The Bill Simmons Podcast - The 25 Best NBA Playoff Guys Right Now With Zach Lowe | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: February 28, 2020

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN's Zach Lowe to discuss the biggest stories in the NBA, including the battle for Los Angeles and the Warriors-Timberwolves trade (3:50). Then they go over the top 25 NBA players (right now) they'd want to finish out the season with in hopes of winning an NBA title (20:08). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Remember them? Finding key players for your team can be challenging. We're about to talk about 25 of the most key players in the league with Zach Lowe. Stay tuned for that. Cafe El Toro CEO Dylan Miskiewicz could relate. Needed to hire a director of coffee. Posted his job on ZipRecruiter.

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One of the world's last great websites, as well as podcasts like the rewatchables, which I'm on this week, vision quest featuring the greatest three and a half minutes around Russell's career, a whole monologue on lap pull downs that actually happened, which features the book of basketball podcast, which comes back last week for the last episode of season one.

We also have bachelor party, which I went on as well. This is a six podcast week for me. I will just say this. I think pound for pound, this bachelor party episode that I was on this week with Juliet and Mallory is the single best podcast I've been on this year. Yeah.

Wow. Better than Bob Iger. Better than all the other ones. Oh, man. We did a fantasy draft of all of the Bachelor contestants for Bachelor in Paradise and treated it like the NFL draft.

And it's fantastic. And lines were crossed. I'll leave it at that. Coming up, my old Grantland colleague, still making a name for himself there, a kid from the streets of Greenwich, Connecticut, Zach Lowe. He's coming up right after we hear our friends from Pearl Jam. Okay, the thing you're about to hear with Zach,

we taped Wednesday afternoon Pacific time. I'm taping this part of the podcast Thursday afternoon Pacific time. There's a lot of Jason Tatum love that's coming up way later in this podcast. I just want to mention he was awesome yet again in Utah and it's becoming a thing. And I'm just like a beaming proud father, even though we're not related. That's how I feel. So we had that. Also last night, we premiered the new HBO documentary that we have coming on March 10th. It's called Woman of Troy. It's about Cheryl Miller and the 1983 USC women's basketball team.

We had the event at USC. The documentary played great. I just wanted you to put that on your calendars. March 10th, Woman of Troy. It's a good doc i feel like you like it all right let's bring in zach all right we're taping this it's a wednesday afternoon southern california time zach lowe is here he caught a the first really sunny nice week we've had in la we were running this on a thursday So if anything happens Wednesday night, basketball wise, either I'll have Kyle delete it after the fact or just no.

Like if something nuts happens and we didn't mention that, it's because we are taping this before the Wednesday games. We're going to play a little game. But before we do that, we have like 26, 27 games left. Yeah, a little less. Something like that, whatever. Biggest story in the league for you right now. Wow.

As we're heading to the home stretch. We're about two weeks away from everybody starts doing the MVP award way too early and that'll be the worst narrative part of the year when that happens. I feel like that's over. Biggest story in the league is the looming LA-LA battle, la battle i think i mean what else is there

really the race for eighth and zion is a big story that's kind of interesting but i don't think anyone thinks the pelicans are going to win a series if they get in right um and philly philly like what's going on with philly is ben sim how serious is his injury what does that mean but i'll go la laA. L.A. Don't you want to see that? Everybody wants to see that. We might see it in round two. I was going to say,

we don't know what round we're going to see it in. That's part of the story. It's been a really unhappy Clippers season from a sense of I just was so excited for it and it's been way more up and down

than I was prepared for. They have a lot of home games in March. A lot of good ones. A lot of good teams. They have a Lakers home game. They have Denver and Philly this weekend. And if they were ever going to turn the switch on and go on a little streak to make everybody feel better about LA versus LA, this is the month to do it.

See, I've never – I have just – maybe I'm just dumb, but I have never for one second worried about the Clippers. Really? Explain why. Well, the only time I worried a little bit was when Montrezl Harrell made those comments about how we got these new guys here and they weren't part of the team. I'm like, yeah, the new guys that are way better than everyone else on the team that was here, those guys. That was weird and it hinted at some chemistry stuff.

But like, I think they're like 19- 4 when pg and kawaii play together and all every time they lose i was like oh they've lost three out of four you look it's like pg didn't play beverly didn't play so and so didn't play i'm like the real team now you could argue it's time we got to see the real team now like that's what i'm arguing they need time to gel but like i the pieces fit cleanly enough that i'm i just haven't worried i haven't spent any time worrying about it four Four straight rounds is rough, especially when you get into that second, third round, and then especially the third round

when it's the every other night thing. And I just have real concerns about the health of this team. And it's weird, I don't have the same concerns about the Lakers, who have LeBron heading towards 60,000 minutes. He looks as indestructible as ever. I mean, last night, the Pelicans game, which was, you know, a lot of people were excited about.

It felt like a special game for a lot of reasons. And somehow LeBron was by far the most physically dominant guy on the floor. And this is Zion and Anthony Davis are out there, and LeBron just seemed like superhuman. It's interesting. Remember that series against Indiana two seasons ago? I think it was the last season with the Cavs.

Went to seven games yeah and he didn't bother posting up like one time until game seven when it was like all right now our season's on the line I'm just gonna post up Lance Stevenson every single time and he scored or drew double teams and triple teams now we're in like game 58 of the regular season he's like oh I'm gonna just post up Drew Holiday the entire game and like dunk and draw doubles like he took it personally yeah it's like, oh, I'm going to just post up Drew Holiday the entire game and like dunk and draw doubles. Like he took it personally. Yeah, but he's doing that every game. It's like, all right, I guess he must be feeling great.

He did it in the Celtics game too. He really tortured Hayward. And actually, I thought Hayward was good in the beginning of the game. And LeBron bully boyed him a couple of times. And by the third time, Hayward was out for the rest of the game. He was just, that was a direct decline to LeBron bully-boyed him a couple times, and by the third time, Hayward was out for the rest of the game. He was just—that was a direct decline to LeBron knocking him around.

And then he took Jalen down there at the end. And when he's doing that thing, which he really felt like it mastered in the 2018 playoffs and in that Warrior Series, where he would do that weird thing where he'd back the guy, switch hands, his elbows are flying. We need video of what you're doing right now to illustrate we do have video so you need to run that he's dribbling but his elbows are doing this everything either seems like a foul or it's not a foul but you could call 10 fouls or zero with no in between and what are you going to do if you're trying to stop that you're backing up because you have a 280-pound guy who's whipping his body against you, and nobody can withstand that.

It's incredible that, like, what are we, in 2020, that, like, eight years ago, it was like, well, when is he ever going to learn a post-up game? Like, he can't post up. And then in the first title they won, they won largely with him doing that. And now he's so good at it that when he does it, like, you need to guard a big man like you just you yeah there aren't wings who can really guard like jaylen fights pretty hard and like but you're gonna like if the nuggets play him i'm just throwing out a random team like you're gonna need to guard him with paul milsap or jeremy grant like you can't put like will barton or tory craig on him jaylen's about as small as you can go unless you count marcus smart who you really can't because he's another one who's

superhuman. The stretch six. I thought that was my favorite thing about the All-Star game where it became like a DC Comics movie and you had LeBron the superhero and then Giannis the other superhero and it's just like, alright, let's go. Who's physically stronger?

And it was like a stalemate. Were you there? No, I did not go. I actually kind of wish I had gone. I would have liked to have seen that. I didn't go either because it was my daughter's birthday. Yeah, because you had your daughter. You didn't time it. You didn't listen to me and you had your daughter in mid-February. It's the doctor's fault.

It was the doctor's fault. We were due in March 10th or something. Oh, that would have been great. Or March 1st or something. And we got induced two weeks early because they thought she was underweight and she wasn't underweight. She came out and the doctor literally was like, oh, I was wrong. Baby's like totally normal. And I was like, well, bad job, bad job. It's ruined your all-star games for the rest of your life. But I, I actually, you know, this, I like all-star. And so I skipped last year in Charlotte was the first

one I ever missed. Thought I would have major. I can't, I'm too old to say FOMO. Thought I would have major stress about not being there. Did not at all. Chicago, I was like, Chicago's a cool town. It's going to be cold. Then the game was going on. I was like, this is awesome. And so I've already, I've already told my wife I'm going to Indianapolis next year.

But the rule change was great. And the Giannis LeBron thing was a real thing. And I wish I had been there in the room for it. Well, LeBron and Giannis went at each other. But I thought the most interesting thing was that like team Giannis, the last three minutes or the last whatever points of the game was like, I guess we're going to run our offense through Joel Embiid. Like that was kind of interesting, right?

Like the name is the name of the team is Team Giannis. He's going to be the MVP again. And they're like, I think this is our best chance to feed this big dude. Right. And the Bucs fans got mad at me because that night I did a podcast and I was like, I don't know, kind of interesting that they couldn't go to Giannis the last three minutes. The All-Star game, you're going to use that? We're 47-8.

It's like, I actually am going to use that because unless he can show that in a situation like that where you have awesome defenders down the counter, well, nobody's going to have better defenders than that. The Lakers are pretty good and pretty big

and very capable of putting a wall. And I still want to know what his plan B is when it's not a fast break against a team like that. I think part of the plan B, so we're taping this on Wednesday, they just went to Toronto on a back-to-back and beat the Raptors

pretty bad. Not pretty bad, but rallied from a 12, 13-point deficit in Toronto. Convincing. And Toronto has between Ananobi and Siakam and a switchable center like Ibaka, and then you throw in a Rondé House Jefferson and a Boucher, they have the profile of guys who can at least give him problems. And A, he was fine. And B, like, I think you could make the argument every single player on the Bucs is better than they were last year. Like, even Lopez is shooting 29% from three. The rest of his game is so good.

So I think part of their answer is everyone got better. And part of that is going to be, like, if Eric Bledsoe doesn't kind of have whatever happened to him in the playoffs happen to him again, like, they're going to be really tough to beat. I would say Boston has the best chance defensively against them. They have the right sorts of guys, too. You could see it, the game I went to Sunday, when— it's really interesting when LeBron can't get the switch he wants

because you have five guys on the court and he's like, oh cool, it's Tice. And it's like, Tice is actually pretty good. He's okay. You're not torching him like he's Festus Azeale. And it's like, oh, I got Marcus Smart. And it's like, yeah, Marcus is ready for this. I think

they have the ability to switch. And the same thing with Giannis where, you know, he's a little bigger, but they could at least, if it's the right lineup. Now, the X-Factor is Kemba, which I think we have to talk about. I do not like what I'm hearing about this Kemba thing. Whoa! About the injury. About whatever's wrong. What does he have again?

