didn't have to make. Right. And one of them is because the Patriots did this too with Sony Michelle. Does it make sense to draft a running back in the first or second round when every year there's a Leonard Fournette just popping up or, you know, a couple of years ago, uh, the Le'Veon Bell or whoever.

There's always somebody you can get, right? And then you look at a team like Miami who lost a million running backs and the next one comes up and they're all kind of relatively the same. What if they had spent that pick on a tackle or on some guard or some offensive line? Or Antoine Winfield. Or Antoine Winfield, yeah. D-back or offensive line.

I think sometimes these teams get cute. I know the Patriots did. I wonder if the Chiefs got a little cute there. Yeah, I mean, I think you can definitely criticize that pick. And I think we saw some of that. But I also think that the Bucs just played a hell of a game. And they were a bit of a bust-up. We had Sean Payton on Sonuza last week,

and he was like, you guys need to be really careful about picking against a team that's won three straight games on the road. Like, yeah, we've when we see this, there's normally a reason for that. And I was so impressed with with just the bucks and their depth and their team building because, you know, one one move I just killed was Vita Veya in the 2018 first round. I hated that pick because he was a run stuffer. And Derwin James was on the board. And I'm sitting there, you know me and my shtick, and I'm saying, well, that's not where the game is going. What are you going to do with Vita Bay?

It turns out Vita Bay is just awesome. And then listening to some of the smart people the last couple of days, they just stack talent here. I mean, I think a lot of times with the Bucs roster in particular, you can reverse engineer and say, okay, you look at the Super Bowl champions and you say, okay, the Broncos in 2015, Vaughn Miller on a rookie deal.

You know, X, Y, Z were cheap. The Ravens, you know, in 20, the year they won with Flacco, a bunch of cheap guys everywhere. We're going to look back, especially at the end of this offseason and say, okay, well, they had Chris Godwin, Shaq Barrett on a franchise tag and Levante Dave in his last year. All these guys are going to get more expensive. The roster was peaking. And I don't, with the Chiefs in particular. Well, you would love that Devin White as a fifth pick in the draft on that contract.

And Vita Vey, yeah. Yes, yeah. Tons of cheap guys everywhere. And the rookies, Antoine Winfield and all those guys. But what I'm saying is, I don't think we're going to look back on this Chiefs roster and be like, oh, this roster was peaking. Like, I just think the Chiefs ran into the wrong roster at the wrong time.

They were built for speed. Todd Bowles was an absolute badass on Sunday. I just think the only thing that could have happened was Mahomes played out of his mind, and that possibility was removed by the offensive line. And that was also the case for basically everybody taking the

Chiefs, where they were acknowledging all these different reasons not to take them. Still, Mahomes, it'll be fine. I just think in football it's really hard, because we've seen that with Rodgers a few times over the years. It's really hard to just say, well, no, they have this guy. It will be fine. It's a team

sport. You need a lot of guys. We don't talk about offensive line play until we need to, and we really needed to. I feel bad because I felt like I should have seen this coming and right like that we should have we as the media should have been warning people like this is a really big deal the problem is we just don't know with the homes when the dam will burst because we've seen him get out of so many different situations he's football is mcgyver nothing yeah seems to matter he's just going to get out of it um i was disappointed quite frankly in the lack of adjustments from Andy Reid. I mean, I saw a stat that 92%

of his plays were in five-man protection, and I understand why they do that, because they like getting guys out into routes and they want Travis Kelsey out there, and they want their backswing out of the backfield, whatever it is, but when your quarterback is just getting mauled, and it looks like, do you ever used to play the old Maddens where you could piss off your friend

by just jumping off sides, just for a play? Just for a play. We liked that every single game, like off sides was turned off or looked like in some cases it was like a jailbird screen and jailbreak screen. And they were intentionally letting me through. But it was just bad offensive line play. And so when when you had those situations, I mean, there was just nothing, nothing to do. And so, yeah, I think that we we probably should have seen all of this coming, including, I, I, I think that we, we probably should have seen all of this coming, um, including by the way, Bowles's adjustment, which I think is one of the best adjustments we've had in the past couple of years in a big game, which is where he blitz,

he puts his 40% of the time over his entire career. And then after week 12, when these two teams played, he was like, nah, I'm not doing it. And he blitzed 9%. And it reminds me a little bit, I was thinking about this with, with adjustments. It reminds me of Wilder Fury 2 where Deontay Wilder in the first matchup was just really getting the timing down on Tyson Fury getting the timing down understanding when to throw that second hit and in the second one Fury was like Deontay Wilder has me figured out and if I do the same timing in the same rhythm I'm gonna get my head knocked off and came out with a totally different strategy and Todd Bowles did that he He came out in week 12 and Tyreek Hill kicked their ass and he changed everything up. He went two deep safeties. He schemed up the pressure up front. He

knew he knew how to stay with those vertical routes with Tyreek Hill using those extra bodies that weren't blitzing. I thought it was awesome. The Bucks are amazing. I tried to warn people on the red hot million dollar picks on the red hot million dollar picks, on the smoking hot million dollar picks, on the lifestyle altering million dollar picks, that this Chiefs offensive line thing. I went through it. Like Remmers, the left tackle, was on eight teams.

He was the guy that let Von Miller. He was the guy that Von Miller was a superstar. People are just glossing over it. Mike Remmers turned him into a superduper star in the Super Bowl. It was the fifth year anniversary of that. If Mike Ramirez is invited to another Super Bowl, he should decline. I was thinking about the team building that the Bucks did, though, and then Brady's decision to pick that roster. And, you know, compared to the Patriots roster that he left,

and there's this big existential crisis going on in New England. My dad who was visiting was telling me yesterday that my uncle Bob and my uncle Don are in a big fight. And I, it actually seems like they're actually mad at each other about whose fault it was that Brady left. And I think uncle Don blames Belichick and uncle Bob blames Brady. And this is what, this is this, the Pats fans are all looking at this going,

well, wait a second. We, you know, we could have still won this with this guy. What happened? And the reality is you couldn't have because you didn't have a roster that was 30% as good as this Bucks roster. I wonder, what's your opinion on this? Brady's trying to figure out what team to go to.

How much intel does he have on how good the entire roster is? Because when he did it, we all looked at it like, Oh, he's going there because of Godwin and Mike Evans, but you look, watch the Superbowl and Godwin and Mike Evans are barely involved. It was the defense. It was the tight ends. It was four net. Uh, it was, it was Jones. How much do you think he looked at this as, Oh, I'll just go there because I'll have weapons. They'll let me do what they want.

Or do you think he actually studied their roster because they had so many blue chippers? Sure. So, and Tristan works, if someone who wasn't on the roster, when Brady went, who ended up being one of the best players in the field on Sunday night,

it's a great question. So I think that he went for the weapons. I don't know if he saw the entire vision. And I think that he probably understood how fast this defense could be and how nasty the front could be. I think that generally, you look at someone like Mike Evans,

who I think had 15 deep receptions this year from Brady alone. And Edelman over the last two years for Brady in New England had 11 deep receptions. That was number one. James White in 2019, I believe, was the highest graded receiver

for Tom Brady. Like that was not sustainable. Was it Nikhil Harry? That was not sustainable. So you throw him into this Tampa Bay offense where guys can get open down the field. Bruce Arians' offense was supposed to make mistakes

really early on. We talked about that with Carson Palmer on the Ring NFL show on Friday, but I think that there's just, with him, every GM right now in the league believes you have to be all in every year. It was a completely revolutionary concept, Bill, like five

years ago, when Les Snead was like, we're going to be like the Golden State Warriors adding Durant. He literally said that. And then every GM was like, wait, with the way the cap works and the way trades work and the way players want to move around now, we can just be all in every year. It's something I talked to a bunch of GMs

about. The Patriots were not all in this year. What was Brady going to do there? Belichick went on Charlie Weiss' radio show and said they were capped out and all that stuff and I understand that and they did that they had one of the best runs of all time and and Belichick is probably the best team builder of his era but right now the game is trending towards GMs who can stack the deck for their teams and Jason like did that in 2020 I

don't know what's going to happen next five years and and whether Belichick adjusts a little bit what I'm saying is is that the the Patriots were able to benefit from the fact they were window proof and they kept it open like I remember someone saying this about Arsene Wenger when it was Billy Bean actually said this but Arsene Wenger the famous soccer manager he manages like a a guy who's going to run the team for 100 years okay yeah Belichick viewed it the same way. OK, and I don't think a lot of GMs right now look at the 100 year window anymore.

They look at the two year window. And right now, a lot of the teams that are winning are looking at the two year window. Well, so the Bucs, because, you know, I have some Brady people in my life. I get some intel about Brady's

thinking from time to time. I think Brady's thought was that they were going to be good this year and they had a chance, but next year was going to be the year. That once he was there for a full year, the chance to throw with everybody, get the system in, figure out all this stuff, that they're going to be awesome next year. And you see some of the behind-the-scenes video. There was that one that defensive back took that Instagram video

in the locker room of everybody celebrating and Brady just like calmly packing stuff, getting his jersey ready. And he walked over. He's like, look at this guy. This is my first Super Bowl ever. This guy's won seven. He's already preparing for tomorrow's workout. And I think Brady really feels like they can win two in a row here and that they're going to be better than they were this year. And it does seem conceivable.

