The Bill Simmons Podcast - Super-Jimmy Thwarts Boston’s Finals Plans, with Kevin O’Connor and Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 28, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O’Connor and Ryen Russillo to recap the Celtics’ Game 6 loss to the Heat (01:07). They discuss Jimmy Butler’s and Kyle Lowry’s performances before diving into Robert Williams’s absence. Also, after missing clutch free throws, how will Jaylen Brown respond (24:12)? If the Heat win the series, those missed free throws will forever be remembered. The guys also debate if this was an all-time choke job from the Celtics before discussing if Heat Culture will be on the rise if the Heat win on Sunday (39:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor and Ryen Russillo Producers: Kyle Crichton and Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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because we're going to mix it up as we head toward 250 episodes. So check that out on the re-watchables. Coming up, Kevin O'Connor, Ryan Russillo going to break down a very tough Game 6 Miami-Boston. It's all next next first Pearl Jam all right taping this it is 8.30 Pacific time. The Celtics just blew a chance to make the finals. Jimmy Butler just played a possibly historic conference finals game.

Kevin O'Connor is here. Ryan Rosillo is here. I'm going to try to do this podcast while I'm not being distracted from a text from my dad who was ready to charge the court. Let's start with Jimmy Butler, though. Rosillo, what'd you see? I saw the reason why we, you know, it's kind of funny because when he starts a series, you're like,

he's the best player on the floor. You're like, is this going to hold up? Because I think he probably felt like Tatum was the better player coming into the series. And then the last three games were atrocious. And then he clearly was the best guy again. I mean, they just don't have a ton of offensive options. And they kept getting into switches.

And then I thought Boston did a good job of fighting out of bad switches. And it still just didn't matter. So, you know, he has the personality and makeup. There's just not a lot of guys that can do that, even if maybe we, you know, I think collectively hold them a little bit below that top tier. I just feel like every time Butler has a game like this, it turns into, well, Jimmy, man, you know, this guy's kind of under, you know, like, no, no, I think he's right where he needs to be. But tonight was a reminder how special he can be. KFC?

Absolutely. I mean, Ryan's right. He's he proved what he can do in the biggest games in the biggest moments. There's another one of those nights for him. And it really seemed like no matter, like they were hunting Derek White a lot, which says a lot that he's the quote-unquote weak link on the defense just because he's the smallest guy. But Jimmy Butler going at Derek White, or whether it was Boston pressuring, regardless of the type of defense, with or without Robert Williams on the floor, getting to the mid-range when the rim was protected, getting all the way to the basket. It was just an absolutely sensational performance by Butler and the Heat as a whole. It seemed like every time the Celtics threw a punch, Miami was willing to take it. And Bill, I know you're going to go, but to add to KOC real quick, this was hard. These were hard makes. These were tough drives. The and one on Horford to get the angle of that layup, the pull up at the end of the

shot clock, the inbounds of 2.2 seconds left. When we've seen Golden State go on these runs against Dallas, you're like, I can't believe how easy this is. This is ridiculous. This was hard. So go ahead. Couldn't agree more. I thought they should have trapped him. I thought it was pretty clear early in the game that he had it going. What did he have in the first quarter? 14, I think, in the first. Yeah, 14. He was 14-5-4, 6-10 field goals. He took 29 shots for the game. He was 16-29, 11-11 from the free throw line. 47-9-8.

That's about as good of a LeBron game as a non-LeBron person can play. And I just felt like it was clear he had it going. And I'm not really sure what the Celtics were doing because he was going by everybody. It wasn't like, yeah, fine, they're hunting Derek White, but he was also, he was going by Smart. He was torching Horford.

There was no Rob Williams, which we'll talk about in a second, that I think was a big piece of the fourth quarter, but it was alarming how easy it was for him to just at least be able to go one-on-one with whoever he wanted, and then on the flip side, Tatum, who was eight for 11 at one point, and I thought was playing really well. Miami just made him get rid of the ball. And

Smart, who ended up playing 40 minutes. And I thought that was one of the worst Marcus games in a big game that he's had. He's clearly hurt. But Rob Williams, my dad was at the game. He said, Rob Williams disappeared, went in the locker room at some point in the fourth quarter and did not come back. And the fact that they didn't have him, Grant was bad again, was in foul trouble, and Jimmy was just attacking, attacking, attacking. And he was the best player. The Celtics team has been so resilient, and they've always had a way of responding after these games.

At the same time, how many home losses is this in the playoffs, the last two rounds? They lost two to Milwaukee, now two to Miami. This is four home losses. I guess I just thought a little more highly of this team. I don't know whether they're more banged up than I realized because Marcus was just not even, he was a shell of himself, I thought. But this is, you got to close this out. Miami left the door so open for them. I know Butler was great, but this is almost a worse loss for the Celtics than it is a great win for the Heat.

