The Bill Simmons Podcast - The 12 Remaining NBA Questions With Rob Mahoney and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan and Rob Mahoney to unload a ton of NBA Finals big-picture thoughts. They talk about how the Finals MVP seemed to eclipse the Celtics' title and a truly weird postseason (1:33); Jaylen Brown's ascension, Kristaps Porzingis's image rehab, and NBA awards tweaks (20:27); what's next for Jayson Tatum, and which team could "crash the playoff party" next season (43:30); whether this was the Mavericks' big chance and "Kyrie Irving: over/under/properly rated?" Plus, Lakers vs. Celtics franchise legacy, and more (1:06:21)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Ryan and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, I know it's the middle of the week, but we got to talk more basketball next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season

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and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that are when you want a light beer that tastes

like beer. That's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. Also brought to you by the Rer podcast network chris ryan what are you up to i'm on the watch podcast yeah i'm on the rewatchables podcast with you very often the big picture podcast yeah live show uh yeah we just did group chat i did did group chat with rob and we got a talk to

thrones live show on tuesday coming up you're busy guy i know thanks for having me though dragon what's that dragon show? What's it called? The Dragon Show? Is that what they call it now? House of the Dragon. House of the Dragon. Not just House of Dragon? What year it's set? I thought it was in the 1300s. Rob, are you a Dragon Show fan?

I need to get up. I'm hoping Chris can coach me up on it. I'm behind, but that's what the offseason is for. When are you going to watch Presumed Innocent? Yeah, we got to get you on that. Is that... It's good? Oh, yeah. It's good. I know what happened, though. Did they change it? Yeah, I don't know. Also, don't tell me what happened. I don't know what happened. Is it like we need to cover it on Prestige TV?

We're already covering it. I am covering it with Joanna on Prestige TV. Bill, we got to get you on Presumed Innocent. As you know, I've been in a Celtics bunker for two weeks. Now I'm back, baby. BS Podcast next. First Pearl Jam. All right. Rob Mahoney and Chris Ryan are here.

I have a bunch of things. I was on a plane for six and a half hours yesterday just writing shit down that I didn't get to cover with my dad. Big picture stuff. I also was taking JetBlue and just watching ESPN for a couple of hours. So watching all their segments. Just scrawling furiously on a napkin.

I was like, really? A lot of like, really guys? Just talking out loud. And then, and then I watched the replay of the game,

which was also interesting. We need to work on our postgame celebration questions. Oh, for like, yeah, we peaked with Stu Scott

and now it's a lot of like What does this mean to you, Chris Ryan? How hard was it to win the title? Who are you voting for in November, Jason Kaden? You must be held to account We gotta really press these guys But let's start I have a bunch of questions I wrote down

We'll start here How did the finals MVP vote become a bigger post-game story than the Celtics winning the title, going 80-21, 46-6 at home, and 16-3 at the playoffs? It's just the talk culture we have now. What do you think, Rob? I mean, I think some of it is once you go up 3-0 in a series, that's where the attention naturally turns.

It would with any team, but especially one like this, where there's kind of an open question in the room as to who it should be. It's kind of a perfect storm for it, I think. So it becomes empty the notebook immediately? A little bit. And you can see it

somewhat the Luca conversation in this series too where there's just a natural pivot point in the series where we're trying to figure out how to process this stuff and what the takeaway should be.

And once it's pretty clear that the Celtics are going to dominate this thing more or less, we have to go somewhere. I do wonder though if it's a clear that the Celtics are going to dominate this thing more or less, we have to go somewhere. I do wonder, though, if it's a trickle-down effect of the fact that we're doing NBA MVP straw polls two weeks into the season, and who's going to win the MVP gets way more attention than somebody,

team that's on a 10-game winning streak. You know what I mean? Like, it's the nationalization of the NBA, where I think that the assumption is that like nobody really cares about how any given team is doing with the exception of like say the Lakers. Once they know they're going to win the title or whatever. But even over the course of the season, I think that we're way more interested in individual narratives than we are in like team success or performance. Well, I think there's something like baseball is

obviously very siloed in that way where you follow one team and you see the league through the lens and the prism of your team. The NBA is not quite like that, but even the real league pass junkies are mostly locked in

on a pretty narrow window and they need or want that kind of like, what's my way in to understanding what this season is about? And the MVP conversation is a good way to do it.

And I'm watching Wemby to watch Wemby, not to see how the Spurs are doing. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm like following the team. I am following the it. And I'm watching Wemby to watch Wemby, not to see how the Spurs are doing. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm like following the team. I am following the player.

But I do think that, I mean, for better or for worse, that's where we've arrived. I get it during the season because, like you said, we go player-centric during the season because teams are too volatile,

right? You could be like, oh my God, they've won 14 of 15 and then they'll lose 5 of 7. Yeah, having to look at the Cavs. So the player stuff and is this person top level? I certainly do my share of it on this podcast it was interesting

though because I was sitting in the seats with my dad with like four or five minutes left when it was clear we were probably going to win and it was one of the breaks and we just kind of looked at each other and we're like who's the finals MVP gonna be not that we wanted to know who's gonna win but what the ramifications of the vote would be right and we were like oh man I was like so in in the seats I was like I hope Tatum wins because then Jalen will get one and Tatum will get one and then we're just done with that combo I also thought Tatum the way he played in game five probably like slightly deserved it because he was so great and Brown was pretty bad in game four Brown was bad in game four and then offensively was terrible in game five probably like slightly deserved it because he was so great. And Brown was pretty bad in game four.

Brown was bad in game four. And then offensively was terrible in game five and was good defensively. But anyway, it seemed like it was close. And I think our fear coming out of the game was like, oh, man, I hope this doesn't become a story. But then the way they handled the locker room was so smart. It was almost like they had talked about it beforehand. Like no matter what happens, let's say we did this together.

We're brothers in arms. It was the two of us. Tatum's posting comments under Brown's Instagram MVP. They just did everything perfectly. They took it off the table as a combo, which weirdly in 2024 you have to do. You do.

Or else it becomes a cover. And it would have if they handled it any differently. I think the one side of the celebration being so premeditated is everything you saw from Jason Tatum.

Like a little rehearsed, a little like, I'm going to try to have my big moment here in front of the camera. I think that that's kind of, yeah, and that's kind of his vibe all over.

For sure. It's like this weird Tatum backlash? No, I'm just saying like, I think we did it. Like there is a, are you this weird co- Is it the Tatum backlash? No, I'm just saying like I think Just that we did it. Like there is a Are you mad because you traded out of the Tatum backlash?

I'm actually You know what? I'm trying to be fucking generous here today. I think he seems like he's like a guy who is like in a lab somewhere

being like what is the perfect reaction to each given moment in my basketball career? But the flip side of that is you do get a little more care around these things. You get Jalen Brown, even as he's accepting the award,

shouting out Jason Tatum and saying, we really did this together. That's, I think, a show of grace that this kind of moment demands or else it is going to blow up. Can you, the way you just described Tatum. Yeah. It's funny. I was thinking about this when I was, when I was flying

back. Cause we would see this. I used to love tennis a lot more than I do now, but you would see this with different tennis champs, right? When certain people would just completely resonate and then other people like kind of resonated, but not totally. Right. You had like Martina hinges somebody like that, or like Lendl was the worst case scenario. But then when Boris Becker won Wimbledon. People freaked out. It was like, oh my God, Boris Becker. Agassi forever.

But Sampras not so much. Sampras never. Agassi for a while, no. And then later in his career, all of a sudden people were like, Agassi, I fucking love that guy. And nobody ever really totally loved Sampras. It took Serena years to really win that over.

And Tatum to me is almost like getting the tennis player treatment where it's like, I really appreciate that. He just run the French Open. He was very good, but I'm not going to be telling my grandkids about this. Do you think that that for the basketball players has something to do with the lack of time they spend in the college game?

Because college was where we used to develop our relationships to these guys. Think about how much it colored how you felt about the Fab Five guys or Carmelo or whatever. It was always like, oh, this guy made a crazy run. I was obsessed with Kemba coming into

the league because of UConn. So I think that sometimes with Tatum, I know he was at Duke and I honestly can't remember for five seconds, a single second of his Duke career or like how well or poorly he did, but he just feels like he's always been this dude on the Celtics waiting for this moment and has rehearsed. He has rehearsed what he was going to say after this. I think the Celtics overall had this vibe too.

And the reception has kind of been met in that way where it's obviously impressive, a dominant run. You can't indict anything that they've done here. Like this is a great championship. And yet some championships just respond more with people than others. And some superstars respond more than people with others. And that's okay. Like you don't have to have everything.

You have the ring and the trophy and no one can ever take that away from you. I thought it was pretty interesting. You know, I wanted to ask you about this because you look at like the continuum of the last couple of decades of the game. And, you know, we're kind of ending the LeBron era. We're probably exiting the Curry era a little bit,

the Durant era. And this championship reminded me a little bit of early 2000 San Antonio. Like a bridge title? Well, it's like clearly the best team. Yes, no doubt. Like clearly the best run team. You know, a group of fan base that obviously appreciates...

You'd have them over Detroit? What's that? You'd have them over Detroit as best run franchise? Now, whether it's... A whiff hire? That most entertaining franchise is a much different conversation but it kind of reminds me a little bit of that era

where it was like ah Tim Duncan got another one how about that well time to get on to baseball you know like that was kind of how it was in 2000

like those seven Spurs-ish three yeah yeah after the Kobe Shaq dynasty or that run in the beginning of the decade

and then it was like Spurs-Piston-Spurs the Heat the decade. And then it was like Spurs, Pistons, Spurs. The Heat won one there. But it was kind of like, cool, basketball's neat. And LeBron wasn't here yet. AI was kind of fading. And this post-Jordan hangover. And even though Kobe and Shaq were incredible,

the Lakers were villains to a lot of the NBA and they had their own problems. That's kind of where I feel like we're at now. And the Celtics are very representative of that. I think the one issue they had, which isn't their fault, is just they didn't have like some great games during this playoff run.

Probably the most entertaining games they had were the two Indiana road games, which were great, but messy. Messy, but good comebacks. Put some chest hair on themselves. And yet people watch them are like, congratulations, you good comebacks. For sure. To put some chest hair on themselves. And yet people watch them and are like, congratulations, you barely beat Andrew Nembhard. Yeah.

Who's, by the way, feeling it. You know, so it's not like I look when you end these playoffs, you always think like, Well, there's an asterisk on that because we'll never know what would have happened if Matherin had been playing. It's true. Well, true.

Is that a Hal Burton thing? But you think about like the NBA uh nba tv when they run like the greatest games or like during the summer it's like august they're like oh we'll run the best games from the playoffs i don't for the celtics it would probably be game three dallas which they almost blew in the second half right uh in those two indiana games and and that's probably it and i think that like Bellany asked me, like the, the finals just came and went.

Did anyone care? And it's like, part of the reason was the, the series sucked. Like the finals wasn't good. Luca didn't really play that well, even though he was terrifying the whole time. Kyrie was awful.

Um, Tatum didn't shoot well for the first two games at least, but it was, it just, it's just going to want to be one of those things that come and go. Like, what do you remember from the 03 finals?

What do you remember from the 07 finals? What do you remember from the 15 finals? Sure. But not only like games, even moments. I think there's not even

just signature moments or shots. Yeah, you don't get it. You don't get LeBron blocking it with Ola. There's not like a Draymond dick punch. Yes.

