The Bill Simmons Podcast - Talking Basketball and Life With Stephen A. Smith

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN's Stephen A. Smith to discuss balancing the workload during the NBA season, Stephen's departure from ESPN in 2009, 'First Take,' the parameters of athlete criticism, Damian Lillard's quest to play in Miami, the state of the Knicks, and much more! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Stephen A. Smith Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, an hour with Stephen A. Smith. That's next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home

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available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where we put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. It was courtroom month. We did a time to kill. It was me and Wesley Morris. So go check that out if you missed it. Coming up on this podcast, Stephen A. Smith. He has a podcast for himself. It is called the Stephen A. Smith Podcast. Good title. He also is on ESPN. He has a book that he wrote

a few months ago. It's called Straight Shooter if you missed it. And we're going to talk about ESPN and First Take and basketball and Dame Lord and the Knicks and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's all next. First, our friends from Pro Gym. We are taping this late Tuesday morning in Los Angeles. Stephen A. Smith is here.

He's been on vacation. What's a vacation like for you? You're on air all the time talking to all these different shows and platforms, and then it just shuts down as real NBA stuff's happening. So what are you doing? It depends on what mood I'm in. Usually every year I go to an undisclosed tropical location. My family's from the Virgin Islands. And so because of that,

say from St. Thomas, St. Corn, Antigua. And so because of that, I'm always in the islands at least once a year. Recently, I've been going to Europe once a year as well. So it just, and the one beautiful thing for me, Bill, about being successful to some degree is that, you know how you got to plan, plan, plan vacations. I don't plan vacations.

I literally, it's like, okay, this is the mood that I'm in. And right now, like five days before you, this is where I'm going. And that's how I... You're basically just saying you're single is what's really happening with that. I am, but that's not really it for me. It's like there are places that I can go. It's just that you never know

what you're going to be in the mood for. And to me, it's a waste of vacation if you're not in the mood for something and then you spend your money on vacation and you're not in the mood for that. That's not your money on vacation and you're not in the mood for that. That's not me. All right. So you're at this nice hotel.

NBA shit breaks down. You just got to be conditioned to talk to somebody. Like, all right, the bartender. Let's go. Dave Miller, 10 minutes. How do you shut it off? You know what? I don't.

I mean, I live what I do to some degree. I mean, you know, I grew up loving sports. I grew up loving the games, loving the athletes, loving the coaches, just loving so many of the components that come with the game. And to me, my attitude is this. I didn't have the skills that the people that are participants in the sport have, because obviously if I did, then I would be there. So the least that I could do is work my ass off so I can make sure everybody knows that I earn whatever I get, that nothing is given to me and I put in that work. And it's helped me immensely because what happens is that along the way, it's not just the athletes and the people in the sports fraternity

who appreciate it, but the pundits, the reporters and everybody who covers it. You know, there's no jealousy. There's no envy. I look at everybody and I'm like this, man, I'm happy for them. Because when they put in that work, you know what? First of all, they deserve it. They've earned it. And secondly, they're setting an example to follow. You know, somebody like yourself. I look at that, to be honest with you, I didn't see you on the come out. I was in the industry. All of a sudden, here comes Bill Simmons on the scene. He's producing doctor series and grades out 30 to 30. You got Grantland at the time and all of this other stuff. I'm like, what the hell is this? You're looking and you're watching. You're saying, wait a minute, he's ahead of the curve. He's seeing stuff before it happens and really,

really showing us the way. That's not something to be resentful for. That's something to be grateful for. How much is too much for you? Because there were stretches for you, especially during the basketball playoffs. You're on first take every day. Yeah. They're throwing you on SportsCenter. Yeah. You're

doing your podcast, The Stephen Smith Show, which the people watching this can see behind you. Yeah. And then you're the people watching this can see behind you. Then you're also on Countdown. Do you ever worry about a tipping point with you? No, no, no. The tipping point arrived this year for the first time, believe it or not. It wasn't because of the work. Excuse me, I was working

out, so I was sweating. Yeah, I got you. You got that sweat. The tipping point for the first time arrived this year. I'm not one of those guys, Bill, where, you know, it's SportsCenter, it's Countdown, it's First Take. That doesn't faze me at all. I can do those things and it's not a problem. It's the time in between. First Take's at 10 a.m.

I'm waking up at 7 a.m. to prepare for First Take at 10 a.m. You see what I'm saying? You get off of that and then you're doing countdown at night. And you know this just as well as I do because you used to do countdown. So you're doing countdown and I love the show. You're doing the show from 7 to 7.30,

but then you're sticking around from 7.30 damn near till midnight to come on at halftime of each game. And so you're sitting around for like four or five hours to do three minutes of television after you're on television all morning and some of the afternoon. That was too much. For the first time in my career, it was like I went to the bosses and I was like, yo, I can't, you know, I can't do this. Not this. You know, I can, you know, first take sports. And I mean, that's a given. But to spend so many hours in the afternoon after you spent so many hours in the morning on a job, that was definitely a tipping point for me.

And then, to be honest with you, you know, my daughters jumped all up in me and they were like, wait a minute now, you know, where you at? We usually we usually go out to dinner. Where you been? What about our movie date? Stuff like that. And so all of a sudden you start looking at that and you're like, wait a minute now. Okay. Now I got to reel it in a little bit and make sure I carve out some time for me. And that's what I'm going to do this upcoming season. I hit that point the two years I was doing Countdown. I was doing too much

and it was too much of the day every day. And I started to feel like I wasn't doing anything at the level I wanted to. But countdown's weird because if you're watching it from afar, it's not that much time, right? You're on like, it's either a half hour or an hour before with commercials and then halftime, that's not that long. And then after the game, but the problem for me, and this was not a problem, it's probably not a problem for you. Definitely wasn't a problem for Magic because I was like

in awe of Magic watching him that one season where you could just turn the switch on and have the energy again. Yeah. I would have the energy for the pregame show. And then I'd be like, I'd be like a fighter. I'd be wiped. And then it'd be an hour would pass.

And then I'm like, no, we got to go back on. And then you're back on TV and you got to be on again. Then it fades off again. An hour passes. And then you got to be on again after. And I'm just not naturally wired like that. Like I got to be on again. Then it fades off again. An hour passes and then you got to be on again after. I'm just not naturally wired

like that. Whereas Magic, that's what he does all day. The guy doesn't sleep. He's around people. It was slightly different for me than that. If we had the time at ESPN to have a post

game show like TNT does, I would have been hyped and wired for that. What happens is that once you do countdown, you recognize the fact that over the next three, I'm sorry, four to four and a half or five hours, you're going to be lucky if you get eight minutes of airtime.