Well, you know, a couple of things. When Marcus takes the most shots in a game six, probably something's going wrong. And I thought there were three possessions for Boston because I, you know, I don't know if this is all because we're from the area or how you watch a game through whatever lens you watch it through, but I'm just so worried about Miami's offense all the time that even when they got up double digits and they were chipping away at it, I was like,

okay, here we go. Then Pedro's in the crowd. I'm like, okay, well, this is also going to win this one. Pedro's over there. There were three possessions. Smart dribbled out the entire shot clock and took a three on the right side, and it wasn't even close. And then Jalen gets those free throws and misses both. And then Tatum had a couple, probably more than one. He had the PJ strip, which is a great instinct by PJs to abandon whatever they were doing. And then he had another one where he was driving on five people

while crashing into the paint because it was pretty clear they just only cared about Tatum. And Boston, it felt like 19-21 Boston at the end of those fourth quarters where you're just like, so what are you going to do? You're just going to watch Tatum try to ISO against all these people paying attention to one guy. I thought that weird stretch in there for the Celtics offensively. And then, you know, like I said, I watched it expecting Boston to figure out a way to pull this out because I just assumed at some point Miami would cool off offensively because I don't like their offense and none of those things happened. I thought Miami did a good job occasionally

trapping or occasionally doubling. They weren't always sending it. It seemed like there wasn't any consistency to the decisions of when they were doing it like the double with PJ Tucker perfectly time to strip him, go back the other way and draw the foul. I don't know. I mean, I think Boston, a lot

of carelessness in that first half, especially with the ball. The Derek White foul? Oh, yeah. And by the way, what is Derek White doing? Why are you giving them a chance? So, that's not on the refs at all. Go ahead. Bill mentioned that Marcus Smart jumper as well. That was a no, no, no, no

shot. I'm sure your dad was texting you about that one, Bill. Very angry. Derek White, of course, had the Jose Alvarado steal right after that, but it didn't matter. I don't know dad was texting you about that one, Bill. Very angry. Derek White, of course, had the Jose Alvarado steal right after that, but it didn't matter. I don't know. It just seemed like Miami did a good job trapping. I thought they did a good job defensively to make things difficult on the Celtics. But at the same time, though, why does

Boston again spend so much time looking for the switch for Tatum instead of just running offense? And why go so slow? You're starting the shot clock? You're just barely getting it over at 16 seconds, and then it's another eight seconds. Now you get the ball with... I mean, that possession Rosillo mentioned,

that way it was 99-99. And they come up, and they chew up, Smart chews up like 22 seconds, just unable to do anything, and then chucks up a 28-footer, and then White stole it back, and it led to those two Brown missed free throws. I thought the biggest moment of the game,

other than the Jalen missed free throws, which we'll talk about in a second, it's 97-94 Boston, timeout, 4.43 left. They've clawed all the way back. Horford just hit a three, biggest first shot he hit all game. Then White hits the corner three. Did you guys know his dad played in the NBA? KFC tweeted it.

I was thinking the same thing. It was like it had the makings of the Derek White game. It was like, okay, did Derek White save the day here? They come out of the timeout and they run this play for Lowry, who was really good tonight. And Lowry hits a three all of a sudden. That Lowry three was really good tonight and Lowry hits a three all of a sudden. That Lowry, that Lowry three was unbelievable. Yeah.

And Lowry had one of those Chris Paul games where, so he finished with, um, no, he, he was 18 and 10. He only made five shots, but it felt like he made 10. He was all over the place. I think he eventually fouled out, but he probably could have had 20 fouls. That's what I meant by the Chris Paul thing. He was just physical. His hands and his arms were everywhere.

He was always trying to draw charges. And I just thought him and Butler were the best guys in the game. And that was why they won. It wasn't even like they got a lot from Bam. Strews hit a couple threes, but they were making it seem like Strews is back. He was three for eight from three.

And nobody else really did anything offensively. For the game, if you take out Jimmy, they were 24-49. I mean, it was the Jimmy Butler game, KOC. It absolutely was. And it seemed like for Boston, there's nothing they could do

given their game plan. Maybe less of easy switches? Do you think maybe you're blitzing or trapping or hedging against Jimmy Butler more in a game seven now? Is that the adjustment you make or do you continue doing what you're doing? Do we know he can do that again? Because for the previous three

games, he was a shell of himself. And then, Rossello, miraculously, him and Lowry, who looked like they had dirt poured over them, and then Rossella miraculously, him and Lowry, who looked like they had dirt poured over them, and then Haslam after saying how thanks to Draymond Green, because Draymond Green said we're going to be playing the Celtics on TNT, and apparently that motivated the heat. So that motivated the heat, that Draymond Green said that?

That's all it took? They were going to go home for the summer, and then Draymond Green makes one comment, and now Miami's motivated again? I don't understand it. TNT had the Celtics up, and they were comparing their stats with Golden State when I was watching the postgame last night.

And I'm thinking, like, man, that's pretty aggressive, but that's how bad he looked. And that, you know, game five was weird because they're like bosses down five at the half, and when Miami goes on these horrific offensive stretches, I'm kind of like, you know, that's why I've always worried about you. I mean, I think I joked the last couple months of the season where I go, Miami's going to end up in the NBA Finals.

They're going to be saying, yeah, I really don't see it. Or a game away from that. They're winning the title, and they're like, I don't know. It's a parade going. I don't know about their half-court sets. But this game is also this series series and this is why after game three bill you and i are doing the podcast praising these personalities right and they showed up again and just when you think you have this series figured out you don't have it figured out and i

i cannot emphasize this enough if you have any kind of pride which this team does right there's just a different level that you're going to play at when you're facing elimination. And I felt like for Boston, a little of the stuff that we haven't liked about them in the past, granted, I think they've proven time and time again, especially in the Milwaukee series. I don't think we can unfairly say, oh, I don't know about this Boston team.

They really have that killer instinct. When they've played like this for such a long time, I'll admit it creeps into my head every now and then, but I don't think it's fair because of the Milwaukee series, right? You come back and beat that team, then you are something but i just don't know that there's anything replacing playing and knowing you don't have another game if you don't win and that's why i still like boston in game seven not to jump ahead to seven here but i just think this is this is what this series is it never makes sense when you think it will. Yeah, KFC, Miami was eight and a half point underdogs today.

