The Bill Simmons Podcast - The 100 Best TV Episodes of the Century, With Juliet Litman | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 396)

Episode Date: August 3, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Juliet Litman for a tension-filled podcast as they review The Ringer's 100 Best TV Episodes of the Century. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on The Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, ZipRecruiter. There's a difference between working hard and working smart. We do both at The Ringer, but not everyone does. ZipRecruiter's technology and tools make hiring more efficient and effective. The smartest way to hire. Their powerful technology scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience for your job. Tech doesn't stop there. Even learns what kind of candidates you like

and invites more to apply. It's so effective. 80% of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. My listeners can try it for free. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Meanwhile, SeatGeek,

the best app for buying and selling tickets to sporting events, concerts, and more. For $20 off your first SeatGeek purchase on any game or sporting event for baseball. What else is going on right now? MOS? Concerts? It's kind of quiet in August, but football's coming.

You got that coming, college football. You know what to do. Use promo code BS. LAFC tickets, super easy on SeatGeek, by the way. Download the SeatGeek app or go right to SeatGeek.com, and we're brought to you by TheRinger.com. We're wrapping up the 100 best TV episodes of the 21st century. We're going to talk to Juliette Lippman about that in a second.

Whole bunch of good stuff on TheRinger.com, though. What else is on The Ringer, Juliet? NFL preview has begun. There's some good football pieces coming out from Danny Kelly, Robert Mays, Kevin Clark, and Roger Sherman. Pretty exciting. The best thing we have on the site week to week

is the Jay Cutler diaries. It's like just the perfect marriage of the internet and somebody on reality TV. I've never been happier. Maybe Jersey Shore eight years ago is the last time I've enjoyed reality more. Jay Cutler is a true revelation. He was always bound for reality TV and he found his rightful home. I guess he was on reality TV for a while there just as a football player, but now it's actually reality TV. So yeah, check that out. theringer.com. Ringer Podcast Network is popping this week as well. Our football feed is starting to heat up.

Don't forget to go to the Ringer NFL show. And also we did a rewatchable. It's about Die Hard, 30th anniversary, including the controversial question, is Home Alone a Christmas movie? We'll get Juliet's answer. And we're going to argue about the 100 best TV episodes. But first, Pearl Jam.

All right, Juliette Lipman is here. Hi. What's your title now at the ring? You just keep getting promoted. Head of Production. Head of Production. Sounds so professional. It does sound professional.

I like it. Thank you very much for giving it to me. Host of Bachelor Party. Yes. Host of Jam Session on the Channel 33. Every other Wednesday. Is that it? Food News.

Food News. Food News on the House of Carbs. House of Carbs. Wow, we're really exploiting left and right. I apologize. In Sources Day, in the NBA season. Oh, yeah. That'll be every other Friday. Is Home Alone a Christmas movie?

100%. He goes to church. It's a really important part of the movie when he goes to church for mass. I feel like that movie could come out at any point of the year, which was my same argument with Die Hard. Die Hard came out in July. I don't feel like it movie could come out at any point of the year, which was my same argument with Die Hard. Die Hard came out in July. I don't feel like it's a Christmas movie. To me, a Christmas movie is like it had to come out around Christmas. Christmas is the main reason it succeeded.

Home Alone is a kid's movie that happened during the holidays. Kyle, what do you think? You've probably seen Home Alone. Definitely a Christmas movie. So you feel like, oh, Christmas is coming up. I'm going to watch Home Alone to get in the holiday spirit? Yeah. It's a winter movie. What am I missing? I feel like it's a kid Christmas movie. So you feel like, oh, Christmas is coming up. I'm going to watch Home Alone to get in the holiday spirit. Yeah. It's a winter movie.

What am I missing? I feel like it's a kid's movie. Doesn't Donald Trump tell him Merry Christmas when he sees him? That's in Home Alone 2, I think, because that's in New York. It's a kid's movie, and it's really a movie about torturing adults. Yes. And then maybe it's a holiday movie, a distant third. Daniel Stern is like the best second banana loser ever in that movie.

He is really good. I think it's a Christmas movie because there's also so much snow. It's weird to watch that movie in summer. It's a winter feel. I might be wrong. I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't think it's a Christmas movie. Well, I think like Die Hard, it's iconic. It's like just a transcendent movie that those actors,

even though they're all really famous in other parts, they kind of like are in a vacuum at home alone. They're stuck in time. Like that's not Macaulay Culkin. That's just the kid from Home Alone. That's Kevin, you know? Yeah. Well, now he's Kieran Culkin's brother. That's how I think. Right. Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. People can fuck off on that one. That's an action movie. It's a summer action movie that happened to take place on Christmas Eve. I agree on Die Hard. Yeah. Come on. We're not going to agree for the rest of this podcast because we're going to talk about the 100 best TV episodes of the 21st century. So we had a couple of wrinkles with this. You were in charge of this project.

Yes. There were a couple of days where you came into work and you just looked like you hadn't slept and you were upset about a CMS went sideways. Yeah. You were just very stressed out the entire time. But we had a couple of wrinkles. One was 21st century only. Yes, year 2000. One was only one episode per show.

Yes. Which I thought was both brilliant and I hated it because it forced us to basically pick 100 TV shows while we're also picking 100 episodes. But I also thought the peak shows got shortchanged. I see the case for that. But so to me, The Sopranos has the most number of like entrance that you could be like, this episode should have been on, this episode should have been on.

Because it's just consistently the most provocative, best show, it was doing something new. there was no blueprint for it at all but if you allow the sopranos breaking bad mad men curb thrones basically those are it right to have like more than one that's a big percentage of the list i thought seven shows should have been exempted and been allowed to have two what i forgot forget. Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Sopranos, Thrones, Curb. And I don't even watch this show, but our entire staff does. The Office. Yeah, The Office.

Apparently I have to watch The Office. It's really good. It's my biggest hole in my TV slash movies game right now. It is a great show. Steve Carell, I think, is underrated. He is so funny. I think he's properly rated. You haven't watched The Office. No, but who's like, oh, I'm not sure if Steve think he's properly rated he's you haven't watched the

office no but who's like oh i'm not sure if steve carell's good everybody's in it everyone's like yeah he's good but he's no one's like he's a genius and i think he might be a comedic genius his comedic timing is so good he also did like some weird physical stuff for that show like he messed with his hairline like he pulled the vincent kartheiser like he gets all the credit for like going weird to be p Campbell on Mad Men. But Steve Carell made some sacrifices as well. So I realized as we did this list, obviously I'm the oldest person at The Ringer and our staff skews young. Yes.

The Office is kind of the show for the generation of, if you said like our 31 and under generation. It seems like that's the show. I think The Office is to like the 31 and unders, what like HGTV was to me, which is on Netflix. So you're just hanging out at home and you're like, oh, I'll just turn on the office.

And they're so quick. They're 20 minutes each. So you just make your way through. You can watch them a bunch of times. And so it's really funny. It plays really well in dorm rooms, I think. So also people who are like, you know, in the 20 to 25 range

have been watching it for years. Do you think it's like Seinfeld for the under 31? I sound like I'm a million years old right now, but nephew, it absolutely is. How many apps have you seen every, I mean, yeah,

I started watching it in 2005 though. Right. Yeah. So you're basically had the office. Yes. Yeah. So I got to, I basically have to watch these.

Maybe this could be a season, a recapable season. That's a great idea. Watching the office from episode one on. It's the most popular internet show right now. Friends had it for a moment, but they passed the torch to the office. I never had. I never had probably like around 10 years ago.

I just stopped watching half hours. Me too. Except for the like. The ones you have to watch. Louie and Curb and ones like that. Yeah, girls. The HBO half hour it feels like a different

kind of half hour yeah cause it's it's really 25 to 27 yeah I'm gonna watch it alright so my biggest gripe

was not doing two episodes okay because I really felt like those seven should have been almost like we should have vaulted them to another level where they were above all the other TV shows. I think you have to take them out at that point, though, because like you could have 10 Sopranos episodes.

You could have five Mad Men's. You could have five from the wire. Like there's like four incredible Game of Thrones episodes like we'll always talk about. Yeah, but we at least two like. So let's go through it. Breaking Bad. We picked Ozymandias. Yes.

Which arguably and probably should have been the number one episode on this entire list and was the one we took the most shit for. Right. Yeah. For being too low. Yeah. It was number 10, I believe. One of the problems was you made Ozymandias number 10 and the OC pilot was number nine.

I will defend it. I will defend that. Hold that thought. The Fly is the other breaking bad episode probably could have done that bottle episode where they're it's just walt and jesse and they're in the um underground lab and there's a fly and they have to get it out to keep making the meth that's like the defining like bottle episode and prestige prestige tv we probably could have done that one that's like the the foofy Andy Greenwald type episode. Shout out to Andy.

