The Bill Simmons Podcast - The 5-Year Oscars, Plus Talking NBA and The State of Basketball Coverage with Rachel Nichols | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: February 21, 2020

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan to revisit the 2015 Oscar movies, including ‘The Grand Budapest Hotel,’ ‘Birdman,’ ‘Dear White People,’ ‘Gone Girl,’ ‘Boyhood,’ and many more (2:28). Then Bill is joined by ESPN’s Rachel Nichols to discuss crafting a sports show, the pro basketball Hall of Fame, interviewing NBA players, current NBA stars, NBA draft mistakes, journalism in 2020, Roger Goodell, and more (32:3). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and then season one is over. Coming up, I'm going to do the five-year Oscars with Sean Fantasy and Chris Ryan as well as a long conversation

with Rachel Nichols, our friend from ESPN. That's all coming Rachel Nichols, our friend from ESPN. That's all coming up. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, Chris Ryan and Sean Fennessey are here. Every year we do the five-year Oscars. We wait until the Oscars has happened five years before. And we re-litigate it. We go backwards and we decide whether everyone made the right call.

After the Oscars happened, got some feedback from people and they were like, where the fuck was the five-year Oscars? And it was like, well, it hasn't been five years yet, motherfucker. Relax.

Chill out. The Oscars happened on February 22nd, 2015. Well, guess what? We're at the five-year mark. It's not our fault they moved the Oscars up. Okay, motherfucker!

Motherfucker! Who reached out to you? I saw some emails. Okay, okay. A couple of to you? I saw some emails. A couple of really hurt emails. People have hurt. Like the president of the academy? He was like, where's your podcast about this? Michael Keaton was like, hey, man.

Didn't know Birdman still made it. So we're going to go through. We're going to do the four acting categories. We're going to do director, and then we'll end with picture. Can you remind Chris and I of your rules for this? Yeah. We were trying to remember this. All right.

I barely remember them myself. Okay. Here are my rules. This is the apex mountain of five-year Oscar bots. The apex mountain of theories. Five years later, you look back at the year, and you want to think, oh, it was that year when this happened and this stands out. And if I'm looking at, which I'm doing right now, I'm looking at the Wikipedia of all the categories with the winners and I'm upset at a winner or I'm surprised that there was somebody that didn't get it. You know, like we talked about Ben Affleck, we're going to talk about For Gone Girl. He wasn't

even nominated. And now I look at the list of the five and I'm like, wow, we didn't nominate Ben Affleck. But you know, here's what happened in 2014 leading into the 15 Oscars. Just some movies for people out there to remember. This was Birdman, American Sniper, Boyhood, Grand Budapest Hotel, Imitation Games, Selma, Whiplash, Gone Girl. Did I mention Gone Girl yet? This was The Judge,

which looked like the most Oscar-y movie on paper. And it's the opposite of that. Yeah, never really got there. Big for Downey superfan Chris Ryan, though. Yeah, true. Big for Robert Duvall's incontinence, too. This was a disgusting movie. It's a deep cut.

If you haven't seen The Judge, you don't know what I'm talking about. This was interstellar. I would say it's probably a C- movie year would be my take, looking back, thinking about it, especially compared to this year, Sean. I thought it was a pretty decent blockbuster year because you've got Guardians of the Galaxy. You got the first Captain America movie.

You got Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, which is pretty good. 22 Jump Street. That was fun. You know, Interstellar was a big hit. Edge of Tomorrow. So the blockbuster stuff was actually pretty cool.

It's the Oscar stuff is, this really feels like one of the worst in a long time. It's the collection of movies that are nominated here compared to actually what happened when we were, a lot of people were making their best of the decade lists and movies from this year were coming up like under the skin.

And that's based barely even nominated in any of these categories. And Edge of Tomorrow, I think that's one where if we redid this, I think that would get a Best Picture nomination because I think that's become one of the most beloved. It has. 2050 movies. It has. That's why we love to do this exercise because I think you get caught up

sometimes in the moment with certain movies, certain narratives. I'll be interested to see if it happens with Parasite five years from now. I thought Parasite was a really good movie. I'll be curious to see five years from now if we're like, wow, that actually won Best Picture. I think we will look at it shocked because we're probably going to get a terrible movie to win next year, but I don't think people are going to regret choosing it as Best Picture. But I think all three of us think Once Upon a Time

will be the one that we kind of thought should have won. I don't know. We'll see. I mean, it might have. Depends who you ask. Yeah. There was so much warm regard for that movie that it's different from this movie, too. Like, in 2014, there were a lot of good movies

that just weren't even really recognized at all. It's also pretty cool to look back, because for this year that we're talking about in this pod, the Bong Joon-ho movie

from this year was Snowpiercer, which had such a troubled production and was delayed getting out into theaters and now seems like, you know, will be part of, like,

this guy's, the sort of Americanized version of this guy's career as, like, a foundational movie. That movie stars Captain America. That felt, in the moment, like that movie was really underrated. It got this cool mythology

around it, though, because we knew that Harvey Weinstein was kind of fucking with it, so it got a bit of a cult built around it. But it just didn't, it should have come out like a year earlier, and it did. One of my other favorite movies came out this year.

Not that it matters for Oscars. Can I guess what it is? Is it nonstop? Babadook. Babadook. Yeah. That's a top seven 2010s horror movie.

That movie had like, was that on Netflix? I feel like that had a really good Netflix run probably we still had I think more movies were popping up

on Netflix after theatrical release at this time and we're getting Second Lives whereas that happens less frequently now there's also

a couple smaller movies Force Majeure which now just got remade as a welfare thing I thought that was good Dear White People was a memorable 2014 movie.

What about John Wick? I mean, we didn't even talk about John Wick. This is Inherent Vice? Well, so the John Wick thing is interesting because that movie didn't really fully blossom until it hit cable. That's right. So I remember in 2015, I did a bunch of Grantland Oscar stuff with Wesley and Chris Connolly. I don't even think we'd talked about John wick once during like, we did a huge preview show and then we did an actual show and it was the,

the tale of John wick. Now you think of it and you're like, I don't think he would have, I don't think it gets any nominations, but it's hard to separate this movie from 2014. Chef was the share as well. All right, let's do the categories.

We're going to blow through this. Best actor. The nominees, Steve Carell and Foxcatcher. Never understood that one. Bradley Cooper and American Sniper.

Benedict Cumberbatch, Imitation Game. Michael Keaton and Birdman, who was the heavy favorite as we went into this. And then it flipped because the winner was Eddie Redmayne for The Theory of

Everything. He played Stephen Hawking. This didn't sit right with me at the time. I don't feel that strongly about it five years later where there's somebody I look at and I go, that person should have won. At gunpoint, I'd probably

say Keaton, but I don't feel strongly about it. There's also, I would say, maybe a better than 50% chance that that will be the last great Michael Keaton role that he would get nominated for. So he probably may have missed the last opportunity. What about Spider-Man Homecoming? I thought there was good work there. Yeah, I mean, he doesn't make that many movies. No. No, you know, this is a very bad win.

This is like a classic. The Oscars fucked it up. And, you know, he won the BAFTA. He won the SAG Award. He won all, Eddie Redmayne won all those awards, even though everybody wanted Michael Keaton to win. And it just, it reminds me a lot of the Renee Zellweger Judy win this year,

where it was just like, everybody just decided that Eddie Redmayne deserved an Oscar for playing Stephen Hawking. Real, real person, high degree of difficulty, where he has to make a transformation. They always reward that. And has a single human

rewatched this movie since 2016? Redmayne's in a weird zone because like, aside from those magical beasts movies, what they are? Yeah, just keep going with that.

Like, all he does is make movies where you're like, did that movie ever come out? but he's nominated for an Oscar? What was the movie last year, Shape of Water? Two years ago, yeah. Two years ago, we'll never have a conversation about it again in our lives. And The Theory of Everything is another one like that.

Birdman was a really cool movie experience. And I think from a rewatchability standpoint, has not really stood the test of time not fired up it's kind of come and gone it has

I think that's right so maybe that's why we're not more upset about this Michael Keen thing is there a case for Bradley Cooper in American Sniper because I would say

that was five years later the most the most important movie of 2014 from a box office impact putting people in a different position in their careers, kind of what it stood for.

This is going to sound weird, but that it comes out, what, a year and a half before the 2016 election? And the way it resonated and all the money it made and people were like, wow, this is crazy. Never expected this. And it's like, wow, this is crazy. Never expected this. And it's like, maybe we shouldn't have been surprised at all. You're absolutely right. I mean, it was a major red state hit. It was just huge among a certain movie-going audience. I mean, it's like over $300 million.

It was a major, major movie. I think it was $400 million. Yeah. But this was a classic. The bubbles didn't think this was going to be a thing. And meanwhile, in three-fourths of the united states people love this movie and went multiple times totally it was it was a holiday phenomenon and uh i don't it's not i don't really love it like i and i don't want to sound like a cultural elite i don't love it either it's not i don't

think it's one of clint eastwood's best movies like this and he's made a lot of movies like this about real life people who have complicated stories and are here seen by some as heroes and seen by some as villains. The story of this guy's life in the movie is fascinating. There's just an incredible New Yorker story about him. Reckless Kyle. Yes.

But I would encourage people to read that over re-watching American Sniper. So you would go Keaton here. Well, I'm going to... The biggest omission and the one that really just sucks and the Steve Carell thing sucks and the Steve Carell thing I like Steve Carell

but Foxcatcher is not a good movie and shouldn't have been roared in anyway and Affleck not getting it for Gone Girl it bothered me when it happened and now as that movie has become what it's become and we did a rewatch watchables about it recently he's really good in that movie

and it's a great example of the characters the Venn diagram of Ben Affleck and the character he's really good in that movie. And it's a great example of the characters, the Venn diagram of Ben Affleck and the character. There's something there. It's probably the last great Ben Affleck leading man performance. I haven't seen the way back yet. What about the accountant? Yeah.

As I said, but I thought that was a hard part and it was a part, you know, there's the legendary story about Jon Hamm could have had that part. And then Matthew Weiner said he couldn't have it. And if Jon Hamm's in Gone Girl, is that a different movie? Is it better? Is it worse? I don't know. Has Jon Hamm played 11 FBI agents since then? Maybe he's an FBI agent in Gone Girl.

Yeah. I mean, the Academy, I don't know if they don't like Ben Affleck, but they just don't respect him as an actor. He's never been nominated for an acting performance. He won for screenplay in 96 or 98. And he won picture for Argo, and he was a producer on that movie. But that year, he famously was snubbed as director. And he's never been nominated as an actor. And he's a good actor.

He's not just a good movie star. He's really good in Gone Girl. Agree. And I don't think there was any conversation about him being nominated. It felt like Hollywood was still holding something against him. I think it was just

because he won the year before. Yeah. He won for Argo and it was like you got your due. So one other person who I thought

should have been nominated that we never really talked about was Miles Teller. And he gets kind of overlooked because of J.K. Simmons and because every

sort of memorable moment from Whiplash is always not my tempo or whatever but does a I would not compare him

pound for pound to this but this is like one of those I thought when I saw it I thought it was like I wonder if this is gonna be like The Graduate where you see somebody

and you then go on to see them for the next 25 years because it just felt like such a precocious amazing you bought so much Teller stock

I still have it I'm still long on it. I still have it. I haven't sold one penny. I will not sell any. Top Gun Maverick is coming. And don't try to weaken my stock. Don't try to like publicly...

I'm shorting it. Yeah. I'm shorting Miles. After too old to die young, I shorted it. When he flies an F-16 past your house and just goes... I got a confession for you guys. I like the Fire movie. What's that one called?

I don't I can't remember it's a movie where everybody dies in the end except Miles Teller Jesus I was just gonna say it's possibly the most depressing

movie of all time yeah it's really depressing but I thought he was good in it I thought the movie was good he's also a guy who similar to Cooper in American Sniper he likes to

take on a physical endurance in his performances and with lashes totally yeah totally Chris has been like that. Yeah, totally. Chris has been like that a lot. He's a 12-hour podcaster.

So I don't, we didn't mention Cumberbatch. I'm fine with that. The one that stands out is Steve Carell, and I don't think he should have been in there. I have due respect to him.

Okay. Yeah. You agree? I didn't really have a problem. I don't think I ever had as much of a problem with Foxcatcher as you did. Same.

I liked it. I'm more offended that Redmayne won than anybody didn't get nominated for. I don't think I ever had as much of a problem with Foxcatcher as you did. Same. I liked it. I'm more offended that Redmayne won than anybody didn't get nominated for. I completely agree. It just should have been a documentary.

Let's just say Keaton. Best actress. This was one of the weakest years we've ever had. We had, what's her name, Sean Marion?

Cotillard? Yeah. Two days, one night. I can't remember what that movie was about. Felicity Jones? I'd be surprised if you saw it. It was a very small film

made by the Darden brothers. And because it was such a weak year, she got nominated even though she's been better in other movies, honestly. Felicity Jones, Theory of Everything. Rosamund Pike in Gone Girl. Reese Witherspoon, wow.

I thought Reese Witherspoon was good in that movie. And then Julianne Moore in Still Alice. Don't call me lady! She's awesome in that movie. I'm fine with this result. You were begging Still Alice. Don't call me lady! She's awesome in that movie. I'm fine with this result. You were begging Still Alice, Doc? Yeah.

