The Bill Simmons Podcast - Tatum’s No-No-Yes Game, Jokic Runs Amok, KD’s Lost Year, and GSW-LAL Predictions With Kevin Hench and Rob Mahoney

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Hench to discuss the Celtics tying up their series with the Sixers, Jayson Tatum’s rollercoaster game, and which fan base should be more afraid in Game 7 (1:20). Then, he chats with Rob Mahoney about the Nuggets closing out the Suns, Nikola Jokic’s incredible run, and whether the Suns can get better this offseason (45:23), before closing out by discussing whether the Warriors can force Game 7 against the Lakers (1:02:22), and can the Heat close out the Knicks (1:12:20). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin Hench and Rob Mahoney Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and we'll be breaking it down on Sunday night. So stay tuned for that and check out the ringer.com for all of our succession coverage. Don't forget to listen to the watch with Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan as well coming up on this podcast. So I booked my craziest Boston fan, Frank, Kevin Hensch, win or lose. We're going to talk about Boston Philly game six. Holy shit. Was that a game. And then Rob Mahoney, live on location from Denver-Phoenix. He's there in Phoenix for game six. He's going to hop on to break down that series

and everything we saw in that one as well. What a podcast, my friends. First, our friends from Pro All right. Taping this first part of the podcast. It is 7.15 Pacific time. I invited my friend Kevin Hench, who you've heard on this podcast. He's my craziest Boston fan friend. And it just felt like tonight was going to be a crazy game six Celtics Sixers. And win or lose, it was like, Hench, you're coming on. If we blow this, we'll just have a stroke for 30 minutes.

If we win, we'll also have a stroke for 30 minutes. If we win, we'll also have a stroke for 30 minutes. What we didn't expect was a referendum on our beloved 25-year-old Jason Tatum's career, which in progress started to feel like the Will Smith, Chris Rock, Oscar slap, where I was like, not only is the season over, but is his career ever going to be the same? Can he come back from this? And then all of a sudden he starts hitting threes. The Sixers go cold. And we're going home with a win.

And it all happened in, what, four minutes? Is your head spinning? I'm a mess, as you know. I was prepared to talk to you about the, the, the gut punch loss. And what I was going to ask you, which is still applies as we face the game seven is like, does your dad still grind the way we do? Or is there some relief insight for us? Like, do we ever get beyond this? I, the answer is we never get beyond this. My dad still has not recovered from the end of the Bruins season. He's still talking about it. I think you pass the age of 35,

and you kind of are who you are in all aspects of your life, including this. And we've won some titles, and people are like, Boston fans, I don't want to hear it. You guys have won. It's like, I don't want to hear it. You guys have won. It's like, I don't know any other way to be. I'm sorry. Well, especially with the, you know, I mean, as you know, I've been on the Bruins from November.

I was like, this, you know, this team is special. You even sucked me in. I was, I have not, obviously have not recovered from that. I'm sure your dad hasn't either. And then, and then this just coming coming so on the heels of that and you know obviously a clear path to a title it's right there for us and it's like we're gonna we're gonna brogdon in game one throws the ball to maxi as the shot clock expires and then tonight when tatum got caught in the air in the middle of his one for

14 start and just throws the ball to Harden, I'm like, oh my God, those are the bookends to this horrible series. And then, but wait, hold on. You, you left out the, the meat in the sandwich, which was Jalen jumping off of, uh, Carden in the corner. So he could double and bead who had missed like eight straight shots. You forgot that. Yes, right. And then, of course, two-thirds of the way through this game, Jalen went down in a heap on a wet spot. And I'm like, every time Jalen goes down, I'm like, that's that.

He's going to be hurt. And so I was breathless for two and a half hours. And then, because the Sixers are still the Sixers which I I kind of forgot I did you know there were moments where I was like wow we're just gonna we were up 16 and we're gonna throw this thing away and then I was like oh right we always it's it's a little bit like uh you know Malcolm Butler it's like the other team can still do things that can salvage this for you. And the Sixers who, you know, when, when they got the book, they, the clear path foul, which was crazy, the wrong guy shooting the clear path foul free throws, never seen that before.

And then sending the other guy to shoot those free throws later, subsequent possessions later, that was crazy. But the Sixers being up to with the ball and the Celtics basically dead. I mean, you right before we came on, you went through that two minute stretch where. Yeah, let's let's go through that because this really was the Super Bowl of teams or fan bases that at least for this year, don't trust their basketball team because you have the Sixers with the history of Doc, the history of Harden, the history of just bad luck really since 1983

and things falling apart for them left and right. And then you have our team where we've been in these games for four years. And I was texting you before, I even tweeted this, that I felt like the Celtics had to win by 10 plus or it was a loss. Because that's just been the kind of team and

the crunch time kind of team they've been. So we get to that clear path thing you mentioned, they're up two. And Tatum at this point is one for 14 with I think four turnovers. And I'm getting texts from people in my life, like people, sometimes people I haven't heard from in months and they're like, what's wrong with Tatum? Is there something wrong with him? Is he hiding a surgery? Does he have issues? He was so bad, people think he couldn't have just been bad. You're like, he was so bad.

You're like, he has to be in surgery by midnight or this is unacceptable. He was so bad. Does he have a torn rotator cuff? What's happening? So Maxie hits the free throws and then they just exchange some bricks and Harden misses a step back with 429 left. That would have put the Sixers up five.

Tatum comes down in the corner and beat on him. And it was a no, no, no, yes shot. It was a classic, like it's the kind of shot Marcus Smart takes. We're like, no, Marcus. But I'm saying no to Jason Tatum, our best player, because he hasn't made anything and looks like he's lost the ability to even be coordinated. He makes that and beat misses a pull up, comes back down. Tatum makes a second three.

In the span of 40 seconds, six points, we're up four. They call timeout. Maxie misses a three. Tatum gets blocked. Maxie makes one or two free throws. Smart makes a floater. Tucker misses a three. Coach is challenged.

They miss again. And then Tatum hits another three. And what did it feel like two seconds we're up eight with two minutes left and they're walking up like they're done and Marcus goes they miss again and Marcus goes

yeah I should probably no I'm actually going to speed up into three guys here it's like you can't even let us enjoy this for five seconds this Tatum thing though hench we've this guy has been in our life since 2017 and every year the celtics have been a playoff team and evad runs almost every one of those years and we've been waiting and waiting and waiting for him to at least have like the devon booker what's happened to devon booker this year

and there's been glimpses this This year, there was a lot of regression. There's some weird shot selection. It was either threes or hard drives to the basket with nothing in between anymore. And it just felt like his brain was breaking. Well, mine was breaking. And yours was breaking too. But I went to a dark place

because it reminded me of the Kobe 6-for-24 finals game when Kobe finally rallied in the fourth quarter. But I was thinking like, if they lose this game, like this is going to follow Tatum, like a Scarlet letter. This will be like the Tatum game. Scarlet B for brick. So, you know, of course we're going to all the same dark places simultaneously, but I was also going to that place of like no no this you know Bill is the basketball historian he knows what Tatum did in game six against Milwaukee last year there are always these hurdles in a star's career and once you clear them then you're that guy you're that

guy and you're not this guy so I was like oh who is he is he this guy um and because he just completed the greatest five for 21 in nba history scoring 16 outscoring the sixers 16 13 in the fourth you know he salvages we don't we don't have to stay in that dark place all summer because our guy might still be the guy. It's basically like you're engaged to somebody and two months before the wedding, they come to you and they just have the craziest hour and a half of their life. And then all of a sudden it's fine. And the moment just passes and you kind of agree never to talk about it again. That's how I feel about the one for 14 with four turnovers. He had plays.

He couldn't go by George Niang. I know. When George Niang locked him down, that's when you're like, there's something wrong. Maybe he has been over-served. Right. From a basketball standpoint. Because this has been coming for a few games with him

where he just didn't totally look right offensively. But it all came back. Did you see his interview at the end? Yes. He's like, look, I'm one of the best players in the world, and it's a long game. And it was a great answer. He's like, you know, it's a two-and-a-half-hour game.