I think the other one I would have I would have what about when Jonathan Banks dies? Yeah, that's a good one. That one really affected me. That was upsetting. I wonder about when Jane dies

when Walt inadvertently Jane and Jane and Jesse have just done meth and she's on her side and he accidentally knocks her over onto her back

so then she starts choking and she dies and Jesse never finds out that Walt is basically responsible for her death and that sends him on a spiral. I think that episode, that's to me the Walt

That's not one I'd watch 10 times though. I wouldn't watch any Breaking Bad episode 10 times. The Jonathan Banks episode is good TV and I, see,

I gotta go back and rewatch these but the one when, when it all came down with Giancarlo Esposito, I remember being really big. Yes, that was really good too. And then,

with the bell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding, ding. And then, he's the best actor on that bell. Ding, ding, ding, ding. He's the best actor on that show. So that's the problem with a list like this. Gus isn't even on the list. And that's one of the most iconic 21st century characters we had.

So The Wire. We actually picked the right episode. I was proud of you. I thought it should have been in the top five. But I mean, Stringer, Stringer and Avon, not only was that episode phenomenal and unbelievable when they fought,

we picked season three, episode 11, but it became this pop cultural moment, moment slash reference point that we would compare their things to. I did it with Westbrook and Durant for like four years. Sure. And people got pissed off the whole time. And then guess what happened?

Durant left and he went to Golden State and it became like Stringer and Avon. But I think just like that should get bonus points for the fact that like, nobody's like, oh, that's like, we picked the constant number one, which I'm going to get to in a second. That doesn't come up in my life ever. It's like, oh, that's like Desmond. Stringer and Avon is an iconic Biggie and Tupac type of rivalry. And I

thought that should have gotten more points. Okay. But are we talking about like overarching arcs of like what made a show great or a specific episode? Because that is why the list is constructed this way. It's because it's about you take this one episode, you sit down for 42 minutes, for 28 minutes, for 30 minutes. And do you need a lot more context? You're like, wow, this is like a miraculous like installment of a show because that's what we were going for. It's not just about the best shows, but about like a really solid hour of television and the context from which it came. I mean, Stringer and Avon, it's. Well, we picked the right episode. Only like one of the biggest moments of my life.

I think another thing that really plays into this is rewatchability. And Breaking Bad and The Wire, you love. Many people love. But they're not rewatchable. Oh, wow. Oh, my. Kyle. They're not.

Kyle. I'm on my third Breaking Bad. Definitely been to The Wire twice. I watched the second season every time. But how many times are you going to watch? You're the same person who's watched every Dawson Creek episode like seven times. Way more than that. But I'm just, they're

bleak shows and I think that it's a little bit harder. You can acknowledge the greatness and the art. The Wire's the most important TV show of all time. But it's bleak. It's sad. It's like hard to sit through. When it comes on HBO 2 and they run a marathon, I'm in. I guess that's also a big difference here is like people don't wait for marathons.

They're like, what can I check out on screen on streaming? Which episode do I have to choose? That's a big part of it. Like TV used to be an active inertia. And now you have to be actively engaged because you have to make a choice. You're like, I'm seeking out this episode right now. There's too much content. It's paralyzing.

Yeah, that's one. Well, I hope people use this list. That's why when the marathons are on, I'm still a cable satellite guy because I'm old. Me too. And I like to flick channels and settle on a channel and get excited and dive into whatever. And when The Wire has the marathon on,

if they're doing like midway through season three, I'm like, oh, my whole day is ruined. My number two choice for The Wire, I thought we had the right choice the number two choice would have been the last episode of season four which I think is one of the best episodes of TV

I've ever seen in my life I mean The Wire is unimpeachable because I think season four of The Wire was I thought the best Wire season the last episode when it all wraps up together and I forget which kid

is just his life screwed one kid made it one kid is now and I forget which kid is just his life screwed one kid made it one kid is now gone full hood and sure it was just uh can I ask you a question one of the one of the like we did blurbs for all of these so there would be questions like what's the most iconic line or how did this tv show influence the rest of television like sort of bigger questions about like what to get it why we're selecting. Like, what would you say for the wire is the impact it had on TV going forward? Cause I think that actually isn't discussed that much. Like people are like the wire,

the best show. I don't necessarily disagree, but I think it's like a little bit harder to trace its tentacles in the way that some of the other shows we selected. I thought it was, it was a slow bake. It was one of, it was right there in the air of the critics telling us you need to watch this show and us figure out who to trust and not trust.

We didn't have Twitter yet. It was when shows could still kind of move along without you even knowing unless you were watching it. Yeah. And it was in the shadow of the Sopranos. And the problem was they had done a show called The Corner right before. Right. Which was really grim.

I actually, it was too grim for me. I watched it, but I didn't love it. And I think it was in the shadow of that too. And then the second season of it, which some people have now come around and thought was actually a great season. Right. But I think that turned some people off too. And then you have this run of three, four, five now take shit for being not great.

But I stand by the series finale. There's a lot of, that's like a good point. Like on the list, there's not that many like middle season or late season episodes just because I think like the best shows, it's hard to sustain them after a certain number of seasons. And that's like one of the reasons why TV has gotten better is because they don't have to do that.

I thought the last episode of season four and the Stringer-Yvonne we picked were probably the best two. But the one when Omar jumps, we were just talking about iconic moments from the century. That one was a big one. Chris wrote about that. Moments versus episodes. And like Breaking Bad is like a top of the moment show. Yeah, that could have been its own subcategory. Totally.

Mad Men, we picked the right one. Yeah, the suitcase is really fucking good. Suitcase is great. I thought the last episode of season one was really great.

Yeah. And that was kind of when the show came together and it had the wheel and Jon Hamm's best acting moment ever and the whole thing was fantastic.

We chose between, we're choosing between a few episodes. It kind of was like, if you're going to go the suitcase route of celebrating Mad Men, it comes down to the suitcase versus the wheel, which is those two episodes. And the suitcase is probably

a better start to finish show. Yeah. And I think Amanda wrote an awesome blurb about this for the list itself. You can check it out. And I think it really gets at like, it's a small microcosm that gets like bigger questions that propels like not just the show, but like humans it's it's really really good i think the

other like contenders from that were far away places when don goes to california yeah um i love the end of i think it's season three when roger and don have made up and they're going on recruiting everyone it's called sit down close the door that's an amazing one. I mean, Mad Men is so good. The episodes are just fantastic. Sopranos. I agree that it probably had the most one-off awesome episodes. Which one did we pick? We chose Pine Barrens, which is when Christopher and Polly are in the woods looking for the Russian guy. Which was the episode when, yeah, I mean, that was the all-time

what-the-fuck hour of television of all time. It was amazing. We kept waiting for him to come back. He never came back. Yeah. The other two I would have pushed for, the college episode, which I think was the fourth or fifth of season one. Yes, that was really good.

That was when the show came together, where it was like, didn't really know what it was totally. And then that one was just so riveting. And then the, what was the episode when they're in the, like the, the boathouse yelling at each other? Yeah. Whitecaps is really good.

Yeah. And he gets his boat really, really intense 15 minutes where it felt like my parents were arguing. Like I was shaken after. It's the thing about James Gandolfini. That is like miraculous about Tony Soprano is how he uses his physicality in like different ways and he becomes really like imposing sometimes that's what he was with Carmela like to say the least and other times like he's so

like gross like his physicality that show is amazing and I think that stands out in a lot of the best episodes college was awesome because that's when you're like oh this is a show about like the suburbs and like the things that because that's when you're like, oh, this is a show about like the suburbs and like the things that are happening like below the layer, like beneath the surface. And like family crossed with him trying to commit a murder.

I think that might've been pre-2000. Was that 1999, season one? Oh, it might've been. Yeah, so I think that's why- Is that why we left it off? Yeah. Because I think that we could have made a case, but- I agree with what you say about his physicality

and not to make this podcast a downer, but the way he used his body and that you thought he might attack somebody at any time, male or female. It was a little like Trump in that one Clinton debate. Definitely. When he was kind of following her around and just seemed bigger than her and menacing,

which was really Tony Soprano. So congratulations to our president for reminding me of Tony Soprano. Game of Thrones, the fight episode in, I'm sorry, the big battle. The Blackwater Bay fight. Blackwater. Yeah. Was a revolutionary episode of television. It was not represented on this list because we picked the Red Wed wedding, which we should have because I was still the most stunned, shocked.

I didn't read the books. And that was one of those like, what the fuck just happened? Yeah. I need to talk about this with somebody. But the battle scene was was the craziest, most expensive thing I've ever seen on a television show and deserved to be represented. Yeah, it set the tone. I think the Reigns of I think Reigns of Castamere makes sense because it was so was so shocking it's also the right pick it's like it's like the cultural touch point of the

show so i think that that's why but uh yeah i mean the battle scenes are also amazing i think you can make a case for hardhome which is the one where we first see the knight's king really in all of his power and like john snow's like rowing away in the boat and he's like oh that boat could just basically like get knocked out by this guy right now if he wanted to. But yeah, I mean like Reigns of Castamere is just iconic and it has also like a song. I don't know.