I thought she was really good in that movie and really affecting. Hard no. Yeah? Hard no. This is actually, this whole category was a crime because this is Scarlett Johansson's award

and it's crazy that she didn't get for Under the Skin. Yeah. It's crazy that she didn't get out of there for this. That's not on my list here. Do you agree or do you think that's

is that a reach? No. I think that's like one of the masterpieces of the decade and a genius movie and she's really good in it and has like a hard weird part

where she's an alien who doesn't know how to talk to people. I don't know. I mean Who would you go would you go with Pike? It's my favorite performance

out of the five. The Julianne Moore thing is the It's Time Award. She has been good in 30 consecutive films. We've overlooked her too many times. She should have won for Boogie Nights. That's like an all-time performance to me. And they waited 10, 12 years later to give her the award. Like, no one's watching Still Alice.

They're not studying Still Alice in film school. I think I'm just older than you guys and that movie hit me differently. Did you like Wild? I did. Julianne Moore in that movie, that's not a movie that should have even been watchable. Still Alice? It's like, here's the

most depressing premise of all time. Enjoy the next hundred minutes. And I just thought she did some good stuff. Alright, so we're split on that one best supporting actor J.K. Simmons won for Whiplash Ethan Hawke

in Boyhood Edward Norton in Birdman he was good in Birdman Mark Ruffalo in Foxcatcher Foxcatcher with two Oscar nominations

for acting and then the funniest one Robert Duvall in The Judge that's hilarious to me talk about career achievement.

He also, he already won, so I'm not really sure what they were trying to recognize. Maybe that was just a good campaign that they ran there. I guess, but I also feel like that movie was one of those where they were like, you guys ready for the judge? And then as soon as it came out, people were like, this man shits his pants in the middle of the film.

And nobody talked about it after it was released. I feel like that was also, I can't remember when that came out, but whenever it did, it just fell off a cliff. Did this movie start Oscars so wide, or was that the next year? Or was it maybe 2016? Because you look at the actor categories,

and I think everyone's white. Yes. All 20. Well, it was a big topic of conversation because of Selma. Who should have... I forget, who was the one who should have gotten nominated from Selma? David Oyelowo played Martin Luther King. Right.

So that was the Duvall spot. Yeah, but he would have been the lead, I think. I mean, there were a lot of good performances in that movie, but, you know, Oprah's in that movie, Tessa Thompson's in that movie. It has kind of an interesting cast. But, yeah, are all of the nominees white? Yeah, all 20. Oh, wow. Yeahessa Thompson's in that movie. It has kind of an interesting cast. But yeah, are all of the nominees white? Yeah, all 20.

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's bad. And I think when they, when, and maybe you know, maybe we're so much more aware of this now. But in the moment, like Duvall and the judge and stuff like that is just so old school Oscars

of let's reward this old white guy. But the other thing too that's happening here, if you look at like The Imitation Game is one of Harvey Weinstein's last stands. Yeah. As far as like pursuing an aggressive campaign for a movie that a lot of people are like, this movie is okay.

It's not that big a deal, but he made it seem more important than it was with his machine. And so that also takes away from other people's opportunity. If Eddie Redd, if Benedict Cumberbatch is nominated and David Oyelowo was not, that's a clear connection to the Oscars.

So I think, which you're right, it did start in 2015. So that was after this Oscars heading into the... It was heading into this Oscars, I think, is when it really started. Best Supporting Actress, Patricia Arquette won for Boyhood, Laura Dern for Wild. So we were in support of J.K. Simmons for Best Supporting Actress. He's amazing., won for Boyhood, Laura Dern for Wild. So we were in support of J.K. Simmons

for Best Supporting Actor. He's amazing. He's amazing. That's the only one I feel I do think he took Ethan Hawke's Oscar. Yes. And it's not that

J.K. Simmons gave the sort of most memorable performance, but I think that this was Ethan Hawke's chance. He like spent 10 years making Boyhood with Richard Linklater.

And he's really good in it and it was bad luck. Exactly. Patricia Arquette won for Boyhood, Laura Dern in Wild, Keira Knightley in The Imitation Game and he's really good in it and it was bad luck exactly Trish Arquette won for Boyhood Laura Dern in Wild Keira Knightley in The Imitation Game

she's actually good in that Emma Stone in Birdman she's also good Meryl Streep Into the Woods as the Witch I don't even remember what that was

I'm sure there could've been a Selma spot there for Meryl Meryl they're just penciling in at that point it's very similar to Duval yeah I think it's a really good Emma Stone performance.

She was really good. She was good. I like the meltdown. You mock Twitter. That's like one of the great memes to emerge from that. That whole, remember that? Yeah. That was the movie where I think we all kind of realized

there was way more to the Emma Stone career than maybe we were expecting. We got to bring you mock Twitter back during the Democratic primaries. Good, I'll let you start on that. Okay. You got, you're right behind me. I'll follow right behind you, definitely. Good, I'll let you start on that. Okay. You're right behind me. I'll follow right behind you, definitely.

Sean, best original screenplay, Birdman 1, beat Boyhood, Foxcatcher, Grand Budapest Hotel, Nightcrawler. Are we okay with that? No. No. Who wins it?

I would have taken any of these other four nominees over the Birdman script. Boyhood, Foxcatcher, Grand Budapest Hotel, Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler is sick. Also, Gyllenhaal should have been nominated. I can't believe you. Oh, wow, Gyllenhaal. Why don't you guys like Foxcatcher? I Budapest Hotel, Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler is sick. Also, Gyllenhaal should have been nominated. I can't believe you. Oh, wow, Gyllenhaal. Why don't you guys like Foxcatcher?

I don't know. I just don't hate Foxcatcher. I thought it was weird. Why are you looking at me like I have a flower pot on my head? It's not fun. It's not a fun movie. It's not fun. I can't wait for the murder-suicide.

Fun two hours. It's very dour, but it's a fascinating true American story. Good. It should have been a six-part Netflix documentary. I think it was. I don't know why it had to be a movie. Best adapted, Imitation Game 1. It beats Sniper, Inherent Vice, Theory of Everything, Whiplash.

With Inherent Vice was... I feel like that movie's been properly rated from an Oscar standpoint. Is there momentum for it five years later as an underrated masterpiece or anything? I mean, I disagree. I think it's amazing.

But, you know, we didn't even talk about Joaquin Phoenix. Joaquin winning for Joker is also like a follow through on missing out on nominating him or awarding him for stuff like Inherent Vice. I think Inherent Vice has... The Master is... The Master too. That's a bigger omission for him. How do you feel about the goosing of the category here with Chazelle? Because it's like adapted screenplay from a short film you already made.

It's not like you adapted it from a novel or not. The rules around this stuff are so arcane and ridiculous. And I wonder if he was even able to compete in the WGAs because of this. You know, I don't... Adapted screenplay is always kind of a fraud category for that reason. Director, Inuratu won for Birdman.

I feel like this should probably have been Linklater's. Linklater Boyhood nominated. Bennett Miller for Foxcatcher, which at least won the murder-suicide movie. Wes Anderson for Grand Budapest Hotel. Should they add that? Is that a way to spruce up the Oscars? Maybe every three years. Best murder-suicide movie that day. Wes Anderson for Grand Budapest Hotel. Should they add that?

Is that a way to spruce up the Oscars? Maybe every three years. Best murder-suicide. Imitation Game was the other director. Morton Tildum, who went on to make

the absolutely abominable Passengers. Yes. Remember that? I remember people being upset that Clint didn't get it. I think he's okay.

One take Clint. I think he's... That's lunch. I think... I think... I would have thought that there would have been more love for Wes Anderson in part because... I mean, that movie didn't win anything. And this was considered like the peak of his achievements.

It was a huge hit. Yeah. And his movies were not guaranteed hits through the years. And a lot of people love him and actors love him. And he always gets nominated for screenplay. But... and a lot of people love him and actors love him and he always gets nominated for screenplay. But, and it's unusual for people to go both best picture

and best director the same now. They're often split. There was not a split this year but there have been a split, I think a split three out of the last five years. This was the other year

where there was not a split. And, I don't know, the Birdman wave just came in and took over. I don't know. I think it's fine. I think it's like an okay movie.

I understand why they wanted to reward Inuitu. It's the same thing that they were talking about with Mendes where he made the movie all look like one shot. And so it seemed like this incredible design feat. But... It had a lot of things going for it. It was about the celebration of the artistic process, the trials and tribulations of being a performer.

And a movie star. A great crowning achievement for Keaton. A bunch of up-and-coming performers. And the director. of the artistic process, the trials and tribulations of being a performer. And a movie star. A great crowning achievement for Keaton. A bunch of up-and-coming performers. And the director. Quite a good Edward Norton performance.

Definitely. I would say that. And the director. Yeah, the director. Who was Gravity before this or after this? No, that's Cuaron. He did the Revenant.

No, no, no. What's the other one he did? Oh, Revenant. That's right after this. That was a year after. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's he working on he did? Oh, Revenant. That's right after this. That was a year after. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's he working on now? Inaritu.

He appears in a lot of Rolex commercials. That's cool. I'm sure he's got a movie cooking up. I think the real problem with this year was that there was no number one starter. It's a lot of number two and number three starters and some number four starters, but there's no ace.

And the whole looking at it as a whole reflects that. So Birdman wins for best picture. It beats Sniper, Boyhood, Grand Budapest, Imitation Games, Selva, Theory of Everything, and Whiplash. I think there was a lot of hope amongst the sort of like independent-minded crowd that Boyhood was going to win here. And then there was like a Boyhood backlash that happened

where people were like, who cares if you took 10 years to do this? It's not that good. It doesn't tell Charquette's story. Right, even though she won. I have conflicted feelings about Boyhood.

What are your feelings? I thought it was incredible creative achievement. I didn't think the movie was great. But I thought the achievement itself was great. And I remember we argued about this at the time when we were doing pods and shows and stuff about it, about whether the creative achievement should outweigh the actual quality of the movie.

And some people didn't separate those two. That's actually literally my take on Birdman. I think it's like an incredible creative achievement that I just don't really care about. And I think that this is always the thing achievement that I just don't really care about. And I think that this is always the thing that we want the Oscars to thread for us is to celebrate

the obvious great leaps forward or presumed great leaps forward in movies while also celebrating the things that we're going to be talking about years to come.

The most upsetting thing was Fincher not getting anything from Gone Girl for me which we forgot to talk about in the directing thing because I just like that's was Fincher not getting anything from Gone Girl for me, which we forgot to talk about in the directing thing. That's peak Fincher.

He's the only person who could have done the best version of that movie. That movie's just got such a corrosive soul. I think it's just too... I mean, I guess Parasite proves me wrong, but it just feels like Gone Girl has such a toxic heart that it's hard for people to under... I think people misunderstood that movie. This is an underrated... You and I talked about this privately, and this is kind of a complicated thing to under, I think people misunderstood that movie. This is an underrated,

you and I talked about this privately, and this is a kind of a complicated thing to unpack, but I think that that is a subtext of the Parasite win too, is Parasite and Gone Girl tonally, and a lot of Fincher and Bong's movies have a lot in common. They're pretty cynical, they're expertly artfully crafted,

they're all like blueprint movies where everything is super designed out. They're pretty funny, but in a dark way. And the Parasite Wave, a lot of people just got really excited about a movie that is like pretty critical of likely their lifestyle in the Academy. And Bong was such a fun figure in that cast. People loved them so much over the course of three months that I think that people, I'm speculating completely, but I think some people lost sight of what the movie's about. And the difference between that and Gone Girl is

David Fincher would not be a very fun guy on the campaign trail. And Ben Affleck and Rosamund Pike and Neil Patrick Harris would not be doing photo ops and laughing about Gone Girl. It feels like it's made by some pretty hard-hearted, cynical craftspeople. So it would be hard. But that being said, I think that there's probably going to be a big Fincher thing this year where he's making this movie Mank, which is about Joseph Mankowitz or Herman Mankowitz, rather. It was written by his dad 10 years ago. Netflix is producing it.

It's a Hollywood story about, like, the making of Citizen Kane. And there's going to be a lot of, like, it's time now for Fincher. Same stuff that we're talking about with some of the actors here. But not to steal your take, but another part of that conversation that we had was what the next five years, how it's different if Fincher does get more lauded for Gone Girl. And whether he stays in features. Yeah. I think he keeps making movies. And whether he stays in features. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I think he keeps making movies, which is what I wish he did. I mean, I like those TV shows, but I'd much rather have three more movies. Well, do you know how many 2015 movies, or 2014 movies

we've done as a rewatchable? How many? Gone Girl. Just one. That's it. Is there any other one you would do? John Wick one at some point would be a fun

one. I have rewatched Whiplash. I wouldn't say that it's like I go to it a lot but I think it's one of the best movies of the decade.

I think Edge of Tomorrow would be an amazing episode. Oh yeah. That's true. Oh yeah. I think that would be really fun.

We're definitely doing that one. Yeah. Yeah. That's on the list. But yeah. I mean you wouldn't do Birdman.

Right? You wouldn't do Boyhood. It's a weird year. It felt weird at the time. There were a lot of things that didn't make sense

or that we were just like, whoa, why that? Especially like the Oscar so white thing, especially when you see it laid out in all these categories. It's like, Jesus. And then movies that we really wanted to be great that never totally got there. There were a couple like that. I think Most Violent Year was like that.

