The Bill Simmons Podcast - Talking Basketball, NBA, and Hoops With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the 76ers’ arduous journey to retaining their first-round draft pick, the unknown ceiling of the new-look Lakers (15:26), criticizing NBA player criticism, what it means to be the “face of the league” (32:59), biggest red flags for every NBA title contender, how the Celtics match up with the Cavaliers (01:20:18), Bill’s latest internet rabbit hole (01:55:59), and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up Sundays basketball, Rossello, you know the drill. It's next. We're also brought to you by the ringer podcast network We're having new rewatchables coming for you on Monday night. We did an Oscar winner You'll be able to watch that as a video podcast on Spotify. You can watch it on the ringer movies YouTube channel as well if you love the Oscars, this is going up before the Oscars, but Sean fantasy Amanda Dobbins will be reacting to the Oscars. I think right after the telecast. So check out the big picture for that. Um, we're also brought to you by Fandool sports book where, uh, I don't know if

you know, but we're doing these player performance doubles with Fandool two leg parlays already made for you, take an NBA player prop, combine it with a bet on that player's team to win. And starting this week, we will have a Ringer PBT on a player performance bet placed on one of the Tuesday games. Rockets, Pacers, Warriors, Knicks, Bucks, Hawks, Netspur, Clippers, Suns. I'm going to tweet out my pick on Tuesday. Stay tuned. Be sure to claim the Ringer PBT in the carousel on the FanDuel Sportsbook app.

Last thing to plug before we get to the podcast, Celtic City, the documentary series we did about the Boston Celtics. It's nine episodes over nine weeks. It is on Max and HBO. It premieres Monday night. Get ready for it. Once a week. It's old school.

You can watch an episode. You can think about it. Then the next week, another one comes on. It's almost like how they have with White Lotus. That's Celtic City. So please check that out. We spent a lot of time on it. Really proud of it.

So Celtic City, Monday, March 3rd, get ready. All right, coming up. Got a lot of weird basketball topics to talk about with Rosillo. Some big picture stuff, some alpha dog stuff in the league between the teams. Cleveland had a big Friday. We're covering it all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. We are taping this a little after 1230 Pacific time. Just watch Celtics nuggets that we're going to talk about later.

The star of shock collar too is here. Ryan Rosillo. You look great. The listeners can't hear, can't see it, but you got like, it's like an early 2000s Red Sox setup guy, Fu Manchu. Khan, look, is that a Van Dyke or a Fu Manchu? Yeah, I don't know.

I was looking at some old pictures of myself. Well, I usually break this out a couple of times a year. And I did it when I got my license, picture taken last summer. And the picture of my license picture taken last summer and the picture of my license is just horrifying and so for whatever reason I don't know I just I used to do when I was in my 20s I usually do do it every now and then so we're uh we're back. I love the board with your face moments not just you but me I have them too. Where he's just like, ah, fuck it, grow a mustache.

Didn't you do it for PTI? I did. We did mustache week, me and Levittard, we just both grew like big bushy, like buddy cop mustaches. Yeah, it's fun. Lately I've been shaving. Like that feels like a move now to be like,

yeah, I'm gonna shave like a couple times a week. Back with the shaving. Honestly, if you went clean shaving, you're just getting ahead of where this is all going. That's a couple of years because there's going to be a stretch, like anything that's whether it's fashion or hairstyles. I mean, this is not insightful. It's all cyclical, but there's going to be a stretch years from now where you're like, what the hell was going on? Everyone just had a beard. Like everybody just had a beard.

I remember being so early to the beard that I showed up to the national championship game with it when it was Oregon-Auburn and Todd McShay and Jesse Palmer on the sideline being like, you didn't shave? And I'm like, I'm at a football game. I'm not even on TV. And they're like, yeah, but dude, like you look terrible.

It is funny. So how many years ago was that? Like early 2010s range? Yeah. Mid 2010s. Cam was still in college. So it's like, I think it's 15 years ago that came. I remember between the first and second years when I was on the countdown show and

I showed up for something during the summer and I had a beard and everybody was like, you're not going to have that on TV, right? Like freaked out by it. It does feel like the beard, the beard stuff has shifted by the last, and then COVID just, it just was full bloom. COVID was kind of the apex mountain for beards. Everyone was just like, I don't care anymore.

Yeah, that cranked it up. That was really the home run PED phase of beards. We were like, Luis Gonzalez has how many home runs? Is that early 2000s? Yeah. Cause then it's a, it's a bit like the arm sleeve thing, like the early arm sleeve tack guy, you're like, all right, I don't probably don't want to mess with that guy, you know, it's like somebody who's really friendly, but they blink a lot and just go, I might want to stay away from him.

And then so overblinking is, is a fair thing for you a little bit? Yes, certain size, a guy that blinks a lot, want nothing to do with it. Never thought about that? Good tip. No, it's a good tip. Yeah, it's a good tip for everybody.

Yeah. So anyway, I think the sleeve thing turned into, I just felt like there should have been some prerequisite. Like you're gonna get double sleeves, like you're getting arm sleeves. You know, now I don't, and so I think the beard was some kind of transition off of that. I likely will never be clean shaven.

Like I cannot even remember the last time just full up lather. I don't even have shaving cream at my house. I would have a beard way more often, but mine just gets white and it actually, it used to hide some stuff. But now it's like, you actually look younger when you don't have the beard. There's been some weird phases since ever since I could shave.

I think sideburns were a really weird stretch in that 92 to 94 stage inspired by Brandon and Dylan on 902 and O. And then all of a sudden people were doing different sideburns things for like a year and a half. That was weird. We had like the high flat top look was in for a little bit. Like there's definitely been some weird stages looking back on what was going on there.

Well, the sideburns thing is again, just the cycle of, let me see how low I can bring these down and it was fine. And then everybody was like, all right, get rid of these. But I remember the first moment, I mean, I couldn't even shave. Like, who am I kidding? But the first moment guys in junior high for like travel basketball, you know, there'd be a couple early bloomers. If you know what I'm talking about, and you're just like, what the hell's this guy doing?

He's got a shaving kit and like, is this guy from Willim Manic? Like what's going on? And so then dudes who couldn't even shave, me being one of them, you just felt left out. So guys started shaving their sideburns up as high as they could. And so I was like, I'm not going toim Manek? Like, what's going on? And so then dudes who couldn't even shave, me being one of them, you just felt left out. So guys started shaving their sideburns up as high as possible. And the late 80s really-

That was a weird, I didn't like that. I hope that never comes back. But yeah, there was also, there was just a lot of chin shit in the early 2000s out of boredom. I feel like that was baseball related. Because baseball really had that big comeback in the late 90s, early 2000s, steroids driven, Yankees driven,

Yankees versus Red Sox, Bonds and the home run McGuire. And then the relievers and the home run sluggers all started having weird facial thing and it just took off. Remember Duncan tried it? Duncan had a year in the early 2000s when Duncan went with like the shaved head. A little like your look right now, but it was like, what are you doing?

You're Tim Duncan. Why are you trying this? What are you trying to look like? He almost looked like Dennis Haysbert. The white beard call is right though because now I'm at the point where if I let it go, it's patchy in areas where it's not colored and then I have buddies that are dying their beards and then I, all I can think about is Richard Kimball.

And I just think like, I don't know, man. Like I might, I might want to, like at this point, I don't know that you're necessarily hiding your age, but there are definitely dudes that when they go full beard now, I'd be like, even though you've got this salt and pepper thing, you're going way more salt and pepper and you've aged yourself so much. So, you know, I don't, I remember when cow herds contract was up, I think he had red hair and I was, well he joined FS one. He went, he went blonde for a bit.

I've never died or done anything, I just can't do it. I'm just like, if nature's taking me certain directions, so be it. It's the way it's gonna have to go. I had a really hard time having that ball patch in my head. It was just brutal. And it really, it really. Yeah, the celebrity game really shook you.

The high camera shot. Yeah, I mean, if I see John Barry to this day, it might be on. Because my buddies. Oh, he mentioned it? My buddies wanted to kill John Berry. Did he make a joke about it? He talked about it the entire fourth quarter, apparently. I can't even go back and watch the tape. It's too traumatic. Wow. I wonder if that's on the YouTubes.

Oh, it's all over the place. So my friends, I'm talking about, and again, Massachusetts friends that aren't exactly the most supportive people. Scholars have argued, they don't even argue about it. And so they were like, hey, what the fuck is up with John Berry? And I went, I don't know. Like I just get done with the game. I'm sitting here trying to ISO against Hunger Games

and I got the secretary of education telling me to calm down a little bit. And then I had to sub myself in. Which Hunger Games person? Was it a Josh or something? Oh, that little, he was smaller, right? Josh somebody? Yeah, I pushed him pretty hard at one point

because I just wasn't playing well. I'd actually had like a crack in my leg and, you know, whatever, now I'm making excuses. So were you the guy who tried too hard, Josh Hutchinson, were you the guy who tried too hard in the celebrity game? Because in my game, it was the actor Jesse Williams who just was going all out. I didn't play enough.

Like he was Russell Westbrook. I didn't, look, I shouldn't, I was not a celebrity. You know, ESPN was usually pretty good about trying to get somebody on air involved in some of that stuff. I liked it. Little cross promotion. Yeah, it was just, obviously I'd want to do it, but I clearly

wish I had gotten a play before that. Because then when I went back home to talk to buddies that I played with regularly, they're like, you're terrible now. Like we talked so much shit about like, they were like, look out, he's going to go off in this thing. And I was like, yep, I know. But then on the other side, it was a bit like when Kyrie was having his playoff run last year,

where even if he went four for 20, people would be like, his joy is back and it's unbelievable. So the threshold for a good Kyrie stretch was pretty low. And I think it was the same. And so when I got back to ESPN, people were like, oh, you played really well. And I was like, eh, not really. And then you got called bald, I guess,

for a straight hour or so. That would be a good NBA award at the end of the year that we should vote on the Joyous Back Award. Where we have to vote whose joy was the most back. Who's the joy of back winner this year? Next year, like the odds on Fandl's posting 26 odds and they're like, KD is a minus 300 favorite for the Joyous Back.

He hasn't even traded yet. Right. Because you actually have to factor in the pre-miserable. Yeah. You can't just pick somebody who's happy all the time. You have to get somebody who's a really moody dude. Yeah, that's tough. I don't know who our Joyous Back guy is.

I mean, wherever Durant ends up. I think that's the odds. For next year. It's probably off the board. Maybe it's Kyrie, maybe Kyrie. Cause the, the trade was so late last year or the turnaround was so late last year. Maybe he's grandfathered in and he's the favorite this year. I don't know.

You would have won it last year. Could there be Kyrie joy is back voter fatigue? Cause he would have won it last year. There's like a back to back Donovan Mitchell, who I don't think was completely miserable last year, but I do think has, has like an added level of joy this year. And I think he would be somebody. I would at least accept the thing. Uh, Paul George probably would be last in the voting.

He'd be the, the joy is not back. If that was an award when MB is on the other team, when they do the joy is back sit down feature for, yeah, no, it's Jimmy Butler. Oh, perfect. Yeah. Jimmy Butler's like, he had five points the other night when Steph had 56 and they interviewed him in the locker room. And he was like, just delighted. He was saying, I'm just so pleased to be here for this.

Every Jimmy Butler quote, I feel like did Aaron Sorkin write the perfect like recovery? Like every quote, it's not just one good quote. They're like 12 for 12. They're all perfect. Right. You think like, Hey, Sorkin come up with a script of this player that basically sabotaged himself, destroyed his own market value, destroyed his own free agency, like this isn't new, even if we could get into some of the debates,

which I think there's some fair criticisms of some of the Miami stuff. But I mean, ultimately it was Butler that just checked out on the whole thing. They're like, okay, but when he goes to this new team and everybody starts making threes and they win a bunch of games, like give us perfect quotes. Every quote Butler has for like two weeks has nailed it. It's one of those situations where you're like, Oh, I forgot this guy had teeth. We hadn't seen his teeth for like three years because he hadn't smiled since like 2021.

It's like, Oh, there's Jimmy Butler's teeth. They're back, uh, giving these perfect long monologue answers. And if, if I was on the heat, I'd be so pissed. You'd be like, Oh my God, really? Was that happy? Yeah. You're this happy. Steph is like this much of a joy to be with.

Apparently is. It seems that, I mean, that's another one is Steph is our joy MVP of just like, he just parcels out joy to other people. He's able to like transfer it to them. Just all you have to do is play with them and then go when everybody, this is what happens when you cut. Yeah. Like you cut and then all of this stuff is just wide open.

I mean, still even at Steph's age with this. So Butler, it was funny because we had Anthony Slater on who, you know, from the athletic, he's national, but you know, his background is the Warriors. And he made a really good point because I think anybody that knew about what was going on before the trade deadline and all the different conversations you hear, like the Warriors are a little split. Well, ultimately it matters if Lakeup are done leaving here, probably more so Lakeup because Lakeup is the one that's going to have to, as they have them void out the player option, you give them north of a hundred million bucks. And you're like, all right. You know, like I would never want to be an owner or a GM in that situation, really. The way we can take a chance here is giving Jimmy Butler a two plus,

100 million plus over the next two years. But Slater was like, whatever the internal debates were, it was what are we disrupting now? A maybe non-playing team, so who cares? And that kinda ends the argument, really, especially when you see these results. Yeah, I said on the pod right after that, it wasn't a Hail Mary.

It was somewhere between a third and nine and a third and 13, and the guys kind of covered in your throat anyway. But the odds of Jimmy Butler just going to go and stay and being good immediately were pretty high. And then the odds of him enjoying playing with Steph, that seemed pretty high. And then just watching the weight of the world

be immediately lifted off steps. This would have been a more fun segment if they hadn't gotten crushed by Philadelphia last night. The game I did not watch. Quinton Grimes went nuts. Butler didn't play. Can you believe Dallas traded Quinton Grimes? Whoa. How about can you believe Philly traded for Quinton Grimes when it was clear that they were supposed to be headed toward a tank thing. I'm intentionally not, this is not an overprepared bod because I wanted to do more back and forth stuff, not have like set segments. You've nailed it so far. Cause I didn't know we were doing this.