You can't, it's not impeachable. The Office, I have no opinion on because I didn't watch it. Curb. Now, this is a sub.

Actually, let's take a break. We'll come back. Hey, you've heard us talk about fantasy sites in the past, but we finally got around to try and fan duel. We're shocked by how different it is.

FanDuel means it when they say they have more ways to win. If you're not a fantasy expert, FanDuel is the best place to play. They have all kinds of contests just for casual fans, like beat the score contests, which are great because they pay out everyone who hits a certain score. So all you have to do is finish in the money to split an equal share of the cash. FanDuel also has new options for playing with your friends

because the only thing better than winning cash is winning your friend's cash. Best of all, FanDuel doing their part to make the preseason bearable with preseason fantasy contests running up to week one of the NFL. Right now, you can get a $10 bonus when you make your first deposit on FanDuel.

Just sign up at fanduel.com slash BS. Age and state restrictions apply. So Curb. I almost feel like emailing Larry David and apologizing. This was the biggest travesty of this list. It was representative of we have too many young people involved. Okay. And I wish I'd come in as the old guy. I stayed away and it's my fault. You sent me the list a couple of times. I never waited in. Curb ended up being not only 69th out of a hundred, which is like, I don't even know what to say. It's like if we were making a greatest

NBA players list ever. And Tim Duncan was like 69th. It's exactly what it's like. Yes, I agree. It really is exactly what it's like. And then we picked the wrong episode. We picked one that wasn't even in the top seven. It was an outrage. This happened on your watch. Well, here's the thing about Curb. I love Curb. Really funny. Great show. It's just not essential. It doesn't feel essential in the same way in the way that the other ones do. I'm sorry. It just doesn't. Because what do you recommend first? Seinfeld or Curb? You had Dawson's Creek higher than it.

I consider it essential. This is the problem with the list. So many people consider it essential. Here's Juliet's list that I'm going to try to make everyone else happy. That's not true. This is your list and you have certain types for TV shows.

I love Curb. You love ER. You love Dawson's Creek. You love the OC. You love Grey's Anatomy. You have Grey's Anatomy. Hire the Cur you love Grey's Anatomy you have Grey's Anatomy hire the Curb Grey's Anatomy

is a seminal television show of the 21st century I will not back down it's just too bad Curb never got there the greatest half hour comedy probably of all time there's episodes of Curb

you're like he's phoning it in you're just like yeah they didn't feel like doing this episode oh my god this recent season there was a lot of like

eh okay if we have to Crazy Eyes Killer I always judge this stuff Joe House and I talked about it when we did the pod on Monday This recent season, there was a lot of like, eh, okay, if we have to. Crazy Eyes Killer. I always judge this stuff. Joe House and I talked about it when we did the pod on Monday. If I had to call Joe House at the end of the episode,

and Curb had by far the most of any TV show from last decade, but the Crazy Eyes Killer was the greatest half hour. I was so happy. I was just delighted. That would have been my choice, but I also backup choice the end of season two, the restaurant. Oh yeah.

That's a good one. The restaurant start to finish how it wraps up the season. The Tourette's chef who swears, everyone in the restaurant swears. Then Susie saying the car wash C word to, fuck you, your car wash bank. Susie's the best. Which is the biggest and the most important line word to fuck you, you car wash bank. Susie's the best. She's the biggest and the most important line ever said on that show.

That would have been on there for me. I think the Dodger stadium, when he takes the hooker to stay in the carpool lane and then crazy ass killer. Oh, and a bam, bam. That's a good one.

Bam, bam, bam, bam. Jeff Garland having sex with Funk Howard, Houser's crazy sister. That would be my top four. All of those I would have put ahead.

What was the one we picked? We picked, shoot, let me check right now. Yeah, because you don't like the show. You can't even remember what you picked. I do like the show. It's terrible. One thing about it though, and this is true for all the comedies,

I think that they have been, those are the hardest to stand up over the test of time because a lot of the time the humor is topical or it's offensive and the lines of what is is and is not allowed has shifted so much. And I think that has affected the way people think about some of these shows

and the comedies in general. We chose The Freak Book, which is the one where he gets... It was like the ninth best curve. From season six. It's fine. Did you like the comedies in general we chose the freak book which is the one where it was like the ninth best curb from season six it's fine did you like the producer's season not especially i i love musicals so i liked that one the blacks the blacks was a great season and i remember did a mailbag i'm gonna say oh wait whatever there was one comeback season and i compare and i did cur's pitching stats for a season. It was a pitcher.

And just going through and how many great episodes there were. And his stats were basically like Pedro Martinez in the late 90s. So apologies to Larry David. I do think Larry David himself is underrated in general, like in culture. It's fine. Our millennials picked the best TV episodes of the 21st century, like in culture. It's fine. Our millennials picked the best TV episodes of the 21st century. It was great. It's our century, man.

No real world. No real world. I have regrets about this. You had a hundred television shows on this list. You picked reality shows that nobody will ever have a conversation about again in their life. That's completely not true. That is not true. You just don't watch Vanderpump Rules. It was a recency bias. You're missing out.

It was a recency bias list. The Real World is the most iconic reality show of all time and we did not put it on the list. True. However, the most iconic seasons were all before the year 2000. Counterpoint,

Real World New Orleans 2000, which was a year that we just, I guess we were pretending wasn't in the 21st century. What are you talking about? We have Survivor on there. Oh, so we did recognize the 21st century. What are you talking about? We have Survivor on there. Oh, so we did recognize the 21st century. That's the most important show of the year 2000.

Real World New Orleans had David singing the Ski Doppel B song, who was talking about his music career. And this was during one of the last years before anyone on TV was at least a little self-aware. He was not. And he was like, you know, my music means so much to me. And then plays Come On, Be My Baby. Come On, Be My Baby.

Yeah. Okay. But what else happened to that episode? I know the other people you've been with. It's so bad. It was one of the funniest things that's ever happened on television. And then was immortalized by Dave Chappelle a few years later. He had the guy come on and play Come On, Be My Baby Tonight in front of his whole audience. Amazing.

However, tell me what else happened on that episode. That's it. That's a moment. That's not a full episode. The Come On Be My Baby Tonight episode. That's a moment. It's not a full episode. That's the point. The Real World Vegas threesome. That was good. I regret that a little bit. I think if we were going to do a Real World episode, it would have been Trishel's

Pregnancy Square. Yeah. Because that was a full episode. That's what i'm talking about like a lot of these are moments where you're like episode where you're like okay we should have like accounted for that but you can't if you can't remember anything else that happened in it or the lead up to it you can't remember because it was like 18 years ago that's why the recency bias you can remember vanderpump rules because it was a year ago i just want to say that would not have been my choice of vanderpump of vanderp episodes. But also, I've been begging you to watch Vanderpump Rules for years. And if you did, you would agree. It's really incredible television. And the thing that's

amazing about it is these people have now been on the show for five years. Their lives have barely changed. Of course, they still live in West Hollywood. They still live in like they like they ride around on these cooler scooters like it's insane. It's a great show. Please watch it. Trishel's pregnancy scare was scary for two reasons. One, she was scared she was pregnant. Two, every viewer was scared that Trishel was going to bring another human being into the world.

I was personally frightened. Please don't have a child. And it was with that dude, Steven. Steven, who was awful. I will say that is, you know, the turning point of the real world. So I regret that a little bit, but I just don't know.

We also got the challenge wrong. Which challenge episode did we pick? Oh, Disagree. We chose When Johnny Screws Over Sarah by Taking the Money. See, that's another recency bias one. Great episode. Totally remember it.

But going back to the mid-2000s. Take me there I can't remember her name because I'm old describe the situation she she was a female she was not a very good competitor

okay and they kept throwing her in the challenge and picking her uh huh I want to say her name was like Sarah it might have been another Sarah

probably okay they kept throwing her in was it Julie from Real World New Orleans? No, it wasn't Julie. So if I can't remember her name, maybe I shouldn't have been on there. But she got thrown in like seven straight times and she kept winning. And it was actually like a sports movie.

It was inspiring. And I wrote about it. It's like Cam right now. It was the first time I ever really started writing about the challenge of my column because and it was also that era where the challenge was kind of becoming the challenge. But since I can't remember her name. It can't count. I think the challenge era that I

wish we had accounted for a little bit more, but again, I think it's hard to pick a full episode is the Coral years and also the Tina years. Like those were two titans of the challenge that deserve to be recognized. Real World New York also had The Miz on it, who then was joking the whole time about

becoming a wrestling character in The Miz, then became The Miz on the WWE and won the title and now is one of the biggest stars they have. It's incredible. So watching that show retroactively would be bizarre. Also, the challenge season, the first Fresh Meat brought in Ev and Evan and Kenny and Evelyn

and that was like, that just changed the course of the whole franchise. That was incredible casting. So if we're giving out casting awards, I think the challenge might win. I'm ready to do a big picture challenge, a challenge kind of conversation. We would need Jacoby for it, but the, uh, maybe like trying to figure out the top 10 pantheon of the challenge. I would love to. I think the challenge is still good.