I figured the shots were going to fall. And it's like, you could have fucking told us, Jason, because I was having a heart attack. You know, it's funny, the analogy about, you know, these, these relationships we enter into. And of course, like we're, you know, we're so, we're so pathetic that we, you know, we start feeling actual animus towards these, these good guys, you know, by all accounts, you know yeah by all accounts you know Jason Tatum is a great guy um but going planning on a post-mortem about the end of the Celtics season I was thinking specifically about your and my relationship with Marcus Smart over the years that no basketball relationship has ever been as high and low and rocky and like he's put us through so much and i have to say

he played well tonight i mean he was great crazy passes but he really like you know marcus smart is the kind of guy where you're like i don't know how talented a basketball player that guy is but he is getting the maximum out of whatever he has at all times. And so watching Tatum, who's so talented, it felt like squander the season. I was like, oh no, this can't be happening. You don't want your best player taking a shot. And by the way, when they have Niang and Harden on the court at the same time, why can't we get a good shot? And you texted me, why are we going to the rim? Hench and I are going to say we like we're on the team.

So apologies in advance. Why are we going to the rim and then contorting our bodies? Like we're playing Twister instead of just going to the rim and trying to dunk or trying to drop fouls. It was so goes to the rim like a 40 foul shooter he goes to the rim like the worst thing that can happen is if i get fouled like mitchell robinson like it's like go to the rim like he shoots fadeaway layups like avoiding contact um right and he's a good free throw shooter which is the other frustrating thing. So I,

I, you know, we, I mean, we talk about this all the time. It's like, we want, you know,

when Tatum gets to the line, the Celtics win, like just go, you know, you know, force, get, get the switch and then force that guy to foul you.

But those, those threes at the end, you know, they become the defining entry, the chapter, you know, that, that. I mean, it was going to be the Tatum game and now it's the Tatum game. It's the Tatum. Yeah. It's like the Tatum resurrection game. My friend Haral Bob, who's been on this podcast many times, he texted me between the third and fourth quarter and he's like, what do you do with Tatum? And I was like, I actually wouldn't play him. I think he's unplayable,

but I think Joe's going to play him because he's the best guy on the team. And that's kind of what you have to do. Joe Missoula, who hasn't made a decision all year, was not going to go Hauser Tatum. Well, I was thinking about Joe Missoulala's response you know this that that when jalen said i want to guard harden that that allegedly joe missoula said ask marcus no and then you see these huddles where horford is doing all the talking yeah it's like this is unacceptable man in these games this is really important we we have to this is not the bad news bears where you just need an adult to sign the form and drive the van. Like this is a real job.

You think he's the gardener and bad news bears are breaking training? Exactly. Just showing up, greeting the parents. Hello, how are you? Hello, how are you? The Marcus Smart piece of this, and we're not finished talking about Tatum yet, but the Marcus Smart piece of this, and we're not finished

talking about Tatum yet, but the Marcus Smart piece of this, he was awesome for the first two and a half quarters of this game. He was the best guy on the floor. And then, you know, he has to do the Marcus, the bounce pass through the three guys. He's got to try that one out. By the way, those

passes to Rob, Time Lord only scores if he catches it and dunks it at the rim. These passes, you think Time Lord's going to bend down and catch a ball at his ankle and then do a drop step? What's he going to do even if this terrible pass gets to him. Yeah. Well, so Smart kind of went off, kind of went sideways. So then it became one of those, this happens with the Celtics sometimes where when Tatum sucks, Jalen kind of gains energy and strength from it. Where it's kind of like, it's a combination he's played with Tatum so long

where he goes, oh, he doesn't have it. I'm going to step up. But I also think he kind of enjoys it because, you know, he's like the, Tatum's the favored son in the family, right? And Jalen's like, we love Jalen too, but he knows he's kind of not totally the favorite son. So he really embraces these moments. And then he wipes out on a wet spot. It looks like his career's over. They don't stop the game, by the way.

He's pointing the wet spot. They wouldn't even bring the mop out. They wouldn't dry it. No, the one thing I will say right from the opening jump was that the defensive intensity never wavered. It was crazy how quickly they were rotating, how they were sending guys, recovering. And so when you end up with 86 points in the modern NBA, that is an incredible defensive effort. And when you see that lineup going big with Time Lord and Horford, but everyone being super active right out of the gate,

it was reminding us of the Celtics. Remember what a great defensive team we used to be? Right. Well, we thought they won this game that they would have to make a ton of threes, basically, because they hadn't played defense all playoffs. I'd kind of given up on them as a defensive team. So I was like, well, we're just going to have to outscore them. They're 15 for 35 from three, which is 43%.

The defense, and I felt in the first quarter, it actually felt like we should have been up like 20. Well, obviously, if our guy shoots 40%, we're up by 20. But even take out the Tatum stuff. The Celtics team loves the unforced

error turnovers, like the drive-in traffic where you throw it backwards, but the guy wasn't there or the, or the pass that gets tipped. And they kind of let the Sixers hang around, hang around, hang around. All of a sudden it was like five and the Sixers weren't playing well and the crowd was getting into it. And Embiid looked like he was, you know, defensively he was, he's been really good in this series. I felt like he ran out of gas a little. He did seem tired. I mean, in terms of like not taking over the game down the stretch, like give me the ball and make them send guys to me, but his ability to move his feet on faster

guys and, and block their shots. I mean, you know, Jalen, Jalen, I love the fact that Jalen does take it hard to the rim, but there were a couple of times where you're like, know, Jalen, Jalen, I love the fact that Jalen does take it hard to the rim, but there were a couple of times where you're like, Hey, Jalen, have you been watching this series? Cause he's going to block that every time. And, and sure enough, he took it. He took it at Embiid, the play where Embiid blocks Jalen's shot and saves it in bounds. There were just like a moment where you're like, we can't win this game.

There's no way we're going to win this game. Like that's the Embiid play they're going to show when they're showing the six or highlight package. But then yeah, a bit of a vanishing act for the MVP in the final four minutes. And maybe not totally, I have to watch it again. Cause we're taping this right after, but they were, they were jacking up threes. Let's take a break because I want to talk about Missoula. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular

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I'm going to be doing a same game parlay for a Sunday game seven. Could it be Celts Sixers? Could it be something else that pops up on Friday night? We will see, but it's going to happen. There's no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sports book. Go to Fando.com slash BS.

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888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. 809 with it in Indiana. 800-522-4700 or visit ksgamblinghelp.com in Kansas. 877-770-STOP in Louisiana. 800-327-5050 or visit mahelpline.org slash problemgambling in Massachusetts, visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, 877-8-HOPE-NY, or text HOPE-NY in New York, 800-522-4700, Wyoming, or 1800gamber.net in West Virginia. All right, so our guy, Joe Mazzulla, who we've been,

he's a first year coach trying to be nice. Doesn't exactly have a robust coaching staff around him. Starts out finally with two adjustments. He realized before game six

that you could adjust during the series. Starts Horford and Williams together. Wait till he hears about timeouts. Wait till he hears about timeouts. Timeouts round three, baby. Timeouts.

But starts the two big guys. The defense comes back. We start to look a little like last year. The other thing he does, well, he also played the three guards of the wing in a big lineup, which I've been waiting for all series because I think the Sixers are slow.

The other thing he does, he only plays seven guys. He does the old, if we're going down, here's my seven. So Grant Williams doesn't play, nobody plays. White only played 19 minutes. Brogdon played 30. And he basically, he rode everybody.

I got to give him credit for sticking with Tatum. And he really only took Tatum out for, I think, two minutes in the third quarter. But continuing to run plays for him, he tried to start posting them up in the fourth quarter, tried to get them in the free throw line, I think, two minutes in the third quarter, but continuing to run plays for him. He's trying to start posting them up in the fourth quarter, tried to get him the free throw line, which happened and just try to kind of, instead of quitting on him, he's basically like, well, we're going nowhere in the playoffs if you suck anyway. So I might as well ride you toward the wall and it worked. Well, you know, I think about Bazooka Joe, Missoula all the time, obviously way too much. And maybe it's the 10,000 texts on our Boston sports thread about him. But I know like, you know, you built an empire.

You're you know, we're both Boston sports jackasses who've been elevated to like the big boy chair where it's like, oh, you're the boss. Like everyone's looking at you to make a decision. And I promise you the first time that happened for me, I was not ready for it. I was like, why is everyone looking at me? Cause you're the boss. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding. I'm a jackass who writes jokes. Why am I the boss? And like, that's like, that's how it works. You're the showrunner. Everyone's going to look at you all the time. The wardrobe ladies are going to ask you questions. I'm like, I don't know anything about wardrobe. I've just seen that look in Missoula's eyes so many times where it's like, yeah, he doesn't want to call timeout.