Yeah. There's definitely a couple big picture stuff I want to hit, but the Philly thing, which I was going to mention later, but we should talk about now. Cause we had, and Bede, there was a report yesterday, Embiid went to the owner. It felt like this week was about Philly trying to subtly pin stuff on Darryl Morey, the GM, that was something I saw on a show. Well, Darryl Morey was the one pushing

for the Embiid extension. Which, if we're gonna go down that road. Are you saying, I'm just to interject quickly. Just, are you going off of like the rumbling of like Josh Harris really was like, not sure that he wanted to do this. Yeah. Can I, can we just talking about, yeah, we have to hit this quickly because. This is absurd and I'm not going to allow it.

Ultimately, one guy owns a basketball team. And when it's that amount of money and it's that big of a decision, that guy's making the call. He's not deferring to the GM. He's not going, I don't want to do this. And that's a lot of money, but Darrell says we should. So I'm just going to do it. It's, it's not happening.

That's not how the league works. Like the reason comingo is still in the Warriors is because Joe Laker didn't want to trade comingo. There's no other reason. Joe Laker likes comingo. He wants, he doesn't want to give up on him. And that's why he wasn't part of any of those trades. The owners control the show and they're going to decide what happens. So, uh, they could pass the buck and I'm not defending Darrell because I thought, uh,

I would have rather resigned than give him beat that extension. But nobody's going to do that. There's 30 of these. No, I would have been like, listen, just can you, can we just talk by out? Cause this is the dumbest. I can't believe we're doing this. Um, but then we're now in the bus throwing stage with this Philly situation and they're in a weird spot because if they get the seventh pick and they don't end up with one of these top six picks in a draft, that's awesome. This is a catastrophic, we haven't had a season this bad for a team in 10 years.

So you would disagree with my tweet about this being the second worst thing a front office has done unless you'll allow me the leniency that I'm including ownership in that. Because you're right. I mean, nobody goes as an owner. There's so much stuff that happens with ownership, making the final calls and these things. I think even sometimes I'll forget that. Not that I don't know it, but I'd like that you're reminding us of it because- It's never happening without him saying, yes, okay, I'm in. It's three years, 192.9 million. He has a player option in three years for $70 million. He's out for the season. And then when you start hearing about breaking a bone in the leg to help recovery.

And I think there was a lot of stuff that was kind of nasty about this where. I don't, I forget who it was, but basically laid out all the options for the 76ers. Then it got turned into the 76ers are looking into the retirement exemption. If he, if he can't play again, it's like, look, we're not, we're not even there. It's like that's two we're not even there. We're two years away from that. Right. My point of the entire extension

was I remember when it happened, all I could think of is you have him, like I know there was all the Knicks stuff, but you have somebody who's basically missed half of their career, and you haven't really done anything with them. We know what the playoff regular season. Right.

So what's the rush? Also, you watch him in the Olympics. You watched him in the Olympics, not look a hundred percent. So, so if you don't sign him, you still have under contract for two years. You can't do the wait and see that. What's he going to do? Like hold out, you know, it was just, it's a catastrophic decision and it was bad. When it happened, we talked about it when it happened. We talked about it in our season preview.

What did you think just out of curiosity? What was the worst decision than, than that extension? Well, you know, Lucas on the Lakers now. Oh, fair. I thought you were, Luca's on the Lakers now. Fair. I thought you were talking off season. Yeah. Yeah, Luca's, you're right. Luca trades number one, entrenched.

I've gone to three Lakers games. Yeah, you're like, when are you buying a jersey? I'm Mr. Laker right now. Yeah, you're just going. You know, just seeing him progressively get better and better, which I know is shocking to some that he had missed two months, a big guy who weighs 270, didn't look super crisp right out of the gates. Yeah. And just seeing his progression continue and the comfort at what comes with him being comfortable, like, as soon as he starts yelling

and getting pissed off, you're like, okay, this is, this is heading in the right direction. That's why I thought that first game that he played against Utah was so funny because he was so tired. Yeah. He didn't have time for any of that stuff. And I think a lot of basketball players, even the greatest ones, they'll try to just find a way to fit in a little bit. And with Luca, it's like, we don't know. Don't try to fit in. Just go ahead and play your style, which I know we're going to do some Laker stuff because I saw your clip this week and I'm with you that the biggest compliment is that now I don't even know what the ceiling is on the possibility for this team,

which I think a lot of us thought when this trade happened, it's like, okay, that might ruin 25, but it makes all the sense in the world because now you get to reset your franchise. And now I think that conversation has shifted quite a bit here. Yeah, it's the thing he used to do in Dallas. I've been interested in why,

because I know JJ knows it. I think JJ has done a really good job this year. Luca is one of those, do I have it or not in the first quarter guys, which I think Tatum's a little bit like this too, where they'll use the first quarter to see. Steph does it all the time. Um, and I think the Lakers have already been like, yeah, you figure out in the first quarter how you are. And I've been so impressed by LeBron just kind of, all right, I'll, I'll wait and

see too, and then I'll, I'll wait and see too. And then I'll see where I fit in today. And then he always gets his stats and he's been, you know, I'm sure you saw it in person, like he's as active as he's been in a couple of years, but the defensive stuff that LeBron is doing. Cause you know, I think it's totally fair where when they're bad defensively, a lot of it, you know, there's, there's stuff that I know that we'll get into. And I don't know how much rotational Lakers stuff you want to

talk about between now and where they were, their bad defensive team, but you know, he's had ups and downs, but they're, I mean, this group where you went, Luca, Reeves, LeBron on the perimeter, now no AD behind it. Like how good can they be defensively? And they've been incredible. And I'm actually going to give a little credit

here because Greg St. Gene, who's the son of, of Gary, the longtime warriors exec, he was with the Lakers when LeBron was there before. Then he was at Dallas with Luca. Then he comes back on a JJ staff and I know him a little bit. So certainly I'm biased to be like, Hey, you doing anything tonight? And he'd be like, I'm installing our entry passes against Utah jazz. And I was like, all right, you know, he's just, he's just one of those guys.

I'll be a head coach at some point. I have this alternate pin down defense I'm working on. installing our entry passes against Utah Jazz. And it's like, all right, he's just one of those guys. He'll be a head coach at some point. I have this alternate pin down defense I'm working on. Pin down three. Yeah. We're working on a lot of side out of bounds stuff today. I think his relationship with the players, like in the fact that these two superstars have been there, I think JJ has a lot to do with it.

They're just so much more prepared as a basketball team. And there was also stuff like at one point when the record wasn't that much better, we're like, Oh, JJ read it. Cause let's face it, like most people were rooting against JJ being successful because of the background, but NBA head coaching paths are, are very non-traditional. Okay. I mean, this has been going on for 20 plus. I don't even know, maybe even longer than that. You would know better than I would how many times you're like, okay, I guess they're just going to make that guy head coach. And I remember when the records are similar, there was a bit like, Oh, well, this isn't any better than Darvin Ham. And you watch them now and how prepared they are and whether it was the Denver

game we were talking about just a week ago. This team has, has figured some stuff out on dense, uh, on defense that I just didn't think was possible. I agree. And even when you're watching them, it still feels like they have like legitimate holes. And yet collectively they've figured out how to cover up for a lot of them.

Like I still feel like the right kind of point guard can just get whatever shot they want. And then the bench, some of the bench guys that just don't trust at all, but it works. And everybody, it's like JJ said this a couple weeks ago that the biggest lesson he learned as Coach during the season was it's all about whether you guys play hard and it's the most simple point ever It wouldn't be an interesting mind the game episode

But I think this is the recurring theme for the best teams in the league like all of them give a shit game to game Quarter to quarter half to half and the Lakers to their credit It's a it it's impressive. And then you look at Philly and the flip side of that where, how many times did you watch a Philly quarter where you're like, this is the worst thing I've ever seen what's happening, why, how are they allowing this? Uh, same for the Phoenix suns where they're just like, yeah, just going to go in the corner, not if I'm not getting the ball, I might not run back.

The crazy thing about the sun's group is normally you could point to like lack of rotational consistency last year. And yet they still hadn't like you look at last year's season and you thought last year was a disappointment because you just go, imagine if they had all three guys, they don't have this. Like 48. They were the sixth seed, weren't they? So they're like 47, 48 wins.

You have this quirky clutch stat that doesn't even make any sense of how bad they were offensively. And you're just like, well, there's no way that'll happen again. And then when I was looking at it for my show, you look at the three dudes and you're getting this elite shot making,

this incredible output. It's almost like 80 points per game, I think in February when I did the numbers for those guys. And then it's like, yeah, but everything else like doesn't work. I know Bow Bow's had a really nice run here, but let me actually Laker Minute rotation you. Scouting Report, if he has a clean look on the Ketchum 3, he's probably gonna reset himself and move. All right. Long. I would add that. Put long foro long, long length, long length, which is one of my favorite things I've ever seen.

Be careful, be careful attacking them long. In November, the Lakers were 25th on defense. They were eight and six that month. They were 20, 25th on defense. Right. So it felt worse. Yeah. You're, you know, you're looking at it going out, probably going to be their thing.

They're just not going to be very good defensively. Why would that be? Well, D'Angelo Russell for that month, 26 minutes a game. Yeah. You're looking at it going out, probably going to be their thing. They're just not going to be very good defensively. Why would that be? Well, D'Angelo Russell for that month, 26 minutes a game. Cam Reddish, 21 minutes a game. Dolan Kadek was making threes, but he's playing 26 minutes per game. You look at where they're at now in their last 10.

And then if I give you the number two defense in the NBA behind your Detroit Pistons, who are just their own story. And they're like fourth in the last 20, I think too. So it's getting better. Each, every 10 game stretch is better than the last 10 game stretch. When you shoot it well and you play defense, you're gonna win a bunch of games.

So the February minutes, look at the breakdown. So you're replacing T'Angelo Russell 26 minutes a game, depending on the month. Again, I'm just using November. In February, Dorian Finney SmithSmith's 30 minutes a game. Vando, who just hacks the shit out of everybody, but he's in there for 15 minutes fighting his ass off. Dalton's only playing 13 minutes a game.

He's also not shooting great in February. Then Jordan Goodwin comes in and wreaks havoc on everybody. And LeBron's had the second, or kind of tied for second best defensive rating of any of the main regulars. So they are- Right, they get two way LeBron back as part of all of this because he was one way LeBron for two months.

That's the point, yeah. He's been really good. The Philly thing, I don't know what the answer is. Did you look at the lottery odds? The thing is if they, they're probably to be sixth and all it takes is one team to jump them. It's this incredible lottery thing because if they, if they don't keep the top six, one team jumps them and they fall back to seven and then okay. So he gets that pick and okay. See what could be like a 64 win team and probably going to be in the finals. They're going to get

the seventh pick eighth pick in this awesome draft that I've been dabbling in a little bit. I'm starting to get some draft opinions. We don't have to do that today, but this looks like if you're in the top five in this draft, you're getting somebody that is going to be legitimately exciting. Right. Like if you got edge column with the fifth pick, it's like, that guy might be awesome. He might be, um, you know, like an all NBA wing in seven years. I don't know.

This draft draft just seems stacked, especially compared to this rookie class we just had. So anyway, uh, the Philly thing. Wow. And the Eagles won. And I think the Philly fans are still riding a high, but, uh, it's hard to imagine a bleaker situation. Unless you're in the suns.

Cause I think that one's slightly bleaker. There's really only the, we got to trade Booker move and it just seems like they're adamant they're not going to trade them. I just don't think they're going to get a lot for Durant. Last year of his deal, making 50 plus million. I don't know what you're getting for him. Year 19 in the league. Clearly not exactly the same as where he was seven years ago.

I don't, what are you getting for him? Not that much. Do you want to do some reckless speculation? Washington would be the most fun for me or San Antonio would be my reckless speculation. What do you have something better? I just wonder if there's an, if there's a playoff exit from Houston that motivates them to go, okay, look, we have a one timer Houston has done a really

good, a good job here. I don't know who I'm picking them against in the playoffs. Like, yeah, we could sit here and go through all the seating stuff, but I feel like we just be changing it every couple of days. I wonder if there's a Houston exit where they went, you know what, like we can't pay all these guys. We don't even have minutes for all of these guys that we've hit on.

Yeah. And it does feel like, you know, you talk about the two timeline thing that it's just hard. It's really hard to thread that needle. And you go, is the two timeline Brooks Van Vliet with the young guys or is the two timeline Jalen Green and Shingoon with a men Thompson emerging? Is there any version where Green and Shingoon

are totally fine realizing that like Thompson might be the best player? Or is there a Booker trade that you just overwhelm them? I know you don't want to trade Devin Booker, but how about this? And for Phoenix, it's the only get out of jail free card they have basically. Did you think the- And Houston has some Phoenix picks too, is the other piece of that. So I just don't think Gishby is going to be like, okay, cool. Now we're going to tank. We're going to do, is the other piece of that. So I just don't think Ishby is gonna be like, okay, cool, now we're gonna tank,

we're gonna do the process for a couple years. I think that dude is wired the opposite way, where we can get out of this, if we can just do this. My favorite story of the whole post-trade deadline was that Minnesota was trying to trade for Durant. That was my favorite. I just wanna know how that trade's possible between Phoenix and Minnesota

when they're both well over the second apron. What is the scenario where those two teams could have made a Kevin Durant trade? It's like, well, Minnesota had been able to shed some apron stuff. Cool. Where were they doing that? Just, hey, can you guys take Randall?

Sure, we'll take him. How are they shedding apron? I can't take some of the after the fact. And I know where it's coming. Minnesota's like, ah'll take them. How are they shedding apron? I can't take some of the after the fact. And I know where it's coming, like Minnesota's like, ah, you know, they leak it to whoever. We're kicking the tires on Durant. We really trying to, yeah, you can run with us. We're really trying to get them.

