The Bill Simmons Podcast - The A’s Leave Oakland, ESPN’s Latest Shocker, and Million-Dollar Picks With Logan Murdock, Bryan Curtis, and Joe House

Episode Date: September 27, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Logan Murdock to discuss the Oakland Athletics' final home game at the Oakland Coliseum, the gradual loss of Oakland's major sports teams, the concept of "sports extortion," and more (2:36). Then Bill talks with Bryan Curtis about ESPN letting go of senior NBA writer Zach Lowe, as well as what this and similar layoffs signal about the direction the company is trying to head (29:54). Finally, Bill and Joe House run through the week's slate of NFL games before making their Million-Dollar Picks for NFL Week 4 (1:01:31) Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Logan Murdock, Bryan Curtis, and Joe House Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up on this podcast, we're going to talk to Logan Murdoch about the last Oakland A's game in Oakland. We're going to talk to Brian Curtis to recap a pretty crazy day where ESPN laid off Zach Lowe. And what does this mean as we head into the end of 24 into 25

for ESPN, what it wants to be? It just kind of felt like a moment. And obviously we worked with Zach and we love Zach, but it was more like, what does this mean for ESPN big picture? And then last but not least,

we're going to talk to Joe House and do Million Dollar Picks with him and talk about why this might be a let's be careful week so that's the podcast first our friends from pearl jam All right, we're probably committing an HR violation here. LoganBurr.com, paternity leave. I think this is the first time I've ever asked anyone on paternity leave or maternity leave to say, hey, come on, we got to do something here.

But this is a momentous day. The Oakland A's last home game tonight. You wrote about them. It's happening right now. It's happening as we speak. As we speak. Yeah, we're taping this on an afternoon. You wrote about this for The Ringer.

This is the last of the three Oakland teams to leave the city over the last five years. Oakland now will have no professional sports after this weekend. So I had to ask, how are you feeling? What's going on? I'm feeling just a range of emotions. I'm sad, first and foremost, that my team is leaving. This is probably, the Raiders are probably the team that I have the most connection to. But the A's are a team that has always kind of been here.

Whereas the Raiders has been defined by its nomadic history, just going from Oakland to LA and the Vegas, right? So you kind of expected the Raiders to leave at some point, but you never really expected the A's to leave. And it's weird. I went to a – you referenced a piece that I did. I went to a game a few months ago, and there was emotions coming out that I didn't feel i didn't even know

we're even there you know like it's i don't think there's i don't the only other comparison to like a team it's like if the mets left new york or something like that right like it's not this the relationship with um baseball in this region um is pretty special right because you have the john you have two iconic franchises not even less than 10 miles from each other in the Giants and the A's. And, you know, it's not like a Clippers-Lakers situation where one team is kind of irrelevant

and another team is the cream of the crop. No, you had two teams that you had to draw battle lines with, right? Like, we're talking about the A's today, but, you know, I can't wear a Niners. If I'm cold and it's freezing, I can't wear a Niners jacket. I can't do it. There's no way that that's even happening

because it's just in my DNA to hate that team. And now there's no other team. There's not going to be any other teams to root for other than San Francisco teams or teams in San Francisco for this region. And that's really tough. You know, the East Bay had its own identity. Specifically, Oakland had its own identity through these sports teams.

And it's really hard to recreate that. I know we have like the Oakland Ballers and, you know, like some semi-pro teams out here, but it's not going to be anything like the A's. It's not going to be anything like the Raiders, the Warriors too, even, right? Like I covered that team. They were in Oakland when they won their, went on their dynastic runner, most of it. And, you know, I feel a. I covered that team. They were in Oakland when they went on their dynastic run

or most of it. I feel a lot of range of emotions. I feel sad that my team's gone. I feel anger because John Fisher, just bar none, the worst owner in sports right now. If you had to put

a ranking for bottom-tier owners, he's right there. There's nobody else in the finals. It's owners, he's, he's right there. Um, and he's been, there's nobody else in the finals. It's the John Fisher tier. It's right there. It's just him playing against himself, but like it's,

it's been really just gut wrenching. And he put out a letter like a couple of days ago talking about just like how sorry he was. And it was just a crock of shit bill. I mean, I don't know if you read it, but it was just basically like we tried to get a, a stadium built.

He did everything in his power to, you know, screw over, um don't know if you read it, but it was just basically like we tried to get a stadium built. He did everything in his power to screw over, you know, not even just like baseball fans, but like team employees. Right. And just like there was a story that came out today in the San Francisco Chronicle about like he's stiffing benefits of the of the stadium workers at the coliseum right like he's just just a terrible owner and to see how this has played out with him is just gut-wrenching because i mean there's a lot of money in the bay area i mean you can just make one call to joe lake of an a's are here right and just to know that it come came down to somebody who never really put money into the team, never really put money into the organization. For years, just took a check from the league from the TV money. He just took the TV money from the league, didn't reinvest into the team, didn't reinvest into the organization, the revenue share. He just took revenue share checks this whole time. And it's just really disappointing

because there's a lot of money in the Bay Area. There's a lot of prideful fans on the East Bay that are not going to have a team, right? Like it's just, or any sort of team. And the fact that the only teams that are available are represent San Francisco. And like, I love San Francisco. I got a lot of family in San Francisco.