Like I wouldn't have wanted to call timeout because it's going to look like he's not in charge when Al Horford tells them or Marcus Smart says what play to run. Right. No, you're right. It happened to me when Grantland started and it was the same thing. You're making this then even at the ringer in a much bigger way where it's like, oh, yeah, I ultimately have to make every single decision. It's paralyzing.

For Joe, it's literally been paralyzing because he doesn't call timeouts. A hundred people go ask bill. Like that's ever asked bill, you know? And so it's like, so it's like, you know, I mean,

I texted it like three days ago, but it's like, I do think Greg Popovich would just go 16 and three with the Celtics team and, and, and go to the duck boat parade. Like I, this team,

this roster, when you look where this roster ended last year and then you add Malcolm Brogdon, are you kidding me? Right. Well, and then in a better version of way too. So the Tatum piece of this, now if they get past Philly

and they get to the next round, this becomes a fun game to think about in retrospect. Oh, that game when Tatum went one for 14 and then he hit the threes and we knocked out Philly. Flipping to the other side, if you're a Philly fan and you're home and you're up 3-2 in the series and your MVP's playing pretty well and the best guy on the other team is having a meltdown.

Like when the Kobe game happened in 2010, game seven, he was at least home, you know? And when he made one, the crowd was able to really try to get in. But there was like real, especially in that third quarter in that game, there was a lot, like the Laker fans were like shell-shocked. They were like, this guy,

this is going to haunt this guy for the rest of his career, unless he gets his shit together. In Philly, it's different because they're rooting for him to fail. And then it flips like that. And now if you're a Philly fan, like, what do you think? Well, you got to think you obviously missed, not just you're at home, but you're at home with their best player going five for 21 even after he catches fire he ends up five for 21 so it's funny when you when you texted me about the kobe game i was like

i was like i think it was six for 24 and that was at halftime tatum was over 10 and i'm like six before i take six for 24 right now six for 24 24 would be six for 14. We'd probably win the game. Five for 21 turned out to be good enough. But if you're a Sixer fan, I mean, obviously you're disconsolate. You're like we were 27 minutes ago. But, yeah, first of all, the Celtics, as I texted you in the AM, seven and nine in their last 16 home games in the playoffs. So no, you know, obviously it's not a done deal. Yeah. It's not like we're home. We got this in a game seven.

It's definitely not feeling that way. Yeah. It's not the 86 Celtics. It it's, you know, it could happen again. You know, but I got to think that's a tough, even though it's a short trip, it's a tough trip for the Sixers. Wow. Well, can I give you, this is another thing I'd be thinking about if I was a Philly fan.

James Harden, four for 16, five turnovers. That was his game six. Tobias Harris, another guy they don't. I don't understand who, how can he be both guys? How can he be the legitimate MVP in games one and four, right? Can I get him right? And then a liability in other games. It's bizarre.

And his body language, you know, he does this thing where he gets, he gets into a really good spot in the lane where he used to just drop that floater in all the time. And then he like kicks it, or he makes a crazy decision it's or, you know, or he torches us for 45 that, yeah. Talk about a, a mercurial, tough to tough to fathom what, what that guy's going to give you on any night. Well, we were aging basketball players once back when we still played. You still shoot

recreationally. Yeah, I'm a nine-year-old. By the way, for the audience, Hench was an incredible pickup basketball player back in the day. I'm talking about you like you're dead. But as you get old, you have that one day, like the one run where it's like, man, I was hitting everything. That felt great. And then you have the next day where it's like, God, I felt like I had two left arms. Maybe that's the stage James Harden's in. He's just like the old guy in pickup where it's like, you don't know if he's going to be good or not. I hope so. Because when he and Embiid are both playing well, as we said, it's like they've had the two best players in the series.

Yeah. And then when they put Maxie on the strong side with them in that corner and they get into their action and force the rotation. And, you know, Maxie's a nice player. I mean, he, you know, he hit a three that hit a three that then time Lord was like, Oh, right. That's not PJ Tucker. We're not supposed to let him shoot. So he did the crazy closeout. Maxie goes baseline and dunks it. It's like, Oh, that's not Grant Williams in the corner. That's a super athlete. Who's who's just waiting for them to rotate. And, and so, yeah, the Embiid-hardened screen roll with Maxie standing in the corner is terrifying

and still unclear how we held them to 13 points in the fourth quarter. I thought that was a very good adjustment by them because the Rob thing really worked because they did that thing they did last year that they haven't done as much this year where they have Rob basically guarding the guy stuck in the corner, but then floating around like the free safety. And really he looked like Rob again. He looked like last year's Rob. He was

flying around and then the Sixers kind of used it against the Celts. And then I was waiting for them to just take Rob out. I was like, all right, we got two and a half quarters out of that. Now let's go to the three guards or something like that. But Rob was out there for a big chunk of the fourth quarter. Don't you feel like you can tell every time PJ Tucker's going to make it or not make it like it, it has to be completely in rhythm and it has to be in the absolute corner. If he's like four and a half inches to the right of the deep corner, I'm like, that's going to be a brick. Or if there's any kind of like a bobble or a dribble, like he's not going to make it. So I do think the living or dying with the P.J. Tucker corner three is if you have to give him something, that's probably the right thing to do.

You certainly don't want to give Bang Bang Niang an open look. Oh, my God. That was a low point when Niang blew the roof off the – I want to call it the spectrum. He blew the roof off the place. Well, and then he did the point to the crowd thing. Tobias Harris was good defensively today, but he was one for seven. Not awesome.

Embiid was only nine for 19. I say only because he only took 19 shots. Embiid, every game, Embiid shoots a lower percentage than it felt like he shot in the game. Every game, you go 10 for 23,

nine for 19. Every game, you're like, I thought he was 9 for 12. Well, so we're heading into this game 7 now, which is Sunday with two days rest, which is great for Harden. You have two teams here that

I don't know what happens to the team that loses that game 7. If you're Philly, you blew a 3-2 and you blew a chance to close at home. Harden's a free agent. I don't know how Embiid's going to react to it. I don't know if Doc Rivers would come back from that. I just don't know what the ramifications would be. And then for the Celtics, I find it hard to believe they would bring back the nucleus.

And by nucleus, I mean like the top seven. I find it hard to believe they would just run that back after losing games one, five, and seven at home in a round two series. It can't happen. It can't happen. But you said, I think, I don't know if you texted it to me or you tweeted it, but I think Doc is now 17-32 in elimination games. Yeah, I was watching. I texted you it.

ESPN had some graphic that he had the third worst record in elimination games. It was like, was it 15-18, something like that? No, I'm sorry, 15-31? 17-31, I think is what you, that's what it was. We did. And then he just lost. But it is funny when, when Doris is just going on one of her jags about what an unbelievable coaching job he's doing while they're losing game six at home in a closeout game, he's doing the doc rivers thing of not closing out a series,

famously up 3-1 against the Rockets with the best Clippers team of all time, right? This is what Doc does. Doc holds some other records, like maybe only coach to blow two 3-1 leads with separate teams. Like multiple game sevens at home. Yeah, so he's now 17-32 with the chance to clinch a series, which is just an actually crazy number. I gotta say though,

I'm not sure what else they could have done in the game today. Like they had the lead with five minutes left. I thought they played really hard defensively. I, you know, they're probably two players short. You know, he called the timeout and they came out of a timeout, and they got a great shot, and it went in. Doc has always been able to do that, and this becomes a huge shock to you,

but we're not great after timeouts. I mean, he's only called three all season, but Missoula does not draw up the same high percentage success plays. What do you think the Missoula post game in the locker room kind of, I just, I wonder what that locker room was like. Cause Tatum's like, yeah, I had it all along.

Cause they, they showed the Tatum and Jalen had this long hug right after the game. And Jalen was just laughing. Those guys love each other. I don't think, you know, it's always funny to, you got to split them up,

got to do whatever, but those guys, they love each other and they want to win a title's always funny. You got to split them up, got to do whatever. But those guys, they love each other and they want to win a title together. So that got me a tiny bit emotional watching those guys react like that. When you sent me Missoula's entire coaching resume

as the main lobster claws or something. I don't know. They were like, I was like, what's going on? It was a D2 team. He was an assistant, then the head coach, then it was the main Lobster Claws. And then it was assistant coach Celtics, head coach Celtics.