Now, the catch on this is what we saw with the chiefs. I think it's really hard to win two in a row for a bunch of reasons, not just injury luck, the incentive thing. And this was one of my cases for why I picked Tampa. It was the biggest game of just about everybody's life on the Tampa sideline. And for the chiefs, they had just played the biggest game of their life the year before. So the incentive piece, I don't know, is there. But from a roster standpoint, it seems like just about everybody comes back, right? For Tampa, they have some big free agents. They have Levante David and Shaq Barrett is a free agent.

Chris Godwin's a free agent. But they can franchise tag Godwin or David, right? Mm-hmm. And Barrett, I think, will command a lot more money. I mean, the good thing for Barrett, I would say. So first off, in general, the fact that the cap is not rising next year to the degree it has the last couple of years is probably big for free agents. And a player might say, hey, instead of testing for agency, I'll take a one-year deal here or whatever and see where we're at. But yeah, they can sort some of this stuff out.

I think that this is going to be a historic year for kind of middle class players becoming available because of the salary cap crunch. When you look at teams that are 40, 50, 60 million dollars over the cap and are just going to shed salary. And so there's going to be a lot of guys who we don't expect to be available, available. And I think that's going to be a huge team building thing. I will say I don't want to steer this towards the Patriots bill, but $60 million in cap space for the paths. Belichick loves those mid-tier veterans. There's going to be a lot of them available because of the cap crunch. I'm just saying there's a path. There's a path. Right. I had a couple more questions based on this, but let's take a break.

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See Pennzoil.ca slash warranty for full details. Coming back, talking about the team building and the cap stuff. One thing with the Patriots, where you mentioned earlier that they basically had to throw away this year from all these decisions they made for a couple years, plus a couple guys opted out. It just was the year from hell.

And now it's coming back with, you mentioned 60 million plus in cap space, the caps flat. There's going to be a lot of middle tier dudes, things like that. On Sunday's podcast with Sal, I was saying how this is Belichick's dream was to be in the, in the guy in the fantasy auction who has $93 left when everybody else has $28 left and he's just going $1 over on a $7 receiver and $1 over on the defense. And, and he's just, it almost feels like he threw it last year so he could be in this position.

But how many teams are actually in that position with them? Cause there's, there's like three, right. That are like over 55. The jets have a ton of cap space. I mean, the teams that just never spend will have a lot of cap space. It's the Jaguars, Colts, and Jets are number one through three. Then the Pats, then the football team, the Bengals,

and then the Bucs, and then the Dolphins. So the Colts are the most interesting one because they need to get a quarterback, but they have a lot of talent. Like if you were going to argue, yes, this year's Tom Brady goes to a team and makes them better and vaults them up. And all of a sudden they're a Superbowl team. It would be the Colts or the Rams would be in the finals for that conversation because the Rams, I think were handcuffed by their quarterback. They addressed it with Stafford, whether he's good enough to flip it. We'll see. But the Colts, I think, were handcuffed by their quarterback. They addressed it with Stafford. Whether he's good enough to flip it, we'll see.

But the Colts, I think, are the most interesting. We need a QB team. Even more interesting than the Pats. I would say that it depends on how they view Carson Wentz. Because I don't think Carson Wentz is the missing piece for the Colts here. And I worry because he's worked with Frank Reich that there's going to be an impulse to do that. I just, I don't know, man.

Giving up, especially if it goes for a first-round pick. I would not do that. So I think the Colts have a definite pathway. I think there's going to be a lot of quarterbacks available. Like I think it was Schefter who said there might be 18 quarterback switches over the next couple of months. And then you think about how different there is a report that maybe Derek Carr is available. And then that would open up the Raiders to, to try to get a big fish like Deshaun Watson. So I think that there's just a lot there. And then do the Pats or the Colts get a kind of second tier quarterback within that? So I just think that the moving pieces are kind of wild. And what happens if, you know, how does the league view Derek Hart?

Russell Wilson, according to Jason Lock and four, might not be happy in Seattle. How would that change it if he wants to move on? Deshaun Watson is in the weirdest situation. I can remember where the character coach is taking control of the franchise. I, does, does,

does he get out this summer? And I hope he does, but I just think that there's, I've never seen an off season where there's so many questions about this. And, but I do agree that the, the Colts are the most interesting and then the Patriots, they've got so much work to do,

but they can use that cap space wisely. The past fans are not getting their hopes up because we know how this goes with Belichick where it's like, Oh, we're going to make a run. He's been waiting for this. And then it just keeps trading backwards. He doesn't splurge on anybody.

He gets a bunch of small dudes. He extends contract. And all of a sudden our 60 million is gone. I agree with that. I would also say, you know, when you talk about the 2020 season with Belichick, I don't know if you saw the quote from Matt Light in the middle of the season where he was basically like, Belichick thinks this year is a joke and he's not

really preparing for it in any meaningful way. Like, obviously he tried to win every single week and he's doing Belichick stuff and early on, the first two weeks with Cam Newton, you and I were smitten but I also think that the biggest advantage the Patriots

have in most phases of the game outside the quarterback position when Tom Brady was there is Bill Belichick and that means training camp that means Wednesday practices that means scouting on Monday night and I talked to Rodney Harrison about this before he was just like there were plays we practice on July 31st. We'd be like, why the hell are we doing this? And then, you know, divisional weekend, it comes up and all

of a sudden he's just got a completely different, um, you know, he's got to remember spectrum of why they were, why they went through the things they went through and why they practice this situation football thing. And you didn't get any of that this year and so i think that there weren't a lot of scenarios in which the patients were ever going to be successful this year so i do kind of think i wonder if going off of matt light's comments if belichick will be a little bit more refreshed in 2021 if things return to normal it'd be fun if he took the brady thing personally. I'll show you who is the most important guy. I'm not even sure. What does that mean exactly? I don't know.

I don't know. I don't think he takes anything personally. I think he's dead inside. He just tries to win football games. That's it. I don't think he cares about narratives. Someone asked me that this morning. How do you think Belichick watched the game on Saturday? How do you think he viewed it? Was he angry? Was he upset? Was he rooting for Tom Brady? No, I, I guarantee he was at least rooting for Gronk.

How can you not love Gronk? Gronk was amazing for us. How could Belichick not root for Gronk in a Superbowl? I think he would have to, I'm sure he was watching it for trends, filing away little things, things to learn, studying how the Bucs, you know, went against the Chiefs and stuff like that. But I look at that Bucs roster now, and we kind of saw it. We just didn't know if it was going to gel in time. But I felt this way after round two, that the dudes they had on the defense,

it seemed like an unusual amount of riches that hadn't gelled together that, but you could see the pieces. And then when you see what they were like, Kelsey's got to be like, wow, I've never been defended like that. He had David and then Devin white roaming around too.

And that no way to go deep. And I don't know, they shut him down. It was almost like watching a basketball game where they're like, oh, we can defend this dude one-on-one on the right side. And he's not going to score. So I was wondering if

Belichick was coming away from it with this new intel on how to defend the Chiefs because that's the team he has to beat. So it's interesting to me because Travis Kelsey is a cover two killer. He destroys teams when there's cover two underneath. Space is the

lifeblood of modern football and when Travis Kelsey has it underneath, he tends to take advantage. The problem on Sunday was that not only were the, the bucks able to take away the deep passes, but Mahomes is running for his life as soon as he got the ball. And so he wasn't able to find Kelsey. There was a pretty good piece on PFF today about that, about just how this should have been.

If you look at the scheme, the Kelsey game. And through the three quarters, I think he had 50 or 60 yards. He ended up having a nice game with 133 yards, but it didn't end up mattering. But there were opportunities there. It was just the pressure was too much. And so I don't know if there's necessarily a blueprint. I mean, it almost reminds me a little bit of Brady after those Super Bowl losses against the Giants where, OK, the blueprint is to get pressure on Brady.

Well, OK, who wasn't trying to get pressure on Brady? Obviously, the two safety thing and having fast linebackers, that's going to help. I just think it's going to be hard for a team to circle this game and say, this is this is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do. And I would also say on the other side of the ball, I thought it was interesting. You mentioned the basketball thing because a couple of the 49ers writers said that last year they had circled the Chiefs defense. I think they led the NFL in defensive holding penalties last year. And they said, if we get these calls, we're going to win. And then the refs put away their flags in the Super Bowl. They came out this year and those

tight calls went against the Chiefs. And so you just look a little bit at just how the game was officiated. A couple of the little margin things. I think that it's going to be tough for me to sit here and say, and I love extrapolating things from small things like one game, but it's going to be tough for a guy like Belichick to say, OK, now I know how to go forward. Well, one thing I think we can extrapolate is Brady laid out this blueprint. Kyle, turn the video machine on. I feel this could be a social break.

I could feel it right now. Tell them to get ready. I think Brady gave the blueprint now to somebody like Aaron Rodgers, where he's like, this is how to do it. Don't stay in the situation where you're not totally happy with where you are, where the, where you're at odds with their draft decisions, where, because you're so good, the team is happy with just going 11 and five, 12 and four, 13 and three, and being in the mix every year, you can actually control your

own destiny. If they're not going to lay out some huge five-year awesome commitment to you and just jump teams and find some roster that's good for you and do what I did. And if I'm Rogers, I'm looking at this going, well, if San Francisco doesn't have a quarterback with all the talent they have a year from now, maybe I just jumped there. If the Packers aren't going to give me a shitload of money. So I do wonder if there's a blueprint now created for that. Are we sure that's not the LeBron blueprint? Yeah, I guess it is the LeBron blueprint. Cause that's what he did. I mean, he really did that in 2014 and everybody's like, he's coming home.