Huge number. And I thought Boston, I said this before this game, I thought Boston was going to win this series, but I was not going to be surprised if they lost today. And weirdly, they've been as good or better of a road team

as they have been a home team. Did you bet Miami? I stayed away. Have you ever, have you taken the points against the Celts in a playoff game ever? No, not when like a finals trip is at stake, but I just thought the line, I thought it was too high. I did not, they were banking on basically Miami rolling over and dying, which I guess after Wednesday, maybe, maybe is a good, good banking.

But the Lowry thing, Lowry couldn't move in game four and game five so I don't know they they went oh what they went one for 50 in two games like when you looked at the Struis Lowry combination stats from games four and five like you kept looking and going I they had a number from game five where in the half court their points per 100 was or their points per possession was like 0.6 right I thought there was a chance they were going to bench Lowry today

I really did I because I actually thought he was unplayable after game five as they get he's not healthy it's he's hurting them more than helping them and instead it was Caleb Martin and Duncan Robinson in the second half. And that was one of the big adjustments for Smolstra to make that. And it wasn't Lowry

and Butler who were dead. It was Al Horford. I mean, he had his worst game at the worst possible time for Boston as well. Yeah. Well, that's the every other day thing. Well, that leads us to the Rob Williams piece of this. Because they're just a different team when he's not out there, especially you don't get the alley Williams piece of this. Because they're just a different team

when he's not out there, especially, you know, you don't get the alley-oops anymore. You don't have Miami worried about the stuff around the rim anymore. And then defensively, he was challenging everything. He was all over the place.

I think I know the moment when he might have tweaked the knee again. He had this sequence where it almost felt like he had either blocked or tried to, it was in the second quarter, like he had blocked or tried to block like three different shots in a row. And then it cut to him and it was a timeout and he was just hunched over with his hands on his knee. And I remember thinking like, oh no. Oh, cause he's almost like a car that you don't want to go over like a hundred miles an hour. Cause you don't know what's going to happen to

the engine. Anytime he has one of those frenzied sequences, I always get nervous. But the fact that he wasn't even out there at the end, I thought that really handicapped Udoka because Grant has sucked really for most of this series, but especially the last couple games. He was bad again today. That was why they had to waste that challenge,

I guess in retrospect, because they knew Rob wasn't coming back, right? KOC? So you're like, Grant can't foul out because then what are you going to do? But Grant was bad. So the Rob thing lingering in the game seven plus smart looking the way he did, I'm definitely not optimistic. And you said that your dad mentioned that he was in the locker room. He saw him go to the locker room in the fourth quarter. He left him go to the locker room. Yeah, he left in the fourth quarter. He left in the fourth quarter, apparently. I mean, that's terrible news for Boston,

especially with the deterrent that he is against Bam Adebayo as well. Because for Miami, you have Jimmy Butler with a dominant night. Kyle Lowry was really good. And bam, six points on six shots. But if you are removing Robert Williams out of that equation, that opens up more possibilities for him scoring at the rim, drives to the rim,

rolls to the rim, offensive rebounds with Bam. I mean, Boston's done a good job neutralizing him besides that one big performance. Yeah, Horford does such a good job. It reminds me of when he used to go up in a bead years ago

and the reason you like Horford in the matchup. And I think we even joked that Philly signed him just to get him away from being able to defend Embiid? Oh, yeah. Because he just shuts you off. He shuts you off and he makes you stay parallel.

You don't get deep on him when you go across. I think sometimes Bam just flat out doesn't want to attack him. He doesn't like it. But the Grant challenge, I know people are going to be pissed about it because the shot already counts. So now you're basically just talking about the cost of the free throw. But i thought that he wanted to do it because it was going to be grant's fifth and he just wanted grant as the option even though he was bad um and it definitely you know it was funny because i'm watching the legs going what are they calling and then when they like

they'll pull and then you look at the top you're like oh they like he fouled him he fouled him at the top and we were all watching jimmy's legs and where he landed thinking that that was going to get overturned and there's probably the two plays after the fact that you look at going well they would have had the challenge the offhand charge they called on tatum on the drive to the right side on tucker's and that was awful i mean jesus christ every every good player in the league does that on 10 drives and then the other one on jimmy with the drive in the baseline where just he out of bounds, the ball was off of him. He threw the ball out of bounds. Yeah, yeah.

But I want to make it very clear. The refs were all over the place. They were bad for everybody. Right, but it was all over the place. It had nothing to do. I really don't think it had anything to do with the outcome. No, Butler, the reason they won is because of Butler. P.J. Tucker said after the game,

tell Draymond I said I appreciate it. So somehow, Draymond, who's not even on the Celtics, now maybe this is the evil genius of Draymond because he wanted to play Miami and not the Celtics, so he floats it out there. Oh, we're playing the Celtics because he knows it's going to motivate them. Let's take a quick break and then we'll cover more.

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break. Celtics heat Game 7. If you like the Celtics, the line's not going to be that high. It's going to be probably in the two to three range. He could bet the money line. If they're going to win, it's going to be because Tatum has a good game. Bet the over for points.

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. Can you guys guess how many shots combined Tatum and Brown had in the second half of that game? Combined. Combined? Nine? Seven.