That's great. But that's their team. The Niners are there. The Giants are there. Right. People aren't switching over. They're not like, okay, now I'll be a Giants fan. It's not happening. Every time I go to my family's house in San Francisco or in Bayview, they're just talking shit about the Raiders. Like, you know, I'm not going to have that anymore. Right. Like my kid ain't going to have that. that like that's really a thing right now like i know my kid is gonna be probably be a giants fan and a niners fan there's nothing that i can do about it no you can't do stuff about that i i did stuff with my kids i they just knew lakers and yankees were out and they can go fucking live somewhere else like literally there's

your room if you want to keep it you will not be a laker fan so my kids know i sent i sent a i sent a picture in the group chat of like my raiders hat with into like the family murdoch group chat the other day and i just got just torched like why would you just put a loser organization onto your son or this is at this at this stage right and it's tough right because i can't say anything about it but the a's are more gut-wrenching because they're gonna go to vegas and like vegas doesn't even want them. It's just tough all around. But he's following this Mark Davis blueprint of Mark Davis takes the Raiders, moves them to Vegas, gets the city

to pay for like 40% of the stadium, increased the franchise of the stadium, got in with football in a city that's growing as a sports city. But the thing is, the key difference is Vegas is one of the Raiders. You can't convince me that Vegas even wants the A's or baseball in general.

Who's going to baseball in Vegas? And it's not even a dome stadium. Right? Like, who's going to stay? Bill, I mean, I know you love baseball. Are you going to go watch A's Red Sox in the middle of July in Vegas? No. Why would you do that? Never in a million years. I have some thoughts. So, I

grew up, the first Red Sox playoff series ever was over Oakland during that last stretch when Oakland had won the three World Series in a row and then we beat them in like the ALCS. But so there was that Raleigh Fingers, Charlie Finley, there was that era. There was that era where they had all the awesome starters with Mike Norris and all those guys.

Then there was the Ricky era. And that kind of bled in. Those two kind of bled together. Then they had the Dave Stewart, Canseco, McGuire, where all of a sudden they seemed like the most important team in baseball again. Ricky was also on that team too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they had the Moneyball era with Billy Bean

where it seemed like they were just outwitting everybody ends up being a movie. I think what's so shocking to me about it is, and this is not a new lesson, how much power a bad owner can have. Like I saw this in LA with Sterling where not only is there a bad owner, not only is he ruining the culture,

not only is he ruining fans like wanting to even like the team, but you can't get rid of them. They're like the tenant that just figures out how to use any, to use every loophole against the landlord to just never leave. It's like you read those stories on Apple news about this person rented out their back house to somebody. And seven years later, the person's still there and I'm paying paying rent that's what somebody like John Fisher becomes and it's the loophole professional sports

has never figured out once you get a team you can't lose it basically unless you do something awful so he didn't really do anything awful but he was an awful owner and how do you how do you fix that

how do you stop it you can't and now you lose your team yeah and it's like it's hard to even that's a hard pill to swallow right like because even i think about nba right like i know sterling got his team they made himself his but like david stern also like made the maloofs in a roundabout way sell

their team right and like after years of them saying they wouldn't and there has been like a willingness from major league baseball of letting this happen in a way that's just really, I don't want to say criminal because, you know, that's a different connotation, but it's terrible, right? Well, it almost seems like they were cool with maybe shoving baseball out of Oakland and pushing it toward another city. That's how I felt, not knowing anything. Yeah. And then like, I mean, I know there's like connotations of, you know, where the stadium is and things like that, right. In the, in the city of Oakland. And, um,

you know, the pandemic has really, really ravaged the city, um, terms of just homelessness and, and also just stuff with local city government, uh, that is,

that is really gone, gone on right now. But I feel like that's been used as a scapegoat for a lot of teams, right? Like there's not like a team that for most of its existence, at least in the last 30 years, the last long as I've been, sports teams have really just taken advantage of the fact that

of Oakland's insecurity when it comes to wanting a professional team. The Raiders did it when they came back from Los Angeles and just taking all that public money that honestly just got paid back after 30 years and with all that interest being accumulated. And, you know, that's something that I was thinking about when I went to the last game was just, yeah, I love these teams. But, you know, these teams have also taken advantage of citizens like me, right, where they're getting these free passes. And this is modern day sports where

they're getting these free passes to take public money, where public money can probably be best served in a school district, which is Oakland doesn't have or didn't have a great school district when I was growing up, right? And then it's taken away from city funds, taken away from stuff that could really help the city in a lot of ways, right? You're not really investing from it, you're actually taking from it. And that's something help the city in a lot of ways, right? You're not really investing from it. You're actually taking from it. And that's something that the Raiders did. That's something that the A's have done for the last few decades as well, right?