Or a big comeback or anything. And that's fine and in some ways more impressive, but maybe not more resonant, right? Like running people

over in this way. And I think the Spurs comp is a good one. I hadn't really thought about the 07 Spurs in particular, but that kind of machinery of, oh, this is just a

superior team rolling over an opponent that's very good, but maybe not entirely up to this kind of competition. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. And then when you

flash forward, you know, the Spurs didn't really get that sort of resonant moment for almost another decade. No, they had to turn into the sort of like beautiful basketball Spurs. Totally.

The 14th Spurs. Yeah, that's when they got it. Yeah, the 07 one was funny because that was the Horry year. The Horry pushing Nash in the scorer's table. And they won. And I thought the Spurs

were the best team that year. And even when you go back and you actually like study that series, like they were going to win that series. I think regardless what happens. The Suns had a great chance. I still feel like the Spurs were better. But then the years pass and it becomes,

oh, they only won because the Horry thing. And then they played LeBron in the finals. 0-7 LeBron. So we had nobody else on that team. And that's just kind of what happens. The more I think about it, this team reminds me of the 15 warriors. Because like,

if you ask the warriors, that's a, that's a big statement. I can't believe you'd think that, but go ahead. No, but I just, the warriors,

I think statistically like win loss record, how they did in the playoffs, very similar point differential. Sure. Uh, young stars that clearly had more stuff on the horizon for them. And then also,

they never really left you that confident the entire time. They definitely, I mean, it looked shaky against Memphis that year. Yeah. And even in the finals,

it was like, oh, well, what would have happened if... So then what's the difference? Is it a lack of charisma on the part of the stars? No, I just think it's like... Why is the Jays not as big as Splash Brothers? The reason I used the 15 Warriors is because there was all

the statistical evidence in 15 that the Warriors were a really great team. Yes. And nobody believed it the entire time. People were like tying themselves in knots. And it was like, yeah, but they shoot so many jump shots. Yeah, but Curry's too young. Yeah, but what happens when they play a big guy? Yeah, but what happens when they do LeBron? And then they won and people were like, oh yeah, they shots. Yeah, but Curry's too young. Yeah, but what happens when they play a big guy? Yeah, but what happens

when they do LeBron? And then they won and people are like, oh yeah, they won. Oh, this is great. And that's what this feels like. But I think with that Warriors team, if you ask Warriors fans now,

what's your favorite title? It's 15, right? Or 22. No. I think it's... You think it's the comeback, the 22 one? I think it's 22

and I think 17 when they just laid the smackdown on everybody would probably be the comeback the 22 I think it's 22 and I think 17 when they just laid the smackdown on everybody would probably be the second one I don't know I think over 15 I think 15 is still really

a beloved moment you think? I think so yeah 15 I also think for 22 probably number one though right? because of Curry

I think the satisfaction of that looping back around yeah is probably hyped because that puts him into like a whole new stratosphere all time of being able to come back

and revive that and win it again. But that 15 team felt like, hey man, what are you doing tonight? Curry's playing. We have to go to a bar showing this Warriors game to see this guy play. And the Celtics lacked that player.

Well, that team that had the, oh my god, we won. If you're a Warriors fan, they had won in a million years. That's what the league sea change kind of feel. This is something different. And I know people are trying to make that argument with the Celtics too,

because it's kind of like the logical extension of all the threes that people have been taking for years. But I don't know. It feels like incremental versus that felt dramatic. Yeah, the Celts end up, they had the second best playoff record of anyone in the 16-win era, which just seems inconceivable.

Crazy. The 07 Warriors were 16-1, and then the 23 Denver and 07 San Antonio were 16-4. That was another case for that San Antonio team, by the way. They did kind of demolish people. They're also one of eight teams

to have a 10-point differential in the season and in the playoffs. That includes that game where they lost by 38. They just lost that game by six. They would have had one of the great differentials. Yet, everybody's like, I don't know. Could they win one more?

It just seems like people are more confused than anything. I think that speaks to more what a weird season it was and how many guys got hurt. And a strange postseason. And what you said about like this shift of eras that I don't feel like

is done yet. Well, think about how ahead of our skis we got probably with Ant. With a bunch of guys that we were like, here we go.

It's Shae's time. And it's like, eh, it's Ant's time. Eh, it seems like we kind of ran out of gas against Luke.

But Ant rope-a-doped us though. I actually, I don't apologize for any. I don't apologize for anything. Ant for nine games was like he had become Michael Jordan. And it was the most fun

I had in the postseason. And then all of a sudden it was over. Yeah. But, you know, we kind of lost out on a couple of the, I think we all wanted to see Denver-Boston play against each other.

I don't know if the result would have been different or at least more competitive. And I honestly think this thing... We can talk about Luka if you want, but this finals kind of deflated the night Luka fouled out. Well, here's who I blame. Number one, just Giannis, not his fault, but getting hurt. Like that Giannis

Dame Bucks versus Celtics if you blame Embiid next I'm gonna get I'm gonna get mad I don't blame Embiid okay Jimmy Butler

for faking his knee injury because he didn't want to play the Celtics wow what's my camera Jimmy we know you faked the injury no I'm kidding

no just has he had surgery on that what happened no I think he did. Did he? But just not actually beating Jimmy Butler and then it was just like this carcass of a Heat team that just started shooting threes and once that ran out, it was over.

It wasn't satisfying to beat Caleb Martin? I loved it. You loved it. I think it was actually important for Missoula to just beat Eric Spolstra in a series. You need the confidence from it. But those two things. And then Denver not showing up. I do think, yeah, Luka was awesome.

But I do think Denver is a different animal because that team beat the Celtics twice in the regular season. And they were the defending champs. I just feel like it would have had a different weight. Granted, we were going into the series with people asking if Dallas had the two best players in the series, which was... And by the

way, all the Celtic fans kept the receipts. Did you? One of the worst takes of all time. Kyrie was good for four months. Now he's better than Jalen Brown. Like, that was insane. Those guys looked incredible for a while. I understand what you're saying. Come on. That was insane.

He was incredible. He had 16 points a game in the OKC series. We have to build these things up in our heads to be like, here's the argument for watching basketball. Is it this or that? I was like,

Dallas should just be happy to be there. I hope they lose 4-0. It's not going to be a very fun conversation to have. No, but it probably should have been more of a Dallas has the best player

in the series and not the two best players in the series. And Kyrie is the fourth best player in the series. Would have been the correct in the series. And then Kyrie is the fourth best player in the series. Would have been the correct take, really, if you watch basketball for the last eight years. Weren't they saying they have the best backcourt in the series?

Of all time. No, I'm telling you. You can find the takes. Does Dallas have the two best players in the series? And I think there were people that were like, they do. But it was more, and I was doing this before the playoffs, and before the finals

like do people understand how good Brown and Tatum are because I honestly feel like people just weren't watching I think there's some of that especially Brown which I thought was great

anyway the Jalen versus Jason thing one last thing I was just imagining over the years if we had this for like

Elgin Baylor and Jerry West like we had the talk culture we had this for like elgin baylor and jerry west like we had the talk culture we have now in like 1964 and be like whose team is this this is jerry or elgin is it john paxton's time now callance and havlicek would have been a good one moses and doc in 83 moses showed up but is this still doc's team? That's coming up next. But I would like, I mean, the challenge is to be like, George Lynch, could Iverson do it without him? Oh, that's true. What would we do?

We don't know when. Is this Mutombo's team? That's next. Magic and Kareem, I think, would have been the best one, though. Because there was always that car keys thing with them. And Matt, Kareem was clearly the best guy in 80, even though Magic had the great game six. 82 was still Kareem's team,

but then mid-80s, it started to flip. And I think people would have just dined on that every day. Well, I think that's also part of what's confusing about the Jays' conversation, is these guys are just so... It's basically even. And you're like, well, Tatum seems to have been anointed

as this alpha and the lead guy, but he obviously can't do it without Brown. That being said, I don't know if Brown could do it without Tatum. No. I can't believe I'm talking about this. No, no. I want to talk about Brown,

but we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me. I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home

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We just did that ringer hundred, which I think all three of us voted. Yes. I think the biggest surprise of the season, and my dad and I talked about this a little, so I'm repeating it, but just that Jalen became, like, for me, like,

unquestionably a top 15 guy. Which is a huge development for him. And I think, I would not have guessed that. Yeah. I thought there was a ceiling for where it could go with him, and that offensively,

he was just not consistent enough. I thought he was a good defender, but not an elite defender, which I think he became an elite defender this season, not just in the playoffs. And I mean, some of the stats, like from December through March,

which is a four-month sample size, he was 24-6 every night, 52%, 37% from three. And they, a lot of times, wasn't playing in fourth quarters because they were blowing a lot of these teams out. In the playoffs, he was also 24 and six, 52%. Five and a half free throws a game, which was another thing that was super frustrated with him, where it was like, just

shooting jumpers, not going to the basket. Brian Barrett had a couple good things. He said from December to the end of the season, Chris is going to kill himself. From December to the end of the season, top 20 in points in the paint. Yeah. In the playoffs, 12.9 points in points in the paint yeah in the playoffs 12.9 points a game in the paint which is eight so he actually changed how he played and I I thought I thought

he was way stronger yeah really the last two years but especially this year you could just see on the bench like he was jacked and I think and Tatum, I think will get stronger next year. But that was the biggest thing that changed to me is that he just physically became more imposing. So that's what I saw as a Boston fan. You guys don't care about Boston, would you say? Let me ask you, the thing I remember in my 10 times a year watching Jalen or whatever in years past

is like every once in a while, it just seems like he's just like dribbling off his foot throwing it to nobody like the kind of yeah there also seems to be a focus and I think probably the focus was like this is it like this is the you guys have been together for x number of years this is your chance to actually do it every turn it was like there goes Giannis there goes Joel like now no Brunson like you the road is cleared for you guys and it just seemed like that really focused them and maybe it's just maturity but I just what did you what did he get rid of I guess that is is the thing that because like I watched him and I was like yeah he's cool and good but like he fucks up a lot like he he like

these mistakes I think a lot of it is very gradual skill refinement. Jalen Brown's a great player development success story in a way that isn't super sexy because he didn't add one definitive thing to his game. He's got better at a lot of it, better at sensing the moment. And the reason he and Tatum work together and why it makes them so hard to talk about is that Tatum is the best player

mostly because he's slightly more versatile than Jalen Brown is. But he's not like altogether more reliable or more explosive. Like they both have that in them. And I think what Jalen kind of figured out this season is more, when is that spot for you? When is the moment where it's your time to press

and not, I'm going to take this offense by the reins and force it upon the moment. I thought he was better just kind of feeling that stuff out, to be honest. Yeah, and less turnovers, less sloppy, better defensively, just more impactful, creating maybe one more turnover into a fast break play game.

They figured out something, the five-out thing and getting Porzingis and getting rid of Rob Williams and getting rid of Marcus Smart, which a lot of people talked about this week. And just having more space, I think really helped those guys you can see it in dallas in game two and game five where they're just like clear out these guys are going one-on-one they feel like they can get to the rim and they can kick out or they can stop and i just whatever balance they had it was never

100 there until this year that's that's what i Well, the spacing in terms of, you know, you brought up Jalen Brown getting points in the paint, like him unlocking as a cutter comes from that spacing too. The more room you have, then all of a sudden, oh, there's so much easy offense for these guys to scoop up. Well, you think like how many forwards, how many wings can do this? Like even in my top 15,

do you consider Giannis a forward or a big man? I consider him more of a big. That's how I do too. So if we say Giannis is a big, and we say Luka is a guard, that means Tatum's the best forward in the league. Just by whatever you consider that position. Luka is a guard now.