Seven. Seven field goals combined by the two best guys in the Celtics in the second half. And as Russillo said, listen, we could probably do a 538 style study on this, but what is the Celtics record in games where Marcus has taken the most field goals on the team in an important game? I'm going to guess the winning percentage is not over 500 would be my guess i would normally go off uh on this but i just been generally so impressed with marcus yeah transitioning into who he's become the last few months and what he means to this team and all that stuff like i i agree with you and if we were doing this segment a year ago i i probably you

would have turned my mic off after a while because I just don't get it. But I actually, I think it's remarkable the way he's kind of accepted. Like I used to always think he played as if deep down he thought he was the best player on the team and he wanted those big moments. Like I used to call him like Twan. Like remember how Twan would always go like,

I'm taking this three because it's going to be so sick if I make it. Right. He would have. And I think Smart used to have. I think they, the heat did such a good job of closing off any driving lanes whatsoever. And then the weird part is Derek white out of nowhere is keeping you in it

with threes. But then when the one you really, really needed, thank you. I think all of us would probably say out of his hands. I was like, yeah, that one's probably not going to get the one they need the most.

Isn't going to go in. So I agree with your smart thing. It's just, I'm different with him now. because I appreciate what he's doing. Well, to me, it's less of a criticism of smart, more that he's not smart. He's injured smart. I just don't think he's moving remotely the same way,

especially offensively. He has no kind of burst drive to the basket at all, and I don't think he has the legs for a shot. So it's rough. KFC, why did they stop playing Pritchard? Game five, they win by 20. He plays 25 minutes. He goes five for eight, hits three threes.

He's 14 points. And in general, I think he's been pretty good in this series and seemed kind of unafraid. Why play Marcus Smart on a bad ankle 40 minutes and you play Pritchard basically four and they were all meaningless? I think it's all the reasons Ryan just said. You're banking on Marcus Smart with his playmaking and his defense and the rebounding and the energy.

He's kind of the middle linebacker out there directing the defense around. I think he brings value in that sense. And with Pritchard, the Celtics definitely do worry about targeting. The longer he's out there, the more they're going to be able to target him. Like they were targeting Derek White at times, even though Derek White's not a liability at all. That would have been Peyton Pritchard if he's out there getting those minutes. If Butler's scoring on everybody anyway, maybe you want to have more offense.

Because they were not guarding Marcus in the fourth quarter. They were completely happy with him being in the corner and they did not care. You know, I also wonder if it's different with Pritchard with no Rob Williams. They're like, you know, just a thought throwing it out there. We're like, OK, if Pritchard's out because they would be hunting him like crazy. And you're right, though, it felt like it worked. And I still think late in the game, Boston did a good job of getting back to some of the original assignments.

Like they were doing a really good job kind of shuffling through that stuff. Um, there's one thing that I would ask though, like, cause smart basically was primarily on Butler towards most of the end of the game. I don't remember the entire, cause like you had Tatum and Lowry. I never understand with like a strong driving player, why you want to get out and into a shit like 35 feet away from the hoop. Right. I just don't, like I can understand trying to prevent somebody from getting into their

offense and slowing them down. And they're starting later in the shot clock. So they don't have kind of, you know, if it goes into an offensive rebound, there's none. I just, well,

if the shot clock resets, anyway, the point is, I think there's a lot of times where everybody gets so excited and there's nothing i just well if the shot clock resets anyway the point is i think there's a lot of times where everybody gets so excited and there's you want to show how much effort how hard you're playing that if the other guy is a great ball handler and has the size advantage you being as close as you possibly can do them that far away from the hoop doesn't actually serve you as a defensive player it just doesn't and a lot of times you end up getting called for fouls because you're reaching in all the time i I think a good example of what you're talking

about, Ryan, was I think around two minutes left, Marcus Smart kind of met Jimmy Butler around the logo and Miami came up and set a screen and you get Derek White kind of hedging on it, you know, 30 feet from the basket and Jimmy Butler was able to get an open layup inside. And a lot of momentum, right? Because you're clearing the screen that far away. And then you can see everything too. Like, look, if it's Jalen Brown, get out there. You know, like, I don't know what happened. It's funny because in game five, Jalen had those three makes in a row

and he didn't dribble on any of them. And you're like, oh, wow, here you go. And Van Gundy's even hitting at it too. Like, he's going a little quicker. He's not screwing around with the basketball. But that was just something. But when Jimmy hits threes like that, and then he hit the other one in the corner

towards the end of the game, there's nothing you can do. That's the one knock in his game, and then you have that. And I just, I can't, I can't get over how incredible he was tonight. And the shot off the inbound. That was nuts.

Yeah, to put the threes in perspective, he shot 23.3% from three point this season. And he was four for eight in this game. I want to talk about the Jalen free throws. You do? I do. The Jalen free throw thing,

and I noticed when I said, my dad, who has a better, and I watch a lot of Celtics, but my dad has gone to so many games this year and just really has a feel for the team. And when we're sitting next to each other in game three and four, every time Jalen went to the line, my dad was like, oh God, one for two, here we go. Like he just said, he just thinks Jalen has the yips for whatever reason. So he misses those two and And it would have put them up 101-99 with a little over two minutes left.

He misses both. Butler comes down and has that incredible three-point play. And it's a five-point swing. We go from Boston's going to be up two, crowd's going nuts, to wait, we're down three? What just happened? And I think, here's my fear if the Celtics end up losing the series.

You have these playoff series where sometimes it's just one play and you remember it 15, 20, 25, 30 years later, right? I did a whole thing about the worst Celtics losses on the pod a couple weeks ago. And it was like Detroit game five, Boston 1988. There was this little Lambert backpedal jumper that he hit. And it was one of those things where the game ended.