I was, I was a lone voice in the wilderness. Like this has nothing to do with him coming home. He's going, cause that's the best basketball situation. Miami was a dead end. And he's going to a team that has Kyrie and the number one pick in the draft and all these other pieces. Like it's a better basketball situation, which I think is why Brady left the Patriots. It was a bad football situation.

It was time for him to leave. I don't know if Rogers is there with Green Bay. They're certainly better than the Patriots were last year. But I do wonder if they're not going to commit to him. Does he look at what Brady did and go, hmm, maybe I could do that. Maybe I'm a hired gun for two years and that's how I get my second Super Bowl. Yeah. There was no Devontae Adams in New England. That makes a pretty big difference. So yes, the answer is yes. This provides a blueprint for guys who are in their 30s who aren't being

maximized. That goes for everybody because we talked about the all-in thing a little bit earlier. You need to have, there's a barrier for entry into the Super Bowl at this point, and it's having an incredible roster and the quarterback being the final piece. I think there's been 40 years of football where there were teams looked at the quarterback and said, you have to play like a superhero for us to win.

And I think that the operating mode here for some of these teams now is let's stack the roster so that the quarterback doesn't have to play like a superhero. Garoppolo. The Garoppolo almost winning a Super Bowl is the best example of that. Yes, Kyle Shanahan, McVay. Very close.

Yeah, I mean, my thing in the last 10 years is no one wins a Super Bowl because they drafted a great quarterback. They win a Super Bowl because they figured out what to do with their great quarterback. And so I think when you look at those things and then the Russell Wilson report on Tuesday morning that he might be getting unhappy, I think it reminds me a little bit of European soccer where it becomes more about, hey, I want to play for this coach. I want to play in this system. I want to play for this team.

And I want a new challenge. You hear that all the time with European soccer players. They say, you know, they're 28 and they say, I want a new adventure, a new challenge or whatever. And I think that we're going to move away from, okay, I'm going to be a one franchise guy. I mean, like Deshaun Watson rightly is looking around and seeing Jack Easterby running his organization

and saying, what the hell is this? Have you seen these videos of Jack Easterby running his organization and saying, what the hell is this? Have you seen these videos of Jack Easterby? How did this guy become, get his, his hostile takeover of his franchise? Like, I don't really get it. But you don't think,

you don't think the team chaplain should run an NFL franchise? Is that your expert opinion? But I just, I think that some of these quarterbacks are correctly saying we have a lot of leverage, even though we have these long contracts. We have a lot of leverage. And if you're not helping me, I'm out. Like, there's no reason to you only play 14, 15 years of high level football. There is no reason to sit around and say, yeah, I'll work with Jack Easterby or I'll work with his offensive coordinator sucks or I'll work with this offensive line that sucks. No, leave. Who cares? But the difference with NBA and NFL is in the NFL, when you have the big contract,

the chance to get it, you kind of have to grab it because of the injury risks. Yes. And the NBA, I mean, Durant got a max contract after he tore his Achilles. Like, you know, the max contracts are going to be there if you're a top 10 guy. So I look at the Watson thing where he grabbed that contract, kind of knowing that it wasn't a great situation, but he kind of had to grab it. And then the other difference is in the NFL, it's so hard to get out of the, to, to deal the dude if he wants to get dealt because of the, like what,

like what's going on with Philly right now with Wentz, what happened with the Rams with golf, where they have to basically give somebody a number one just to take the contract away. So I, I wonder like, I don't know why you must have an opinion on this. Why the NFL makes it so difficult to trade players? Why haven't they come up with like one or two wrinkles that would allow for more movement? And if they did that, would that be a good thing for the NFL? Or is it actually good that we have a protection from too much movement? So there's NFL franchises are incredibly conservative entities as far as just risk taking. Right. And they don't like spending extra money. They don't like huge cash payrolls.

I'm talking about the past 50 years. OK. And in the last five years that started to change. And I would say that there weren't a lot of ways to, there weren't a lot of good ways to facilitate player movement because teams didn't care about player movement. Okay. And these huge dead cap charges and all that stuff. If you look now, look at the Rams and how many dead cap charges they take that are just massive golf, Brandon Cooks, they don't care. They don't care. Saints don't care either, right? The Saints don't care. The Saints run have the same, I think, have the same general philosophy that led to the 2008 financial crisis. Like just whatever, we're just take it. You can take this

contract, whatever. Steelers are the other one that are pretty aggressive like they're like 40 50 million over now yeah well the Steelers also took a huge dead cap hit with Antonio Brown they were they were like fine I mean this is all like if you were to tell me there were four franchises that got really into GameStop two weeks ago I'd be like that

that's fine we're good I understand that no I mean I think that the teams are just getting more aggressive now and are saying, I think there's so many teams now they're looking at the rules and being like, wait, why, why is it bad?

If we can keep it under the cap to take a dead cap charge, why do we need in the Rams case? Why do we need first round picks? Whatever. I think norms are being challenged and I don't necessarily think that the NFL is used to that. And so why I think that there just hasn't been a lot of aggressive GMs. When first round picks started to get traded

a lot three years ago, like the cool Mac trade, the Jamal Adams trade, the Jalen Ramsey trade to first round picks. I mean, that was not the price of a superstar because superstars didn't get traded. And you had to go back to the Jay Cutler trade for a trade of that magnitude. And so I don't think that there were even valuations put on these guys because no one considered trading them. And I think there were a couple of moves that, that really, uh,

push the envelope. I think the Brock Osweiler trade from, uh, from Houston to Cleveland was one of them where they took on Brock Osweiler's contract and a second round pick. And I think you started to see teams get more creative. You think about the, the saints into Debbie and Clowney last year, if you followed that, where they were going to sign Clowney by having another team sign him and then do a sign and trade for a pick. And so the saints

were capped out and they, they, they were going to figure out how to get Clowney. And then they found out the NFL is probably not going to allow them to do that. But you're just going to see more and more teams do this because they're staring at the cap. They're staring at dead cap charges. They're staring at contracts they know can be finessed under the cap and they're going to figure it out. So I think as the players get more comfortable moving and franchise quarterbacks get more comfortable moving, kind of what you said with the Brady model, we're going to see more teams who are willing to figure it out. So on the one hand, congrats to the Rams. Cause I do think they've stumbled onto something with this. What do we care about first round picks? If we're one of the

eight best teams every year. And there's huge argument between the 22nd pick and the 60th pick in your average NFL draft, like DK Metcalf being a great example. Once you get past like the top 12, it's a fucking crapshoot. So they see that. On the other hand, it's hard for me to give too much credit to a team that traded like a first round pick for Brandon Cooks and, and, you know, gave Goff the money they gave him, which was inexplicable as it was happening. So I, I don't feel like they're like the savviest team of all time, but I do think they're looking

at this specific thing the right way where it's like, all right, well, we'll just get good players and just take over the 28th player. Yeah. Yeah. And also just take a bunch of swings. I mean, I don't, I don't think anyone is batting a thousand here. I mean, think about how many Belichick, I mean, Belichick got the first round pick back for him, but think about Belichick trading. But that's the thing. If he had done this with his first round picks from

2017 on, we've been in a much better position. Yeah. I'm in total agreement with you. I think that the Rams have figured out something. I don't know if it's going to work. I think this, just the idea of having Stafford is important because I think that they didn't have a Super Bowl window until a week ago. And now I think they do. And I just think that there was a limit on golf. And I don't I think that that ceiling goes so much higher now with Stafford. And I think I think McVay is a really good coach. I really like that roster. I think that they're probably going to be in the final four this year. Yeah, I agree with that. I actually think they could have made it this year. I think if they didn't have the QB

injuries, if Goff was healthy, it was doable. I still think the right team made it, but I think it was doable. I think they could have hung with the Bucs with a healthy quarterback. I don't know if they would have won. Their philosophy is interesting, and I will say

the one defense of the Go golf contract, I will say. Plus Donald got hurt. He became eligible for an extension when they were at the Super Bowl. The month they were in the Super Bowl. I remember talking to their front office guys about it. And it's like, I don't know. Everyone keeps saying that a team needs to start trading in their first round quarterback and never signing them to an extension. And I just think that it's going to take a really bold franchise

to make the first move on that one. It just hasn't happened. But yeah, to your point, Aaron Donald getting hurt, that was him being at whatever it was, 60% capacity. We saw the dominance of Aaron Donald. I feel like he was 40%. Whatever he was, he wasn't normal.

And we saw what happens to the Rams when that happens. Yeah. He's so good. I mean, I saw a study that basically I think was Stephen White who said this Aaron Donald is so good. He's normalized comparing his stats to outside pass rushers, right?

That's not supposed to happen. He does a different job than them. And that's all we do. Aaron Donald. I know that this is, we do podcasts all summer and stuff. We talk about how Aaron Donald's best player in football. I need to say this. Aaron Donald, I know this is, we do podcasts all summer and stuff. We talk about how Aaron Donald's best player in football. I need to say this. Aaron Donald is the best player in football. Like that's it. Right. Um, I'll be interested. The last piece of this

will be, and it's going to happen in the NBA or the NFL and everybody's like, well, the one thing that will always happen is, uh is an awesome guy in a rookie contract is always going to resign with his own team. It's they have the deck is stacked for the team to be able to jump in early, keep the guy and he's got to take the money. It'll be interesting to see in the NBA or the NFL who's the first guy who's like, eh, I'm going to I'm actually going to play this out. You know, and could that be Justin Herbert on the Chargers? Could he just be like, yeah, fuck it. This franchise sucks. We're the black sheep team in LA.