Like, on one hand, it's tough to lose a team that, you know, you kind of seep your identity into, but then on the other hand, it's like, well, you're not really investing in us. You're not investing in the citizens. You're not investing in the kids and the next generation in the way that you say you are. So it's a double-edged sword. And that's sports in the modern day, right? Where you talk about private versus public funds and what gets used and what gets taken away. And then the other side of that, which I dealt with, was our school district was bad. And I had to go a different route, but I was a fortunate one that could... My parents could scrape a little bit of money. We weren't well off by any means, scrape a little bit of money to go to East Oakland and watch Derek Jeter you know

go watch Kobe Bryant go watch LeBron or go watch Peyton Manning some one of my favorite um times ever was getting to see Peyton Manning on Monday Night Football and like 10 minutes from my house like that was crazy um but on the one hand you have that but on the other hand like a lot of people are not getting city funds and not getting um what they're supposed to be getting as citizens. Well, you're talking about sports extortion, where these people that own the teams who have money, who know all the loopholes, and they threaten, well, if you don't do this, we might go. We might go somewhere else. And now you're taking funds that could go to all these good places, and you're just helping pay for this arena that the people could probably pay for anyway i think the fear of that and the reason the city's over and over again will do that is what's happening in oakland right now oakland loses three teams right

plus covid and you think of where where the city was 10 years ago when everybody was talking about oakland's on the upswing. You know, all this good stuff's happening here. And then now all of a sudden there's no team. And whether we want to admit this or not, so much of a city's identity can come from sports

and from the heroes people have and the stadiums and the joint experiences. And once you pull that out, that's the reason like Oklahoma City, when there was even a little hint that they might lose the thunder, like they've figured that shit out. That's the reason Oklahoma City, when there was even a little hint that they might lose the Thunder, they figured that shit out. The mayor's like, no, we got this.

That's happened in Kansas City too with the Chiefs, right? We're going to go to Kansas if you don't pay up for Arrowhead or pay up for stadium improvements, right? Right. And it works because there's always people to point to, right? You can point to the Seattle. They lost to Supersonics. They still don't have basketball. You can point to Hartford. Hartford had the Whalers. That was a great rival to the Bruins when I was growing up. Buffalo Braves. Yeah, Buffalo Braves is another one where

you lose that team and now at least Buffalo had the Bills. Hartford has nobody. They've never had a team. They've never been able to get one back. Seattle has other teams, but they've never been able to get basketball. And I guess with Oakland, now they're going to say, well, San Francisco's right there.

You can go see. But I don't think that's how people are wired. You've been to Bay Area. That bridge, psychologically, it's 10 minutes or 10, 15 minutes away, but it's a whole world away. It's not as simple as we're going gonna get on

a bridge like it's it from where i live in the east bay it takes it'll probably take an hour to get to a to a uh to a to a san francisco game and i can see san francisco from where i live you know and it's it's not that and also like you even talk about like just how much oakland has been through over the last 10 years, right? Like, yeah, it was popping in Oakland, even during, like, when you came for the Warriors run, it was on the up and up. But, like, also on the other side of that, a lot of my homies were pushed out.

A lot of people that look like me were pushed out due to gentrification, you know? And, like, Oakland has been through a lot, and it's really hard to imagine what's next for this city. Forget a sports team, you know? I want to see what Oakland does as a city going forward because it's really been hit hard over the last few years. And it's, it's, and I don't know, like, one thing that teams bring is spotlights to other things that are happening into, into what's going on in the region.

And, you know, I want to, I wonder what Oakland is going to be without that spotlight of just good and bad, right? Like the spotlight of we need to do better, but also of like, you know, the good things that we are doing. Because Oakland has a stigma. You know, I think it's the greatest place on Earth. I love being from here. I love, you know, living near here and love being around in Oakland.

And, you know, it is hard to, when you hear an out of towner, you know, say like, Oh man, you from Oakland. Oh man, it's this, it's that. And then you, then it's like, what on one hand is like, what can you say? But also like, it's a beautiful town. It's a beautiful place that has continued to be on the short end of the stick based on all the things that we're talking about. And I'm, I don't, I don't want it to have that stigma, you know? That's going to be the hard part. Well, you know what's interesting

about that? You made me think of how when I would go to Oakland, I would see the stadiums, right? Yeah. And even like during the Warriors run from... Because right off the airport,

you get on the freeway right there. You could see the stadiums. And it's like, man, that baseball stadium's in rough shape. Like sometimes you can see the sports buildings of cities and say,

what's going on there? Why don't they have a new stadium? But it was almost like they were intentionally making the baseball stadium worse and worse. That was the one part I didn't understand with Fisher. What was the point of making the baseball stadium almost a health hazard? It was probably the most unsafe baseball stadium or football stadium or any stadium that anybody in the country had in the last 25 years.

I didn't understand that game plan at all. It was some weird sabotage. It just felt like some weird sabotage, right? Because on the other hand, right, like if you were to pinpoint

the perfect place to put a stadium in Northern California, that site is the perfect one. If you talk, if you want to talk about public transportation, getting right there for Bart, it's right next to the airport.