I'm saying if, well, if we're going to say wing or guard. I think he's a guard, but I feel like you've been beating this drum where he's not really a guard. I feel like he's a wing. I don't know. Is he a wing or a guard? He brings the ball up and initiates the offense. He's 260 pounds.

I don't know what to make of it. I don't know what he is. Regardless, he's not doing defensively with these guys. Let's say wing creator with size. We'll put Luka first, Tatum second. Ant's, I think, a guard.

So now it's KD or Jalen for the third best forward in the week. Is Kawhi's injury record just kind of teaching? If you go down, I'm looking at my top 100. After Jalen, you're

looking at Palo, you're looking at LeBron Kawhi Zion Butler yeah Jalen Williams on OKC Paul George Laurie Markkinen Jalen's I think a better bet than all those guys at the forward position if you're looking for a two-way guy and you want to win basketball games and have somebody who's durable and play the durability thing which I always talk about like that matters too with these guys yes they don't get hurt i that was one thing that it didn't even occur to me until i think uh derrick white chipped his tooth where i was like aside from kp it just feels like these guys always get up yeah you know like it in it it is really annoying as a fan of a team with It's one of the rarest skills though, right?

Durability is now like one of the hardest commodities to find. And it may be increasingly valuable. Like if the league is going to have all this parity where you have to be healthy, the time things swing your way. And I think what Boston's been able to do over time is give themselves as much,

as many cracks at this thing as they possibly can. And that's health. That's also just this team staying together despite all of us and everyone else trying to kind of tease them apart and pull them apart. It's really their superpower and what allowed them to get this far.

Yeah, it's almost like with the way that they did, they got rid of Marcus Smart and Time Lord to get Drew and to get KP in. It's almost like they doubled down on Brown and Tatum. They were like, we don't need to screw with this too much. We need Drew Holiday

who's like the consummate teammate. We do the Drew trade every day of the year. Sure. The Marcus trade, I think, was a lot more painful. Yeah. And we said this last year on the pod over and over again.

That trade was more about Tatum and Brown than it was about Marcus Smart. There was a big brother thing with that dude. And he really felt like it was the three of them together. And they had to get rid of that. And it was a brutal trade. And I'm sure Marcus, like if you noticed,

nobody heard from him the last two weeks, right? Yeah. We haven't heard from him yet, I don't think. Haven't heard of him on a podcast or seen him on First Take. He stayed out of this because I think this is pretty painful for him. You think he was supposed to have Julius Randall's spot on the

halftime show and they just couldn't make him? Who was the backup plan if Julius called in and said, we're looking at Chet Holmgren at that point? I think we go down the agency list on that one. I'm not sure who's next in line. I've already made my case about why I don't think Tatum is a finished product,

but I wanted to ask you guys, is Tatum a finished product in your mind? I think he's a finished product on the Celtics with this lineup. I don't really know what else he's going to add to his game. And frankly, I think if there was going to be any development, it'd be like non-basketball. It would be like, I think... Personality development? Well, I think that there's something that happens when you win a championship

that changes the way you approach championship. That changes like the way you approach media. Maybe take some cooking? Like a chef podcast? Honestly, I'm going to. A chef video podcast? Let's see it.

Let's see it. Deuce and Jay in the kitchen. Let me see the knife skills. Woodworking. Teaching my son how to julienne like oranges.

He gets into expensive cocktails. Yeah. Oh, I like that for him. How to make like good scotch drinks. Yeah. He'd be a good muddler.

I could see it for him. What do you think? Is he finished product? I think more or less finished product. But I do agree that there's an ease that comes with winning

sometimes that unlocks something for these guys. You hope that it doesn't decrease some of the hunger. You hope that there aren't negative trade-offs that come with winning because some guys

let their guard down. But ultimately, I think he's more or less this player. I think that player is really good. I think even the Celtics themselves in some ways have been waiting for him to take some next step as a shot creator to hit that next level. That's a really hard thing to do. And if you want to run down the list of the top 100 guys who can actually create individual offense at a higher level than Jason Tatum, it's really not that long a list. He's already really, really good.

Why do you need him to have some other level? Because I think there's one more piece to him that we haven't gotten to yet. But do you feel unsatisfied with where he's at? No. I think it's more a case to me of, is this it? Or if there's one more level,

then that changes the ceiling of what happens the rest of the decade with the Celtics team. Because to me, the level is, I think he can get stronger cause he's stronger now, but even I think he could put on like seven, eight pounds and he's just can the way he bully ball Dallas in the fourth quarter, I feel like is part of the future with him, but figuring out eight to 13 feet and being able to use his strength and speed to get by somebody, but then just take easier shots versus constantly just barreling into people.

Cause you're going to get eventually hurt. I mean, very few people watch as much Celtics as you, how much of it is the system that they play versus like what his limitations are. No, it's the hand Linitis, which,

which, you know, which we're still, and I've talked about forever. Yeah. It's threes or get to the rim. And there's that, that one, like, I mean the best that it is shape right now. Yeah. It's threes or get to the rim. And there's that one,

like, I mean, the best at it is Shea right now, right? And Luka too. Mm-hmm. But these guys that, oh, I got a half step on this. Now this is the 10-footer. I'm taking it.

And Jalen's good at it too. And Tatum's just not good at it yet. I think he'd be a better three-point shooter too. He's not good enough yet as a three-point shooter. Well, a lot of them, he thinks he should. Yeah.

And he takes really tough ones. He takes really bad three-point shots. Well, a lot of them, he thinks he should. And he takes really tough ones. He takes really bad three-point shots. And he's got a, there's an efficiency standpoint. I remember, I mean, LeBron's the best case scenario in this, but LeBron, after he won the first title, that next year, he was so awesome coming out of the gate. It just felt like he had unlocked something mentally. And remember, he shot 60% for like three months.

We were like, oh my God, he went up a level. And then he kept adding stuff year after year. By 2015, he had a post-up game. By 2018, he could just single-handedly overpower whatever lineup somebody had. And that's why I just think it's too early for Tatum. I think there's, I really do. I think there's another level for him.

He just doesn't have the holes in his game that LeBron did. And so many other superstars do. I think, again, this is what makes him so hard to talk about. He can kind of do everything. So it's not like, oh, go down to the post

because he can do that. It's not that he needs to work on his handle in the way that Jalen did because he could already do that. Ultimately, the way you create offense as a team, is it coming from a superstar like Luka or is it coming from system

and for the Celtics it's about system it is and that's that wins you championships in this context and that's okay

and he doesn't have to be that guy he doesn't have to be any better than he is this kind of goes back to this Spurs thing it's like yeah there's some legendary Duncan games

and you'd blink your eyes and all of a sudden he'd be at like 24 and 12 in the third quarter but you don't leave those games being like tim duncan fucking killed everybody out there and i left it that way i love tim duncan yeah i love tim duncan too one of the best players of all time and i i agree with you that i didn't necessarily

have that reaction to a lot of yeah i mean i'm just saying like as a viewer i wasn't like pouring through the analytics it was just like oh man how did fuck the duncan wind up with like 22 and 12 already like and then i feel that way about tatum kind of where it's just like oh this guy's got i thought he was having an off night but he's got 24 you know like it's and it just kind of emerges out of the style of basketball that they play did they feel like the celtics i hate when things go well and then people start talking about what the what the mindset was and they definitely spilled the beans on some of the stuff. Like they want everybody to shoot and be able to switch on D is the

platonic idea of the Celtics team. And they basically, after they won the title, they're like, yeah, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to do this. And I just feel like teams are going to copy that now.

How do you copy it? I mean, go find Jalen Brown. Like it's hard to copy more and more shooters that come into the league every year. If I'm looking at the Spurs, what's the platonic ideal of a Spurs team? Somebody like Reed Shepard, who they have a chance to take it for,

who's an incredible shooter, but he's 6'1.5". Is that somebody that can switch on D? Is that somebody in the last two rounds of the playoffs? Would teams just hunt him? Or could he stand up for himself a little bit? Those are conversations you have to have now if you're the Spurs.

Do you just want switchable athletes who can shoot? Or are you trying to build like an old school basketball team? I don't know. And maybe the answer is, well, if you have Tatum and Brown, this is how you should play. I just feel like we're six weeks removed

from being like it's all about size it's height it's like you have to have somebody who's going to take Jokic you have to have somebody who's going to take Giannis

like that is going to be the question mark that follows this team around a little bit because they wound up playing a Dallas team that even though they had like the vertical threats

with Gafford and Lively it's not Jokic it wasn't you know like a Giannis I feel like they didn't have to, there was not a clash of styles in this

series. If you want a reason why the Celtics won this series, it's that they were overwhelmingly more talented than the Mavericks. If you want the secondary reason, it's that Jason Tatum can guard players like Daniel Gafford and guard players like Derek Lively for the most part and get away with it.

And so like if you have that guy, everything unlocks for you. If you have a small forward or power forward who's not as good at that stuff as Jason Tatum is not as good a rebounder as Jason Tatum is. I think you lose a lot of those battles. The crazy thing is I was actually thinking about this when he when he made his pretty valiant return to the floors. I was like, if Porzingis had been healthy this entire series, this might have been an all-time wipeout. The Soats had played the whole playoffs. I mean, Porzingis had played the whole playoffs.

Probably two of those games flip would be my guess. Could be. Because he was just... He would just have moments where he was the best guy on the floor for four minutes. You can't replace that. Early on in game five, there were times where like you would just see Luka or Kyrie get daylight and then they would see Porzingis and they would literally hit the brakes and turn around and look for somebody else to pass to.

Unbelievable job by him to play. I mean, he basically admitted after he really could have gotten hurt. And I think they were really scared to put him out there. But once Dallas did what they did in Game 4, you gotta do it. I mean, that actually was one of the more old-school, pure sports. Like, this guy really wants to play in the finals one more time.

Because you have to imagine the worst-case scenario for that would have been pretty bad. What a personality rehab by him. I know. This was... If you asked somebody even a year ago, what are your thoughts

on Kristaps Porzingis? You'd be like, loser! Good stats, bad team guy. Like, that would have been, can't stay on the court. Be a hornet

or be a wizard for the rest of his life. Yeah, it was hilarious when he got traded to the Wizards. All right, I have some more stuff for you guys. Do you feel like

we're doing the award stuff correctly for the whole season in the playoffs because now we added this conference finals mvp right which in some cases it could be a four game sweep and then it's like ah that guy had two good games all of a sudden he's forever etched in history and same thing for the finals which has gotten super goofy a couple times over the years where it's like tony park, the 2007 Finals MVP. And it's like, Tim Duncan's on the team.

He's the best guy in the world. I really, and I've said this, I've made the case forever. I really think we need a postseason big picture. Like in hockey, they have the con smite. Right, so the guy who's been the best in the playoffs. And the Panthers goalie is supposed to win it. I want to see the conmite for the playoffs. And to me,

that's so much more interesting than who the finals MVP was. So who would be the consmite of this playoffs? Well, I'm going to go further. Not only do I want the consmite, I want the... This doesn't even sound...

