The Bill Simmons Podcast - Team USA’s Breakout Stars, a Hilarious Clips–Lakers Feud, and LeBron 2020 Predictions With Brian Windhorst | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: August 14, 2019

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN’s Brian Windhorst to discuss his time with Team USA and some of the players who shined, including Jayson Tatum, De’Aaron Fox, and Donovan Mitchell. They talk playoff hopes for the Utah Jazz, the Lakers–Clippers feud, LeBron’s next NBA season, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and all the great stuff we have on the Ringer Podcast Network coming up Brian Windhorst he hasn't been around in a while I had to I had to battle him

on Twitter. We're going to talk about that in a second. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. Alright, on the line right now. He hasn't been on in a while. He wrote a book called LeBron Inc. that came out this spring. He has been on the website. He has been on the jump.

He's done, did a lot of TV. I was actually worried about his sleeping habits during the free agency stretch. He's here now, Brian Windhorst. I wanted to talk to you first. You spent a week with Team USA. What did you see? What were you surprised by? You mean Team USA slash Boston Celtics?

Yeah. Is that why you want to talk about them? No. I mean, now that you brought it up, I'd love to hear about that. I actually think if Marcus Smart is healed, and I don't see why not, I think all four of them are going to make the team.

Wow. I do. You know, things could happen. They've got some practices this week in an exhibition game in L.A. But I think Marcus Smart, if he's healed, is going to make it. And I thought Jalen Brown was on the bubble, and Jalen Brown looked really good in what I saw last week in Vegas. And they started him in the game.

And I know that you don't freak out about, you know, this would basically be akin to the first preseason game. You wouldn't freak out about who starts. But they started him and played him at power forward, which I thought was a mark against Kyle Kuzma and a mark for Jalen Brown. Yeah. In fact, um, you know, there's so,

you know, Kuzma is such a tantalizing prospect, but he, at least the first week now, he may have a great week this week. I, I think he's more in the bubble than Jalen Brown. So,

um, and, uh, Kemba is going to pretty much be the captain of the team. And Tatum shot the ball better than just anybody at the entire first week. I mean, you should have seen it, Bill. Like, Chris Middleton and Joe Harris were so frustrated because this ball that they use for FIBA,

it's a brand of ball that you almost never see in the U.S. And not only are the different colors, but to listen to the shooters, it's a thinner rubber, and the seams are deeper. So it just feels strange in their hands. I think it might be a little bit smaller, but I'm not sure. They don't like it. They're not used to it. And Chris Middleton and Joe Harris didn't make a shot for three days.

I'm telling you, they didn't make anything. And Tatum was hitting everything everything and then he came out in the first exhibition game, hit three threes right out of the gate, led the team in scoring. So this is going to be a great opportunity for Tatum.

And I talked to all the Celtics and they're talking in code, Bill. I mean, they don't want to do anything controversial. They're talking in code. They're not specifically saying Kyrie's name, but they're,

what they're doing is saying this is a great opportunity to develop chemistry with our new point guard, which is code for, we didn't have chemistry with our old, I mean, I'm putting their words into their mouth. It's my read on it. Um,

and Jalen, uh, even was like, I don't want to do any, I don't want to say anything political. I don't want to do any, I don't want to say anything political I don't want to talk about last season, we're going to talk about going forward but Kemba is such a different personality

so yeah, so I know one of the things I really was watching was the Celtics interacting with each other and the best player we didn't get to see all the practice but Pop did let us see quite a few scrimmages in of course the game, so I us see quite a few scrimmages, and of course the game. So I probably watched them play five scrimmages.

I don't know how many they had total. Maybe they had six, maybe they had 15, but I think I got a pretty good feel by watching, and then I talked to the executives who were allowed to watch it, and I talked to the USA Basketball folks, and the guy who exploded off the court, the

guy who's made everybody's eyes open up and dominated the week was Donovan Mitchell. I was going to ask you about that because I had sent some under-the-radar feelers for like, hey, who knocked everybody's socks off this week? And Mitchell was the guy. And everybody, it seems like he's a little stronger. I don't know what he did this summer,

but they just were like, he was so strong, so explosive. It's starting to feel like there's some 2006 Dwayne Wade potential with his next season was, was what I gathered. What did you see? I hate to just,

to fall into the Dwayne Wade thing of what people say, but when you watch him play, that's what you see. It's just like, you know, he moves like Dwayne Wade thing that people say, but when you watch him play, that's what you see. It's just like, you know, he moves like Dwayne. He's built like Dwayne. The way he, you know, he's a better shooter. He's not a great outside shooter. He's a better shooter than Dwayne was,

but Dwayne wasn't really a good shooter. He was never really a good outside shooter. He just looks so much like him to me. It just, it's, it's crazy. Well, think about it.

He's like, he turns 23 next month. So that was right around the age when Wade, Wade, his rookie year, which you remember, he was really good and he had a nice little playoff run. And we thought,

oh, wow, this guy's that we underrated this guy. This guy has a chance to be really, really good. And then the next year he went up a notch when Shaq showed up, but we still didn't think, you know,

there was that he had the chance to be like one of the best three guys in the league. And then that third season, it really started like March, April range and went into the playoffs where all of a sudden he became one of the best guys in the league. And if Mitchell is going to follow that path, this would be the season. This is season three for him. And they're exactly the same age.

And Mitchell played some point guard last year and he's going to play some point guard for this team. And if you remember, Wade played some point guard early in his career. And so it gave him a little bit more confidence. I was talking to him about this and I don't think he wants to play that much of it in the league, but he said if you remember last year, the Jazz just, their point guard situation was a disaster

with injuries and other stuff. But he's like, when you play point guard in the NBA, you have experience operating at that level. It just gives you a confidence you didn't have before. So he looks really confident. And the other guy, I mean,

so if I could say the three guys who really stood out to me, again, week one, it's a six-week thing, Tatum, Mitchell, and De'Aaron Fox. Right. De'Aaron Fox. I'm not surprised by any of those three names. Yeah. Fox,

like he really, really wants to be there. He is staying after practice and working out. He's staying after practice and dunking the hell out of the ball to throwing the balls off the wall and throwing down dunk. And he's like super energized to be on the team, which is refreshing, you know? And he should be. He's in his second year.

He's two years, and he's going into his third year. And, like, this is when you should be energized to do something like this. And, you know, I think Kemba is such a perfect guy to lead this team. He, again, like, you know, when he talked to Kemba, Kemba is like, I was on the select team twice. Right. There was, there was two, there was two summers where, you know, after the first week I went home and the other guys went on to Rio and London or Spain or whatever. He's like, I wanted to be the guy who went through and, um, I'm happy to be the guy to go through. So, um, you know, i also think that pop is having a blast um i came

into the week wondering like greg what are you doing here like this is all downsized that you lose i mean nobody's going to pay attention if you do a really great coaching job there's like okay us one if you lose you're going to get all the blame, especially since he was on the coaching staff with Larry Brown in the Athens where they lost, and that was a disaster. And you're just going to get all the blame. But he is totally into this. And I think he loved it that the Stars left. Like, I mean, he would never admit this, but like when James Harden, you know,

Harden was the one who started to kick the, started the cavalcade of leaving. Like, I don't think he wanted James Harden on his team because he didn't want to play that way. Right.

I mean, Harden would be the best player in the tournament. And like this, I'm not experienced enough in international basketball to know when the last time the U.S. didn't have

the best player. Like maybe before we sent our pros and Oscar Schmidt was dominating from Brazil. But the U.S. will not have the best player of the tournament because Giannis is going to be there. Well, the thing is, I would say 2010 might have been the last time because that was

the last time we went young. But that was when Durant... But we didn't know Durant was going to do that, is my point. And then he did it. And it was like, oh, Durant but we didn't know Durant was going to do that is my point and then he did it and it was like oh Durant and that's why I love the philosophy of going young with the team

I don't think James Harden should have been anywhere near this team I'm fine with going 25 and under and building around young guys and then having the two or three older guys like the Lillard and Kemba and one other person, and then getting people like Fox Tatum, I think it's so much more important for those guys to be in a bigger stage, have a different coach.

You talked about the pop thing. It's funny. These guys have all now, you think the heart of this team is what age 20 to 26, something like that. These guys have all kind of grown up with the legend of pop, you know, that the Spurs were a relevant, important team the entire time they followed basketball. The legend of pop really started to grow. I would say 2000, 2011, 12 range. That's when the sideline interview started and he started to get this reputation. And Phil Jackson was also fading out

and the Phil Jackson run was done and Pop kind of became the guy. So now you have these young guys from that generation who have now grown up and get to play for him. And it's the equivalent of like, you know, when young actors like Leo were like, oh, cool. Scorsese's asked me to be in a movie, you know, pop has been right.

Pops, pops become the Scorsese Tarantino coach where it's like, oh, cool. I get to play for pop for 10 days. I think for guys like Tatum and Brown, it's really cool to have a different voice into what you pick up all that stuff. Do you feel that he has that kind of influence now? Yeah, it's a really good comparison. Yeah, because it is kind of like, you know, you're not committing

to, you know, doing a 15-year run with him. You're committing to six weeks. And, you know, he's having fun with them. So let me just describe a little scene that happened. So, you know describe a little scene that happened. So, you know, the one cool thing about this is when you cover the Spurs, like the Spurs are a direct phony when it comes to media availability and media access.