Uh, but that goes to that, that the reason why teams didn't want to be there. And I'm including the warriors and including the Raiders in this place, because it's a, um, it's, it's not not i'm trying to say the right way to say this but it's it's it's a lot of it's a lot of black and brown people

it's a lot of low income people it's not a place where people think that they can sell against advertising or sell a sell a stadium like hey we could put it in middle of east oakland a lot of people with money are scared of that reality that That's why they kept doing the Howard Terminal when there was a local residents were like, yo, you already have a stadium and a great stadium site. Why don't you just use that? They were trying to go and build around it. That was the big thing, right? Because you went there and it was just basically the stadiums and that was it. And it was traffic in and out. But that's what I'm saying. Like these teams don't want to invest in these parts of the town. Instead, they want to invest in other places that really don't make as much sense. Because if you, if you were going to go to Howard terminal, then you're messing with the ports and you're messing with a lot of other people that are black and brown, right? Like you're messing with a lot of other things when you could do it right here. And that's what I'm talking about. The, the double-edged sword. Cause you're like, man, I want my team here, but also they're not investing in us. And that's something that like, that's what I'm talking about the the double-edged sword because you're like man I want my team here but also they're not investing in us and that's something that like that's always been a been on the front of the minds of East Bay people in Oakland citizens in general the flip

side of that has been what's happened in England where they put you know SoFi Bomber just built this awesome Clippers arena and you're seeing money trickle in there now part of that is because it's the opportunity. That was one of the only places to develop real estate, but it's also people trying to invest in that part of extended LA and trying to figure out, you know, could we have stuff down there? I would just say one thing about the

Englewood, the Englewood thing, man. I wish that LA's public transportation was like even a little bit better because it is hard as hell to get to the forum and so far. It's definitely not going to be easier too we'll see how it goes with the cooper games but you know i my thinking with that is maybe 10 years from now it'll be better it's weird to me though because i always thought the thing that always struck me going to warriors games was how convenient it was off of the airports and i it just was a lot easier than

maybe some of these other cities. And why the right person didn't grasp it. It's really hard to get to Chase Center. Like if you go at a certain time, it's pretty hard. You know, and whereas going to Oracle, it was like, I don't know, you stay at that one hotel downtown.

Or if you stay in San Francisco, you just take, you know, it's just an easier experience just to get around. Well, do you think, what have the Warriors lost in that new arena? In your opinion, because I know you've been

there a bunch and I, you know, everybody loved going to the Oakland games, although the 2000 version of that was so much better, but still there was definitely an atmosphere that you know, now it just feels very fancy. It's very sanitized.

I'm really glad I'm not coming back to the top of the year because I ain't trying to hear nobody from the Warriors get mad at me when I say this, but it's the truth. Taste Center is just a very plastic version of a modern-day stadium. There was a little bit of soul in that finals run, but you

started to see the shift. I would say even back in the Oracle days from 18 and 19, you started to see the shift. I would say like, even back in the Oracle days from 18 and 19, you started to see the shift and just, there will be complaints from the lawyers. Like, yo, why isn't as loud as it used to be? Why are people not like,

why aren't they into the game? Right. And it's even more so now, especially now that they have those lower level suites. I've never seen lower level suites. I didn't even know what those were until I went to Chase Center. They have those lower-level suites where, and you see it on TV when you come back from halftime, and there's nobody in the lower bowl, right?

Because everybody's in the clubs. They're in the JP Morgan Club. They're in the Golden Gate Club. And it's a lot more techie now, right? Yeah. It's a big tech ethos. They're catering now to the Silicon Valley, the South Bay, as opposed to, you know, what made Oracle magical.

And I get it, right? Like, you want to make, the Warriors want to make as much money as possible. This is one of the biggest windfalls in American history in the tech business, right? You want to feed off of that. But as a consequence, like, it can be dead. If you go to a Tuesday game in January, it can be dead. If you go to a Tuesday

game in January, it can be pretty dead at Chase Center. As opposed to Oracle. Wait until five years from now and it's like, and here he is, Brandon Podzemski! Oh, man. There's no Steph Curry anymore because he's in Charlotte with his dad.

It's going to be louder at the Valkyries games than it is at the Warriors games in about three and a half years. I was going to ask you about that. I'm excited. Wouldn't the big win would have been to put that team in the old Oracle? Yeah, but here's another thing. They tried to juice it back up. I know

why they couldn't because they own the team and they're trying to get dates in there and the whole thing. I like the fact that they were going to put it at Chase Center because those ladies deserve first-class amenities. No, I get it. I'm just saying. That could have been a good link, though, to the old era.

So, you know, they're actually putting the practice facility. They redid the whole practice facility at the Oakland Marriott. So that's where the ladies are going to be practicing and it's like a state-of-the-art thing. So they're doing right by Oakland. The Warriors and the Valkyries are doing right by Oakland. That team's going to be practicing and they have like a state-of-the-art thing. So they're doing right by Oakland. Like the Warriors and the Valkyries are doing right by Oakland. That team's going to crush.

What'd they get? It was a $50 million expansion fee? They've already probably tripled that thanks to the Caitlyn era. And you know Lakob's trying to get Sabrina. Stop playing. You already know that that's probably the first or second meeting

to get Sabrina in like three years. Well, what's weird is I think with the way the salary cap works there, it's not like you can bowl over another team. You can just... Well, what's weird is I think with the way the salary cap works there, it's not like you can bowl over another team. There's another TV deal coming very soon for the W. So it's going to... And also, don't underestimate

if he really wants to make a splash with this, obviously, right? He doesn't want to get into W to be a mediocre franchise. This could be his new thousand points of late. Listen, the Warriors are going to... In about five years, the Warriors are probably years the warriors are probably gonna suck right so i mean if you have a if you have some sort of and here's an if you have some sort of like championship ethos or something that lake of kin um lake of kin like pang has had on another thing that's interesting and this is

just this is something that you're going to enjoy because i know you love owner beef and i'm not saying this is technically owner beef but it is like owner like side eye think about the dynamic between mark davis and joe lakob for the aces versus the valkyries right oh yeah joe lakob joe lakob has seen mark davis's work right just being in the bay area this whole time you can't tell me that he's not looking at like mark davis and the aces like i want to kick their ass. Like, just off of GP, right? There's going to be that. There's going to be the Joe Lacob with Joe Sy out with the Liberty. There's going to be some owner beef. Wait, just wait until there's a next generation of W basketball.