Oh, that used to drive me crazy. And so that is, again, it's nobody's fault. I mean, you got the TV contract, you got to play the games and this is what you have. This is the television real estate that you have available to you. It's nobody's fault. I'm just simply saying that when you are a guy that comes on TV as much as I do, I'm a person that when the lights come on, I'm ready. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know what happens to me. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. But when those lights come on, it doesn't matter how tired I am. It doesn't matter how sick I am. It doesn't matter what the situation is i'm ready to perform

and so for me you know when you have to step back and you're so limited and you got to remember i'm kind of spoiled because first take is two hours and it's basically my show and so i i you know i get to talk a lot on first take but it's continuous Yes. And to go from that to just the limitations in the post game. I'm sorry, halftimes and stuff like that. It was a challenge for me, but it was mainly because of the obligations that I had

throughout the day, which I thoroughly enjoyed more so than anything else. I hated the halftimes when I did it. It just wasn't enough time and it just ends up, everyone says a point, it goes to the next person. Nobody's having a conversation. And the post game,

like to me, that's the whole reason to have the show is this game just happened. What'd you think? And a lot of times with ESPN, they'll just throw it right

to SportsCenter or they'll do whatever. And it's like that, you just flew us here to this location. Like, let us talk about what just happened. They would let us do it sometimes.

And I liked that part. Cause sometimes, I mean, sometimes, you know, you recognize that you're not wrong. It's just that you understand where you're working and you understand totally different.

Everybody has different, you know, they've got different contractual obligations and those things happen beyond it. And it pays the bill. So you understand from a business standpoint, from the standpoint of a performer, you're ready to go. You're ready to go

and you want that airtime. And I only say all of this to say that my attitude about it would have been totally different if there was a post-game show like the television real estate that TNT has with their post-game. If that happened,

man, I would have had a totally different energy about it. I still think that it would have been a lot to take because of my obligations to first take in the morning. But nevertheless, I still would have, I would have been incentivized to be even more pumped up instead of dying down because the evening is coming to an end, you know? So how much sleep are you getting at this point? Because doing that morning show is crazy coming

off the couch. I'm actually getting more sleep now than I used to. I've been plagued with sleep apnea for years. Oh, shit. I didn't even know that. Oh, yeah, man. I would tell you from... Tom, I'm 55 years old. And I would tell you from the time I was 20, I didn't get my sleep apnea treated until like five years ago. And so all of those years, I would wake up dragging, but I would just push myself through, push myself through. And that's why it's so important when we talk to, when we talk to youngsters on a come up, both you, myself you myself and others and we talk to them we highlight the difference between a job and a career a job is doing what you want to do pays the doing what you have to do rather pays the bill helps sustain or elevates your your quality of life but a career is doing what you want to do and it just so happens to do those things and i have a career and because i have a career and i love what i do and i'm

enthusiastic about what I do every day, I would wake up and even though it was a struggle to get out of bed, once I'm up, I'm up. But I plow through and then I would literally just collapse at night, get about three hours, four hours sleep for years, decades. And that was that. And then ultimately you felt like it was wearing on you. And then what happened is I got my sleep apnea dress, got that CPAP machine

to take some supplements to help me sleep a bit better. And the combination of the two, I wake up in the morning, I got my energy, I make sure I get a strong, at least five to six hours sleep. And I'm ready to go. I had no idea. I mean, I make sure I get a strong at least five to six hours sleep and I'm ready to go.

I had no idea. I know some people that had the sleep apnea and it's like really, really debilitating. Yeah, it is. It can be. Mine wasn't as bad as some of the worst cases, but it was bad enough and it's scary once they teach you about

it because now the tongue collapses and it blocks the breathing passage and you're not getting enough oxygen to the brain. You hear all of this stuff and you're like, what the hell's been going on? That's what I've been going through. And, you know, when you put it when they put it in that kind of perspective, you recognize that change has to be made because what good is it being successful and achieving all of these things? And you can't enjoy it because your health sucks. That makes no sense. One of the things I've noticed with you, like you were at ESPN, then you didn't totally

leave, but did you actually totally leave at one point? I guess you did for like- Yeah, I was going from 2009. They let me go with the contract dispute. I was going from 2009 to 2011. Man, it didn't feel like you were gone that long. Then you came back. It felt for me like that.

Those two years, what did you do? Like, what were you? Well, first of all, I was unemployed the first year. Completely unemployed. Nobody would hire me. Nobody, not even TV, one of BET. No one wanted me. And I mean, no one.

And I had to, you know, as I wrote my book, Straight Shooter, which I'm blessed that it became a bestseller. I just highlighted what a rough, rough road it was. And, you know, I was real, I was bitter initially because I was like, how the hell I go? I mean, I'm doing Countdown, I'm doing SportsCenter, I'm doing Raid, I'm doing, how the hell I go from four different jobs to zero? And I really felt railroaded and blackballed. And then my mother called me on the carpet and she was like, well, you don't look at yourself. What'd you do? What kind of person were you? How did you treat people? How did you act? You know, I know you're outspoken and you speak your mind and stuff like that. She said, but you know, what boss wants somebody like

that? You know, that's a headache. She said, what happened to you being solution oriented? And she really, she really checked me, checked me big time. And then about a month later or so, George Voternheim, the former president called me into his office and, uh, went to see how I was doing and explained to me that, you know, you had your feelings, other people's had theirs. He said, I didn't want you going, but true, true leaders defer to the subordinates that they have in place, essentially. And he said, but I want you to know that this this this book is not closed. And there's an opportunity that you'll be back someday. you're working at ESPN and you didn't pull a Bill Simmons where you are, you accomplish multiple so having that fear, going through what I went through is something that I hold on to all the time because no matter how much success that I've achieved now and what I've positioned myself to achieve in the future, there is not one single day that goes by that I don't remember

when I was unemployed and people was writing my epitaph and saying I was finished. I will never forget that feeling. And that's part of the reason why I work. I work like I'm broke because I never assume I rock. Yeah. You know, and I'm watching it from afar and I identify with so much of it because, you know, it took me forever to get to ESPN and just to even have some success. And then at the end of that first decade in the 2000s, when I had a chance to start doing more stuff and started to get momentum and you just want to grab everything because you're like, I don't know if this is ever going to happen again. Sure. I'll try that. I'll try that.