Yeah, it was something like that. It was rough. It was rough. Will Hardy, like, what was the timing? Will Hardy could be on the precipice of winning a title. Well, think about it. If you were pitching Joe Mazzulla as a sports movie, and you were like, all right, so this team that made the finals, this guy's like the fourth assistant.

He's not even sitting in the front row with the coaches. He's in the second row with the backup coaches. And the coach has something happen that was improper. He has to go. Will Hardy gets hired by Utah. Damon Stoudivar gets hired by Georgia Tech during the season. And our 34-year-old hero,

who's younger than the center on the team by two years, is now thrust into this crazed sports city with the most talented team in the NBA. Now it's rock bottom, 3-2 in round two. Like there is that sports movie scene where he's sitting on the porch or maybe he's sitting on his hotel balcony and somebody knocks on the door. It's Red Auerbach, who died 20 years ago. I don't know. Who knocks on the door at that point?

Al Horford? I'd rather have Dennis Hopper while he's still drinking. Dennis Hopper is still drinking as shooter from Hoosiers knocks on Joe's door. But yeah, it is one of those, like, he might've gotten fired if they lost this game. Like, I think it's in play. Oh, for sure. I mean, I don't think he's distinguished himself as a big time game manager. Although to your movie analogy, he can write his own finish. If the 34-year-old is on a duck boat,

then he can coach for the next 10 years. Well, maybe this was the most impressive game he's coached. He made adjustments. He stuck with his best player. The team responded. And now we're heading to a game seven. For this game seven, have you ever seen two fan bases that are more scared of the game seven? Usually it's one fan base. Both of these. I think the Celtics fan base is probably scared of this.

I have a lot of Celtic fans in my life. Nobody's like, this team fucking has it, man. You just wait. You just watch. Everybody's like, this team fucking has it, man. You just wait. You just watch. Everybody's like, what's going on with these guys? Well, you know, Al Horford has to make a three. This can't go on. Like, he has to make a three.

This is kind of an essential part of how we open teams up. Is that, was he really the second best three-point shooter in the league this year? When my shirt said that text, I was like, really? Because he's 0 for a lot. He was 0 for 7 from there. I think he missed at least two tonight. So in game three,

he was 5 for 7. And in the other games, he was 4 for 28 in the other five games. For the series, he's shooting 36% with 7.5 points a game. Now, I'm going to say guarding the behemoth that is Joel Embiid probably wears you down a little bit. That guy is one of the most physically imposing good basketball players.

I believe in the series, win or lose. I really gained respect for Embiid, haven't you? Embiid's fucking great. If they lose the series, I don't blame him at all. I know. It's funny because during the MVP betting season, when those odds were jumping all around, and I was just like, everybody would pick Jokic or Giannis over Embiid. This is kind of silly. Everybody knows that Embiid would be picked third of those three guys. And then Giannis just flames out against the Heat.

And Embiid, I mean, where I've really been impressed is his mobility defensively. Like, you don't, you beat your guy clean and you gain no advantage because Embiid is guarding a hemisphere of the court and you just can't, you know, so, you know, and, and probably not at a hundred percent. So I'm right there with you in terms of the respect. And by the way, I thought James Harden was completely washed. So even though he's had some bad games, game one, when they didn't have Embiid,

talk about a historic performance by a guy past his prime. That game made no sense. Well, think about the Celtics team. They get the gift of all gifts where Embiid gets hurt during a sweep of the nets, right? So now with the Celtics,

just finish this Hawks series as fast as possible. Start that Sixers series sooner and you might get two home games without Embiid. They take six games with the freaking Hawks. Lose at home. Blow a 13-point fourth quarter lead at home. By the way, when we're up 13 on Sunday in the fourth quarter,

I'm going to text you. This is exactly where we were against the Hawks. The 13-point range, right? So that somehow goes to six. Embiid only misses one game instead of two. Well, at least we'll win the one game without Embiid. They completely fall asleep with Harden. They don't pressure him at all.

Like the way they defended the Sixers today, where they were really pushing, like picking up 35 feet from the basket is kind of what they should be doing the whole series. Not, not letting Harden get ahead of steam. Like really, you know, he's still like, it's weird. If I was like Harden's, I'm not even, should I even say this? Well, he won't listen. Harden feels like that little, that little pull up he has from 12 feet.

I feel like he's making it every time, right? When it seems like he's driving in the basket, then he stops right before the foul line. Have we stopped that shot yet? I would love to see this stat. Everybody extends their arm, their off arm on the drive. Obviously Tatum gets called for it a lot. Curry does it really well. Curry gets into the guy's body with his off arm at the three point line and creates like two and a half feet and then goes backward two and a half feet and then get launches of three. Harden, what Harden does is he wards you off with the right arm. He's dribbling with his left. He pushes you far enough away, not hard enough to flop and get a call, but far enough away. So then when he up fakes, you're, you have to come in at an angle.

You can't go straight up because he's pushed you four feet backwards. And yeah, I mean, when he does that, whether he shoots the 12 footer or he up fakes, yeah, definitely. Hopefully he doesn't listen. Cause I don't know why he doesn't do that more often. Well, the other thing that helped with the Celtics in this game was that the, the refs I thought called a good game. It was, they were not really involved. There was only, there were each team shot less than 20 free throws, which is good for the Celtics. Cause the Sixers are the ones that are the free throw team.

And, and, and it, it, I like it when it's like nothing ticky tack, it's the playoffs, you know, don't give anybody to don't give someone two fouls four minutes into the game that you know always ruins the game although i guess it would have helped us if it was tatum um you can sit and think about stuff you know what's crazy is like uh when i saw the celtics energy level coming coming starting the game it's like okay it's not the sleepwalking celtics it's the junkyard dog Celtics contesting everything. There was an incredible sequence where time Lord and Horford had consecutive blocks in the same part of the court that were like, didn't look like the shots could be blocked.

It was like, I'm like, Oh my God, they've got so much energy. And it reminded me of Draymond's game five energy. Yeah. Draymond's game five energy. Draymond just came out possessed and played great. And you're like, just some nights you can play that hard and some nights you can't.

Can't we just play that hard all the time? It's the playoffs. These guys love to have their backs to the wall. The only team that's not like that is the team right now. It's 50 to 33 Denver with 940 left in the second quarter. Denver is the one team that seems, because Jokic is just such a cheat code, they're never down 20. It never feels like.

It always feels like they're either winning or they're right around even because they just get great shots. Would that have been your dream guy to play with, Jokic? Oh, my God. Every back cut, you get the ball. He gets so much attention. Obviously, you get a lot of open threes. I mean, look at those guys, how much better he's made KCP.

I mean, it's like they're all, you know, Michael Porter shooting the percentage he shoots. It's like, yeah, everybody gets five feet extra space because that guy- Plus the picks, just like having this massive wide guy setting these awesome picks, but he could also shoot. He, it must be just be like, you must feel like you won the lottery. Uh, sorry. So did this game make up for the fact that the Bruins blew a three, one lead and gave up an empty net goal in a game seven and then lost an OT or no? No.

Okay. The, you know, I, I really, I really thought the Bruins, I was like, not even worried about the president's trophy curse. I just thought they were just so loaded and, you know, teams would not get three good scoring chances against the Bruins in an average game. Like you wouldn't, the reason Linus Olmark had that safe percentage is like he never faced any tough shots. And then when the series started, it was just an endless parade of two on ones guys coming down the

slot unmarked. Like, I don't know what, I mean, everyone on the blue line was horrendous, like instantaneously horrendous in the playoffs. And Olmark may have been dinged, but even if he wasn't dinged, the defense was terrible. I mean, you can't blame Pasta and Marchand. They played out of their minds. But we just, we gave up 15 goals

in the three games that Patrice Bergeron played. Well, now we have, we have Yoshida and Verdugo. The Mookie Betts trade, I think we've gotten 18 cents on the dollar now at the Verdugo season we're having. I knew I, when I sent that text that Verdugo was having a better season than Mookie, that it was, that it was dangerous, but. Yeah, he immediately hit a game tying homer. All right.