It's just as we get more money and more NBA owners investing, just keep a lookout for that owner beef. Well, think about, so it was supposed to be them and Portland were supposed to be the two teams last year for 50 million each. Then Portland, the guy backed out. So it only ended up being the Golden State team. Then a year passes

and then Toronto comes in for 125. So it's already two and a half times higher just in one season. And I mean, the shit, if Caitlin had been able to pull off that game yesterday and just got into a game three, that would have been the biggest rating in the history of the league. But I think that I was waiting for Caitlin versus Diana Taurasi.

That was what I wanted. That's what I was rooting for. But you know, I'll tell you, here's, here's how far the WNBA has come. I had a three team series parlay that I put real money on with the sun, the sun and the other two heavy favorites.

I thought the Sun were going to wipe out the fever. Aren't you proud of me? I'm so proud of you because I've been locked in on the W, as you know. Just for the listening audiences, we're at the end of this. Let's go three minutes on the W real quick. I'm really intrigued by this Aces-Liberty

matchup coming up. I know that the Liberty are favored, and I've heard it. I've seen Andrea Carter already pick the Liberty. But I'm... Fuck that. There's a look in Asia's eyes that is like 20... What? 2018 LeBron, except I think she's going to win it.

Like, I think that's... There's a look in her eye where the team isn't as good as it should be. Chelsea Gray's already been injured, right? Like, they've had some... Kelsey Plum has dealt with some stuff, but Asia has been steady, and she has a look in her eye, and she all... I think the Liberty are so soft,

and I think that the Aces are going to go through them, and I think that they're going to win another championship. I think it's one of those things that is destined. I will say, really good home buzz in those Liberty games. That's like a genuine atmosphere now. Dare I say tough place to win. Yeah.

But Hey, Hey, I've been to every time my, my, uh, every time I take my summer league quest to Vegas, I'd make sure that I go to an aces game. I think it's,

I still think it's the best environment because there's, there's it's Barclays is still an NBA arena and that like, there's other stuff to do. There's nothing else to do in that Mandalay Bay arena except watch the game and they are on top of you. It is popping. It is loud and they have the Chicago Bulls, the 90s Bulls that they're watching. They get really into

it. It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. I bet on the links a month ago and I still feel good about it. If he's a call, you're 42 points. The links are like legit good. They're really good and they have a great coach. Well, since you went on paternity leave, we launched a Ringer WNBA podcast. So when you come back, you'll have a place to get off your takes with Syrit.

I can't wait. With Syrit, I can't wait. Syrit, have me on the show. Yeah. This is my last show, though. I'll see you guys at the top of the year. It's my last show. Yeah, yeah.

No, we had to do this. This was the one thing. How's it going with the little homie? Little homie's doing good. He's a beast. He's eating us out of a copy of yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we had to do this. This was the one thing. How's it going with the little homie? Little homie's doing good. He's a beast. He's eating us out of a house and home. I haven't gotten sleep.

It's good to see somebody outside of this house for the first time in weeks. Welcome to Dad Club, by the way. I'm here. I'm really here. As I told you,

really, really enjoy those first 15 years because we literally don't see either of our kids anymore and they're not even 20 yet. So goes fast that's what i heard i'm i'm excited i'm trying to get this raiders propaganda i'm done with the a's i don't can't believe i'm wearing this hat right now but i'm gonna try to see well it's the last thing it's all i got is him being a raiders fan that's all i have like we'll see we'll see all right logan murdoch we'll see you in 2025

thanks for popping on we appreciate it good to see your, we'll see you in 2025. Thanks for popping on. We appreciate it. Good to see your face. Good to see you too. Thanks, man. Thanks, Kyle. Kick off this NFL season with a win on FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, all customers get a profit boost

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Seed terms for both offers at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem call. 1-800-GAMBLER. Visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me. I can't go a day without sports. I really can't.

And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey. And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday Night Hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey. It's on Monday. It's on Prime. All right. Brian Curtis is here. You can hear him on the press box. He's the editor

at large of The Ringer. We've been working together since 2011. We have some conflicts of interest to disclose before we do this part of the podcast. Zach Lowe, who worked with us at Grantland, who I think was the best all-around basketball person who did this in the NBA, was let go by ESPN today. It was a layoff. It was another ESPN layoff. There's been a few of these. It's not like I've done a podcast every time and obviously I'm friends with Zach, but it just felt like there's a moment here with ESPN that I felt like we should hit. And you agreed and we're just going to talk about it. So what was your reaction when you heard? The first reaction was, wait a second, you just renewed

the NBA rights for two and a half billion dollars. And then you laid off the best NBA writer in America in the same breath that really happened like a week and change after the biggest NBA newsbreaker in America left the network. And, you know, that was the first reaction. And then the second reaction is something you and I've said over the years as we've seen these layoffs and people walk out the door of Bristol is if ESPN doesn't have room for Zach Lowe, who does ESPN have room for? And who do they want in the room? It's kind of the question, isn't it? It's clearly a strategy and they clearly value certain things.