Nobody gives a shit. And the New York Giants would give me 200 million if I jumped. Maybe I should do that. Maybe I'll make the money back. I think that the biggest, the sort of Rosetta Stone for quarterback movement here is Kirk Cousins, who reached for agency and understood that short contracts, and we're talking to Kirk and his agent about this, short contracts are your friend and the open market is your friend.

And so I think before we get into, I'm not going to resign with you, maybe you get into, I'm actually going to take a two-year deal for $45 million each year, and you can't tag me afterwards. Because the franchise tag is the limiting factor in football. That's the reason there's anything. It would be NBA-style, baseball-style movement, whatever, even with a cap, if there was no franchise tag. You think about Aaron Rodgers, who signed that extension a couple years ago. They could have tagged him three times. So he was basically the numbers would have escalated every year,

but he was basically... But you could hold out. The holdout would be the way to get it back. Sure. Well, I mean, the holdout as far as forcing a trade? Yeah. I guess. Yeah, I guess. If the charge is like, cool, Herbert, we'll give you a top five contract. You're staying. And he's like, no, I'm really

leaving. You're going to have to get rid of me. Right. But I think you could take the two-year money, the money put in front of you, and then say, don't tag me, and then hit the open market. I think it's going to be more creative ways of getting close to the open market

because that's when it actually, the insane money comes in. And then if Herbert really wanted to leave, he could. The problem is, again, it wants Herbert, if they extend the fifth-year option with the Chargers, and they certainly will, and then you get into three years of franchise tag. The franchise tag is the biggest part of any off-season NFL transaction. And that will remain true until an NFL player figures out how to get around it.

Or the NFLPA negotiates it out of the CBA, which isn't happening anytime soon. until an NFL player figures out how to get around it. Or I, I mean, or, or the NFL PA negotiates it out of the CBA, which isn't happening anytime soon. All right. We're going to do something unconventional. I'm going to bring in our friend, Logan Murdoch to talk about the warriors, just me and him. And then we're,

you and I are going to talk boxing and MMA really quickly to end the podcast. Cause I feel like you, me and 10 other people are the only people that care, but we're going to do that. So we're going to take a break. Logan Murdoch will be back, and then Clark is going to come back at the tail end. up nice and late. And you know what? The sun waited. Then you went and got what you loved from Starbucks, the new pecan crunch oat latte and new baked apple croissant, and enjoyed that

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Shop now at pcexpress.ca. All right, Logan Murdoch is here. He's somehow been on the rewatchables, but not on this podcast, but we're changing that right now. He joined The Rer last summer. He's got an awesome podcast with Raja Bell that you can hear on the ringer NBA show twice a week called the real ones.

They've had some, some good guys. Who's been your best, I don't want to say best guests, but who, what guests gave you the most meat so far? The most, uh,

Sean Marion was really great. Sean Marion gave us, it felt like a therapy session for him. It was one of those, those, those interviews where you have questions to ask, Sean Marion was really great. Sean Marion gave us, it felt like a therapy session for him. It was one of those interviews where you have questions to ask, but they just answer all the questions and all of their answers. And you're just like, oh, okay, well, then I'm just going to let this person talk. And he was great.

I think the one where I was like, holy shit, this is happening, was the Tim Duncan podcast last month where I just, I didn't even believe it was going to happen until he came on the zoom and i was like oh it's tim hey there's tim duncan there's the seventh best player of all time good to see you right right yeah it was fun it was fun he that was great um it's been great man we've had a lot of great guests and um it's only going to grow man i love i love what we're doing over on the ruins with me and Rasha. For people who don't know, when we found Logan,

he was basically covering the Warriors. You were doing some NBA stuff too, but you were in the Bay, and you were there for that entire ride, especially the Durant years, and then everything kind of falling apart last year. Now they're in this weird no man's land. The reason I want to talk about them,

because I realized something watching the Curry-Donchish game on Saturday night, which I really enjoyed. My dad was here. It was on early on the West Coast. We kind of ate dinner. We put it on. It was just like, it was so much fun. And I realized like, if I had to do it over again, if I could have one NBA do over non

Boston related for the last 10 years of the NBA, it would be for Durant not to go to the Warriors because we lost out on Steph Curry as the John Wick in it. You know, the Keanu and the John Wick movie of just like, I don't really care if Steph Curry wins the title or not. I just miss watching him as the best guy in a team. And because he's such an awesome teammate. And I just, obviously everybody on this pod has heard me rave about Steph over the years. He rightly took a step a little bit sideways, let Durant kind of shared the steering wheel Durant, especially in the playoffs. A lot of their offense ran through Durant.

I just miss this. I love seeing Steph Curry on a 45-37 team doing his thing. What is your thoughts on that? I feel a little cheated that it's happening right now because it feels like Kobe's 05-06 year, right, where he's literally their only offense on the team. You know they're not going to win a title, but he's probably at the peak right now of his powers right now,

and you're seeing he's playing like the MVP here in 15-16 right now, but it doesn't matter because they're barely in the games. It sucks when you have to see a player that good score 57, and they might win, you know? They might win, and you have to see that guy i know you've seen a bill where the guy is walking off the floor and he's just his head is all down and stuff but he had one of the most legendary performances of all time it's hard to watch that it's been hard to watch steph um go through this right now and honestly man it doesn't seem like there's really

a light at the end of the tunnel at right now, at least to get back to that title contention right now. So it's been tough to watch him play right now. It's been great to see the highlights, but it sucks to see like, okay, there's really no stakes. There's nothing there's, he's not going to win a title. He's probably not going to get out of the first round.

If he gets to the, the post season, it's, it's been tough to watch from that regard. The play has been awesome, but the performance of the overall team has been has been not awesome well the stakes are this is his this is his avon barksdale season right he's he's taking back his corners everybody kind of forgot how influential and incredible he was

and kind of gravitated toward the dame leeward trey young um and dame him and dame the stats are pretty close. There's something with Steph that will always be a little bit different. First of all, he was first. He invented a lot of this. The joy, especially when he has a heat check, is just different. It's inclusive. I'm not a Warriors

fan. When he gets hot, there's nothing I want to watch more on a basketball court than steph feeling it when he took the 40 footer and mike breen was like a bang he did like the quick bag i was like yes we're in steph is back no he got he got mike breen to invent another bang like he got it but and that's that's very rare and i think double banged on the double bang yeah exactly exactly but um it was it was it was um it's fun because when you see Steph do it it's different than when it's different from any

other player including Dame with it and I love Dame you know town business all everything you want to say you know Brookfield but when Steph comes it feels like we're all watching it as a family on Twitter we're all we're all coming together when when you hear get the text or you get the mention saying oh Steph's going off it's time to turn on the television and it's time to get on your phone because you, it's just a different vibe when you see that, even from when Dame is doing it. Um, I've never seen anybody capture a moment like that, the way, quite the way that Steph does when it was at Oracle. And also when it was, you know, a little bit at Chase. But it's just a different vibe, man, when Steph goes off.

And the case has been made. We aren't inventing it here. Steve Kerr has said it, that he's the Duncan of his generation as a teammate. And you got to cover him for those couple years. What are some little examples that stick out with you with that? Whereas a great teammate um hmm i think one of the moments is honestly with durant you know when uh just just stepping aside to have somebody um you know who probably needs it to you know be the number one guy you know that's very rare that you see that you know we saw that with duane wade and lebron but to have a guy that is um saying you know you know what I'm gonna step aside and he

really did that man he really um was very accommodating to to Kevin in a way that almost is like yo you still Steph bro like you're still this is still your city like and I was I was I was um I remember I asked uh Marcus Thompson of the Athlet, who's really good and, you know, knows Steph more than anyone. I asked him, like, a question just straight up. Like, who has more love in the Bay in Oakland? Is it Dame or Steph in the Bay? And it's Steph, 100%, because you get to see Steph every night. But he's really a legend out here.

And for him to step aside and be like, yo, Kev, I want you to have this team. Like, this is your, you can take the last shot. And that was a point of, that was like the only like mini controversy early on was who was going to take the last shot. Because they were literally, it was like that scene in White Man Can't Jump when the game was on the line that first year with Durant and Steph. Where they're just passing the ball to each other. They're just like, no, you get it. No, you get it. like no you get it no you get it no you get it and I think that shows kind of the type of teammate that Steph is because superstars don't do that man superstars and superstars ego rightfully

so will not allow them to do that many times is to to take a step back and Steph did that and um he's probably going to be go down as one of the greatest teammates of all time. You know, and that's an example. And that's the one for everyone to see is stepping aside for a guy like Kevin Durant, who you can already say is better than Steph, for him to say, no, man, I want to win a title. We need you to win multiple titles to make this legendary. I will do what i can to help you succeed and flourish that's steph curry as a teammate yeah and you think the 2016 season

which was just iconic and ends up dream on punches lebron on the balls and it's a little like the tyree catch right that moment is like the tyree catch for the patriots where they're gonna go 19 and oh and then this guy catches a ball off his helmet and you could feel the momentum shift. Look, I, the Cavs should have beaten them one of those years. Um,

yeah. If they beat, if, if the Warriors take care of business in 2016 and Durant doesn't sign there, I don't think he joins a champion under any circumstances. The Cavs probably get them in 2017. So it kind of evened out one way or the other.