How? You're not getting Kevin Durant. Who are you trading for? You can't make a two for one in the April. I like the Luca Milwaukee, Minnesota one There's more there's no that was a great morning on the Minnesota stuff But like a couple times that I had heard was like, yeah, they called but weren't offering Luca Yeah, and walkie had no idea he was available. It's great. There's some really good ones. What's up? Let's take a break and then There's a really good ones. Let's take a break and then there's a big, one big topic I want to hit with you.

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Gam problem call 1-800-GAM or visit rg-help.com. All right, I hate devoting an entire segment to this but it's been bugging me and I just feel like we have to talk about it, like, because it became a huge topic on Friday and I always judge this stuff by anecdotally, if people in my life are asking about us, like, ah, fuck, we probably have to talk about it. But LeBron started this whole thing with the face of the game and how negatively everybody's covering the league.

And, um, there was a Gilbert arenas clip on fat on first take talking about, um, how nice everyone was, was back in the day to the stars and now they're not. And I just, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills cause I've been here the whole time. I think I have a really good handle historically of the league and all the ebbs and flows, even if I hated you, I would have to admit that you're right. Thank you. Um, I think this is the nicest error to be an NBA star that we've ever had. And, um, it's amazing to me when, when people dwell on the negativity, there's

other reasons for the negativity, but if you go backwards and you look at the seventies and the eighties and nineties and two thousands and how players were treated and discussed, it is no contest compared to right now. Um, that's the first thing and I have some stuff I want to do, but give me your initial take on that. I just have a follow-up. I mean, why, why would you make that claim? Why would I make that?

Why, why would you say, cause I don't know if I agree with you. I need convincing on this. Cause my whole point is no one's ever had more access to hate, uh, which I've talked about a lot. And I think a lot of these players just consistently think that they're hated all the time. I think anybody that does anything that is publicly consumed. But that's the point.

It's not just the NBA. Everyone has more access to the alternate side of what you want to hear in all vocations in life. It's not an NBA thing. It's an everything thing. So to say it's just devoted to the NBA to me is like ludicrous. This is just what life is like now. Sell me on the point of those decades

being more negative towards their stars. Well, so this is the problem with this argument. Is that if you actually go through it, everybody has gone through the exact same stuff that the guys go through now. So I'm going to do my three minute first take monologue. Um, you have time. 1970s people hated the NBA. The games were taped delayed and people bitched about the league and we're writing

crazy pieces about this league doesn't work. There's actually pieces you could read in sports, all straight. The league's too black. What are we going to do? Like it could not have been more negative. I promise you, uh, Dr. J beloved star gets to Philadelphia. He's ripped for not winning a title for the first six years until Moses gets there.

That's a huge narrative of the Dr. J thing. He can't come through when it matters. Magic Johnson. Westhead gets fired in 81. He's booed at home. He's devastated, destroyed, crushed. Most selfish guy, what's wrong? These are the modern athletes.

He went through all that shit and he's talked about it. He's crushed after the 84 finals too. Larry Bird after the 85. And that's with a title in his back pocket. Right. He already would. Larry Bird had already won two in the 85 finals. There was the bar fight thing. Everyone's mad at him in Boston. But then in the 90s season when he came back from the Hill surgery, took a ton of shit about being selfish.

Barclay was basically driven out of Philly by the media. Hakeem almost got traded in 92 cause it got so bad with him in Houston. Isaiah just got the reputation as you're an asshole, you're a backstabber. They left him off the dream team. Michael Jordan, beloved now, too selfish to win for seven years. Up until the 91 finals, it's like he shoots too much. All he cares about is his own points. He can't win with this guy.

And then after he won twice, remember in the 93 playoffs, it was so negative about the gambling stuff. He stopped talking to everybody. He stopped talking to the media and then he retired and people are like, is he retiring? Cause it's too much pressure. Kevin Johnson took a ton of shit. Couldn't stay healthy.

94 finals, Pippen didn't take the shot in the 94 playoffs. It still carries it 30 years later. David Robinson, too nice loser. Well, didn't even come shot in the 94 playoffs and still carries it 30 years later. David Robinson, too nice loser. Well, didn't even come back in when it was right. We'll play with him back in and then wore that, you know, for 30 years. Dream team 94, I promise you was not popular when it happened. People were not happy with it. Uh, Shaq in the entire 1990s, people bitched about when is he going to take

basketball seriously? Why does he do all this other stuff? Why is he doing movies and music? Patrick Ewing could have won the big one. Carl Malone. Who took more shit than Carl Malone in the last two finals he was in? Iverson, which I think has come around and is like this beloved figure now. He was not beloved in the 90s in the early 2000s. He took a ton of shit. Christian Leitner, bust, disappointment. All those late 90s guys when we head into that lockout,

remember how mad people were at the league? These guys are making so much money. Kenny Anderson can't feed his family, all that shit. There was so much, we've definitely progressed when you go all the way back to the strike in the NFL in the early 80s and how much society, there wasn't one person going, you realize you're arguing for the owners

to make more money. And that's what always pisses me off. It's like, okay, you wanna look at these players and look at their salaries and say that they're selfish and they're entitled and all this shit. But ultimately what you're saying, when you hope they get paid less or lose at the collective bargaining agreement table,

you're hoping these owners make more money. It's like, I can't identify with somebody who's making that much money. That was an attitude through the nineties. I have a couple more. Jason Kidd traded twice, took a ton of shit. Chris Weber. One of those trades. Well, one of those trades had to happen.

But the Dallas trade, Chris Weber was an all time hot potato guy. And we called him out all the time. His Washington career was incredibly disappointing. He got to Sacramento and it was like, watch C web. He's going to turn completely away from the basket to hear the ball to make baby. He wants no part of this. We made fun of them. Kobe, I would say was the most picked apart athlete in the two thousands.

I wouldn't even say football player and that you might go paint Manning, but there was a lot of Kobe stuff that then when he won the two titles at the end of the decade, then it, they kind of circled around the other way, but it got right. And there was the trial. There was a whole bunch of stuff with Kobe, but, uh, if you go to the. Oh, four finals, Oh five, Oh six, Oh seven, him not shooting in the second half of that Suns game. And how nuts we all went after the fact. Not great. TMAC can't win.

Vince quit on Toronto. He's soft. KG can't win. Dirk who took more shit than Dirk from 06 to 2011. He's soft. He's a choke artist. He's a loser. Like he, he, I think he took probably other than Kobe the most Dwight Howard. I keep going. The point is for whatever reason this has been the league. And I think it's because you have these personalities that drive teams. People feel really attached to them. Either they're defensive and passionate about them or they're mad at them. And that's just the ebb and flow in the league. I honestly think it's better than it's ever been with this stuff. You can find hate anywhere

if you go online. Doesn't mean that people hate. LeBron has like 50 million Instagram followers. Yeah, look, I know enough about those timelines. Like I just remember, you know, when Jordan scored all the points against the Celtics and then lost and you'd be playing a little league baseball tournament and every coach is sitting there in his bike shorts, you know, shitting on Jordan. Now granted growing up in new England was the wrong place because all these guys are going home to worship their Larry Bird altar, but maybe shit had 68. Yeah, right.

Like the collective. He yeah, cool scoring bro. But the lack of respect for who Jordan was, cause he was losing to these older, more superior battle tested, well rounded basketball teams. Like Jordan would have had a very, like people would have destroyed him if he played now through the first seven years of his career without winning anything. Because it's like, if you're the best, you know, you have that kind of attention on you. I feel like people destroyed them back in the day. I thought that the best, you know, you have that kind of attention on you.

People destroyed them back in the day. I thought that was a, you know, that was a big narrative of his career is like, yeah, he's super fun, but he's bird of magic one titles and he didn't like that. My point is this has been a narrative that we've heard forever. And if you don't win titles and you don't come through in the NBA, you're going to take crap, but I also feel like that goes for the NBA, for the NFL. Right. It goes for baseball with somebody like Clinton Kershaw. This is what we do with sports. If you don't win the title. But here's the thing. We don't even do it with baseball anymore.

So like that's cause I was thinking about this face of the league stuff. Yeah. I want to get to that too. Right. Like LeBron, when you are as great as you are, unfortunately part of that deal is you're held to the standard where everything is That too. Right, like LeBron, when you are as great as you are, unfortunately part of that deal is you're held to the standard where everything is dissected. And Ant got a little taste of that because Ant was coming up, approval rating through the roof,

he's so much fun, he starts talking a little shit, and then they get eliminated. They get eliminated on May 30th, right? I looked it up. Yeah. And then he had the receipts commercial on May 31st. Like they had that one ready to go where you're showing like how much this is impacting players. And I know Silver talked about this years ago where he just said, look, we have a

league where our stars, and I'm paraphrasing here, so I hope I'm not too removed from the tone of what he was saying, but I think I have it and that it was like, you kind of have a bunch of guys at the top that are pretty miserable. Like a lot of players. He said that that was when I did that interview with them at the slum conference. That's when he started talking about the unhappiness with the players. And that was 2018 range.

So it's been a storyline for seven years. It's like, why aren't our players happier? Right. So, you know, ant has had probably this, this shift because the Olympics didn't go the way he thought it would go. I mean, he wasn't even out on the floor for some of that stuff. He didn't look super comfortable after talking a lot of shit. Um, again, I don't look at it and go like, Oh man, now I have to reevaluate

what I think about you, but Ant is very predictably going to have, if he doesn't have some kind of playoff success here in the next couple of years, it's going to turn back to everything that you what I think about you. But Ant is very predictably going to have, if he doesn't have some kind of playoff success here in the next couple of years, it's going to turn back to everything that you just said in your timeline of like, Hey, I thought this was supposed to be the guy. You hope you're one of those guys in this sport. Because I was thinking about Ant relation, like has anybody ever talked about De'Aaron Fox?

Like De'Aaron Fox is a really good player. Makes a lot of sense for the Spurs. I think it's a bit like the Donovan Mitchell thing. We're like, yeah, it's not perfect, but he's really good. And if we keep waiting around on what this magical acquisition will be, then we might be waiting forever. But De'Aaron Fox has never talked about that. So there's this group outside of these, I don't know,

seven to eight players we obsess about every single season. There's this group that's not even part of that. And again, baseball, the sport, we don't even have any of those dudes anymore right now that at least nationally. Well, we have Ohtani and nobody is like, Oh, Ohtani, face of the league. I don't know where that, the face of the league piece. It's more personal. Basketball is just way more personal than the other two sports are.

Yeah. You think that it doesn't it feel like the attachment? I mean, sure, we could pick a bunch of quarterbacks that are as big as stars as any NBA players. You got helmets on during game. I've said this forever, basketball is the most naked sport. Whether you're at the game or you're watching TV, you feel like you have this connection with players

that's just different than the other sports. It just is. Especially if you're going and you're watching them and you're watching them during timeouts, you're watching them interact in foul lines and during free throws. And I think the social media aspect of it where they can connect to fans immediately, they can see fed feedback immediately.

Obviously that's not awesome, but I think in some ways it's, it's better for them too, because you know, in the old days you could just like, whatever, like I think back to the Peter Vesey New York post pieces of the eighties and he would just like, you know, he was just absolutely completely eviscerate people. He called Alonzo morning the Oregon growner. Right. Uh, it's, uh, it's just a little different now. Um, and you can mobilize people, you can mobilize all your followers against somebody.

There's the face of the league thing. Yeah. What? That's another one. I don't think I've, I've allowed you this. Well, cause I think it goes, no, I think it goes together. I think, I think with the face of the league thing, we probably see it the same way. You don't talk about it.

It's not like the people magazine sexiest man of the year issue where we just nominate somebody. Benny Blanco. Is that who it was this year? You kind of take it, right? And when you think about like, I've never, when I was in the eighties, loving basketball, I was never like, I wonder who the face of the league is right now. We didn't talk about it.

We didn't talk about it in the nineties. Bird and Magic, because they won, Magic won a title as a rookie and Bird won the title in his second year, the league just sort of shifted to them because they won and then Bird had the three MVPs, two titles, then Magic had three MVPs in four years and he won two titles. And it was just obvious those were the guys. And then Jordan beat Magic in the 91 finals. And guess what?

That made him the guy. And then Jordan went through all the nin finals. And guess what? That made him the guy. And then Jordan went through all the 90s and then it was like Shaq and Kobe together. I guess this is their league now. And then that fell apart. And in the mid 2000s, we're like, Duncan, Spurs, sure. Like no, it wasn't like we're like,

Tim Duncan's now the face of the league. Cause one of the cases you see with this face of the league stuff is like, oh, if Tatum wins three in a row, he's now the face of the league. I don't think it works that way. It kind of organically happens. Kobe had it at the end of the two thousands. Eventually it shifted to LeBron and then it shifted to LeBron and Curry together.

And that's just kind of what happened. We can't nominate Anthony Edwards. It's not like this would happen in tennis sometimes, especially in the eighties. It'd be like Boris Becker. See the face of tennis now, cause he won Wimbledon once. It's like, it's not like this would happen in tennis sometimes, especially in the eighties. It'd be like Boris Becker to the face of tennis now. Cause he won Wimbledon once. It's like, it's not how it works. You kind of ease into it. Nobody would pick Agassi and then it eventually became, oh, it's Agassi and

Sampras. What about a bomb level? Did he have the belt? He had the belt there for a little bit. I, he, it never took. It kept falling off them. Um, but the point with the face of the league now is like, yeah, it's still Steph and Curry. And then somebody's going to have to win a couple titles and take it from him.

But if Wemby comes in and wins two straight titles and he's the best player in the league, he's the face of the league. I just don't know what that means, Rosillo. What does the face of the league mean? Just so you get the most attention? I think we know it without defining it. You think Steph's the face of the league over Lebron? I think the two of them together are really in the last 10 years. I do. I think it's the two of them together.