I thought Selma was good. I don't think it was great, but I thought the story was really important. But I thought the movie could have been better. But I remember Fantasy and I were like, when we first started seeing the trailers for A Most Violent Year, we were like,

they made a movie out of our brain stems. Like, this is crazy. I thought J.C. Shandor was like Coppola. You know, I was really, and I like his movies a lot, but. So you think the last performance of this five years is Scarlet? Scarlet, I think Joaquin in Inherent teller and whiplash i would and ben affleck and gong ben affleck oscar isaac

in the most violent year jessica chastain in the most violent year not being nominated is really weird actually she's amazing in that movie david o'yellow was also in a most violent year yeah there's a bunch of cool i mean and and jill and holland nightcrawler there's a lot of we could have done a good alternative pilot interstell. The Robot Pilot and Interstellar? No. Although we know who the best, who would have won Best Cammy if they made that up. And we know who wins Best Animal Performance. Who's that?

John Wick's dog. Oh, yeah. I thought you were going to say Robert Duvall's bladder. Oh, my God. I mean, this is, when people get mad at the Oscars, they're like, all right, enough with how it has to be. It's an overcorrection. It's like, well, five years ago, Robert Duvall got nominated for the judge.

This is why we're overcorrected now. We have a problem. Because that was a disaster. All right, Chris, Sean, pleasure as always. Bill, thanks, man. All right, we're bringing in Rachel in one second. First, when you need red wine at 4 p.m., sushi at 9 p.m., or breakfast burrito at 8 a.m. and ibuprofen at 10 a.m., here's an idea. Postmate it. It's your personal food delivery, grocery delivery, whatever kind of delivery service all year round. Anything you're craving, they can deliver. The largest

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Meanwhile, Saturday night is the pay-per-view event of the decade. A decade just started, but I agree with this. It is the pay-per-view event of the decade. World champion Deontay Wilder, who knocks everybody out in really violent ways, faces Tyson Fury for the heavyweight championship of the world. You might remember their first fight. It was awesome. They're fighting again. One of the most anticipated rematches. We've had probably the best heavyweight fight we've had since Tyson versus Lewis

in terms of a hype anticipation standpoint. You might remember Fury in their first battle, miraculously rising from a 12th round knockdown to finish the fight. I doubt this one's going to go 12 rounds. I don't see it. Fury's had, Fury's a great story. He's had some issues over the years.

And he really came back. He came back from a lot of stuff. And now he's going to try to come back yet again. A historic night from Las Vegas' MGM Grand Garden Arena, Saturday, 9 p.m. Eastern or 6 p.m. Pacific. Buy it now on Pay-Per-View. My recommendation would be to bet on Wilder by Knockout because that guy knocks people out.

There you go. All right, let's bring in Rachel. Rachel Nichols is here. I'm laughing. It's a Thursday. You just came right from the jump. So you have TV makeup face on, which I'm getting flashbacks to when I did the two years in Countdown. But TV makeup face, but what about the rest of me? Well, you're wearing normal clothes, but with TV makeup face on. I used to sometimes go out after countdown with TV makeup face on, and I felt like I was like a different human being. I mean, you know, I'm sure it was cute.

I'm sure all the girls were mooning over your mascara. I just look super tan. But then if somebody was looking at me, they'd be like, wait, do you have makeup on? I'm like, oh, shit, I should probably take that off. I did not grow up. I grew up liking sports, playing sports. So I was not like a makeup at the mall girl. Yeah.

And so all of this is foreign to me. And I sit down in the morning and they put it on me. And that's enough, right? Then I'm expected to take it off also? No. It's a lot, Bill. The thing for me, there's two things. One is I tried to, when they first started making me do TV, I was out on the makeup.

Okay. I was just like, it made my contacts. Right. Some of the guys were like, no, no, no powder, nothing. Were you that guy? Well, because it made, I have contacts and really sensitive eyes and it would just make me look like I was stoned. So the first couple of times.

You said that in a bad way. Yeah. Well, you know, especially in HD, people are like, hey, is that guy faded? Right. But then I remember I did, I was like, I took it off. I didn't even tell them. Like they put the makeup on. I went in the bathroom and I took it off

and I went out and I looked like a dead person. Yeah. And there's so much light and HD and there's a reason people wear makeup. Yeah. We see it with guys on the show where at the beginning, especially the former athletes will be like,

no, no, I don't want anything. I don't want anything. And then after like a month or two and their wife or someone's telling them like, you can use a little bit of it. Suddenly they're getting the full, the full nine. I remember one time it was like a replacement makeup person. Didn't go well? Basically made me orange.

You could be elected president. And I was like, do I look orange? And she's like, no, no, it looks fine. And we went out and then, and I never checked. I never checked Twitter if I do TV ever. I don't know if we could talk elected president. And I was like, do I look orange? And she's like, no, no, it looks fine. And we went out. And then, and I never checked. I never checked Twitter if I do TV ever. I don't know if we could talk about that. But then I was like, I got to look to see if anyone thinks I'm orange. So I checked my replies.

Everyone's like, hey, orange man. Hey, nice orange face. And it was just like, it was like a Jeffrey Ross roast of my orange face. And I was like, oh, so obviously I was right. I'm orange. Yes, yes. And there you go. So I took all of it off.

There you go. Do you check Twitter during the show? Not during the show that much. We have someone who checks for breaking news stuff going on. So Twitter is sort of operational in the control room because something could happen. We're on for an hour live. Yeah. Stuff happens.

Today, during our show, there's some news that broke about Kyrie Irving getting possibly getting surgery. And it's one of those things where when you do an hour of basketball a day, stuff like Kyrie Irving could get surgery is enough to make it into wanting it to be in the live show. So someone's got Twitter up during the show, but I don't check replies. Yeah. Yeah. So. But that's to, like the perfect reason to have a live show if something like that happens. It's been great. We've had random news break in our window

where you're just, you know, you're just like, oh, this happened. But that's what's nice about having people who can legit just talk about basketball. It doesn't have to be pre-planned. You're just rolling out the ball and chatting anyway. So new topic, Kyrie Irving's shoulder, go. So there you go.

I remember when we were doing the Grant Lund Basketball Hour, which we only did 10. Right. I don't know if you know, but I ended up leaving ESPN. I never heard anything about that. That's weird. It was so low profile the way you left. It was very under the radar.

Yeah, it's weird. But we had one where Rondo got traded. We were about to tape the show. Right. And we were about to tape it live. And we had every segment planned out. Of course. And then it was like Rondo got traded. And we were like, tape the show. Right. And we were about to tape it live. And we had every segment planned out. Of course. And then it was like Rondo got traded.

And we're like, cool. Right. Throw away the first segment. Yep. Let's wing the Rondo thing for 10 minutes. And if you can't do that, you don't belong on TV anyway. But I always liked when stuff like that happened. Yeah.

Our show's kind of built for that too. Right. I mean, certain shows are really slaves to the rundown. And we are not. And that's just a style thing. But we'll have stuff all the time where just because a good conversation gets going, we'll end up blowing out the rest of the block and be like, yeah, we never got to that. Hope we you've done those. I do do those. And it's like the three o'clock game, East Coast time. If it ends at 5.48, you've got to fill for 12 minutes. And half of the people are like, fuck, we got to fill. And I would be like, this is great.

This is like, now we're doing a podcast. Right, the fill is just talk about basketball. The pregame show is planned out the fill where they're like oh if this game ends early but that game's not starting yet you guys gotta go on and fill

great it's great great we're just gonna sit around and chat there would be double headers too where that would happen where it would be like

you know on Friday nights the 7.30 game and then the 10 o'clock game the 7.30 game just randomly ended 12 minutes early you'd be like

awesome that's why we're here. Yes. Although I will shout out our producers on the jump because that ethos of like, hey, if the conversation is good, just keep talking about it. Yeah.

They're all in on that. Whereas some people would be like, but we cut highlights for the second topic. Right. And I don't want to waste that work. And the fact that they're in on a good conversation is a good conversation. And our a good conversation is a good conversation. And our work is bringing everyone a good conversation. That's, I haven't always worked

with people who feel that way. And that's a cool thing about the guys that work with. I did it both ways. There were some where it's like, the producers, especially if it's a producer heavy show where they're like, we cut this package where you're going to talk about the four three-point shooters who you think have jumped up a level and they're all in motion and you're supposed to cue it up. But then the conversation and the moment's

going a different way. And you're like, yeah, screw the shooters. But they're like, no, we have it ready. Go. We're running it now. Audible. It's happening whether you like it or not. But I get it because they spent time doing it.

How much do you plan for this? For this pod? You just saw it. You saw my preparation. That's true. I walked in and Bill was like, what do you want to talk about? I feel like I hear you sometimes with Ryan being like, oh, I got to get to the next thing. I got to get to the next thing.

That one we tried. We did the first one on Sunday and we tried to structure it at least a little bit. If it's a certain guest, like Iger, which I did two weeks ago. I had a list in my head. I didn't have a list like a piece of paper, but I had in my head like start with the book, go here, go here. And then you just kind of try to remember the sequence. But if you can't and it flows a different way. You've seen Zach's list, right? So it's just funny that Zach's hosting anything because it took two years just to get him to do a podcast.

It took him another year to get him to do any TV. And now he's like a host. Yes. What are his lists? What does he do? Oh, so if you go on Zach's podcast, as you have, by the way, I'm sure you've seen this. Oh, he's called in though. I've never actually been next to him for it. So he has what would be like a legal pad and he has crazy serial killer level handwriting

and notes on it. Oh, that so doesn't surprise me. There's triangles, there's maps, there's graphs, there's charts, there's questions, there's topics. He is, he's done research into everyone's filing cabinet of what they did in third grade basketball. He, he is, and I will tease him. I'll be like, what is on the list? And then, you know, somewhere on the list, there'll be like Caesar salad. Seriously. We're like, it's either a story about Caesar salad,

or maybe he was hungry. I don't know. But then I'll, I'll just jump his list, which by the way, does not make him happy at all. No, he's, he's a very orderly human being. Yes. So, so I'm enjoying the fact that to me, Zach, even having a podcast is because of you and I'm now experiencing your podcast style being so different. This is interesting. I remember we came up with the title for the pod and it was sometimes when you title pods or anything, it's really impossible. Did they try to market research you or were you guys just sitting around? No, that was just like a couple names. I have no, I don't remember who came it up.

I should just claim that I made it up, but I have no idea who actually said it. But it was one of those things where it was like the low post with the E and we're like, done. That's it. Done. And now he has his whole welcome to and the whole thing. Yeah, but it's like sometimes it just falls into place like that. We were coming

up with names for our show. And at the beginning, there was really a strong push to have it be called NBA Today. Oh, my God. Yeah, not feeling that at all. A push from executives? I'm just going to call it an internal push to have it be called NBA Today. And I think it was just, you know, NFL Live, NBA Today, NBA Tonight. That was kind of what they had had.

So they were like, well, yeah, it's going to be called NBA Today. And for me, my idea and pitch for the show was so different from what more of that standard shows were. I didn't want it to have that kind of name. But it put all this crazy pressure on me because they were like, well, if you want something different, you got to come up with it and we have to approve it. Right. So then you're sitting there with lists and basketball words and things like the low post, but you're trying to sort of make it personal in some way or something that has something to it. Bill just got coffee brought in to him. I got a T. Oh, T. I turned 50 and I realized that I couldn't have the second coffee during the day. What happened to you? He was turning me into a serial killer. What, like what?

I don't know. I just. What was happening to you? I started to really need it the same way you need like heroin or cocaine or something where it's like I'm fading mentally if I don't get my coffee. Right. And so I didn't do it for two days. Really lasted a long time there. And then it was fine. Right. The first two days my body was like, what the hell?

Well, is this caffeinated tea? By the way, this is the largest thing of tea. It is a venti tea. Venti tea. Which I didn't even know existed It is a venti tea. Venti tea. Which I didn't even know existed. I thought they stopped it. Venti tea. You realize the latte is basically, you know, it's like a cocaine shot.

That's what I would have like a venti latte at like five o'clock. I'm having just a little, a small size, small, tall, tall latte right now. Are you looking at me askance? Do you want me to give you a little hit? No. No? You sure? No. I don't miss it. I have a giant coffee in the morning.

It's my favorite part of the day. It's all downhill. It's all downhill from there. I started having the lattes when I was doing the countdown and I was just like, I just was running out of energy. And when you're on TV, you don't have energy. What are you like an 80-year-old from New York City when I was doing the countdown?

When I was doing the countdown, whatever the show was called. But if you run out of energy on TV, it's probably the worst case scenario. They frown on that, yeah. I mean, look, there are other worst case scenarios on national live television. Looking like half dead on television. I mean, it would be much worse to look orange, so you don't want that. If I looked orange and half dead? And half dead.

Yeah, that's like the worst case scenario. The ball game is over. So I started chugging these lattes. And then we would do these segments. And I was like, what do you mean? How dare you say that about the Pistons? So is this tea caffeinated? By the way, people listening to this are like,

and that's where I turned off the podcast. Yeah, they're talking about tea and Caesar salad. It's bad. All that stuff. So how long has it jumped at now? Four years. Four years this week. I feel like.

Thank you so much for remembering our anniversary asking me to be here for it. Well, I feel like the Gremlin Basketball Hour was like the distant cousin because Wilds was involved. Oh, 100%.