Well, we'll see what happens in a game seven. I'm glad we talked this out. This was a much happier podcast with you than I was expecting about an hour ago. So I'm glad we're here. It was going to be a eulogy. It was going to be grim. But now we got the Tatum game. We have the Tatum dot dot dot Tatum game. Kevin Edge, good to see you. All right, brother. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it

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Our guy Rob Mahoney is there from The Ringer. We wanted to get somebody on that. We had my buddy Hench talk in Celtics. Now we have Rob, a real journalist who's actually at the game. So we're really the gamut of emotions here in the podcast. What's your takeaway from this series? Just Jokic is the best player on the earth right now.

And maybe some people will finally realize it. Or is it, oh my God, what are they going to do with Phoenix here? Yeah, I lean more toward the former. And in particular, look, a lot of people have been talking about Nikola Jokic in very suspect terms, right? These ideas that he's going to get caught in a series with great players and he's not gonna be able to keep up, that his defense is going to be exposed, that you can't play a team that runs a lot of pick and roll

because he's going to be a liability. I don't know, man. Like if you get stuck in a series with Nikola Jokic, you have to deal with a lot. You to do all of a sudden have all of these problems brought into your world and we saw two really great players in this series for Phoenix get absolutely rocked over the back half of it and if you look at Jokic in particular like I just want to zoom out these are the lines from his last 10

playoff games 27 and 99, 20-point triple-double, 43-11, 28-point triple-double, 24-9, 39-16, 30-17, 53-11, 29-point triple-double, and tonight, a 32-point triple-double that probably could have been crazier, but Denver had a 30-point lead in the second quarter. Where is the burden of proof for a player like that? I mean, there was a stat today that,

it wasn't even one of the five most impressive things about what he's doing, that only three players ever have had a 30-point triple-double in a playoff series. And it was LeBron in the 2017 finals, Westbrook in round one 2017, and Jokic. But he's, you know, I think at this point,

the thing that's so special about him and this team, they don't really have the hiccup quarter. They don't have the, the shitty half. They don't have the, they're not down 20 in the random, even when they lost the Minnesota game, they were in the game.

Like they fell behind by, by 10. It's just, it keeps saying like, it's just so hard for them not to get good shots when he's out there, you know, and it really is a cheat code. I, that's why I thought they were the best team, you know, heading into the playoffs because of the home court and because of him. And it's funny that people are not, now this will be a conversation, right? It's like this, there's this old school media, that element, plus like the fans who do the, whoa, he's never been

to the finals that just haven't been able to get there with them. But I think people like us that just watch basketball all the time, and he's just so clearly the best offensive player in the league. I think you make a good point, though. It is demoralizing if you're the other team, because you have Durant and Booker, who

hit 86 in Game 3 and 72, and they shot the lights out in game four, and they barely win both those games. And it's like, that's not sustainable to have shooting performances like that. On a Denver standpoint, though, I do think people kind of overlooked

how bad last year's team was, right? Where you have guys who were playing big minutes for them last year who weren't even in rotations this year, like Will Barton. You know Jamal Murray at all. And now you add KCP, you bring Jamal back. Everybody has another year. There's a continuity with this team.

Can you feel it in person? I haven't seen them this year yet. Yeah, I mean, they've looked incredible in person, especially in games like this. I think some of the difference between this Nuggets team and past ones are what you saw in like the last couple minutes in the first quarter in this game, right?

The Suns come into this game. Chris Paul is out. DeAndre Ayton is out. The Suns are clearly wounded and tired. You know, Kevin Durant and Devin Booker have been running to the ground in this series. This is kind of your chance to slam that door. And what we saw over, you know,

this was a game for nine minutes. And then over the last three minutes of the first quarter, the Nuggets went on a 17-0 run. Just absolutely blitzed them to the point where KCP was doubling Durant and Booker's scoring combined in the first quarter. That was kind of the state of play. And KCP is exactly the kind of guy who,

as you're saying, is a differentiating point between the Nuggets teams we've seen, the Nuggets teams that have lost, and this one that really has everything it needs to go all the way. Like what this rotation has become for Denver now that they've kind of slimmed it down. And they're really just playing eight guys, right? Off the bench, you have Jeff Green, who, you know, take it or leave it, has looked pretty good in some small ball minutes as a kind of a combo 4-5 for them. They're playing Aaron Gordon as the backup five now.

That's been a really good look. Bruce Brown, giving them great minutes and great energy, all series and Christian Brown, another, you know, I know, I know a bill favorite who, I mean,

defensively is the real deal offensively, you know, like it's a bit of a wild card, you know, it's a bit of an adventure whenever he tries to attack and transition or things like that. But if that, if you have the best starting five in basketball and those three guys,

that's enough, that's enough to go on a deep run. It's enough to contend for the championship on any terms, especially when you look around at the rest of the teams that are left. Show me the team that is definitively better than Denver. And they rope-a-dope people down the stretch because they knew they had it and they were just... Jokic, I don't think he played defense for the last month of the season. He did the opposite of going for an MVP award. They can also up his minutes in the playoffs, which I mentioned before the playoffs started was one of the reasons I liked them because they, you know, it was the on-off minutes with them, but in the playoffs, the on-off minutes matter a lot less because you can

play people 38, 40 minutes a game,, to go to the Phoenix side of this, because Durant's going to get killed over the next few days. I know how this is going to go. And I'm obviously, I don't want to call myself a KD guy, but I always find myself in the position of being a KD defender. The amount of minutes that him and Booker played in these two playoff series were absurd. You know, in the Clippers series, he played 44 minutes a game.

In this series, he was at 42 minutes a game. Today, he will only play 37 because of the blowout. He's a 2007 draft guy. He's 34 years old, two injuries this year. And I think part of the problem with that trade was they gutted their team and put themselves in a position where Booker and Durant had to carry this superhuman load, which they could do for three weeks. But both of them, it wasn't just that Denver was so good. I just don't think that load that they had was sustainable. Both guys seemed just beat tonight, especially Durant the last two games. Just he seemed old and he's not old. He's only 34. Yeah. They really look like they ran into a wall. If you see one of the best shooters of all time in Kevin Durant

taking all the shots he normally takes, and all of them are coming up short, all of them are just a little bit off, it's not exactly rocket science why that might be the case. I don't know whether he's going to get killed or not. I would hope we're better than that because this is a guy in Duran in particular, a knee injury going into an ankle injury,

going into five games at the end of the season with the Suns, going into logging 40 plus minutes of heavy lifting in every single playoff game. It just, it was going to burn out at some point. And I think Devin Booker kind of papered over some of those limitations, just with his incredible shot making at the first part of the series.

But even that ran its course too. You know too. He's being run into the ground too. And he's a guy who is playing huge minutes while at a dead sprint, trying to get everything he can in transition, being an incredibly active player all the time. His workload per minute might be as high as any other player in the postseason so far. So that was never going to last in tangible terms when your bench is what it is. Chris Paul is out. Now Aiden was out. It was just kind of a matter of time for the sons. Yeah. And KD who hit the threes in the first round, the second round, you know, he's 22% from three. He didn't take one three tonight. Yeah. And to me that says, I don't have my legs anymore. You know? And again, it sounds like I'm making excuses for him. I'm not because, you know,

ever really since he left Golden State, you kind of make your own destiny, which he went with Kyrie. You know, he made one of the biggest tactical errors that any great player has ever made. He believed in Kyrie and ended up having to push for a trade partially because Kyrie pushed for a trade.

He didn't want to get stuck in that Brooklyn team, steered his way to Phoenix and Phoenix was so desperate to get them that they gave up the farm and it was defensible. But man, that seems like a lot. Now you're talking bridges and cam Johnson and four firsts and a swap. And I just, so Rudy and I were talking about it before you hopped on,

like I just don't know what the move is for this team because they have that eight contract that's almost $100 million, three years left. They have Chris Paul who has broken down now two straight playoffs

and is at the age where I just don't think it's realistic to think he could be one of your best three guys in a playoff series. They're going to have to patch together some stuff that is going to be a lot harder with the CBA. I don't know what the moves are and they don't have any picks. So you're in a conference with Jokic. You're really competitive with the Warriors and Lakers and teams that are just going to spend money. You have some up-and-comer teams with a ton of assets

like New Orleans and OKC and Utah. And I don't know how the ceiling gets higher. Ishbio, when he came on my podcast, said how, you know, this was, you do this trade to get Booker and Durant and you figure it out. And that makes sense, but I kind of find it hard to believe that they made this trade thinking that they would win six playoff games

this season. What are your thoughts on that? My guess is they probably were rolling the dice with this group. We're going to plug in a Terrence Ross here and there. We're going to see if we can pick up some guys between the trade deadline and the end of the season who can help us. And we'll see what we've got. We'll see how healthy KD is.