I'll try that. And you become conditioned. And that was where I felt like I had a tipping point that 2013-14 range where I was doing too many things. But what you just said about when you remember that feeling, I felt that after my HBO show got canceled and there were people like, it's over.

I'm like, it's over. I'm in my mid-40s. I don't feel like this is over. I remember that so much, man, because when you lost the HBO show, people were coming up to me and, you know, yeah, he's gone. You saw what happened to him, good for him.

And I'm like, who the hell are you talking to? I'm like, what, am I supposed to be happy about that? I said, what does he do to y'all? I said, he comes out there, he works his ass off. He does everything that he can to be successful. I mean, tip your cap to him. If he's more creative, he's more creative. If he's more creative, he's more creative. He's more innovative, he's more innovative. He's better, he's better. You know, me personally, I think in front of the camera, I think that I can beat

anybody. I think that, you know, I see myself as second fiddle to not a single soul on this planet in front of the camera. But there's so much more that comes to the business that we're in that extends far beyond that. And in that regard, people like yourself, Jim Rome before you, Joe Rogan since, and so many others, there is nothing but admiration and respect for all of y'all. And by the way, to some degree, we could all be considered competition. So what? Those senators get yours. All of y'all get yours. I'm going to try to get mine. I'm not rooting against anybody. I'm just rooting for myself. But it's amazing. And you know this better than most. There's a lot of people that rooted against you. They still root against you. There's a lot of

people that root against me. They wish we were enemies. They wish that some of the folks supposedly at the top of the heat were enemies. Well, guess what? When you're really at the top, you know that that's wasted energy. You should be rooting for other people to succeed. You just should be rooting for yourself to succeed too. I mean, that's a great way to put it.

My whole thing is, I only worry about what I'm doing and the people that are around me and trying to help people succeed. And I don't really care what anyone else is doing. There I'm doing and the people that are around me and trying to help people succeed. And I don't really care what anyone else is doing. There's always going to be people that are succeeding. You're always going to have competition, but that doesn't mean it should affect how you think.

Yeah. And you got to be in this business. You got to be, some people, let's call it what it is, Bill. Some people don't belong in this business. They can't take it. Simply because they can't take it. They can't take the criticism. They can't take the heat. So they want to be in front They can't take the criticism. They can't take the heat.

So they want to be in front of a microphone. They want to have a camera in front of them. And they want to call people to the carpet. And they want to say stuff. And they want to bloviate and all of this. But they can't take it when pushback arrives with validity and substance. They can't take it. I'm like, wait a minute.

I never lose a debate. I either win or I learn from somebody that did better. You know, I'm getting better and better every day because I know I'm not the best. You know, I'm constantly striving to get there. And so for me, you know, when when when folks when you got some folks in this business and I just look at them sometimes, they can't take a shred of criticism. And I'm looking at them, what are you doing here? What are you doing here? You can't take it. You're not built for this.

You're not made for this. You need to go find something else to do. And they don't want to do it strictly because of the money. And when that's the case, I'm like, that's why you ain't winning. Because you're in it just for the money. I want to get paid, but I'm in it to be great. I'm in it because I love doing it. And I want to get paid in the process. That's not why I'm in it to be great. I'm in it because I love doing it and I want to get

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So first take, you had an evolution with this show and watching, you know, different guests. You've had some really compelling arguments. It's gone to some dark places a couple of times. The way ESPN kind of pumps the stuff out on social, it seems like you almost get rewarded sometimes. Not you, but other people on the show. Kind of the crazier the take is, sometimes that's the one that hits the hardest.

The stuff with Perkins and JJ and the Jokic and Bede debate, which I thought was one of my least favorite NBA subplots probably the last 20 years and certainly one of the worst media subplots. As you look back at that whole stretch, do you wish things had unfolded differently? Do you feel like that's just the outcome of the show where there's going to be tough conversations like that?

Are you asking me about JJ and Perk or overall is what I'm asking? The narrative coming out, Perk, his job is to try to provoke on a show like that. He's trying to provoke conversation about, all right, why is Jokic going to win a third straight MVP? Why isn't it Embiid? And starts listing MVPs back to 1990.

Why are 80% of the voters white and stuff like that? And all of a sudden the debate turned. And as that's happening, how are you, because it's your show, you're in control of it. And then you're watching JJ, who's really mad about it. And he's bringing his stuff and they're starting to really go at it. But this is your show.

Like it's your house. People, these are your guests that have been invited over. What's your role in that? And do you feel like that can go too far? That's a great question. First of all, it can't go too far. Secondly, in that particular show, it did go too far. I thought both of them were wrong

to a degree in terms of how far it went. Because on one hand, I thought, see, you gotta remember Perkins had said what he said days earlier. J.J. wasn't on the show. And so what happens is me being now the executive producer

of the show, not just the main talent on the show, I so what happens is me being now the executive producer of the show, not just the main talent on the show, I saw that days earlier. I understood where Perk was coming from, but if you recall, I was debating against him when he had initially said it, and I disagreed with him. I said, that has nothing to do with it. That's not true.

But I didn't know the amount of white voters compared to black voters or whatever. I just said, that has nothing to do with it. Yolk is your ball. This is what he brings to the table. I've never heard anybody saying that he's stat chasing or anything like that. Never. I cover the league.

It's never, I've never heard that, Burke, right? But I also have to take this into consideration. If Bill Simmons were to come on first tape, no one comes on first tape without coming through me. I'm the person that everybody comes to. Now, Pete McConville and Tom D'Cordio are now there. James Dunn is a producer as well. They do an exceptional job. Dave Roberts

oversees it. Obviously, I answer to him. We all answer to him. But they all defer to me. It's your house. You're inviting people to the table. So everybody I brought on the show, this is what I demand from them. Be your true authentic self.

Don't come on here with no phony shit. Don't have me. Don't have me or our audience looking at you and thinking you're faking something or you're saying something for just effect. You need to feel it. Here's where it gets tricky, Bill. What happens is sometimes in the heat of a debate, you're saying something and then you catch us like, oh, shit, what did I just say?