And that's pop, you know, related. But, you know, team USA, especially this team, is looking for more attention. So he lets us see more practice than he normally would see. So I get to watch Greg Popovich coach a practice. So one of the things that he did, he brought out a guy to shoot free throws. He put everybody on the line like they were a high school team, and he was going to make them run. And he brought somebody out to shoot free throws.

I don't remember who it was, but he missed. And so Pop was like, well, guys, got to run. Get on the line. line they get on the line and um he goes all right when i blow the whistle i'll tell you where to go he blows the whistle and they start running he goes run to the charge circle and they realize you don't know they're running for three feet you know you know like i mean it's kind of hilarious that you would ever have NBA players run. Right.

You know, this is, you know, I mean, granted, they weren't in the greatest shape when they got there. And some of the coaches were like, boy, we got heavy legs the first couple of days. But, you know, these guys do not need to run up and down the court a couple of times for the most part to get in shape. And just, you know, him playing games like that and seeing him sort of interact and, you know, just have fun with the guys.

And he picks the spots where he's serious and that's one of the things like I talked to, I was talking to one of the players was telling me like at times he gets his message,

oh, Donovan Mitchell was saying, there's times where he picks and chooses. It almost kind of reminds me, you know, you guys just did the Bull Durham on the Rewatch. No, the Field of Dreams. It was a Costner interview, which was fantastic. But anyway, he kind of acts a little bit like Crash Dave.

So Mitchell was telling me that there was this one scrimmage they had because they struggled the first two days. They got beat by the select team a few scrimmages that we saw. And one scrimmage we saw, they just kicked their ass. And Van Gundy was just loving it. You know, Van Gundy was coaching the select team, and he was loving it. But so finally they started playing better towards the end of the week, and they had this one stretch where they just really dominated.

Everything came together, and it looked really good. And there was a timeout. I think Dan Gundy had to call timeout. And they came over to the bench, and Pop came in and ripped them. And he's like, you know, he keeps you on your toes, because sometimes he comes in and is sarcastic. It reminded me of the scene in Bull Durham where, you know, Luke Lelouch cruises through the first inning and he, uh,

he comes into the dugout all happy and, you know, crash that. Yeah, your curve balls hang in. They'd have ripped you. Um, I think that that's, uh, I think he likes it. I think that's part of the learning experience to have, uh, you know, playing for him. I wish it had happened a little sooner. I was never, I thought Coach K hung on too long and was doing it for reasons that, in my opinion, were selfish, you know?

I don't, it's not a position where some, the same coach should be in there for 10 years, you know? And I think he realized how much it helped him with the one and done stuff and the access to the NBA superstars and things like that. It's clear that Pop should have been the guy. And then probably when he's done, it'll be Steve Kerr or Stevens or whoever. But I liked having an NBA coach there. And I also, I have a couple of weird corners as an NBA fan, right? Like I really care about the all NBA teams and getting it right and making sure. I just put way too much thought into that. I really care about team USA because

we've seen it over and over again, especially for young players. If the experience goes correctly, it's really valuable. It's valuable because they're getting a different voice. They're going to pick up a couple tips just from the coaches and a couple things they learn. It's valuable to just be around their really good peers because they're going to, from a competitive standpoint, there's a sense of belonging

that I think you can't really put into words until Donovan Mitchell is kicking everybody's ass. And he's like, oh shit, I'm one of the best players in the league now. And then the third thing is, and you definitely saw this with the 08 team, which you've covered LeBron his whole career. That was a transformative experience for LeBron and Melo and Wade when they were around Kobe and Kidd every day in the 08,

that whole 08 Olympics thing. And all three of those guys had awesome seasons after that Olympics thing. That's not an accident, right? Team USA is probably the most underrated thing that happened with the effect of the NBA. And, I mean, look, I'll acknowledge, I'm covering Team USA this summer. I'm going with them to China. I'm going with them to Tokyo next year, at least that's the plan.

I want you to care about them. So I'm acknowledging that. And I also acknowledge that right now it's football season and there's going to be college and pro football going on. And it won't probably, and the games are going to be on at 8 a.m. because they're in China and people are not going to pay attention. But Team USA was a founding corner, a founding pillar in the super team movement. Guys clustered on Team USA, and we have Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving as the latest example, and became friends. And, you know, Wade LeBron and Bosh did it 2006, 2007, 2008. By the way, they had a three-year run together. Yeah.

They culminated. And also, it portends, as you mentioned, who's going to take off. So, Kevin Durant, I mean, we knew he was good, but he took off after the 2010. I mean, in 2010, the world championship was in Turkey. And they played Turkey in the final. And I can tell you, I wasn't at that event, but I've been at world championships. And the Turkish fans are really, really into it.

They really care about it. So they go into the arena in Istanbul. The place is a madhouse. It's the biggest game in Turkish basketball history. And by the way, a good Turkish team. They had Turkoglu and they had Okur. They had four NBA players.

And they all recognized that this was their most important games of their life. A chance to win that world championship in Turkey. And Durant drove a stake into their heart. I think he was 38. And in that environment, I don't know if Kevin would feel this heart. I think he was 38. And in that environment, and like,

I mean, I don't know if Kevin would feel this way. I got to believe it's one of the great performances of his career. No, he's, I got him to talk about it

on one of the podcasts I did. Like, it definitely was. And I remember I wrote a piece about it after. It felt like a transformative moment for him. And I, I felt,

I actually felt the same way about 2018 USA, which I think, you know, Kobe's legacy is complicated. I think some things have been overrated. Some things have been underrated, but what he did in the gold medal game in 2008, I think it was one of his greatest moments because that team did hit a point where everybody just started looking at each other playing Spain in the finals. And it was kind of like, all right, who's going to grab the car keys here? And Kobe's like, I got this. LeBron wasn't there yet.

LeBron wasn't ready for it. No. No. And I think you look at what happened to LeBron. So 08, they lose game seven in Boston. And the key point of that game is that jump ball that Paul Pierce just basically is stronger than him and beats him to the jump ball. Then you go to the summer, you have the Olympics, everything they studied from Kobe and kid, the work ethic, all that stuff. Plus the moment of

being in that game and that Spain game and watching Kobe be the one that grabbed the car keys. LeBron goes out and wins two straight MVPs. Now you could have said, he came out and had a 66 win team for next year. Yeah. Now you could say, all right, well,

he had been in the league six years that are five years heading into a six year at that point. Like it was probably going to happen anyway. He's one of the best players of all time, but I don't know. I think the timing of that, Wade also had his best season ever in 2009 and Carmelo went the furthest he's ever gone in the playoffs in 2009. I don't feel like it's an accident.

And there's more to that. Like 2014, James Harden. James Harden, I remember before Paul George broke his leg, unfortunately, Harden and Paul George and Kevin Durant played one-on-one after every practice. And I still say it's one of the most entertaining things I've ever seen in my years in the NBA. Harden's competitive nature in those was amazing. And I think Harden's been a different player since then.

And I'll even go back to last summer. Last summer, they had a three-day little thing in Vegas. Maybe it was even two days. I don't remember. I went to it, but it was basically like we're having a check-in. thing in Vegas. Maybe it was even two days. I don't remember. I went to it, but it was basically like we're having a check-in. It was the first time Pop was running some practices. And they were actually pretty star-studded. Durant played.

Harden played. And Paul George played. And Paul George had just had knee surgery. And I wanted to see. I was kind of surprised he was playing because he had knee surgery. And Paul George looked fantastic. surgery. And I wanted to see, I was kind of surprised he was playing cause he had knee surgery and Paul George looked fantastic. Like in that two day or three day little thing,

Paul George is best player on the floor. And what happened? Paul George came out and had the best season of his career, in my opinion, this last year before he hurt his shoulders. So like, well, I mean, I get like anybody who says to me like, Oh, the stars aren't playing, you know, whatever. I, I'm not anybody who says to me like oh the stars aren't playing you know whatever I'm not disagreeing with you but what happens in these Team USA summers matters in the league

we're going to take a break but after the break I'm going to tell you the one guy who did not benefit from Team USA over the years hey doesn't it feel like most phone plans just weren't made with us in mind between bad coverage paying too much for your data you don't ever actually use, and crazy roaming charges, Google Fi has a phone plan made by Google

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the fantasy football show. It's been excellent. I highly recommend it if you are thinking about fantasy football. Speaking of fantasy football, Matthew Barry is coming on Thursday. We're running that Friday. Fantasy football. I have a lot of theories this year. So you're getting all those. So be ready for that. All right, back to Windhorst. So there's one guy who was a big loser with Team USA.

And it goes on his legacy and was kind of an under the radar NBA storyline where everybody talked about it. It was kind of a thing. Can NBA storyline where everybody talked about it. It was kind of a thing. Can you guess who that player is? Is it in the nineties or is it now? Or is it modern? The, the,

the modern last, last 15 to 16 years. Was it Chris Paul? No. Oh, Chris Paul. I didn't know there was Chris Paul. I thought,

I thought Chris Paul came off well in 08. Like I thought he was one of the, Chris Paul. I didn't know there was Chris Paul. I thought Chris Paul came off well in 08. I thought he was one of the... No, he did, but in 06... Or 2012. The last time they lost. Yeah. Yeah, I'm throwing out the mid-2000s. No, I was thinking of Dwight.