The producers. Some of the, we used to have weird players that they. I don't think it's a distant cousin. I think it's a legit cousin. Yes. We would try to put people on

that weren't on normal ESPN shows and and they would always be like, what? You're going to have Steven Jackson? But now it's like, you get a lot of those. But that's actually probably one of the best assets of the jump is you get to throw people out there. Yeah, and also, so much of the other stuff I did leading up to this is what got thrown into the kitchen sink of this show, right? So I've been a reporter for so many years. And I know from being a reporter when you're telling the story of a basketball team, you can't just talk to the superstars of the team. It doesn't tell the whole story, right?

Because they have one experience, but the Steven Jacksons of the world have a completely different experience. And by the way, the guys who are the superstars don't always feel the responsibility to explain themselves fully, whereas some of the other guys have spent years and years with reps of talking and kind of having to get out there and have opinions and have cogent ideas. And it's like a basketball team. You need guys like Tracy McGrady, two-time scoring champion. You need Scottie Pippen, who's won six rings and can tell me what it's like to be in the Warriors dynasty, right?

When we're doing those final after NBA final, what is it like when you reach your X number in a row and you've played all those years in a row? Well, I got the guy sitting next to me who's done that. But on the other hand, I also have a Steven Jackson or a Matt Barnes or guys who were in a different position and still, by the way, won a ring, right? But so they have the credentials, but we're more glue guys on those teams. We're tough guys on those teams, too. You want that, too.

I do. I think the glue guys are really interesting because they look at everything differently. It's almost like how some of the most interesting podcasts I've had with actors weren't necessarily the most famous actors. Right. You know, it was like the J.K. Simmons type of guys who kind of done all kinds of different jobs and then had stardom, but also had it the other way too. You have to pay attention more, right? If you're that kind of guy, you have to pay attention more to what's going on around you because you're not just barreling in and doing it and leaving. And so those are people who have interesting, smart observations too.

And by the way, I do want also the guys who are the superstars because Tracy McGrady can tell me what it's like to go on a crazy scoring binge. You know, I don't know what that's like. Yeah. I'm very short. So how do you decide who's on the show? Well, I don't book the show day to day. We have just sort of a pool. It's almost like figuring out a cocktail party.

Yeah, it's just sort of who's available that week, who's in town, that sort of thing. And then we have kind of our pool of people, and then we go from there. I don't know. How do you decide who's on the rare? Well, yours is different, though, because you have players, but then you also have info people. Well, that was another thing. You have to figure out what's the blend of player versus info. Yeah. They hadn't really had that on any of their daily. It sort of brought the info people in differently, you know, and look, I used to work on NFL

countdown. I love the way Morton and Adam come in, right? Like they kind of come in with, Hey, I'm delivering you these juicy news bits, whatever. So there's lots of good different ways to do it. For me, again, like having been a reporter and sort of wanting this show to live in real time, I wanted not every show, we do have shows with two players, but a large part of the time

to have someone who's really plugged into the league and with like good experience, right? Someone who's been covering it for at least a decade, that kind of thing, to be able to talk about stuff in real time, who can say and add to a conversation, okay, we're doing this story because this news report came out in the Boston Globe, but also I have Jackie McMullin on set and Jackie can talk about sort of things that weren't even in the article or not in the paper or things that I might not even know because I've been watching

on TV, but she's been there. Well, she's also the best of all time. She is incredible. And that's why we love having her on. Yeah. I don't have her on my podcast enough. And I don't know why. It's my fault. I'm just bad at remembering who to have on. But every time I have her on,

I'm like, oh man. Right. Because she's the perfect blend if she has info, but she's not afraid to share stuff too. Yeah. Where some of the info people, and I include my beloved friend,

Zach, they're giving you most of what they don't, they're not, they have all this other secret stuff that people have told them in confidence that they just can't give. Yes. Jackie, you can, she can hint more at stuff. Also when you've been doing it long enough, you reach a point, I assume you're this way, Jackie's this way, where you don't kind of give a fuck about what other people think of you, what they're saying about you, right? You're just like, Jackie's this way, where you don't kind of give a fuck about what other people think of you, what they're saying about you. You're just like, yeah. I mean, if she's walking on here, she's like, I'm Jackie fucking McMullen. So great.

When do you think Zach's going to get to that point? Probably age 65. I think it's going to be a long time before Zach gets to that point. Mid 60s. Whereas you, I think, got to that point at like age 30. I got it too early. Yeah. Right?

I probably should have waited. Now I'm at the right point, but I probably should have waited a little bit. You were good. Are we going to talk about the Celtics? I can't believe we've gone this many minutes into the podcast about basketball with a basketball person. We're taping this on a Thursday. It's running probably after some of these games tonight, but I feel like the NBA has

been gone for like a month and a half. I don't like the long All-Star break. Well, it's a good sign if it's only been off a week and you're in that much withdrawal. That means that it's a good year. It was weird. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, it was just sucked. It was like Survivor. I watched Siesta Q with my daughter.

I watched Big with my son. I watched... Big the movie? Yeah. Okay. My son loves... He's almost the exact same age as Josh Baskin now in that movie. Okay. All right.

So it's like a whole different level. I like you bringing out the like old time classic. When did that movie come out? 1989. Yeah. That movie's eternal though. I agree. I just like that you're, I'm not surprised you're grounding your kid with like the classic movies,

but a lot of people don't. What's interesting is there's some 80s, 90s movies that it almost doesn't matter when they came out. Like I feel like Big 30 years from now would still be a movie that any kid would watch. Princess Brides like that

there's some. I have twin 8 year olds they love the Princess Bride. Right. And they don't like princesses or brides but it's not it's really just an action

adventure movie right? Yeah. I sidetracked you on the basketball question. That's okay. It's been gone for a while and now I'm really focused on the Celtics thing.

Plus the thing, it doesn't matter about the games tonight. I need to know from you where your head is at. My head's very confident. On the Celtics and the stretch run

and the big picture. These last 31 games or whatever it is, this is the Jason Tatum, can you actually be the best guy in a couple of playoff series? Show us during these 30 games that the potential

is there for that to happen. I mean, he's been great the last few months. Really great. It's been like, yeah, six, seven weeks where he started finishing around the rim. The defense that he's playing against certain guys like Kawhi is at a whole other level. And it's really starting to look.

There's also weird, you know, they put these weird stats out where there's like, there's only four players for the age of 22 who have 2,700 points, 800. And they come up with these weird numbers. Once you get to the third qualifier, to me, I always call those baseball stats. Right. Right. Right? On a Tuesday in July, he's the third one under the age of 21 with this many points, this many rebounds, and this many assists. And I'm like, great. I don't care.

But when they're saying like, hey, he's averaged this many points by this age or something like that, that is a stat I can wrap my head around. They had one that was, it was like 3,000 points, 1,000 rebounds, 1,000 assists before age 22. It was like Kim, LeBron. That is a worthwhile stat. And Kobe and like one other person. I was like, 1,000 rebounds, 1,000 assists before age 22. It was like Kim, LeBron. That is a worthwhile stat. And Kobe and like one other person. I was like, oh, shit. I didn't realize that.

I didn't realize we were there. Yeah. Well, part of that is always going to be a function of how much you play, right? What your opportunities are and who else is on the team with you. And then also skill when those two things combine. But I want to know. So, okay. So, let's go through these.

Who would he match up? Who would he be the best player on the court in a playoff series with? And we're not counting the teams that won't make it. If we get the two seed, he's better than anybody who's going to be in the seven seed. Yes. Unless Kyrie's playing for Brooklyn, and even then Kyrie's probably, it seems like we're starting to go toward Kyrie being up for the year. By the time people listen to this, they'll know,

but it sure sounded like we weren't going to see Kyrie that much more today. We should talk about that later. So I think he'd be better than whatever seven seed. Then the next series with Toronto, it's basically him, Kamba, Siakam, and Lowry. One of those four. Could be Toronto. Could be Philadelphia. Could be Philadelphia.

Yeah, if it's three six. Could be Miami. Like, I don't know how the first two rounds are going to fall. I just figure Indiana's going to be six. And then it'll be Toronto or Boston versus Indiana. Right. But then you get to the Milwaukee series. Yeah. Either you'd have to outplay Giannis or we'd have to have a situation kind of like what happened in 2010.

Where LeBron was the best guy in that series, but Rondo outplayed him for six games. Right. Nobody thought Rondo was better. And Paul was tremendous. Come on. That game where the two of them were in the 40s? That was 08. Yeah.

Okay. 2010 was when Rondo all of a sudden became like one of the best players in the world. Right, right, right. And then LeBron really faded the last two games. Yes, yes. And then that was the taking off the jersey in the tunnel. 08's Paul's greatest moment. That one game.

That game. Yeah. Is something that obviously clearly I'm getting senile on the whole. Oh, it's Paul's greatest moment. That one game. That game, yeah. Is something that obviously, clearly I'm getting senile on the year, but sitting at the- You're preaching in the choir. Right. Mixing up years.

But sitting courtside, I was courtside for that game and it will still go down as one of the greatest sort of just moments in basketball I have been in the building for because you had two guys at the height of their power

going at it in Boston Garden, best fans, and just, I mean, it was exceptional. I have a lot of regrets because I didn't fly back for it and it hurts. Okay. Well, I'm here to tell you, you made a mistake. I did. Yeah. There's a key moment in that game. Not only is it Pierce's best game and he really goes toe to toe and it's like, it's LeBron the year before he won his first MVP. So it's not like full-fledged LeBron yet, but it's- He was pretty good. It's 90% of where he's going to go.

They both scored in the 40s in that game. There's a jump ball and Pierce loves talking about this too. If you ever have to kill time with Pierce, just be like, hey, can we talk about that jump ball in game seven? He'd do eight minutes on it. But he just is kind of stronger and faster than LeBron. And I feel like that's one of those moments like the kid in high school who gets beaten up in the drive-in where he's like, I'm coming back next year and I'm going to be bigger than everybody. And LeBron, the next year, he's now a specimen.

He goes from that to then he goes to the Olympics with Kobe. Yep. Watches what Kobe's whole process is like day after day. And he's like, oh my God. And by the, and then he goes in that 09 season and he's just like, he's LeBron. Yep. But I think that jump ball was weirdly important. Paul sneaky strong.

Paul was, this is, it was funny. Like with the Pierce Wade stuff last year, which was a bummer. I was this is it was funny like with the Pierce Wade stuff last year which was a bummer because I was unfortunate. I thought the whole thing was unfortunate. Pierce waded into it a little bit like he you know but at the same time people were dismissing this career where he was one of the

50 best guys of all time. He won a finals and he was a really unique player. Finals MVP. Yeah and he was a strong six foot seven forward who was strong when he came in the league. He's on the ranked clutch all time rankings. I was kind of back to, he's got his number of retired in Boston Garden. Like that's the end of the conversation. And beloved.

And outplayed Kobe in 08. Right. Both him and Ray Allen did. Yes. I think he was one of those guys that was a little bit wrong error. I think T-Mac's the ultimate example of that. Oh, God. Can you imagine Tracy McGrady now?

I know. Right? I mean, I sit with him all the time looking at video and whatever. He's got to be bummed. You know what? He is so, this is, there are many things that I really like about Tracy McGrady. One of the things he's so great about is he is not a, I walked uphill both ways to school guy. And he is not a bitter

about how things did or didn't fall for him. And he could be bitter, right? I mean, goes to Orlando. Grant Hill doesn't get hurt the way he does. Yeah. His whole life is different, right? All this, oh, can't get out of the first round. Can't win playoff games.

He went for Grant Hill and that just never happened. And then he goes to Houston and Yao has those injuries and he just never has sort of that same running mate. And he that same running mate to the level. And then he gets injured and then he can't, whatever. And by the way, his injury, if it had been diagnosed and treated a little bit differently, and he's talked about, I'm not going to get the specifics of the injury exactly right, but basically if they knew now medically what they knew, you know, if they knew them what

they know now, it could have saved his knee And it would have been a completely different thing. And load management obviously would have been different. And all kinds of stuff would have been different. And he's never, and obviously the style of the game now and the rules being different, he never sits there and is bitter about it. He does give you that smile though and say, man, that'd be pretty fun. Right? I mean, can you imagine seeing him now?

I wrote a whole piece about him when I was at Grantland because it made me mad. He was kind of one of those slip through the cracks better than people realize guys. And I laid out this whole case for him. It was interesting. He tweeted out the piece. This was back when he was on Twitter. He's not anymore. Right.

And I just thought that made me think he thought finally somebody kind of noticed it. Because Darrell used to tell me all the time, he was like, TMAC is so much better than people realize. Like all the stats we have from on the court, off court, all the things he does. I covered games he played. I mean, you know, I covered him plenty. Like he was so good. And it's funny when we first started the show first of all he was the one i kept pitching to start the show with yeah and there was definitely people being like tracy mcgrady really and my pit my i've said this a million times my sort of elevator pitch for the show was hey i don't want it to feel like a powerpoint presentation like i don't want it to

sort of have a bunch of monitors and that kind of thing it shouldn't just be like sort of contained points um i wanted to feel like sitting around talking about basketball with your friends. But what if one of your friends was Tracy McGrady? Yeah, that's that was sort of the sentence. And then they're like, yeah, he's done a little countdown before. He's done a little NBA TV before. We don't know. And I was like, dude, he needs everybody needs reps.