Consmite is not a real award, guys. That's not a real thing. What do we talk... I have no familiarity. What are we talking about? Consmite is like hockey. Okay. I've heard of that. It's the best player for the entire playoffs. And it's like what do we talk I have no familiar what are we talking about Consmite is like cocky okay I've heard of that

best player for the entire playoffs and it's like the most prestige they don't have a finals MVP they just have the consmite the consmite yeah and he was the guy

who was like you know what's good pucks yeah try those Consmite was like hey put those sticks

and curve them a little bit what's up boys you want to get beers after the game that was that guy okay he deserves an award well I think we have whatever the version sticks and curve them a little bit. What's up, boys? You want to get beers after the game? That was that guy. Okay. He deserves an award. Well, I think we have whatever the version of that is.

Plus, I would love to see a first team postseason. Oh, like an all-tournament team format. Why don't they have the all-tournament team? So that leads to my next question. Who's on your all-tournament team? Because you have Tatum and Brown and Luka, right? There's three.

Ant. Is Ant the fourth? Ant and Shea. Are we 100% sure Tatum and Brown both make it? Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah, I think so.

I think you have to have two guys for the winners. Is this an imaginary team that we've just made up? Since we're drafting this right now, is this a positionless team? Yeah, it's just the five best guys at the playoffs. Yeah. Luka's got to be on it. I think Tatum's got to be on it.

I think Brown has to be on it. Do you think it's a requirement that the players in the postseason team at least make it to the conference finals? That was one of my questions because I had Tatum, Brown, Luka, and Edwards as the four locks. Not Brunson. And then the,

well, Brunson played two rounds. He was so good though. So you could have him, you could have Kyrie, right? Who is the second best guy in a finals team. Sure.

You could go, I'm putting three people on this from the winner. I'll put Drew Holiday as my third. Just have three Celtics and then two.

Gosh, who would do that? Whatever. I don't know what the right strategy is. I know. You know what I know? It would be super fun to argue about. It would be fun. It would be fun to vote on.

You could talk me into having a first team, second team. But the whole point of this shit is create a snapshot of the season so I can look at it 50 years from now and be like, who are the five best guys in the playoffs? We don't have that now. The bright side of the MVP debate being so constant throughout the regular season is that it does force people to

consider you know the totality of the nba season yeah and you know when you're doing these like ladders or you're doing these straw pulls or whatever you kind of have a feeling of like oh wow this person is really like a clips this other player over the course of the season. But the problem with that is that like this, this was something that was almost like icing on a cake at the end of a season. And I kind of like what you're where you're going with this, but I do think it would be hard to make the argument

that Brunson who probably. Well, that's why we'll have a second team. Why not? Who's on the second team? All right. I'm going to say Kyrie's in the first team. Okay. You're saying Kyrie's... Tatum, Brown, Luka, Edwards, Kyrie, first team.

Kyrie over Brunson. Second team, Jokic, Brunson, Shea, Siakam, and Drew. Something like that. See, this is why this would be fun. Yeah. We'd have... We'd get entire podcast segments out of Siakam is not a second team.

Cons might... I'm going to start my Nemhard campaign. Right. I also would love like a year-long award. Like a calendar year 2024. Regular season and playoffs. Regular season playoffs. If it's a FIBA or Olympic year,

you factor that in. That's like Ballon d'Or and soccer. That's exactly what I'm looking for. It's like the international tournament and your club season gets combined pretty much. The problem is no one really looks to FIBA like that

to make these decisions. There's no governing body, which I guess is why it is incumbent on us to create it. So I did a lot of this work already way back when because in my book, I really wanted to have a playoffs MVP

because I thought it was so stupid. And for the most part, I would say three out of every four times it mirrors whatever happened with the finals. So the finals MVP would actually be the playoffs. It's like 70%, 75%. But then there's other times, you know, like in 1979,

like Gus Williams would have been the playoff MVP. DJ won the finals MVP because he had five games. It gets, there's some fun arguments that were like in 2018, if we had a playoffs MVP and LeBron was awesome. Oh yeah. That whole playoffs. Right.

Yeah. And then in the, he gets swept in the finals and KD wins finals MVP. And then it becomes, yeah, finals and KD wins finals MVP. And then it becomes, yeah, but LeBron, that team sucked. And we could have argued about that. This year, we could have argued about Tatum or Brown as the playoffs MVP.

It would have been one of those two. 2015, LeBron or Curry. 2014, Duncan or Kawhi. We could have argued about that. 2010, and by the way, you can look this up, Kobe or Gasol would have been a real argument for playoffs MVP because Gasol was awesome. Kobe would have taken about that. 2010, and by the way, you can look this up, Kobe or Gasol would have been a real argument for playoffs MVP because Gasol was awesome. Kobe would have taken that well, yeah.

Kobe would have been like, he wouldn't have posted MVP under Gasol. Pierce or KG in 08, 01, Shaq or Kobe was a real argument because Kobe was awesome that whole playoffs. Magic or Kareem 85. I could keep going and going, but I just think, why not?

I mean, the seal has been broken. If we started this podcast... If we're going to have the fucking conference finals MVP, we can have this. Yes. So do you want it in place of these things or in addition to these things? I want an add. So do you think that adding more of this stuff would make things less insane

on a day-to-day basis because you wouldn't be like... Because we wouldn't all be like, the finals MVP is almost more important than who wins the finals. To me, playoffs MVP is more important than finals MVP. And I would get, I honestly would get rid of conference finals MVP. I think it's so stupid.

That, like, instead of installing that, it should have just been a playoff. That just got introduced recently? Yeah, I would dump that. This is our second season doing it? Okay. I would dump that and do playoffs MVP and I would do

two teams, two postseason tournament teams. Rob really sparked up with the tournament. I'm into it. I'm on this. We would have real

arguments about people like Knicks fans who have been eliminated for a month and be like, Brunson's still first team. Oh,

they would be making Dante DiVincenzo cases. The Brunson stuff is a given. Just to keep spicing things up. Yeah. What if we cases. I don't, like, the Brunson stuff is a given. Just to keep spicing things up. Yeah. What if we did,

in two weeks, the, uh, the, like, in-season tournament champions versus the finals champions for, like, in Vegas at Summer League, Celtics-Lakers?

Oh, the Celtics, that's the last, last finals. They now have to beat the in-season. Let's, uh, let's take one more break. at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks,

and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like potash to support sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building one of the world's most sustainable potash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. This is what BHP has committed to Canada. The future is clear. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. I had one more Tatum thing I forgot to mention

that I came up with on the plane, probably because I only had like four hours sleep. My Matt Stafford versus Matt Ryan theory. Okay, you're going to need to explain this one to me too. It's like Tom Smythe, but it's a little bit different. Well, I was thinking on the plane that Matt Ryan got, he made the Atlanta Falcons ring of honor. Uh-huh.

Matt Ryan was a really good quarterback. He was the MVP one year. Brought the Falcons. They were up 28-3 in the playoffs. And then the Patriots came back and beat them. Yep. And he wasn't, they kind of needed like 8% more from him

in that game than he probably had. Whereas Matt Stafford on the Rams, who I think people probably thought they were around the same, like 8% more from him in that game than he probably had. Whereas Matt Stafford on the Rams, who I think people probably thought they were around the same, but then in the Super Bowl, in the playoffs, Matt Stafford just had a little bit more. And I was thinking like Tatum,

which I think people have trouble putting him in context then because he's not Giannis, he's not Jokic, but I think he's at that Matt Stafford level. And the question is, does he max out there at that Matt Stafford level and the question is, does he max out there? Because Matt Stafford,

going to go into the Hall of Fame, great career, was a Super Bowl winning QB and is that it or could he go up a little? He's not going to be Mahomes, but he's somewhere between Matt Stafford and Mahomes, right?

Does that make sense? No, I kind of like it because it's like, Matt Stafford, if he had played his entire career in a stable organization, he'd be a great offensive coordinator. Yeah, just getting the playoffs every year like Tatum. Has basically played under Brad Stevens or Joe Mazzullo

with Brad Stevens in the GM. I like that you put Joe in there. But I'm just saying, like, I mean, Mazzullo did change this team. He did. He's earned his inclusion. It's hard because I think Matt Stafford on the Falcons probably would have been better than Matt Ryan,

but I'm not so sure Matt Ryan couldn't have won a Super Bowl with Sean McVay as his OC and Aaron Donald on defense. Yeah, true. Tatum, three straight first-team OMSBAs, which is not nothing. No. One other thing with Tatum that I thought was really interesting because I had that 42 club that I was talking about.

We were just talking about this the other day. I came up as a way to basically discredit Karl Malone. And if for some reason 42 is the number. This is so fucking funny to me. 42 is the number

that somehow... It's not like you're saying the quiet part out loud about Karl Malone. It's not really good. I feel like you didn't always. You were like, 42, go look it up.

It's a really important number. And then you finally started just being like, I honestly just wanted to stick it to fucking Karl Mal malone i like the idea and then i had it at 40 and there was like seven carl malone season like uh and then i was like 41 it was like oh he still had five and then 42 he had none i was like that's the number yeah but it's interesting it really works and i mentioned because Tatum, who was 43 before the finals,

finished at 41. He finished at 25, 10, and 6. He didn't make it. But that's kind of what finals he had. That kind of mirrored what we saw. He wasn't quite. But meanwhile, Luka was 47.1. So he made it.

So the guys just from this century, LeBron six times, Shaq three times, Kobe once in 01, Iverson, your guy, 01. Makes sense. He was unbelievable that year. Duncan once, Kawhi once, 19.

Duncan only once, huh? Yeah. He wasn't that guy. You know, he was like, I'll do whatever we need. Giannis once, Jokic once. These are all for people

that made the finals, obviously. And then Luka. What I like about this is it, it kind of strings out Jokic once. These are all for people that made the finals, obviously. And then Luka. What I like about this is it kind of strings out the idea. Like, we think about all of these great players and it's like,

oh, they do this every single time, right? You expect a consistency from a Hall of Fame level superstar. And yet, even someone like Kobe, who is, you know,

an icon for so many players, especially in the league now, he has one of those runs. And didn't even do it in 09 and 10. Right. To just be able to get points, rebounds, and assists every game at a really high level. Yeah.

It's crazy. It's the most simple thing you can do in basketball. And it's really fucking hard. Well, Jokic seems like he's going to break this. Yeah. You know, 42 thing. He is predisposed. That's the market inefficiency on the 42 club.

He was like invented to own the 42. But you get 18 rebounds for two series at a time? Yes. It's just so crazy to happen again with Tatum. Because I looked it up. I was like, I bet he didn't make it. Because he just wasn't quite good enough in the finals. And there he did.

He missed it by a point. All right. We got to talk about Mavs. So, my first question. Because we had this with the Mavs. A five seed, 15-32. They took down the four seed clips, the one seed OKC, three seed wolves made the finals. Year before the heat 44 and 38 and eight seed took down the one seed Bucks, two seed Celts, five seed Knicks. And then even if you go back to

2020, the bubble heat were a five seed. 2018, the Cavs, 15-32, they were a four seed. And I think they were, what were they, like 29th in defense that year? At some point, like a really, a bad team for finals teams.

So that's now, one, two, three, four of our last seven finals. We've had a crash in the party team. Yeah. Is this what the league

is now? I think it is in terms of, especially in terms of the relationship teams have to the regular season, which, you know. So you think that ties together? Yeah, I think so.