It's a renewable energy source. I think, I still feel like Flojo and Evelyn were the two greatest female athletes we've ever produced in America. Maybe Serena third. Evelyn was. Evelyn's not American. I don't think so.

She's not. She wasn't American. Maybe she was. Oh no. I'm thinking of the woman who got kicked off road rules for who they look like. Evelyn was such a great athlete that there was a stupid Internet thread started that she was actually a man. And it was like, she's definitely not a man.

She's the greatest female athlete we've ever produced. And how dare all of you do not do that. Speaking of reality TV. No Paradise Hotel. Yes. I stand by it. I think that was a ridiculous show, but was it like the best? Well, I mean, clearly not as much integrity as Vanderpump Rules.

You haven't seen it. You don't know. Vanderpump Rules is so good. First of all. And there's so much happening. I've seen Vanderpump Rules. How many? One?

I've seen a couple. 20 minutes? Paradise Hotel was phenomenal and created the reality gimmick of this could really never end if we don't want it to, which is basically Bachelor in Paradise now. Bachelor in Paradise stole Paradise Hotel. It's the exact same idea. It's just there's

a finish line. Paradise Hotel, at one point it was like, is this people were coming back who had been voted off? I was like, is this just going to go on perpetually for the rest of my life do you know about love island which happened this summer in england no it was season four love island it's like it's on every day it's basically like kyle's porn searches it's like it's like big brother meets are you the one basically it's on every day the daily mail has covered it breathlessly really it's i started watching it this week it's not good I started watching it this week.

It's not good, but it's a phenomenon that I just want to be a part of. The Daily Mail is one of your top five bookmarks. It's not even like- Top three? Probably number one. Joe Millionaire should have been on because I think it had like 32 million people

for the last episode. Yeah, it did. But that was a different era. That was a time when like reality shows could get that many viewers. Like, I don't know. I,

again, like that was a good conceit, but was there like a moment or even an episode where you're like, shit, remember when this happened? Like it was an important time for like the trajectory of reality. I remember Joe millionaire picking somebody in 32 million people watching it. And then it created this whole world of like instant marriages.

Okay, but like versus Survivor where Sue gave that crazy speech. Well, that was. Yeah, I'm just saying like that was in the top 10 because there was like a lot more substance. That was a major moment. Survivor was incredible. It still is good. Survivor could have five or six. Yes, I agree.

Yeah, the Mutiny episode is my personal favorite from 2006. The other, the other, there was one other reality that we missed. I'm trying to think. There was one other. Day Naked?

One of my favorite shows. No, during that Paradise Hotel, that whole era, there was one more in there. I think there was a lot of reality, MTV reality

that was like super important. I think that probably the episode of the newlywed show with Nick and Jessica when she like doesn't know what tuna is and she's like lot of reality MTV reality that was like super important. I think that probably the episode of the newlywed show with Nick and Jessica, when she like, doesn't know what tuna is. And she's like chicken of the sea. That's what it was.

That was an important show. And that had a lot of great episodes when he went golfing, like sort of like, you could have just called it like pre-divorce and everyone been like, yeah, I see this one coming. Cause this goes back to the recency bias thing that Nick and Jessica show show, for whatever reason, for about 15 months, was like the biggest thing on TV. And Jessica Simpson was like an A-plus list star for basically being a dumbass on television.

I also think, wasn't the Osbournes this century? Yes, it was. That was another one that had like a real moment, I felt like. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that those are, again, like are just sort of like forebears to a lot of what came next that then like was a lot more impactful. Like, I mean, those shows don't exist without Jersey Shore. That Jersey Shore is brought together by that and also the success of True Life. True Life is a great, great show. MTV had great programming

in the previous decade. They really did. It had a great run. We had Laguna Beach on there and we had the hills. And the Laguna Beach was the Cabo episode from season one. I get it. It had kind of the Steven, the slut-shaming thing, which even in 2005, before

we started patrolling this stuff a lot better, was awkward back then. It was like, dude, settle down, buddy. 17-year-old girlfriend of yours. Yeah, it wasn't great. I still, for me, my favorite episode was when they went out to dinner for Jason's birthday party and he was clearly going into the bathroom to blow lines.

Yeah. Was that the Hills, though? He kept going and they were trying to edit it. Was that the Hills or Laguna Beach? I think it might have been the Hills because that was when he was dating Lauren, right? And they were in LA. Oh, that might have been the Hills.

What did we pick from the Hills? From the Hills, we picked the end of the Heidi and Lauren fight where she's like, I want to forgive you and I want to forget you and move on. That was a good one. Another good one from the Hills is when Heidi lies to Spencer and says that she's pregnant to get his reaction.

How do you feel about nephew Kyle dating a girl who went to Heidi and Elsie's fashion school? Fit him? I'm okay with it, actually. It's pretty influential here in LA. I know. Yeah. In fact, I feel good about it. Kyle, are you single or are you dating? I'm dating Rosie Perez from White Men Can't Jump,

basically. I love those shows. I think we could have done even more of them. I mean, they are so important. I think we could have done even more of that. I mean, they are so important. It also gets back to like the Jay Cutler thing that is still happening right now with Kristen.

I think what staggered me about this list, the things that weren't on there. And then also how many episodes could have been on. It just made me think just how much great TV there's been. I think it used to be better and more fun, to be honest. Like there's just, there's just a lot to pick from. Yeah, there really was. I think it used to be better and more fun, to be honest. There's just a lot to pick from. Yeah, there really was. Because we didn't have Oz on this list and I got mad,

but then I went back and Oz was basically season two, season three were the seasons. Season four on, it fell apart. And season four was in 2000. So it was not represented. And Sex and the City had a similar problem. By the time we hit 2000 with that show, that show was not good anymore. We picked an episode, but that Sex and the City after season three was bad. Yeah. I think the late 90s had some really good television. I mean, ER would have been in this conversation

if we had included the late 90s. Well, unfortunately, we included an ER episode just because you love the show. No, it's really good. That show died after five seasons. It's really, I think it honestly died when Mark left. When Mark dies, the show should have ended. It was, that's an excellent hour of television.

It's really good. I, when it hit Hulu, I went home and I watched it right away. Like literally I was out and I was like, holy shit, ER is available. I went home. It was a Sunday. It was sunny.

I was like all, by all accounts should have been outside having a great day. And I watched that episode. I wept and I was like, this is remarkable. Like, this is a really incredible episode of TV that it's hard to find now. It's like it's working within the confines of commercial breaks. Yeah. It has tons of characters that could be including.

And it just is a really tidy package. Works out really nicely. I think it's a great show. Yeah. I've told this story before, but when I had my old website and I had to do the daily links every day, and it was during the era where you had to actually plug a phone cord

from the little thing in the wall into your computer and everything downloaded so low and I was trying to find stories and I'd have to wait like 30 seconds for the site to download. So I would have to have these TV shows. So I would just watch 90210 and I would watch ER, shows that I had already seen.

ER, those first four seasons, it was actually like, it had people that probably shouldn't have been on a television show. Oh, definitely. Patrick Dempsey was a little overqualified to be on Grey's Anatomy, but not really. No.

George Clooney should not have been on a television show. It's like that they were able to get three years out of him was incredible. Three, they got four and a half. He left in the middle of season five. He was mailing it in by the time he started making movies. Yeah, I mean, it's true.

I actually, one reason I'm glad we did this project is like the idea of the episode is kind of fading away because all the shows just drop, like people binge them. If you don't watch them week to week, one reason Succession has been so fun for the Ringer staff this summer is because it's happening week to week. And so it's-

Succession's a great example of why the binge watch model should not exist anymore. I agree. Like, it's just not as fun. You can't remember episode to episode. It all blurs together. Netflix, if you're listening, we would have given Stranger Things

like six weeks of nonstop content. Yeah. And it was over in 48 hours. Maybe that's a good model for whatever your metrics say, but I don't see how not being in the conversation succession, the way it built and now has become a thing. And now how many times do we write a week about it? Like three times a week? I think more.

We're doing podcasts about it. It's built toward old school, like an old school TV experience. And I still think that matters more than a binge watch. I do too. I also, as a viewer, and like I truly love television, I just find it so much more fun.