The idea that someone's like magically good on TV the first time is insane. Um, and he didn't even need that many reps by the way. He was very, very quick to it, which you and I know is not always the case. Um, and I thought maybe people didn't quite realize the allure he had, especially for this generation of players, him and Kobe going at it for those scoring titles. I mean, you know. Well, the other players really respected and revered him, which is something, you know, I hit this point after I released my book where I wasn't really, didn't really know any players and didn't want to. I wanted to be removed.

But the most interesting thing that happened to me over the next however many years, getting to know a lot of players and being, learning stuff was how important it is when the players respect the other players yes and it like colby was really illuminating for me the way everybody i talked to talked about him being like yeah what the fuck are you talking about that guy's one of the best guys he's impossible to play and listing all the things and i think t-mac was like that and conversely it's funny. Like guys like Karl Malone, you talk to some of the older guys

and these people that statistically were awesome, but then if you talk to the people who played them, they're like, yeah, we could break that guy. Yeah. When we started with the show, I would say, oh, future Hall of Famer Tracy McGrady when I would introduce him and there was a little pushback

and I was like, you guys are missing it. And of course he was a first ballot Hall of Famer because of course he was. Well, now everybody Famer. Well, now everybody gets in. Well, not everybody gets in. Chris Bosh, very upset the other day that he didn't get in. Did you see that? Yeah, but that wasn't I think once post Kobe, I think they realized they couldn't

have like the nine guys getting in. I think it was that this year. The Kobe thing is going to overshadow everything else. Yeah, I think this year. Honestly, you know what? And, you know, you've talked about it a lot over the past few weeks. We don't have to get into yet another meditation on Kobe. Not as much as you. You were like on TV 24 hours a day. I really was for a long time. But I think even before Kobe passed that the idea of Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, and Kevin Garnett being like this trio going into the hall together, I'm not convinced anyone would have broken in with that. Any other male NBA player. It would have been weird to have Bosh with those three. Just sort of randomly.

So even before Kobe's death, I think this was probably in the idea of the committee and this is what they would do. I'm interested to see what happens though, because there are borderline guys. Chris Webber has had a bunch of times being nominated. He hasn't made it in. Ben Wallace hasn't made it in.

Chris Bosh says he's disappointed that he wasn't even a finalist this year. That did surprise me that he wasn't even a finalist. And again, I think it's just everyone was like, great, we're not going to include him. So why are we making him a finalist? The C-Web thing is awful. But when you say everybody gets in,

everyone doesn't get in. Mitch Richmond got in. That shit, to me, that was like a different, the C-Web thing, C-Web has things being held against him that, in my opinion, are fair and unfair. Well, it's Terrell Owens' conversation too, right? I think people see C-Web and they're just like, you should have been one of the 30 best guys ever and you weren't. So now you're not a Hall of Famer. It's like, well, he was first team All-NBA during this era when we had Dirk and Duncan and KG and Rasheed Wallace

and he was one of the two best forwards that year so his peak was as good as those guys and he had injuries yes and he kind of

tossed away the first seven years of his career by being a dumbass I also think people hold the Michigan stuff against him yeah but that shouldn't matter

I guess it should matter for the Hall of Fame because it's college it's the whole thing they have college whatever but yes my point is did he earn it on the court or the field in T.O.'s case? I'm glad he finally got in.

Like, did he earn it or not? See, I was more against the T.O. thing. Why? Because he was just a bad teammate. And I think that has to matter at some point. Like, he would just blow torch situations. All right. But you'd have guys like Kobe Bryant who would tell you that you need to, quote, have disruption.

You need to blowtorch situations. How good a teammate was Kobe Bryant in some years? But Kobe was one of the best eight players of all time. I agree. I'm talking about that disruption in a complimentary way. No, I get it. Right. I mean, look, again, I'm saying this only as a compliment.

Right. Kobe wouldn't pass his teammates the ball to make a point sometimes, or he wouldn't take a shot to make a point sometimes. He would blow torch all kinds of situations, and you would go back and talk to him afterward, and he would say, yeah, I'm doing it on purpose. And he thought that kind of disruption was good for a team. He always told LeBron that. LeBron did a little bit of that throughout different seasons

where he got flack for it, but definitely was sort of needling on purpose. T.O. is a different situation. All these guys are different. They're obviously different personalities. But I'm not going to say, oh, he blew up locker rooms. It didn't. Did you think that any of Terrell Owens' actions

is the reason that they did not win a Super Bowl? I thought the year after the Eagles made the Super Bowl, I thought he completely blowtorched that season. And you thought that they would have gone back if not for him. It was just, you know, I think we've seen that football especially, guys can go too far

with some of this stuff. And it's such like a camaraderie sport. You mean doing sit-ups in the driveway is not something you'd recommend? That's weird.

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I, look, I knew when I heard the news, I was like, this is, you almost couldn't wrap your head around it, but it was like, obviously this is going to be a massive deal. I didn't expect it to play out the way it played out where this is like the biggest celebrity death of our lifetime. It's interesting. I'm thinking about, you know, I was on the, as you said, I was on the air immediately right after. So you have all the stuff you say on the Sunday, on the day, kind of just kind of getting out on TV as people are tuning in throughout the day.

People hear the news sort of in waves, right? You were in a tough spot. I was actually watching some of that. Yeah. We were just thrown on the air and you like can't even wrap your head around what happened, but you have to talk about it. I thought I was pretty functional and good until as I was literally in there doing the 10, 9, 8, we're about to go to you thing.

And the guys started doing the lead in to introduce me. That's when it crossed that Gianna was with him. Right. And there was one time of the 20 times, I think I was on the air on that Sunday where they were coming out or something and the thing crossed that Gianna was with him and I'm just sitting there and they go to me.

And, you know, I've heard you talk about this. Like as a parent, I think it's two completely different levels. There's being upset that Kobe Bryant died and this person who you and I knew personally. And I've known Kobe Bryant more than half my life. Like his career just intersected with mine in a way where we were both young together and trying to make it and all the stuff. And we had all kinds of conversations about that and what that meant. Um, so there's all of that, but then there is the idea of him, you know, look, going down in however long it was, 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds with his daughter.

Knowing as a parent, you're sitting there. I just, it's hard for me to even get out the words about what that must be like for those 10, 15 seconds. And the tragedy of that. And Kobe Bryant died way too young. And considering all he had done in his years, I could have told you the next 20 years where he was going to do even more crazy, incredible stuff. The man won an Oscar two years after retiring from one of the greatest careers in sports, not just basketball, right?

So we know his next 20 years would have been full of accomplishment and interesting things. But he did live a full life in the years that he lived. When he died, you list his accomplishments, who he impacted. That would have been enough for an 80-year-old. Gianna was just getting started. And the tragedy of that, to me, is something that on live TV, I started tearing up on live television. Like, I couldn't help it. Like, it just, that is so hard. And someone brought up to me later that day,

like she could have been the greatest women's basketball player ever, which sounds like, oh yeah, you say that when someone dies. But think about it. Who knows?

She's Kobe Bryant's daughter. She has been, so first of all, we know genetically, we know, look at all the sons and grandsons of NBA players in the league or whatever

that come, Steph Curry and all, you know, having some genetics for it is obviously important. And then she had been trained, and by the way, relentlessly trained, right, by Kobe Bryant since age three at how to play basketball, footwork, everything. She was hellbent on going to UConn. So she was literally going to go to women's basketball finishing school. And then she had aspirations on the WNBA and being the kind of player we had never seen before.

And there's no reason why she couldn't have done that. Right. She literally had all the tools to do it. There's just so much that got lost there. And, of course, two other girls with her. I mean, it's just it's it's so tragic. And the tragedy of that moment on live TV was hard. The next day when we did a little bit more of, you know, you had your chance to wrap your head around it. We talked to Trace McGrady. We talked to Jerry West on our show. We kind of had people coming through who played with him. Robert Ori, Brian Shaw. One of the things that sort of when I was trying to figure out how do I start the show was the opening monologue about Kobe that I kept coming back to was he defined an entire era of a sport and he defined a place in the way that

nobody else had. So when you think about LA, who's the most famous person in LA? Well, I mean, it was, it used to be magic and I think Kobe kind of took a spot. So for 20 years, it was Kobe Bryant. It's not an actor, right? There's no specific actor. Hollywood is famous about LA, but there's no specific actor that you're like, he's LA. And actors are always pretending to be someone else anyway. So he really, from when they made the finals after the Gasol trade, it wasn't close to happening until that second wave of his career happened when, uh, from 08 to, and then when it did to the Achilles season, because that was when he really started to figure out, okay, I gotta, I gotta do some things better. If I'm, if my legacy

is going to be a certain way, I've got to open up more and I've got to talk to more media people and all that stuff. But, but you can't tell the story of Los Angeles. You can't. Without Kobe Bryant. But I mean, they almost, you can't tell the story of the NBA without Kobe Bryant. You can't tell the story of this part of American life without Kobe Bryant. And that is why I think it's the celebrity death that has sort of shook people as globally and as much as it has, is that there's so many different fabrics that he is a key thread in, and you've ripped that thread out. And it's also just a long period of time. Yeah.

Because you think, like, I moved to L.A. in November of 2002. So. Because you think like I moved to LA in November 2002. So he's still playing with Shaq and they're the three-time champs. And he had already been LA to a lot of people then. It's not like you moved here at the beginning of him being LA. He was already LA to a lot of people. And then I was trying to get Clipper tickets in 04. And that was when they thought they were getting them. And they made a couple of trades to open up the cap space.

And then he was like, I'm staying with the Lakers. Thanks anyway. But that whole whole stretch then that other stretch and then somewhere between 08 and 13 it's i never thought anyone would pass magic and even like when i did tv with magic that year and he was like we would talk about it because magic you know he still feels like of course he would always be like, Kareem's the greatest Laker of all time. But then he was like, but Kobe's probably the greatest Laker of all time now. You know, he's been on the team the longest and did all this stuff. All right, so there's two sides to that conversation, right? Like who's the greatest player to put on a Lakers jersey?

That's Kareem. Kareem. Yeah. LeBron wants to be in that conversation, that kind of thing. The greatest player, not while he played, so the second category is who's the greatest Laker, right? So who's the greatest player to ever put on a Laker jersey even for five minutes?

Well, it has to be, no, there's three conversations then. Okay. The greatest player to be wearing a Laker jersey when he was actually at a great point in his life. So you're breaking down category one. LeBron, LeBron's probably, he's the second best player ever. So he's the greatest guy who's ever put on a Laker jersey. And then he had the best Laker career. Right. Kobe just, it was, you know, the amount of time is just more than what Magic did. Magic was 12 years. What's interesting is I had that conversation on one of our shows six months

ago. And the overwhelming consensus of the guys on set was the greatest Laker was still magic Johnson. That's how I feel. You had the conversation after Kobe's death, magic Johnson came out and said, Kobe was the greatest Laker. And then a lot of people like,

well, no, no, no, Kobe's the greatest Laker. And I can't tell if it's the haze of the tragedy. It's the career. Magic's just peak was just,

he was just better. I mean, he's still one of the top five guys ever and he won multiple MVPs. I mean, it's a good point. If you're a Laker fan, it's a good problem to have, right? Gee, Kobe or Magic, which was the better Laker,

I mean, it's two of the best careers in the history of basketball. But the difference is basketball is just way bigger during Kobe's career than it was during Magic's career. I talked about this. And Magic's career got cut short. Let's not forget that either. His career got cut short, but also they weren't on that much.

They were here in L.A., and you could see them, but in Boston, and I saw them on CBS on Sundays every once in a while and then in the playoffs sometimes. And basketball became this 24-7 sport at some point over the last 12 years. You're telling me. I mean, now it's like literally 24-7. When we started the jump, it was a half hour show. And it was only four years ago.

It was a half hour show just during the season. And in just four years, we are an hour show. We go year round. And I would say some of our peak best ratings are in July. And well, you left out the part that they wouldn't even have an NBA show from the last four years I was there. We used to talk, I used to talk about it with Adam Silver.

I was like, how do we get them to have a daily NBA show? They have a daily NFL show. I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know why they won't do that. He would get mad about it with Adam Silver. I was like, how do we get them to have a daily NBA show? They have a daily NFL show. I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know why they won't do that. He would get mad about it. But the ESPN people would tell you like, no, there's no way to sustain a rating. It's not going to happen.

It was a back and forth. I wouldn't have left Turner if they hadn't committed to do it. And I didn't think I was leaving Turner. In the stretch, whatever, you know, I had been at Turner at TNT and had my own show on CNN. It was a great combination. I could do kind of two different things. I love being part of TNT basketball. They let me do TBS playoffs for baseball.

That was really fun. It was a great time. I love those guys. Nothing like those dugout interviews. Don't mock. Those managers. Don't mock. You're interviewing a grown adult who's wearing a baseball uniform.

In pajamas. Nothing. That's a career holiday. Don't mock me. Don't mock me. A seven-year adult who's wearing a baseball uniform. In pajamas. Nothing. That's a career holiday. Don't mock me. Don't mock me. A seven-year-old guy wearing a baseball uniform. Bill Simmons, I was on the field when the Red Sox won the World Series. Oh, that's wonderful.

So there you go. In St. Louis. What do you do with those dugout interviews? Because those managers are like, it's not like basketball where you go like, what's going on out there? And it's like, oh, we got to stop them for shooting the threes. Baseball, it's like, I really, really hope we hit the ball better. Talk about pitching. I mean, people do baseball broadcasts.