I think the ankle injury threw a wrench into things a bit for them. But really, they were going to be shallow after that deal. And honestly, they were kind of shallow before that deal. We talk about the Bridges and Johnson part because those guys look so good in Brooklyn. I don't know.

The Phoenix team that they were a part of wasn't that great. It had some serious problems. The energy of that team was really off. The flow of it was not what it had been in previous seasons. They had been... Elements of that team, whether you're talking about Booker or Paul or basically anyone on it, had been alternating injuries all season. They didn't really have the juice either. And so I think you consolidate some of that stuff for Durant. You obviously include a lot of draft capital in

that deal. And the hope is, with some mid-level additions, with some veterans who are coming on to try to be a part of a contending team, you can cobble some things together. And I think what this series did show was those guys are elite enough shot makers that if they do have even sufficient help, they're going to have a puncher's chance against anybody. Even a team as good as Denver, right?

So I think they are close, but every other team in the league is going to be competing for those same resources, those same budget guys, those same really good mid-level players. Can they beat everyone else to the punch, I think is a perfectly valid question. The Aiton piece. So my guy, Eddie Johnson, and I actually ended up calling in with Termini and Eddie today because I was driving around listening to them. And I was like, I can't get in on this, but they were talking about Phoenix. And Eddie's been a big Aiton defender. He does the games for the sons. He's with the team and he's, you know,

he's just like, look, man, that's a nice kid. He's a good kid. Like he, so he's always in the camp. And today I don't know, we just read it between the lines of what he was saying, but also reading between the lines of some of the stuff that's floated out and some of the behavior and him getting pretty ornery during one of the games on the bench because he wasn't playing. And it just feels like that's heading toward an end, where it's just, I just think there's a lot of frustration. I think there has been for a while. I think they're ready to move him for some bonus last year. And I look at that, can you turn him into

two guys, basically? Can you turn him into a center by committee situation and get one more score? And ironically, everything goes back to, which I keep mentioning, when they didn't take Halliburton that year. If they just make that pick, all of this becomes a hell of a lot easier. Although maybe he would have been in the KD deal for all we know. They're just an asset short. Maybe they can flip him into two. I don't know. But I don't know. If you're going to say,

give me your top five West teams next year that you feel good about right now, not even knowing what's going to happen the next two rounds, I'm not positive they would be in my top five. Who's the competition, do you think? Because, I mean, Booker and KD, like, to Ishpia's point, I think you can figure it out on the fly with those guys and feel pretty good about

your situation still. But did you see, have you seen the list of free agents this summer? Because you think, oh, they'll get a mid-level guy. The free agent swing men this summer? It's appalling. Like, Jay Crowder is one of the top five available swing guys this summer, it's appalling. Like Jay Crowder is one of the top five available swing guys this summer.

And he was unplayable in the playoffs. It's just, it's one of those years where just kind of everybody's under contract. So, you know, if you move Aiton, maybe you end up taking somebody else's problem. Like maybe there's some sort of five team deal where Jordan Poole's going somewhere, Aiton's going somewhere. And it's just like everybody that nobody's that excited about is moving. Kyrie's going somewhere. I don't really know what the move is, but you know, you look at Denver, like Denver's eight deep. And I kind of feel like you have to go eight deep. The Celtics today, they played seven. You need at least seven that you completely trust.

Yeah. And I don't know what they have. Then they have the Chris Paul thing. What do you do with that? You can't pay him $30 million, right? But they're not going to have a choice because who's taking that? But I think that's where, to your point about Aiden or whether you think about Chris Paul and his contract, those are the opportunities where you're looking to break one good rotation player into two to do the opposite of what you did with the Durant deal. But I want to circle back to something you said a second ago, which is you're doing podcasts all week.

And in your free time, you're just doing freestyle podcasting, calling into drive time radio shows. Is that what's happening? I like those guys. Well, I was so stressed out about the Celtics. I just wanted to talk about it with somebody. My dad, I think was walking the dogs.

I was like, hey guys, just calling in. Here's the Suns next year. Durant at 47.6. Booker's at 36. Aiton's at 32.5. Chris Paul's 30.8. Schammett's 10.25.

Campaign's 6.5. So they're like, they're already at 165 without adding anybody. And it's going to be hard for them really to add anybody because they don't have any picks and all that other stuff.

So I don't know. From a Durant standpoint, this might be it, man. It might come down to that foot on the line. Might have been his best chance two years ago. He's a guy, too, who we're talking about the injuries he picked up this season.

That's going to be what the story of his career will look like going forward. He's going to be someone who's by the standards of the new NBA probably not eligible for awards in a lot of these future seasons. He's not going to meet the minimum threshold. And we need to think about

the Phoenix Suns regular season in those terms too. They're going to need innings eaters as much as anything, right? They might need to bring TJ Warren back just to be like, can you score us like 16 points a game for all of January? That would be an important resource

for them at this point. Are you thinking Russ? Jesus Christ. I don't think that would go great but look this is the moment when you mentioned some of the other guys who are on their books your campaigns your landry shamets and i think you know they had moments in the series sham it especially had had some great moments in this series but when he comes down to earth you see that he's not really a guy you can trust to play major minutes in a lot of the situations campaign exactly the same.

Like once Chris Paul went down to injure with down with injury and campaign becomes your starting point guard. Like there was a point in this game and this is when I knew the sons were really cooked. They were down. I think already like 20 points. Kevin Durant is coming up to try to get the ball and campaigns aggressively pointing him back to the corner.

Like, let me, let me go. Let me run this offense. Kevin Durant, future hall of try to get the ball and campaigns aggressively pointing him back to the corner. Like, let me, let me go. Let me run this offense, Kevin Durant. Future Hall of Famer. I'm like this, look, something is off in this building. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Yeah, this is broken.

It shouldn't have even gotten to six games. Game four, the Nuggets, I think win nine out of 10 times. And it was just a classic, oh, Landry Shaman's just going to hit a shitload of shots he hasn't made a shot in 3 years so that flipped it that tied it at 2-2 but I always felt like Denver was a better team I thought Denver tonight was going to be the lock of the year

and then they had all that flu stuff yeah and this happens a bunch with different series, right? Like we have Warriors-Lakers tomorrow night. And it seemed for a split second there, like Davis was just going to be out of the game six, like this must-win game for them.

Now it flips the other way. Now it's Wiggins has some sort of cartilage fracture, some sort of something. He's questionable. It's the same injury Kavon Looney had when he played, you know, and he seemed really hurt when he played with this. Wiggins was their key guy in game five, you know, like they really needed more from him. Draymond was the best guy on the floor for them, but Wiggins was kind of their key. He went up a level

higher than he had gone the rest of the series. They were way more athletic and just starting the defense a little further away from the basket, making it harder for the Lakers just to get into plays. And it was a little like the Celtics tonight. It was an old school Warriors defensive effort. And I don't know if that can happen again without Wiggins, if he's compromised or hurt. So really bad break for them. That's the thing is even if he plays, when you think about what Wiggins'

best offensive possessions were in that last game, it was like taking contact and finishing, getting and ones, attacking off the dribble against closeouts. I mean, man, all that stuff seems a lot more suspect when you're dealing with any kind of like abdominal or rib cage area injury. And we're seeing a lot of those kind of go around the league right now.

I think guys are just taking body blows over the course of these series. And it's really starting to add up. But when you're an athlete like Wiggins and he's, he's the most explosive player on the roster when he's healthy and when he is right. And they need him to play that way. I just don't know how you can expect him to, if he's nursing that kind of injury,

even, even if he's able to go out there. Awesome game tomorrow night. My guess is that we see Clay show up tomorrow

because he hasn't shown up in a couple games and I just refuse to believe he's going to just stink for the rest of the series. Clay's history would be he actually has a huge game tomorrow. Right? The history of the Klay is like two bad ones that are I can see three no. On the

flip side, who's going to like fucking Laker roulette? Who's going to be their guy that just steps up out of nowhere and has 22 points on 8 for 10 shooting? I don't think I'm qualified to answer that question anymore. I've said so many negative things about the Lakers over the past six

months. I have no way of explaining what is happening. I'm still grasping at straws as to how every time they've needed it, they get a big D'Lo game, a big Rui Hachimura game, big Austin Reeves, Dennis Schroeder. They have had that kind of long playoff run, championship

run level magic from all the guys who's needed to be down to the Lonnie Walker game. So at this point I'm ready to be mystified. I'm ready to be mystified by like, you know, Mo Bamba is going to roll out there and hit six threes. And it's going to be incredible. Like I'm willing to go to KFC's life.