It was like, God, I'll be thinking about that shot the rest of my life. And you have these losses, right? Like the 2010 finals game seven, that our test three, where the ball gets swung to him and the whole crowd's going, no, even though it's in LA and he makes it. And just sometimes you have those moments. And I do wonder if the Celtics loses the series, will that be the Jalen, those two frees that he missed? Cause it free throws

that he missed. Cause it felt like, it just felt like the air went out of the building and I was watching on TV. Do you know what I mean though? Like how every series has that one moment like that? I hope that's not it. Yeah, I thought the Derek White's deal was going to be the Dave Roberts stolen base. Right. You know? Your dad's right about Jalen. This is a serious thing.

He's 75% last couple years. You know, you feel good about him. 75, 80% is usually a pretty good number. I know that seems lower, but look, I'm not telling you it's awesome. Solid. He was 78% against Brooklyn, 72% against Milwaukee, and he's at 60%

now against Miami. That's a problem. Right. That's a problem for a guy that also can't dribble now either. And yet he had, what, 40 the other night? Yeah, what do you think, KFC? Does every series have the one moment? Yeah, I mean, as you were talking, I was

thinking about, remember that Paul Gasol baseline jumper? I think it was Game 7, Celtics-Lakers, where he jumped up and down, his feet touched the ground before he released the ball. There really should have been a travel call there.

That's the play that sticks in my mind. I remember Game 7, 2012 Miami, after the LeBron game when LeBron destroyed them. And it went back to Miami, and then that game was close, and it was tight in the fourth quarter. And then Chris Bosh hit two threes from the corner. They might have even been in a row, and it was just one of those things where you go, this ain't happening.

Same thing with what was the Cleveland-Boston game, 2018 Game 7. Tatum hit the three in the dunk, and the crowd was going nuts, and then this hazy memory, I might have blocked out of mind of Jeff Green hitting a shot

and just being like, oh, that wasn't good. Remember after Game 5, Celtics heat, the good job, good effort kid, the kid screaming in the Miami tunnel, good job, good effort, good job, good effort. Remember that? Yeah, it's true. That guy, he became a phenomenon. He has a startup

now. I think they're valued at like $5 billion. I wonder what he's doing these days. There's a bunch of stuff going around now too because 10 years later, the heat came back from 3-2. Look at this. Heat could be down 3-2. I don't even think this is close to the same feel that I had. I thought it was so fluky

that that Boston team was up on that heat team in 2012. No, this is way worse. They have a better team and Butler just absolutely big boy them. Again, this is twice in a series now where he completely big boy them coming up next.

Could Jimmy Butler win the MVP of this series for the Eastern Larry Bird trophy anyway? Oh, wow. I didn't even think of that. That's going to sting. Huh, Bill?

Yeah. Boston, Boston wins the series, but Butler gets the MVP trophy. I don't know if the legend was in the house today. I didn't see him. Pedro was theirs. That's all I cared about. Yeah.

Maybe Pedro was the one who was doing the trophy. Should they name it the Pedro Martinez Eastern Conference Finals MVP next? Larry's like, please no longer name the trophy after me. I can't believe the Celtics choked away that game. KFC, what are your predictions for game seven? It's two nights from now. It's a night game. The Celtics team that looked like

they were going to be able to close out, have a great time, get some rest for six days, play this Golden State team that they match up against really well. And now they got to suck it up again. They've gone back to back. Really since what? Game three, Milwaukee?

I think they played 12 games in 22 days, something like that. Yeah, I think it's since like May 4th, that Tuesday to Saturday stretch during the Milwaukee series that they haven't had more than a day off. Right, so they went Saturday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday, and then all the way through this series. It looks like a tired team. I mean, Grant Williams, like you were talking about earlier, seems like a shell of his former self right now. Robert Williams banged up. If you tell me Robert Williams will be active for that game and looking like he did for the most part of his 26 minutes, I'd pick Boston in the game. If you're telling me Robert Williams isn't active or he's severely limited from whatever happened in the second half,

then I like Miami's chances to get Bam going a little bit more than they have been able to. Grant Williams, a show of himself, but still annoying. Still figuring out how to be agitating. It's unbelievable, man. I mean, when you have zero points, you can't argue that much. There's a rule, actually. It's unbelievable, man. I mean, when you have zero points, you can't argue that much. There's a rule, actually. It's in the book.

Very rarely cited. That would be a good rule. If he got a technical and Eric Lewis was like, you're violating the you have no points. Yeah. Be like, Grant, you need one bucket to address us at any point. It'd be just great. They're three minutes into the second quarter and he comes over for his seventh meeting and they be like, Grant, you need one bucket to address us at any point. Like, it'd be just great. Like, they're three minutes into the second quarter,

and he comes over for his seventh meeting. And they're like, Grant, until you score, you can't talk to us. Can you? Actually, it'd be a pretty good rule that we're talking about it. We should cut down a lot of talk. We should have a spinoff podcast where we just talk about Grant Williams and interview different people in the Celtics organization with Grant Williams stories. I told you the story, right?

Did I tell you the story about LeBron? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You should tell it though. Okay. Because the person that told it to me was checking in with me today going, I am so excited about all your Grant Williams content. You have the freedom to tell the story.

I was like, I think I already did. Maybe I just told Bill off the air. All right, so the story goes, and by all accounts, Grant's the kind of guy you would want on your team, but it can be a little grading personality-wise. And he's big on being prepped on everything too, like everything and I know all the plays and whatever. So he was on the bench there playing the Lakers,

and LeBron was about to inbound and Grant gets up and he's like, horns! You know, whatever the set was that he was convinced. He's like, it's going to be horns! It's going to be horns! You know, which would be for out of bounds. So just forget my terminology here. But Grant was screaming specifically the terminology based on his film prep of what it's going to be.