I really didn't mean to go there. Right. And so I stopped it by saying, Bert, there's no truth to that. This is not what's said about your pitch. He's not stat chasing. People ain't looking at him, et cetera. Yeah, sure, you got voters that have their preferences, white, black, and otherwise, and they may not have anything to do with race. Might have something to do with something else, but everybody's got their preferences to some degree. We understand that, but I think you're walking down the wrong road here, and I left it at that. What I didn't know was the fury that, at least it appeared to be fury

to me, that J.J. Reddick was feeling over the subject. And so when he came on, on one hand, I understood how or why he felt the way he felt rather because of what Kirk had said. On the other hand, I was

saying, J.J., this is your colleague, you know, on the show. And if you feel that way, did you have to come at him like that? You know, because it did get uncomfortable. Now, we argued about a point because Skip Bayless and I used to argue or Max and I used to argue or anybody that you see on the show would argue. We're arguing over the subject matter that we're talking about. And that's that. What's up, man?

See you later. Good job. You'll see me the minute we go to commercial break. Way to go, bro. No problem. No matter how heated it got because it was on the subject. JJ and Kendrick made it appear like it was about them. And that's when I knew it was bad and I stepped in.

I said, all right, guys. All right. Cool out. One point after another. Make your point. Let's move on. But stepped in. I said, all right, guys. All right, cool out. One point after another. Make your point. Let's move on. But it wasn't comfortable. You're right about that.

And it hasn't happened again because we spoke to both of them about this. Have they been on the show together since, right? Yes. Yes. Okay. No problem. No problem.

Yeah, I think, you know, the most uncomfortable I've seen, and this was a long time ago when Jalen went at Skip Bayless that time about how many points. And Jalen, he had real reasons to do it, right? Yes. And he felt really strongly about it. He was tired of certain things and he just did it.

And it was super uncomfortable. And at the time I told Skip, because I wasn't on the show at that time. I came on like months later. Yeah. I wasn't on the show at that time. I came on months later. I wasn't on the show at that time. Obviously, Skip and Jalen's relationship hadn't been the same since. I was like, yo, Skip, game at him. He came back. I mean, fair is fair. Now, he might not have needed to go that far and not get it, but we also got to know our place. Like, for example, Skip has been a journalist for decades before becoming a columnist and working in Chicago and LA and

Dallas and all of these other places, right? That's your lane. You know, Bill Simmons knows basketball. I know basketball. We ain't Jalen Rose. You know basketball we ain't jaylen rose you know we're not a member of the fab five with a 13 year career in the nba and so you know when you're talking about the game and you're trying to compare on court significance well i know that i wasn't on the level of jalen Burroughs. And Skip at the time should have known that too.

And the argument should have been about what you know about this business as opposed to players themselves as if you were one when that was not the case. That's all. And I think that a lot of times when we're arguing with athletes, one of the reasons you see a lot of athletes on the air, you notice they're laughing a lot and they're smiling a lot when they're talking to me because they know, Bill, I know I'm not them. I'm not trying to come at them as if I know what they know about every little nuance because that's impossible. But I can say as a person who's been a journalist, this is the perspective that I'm coming from. Imagine me walking into the locker room and confronting you as a scribe, as a pundit.

How would you react if I came at you with these questions or these perspectives? And so they recognize that it just it makes it makes for better conversation because they don't feel challenged as if you're diminishing them in what they've accomplished. And I think that's incredibly important to do. Well, I remember, I think you were on the show when Richard Sherman came on that time and went at Skip and it was kind of promoted. That got me suspended from Twitter

because I saw it and I was like, I feel like this is not elevating the company. This is angry. I don't like it. So I did like two tweets about it and I was like, I feel like this is not elevating the company. This is angry. I don't like it. So I did like two tweets about it and they were like, you can't tweet about another ESPN show, you moron. And they suspended me from Twitter. And I was like, you're right.

I actually shouldn't have said anything. I will tell you this. Here's where I think that that thinking that you just expressed about Richard Sherman doing that on the show is wrong. Yeah. expressed about Richard Sherman doing that on the show is wrong. If an athlete listens to me or you, and we constantly call them on the call,

they have a right to get fed up one day and come on the air and call us out. So, of course it wasn't a good look. Of course it wasn't a good thing. But my argument to, to,

to John Skipper at the time, who was the boss and Norby Williamson and others of the world, my argument to them was that, but it's still necessary because even though that wasn't a good look, what was good is that we made sure to not edit out what an athlete had to say about us since we talked about them because a lot of times with athletes what will piss them off more than anything is what we call the bully pulpit we have it and a lot of times they didn't or they don't and because of that it's like wait a minute it's not right if you're gonna do it then take it i

had an athlete come up to me last year and pat me on the back and was like this. I just want to say, I want to see if you got that same smoke in front of my face that you have on television. And I looked at him and I said, I'm standing here, who the hell you think you're talking to? I meant what the hell I said on TV. You need me to

say it again? You see what I'm saying? Now, I wasn't trying to disrespect him, but what I was trying to say is, ain't no act. I said it. I meant it. I stand on it. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. Show me why I'm wrong. But don't think that you're going to intimidate me just because you're coming up in my face. I'm not scared of that. I said what I said and I meant what I meant. And I think that's important to be able to do. And I think it's important to be able to do and I think it's important to be able to allow an athlete to do the same to you. Well, you also had the experience

of you actually covered basketball teams and went in the locker room and dealt with people that you wrote about. So you're used to confronting. And for me, it's like, look, sometimes I always think when, especially as I get older, if I'm critical of somebody,

I try to be critical to what it's about performance and what I see and the stuff that I don't like, like the stuff Kyrie Irving has done, the stuff that James Harden who's just like I don't like it anymore, I'm just going to

tank my situation until I can force a trade I'm always going to call that stuff out I think it gets a little dicier when you're just, you know, criticizing somebody because they sucked in a playoff series. Like the Ben Simmons thing was really interesting to talk about

because we didn't know what was going on with that dude. Right. You know, is this all, is he making this shit up because he just doesn't want to play with Philly? Is he really going through something? And I think it became hard

for all of us to talk about because fundamentally, if somebody is just like, I know I'm getting paid, but I don't want to play here anymore. You got to trade me. I'm not even going to show up. I just fundamentally don't agree with that. Well, for me, it was never hard for me to discuss.

I spoke to Ben Simmons. We talked face to face. He approached me and he was talking about, man, you're killing me. I said, stop. What did I say? Since you want to say I'm killing you, what exactly is it that I said that's killing me? He said, you say there ain't no excuse for me not to be playing. I said, you damn right. Right. I said, you know why? I said, because you don't hesitate to cash the check. I said, somehow, some way you psyched out and you can't step on a basketball court, but not psyched out enough to make sure the money's in your bank account.