And I think everybody gets mad anytime something like this happens and I get it. But to me, it's more interesting what the strategy is and what they're thinking and where Zach fit into that. Because obviously,

and they had an issue with this 10 years ago when I was there. They didn't know how to monetize podcasts. what they're thinking and where Zach fit into that. Because obviously, you know, and they had an issue with this 10 years ago when I was there. Like they didn't know how to monetize podcasts. They didn't know how to get real value from them. Zach's biggest value is as a writer and a podcaster and a steward of the game and also somebody who can go on TV and be good. But it seems like what they value now

is people who can do TV hits first and foremost and hits that you can cut into 70 to 90 second videos that can go on their website or go on YouTube. And the better the headline is for those hits, that seems to be where the value is. And I'm not besmirching some of the people that do that stuff. I'm just saying that seems to be how the value is. And I'm not besmirching some of the people that do that stuff. I'm just saying that seems to be how they value it.

It's either that or the giant names, which you've covered many times in ringer pieces, like getting the best possible people to cover a football game, right? Spending money in the high-end town. I'm sure they're going to bring back Stephen A. Smith. But I think that's what they're becoming. I think what's're going to bring back Stephen A. Smith. But I think that's what they're becoming.

I think what's so fascinating to me is that it's the opposite of where they were 10 years ago, when they seemed to try to want to be everything, but also really have, I guess, for lack of a better word, a soul. I'm not sure what the soul is going to be if this is what your strategy is. So that's my big take. First of all, we should congratulate Zach for inaugurating a whole new era of television where you would come on television in your sweats. Remember, he was doing that even before COVID.

It would be a TV hit and everybody be in their suits and we'd see Zach from his apartment and you'd be like, look at that. That guy looks slightly different than people I'm used to seeing on TV. Now that's what we all do on Zoom. So I completely agree with you. And I think the strategy is fascinating because ESPN, like every other media company in America

is walking across this bridge from the world of cable television to the world of streaming and over the top. And they're making a decision who's coming over the bridge with us. Who do we want to be part of this new world? And they've picked a couple of big guys, the Stephen A's and the Pat McAfee's. They've picked a ton of sports rights, which they've done a good job signing up. But the interesting question to me is like, this all feels very TV oriented to me. It feels like we're getting people to do these TV hits, even though

we're kind of admitting we're not really a TV company anymore. You know, if, if Zach's value, if you're saying, well, we can't see the value of him as like a TV guy cutting up those 60 second clips that now dominate the website,

but isn't there money to be made with a Zach Lowe NBA podcast? Like, isn't that apparently not if ESPN selling it. Um, I just, I just find that weird, but it's not, listen,

it's not their business. You know, what you've seen a lot of that from a lot of the stuff they've been doing the last five years is outsourcing stuff, right?

Omaha is producing more and more shows for them. It's kind of insane. Why aren't you producing your own shows? You know, why are you constantly like,

Connor left and his company does a bunch of 30 for 30s and produces the ESPYs for them. It's like, why aren't you guys doing this? So on the one hand, they're outsourcing a bunch of stuff. And then as concurrently, they seem like they're throwing away at least the podcast piece of everything. They have podcasts. They have a bunch of them. But it doesn't seem like they care because if they cared, they would have kept Zach. When you talk about this new world that they're entering, the world is sports rights and just enough people to seem like you're

still the biggest. Is that what it is? It's totally flipped, hasn't it? Because remember all the ESPN, they didn't really have the games you wanted to watch but they had the people you wanted to listen to and new espn now has all the games you want to watch they have the super bowl in 2027 they have the nba finals they have all these huge packages but they don't really have the people that you want to hear talk about the games a lot

of the time still plenty of good people there I don't want to write everybody off. By the way, how many times have we been playing that game, you and I, over the last 10 years where we say, you know what, at least ESPN has, and then we fill in the blank with somebody everybody likes. At least they still have Mina. At least they still have Wickersham. And Zach was on that list before today.

And that list is getting really, really small. But what, I mean, what's the point of having feature hardcore feature journalism at this point anymore? So you're going to dabble in that every once in a while, but not always have it, or you're going to have some of it, or you're going to have a new version of it. That's another thing. I just, I, my point is I don't understand the strategy. I feel like I've always understood at least somewhat what they're doing. And now it seems like their strategy is five different things happening at the same time because now they're on the gambling side too, right? So they got in super late on that, probably like four years too late.

Doesn't seem like they're in on podcasts the same way. Seems like they're really in on the YouTube, TikTok, all that social stuff. And that seems to be the thing they point to when they talk about success things. They also talk about how the ratings are up, but we all know the ratings are up because they started counting bar TVs and airport TVs and things like that. The ratings aren't actually up. It's just the way they count the ratings, it's more people. But I do wonder, to me, the next one is PTI. What happens with that show? Because we're seeing a certain shift toward a certain type of content. And where does PTI and two old guys that are beloved and institutions at the place who are one of a kind and the show is always the best

when Will Bond and Cornhizer are on it. Where do those guys fit going forward? And this is the first time I wouldn't be surprised they're just like, yeah, we got rid of Will Bond and Cornhizer. Two guys that were grandfathered in, no offense to Mike and Tony, from another age of television. But to me, the whole daytime ESPN is a real question, right?