I think that, I think teams are comfortable being mid-seeded and that that number one seed is kind of like, if it's in touching distance, sure, it's like a thing we want, but we're not going to like

blow our guys out in February to make sure that we get the top two seeds. So five seed is fine. Basically, we're not going to have home court advantage throughout the playoffs. We're fine with that. Look, Dallas is, I would say that there are historically some second half of the season juggernauts.

I think that Miami has had a couple of those seasons where it's like they come out of the all-star break and you're like, holy shit, what did they drink? You know, like, and they just rattle off

like one of those like 18 out of 25 runs and you're like, damn, like these guys got really good and even though their total record

maybe isn't that impressive, like what they've done in a certain amount of time suggests they're playing their best basketball going into the postseason. But that sounds more like the NFL.

It does. Where the team sucks after the season and they're 8-1. where they're just like, oh, into the postseason. But that sounds more like the NFL. It does. Where the team sucks after the season. Yeah, where you get a Ravens season where they're just like, oh, so these guys are going to start breaking people in half when it got cold. Like, that's what happens in football sometimes. There's also so much happening in an NBA season that we lose track of the fact that the Mavs basically weren't healthy until the trade deadline. And so, yes, it's huge that they got Washington and Gafford.

They also just didn't have their team. Yeah. And you could say the same thing about the Heat last season where Jimmy Butler is going to miss like 15 to 20 games every year. Bam is going to miss some games here and there. Tyler Hero is going to miss some games here and there. So we don't have a complete picture of what that team looks like. It's also worth

noting that all of the kind of crash the party teams you're talking about all lost. Do you think there's a relationship between crash the party and the ratings? Do you think that there's like a, wait a second, am I supposed to care about this? Like, I kind of

thought it was going to be this team and this team. I think it's different when it's LeBron James. Yeah. You know, I'm sure

that didn't hurt the ratings in 18 when it was Jimmy Butler and the Heat. Yeah. Slightly different. Now Jimmy's, I think, more famous than

maybe he was in 2020 and even 2023. But I don't know if he's as famous for like basketball. Like, you know, in 2020 and even 2023 but I don't know if he's famous for like basketball like you know he's a celebrity but I don't know if it's like hey I gotta watch Jimmy Butler tonight and then Luca I mean I'm sorry but a lot of people were discovering him during the finals like the those super casuals who kind of knew who he was but probably hadn't really watched them um we left out one thing. I think the league is just deeper. Yeah. And makes me wonder, like, you know,

when the league was super stacked from, I'm going to say, 88 to 93, even though MJ made it the three straight years with Chicago, Detroit made it the three years before. But then the West, it gets super goofy, right? There's a couple Portland years. There's a Phoenix year. There's a 91 Lakers year that comes out of nowhere.

Then you go to 94, 95, all of a sudden Houston's in there. Yeah. The second time they're in there, they're in there with a team that looked like they were dead at the all-star break. And the other side has Orlando in 95 and has the Knicks in 94. In 96, Seattle makes it. So we, this. This was more common

than what we had in the 2010s where we just had the Warriors versus Cleveland for half a decade. But the league being deeper with doing that top 100, it was like, I put Embiid ninth and I didn't feel good about it,

but I just couldn't put him any higher. Where'd you have Embiid? I think I ended up having him. I just couldn't put him higher higher. Where'd you have Embiid? I think I ended up having him... I just couldn't put him higher than ninth. It's like, the guy doesn't... We always get into an Embiid-Tatum conversation for that reason. I usually end up with him in that 5-6 range,

but it's hard with him, with Kawhi, with any of these guys who are injured a lot. Separating them from the really durable superstars is almost impossible. I care so much about the durability. I think it's okay for the top 100 to reflect the moment in time in which it was voted on. And we're voting at the end of the finals. And you can't ignore what we just saw.

Can I ask you this question without triggering you? Mm-hmm. I mean, Embiid's going to be 30 this year. Yeah. He hasn't had a memorable playoff moment yet. Like, when can we stop saying that he's a top six guy? I mean, when he stops, he scored 70 fucking points in a game.

It's great. I know he did. Cool. At some point, don't you have to do something in the two months that actually matter in the league? I reflected that in my voting. I reflected that. I think people still feel like

he's the fifth best guy in the league. It's like at some point, the playoffs have to factor in. Well, it's like when he plays, he might be a top three guy in the league. Cool. So we do with that what we will. You just won a championship.

What do we do? I just... I feel the same about Kawhi. I agree on paper. Yeah. Kawhi's really good. He's been hurt every single year

since 2019. 2019 is now five years ago. Yes. At one point... I think that there are different conversations. I think Embiid has had very bad luck with injuries

at the certain time that they happen. I think Kawhi has, like... It's obviously... Is the knee stuff bad luck with Embiid at this that they happen. I think Kawhi has like, it's, it's obviously. Is the knee stuff bad luck with Embiid at this point though? Because he's had a lot of structural stuff. Think about where Embiid started from,

where people were like, he may or may not play basketball. Yeah. Like coming out of Kansas. And it was like, he's going to have to take a red shirt year. Yeah. I don't like,

there's the back, there's the knee, there's all this stuff. And it's like, given where people's expectations were with him coming into the league, this has been like the best, one of the best possible scenarios And it's like, given where people's expectations were with him coming into the league, this has been like the best, one of the best possible scenarios,

I think. He's also had like a lot of freak stuff. There's the chronic big man lower body thing. And then there's the face. I think the contrast with Kawhi is, Kawhi is a stone cold killer when he gets there. You get him on the floor, he's going to have some

all-time playoff performances. Embiid, we're still waiting for some of those. And so there's the double question of, is he going to be healthy? And is he going to level up his game in a way that we're all waiting for him to do? And I also think Embiid has to learn seven or eight new players every season because the Sixers have a really high turnover model

of their roster building right now. It's like the Celtics don't. If you had to say one guy outside of the top 10 crashes the party in the next nine months and I gave you the trip, I put Wemby 10th, by the way. Okay.

That's the answer. I just already... I'm not making another list with him and not in the top 10. Okay. That's where I am. But would you say, if I gave you Donovan Mitchell

Devin Booker Paolo Zion can I can I ask a clarifying question how is Paolo getting in this

conference all due respect how is he getting in this conversation I'm saying a year from now if you had to pick like somebody that you wouldn't expect

to crash the party like what Anthony Edwards did this year okay who is pick somebody that you wouldn't expect to crash the party, like what Anthony Edwards did this year. Okay, okay. Who is the guy that you could see all of a sudden? Depends on the team. So I'll just give you a bunch, right? Mitchell. I think Booker is reasonable to expect.

He's kind of always on the borderline of that. Where did you have Brunson? I had him sixth. I don't blame you. I thought he was incredible. Okay. I just... So you had Brunson above Embiid.

Yeah. You know, I could beat him in a playoff series. Yeah, sure. He had a better season. I'm sorry. I'm a results guy CR but Wemby

and Yama I just think Wemby and Yama just we know what's going to happen next year that guy's going to be he's going to be playing

with a bunch of G League guys and they're going to win 30 games he also swung the finals this year because he somehow beat Denver with Devante Graham

and a bunch of 10 day guys if I can change the parameters to two years, I would not be surprised if Chet Holmgren is knocking on the door of the top 10 in two years. There we go. That's good. I could see him having

a young Anthony Davis kind of trajectory. Well, if that happens, OKC's winning a title before the end of the decade. They might well. Because then you would have... Because that's one of the things I was looking at with... Like, who's the next crash-the-party team? Which then ties into a whole...

All right, we'll look at the finals odds. And I don't think... Anybody that has odds better than, like, 16... There's eight teams right now that have odds between 3-1 and 16 to one Boston, Denver, Minnesota, Mavs, Milwaukee, OKC, Philly, Knicks. I'm taking them off the board. It jumps to 30 to one. And then we go Clippers 30 to one, Miami 30 to one, Phoenix 35 to one, Golden State 35 to-1 Lakers 40-1 Indy 50-1 Memphis 50-1 This is all on Fandle New Orleans 50-1

Cleveland 50-1 Sacramento 55-1 Orlando 80-1 Atlanta 100-1 Houston 150-1 I mean in terms of odds Me ripping those off What jumped out? I mean, in terms of odds, as me ripping those off, what jumped out? I don't think

any of those Eastern Conference teams have a chance to beat Boston and get to the finals. I think the parity would be a conference final. Is a conference final good enough to crash the party, or do you have to make it all the way to the finals? Because that's where the East and West are so different. I could be convinced that a lot of Western Conference teams

could make it through. There may be five or six teams in the West that could be finalists next year. In the East, I think there's maybe three. And one of them is the Celtics. I mean, I think the Celtics, the Sixers, we just have to see if they're going to change so much potentially about their roster. And you have to treat Milwaukee seriously. I have

Milwaukee second in my head. Philly, they have three players. Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of So I'm like, who are you getting? A lot of this stuff is like, is Paul George on the magic? That changes things. It changes a lot. I probably feel the best for Milwaukee is the second team in the East.

Just having Giannis by default puts you in that conversation. Everyone else is a TBD. Cleveland, we don't know who their coach is or if they're going to make a trade. Miami, we have no idea how that's going to play out going down the line. I thought the two that jumped out to me were Memphis at 50 to 1. That's a really interesting one.

And Cleveland at 50 to 1. Because even that top 100 exercise we did, I had four Cavs in the top 60. I had Mitchell at 15. That's at least a recipe. But do they hate each other? I don't even know. We don't know.

Or even do they not, but they just can't even know right we don't know or even do they not but they just like can't really do it together or maybe their coach sucked is Ja come back in his top 10 well so if Ja comes back

and he's a top 12 guy they also have Jackson and Bain who are both top 55 they have the 9th pick in the draft they lost half their team

they bring Brandon Clark back they bring Marcus Smart back yeah they have Jackson and Vince Williams and Zyra Williams. They have a lot of young guys that got time.

They have a $12 million, $13 million trade exception, I think. Yeah, but they get, they're like, it's not inconceivable to be there. They were going to be

the thunder. They were that thunder. Like, wow, they have so much flexibility. All these pieces, they can make a trade or they could just go with their kids.

And now it's like like if Ja comes back and it's like it's all sealed up man like I think that would be my crash the party team they're the elephant in the room

in the west for sure I think a lot of people are just forgetting about their existence but I agree and you forget about the fact can you imagine like that fan base

is going to be like when he's back you know like they have been out of it for like two years like in suspended animation waiting for the how did he get he was probably one of the seven best guys in the league i think right point he was making an i think like a fun to talk about mvp push when this all happened classic like on the ballot like in the conversation is he second female m team on big guy? Now we got to look. What are the fan dual odds on Gigi Jackson

for finals MVP? Can we get in on that early? I'm going to, I'm going to look that up. Yeah. Ja was second team on BA in 22. And then he was,

yeah, that was his figure. Yeah. Memphis jumped out to me because you can see the moves, especially like if they use that number nine pick to try to get one more awesome guy.

And I was like, wait, what's their team? They're also a path for another five or six seed in the West to make the finals. Because Memphis could easily be the two or three seed next season. With riding the best guy, Josh is having an amazing comeback redemption year. Cleveland jumped out to me

because of the four top 60 guys. The new coach. What if Borrego is just a big upgrade? They got to retool that bench a little bit. What if they trade Jared Allen and just make Mobley their center and turn Jared Allen into one more good wing and go that

route and just the team clicks better? Yeah, and what if Jared Allen goes to the Thunder and turns into... You got to be careful not to Drew Holiday yourself on that, I think. Can we at least talk for one second about Houston at 151? I would love to. Whose team is that? Do you think that they...