It's not like there's not an analysis to be had. I'm good with no manager in-game interviews ever. I mean, the coach interviews. It was fun for me, Bell. It was fun for me. No, I'm sure it was fun for you. What do you think about the coach, the coach interviews. It was fun for me, Belle. It was fun for me. No, I'm sure it was fun for you. What do you think about the coach, NBA coach interviews? You know what?

I think that making the sport more accessible to more people is a good thing. The XFL was not something I was like by nature super interested in, but I like the way it's being presented. I like the access you get. I just think that people say, oh, the media. It's not the media. The media is a conduit to the fan. The media is just sort of the vehicle, right, for fans to get access to the game. And I think any time fans can get a little bit more access to the game.

And yeah, most of them are nothing and inconsequential. But you do get a couple great Popovich, Rick Carlisle. I mean, Brad Stevens gives you a moment every once in a while. You get moments from these guys every once in a while. I'm out. That are good. I'm out. You're out.

You know what I love, though? The post-game interview. Post-game interview. I like grabbing the person right after the game. Because they'll actually say something. They will. You were really good at pulling. Thank you.

The first question's crucial. Yep. And then they let down their defense a little. And then the third question, you can really get something. And also that there's a good, there's a night, having done the work ahead of time gets rewarded in those moments.

And I like that, right? So I've covered the NBA for two decades now. So every single guy playing now, I was there when they came in. I have done the work of talking to them year after year after year. I've checked in with them. I still go to a ton of games.

That's just because I have a studio job. I go to games. One of my big things with the jump was that the jump would go to games, that the show would be on the road.

That was definitely not the norm for a studio show at ESPN during the season just to regularly sort of jump and go to games. It's not hard to put some chairs and two cameras on the court.

They would always act like they were building a plane. It's like, just throw some chairs on the court and let's go. I just think it wasn't the way people it wasn't the way people thought of it. But for me.

I like it. You're right there. Yeah. It's exciting. You can't legit talk about all these guys and say with authority that you know what you're talking about if you haven't talked to them. Right. Right.

So to me, even at the end of games, getting to talk to them, you know, it was a way to show the work of being like, hey, this guy and I have had conversations now for 10 years going, here's another one. And you almost look at that like another continuing in the conversation. And again, that is something that gives fans more of a way in and influence the jump when we started it. Because again, to me, it was, it should just feel like a conversation. It should feel like sitting around talking about basketball because those are the best interviews I do. A lot of the good interviews I do, I'm not even asking questions at the end of every question. I'll sort of bring something up the same way you're doing in this podcast, right?

Yeah. And then they jump in and then you jump in. And that to me is just as good an interview as a, you know, who, what, why, or where question. What did you, what solution did you have to the height discrepancy as you're interviewing these guys after games? I had a very established technique. All right. So this is seriously, this is something I put a lot of thought into. I'm sure you solved this. You bring this up mockingly?

I wasn't mocking you. First of all. This is a genuine question. People were probably like, well, wait, how short is she? Right? I want to bring up the fact that at ESPN, and you know this, you've worked for ESPN for a long time. I'm not saying you're like Vernon Troyer, but you're... Well, I will say this. When the standard boilerplate ESPN language of your contract is,

I don't know if you ever noticed, there's a paragraph in there that says this is the job that they're hiring you for, but they do have the right to reassign you to any part of Disney. Did you know that that was in your 16 years of ESPN contracts you never paid attention to? So I live in fear they're going to cancel the jump and reassign me into the Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs ride because it's close. It's really close. So I'm like 5'4 on a good day, right? And my rule was if the player was within a foot of my height, that was okay, right? Because I would wear heels. The player would be within inches. So you're talking basically... So 6'4 and under. So even Kobe is too high for that.

No, no, no. Any small forward or tall shooting guard is out. Right, you know, whatever. But yeah, so like the Steph Currys or whatever. There are players, you don't have to be a shrimp, but like, you know, 6'4 or under, that's fine. And I would wear heels and so it'd be like, you know, 10 inch discrepancy max, 9 inches, whatever.

Anyone over 6, four. And I would check, I would check just to make sure that I wasn't like thinking of the person wrong or whatever. I would bring them over to the scorer's table, ask them to sit. You know how you like sit half lean on the scorer's table? I would stand and they would sit on the scorer's table. And that's how we did the interview. And it got to the point where I did this enough and for long enough that they would be

the PR person is the one who brings the guy over and it'd be, oh, it's Rachel. And I had players who would take the PR person by the arm and say, no, no, we got to go over to the scorer's table. Rachel does it over there. They didn't know that I did it over there with them, but with shorter guys, I didn't necessarily do that. But I had to have a whole thing.

That's really smart though. I mean, you know, some of us. Because LeBron's like 6'8 and a half. Yeah, it's not pretty in me next to those guys. And then you're interviewing someone's belly button. It was really when I started doing Shaq. Where you have like you're reaching up like you're grabbing for an apple or something. I think it was when I first started having to do it with Shaq, no joke, where I was just like, this is

obscene looking. Like, it's just not right. It is. I'm sorry. So I was like, you sit down. I was like, you sit and I will stand and we will do this. And then, you know, there you go. Those guys are the best guys though, because for whatever reason, the NBA has the most fun people to talk. Yes.

Out of all the sports. Yes. And I don't know how that happened because it certainly wasn't the case when I was growing up. I think that this era. We had magic and magic was like, man, fucking magic's the best, man. What a great interview. Now there's like 20 magics.

I think it's a whole bunch of things, right? I think that guys are much more sort of camera ready by the time they get to the league because they've grown up seeing video in their life more and being around video. And how many pictures of your kids in video are in your phone? Oh my God.

Thousands, right? Yeah. How many videos of your kids in video are in your phone? Thousands? Yeah. Right? Yeah. How many videos have your kids been in? Tens of thousands of videos over their life. How many videos do you think that Larry Bird had been in before he got to the league? Right? I mean, he was a legendary, terrible interview. Right. But he had been on the local news maybe 12 times, maybe 20 times. Your children have been in tens of thousands of videos. So by the time these kids get to the league, first of all, they're much more used to what it does and what it means to sit in front of a camera and talk. They're much more comfortable. They're much more themselves because they're not like, oh my God, the camera's on. And I think that the NBA

in this era of the NBA, and I give David credit for the end of his time and certainly Adam credit for what he's done, encourages all this stuff. David wanted stars, right? From Magic and Larry on, it was stars, stars, stars. So he would encourage guys to be stars, do it, show your personality, wear what you want to wear, mouth off, do that kind of thing. Now, by the way, wear what you want to wear took a hit at one point during the 90s. But I'm just saying that the idea that these guys' personalities were encouraged and not discouraged is something that I think has then spawned what we have today. And it trickles down. I was watching high school semifinals on Channel 56 here in LA.

You need a life, Bill Simmons. No, we knew one of the kids. It was Winward against somebody. And this 10th grader on Winward, his name's Kajani or something, but he went to my daughter's school

when he was a couple years older. He's a sophomore and he's like the, I don't know, seventh highest ranked sophomore in the country. Yes. So they win this game

and they interview him after and it was like, it was like watching Will Smith promote Bad Boys 2. I was like, how the fuck is this guy this good?

He's 16. Because his mom, just like you, has 10,000 videos on her phone of him from age two on. He's laying it down. I was like, throw this guy inside the NBA. Right. There you go. He's a high school sophomore. I wouldn't have been able to have a conversation with anybody.

So these bigger interviews you do. Yeah. One thing that I feel like has shifted with the NBA at least a little bit is all these guys have their teams, right? They're basically like, there's no difference between Leo DiCaprio, Brad Pitt. Wait, all these guys have

their teams? What do you mean? Guys have always had teams in the NBA, Bill. I mean their teams of people. Oh, like their... Their group that watch out for them. Don't become Phil Jackson here. Careful with your words. No, I'm talking about like they have like a media strategist. They have their agents.

Some guys do. They have a manager. Not every guy does. Some guys do. They all have their little group, though, that they trust who looks out for stuff. If you think that Joel Embiid and Jimmy Butler have media strategists, you haven't spent that much time with them. Jimmy Butler definitely does not have a media strategist. Embiid, I don't know, though. Embiid has Jimmy Butler have media strategists. You haven't spent that much time with them. Jimmy Butler definitely does not have a media strategist. Embiid, I don't know, though.

Embiid has his agents, I think he does. But I think these guys are very careful about what they do. And it's like, oh, GQ wants to do a cover story about me. Absolutely. Yeah, I'll do the cover on that. Great. You have to do an interview with them. Don't say anything too crazy.

Sure. You get an hour with James Harden. Yep. Ask him this, and we'll have somebody sit in there. It reminds me of what, almost like what's going on, what's happened with Hollywood over the last 40 years. Where you have, when people

do these interviews now, there's some sort of reason they're doing it. They're not just like, you couldn't go, hey LeBron, come on the jump on Tuesday at 3. He's not doing that. But if he had some documentary he was promoting, mayberon, come on the jump on Tuesday at 3. He's not doing that. But if he had some documentary he was promoting, maybe he'd come on for a segment or something. Is it harder to do journalism when there's all these kind of asterisks now?

It depends on the guy. We are fortunate enough that I'm able to get interviews without someone promoting something per se, normally. I like to talk to players when they're going through some kind of change. I think that that's the most interesting, right? Like Paul George coming to the Clippers. Paul George coming to the Clippers. I sat down with Paul and Kawhi, their first, like when they first got to the Clippers together

because that was a huge change, obviously, for both of them. How did this happen? What does it feel like? All of that kind of stuff. How did we get here? Where are we going feel like? All of that kind of stuff. How did we get here? Where are we going from here? All of that is a great moment. I sat down with Zion Williamson this week

and he is going through a huge change, right? And to me, even, I mean, I talked to him when he was drafted and that was a huge change. We did an interview then. I was pretty excited to talk to him this week and I was kind of glad that he had the 10 games under his belt.

I was excited to do it now as opposed to, you know, some talk of doing him before he started playing. And when he was still injured and we were just like, you know what? Like both sides were kind of like, let's wait, let's wait. Because this change of what it has been like since he started playing has been crazy, right? His first 10 games have been insane. Well, he's beloved. He is. He's my favorite player.

I was going to say, with good reason. I hope you weren't. I love Zion. I hope you were not going to get into why are people liking Zion so much because we would have to have words. I like him because he's amazing to watch. And anytime he's on television,

it's the game I want to watch because he's playing in it. It's amazing. He jumps off the screen. But what was interesting to me and what we talked about, the biggest chunk of subject we talked about in this interview was, dude, he was in high school two years ago. Right.

He was a high school senior going to English class with his teacher asking him to write poetry lines. In like South Carolina, right? In South Carolina. Like, come on. But he was a House of Highlights star at that point. Yeah, but that's still, I mean, you know that and I know that. I knew him as a junior because he was just this dude on Instagram that was dunking on everybody.

But you were watching Channel 56, 10th graders, whatever. That is not the norm. Right. He was able to go through his daily life as a high school senior without this. And in the last two years, people, he told me in this interview, people are following him to restaurants. Like he's going to dinner and someone's following him.

It's going to get way worse than that. I know, but if you're 19, he's the fourth youngest player in the NBA. He's still young. How old's your oldest? Jason Tatum is still

the youngest player in the NBA. Is he really? No. I was like, wait a minute. No, he's not. That was a big thing with Jason Tatum.

It was for a while. I was like, wait a minute. I was like, that's not possible he's only 19 but when you say something with certainty

about the Celtics it makes me think it makes me think maybe is Bill right is Bill right is that true Tatum and Brown combined

are still like six years younger than I am no I mean they're still kids you're old now I don't give a fuck stage you're old you're at the

I don't give a fuck stage I'm not at the Kornheiser stage yet that's the stage I want to get to we all want to get there I give a fuck stage. I'm the old guy. You're at the I don't give a fuck stage. No, I'm not at the Kornheiser stage yet. That's the stage I want to get to. That's where we all want to get there. I give zero fucks. Yeah. I'm happy to give my opinion at all times on anything.

Yep. All right. So you do Zion. Right. So that did not require a bunch of handlers. What's your goal with that interview? Because you know you're not getting that much, but you also want to get like, what's the number one thing you want?

That topic was the number one thing I wanted to kind of talk to him about. Your life is so different now. What's it like? Just what is it like to be going through this, right? Because we are seeing what you and I think could be the beginning of another LeBron, right? The beginning of another like iconic Magic Johnson, another iconic player. I'm just in fear all the time he's going to get hurt. Well, sure.

I hate the way he walks. I'm sure he doesn't like how you walk either, Bill. Well, sure. I hate the way he walks. I'm sure he doesn't like how you walk either, Bill. No, his gait just makes me nervous. He's got, you know, he's kind of his knees are out, but his legs are going in. I wish people could see what you're doing right now with your body. Bill is standing

here. He's sitting, by the way, imitating walking while you're still sitting. It was a bad imitation. You have both elbows up in like an L shape. His body's going a lot of directions. It makes me nervous. And then he's just jumping over guys. Yes. The guys are going up for a rebound, and Zion's coming in sideways and just taking it from them.

He did a block the other day where his head was above the rim. Yeah, John Morant makes me really nervous because he doesn't give a shit. That's how I know you're a parent. When you were younger, you were like, man, look at these fucking cool things people were doing. And now you're like, oy, that makes me nervous. Well, John Morant's trying to dunk dunk over seven footers from 15 feet away. And it's working. Yeah, I know.