And LeBron looks at him and goes, no, Greg. No, Greg. That's not it, Greg. Greg Williams. It's kind of like when Jackie Mack called me KFC. KFC. That's better. We should have turned that into

a sponsorship. I have a question for you guys. KFC is great on the draft. KFC. What do you think the line is on FanDuel for Game 7 Celtics Heat? Say Boston minus three and a half. KFC?

I was going to say four and a half. It is Boston by two and a half. Raheem Palmer, new free agent acquisition for the Ringer, starting next week. He says since 2003, we've only had two instances of home teams being underdogs in game seven of the NBA playoffs. They both won two probably. Can you name the teams? This will be interesting. I would have gotten one of them. I would have forgotten the other. Since how long? 2003. So last 19 years. All right, first one.

Sorry, Rossell. The 2018 Rockets. 5.5 underdogs to the Steph KD Warriors and the Warriors won. The other one, the 2015 Rockets, the game after the Josh Smith-Corey Brewer game, they were two and a half point dogs at home and they won game seven. For the record, despite the Chris Paul allegiance,

I was not rooting for him in that series in 18. In 18? Harden canceled it all out. And Chris Paul was hurt anyway. Yeah, so I had two excuses. So this is the first time since 2003 that we haven't had Chris Paul involved in an underdog game seven situation. So he's got to be relieved.

That's pretty good. I think this I think this should be even nuts. Without Rob and with smart on one leg and with whatever's going on with Grant Williams and the fact that Jimmy's going a little bit and Kyle Lowry kind of came out of his coffin. Yeah, but don't you think this line also reflects the other side of like, if Jimmy was that terrible and banged up for three games, like, what do you expect?

It's going to revert back. But, you know, credit Van Gundy for saying what I think a lot of us have said, like, you know, the Ty Lue line about, hey, what's the injury report? Everybody's hurt's playing okay there's that and man gunny can sound like some old curmudgeon at times but i actually think like he might be more right about the rest of us that they're like oh this guy's hurt or that guy's hurt or this guy oh he had a bad game he was hurt and sometimes it's true like we don't really know but i also think these guys are are capable of doing some pretty

incredible things that put them in positions to be pro basketball players in the first place. It's a total guessing game, but I don't think you can only paint it with the what-if scenarios with three different Celtics storylines and completely ignore that. I think Vegas, because the number was so big tonight, they might have

been begging you to take the heat because they just think Boston's better. That's the thing. They set the line. They want equal amounts of action. I was driving around listening to Eddie Johnson and Justin Termini yesterday on the Sirius NBA show. Is that your favorite radio show? I think it's great. You love it.

Anytime I'm driving around, I'm 100% listening. I called in today. I was like, can I call in? I talked to them for 25 minutes. But Eddie did this great- This is your favorite show. I called in. Bill is one of the busiest guys in the business.

I texted him. I was like, I got nothing to do. It's three o'clock PT. I'm calling in. Eddie did this great thing yesterday about the concept of people being hurt during the playoffs. And he was like, and it was basically, it was the Van Gundy point multiplied by three. He was just like, look, it's the playoffs. And he went through all the playoffs and he was like, 93, I had a, I had a pulled hamstring and I had this, you know, I went out there and I, his whole point was like,

nobody is healthy at this point in the year. You've played 95 games, 98 games, 100 games. You have something. Your knee hurts. You got a sprained ankle or whatever. And he actually said, there was one year in Houston, 97, where I was pretty healthy that playoffs. I felt really good that year because I hadn't played that many minutes during the season.

So I felt good in the playoffs. And I remember like, wow, it's round three. I still feel pretty good. And his point was like, everybody's banged up. So he's just, the guys who have actually played, and I think Van Gundy counts this too, you know, because he coached. It was just like, these dudes, it's like a hospital ward

by the time you get to round three. And I said this the other day when I was talking to House about this. Like, I think this is what makes LeBron's eight-year stretch so incredible with the 168 playoff games he played where it never really seemed like he was ever that hurt. And he just was always able to shrug stuff off and how physical his game was.

And it just never mattered. He was just going forward, going forward, going forward, which I think is such a big part of his legacy. Anyway, anything to add, KFC? I think Michael Pina had a good interview with Grant Williams on SI recently, and he asked him straight up, have you ever felt the way you do right now

playing basketball, kind of along the lines of what you're talking about? And Grant was pretty open. He's like, no. Everybody's dealing with something right now. You have to deal with it. You just have to change your treatment, change what you're doing between games,

and it's the truth. It's the truth. When you have 14 games in 28 days or whatever it is right now. You have to deal with it. You just have to change your treatment, change what you're doing between games and it's the truth. It's the truth. When you have 14 games in 28 days or whatever it is right now, all of these guys are having to adjust right now. And I think for both of them, having a little bit of time off before the finals, whoever wins it, and then I think it's every game besides one

in the NBA finals, there's two days off between games, if I remember correctly. So that's going to be of a great benefit to Boston or Miami, whoever does advance. Russel, I have a quick I used to play basketball comment. Don't do it. This is one of those things, the longer you go away from having played, you take it for granted more. Taking a charge or getting bowled over when somebody's driving in the basket, when you're in the way, and especially if it's a bigger guy or a guy who's strong.

I can't describe how much that hurts. And when you watch, like, how many times has Grant Williams in almost three rounds got bowled over? Right. I mean, I don't count Low in a position to get run over by dudes bigger than them full speed 10 times a game. If you want to make the game safer, stop calling it. Stop rewarding it, really. And then we could talk about the screens where now all you have to do is fall on a screen. And people were like, oh, well, you know, there's too many illegal screens.