It's like the Sangoon team? Because didn't they have like a run after Sangoon got hurt? This is kind of the issue with them is they looked pretty good after he got hurt. Jalen Green looked great, obviously. That was kind of the issue with them is they looked pretty good after he got hurt. Jalen Green looked great, obviously. That was kind of the big top line story. But also, Amin Thompson, who can't shoot at all,

only really looks comfortable if you have a true stretch big like Jabari is next to him. And you let him kind of play a guard version of the 4-5. And so, can you put your most talented players on the floor on a consistent basis

and win with what you got? I'm not entirely sure. And then Van Vliet and Dylan Brooks. I'm going to read you all their assets. Van Vliet, Jalen Green, Jabari Smith, who I really like, who I think could be in a playoff series in a real way. I'm always like Jabari Smith, 97.

I'm always like keeping him right in there. We got to release the tapes on the Jabari Smith voting for top 100. There's some erratic entries. That was the longest conversation of their first vote. I was just like, look, man,

he looked incredible in Summer League. Dylan Brooks, Shangoon, they have Stephen Adams as an expiring. They do. They have the number three

pick in the draft, Cam Whitmore, Ahmed Thompson, and they can do the $12.9 million free agent exception. Do they have, they can do the 12.9 million free agent exception. There's moves where Do they have too many guys?

Tari Eason coming back from injury too. Tari Eason. Yeah. There's moves where like they could just tomorrow trade Jalen Green for Mikael Bridges.

Yeah. Right? Or they could trade the number three pick and Jalen Green for one of the best 20 guys in the league. Like I'm kind of prepared

for anything with them. Yeah. And I thought the 150-1 was too high. I'm not saying they're going to win the title, but they might be two moves away from being something. It's true, but to Rob's point, I think they may have to decide, like, how this is all going to work. Because, like, I don't know if you can do

Sangoon as Jokic Jr. and we're going to run everything through his amazing passing. But that might screw up. Or would they trade Sangoon? That could be in play too. I think this is the most interesting summer team to me. Maybe they're an upside team

for that reason because they do have soul searching to do so you can't get ahead of it. But once they do figure it out, they could rise really fast. That sort of lower playoff play-in area of the West is so crazy because not only do you have

legacy teams like the Lakers and the Warriors, but you've got the Kings, you've got the Pelicans, all these teams that are like, man, if that guy played or if this thing happens, you'd be like... I mean, there were moments last year

where I was just like, is Zion a top 10 guy? Is this going to happen now? It's like, if he doesn't hurt his hamstring, I don't know what they do. And could the Spurs get to 40 wins? Whenever the Jazz decide they want to be a competitive team, they're going to be in that mix. This is why we spend a lot of time talking about the Lakers and the Warriors and what they're going to do. Those are playing teams in a really crowded conference that are going to have a hard time.

Notice I didn't bring either of them up. Like bumping up higher is going to be tough for teams like that that are on to have a hard time. Notice I didn't bring either of them up. Like bumping up higher is going to be tough for teams like that that are on the older side of things. The only fun, the way the Warriors become involved in

conversations is if they just fucking lost it and like traded for Jimmy Butler. Like or just made crazy moves. Like trading, they could trade

Chris Paul for like another week. That's the one fun trade pace. Right. So they could do, you know, Kaminga, Chris Paul, all their picks and try to get somebody.

It does seem like they're in this tough spot where it can't just be pleasant. It can't be like, man, these guys, they all stuck together. And yeah, they only won like 45 games a season going forward, but it was cool. It's like, this is going to get ugly one way or the other.

It's either like Klay's going to leave or they're going to re-sign Klay and it's going to be awkward. You know what I mean? Like, I don't really see a world in which... Well, now that Draymond's turned into such a stable veteran force, I think it's probably going to be fine.

Can I say one thing about this, Wes, though? You know, we talk about specifically the luxury tax apron and the second apron. Teams are really aware of it right now and kind of what the penalties that will come with it are. The one thing to watch is if you are a second apron team at the end of this upcoming season, it's going to freeze your first round pick seven years out. And so I wouldn't be surprised if we see these teams who are second apron teams are likely to be the Warriors, the Clippers,

Suns are in that group. Celtics are in that group. but I think in the East, there's a little less urgency. That's the thing. T-Wolves are in that group. Fuck it. Yeah. Like, trade this pick while you can before it gets frozen, and then all of a sudden, you have, like, one more asset to play with now. This year's offseason, this upcoming deadline, then you would have their way. And this isn't panic. Like, remember when

it was like, I can't believe you gave Evan Turner that contract, and then the cap went up, and it was like the contract was okay? Yeah. Like, will that happen with the second apron stuff? Or am I... Because everybody's like,

second apron, second apron. Yeah, everyone is really wary about it. You say that, but the one thing we've learned over the course of NBA history

is teams can't fucking help themselves. They just can't. Yeah. They'll be like, wait, how much cap do we have? Wait, we get rid of one guy and now I can sign DeMar DeRozan? are getting any more sane or poorer? No, they're fucking lunatics. The'd be like, wait, how much cap do we have? Wait, we get rid of one guy and now I can sign DeMar DeRozan?

Are getting any more sane or poorer? No, they're fucking lunatics. The demographics are changing, but they're all still equally loony. Let's take one more break. Think about something you're good at. Now think about how you got there. Chances are you had someone to help you get started. If you're thinking about starting to invest, Questrade's award-winning support team is here to help you

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Feel more confident about your financial future. Dynamic Funds. Invest with advice. Visit dynamic.ca slash advice to learn more. All right, one more Mavs thing. Could that have been Dallas' one big chance? Could be. Because you just talked about how good the West was.

I'm not really positive what Dallas' move is because they made all their moves. They traded all their assets. So basically their one big move would have to be, and by the way, I would not rule this out because I was really impressed by him in the Dallas games, but could Derek Lively become a guy? I think he's already a guy.

No, I'm saying like a guy. Capital. Could he become a third star? Tyson Chandler who can pass. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is in play. I just don't know if you're getting that Kyrie season again

at the same level. And also, like, I'd be alarmed that against OKC and against Boston, Kyrie was bad. Kyrie was bad in the Boston games. I thought Kyrie was bad in the series except for Game 4. They got to the finals. So, like, there were nights where it was like

I think he was definitely deferential. And there might have been nights when he was bad in the series except for game four. They got to the finals. So like whatever he was, there were nights where it was like I think he was definitely deferential and there might have been nights when he was bad but like whatever he was doing it worked. I think he's also broadened out his game

to the point, Boston is a bad example. It's a really tough matchup for him and just clearly some kind of mental funk playing in that building that he needs to

figure his way through. He's found ways to impact the game without just being the scorer whose turn, like when the ball comes to him he takes over. I think he's done well to impact the game without just being the scorer whose turn, like when the ball comes to him, he takes over. I think he's done well off the ball.

I think he's been better as a defender. I think he's been better kind of fitting into a team concept, even around someone like Luka who can be challenging to play with if you don't know how to do it. So I think even the games where he came up with 12 to 16 points,

some of those were really good games. The OKC series especially. That's a perfect example. So I would say Lively making a jump. That's the one. And then how about Luka being healthier? I don't know. We don't need to talk about the being in shape thing.

He definitely 100% was not healthy in that thing. And I saw him in two Clipper games in person. I saw it was at every finals game. Clipper games in person. I saw him, he was at every finals game. That dude was not healthy. He learned to play at a certain pace. And I thought all the shit he took, yeah,

he wasn't good on defense. He hasn't been good on defense his whole career. He's going to take a lot of contact because that's his game. Like every single game, he had the Curt Schilling sock going with the blood coming out of his knee and stuff like that.

Like that's his game. And I think also like, for a guy like that, Like that's his game. And I think also like I, for a guy like that, I think that it kind of, it's kind of like playing on the edge is what gives him his juice. So it's like, I almost wonder whether or not like,

yeah, you know, you have to find your joy playing basketball, but like maybe screaming at refs is what fires him up and keeps him in this psycho zone. You know what I mean? You got to find your rage playing basketball. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I kind of think that like, if I'm Dallas, I'm pretty psyched with how all this played out. You know? Like, yeah, you didn't see what happened against Denver. But like, I would not.

Well, they're gonna lose Derrick Jones. Even if they were in four, the four or five seed next season, I would still be like, I'm keeping my eye on Dallas. Yeah. Yeah. They've earned that.

Especially if Luka comes in 15 pounds lighter and he's like, my knee is now 100%. Yeah. Like, that's just gonna be a different team. I don't know how they're gonna

keep Derek Jones. Is he playing the Olympics? Luka, my guess would be, I think he's hurt. Like, I actually think he's arthroscopic surgery hurt. He seemed pretty dinged up. Yeah.

He wasn't right. You could see it. And I think the Celtics knew that the whole time and that was one of the reasons they were going at him because you look at the way he would play in the first half

versus the second half. He didn't seem like he had his legs in the same way with his three-point shot. His three-point shot was bad. Well, there were points in the Thunder series

where I was like, Luke is dead. Game one. He is getting slammed on the ground. He's barely getting up and then he's like kind of like

limping up the court and then like against against the wolves he looked like fucking Superman so I don't really know

what to say he's tough to gauge in that way but yeah and Vita's like that too where you're like oh he just blew his knee out and then it's like

oh no and he falls down yeah five times yeah yeah Luka's six years 22 conference finals, 2024 finals. This is a really good career.

If you said, if I asked you, Luka is definitely going to win a championship or Luka will never win a championship, which one would you pick? I think he's going to... This is now a get-up segment. Yeah, no, we were talking about this on...

You have to pick one or the other. We had one and a half titles for Lucas over under. We did this at Group Chat Live last night. One and a half. And I smashed the under. I would go under. I think he gets one, though. I think it's the one.

I feel like... He feels like the kind of player who will win at some point, who will break through, but might need some things to break his way, even if that's just the conference kind of clearing out for him a little bit over time. Yeah. The best guys ever who didn't win a title, Charles Barkley, Carl Malone.

I'm putting Elgin Baylor on there, even though he got a ring. He retired during that 72 Lakers thing. I think he counts. Ewing, James Harden, Steve Nash, George Girvin, Chris Paul, Stockton, Iverson. See, you list all those players. Luka's better than all those guys. That's my thought. He is a better player.

And by the way, I love Barkley, but Luka's slightly better than Barkley. I'm having a brain aneurysm trying to understand Luka over Iverson right now. Right. Yeah, but I mean, so that's the thing. If he doesn't win a title, he goes in that group

and it would feel like he's the best guy in that group from what we've seen so far. I think that this is a real building block. I think that they are like, okay, you know, conference final, finals. It didn't go our way, but that's like a really weird game three away from maybe this being much more competitive.

Yeah. And they can build off of that. And I think that they can go into any series pretty much with few exceptions being like, we've got the best guy. I thought their team stunk in the finals for what they were capable of. Like, you just go through it.

PJ sucked. He couldn't hit a three. Derek Jones couldn't hit a three. Kleba almost looked like his shoulder was broken. Yeah, I think he... He couldn't make anything. Lively sucked in the Boston games. Like, he going down the line, like...