He's got a knee thing. A knee thing. From what I understand, um, was not supposed to play a lot in the all-star game and was made clear to him, like, take it easy. He's in the all-star game.

He's starting. All these guys are out there. It's super exciting at Chicago. Little adrenaline gets going. And all of a sudden he plays that entire fourth quarter. And that was like a long fourth quarter. So that was a 42 minute in real time. And that was like a long fourth quarter. That was a 42-minute in real time fourth quarter. It was like a quarter and a half.

He's out there all the time. He actually physically wore down as the quarter went along. He missed everything. He was bad. And we haven't seen him since. Do I blame Nick Nurse? Yeah, a tiny bit. Didn't we see him one game since?

I don't know. Did we see him one game since? I don't know. Did we see him one game since? I feel like he played one game. Wow. It was so forgettable. I forgot it. But yeah, now he's out. And I'm just like, okay.

So then you start thinking about the Charlotte angle of this. Charlotte was pretty happy to not give him a max contract for reasons that remain unclear. Meanwhile, they gave half of his money to Rozier or 60% of his money to Rozier. So is this a new thing or is this something that's been there for a while? Fair question. And I do not have the answer for that. I'm concerned. And now you think of the history of Celtics point guards are becoming the spinal trap drummer of this decade. Where it's like, hey, we have this totally healthy, awesome point guard.

Uh-oh, what's wrong with him? Oh, he'll be back in a couple days. Wait, he's not back yet. What's going on? I hope you're being premature. Oh, I'm definitely being premature. Look. I hope you are.

This is the number one Boston team now. This is the Tatum resurgence is basically what I think about night and day. And that Kemba's not there and you're in this Lakers game and Brad Wanamaker's playing 25 minutes. And it's like, if we had Kemba out here, I want to know what's happening. But I'm nervous. I'm nervous about Kemba's day. They're the number one Boston team.

So it's over for the Patriots? You know I'm going to have stupid football questions. So it's over? I think the Celtics and the Bruins have far better chances to win the title at this point than the Patriots and Red Sox, short term. Okay. I know the Red Sox made some horrible trade.

Yeah, they traded their best outfielder in 60 years. It was a problem. What's the NBA equivalent of that, Harden? The equivalent is... We've now met our quota for the that Harden the equivalent is we've now met our quota for the James Harden trade reference it's happened was it a 9 minute mark well so we won a world series

with him so it would have to almost be somebody it would be like trading I don't want to say Steph because Steph he won the MVPvp and stuff like although i guess mookie did too if steph was a little worse it would be like trading him if durant never came there in 2018 if they don't by the way i love how everything the warriors do

now the warriors have this sheen of like genius and being right all the time so they trade for andrew wiggins who like the whole world agrees is not good and on a terrible contract. And then the articles start trickling out like, this is part of their grand plan to get Giannis. I ignored the Giannis stuff. You think? No, I'm just saying like,

this is their grand plan to get Giannis? It involves Andrew Wiggins somehow? Like, can we just chill with the Warriors? You still like that trade for them, though. The Warriors are light years ahead. I thought it was, I just, I would say I didn't hate it for them as much as everyone else did.

I think it has a chance. Here's one for you. Wait, people hated it for them? Yeah. Oh, I like, Russel and I both liked it. Yeah, I liked it. I thought it was smart.

Probably a tiny bit more. I just feel like he can play with Klay and Steph. I didn't feel like Russell could. The one thing I think I overlooked in my initial, I like this a tiny bit more. I just feel like he can play with Clay and Steph. I didn't feel like Russell could. The one thing I think I overlooked in my initial, I like this a little bit more for Golden State than Minnesota is I framed it as, well, there's some risk here for Minnesota because they've

given up a potentially high pick in 2021. And then I think the correct counter to that is, risk what? They're going nowhere. They're going nowhere without him. Towns is going to be angry. The downside risk for them is not as big as it appears to be when you just isolate that pick.

But anyway, enough Warriors stuff. Can we say one thing on the T-Wolves, though? Sure. My counter to that is, so they're in an unhappy, dysfunctional relationship with Towns, where a lot of stuff hasn't come out. But clearly, if you watch the games on League Pass, it's like, wow, that guy seems unhappy.

So that the fix is we'll bring somebody else in to be happy. It's the equivalent of a relationship where you're fighting with your girlfriend all the time and you're living together and you should probably break up. But one day you go and you get a dog, you know, we'll have a dog, a dog will make this better. Now, if you share a dog, we'll walk the dog. It'll be our dog. Well, this, this will bring us closer. I feel like that was what the Wiggins trade was for the Timberwolves.

They were like, here, we got you, Andrew Wiggins. You like them, right? You can run high screens of them. And it's like, but where are you going? If those are your two best players, what do you mean? We got, we got you, Angela Russell. Oh, do what I say. best players what do you mean we got we got you angela russell oh do what i say d'angelo you said we got you andrew wiggins angela is oh yeah we got you d'angelo russell who's friends with towns yeah it's like i'm old but you know what i'm saying i think you're gonna in the western conference

i mean beasley is gonna fit in well like they're gonna be a good offensive team the beasley trade was a steal they're gonna be a why did denver not just keep Beasley and either bench Gary Harris or trade him? I would rather—Beasley at least can create his own shot. He's balling out for the Wolves. Maybe he's enjoying his newfound freedom, perhaps a little bit too much. Isn't that exactly the kind of guy Denver needed, though, when you watch them? It's like, man, I wish they had one more guy who could create a shot. I just think they thought, he's not going to play.

Let's get something for him. I agree. He's good. good like wancho is a different story but he he's good okay we're gonna do this okay let's take a break and then we're doing this hey with home security there are two ways you can go about protecting your home the traditional way where you wait weeks for a technician to do a messy installation that costs a small fortune. Or the other way, simply save everything you need in a home security system, award-winning protection.

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SimpliSafe.com slash BS. Kyle, speaking of BS. Yeah. A lot of Tom Brady might leave stuff. I hate it all. I think it's BS. That has no SimpliSafe in front of it. It's just slash BS.

Tom Brady staying back to the podcast. Okay. So I texted you. You did. You said you had a chance to come into the pod. I'm like, cool. I'll come up with a dumb gimmick and then we'll, we'll make it happen. Here's the dumb gimmick.

I made a list of my top 25 players right now for the next four months if I'm trying to win the title. So a couple of caveats. One, this is not a list of who are the best 25 players in the league. This is a list of my top 25 players right now if I'm trying to win a title. If you're a fourth quarter, game seven, these are guys I trust to be on the floor. One series, four straight rounds, all of it. I'm trying to win a title. Who are my picks? Second caveat is has to be somebody who actually has a chance to be in the playoffs.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So that, that knocked out some people, but allows like a Bradley Beal to still linger because, you know, America's favorite team,

the wizards still punchers chance of being an eight seed and getting demolished by the bucks love the east bill has uh making him run for a relevant league plus superstar of the year league pass superstar where it's like oh turn on the wizards game they're playing the nets bradley bill has 58 through three quarters like he's a realistic text to get at this point. Yeah, absolutely. He's angry and he's plain angry. So I made a list. We thought it'd be more fun if I made a list

and then you made fun of the list. You're the Simon Cowell of the list. You're critiquing the list. I don't, didn't he do bad stuff? He did bad stuff,

didn't he? Was Simon Cowell canceled? Googling. He's on a TV show. Yeah, but he did some bad, Gabrielle Union, I think, did not say nice things about but he did some bad Gabrielle Union I think

said did not say nice things about him and I trust you I trust Gabrielle what other judge do you want to use I don't care what about what about Katy Perry you'd be the Katy Perry yeah great number one on my list top 25 players I would want for the next four months if I'm trying to win a title.

Okay. Do you think I picked Kawhi or LeBron? I think you picked LeBron. I picked Kawhi. Oh! Okay. Couple reasons. I actually think he looks fantastic.

This is about as good as he's looked in the regular season other than that 2017 Spurs stretch when you wrongly picked him for MVP. Remember that? Wow. You're really going to say I was wrong, even though we... Yeah. No, I... Yeah. You would do that over. I would not. Absolutely not. You would keep the Kawhis 2017. Yes. Do you know, in the book of Basketball Pod, we talked about how the Dwight Howard, your MVP piece. Yeah. Yeah. And I was saying there's no record of it because all the insights are gone. Someone found it. Yeah. It's on the dark web. Yeah. Your whole Dwight Howard, your MVP piece. Yeah. And I was saying there's no record of it because all the insights are gone. Yeah.

It's on the dark web. Yeah. Your whole Dwight Howard, it was a pretty good case. I thought he should have been MVP that year. I don't take that one back either. He is by far

the best defensive player in the league this year. And that has to matter. Prime Dwight Howard was, but I wrote this like a month and a half ago in a column, like something happened

with Kawhi like six or seven weeks ago where his body started to feel better or something and he started playing defense it was like uh-oh I recognize that now Spider-Man defense I recognize that guy yeah and that's a problem I'm excited I'm going Friday night I haven't seen him in person since he went up a level athletically. You can see it a little bit in the all-star game too. From what I've heard, they put a lot of time into the training and all that stuff. And the men, they devote a lot of resources to making him feel good.

And I think this is the best he's felt in a long time. That's why they played Memphis on Monday night. I was there and everyone was sort of disappointed by the game because Jaron Jackson's hurt. The Grizzlies are kind of teetering a little bit. And it was like 45 to 14 at one point. I loved it because Beverly is back and playing well. PG was back and playing well. And Kawhi's out there playing well.

And they went through like a 10 minute stretch of, okay, let's, let's, let's like, let's play. And the Grizzlies were like, oh, we can't get any baskets. Yeah. We can't do anything. They did that to the Celtics early in the season, too. They've had stretches where when they put the clamps down, the clamps are down. Yeah.

So I went with Kawhi. It's fun. Because he's the reigning champ. I think that has to matter. I think he's completely unafraid of LeBron and AD and the Lakers in that situation. He will become fearless in whatever series you throw him into.