It's just, I do get nervous. We want to see it. So that is true. When I had kids, you start getting more nervous. Because I remember Derrick Rose used to make me super nervous when I watched him early in his career. Because I was like, man, settle down. It's okay.

So yes, that was the biggest thing I wanted to find out because that's this moment of his life, right? So I hope that he has a long career. I will interview him a bunch. We will check in with him at different stages. This moment is about what is it like to become crazy famous and just to just sort of start to understand what you can do on a basketball court because that's what this moment is about. Yeah.

And then in two years or a year, it'll be a different moment. I always say that doing interviews has been one of my favorite things and parts of this job. And it's something that I will want to always do. And it appeals to me so much because you get this crazy sort of window into someone's life in that moment, right? And then if you can do it long enough, you can check in with them over and over again. And to have a front row seat to anyone's life over, you know, I look at LeBron. I met LeBron when he was a senior in high school. Yeah.

That's the first time I interviewed him. And I've interviewed him as recently as this year, year 17 of his career. And to have a front row seat to anyone's life for two decades, that's pretty cool. I mean, it could be a school teacher in Milwaukee. Like, that would be a pretty cool thing to be able to check in with someone year after year after year. What's changed? What's going on with you?

You know, how are these things happening? What are you experiencing? When the thing isn't teaching school in Milwaukee, but it's operating on this incredible international stage with some of the craziest athletic feats in the world with any of these guys, it becomes such a cool thing to be able to keep doing.

So I'm excited to sort of see Zion at the beginning of these first chapters and then continuing to tell that story throughout what I hope is and think is going to be a really crazy good long career. One more break to talk about Square. They make that little white reader that lets anyone take credit cards,

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business you're at. See all the ways Square can take your business from square one to whatever's next at square.com slash go slash BS. Loans subject to credit approval issued by Celtic Bank member FDIC. So the worst interviews are Harden and Westbrook. They're just not giving anything. I'm going to tell you something. James Harden. I have an interview with James Harden that's coming out next week. Yeah.

We did it a couple days ago. Did he say anything? He said a lot. Get out of here. I don't believe it. No way. I'm going to check in with you after it runs. I don't want to give too much away.

Stop it. Look, was it the most sort of, you know, did he spill the beans the most of all time? Of course not. But he said some stuff that will make some headlines. Really? Yes. I'm just going to leave it at that. And then Westbrook just has complete disdain for all this stuff unless you're talking about Tom Ford. I can't think of the last, I can't, I'm sure someone can come up

with it. We'll be listening to this and we'll send me a tweet or something, but I can't remember the last sit down television interview Russell Westbrook did. He doesn't care. That was just sort of an interview that wasn't promoting something that wasn't about something, you know, like as you said, fashion and, and is usually associated with like a magazine or something like that. What's the Giannis upside for an interview these days? For, for me or for him? No, just in general.

He's pretty good now. He's great. I think he's, I love talking to him. I saw him a bunch at All Star. He's thoughtful. Yeah. He's, he's so smart. I haven't never had him on a pod or anything.

He's so smart. And he also has experience. I mean, think about the change he's gone through, right? Think about his life and just sort of, again, like you could tell that story without even the basketball in it. And it would be super interesting. And now also he's the great, he's, you know, he's the MVP of the NBA, which is insane. I was with him this weekend at an event where he was talking a little bit more candidly. It was a small thing. So he was a little more candid and open about being an illegal immigrant in Greece with his parents and how they were not in the country legally. And that they really had to like,

that his parents were like, don't talk to too many people. We can only trust so many people to turn us in or not turn us in like that kind of stuff. I'm talking about, and he's told the story before about how there was a local sort of coffee breakfast diner shop where he tried to get a job when he was a teenager because his family needed money and they didn't have enough food. And he was like, I need a job. And the guy looked at him and he knew the family from kind of around the neighborhood and he was like, you need to go to school is what you need. And you need to focus.

You play basketball, you need to go to school and whatever. And it wasn't even really basketball. It was the school that the guy said. He's like, you need to go to school. He's like, just come in in the mornings and I will give you breakfast. And he gave him and his brothers breakfast. And like, not for any reason, not because he thought he was going to become Yanis Antetokounmpo MVP in the mornings and I will give you breakfast. And he gave him and his brothers breakfast. And like, not for any reason, not because he thought he was going to become

Giannis Antetokounmpo MVP in the NBA, but because those kindnesses from strangers is literally how he survived being a teenager. And then goes on to have this crazy career and adaptation and his work ethic is off the charts. I mean, obviously his physical gifts are crazy, but we all saw him when he was drafted, right? That kid wasn't destined to be an MVP,

but he worked himself into it. He did, but he grew, he put on a ton of muscle and just did a ton of work on his body, and he has been in the gym religiously and still is to this day. That's why they drafted. I did that draft, and we had, he got picked like 13th, and we were kind of like, okay. Like, nobody

thought like, oh. No, he was a name on the list. He was a name on the list. You didn't know much about him going in. You didn't know much about it going out. I praised it. It's on my tombstone. I praised it. I was like, good pick.

I like the value there. I had no idea. You know what mine is? What? I said everyone should have taken Luca first. I feel like good. Oh, that's a good one. It's on TV.

There's a few of us. I said it. We'll invite you to the meetings. Me and KOC were on there. I was like, ha. It's good one. It's on TV. There's a few of us. I said it. We'll invite you to the meetings. Me and KOC were on there. I was like, ha! It's on record. It's on video. I was, my big thing about that was, it's really, it was really, that draft was so

interesting to me because it told the story of front office people being more scared to make a mistake than they were more interested in being right. Well, and also people just devaluing the EuroLeague. I mean. And it's like, it was almost like what he was doing didn't matter. I know, and they didn't care.

He was the MVP at 18 of the second best basketball league in the world. And he played like 90 games. But I think. It was the dumbest. Yes. It was stupid. Yes. I see the Phoenix side. What are your other, I'm on record, and it turned out.

I've had some good ones. All right, tell me, tell me. What are your best? The Minnesota passing Curry twice. I had some good ones. All right, tell me. Tell me. What are your best? The Minnesota passing Curry twice. I had a heart attack. I was doing draft diaries, so I've had some good ones. That one, Chris Paul dropping to fourth. I went nuts on that.

I've missed, too. I've had some misses, but Darko going second, I went crazy for that. We were just having the Darko conversation today. Like, I don't, obviously, they should have picked Melo, they should have picked Melo, they should have picked Melo, and when someone's a talent, and Melo was such a high school star, too. It's not like he came out of nowhere. But, they had Rip Hamilton.

So, at least, like, I understand what Joe Dumars was thinking. It still wasn't the right decision in retrospect. And Joe Dumars wouldn't make that same decision again. Well, and there was also, like, the draft workouts and stuff. This was before people realized. There was also the draft workouts and stuff. This was before people realized not to overvalue the draft workouts and really start trying to find out more about the person. I just feel like work ethic, like switching sports to football,

it makes me so mad the Patriots didn't take Deebo Samuel because it's like everything you read about that dude, he's like first one there, last one to leave. And that's like the perfect Belichick guy. He's like, we succeed with these guys all the time. And the basketball is the same thing. I don't think you would have any idea about Giannis. No.

But somebody like Tatum, if you did the research, which I think the Celtics did. Guess who did? Guess who did the research? Danny Ainge. Guess who didn't? Right. They knew from St. Louis.

That, by the way, is going to go down as one of the great heists of all time. Danny gets upset with me because actually I did sit down with Danny earlier this year and I said to him, I said, you know that I say on TV all the time that people should hang up the phone when you call. He's like, Rachel, don't say that. Don't say that. That's not true. We do fair trades. We do fair trades. I was like,

it's just not true, Danny. You've taken the lunch money of the last six people that you've made a deal with. He got criticized when he made the trade. So anybody who goes back now and says, like, he took a lot of shit for not taking folks. That was highway robbery. He got Jason Tatum and a first round, no, a first round. He got the Kings pick. And the Kings pick.

Well, the bummer was the karma from that trade. We got screwed with the Kings pick last year. They just randomly won 40 games. And then this year we had the Memphis pick. They're just randomly going to make the playoffs. And it's like, these were these two, you know. Right. It's a bummer.

But the Tatum thing worked out at least. Also, and I know Kyrie did, the story of Kyrie did not end the way Boston fans would have wanted it to and the idea that he would become this franchise player. We don't discuss him on this podcast. I understand. That trade was still,

even with the way things worked out, that trade was still in Boston's favor. The sneaky thing that happened with the Celts was Horford leaving. That's also in Boston's favor, don't you think? Oh, yeah. Okay. I thought you were going to say that that was a hit.

No, the fact that they're ready to give him like three years, 90 million, and I still think he's a valuable rotation guy, but he's not Al Horford. He's not in his prime anymore. And those are the kind of contracts that you can't come back from. Well, we'll see.

Philadelphia's got a couple of those. Although everything's so, so the contracts are shorter, like in the early 2000s. When did you start doing the NBA for Turner? Well, no, I started doing the NBA for the Washington Post. I had an hour career. When were you on TV though? I did the MBA for ESPN first. I was at ESPN

for almost a decade and then was at Turner for three years and then came back to ESPN. But yes, I was doing the MBA and I was in DC for the Washington Post when Chris Webber had his seven-year contract. So all of those guys, that's what you're talking about, right? The Jawan Howard, Chris Webber. Probably like the 2007

range, where if you gave somebody a seven-year, $106 million deal and two years in, it's a catastrophe. Yes. And by the way, they didn't want to be there anymore, but they didn't really have any leverage because they still had five years left on their deal. I'm just suppositioning Carl Anthony Towns is in right now. And then, you know, the...

Sorry, I'm going to time out. I'm not saying or reporting that Carl Anthony Towns doesn't want to be in Minnesota. Someone's going to take that out of context. I just meant that these guys are- Are you worried about the aggregators? Yeah. I'm going to say it then, and I don't care if I'm taking it out of context. He signed that deal.

He grabbed the money. And he was like, if it doesn't work out, I'll just try to push for a trade next season. You can't push for a trade if you've got that many years left, though. That's my point. I'll believe anything at this point. Look what Jimmy Butler had to do to get out of there. But he got out. All these guys get out. Or they get bought out.

Took a lot. Demare Carroll's like, I'm not happy with the Spurs anymore. I'd rather go to another team. They're like, cool. We'll buy you out and next year your salary will count against our cap. It's like, how about just saying, hey, Demare, show up to work. We might need you. We're paying you anyway.

That's what Greg Popovich did with LaMarcus Aldridge, though, is that LaMarcus still had time left on his deal. He was not happy with the way he was being used. He didn't think that he was sort of playing the style he should be playing. He talked about wanting out, and he and Pop sat down and had dinner. And Pop, I asked Pop, I said, what did you say to him? And Pop was great, because Pop is great

when you get him in the right mood. And he said, well, I told him if he can work himself out a trade for, you know, I think he said, you know, LeBron James or Kevin, no, Kevin Durant. He goes, if he can work himself out a trade for Kevin Durant,

I will drive him to the airport. I said, I'll drive you there myself. Unless you can work that out, you're staying here. So we better work this out. And then they had a productive conversation about, and Pop again, to his credit said, I'll drive you there myself. Unless you can work that out, you're staying here. So we better work this out. And then they had a productive conversation about, and Pop, again, to his credit, said, I learned from that dinner that I could put,

I was trying to force my style of play on him and I could do a better job letting his style of play dictate. And he had a much better season the next season. So guys are not, you know, I think there was a narrative for a while that like, oh, they're all forcing their way out right and left. And obviously Jimmy Butler, you know, that whole situation and some of the other situations, you know, Anthony Davis fed that narrative.

But they're all a little bit different. That's just the way the NBA is going to be now. I think it just depends on what year of the contract the guy's in. If these guys did this with relationships, nobody would ever get married. Or if they got married, there would be a lot of annulled marriages. It's just like, what's good lately? Okay, I like that.

I like that. Well, guys are signing, to your point, guys are signing shorter deals now. So look at the Clippers, right? Shorter deals are the ton of leverage. Right. Kawhi and Paul are actually only there for two seasons. The contracts are longer, but they're player options.

The Clippers didn't know that, though. What do you mean they didn't know it? They signed the contract. They didn't know the two-year out thing when they traded all those picks. I'm positive they wouldn't have done that. I disagree. They did not know the two-year thing.

I think that was one of those things like, oh, and by the way, after they had already gone down the road with this stuff. I don't think they knew that. I really don't. I don't think that one came up. That's a lot to give up for two years. Yeah, but you're giving it up

for the possibility of them. The Clippers needed Kawhi to come then. If they hadn't, if Kawhi had not picked them and picked the Lakers, which was really the other option he was considering, and Masai Ujiri will tell you

he thinks that too. What would that have meant for the Clippers franchise? After all they did right. You had Clippers season tickets. I don't think you still do, right? Oh, I sure do. Oh, you do? Okay.

So you, Mr. Clippers. They finally paid off. You, Mr. Clipper, tell me. I'm still way in the hole. After all the Clippers did, getting the organization right, getting the right owner, getting the right front office, all the smart, shrewd moves they made, all the way they rehabilitated

the reputation of the franchise. If this summer, Kawhi Leonard had looked at them and everything they did right and the Lakers, and think about what kind of mess the Lakers were in at that point with Magic Johnson walking away

and everything else. Yeah. And he had picked the Lakers instead. That would have been a just death blow for the Clippers organization. They had to get him to sign. They had to make the trade for Paul George. The more I think about it, I think they should have played chicken with him.