I don't know, man. I mean, you could point to all those individuals. It's really a talking point. Okay. And I think what happens is, is there's this cycle of like aunt going, I don't necessarily want it. Cause then it's like, what are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to say what he's not going to like try to win the finals? Like if he wins the title and he's the best part in the league, guess what? You get whatever this amorphous made up face of the league thing is. Cause you become the guy. Like to me, it's like, don't you also have to be the best

player though? Because even if Tatum, I mean, that's a lot of work to do, by the way, for Tatum. Just, Hey, let's add two more titles to this. Uh, as great as he is. He wasn't very good today, which I know we'll get to later, but I don't know that he would ever be the face of the league. Cause I've never thought of him as the best player in the league, at least with Steph, there were seasons where I thought he played better than LeBron. I never thought he was actually a better basketball player than LeBron. So to be

face of the league, you also have to be at some point, because I know you've done this in the past with your belt hole. I just did a really good way to look at the league. Like who has the belt, who had the belt then, how many belt transfers are we talking about? Yoko just had the belt for a really long stretch, which is really hard to do. But there's a popularity piece that Yoko just doesn't have. He's just not going to have. That's why to me it's Curry and LeBron are the meal tickets to the league. They're the guys who are going to be in the Saturday 830 game the most. They're the guys who are going to sell the most jerseys, have the most interest. And if they're on a good team, people are going to care the most.

And it's those two. What did you think of LeBron's quote? Cause then it turned into that. Which one? But basically it was like, I didn't ask for it. And then it pivoted into everybody that covers the league just shits on it. Essentially that we're all too negative. I mean, I would just have an opinion on his opinion.

I don't think it's true though, because I think when, when you hit the point where you're kind of the guy in the league or one of the two guys, there's a lot of great stuff that comes with that. You know, you make the most money, you make the most money off the court. You probably have the best chance to win. You can convince the most people to come play with you on like a, you know, on a, on a buyout contract. Um, you can put the most pressure on your owners to do whatever you want them to do.

You can make them trade everything they have for Anthony Davis. Like there's real benefits to it. Um, I, it. I don't think it's like this heavy burden. I think for Ant, it's more a scrutiny thing that he's probably talking about. Like, hey, if you hit this level, you're going to be picked apart in a way that's just a little different. But that's, I mean, that could be anybody, right? That could be Timothee Chalamet right now. That could be whoever is like, whoever you think is the biggest hip hop star right now. It doesn't, it just kind of comes to the territory if you're the best at anything you do.

I don't know why that would be a burden. There's good and bad to everything. But this is his opinion. I do wonder though, like the negativity thing. Yeah. Like I'll have pods where I'll think, are you harping on the same stuff? Yes. Um, but again, if we're doing a basketball pod and like whatever the headline was

that week, like you're going to stay topical, you're going to play the hits, but there'll be certain players and like, there's just nothing else for you to say anymore, like it's established how you feel. There's nothing new. You're not going to change your mind. The sun cost is a topic for us. There's nothing else we could say about the suns to share at this point. Right.

Like I've liked the rant for such a long time, but this past year plus, and not to bring up the hockey tweet like a third time, but he's just like, how could you possibly think that that's a good point? How could you think that just basically telling everybody fuck off when it's like, man, you're the one. And I, that's also like part of it too. It's like, this league is so different with how powerful the players are. That, you know, did you think you were going to get no criticism signing

contracts and then asking out before an extension and either kicked in? Right. Or how you treated all-star weekend, which was, you know, the first time the football season ends, the first time the football season ends. The first time basketball is really in the limelight for real is All-Star weekend and that everybody treats it like shit. And it's like, we're supposed to say thanks?

Like, what's our role? Everyone who went to All-Star, I've talked to a bunch of people to All-Star weekend and they were all like, it was fucking miserable. It sucked. It was awful. And the timing of it is so bad now. And it's like, so that no blood on your hands for all the good players?

It's like nothing? You don't care? Yeah. It's like, okay, the window is finally shifted. Like you are outside of the football shadow. So like own this week. And it's like, nope. Right.

Not only are we not going to own the week, we're going to embarrass the league. Again, and I don't care about that week. I haven't cared about it for years. I think I've watched the game once in the last 15. This is not new that the players don't necessarily care, but they're not making the most of our opportunities. I think all of us are more negative than we are positive. Okay.

I think that. But that's just life. I think everybody, I don't think that's a basketball situation. I think that's what part is it like that? I'm just saying like the internet breeds that if you go to, are you like that to your family? No, I'm saying you go into Twitter applies, you go on a Reddit. I remember I was, I was at, uh, I w I went to Goldspirers class in Austin and they

did all these studies on different things about how to follow basketball. And one of the, one of the things was about NBA Reddit, just the percentages of positive tweets versus negative tweets. Or not post negative posts, comments versus positive about the league. And if I just told you, they did that. What would your response be? What would you think it would be? Probably like, what would the ratio be for you?

Just guessing. I think it's going to be low. I mean, the way you're leading this, I have to pick a massive split on it. I think it's gonna be low. I mean, the way you're leading this, I have to pick a massive split on it. So I'll say 80% negative. No, it wasn't that bad. I prejudice you with my lead in, but it was like 35, 65 or 30, 70, something like that.

But just people are more prone when they're on any sort of forum like that to be negative than positive. That's just, you just have to know that going in. I would argue that people at the games are way nicer, way nicer. It's not even close. I would love for people to go into a time machine and go to like the fleet center in 1996, just get a feel for what those two hours were like with like an angry, you know, fan base that didn't like the product

and just had the freedom to just yell at everybody. Like it's, now I look now, I think it's actually like a pretty nice experience. Like there'll be stories about, oh, there was a heckler who yelled at somebody, they kicked him out. It's like, fucking A, like there was 30 of those. I remember going to a Golden State Sacramento game when I was visiting my buddies in San Francisco in like 98.

And I had no idea that the Golden State fans hated Chris Webber so much. So it was 99. It was that first season and they were just booing him, yelling him. It was like a two and a half hour Chris Webber roast in the stands. Anything he did, they're going nuts. Like that, those days are over. We don't see the rant and OKC that comeback game was probably the last time anything like that happened. Right.

Yeah. Getting a fan removed and then it becomes, because the player has the power to have that happen now. Yeah. It'll become like a topic. And then, you know, if it's a really slow day, you know, you'll discuss like, what, what does this mean? Yeah.

I think there's some players that actually like to look for it a little bit more than other players. And you realize like this thing that is definitely an improvement to the experience for the player, a massive, because you're completely right about that, like going to some of these crowds, going to baseball stadiums, going back to Foxborough in the day. I mean, just you wouldn't even want to bring a kid. Well, baseball, everyone's on their phone.

So that's the probably the safest place you can be an athlete. Yeah. But I used to be looking up unless a foul ball's coming at them, which can't happen because there's a net. The bleachers used to be about how drunk were you going to get and how many fights were they going to be and how, and what can you yell at the other players and stay, and stay in the park? Right.

So then when a player has a fan removed, then it becomes kind of this think piece of like the dynamic of respect and all these different things. Like, what can you have happening? You're like, yeah, but no one was ever removed in the past. So it actually happened at a much greater rate. You just, we're not defending the past. It's just the way it was. I just think actually happened at a much greater rate. You just, we're not defending the past. It's just the way it was.

I just think every year is a little bit different. I listen, if, if players feel a certain way, I'm certainly going to tell them not to feel that way. I do think a big piece of this is self-inflicted though, by the league, the schedule is too long. If we, if we had a 70 game season or a 60 game season, I don't have to watch these extra 20 games of the sons. Right. There's more games of the sons. Right.

There's more urgency for the games, the, the load management stuff, which we've talked about ad nauseam that made it hard for players, for fans to connect with the, with the league and players. Right. The players call it too much shit for that though. You know, but I think it made it hard. It was something that got brought up and I do think it mattered to fans that they bought a ticket and the guy wasn't there.

That's a real thing. I'm not saying like that's going to be the worst experience, especially you don't have the budget to go to more than one game a year. And then you bring your kid and he's all fired up. He's got the Jersey on and they're not playing. I think there were certain teams. Like, I really think what the Spurs did in a very Belichick way to just be like, Hey, you know what TNT Thursday night?

Yeah. And remember, remember the ABC game, how bad it got there for awhile where you were like, are you guys seriously like giving the league and your television partner this much of a fuck you just, Hey, we're just going to sit everybody. Yeah. And I understand like what the science and by the way, the science has proven very little because it's not like we go into the playoffs, like every playoff story is littered with like two or three major injuries. So I'm not sure.

I'm not expecting that everybody was just going to be healthy all the time, but I don't know if that's had the positive impact that everybody thought it would be when they wrote about it for nonstop, uh, for years wrote about it nonstop four years, but that that's part of it. I don't know, man. I guess sometimes I wonder, you know, clearly with this pod, we've got a large audience, sometimes I feel like I'm too negative. And instead of like having LeBron give this quote or some of it, like, look,

with his quotes, I don't love all of them. All right. Uh, but he's been giving us quotes for two plus decades. So which public figure would I ever be like, you know what, everything he said for 20 plus years, I've liked figure would I ever be like, you know what? Everything he said for 20 plus years, I've liked everything he said. That person doesn't exist. It's impossible to have the Chalamet approval rating after the two decade

plus run for LeBron. But when I started thinking about like just negativity, him saying everyone is too negative. Well, no, that's not the case. But then I'll know like of all the games that I watch, especially when negativity, him saying everyone is too negative. Well, no, that's not the case. But then I'll, I'll know like of all the games that I watch, especially when it's on like the national broadcast and like Bronnie comes into a game and then the broadcasters start talking about like how hard he works.

You're like, dude, he's got an NBA uniform on and he's not good and he shouldn't be out there and this whole thing's kind of a joke. So let's evaluate it that way, but there will be no, like that won't happen. So it actually strengthens your point. Whenever those broadcasts, like that's when I feel like, am I being negative or am I being like just a basketball fan that's frustrated with the way that the national broadcast is discussing a game or discussing certain players when you just go, hey this person and again Maybe I shouldn't even use Ronnie

But that was just one that jumped out is like you guys are gonna do four minutes on like the positives here or or like Philly Before the start of the season when there was pieces about here's their plan to win a championship and it was like Hey, part of the plan is Senate beats not gonna play back to back so more but here's what they're trying to do They're trying to be healthy and be it's not gonna play back to backs anymore. But here's what they're trying to do. They're trying to be healthy and Embiid's not gonna play back to backs anymore and his name might be fucked up. I don't know, it just, there's so many- Like are we supposed to be positive about Embiid? Are we supposed to be positive?

Or the Philly situation or all of it. I just feel like for us, like one of the reasons I think we connected and became friends and we like doing the pod together is we really love basketball. Like both of us will be watching these random games on stupid nights and we really give a shit about it. And you can't just talk about all the stuff you like. Like you got to have a little balance both ways. But I think we celebrate the game as much. We criticize it. There's other shows and, and personalities that I think kind of dine in the, I, this gets me

attention if I do this, I don't feel like we do that. Like, I always feel like we're having a conversation about things we like and don't like about the league. Like I love watching Detroit right now. I could do 10 minutes on Ron Holland right now. I fucking love Ron Holland. Ron Holland's, I haven't even watched, I probably watched 15% of the Pistons games

or pieces 20%. Ron Holland seems like he's ready to get into it with everybody on every team. He's like 19 years old. I really like watching them. I appreciate the Pistons. I'm excited to watch them play the Knicks in round one. I think if you lose that side of things,

it becomes harder for me to take your criticisms seriously. You still have to fundamentally like what you're watching. I don't feel like some people out there do. I just like calling out the bullshit because I think there's a lot of it, whether it's another media members quote, because then there's some guys that are just only positive. And I think you're, you just this much of an ass kisser.

Like what do you think you're going to hang out with these guys? You know, is he going to get it? People like the next time they have a, they rent a boat, they're going to invite you like what the fuck are you doing? And so I know I'd never be that guy, but you know, kind of your point about like Philly or even the Durant part, like I think I've, I mean, I didn't even really get on his case during the Golden State thing, because I thought he wanted to get away from Westbrook and he wanted to play perfect basketball and he wanted to,

he wanted to like, you know, back to the joy topic. He wanted to experience like absolute pure basketball joy. But when you have a four year extension and you want Marks and Nash and everybody fired before it even kicks in, and then you come back and play, and then you ask out and now you've put together a season, I would say more so this year than last year, but you, I mean, they got killed against Minnesota, like that's when the sons died. And I was dumb enough to think that they weren't dead yet. And they were already dead, but they just had another season and this season.

So what does Durant expect? Did he expect that people were going to be like, man, he's still getting you like 29, 30 every single night. Because if you look at the little stuff in between, it doesn't always show it. This is not a locked in group. This is a group that seems to be really down on each other. I thought the coach Bud stuff admitting that he had told Booker to tone it down.

Like I just wondered, I was like, man, I wonder if that'll be something out of Booker. I thought he was gonna get fired this weekend. I really did. I thought there was gonna be like a Don Nelson next thing. All right, let's take a quick break because I want to keep talking about this. So one last thing on the, uh, on whether people are too critical or not.

I can't believe we spent this much time talking about, but I do think it's interesting, um, it seems like the rise of the X player podcasts and voices. That's contributed to this whole, when everybody's like, we spent too much time comparing the past to the present. And I think the social media piece of that too, where you see all these videos and these breakdowns of this guy against this guy. Um, I just really hope that people realize, and I like some of the ex player stuff, how unreliable they are as narrative narrators.

Um, these are people that were playing the entire time. They might have opinions based on who they're against. It's not like they spend a ton of time thinking about different eras of the league and stars and comparing. So, and you'll just see stuff on the, on these shows or pods or on your, on your social feed where you're like, what are we doing? Like, I just feel like the discourse, big picture about, uh, basketball as it relates to errors in the past is like the worst it's ever been.