I even like something stupid like the All-Star game. I felt like he could get a basket anytime he wants. I think this late 90s Michael Jordan last three minutes of the game, I can get a 20-footer from any spot on the floor thing that he has evolved into is basically unstoppable.

He makes these like, not even the 20 footers. It's like the weird, like 14 footers. Right. Where he rises up and they look so easy. And you're like, man, that's a hard shot. Like you had to work hard to get there. But then all of a sudden it looks like it's easy. And there's some sort of hitch in how he shoots that every single time throws the defender off because a lot of times he's shooting and the guy's right there and could like tip it,

block it, whatever. But the way he kind of unfurls it, he always gets the shot off and there's never a hand in his face. I don't know how he does it. Looks easy. Um, he doesn't look to me last year, especially the last couple of rounds that he was, it felt like he was on one and a half legs and even like pushing off his leg. It didn't feel like it was totally there. A little like Tim Duncan, second half of his career. We just did a book of basketball pot about Oh three Spurs Lakers. And you forget when Duncan had the two legs and could spin either way and do all the Tim Duncan stuff from both sides, like how we just remember like the last eight, nine years.

Yeah. He was basically dragging one leg around and doing everything off. You look at his box score numbers from some of those prime playoff runs. Oh, my God. He was like 35, 15, and like six blocks kind of game, like five assists. Like they were like Shaq, prime prime shack kind of all-around numbers he played 24 playoff games that year and he's 25 15 and 5 every game and they this was early spurs they had nobody left anyway so i still have kawaii lebron

i mean he looks as good as ever he looks unbelievable it's bonkers it makes no sense it has no correlation to anything that's happened in the history of the league that he is still doing this at this age like even I did that book of basketball pod about Kobe that last good year

he had Kobe was 34 that year the year that he ended up tearing his Achilles but you think all the miles he has and he just physically what he did in that Celt the game what he looked like in that pelicans game yesterday he just seems like he's had 100 of his powers he scored 40 and like the lakers needed him to score 40 and you got 40 last night against pelicans so i'll just go through the top four then we can talk about it i have y Giannis at three and Davis at four. And then that's the end of the first tier.

I think those are the four guys, if I'm trying to win a title, those are the four superheroes where eventually there are these moments in these playoff games where the superheroes start all staring at each other. And, you know, the Davis thing, I can only tell you how I felt in my seat rooting for the Celtics on Sunday. I was so happy every time they didn't go to him because it just seems like he's unstoppable if they actually run offense for him or get him in space

or do a little screen roll with him or try to get him by himself on the block. And then I was watching how the Celtics were reacting. That was clearly what they didn't want. They were actually fine with LeBron posting up. They were trying to single team him. When Davis was posting up, everyone was reacting differently. And as a Laker hater, I guess my point is,

I'm hoping that there's a tug of war between what's the right thing to do in the last few minutes of this game, because LeBron is always going to want to ultimately be the one to decide stuff like he did in the Celtic game. He made an incredible turnaround. But I wonder if Davis is kind of a more efficient option. I don't think teams are that

scared of AD in the post. Really? I just, I think he's good there. He's a good post just, I think he's good there. He's a good post player. But if, what if he's guarded by Daniel Tice with five fouls and three minutes? Well, that's a different story, but also when part of it depends also on who's also in the game for the

Lakers. Like when they have a center in the game, all that space is a lot tighter for him. The help rotations are a lot easier. So that to me is the biggest big picture thing they have to think about down the stretch of every game um obviously you're you're going to have irritated houston fans with your tier one here um without harden and uh do you blame me he's proven more in the playoffs than Anthony Davis has. Now he's also had two or three all-time

like what happened? Did he have food poisoning at halftime? Like what's happening to him? Too many shaky playoff moments, which we all, we broke down when we did our pot about him for the other feed.

I judge that more by the history. It's like, look, I'm putting you here. Prove to me you shouldn't be in the top feed. I judge that more by the history. It's like, look, I'm putting you here. Prove to me you should be in the top tier. But what is Anthony Davis' postseason history? For me, that was more of a matchup thing where I just look at all the teams that are going to play.

How many teams have a guy who can slow him down? That's what's going to be interesting is because all of these teams, I mean, you throw the Clippers who starts on anthony davis probably they'll throw marcus morris on him now he's sort of the de facto like of our three big wings you'll get the first shot at the unpleasant match what are the ads he tries to goad ad into some sort of a fake tough guy thing by game two okay not game one he saves it do you save it for game two. Okay. Not game one? He saves it? He saves it for game two.

Like a jump ball, hold the ball a little longer, rip it away, and kind of give him a shove move? Game two. Okay. Game two.

It is going to be interesting to see how well Davis manages one-on-one in the post. So you're really all in on the you haven't really shown it to me in the playoffs yet part of this. I'm not. I in on the, you haven't really shown it to me in the playoffs yet. Part of this for him.

I'm not, I just, I, I think Anthony Davis is really good and I don't have huge objections to you here. I'm just going to tell you that he has not done very much in the post. The other reason I put him over Harden is I think he can still, um,

affect and swing playoff games without having to score. That's clearly true. And I think you could say that about all four of those guys. LeBron's probably the weakest, but LeBron in the last three, four minutes of a big game is still going to make stuff happen. He's still going to be able to defend people. I was a little shocked by how easily Jason Tatum was going by him on Sunday.

I thought we were going to see a Jason Tatum tier one appearance right now. I'm delirious with the Jason Tatum excitement night right now, but that would be insane. Should Giannis be one? The Bucs fans would argue they're having one of the best regular seasons of all time. He's going to be a back-to-back MVP. He got a huge taste last year and probably would have won the series

if they hadn't blown game three. And why isn't he number one? What's your case for against that one? I just think given what the first two have accomplished, I don't have any argument with it. I mean, LeBron has been the best player in the NBA. Is he now still? I don't know, but he's close enough to his peak

that he's still LeBron James. And Kawhi is a two-time Finals MVP. Like, I don't see... That's how I feel as well. I don't see any... Like, I love Giannis. He's unbelievable. I'm going to vote him MVP almost certainly unless something crazy happens in the last 20 games, but I don't...

They're all really good. I don't have any argument with you. We'll go to tier two. Okay. It's about to get a little wonky. Okay. James Harden five. Okay.

I think that's the right spot for him. Whether you want to say he's tier one, tier two, I think he's a clear five. Okay. He is still averaging 35 points a game. He still causes terror and panic on other teams. Clarification.

The Warriors, they have to be in the playoffs this year. So Durant, Curry, we're just discarding all the Warriors guys. Clay, okay. Number six. Unless you want to do like a tiny bit about the Rockets against everybody. The Rockets against the world i'm tired of talking about the rockets are you somebody that the on rockets twitter they get upset at you or are you still pretty neutral i'm probably pretty neutral there's the the crazy

the craziest thing that ever happened to me was Rockets Twitter during one of the years Harden didn't win MVP. And there was a sphere of Rockets Twitter that was going totally over the edge that people were going to vote Curry over Harden. And it was a dark time. But I think neutral. I was never... You were very upset about the no Capella five out thing the first game you were tweeting you were very upset i just hated watching it see i to me it was no different than how they were already playing just there wasn't a big guy there it was the same in fact to me it's more exciting because without the big guy there russ is suddenly like uber powerful so i like i didn't i don't feel strongly either way about it but i did not feel strongly negatively toward it for sure. And now you feel vindicated because you've always loved Russ. Always. I've been on,

I've been, I should be a five-time MVP. I, I respect it more than I did a couple of weeks ago. I hated it on first glance. Like I really hated it. I don't in general love the 48 to 53 is a game kind of mentality of how to play basketball.

But I do think the more I, the more I've watched it and I vowed never to watch it. And I keep getting sucked in because the Westbrook part is so fascinating that they've basically cleared out a runway for him to just take off like a fighter jet 40 times and just go barreling into people that you know if if there's a big guy out there they just figure out how to torture that guy until he leaves and now it's smaller in their space and he's just physically dominant for his size he uh against utah last week they had gobert guarding him it was for a lot of the game and he

went at gobert got gobert a little bit off balance and laid the ball in. And then he rocked the baby on Gobert. You're supposed to rock the baby on little guys. He rocked the baby on Rudy Gobert. I like this, Russ. This is fun. That might have flipped the Jazz season because it was already a little bit teetering. I was liking them as a sleeper to win the West. And after that game, I think everybody,

now today they benched Mike Connelly. And now, I don't know. It just seems like that game put them in flux. Will any Utah players be on your top 25? Yeah. Okay. Number six. Joel Embiid.

Like it. Here's the case. And you saw it in the All-Star game, as you mentioned earlier. There was a moment in that game where everybody kind of looked at each other and goes, oh, you know who our best option is? The seven foot two guy who can put his ass

five feet from the basket and get a good shot. And maybe we should give it to him. Now, we have endurance issues. We have conditioning slash health issues. We have doesn't seem to always know what he should be doing on a basketball court and he's too far away

from the basket. All of those things. But as a two-way guy, I still feel like he's the sixth guy who is potentially in a playoff series. Whether the Simmons thing will is potentially in a playoff series. Whether the Simmons thing will unleash him in some way remains to be seen. It certainly

hit 49 against the Hawks. I think we need to prepare for this. When either one of those guys is hurt, the other one is going to put up better individual numbers. That does not mean that the team is better without the other guy in terms of like a long term sustainable.

Can they win the championship, which is what they're trying to do. But like, there's no question that without Ben Simmons on the floor, Joel Embiid is going to post up with much more room and score a lot more points. And there's no question with Embiid out and Simmons in, they're going to look like the Bucs and he's going to be their version of 90% of Giannis and it's going to look awesome. To win the championship, they're going to need them both.

I like Embiid this high. I don't have it in front of me, but those plus minus figures from the Raptors series will always stick with me when they were like plus a gazillion with Embiid on the floor and minus a gazillion in like the very limited time that he was on the bench.

They were minus so many points that it almost looks like a fake stat. It's looking like Miami Philly. Oh my God. In round one. Now there will be. You think fight over under one and a half altercations? Well, just like the Butler thing

and the level of trash talking that's going to be happening. It's going to be... Have you seen some of the Butler numbers of him end of games, big shots, crunch time, all that stuff? Are they bad? They're horrible.