I said, come on, bro. You can't do that. I said, I'm not trying to say that you're lying, that you're making it up, but in the same breath, you do have a responsibility if you go snatch the bag. And if you're somebody that, let's just say, for example, somebody says, I can't take it, Bill. I just can't do this no more. I retire. Andrew Luck. No problem. We're not standing behind center. We're not taking blindside hits or non-blindside hits. We're not doing that. He is. And the punishment that he was absorbing was too much for him. He walked away.

He said, keep your money. I can't do this. That I have to respect. But when you are saying, I can't play, but you're still checking every week to make sure your money's in that paper cash. I'm sorry, it's a different animal. And then fighting to get the money back for the practices that you missed. No, no, I'm going to need that $20 million

back. Which is what he did at Philly. It felt like you flipped a little on Kyrie Irving. You were really hard on him and then now, I don't think you're a defender of him but you're i think way more fair than i am it's just over it's just over bill how much more is there to say i didn't retract anything that i said but it does get to a point where okay i've said enough

and because i've said enough i mean i i've i've lamb in him on numerous occasions for the situations he's found himself in, for him being what I deem to be a bit snobbish at the time. Like he's above the fray and so many everybody else are peons and we're so beneath him and stuff like that. It pissed me off that he was like that. But in the same breath, you do get to a point where you're like, okay, I made my point. Now what? Now it's like, okay, you,

you, you, you, you got your contract with Dallas. You're playing in the NBA. The bottom line is we're all happier when you're on the basketball court. Let's see you do one normal year. Do you have one normal year in you,

Kyrie? Can you just go? Yeah. How about that? How about, how about one six month stretch where you just play basketball and we don't hear about anything else? Absolutely. Absolutely. And the walk

around, like, one of the things that, and this was where he also really irritated me at the time. You know, there's so many things more important than basketball. Who doesn't know that? Who even implied that that is not true? What we're saying is that

that doesn't absolve you from your responsibility that you signed up for and swore to honor and commit yourself to. And if you deviate from that, folks have a right to say, nah, we ain't trying to hear that. It's not that there aren't more, there aren't things more important than basketball, but that doesn't absolve you from your responsibilities. You have a life. I have a life. Well,

guess what? I got first take. You have Spotify. You've got your whole network thing going on with all the great things that you've been doing. I'm doing my own podcast and I'm building every single day. I don't get to sit up there and say, well,

you know what? Times are hard. And you know, um, it's just not that important. So I'm not going to show up while still expecting people out there to support me. I don't need to do that. I have to actually show up and earn the support. And I'm saying that kind of thinking is applicable to anybody in their chosen profession. Nobody forced you. You signed

up to do this. So do your job. But you do get to a point again where you can only say do your job in so many times. I will say the one thing that's different in 2023 is because everybody has Instagram, Twitter, all these different places. If they feel like they're being misrepresented or talked about incorrectly, they can fire back. Sure. In 1999, you didn't really have that. Right, right. And in general, I think people were way more anti-player 20 years ago than now.

I got to say, I'm a little bit stunned by the Dame lowered stuff because he took this, he signed that two-year extension. Yeah. Right? So now he's getting paid

through age 37. He's going to make $ make 120 million the last two years yeah and like let's say he blows out his achilles tomorrow guess what he still gets all the checks but then they get scoot henderson falls in their laps he's gonna be a star and portland's like all right well maybe you know maybe we're a little more receptive to the the trade dame thing and then he's like i only want to go to Miami. What surprised me compared to what we grew up with, and we're around the same age with sports,

is just about everybody is like, yeah, they got to trade to Miami. He's done such a good job in Portland. They owe it to him. It's like, do they? Do they owe it to him to send him to his handpicked team and get $0.35 on the dollar for what he's worth? I think they owe it to him to send him to his handpicked team and get 35 cents on the dollar for what he's worth?

I think they owe it to him, but I wouldn't say for 35 cents on a dollar. Um, but I will tell you this. I look at it a little bit differently. Okay. What James Harden has done in Houston and in Brooklyn is not good. It's indefensible.

Okay. It's indefensible. Um, what situations Kyrie, when he did in Boston, when he did in Brooklyn, It's not good. It's indefensible. Okay, it's indefensible. What situations Kyrie, what he did in Boston, what he did in Brooklyn, indefensible. Indefensible. I don't give a shit what anybody says. It's indefensible.

Damian Lillard is a different act. Because first of all, when you have the kind of relationship that he has with the organization, it's entirely plausible, Bill, and you know this, that he could have sat there and said, yeah, this is where I can get the most money and I want to be here. But if I decide that I want to move on in a couple of years or whatever,

be cool with that because that's where I'm at. That's where I may be. It's entirely plausible that they said, we'll work it out. We'll make something work for you. But right now, we want you here. And he said, okay. Remember, this is 11 complete seasons that he's been in Portland. I'm somebody that knows Dane personally. I've spoken to him on many occasions. Bill, I have

personally begged this man for years to come to New York, to demand the trade to New York next. I wanted a New York uniform so bad I couldn't even tell you. I mean, I was unapologetic about it. I said, man, get the hell out of the Portland market, get to the New York market, get on a big stage daytime, wave goodbye to people after you've sent them home for the... I said, I want to see that in New York, come to New York. And religiously, man, I love it here in Portland, bro. He's like the KG Minnesota thing.

He was like this generation. Exactly that way. And what did KG, you know this better than me, what did KG say during this Hall of Fame speech? One of his biggest regrets was that he waited too long. He definitely did. He waited too long. Damian

Lillard very well may have gotten to that point. And so to me, if you're Portland, he's been there with you for 11 years. He's a pillar of the community. The community loves him.

You know he never wanted to leave. I mean, it's like pulling teeth to get him to even think about it for years and years and years. And finally, he says, okay, I think it's time. And they losing their damn mind because he said Miami.

It's like, wait a minute. Work it out. Work it out. You know, remember, you asked Dame to sit games this past season because you wanted to position yourself for the one beyond the sweepstakes, and you ended up getting Swoon Henderson. See, we forget the role they played in being in this position.

So I don't view Damian Lillard in a bad way at all. I talked to the Rasul about that on Sunday. I think he laid out when he had a chance to be first team all NBA, he had a chance to lead the league in scoring, all that stuff. And they were like, you know what, lay out.