Oh, Dwight, yeah. Because I remember when he didn't play in 2012. Remember, he'd had, I think, back surgery. And it was like, oh shit, who are our centers going to be? And the recurring theme from anybody I talked to about it was, it's actually good that he's not here. They're not, they weren't, he didn't go over that well in 08 with the crew.

So I always thought that was funny. It was like Dwight Howard at the peak of his powers. And by the way, he had his best year too in 09 from that 08 experience. We left him out when we were talking about guys who benefited. But I think- Dwight Howard in 2008, 9, 10, 11 was-

Amazing. But I think it's interesting that he was by far the best center in the league and pretty much everybody was good that he wasn't going to be in the 2012 team. I want to go back to the four guys we talked about at the top. So Mitchell,

there's some Utah, you know, they made those moves. I like Bogdanovich. Conley's obviously massive. I still felt like they were too much of a finesse team, I guess is how I would put it. I worry about their ability to kind of bang.

And now after seeing this Mitchell thing and the response that he's been getting and now thinking about what that would look like with Connelly, and Connelly just taking away all the ball handling stuff from him and all set these guys up. You just worry about producing points. Do you buy this Utah thing as a title team? This has been one of the summer themes.

They've been kind of the hot, sexy, oh, watch out for those guys pick, are you buying? I also really liked their other sort of minor move at Davis. Yeah. You know, at value. So, you know, the thing with them is that they just haven't, well, they've had a couple of issues, but they haven't had shooting. And, you know, it wasn't just Rubio. They haven't well they've had a couple of issues but they haven't had shooting and um you know it wasn't just rubio they haven't had shooting and um also their schedule has been inverted the last few years so um i have i haven't studied their schedule um this year but they had like like by christ Christmas last year, they played half their

road games or something. And so they've started off slow and then they had injuries. And so they sort of been out of the conversation last couple of years. They've come on because their schedule has been funky and then way easier later. Yeah. So they, you know, they've kind of had, they've had, they've had difficult time gaining credibility because they've always played from behind. Um, and they've also, you know, they've, they've also just generally, um, you know,

that they haven't had, they haven't had the stars to draw in the eye. So Mitchell can change all that and then be a difference making player. So, I mean, by the way, uh, one of the most amazing things that happened this summer was the money that Miritich left on the table to go back to Spain. Everything happened so fast in those three days that we didn't think about it, but I still can't believe that that happened. And, like, I know it was reported he got, like, some crazy number, but I think it's closer to, like, $4 million million a year I don't think it's anything like that but anyway that's your

here nor there so like you know Bogdanovich is a two-way player who has proven to be I think pretty good and somebody much situation yeah and somebody who has shown he can actually defend LeBron, not shut him down, but at least bother him a tiny bit. You know? Yeah. A little sort of, maybe. And Conley can play on the ball or off. And I just think with, it's such a great fit.

I also like getting, I like getting that guy right at the point of his career, like where Kidd was at when he went to Dallas in 08-09, where you're getting the guy who's come really close a couple times but never was able to make the finals or get over the hump or whatever. And you just know he's showing up this year in the biggest way possible

on top of the fact that Mitchell's going to be making this little mini leap. I was watching them last year. I always just felt like when push came to shove, it was just too hard for them to score. That, you know, it really was just Mitchell trying to create stuff. And then there was nobody else on that team that I felt like could reliably get a bucket. And now I feel like Connelly will be able to be the second guy

that can get them some stuff. And then Bogdanovich, who's streaky, but is a guy who can take over game four of a playoff series and score 18 in the fourth or do something like that. So I do feel like they're offensively more unpredictable. And you know that twice in a playoff series, Jeff Green will have a good game. Oh, God.

They got Jeff Green on a little bit. Oh, I forgot he was on there. Wow. Rusillo's going gonna be so fired up that was one of his one of his NBA support group guys that's right that was a great clip

you know he was showing off his Venice Beach arms in that clip well he has to do it sometimes he started to go with the Tiger Woods shirt where he's showing off his arms. His philosophy is suns out, guns out. Mitchell, so here's the difference.

We were talking to him and Dwayne Wade before. Mitchell, last year, 5.1 free throw attempts in year two. Dwayne Wade in year two was 9.9. Dwayne Wade, people remember because it's a recency bias, like the later incarnation of Dwayne Wade. Young Dwayne Wade, he went to the line basically 10 to 10 and a half times a year for five straight years from 05 to 09.

On top of, he wasn't really shooting three-pointers, but that'll be the last piece for Mitchell. If he can, he needs to get to the rim and to the line a tiny bit more and then the Dwayne Wade thing will start to feel a little more real to me. But I'm excited. I think that's one of the best subplots.

Yeah, you put pressure on the official. Oh, that's true. That was the big, you know, that led to the big officiating crisis of 2006. Alright, so we talked about him. Second name, look, I could talk about Tatum for 10 hours, but nobody wants to hear that. I will say, I swear to God, it looks like he grew like an inch, an inch and a half. He looks like 6'10 to me. What did he look like in person?

Did he look taller or was it the facial hair? Yeah, so that's the thing. Like, his full beard is in now. Yeah. he looked like in person? Did he look taller or was it the facial hair? Yeah, so that's the thing, like, his full beard is in now. Yeah. So like, and this is coming from somebody who knows this kind of thing

because I like, I still can't grow a real beard. Right. Like, he's like, he literally has grown up. Like, he couldn't grow a full beard

and now he can. Yeah. Just from when he got in the NBA. And like, that's one, I mean, I know that that's sort of, that's sort of, why would you talk about that? But you think that doesn't show the way he's overall maturing? Look, I was so flabbergasted.

I've said it to you. I was so flabbergasted how great he was in the playoffs as a rookie. I was completely on his corner, completely a believer in him. I mean, I thought Kyrie, and this may have been an issue with Kyrie, but I thought Kyrie was coming in to support Tatum. Yeah, I don't think Kyrie felt that way. I know that he didn't feel that way. And Tatum, it was a bad year.

I mean, I don't know if it was the Kobe system stuff or whatever. I mean, that obviously didn't help. You know, he, he changed his attitude and changed the way he wanted to play. But I'm the huge believer in this guy after his rookie year. And if I'm wrong, I guess I'll just have to admit I'm wrong. So. Well, I will say I'm still there. They I think they have admitted his, his whatever his camp is,

and whoever works with him every day, that last year was a failure in strategy. And everything I've read and seen this year, or this summer, is he's trying to get back to, how do I finish? How do I bounce off people? How do I get to the line? How am I getting to the rim and how am I finish? How do I bounce off people? How do I get to the line? How am I getting to the rim and how am I finishing?

It's basically been the biggest thing he's been trying to do this year. He already knows he has those 18 to 20 foot fallaways, step backs, all that stuff. And that's honestly, you're not going to make more than like 40 to 45% of those. But the stuff of going to the basket and then the pull up three,

the step back, all that stuff. He's, I think going to be a threes and free throws guy way more than he was last year, which will really benefit him. But the thing is, if he,

if he got bigger and stronger and taller, that will allow them to basically, you know, play him and Jalen at the, at the same time for long periods of time. Which leads us to the third guy. Let me tell you something happened in

the scrimmage. So there was a scrimmage where it was inter-squad scrimmage where the select team wasn't there. They were playing each other in the scrimmage. And it was down to a one-point game, so they ran a last second shot. Like they even called a little timeout and dribble play.

And they dropped the play for Kemba Walker. And cause Kemba was the point guard on the one team. And Kemba's the leader of this team without question. And they put Jalen Brown on him. You know, the other, I can't remember who was coaching the teams, but I think,

I think, you know, Steve Kerr was sort of coaching one of the split squads. And I think Lloyd Pierce was coaching the other. And they put Jalen on, and Kemba had trouble getting the shot off. He was as great as Kemba is, and as great as he is. He has a history of being able to hit game-winning shots. In a tough situation like that against a great team,

which is what that team was, that split squad, it's going to be difficult for him because he decides to get the shot. And in that moment, it just reinforced that for this Celtics, the guy who's going to have to do it for them is going to have to be Tatum. I think that's what they want.

I think their dream for this season is Tatum becomes an all-NBA guy. That's in the perfect world. They already know what they have with Kemba. But Tatum is the piece where now you're not a 47-win team. Now you're in the 50s. If he jumps.

And the thing is, there's not that many good forwards in the East. There really aren't. If you go down the line, it's actually doable for him to be one of the best four forwards in the East, he has the talent but we'll see, because I felt this way about him last year and it was a letdown I think Kemba coming to Boston, he's not, like when Kyrie came to Boston, he was like, I'm taking this team now

I'm tired of being the understudy it's going to be my team I think Kemba's coming to Boston saying I tried to do it on my own and it didn't work I want to come into this team and I think Kemba's coming to Boston saying, I tried to do it on my own and it didn't work. I want to come into this team. And I think my feel in talking to Kemba and watching him and knowing him and knowing his game, my feel is he will be invested in Tatum growing into that level too.