Most people are bad. If you're zeroing in on the last 30 seconds... His kids are really, really, truly bad. He's a good playoff player, though. I agree. He's going to be on this list pretty soon I would imagine. That's

that's a series where I throw my hands up. I have no idea what would happen in that series especially because we don't know who's going to be healthy all that stuff. I don't know

haven't really totally loved what I've seen from Iguodala so far. I think they're really counting him. The Jay Crowder just kind of randomly having him get

thrown in that trade was felt to me like a bigger deal than iguodala because at least i know that guy's gonna be healthy and playing and who was jay crowder is like some bizarro streak shooter where he's just like he's not a good three-point shooter yeah and then he'll have like a two-week period where he's like six of eight, five of seven, three or four. Like what the hell got into this guy? Like he's in one of those right now. I am not a huge Jay Crowder fan, but I think if you're talking about eight guys for a playoff series, if he's your seventh or eighth guy, that's a nice spot for Jay Crowder. So, yeah, we could get Philly, Milwaukee and I mean, I'm sorry, Philly, Miami, Miami Miami with Miami with home court which I don't think

necessarily matters that much because well you know it matters to me until Philly proves it can beat anyone with five ambulatory players on the road they're two and 21 on the road what are they nine and twenty nine and twenty on the flip side the flip side of that is they're 27 and two at home right which is like when you start getting into that kind of home record territory, like, ooh, that's interesting. I got to give a shout out to their crowds. I think their crowds have been really good this year. And then I think when they booed Embiid that time,

I actually thought that was the right move. And I think it got the desired result. He was good in that game. Embiid needs to just be Embiid. Like, he's going through this thing where he's like, I'm not going to talk trash this year. I'm not going to be that. And then he's like, no, I need to be the same old asshole that I used to be.

That's his words, I think. Like, yeah. Like, if that's what makes you happy and makes you play, just do whatever. Give Kevin Herter the middle finger in the middle at the end of a game. I don't care. Do what makes you like feel, makes you feel good. Yeah.

He had that whole drumming thing where you'd actually like made me feel genuinely bad for drumming. I feel like drumming's career was altered by that feud. He, I don't know that I've ever seen a player completely own and dismantle a fellow all-star. Yeah. Like not a bum.

He fouled Andre Drummond out of games in like 11 minutes and would just wave goodbye to him and andre drummond would sulk off the floor like oh it happened again michael jordan did to clyde drexler that's probably the most famous one i mean he actually altered the course of clyde's career well and then in dream team same thing by the time they came out of the 92 finals in the dream team and Clyde's a shell in the next season his stats actually go down and stuff so I got him beat six I like him beat six I like it I think he is when he's dialed in I think he changes every second of the game when he's on the floor so I have this is where it gets tough. Markel Fultz?

I put Paul George seventh. And I don't know how good I feel about this, but I'm basing it off. He was like the eighth best guy in the league last year. I think he's finally starting to seem like he might hopefully be healthy. And then you're looking at him, just the ideal two-way guy. What the Celtics are hoping that Jason Tatum has turned into.

But at least he's been in these games before. I'm not attached to this, though. My next three were Paul George, Dame Lowe, or Jason Tatum. And I can... Initially, I had Tatum seventh. And then I was like, Zach's going to make fun of me. Because I've just been so blown away by the two-way play for it. And it's not a short sample size anymore.

We're talking, this is a month and a half of his, everything has fallen into place. He's moving as on his drives to the basket. It's not as frantic anymore. There's real purpose to every decision he makes. I mean, he's going to lead my column on Friday. He is the craft of what he's doing. Yes. Craft is a good word.

Is, is so high level. But, but, but recent. When is, when is the last time, this is what I was going to ask you. When is the last time we've had this happen? We're in the middle of a season, not at the beginning of a season after summertime improvements and this and that in the middle of a season, something a player makes, not just a little leap,

the leap. And all of us at the same time have this like, Oh, this is, this is an event. This is happening in like January, February, Anthony Davis. What years ago in like January, February. Anthony Davis.

A couple years ago. Like the year that they ended up making the playoffs with Rondo and those guys. Remember? All of a sudden, he turned into Tim Duncan and we were like,

whoa, this happened. My first thought was Kawhi. The first year, maybe 15, 16, it was. He'd already won finals MVP for sure. Well, you know,

there is. So it's happened more frequently than you think, because I remember we were at Grantland. I'm going to say it's 13 or 14 when I was doing trade value and I ended up staggering it over three parts. It must've been 14. And Curry changed to the point that he started moving up in my rankings as I was doing it. By the time I finished, he was fourth. Yeah.

I'd have to go back and look at the first really great Curry season. It was 14. And it was like, oh, this guy's actually going to be a generational player. Like, I don't think any of us were thinking that before 14. At 14-0, they end up losing in the first round to the Clippers. And then he wins the MVP the next year. Right. In 15, and they win the title.

I thought Kawhi— Or maybe it was 15. It might have been 15. No, 15, though. They won a lot of games, though. No, it was 14. It was 14. I believe they won 67 and 15 in their first championship year.

Because 14 was a really important year for him because he went toe-to-toe with Chris Paul for seven games, and it was awesome. Well, I'll always remember the series the year before, 12-13, when they were the sneaky sixth seed and beat Denver. It wasn't just beating Denver. It was going to San Antonio in the next round and stealing. Did they steal game one?

They stole game one, yeah. Or did they blow a big lead? They stole game one and blew a big lead in game two. You know why I remember this? Because I went on TV and I told everyone they were going to win the series. And then they did it. And the Spurs fans were like, hey, fuck you. That whole thing happened.

I love that. That was the series. And then I had to go to San Antonio as they taunted me about it. That was the series though when you knew if they're doing this to the Spurs, this is now a real thing.

Anyway, we're sidetracked. No, no, we're not sidetracked because this has happened. The name that hasn't come, so when you put PG at seven, I made a mental note that it said, here are the names I'm curious that hasn't come. So when you put PG at seven, I made a mental note that it said, here are the names I'm curious that haven't come up yet. Do you want me to do the next five in the tier that we haven't covered?

Paul George, seven, Dame eight, Tatum nine, Donchich ten. He was one of the names. Jokic 11. He was the other one.

And that's the end of the second tier. So the case, Paul George. These are all great players, man. I know. I mean, they're all awesome. Everyone's a winner. The Paul George case is,

when I went to that Celtic Clipper game earlier in the year, it still felt like varsity, junior varsity, with Kawhi and Paul George were the varsity. Tatum and Jalen were the 10th graders who know they're as good as the seniors, but the seniors are still the seniors.

And that was the vibe. And I still feel like that's the Paul George vibe to me. Tatum, I actually think, has a higher ceiling this season, but Paul George is more reliable.

That question is the injury stuff. What have you heard about him physically and where this could go the next four months anything he looked great the other night i assume that they're just being ultra cautious with these guys and that they're all going to be ready to go maybe that turns out not to be the case but pg i love pg he's a stud he's had at a very young age he had playoff moments

like you and i watched that series with Miami. Yeah. Where it was like when LeBron gave him the nod on the court and was like, wow, this guy's like 22 and is ready. Like hitting clutch free throws, clutch shots. He's also ahead of late a couple of those like two of 18 in elimination games or big games. But when you throw his defense in, I'm fine with him there. Jokic.

I understand the Jokic skepticism. And again, there's no shame being 11th on this list. I think people are underrating what he did in the playoffs last year. He was ridiculous. He made the 42 club. 42 points. Rebounds.

Oh, he was unbelievable in the playoffs last year. 42 club. 42. Points, rebounds, assists. For his average. He was unbelievable in the playoffs last year. Now, the competition was just an eh Spurs team that took him to seven. And as conference finalists go, a pretty eh conference finalist in Portland that beat him in seven. So it wasn't like he was. It was Cantor and Zach Collins. He was. Yeah.

Where is magic? You look at the top six in the West this year. in Portland that beat him in seven. So it wasn't like he was... It was Cantor and Zach Collins. He was wearing his magic. You look at the top six in the West this year, it's going to be a different universe for them probably in the playoffs. I'd put Doncic and Jokic lower than George Lower Tatum only because of the two-way thing. Luka hasn't shown me yet that he can be a plus defender in a playoff game I also the ankle thing I hate when guys

keep getting hurt it's the same injury and now he's had two of those in a season upside wise could he could he get his shit together and just single handedly beat somebody in round one like of course and I think you could say the same thing of Jokic depending on the matchup we I was

really disappointed in Jokic earlier in the season course and i think you could say the same thing of yokich depending on the matchup we i was really disappointed yokich earlier in this season he's done some stuff lately and i'm excited to see him in person on friday night he's done some stuff lately where he just there's some low post stuff happening with him that's as high level as he's done yeah Yeah. After the first month of the season, he's been one of the five to six best players in the NBA. Yeah. So the good thing for them, and this is why Friday is such an interesting game. So we're taping this Wednesday afternoon.

The Nuggets are 40 and 18. Clippers are 38 and 19. I don't think Clippers having home court advantage matters that much ultimately because they're fans, whatever. Denver having it matters. They're fans, whatever, dot, dot, dot. Well, they have, I'll do respect, but they have, you know, a third of the fans are real Clipper fans. Everybody else is there because they got tickets from somebody.

Okay. It's a crowd that is not really going to swing a game. Now, Ballmer could swing a game just for being a maniac in his seat. But Denver, the altitude, and I know they've had some tough losses over the years in there, but I still feel like it's better for them to have it. Their home record over the last, going back to that crazy Ty Lawson. Remember that Ty Lawson season? Oh, yeah. What were they, like 35-6 or something at home?

It was some bonkers number. But the Friday night thing will be a nice test because it feels like that's going to be the 2-3 matchup unless the Rockets just keep blowing everybody away. It's wide open up there. And Utah is still only a couple games out of those guys if they get their you-know-what together. And Oklahoma City's looming.

Like, it's a – how that two to – let's just call it two to four for now sorts out is going to be fun. All right. So we got – here are my two tiers. Tier one, Kawhi, LeBron, Giannis Davis. Tier two, Harden, Embiid, George, Lillard, Tatum, Doncic, Jokic. That's the top 11. Last Tatum question. I don't want to do too much on Tatum. Yesic, Jokic. That's the top 11. Last Tatum question.