And then I thought Kidd coached a bad series. Like, I thought Exum should have played a bunch. We were scared of Exum. It took him a long time to figure out games like you going down the line like and then i thought kid coached a bad series like i thought exum should have played a bunch we were scared to exum it took him a long time to figure out who should be playing in game five yeah he was like grabbing for straws and on the one hand it's like oh j kid widely play a federer and figuring out it's like on the other hand it's you play guys yeah yeah play exum he's tall and athletic and can create and didn't seem scared. It's also like it's easy to easy is strong.

Usually the guy who coaches a good series is the guy who has all the options. Yeah, right. And the Celtics have all the options. It's only like Spoh

really that we're like, oh, he might have gotten his ass kicked, but look at all the stuff he did. You know, it's just like, well, yeah. Yeah.

Where do you have Kyrie overrated, properly rated, underrated? I think we've arrived at properly rated, underrated? I think we've arrived at properly rated through perhaps rose-tinted glasses, right? Like, I think we've...

This is a warm and fuzzy moment in the Kyrie Irving story. Like, we got out of this entire finals without a massive controversy. And also, you seem like you're in a better place. And every once in a while, you just do something I've only seen two dudes do on a basketball court in my life.

I think properly rated. And honestly, I think he's been properly rated this whole time. I think we were rightly down on him. I think he has changed a ton of things about how he does his job and what kind of teammate he is and who he is in the ecosystem of a franchise.

And those are huge, meaningful things. Several people have brought up the similarities between the Kyrie-Luka pairing and the Kyrie-LeBron pairing in Cleveland. And it did make me think a little bit about the player empowerment era or the superstar movement era and the super team era and how infrequently those super teams actually fit together as pieces. Phoenix is a great example of this where it's like, nobody there really knows like what they're supposed to be doing. You know what I mean? And it'll be really interesting to see bud coaching those guys and whether

or not it all clicks together because buttonholes was a really good coach or if it's continues to be like three guys playing completely separate basketball games from one another. But like Kyrie found the partner he needed after years of wandering around looking for it. And it'll be interesting to see if it continues. It's like when you found Greenwald. That's right.

Are you the Kyrie or are you the Luca? It doesn't matter. Yeah, we don't talk about 1A, 1B with the watch. I have Kyrie as overrated. Currently overrated. What a shock. Yeah. What am I, Kyrie Basher? currently overrated what a shock yeah what a shock what am I

Kyrie Basher no you have a history yeah I talked to Jackie McMullen about this but it was great to see her and she put it

perfectly the the players the stuff Kyrie does the players are the most impressed by it because they know how hard it is so when and there's a lot of ex-players on podcasts the stuff Kyrie does, the players are the most impressed by it. They love it. Because they know how hard it is.

And there's a lot of ex-players on podcasts, on TV shows, and they all are glass half full completely on Kyrie. Who was it that called him the most, I think LeBron said he's the most skilled player in the history of the game. I think Jeff T. gave him the Conn Smythe award.

Yeah. A bunch of people say stuff like that, though. Perk does the whole, he's the most skilled offensive player ever. Kyrie's been 22 points a game in the playoffs for like seven years. Like his last 44 games, he's 22 points a game,

he's 45% shooting, but it's always a loud 22. And I thought in this series, I just thought the Celtics were pretty easily able to control. Yeah. He took 20 shots a game and he didn't, you know, 19.8 shots a game,

19.8 points a game. And a lot of hero ball stuff, a lot of stuff down the stretch that they were just easily able to stop and make them take bad shots. Game three, Luca fouls out. That was kind of the moment for him. But that was so chaotic.

That was a moment, though. It's like, all right, if Kyrie is really the most skilled offensive player ever, and as good as everyone says, like, okay, let's see it. This is the time. This is why teams do not build around undersized guards. It's true. I think that moment showed the limitations of his shot making. And so did really the Celtics series more broadly.

Really good when you can kind of put him off to the side playing off of a greater Luka. You can be a guy, but if five guys are like, absolutely not, you are not like... If every possession lives and dies on you working a high pick and roll in the way Luka does, your team will fail. And that's fine.

Not many guys can do that. Where'd you have him in top 100? I had him 23rd. I think I ended up a little higher than that, but roughly that range. I remember I ended up with him, like Jamal Murray, Dame, like that kind of peer group, which is not a bad place to be.

He's played himself back into that group. But the way people were talking about him as an all-time incredible, I don't think he's the guy that he was in 16 and 17 anymore. And the stats back it up. He was more explosive. He was a better shooter. He was 27 to 30 plus every playoff game.

And he's just not that guy anymore. I mean, who among us is the same guy we were in 26? We've seen some shit, though. I just was surprised that Glass had full with him. You don't care about Kyrie either right? Like what did you think agnostically

watching it? Yeah I just I mean I think he's capable of like dazzling moments and I think within the context of that team like he was very effective

like there has to be some knock on effect from the way Kyrie chose to play in the way that Gafford and Lively and Washington improved over the course of

the playoffs. But when it got to, do you have the two best guys in the series and people were making that point in a real like serious way? Like that's why I was like, holy shit. Yeah.

What are you guys fucking doing? They went 15 and 32 during the season and then won some playoffs. But I don't think it's fair to be like, Kyrie didn't single-handedly beat the Celtics in game three when they came all the way back. I agree. Instead of being like, Luka fucked that up by not getting his head on his shoulders.

He did. I'm just saying that that was a moment for Kyrie. Okay. That maybe you come through there and you win that game. Yeah, but it was more of a moment where it was like, hey. It was an opportunity that lapsed him to a different place. But this is a hugely successful playoff run for Luka, even though he's gotten a lot of criticism. For Kyrie, even though we've gotten a lot of criticism for Kyrie,

even though we've seen some of his limitations. And Lively. For all these guys. And Lively, I think, was the other. They clearly have something really special.

And they did this in a point where, like, wasn't it a mid-season ownership transfer? I mean, like, the amount of stuff going on behind the scenes. Like, it's crazy. Heard some fun stuff

about that. Do we have a conspiracy podcast? Oh, I had a good one last night. For me to talk about the Karen Rue trial and Cuban sale. Can I just say it? We can cut this out, but I had a good one.

What? LeBron to Dallas into the Derrick Jones Jr. slot. And then Miriam Adelson breaks him off something in Vegas for the expansion team and gives him a hotel. Just gives him a casino?

Down the line. So he signs to Dallas for like a minute. Oh, that's a good one. Why do we have to break that out? That's great. I had this for you later. This is my dream. The Celtics have the 30th draft pick.

Take Bronny. Yeah. So here's my case, Rob. You think LeBron's coming to the Celtics? Aren't you glad he said Rob? Hit me with it. Everyone says this draft sucks. The Celtics are so deep. They have guys like

Walsh can't get on the court, right? Who would probably be, if he entered this draft, he would probably be in that 30 to 40 range anyway. Anyone in this draft isn't going to play for them. It'll probably be a stash guy. They're going to have to carry the salary. Why not take

Bronny and you basically hold him hostage? Because all these other teams want him, right? That's not toxic at all. No, no, no. I'm saying like for the asset. Oh, the Lakers, you want him? Well, we took Bronny. Give us Max Christie. How bad do you want him? I would say Bron like for the asset. Oh, the Lakers, you want him? Well, we took Bronny. Give us Max Christie.

How bad do you want him? Yeah. I would say Bronny, the asset at 30 is a trade thing. Yeah. Is worth more than anyone they could get there. It's good to see you. You know, you got, you won the finals. And this is our fuck you moment.

This has been like saying, I just went for our girl. I'm going to be Batman. We put in the title. Now we're taking Brian James. You're so fucking Boston right now. Only a fucking guy

from Boston. LeBron beat us in our last four playoff series against him. We're taking your son. The green and white confetti is coming down. Jason Tatum is holding his son.

My father is next to me. I love him. And you're like, you know what we should do is draft LeBron's fucking son. Yeah. Trying to rip an American family apart. Come play with us,

LeBron. We have your son. It's like taken. We have your son, LeBron. It's truly deranged behavior. But whatever he's worth to the team that ultimately wants to keep LeBron

or sign LeBron is worth more than the 30th pick. Can I show you the alternate future version of that where those teams don't bite and then Bronny

is on the Celtics and literally every day people are asking Joe Mazzulla when is Bronny going to get the call up from the main Red Claws? Yeah, that's pretty good.

And Joe Mazz is like, did you call God today? That's a better question. Have you seen The Departed? Well, Rich Paul said that he is going to not do a two-way contract.

He said that, yes. So that's another reason. I thought that... So if it's an asset, I don't know. I just thought it was a fun idea because the reason I thought of it was because today, Kyle and Tate, Kyle Mann and Tate and KOC, they were texting me about some dude who was projected to be at the Celtics pick at 30. It was some French guy who I've never heard of who's averaging 6.8 points a game.

It's a very French draft. And I was like, really? That's who we're going to take? I would just rather have Broddy James. But I had been thinking about this for a while. Like, it's actually like the Mac Daddy move. Take him as a trade asset. This is great because I was nervous about introducing the idea of Miriam Adelson buying

Clutch Casino. And I was like, hold back here. He immediately blew it out. Literally holding LeBron's son for ransom. Well, he's entering the draft. You enter the draft. All 30 teams are available to take you. This is almost literally the plot of Celtics Pride, isn't it?

Bill just wants to make a video where LeBron is going, give me back my son! Could we get Max Christie from the Lakers if we took Ronnie James at 30? No, this isn't going to happen. Why not? I don't think so.

Because Brad Stevens is going to take the French guy. And let me remind you, you guys have been picking towards the end of the first round ever since the Tatum thing. And you're always just like, I can't believe we didn't get Thibault

or, you know, like, Neesmith. I hear a lot of good things. It doesn't matter. Because you're just fucking doing Brown. Speaking of the Lakers, because it's day two after the title, everyone's having better franchise Lakers versus Celtics combos. Are they? Yeah. I saw it on two shows today.

I was having coffee. All time? So, the actual titles battle is Celtics 18, Lakers allegedly 17. Because the Lakers count their five titles they won in Minneapolis. Correct, yeah. Before the shot clock existed.

Which they only acknowledged in one banner, but somehow count all the five titles. Post Bill Russell titles since 1970,-Bill Russell titles since 1970. Lakers have 12 since 1970. Celtics 7, Bulls 6, Spurs 5, Warriors 4. Do you count the Minnesota titles, Rob? Yes, their titles. How else am I supposed to delineate

when does time start? I'm going to give you some titles just to ask if these count for the cities the 1979 Seattle Supersonics does OKC get to count that title I think they technically do but they have respectfully chosen not to of like

you mean like how the LA Lakers have respectfully not chosen did the Lakers steal the team like yeah okay well they the guy moved it from Minneapolis to the Lakers Minneapolis didn't have basketball for 30 years after that what

should have happened is when they got the expansion team they should have gotten the history here's my here's my twist to this I do think you should be able to count the titles from your old city. But that old city should get to have a parade

when you win a title. Oh, I like that. Oh, interesting. So they should have a parade in Minnesota. Like next time the Lakers win, there should be like a Minnesota parade.

Well, I'll ask you, CR. Uh-huh. The 55 Syracuse Nationals. Do you count that one? Yeah, where were you for that series, Chris? Syracuse Nationals. Do you count that one? Yeah, where were you for that series, Chris? Syracuse Nationals was what? 1955.

That counts as a Philadelphia 76ers title. Name a guy on Syracuse Nationals. I'm just saying that counts as a title for you, apparently. I mean, yeah. I'll give you another one. The 1951 Rochester Royals. The Sacramento Kings get to count that as a title, even though they moved three times since that happened.