I think you want to come to the Clippers. I don't think he wanted to play with LeBron. I don't think it was. I mean, look, and now I'm not speaking. I really think he did not want to play with LeBron. This is all speculation because Kawhi has not shared his deepest,

darkest, innermost thoughts with anyone. And never will. But I think that the Clippers were his first choice. The idea of starting his own thing or having his own thing or being the guy was his first choice. But I don't think he was interested, and this is just my opinion, in going to a subpar team where it would be him playing in the same building as LeBron and Anthony Davis, but not having someone next to him that he considered of that top 10 player level and having to go into the same building down that same hallway, night in and night out, and be the other guy on the other team that wasn't going to make

the playoffs as far or anything like that. Maybe you should have gone back to Toronto. I mean, people in Toronto. That team would be the best team in the league. Kawhi and Dine. They tried. That would have been unbelievable. They tried.

How's it going with Goodell? I see him every once in a while and stuff. Do you really? I do. Not that often because I'm not that much football stuff anymore. But we have a lovely chatting in a hallway in front of other people, smiling relationship. You know those kinds of relationships. I really felt like I needed other soldiers on the frontier and you really delivered it

at that press conference. I'm glad I could be there for you. I loved you for life after that. I'm glad I could be there for you. There weren't a lot of us. Look, no. But look, there's so many times where you kind of just ask the question because it's sitting there right in front of everyone's face. That's true in some of these interviews too. And guys know that when they sit down with me. I don't do ambush shit. That's not my thing. If I'm going to ask a guy's tough stuff in an interview, I will tell them on the way. And I'm like, Hey, I'm not shying away from this. Mark Cuban, after that sexual harassment report came

out, um, came on the show that day. And I was very open with him. I said, you want to do this because I'm going to ask you the tough questions. Right. And you have to. And by the way, that's the, that's what the NFL in that moment didn't realize. But like if you were in a situation where you fucked up, like that's the smartest thing to do. Let someone ask you the tough questions. Answer them the best you can and then everyone can move on. It's when all those questions are still lingering because no one's – you haven't allowed anyone to ask them. You shut everyone down. It's like how Bloomberg handled that.

Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. That's the opposite of, maybe, maybe. My question for you. Yeah. Because I'm getting, I'm coming to you in a key moment of your life. How are you doing with the Tom Brady uncertainty?

I'm checking in in this difficult time for Bill Simmons. I'm way more worried about Kyle. Are you thinking also about the Patriots? No, nephew Kyle does not remember life without Tom Brady. Right. His favorite player. And I said to him last week, like, hey, if we got Teddy Bridgewater and Brady left for like one third of the money, would you be cool with that? And Kyle's like, fuck that.

So, but all of us, I don't know. This feels to me like Kobe's last two years in the Lakers where it's like this ceremonial giant paycheck, thanks for everything, but you can't actually compete? No, that's not the same thing. He's going to be 43. There's no track record whatsoever of him. It's only going to

get worse. It's not like he's going to be like, whoa, what a comeback year for Brady. Man, he's moving better than ever. So do you want him to not resign? If we're going to pay him $30 million a year, then they should just at that Man, he's moving better than ever. So do you want him to not resign? If we're going to pay him $30 million a year, then they should just... At that point, it's like, what are we trying to do? So is this like we care more about Brady?

What decision are you making? I would probably let him go. Wow. I would. I can't believe these words are coming out of your mouth. It's football. You can't... In basketball, at least you could say, we'll pay Kobe $25 million a year. He'll walk off into the sunset.

He'll take a bunch of shots. We'll quietly rebuild and get some lottery picks. And then we'll be able to retool. You can't do that in football. You can't like, there's no like tanking a football season. And Belichick's never going to do that anyway. He's more concerned about his legacy than anything. Yes. And he's not going to pay Tom Brady $30 million.

So I actually think he's going to leave. So this, now I know what's going to get aggregated. Bill Simmons wants Tom Brady off the Patriots. That's what's going to get aggregated. I don't want him off the Patriots. I don't want to pay him $30 million a season and not be able to compete because he feels like he's owed money. I think that's

I think it's crazy for Dak Prescott to make $40 million. What do you think is out there for Brady though? Do you think that he's going to come back to the Patriots a little bit like maybe guys can do something else for Les? My hope is that this is all like a big song and dance to try to put pressure on the team but he's not actually going to leave because

you don't want, do you want to be Hakeem in Toronto and Patrick Ewing in Seattle and Emmitt Smith in Arizona? What do you think his options are? And I don't mean to get paid because someone out there will pay him to have Tom Brady. The Chargers writer rumored to pay him. Is that right? My fear is that he really, honestly, it's like a Tom Cruise thing where he feels like he's achieved this higher being status.

Right. Oh, no, I can absolutely play until I'm 46. I figured this out. Like he really fervently believes that. You know that he thinks that. I know he does. Yes. So.

But at what point do you go, I believe this so strongly, I'm going to play for the Vegas Raiders. That's my point. My point is that he can get the money somewhere else. We know that. We know that some team. But where that like has. But the question is, will those options of where he can get the money feel so cheap that he won't want to do it?

That it would be bad for his brand or legacy or however he thinks of it? And therefore, we'll go back to the Patriots and being like, okay, a little bit less is okay. Because I just—do you think he will have an option, another good option out there, that will both pay him and not feel— It should be the Chargers. So you think that that would feel okay? If I was the Chargers, I would pay him like $90 million for three years or something. If you were Tom Brady, would you go to the Chargers for $30 million a year? I don't know the history of acrimony with him and the Pats,

but there's clearly something way off. Yeah, we know. Like he clearly feels like he took less. Yeah. It was going to be made up for him and it actually wasn't. Yeah. But the whole thing about I need more weapons and stuff, like they tried to get him more weapons.

You know, they spent their first round pick back to back year on a runner and a receiver. They traded a second round pick for a receiver. Like they did try. They just got him the wrong weapons. But if your solution as a quarterback is I need more weapons, that could be any quarterback in the league. Like Mitch Trubisky could say that. I need more weapons.

He could say it. Alan Robinson's not enough. I mean, he could say it. But do you think if you're Tom Brady, do you think that it feels okay to go to the Chargers? I would hope it doesn't. Kyle, you would hope it doesn't. I feel dirty even talking about this. Kyle doesn't like this at all. I have a last question, but I was going to throw one curveball at you. I read a book about Mike Nichols.

Yes. Your family member. Yes. Your father-in-law. Yes. This book was called, I'm trying to read 75 books this year. How are you doing? I'm pretty good. I'm at 10. Okay. I'm on a decent pace.

Somewhere I'll really be able to make up, I feel like, July, August. Okay. This book was like Mike Nichols from 150 people that knew him best or something. I didn't know a ton about him. It was unbelievable. Yeah. He was an incredibly impressive guy.

So was he impressive even like you're having Easter dinner with him and he was like that? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, look, I met my husband when we were teenagers. We went to summer camp together. Yeah. He was one of my first boyfriends, you know, first love. And when I met anyone in his world, his parents, friends, whatever,

they were just his family or his friends or anything. And then 10 years later is when my husband and I got back together and dated as adults and seriously. And that's really when I got to know the people around his family. And, you know, you get blown away by just how smart everyone is. And he was just brilliant. He was a brilliant guy and kind and warm and obviously very funny and responsible for so many things in modern American culture that people don't realize.

But now I assume you do from reading that book. I mean, he and Elaine May kind of popularized improvisation on a national level. See, I didn't know any of that stuff. I knew a little of The Graduate, but the 1950s, what he meant to like, and then the whole thing when he's producing these really famous plays. He produced any.

I mean, there's just, there's so much stuff. You're like, right, he directed The Graduate and he won an Oscar. That would have been enough for anyone. But he also brought you, you know, six of the most famous plays in American culture and also kind of spawned the birth of what became, you know, I could credit him for Saturday Night Live, but you know what I mean?

That whole, that whole culture of doing stuff. He started Second City. I mean, he just did a tremendous amount of stuff. I was very lucky to be able to know him and very lucky to be married to who I'm married to and very lucky to. He was also representative in this book. The book didn't totally go into this, but there's this whole era

and it feels like it's... We're moving into a different version of it, but where you had like him, you had Lorne Michaels, you had Graydon Carter. Yep. This kind of like New York elite that controlled all these different versions

of media and content, but were also like very worldly, had all these friends at these parties. Just really smart. What's the next iteration of that? I don't know. I mean, I think there's still some of that in New York. I mean, I lived in New York for almost 20 years before I came to live out here four years ago.

And it is very different, right? The sort of, you know, living room culture is just very different, that kind of thing. But I think there is a whole circle of people who live and work and operate in New York and entertainment who wouldn't dream of living out here. And then you have a whole group of people, obviously, who live out here. It's cool. It was interesting reading that book about it's this pre-internet world

of people, the way they communicated was they would have parties and dinners and they would get together and they would make an effort. And now it's like, you know, you feel like you're in contact with everybody in your life. You don't even have to see them. But I was fascinated by them. I thought it was a great book. I would recommend it. It's one of my, one of my top 75 books of 2020. I love this. I'm going to check in with you throughout the rest of the year to see how you're doing. I want like a Bill Simmons pace. Like, are you going to have to cram 20 books in December?

How is this going to go? Are you going to get cocky after September and be like, oh man, I read so many books this summer. I got nothing. And then all of a sudden in December, it's going to be like a little dicey. Well, you have to do the whole you got to sprinkle in a couple like Bob Iger book kind of length. Bob Iger's book

was like 190 pages and you bang it out in two days. And not only was it a great book that I enjoyed, but also now I'm on to the next book. But you also don't want to rule out like the 600 page every once in a while. What's the meatiest book on your list? I'm still—I'm rereading some stuff that I've read in the past.

I'm mixing like new ones and old ones, but all nonfiction. Kind of cheating. No, because I think when you read a book once, you forget most of it, and there's some ones that are really valuable books to reread. Okay. All nonfiction is interesting. Especially like when you're older, there's some stuff. Yeah, fiction screws me up.

I read fiction and then I can't handle it. What do you read? Do you read nonfiction or fiction? I read both, but I do find that I absorb what I'm reading. So if I'm reading, you know, there's so many books out there, like the best books of the year list. And they're all like a haunting tale that will leave you in tears. Or true crime. Right. I'm like all like a haunting tale that will leave you in tears. Or true crime. Right.

I'm like, I can't read that right now. Like, I don't know if it's the having young kids and sort of that my emotions are more, like my nerve endings are more raw about tragedy or anything like that. But there's a lot of books where I sort of read what they're being praised for, which is, you know,

will leave you feeling hollow. But I'm like, I don't need that right now in my life. I can put that book off for a couple of years. The weirdest thing about reading books is, you know, like with sports or movies or whatever, you have the internet and you have all these people to immediately share the experience with. And then you read a book and like,

I finished this Mike Nichols book and I'm just looking around. Right, no one's there talking about it. Hey, I'm ready to talk Mike Nichols. Anybody? And here I am walking into you and walking boom it was like a month ago I would have had more

questions a month ago but yeah no I I felt like my brain was going to mush with not reading enough so it's been good it's good

it's been good it's always good to read Rachel Nichols thanks for coming on me coffee tea I look forward to

you're going to be ramping up in the playoffs right oh yeah yeah we're on the road every Saturday right now for ABC and then we will be

doing our usual traveling circus during the playoffs. Do you bring the kids when you go on the road or no? I don't, no. Yeah, that's tough. I mean, also, what are they? They're not interested. No. I remember my kids were pretty young one of the countdown years in the Miami

San Antonio finals went seven. But game six, I was so excited to go home I hadn't seen my kids in like however long and they're up five and I'm texting my wife I'll see you tomorrow and then I'll hell break loose you know better I was like oh my god this is a secret

you know better so wait that's amazing that the yellow ropes and all of that is this great story for all of these basketball fans and for you, it's the five minutes of texting your wife being like, I'm coming home. I was getting sick. My body was starting to break down. I was like, I just want to come home. My daughter was like,

she was I think seven, but it was just that sweet spot with little girls like six, seven where they're just like the best people on the planet to be around. Now I have a 14-year-old, not the same. It's a lot different. I'll just leave it at that. She's a nice person.

Rachel Nichols, thanks for coming on. Thank you. All right. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Thanks to Fox Sports. Premier Boxing. Don't forget, Saturday night, the pay-per-view event of the decade. Deontay Wilder, the knockout king, the bronze bomber.

He's facing Tyson Fury again for the heavyweight championship of the world. I hope it's as great as the first fight was. Two undefeated rivals squaring off. There can't be a draw this time. Somebody's got to go down. Don't miss a historic night live from Las Vegas, Saturday at 9 p.m. Eastern or 6 p.m. Pacific. Buy it now on Pay-Per-View.

And thanks to Square, more than a little way credit card reader, a whole system of tools built to run and grow any kind of business from point of sale and payroll to invoices and online stores. Go to square.com slash go slash BS to see all the ways you can take your business from square one to whatever's next. I'm back on Sunday night, me and Rossello doing our annual, not annual, weekly Sunday night NBA thing. I'll be coming back from the Celtics-Lakers game at that point. So there'll be a lot to talk about.

See you on the side. I don't have feelings with them on the wayside. I don't want to see them on the wayside, never on the side. I don't have feelings with them on the wayside.