I don't want to do too much on Tatum. Yes, you do. Well, I don't want to do too much, but I'm super excited about it. Could he be the best player in three straight playoff series in the East before the finals, in your opinion? Is that now in play?

Because that was inconceivable two months ago. So you talk about they're playing Brooklyn round one, they're playing Toronto round two, and then Milwaukee round three. Is there a world in which he's the best player in those three series?

That world exists. Yeah. That's how I feel as well. I don't think it's a pretty likely world, but the first two, he is the best player. I think, I'm interested to see where you have the raptors

guys ranked because in my i'm trying to kyle lowry ranks way higher in my trying to win the title this year rankings than he does in like best overall for the next whatever year's rankings like he's a good he's a good bet for that but i think tatum is the best individual player of he's better than siakam right now and Brooklyn it's forget it can we just indulge me on Tatum for like 20 more seconds yeah do you think we can now call him a future MVP candidate

yes I do I think that the guy look first of all this is great the guy who's played in the last the guy who's played in the last month he won't keep this up. He's just hanging 35 and 40 on teams every night. That's not going to keep up, I don't think. If it does, we're all in trouble.

But that guy can be a top five player in the NBA. When you throw in his defense. The two-way stuff is, and that's why when we did the, me and Rosillo in-house, we did an all-star pod trying to figure out what our all-star picks was. And it was basically Tatum or Brown

you had to pick. And this was a little bit before he took off. My theory is, here's my theory. It's not a little bit before he took off. He took off like

the second he got named. So my theory, my not totally uneducated theory is that he was really pressing. He really cared about making all-star. was screwing with his head a little bit. And once he made it, it was like, my head's clear.

Let's go. His two-way stuff was really good even before that happened. He wasn't finishing like he is now. You're right. He was pressing a lot offensively, but the stats were indisputable when he was on the court. Yeah, his on on all stuff. At some point. And I'm always nervous with that stuff,

relying on it too much. But it was the way I felt watching Celtic games. It was like, oh, we got to get him back out here. This is dangerous now. He's been out of the game too long. I think he can be an MVP candidate. Yeah, I don't think that's crazy at all. I'm going to have a cigarette and just regroup

and we're going to take a break. Well, but let me ask you as a Celtics fan. Why? So don't you think one of the interesting things I'm going to have a cigarette and just regroup and we're going to take a break. Well, but let me ask you as a Celtics fan, why? So don't you think one of the interesting things about this and potentially good ones is that, you know, last year you had this team where everyone wants the ball and no one's happy and this, the old guys, the young guys. And this year you had this team where it's like, can we get Kemba, Marcus, Gordon, Jalen, Jason to all play well in the same game? And who's going to have the ball?

Like, I think part of the benefit of this is now there's a hierarchy. He's the best guy. He's the number one option. No one else gets to, there's no complaining anymore when it's not cutting time. Everyone knows where the ball should go, where it should start. I think that's like, I think you need that as a championship contender. If you want to be a championship contender, I think you need to have that issue resolved.

And he like kind of organically resolved it. You're speaking my language. Okay. So you agree. I a hundred percent agree. It started to happen. There were people started writing and talking about him probably like six, five,

six weeks ago. I always like when the quotes from the teammates and stuff were like, he's unbelievable, he's really special. And it's somebody like Jalen Brown saying it. People like Jalen Brown, you'd think there'd be a little bit of competitiveness to them a year apart. Now you're seeing the quotes where Jalen Brown's like,

he's a superstar. And Jalen Brown, as a result, has to buy into like, I can still average 20, but I got to do all the other stuff really well because I'm not going to average 30. I'm not going to be the guy. So I'm going to be the guy on defense. I'm going to get deflections. I think that's what he wants. Yeah. And so like, this is what I'm saying. Like this is now the, and Kemba will figure it out. Cause he's Kemba and like Marcus Gordon. I don't

know what their, their, their destiny is not to be the guy now. That's just it. I mean, Marcus Smart never was going to be, but, uh... It's tough because I think if Kemba, assuming Kemba comes back, hopefully, cross my fingers, they'll Marcus or Hayward for that fifth spot in crunch time. And it'll probably depend on the matchup. But I think the Hayward thing is tough because he's like a Jenga stack.

And if he loses his confidence, you might lose him for the series. So you got to navigate that. I'm going to have a cigarette. We're going to take a break. Howdy. I know that to have a cigarette. We're going to take a break. Howdy. I know that's not my usual greeting, but I can't help but feel like I'm Tim Holt

when I wear my Tecovis cowboy boots. Just call me man with no name or maybe man with amazing shoes. Kyle and I decided to get a little wonky the other night. Went to the dark room wearing our cowboy boots. God, what a night it was. Turned out it was too dark for people to notice how great they look.

But you know what? I felt great. I felt sturdy. I felt tall. Not that I'm not tall already. You know what I was wearing? Cowboy boots handmade with high quality full grain leathers

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That is T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com slash BS. All right, we're back. I didn't really have a cigarette. I was joking. I was joking. It was like Coed is talking about Tatum. Smoking is unhealthy. Yeah, it's bad.

Harder to get insurance. One of the only things we've done right in America is that no one smokes anymore. Except for Kyle. We figured that out. You're killing Kyle right now. Sorry. We figured that out.

You're going to be getting your Uber after the pod. He's going to be like sneaking a safe 10 feet away. When I was in grad school at William & Mary in Virginia, we would go to the same bar every night it was the grad school grad school bar yeah it's like 2003 it's like not that long ago the clothes i would like everyone smoked it was disgusting and now no one smokes you can't go anywhere on the balcony to air them air your shirt out so you can potentially wear it again yeah we get emails at my building in new york uh like the land the apartment building manager will send emails like reminder there's no smoking within like 500 feet of the building your balcony is a no smoking zone you

can't smoke on the sidewalk it's like where kind of where the fuck am i supposed to smoke if i want to jesus number 12 number 13 this is third tier. It only has two people. Those two people are Kyle Lowry and Pascal Siakam. Oh! So I'm going to stop you now. Okay. So here's the case for Lowry at 12. You don't need to make these cases.

I'm in. They're champions. Lowry at 12, you made the case. That guy is fucking badass. You saw it in the All-Star game. We're in this All-Star game game every great player is in the court and it's the east most or whatever team he was on it kyle lowry is the most important player on the court for them he's doing the most he's the least afraid if you're kyle lowry's teammate this is an underrated thing and i think manifested itself

in the all-star game you're when you have all those great players on the floor and the games moving really fast so you got to make a lot of decisions. Every possession is a lot of decisions. You don't have to save 1% of your brain space thinking, I'm kind of worried what he's going to do. Like, is Kyle Lowry going to make the right decision? You know, you can reserve your brain for everything else. So I'm in on that.

The one guy that I think has a genuine case with you now is Jimmy Butler. We're going to get to him. Okay. I have a Lowry point. And I do this sometimes. As you know, nobody cares about NBA awards more than me, other than maybe you. We both care a lot.

You text everyone in your life. You text all, hey, do you have PG and 13-mile NBA? And you're just networking every person who has a vote to make sure you do the right thing, which I respect. More to make sure I'm not being crazy. Yeah. So one of my things that I feel very passionately about,

I think you have to look at all NBA a little bit differently than MVP. Sometimes a guy can be more valuable, but not necessarily be, you know, your second team all NBA or one of the 10 best players in the league. I think Lowry is like a top six MVP candidate, but not a, not a second team all NBA guard. That is, that is my favorite Simmons take in like recent NBA history. Thank you. I never pegged you in all my years working with you.

I never would have thought in 2020, we're going to be sitting down. Having a Lowry MVP thing? I'm not saying he's first. No, but Topps, like, I think... They're the second best team in the East. Second best team in the East. They're the third best team in the league right now. They have been the most impressive team

for two straight months. He is the most important player in the team. He is the fuel. He is the gasoline. The in the team he is the fuel he's the gasoline the competitiveness that he has night after night a little over the top last night i don't know if you saw that bucks game but he was when he did they bent under the guy he was he was reaching cp levels of like irritation of everyone the officials the other team i've i've single-handedly watched four games where they were down six or eight or whatever and he just got super competitive and willed them back

i think including at least two against the celtics but there's there's a competitiveness with him that he always had but now it's like he has it every night i think he really carries himself like a champ and i just love what they're doing i love when teams defend the title let me speak in even more sybil language okay i am we could sit here and research it i am not sure how many single games ever played by players ever changed the legacy of a player more than game six of the finals last year did for kyle lowry because you never thought of as good as everyone thought he was and as as much as by that time he had already washed away some of his early career playoff hiccups which I think were always a little overblown anyway like DeRozan was the one who was always like oh my god what's happening to him that game no one ever envisioned Kyle Lowry as the guy to come out in a finals

elimination game in the first five minutes and say we're not losing this game I don't care how many points I have to score I'm shooting I'm scoring we're winning the say, we're not losing this game. I don't care how many points I have to score. I'm shooting. I'm scoring. We're winning the game. So you're not just talking about one performance changing the legacy of someone's career, getting the monkey off their back, all that stuff. You're saying it actually changed who he was as a player going forward. Both. I think it changed the way we'll remember him. I think it changed his place in history.

I think it was. I mean, there will be, we could think of other games like that and like there will be games well here's a good one james worthy uh game 7 1988 perfect he became big game james after that game this is the same guy who threw away the 1984 finals with one of the dumbest plays in the history of the finals gerald henderson steel and then was kind of like oh man we got to make james tougher all this stuff and then by that game now now, it's like, all right, I'm big game James for the rest of my life. I have nothing more to prove to you and became this. But yeah, there's been some good ones.

That's a good one though. I agree with you. I love what he's done this year. And I think if you're going MVP, it's too early to do the list, but you got, you know, Giannis is there. You have two of the Lakers. Kawhi is probably lingering. Jokic.

Jokic is lingering. Harden's lingering. So that's your top five in some order, maybe top six. It's actually incredible to think about this. Think about Harden's start to the season when he was averaging 39 a game. Yeah.

And I think when we did our MVP podcast at this table a couple months ago, it was like a clear top three of LeBron, or maybe top four of Giannis, LeBron, Harden, Doncic. Yeah. Harden was probably second at that time. Now it's like, is he going to be on the ballot? He gets in play that he's not on the ballot.