And also it's like, then it's like a group event. There's a conversation about around it. You can like take time. You can go down several different rabbit holes because your interest doesn't wane after like five days, basically. So like one week you can be really into Cous days basically so like one week you can be really into

Cousin Greg and the next week you can be really into Matthew McFadden and be like what the fuck he was on all these British prestige shows and now he's Tom that's so weird like it's just you don't get that experience. Does Nephew Kyle remind you of Cousin Greg because I think that's been the worst ringer staff take of 2018. In no way does he

remind me of Cousin Greg. He's so much more confident than Cousin Greg. Totally. That's like rude to Kyle. Who said that? I've never seen it, so I don't know. That's awful. That's the internet. I'm sorry, man. Fuck those co-workers. I don't accept that. The succession, the way it built. So, like, my daughter watches

these Netflix shows, like that show where the kid has cancer, Alexa and Somebody, which is actually a really good show. It's called like Katie and Alexa or something? Alexa and Katie. That makes sense to do a binge watch. Throw those, all those up. My daughter will watch all of them. It's not like you have Alan Sepinwall writing about episode four of Alexa and Katie, but when it's something like succession or stranger things, I think the build of the week to week is part of the fun. Even if they were going to do it so that it's two episodes of pop.

Totally. Something like that. I really hope they change that model. I think it's, I know it's bad for us. I know, I know we would have more fun with the shows. I know you make fun of me,

but the time, the time, the time old tale of like, well, there won't, that doesn't work anymore. Like, because there's no time for it to build.

There's also no time. I think for the show runners and the writers to be like, oh, these two have really great chemistry. Like maybe we'll change up what we're doing. Like it just has affected the type of stories that are told in some ways for the better. But like, I'm just a girl standing in front of a TV set asking it to give me a love story, you know?

When was the last time Will Bay or Will Day worked? It's been a while. The Office, which I don't watch, but wasn't that the Krasinski, Jenna Fisher? Yeah, but then they get together in season four, I think. And then it goes on for another four seasons. You know what the first Will They or Won't They was, right? What?

Cheers. Oh, yeah. Sam and Diane. That was basically the premise of the first three seasons. And you loved it, didn't you? It was so good. And I was more invested in their relationship than any relationship in my life. Yeah.

I was like 13, 14, 15. I was the only child. I didn't have an older brother dating somebody. My parents were already divorced. This was like, whether they should get together or not, I like put a lot of time and thought and energy into rooting against it because I didn't think they belonged together.

I also love Diane, which is so weird because the kind of person I became when I was an adult, I never would have had a crush on Diane in a million years, but when I was 13, I was like, oh man, he's really blowing this with Diane. She was awful. But yeah. That's definitely the case for

Dawson's Creek on there, I think. Made by me for that reason. Hold on, I want to I need to regroup so I can really attack the Dawson's Creek thing. But first let's take a break. I'm ready. Hey, let's talk about Gillette. If you've heard me on this podcast, I use Gillette.

I use Gillette for my face. I use their razors. I use their shaving cream. The last couple of months I've had a beard. Even still, I'm using Gillette when I I have to shave underneath the beard and the neck. I use the Gillette Fusion 5 for shaving cream because I have sensitive skin. I use the Gillette Fusion ProGlide with the big sensitive on it. So that happens.

But Gillette, it's been around forever. I went to see their facilities a few months ago, and you can kind of understand why they're the best. The amount of time and care, the factory, all the little precision and the little bells and whistles they put in. It was unbelievable to see. Whether you want three blades or five, the Gillette three and Gillette five razors. Have you covered all under $10 high performance at a low price? But here's some good news. Get Gillette performance delivered to your door and find Gillette five or any shaving gel you want, whatever you want. Go to Gillette on demand.com. Once again, Gilletteondemand.com. Subscribe today.

Dawson's Creek, which I think even you would admit as a giant Dawson's Creek fan, is a show specifically for women. 50% of the population. No men watch Dawson's Creek at all. No men. Zero. No, don't agree with men Zero No men at all Don't agree

Men did not watch Austin's Creek It was not a show Men for men Didn't watch like Oz Okay We didn't have Oz on the list There's plenty of man only shows

On this list I just want to say Where do we have Austin's Creek right 50 Yes That's about 38 spots Too high

That show's not good You know me I love. I love the, I love the, uh, the trashy teen soap opera shows. Even I couldn't watch that show. That show was so overwrought and so not geared for me that I couldn't watch it. I love love triangles. I'm here for all love triangles. Dylan, Brandon, and Kelly is the greatest love triangle of all time. That's true. I agree. But even I couldn't watch this show. So how does it not get penalized for the fact that it turns off 50% of the population?

Because it's still really important to another 50% of it. It also changed television. It had a huge impact on it. It introduced a new kind of dialogue. It didn't change anything. It was not a good show. That's not true. It was not good.

I completely disagree. You just liked it because you were a kid when you watched it and people love things when they're kids and they're attached to them. Well, I still watch it as an adult. I know because you're attached to it. It launched five careers. It gave us one of the best gifts of television. What careers? What did

Vanderbilt do? He was in Versity Blues. What career did he have? He's crying Dawson. Michelle Williams is one of the most successful actresses. She would have had a great career anyway. Are you sure? Oh, yeah. She would have had a great career anyway. Are you sure? Oh, yeah. She's a really good actress. Okay.

I think that she would. Katie Holmes. I'm not sure that she's as good as people think. I just want to say that. But that's fine. Are we sure she's good about Michelle Williams? Yes. I'm willing to go there.

I'm willing to go there. Joshua Jackson was incredible. I love that guy. Yeah. Of course. We love Cole. But by the way, in the affair, he's playing Pacey. Pacey is.

He's grown up. Pacey lives in the Hamptons and has a crazy ex-wife. Yeah, that was a defining role for him. And he never got past it. Now, Dawson's Creek is not a good show. I disagree. It's just not. It's not a good show. Well, even if that's true, that episode is really well done.

What was the episode? It's Stuck the Landing. It's the finale of season three. It's been 22 episodes leading up to that of Joey and Pacey. Will they get together? How's Dawson going to take it? It all finally comes to a head. 22 episodes. That's why the show is terrible. It was basically, it was a morning soap opera. It was general hospital with like better cameras. Disagree. Way better writing. And also it just, it did something that is hard to do on television, which is it tied together every storyline of that season

in 42 minutes and it all worked out. It was really well done. It was well executed. And that's what a lot of this list is about is episodes that were really well executed.

It's like being a gymnast. You can win gold every four years. Dawson's Creek had a chance to win gold and it did. Dawson's Creek really made history for creating two male characters that no other men would have ever hung out with. At no point in my life would have been like, hey, Dawson, what are you up to tonight? If you want me to write like a college- Would Nephew Kyle have ever hung out with Dawson or Pacey? No. I mean, you know that I wouldn't have either, but that doesn't matter. It was TV.

That was my problem with that show was you had male characters who didn't resemble any man I'd ever met in my life. This is your problem with Friends, though, as well. And Friends is hugely popular. Are you going to say that's a bad show? No. Season one of Friends was fantastic. Similarly, Dawson's Creek season one was fantastic. My issue

with Friends was they just needed one person in the writer's room who could have made the Chandler-Joey relationship seem a little more like what it was like when guys were friends. They had it in season one, and then I think Bill Lawrence left the writer's room to do, what did he do, Scrubs?

Yeah, Scrubs. Spin City or one of those? Both of those. And then what they did to Chandler over the course of the 10 episodes was really egregious. I don't like when shows decide in season two or season three to make one character totally dumb.

And that's what happened with Joey. Like he didn't start out really dumb. He started out like, um, as like the hot guy actor who was really arrogant. And then he became special needs. And then it became special. Yeah. Um, what they did to Chandler, I've read about chemical crustacean. I don't know anything about it, but that's what they did to that character over the last four seasons. From the moment he started getting

involved with Monica, it was like, well, I'm going to cease to be any sort of anything anymore. I'm just, I'm just a mannequin that Monica is going to move around in a different scene. Yeah. Um, I will say with friends, it had like this three episode resurgence when Joey developed feelings for Rachel. Yes. That I thought was really strong and arguably could have been on the list somewhere. However. I just don't remember enough about it because it was so long ago. When she developed them back, I was like, fuck no.

Right. I was like, no, it's not what's going to happen. That would be like a one night stand and they're both like, oh, no, sorry. The other problem with that show was at some point between season five and season eight, Lisa Kudrow started to look like she was 15 to 20 years older than everybody else in the show. And they were all supposed to age. It was like what happened with Gabriel Carteris at 90210. Yeah, of course.

It was like, yeah, we're all in high school together. And all of a sudden she's like 35. Pregnant. It's like she doesn't really look like she's Brian Austin. Green's age. One, one through line of TV in last decade that I wish we celebrated more was how many weird roles Paul Rudd had.

He just like popped up on different TV shows. He was so available. So available. He was on years and years and years. I'm like, here are 90 show sisters. Yeah. Uh,

speaking of teen dramas, the OC, which, uh, I ride for OC, like to the point that I forced my daughter to watch Seven and took her phone so she

could really concentrate on it. We picked the pilot, which I agree was a fantastic pilot. Yes. Fantastic. I think Casino Night, the third episode was a better start to finish show and had the best moment in OC history. Which is what?