Um, and I don't think that's helping with some of this stuff. So you really disagreed with the arenas's point. I think that's fair to say. That was just one example where I'm just like, they just go back, like go, go read some of the books, go read Phil Jackson's book about Kobe in 2005. Like we just can't, you can't just pretend stuff didn't happen. It's just the rate, man. It's the rate of it. And I do not understand.

Like I couldn't believe the first time a coach told me, he's like, yeah, all the players come in and check their mentions at halftime. Like you didn't know that. Right. And I'm thinking like, what a ridiculous, but then I thought, okay, well, every single ESPN host, as soon as you go to break, does the exact same thing. That, uh, that always, I could never believe that. What a terrible thing to do during a break at a show. Right.

Because then what would happen? Maybe somebody will say I look ugly. Hey, I've been guilty of it. I used to do it. And then I stopped because I Maybe somebody will say I look ugly. Hey, I've been guilty of it. I used to do it. And then I stopped because I realized you were coming back from break, like talking to one person. You're arguing with motorcycle 69.

Every single guy did it. Every one of us. And it made all of us worst hosts because because you know, you're, you were distracted, you were talking to this one person, you were focusing on the one negative because nobody was going to be like, Hey, you know what? Really good job making a point and a really solid conclusion. No notes. Can't pick holes.

Cause I mean, everybody's favorite hobby now, like even if I do a monologue on something for 10, 15 minutes, usually 15 means it's too long. It was like, Oh, did you think about this? Like, well, I could have done 30. You left out. Yeah. You left right. Yeah. Like that is everyone's favorite hobby right now, at least for what we do is

that, well, here's the point that you didn't make. And then a lot of times it'll be so obvious. It's like, well, I didn't even point that out. Cause I don't even know why anybody would even bring it up. And what we do is even fucking cool. So when I think about players, basically doing the exact same thing, elected officials do the exact same thing. I remember I got into it with Van Pelt.

I was like, why are you arguing with somebody right now? You're broadcasting the fucking masters. You were broadcasting the, you're on like the seventh hole. And, you know, he, I realized like, kind of no one can help themselves to different degrees. And what I like about our age group is that we know what it was like before this. And we certainly are in it deep now for years and years. So we've experienced both of it.

Imagine being a 20 something basketball player. So like you're always going to be more impacted by the negativity, the access to it, the rate of it. I think it's just. Fucks a lot of guys up. So it's hard to tell players you're wrong about the negativity when it's all they've ever experienced. They're not gonna do what you did, because they weren't around when you did it.

They're not gonna go back and read Sports Illustrated articles from the 70s and go, you know what, I have greater perspective on this. I don't have it too bad right now. So I don't think anything LeBron said was necessarily wrong. I was talking about the ex-players. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the X player thing.

Although there has been some good content lately. Did you see the Vernon Maxwell on All the Smoke talking about when Hakeem slapped him? That was one of the best three minutes I've spent all year. That was so good. That clip was so good with those guys because Max respects them. Yeah, that was amazing.

And look, Barnes the Wildcard and Steven Jackson I think people would say is a real one. So, that was, I'm totally with you. I mean, look, if you wanna talk ex-players, I don't know if I trust anybody more than Jeff Teague right now. Jeff Teague's been great. Every Jeff Teague breakout is like incredible.

I love Barnes and Captain Jack, cause I think when they talk about basketball and the history and how it relates now, like I actually believe in their opinions on it. I I've had them on the pod and we were arguing about Kobe versus Duncan, who was the guy and the two, the one that players, no, they both were Kobe. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, but they made compelling cases for it. And it's like, that's what's fun about basketball is arguing about different things. I have never, the first time I ever remember even thinking about who the face of the league was, was when MJ was retiring and we were kind of like, what do we do now? And then it was like, is it Grand Hill? It went on for years. Is it Iverson?

But it was more like there was such a void. NFL has never really had to deal with it because they always have two or three quarterbacks who are just there ready to roll. Right. Like that, like Brady and Manning had it forever. And then Aaron Rogers was just right there. And then he moves in and then all of a sudden my home showed up and he's there and Joe burrow and they've, they always have two or three dudes, Josh

Allen's in there now Lamar. Um, maybe a couple other guys will pop in over the next couple of years, but they always have the four to five, the NBA, there will be stretches. We felt it in the mid 2000s was like, what do we do? Kobe's on shitty teams. We thought it was going to be him. Shaq's getting old. Duncan's not clicking with people, you know?

Um, is it Dwayne Wade? Oh, Dwayne Wade, 06 finals., is it Dwayne Wade? Oh, Dwayne Wade, 06 finals. Maybe it's Dwayne Wade. And it was just a lot of that for basically all the way through until we ended up with LeBron a Kobe as kind of the, uh, the guys, but I just think it's way more organic than us deciding. It can be the face of the league. If he kicks everybody's ass and wins the title and is clearly the best guy in the league.

That's how it happens. There's no other scenario. Right. And then he's selling shoes and people talk about him and people like my mom know who he is. That those are all the checkpoints you have to hit. Yeah. It doesn't happen without the, we don't decide doesn't know.

And there was that push to try to figure out who the post Jordan guy was. And that void did go on forever. It was the Kobe all star game where it just was going to be too early for Kobe to take that on after some of these other misses. And Iverson didn't have the playoff success other than the finals run. But the team just wasn't good enough for this to be like, oh, this is phase one of this sustainable thing with the Sixers. It was kind of just this remarkable defensive run with an

offense built around one guy just hopefully going crazy enough to get you some playoff wins. So I think the lesson in that is that that face never, like that face storyline never developed. Like that person did not present themselves and whatever that void was, it didn't mean the league was just going to swallow itself up and cease to exist. And I mean, we can get into some of the rating stuff, the popularity of whatever. Um, which I, there's one piece though, there's a personality piece that I feel like, you know, when you see it, that's probably not going to work as like the lead guy.

And I think Granhill was a good example. Granhill was awesome, but I never felt like he was, there was like a sense of like, almost like danger missing with him. Right. And then Duncan was a good example. Granhill was awesome. But I never felt like there was a sense of, almost like danger missing with him, right? And then Duncan was the same thing. Duncan was the best guy. I still have Duncan like sixth or seventh all, I think I have him seventh all time. And I still think he was the best guy of the 2000s.

And yet there was never a moment where people were like, Duncan, like they ignored a lot of the stuff that he did. They focused on the wrong things and he just didn't care. Right. And I think Tatum is a little bit like that now where Tatum is never going to be the best guy in the league. I don't think. Um, but he could be the most successful guy of this decade, right? He could be the guy when we leave the 2020s, the guy that was the best guy in the most title teams, but he doesn't have that sense of that, that whiff of something that same thing with Duncan and grand Hill.

Where it's just like you have to pull in everybody and there's something about Tatum that seems like it doesn't click with people. I don't know what it is. It doesn't click with people. I don't know what it is. I thought during the broadcast today, that was really interesting because it then turned to like another face to lead conversation and Doris was talking about like Tatum and essentially saying, you know, if you're that person, then you shouldn't even have to address it. And I love that Breen was like, okay, but he was asked about it.

Wapo was also a game where there was an ad that started with Tatum in a press conference, the commercial where the reporter again, it's an actress going, you're on top of the basketball world right now and you're like, okay, he's got the title and he's the best player on a title team. And I think you're rounding up a bit on like what's possible for him, because I know we're going to get to Cleveland and all this other stuff, but I liked that Breen was like, okay, but of all the superstars, this guy is incredibly polite

and he also plays every single game. So yeah, I think there's a personality thing. Yeah, there's a personality disconnect. Iverson was the coolest thing ever, all right? It was the coolest. But was really polarizing when he was playing. I think people like you and I were probably in the minority of like, I fucking love Iverson, I love how Hardy plays.

But there was other people that were like, eh. Yeah, but he kind of lost. He lost me a bit there towards the end of the Philly stuff because it's just. The mid-2000s on were not awesome. Cause it's just, I mean, especially if you go back. Mid-2000s on were not awesome. Yeah. There's, there's an approach to,

like if you're setting the tone as the best player in a team, and then you're taking off and doing your own thing all the time, it just can't be bothered. Like, I don't know how that's good for the team. And I don't know how that's good for yourself. So once we had access to a little bit more of that stuff,

I think that's also something else too, is like guys used to be able to hide. Guys would be able to hide. We didn't know what that's good for yourself. So once we had access to a little bit more of that stuff, I think that's also something else too, is like guys used to be able to hide. Guys would be able to hide. We didn't know what was going on with them. We know what's going on with these guys literally every single fucking minute. So the relationship is so much more intimate and when it is that more intimate,

then you're much more likely to find things that you don't like about some of these dudes. But as far as like- But isn't that everything though? It's not just the NBA. I feel like that every aspect of life is like that now. Think about how many people impress you in the first five minutes

and then ultimately let you down. Like if you think about your professional career, the number of people that once you had more exposure to them, I mean, I know that's the case for me, so I don't want to speak for you, but then you were like, ah, man, I had high hopes for this person. That's why now, seriously, if somebody nails it with me in the first five to

10 minutes, I'm more worried. You're suspicious. Yeah. I'm like, you were so good in the first five to 10 minutes. I thought now I'm like, what's wrong with this person? Well, the, the cold concept of celebrity and how fast people can get it. And then how fast they can lose it. I feel like that process has definitely been sped up. I say it with like my daughter when I'm always, I'm always asking her like,

what are you, what are you watching? Who do you care about? What's your favorite podcast? What's your favorite video podcast? And it always seems to change. What is her favorite podcast? Every I think it was the canceled podcast, but I think now they had some shit. What, what, what's interesting is it's like the same cycle over and over again, where she, she really liked somebody and then like, why didn't you listen to that podcast anymore? Oh, they had a meltdown. Oh, one of the co-hosts got canceled.

Oh, they ended up turning on each other. Uh, and it's just like, the internet just like hyper hypercharges, all of these kind of rises and falls with all of these different social media characters. It's hard to keep up with basketball. You have the same rise and fall stuff, but the guys are making $50 million a year. And it's like, Kevin Durant's on the top of the world in 2018. And then he's down and then he's up and then he's down.

Then he goes to Phoenix. It's going to be great. Now he's down. Oh my God, they're trading them. Now he's going to maybe he gets traded to St. Antonio in July. It's like, oh, Kevin Durant can teach Wemba Nyama how to win, and it's just like a fucking rollercoaster. And maybe that's what LeBron was talking about,

that the scrutiny and the rollercoaster ride of all this is really hard, and if you're the face, I'm sure it's a bigger rollercoaster. I can't imagine, though, not wanting to be the face. How could you be a pro athlete? Well, that's where it gets, that's where it's hard to take it seriously, where it's like, so you didn't want this the whole time

when you're doing Nike ads in 2003, and you did a special to change teams, and so you didn't want, you weren't excited for this? I was not surprised by that part of the quote, but whatever, I just, it's like, oh my God. I like not surprised by that part of the quote, but whatever. I just, it's like, I like that is candid though. He, he definitely, he has such a big platform now when he talks about stuff candidly, it really does have reactions that last two to three days. Sometimes he does make people think. Um, I think that, you know,

the mind the game pod about some of the dialogue about that, about we had to do this pod to save basketball discourse. I take stuff like that probably a little bit personally, because he's basically, I don't know, we spent, like going back to Graylon and the Ringer, we've tried to elevate discussion on pods and writing and all this stuff, and I think a lot of people have.

So when somebody's saying nothing's elevated, you're kind of like, well, I mean, we're trying. You know? I know that I care a lot about what we talk about on this, what I've talked about on my pods and the shows in the past. I mean, I really, I mean, I really cared about putting a lot of thought into what my opinions were going to be. And yet I always knew like, Oh, you don't like, do you know what the help rules are? Do you know what all the terminology is?

Second, April. Yeah. Well, no, that kind of stuff. I used to really, and then I realized it's like, you're spending way too much time on this, like I would, I would study the CBA pretty religiously because I wanted to have it like down and I used to have it down and now I'm like, I think I'll be okay. Remember we did that one podcast right after they changed the CBA and both of us

were so freaked out and we were doing, it was like, we were like trying to take a boat and cross the Pacific Ocean. We were like, I, but then there's this other, we were like so nervous. We didn't understand it. Yeah. Because I, I felt like, you know, there's always the like unintended consequences thing that is just hard to factor in. I was thinking about this the other day, like the timeout for three minutes to go where you lose the

timeout. Cause it was like, Hey, here's silver and the competition committee. I don't even know if that's what they call it. It's what the NFL does, but they decided, yeah, there's too many timeouts at the end of games. Like let's take a timeout away from them. Okay. What's happening? Everybody just calls it now. So you could come out of commercial break one possession of the other team looks up and goes, oh we're gonna lose this time out anyway. Yeah. So let's make sure we take it now. And so we're not getting any time back because the unintended consequence was that you ended up with coaches just going, I'll take it before I lose it. So now my solution would be just give them one less time out and then

you'll be fine and back to the original plan. Anyway, the reason I use that as an example is that whenever you're on the fly trying to read a CBA and the highlights from the whole thing, like we were kind of going, this feels like a hard cap. And I was almost scared a little bit to go, is it a hard cap?

Like, is this going to be a hard cap? But yeah, back to the original thing, like, look, man, I do put a lot of thought into this. I always wondered if I could get to an age where I'd be like, you think at this age you'll just go like, ah, fuck it. I watched the fourth quarter. I'm good. I haven't read anything.

There's definitely ways to cheat. Yeah, right. And then I think about the guys that played, and I think about the guys that played, and I think about the coaches and a lot of the people that work in our industry, you know, whether it's, you know, it's not a perfect parallel to it. But there's so many players that I'll listen to and go,

okay, wait, you have a problem with me and I didn't play? Like, have you heard your shit? Have you heard how dumb all your arguments? I mean, there's one person in particular that I'm thinking of right now. Like if I really wanted to do a 10 minute monologue destroying this person's takes and how fucked they are, and I don't know what the motives are behind him, but like I could. But I really don't

want to get in a fight with anybody about that kind of stuff. But that's, it almost brings me back. It's like being a screenwriter where you get really discouraged and then you're like, holy shit, they greenlit that. Let's open up the laptop. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if we have the answer.