Just let them be illegal. Seriously, let them be illegal and let guys fall down and be out of position. And then it's five on four. And guess what will happen? Guys will stop falling down. Exactly. I don't know why they want this to keep happening. Like, I think we're in this safety obsessed run that I don't think is ever totally fixable in the way we talk about a lot of the sports.

But one way to do it would be like the Oladipo Tatum one where they initially called him in the restricted. I think the baseline official was going to call it a charge and he had it right and gave it to the guy that was close to him on the sideline. In today's NBA, that's a great play by Oladipo. No one would even

attempt that back in the day. Again, this isn't like it's new, but I would love the league to just start saying, let's just stop calling all that stuff and the guys will stop doing it. And they'd actually probably feel better because you just, you wouldn't be trying to take these ridiculous charges. When you get Van

Gundy and Jackson arguing over, is it a block or a charge on national TV? I think that kind of says it all for you about how easy it is to call that. They should just get rid of it. One of my Celtics text threads, this is just a text my friend Hench said. Wick? No, this is my friend Hench. My eight-year-old has been tugging me all game to do something.

Now I hate myself almost as much as I hate Kyle Lowry. The previous three conference final losses were all forgivable. This will be an all-time choke. 8.5 point favorites at a home closeout? Hensh is like unraveling right now on text. I don't think it was an all-time choke because I think they're banged up, but it's

a pretty rough one not to close out at home. Look, I might just be wrong. I think Boston's better than them. It has nothing to do with where I grew up or anything like that. It just doesn't. I think anybody listening to me long enough would know that. I mean, it took me forever to actually like this team. So I think it's pretty bad.

I think it's bad to not be able to close it out there. And it felt like they were heading in that direction. And then the Jalen free throws. We'll forget it. If they win game seven, none of us will remember those free throws. And if Miami pulls it off at home, which you can't. And if they lose, get ready for the DeAndre Ayton trade. No.

All right, here's the recap of the series. Jimmy Butler won two games basically by himself. Right? He just completely big-boyed the Celtics, and they won both. And then game three, they turned into a football game, and it worked. And by the way, anytime I complain about the stuff that he does, I think they should do it. It's smart.

Like Bam out of Iowa today, once he was setting the moving screens and they weren't calling him, that was it. Like it became a huge advantage for the Heat. He was moving on everything. He was setting three-second long screens, and they weren't calling it. So he should do that. I think it's a really smart, playoff-tested team of especially three guys who have been in a bunch of big games. And I think from a Celtics standpoint,

you'd say, well, wait, Tatum and Brown and Smart have also been in big games. But over and over again in these tight games, they've unraveled, right, KFC? And this has been a recurring theme with this team this year in these close games. they've unraveled, right, KFC? And this has been a recurring theme with this team this year in these close games. They've had a lot of trouble. Yeah, I mean, they've had trouble, but you

can also point to some of the epic performances that Tatum has had, like the Game 6 last round, 46 points against the Bucs. Right. I mean, I think the missed free throws by Jalen Brown, and you mentioned your dad getting nervous when he's at the line late in games. That's fair.

But it's not like these guys haven't had monstrous performances. I think what I try to still remember with this team is they've been ahead of schedule. Like Ryan said earlier, the other Eastern Conference Finals losses they had were forgivable. They were ahead of schedule with young teams. They're still ahead of schedule now with Brown at 25 and Tatum at 24. But given the circumstances with the lead that they had

up 3-2 in the series, I kind of side with Ryan here. They've been ahead of schedule in the past when they were a young team in those three prior Eastern Conference Finals. But this team at this point, Tatum at 24, Brown at 25, still young, still can get better. But if they blow this, it will go down as a choke job.

So here's where I stand on this. Because they are banged up. And even though that's an excuse, they are. Like Smart and Williams are not remotely close to the same guys that they were, I don't think, by the time we get to this Game 7. I look at it more from the window of this team dating back to like 2000, what, 16 range. And they've had a bunch of different chances.

They've had some luck with the conference was pretty weak. The bubble, it was sitting there for them. And they just couldn't get by Miami after they had just clawed their way past the Toronto team that was very similar to this Miami team that was a little outmanned, but just was so much more savvy. I think blowing this one would hurt because

I mean, obviously it would hurt for all the reasons you would think, but I think the window is, you think about all the things that fell for the Celtics team this year, right? Where the Brooklyn thing goes haywire, you lose Middleton in round two, huge win there. And then game three, like

you know, Lowry for most of the series, he missed the first two games. He was luggage for the next three. Butler looked like he was falling apart as the series went along. On the other end, you have Phoenix that just flames out out of nowhere. You have the Clippers that had all those injuries. And Golden State,

they get to the finals, and I'm not even positive they're ready to be a finals team, but that's how it worked. They? They got to be, they beat Denver in round one. It was Jokic, nobody else. And last round, Ja goes down. And then this round, that Dallas team that just all of a sudden couldn't make threes anymore. Now they're in the finals and this Celtics, it's sitting there for them. And if they blow this Miami thing, this is one of the all-time lost titles for the Souths because I think they would have beaten Golden State.

Lost title, I think, is assuming a lot against Golden State. We got to stop comparing this Golden State team to prime Golden State teams because that Golden State team is arguably one of the best teams we've ever seen in the history of the game. I think that's assuming a lot that if Boston were to get through this series that it's just waiting for them.