We'll try to get one more pick. We'll make the trade. And I just don't think they had any idea Scoot was going to fall into their laps. And that was the game changer for them. It's like, well, we're not going to trade Scoot. We fucking hit the lottery with this. But that's one way to look at it.

Here's how I'm looking at it. So you were hoping to get one to you. Yeah, but you got like a one and 12 shot. But what I'm saying is that didn't happen. But what So you were hoping to get one Yeah but you got like a one And you know What I'm saying is that didn't happen But what you got Is a guy who looks like a Prototypical

Replacement To Damian Lillard Which you weren't expecting Which should make it easier Because it's not like you're looking For them to coexist they play the same position. Then they're the same size. You don't want that. CJ McCollum

and Damian Lillard didn't work. I mean, they got to a conference finals once. Why is it one team though? That's the part that Miami doesn't have to trade. They don't want Tyler Harrow. They already have three guards. Well, what I would say to you is this, Bill. There ain't nothing wrong with identifying and asking

for what we want. Now, whether you don't get it or not remains to be seen. But if he wants to go to South Beach, then you push all you can to get to South Beach. Let me tell you something. They said, I mean, they had me laughing because I'm, as you

know, I'm a native New Yorker, born and raised in Hollis, Queens, New York. I despise the Barclays center. Despise it. I mean, there isn't an arena in America. I hate more than the Barclays center.

Okay. And here's why. Here's why. It takes you about two damn hours to get three blocks on game nights down Atlantic Avenue. And then to get in the arena with the car, you literally got, it's one way in and one way out. You got to wait, they back.

I mean, it's ridiculous. It is. I don't know why anybody would want to go to the Barclays Center. I really, really don't. Brooklyn's a great borough, but the Barclays Center is just a nightmare. And so for me, if you're Damian Lillard, you think about a quality of life. You think about everything. You've been in Portland all of this time.

Got a chance to play for Pat Riley, that coach. I got a chance to coach by the great Eric Spoelstra. Terry Sotts was a damn good coach for years, but he wasn't great. He wasn't on the level of an Eric Spoelstra. Let's stop that nonsense, okay? You look at the players that they have. You ain't going to be able to get but so much to help them. Shaden Sharpe and Scoot Henderson and them brothers ain't going to be able to get so much to help them. Shaden Sharpe and Scoot Henderson and them brothers

ain't going to be able to do it with Damian Lillard. He wants to go with Bam and Jimmy Butler, find a way to make it happen. And then if you can't make it happen after you exhaust all options, then revisit the discussion. But don't sit up there and lament, oh, he's just limiting us to one team.

Well, find out what the hell you can do to get him to that one team. He stayed with you for six years after everybody was saying he should have wanted out. He stayed. He didn't just sign a contract like James Harden did and said, I want it out.

This dude signed a contract with every intention to stay. And he's proven that because he's been there for the first decade of his career. Why can't it be Philly? I agree. I agree with that.

Can it be Minnesota? No, hell no. No, no. Could it be New Orleans? Well, if you went to New Orleans, you were igniting with C.J. McCollum. In all likelihood, you'd have to give up Zion.

Raseel and I talked on Sunday. By the way, tell Raseel I said hello. I haven't seen him in a long time, so I said hello. We were talking like, if I'm Portland and I know I have my three guards, I want to get Jalen Brown back or Brandon Ingram or Towns,

who I don't even really like that much or Paul George and some pigs. I want somebody that I can put with my guys. But Bill, you've been around long enough to know because all of those people are potentially available, you can always get a third team involved that'll take somebody. You can work it out

where all of those parts are moving, but you still end up getting some level of equitable compensation. Here's where it falls apart. Miami's like, here's our big, here's our big chess piece for this trade. Tyler Hero, the guy who got hurt in game two of round one.

We went on a run as soon as Tyler Hero got hurt. That's our big trade ship. I just don't see it. I don't see how that's enough to get Dame Lewis. I think the picks matter. I think that the combination of hero with somebody else with the picks matter. But in all likelihood, if you say it's not enough, I can't argue with that. My retort would be, well, what's been enough with Dame there for you, if you will?

You used her to sell tickets. Because you ain't winning. I agree that it's going to at least have to be a three-teamer, which gets super complicated. I still feel like Philly can get involved if they put Maxie on the table and Maxie goes to Brooklyn. I wouldn't put Maxie on the table. I'm glad you brought

that up. I'm not giving up Maxie. Maxie's 22 years old. I'm not giving up Maxie. I'm not giving him up. Maxie can ball and he has a tremendous future ahead of him. I'm not giving up Maxie. I'm not giving him up. Maxie can ball, and he has a tremendous future ahead of him. I am not giving him up for as great as Damian Lillard is, as much as I love him as a player. I'm not giving up Tyrese Maxie

in a deal for Damian Lillard. I'm not doing it. Absolutely not. I want to see what Maxie can show me without Harden there with him. Well, how about this? If I had told you a year ago the Knicks are going to sign

Jalen Brunson and the Knicks fans are going to love him so much that Damian Lillard is going to be available in a trade and the Knicks fan base is going to go, well, Jalen's not available. No thanks. What would the odds have been 12 months ago for that? Like 10 to 1?

Higher than that. Higher than that. Higher than that. Which is a testament to Jalen Brunson and the job that he's done. But it's making my point about Maxie. I'm not giving him up. I'm not giving him up. Maxie ain't been a problem. James Harden goes there.

James Harden had a stellar season. Led the league in assists. Wet the bed in the game seven. Game six and seven. Dropped two 40- point games in the series, but wet the bed game six and seven. And a lot of people thought he quit. You got to be,

once again, not 100% healthy. I'm not letting go of a 22-year-old stud that I believe can be a star. I'm not doing it. James Harden with the bed. He needs like a special mattress. I got a Knicks thing to throw at you,

but I'm going to take one more break. All right, the Knicks. I'm just going to throw this out there. Sure. I was talking on my pod a couple days ago about how we're on the clock with Giannis.