If Toronto is the two seed, I think Lowry has to be at least that he's not on the ballot if toronto is the two seed i think lowry has to be at least like sixth or seventh on the list because somebody from toronto has to be represented i would pick him okay whatever good graces i've carved out in rockets twitter just went right out the window yeah they're fucking hey fuck you zach uh pascal siakam i think you know he's a you know, he's a notch. I think he's a notch below Tatum now. I just think Tatum is a more explosive, reliable scorer as a two-way player, whatever. But I think that's the right spot for him.

And also somebody who's been in some big games now. And, uh. Like it. I like it. All right. We're going next tier. Fourth tier. I got one two three

four five six seven eight players in this tier it's a big tier you're not gonna like this I mean now I'm excited I have number 14 Bam out of bio

even I think you're getting a little irrationally exuberant. I just wrote in capital letters, bam. I faded left. Here's the case. I just think he's really good. And I like what he does at the end of games. I like that that's your case.

He's a good basketball player. I watch him in these games, especially in these close games, and I'm like, man, that guy's your case. He's a good basketball player. I watch him in these games, especially in these close games, and I'm like, man, that guy's really good. That guy's not afraid of anybody. That guy has a tendency. I can tell you that. He is not afraid of anybody. Well, you did a great story about him.

This guy has a tendency of whatever the biggest play, like Kawhi style, where it would be like Kawhi wouldn't have a block the whole game, and then the biggest play of the game, he gets a block. Bam's in the right place with the right play and the right time of these games, even when he's not really having a good game, from what I've seen. So here's the cutting room floor of that Bam story. Didn't make the story. Meyer, maybe three weeks ago, right before I ran the story,

they played the Magic, and Bam was having a bad game, frustrated, missing shots. You could tell he was missing. All his little floaters are missing. But he was playing good defense and getting a shit ton of rebounds Myers Leonard went to him they're very close it went to him in like the third quarter and was like dude I know you're frustrated but you're the reason we're in the game like you're doing all the little things like keep doing what you're doing and down the stretch of that game if you watch like in the last two minutes he made like two insane block shots at

the rim like to your point like when the game was in the balance he had been having a bad offensive game but like he made winning plays when they needed him it's only the magic but like i believe so my case here for not having butler in this spot is i think he's more important to miami than butler is i i disagree well okay so he's i so that's correct to me in the sense that they don't have anyone who can replicate what he does. But I think Jimmy's offenses and shot creation is overall makes him more important. The alpha dogginess of him, especially when we get into these playoffs, he's not going to be afraid. Who's scoring baskets for them? I feel like you could patch it together.

I'm saying if my choice was I lose Bam or I lose Jimmy Butler, if I lose Bam, I'm not that's it. I have no chance. I respect your argument. I just think against when you're talking about we're playing the Celtics, the Sixers, the Raptors.

You're very pro-Jimmy Butler. The Bucs. I just think you need a guy that can go get a bucket. And without Jimmy, they don't have that. Seems like you're angling for the next exclusive interview with him in South Beach. Jimmy, can I come here every 15 minutes? I know what's behind that comment, so I'm just going to leave it alone. Oh.

He's averaging 21, 7, and 6. Free throws off the charts this year. He is shooting 45%, 24.6 from threes. Only taking 2.4 threes a game. Threes are a problem. But is he averaging 10 foul shots a game? The nine free throws a game, you know that's near and dear to my heart. I love when guys get to the line.

This is the Tatum thing. Tatum is now getting the line seven, eight times a game. Guess what? He's better. All right, so I have Bam at 14. You disagree. You're really going to disagree with 15. I just, if I'm really going to disagree with it, I want to take a guess.

First of all, we haven't gotten to Russ yet. Well, we just did. to rush yet. Well, we just did. Okay. I don't, why do I disagree? You think, you think I would think it's too high?

No, I guess you wouldn't disagree. This is the right spot for him. You could make a case. He should be 14. The way he's been playing the last two months, 32, eight and seven,

whatever he's doing, what he's doing physically and athletically night to night and goes back to the whole superhero thing we were talking about earlier, where this is one of those guys, like if they play the Lakers in round two, he will be going really hard into Anthony Davis and LeBron James and Dwight Howard and JaVale McGee.

And he will be like a batter in with those guys, like a running back. He will not be afraid of them physically. And I think that matters. And going back to when we were talking about the Lakers before, there's a physicality that they have with those guys like a running back. He will not be afraid of them physically. And I think that matters. Going back to when we were talking about the Lakers before, there's a physicality that they have that really frightens me. I think it's their best asset to win the title is in a playoff series.

It's going to get rough. The elbows are going to come up. People are going to, and they are the best at that. And Russ and a smaller lineup, it's going to be fucking weird. I don't know how they are the best at that and Russ and a smaller lineup it's gonna be fucking weird I don't know how they handle the Davis thing if they don't just maybe they let him do 40 points a game just give it to him but Russ is you know

that's my case I think he's I think he might well it's just hard to argue with any of the players above him feels low feels low to me feels feels disrespectful like we could have put. Feels low. Feels low to me. Feels disrespectful. Like we could have put him 13 after Lowry. Bam over Russ feels disrespectful to me. And I love Bam.

You're talking about playoff histories? I mean, not that Russ has like a sterling playoff history. Well, that was why I downgraded him. He's in his 30s now. And I can't remember five good Russ playoff games in my life. I remember a lot of bad ones. Anyway. Number 16, Chris Middleton. Did Jimmy Butler do something to you?

I haven't met 17. Who have we, is Kyrie not in consideration because of his injury? He's out for the season. Consideration for what? I just had to ask. I had to ask. Kyrie?

He's out for the year. That's what I'm asking. I'm saying if he were healthy, would he be? If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. I said that wrong. That would have been a great joke if I landed it. He did hit a top four shot in the history of the NBA. Great.

It was three years ago. Barack Obama was the president. Four years ago. Four years ago. So I have, I'll just give you the rest and we can go through it. I have Bam 14. You're against that. Russ 15.

You thought that was a tiny bit too low. I don't know. Chris Middleton 16. I will say in defense of that, as you know, as a Celtics guy, he's been a killer. Sneakily has a little bit of playoff killer in him. Also, at some point, we just have to reward this Bucs thing. And whether there's just a huge chasm now between what works in the regular season

and what works in the playoffs, I don't know. Celtics fans are kind of spooked by him because of his playoff heroics. There's a little like, get the ball out of his hands. He's got a little of that factor going on in Boston, which is fun. Also, he's having an awesome season. Great season. 17, Jimmy Butler. You will not

get the next exclusive interview with Jimmy Butler. I'll tell you that right now. I might be able to pull it off. I could just apologize to him. Number 18, Jalen Brown. Okay. Number 19, Donovan Mitchell. Number 20, Chris Paul. Number 21, Bradley Beal. That is the end of that group. I love that Brad gets this good.

Jalen Brown's too high. Okay, so let's talk about that. So, because I did Middleton, I did Butler, I did Jalen Brown. Here's the case for Brown. Him and Tatum together is what makes the Celtic team special, not just for this year, but for the next 12. Those two guys together is one of the biggest advantages anyone has in the league right now because they're going to be locked up long-term,

whereas you have Kawhi and Paul George, that might be two years. LeBron and Davis, that might be two to three. These two guys are going to be together, I feel like, for the whole decade. Now we know in basketball, who knows? Things change. Somebody gets unhappy. You never know. But I think this is about as safe a bet as we get to a Curry-Thompson type of situation

where two guys just look at each other and go, this is just fucking awesome together. Why would we ever break this up? We compliment each other beautifully. And I think Jalen is a fantastic defender. There was a play in the Houston game before he got hurt when Russ had the ball, ISO'd the whole thing and Russ is trying to do his thing to go by him. And it was like a boxer. He threw like seven different moves at him. And Jalen was just doing this and Russ finally gave up and took a shitty shot. But I was like, man, this guy can stay in front of Russ. He can guard LeBron in the low post. Um, he could switch on to anybody. He can play the five. Him and Tatum can switch off at the five. If they go small, the flexibility

that he gives is uh really important in my opinion so that's why I had him there and he's a 20 point a game scorer who's gonna make four out of every 10 threes he he he's a better because he can look a little robotic when he's trying to create his own shot or create a shot for somebody else I think people are under rate his scoring ability a little bit. He comes off as kind of a scavenger. He sort of scavenges his way into 20 points a game, but you can't really scavenge your way into 20 points a game totally in the NBA.

True. I just think, again— He's shooting almost 50%, by the way. Shooting really well. I just think, again, the hand the ball to this guy and i trust them to run my offense factor that the three guys you put right below him donovan mitchell chris paul and brad beal have just is amplified even more in a playoff setting well all right so let's go through them one at a time the mitchell thing i've just watched too many times where it's like i'm our best guy and they're

his best guy let's go toe-to toe to toe and he loses. You've also seen him win in the playoffs like that though. Against OKC, that's it. He ended Carmelo Anthony's career functionally. Okay, so that's one time. See, he's young. Like he's, one time you look through the playoffs, like Bam has never done that. So you put him above Jalen Brown?

Yes. Okay. Love Jalen Brown. I had Jalen Brown on my all-star team. Listen, there's no wrong answer here. Chris Paul. Well, all right, the Donovan Mitchell thing. Why do you think it hasn't worked with him and Conley playing together? Because Mitchell is really like a zero guard, as we used to call it,

where he's not a point guard, he's not a two card, but he needs the ball in his hands. He's a good guard. Yeah, he's a good guard. He's zero guard. He's good. He's getting better as a passer. He's a good guard. Yeah, he's a guard. He's zero guard. He's good. He's getting better as a passer. He's whatever he is.

I think the primary reason it hasn't worked is that Mike Conley hasn't been good. No matter who you put Mike Conley next to, he hasn't been good this year. Chris Paul, fantastic. What a season. Yep. A possible top 10 MVP candidate

just because of how weird that OKC team is. And it doesn't make sense that they're this good. But it actually does make sense when you watch them because they just play really well together. It's like sometimes basketball is not that complicated. Don't beat themselves. It's like, hey, these five guys play well together and that's it.