When the mom decides to leave. The first three episodes lead to the moment where the mom ruins Casino Night. Yeah. And then with the classic rich person, something goes wrong, an event thing where somebody crashes into a waiter, which is the over and over again, the go-to move. It's not bad enough for somebody to be sloppy drunk, but you actually have to knock over a waiter and plates. It has to be like noisy. It has to be super noisy.

And everybody's got to stop what they're doing and like kind of, I shame them. But the next morning wakes up and says to Seth's mom. Yes. Kirsten Cohen. Basically like I have to get out of here. This is the best thing I'm ever going to do for him. You're his mom now.

Gives him like the pep talk. You're the captain now. And it's emotional. And to that point, the mom hadn't really wanted to adopt Ryan because, well, here are some reasons. He was a carjacker. He was 16. He burned down the model house.

The first night he hung out with their son They got in a fist fight And so you know she had some reservations There were some reasons And she starts realizing like I gotta give this kid a home And as this is going on Ryan wakes up and comes out

And sees the mom and realizes she's leaving And just kind of does this sad little Half wave It's emotional i get choked up i'm a cyborg it's really hard for me to get emotional to a tv show it's like an emotional two minutes there it's a good one i think the pilot is like i would say better it's great the pilot i would say is like a better pilot than lost like i really feel that way i think so well it had some major people behind it yeah it had uh doug lyman directed it

like mcg was it g was involved coming off his charlie's angels hi that good mcg was something it also had like the amazing soundtrack it was like whoa this is different i would say the oc maybe this is true for teen shows in general actually would be a better binge show than week to week because i think that stretch from episodes my daughter plowed through him and i loved it and i was like I would wait week to week. I was so deep into message boards then. I was just beyond obsessed that it's hard for me

to explain it to you. And I'm like a passionate, obsessive person. And I think that show, episodes one through- You and Biggs. Yeah. Episodes one through seven

of season one are just like- They're unassailable. Unassailable. Best seven episode run of a show maybe? Like, I don't know. It's up there. And I think watching it once

would be cool I wrote about it I was writing for page two at the time somebody mailed me the pilot before it came on and it was somebody

who was a TV executive who just liked my column and he's like I gotta send you something I think you're gonna go nuts for the show because people knew I liked 90210

and I watched the pilot with my wife and we were just like oh like we were just floored it's on yeah I was like oh my wife and we were just like, oh, we were just floored. It's on. Yeah. I was like, oh my God.

And the first seven, the problem though, it was the old school model of just let's milk 22 episodes out of season one. And by like episode 13, Luke, the bad guy who had the famous, welcome to the OC, bitch. Yeah. In episode one one which is another iconic moment from that show by episode 13 they didn't know what to do with him like his dad was gay

in episode 12 his dad comes out and that's weird all of a sudden he's buddies with Ryan and it was such a waste of a great villain and then the Seth and Summer should they or should they they should have played the long game with all the stuff

that crammed four seasons into one. I will say another great episode was Marissa, later on, it was the last great OC episode, Marissa shooting Ryan's brother.

Oh, yeah. Then parodied. Yeah, on SNL in the best way possible. The OC, shout out to that. I would have Casino Night a slight edge. I would say the other thing with the OC that's interesting

is it kind of got screwed because it was when Fox was starting to, it was the very first time Fox experimented with year-round programming. It debuted in August and then took like many months off and then came back and they were so excited about the momentum they ordered extra episodes. So season one I think was like 27 episodes, which is just not fair.

What a run for me personally because the OC was on Fox as the Red Sox were on Fox. Congrats, Bill. Winning the, going through the playoffs, winning the World Series. They're running OC promos. Really like my favorite time for promos right around there. Let's take one more break. Let's talk about Starbucks Double Shot. I'm going to need one after the intensity of this podcast.

Starbucks Double Shot starts with bold Starbucks coffee. It's blended with milk for a smooth, creamy, delicious flavor. It's enhanced with ginseng, guarana, and B vitamins. It's available in six delicious flavors, mocha, vanilla, hazelnut, white chocolate, coffee, and Mexican mocha. It's an energy coffee drink that not only tastes great, but gives you the energy to go from point A to point done. And look, everybody has their little caffeine fix. I have my morning coffee, which I actually, I use the Starbucks Reserve.

Starbucks makes this reserve coffee that I think is really good. Make that at home. And then right around 3 o'clock, 3.30, 4 o'clock, especially when you get older, you start fading a little bit and you need a little caffeine bump. That's usually when I go for some sort of latte for the espresso shot. These Starbucks double shots, though, kind of life-altering. Throw them in the fridge.

It's energy to do things you actually do. And here's how easy it is. Just find it in your local convenience store. Check it out. Starbucks double shot. All right. A couple of quick ones to run through. I didn't think this was going to be the whole podcast,

but I'm having a good time. So 24, we ranked 93rd. Yeah. The famous Nina turned out to be double agent episode. Yeah. This is a great example of recency bias. And me, I wish when you had sent me the list those three times, I wish I had waited in.

24 was an absolute phenomenon. I didn't really watch it. I've seen it. This is your take for it. What it comes down to is you have a type for a show. And if the show doesn't fit your type, it suffers in the list. I just want to say I wasn't the only one who made this list. I don't even want to

take all the credit. You're the gatekeeper because Dawson's Creek was like eighth. At one point we had two episodes of Grey's Anatomy on there and Sean was like about to blow a gasket and he was like, we need to revise this list. Two episodes. It's a really good show. Oh my lord.

24, I think 24 should have been in the top 40. Okay. Okay. I accept that. I think his ideas were better than his execution. It's completely revolutionary as network television. It did. And it was the first binge watch show. 24 and loss, yes it was. 24 and loss together made people, made television people like rethink what TV could be. So I acknowledge that. So I didn't watch 24 in the moment, but we've got the DVDs. And it was when my wife was pregnant with my first, with my daughter. And she was super pregnant. Like the last, like. Like too hot to move. Let me tell you something for the people out there who either have not gone through or not

married to somebody who had a kid or the ladies out there listening who have not had a child yet, that last month is way worse than anyone's going to tell you. It's a thousand percent worse. Like that thing is just in your body like a brick. Your body's full of blood. You're like 170 degrees and you can't move. It's just awful. And we thought we were going to have the baby. And then we went in and they were like, no, no. So we had this whole weekend where like just every minute we thought the baby was coming, but it wasn't.

And she's just lying on her side. And we watched the entire 24 season one. It was like the only thing that made that weekend fun was Jack Bauer. And the double agent cross was like, Whoa, like that was a moment. Sure. That's a show that should have been one season. Probably really good ideas.

Season two is maybe two, but that's a lot of like network shows that had new ideas and were different that then like spawned a peak TV. Like they should have been cut off. Like the problem with the networks is they had the right ideas to begin with and they couldn't, unlike Dawson's Creek and it's best episode ever. Couldn't land the plane. Yeah. Well, and they couldn't, unlike Dawson's Creek in its best episode ever, couldn't land the plane.

Yeah. Well, it should have been 13. Yeah. Because even the first season of 24, there's some episodes where it's like, Jack got a new car and he's trying to find water. That was like the whole episode. That really revived his career too. No one really cared about him.

Then he was just back. I mean, Jason Patrick sent him in a tailspin for the greatest Hollywood story of all time. It's a really good one. Should we recount it? The Julia Roberts tale? I think it's a narrative podcast for us. That's a good idea. 19 episodes.

We'll save it. Yeah, 19 episodes. The time Julia Roberts fled to Ireland. There's just this whole world before the internet and Us Weekly and gossip and really before it came into its own where Julie Roberts, the biggest star we had, the biggest female movie star in the world at the moment was getting married to Kiefer Sutherland, who was Donald Sutherland's son, who was also a smaller but recognizable person in his own right. And they're getting married. And the best man, Jason Patrick, also an actor, also well-known, appeared with Kiefer Sutherland in Lost Boys,

steals Julie Roberts two days before the wedding, and they disappear. They go to Ireland. They go to Ireland. And that's it. Calls off the wedding. The wedding's over. Nephew, did you know this?

I had no idea. No clue. Best man stole her away. I think both of them stole her. All three famous people. She was the most famous movie actress in the world. That's worth a Google search. Yeah.

Check that out. There's a great People magazine has like a sneaky good archives. And there's a great People magazine kind of breakdown of it. That's like a Zach Lowe breaking down San Antonio's offense with DeMar DeRozan. That's a good video explainer for us. The Julia Roberts. How did she get so quickly from her wedding to Ireland? How did she do it?

I mean, they must've known. Yeah. You don't just on a whim, go to Ireland. Yeah. I think they also. Not pre-internet.

No way. It's not like you have hotel tonight now. Like, Oh, I'm going to put it in Dublin. Apple's tax haven. So who knows what's been going on there for a long time. So a couple more gripes.