I don't think Kemba doesn't have anything to prove. And he's got his money. I just think it's going to be a completely different scenario. It doesn't mean Tatum's going to grab the reins, but it's there for him, I think, to go that way. Yeah, so Kemba was the third guy I wanted to talk about. Just seems beloved by everybody. And I guess it was one of those things where, you know, he's in Charlotte.

It's not like they were ever relevant this decade. I didn't have a lot of time to, you know, sort my thoughts out about Kemba Walker. I didn't really know a lot about him. I hadn't read a ton. Obviously, he had the UConn thing, the title game, all that stuff. Liked when I watched him. Thought he seemed like a good guy. Played hard, all that stuff.

I don't think I was prepared for just what a magnetic guy he seems to be and just how beloved he is by everybody. He is one of like the top five guys in the league that nobody has anything bad to say about. And when you talk about what happened with the Celtics last year, just, just changing that dynamic and having your lead guy, just be an awesome guy who will do everything for anyone in the organization and is the perfect teammate. And, you know, it sounds like a cliche, but it's like, it's like they put the team through a car wash, you know, and they just scrubbed off everything. And then

it comes out and it's like, Kemba Walker is the new car smell. Um, but I haven't spent a lot of time with them. What, what does he like? The downside is, though, that they lost Horford. I mean, I think that if they had lost Kyrie and got Kemba to replace them and then kept Horford, I'd feel a lot better where they are. The losing of Horford

is what really, really stung them. And not only did it sting them because they lost a guy like that, but my feel from talking to those guys is it blindsided them. And they just didn't. I mean, they knew they were going to have to work out a contract with them, and they knew that it might get a little contentious. They just did not foresee not only leaving,

but going to one of their biggest rivals. I can confirm it was a blindsiding. Yeah. So here's the thing. I recognize Kyrie's ability to win you

a game at the highest level. And I've made a decision on Kyrie that I am not going to pay attention to or give much focus on anything that he says off the court. I'm going to monitor it, but I'm just going to wall that off. I'm going to pay attention to the rectangle and what he does on the rectangle. In my viewpoint, I don't think that you can win at the highest level if Kyrie is your best player.

I concur. Yeah. And I mean, I know that that's not exactly a controversial statement, but like, I think that, I mean, I don't know if he agrees. I don't know if he would agree with that, but I just think that that's the way it is. I don't think Kemba Walker can be your best player either. I agree.

Well, I think he can be your best player on a 45 win team, but if you're actually trying to win the Eastern finals, he needs to be one B. And that's what I think that, you know, the Hornets looked at him and said, you know, we don't think he's a hundred and $80 million,

a hundred and $200 million player. I don't necessarily have a problem with that evaluation. My problem is that you didn't know that six months earlier and that you then went and paid Terry Rozier, who I like. But you then went and paid Terry Rozier $58 million over three years. I love the, you know, Kevin Pelton, who was our guy at ESPN that analyzes all the contracts and gives the grades to everything. He's like, you know, we call him the machine because now he turns out content i remember pelton when he when he initially was reviewing the contract for terry rogier with the hornet he thought it was four years and 58 million and he gave it a negative rating it's too much money you know

you know and then he sent it into the editors and like, no, Kevin, you got this wrong. It's three years, $58 million. And he turned a whiter shade of pale and went low in the grade by another letter. That's my problem with the Hornets was, not that they didn't have that. I can understand looking at Kemba and saying he's not a $200 million player, which is why I think Kemba selecting the Celtics and by the way, I think we have to retire now that the Celtics are not a free agent destination. When they landed Gordon Hayward, Al Horford, and Kemba Walker, I realize none of them

are Kevin Durant or LeBron James, but landing those three guys in a five-year span Well, you also had Dallas going hard after Kemba. Right. And... It'd take them a second.

I'm actually... I got to say, I feel like the Celtics are the underdogs in that matchup. Right? You have Dallas with Porzingis and Doncic. Yeah. And Cuban and no state taxes. And you have the Celtics, which just came off the season from hell. Horford leaving, young guys.

But I just think he really, the organization and the coach and being back in the East Coast really resonated with him. The loss for me, I still wonder if Durant doesn't get hurt, how all of that shakes out. Because I do think there's a world

where maybe Durant and Kemba end up together. I think this Durant-Kyrie thing was a little bit shotgun wedding-ish. I know people seem to think they've planned this forever, but I think it was one of those, yeah, we should do that. That'll be cool. But I don't think it really got real

until the last four to five weeks that they were going to do this. And even after Durant got hurt, you know, I, I just don't think it was like they made a blood pact in January. I don't, I don't believe that's how it played out. What do you think? I think, I think Kyrie was ready to make the blood pact. I think Kyrie was, was, was ready for the ring. He was ready for the rose or whatever, the bachelor. I don't know. And he was ready to go. I don't know. I mean, the story that I heard,

um, was that, you know, this was, you know, Kyrie was all lined up. Kyrie had it all lined up. He was ready to go.

We're going to Brooklyn, et cetera. And then, you know, Kawhi called Durant. I don't know. You know, we're never going to hear the story from Kawhi.

Um, I don't know if Kevin will tell the story because, you know, Kevin talks a lot of the media and I don't know if Kevin will tell the story because, you know, Kevin talks a lot in the media and I don't know if he, I think, I don't think he lies, but I think sometimes his truth changes. Or he has multiple truths.

Yeah, it could be. He gave the interview to Chris Haynes last week and he said he never considered the Knicks and he was only going to always be the Knicks. Yeah, that's absurd. Yeah, it's absurd. It's not true.

I mean, I don't want to, you know, but so supposedly the story that I heard was that Kawhi called up Durant and said, hey, would you be interested in playing together? And like Durant, it was like so, like Durant was totally, from what I'm told, Durant was so not expecting that call. And he was like, whoa, wait a minute.

And he sort of just tapped the brakes for a period of time there. Maybe it was a day, maybe it was two hours, I don't know. But I think Durant could have, you know, I think we know about Durant is that he tends to be, his moods tend to change a little bit. And so I think, I think it could have looked on a lot of different ways and I'm not, I'm not in love with the Nets. Me neither.

I listen, Kyrie, go look at the Buck series. I don't know why he got a free pass for that. That was one of the worst performances in the history of Boston sports by a good player. And with the stuff he was doing defensively, their YouTube clips, I have no idea what he was doing in that series. And by the way, the Celtics don't either. It's one of the most inexplicable

last four games of a series performances in the history of the franchise. And go watch the games if you don't believe me. Go watch the weird switches he was doing, the terrible shots he was taking, the body language, how his teammates were reacting to him. I don't understand why we're just supposed

to forget that happened. It's very odd to me. I love the Nets front office. I think they did a great job to put themselves in position. I think they've drafted well. I think they've maximized their... You go look at their draft picks.

I'm actually kind of sad that some of the young guys that they hadn't played last year are going to see their playing time reduced a little bit this year. I was really excited about Rodi Koura. I think he's a really interesting

player. I liked him too. Yeah. I'm with you. Um, I just, I'm not, regardless of the injury, I just don't know how to, like, I,

I, I think Kenny Atkinson is going to need, um, like transcendental meditation or something to get through playing, you know, coaching those two guys because they're just really difficult. Um, I actually do think,

tell me if you think this could happen. Kyrie comes out and he's awesome for the first six weeks of the season. Like really difficult. I actually do think, tell me if you think this could happen. Kyrie comes out and he's awesome for the first six weeks of the season. Like really great. 28 a game, 50-40-90. Just awesome. Crowd going nuts. Everybody gets fired up.

And then around like mid-late December, it starts to flip a little bit. Does that sound realistic. I just can't, he's very difficult to read what's going to happen with him. You know, first off he's fragile physically. Yeah.

You know, um, he, he, one of the strangest things that happened this last year was that he fired his agent. Um, you know,

his agent, Jeff Wexler. Yeah. He did so many good things for Kyrie. I won't go into all the details because it'll be boring. But the Uncle Drew stuff, the deal that he had with Pepsi. Oh, that's amazing.

He made so much money from that. Yeah, because he owned the Uncle Drew character and the way they structured it. Yeah. And I don't even know Jeff that well. I don't think that... I know Kyrie doesn't like me and Jeff probably doesn't like me

either, but Jeff was a bulldog for Kyrie. Like, you know, there were so many times where Kyrie made a mess and Jeff would, you know, have to clean it up with teams or other people. And like, there was no, you know, Kyrie from where I sit, of course, I don't know everything that's going on, but from where I sit, could not have had a better advocate than Jeff Wexler. Unless something happened I don't know about, which is probably true.

I only have part of the information. I don't know. But I was just really surprised he made that switch. Yeah, but wasn't it part of the recruitment, though? You had Roc Nation, who have just clear-cut blood ties to the Nets. And on top of that, you have Joe Sy, who just took over the Nets this week for a pretty, 2.3 was pretty high.

And you have those two, those two sides lobbying, KD and Kyrie. Rock Nation, we're going to blow you up. China, you guys are the two biggest things in China. And it was a whole selling pitch that worked. Clearly. Clearly that's worked.