Obviously, I don't mean that, but I just think they match up great with Golden State. That's fine. That's fine. And I would agree, though, on the other point, like when you run through all the other conference finals, that Isaiah Thomas team stunk. The East was awful.

Their second-leading scorer was Avery Bradley. When they lost to LeBron in Game 7, they were playing with teenagers while Kyrie couldn't show up to the arena. When they lost to Miami, you know what? They couldn't do anything with Bam. They just didn't have enough options. Bam destroyed them.

And I still think... And Dragic. Dragic. And you and I disagree. I think if Boston gets in to the finals, it would have been even worse because that team two years ago, if there was another really good big, especially somebody like Anthony Davis, I don't know how they were going to stop him.

So I don't think there's any chance in hell that... I'm talking more about they haven't made the finals in any of these years. To me, it's like to not make the finals once out of all these times would be pretty bad. Right, but I think there was always kind of like, you know, you just know how it works. You're around long enough. Brad Stevens gets

talked up. It's like, oh, this guy can't win. I'm thinking like, I think it's amazing he's in these Eastern Conference finals with those teams. If they lose this one with Lowry missing shots for four straight days, who can't even run around in the beginning of the series, and the fact that Heroes missed the last two games for an offense that already was probably the worst of the contenders, and there's no Hero, if Boston blows this after getting to close it out

at game six, up three and two, this is going to be bad. The other ones I never thought were fair criticisms were coming out. This will make up for it. I thought game seven, 2018, even though LeBron was on the other side, they really had to play terribly to lose that game because LeBron did everything he could, but he had nobody else on his team. It wasn't a great Cavs team. It came down to the Celtics.

What did they shoot from three? Remember that was like the weekend of everybody on Houston and Boston just missed 100,000 threes. But that was sitting there to be stolen. This one wasn't a steal. 31.3% in that series. Just looked it up.

In game seven, they were like probably something like seven for 44. It was was something that bad. Seven for 39. You were close. Seven for 39. Yeah. I think one guy made five of them.

Smart was one for 10. Yeah. Jalen was bad. Rogier was like what? Rogier was two for 14. O at 10 from three. O and 10. I mean, and they almost won the game.

I know. Because remember the Tatum dunk? The Tatum dunk was going to be like the thing from it. And then LeBron was, you know, because they won. LeBron was even laughing about it.

He's like, that guy got me. Where if Boston pulled that out, you know, then they would have gotten absolutely smoked by Golden State. Last thought,

if the Heat do get to a finals, what's the over-under on Heat culture, stories, podcasts, features? Is this just, we're going to suffocate

in the Heat culture earthquake? What happens? We got a little sampling of it tonight with Dwayne Wade with the emergency feel better phone call. So, that was,

you think that was it? That was Heat culture right there? Dwayne Wade's like, I know I work for the jazz now but I need I need to dip back and put my heat culture t-shirt on side project

KFC do you believe in heat culture yeah I believe I believe in it in the sense that they bring they bring in a certain type of player who is not afraid in this situation not not not unafraid tough yeah I mean I think that's that's the type of person you're targeting to bring who is not afraid in this situation. Yeah, not unafraid, tough. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's the type of person you're targeting to bring into your organization. They're different than, you know, we're bringing in, you know, you just mentioned our signing earlier, Bill. Right. I do think it's a ringer culture. It's just easy to make fun of when they lose.

Well, like, we all just want to say when they're losing, use more heat culture or like game five when everybody's leaving and they had a they made a run again and everybody was gone. So, yeah, I mean, these are real things and fans can get pissed about it. I believe in Spoh half, the crowd's going ape shit. And Struis hits a three. It's coming through the TV. It's Struis over and over again. Just when you think he's dead, he comes back like Jason Voorhees.

All right, predictions? What do you got, Marcelo? I'm going to stay the way I've stayed the whole time. To me, Boston's a better basketball team and they'll find a way because they had a play tonight. Even though I think this is a bad loss, there's no matching being up a game and having another one. I think the Heat played that way knowing they were going home and I don't think Boston did play that way. I expect Boston to have a little bit more to them. I'd like to not see

late December offense late in the game like we saw tonight though because that was a little scary. KFC? I'm with Ryan there, though I would add, if Robert Williams is part of that game. Without Robert Williams, I don't feel a lot of confidence in Boston. What about Hero? What if Hero comes back? Do we know what's going on there with the groin? I mean, groins

suck. It's pretty tough to turn the groin injury around in five days. I'm with KOC. If there's no Robert Williams in game seven, they're going to have to play Tice. He's just going to have to play. And I actually thought he should have maybe played

in the fourth quarter a little bit. But if Robert Williams plays, feel good about the Celtics because they've been able to respond over and over again. And again, they've been an amazing road team. Borderline historic. You know? And in some ways, I almost feel more comfortable with them on the road. So, I would lean

toward the Celts, but if Williams isn't playing and it comes out smart and still having trouble with the ankle, I would get super concerned. Priscilla will be hitting all of it on this podcast on Sunday night after game seven

Boston Miami KFC I'm sure you'll be doing some sort of social media I don't know what you're capable of Sunday night what is it I mean I know I'll be on Instagram green screen I don't know what you're doing no idea what I got planned I know I'm writing an article for Monday

talk with Chris Ryan about that today. And then Tuesday, Mismatch with Chris Vernon. Okay. This podcast was produced by Jesse Lopez. If you see my dad tomorrow on the streets of Boston, just give him a wide berth. We'll see you on Sunday. On the wayside, never on the side I don't have feelings within On the wayside, on the wayside, never on the side

I don't have feelings within