Yeah, they don't beat themselves. They play at their pace and play good defense. They're good. Can I ask you something that will probably get aggregated and then used against you? I couldn't possibly have been more excited for this. Yes, go. A, is Chris Paul tradable this summer?

B, would they trade him to get off that salary? A, yes, and B, yes. Pure speculation. Aggregators. Zach says Chris Paul's available. Yes and yes. I will say that. That's how I feel as well.

I just feel like Oklahoma City is going to take the long view on everything. But you and I are in the camp of go the other way. You get one more wing and you guys might actually win a couple playoff series what are you doing i you have a nice team i would have it would have been fun but like i said i think they're going to take the long view can you give me three candidates that you could see if he became available what might make sense this will be fun again pure speculation aggregators are like oh my god get a blog post i think they would circle back and say to miami hey you want to you know any interest restart those decision discussions rather that we that we had

um the hilarious outcome would be iguodala being in the trade um i'm not reporting. New York. You asked me for a third, so I'm going to go try and give you a third. The third would have been Minnesota, but they got their guy. The most coveted guy who might never make an all-star team again in the rest of his career. Got to get D'Angelo Russell. Guys, if it takes helicopters and tours and unprotected or lightly protected lottery picks gotta have d'angelo russell i'm i'm making philly the third that's perfectly fine i was gonna say um i was gonna go if not philly who's your first one i was gonna go orlando just for just

for craziness oh well that he wouldn't be happy with that, though. That's true. Chris's happiness is important. What was your first team? Miami, just because they had already had discussions. Miami, New York, Philly. Okay. It's a fun.

Go to town, aggregators. Chris Paul, plant-based diet. Have you thought about going on a plant-based diet after reading all the Chris Paul plant-based You know why I haven't thought about that? Because it would suck? Because meat tastes good. Yeah. And I would like to continue eating some.

Guess what I like? Pork chops, steaks. You know what, though? I don't eat a lot of red meat. I don't think that makes me any better. Like, I guess we should, to save Earth, which really should be our number one goal. Yeah, you'd think. To save Earth.

You'd think. Like, we're sitting here sweating the top 25 best playoff. Like, really, we should save Earth because it's burning. It's all over for Earth. Well, let me get the list done first, then we'll save Earth. But I do like meat. I'm sorry. I think it tastes good.

Well, Chris Paul stopped eating. Can I eat fish? Yeah. There's so many fish. What was the Silicon Valley thing? A pesca pescatarian? No, but wasn't? A pesca pescatarian? No, but wasn't it a pesca pescatarian? I eat fish that only eat other fish or something. Chris Paul, really good season. And guess what?

In the All-Star game, 10 guys out there at the end. He was the Lowry of his team. I don't have to spend one second thinking about is Chris Paul going to screw up you know what I think he's too low I think I screwed that one up you think you think Bam being six spots ahead of Chris Paul might be problematic might have been

maybe should have run this list by you this is why I didn't want to run the list by you I wanted to have a couple mess ups okay last three Rod Beal would you put Chris Paul 14th Behind Larry and Siakam The more I'm thinking about it I think I made a mistake It's okay

But you don't know If I get to the second round game 5 Is he going to pull a hamstring There's a history now of Chris Paul getting hurt In April and May Not since he's plant based That's a good point. The plant-based Chris Paul.

PBCP3. Is dairy out then? I don't know. You'd have to ask him. You should do it in your exclusive sit-down interview in the middle of Oklahoma City. You should go down there and talk to him. Bradley Beal.

Bradley Beal, number 21. Hasn't played defense in a year and a half, two years? When was the last time you saw Bradley guard somebody with any gusto? It's been a rough couple of years. He's handling exactly how I'd handle it because he's basically on a pickup team. And he goes out there. He gets a run. Gets a run in.

Takes some shots. Tries not to get hurt on the defensive end. Just trying to get through the year. But is really good. Now, they might make the eighth seed in the playoffs and lose to the Bucs by... You might see a gambling line for round one where the Bucs are favored by like 22 and a half. Do you think in five years, if Chris Ball and Isak Banga run into each other at a restaurant. And Isak is like,

I'm sorry, Bradley Beal and Isak Banga run into each other at a restaurant and Isak Banga walks up to Brad's table and is like, Hey, Brad. We played together. Great to see you. Do you think Brad Beal will know who it is?

Oh, yeah. Hey. Hey, you. Hey, man. I think he gets a hey, man. Hey, man. what you been doing that's the end of that tier let's take a break to talk about all the great stuff on the ringer podcast network this week i mentioned bachelor party the best podcast i was on in 2020 so far me julia and Mallory figuring out a Bachelor in Paradise fantasy draft

based off the new Bachelor contestants. You can check out Ringer Dish, Ringer NFL Show, JJ Redick, Dave Chang, Ryan Rosillo had Craig Kilborn on. We did a rewatch of both about Vision Quest. Cousin Sal had the Super 70 Sports Twitter feed guy on Against All Odds.

Awesome. You can check that out as well. The Press Box is covering the debate. The Big Picture did a really cool music podcast this week. We have Larry Wilmore. I mentioned Dave Chang. Did I mention Dave Chang? Dave Chang had Huey Lewis on his podcast. So that happened.

Check out all these podcasts. All you do is go to Spotify, search for Ringer. Things will pop up. You can do the same thing for Apple. You can do is go to Spotify, search for Ringer. Things will pop up. You can do the same thing for Apple. You can do the same thing for any device that you have. I would also hope that you go to Spotify exclusively for Music Exists,

the new music podcast with Chuck Klosterman and Chris Ryan and The Hottest Take, where if you remember, I had Adam Carolla on the other day. He was hilarious. We also taped some Hottest Takes. You can hear one of the ones that we did this week

only on Spotify. Search for hottest take. That's what's going on with the Ringer Podcast Network. Back to this one with Zach Lowe. So that's 21 guys. Yeah. So we did Larry Siakam. I moved Chris Paul up. Next here, Adebayo,

Westbrook, Middleton, Butler, Brown, Mitchell. Okay. We got four guys left. And Bradley Beal. Four guys left. I'm excited. So we have a special tier here. So here are some notable guys that haven't made it. Let's see how many notables that haven't made it.

It's because we have four spots left. So notables that haven't made it. Yeah. Kemba Walker. Yeah. Ben Simmons. Mm-hmm. Old Adipo. Mm-hmm. So that. Oladipo.

So that's three notables already. The artist formerly known as Oladipo. Rudy Gobert. Yeah, Rudy's not making it. Whoa! Rudy can, nah. Porzingis. He wasn't making it either.

John Morant. He's on there as a candidate. CJ McCollum. Yeah,'s on there as a candidate. CJ McCollum. Yeah, he's on as a candidate. All the Spurs. They didn't make the list. Team USA, Stallworth, Devin Booker. Not going to make the playoffs.

Okay. Who would you have in the him versus Town towns trying to force their way out gambling line, Booker or towns more likely this summer. I think Booker is minus one. Towns has been appeased. So I guess I would have to say Booker just because towns now the Russell thing will buy them time. Let's go with this for 20 seconds.

We could get a bright side of the sun blog post about it. Simmons wonders if Devin Booker is going to be long for the sun. They already hate you over there because of the Team USA stuff. Yeah, I was right. You should have played. Guess what? They're not a playoff team. They're competitive, though.

They are. They have a roadmap. They have a lineup that makes sense, personnel that makes sense, and they're competitive. When you watch the Suns play now, you're like, this is a basketball team that makes sense, personnel that makes sense, and they're competitive. Like when you watch the Suns play now, you're like, this is a basketball team that makes sense. And by Suns standards,

that's like a home run. That's a huge victory. You know what didn't make sense? Like three-fourths of the moves they made the last three years. I understand that they didn't necessarily... I'm positive TJ Warren is somebody that is okay to have on my team.

No? Gave him away. Okay, so give me the last four. I'm positive TJ Warren is somebody that is okay to have on my team no? gave him away my next two tiers, two people on it and they're next to each other for a reason 22 Ben Simmons, 23 Kemba Walker I think both of those guys would be higher except I have no idea when we're going to see them again the Ben Simmons thing is absolutely frightening

as a long suffering bad back guy who's been in pretty good shape the last few years, but has had been derailed twice. When it passes a certain point, you don't come back in two weeks. It is a months and months injury before you feel a hundred percent. It feels like that's what's happening here. And it makes me super nervous. Kemba, we talked about earlier. I don't know what's going on with his knee, and I don't think this is just, oh, my knee's a little sore. I really am worried that it's more than that.

Okay. Simmons certainly will meet. skeptics until he shows in the playoffs that a good team will not relegate him to standing in the dunker spot waiting for stuff to happen because he can't have the ball. That didn't happen against Brooklyn last year. It was great. But once they face a real playoff team with a real defense, the numbers are what they are. He is. So Kawhi is the captain of this team. Adebayo's in there. We talked about him earlier. And Ben Simmons is another one.

The last minute of the game has a habit of making a gigantic defensive or grabbing a rebound. He's Deion Sanders right now. He's your number one. I remember tweeting about this when it happened. But I'm down one or I'm down two with five seconds left of my teammates shooting the second free throw. Most likely guys to get the rebound off the miss. Right. It's like Simmons and Kawhi and probably LeBron

because he'd be allowed to foul everybody. But, well, he would. Let's be honest. He would. I'm out for the sit down interview. Yeah, you're way out on that one. Oh, that one. That ship sailed seven years ago.