I'm just saying, like, you know, you know, guys leave their agents, it happens all the time. I just, you know, that just, you know, I don't know, maybe it'll end up being a good thing. I'm just saying, when that happened, you know, and the relationship, I guess, had been fraying for a while, but the,

it's just sort of, you know, Kyrie making that move was surprising to me. I want to talk about the summer of 2018. I wanted to just quickly mention the fourth Team USA guy, and then we'll take a break. All right. De'Aaron Fox, you mentioned. So I did a mailbag thing like three weeks ago, and one of the questions was,

who's going to be the best point guard in the league in five years? And I said, I thought it was going to be De'Aaron Fox. And it seemed like some people were surprised. The Sacramento blog wrote a blog post about it. They were excited about it. To me, it's like the no-brainer pick, unless you want to say Luka's a point guard, which I don't think he is.

I don't feel, I think Mitchell's going to be a two guard. To me, Fox is, he'll get better every year. He truly gives a shit. All he wants to do is be on a winning basketball team. I think he's an incredible teammate. I would put him in top five day to day. All I care about is sticking up for the guys around me and making them better.

I don't feel like he cares about stats. And I think he's the kind of guy who's going to end up being on a great team. What did you see from him during the Team USA week? Because obviously he impressed everybody. Major competitor. Major, major, major competitor. And he's developed his game.

He is an expert level at the floaters around the rim. Yeah. And, I mean, he is so good at it and I don't know how good Sacramento is going to be. Uh, I could just say that I think, um, the networks may have aired by only giving them one national TV game.

I agree. I, I will, I'm willing to wager that some of the, when some of the games get flexed, it's going to be to add Kings games. And I of the, when some of the games get flexed, it's going to be to add Kings games. And I don't, you know, the West is so competitive.

Um, but you know, they stepped forward last year and, you know, whatever happened with Dave Yeager, I mean, kind of surprising that change happened, but okay. But Luke Walton, the way Luke wants to coach fits the way that team is constructed. It seems to me to be a good marriage of coaching style and what they have on their team. And they want to get up and go, and they want to play fast, and Fox can play super fast. One of the fastest guys with the ball. Kind of reminds me a little bit, you know, you know, in 2000, you know, we, we, we talked about 2010 Durant, but Derek Rose was on that 2010 championship team.

And while he didn't like dominate like Durant did, he had a good summer and then he comes in and ends up winning the MVP. That's another team USA success story. That's why I don't understand why these young guys won't want to be on the team. It's crazy. Go look at the last 15 years. Like, again, I want to be clear. There are unknowns out there.

Like, I don't know if certain guys have injuries. But, like, the one guy who I cannot believe is not here, and I know this is tedious. I don't know if he's got something going on that he may have a great reason why he's not, not criticizing him, but I am stunned that Devin Booker is not on this roster. Yeah.

Devin Booker would be terrific to be on this team. Well, look, you're going to have a long playoff run with the Suns. You're going to play 100 games in eight months. You got to pick your spots. To me, that just shows that the jury's out of Devin Booker. Like I said,

he could have a real good reason I don't know about. I was just very surprised he's not here. KOC and I argue about Devin Booker all the time. I think he is a good stats bad team guy until he proves me wrong.

So, that's where I stand on Devin Booker. But I think- I'm just saying, for your fantasy team, Yeah, great. consider De'Aaron Fox.

What? Oh, interesting. I like it. Let's take a break. Did you know, on average, it takes police 45 minutes to respond to a home security alarm?

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July, is that a fun time for you now? Or is that just like an ongoing nightmare trying to chase down everything, knowing that the league is a snow globe and it's just going to get shaken and your life is just going to be in complete flux? Well, it's a lot more fun with the beast newsbreaker on my team.

Yeah, that's true. Okay, Fair enough. Yeah. Uh, I would say out of every 10 tips I give Woj, he knows nine of them. Um, and,

uh, maybe eight, eight and a half. Um, this year I probably knew about six or seven signings, like not only that they were done, but what the numbers were,

um, by within 48 hours of start of free agency. Um, and you know, you gotta be careful. You can't rush out and report something cause things can fall apart. There were other things that did fall apart that we thought for sure were going to happen.

That did fall apart. Um, but, uh, this, this year, you Yeah. You know, that we thought for sure were going to happen. It did fall apart. But this year, you know, the NBA is supposedly doing some, not supposedly, they are, they're doing some tampering investigation. I don't know what they're going to do because they've pretty much thrown their hands up. And, you know, free agency begins at the Combine now because the Combine, they've turned it into a real convention, kind of like the NFL.

And the Combine used to be during the finals, actually. Years ago, it used to actually take place in the early part of the finals. Now it takes place in mid-May. And so basically free agency starts there. If your team is eliminated, your free agency starts at the Combine.

When you meet with the agents there to talk about their draft picks, you're beginning to have conversations and begin to talk about structures of offers. And so there were just all kinds of deals done. Now, the thing that was the most amazing to me was, you know, Kawhi Leonard's play, the scenario that lined up there is a historic scenario

because it took the perfect storm. For the Clippers to give that much up to get Paul George, the Clippers had to have a legitimate fear that Kawhi was not going to come to them. And, you know, if it had been the Pistons or the Jaguars, or even a team like the Mavericks, it was the Lakers that they were worried about losing to.

Yeah. And I think Paul George has done his last two teams an incredible service. This is a guy who's managed a trade twice. And both times, the team made out okay. The Pacers, we didn't think of it at the start, but the Pacers got Victor Oladipo and Sabonis. Yeah. And it's been the foundation of where they are now, where they are

a competitor in the East. The trade that the Thunder made is one of the most incredible trades in the history of pro sports. Now, Sam Presti and his team have to go out there and use those assets, and they've got to take advantage of them. They don't have the players yet.

But that power play that Kawhi exerted, it required just the right set of circumstances. And the situation that the Lakers were in was amazing. Because the Lakers

had to wait for him. It would have been insane not to wait for him. You know, whatever percentage chance that they thought they had, they had to. And even if they thought that there was a possibility that they were getting played,

but, you know, basically, when they got the word that they should delay the Anthony Davis trade execution, which really everybody wanted to do because it affected all these different draft picks. Pelicans had gone out and made other trades with it.

It affected all these different guys coming to the summer league. Everybody wanted the Lakers and Pelicans to make that move four minutes after the moratorium lifted. And the Lakers delayed it because they thought they were going to get him. Even that little delay right there caused the Clippers to sweeten the offer because of that.

It was just like, I could probably go on a three-hour dissertation about the incredible maneuvering of leverage there. And you left out two things. One was, it doesn't seem like he ever wanted to go to the Lakers and was intentionally trying to fuck them. So there's one. And then two, he gets the Clippers to give up

really the craziest trade anyone's ever made in the NBA for just like what you've given up for one player. Nobody's ever made a trade like that. And then doesn't sign for four years. I know. That part, can you imagine OKC, like Sam Presti's the five days after the trade, he's like eating breakfast.

He's like, oh, I wonder what's going on online. And then finds out it's going to be two-year contracts for Kawhi and Paul George. And he has all their picks until 2058? I mean, that had to have been like a celebration. So I don't know if Kawhi actually wanted to screw. He did screw the Lakers. I think what Kawhi wanted was Paul George on the Clippers.

And he wanted to maximize that leverage to make it happen. And the Lakers were just the byproduct that came out of the back of the machine. I think he wanted to, I am confident he wanted to screw them and never wanted to go there. I mean, I'm not saying, I'm not saying to screw with you.

I just, I'm not there in my head, but I can tell you that like, first off, Steve Ballmer is a businessman. Like, here's the thing that I understand about Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer didn't become worth $40 dollars because he was a programmer yeah steve steve ballmer was the business um at microsoft that's what he did

and in some ways he's a salesman and and uh that's one of the reasons why he's you know when he goes out in public he sort of acts like a salesman, pumping up the crowd and everything like that. It had to kill him from a business perspective because it's not the type of deal he'd want to make. It's like buying a—yes, he bought a premium product, but he just blasted over the top. I guess that's why he bought, just blasted over the top. Um, he bought a $20 million house for $60 million, but he didn't care because if he didn't get the house, he was screwed. That's true. But he actually got a two year lease on the, on the house. So, so, so without going, so here's the thing,

the Clippers front office, when this was over, I know that there was this incredible like oh my god look what they pulled off but the clippers front office was kind of numb because they were like yes we pulled this off and yes we pulled this off because for the last couple of years we made like 17 consecutive moves that put us in this position. But we now are staring at the cliff. And we know that this could end with us holding diamonds or this could end with us in a disaster. Well, and on top of it, you didn't even mention Kawhi was on one leg the last two rounds. I know he's great, but it's clearly like he's not 100%. And then Paul George just had surgery on his left shoulder and his right

shoulder, which seems like a problem. And he's also has a metal rod in his leg. So it's not like, it's not like they bought like, you know, two brand new cars from the, uh, from the shop. These are some cars that have miles on it and some wear and tear. And if this doesn't work out, there's an exit plan for both of them. We've already seen Paul George screw over two teams. And we've already seen Kawhi

say goodbye to two teams. That's right. But I look at it from Ballmer's standpoint, you talk about how successful he is. The guy has more money than he's ever going to know what to do with. That's true. He made this quest

from the moment he bought the team in 2014 to make them the most relevant team in LA. The Lakers did all these moves. He's trying to get a building done in Englewood. And at some point, you just got to push all the chips into the middle. And that's what he's doing. He's like, I want the state. I want the new arena.