I think Giannis has one year left with this Milwaukee team to see how it goes. And if they start to look old, if Chris Middleton looks the same way

he's looked for the last two years where he's not, he can't stay on the court, he can't look like Chris Middleton from the 2021 playoffs for long stretches. Brooke Lopez is going to be in year, I think 16. I don't really trust any of their swing guys. And if he feels like I can't win a title here anymore,

I think he cares the most about titles and rings. I don't even think he really cares about markets. And I also think he'd be the kind of guy who would say with a year left, Hey, I'm going to leave in a year as a free agent. Cause he can opt out summer 2025. I'm going to leave in a year where you can trade me now. We've seen players do this in the past where they have the respect for the team and they want to put their team in a position to make a move and put themselves in a position

to win a title faster. Now we talk about the Knicks. You've been in this position before with the Knicks where there's been this big prize looming. It's like those amusement park rides. That's why I'm sitting there going like this. Yo, Bill, we supposed to be cool, man. Why are you bringing this up?

Why are you doing this to me, man? It's the amusement park ride where that thing's hanging with the claws and you're trying to hit it with the claws. You know how I get about the Knicks, man. Don't do that to me, man. I mean, listen. But I'm telling you,

I think this is where the season's going to head. Okay. Where all of a sudden the Giannis Prize is going to start hanging over this Knicks season. This is what I want to understand. You and I have talked basketball on several occasions in the past. I want you to learn something about me today. Because, first of all, I'm a like how Leon Rose hides from the public and has no accountability whatsoever.

And you make it a deal with Danny Ainge and you got Gershon Rojas on the phone speaking for you instead of yourself. Were you the president of basketball operations, which I thought was a disgrace. OK, and I respect Leon Rhodes, but I haven't respected how he's handled himself in terms of being accountable to Knicks fans, even though he's obviously done a decent job because they've been in the playoffs two or four years he's been here. Having said that, let me say this. The New York Knicks, and this is what you need to know about me. One of the biggest reasons I'm miserable is because we're the media capital of the world, we're the number one market, and this is what you need to know about me one of the biggest reasons I'm miserable is because we're the media capital of the world

we're the number one market and we can't get a star think about this our last real bona fide star one would say it's Patrick Ewing I'm going to go back to Walt Clive I would say Bernard you're not going to say Bernard for a year and a half?

Well, Bernard, but that's perpetually injured. You know I know how big Tom Bernard is. I know, but for 18 months I felt like Bernard was fantastic. You're right. Okay, fine. What I mean by that is this. I haven't had somebody arrive in New York that made me look

and say, you know what, we might win the title. I haven't had that guy. When Bernard was here, you had Magic and Bird and Isaiah and Jordan was coming and Barkley was coming and you had all of that going on.

All right? When Ewing was there, that's what was going on. When Carmelo was there, LeBron was in Miami, man. D-Wade was in Miami. I'm looking for the guy. You always had the third guy in the movie.

You always had the third guy in the movie. You never had the lead guy in the poster. Yeah. I'm looking for the guy that arrives in a New York Knicks uniform that has the city saying, we might win it. We might win it because of this guy. We don't have looking for the guy that arrives in a New York Knicks uniform that has the city saying, we, we, we,

we might win it. We might win it because of this guy. We don't have that guy, which is why I so desperately wanted KD and Kyrie to come to New York, um, to, to the Knicks. And they were coming at the 11th hour.

So Kyrie convinced KD to change his mind, go to Brooklyn. That was DeAndre Jordan's fault. You know, that story he DeAndre Jordan played on that Knicks team. He's like, you guys can't go here. This place is a mess. Go to Brooklyn. That was DeAndre Jordan's fault. You know that story. DeAndre Jordan played on that Knicks team. He's like, you guys can't go here. This place is a mess. Oh, my Lord.

That's one of the things. That's one of the things that was said. Also, it was Kyrie thinking about creating his own legacy and all of that other stuff. Okay. The bottom line is, could you imagine if Kevin Durant was in New York? And I'm talking about when Kevin Durant had that 49 point game that I predicted he dropped 50 after Kyle got hurt and he went against Milwaukee in game five and

he dropped 49 but missed 50 because he missed a free throw and I predicted that morning on first date he was going to drop 50 or a KD that showed up in game seven and stuff like that and it just couldn't happen. I mean, when's the last time that Garden had that? And that's what I'm looking for, man.

This is New York, and the stars are everywhere but New York. And that's what bought me. Jalen Brunson's a sensational player. He did a sensational job for us this year. But we all know that, you know, he's not box office himself. He can really ball. But he's not the marquee. I want a marquee, man. I want

a marquee bag with legitimate championship aspirations is what I'm talking about. So you're in this situation that I think is going to happen with Giannis, especially let's say they start out 12-8 or whatever. And everybody's going to start talking

about it. You've been in this situation, LeBron, 2010. Yeah. Um, KD that whole summer before 2016. Who, who else,

who else has been dangled? Like the, uh, like, it was, it was, it was, it was really,

it was really them. Those are the two biggest examples, no doubt. Um, but I was telling you, 2010 was devastating. Cause that was are the two biggest examples, no doubt. Because 2010 was devastating. Because that was basically two years of hoping, praying, this free agent class. Imagine how it was for me. I was fired by ESPN. I was gone.

By this time, I had started back in the business, starting for Fox Sports Radio. And I broke the story that they were going to South Beach. They were joining forces. I remember it. I made fun of it. And I was like, there's no fucking way. That's not happening.

And then it happened. And it happened, right? And so I'm sitting there and like, but in the same breath, I'm sad because even though I'm breaking the story, that means he ain't coming to New York. Yet another guy

ain't coming to New York. We have one draft pick away. One pick from getting Steph Curry and he lands at number seven and going to state. The Knicks had the eighth pick. The Zion thing.

It's either Zion or John Moran. We get the number three pick. We get RJ. That might be the best pick out of those three. We get RJ. That might be the best pick out of those three. Who knows? You might have got the best guy. It's very depressing. It's very depressing. It just drives me nuts, man.