The difference is Durant doesn't go there. And it's such a fun what if to think like they don't get Durant. What is the next three, four years look like? I think it's great for Clay. You know, it's the two of them. And just who is that fourth guy? Do they re-sign Harrison Barnes that year? Do they let him go because he's too expensive?

Do they re-sign him and then try to trade him? How does that all play out? It's a little more interesting than how it ended up playing out. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. I think that, but it's funny. I don't even, I don't know how to say this, but it's like, I feel like if you ask anybody and pull anybody in that um warriors

organization if they were to do it over again i think they do it the same way and also they it's weird to say this but i think they sacrifice that title every single time like if they know that they're getting kevin and it took like hey man the greatest collapse in history and we get back to back titles and we get peak or not i don't know if it's peak yet we'll see but we get prime kevin durant i think they'll take that and maybe a chance to for him to keep staying on our team i think they'll take that three years of kevin one finals loss the greatest run of all time one of the greatest runs of all time they'll take that well the irony is if durant doesn't get hurt i think they win in 2019 pretty easily.

Don't you think? I mean, even if... I think they win also if Steph hits that three in game six, you know, and they go back to Toronto, it's still interesting. If Klay doesn't get hurt, it's still interesting.

I think that they win. I think that they were starting to figure it out. And also, I would have picked the... I know that they're going back to Toronto, and I know that they were going back there for game seven but if i would pick the i would have picked the warriors 10 times out of 10 to go back in game seven and and win all just based off experience it's just something about that team where they just always pulled it out man and that series

they their two finals wins were in toronto and it was really kind of eerie how they won those games man like the the andre guadalla three right and then they their backs are against the wall in game five kawaii is just doing kawaii stuff you i don't know if you were in toronto that that that game but i didn't go the the the crowd for that um that game five it was one of those closeout crowds where they just smelled it they just smelled the the champion the championship trophy and kawaii is going off and then they just take the hearts out of that arena man like toronto was shook after that game and so for that to happen and if they were to if the raptors were to fumble

the bag in oakland i truly believe the warriors win that title man i do i do and um i don't know what that means i think kevin still leaves but the for that to happen man that would have been a great run and that would have been insane if they won the title after durant got hurt twice and then right with it occurred like really honestly so many ripple effects if clay stays healthy with the way kawaii was starting to wear down as that series went along and the pressure was starting to really wear on that toronto team and also like you mentioned like the resilience of that 2019 warriors team where that's really where you measure some of the greatest great

teams is the road wins and they had had like game three in Cleveland in 17, game three in Cleveland in 18. Same thing where Cleveland's like, they've got the crowd, they're getting the calls. This is like, this is usually the game that usually, game three always usually goes the home team's way. And they were just like, fuck it. And they ripped their hearts out both games.

And then the other one was game four in 2016, which I think was the last great warriors when that was the game with Draymond punches them at the tail end. But that was one of those, it was going to be two, two and the words went to another level. I thought they were better that year. Yeah. I think there was a lot of wins and I know we're talking about finals, but I think there's another like signature win there with the, um, I think it was also in 2019 when they beat the rockets. Yeah. beat the rockets man that was a that was one of the i think steve calls that steve kirk calls that the best win of the era and um that's without kevin they go no no no steve kirk said that was his favorite win of the entire era which i thought was like wow that's

saying a lot you won titles with this team but But I think that, like, I remember being in Houston that night, and it was just pandemonium. I had never seen them that excited. I remember a player telling me, man, like, the Warriors hated the Rockets so much. I remember a player telling me after they won the next year on Christmas Day, I don't give a – this is how much they love the Rockets. I don't give a shit if we go – if we lose every game this year as long as we beat Houston. That's how much they hated Houston.

And for them to win like that – and the coverage around it was kind of whack because they were – I never heard a team up 3-2 get so much vitriol like, oh, it's over. You know, Kevin's gone. It's over. It's over. They were up 3-2, and they had already beaten the Rockets before. They were up in the series.

They go back to Oakland and wrap it up in game seven. But the theater of that game, Steph, you know, being struggling in the first half, and then for him to come back around and just ball out. And when it comes down to it, all they had was Draymond and Steph pick and roll. It was a beautiful sight to see, and it was cash, and they just ended that it comes down to it all they had was draymond and steph pick and roll it was a beautiful sight to see and they just it was cash and they just ended that rockets team man they just ended that iteration of the rockets in the last five minutes that was that's personally

one of my probably my favorite win of the of my time covering the warriors it was also one of my favorite bets of 2019 because the warriors were underdogs in that game and it was like this is which I don't get what I didn't get especially with James Harden's history yeah you bring up something that I think is enjoyable about the current NBA where they can't overtly feud with each other but there are all these little petty bullshit things right like I knew about that where the Warriors and their antipathy for Harden and the style of the Rockets. You forget Chris Paul, too. You forget Chris Paul, too.

Oh, yeah. Remember, they didn't like Chris just dating back to his Clipper days. They just disdained for Chris. So if you put those two, CP and James, on the same team, I think the only people that they really liked on that team was P.J. Tucker. It was like the only one that they were like, oh, yeah. Seems like everybody likes P.J. Tucker. Yeah.

Yeah. But they did not like them. They did not like them they did not like them there was also kind of an underground steph lebron something because steph won those two mvps and i think lebron you know probably rightly feels like i'm the best guy every year what the what why is this guy like the golden boy now? And you could feel it in some of those games. Like LeBron definitely, you know, when he would try to bully ball, when he was frustrated, you know, I remember game one, which is,

I've said before, that was the best game in 2018. That was the best game I've ever seen LeBron play. Oh, you were at that game too, right? I was at that game. And him and Steph got into it at the end. Remember? That was the that was the greatest that was the greatest performance i've ever seen in person ever lebron's dropping

because it was he was taking on everyone every pick and roll he gets pick and roll on kevin ah bucket has a pick and roll on draymond ah bucket he he bounces into kavon looney uh in the final minutes that was a perfect game for him in 2018. And it felt like I felt cheated. I don't know if the Cavs win the series, but I felt cheated that JR did what he did right there because that was an epic LeBron performance. And LeBron should have won that game.

You should be mad at George Hill. He missed the second free throw. Yeah, but you still get the ball back. You still get the ball back, though, man. I get get it you still get the ball back and have a chance and you pass the lebron a call time out bro like but that was the other thing that was great about that was lebron had whatever you know whatever he had going with steph which steph is very aware of and then you have the lebron kd thing and you have KD really honestly believing he's the best forward in the

league. And rightfully so, right? Yeah, when he goes against LeBron, it's like I'll either play him to a draw or I'm slightly better than him. I could score more than him and defensively I can handle him. And LeBron went in that first game like, you're not better than me and put up the 51, but then that

game broke him. And then who knows when he hurt his hand i don't know it's funny it's like it was whenever the warriors played the calves obviously there was there was a bit more angst going in because you know the warriors love going up against lebron but specifically with kevin and lebron like kevin loves bron but there's always a there's always a bit of like, he has this with LeBron, he has this with Giannis too, where he's just like, oh, fuck this. It's my time to show that I'm the best player in the fucking league. That's literally his intensity level before he plays that. And you see that in regular season games. I remember one time, I think it was a 2018 game when they played in Cleveland. There's a play where, there's a fast break play where

Kevin Durant is, uh, is all alone, but he sees LeBron come and try to do one of those, uh, those closeout blocks. And he, you could tell him, you see him look at LeBron and he's like, you could see in his eyes, like, fuck this. I'm gonna dunk the fuck out of this ball. I'm going to dunk it. And he goes, it's a breakaway. And LeBron doesn't even challenge it, but he goes, and that was, that was, that's one of the examples where, you know, it was also the Christmas game in 2017 where he's playing it's one-on-one. And I think it was like, look, this is when, um, Kevin was getting like defensive player of the year talk in 2017, 2018 season. And they faced it when they faced the Cavs this was when like the last year that LeBron was there and there was a defensive stop um I think um that Kevin had on LeBron and he's just

going crazy and I remember he was he was he was juiced after that game he was really excited those matchups like against I wasn't there when he was when when Kevin was playing against Steph but I know that he had those there was a little oomph when he was playing against Steph, but I know that he had those, there was a little oomph when he was playing against LeBron and Giannis as well as one of those other guys. Yeah, it was interesting. KD really respected

the big picture of the league. All the guys coming in was really like a scout, you know, like love certain young guys, stuff like that. But anytime a forward was on his corner,

you know, he handled it, you know, I'm better than that guy. I'm better than this guy and had a real competitiveness to it. That I think is one of the reasons he was so great. The LeBron KD thing, you know, LeBron's had a better career. LeBron is the second best player of all time. I think LeBron, how physical and durable he is.

I don't know if KD is going to, I don't know how he's going to age as he gets into his mid-late 30s. But KD is certainly the best guy who's gone mano a mano against him that I saw. You could say, what, I was going to say Kawhi, but I think we get lost, like LeBron dominated that series

against Kawhi in 2014. He played really well. But Kevin, it's a complicated case, man, because Kevin, the balance of power in the NBA shifted when Kevin Durant joined the Warriors, and in part because he outplayed LeBron in two straight series, man. And then I remember before Kevin got injured in 2019, man, did he look like the best player in the league when he was playing against the Clippers?