Okay. Homeland the weekend. I just would add top 50 that season one of Homeland was a real thing. We had Grantland season one then ironically and weirdly, I did the recap on Grantland for this weekend episode. Weird. I did a running diary of it because Andy Greenwald was recapping it, but was had a wedding or something that weekend. And I took over and that's somewhere in the Grantland archives. So funny. I went, I have a good story. I like it. I went on a birthright the summer after that season in between one and two. And I remember in like when on birthright, a thing is like what Israeli soldiers come and join the trip and like everyone tries to hook up with them. And I, and I remember talking to one of the Israeli soldiers on my trip about homeland

because it started as an Israeli show and like just really laid the groundwork for us. So that's all. What's your pair rankings for ideal husband? Not Michael B. Jordan excluded. Oh, he's number one. Is Israeli soldier two or is it is it NBA? NBA front office is probably number two. NBA front office.

In a major market only. Director of player operations? Yeah. Head of scouting? I just want- Somebody who has a chance to ascend? Stable franchise in a major market. So that's pretty limiting.

But like, so I'm kind of on the Kawhi Leonard plan basically. But yeah, I would say that's number two behind Michael B. Have to be Jewish? No. I don't know. I hope my mom's not listening okay all right

so if somebody's out there who is on the way up in an NBA front office and loves Dawson's Creek don't need to love it we'll tolerate Dawson's Creek we'll get into it with you that Dawson

great episode of television Home Win the Weekend was great and that season one of Home Win that's another show that really could have just no- Great episode of television. Home Win the Weekend was great. And that season one of Home Win, that's another show that really could have just stopped existing after season one. They brought Brody back for season two, which was a mistake. I think my problem,

I haven't fully launched into Billions. I'm wading into the pool. I just like hate Damian Lewis as a result of Brody. It's a problem for me. No, he'll win you back. Okay. Yeah, he'll win you back. Yeah, I don't know which Billions episode

should have been on here. It's been a for me. No, he'll win you back. Okay. Yeah, he'll win you back. I don't know which Billions episode should have been on here. It's been a couple of good ones. You can think about that for the next time we re-up this. Trying to think. There was one great one this year. Dexter, The Getaway. I thought that should have been top 25. That was the season finale.

John Lithgow. The whole Dexter season with John Lithgow is probably the most underrated TV season in the last 12 years. It is phenomenal. It's just start to... Kyle, you watch Dexter? Yeah. Did you see the John Lithgow season? I think it's season four.

I think I made it about three seasons in. Go back. It's really worth it. Bang out the John Lithgow season. Because one in four. So I won't spoil it because I want people to watch it. That whole start to finish, everything about that

and then the show immediately never recovered. No, I mean, it just was such a high, high. I liked the Julia Stiles season, but I think I liked it because I think they had good sexual chemistry.

I was like, okay, I'll watch this. But I, yeah. Lithgow was like overqualified to be on that show, which always makes a good TV show. Totally.

He was like too good of an actor to be on that whole, which always makes a good TV show. Totally. He was like too good of an actor to be on that whole season. He was excellent on that show. That show would be more popular now if it was starting like tomorrow. I would have had that top 25. We did not put Louis in the top 50, which understandable given recent events, I guess.

But the Dane Cook episode was one of the most memorable episodes I've seen this entire century and should have been in the top 20 it was at least in mine I it's complicated

about separating art from artist real life stuff from the art and stuff but that whole episode and trying to figure out what was real

and what wasn't real I just thought that was an incredible half hour television Dane Cook is super fascinating to me it was Dane Cook is super fascinating to me. It was Dane Cook's greatest moment. Yeah.

And I don't know if he's ever done anything relevant since other than sell out stadiums. No. And also, what year was that episode? Probably like five years ago. Yeah. So that was also like after his peak. Like Dane Cook peaked in like 2005, 2006. There was so much like baggage and inside shit.

I just love that episode. I thought it was awesome. I think you could probably do this exercise with like the best comedy episodes and it would be really fascinating because so much has changed with the comedy world and like what we value now versus even like eight years ago,

I think it's really changed. Curb and Louie, until all this stuff with CK happened, Louie was considered to be one of the great comedies of all time. Yeah, and it's just really hard to think of him that way. Yeah, I get it. Friday Night Lights.

I have two gripes left and then we're going to go. Okay. Friday Night Lights. We picked the pilot. I actually didn't love the pilot. I thought the pilot was fine. The football fuck-ups in the closing drive, this is why the Ringer's going to start this little side company

where we just advise movies and TV shows on how to get the sports stuff right. They recover an onside kick. Somebody gets a run. They run down to like the 20. And then in the last play, Saracen's scrambling around. He's like 80. He's on his own 20 somehow. Like we somehow went backwards 50 yards, never saw it.

I just can't get past it. And it's grim. But I would have, I thought for season one, like this one, I feel really strongly about the slam page episode with Minka Kelly. Sure. Which was really like the first internet shaming episode I'd seen and just had so, it was so raw and it was, she was kind of a villain, but I felt bad for her too. And I thought it did such a good job of explaining what the internet does to kids at a time when we weren't really, we didn't have a lot of info on it yet. It was kind of the Jackie Robinson of wading into that kind of area.

I thought that was great. And the two-part racist coach was all time. That was very good. I think Friday Night Lights. You just didn't like the show. I did not dislike it. I liked it. Friday Night Lights is probably the most sentimental show on this list.

Way more than anything else that I was standing for. Like way more. And so I think that your enjoyment of Friday Night Lights is based a lot on who your favorite characters are. Because I think that like more than any other ensemble, it's so much driven by which storyline you're invested in. This is your weirdest and most inexplicable corner to me of all the corners. My other thing is-

I've known you for six years. Seven. I understand you through and through. And yet I don't understand this. This is, it's a teen show. You love teen shows. It's over dramatic it involves love triangles and all the shit that you like michael b jordan is in it your favorite celebrity

i prefer the east dylan seasons because i love vince so much so there's some good shows yeah i think i think that seasons three and four may be better like two is obviously the worst well i mean one is really good season one one. The step with Vince and Journey Smollett is really good too. I liked her a lot. Such, it's so weird. I don't know.

I just think Friday Night Lights is really good, but like I love, I'm about heart. I love sentimentality. I love emotional TV. I love an ensemble drama,

but I just think that like in some ways the mechanism that it used to tell the stories didn't ring true for me, but I liked it a lot. I'm over Parenthood person.

I'm sorry. But Dawson's Creek was so realistic. I love Parenthood more than Friday Night Lights, which I think is probably also rare. Was Parenthood on our list? There was one episode. Oh, no. Actually, it was not. I would have remembered.

I regret that. I wish we'd put it on. It was very good. Parenthood could have been on. It was very good. What was the iconic Parenthood episode? Probably the season when Christina has cancer is like a pretty good one. Actually, I don't know.

Maybe one of the Mike Weed Jordan episodes. I think that. Paranoid was a good show. I loved it. I mean, Jacoby and I, that was part of our Right Reasons zone too. We wrote about it every week for a while. I loved it. Last but not least, SNL.

Egregious. This was egregious. I actually felt like you guys were trying to hurt me with this one. You know, I- There were maybe 40 episodes I would have gone with over the one we picked.

Fine. Okay. However, I will say, Amanda makes a really compelling case. Read her blurb. I thought she wrote a great piece on it. Great writer. Fantastic ringer employee.

I just would have picked 40 others. What's your pick? Well, so I said this to you. I thought the most powerful, best SNL episode of the century was the 9-11 episode. The first six minutes of that was like a really important cultural moment. Is the rest of the episode good though? It doesn't matter. It's the same thing with like the speech in Survivor at the end of the Survivor episode.

Like if the moment transcends everything, I think we should have had a 9-11 section because we did a great job with those sidebars, but how 9-11 affected different shows, I think would have been good. And it's funny because Giuliani is such a big part of it. And now has obviously people's opinions have flipped on him in a lot of different corners, but it was such a weird time for the show,

not knowing if it should even go on do people want to laugh anymore oh really they're going to do SNL somebody didn't want to host it I forget who backed out and Reese Witherspoon ended up taking over she should have known she was great then and that first six minutes

and Paul Simon playing the boxer it was just fucking amazing it was honestly one of my favorite moments of TV ever the Paul Simon moment was incredible and just the boxer. It was just fucking amazing. It was honestly one of my favorite moments of TV ever. The Paul Simon moment was incredible. And just the opening, the opener was incredible. The whole thing. There's definitely a case to be made. I think that the lasting influence of that,

of Tina Fey, Sarah Palin, is like more woven into the fabric of pop culture. I get it. But I think I would argue strategy with Bush and Gore and Will Ferrell. That was 2000. That was just a more memorable moment. The Sarah Palantino fave, people

remember, but the strategery, that actually, it almost felt like it was going to swing the election there for a little bit. He made Bush such a character. I do feel like he hurt Bush in that election. I'm concerned that the greatness of Will Ferrell is being lost to time because he kind of doesn't care.

Will Ferrell is so fucking funny. No, not in this house. I, like... Not for Nephi Kyle. No. I think that old school is not discussed enough. I just feel like,

I just feel like Will Ferrell and his greatness is just not celebrated. I like to celebrate it every day. Like, I just think he is so funny. He was the funniest, most popular man alive for like five years.