It's hard for me to remain objective about my Knicks because I love the franchise so much. I'm a die-hard, lifelong Knicks fan, but they make me sick because I have yet to receive any joy from them at all. Well, at least they have assets now to make a move,

which has not been the case for a long time. Yeah, but how do you think I feel when you had those assets and you couldn't utilize them to get Donovan Mitchell and you didn't get him? You see what I'm saying? Oh, Danny Andrews asking for too much. Well, maybe if you hadn't gone to the playoff series

between Utah and Dallas and recruited acting like you still at Kentucky or something maybe you wouldn't have irritated Danny Angel because he's done a deal with you Dick Donovan Mitchell this is the kind of stuff that I'm talking about Bill and you have the Embiid possibilities

too if they make no trades Harden comes back he's miserable Embiid possibilities too if they make no trades Harden comes back, he's miserable Embiid's miserable that's always sitting there too I don't know about that I don't think Embiid will lead Philadelphia I think they'll do everything they can to keep him they'll clean house, they'll do what they have to do

Darryl Morey had better do something there's no question about that, they better figure it out well you know what was the biggest Knicks win of the last 10 years the idiotic Brooklyn is what was the biggest Knicks win of the last 10 years? The idiotic Brooklyn is going to replace the Knicks and watch Brooklyn. They're going to build this whole basketball thing. Listen, I've never lived in

New York in my life. I was like, that's never happening. The Knicks have like six generations of fans. Brooklyn's just going to waltz in and become the new basketball capital. What the fuck are you guys talking about? At least that's been vindicated. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant easily cost themselves about a half a billion

dollars by choosing Brooklyn over the New York Knicks. I'm talking about off-court opportunities. Off-court opportunities easily cost themselves a half a billion dollars. Easy. I would love to do KD's

career over again. With almost like a virtual reality where he could just be like, alright, just make these two different decisions and let's just see how it goes. Because, I don't know, to me, he's like, I have him 16th or 15th in my

pantheon. I thought he went toe-to-toe with LeBron when LeBron was still at his absolute prime and outplayed him in those two finals. His team was better. But LeBron's been in situations where he had better teams in finals. And now I actually feel

like he's slightly underrated. Now he's in this Phoenix thing. He's at a different point of his career. He's as old as... He's in the same draft as Jeff Green. He's going to be year 15, 16. He's not going to be the same guy he was in 2016 and 19, these different years. So I don't know.

I don't know if he missed the window. He might have. I think KD's one of the greatest players I've ever seen. Me too. And I got to revisit your list at some point because I'm not sure I have him. I don't believe I have him that well. I think I got him top 10 all the time. I don't think it's 10 offensive players in the history of the game that have been better than KD.

That's a discussion I'd like to have with you another time. But I will say this to you. It's hard to figure out which was, I'm not going to say worse, because from a basketball perspective, clearly him departing from Oklahoma City, even though he did after they lost a 3-1 lead to go to the state, then on the show, the boardroom was when people tried to use that to, to, to sustain him and act like he, she couldn't play. And I'm like,

wait a minute. This is one of the greatest. But, and I had to explain to him, I, my disgust was because your greatness collaborating with the greatness of the splash brothers, he disarrayed competition for that season.

To me, it was the one season. It madecerated competition for that season. To me, it was the one season it made no sense to watch basketball. It was like, why? Why even bother? There's no competition here. We saw LeBron James give a concession speech in Boston in Game 7 after they beat Boston because he had to go up against KD.

Oh, I don't want to think about that right now. It's just too stressful. That was a damn concession speech. So I think about things along those lines. And what I would say to you is that I think ultimately what will, unless he wins another championship, what will hurt him most is the parting Steph Curry to join Cogneau. I agree. Because that's not about basketball. That's about failing to take into account all the ancillary things. That's a basketball IQ test. Is that you can either contribute or take away from the level of success you hope to accumulate.

I think a grave mistake was made by him in that regard because you talked about wanting to play the right way. And then you ended up going to Brooklyn, which basically diluted the argument that you were trying to make in favor of you making the original decision you made about Golden State to begin with. I wish he had just gone to Washington in 2016 and played with Beale and Wall. He'd done that for three years over going to Golden State, if I had to do that part over again. Then the other part is just stay with Golden State through 2020 and when you're moving somewhere

else, do a better thing than teaming up with Kyrie Irving. I would say to you, that's hindsight and you're right. What I would say to you is that or rather it wasn't hindsight, but in hindsight looking at Steve Kerr, I don't know about you.

I think Steve Kerr's one of the top five coaches in the history of basketball. Me too. I think he's proven he's one of the top five coaches. And the coaching and the culture that exists in Golden State, led by its leader, Steph Curry, I don't think you can minimize that in any way.

And there was no way that that was going to happen in the nation's capital with Bradley Beal and John Wall. Fair. We have to go. We got to mention your podcast, which you changed the name. Yep. If we'd worked together, I would have told you, put your name in the podcast title. You finally did.

It's called The Stephen A. Smith Show. Easier for searches. Right. Well, I wasn't allowed. I mean, in negotiating with ESPN and carving out what I was able to carve out. Oh, they made you do a title? Initially, I had to do a title. Classic.

But in fairness to them, they came back, they revisited, let me change it to my name and stuff like that. Because I mean, I own and operated, they have nothing to do with it, but I had a contract with them that had to carve out the ability to be able to do those things.

And so I was waiting to do those things. If you notice, I didn't go on YouTube until January and I really didn't amp it up until three months ago. Now I'm up to about

230,000 subscribers. But it happened because there was that that minefield i had to work through to get all of that stuff done but i'm happy i'm good uh the podcast is going very well it's every monday wednesday and friday i'm live on youtube at 4 p.m i just started doing that eastern standard time 1 p.m pacific uh in the near future i'm probably going to go to five days a week for crying out loud. I love doing it. And I love not limiting myself to sports. I can talk about sports anytime I want to.

But it's not a podcast that's restricted to sports. I talk about pop culture and entertainment. I talk about politics. Even on Tuesday, I was interviewing a former New Jersey governor, Chris Christie. I'm going to interview other presidential candidates and stuff like that, other politicians. He can't be involved in the election. Okay. I love that. I'm going to interview other presidential candidates and stuff like that, other politicians. They get involved in the election. Okay. I love that. I love that stuff. So, I mean, I'm not an aficionado

by any stretch, but I love talking to people about it, and I love talking to people in the game so I can bring questions from laymen out here who are looking at them and saying, what the hell are y'all doing in the nation's capital? I love that stuff. It doesn't sound like you're slowing down. I'm not. I have no intentions to.

But I do have to pace myself. And that means going to sleep a little bit earlier and not being in the office until midnight. Fair enough. Alright. Good to see you, Steve and A. I'm glad you're doing well. Enjoy the rest of the summer. Let me know if you need me. Same to you. Make it happen. And I know I owe you dinner, so we'll make that happen soon.

Alright. I'll talk to you. Thank you. Alright. That's it for the podcast. Thanks we'll make that happen soon. All right. I'll talk to you. All right. Later. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Stephen A. Smith and thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as always. I'm going to be back on Thursday

with my last podcast of July unless anything absolutely crazy happens. So I will see you then. I don't have feelings with him on the wayside on the wayside

never I don't have feelings