It was, everything seemed so easy for him. Everything. I don't know. Like when they were, I remember the two games in LA, I think he dropped 50. Everything seems so easy,

man. It seemed like he was just playing against nobody, bro. Like that was, that was ridiculous. And he has a right to be upset to say like, yo, I outplayed LeBron. What about me? I'm supposed to be the best dude in the league. And I am, I, by at this point, my resume says I'm the best player in the league at this particular point. So I get them on that.

Um, and that's why I think that that's, that's what go, I feel like that's what goes through Kevin's mind when he plays against LeBron. Like, like yo man I'm coming at your neck because I am one of the few guys and I think Curry is one of those two dudes too that can really like gets into LeBron's head but but Kevin is a different case because he can go mano a mano they play the same position that's why that shot in game three of 2017 was just so so gangster man because he just did it he just stepped in and just ah and yeah and that's why uh i think he really gets up for lebron and i love watching them to play against each other because kevin's at the level to where he can just where lebron has to deal with him on a night base nightly basis yeah i did a few podcasts with him that summer 2017 and you could feel it shifting

in his head as the summer went along where he thought we did a pod the night after they won and he was just like you know i'm the best i'm the best player in the world i just i just beat lebron in a playoff series we had pretty even teams the words were slightly better but it wasn't like a crazy difference you know and that's it now people know i just and then it was like, that didn't happen. Yeah. And then I think that led to all the decisions for the next two years. It's like, well, wait a second. So I don't get credit.

I don't get credit for beating this guy. This is still Curry's team. What's going on here? And that, you know. Yeah. I think that, you know, Kevin always, you know, talks about, I think it was bigger than just, you know, I think that, you know, Kevin always, you know, talks about I think it was bigger than just, you know, if you talk to him about it, I think it's bigger than just the, you know, the stuff that's out there with Draymond. You know, he's always said that that's been, you know, over, you know, overblown. That was the nail in the coffin, though. The coffin had been bought and was was in the in the morgue. But that was the nail in the coffin, though. The coffin had been bought and was

in the morgue, but that was the nail, I think. There was one other instance that was a nail in the coffin, according to him, and I think that there was... It was... He just... I think around that February was when things got... The February 2019

was when things got dicey, but he always remained steadfast. like he was planning on staying. He always says that he thought he was going to stay at least another year. You know, I think that at least. And so when he pushes back on that notion, I don't know if I believe him. But I know that when people were pretty much. People pretty much checked out that he was going to leave by the first round of the – probably earlier, but coaches and players were openly talking about him going to New York the first round against the Clippers in 2019. They were like, okay, I guess he's – we don't know which team he's going to in New York, but we know he's probably going to dip. It was an open secret that he was going to leave among Warriors staffers.

They were like, okay, he's gone. He's going to leave among warriors staffers they were like okay he's gone he's gonna leave um i think they felt that way in december january though yeah but at least for me because at least to me they were just like well you felt like it was done and it was just done that it was done and i i think i was just a bit uh i think i was a bit naive to that but he they were openly saying like no it's over like this is why we have to do this now and you know when you look back when you're in the when you're in it um you know the tea leaves are always there like steve kerr was just saying you know we need to enjoy this moment in the in the in the uh media in the first media day he was like we need to enjoy this moment

you know it's probably never gonna be like this again and at the time we're like what are you talking about bro like what do you mean like Steph's gonna Steph's under contract Clay's probably gonna resign like what are you talking about they're they're probably going to still gonna be a dynasty what do you mean but then gradually it was like oh and I remember the first part I've before that it's ironic but before the 2018-19 season i had never covering kevin i had never seen him that happy before and that media day 2018 i had never seen him that excited to play um and then it just gradually just got like okay you know all the stuff started happening and then it was a foregone conclusion that he was gone, you know, by the end. Were you covering that Clippers game when him and Draymond, when it fell apart on the court?

I was not in L.A. when that happened. I was third on the beat with the Mercury News at that point. I remember watching that at the house and was just like, because I wasn't traveling at that point, but I remember the next game, how eerie it was. I forget the team that they played but kevin went off um kevin went off that game but it was just eerie that was the first time it just what it didn't seem fun in that locker room you know it didn't seem it seemed like that was the first time

when it seemed like there was factions in the locker room and it was weird because i don't know if you were have you've been in the warriors locker room or were in the warriors locker room about it like kevin kevin's locker right there was like two lockers stalls away from draymond's so they had to deal with that it was it was always there like it wasn't like he was on the other side like no only person that separated them was i think quinn cook and andre iguodala was the only two people that separated him but it was eerie it wasn't it wasn't as like lively after that time it was you know it wasn't it just wasn't and i don't think that ever i don't think it ever got back to the form that you know my first year being on that beat i still have a video on my phone from that game because i was there and I watched, I saw everything. And I saw when, you know, it was last play regulation.

KD was calling for it. Draymond had the ball and instead of passing it ahead, Draymond kept it. And KD was like slapping his hands. And then I think Draymond lost it. Time ran out. And then KD yelled at him. And Draymond took it really personally. And they walked back to the

bench so I just kind of watched them go back and I taped the tail end of it on my phone because I was like this is crazy they're screaming at each other being separated yeah and then you could see it like Boogie comes in at one point and he's pushing I think KD out on the court or he's holding Draymond somebody's pushing he's telling he's telling there's a camera there he's telling uh Draymond to lock in this is after he like curses everybody out and then Boogie pulls him to the side and he's like yo lock in and Draymond's like fuck him fuck him like you know what I mean you can see it on camera yeah and um but that was one of those things it wasn't it was one of those things where it was a lot of built-up stuff. And you notice, like, when you blow up on somebody,

it has nothing to do with that play, right? Like, you can get over, like, yo, pass me the ball. All right, bro, I got you. That's usually how it goes after that. But there was so much built-up tension over the months before that. Is he going to stay? Is he going to go? Is he going to stay?

Is he going to go? Are you with us or not? And honestly, I feel like, wanted Dre wanted that confrontation because he always wants confrontation. That's what gets him going. That's why he yells at the benches. That's why he yells all that stuff. I think if and Kevin's just a dude that's like, all right, whatever. Like, but I think Draymond wanted Kevin to be like, say something. Like, say something. Fight me.

Like, please fight me. And Kevin is like, why? For what? Why would I? Like, for what? I'm not going to do it. But I think Draymond equates, like, back-to-back combat, like, all of that as like you're you yo you're with us and i feel like if if if kevin would have responded the way draymond wanted him to respond i think the rest of the year would have been a lot different i am uh when when guys fight on a basketball court they argue

whatever i to me it's like normal and maybe it's because i used to play basketball way back when like yeah you're gonna yell at each other that's just the way it goes to me that's a sign of a healthy relationship sometimes it felt different in the room that night it definitely was not healthy please believe that wasn't

the first time Draymond had yelled at Kevin that was not the first time but this one felt there was a level and also like the way Please believe that wasn't the first time Draymond had yelled at Kevin. That was not the first time. Yeah, but this one felt there was a level. And also the way the other people reacted to the situation, that was the other key. It wasn't like, ah, just let them blow off some steam. This was like, we have to keep Draymond.

We're actually going to have a fight in the huddle here. Yeah, what's funny, though, is Draymond, everything I've heard, was really calm after the game. He was chilling and was smiling and was just like and i i think i talked to jackie mack about it and she said he was like chilling smiling i'm good because that's what he needs like it's not i don't think yelling and cursing and screaming is personal to dray like yeah it can be but i don't i think that he could say some just wild shit and just be like, okay, that was that. I'm good. I needed to get that out. You want to go to dinner?

I talked about this on a pod last week about how bizarre his offensive season has been. And Saturday night, I think he had two points but 14 assists and 12 rebounds. He was all over the place, but it doesn't seem like he can shoot threes anymore, nor does he really want to be. And this was a guy that I felt like when they needed him to be pretty good offensively, he could do it.

And that's just gone. What's what's the reason for that? Does it come back? I think Draymond needs stakes. I think Draymond needs real stakes to ball out. And I think his last great season was his like, great full season was 2016-17. And that was when they had lost the finals. They had just gotten Kevin.

A lot of people – a lot of shit was coming at the Warriors that year in terms of, this is a super team. You guys got Kevin. He's, you know, and he really wanted – that was his – when he won defensive player of the year, that was the last time he was locked in for the full season. But there's been stretches since then. And it's not a coincidence that the best basketball that Draymond plays

is when they're in a postseason game or there's a regular season game that matters. The 2019 finals, the 2019 finals and 2019 playoffs lights out. Averaging triple-double, all that. When there's no stakes, you're the worst team in the league. There were some times where he just didn't play last year he just how about game seven 2016 he was incredible that game

incredible but he needs that he needs that edge and i think that draymond is and i think that's why it's so hard to really pinpoint draymond's legacy because he's a really great player on a really great team he can elevate a great team but when you the team isn't great you see all those other things you know he can't probably can't shoot as well right he probably can't um and he can't pass it to like it's different when you're passing to kevin durant versus when you pass into kelly uber you know it's just a different vibe and um he's also you know he's starting to be locked in over the last few games but he needs though that pressure he needs that to get off he needs to talk shit he needs to be able to yell at some people he needs um it to be a game seven

stakes that's what he needs and i think that he hasn't had that and we're seeing the other side of his game right now you know who he reminds me of and i'm so happy to do this to you because i get to bring up the mid-80s cics. My favorite thing to do in a podcast. All right. Very reminiscent of Dennis Johnson. Okay. Who was a big stakes guy who was kind of never seemed like he was totally in shape. And when he was in shape,

it was like a big deal and there would be a news article about it. Who really needed to be with great teammates to kind of untap his own greatness. And if you put him with mediocre people or there was a game where Bird and McHale weren't playing or something, he wasn't somebody that could be like, all right, I'll score 35 tonight. But was awesome and was a winning basketball player whose IQ was ridiculous and who you just wanted out there anytime the stakes were high. And that's, I think, Dre, I think it's a short list over the course of NBA history

of guys like that, that you just would want them out there when the stakes are high. I mean, because since you threw us some Celtics, it's only right that I throw some Lakers guys that are in a similar vein.