I'm just, my point is I think the NBA has always had a more than a twinge of negativity to it, and I think it has to do with the personalities and the experience of going to games and having those guys right in front of you. And the fact that there's a connection that's just different. Baseball used to have it. I think the net has really hurt. I know why they have it. I get all the reasons, but the net is, is, is just tough. You think the net has ruined baseball? I don't say it has ruined baseball. I think it's tough.

I think it's tough. Wow. I didn't say it has ruined baseball. I think it's tough. I think it's tough. I didn't even notice. Really? Yeah. Oh man. I used to love the energy of like, this might be the pitch where a foul ball comes over here or just- Oh, you like being on your toes.

Ah, loved it. Nobody's on their toes anymore in baseball. Middle linebacker bill. People are just crossing the highway, not worried about getting hit by a car. And when they go to a baseball game, now you just be on your phone for 20 minutes. You feel the energy around it. It's definitely different. Um, let's take one more break.

And then, uh, we got to talk about the Celtics weekend. So I'm going to give you biggest red flags for every contender. Just quickly. You tell me if you agree. I didn't prep you for this. Cleveland, lack of playoff experience, I would go, which just jumps to your head immediately. Which is-

That's the only thing. That's the only thing. I love them. I absolutely love them. Okay, say that, because I want to come back. Right. Boston, hunger, health, and mileage would be my three. Just the mileage on the guys

from the hundred game that worried me. Yeah. The only thing I would say, and it's not fair, and it's probably because I watch them too much, but I think they get almost too hunt happy. Yeah. Where everything's happening 40 feet from the basket of the guys that are going to be the best players in the world. And I think that's the only thing that's going to be happening. And I think they get almost too hunt happy. Yeah.

Where everything's happening 40 feet from the basket. Oh, we got this. You know, I get it. Expose the weakness, find the bad matchup. You have these two incredible on ball wings. You have a third guy and Derek, why do you can do some of that stuff too? I mean, they are when it is clicking on offense. I mean, the offensive numbers are outrageous.

They're terrific. So who am I to sit here and criticize any of this stuff? Hard to complain. I criticized some of it last year, it did not matter, but they can get so hunt happy that I wonder in the way basketball is connected, that if other players are just watching somebody hunt

the entire time, at least they take turns with it, some teams will just have their main ball handler hunt the entire time. And it's a minor thing that I notice, but I'm probably too critical of it because there's no offensive number that tells you, oh yeah, like, uh-oh. I like the term hunt happy.

Congratulations on that. I agree with you, by the way. I wish they would just run plays every once in a while to mix it up. Just every once in a while, just put Tatum at the foul line and give them a, like a Dirk Nowitzki post up just so it's not the same thing over and over again, where we're just hunting guys, hunting guys, hunting guys. Cause I do think the defenses can get in the rhythm of knowing it's

coming and figuring out tricks. So, um, Denver. And we'll talk about that game in a second, but they just have no room for error at all. If they're not making threes, it gets tough. If anyone, if Gordon's out or Murray's hurt or even Brown's hurt, it gets super tough for them. If Westbrook just sucks, it's almost like they can't, they can't fight it. And it's just, I think they could win three straight rounds.

I think they could go four and three and three straight playoff series or four and two, but it's not going to be a team that's like ripping through the playoffs. There's just too many ways it seems like it go wrong game to game would be my red flag. They have lineups that they run out there where, and maybe it's a regular season thing. Look, no Aaron Gordon today, who's their best defensive player and has been shooting it well from three, but he's still somebody that I think teams are going to test.

Um, but, you know, so it's not entirely fair cause Gordon's missed a couple of games here, but they had a lineup where it was Michael Porter Jr. surrounded by Westbrook Brown, who was great today. But I mean, what was his shot total? Like if you go into a game, he took 22 shots. So if you're sitting there prepping out what you want to do against Denver, you're like, Hey, if Christian Brown takes 22 shots, it's probably a win for us today. Right.

So it's Michael Porter Jr. who I think is, you know, if you dig into his advanced stuff, he's not the same guy that he was the first couple of years on the scene, even though defensively he was such a disaster then that Malone didn't really even trust him. I wouldn't say he's a plus, but I think he's a total coin toss guy. If he had 21 or he had three, I wouldn't be surprised. I also think he plays a little soft, but back to this lineup. So it's Porter Jr., Westbrook, Brown, Deandre Jordan, and Strother. And when you're looking at some of the three points shooting against these guys, like Westbrook's going to be open. And when he hit his first three, I thought that was a bad sign

for Denver with this stuff. You can also see Westbrook decide he's not comfortable shooting. You can also see Westbrook, you know, it's great that he's probably understood his role better here than a lot of the other places as he's tried to become a role player, like I'd say what as he's tried to become a role player. Like I'd say what this is stop three as a role player because Washington, he still was clearly the guy you'll see him be in a hurry to force it back to Yelkich, which is showing him being deferential away that we weren't used to

with so many of the prime Westbrook years, but I think it can also mess them up a little bit. So whether it was the Lakers matchup or the Boston matchup today, again, without Gordon is an entirely fair. I have, I know you weren't expecting this long, so I'm not going to go this long on the other ones, but I've talked about it being four teams because of the respect for Jokic and Denver was fourth in the FanDuel title odds. It's, it's those three and Denver's in like a sliver tier by themselves.

Cause I just don't think they're as good as Oklahoma, Oklahoma city, Cleveland or Boston. And I don't see how they are going to be as good as those three teams. I have them fourth as well, but I also feel the yolkage piece when we get to a playoff where they just are playing the same team for two straight weeks. I think that's good for them. Did you see the spacing stuff? I know.

Well, the thing that's alarming, the open Did you see the spacing stuff, man? I know. Well, the thing that's alarming, the open threes today, how many just wide open threes they took compared to, did they even shoot 40%? They were two for 11 on their first 11 wide open threes. Yeah, that's what would scare me if I'm them. On the game, they got it back to 34%, but they're last in the NBA in points from the three, so their percentage of points, however many they score a game, they got it back to 34%, but they're, they're last in the NBA in points from the three. So their percentage points, however many they score a game, they have the last or the lowest total of points via the three pointer of anyone.

And so then they come to a game like today, like that was going to be really weird if Boston had blown this because approach wise, Hey, here's the plan. Here's what we want to have happen. It's exactly what you would hope to do to Denver. Like, yeah, great. You're fake spacing. And if I'm Denver, I feel great. It was a one possession game.

I didn't have Gordon, who's my third most important guy. And I still, if I'm Denver, and I know I can be in crunch time in the playoffs with Jokic and Porter and Gordon and Murray and Brown, I still feel really good about where I'm at. If I could just get into fourth quarters with those five guys, not get crushed on those Yocage minutes, but you know, even like somebody like Torrey Craig feels like they could, it could have helped them.

I kind of liked this. I'll take sneaking out the Torrey Craig move. Um, I just Denver doesn't have enough guys. I trust. Okay. See red flag, just the second score, lack of experience thing. Um, just ultimately if they're down four on the road in a really big playoff game and a team is just swarming, Shane, double teaming them.

Like who's stepping up? I just want to see it. I'm, I'm not, I'm not down on it, but we just haven't seen it. It's very similar to the Celtics last year. Just want to see what happens with that. It'll be interesting if Shea gets his points. Jaylen Williams gets his points. Chet, as you'd expect, taking a little time.

I thought he was so great in that Brooklyn game when they gave up what, 76 points to the nets of all teams with this kind of defense, this historic differential defense based on the league averages, but it might just be does Isaiah Joe door Caruso Aaron Wiggins. I mean, he's I've joked about him being one of my favorite players, but as far as like a roll guy and stepping up and then what he did in February, I mean, every time I watch a thunder game, I'm always like, man, do I do favorite, favorite bench guys right now want to do a team? Cause my favorite bench guy is Ty Jerome, just hands down.

Ty Jerome comes in and the score changes immediately. He does nine thanks. I love Ty Jerome. I think he's gonna, I genuinely think he's gonna make like $60 million this summer. I'm predicting that now. I too, I too am fond of Ty Jerome. We have him on the pod coming up this week, by the way.

Oh, nice. I'm a huge, joining on Thursday, great. I'm a huge fan. I love when he comes in. He it's exactly, he's like the most pure bench guy in the league comes in. It's going to play as eight, nine minutes, however long it is. He's going to affect the game. He's going to make a shot. It's going to have energy.

Um, and in that Friday night south of game, I was like, fuck, I, I hope they don't close with Ty Jerome because Ty Jerome is a problem. Um, by the way, Wiggins is Jerome because Ty Jerome is a problem. By the way. Wiggins is up there for me as a favorite bench guy too. There was a moment when Ty Jerome was playing and trying to figure out where his basketball life was gonna go. Van Gundy was on the broadcast and this is when I knew.

I mean, again, anybody that watched him in college, he's very different in that the play is open. There are options open on his plays that are longer. If that makes sense. Like it's almost like a quarterback watching routes develop and he finds a way to give the receivers the extra beat to do whatever they need to do so that you're, you're still defending more shit than you want to defend with Jerome. And that's why he screws up so many of these defenses.

Cause you're like, there's no way this is going to work. And it's a lot of that Nash wrong foot thing, or it's the takeoff to pass, where guys started, remember, like almost running out of the way of Nash's drives, it actually opened up things for Nash because people were closing out and so freaked about his passing skills. And Jerome has these runners where everything

is kind of wrong and then you don't really know what's supposed to happen. Anyway, Van Guny was on a broadcast and it was almost like your grandfather watching Christina Hendricks on an episode of Mad Men for the first time. Like just this erotic slightly like the way Van Gundy talked about Ty Jerome's game, it was like he needed a breath. Like he needed a moment. And it makes all the sense in the world.

Like Cleveland, when they came back, what was really interesting about their game, they went to 10 guys, I think 14 minutes into the game. They were at 10 guys. And they're 10 guys. The friend in that game you're talking about. Right. Maybe you take a coral off the table table shot selection, some of that stuff.

Let's say nine, nine of the guys for Cleveland now are really good. Yeah. Ty Jerome, Wiggins. Um, I'm trying to think who else are my favorites. I still enjoy Quinton Grimes. I wish he was on a good team. Uh, a bunch of the Detroit guys. They play a million dudes.

They're playing 11 guys. Detroit brings their guys in and they're all playing really hard and they're ready to rough people up and get in fights. Uh, red flag. Set the tone. Lakers is easy rim protection and, uh, defending at the other team's point guard. If it's somebody who can get to the rim, I think it's going to be a problem for them that they could figure it out.

And then Golden state turnovers and ball handling. They, they, they still have the dumbest turnovers. It doesn't matter who's on the team. They're just going to have dumb turnovers. They're going to have really bad turnovers and crunch time. I think it's aging Steve Kerr and like dog years watching. I think it drives them nuts. Even when they were arguably the greatest team we've ever seen, they turned the ball over.

It's the fatal flaw for Steph. They play better defense than everybody too, on top of being unguardable. And then the last red flag, Memphis. I know you want to do some Memphis stuff really quick. And then we'll circle back to the Friday Sunday Seltz games if there's anything left. But the job not being able to make outside shots doesn't seem like it and how everything is so dependent on him just getting to the rim. I just feel like it's going to be easy to stop in a playoff series.

And it for me lowers their ceiling. I've watched him a lot the last, I don't know, 10 plus days. I watched the Clippers loss. I watched the Phoenix win. I watched the Clippers loss. I watched the Phoenix win. I watched the Phoenix win in overtime. The Knicks loss, which could have gone either way. And they lose to San Antonio, but Jar didn't play last night. Right.

I don't think Jar or Bain played. Um, that's right. Yeah. Cause Bain was in a sick, sick hoodie. I want to be fair about Memphis, you know, cause I think that the most dismissive thing you could say is, Hey, they've never done shit. Cause I hear it a lot. Like if I talked to teams, like, Hey, who do you like? Who do you not like? What would you think

about this matchup? Whatever. There's a lot of never done shit about a million different teams because you know what? It's really hard to do when it's hard to actually do shit. Like you could even, I don't even know how Windhorst, like again, it's not a criticism of Windhorst, but I was a little shocked at how often like he was talking about how disrespected the Thunder were. Whereas once they get into the playoffs, that a lot of this stuff isn't going to work.

And that one, I don't quite understand. I don't think it's even fair to judge the Thunder as some finished product. Did he say that about this season's Thunder? He said about, I mean, do I have to bring up the quote? Cause it's, I brought it up with Slater. I was just surprised.

Yeah, I brought it up with Slater this week where he was basically saying like, man, it's not like he's pulling the entire league, but it's like a player thing. There's just players that look at the thunder, look at their regular season success. Now last year you could point to it and go, hey, look at their health and look at their available guys.

Like they had basically played, Sacramento had one of those seasons where it's like, okay, you basically ceiling doubt. Right. You tend to attend the, your luck factor. I don't understand. Like why wouldn't shade? Shea's just going to be as good.

Maybe he has a couple of games. Last year though. What do you mean? There's just this weird with that. When you say like around the league, there's a feeling like there's not a total respect. This was the Boston situation last year. So what, yeah, which team has not won that people were like, Hey,

that team's going to get it done. Well, this doesn't ever happen. This circles back to the Cleveland piece of it. Cause I think Cleveland is fucking terrifying. I've said this to you. Are you ready to pick them over Boston in a series? I want to see who's healthy on the Boston side. Okay, look, let's just think of everybody's healthy. If you said go to the head right now,

like what do I think is going to happen? I think it's going to be really hard to win a game seven in Cleveland. I think Mitchell could not be less afraid of the Boston Celtics. And he's been this way for most of the decade. He loves playing them They have two awesome guards one who didn't play Friday and they have length with with swings and they can't stop him And if it gets to a situation where there's a couple big playoff games in a series

He's gonna think he can beat whoever the best Boston guy is and he did it on Friday night He was the best guy on the floor in the second half the best Boston guys and he did it on Friday night. He was the best guy on the floor in the second half. Um, they have length, Mobly's better. Mobly was awesome in that fourth quarter on Friday. Get to see what else they did too. Is they sat Alan to close. Yeah.