I can't wait. The, the thing with the Lakers that I think is funny, like everyone's praising Palenka and rightly so because they you know they kind of saved this lost season on the other hand if you look at

what they got back for that Westbrook trade just in this series like Beasley's not playing Vando's down 10 minutes a game and he's basically lost confidence in his shot so they kind of can't play him anymore so basically it's D'Lo. So they gave up Westbrook and an unprotected first for D'Lo now, which I think D'Lo was pretty available,

but the Rui trade probably for getting all those, you know, they gave up all those second rounders, even just having a couple of games from him has been a bonus. But for the most part, the more I look at that trade, it's just the fact that they removed Westbrook and just how dysfunctional that situation was, was almost more important than who they got back. Because who they've gotten back

has been pretty hit or miss. D'Lo's probably been the best asset they got back. But you know what I mean? Yeah, and you get this huge boon of opportunity for guys like Reeves and Schroeder. Getting the ball in their hands in some of these positions where you're not just catching the ball from the weak side and attacking. But if you're Austin Reeves, you get to run multiple pick and rolls down the stretch of a crucial playoff game against Memphis and bust the whole thing wide open, right?

That doesn't happen if Russell Westbrook's on the team because he's occupying some of that space, some of those possessions. He's filling a completely different role than all of these now interchangeable guards. I think maybe the most important thing about D'Lo in his role with the Lakers so far is they've been able to bench him at the end of some of these games, right? If he has it going, they ride him and he's been crucial. If he doesn't, he's now interchangeable with these other players in a way that you just can't always do that with Russ and have him still be the same player. Have you been impressed by him? Because I have, I think it's really hard to coach a team like this, where you have the, you have one of the greatest players of all time. Who's going to basically check himself in when he wants to come back in and he's going

to just break any offense because he's LeBron and he should. And then you have Davis who you just never know half to half what you're getting from him. And then you have all these other dudes that are basically, I just don't know if this guy's going to get hot. He's going to lose his confidence. Reeves, who even he seemed like he hit a little confidence thing in the beginning of this series. I think he's become no, their third most reliable guy. But for the most part, just being able to patch these pieces together, even riding Lonnie Walker, I really thought it was impressive that they kept him out there. He did no points in that first half in game four. Better rookie coach than Joe Mazzulla, I'm going to go out on a limb and say.

I mean, not as confrontational after wins, I would say as well, maybe. Not resting on his laurels quite as much as Joe has been. But I think that's really important. And it's not just riding the hot hand of a guy starts to get going and, okay, we're just going to leave him in. I think what Hamm has done really well is known when to pull the plug on certain guys.

And Vanderbilt's a great case in point. It's just not really his series anymore at this point with the way the Warriors are playing and with how much they've downshifted. And I think you can see evidence of how well Ham has done in this series by the fact that sometimes we look at the Warriors and they'll take a game to adjust. Draymond will have a great explosive, impactful game, and he'll have a game where he's kind of figuring it out, and then he'll exceed again. And that's because he's being given something to position against, right?

Something to solve, something to fix. The Lakers are constantly revolving with the rotation. They're changing their methods of attack. We saw in this last game, they're even just like, we're just going to try switching in this game just to see if it works. That's kind of a desperation play in that moment. But I think the willingness to try those things matters, right? You're not

being dogmatic. You have this roster with all these different options. Let's throw things at the wall and see what sticks, even if it's an important game. They certainly seem to have a better sense of what their team is than the Warriors do right now. Like even think

like Poole, who I didn't even think we'd see in game five. He played 23 minutes. Moody, who finished game four, he only played 10. It's a little different than the Lakers thing. It's not Steve Kerr being like, I'm the maestro. He's just kind of like, can I find five guys that look like they want to be out there and are going to play defense? Yep.

I think the big thing for the Lakers you have LeBron and Davis and you have Schroeder and you have Reeves so they know they're going to have those four at crunch time how they figure out that fifth dude on the fly depending on what they need maybe it's

D'Lo I think they're going to win tomorrow night unless we have an old school clay game. You know, game six clay. We didn't see it last round, but it just feels like, I just think Lakers at home with the different kinds of guys

who can step up quarter to quarter, that's what I don't see with the Warriors. There's not enough variance. It's kind of like Steph basically has to have 30 to 40. They have to have either clear pull, hit like four or five threes in a game. Draymond has to be awesome. You know, it's just like bigger margin for error

plus the Wiggins piece. So I don't know. I'm not optimistic for them, but you seem a bigger margin for error plus the Wiggins piece. So I don't know. I'm not optimistic for them. But you seem a little more optimistic than me. I think I'm optimistic just because I have no idea what to expect of Anthony Davis in his current state. And I know there's a lot of, you know,

smoothing over out on the reporting streams right now. Like, oh, he's going to play. There's no reason to expect any problems. I don't know, man. Like that looked like a pretty nasty hit to the head. I think it was an elbow to the head from Kavon Looney that he took. I'm not... Until I

see him on the court, for really an extended run of time, I'm just going to need to hit pause and wait to see it to believe it. Those can be very difficult things to just bounce back from quickly in a highly lit, pressure-packed, up and down the court. Again, high momentum game is what the Warriors are trying to play now.

You're constantly revolving. You're constantly alternating ends of the court. I don't know. I don't know if he's ready for that or not. I guess we'll find out one way or another. If he looks like Anthony Davis, I'm with you. It still feels like the Lakers have a pretty good feel for this series, even with everything that the Warriors have

been able to figure out, ramping up their pace, getting back to their style of play. I still think the Lakers have a feel for it if Anthony Davis is healthy, but we just don't know right now. I want to see the Draymond from game five who didn't seem like he was buddies with LeBron and Davis off the

court. That was the first game where I felt like he was full dream on and trying to get in people's heads and doing that stuff. This is not a game I would bet on, just FYI. I'm leaning Lakers, but I just think there's too many variables. And then you also, you know, there's always the Steph 46-point game or the Steph 35 points with 17 assists type possibility too. Before we go, Knicks Heat. If I told you the Knicks were going to win this series,

what would you say? Is Jalen Brunson alive at the end of it? At what cost, I would say? All of the players on that team, Brunson is going to limit in these games, obviously, and that's been a big story. But almost every member of the players on that team, Brunson is going the limit in these games, obviously, and that's been a big story. But almost every member of the rotation was ailing in some way at the end of last game.

Limping, swollen in the face, just dragging to the finish. I just think the Heat are healthier. And some of these series, it really does come down to that. Brunson playing 48 minutes at the position he's at with the workload he had was pretty unusual. A little wild.

48 minutes is aggressive. You're basically saying we can't lose or we're going to lose if this guy is even off the court for two minutes is your announcement when you're playing somebody 48 minutes. You're doing that like the high school state championship when you have one guy, not in the pros. I think, I mean, wasn't Tibbs,

right though. They probably would have lost if he played two fewer minutes. And Grant, that's the wilder one. And in the fourth quarter hurt his leg pretty badly. You know, he was limping around, there was a break and play.

And I thought he, okay, for sure. This is the moment where Quinn, Quinn Grimes gets at least 30 seconds of rest, but no, you know, he was limping around. There was a break in play. And I thought, okay, for sure, this is the moment where Quentin Grimes gets at least 30 seconds of rest. But no, you know, tape an aspirin to it, roll out there, Quentin Grimes, you're still our guy.

I mean, honestly, an incredibly gutty, canny win by the Knicks. I have a lot of admiration for it. I just don't think it's all that replicable two more times. I was just excited they finally did hack a a Mitch been waiting for somebody to do that. They did the heat did 19 things that the calves were like, Oh, we should have done that.

Which is tough. If you're the coach of the calves, here's, here's why I would give the Knicks a chance. You know, there's a lot of guys on this heat team that can just go sideways in a game, right? Like, take game five. Love was two for 10.