I think, like, without, like, the bruster, I think Lamar Odom is another guy like that that sometimes floated, but when the stakes were down, what the Lakers did that was balling out.

Ron Artest is another guy that I would watch some games in 0-9-10 where you're like, regular season game, like, what are you doing, Ron? And then you would go at game seven of the finals, biggest stakes, balls out, wins the game for you. There's some guys like that in the league. Draymond's one of those guys who just needs it, bro. Like Stack says, he makes love to pressure, man. He needs that pressure.

And when he doesn't have it, it's just like, well, what am I doing right now? There's nothing to play for right now. Yeah. Well, we'll see how that goes. Right now they're a nine seed. Yeah. I mean, look, all these teams are bunched together.

You have the Portland's at number six at 12 and 10. And then Memphis is at, or New Orleans's at number six at 12 and 10. And then Memphis is at, or New Orleans is at number 12 at 10 and 12. Dallas is 11 and 14. It's going to be a hodgepodge. What's cool about this year is the playing game.

And the Warriors, I'm sure. That's going to be a fun playing team. They just want to get to the playing game, right? Because it's like, all right, if we, even if we're a 9 seed or a 10 seed and we have to win two, we're going to win two. We're the Warriors.

And conversely, you're a team like, I don't know, Sacramento, and you're a 7 seed. You're feeling good. But if it's a 7-10 matchup with Sacramento, Golden State, who are you picking? I'm picking Golden State, bro. I'm picking Golden State. Every time.

Every time. So it'll be fun to watch them. The weird thing about this season, we only have 50 games left now, maybe even less for some of these teams. So you kind of have to, can't really fuck around anymore. Like Miami's 9-14.

Like at some point, the switch has to go off. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be interesting, man. Another thing that's going to be interesting, and I was looking at this, I was looking at this before we got on the pod, next year is the last year of steph curry's deal and i'm not saying that i'm i'm not saying that he's gonna leave charlotte not saying this i'm not saying this what i'm

saying is this is the first time where steph really has he's never had this much leverage to um you know because last time he was up for a deal, you know, there was, there was no doubt that he was going to stay with the warriors. Right now he has leverage to tell the warriors, Hey, listen,

I'm going to need you guys to improve this team. I'm going to need you guys to make real moves to, to be a championship contender. I'm not saying he's doing that. I'm saying he has the leverage to do that. And that's going to be really interesting because he has a sign and extension. So that's going to be

something to look at is all. I would say, considering the Warriors spent $71 million on the Kelly Oubre transaction, they're probably willing to pony up for our guy's stuff. The thing is, though, I've always thought the Charlotte thing was an interesting wrinkle. I've always thought it.

I don't know about all that. I do think that, you know, in order for them to get to a title contention, they're going to have to trade one of those big, those big pillar pieces, honestly. I think that's just what it is. Well, it'd be Wiseman or it'd be that Minnesota pick or both. Right. You know, and I think that, or either there's one or two things that happen to happen. They have to trade for another all-star level player, preferably a frontcourt guy, or Wiseman just has to turn into David Robinson in two years.

He just has to turn into somebody really ridiculously great. But I'm just saying Steph has that last year of his deal, his next he you know he has that leverage that he just never has had before so steph lamello gordon hayward your words not mine all right uh so real ones it's what what are the nights on real runs uh it comes out on mondays and thursdays thursdays we try to get a guest in um Thursdays is the guest show. Mondays we talk about NBA. I love Roger's perspective on the league. We basically just use things that happen around the league for Roger to tell stories about what happened during his career. And it's really fun, man. He's really – I know you know this.

You've had him on your pod. He's really good at what he does, man. He's really good at podcasting. So I'm really excited to be working with him, man. And I think we're only going to grow. I think we're doing really great right now. And I think we got some stuff in store. Well, we also, I don't know if people know this, but we had to scare with Roger. We were worried Nash was going to hire him away right

after you guys hooked up together on the pod. It was going well. Oh, man, this is something. And then Nash got the job. That's a joke that we always throw out there. That's a joke that we always put out there. That's a joke that we always put out there. Yo, we've been trying to have you on for a segment. We have the real one of the week. We also have...

I'm ready. Just text me. I'm ready to come on. Bro, pour out a little liquor. You're supposed to pour out some liquor for the Celtics. No, I couldn't do that. You asked me to pour out liquor for the Celtics. I was traumatized.

Also, we introduced another one. I don't know if you're a Biggie fan. Remember the Mad Rapper? Remember the Mad Rapper? We have the Mad Hooper now. We just have a segment for the Mad Hooper. It's really good. We have a lot of things going on right now on the real ones, man.

Just tap into the real ones, bro. We have a lot of stuff that we're building right now. Hey, and come out to talk Celtics talk. If you ever want to talk Celtics talk, come through. And just talk about the league. Just slide through the real ones. Well, you and I will see each other

in a couple weeks because there's a rewatchables that we're doing. I don't want to give the movie away, but it's going to be good. I forgive you for comparing Lamar Odom to Dennis Johnson.

Good to see you, Logan Murdoch. See y'all. Talk to you soon. All right. As promised, clark is now back um we we i wanted to stack this after the nba because i literally have no idea how many people want to hear boxing mma talk on a podcast you are one of my favorite uh fight fan people in my life only because i only have like three fight fan people in my life only because I only have like three fight fan people in my life. You're one of them. Boxing match you're most excited for in 2021?

Fury Joshua is the number one because it's the only one where it seems like things are actually progressing towards a deal. I don't know anything else that's going to happen in 2021. Like everything Wilder and Fury were supposed to fight again. And then that there's some weird contractual thing.

And now Mark Breland, Wilder's former trainer who he fired for throwing in the towel, is saying that Wilder's career is over. Everything is so muddied in every other avenue of boxing that all I want to see is Fury versus Joshua in England. I mean, there've been so many different scenarios thrown around. Are they going to fight on a boat? Are they going to fight in England? Is it? Yeah. I mean, that was thrown around. I think it was Klitschko. Maybe it was Klitschko versus Joshua. One of the, one of the options there was that they were going to fight on some yacht and they were just going to have a bunch of rich people pay a million dollars each to go or whatever.

They're going to fight on the boat from Ozark in the Carolinas. The Jason Bateman casino boat just being the top show. That'd be cool. No, I think that fight will happen and that's what I want to see. The only thing I wish is that those British fights

need a British crowd and I could wait for post-vaccine for that. I wish is that those British fights need a British crowd. And I could wait for post-vaccine for that. Yeah. The interesting thing to me will be Cinco de Mayo, perennially an incredible boxing weekend, and whether they could get their shit together in time. And if they do, I don't think it'll be,

I think your scenario of like a boat or Dubai, you know, some, well, it'll be something like that, but we're going to have a Cinco de Mayo fight. We always do. We do. And I would also say the big thing is, so a couple of these fights have happened in football stadiums, but with arena style capacity. So you stretch, you, you get 15,000 to 20,000 people in a 60,000, 70,000-seat venue, which I also think could happen pre-vaccine. Is there an under-27 guy you're delighted about in any division,

not just heavyweight? I would say that Ryan Garcia is probably the most exciting prospect just as far as popularity goes. I don't think he's, I think, you know, I was hearing people talk the other day. If he fought Tank Davis right now, Tank Davis would probably tag him pretty good.

But I also think that he has, that both those guys have real superstar potential. I think that that whole, that whole weight class and the young guys there, whether that's Devin Haney, I think there's just a lot of young talent young talent in boxing, um, especially at the, the lower weight classes. So I think Ryan Garcia, Devin Haney, uh, Tiafimo Lopez, that whole crew. Um, I think that I love the Tiafimo Lopez Lomachenko fight was one of the most interesting things. It almost reminded me a

little bit of the super good one. Right. Yeah. So it reminded me a little Superbowl because we were giving Lomachenko the benefit of the of the Super Bowl. It's a good one. Yeah. So it reminded me a little Super Bowl because we were giving Lomachenko the benefit of the doubt the whole fight, and it turns out he was just getting his ass kicked. The announcers were like, well, he's downloading information. This is what he does. He downloads information the first two rounds. He didn't fight for like six

rounds. Yeah. Yeah. And then it was just like, wait. And then you're just like, in the seventh time, you're like, oh, wait, he's just getting his ass kicked. And it reminded me a little bit of the Chiefs where it's like, okay, well, wait till they make these adjustments. Oh, wait, no, no, no, no. The Bucs are just way better. And so Tiafema Lopez, to me, I heard Brandon Shops talk about this the other day, where it was just like no one, I guess Tiafema Lopez's dad said that no one is calling out Tiafema Lopez. And there's a reason for that. It's because GFU Lopez is awesome. It's funny that Canelo has officially turned into, and this should be its own, you know, they have like the pound for pound greatest boxer. There should also be the title of you fucking idiot. You bet against blank that championship out.