Is there any Boston stuff or is all Boston? It's just been Boston. Boston original franchise. The only one, I did this like six years ago for a video mailbag about if it's more than 150 miles away from where you play now, you have to drop it. Right.

So the Baltimore Bullets in 48 won the title and eventually they moved to Washington. I think I'm okay with that one. Baltimore-Washington, that's like what, a 50-minute car ride? It's regional. And then the New York Nets won in Long Island in 74 and 76 ABA.

Moved to Brooklyn event. Cheers in then Brooklyn. I'm okay with that. Okay. That sounds like a title. This is like watching someone win an election and then gerrymander

all the districts so they can never lose again. That's what we're watching in real time. Because the Laker fans are still claiming they won 17. Yeah.

And I just, I just don't see it. I don't understand how they count the Minneapolis ones. Well, you have more than them now. I don't personally understand it. Okay.'t understand how they count the Minneapolis ones. Well, you have more than them now. I don't personally understand it. Okay. Like, would you care if like the Denver Eagles

won the Super Bowl in 1970? No, because I would never cheer for the Eagles again if they left Philadelphia. I wouldn't be like, I don't, I mean, I don't think if historically the Denver Eagles started and they were like, and we also have this Eagles Super Bowl, I'd probably be salty about it, but I don't know that I would be able to do anything about it.

Like, do you think that... Like, there's two different things happening here. You want it to be definitive that the Celtics are the better franchise. This was a topic for the last 24 hours, Lakers versus Celtics. Well, here's the reality. It may not be an issue

because I think it's going to be a minute before the Lakers are actual championship contenders again. And the Celtics are really good here's the reality. It may not be an issue because I think it's going to be a minute before the Lakers are actual championship contenders again. And the Celtics are really good right in this second. I can't count the Lakers out ever just because of their history of just landing superstars when you least expect it. That's true. Like, could they

flip LeBron for Paul George in three weeks? Yeah, but what would that do? And then the Clippers will have Bronny. No, I know, but it's just, you just never know with them. Yeah. Like, everything's in play with them at all times because so many people,

you know, I think they're, the Celtics are the most famous franchise in the league, but the Lakers have probably been, you know, in the mix more consistently than the Celtics. The Celtics from... I don't think that the...

93 to... I think that the Lakers are a more renowned franchise than the Celtics. Don't you? What do you think, Rob? I'm not going to answer that. What does renowned mean?

I don't know. If you close your eyes and think of the NBA, what's the first team you think of? I would think it would be the Lakers. I think they're probably the most internationally famous. And some of it is some of the more recent star power, too. Even just like Kobe versus Garnett and Pierce. Those are different levels

of iconography that I think register differently with people. The Shaq-Kobe era swings it a little bit because that's basketball's getting bigger after Jordan

and then they have this whole relevant decade where they win five titles. They've also probably had lower lows to be honest. Like the bad Lakers seasons are real bad

but they do bounce back. Yeah, even you think like from 12 to today, like they made the one finals that they won in the bubble, which they didn't even get to celebrate here. And they made a conference finals. But other than that,

it was like lottery, lottery. They had the second pick in the draft. The whole baby Lakers era. Yeah. Yeah. I think I have everything. Yeah. That's it.

Did you want to talk about basketball everyday talk culture? That was the last one you had for us. I think I have an answer for it. I think the videos have gotten really good now with the 60 to 90 second clips that you can just watch. You're talking about the clips

on the Ringer YouTube channel? No, on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, wherever you find this stuff, that these little instant debate argument things are just the best they've ever been and that's why I feel

so omnipresent now feels like every day there's some sort of massive thing happening and it's not really that massive you just move on

to the next thing so you mean best in terms of like effective or it's getting it's getting at some interesting talking point well just it's just cutting to the

core of some sort of something. Yeah. Whereas I just don't think we were doing that even 10 years ago. When we were doing Grantland, it didn't exist like that. It just felt way more big picture. Basketball Twitter was sort of emergent. I brought this up because you had mentioned

you were just like, is this the sort of where are we at with everyday basketball media culture and stuff like that? I did think about when we started Grantland, NBA Twitter was kind of emerging right around then. It was people live tweeting

games. You would look at your Twitter feed and it would just be like, whoa. You would know what they were talking about. You was like you were following 600 people and 550 of them were tweeting about the Knicks that night. But I was thinking back to when I first started writing about basketball just for fun on a blog in 2003 or 2004.

And that was a dark time for the league. That was not a very popular moment for the NBA. That used to be when, like, a very, like, like, popular moment for the NBA. That used to be when I made the jokes about how I was one of the only 20 fans left. Right.

And that was a lot of David Kahn stuff. Which was like a half joke. Yeah. Before that, that was like our test melee. Yeah. People were bored

by the Spurs. The NBA dress code. Yeah, it was like... The scores were down. I was really into, like, the Carmelo Nuggets. Kobe trial wasn't a blast. Yeah.

It was a lot of bad stuff. But in that kind of moment, I think that there was just a lot more space to just have your own personal passions and obsessions with the NBA. You could get into a weird bad player and you'd be like, I don't know.

I just love Kenya Martin. I don't know what to tell you. And that could be something that you talked about with your friends, like kind of over beers and stuff like that. And now I think if you want, you can be inundated with basketball analysis, basketball takes,

basketball stats, basketball highlights from the moment you open your eyes to the moment you close them. And that's just a different experience of a sport than I think we used to have like 20 years ago. It's not better or worse I guess. I know more about basketball than I ever did. I suppose there's that. Do you feel, I mean, what do you feel? I think that was a bad playoffs, but it didn't seem like a bad playoffs because we had something to talk about every day. But when we look back at the playoffs,

the Philly-New York series was super fun. Yeah. It just was good theater. The Denver-Minnesota Game 7 was awesome. I thought the OKC-Dallas entire series was really good. The two Boston-Indiana games at Indiana were good. Game 3, Dallas-Boston was good.

But for the most part, we were really scar-sign. But we've created an apparatus where we have to talk about it all the time. There was always something to talk about it all the time. There was always something to talk about, but it wasn't a good playoffs. No.

Right. I think we're better at filling that vacuum. When the games leave something to be desired, the conversation can be interesting and take turns that is definitely omnipresent in the way you're saying. Maybe not always healthy, but there is a movement to it that is interesting

and can keep it from feeling stale. What I worry about is the moments where the playoffs do deliver. When we have all this machinery that we've designed to have these debates and have these conversations,

is Derek White a real hooper? Like, whatever the fuck that means. What happens when the games are great and the series are great? Yeah, if... Let me ask you this. If this had been 1-1 going back to Dallas or no I guess it was at the beginning of the finals how about 2-2 going back what if it was an awesome finals and we were still like into game three there was still

like is Dan Hurley going to take the Lakers job was a bigger story than the finals like that's where I find we're getting a little bit out of whack with it well and then that Dan Hurley thing part of the reason I mean maybe most people don't care about it but at least in the media and our circles like the the machinations of that story were as fascinating as the story like why is the story happening yeah what where is this coming from is this real who has the game from it and it becomes you know fucking Oliver Stone territory all of a sudden I mean who has the gain from it apparently is every booker for every radio show after he took that yeah exactly somehow the ringer exactly we forgot to put it in our request to get dan hurley time um yeah it's i just thought the playoffs weren't very good and i and i think it had so much to do with the

injuries and just that uh and then the min-Denver series, which should have been the greatest series. And the games weren't good. It was one team or the other team just dominating until game seven. And then game seven was awesome. You don't think that series was good? I thought that that series was. Just not game to game. It was fascinating, but game to game,

you're not watching any of those games this summer. Sure. OKC Dallas was really good. And I thought Philly, New York was awesome. Yes. But then you get to that next New York Indiana series. That was one of the worst game 6-7 situations like we've ever had. Yeah, those guys, I mean, the Knicks were out

there with like guys they found on the street. Boston, Miami should have been awesome. It sucked. Milwaukee, Indiana could have been really fun. It sucked. It was just a lot of ah so I hope next year I hope

I hope next year is awesome hope everybody's healthy next year that's the thing a lot of the wind was taken out of all those sales because Giannis can't play Tyrese Halliburton has to leave the Knicks are running

half their roster Jimmy Butler goes down in the first game and Bede's playing on like one leg I wonder if the Olympics is going to be better than the NBA playoffs

just was that could be. I think that's in play because France that'll be that team be fun and they're playing home. Canada is going to

be good. If Jokic plays and gives a shit that'll be interesting. Our team is Germany good or did they just win the World Cup because like Germany's

good. Yeah they're good. There's a lot of like teams that you don't want to fall asleep on in Australia. And then our team which they designed as this like athletic,

everybody switches on D shooting and then Embiid and LeBron and Kawhi are playing now. And Kawhi's a big X factor. Yeah, maybe playing. Embiid certainly doesn't play like that and neither does LeBron. And then it's, now it's like,

are we doing, is this like a 92 dream team situation where this is the Olympics now about LeBron and Curry and Durant and these guys in this generation, like this is their big moment. Are we trying to win? Are we trying to push the young guys? Just a lot of agendas all the way around. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know how it plays out, but I don't know. This is what they were expecting a year ago. And then all of a sudden you had all these guys going, yeah, I'm going to play. And they're like,

oh, cool. Great. Will there be any knock-on effect from it, both in terms of like the guy who's at Team USA, who's like the light bulb went on, which is honestly best case scenario for Embiid. For me, you know, as a Sixers fan, is like Embiid going and be like, I figured out a couple of things being around these dudes

that I need to bring back to Philly. Turns out being in shape is important. Or does Embiid be like, you know what I really want to do is play with Anthony Edwards. So goodbye. You know, like I'm at his hotel room every day. Yeah. Just be glad Jalen Brunson isn't on the team. Seriously.

Jesus Christ. And then you have LeBron asking Tatum like, hey, do you think the Celtics can release my son? You got a back channel. Look, you got to have someone to work the angles with this. I know it was a smart move for them to take him at 30,

but can we just get him to the Lakers? I don't think Brad Stevens has that gear. No, he won't. Danny Ainge, I could see you doing it. Oh, Ainge definitely. Ainge might do it

with Utah. It's one of those picks. He's probably looking at it like, ah, we could get Max Crispy and Hood Shefino. Give us both. Chris Ryan, good to see you. Rob Mahoney, good to see you. Kyle Creight like, ah, we could get Max Crispy and Hood Schifino. Give us both. Chris Ryan, good to see you. Rob Mahoney, good to see you.

Kyle Creighton, Jack Wilson produces this podcast. Thanks for coming in today, guys. And I don't know if I'm doing another podcast this week. Don't forget about the Rewatchables, which did the longest yard. That was super fun. Yeah. That is up there now. You can find it on the YouTube Ringer Movies channel that we have.

Yeah, Talk to Thrones on Sundays after House of the Dragon.inger Movies channel that we have. Yeah, Talk the Thrones on Sundays after House of the Dragon. Talk the Thrones. The Dragon Show. Why don't you just call The Dragon Show? I don't think you run HBO.

You should send Casey Boyce a note. Be like, could you have thought about that? It's the Dragon Show. There's your theme right there.

Just tell me one thing that happened in the first episode. A kid got killed. Oh, no. By a dragon? No. Was there fire

and black magic and sorcery? There was none of that, actually. It was just straight up child murder. Did anything happen with the Canton police

or no? All right. Good to see you guys. Thanks. Thanks, Bill.