But Simmons does enough stuff that I think if he was healthy, I would have had him eight spots higher. He's been Philly's best player of the season. And I say that as a Joel Embiid true believer, like a Joel Embiid can win the MVP someday. True believer. Simmons this season, start to finish, has been their best player. Now, I think from now, even if Ben were healthy, I think when Joel gets it in gear and gets ready to go, he's just

in another universe. Plant-based Joel Embiid? If that's how he wins the MVP? Pesca-Pescatarian Joel Embiid? Whatever it takes. And Kemba, who knows? All right, number 24, I have Zion Williamson. Oh my god,

I forgot about Zion. And then Morant is 25. No, I was going to let you pick between Sabonis, Jamal Murray, Brogdon, SGA, old Depot,

Gobert holiday, McCollum, Morant, or Ingram. One of those guys is our 25th guy. Zion, you and I haven't talked about it on podcast. I loved,

I loved listening to you when, cause you don't watch college basketball and you just learn about these guys when they reach the league and a year, the passing was what jumped out to you. I heard you talk about that on a pod where you're like, Oh my God, I didn't realize he passed like this. And it's kind of like the secret sauce with all of this,

where he's this physical freak. He has no parallel to anything. Nothing. I've never seen anybody like him ever. He's an all time hall of's this physical freak. He has no parallel to anything. Nothing. I've never seen anybody like him. Ever. He's an all-time Hall of Fame athletic freak, but then also knows what to do out of a double team and in transition can throw a bounce

pass 50 feet and what a delight. What an utter complete delight. He has no idea what he's doing defensively yet. Like none, zero. It's a little rough. And the Lakers game last night was not great, but athletically, he can make up for, he can fuck up and still

block something. One-on-one when the game was simple, he held his own against Davis on both sides of the floor. Davis couldn't score easily over him in the post, and he went at Davis, and Davis' length is a problem when he's facing up attacking Davis, but he got him a few times too. He made layups around him and over him and he he is uh he's legit he's legit

zion the one through eight is going to be a problem for them because they just don't match up with the lakers not that a lot of people do i was more excited about it until i watched last night and they were like hey here's an idea we idea. We'll have Drew guard LeBron. It's like, no, don't do that. Well, not a lot of teams have that answer. I don't really know what the answer is because Ingram can't guard LeBron. Josh Hart seems like he should be a better answer.

But part of the reason why the Lakers are so good and why they like to play so big is because for some teams, they'll just put their power forward on LeBron. So that would be Zion in this case. Physically, you're not moving Zion. At the very least, you're not backing him down toward the rim. You can would be zion in this case like physically you're not moving zion at the very least you're not backing him down toward him you can maybe get around him and this and that you're not moving him but then it's like well who's going to guard ad and then well who's guarding javel who laugh at him all you want can get offensive

rebounds if you put small guys on him like it's it's like there's a trick yeah there's a trickle down because of their size that is tricky i have to to admit defeat on Dwight. Everybody does. I vowed before the air there was no way he could be a productive rotation guy for this entire season and now we are

Do you think the Lakers brass thought this was going to happen? They hoped it would happen but there was not any no one You could actually make the case he should be playing more. I think they've been

really careful with it but man. LeBron knows how to play with a big guy who can get his hands up in the right spots. Zion might be too low. He's really good, man. He's really, really good. Yeah, it's so early for him. It's early.

You're right. He's played like 12 games or something. But I think out of everybody we just mentioned that first 24, if we did this list again seven weeks from now, he could potentially be 10 spots higher, and it would be shocking. All right, so Sabonis, Murray, Brogdon, SGA, Oladipo, Gobert, Holiday, McCollum, Morant, or Ingram. Who do you have? That's a lot of dudes.

Read it to me one more time. It doesn't matter. I will just... You want to go Oladipo. No, because of the injury. It's too soon. In a year maybe Yeah But not for this

Not to win a ring this year Because he just hasn't been shooting While he's missed a couple games In a row now I'm inclined to go with One of the Pelicans So just pick one Ingram or Holiday

I'll pick Ingram Okay Because again Just give him the ball And he's making stuff happen Like he's doing this against There's something about him That I think his numbers are a little bit better than he actually is as a player.

I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just that defensively he doesn't scare you and he doesn't play with a ton of force, but he's doing like second quarter, third quarter last night against the Lakers. He was cooking the Lakers and he's like, he's doing that against good teams in meaningful games. What do you think? Like we have a sense with Tatum. I know what he's going to look like three years from now. Like he'll have more facial hair, he'll have more refined moves. What does Ingram look like? What does Ingram look like three, four years from now? Is it possible for him to get

skinnier? I don't know. I don't know what is 27-year-old Brandon Ingram look like, what's his game like, because I watch him, and he still feels like a babe in the woods a little bit. Like his body, he's a little gangly still, but yet he can put up 20 points in eight minutes, and everything seems like he hasn't totally figured stuff out yet, but he's torching people. I don't know what his ceiling is. I can't torching people. I don't know what his ceiling is.

I can't figure him out. I don't know what the NBA comp is either because you want to say Durant, but I think people are doing this with Tatum too. Please stop comparing people to Kevin Durant, including Tatum. No. I think you kind of want to do it. I'm not doing it. Durant is over here.

That's like comparing people to Curry. You can't. He's one-on-one. There's no other Durant. We're not seeing another seven-foot- i think the duran thing is only because you start mapping in your head of okay like who is the superstar number one guy on a championship team who averages who tops out at like five assists a game five five and a half assists who's not because tatum is not going to be hard and he's not going to be donchic he's not going to be you know name he's not going to be lebron he's not going to be

putting up 30 and 10 i don't think i don't think that's the prototype for him and so that's why people start looking at durant or kobe or guys like that of like who is that kind of prototype we have the guy it's easy it's t-mac okay that's that's pretty good that's the that's the model he was a little better passer than that like but but t-mac was a better all-around player but i also think tatum's 22 and by in two years i just meant t-mac had seasons when he averaged six and a half seven assists a game but that was seven eight years into his career like do i think tatum could blossom that i just t-mac's a good one i don't like when people like he's like durant nobody's like durant we're not seeing durant again it's not happening so

when you compare brandon ingram or tatum to durant it's like stop that's my case okay i don't i just think feel like he's there's some people are freak i don't think we're seeing yannis again no that's a that's a zion one where it's like this is a totally unprecedented thing like the human species evolved into a different thing here that we haven't seen before and i feel like zion this is kind of what barkley was like he's just the 2.0 bark lefty barkley but and just the jump mid-80s barkley you saw in person it was saying it was the same like helplessness of like oh my god. Yeah. Like,

I think if you went and looked at some of these guys that are above Zion on this list, I think already opposing coaches worry more about how are we going to stop Zion than they do about Donovan Mitchell? Maybe not that well, probably Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brown, Chris Middleton, Bam,

Siakam. I think Zion is already whatever games in like the opposing coaches. Like we don't really have any answers for what's going on here. You can see, I, like we said before, you look at how the defense is handling certain things. And if they're trying to like post him up, it causes a chain reaction with the five guys on the floor, because if you can get him an entry pass he's catching the entry pass it's not like somebody's going around him and tipping the ball i'm stunned that he can carry the frame he has and still be as athletic that's and that's what barkley had too where

you're just like you know he shouldn't be able to second jump like that you watch him jump from 10 15 feet away like i was last night and it's just like you see how wide he is and then before you've blinked he's doing a chin up on the rim and they're like that just shouldn't that happens so fast and the guy is wider than anyone it just shouldn't be i think he's the most impressive rookie that I've seen in a long time. Where are you on the, if they make the playoffs and he keeps playing like this, he should get rookie of the year over Moran. So the odds shifted.

He was like, he's like plus 450 now. He was like, you know, 15 to one a couple weeks ago. But where are you as a voter? I think Moran's been spectacular. I think Moran has played 51 games or something, so I think he's going to finish with like 68, 70 something. You know, I don't know what exactly. He's missed some games.

He would have to miss like the last month of the season for this to become a discussion. I think it's going to be a discussion. If they make the playoffs, you watch. I think it's going to be a close race. How many would Zion have to get at that point? 50 games? No, I think he'd have like 35 games played or something like that. Oh, he's not getting it then. I think it's gonna be a close race how many would zion have to get at that point 50 games no i think you'd have like 35 games played or something oh he's not getting it

then i think it's gonna be a discussion if they really playoffs yeah i'm with you i'm gonna probably i i'm i it's hard for me because this isn't a this isn't a case where josh has been really good josh was like a borderline all-star he's like a borderline all-star candidate i thought he earned it i also what he's done's done from an identity standpoint with that team and the confidence they have and stuff has been as impressive as anything. He's already kind of the guy. It's pretty rare for a rookie. Zion is just talking about guys coming to the league and doing that stuff.

I remember when David Robinson was a rookie. What did he spend? He was four years in in Navy, right? Then another two years. He came in the league. He was 25, but he, or 24, but he was, this was what it was like where you're just like, oh my God. He was like more than almost anyone ever in the league.

You looked at David Robinson. It was like, that dude is a Greek God. Yeah. Look at that guy. That's not even a real thing. Right. The arms. It was like, but he was like six years older than Zion.

I think for guys this decade, it was like, phew. But he was like six years older than Zion. I think for guys this decade, it's pretty rare. When Blake finally played, but he had missed a year, and then he finally came in in that first Blake year, it was like immediately, everyone's like, oh my God, this guy. I think Rose was like that too, his first Chicago season. But I think for this decade, I don't really remember. Davis even.

No, it wasn't the same. That was also the not a lot of logging, a lot of Charlotte games that year. His rookie year. Don't really remember a lot of Anthony Davis conversations. No. It was kind of happening. It's fun to look back at his rookie year. I bet it's better than we remember, but it wasn't like this. It wasn't like

the axis of the league has stopped to watch this guy play. I hope he stays healthy forever. I know he'll do a plant-based diet in about 12 years, but for now, keep doing what you're doing, Zion. Zach Lowe, this was a pleasure. It was always fun, my friend. Good to see you.

Good to see you too. All right, thanks to ZipRecruiter. Thanks to Zach Lowe. Thanks to SimpliSafe. Everything you need in a home security system. An army of highly trained security experts ready to dispatch police to your home at a moment's notice, 24-7.

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If six podcasts wasn't enough, I don't know what to tell you. Back Sunday night with Russillo. And since we talked a lot of basketball today on this pod, plus we talked a lot of basketball last Sunday, I'm going to promise you something. Sunday with Russillo. He's coming over. We're going to eat beforehand.

How'd you book that? It's going to get weird. It's time to just get weird with Priscilla. Not as weird as you probably got with Craig Kilbourne. Was that weird? That was pretty weird. Oh, it was very weird. Yeah, that was weird.

Yeah. Awkward even at times. Hard to hang, yeah. Yeah. This will get weird. We're going to go in some directions. We're bringing back Jim Corner. If you have any ideas for subjects that we should hit on Sunday night, email us at themailbagattheringer.com.

Enjoy the weekend. See you Sunday. I feel it's within On the wayside I'm a bruised soul I never was And I don't have To be