As an LA guy, do you care about the palace intrigue going on in Englewood? Because I think it's amazing. Oh, I think it's the single best story that only people like you and I care about. I guarantee 90% of the people listening right now don't care. But you're talking about James Dolan, the Lakers, Irving Azoff, Steve Ballmer, and just an incredible amount of bitterness. And people, lawyers- There's another billionaire involved too.

Who? There's another billionaire involved. Dan Kroenke. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stan Kroenke. I'm sorry, Stan Kroenke, for leaving you out. Yeah. This is, it's the most amazing real estate story that's happened in LA this decade.

It involves two coasts. Right. And the Lakers are involved, you know, because like there was a whole thing where they tried to recruit them back. And Ballmer like backed the current mayor of Inglewood and Jim Dolan tried to fund some challenger. And as usual, Jim picked wrong. It's like the story of his career. He backed the wrong horse. He threw, he threw good money after bad.

The guy got crushed in the election. Um, and there's totally, um, you know, uh, underhanded business going on. Like, you know, Jim Dolan was told one thing and they pulled a total bait and switch. Like it could be a total, uh, FFAC American, American. There's no crime. There's no,

it's like, you know, it's, it's a high crime misdemeanors, but well, and then the final piece of that is you have two sides who, when push comes to shove, both say,

well, fuck you. Sue me. I'll get the best lawyers possible. Let's just go. Let's get in the ring. But now you have both sides saying that. So usually it's one side who's really adamant about it,

but you have two of the hall of fame. I don't give a fuck. I'll hire every lawyer there is. Let's go. Let's climb into the ring right now. And there's emails and Jeannie Boss putting stuff into emails that she never should have put. It's amazing. Everybody's in character.

Dolan, as you pointed out, a jackass as always. Jeannie Buss and the Lakers just completely incompetent, doing things they should never do, trusting the wrong people. All the same things they've done all decade. In over their head. In over their head and just completely incompetent. And then Balmer just chest puffed out. I don't care. We're doing this.

Let's go. Let's build the arena. Well, no, Steve, you can't build the arena there. They're the form. I don't care. Let's do this. I got the, well, somebody stopped me. I dare you.

It's great. It's like a car crash with three cars. It's like a three-way intersection and the cars are just going toward each other. I would love to take a year off and write a book on this story, but it would be career suicide because nobody would read the book.

That should be the name of the book, Career Suicide by Brian Windhorst. That'd be amazing. I would sell like a movie option on it for $10,000 and it would never get made but here's the irony of all of this nobody cares about the Clippers they can do whatever they want it's a Lakers town it's always going to be Lakers

town I'm sorry Steve Ballmer I was here for the entire Chris Paul Blake Griffin era I have season tickets for it I enjoyed going to the games for the most part the Lakers were completely irrelevant. Oh, so you don't have your Clippers tickets anymore? Oh, I still have them. God, yeah.

Oh, you still have them? Of course. Are you going to be a businessman and just sell them this year? There's a couple games. There's a couple games we might be going to the highest bidder. But I went through the schedule. I was really excited. They get the Lakers twice.

They get all these teams in the West. The Celtics are coming. Gian was really excited. They get the Lakers twice. They get all these teams in the West. The Celtics are coming. Giannis. You're excited that the Clippers season ticket holder. You should be. But I'm excited for the other teams. It might be one of those things where I'm driving to the arena on a Wednesday night and

find out at 7.15, Kawhi's sitting this one out again. I know. This is a struggle. How big of a deal are... Because the Clippers, when they had Lob City, they didn't really rate.

I mean, we pay attention to them and everything, but they didn't capture attention. But that's the key point in this. They had a three-year run to take basketball from the Lakers in LA. They had a three-year run to take basketball from the Lakers in LA. They had a way better team. They, in 2014 and 15, were legitimately contenders that could have won the title. And if you go back and actually look at this two series that they blew, it's kind of

an incredible choke job both times. And they really could have won the title either of those years. It's conceivable. Nobody here cared. People were just like, when's Kobe retirement? How's Kobe's Achilles? Do you think we have a chance to get whoever in 2016? Can we get Durant? People, they're just Laker fans

here. You can't change it. You're not changing DNA. I think the Knicks are in, you know, I feel the same way about the Knicks in New York. I do think there's a Brooklyn thing that you have so many young people in Brooklyn, a lot of transplants, that the Nets could become more of a thing if they're actually good. With the Clippers, I think people are just excited that for the first time ever,

the two teams are going to be really good at the same time. The only two other times this really has happened is in 06. I had season tickets that year too. The one great Elton brand year when the Suns beat the Clips in seven, but the Lakers almost beat the Suns in round one and there was going to be a Lakers-Clippers round two series and then the Lakers blew it.

That was the one year. And then the other year was 2012 where after the shortened season, we're going into the 12-13 season. They trade for Dwight Howard and Steve Nash. The Clippers have Lob City for a full year and it felt like it was going to be this head-to-head battle. And then the Lakers just, you know, the, the, they stepped on the banana.

Yeah. So it's never really happened. So I think, you know, Lakers Clippers opening night with Davis, who I think has a real chance to be the MVP this year and LeBron and then Kawhi, the one guy who's really been able to go toe to toe with LeBron in a significant way, other than Durant, Paul George, and all the Lou Williams and Pat Beverly

stepping on people. That's going to be awesome. I can't wait for that game. Yeah, it's going to be, you know, it's a season opening night and Christmas. I mean, right there, you have, you know, the league recognizes it. To me, the amazing thing to me is that you're going to have LeBron or Kawhi

playing like every other night in the garden. You know, Anthony Davis, Paul George, like Aaron, not the guard, sorry. The Staples. Yeah. And that's going to be a great atmosphere. You know, you're going to have a whole bunch of relevant games. Even some of those guys that I will say this, the Lakers schedule, it always is a little bit backloaded because the post football season, they put all the big games in the post football season. This year is extreme.

The Lakers schedule before Christmas day, and obviously it depends on health, is a cakewalk. It is extraordinarily favorable to them. They, and the thing about it is that lebron got into a routine and i don't blame him for it or he would ease himself into season because for you know for eight years he and you know he played into june and so he's like look uh my training camp goes until january 1st guys you know um i i got it i don't think he can do that anymore. I think that the Lakers got to come out and, and like, they need to be like in first or second place on Thanksgiving.

Um, they, they, you know, they need to take the pressure off of Vogel, all that stuff. My guy Vogel. Uh,

one more break. And then I want to talk about Lamar. Hey, everyone knows about the risks of driving drunk. Unfortunately, we didn't really know about the risks when I was in college, but now we know. You could get in a crash.

People could get hurt or killed. But here's some surprising statistics. Almost 29 people in the United States die every day in alcohol-impaired vehicle crashes. That's one person every 50 minutes. And even though drunk driving fatalities have fallen by a third in the last three decades, drunk driving crashes still claim more than 10,000 lives each year. Drunk driving can have a big impact on your wallet. You can get arrested.

You can incur huge legal expenses. You could lose your license, your job. What can you do to prevent drunk driving? Well, plan a safe ride home before you start drinking. Designate a sober driver or call a taxi or a ride sharing. Someone you know has been drinking. If that's happening, take their keys, arrange for them to get a sober ride home. We all know the consequences of driving drunk, but one thing's for sure, you're wrong if you

think it's no big deal. Drive sober or get pulled over, especially with Labor Day weekend coming up a little bit. That's a message from the NHTSA. So I talked about Dan Gilbert's comments about LeBron last week with Rosillo when we did our podcast, but wanted to just get your thoughts on the concept of wins the title in 2016. Now this is going to be his 18th season. Has a son in high school, ninth grade, that he obviously loves watching his kids and especially the older son. And he's got Davis on his team. At what point do we wonder, is he going to be as obsessed with this as he used to be? Because in some cases, like Tom Brady, who's 42 now, and is still just football, football, football, football, and all he wants to do is win football games

and doesn't seem to have a lot of other hobbies. I guess the difference with LeBron is it does seem like he has other stuff he's interested in, and he's interested in building his business, and he's in Space Jam, and he's got his two kids and he's got all this stuff going on with rich and all those guys taco Tuesday. He's got his social media. He's way more on social stuff like that. At some point is basketball just a part of everything he's doing? Or do you feel like he's more wired like Tom Brady that once we get to October, this is it. He's going to be obsessed with trying to win another title.

Yeah. So, I mean, the thing about LeBron is so often people want to make things a black and white issue. You know, binary. It's either yes or no. When so often it's so many different shades of gray. And so when Griff said that LeBron doesn't quite have the same drive that he has before, I don't think that's necessarily an inaccurate statement. But if you watch LeBron play his last year in Cleveland, he played 82 games. Yeah.