Because in the cable TV universe, what did you do? You just turned on just turn on espn and for a lot of it was just on all day so that floated a certain kind of programming during the day is that going to exist when we get to streaming world at four in the afternoon just when there's not a game on it just i would just want to put espn on to be the background noise so i think're right. Like that show doesn't fit in with what the Pataro regime vision of ESPN has been. But I also just think ESPN is probably just changing in a very, very fundamental way. And I don't know how much daytime ESPN there's going to be because that's really one of the only things left besides around the horn. Well, what we haven't seen streaming sports stuff, just talking head stuff work for people like,

I will go to Peacock and watch this. I will go to Paramount and watch this. People aren't doing that. Oh, Max says that they don't. But people are in the habit, maybe this is older people and maybe it's not people 25 and under of, oh, I'm just going to put ESPN on.

And I wonder if maybe that's starting to fade too. So it just feels like it's getting louder and more distinct. But on the other hand, they're still taking swings. Like they're spending more money on the Manicast, right? Yeah. They took a bunch of swings with their NBA coverage. None of them worked. They went and they spent money on Doc Rivers.

Like they doubled down on JJ. They were paying Woj as much money as anybody. But now you think like the last year, I mean, just NBA in general, the last year, they lose Doc, they lose JJ. They lose their lead color analyst twice

after firing Van Gundy, right? Woj is just gone. Now Zach Lowe's gone. It's just, it's kind of your brain spinning. And now I guess what we're going to get, and I like Stephen A, so this is not a slight at Stephen A and I really think he's a good guy, but it feels like they're moving toward, it's a Knicks playoff game. Here's Stephen A's entrance. And that's kind of what they think people want. And I don't think they're right. No. How did that go over with Jason Kelsey during the Eagles game the other day?

And people were just like, I don't want this. This is too much. They were trying so hard. Yeah. And I like Jason Kelsey, but I didn't like the way they used him. Then he stayed in the booth

and it's all of a sudden Aikman's gone from a game that was really good. Because as soon as somebody's in a booth, you know this, they have to interview him. And Jason, nobody knows better than you that that tush push, you just have to figure out ways to work the guy in. It's like, Buck and Hickman are the best announcing team we have.

What are you guys doing? Can we talk about the center some more? This is great. Great content. Keep going with this. I want to come back to your idea about the soul of ESPN because I think that is a really interesting question because when you write stuff like this or say stuff like this, ESPN will come back. But did you see the rights package we just signed? Did you see how we got the entire SEC, the entire college football playoff? Man, they have lost so many things about ESPN that made it unique over the last decade and plus. I put a list together a couple of years ago when we did a piece about ESPN layoffs. One of the many stories I've read about it. Yeah. Dude, when you just look at the list, Simmons, Rosillo, the Grantland gang. Okay. That's inside the house

here. Michael and Jamel, Dan Levitard, Keith Olbermann, Wesley Morris, Matthew Berry, Mark Stein, Chad Ford. You want me to keep going? Chris Felica, Tom Rinaldi, like Mike, did I say Tirico already? Adam Amin, Jason Benetti. I mean like Bomani, both Mike Golix. Like I could go on and on and on. Just think. Three Mike Golix. I think there's four Mike Golix. Many, many Mike Golix. Just think of how many people walked out the door. And again, your mileage may vary on some of those people. And I totally understand that, but it's like people have fewer entry points to get into ESPN,

right? That was part of the cool thing about old ESPN. You could like this and not like this, but you'd still be in the ESPN mothership because you're like, I like bill. I like Rosillo. I like this. I like Mike and Mike in the morning. This is my entry point. Those people are all gone. Right. Well, you know, what else was interesting about it is it seems like there's a certain, granted Twitter is Twitter, but I did notice Zach was trending today, but it also said he was trending with Kendrick Perkins. And that was one of the interesting topics of this, right? Is that people were looking at this, like ESPN is choosing this Kendrick Perkins direction of their basketball coverage over the Zach Lowe direction.

I don't even know. I mean, look, there's a million reasons why something like this can happen. But I don't necessarily blame Kendrick for some of the stuff he says or the way he's trying to provoke people because they're telling him to do that. If you're being produced a certain way, if you're being incentivized a certain way and you're on TV and you want to gain more and more whatever,

power, you want to be on TV more, you want to make more money, you're going to do what the people are like, that was great. I loved what you said about how Jason Tatum isn't an alpha. Just stare in the camera and do that again for 90 seconds. And that's just the way this shit's going to go. So there's really like for the people that bitch about it, just don't watch.

That's really the only way any of this stuff's going to change. If you don't like this direction, wherever we're going, you don't have to watch it. I don't watch this stuff in the morning anymore. Do you? Are you watching their morning shows? I'm so little. I mean, so little. And I only see the clips and then it's that 45 second clip you're talking about. Perk goes off on Jason Tatum. I'm like, okay. But look, it's not, you're right. It's not a one for one trade. It's not like they say, okay, we can either pick Perk or we can pick perk or we can pick Zach and one, only one of them can stay. I don't think it quite works like that, but it's not, not that either. Because just like you said, they figured out what they want, right?