Well that, but there was no porzingis, no Drew. So it's, it's hard to overreact one way or the other, but the Mitchell piece and their bench, which is real. Hunter who has always done pretty well against the Celts who has size who can at least make guys think, and they don't have to play a Coro. I think Cleveland's really good. And you know what my other reason is they don't have 10 losses.

It's March 2nd. Cleveland's good. They should be the favorite and Boston is the favorite on Fandl. They're minus 150, Cleveland's plus 270. I think Boston could beat Cleveland. Um, yeah, but think about that sentence. Like, did you think you would be saying that I think Boston could be Cleveland?

I think they could. Right. No, but Boston was the prohibitive favorites and the odds have not caught up to Cleveland yet. They're plus 270 and they're going to have home court advantage in, uh, any Boston series. That's a real thing. No person goes.

Right. Go ahead. Well, I like the way they match up against OKC too. There's some Garland stuff with them that Boston, they really went after it in the Friday game where they were like, we're just going to attack them. We're going to bully him. We're going to use our wings. And the refs were awful. My dad was the most upset about the refs that he's been in two years coming home.

Could not believe Tatum had five free throws. But you can excuse that game any way you want. That was an awesome win for Cleveland. Like they had to fall down like they did to have Tatum. Do they get the fuck out of here thing? And then for them to come back and them knowing that Mitchell might be the best guy in the series, if you're just talking about who can score in a fourth quarter on both sides. So if I'm Cleveland, I'm like delighted

by how the season's going. So Mitchell this season in three games against Boston is averaging 36, seven and four on 50 and 38. Feels even better. Splits. He's getting all the shots he wants. He gets the threes he wants, he gets theups. He wants, he gets the runners he wants. He can get to the rim and this'll be like you did that drew holiday extension,

right? You did it to make him feel good about last season, heading into playoffs, but ultimately you're trying to go back to back. And that's a lot of money for a guy who's 34 who's got now like a fucked up finger, but this is, that's going to be the series for drew holiday. That Mitchell series, what he can do against Mitchell will be the entire contract. Cause they, I don't think anyone else white doesn't seem like he can get a

handle on them and they're just putting everybody else in switches and it's going to have to be holiday. I think first of all, he's just that good. Okay. Like the best version of him. He also rejects the screen in that Dwayne Wade way where I think when you're really good at that, because I just don't know that there's enough guys

that understand when you turn the screen down and you go the other way. He also splits it. You know, again, I'm not trying to compare him to Kobe because Kobe would split screens in ways you were just like, oh my God. It's mid-2000s Wade with three point range is what he reminds me of. Cause he can get, he can get to the basket, he can get in the paint,

but he also has this three point shot that we had never had. And he's just so athletic and it just, who is the right guy to guard him when he's feeling it? Well, it's probably not Hauser. Uh, as good as Hauser holds up, like that was one of the things that I was looking at the last few days with Boston, where you okay, every one of these Houser minutes or every one of these curl handoffs

where you're getting Cornett trying to figure out which side of the paint he's gonna try to contest a shot on, like those are Przingus and Drew minutes. So even if Drew doesn't end up on him, you're now switching into whatever version of this was. And now pre Deandre Hunter, I didn't care what Mitchell did. I didn't care about what the regular season stuff. And again, it had gone Boston's way. So you could at least point to that as evidence.

But there was always a bad matchup waiting for Cleveland, whether it was finding Garland or Strews having a start on Jaylen Brown or, you know, Allen is on Tatum. They clearly like bringing Allen all the way out, away from the rim. And then the Mobley lineup is out there with Allen trying to keep him pinned to a three point shooter. So like basically you can't have Allen or Mobley

ever freelance to the rim. And I actually think in the matchups where Tatum had Allen, like he did a really good job with it because if he wasn't gonna be able to finish at the rim, he kind of knew and he had a massive game there. But that was harder. That was one of the best Tatum games he's ever had. He was like, he was just the matchups and spots he was picking. I thought he was incredible in that game.

But now that they have these Hunter minutes and they closed with Mobley, Hunter, and then the guards, cause Garland played and had his moments, even though he's been hunted. And then you have, so Cleveland now has put together spacing options and the hunter part of it, even though it's expensive. I love that they did this because now it's like, look, nobody's stopping Tatum necessarily, but at least you have somebody size wise who has a defensive thing to him. It's a chore to score against him and he can shoot threes.

Look, the point is, it's even without Przingus and Drew in there, maybe it feels like a mistake. Cleveland's the favorite. I agree with you. I couldn't believe the odds. I couldn't believe they were plus two 70 with home court. I was stunned. The thing you mentioned, 25, three, and then you went on the road. I'm glad you mentioned the Allen not playing in crunch time because I actually thought there was a chance they were going to bench Garland in crunch time and play Ty Jerome because he was so good in that game. They have different lineups they can do, right?

They can go a little smaller, they go a little bigger. They can go big in their backcourt. If they feel like Garland is too much of a defensive liability and Mitchell's feeling it, they can just yank them. And I think Atkinson has a real feel for what the team is, but, um, and he has all these different options. I guess I just don't like the default and I'm guilty of it too. Like we have a really hard time with new.

It's hard to be ahead of everybody going, you know what? Like, but if I were to listen to somebody be like Cleveland hasn't done it, Boston has, and that'd be the reason. It's ignoring a lot of basketball the reason that's not a reason it's ignoring a lot of basketball stuff. There's not a reason. Now, one thread I was on was convinced that Joe Maz didn't play Torrey Craig in that fourth quarter and did all that Hauser stuff.

Cause he didn't care about the game. Cause they're the two seed anyway. He wanted Cleveland cause Joe Maz is, you know, he, he looks at things completely different than everybody else, but he's like, I don't really care about this game. I'm going to try this and see if it works. If it doesn't work, I just won't do it. If we're actually in a playoff series, um, the poor Zingas piece, I think it's

still going to be a genuine problem for the calves and feeds healthy. That's the matchup because the other thing is he allows when Mitchell's going to the basket, now there's somebody coming over at their hand up. Who's just a little bit of a different person to contend with. And if they want to go double big, you, you still have to respect, you obviously have to respect for Zingas. Like you feel like Boston has the stretch options and we might be both making mistake declaring Cleveland the favor right now.

The whole point is, I just think they're that good, man. If we're doing percentages and it's we're going to a hundred percent, a hundred percent percentages, Boston, Cleveland, that's it. I would say it's like, you love when I do this. I would say it's like, I'm writing it down. I got my pen. I would say it's 55, 45 Cleveland in my mind. I think there's more outcomes when Cleveland beats Boston and vice versa.

And I think that game seven in Cleveland really matters and everyone always discounts this shit. And we've had some upsets. We had Minnesota go into Denver and beat them in a game seven. Like I, I know there's games where that happens, but, uh, Mitchell, this might be like a Mitchell year. I wouldn't rule it out. And it's also, he's an interesting MVP guy now because it's obviously Shane Joker as the top two and I think Tatum's third. But if Cleveland ends up like 67 and 15 with all the stuff, you almost have to have a cab in the top, it'd be weird for them not to have someone in the top three.

So, uh, it would, and it's clearly Mitchell, but amazing year by him. Kudos to him. I was a little iffy on him last year with, uh, some of the decision-making this year. I'm not. Well, they went to seven games at Orlando. Yeah. You know, and Orlando who, if you really want to have a bad time, watch them on offense this season, it's funny too, because Cleveland ran the zone where they had Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill at the top of the zone and you're looking at Orlando's

options and be like, I know what the zone, it can like mess you up a little bit. And also screws up Orlando's offenserill at the top of the zone. And you're looking at Orlando's options. I mean, like, I know with the zone, it can like mess you up a little bit. And it also screws up Orlando's offense that their top two usage guys are 30% each from three in Palo and Fron. So that's going to put a dent in your plans. Um, but I was watching this going, how can you

guys not figure out a way to attack friend of the pod, Sam Merrill and soon to be friend of the pod Ty Jerome. Like how soon to be friend of the pod. Todd, like how I know they're in zone, but like teams will stop screening with zone or they'll stop cutting. Like they just get freaked out. I mean, Orlando's offense is terrible against everybody in every incarnation. Um, but this is.

This is one of those deals where you're like, everything seems to be working out for them and they can be a really, like, you know, we could say how depth is overrated in the playoffs, but there's nothing to me that's overrated about options and they have depth. And lineups, line up options. Yeah. And okay. You think about that Friday game and again, no Drew, no KP, but Tatum had 46, 16 and nine and the Celtics lost at home. Like that's a little alarming. They Tatum had, I think the best all around regular season game I've ever seen him have. Uh, and especially the rebounds with him, which just every game now it feels like

he's going to get to 10 plus rebounds and seven plus assists. Uh, his decision making was amazing and the Celtics still lost. So if I'm Cleveland, I feel great about that. All right. I think, I think we agree on that and I would still have, okay. See, I guess the last piece we, we didn't talk about and we probably should really quick is just maybe there's not a lot to talk about that the Lakers, I just think both of us are taking them seriously as a, as a real playoff team, just because.

It's two weeks. You just have to go four and three to get to the next round. Is that a team that can go four and three every two weeks? I think it is. So I'm taking them seriously, whether I still feel like Denver is above them. And I like your idea of Denver being in the slight layer under the top three. I would still have them fourth, whether, you know, like under tiered or whoever. And then Lakers Golden state is the next two. I just think is how it have it. I wouldn't have the Knicks with those two.

I just don't know how the Knicks defense is going to be enough. It's too easy scoring them. I know they have Mitchell back now and the lack of depth is an issue. If Mitchell's there in round one, then I'm going to reconsider, but I just don't trust it. Do you? That's a massive lead. lack of depth is an issue. If Mitchell's there in round one, then I'm gonna reconsider, but I just don't trust it. Do you? That's a massive leap to be like,

that team is gonna get through, I mean, unless somebody does them a favor, so they only have to face one of the two top teams to get through it, but. How focused are you on Piston's Knicks? Cause I'm like a 10 out of 10. I love watching the Knicks though. Like even with my doubts, that Knicks Memphis game the other night.

That was awesome. We didn't really do a very good job on the Memphis thing. So let me just end it this way. Yeah. There's so much that I like about the team. I think Bain is just solid all the time. I don't know that Aldama gets enough credit. You know, they're working a couple of other pieces in.

I think the ED thing is still not necessarily great. And I don't know if it's cause Bill. He was out there in crunch time that on Friday night. He was out there in I think the ED thing is still not necessarily great. And I don't know if it's because Bill Gurley. He was out there in crunch time that, on Friday that I was shocked. Bill Gurley had kind of a tweet that was like, I'm really smart and you draft guys

are kind of fucking morons. And it was like the general premise of like overthinking something and ultimately becoming wrong when he was taken. And it's like, look, man, I think you're not really understanding the NBA part of this where there's a lot of teams that'll sit there in the war room going, Hey, the guy we're about to draft is not nearly as good as the guy we're passing on.

All right. Yeah. Like they know this, these teams are not as stupid as people want to make them out to be. But if you're a team that doesn't have a track record of attracting free agents, right? So you're not a destination franchise. You never use a cap space on anybody. Maybe you don't have necessarily trade assets. The reason why players like Edie would go a little bit later in a draft, which

we've already covered some of this stuff before, is because you feel like they're already close to their ceiling and you're like, Hey, I know that I'm in Thompson is this or Sir Thompson is this, but what if, what if this raw, like 1% athlete who we like his personality, like what, and I'm not comparing like Thompson going where he went and you know, it's, it's also different draft classes, but. There's, there's something you have to understand with teams that when they're selecting guys, they know the mistake they're potentially making, but they're thinking about the high ceiling part because the addition of talent is so

incredibly challenging in this league, more challenging, it's tougher to be a GM in basketball than any of the other sports. So for teams that are watching. What's that? I go football. incredibly challenging in this league. More challenging, it's tougher to be a GM in basketball than any of the other sports. So for teams that are watching E, what's that? I'd go football. No way. I think it's so hard to draft in football. It just seems like it's a fucking crap shoot.

But can you imagine having a top four pick right now trying to decide whether you're gonna get fired if Ken Ward doesn't work out for you? Do you wanna do this? I don't know that you're prepared to do this with me. I just think it's harder. I'm not willing to get into an hour debate about it. I just think there's more players, there's more positions. Yeah, but the cap thing is the same for everybody. There's no soft part of it. There, there's no, like, there's no massive advantage in the five destination cities in the NFL that you have in the NBA.

So if you're a have not in the NBA, like you talk and be putting together the best plan ever. Is anyone ever signing there? Right. The NFL doesn't have that. You don't even have real free agency in the NFL. So on top of like when a guy wants a trade, like, Hey, or we'll just franchise you. And you can miss out on like a top five salary at your position.

So Belichick took the kill Harry over DK Metcalf and AJ Brown. Yeah, but he, he, he can't drive receivers. So that's not a good. All right. Harry over DK Metcalf and AJ Brown. Yeah, but he, he, he can't drive receivers. So that's not a good argument. Here's the other. I traded out of the Trent McDuffie pick and passed up on George Karlaff. This to take Cole strange. I just think the draft is like, it almost like breaks their brains. How stupid some of this shit is NBA.

I NBA is more simple. It's like you going like, like your ED point. Do we want to take a guy who has a chance to be potentially like an awesome guy someday? Or do we just take 12 and nine from Zach Edie for the next five years? Memphis was like, that sounds great, we'll do that. Right, because then it becomes a debate,

is it easier to draft in the NBA or are they better at it? And I just, when it comes down to the quarterback part of it, it's something that we can't criticize for an officer getting wrong. It's the process of evaluating these guys. It's just, no one's figured it out. It's too flawed of a thing. All the, it'd like be watching somebody run really fast in basketball and his dunks are awesome.