And his playoff run was as strong as he's ever had. Agree. I don't think you could look at that and say that that guy wasn't going absolutely all out to try to win. Well, hold on. The thing is, though, he took the six weeks off in January and February. I know. We didn't guard anybody. That's what I'm saying.

It's the shades of gray. So, like, do I think there was a moment in LeBron's head last year where he said, this team ain't it and it ain't happening? And instead of having the gas slowly, slowly more depressed as the season goes along, where he ramps up and ramps up and ramps up and all of a sudden March comes and he's the best player in the league, that he pulled the foot off the gas and stopped? Yes, I do believe that. I do believe that he made a business decision

about last season. But I don't think that that means that he has lost his willingness to go all out. I mean, in all honesty, his plan, his business plan is Lakers are playing the 2021 finals, hopefully winning them. They come right off the parade

and he immediately walks off the parade, and he immediately walks off the parade into promotion for Space Jam. Like, you want to talk about where his business and winning align, they align right there. And, you know, I mean, that's the thing, like, part of his brand is he's got to continue to be a winner. And he got hurt last year. It was the first time he really had an injury like that that lingered. And then that affected him, too.

So I'll put it this way. I remember with Tim Duncan, I decided that if I was going to be on one side of Tim Duncan, I was going to be late. I was not going to put Tim Duncan into the ground before. If you want to accuse me of something, say that I stayed too long at the party. I'm in that camp on the brunt. I am still in the belief that he is absolutely a difference-making player

who can dominate games, who can win playoff series, who can be the transitional guy. Do I think he's got the best team? I do not. Do I give him a fighting chance in a playoff series? I do. Do I think that this got the best team? I do not. Do I give him a fighting chance in a playoff series? I do. Do I think that this Lakers team

is going to win a championship? I'm not strong on that because I don't know how they're going to get better because they've traded away all of their assets. Yeah. But I am not, I am not in the, and I don't think David Griffin is either.

I think Griff got trapped in a little bit in the way that he said it, you know, but. Yeah way that he said it. Yeah, but he said all that stuff privately to 20 people. I mean, we know he felt that way. Come on. What you said about staying too long at the party, I've been

in that camp with the Belichick Brady Patriots for five years now, and it's been glorious. I'll just tell you. It's just great to be like, oh, nobody's going to be eating this shrimp on the table. I'll have two more shrimp. This is great. Oh, wait, people are coming back. Oh, good. I have pole position at the party. Yeah. Listen, I'm not counting out LeBron by any means. I just think he's one of the best seven players in the league. And I don't know what the order is, but I don't think he is a unanimous number one now.

I think Giannis is the best regular season player in the league. And some other people might be ascending toward that. And then when you get to the playoffs, I think a lot of people are on that level now. I think it would, I just think the league's really good. My big takeaway from the last couple of years, especially like going backwards and looking at 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007,

some of those seasons, and some of the people that basically teams with one star that were able to make the conference finals and some of the guys that are just in the playoff rotations of teams that were in the conference finals or even the finals versus where we are now and, and the depth and, um, like that Clippers team, they're, they're deep. Like they, they have eight to nine guys that are going to be really good.

And then, you know, depending on where Iguodala goes, which LA team he ends up on, um, these teams are just deep and good and have talented dudes who have been there and position and have done it. I really, I wish Durant, Durant not being involved this season is a tough one for me because I do feel like. It's tough for the East.

It's tough for the East and tough for him. Just like, you know, you only have so many years, especially for him where, you know, seven foot guy, there's only so many years you're going to be able to put up 30 any night.

We saw it with Dirk. Dirk, 2011 was really his last, maybe 2012. And then you kind of move into a different phase of your career. That's something LeBron has, for the most part, been able to avoid. I'm bummed by the Durant thing because I really doubt that he can come back

and be one of those guys. But as we talked about earlier, that's the great thing about this league right now is somebody kind of fades off a little bit and there's three more people ready to jump up and take that spot. Yeah. You of course remember the LeBron when he scored 29 to 30 points, his first year,

he made the finals 2007. It was basically where he just declared, I am, you know he made the finals 2007. It was basically where he declared, I am over the real deal. I went back and watched that game. It was on Classic, NBA TV Classic,

probably three, four years ago. I now believe that that's not even in LeBron's top 12 games of all time. If you go back and watch that game, with all due respect to those guys, I now believe that that's not even in LeBron's top 12 games of all time. Right. Because if you go back and watch that game, I mean, with all due respect to those guys, I mean, they won. I mean, nothing against them.

If you go back and watch the way that game was played, it was a horribly played game. The NBA was not in a good place back then. No. The talent on the floor was, like, and that's the thing. The NBA is so much different and it's so much a better place now. And that's

not LeBron's fault. If LeBron doesn't lead the Lakers to a title, it doesn't mean he's quit wanting to be super competitive. It just means it's hard. It's harder now than it was before. Right now, the league's in a place where the players are so powerful.

I don't want to talk about player empowerment. I'm talking more like, even online, you talked 15 years ago, if you wrote a piece about whoever and it was critical, the piece just kind of came and went and people read it.

They might talk about it on Sports Radio Station. You might get some emails. It's over. Now, you might write that piece and that person might tweet back at you. Or you might have a whole army of fans of this person doing a Beyonce, Bayhive thing coming at you. And there's been this weird shift

where criticism of players is becoming almost a little bit dangerous, which I think is really fascinating. I don't mean dangerous like somebody's lives are at stake. Ask the NCAA. They just got bullied right out of their own shoes. That's the thing. The Rich Paul rule, I thought,

was such a fascinating thing to unfold where, first of all, it wasn't the Rich Paul rule. It was just, you know, Rich Paul is an example of somebody the rule was targeted, but it wasn't like we've got to stop Rich Paul. But then LeBron tweets Rich Paul rule. It immediately becomes the Rich Paul rule and everybody gets completely bent out of shape about it. And within six hours, the NCAA, which is one of the most loathsome institutions we've ever had in this country,

but also never backs down really ever and does everything wrong and incorrectly almost all the time. And the NCAA is like- They're constantly on the wrong part of the ball. They're on the wrong side of history just for decades on end. And even the NCAA is like,

whoa, man, the heat's a little hot here. We got to change this. So this is why LeBron and his guys are, I mean, like they don't bat a thousand, but you better be careful because they, at this point, still LeBron has the juice. That ended up making Rich more powerful. I'm not saying that they targeted Rich, but that was sort of aimed at limiting someone like Rich Paul's power. And they flipped it around. Rich wrote a, uh, a, uh, you know, a, uh, an op-ed in the athletic and they changed the rule that day. Now maybe they had decided they were going to change that day

days earlier and how they could change the rule that day is lunacy. Why wouldn't they just wait? I mean, now rich, now he went from being a martyr to a conqueror in 15 minutes. I mean, now Rich, not only he went from being a martyr to a conqueror in 15 minutes. I mean, I mean, be careful messing with those guys. I don't have a dog in this fight. I really don't care. I do think I do think the

Rich deification this year has been fascinating to watch because, for two reasons. The Sports Illustrated cover was so over the top, the Kingmaker. And then all the stuff that happened this summer, it's like, the dude's an agent. He represents players.

Like, settle down, everybody. The dude goes and their contract's up and he goes in and negotiates a new contract. This isn't the big mastermind of the 21st century. Let's all settle down. The Anthony Davis thing, where he basically convinces Davis

to throw away a season of his career, but now that is celebrated. Maybe this just isn't my generation. I'm confused by that because I felt like that trade could have happened in the summer. If Anthony Davis hired him and said, get me on the Lakers ASAP

and he delivered that, then that shows the power. But it wasn't ASAP though. It took five months and he threw away a season of his career and as we know from over and over again in the NBA, you don't want to do that because you might get hurt.

Your career might not be as long as you thought it was going to be. You don't want to give away seasons in your prime. In my opinion, I do agree that Anthony Davis's reputation was pretty much spotless. I mean, he, he had a limited playoff success and that you could use against him. And,

and, um, now his reputation has this on it and he will have to recover from it. And that was sort of a self-inflicted injury. He could have handled it a different way. But I will say when it comes to Rich and you, you know, I've known Rich for 15 years.

The worst thing you can do is, is insult him or underestimate him. That's only working for him. If you, if you want to try to limit his power, start treating him with du-duper respect. Because one of the reasons why he's been so successful is that people have bad-mouthed him and Maverick and LeBron since the start and underestimated them. And they keep, you know, the bar keeps kicking on the ground or people keep kicking dust on him.

He just keeps jumping over the bar. You know, they thrive on disrespect. They thrive on you thinking that they're dumb or have some sort of ulterior motive. Like, that's what's gotten them so successful.