I agree. For like 12. I also, for SNL, the first Lazy Sunday basically created YouTube. 2005, 2006. It was the end of 2005, December 2005. And that was right around that time. YouTube, not a lot of people even knew it existed. Video on the internet hadn't really worked until 2005 where

before that it was in this weird world where you needed a crazy connection speed and you had to go find weird servers and shit like that and uh and lazy sunday blew up and it was the first really viral thing ever yeah i i that's a made good case as well i think that's a case for like a pivot in in snl strategy in some ways. Also, Andy Sandberg's career changed that day. And then the Justin Timberlake episode in 06, which had Dick in the Box and also had a Barry Gibbs show.

He sang and it was peak Timberlake. I think that's one of the best five SNL episodes ever. Who's your favorite host? I actually would have picked that over all the ones we mentioned just from a start to finish awesome. I think that has the best case of the ones that you're mentioning here. If we're going to start to finish this impact. It had a, I think it had like an omelet bill.

Dick in the box was the funniest video they ever did. I think. Really good. I'm obsessed with Lonely Island. I watch their videos on YouTube like regularly just for fun. So I love all that stuff. There was some good 08. I'd have to go through the episodes, but the 08 cast was really, really crazy loaded.

And there was a writer's strike that year. So they only did like 13 episodes. But it was during the election. And just every, when you look at that cast now and all the people that were on it, like Hayter and Wig and Sandberg and Armisen, it was really like the last crazy, Seth Meyers doing Weekend Update.

It was like crazy, crazy loaded. So yeah, I would have thrown that on there. That's fair. But the reason we do this like this is to make people crazy. It's to debate. What was the thing we put up today? I didn't even see with people making their crazy.

Irrational number one. There's a lot of ridiculous picks and that's why it's irrational. Like Alison Herman picking RuPaul. Sure, it's a great show. Most impactful hour of TV. I don't know. I don't know, Alison.

Pretty wild? The Melancholy of Haru Suzumaya by Justin Charity? World of Jinx? Yeah, we got all these weirdos. Oh, there's a lot of good ones here. I know. It's been really a fun project. I find so much joy in television

and I love the conversation around it and how communal it is. Speaking of television, shout out to my friend, Kevin Wilds. I've known him for 12 years. He got this job, third hour at GMA. Congrats, Kev. With Michael Strahan.

He's at ESPN for a long time. He's one of my favorite people to work with. And one thing when you leave, when you leave a place that you've been with for a while, you know, there's all the other things. But then also like you're not on the same team

with certain people anymore. I know you felt that too. Wilds was, Wilds always just hurt not being on the Wilds team. Wilds is also a great guy. I can always count on Wilds to like notice when something that you care about happens

and he'll send you a text. Married really well. Married to one of my favorite people and closest friends. So 06, he sees Libby Geist and tells Jacoby, I'm going to marry that girl. Yeah.

In the office. And hey, now they're married. Now in 2018, Jacoby would be like, ah, you got to go to HR. You've offended me. Yeah. One of the great couples, great wedding.

Wish I'd been there. Kevin Wilds, GMA. Very proud of him. I went to, I posted the, I was going to post the YouTube link we did for, it was my favorite, Wilds and I used to do half-baked ideas. Yes. And my favorite one ever was when I threw felony island at him, or I'm sorry, felony land, which was basically every time, the idea was every time I drive by a Brinks truck, for whatever reason, I always think about how I would want to rob it. Even though I'm not a criminal, I've never committed a crime.

But you see Brinks truck, you're just like, how would I rob it if I had to? I think all of us have thought that. Right. So then Wild's like, oh man, I understand that. So then it led to me talking about an amusement park where people commit crimes, which is like how you go to play paintball. But instead of going to play paintball, you would like go to rob a bank. And so I set it up and then I was like, I even have a name for a felony land. And he just started like cackling, dying, laughing. But then he raised a very good

point that this sounds like it would be a training ground for criminals. It would be. And that was when we looked at each other and I was like, this is why it's a half-baked idea. It was not a fully-baked idea. I hadn't figured the part, the training ground for criminals out. But we had done a video of it and it's not on YouTube anymore, sadly, but you can at least get the podcast link. But anyway, I love doing those with Wilds. I'm happy for Wilds. I'm happy for Wilds too, for the entire Wilds family. Congrats to all of them. Power rank your favorite ESPN employees from when we were at Greenland.

Jacoby one. It's a list of one. Oh, it's a list of two. No, sorry. Tied for four. I can't rank my friends, Bill. I'm just thinking about all my friends ESPN still. It's just, maybe it's like the hall of fame.

It's a class. Yeah. Everybody gets in. Yeah. So it's like Jac hall of fame it's a class yeah everybody gets in yeah it's my it's like jacoby wilde connor that's my that's the squad it's your class that's my class yeah that's like the west beverly hills high of class of 1993 so if we didn't know the greatest episodes in the history of television which 90210 episode would you pick? Let's end here. Wow. The best episode of 90210

is when Kelly almost dies in the fire and Brandon is in San Francisco with Emily. Strong choice. Thank you. Strong choice.

My personal favorite episode is when Valerie, Jonesy, and Dylan go to Mexico to dylan's money back is just a start to finish astonishing achievement it's so good it's astonishing it involves at one point the guy pulls out a samurai sword on dylan and it's just astonishing

valerie's in a bikini the whole time the entire time it was kind of also one of the for me one of the first like oh oh, this is Mexico. Like I'm like, oh, okay. I see it on TV. MTV really leaned into that after. Just great, great stuff. And then,

I mean, George Clooney would be in the top five for like all of them, you know? Dylan, when Dylan was drinking again, which is my favorite run of the show. Yeah.

After Tony dies. He goes to the soiree. No, no. Before Tony dies. Oh. When he loses all his money. Got it. When Valerie's trying to take him on as a project. Yeah. He goes to the, it's like the second episode and it's like, what's going on with Dylan?

Nobody realized he's off the wagon yet. So like when he gets, they take his money. He doesn't know Kelly's dating Dylan. I mean, I'm sorry, Kelly's dating Brandon. Goes to the party that everyone's dressed up and comes in in the t-shirt and puts his feet in the table.

My best friend, my best girl. It's like a bad movie. And that whole thing is amazing. Season four starts with- That one still holds up. So well. That's season four, right? Season three going into season,

the first college season. Yeah. Heading into... Yeah, the Lucinda arc when Brandon goes to Washington with Kelly. I love those episodes. Lucinda was on... What show?

I just saw her as the mom on... Oh, Handmaid's Tale, maybe? Oh, I haven't watched that. My wife was watching Handmaid's Tale. Lucinda's one of the most beautiful women to ever be on television. Succession? Oh, Kyle's getting bored.

No, no. Jesus, Kyle. Thank you so much for having me, Bill. This has been a true delight. This was really fun. Thanks everybody for listening. And we'll be back next week. Kind of a lot to talk about.

We have, there's going to be some Red Sox Yankees. We're calling Jacko. Jacko, if the Yankees get swept, might actually get banned from Twitter. Yeah, arguing with people on Twitter, stuff like that. My dad was on Twitter, very excited about Ian Kinsman. Okay.

Who's actually Ian Kinsler. Yeah, I know. He tweeted about Kinsman. He's one of the Jewish professional athletes. Of course I know. I've got them all up here. My dad tweeting after 10 o'clock is always a problem. Nice. Just a lot of misspelling states of that, but he was excited about that. I want to

talk about Randy Moss and Terrell Owens making the hall of fame. Maybe we'll do that next week. And we have an old friend from my ESPN days is going to be on next week who has not been on the Bill Simmons podcast. We're also creeping toward 400. I think this is 396. Four left. Yeah, here we go. All right, thanks, Juliet. Thanks, Bill. All right, thanks to ZipRecruiter.

Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to theringer.com. You can find that TV episode stuff and all the other TV content we wrote about this week, which was fantastic at theringer.com. Thanks to Gillette. Don't forget about gilletteondemand.com. Gillette offers a variety of shaving products for every guy, regardless of his personal style,

skin needs or budget. Whether you want three blades or five, the Gillette 3 and Gillette 5 razors have you covered. All under $10, high performance at a low price. Get Gillette performance delivered to your door. Find Gillette 5 at gilletteondemand.com. Subscribe today. Starbucks Double Shot. Let'sette 5 at GilletteOnDemand.com. Subscribe today. Starbucks Double Shot.

Let's talk about them too. Thanks for them. Starts with bold Starbucks coffee, blend it with milk for a smooth, creamy, delicious flavor. It's enhanced with ginseng, guarana, and B vitamins. Starbucks Double Shot. It's energy to do the things you actually do. Find it in your local convenience store.

Thanks to Nephew Kyle Kyle back next week. On the wayside On the first side of the road I don't have to ever forget