And then being like, look at all that athleticism and quick Twitch stuff. Now he'll be good at quarterback. Cause that's the most stuff that happens there. Yeah, we both thought he was a rotation guy. We thought he was a rotation guy, but a closing guy for the Memphis Grizzlies. And that I did not see, sir. And he's also, you know, one of the best post players we've seen in college basketball recently, do you want to guess how many post-ups he has per game

right now in the league? Doesn't seem like a lot. 1.6. Yeah. And that's what you're drafting him and you're asking him to post up 1.6 times per game. So now we're fit with Ja, cause all Ja does is go to the basket. So then you have Zach Eady just kind of wandering around that.

Not, not great. You can't really post up Zach Eady and have Ja Morin. Another thing for my NFL NBA thing. We have seven conversations going on at once here, by the way. It's two hours into the pod. I'm garagging. You can't bring in a new coach in the NBA with basically the same roster and then just be a completely different team. And there's also the math of the games where a team, a couple one score possession games go their way. All of a sudden you're a four win team and you go to like a nine win team

and you're just like, man, we really figured it out. It's like now actually just recovered more fumbles. But there's very little that you can do. And then also look in the NBA with the way the drafting works. The second round guys, again, the second round thing was like the most overrated thing ever. And people just loved that Henke was stockpiling

all these second round picks, but it was so fucking stupid. There's no NBA draft part where you're like, oh, in the fourth round have we grabbed an all pro middle linebacker. Right. That doesn't happen. So I don't know. Maybe we can, maybe we can do this on the hitshowringer.com.

Team debate. Team debate? Maybe we can maybe we can do this on the hit show ringer.com The hit show? Team debate? I don't know. The more drafts I watch, sometimes it seems like easier than ever. Like Zach Eaddy clearly was going to be a rotation guy. I couldn't believe there was even a dialogue about it. He's seven foot five and he has good hands. You're going to get four good years out of him.

Wait, so now I don't even know if we're arguing the same exactity point. Do you like, how about we do this? Do you like Memphis in the playoffs? No, I don't. I don't like Memphis or Houston. I just think it's too early for both of them. But is it too early for Memphis?

Cause that's something, like this has been a very weird three year stretch for this team. Okay. Say the least. Yeah. So you go back to 22 and I always liked Memphis. I liked their rawness, their anti-establishment, you know, the next generation of,

of grit and grind. And then when they played whooped that trick in game five against gold state, when they killed him. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I actually, I think I did a monologue cause Chris Vernon sent me just a tear emoji after the open where I went, I want Golden State to beat their fucking brains in when they play in game six.

Cause I was like, you guys are really, really feeling yourself. You're down three, two in a series. Maybe don't play. It was, it was elimination game three, one to three, two, but it was, it was a lot. Maybe don't play it was it was elimination game three one to three two But it was it was a lot. It was a lot from those guys and so then you have the jive shoes then you have the injury issues and so like that was a They had a seed not that long ago when they were hurt against the Lakers right where No one gave him a chance necessarily in that series. That was the Dylan Brooks thing

And everybody but everybody ended up not liking him all that much where no one gave him a chance necessarily in that series. That was the Dillon Brooks thing. Pretty banged up. Everybody ended up not liking him all that much. So this is kind of like year four of this group, but I don't know that it's like, oh, they're incapable because they haven't done anything when they weren't really fully formed in all these versions except for 22. Well, don't you feel like they're a regular,

they're like a regular season team that I just have less faith in the playoffs about because of, I don't know. I just think teams are going to have better options in crunch time when we get to April, May. And they're trading baskets in the fourth quarters. I just, I don't think their defense is as good as I thought it was going to be. The teams put up big point numbers on them. You notice that? They're way more run and gun than I think I was expecting from them this year.

Yeah, but they're defensive numbers because I looked it up. No, I know, but they'll have these games where they're like 126 to 125, shit like that. That Knicks game was a wild game. That was like not a, I will say, not a defensive game. Yeah, so I got, I have the same six that I had before. Um, and next,

Hey, Robinson looks awesome for them. Maybe we could reevaluate that in a month. You want to do a quick deep dive before we go? I do. What do you want? Um, you go, we can do it fast. We'll do it in like three minutes. I just, I'm still on the pyramids to be honest with you. Okay. Any, any new news with the pyramids?

Yeah. Just because like the last guy that built a pyramid after his, you know, the lineage of, of rulers, um, he was like, okay, well, my grandfather did this and then my father did this. So how about we do this? I'll build a slightly smaller pyramid. because the other guys, like, you really had to sacrifice because basically people were like, Hey, these pyramids take a fucking long time and a lot of resources, and maybe this isn't the

sweetest deal for your constituents. Right. So I liked that it was, it was almost like an ideological shift of the pharaohs. That it was like, if we're gonna do a pyramid, how about just going a little smaller? Yeah. It felt like a real transition of like, I still gotta do one.

I still gotta do one. But I'm gonna take it easy on you guys. Did they ever master the pyramids? Was there ever a moment where like with baseball, where they, they just figured out guys got to get on base and that's get down base any way you can. So is there a pyramid? Is there a pyramid version of OBP that matches not putting the ball in play in too many relievers?

Yeah. That's my question. Yeah, I would say probably right at the end of the third dynasty maybe. I could have my tables wrong, but yeah. I'll check on that. What do you got? I really, Ben and I watched Shane Gillis on SNL last night

and had a great time and laughed a lot. And I started thinking about how I think he could have been the biggest star on the show in the last 10 years. And that set me down a long deep dive of how he didn't end up on the show. And that was watching different clips. And there was, well, I will leave that aside. Um, there, but there's all this different videos and stuff. And one of them was this like two minute video of Louis CK,

just blistering Shane Gillis, like half, half fun, but half whatever. Cause he was so mad that he was doing an ad, but also about to throw the podcast to a Patreon. And he was like, how much money do you need to make from this podcast? Do you really need the money that bad? And Shane Gillis is like, I actually do. But I was just down this whole Shane Gillis rabbit hole thinking about how interesting it would have been if he had just become like Will Ferrell on SNL.

And I don't think I was alone with that last night because I thought some of the stuff last night was great. The monologue was as awkward as it's ever been. It's just such a bizarre fit of performer and audience, like whoever's in that crowd, where they're just, the band behind them, which a lot of people were pointing out, the band's like, can we laugh at that one?

Can we do that? But his sketches and the couple of beers thing was fucking great. I thought they really felt like they were pushing the envelope a little bit in a way that reminded me of some of the best eras of the show. And it was just like, man, what, this would have been so interesting if there's this alternate universe where he's just on the shit, like nothing happens.

He never says the dumb shit and it never comes back to haunt them. And he's just on the show, just kind of doing that same ride at that, like Wolf Farrell did and Phil Hartman, some of these other guys, like what would have been the destiny of that? Anyway, I was deep diving that for an hour last night because I couldn't sleep. I saw the couple of beers thing. I haven't watched it yet. I did watch the monologue because I mean, he even talked about the first monologue.

I think he was nervous. Like it was shocked. He was so good. I've seen him think four times now whenever he's around, like I want to make sure I can go check it out. And look, I like them, but last night, I think there's still this disconnect if people can't understand where he's at and even though. It's like that stop start thing.

He does. If you're not used to it, you're kind of like, what's he doing? Yeah. Like there was obviously like peak, whatever, you know, political lines you want to argue like SNL was aligned with. I think there was a peak where it was probably like a lot for anybody. Like I remember they did a news, a weekend news thing or whatever. And they went to some correspondent that was talking about the movie lineup and that essentially every movie

was centered around white male rage, right? And so whoever the correspondent was that was doing the spoof was just yelling like white male rage, white male rage. And I wasn't offended as a white male. I was offended because it was so fucking stupid. It just wasn't funny at all. I felt like because of wherever we were at in our discussions, at least as a country at the time,

it was like almost a cool thing to try to do. And it just didn't work. It wasn't really funny. And now I've looked at different SNL clips. It's like, oh, you can see the shift a little bit. Be like, maybe some of this pandering stuff that we were doing, or maybe it was people internally that worked on the show were like,

no, these are important things that we're going to do. You can see there's been a very clear shift of like, let's actually start making fun of both sides a little bit more than we were. So then I don't know if that sets the tone for like what Gillis is walking into, but I think some people look at Gillis and think, he talks about Trump, when he comes out and says, I'm going to miss Trump

being in debates, that for some people is like's like this massive red flag that goes off. You're like, oh, this guy's a Trump guy. You know, he's white, he's from PA. Like, clearly he's a Trump guy. Then he goes right for Biden right after. Right. So I don't think, first of all, I don't think he's a conservative. Some people think he is.

And the way that, like, that'll hap. Like it'll happen with certain people. Like they'll already be like triggered to go, Oh no. Like this is a Trump, a pro Trump comedian out here. Cause he just said, I'm gonna, and then he makes fun of Trump the whole fucking time. So he's kind of just making fun of everybody there the whole time. I'd ask you this though, like him getting bounced.

I knew who he was, but not as, as good. And then pretty quickly I was like, man, this guy is, he's probably my favorite going right now. I think he's really smart on top of being like, the guys that play the goofy thing, but also are incredibly smart with the way they structure the stuff that they're doing is always going to like make me want, like I'm like, okay, I'm in.

This isn't just set up, set up joke or whatever. I think there's some layers to the stuff that he's doing. That's really impressive to me. But do you think, do you think that changed? Cause it, at the time it felt like, and I'm doing a bad job with this. That was the best thing that happened to him. Cause it put him on everybody's radar, but you think the longterm ceiling for him back to the Zach, I don't think it was the best thing.

I think, I think it was bad for him. Okay. You do go. Yeah, I do. I think it set him back a couple of years. Um, but, and, but ultimately it became part of his story and he got over it. But, um, you know, I don't think it was, I don't think it was good for him. That, that thing that really helped him was put in that communist special on YouTube. And it was just great. The one, I think he did it in Austin, whatever. That was the one when Ben was like, who's this guy? And we were just, we'd watch it over and over again. And we thought, oh, I think he did in Austin, whatever. That was the one when Ben was like, who's this guy?

And we were just, we'd watch it over and over again. And we thought it was just so fucking funny. Like the Trump stuff, everything. The ISIS thing, when I saw the ISIS thing live in Arizona, I mean, he just had everybody. I mean, his whole premise was, and again, like that's a pretty good example of what we're talking about. I don't think he actually is cheering for ISIS. But his whole story and playing it out

of getting you to understand why he's rooting for ISIS for all of the reasons that he's laying out, like that's brilliant shit, man. Yeah, well, and that's also, that was the bones of SNL and it was a lot of the SNL 50 stuff when they're going back through the old cast and you think like that seventies cast, especially part of what made, made that great was they just didn't give a shit. They tried everything.

And now you think he has a Sandler like potential Sandler timeline that's not reachable now. What do you mean? Well, if he's, if he's the main guy and he's really funny, he's on SNL for 10 years feels long today. I think it would have been like five years. And I think he probably would have done standup stuff and then I don't know what the next thing is, but I think he'd be, I think it would have been really good for

him. And I also think the show needed somebody like him, which was, I think the reason Lauren, the new Lauren book that came out has a little piece on it. Like he wanted a different type of cast member than they had and somebody that did a lot of stuff Shane did. So I think it would have been really good for him. I also think he would have played Trump, which would have been huge for him because he's really good at it and you've seen him do it a bunch of times.

Anyway, good deep dive. Anything you got to plug before we go? Ty Jerome Thursday. Oh, Les Claypool. Primus Tuesday. I already taped it. Really? Thursday. Oh, Les Clay pool Primus Tuesday. Birdie taped it. Really?

Yeah. Congrats. We're good luck with the facial hair. I will see you in a week. We'll see what's changed in the world of basketball. Good to see you. Thanks to Sarudy and Kyle and Gahow as well. Don't forget you can watch this

on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and you can watch it as a video on Spotify as well. I will see you. New rewatchable's coming Monday night. We did an Oscar winner, Rossello. I'll text you about it, keeping it secret. Who do you want to win the Oscar? Oh, we're taping this for the Oscar.

I was really hoping Mikey Madison would win best actress because I thought that was the best performance I saw this year, but it doesn't like as we're taping this doesn't seem like she's going to win. I thought she was great. I thought she was awesome. Best pick. I think Onora is going to win and by default was probably, but I didn't see the Brutalist. So I'm not going to pretend I'm Wesson Morris. I just still didn't see it. I will at some point. I just didn't see it. And then I didn't do the thing where it's like, I got to see every movie before, you know, I just didn't get to it yet. I'll say that at some point. What do you have? I only watched those two movies or I saw Dune.

So it's not Chalamet at the Lakers game. I know he was sitting a couple of rows in front of me. I wanted to go up to him and be like, Hey, here's the deal. It's not about me. Will you go on with Bill? He's not going to be able to do it. me. I wanted to go up to him and be like, Hey, here's the deal. It's not about me. Will you go on with Bill? Here's the come on with both of us. Yeah, no, no, I want you to just I want you to ice. I want you to hunt him like Darius Garland. I think it's very clear. Chalamet would come on with you if he knew the request was in. I feel like people don't know how big of a deal.

I think there's a pretty big PR armada. Yeah. It's gonna happen, I'm not worried about it. They're turning down everything, but any kid that waits outside of MSG to meet a Mari Stoudemire when he's 10 or 11, that guy wants to go, he already name checked you. So this is an auto, so I thought,

is there any way I'll get a, but as I've gotten older, I'm like, I'm never going up to anybody anymore. Yeah, it sucks. Cause it just, it doesn't work. You can come up to me. I'll be over here. Bracillo, see you next Sunday. See. I don't have a few years with him. On the wayside, on the brink of so long, I never said I don't have a few years with him. It must be 21 plus in President-elect states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC. Gambling problem?

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