In a lot of ways, the worst thing that could happen for Rich is for people to stop insulting him and just consider him at the top of the field. because he's been so successful in the other direction. It's like your Jedi mind tricket? Yeah, yeah. And based on the way things are going,

he's still getting his quite a steady stream of insults and disrespect. So I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon. I feel like he's pretty popular. The Davis thing, the one thing that I've noticed is they have definitely integrated him in that whole family in an unusual way. Like even seeing LeBron just, I mean, Davis just at LeBron's house for dinner,

like a social media thing. It does seem like he's become LeBron's little brother, so to speak. And my question is this, because I've said this before in a pod, but I'm interested in your take because I haven't talked to you about it. At some point, LeBron is going to decide, because he's got the superhuman basketball brain and he's going to put all this stuff in the little computer in his brain and it's going to spit out how he should handle this season. And there's a scenario where he looks at this and goes,

I'm going to get Anthony Davis the MVP of this season. I'm going to build this dude up Bundini Brown style. Every interview I give, I'm going to talk about how he's the best player I've ever played with.

I'm going to take a backseat just enough so he can get his points, do a couple crunch time things. to talk about how he's the best player I've ever played with. I'm going to take a backseat just enough so he can get his points, do a couple of crunch time things. I'm going to build the myth of Anthony Davis and be a little bit like Dwayne Wade, 2011-ish or in that range when he was trying to get LeBron's confidence going and he would take a step back every once in a while. And then in the playoffs, I'll just do what I always do. But I'm going to use this regular season to build this superhuman MVP candidate, Tim Duncan 2.0 monster.

Do you think that's conceivable? It's conceivable, although I think LeBron wants to reestablish his own dominance as well. Right. So that would be, yeah, that would be the flip side of that, right? If he's like, no, actually I want to win the MVP one more time. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how it's going to, we'll, I feel like we're going to know in mid September in training camp in those first two days when he starts giving interviews, if the narrative is Davis, Davis, Davis, Davis, then we'll know now. Yeah.

And he's never played with a guy like this before. He's never played with, I mean, the best big man he's played with, with Bosch. Yeah. Um, but the big,

but the big men in his, in his career have been relegated to, uh, high level role players. Right. Um, Bosch was so super valuable for his defensive ability, and it was like, Chris, go stand in the corner.

How come you didn't get 12 rebounds tonight? You only got eight. And Kevin Love, the same thing. Love very famously would get, he would score 12 points every first quarter, and then they would never throw him a pass again unless he was, you know, in the corner with five seconds on the shot clock. So it would take a pretty dramatic shift for LeBron to go that direction, but he doesn't have another perimeter player to use. I mean, that's the one thing about the Lakers is, you

know, their perimeter, it's weak relative to the star power in the league. I hated the team they put together. I just feel like they have 12 guys who are all going to think they should play. It's exactly what you don't want to do when you're building a team. It's better than it was last year. Yeah, but it's still not great. It's better than it was last year. It's still not great.

They have more shooting this year, but they just have a lot of guys. Is Boogie Cousins going to be happy playing 20 minutes a game? No. Is Rondo going to be happy as the 11th man? No. What are they doing? The Lakers have an inherent problem, and that is that for them to be at their best,

Anthony Davis should play center, and LeBron should play power forward. Yes. No kidding. But Anthony Davis doesn't want to play center, and LeBron doesn't want to play power forward, and the coach that they have is not going to be able to force them into it. So they're going to have to play Boogie and or JaVale,

or Boogie or JaVale, with Davis and LeBron, which is exactly what you don't want to do in 2020. I'm sorry. That's just not a lineup you want. They really, really need Kuzma to be good. They need him to take a step toward

all-star status. I don't see it. I just don't see it. What's his position on that team? Literally, what position does he play? Well, the fundamental problem with the Lakers, whether you think they're a contender or not.

And I think they are obviously because they have two of the best 10 players in the league is their two best players play the exact same position. And unless, yeah, they're both force. Kuzma conceivably is a four too I'm not sold on him being a three and I don't know I just think it's a weird team I think they put together

the team that I actually think would be pretty good is if Danny Green was the three and then you just played another perimeter guy at the two and then whoever your point guard is and you just go a little smaller and a little faster. But that involves LeBron playing at a pace

that he might not want to do for the first 82 games. I think it's one of the five things that I'm looking forward to seeing how it unfolds because you have a new coach, as you said. He's got Jason Kidd's breath on his back. He's dealing with clutch and all that stuff. And on top of it,

trying to integrate these two guys who've never played with each other, and then this whole kind of roster that's just weird. And then Boogie Cousins on top of it, and Rondo, and people who are proven in the wrong situation. Those guys will go sideways, guys. I don't know.

I think there's going to be moments this year where they look spectacular because I think Boogie looks like he's in really good shape. He's going to be motivated. He should be healthier. I think there'll be moments where it works out great, but I think at the highest level, I don't know if their roster is balanced. but I think at the highest level, I think,

I don't know if their, their, their roster is balanced. And this is my biggest thing about the Davis trade. They look, they did what they had to do. I mean, they got a 34 year old LeBron,

but how would they improve that roster? You know, and this is a, this is the same thing with the, with the Clippers. They've, they've traded away all their fodder, but at least the Clippers have some depth and

some stuff that they've got. The Lakers have no functional way to improve the roster unless somebody is just in love with Kuzma and Kuzma becomes the guy. That's the legitimate way, but because they've traded away all of their future and because none of the guys

that they signed are real trade assets. I guess Danny Green to a certain extent, but let's say you trade Danny Green, you've got to get a guy to fill his position. They don't have the depth, they don't have the extra pieces and parts. Here's the problem with Kuzma. He has to be a good three-point shooter

to be a successful player. And he shot 30% last year. Like 30% is bad. 35% is like, all right, well, you know, 35% if you'd made two more per hundred, suddenly that's 38. 30% is like, I miss every seven of 10 threes. So.

You know what they should, you know what they should really do? They should find Darren Collison. Because he's got to be in LA, right? Yeah. And they should just like keep checking in on him. Oh, Hey Darren, how's everything going? Is everything going good with your, with your charity or your program or whatever? Okay, cool. Cool.

Cool. Cool. Just checking in. Just want to let you know. Hey, Hey, Hey Darren, would you like to come to the game tonight? We'd love to have you sit in the front row. Yeah, are you working with some kids?

Here, here's four tickets. Bring three kids. I thought he was doing a whole religious thing. I don't know. Find him wherever he is. Just let him know. Hey, Darren, if you have a change of heart sometime, let us know.

Because I'm not saying that, you know, we're not talking about Isaiah Thomas in his prime here, but, you know, that type of player, the guy they could really use. I'm not sold on their backcourt, to say the least. Here's their actual backcourt. Caldwell Pope, Bradley, Avery Bradley, who is one of the worst offensive players in the league the last two years, Quinn Cook, Alex Caruso, Rayjean Rondo, Troy Daniels.

They're just throwing darts at a fucking dartboard with that. I kind of. Caruso. I kind of like Caruso. I'm with you. I kind of like him. Caruso had like the best, well, I mean, he didn't have a better season than Caldwell Pope, but like Caruso was like the best player at the end of last year amongst all those guys.

Yeah, I kind of liked him. I used to do a thing in my column. Caldwell Pope had a few stats. Yeah, I used to do, back when I wrote and my fingers worked, I used to have, I'd do the end of the season column and I would do the guys I inexplicably liked, all-stars. And it would all be guys like Caruso. Caruso, like the definition of, you'd be watching random Laker games in March and be like, Caruso, it's kind of got a little something going. I took up too much of your time.

Are you going to be in LA more this year? I'll be, I mean, to be in LA more this year? I'm in LA every other week. I have been for three years for Rachel's show. What I really need is everyone's thoughts for me in China in three weeks. I'm a picky eater and I get nervous.

The US plays in four different cities in China. There's a lot of intra-Chinese travel. I've never been there before. All right, so in your Twitter replies, you want some Chinese food recommendations or some things. What I need is people to overnight me pizzas.

Yes. You know? All right. And so the next time I see you, overnight me pizzas, you know? And so, so the next time I see you, I have no idea what state I'm going to be in, but yeah, I'll be around LA a lot. Well, and don't forget about, uh, you could read Windhorse book. Is it, it's in hardcover the rest of the year? When does it go to paperback? I don't know. I haven't heard, but it did make the best seller list., so that was good. Which was not easy because

right when the book came out, LeBron went away and hasn't played basketball since. The last thing we've seen of him since the book came out was dunking at his kids' game, which he got criticized for. Give us the two-sentence sale on the book. If you think you know everything about LeBron, read this book because you'll learn a whole lot that you didn't know.

And we should mention you've been covering him since he was like seven years old. Like seven and a half. Yeah, seven and a half, something like that. All right, Windhorse, this was great. I'm glad we did this. Thank you. Thank you, Bill. Take care.

Thanks to ZipCrew. Don't forget to go to zipcrew.com. Don't forget about the rewatchables. We did a brand new episode, Gone Girl. Me, Mallory, Shay, and Fantasy. You can listen to that. Thanks to SimpliSafe. When a home security system

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more wrong and get hurt in a crash. People get hurt or killed. You get arrested. You can incur huge legal expenses, lose your job, lose your license, all kinds of things. Next time you plan on drinking, make sure you plan ahead. Designate a sober driver or use a ride service to get home safely. Drive sober or get pulled over. Back with one more BS podcast later in the week. Matthew Barry coming on. We're doing fantasy and we're going to also talk about this 90210 reunion show, which is really the real reason

we're doing this. And there's going to be a lot of fantasy. But until then. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside I'm a bruised son of a

I don't have a few years