Canelo is now that guy because I talked myself into, I did like a big, the English guy that he fought the last time. I was like, oh, huge money line. Why not? Maybe, you know, COVID, maybe Canelo's not in shape. And within two seconds, you're like, I'm an idiot. I should have just set money on fire. Canelo is the guy to me now that it's like,

if you're going to bet against him, considering how much better he's gotten each year, I would say for the last five each year, it feels like he adds something. Betting against him is just dumb. And I don't see a scenario where anybody beats in the next couple of years. Yeah. Calum Smith was the British guy. Not his best night. I would say that generally I learned my lesson. I think I've always thought Canelo was amazing. I learned my lesson when I started to doubt him sort of months or weeks before the Kovalev fight. And I remember talking to people at DAZN and elsewhere.

I remember being like, man, that weight difference is pretty huge. Like, shouldn't we be worried about this? Shouldn't we be talking about this more? And everybody was like, no, no, we shouldn't be. It doesn't matter. And it gets to, it's like, it's like the Mahomes, right? Where it's just like, nah, none of this weight class doesn't matter. He's just going to beat the shit out of him.

And so I think he's amazing. I also think from a business standpoint, the fact that he's now like, nah, none of this weight class doesn't matter. He's just going to beat the shit out of him. And so I think he's amazing. I also think from a business standpoint, the fact that he's now a free agent, kind of the Brady model that you talked about, he wasn't going to stick with Oscar. There's going to be a lot of movement there, and he's taking control of his own career in the same way Floyd Mayweather did and some of these other guys.

And it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. The Callum Smith-Canelo fight was one of those fights that was at the Alamo Dome in San Antonio, and they were able to just spread it out a little bit. Um, so I think that there's, I think that the possibilities for him, um, he's fighting at the end of this month. Uh, and I think that there, there's probably some bigger fights for him on the horizon, a lot of different possibilities. I'm excited for the Canelo experience the next two years. Well, he's going to do the thing that all the great ones do. He's going to start rising up the divisions.

He's already doing it, yeah. It always goes two divisions further than you ever expected it to. I remember Tommy Hearns, by the end, was a light heavyweight. He was a welterweight. Roy Jones is another one. Roy Jones Jr. All of a sudden, Canelo is going to be fighting Tyson Fury in four years? Yeah, seriously.

Like, I honestly, I wouldn't rule it out. It's always two divisions higher than you ever thought. I was watching the Fox. I think it was two Saturdays ago. Fox had a big four-hour card. And it was a really bland telecast, right? Brian Kenney was doing the play-by-play, which was great. I love Brian Kenney was doing the play-by-play, which was great. I love Brian Kenney.

But for the most part, it was this telecast that was out of 1995. There was no gambling talk really at all. It was just kind of the slow, like the whole gambling revolution had to happen. And I realized that weird Tyson Jones pay-per-view, I thought was a portent of the future. And it's strange to me that everybody who shows boxing has not realized that yet. It should be bets, bets, bets, constantly, odds going up and down, whatever you're seeing. It should be a day.

I'm surprised Fox didn't have Sal on there. I would have had Sal as the third person just talking knockout props and all this stuff. To me, that Tyson thing opened up this door for how to make boxing more fun. And I'll be interested to see when the industry catches up to it. What do you think? Well, I would even expand that.

I would say that the Paul brothers, like what knockout went more viral than Jake Paul knocking out Nate Robinson, right? Like that was, that was amazing. And now Ben Askren's involved in that and Floyd Mayweather's fighting one of the Paul brothers.

I don't know. I'm in agreement with you. I think boxing and betting on boxing is really interesting and the prop bets, the most money I've ever made in my life on a bet is getting the exact round of McGregor Mayweather. I really enjoy that and it just gets to be a strategy of it.

Does it go the distance, whatever. And so, yes, I think betting can help boxing. I would say there's a lot of, I guess you'd call them niche sports that can be helped by the legalization of betting. Golf is certainly one of them. I might have a golf gambling problem

at this point. I certainly have a boxing betting problem. That is confirmed. But yes, I'm going to agree with you. They should be talking about this stuff. Before every round, the odds should be up for a knockout in this round for each guy.

Over, under five and a half rounds for some of these mismatched fights. And the announcers should be literate. The announcers should be literate in the whole thing. And that's the other piece they're missing. They need that third person in the telecast who just completely understands how to talk about it. And none of them, they all have the old Al Bernstein

type of old guy with the boxer and the play-by-play guy who talks a little too much. And that's just how they do it. And I would like to see it evolve or give me another channel. Give me the same telecast on a different channel. And it's just like the crazy gambling version of the same thing I'm watching. I guess a hundred, there are so many ways you could innovate it. and I think the gambling gambling would be number one I think that I what do you think about the sort of

the idea for UFC it's been tossed around that the cards should be announced before the final round I don't like that about this okay I've heard of I've heard it I I think it affects it too much because if somebody,

if somebody knew they were locked in, they would just run for that whole round. Right. So what would be the incentive of that guy to fight? Well, I think you'd see the desperation of the other guy. You can't, I mean, can you run around for 12 rounds or for, for three minutes, I guess is the question. I don't know. Maybe it works better in MMA. I'm not really sure. But I'm in agreement with you. The gambling thing to me is one of the most fun things. And I think there's some interesting numbers you can throw out there with regards to boxing. And I think there's ways.

I think we're going to see. I know this is the strangest thing in the world. But we're going to see some youth interest in this because of some of the publicity stunts. And because, listen, I went to that. My son. the Nate Robinson fight because the Paul brother was in it. I went to the fight, the Paul brother fight at Staples Center

and Israel Adesanya, who's a UFC champion and one of the best fighters ever seen, was sitting, it was me, Alyssa Bereznik, and Pat Muldowney. And the UFC champion was sitting behind us just as a fan. Like, that's what you needed. And he was there to watch Logan Paul. Like, this is...

It attracts a wide variety of fans. And I think that there's just something there. And, like, people like boxing. Like, the old joke is, like, boxing's the most popular sport in the world because if two people are outside your door playing football or playing tennis, you're going to ignore them. But if two people outside your door are punching each other in the face, you're going to go look right.

And I do think at its most basic part, like people will watch a fight between two people. And once that happens, you will get a certain percentage hooked on the actual sport. And that's why I think it's really interesting when you see these sort of fights. And I think that the Floyd Mayweather fight against I'm not sure why I think it's really interesting when you see these sort of fights. And I think that the Floyd Mayweather fight against, I'm not sure, I think it's Logan Paul. It's going to be a spectacle. It's going to be, it is Logan Paul.

It's going to be ridiculous. If we saw, so Mayweather fought a kickboxer a couple of years ago in an exhibition. And if you watch that, it looks like he's taking it easy until the kickboxer kind of tags him a little bit.

And then Mayweather was like, oh, is that what we're doing? And then the fight was over. Mayweather just unloaded on the guy. And I think there's a real possibility that that happens with Logan Paul. This is my Mayweather take. Is there a UFC fight,

possibly in 2021, that titillates you? I mean, Khabib has to come back. It has to happen. And I mean, Khabib has to come back. It has to happen. And, you know, I've seen Khabib versus Poirier before and I didn't like it. So I don't know what that looks like. The dream matchup always

is Georges St-Pierre against Khabib. And for some reason, that hasn't even... That's rumored every six months and someone's like, oh, it might happen. So one of them is re-enrolling in the drug testing

and coming back. And then two minutes later, they're like, that's actually not going to happen. So that would be the dream matchup. I would say obviously Stipe versus Francis Ngannou. So that's for the heavyweight championship. Those two guys fought in Boston

three years ago the night before the Jaguars Patriots game actually went as a fan I bought a ticket and Nganou was just not ready to go the word is he didn't train all that hard for that one he'd gotten so into his punching power and his punching power works like you and I were joking after the the fight island or the Jacksonville fight he had where he that was the first knockout you've ever seen where Nganou was he was walking backwards and he managed to knock the guy out. And so his punching power is legit. I think that he will probably have a better all around game. And that's going to, that's going to make the steep a fight close because the steep a fight three years ago was not close. It's steep. I knew exactly what to do with them and did it.

And so for me, as far as fights that are happening, it's DP versus Ngannou, and it needs to be a lot closer than it was three years ago. Kevin Clark, congratulations on an incredible Florida renaissance just across the board. The Rays, the Bucks, the Lightning, the Orlando Magic heading toward Cade Cunningham.

It's all been great. It's all coming up Florida these days. Jacksonville, Urban Meyer, Trevor Lawrence. Congrats. I root for one of those teams and it's the worst one you mentioned. We should have Cole Anthony. Yeah, you have Cole Anthony.

Stealth Rookie of the Year bit if LaBella Ball ever gets hurt. Kevin Clark, thanks for a great NFL season. Good to see you. Good to see you, Bill. All right, that's it for the BS pod. Back on Thursday with one more. Don't forget about the rewatch of us, Taxi Driver, me, Fantasy, Bill Hader.

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