Lowry's three for 11. Vincent was three for 10. Robinson, who was actually hitting threes, but then missed a couple of the big ones at the end. They have moments where you look at the guys that are out there and you're like, how are the Knicks not just going to the basket every time? They're playing Kevin Love and Duncan Robinson as their rim protectors. Just drive through the basket. And I wonder

the longer this series goes on, if you just start getting more and more uncomfortable. On the flip side, Jimmy's kind of due for one of those Jimmy games. Yeah. And that would be what I'd be the most worried about if I'm the Knicks. Jimmy's been quiet for a couple games here. What's he have lurking?

Yeah, he's been kind of playing it a little slower, like reading the game, trying to be more of a facilitator for their offense, setting up your Duncan Robinsons and whatnot. I think that's an important role and you can understand, given his injury, why he might just kind of fall into that space. But all he needs is

one big game, right? One stretch where he's going off and scoring in that way. I just don't think New York really has the offense to keep up with that. I mean, this is a team in the Knicks that, yes, they look like themselves over the back half of that game. They scored 14 points in the first quarter, and that's kind of par for the course

of, you know, for as explosive as their offense was in the regular season, they do get stuck in the mud sometimes, especially when you pack the paint against them as the way that Miami has done. And you're really daring a lot of their guys to shoot. So I think if this is going to be, again, another ugly, muddy game, I wouldn't bet on anyone's chances to beat the Heat in a bunch of those kinds of contests over and over again. If you had to say Sunday night, Kendall Roy self-destructs or the Sixers self-destruct, who would you pick?

I would never bet against Kendall self-destructing. So give me him every week. Matt Moore from the Action Network was just telling me that if you bet on the Lakers every year, starting in like 2000 to win the championship, that ultimately you'd be up just because they've won so much over time. I may be getting the start date wrong.

I need to clarify with Matt on what that was. Whatever the equivalent is for succession, I want to bet every episode that Kendall implodes. And I'm just going to come out on top enough times that I'm going to retire early. What did you make of Philly not giving the ball to Embiid? I taped with Hench in the first segment, and then I watched the fourth quarter again after.

And we mentioned those shots they took down the end, but I didn't realize Embiid didn't even really touch the ball. And then he said something about it after the game where they asked him what happened. He's like, I didn't touch the ball. Um, did that jump out to you as you were watching it? Everything happened so fast. I was also having a stroke, so it was hard to concentrate. But I didn't realize that Embiid didn't shoot during the most key part of the game. I mean, your MVP doesn't get the ball when James Harden tries to drive and just falls over. There are some of those plays where Harden was trying to draw contact. There was one possession where he kept trying to preempt the Celtics rotation

by kicking to PJ Tucker in the corner instead of passing to Embiid. I think you might be overthinking it, James Harden, like you're a, you're a great playmaker, but give the ball to Embiid, let him draw the double. He's shown over the course of the season,

he can score over two guys in a lot of those situations anyway, even in the series. I think I would have trusted that a little bit more. Have you ever seen anything like that Tatum game? It was wild. So were you in the press room watching that with everybody? I was in the press room watching the bulk of the fourth quarter, especially. And coming into that game, seeing him just, or at least into that kind of portion of the game,

and he was just floating off on the edges of the screen. I mean, he may as well have been standing on the bench on some of those possessions, not even touching the ball, not involved whatsoever. And to see him just spring to life in that particular way, it's a huge moment. I know we're going to praise it. It's a season-saving performance. I'm a little concerned that it needed to be

a season-saving performance, right? That you needed to be in that position in the first place. But look, the guy delivered. It's hard to argue with that. The other thing, I talked to my dad after and he was saying how he was like, Smart and Horford were basically coaching the team. And Smart after the game was like,

we had to pick up Joe. He's made some mistakes. He had some quote after the game. My dad was like, I couldn't believe he said that. Wow. But Horford, I've never seen him that animated during a game. And it really did feel like kind of the smart and Horford behind the scenes leadership. Smart had some great quotes about like, if we were going down, I was going down bleeding and diving for

everything. And he had a huge impact in that game. So we'll see. The Celts backs to the wall. Pretty good history the last couple of years, but would it shock me if they lost on Mother's Day at home because Harden had 40 and they didn't adjust or do anything? I don't know what to expect with this team anymore. And you're not attached to anybody involved, but you must be just as confused. I mean, look, the Celtics have been incredibly confusing all season. I really don't know why they show up to some games

and just refuse to play defense categorically in other games. It doesn't really check out to me, given the personnel. They should be better in a lot of these games and series than they are. But man, again, it's not quite a bet on Kendall situation, but betting on a Doc Rivers, James Harden, Game 7 team, I don't feel super confident in their chances in that kind of matchup. Very fair.

Maybe Embiid carries the day. Maybe Maxie has got enough momentum in this series and in this matchup where he can continue to be great. We'll just have to see. I'm kind of... Admittedly, I'm invested in seeing... I would love to see a Philly breakthrough.

I would love to see Embiid get this particular kind of hurdle and continue to advance and continue to take the next step in his career. This is the moment when you do it, right? Against an opponent like the Celtics on this kind of stage, you got to show that you're not... Not only are you going to complain after the game

that you didn't get the ball, but you're going to seize those moments. You're going to demand it. You're going to go at Al Horford in ways that he has kind of not wanted to in some of these games, especially in crunch time in the series. You have to prove it. You have to prove that you're that guy. I am eager to see if Joel

can do that because I would love to see it if he did. Right now, the Celtics are plus 165 on FanDuel to win the title. They're the favorites and Denver is plus 230. And then it drops to 521 for the Lakers, et cetera. I think the thing we learned this week before we go is just,

I think Denver is clearly the favorite now, like clearly, especially because they'll have home next, next round. They won't have home against Philly or Boston in a, in a finals. They won't have home against Philly or Boston in a finals. They won't have home court, but they have it next round. And I just think, to me, by far the safest bet. I trust the infrastructure.

I trust Jokic. And as we move forward, I didn't feel like we had a prohibitive favorite. I mean, prohibitive is maybe too strong. I didn't feel like we had a legitimate favorite. But to me, Denver is the legitimate favorite now. Agree or disagree? Agree. And some of it is like

there's just been enough contenders swept off the board or that are about to be swept off the board where it makes sense in that way. But especially when you think about the state of the West right now. What has given the Lakers trouble

in their series against the Warriors? It's Draymond Green on the perimeter pulling AD from the basket in all these playmaking actions, in all these handoffs. Nikola Jokic can do all those things. What's given the Warriors trouble? It's Anthony Davis' size inside, the way he's punished all their smaller defenders. Well, guess what? Nikola Jokic can do all those things too.

So I don't really see how either of those teams is going to match up with Denver all that well. And that's just starting with the best player on the floor before you go position to position and be like, who, you know, who's contesting Michael Porter juniors threes, who is keeping Aaron Gordon away from the rim. Who's preventing,

you know, game six hero Contabious Caldwell Pope from just like beating you outright with an amazing first quarter. Denver is really, really strong right now. I mean, they've, they've just been above and beyond in both of these series and answered

really all the questions you you have about them to this point. Not to mention, all the teams that are left, at least in the West, would have played a fucking shitload of games, right? The Warriors could be in a situation where they've played 14 games in 28 days. The Lakers would play,

if it goes to game seven, would be 13 with an older team. We just saw Chris Paul go down, still kind of waiting for the first LeBron injury. And then in the East, the Celtics have somehow played 13 playoff games already in two rounds. It seemed like they were going to sweep the Hawks. They're up 2-0 against the Hawks. It was like, this is great. And Bede gets hurt.

Oh, my God. And ever since then, it just has gone sideways. So Denver is going to get at least some time here. Anyway. All right. Rob my God. And ever since then, it just has gone sideways. So Denver is going to get at least some time here. Anyway. All right. Rob Mahoney. I look forward to, uh, to reading you on the ringer.com as well as listening to you on the ringer and beat the next ringer. I bet you I'll probably be this weekend, right? Yeah. We'll have sometime this weekend. We're still trying to figure out with all these games, seven still up in the air when we're going to be recording on Sunday, but group chat will be around sometime on Sunday. All right. Thanks for hanging in the press room with us.

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to guest producer, Steve Allman. Wow. What an honor to have him as well as our friend, Steve Cerruti. I hope Nephi Kyle is still alive. I hope I'm still alive on Sunday after game seven. Don't forget on the Prestige TV podcast, Breaking Down Succession as well. Right after that episode goes up, me, Sean Fennessey, Joanna Robinson. So that's it. Enjoy the weekend.

I'm going to have a drink. drink