Some of those people are good. Orlovsky, people like that, but like, we want that guy and give us 45 seconds, really good meaty seconds. And then we're going to put that on the website. That's going to be the new article for us. Other articles. Like right now there's a video perk. Nobody is scared of the Celtics with a picture of Perk and Jason Tatum.

It's like, what? Nobody's scared of the Celtics? Click. That's kind of where we're going now. And I don't know. Maybe we're like the older people now who are nostalgic for some era that's just gone anyway.

But I do feel like, especially when we were there 10 years ago, they didn't care about the big picture of some of this stuff. And now it seems like they intermittently care. See, I don't feel like an old guy on this. Because you and I being old guys would be like, where's the original edition of the Sports Reporters? When it had the guys from the Chicago Tribune.

That's what I wanted to see. We're talking about Zach freaking Lowe, man. Yeah. If you want to reach young basketball fans, isn't that one of the ways to do it? Yeah, and also like somebody that was a real, a thought leader and inspiration to a whole generation of people

and also a fucking awesome guy. We worked with him. The guy gives a shit. He puts in his time. He doesn't, he's not a look at me, look at me. He's a really generous teammate. Um, he just does so many, there's just so many good things that come with working with that guy that if you don't appreciate that, that's, that's nuts. I just don't, I don't understand that. But you know, part of me wonders, like the evil side of me wonders, do they do this knowing somebody else is going to pick them up and they're

just off the hook? It's almost like when baseball teams leave, you know, their right field, they're unprotected on the waiver wire, knowing somebody might actually claim them. Yeah. Timing.

This is weird. He was the only guy that they didn't do. They laid off right before this whole end of the quarter thing nobody else was in it they're back channeling and telling people no no this is part of the rg3 sam ponder thing it is why why didn't you do this two months ago then yeah you're doing it right before the nba season he he was on nba today he did a podcast with jj reddick. So what are you doing? It's funny. To your point, I had somebody text me today. It's like, it's not a bad time to be

an NBA media free agent right now, given what's happening with all the rights. There are people out there in a year who are going to want people. I've heard that, but look at Amazon's NFL coverage. There's no reporter on that stuff. They just have ex-players and a host. This is Albert Weir erasure, Bill? You know what I mean? It's not like there's going to be 40 jobs. It's not like they're going to have some whole universe built around reporting stuff. I don't know. I wish I could explain ESPN, and I just can't.

The gambling thing, I think, was the first sign that maybe they were just outright missing on stuff. And when you just have to keep doing this over and over again and rebooting who you are and what you're trying to be, now they've pinned themselves in a position with Stephen A where they basically have to keep him. Oh, absolutely. He can name his price.

He's coming across the bridge. I mean, like I said, when we're talking about people who are going to be part of the new ESPN, Stephen A is part of it. Yeah, that has to be. But there's also like a little bit of a lawlessness that as somebody who was suspended for three weeks and suspended on Twitter a couple of times. Wait, what?

I look back at some of the stuff I did. It wasn't one-tenth as bad as some of the stuff that people do now. Ryan Clark openly challenging them about his extension. Do they have bosses? What's happening? This is the thing. It's the player's coach

era of ESPN2 where the people we pick, we pick them and we let them do what they want. We're not worried about. Including if they want to have a sex tape on Instagram. That's fine. I'll look the other way on that one. Is it going to be a first take Tuesday? Okay, cool. Oh my God. Uncle's getting it on. I just don't understand it. Who's in charge? What are you trying to do?

Yeah. I mean, that's what I say. And again, like I said, every time I say these words, and you know, we've had some moments here. I believe I had a column called ESPN's Year from Hell a little bit earlier in 2024. Look at the sign. Just sign the sports rights. Just re-sign the college, got the whole

college football playoff. I mean, that's what ESPN is now, right? It's the games you want to see. That's if you're looking for a strategy, the strategy is the games you want to see a handful of guys who host talk shows and we'll figure out the rest. Well, I wonder if it's almost like what happened with movies in the two thousands. So they're like, let's just do franchises. Instead of spending money on these 10 movies and hoping one of them hits, let's just go get a fucking DC Comics thing going and we'll make Lethal Weapon 7 and we'll just

do some sequels and let's everybody turn our brains off and not try to make good stuff. The ESPN's version of that is sports rights. Like, hey, we have all the sports rights. It doesn't really matter who's announcing them except for football. And it doesn't really matter what the shows are around them because people are going to watch the games anyway, and we're fine.

Yeah. Though I do come back to like, you just spent so much money on the NBA. So the NBA is one of your franchises. That's one of your Marvel franchises that ESPN. So don't you want the best people around it? Even if they're not, you know, my brain, like surely you want other people around there. Yeah. But they did. They just had the most rollercoastery Rocky kind of behind the scenes year ever covering the league last year. Right. Did it ultimately

matter? People are still walking. They're like, I'm not watching game four tonight. There's too much chaos at ESPN. People don't care. Ultimately, they could have... JJ's leaving and they have Woj reporting on it. And it's this whole basically internally created soap opera around the Laker job that they're just getting clicks out of. And it was annoying,

but it didn't stop people from watching the finals. Now you're sounding like the ESPN management because you're going, oh, well, it doesn't matter as long as we have the games. I'm just trying to figure out what they're thinking. Yeah. I think that's what they're thinking. It's like, guess what? People are going to watch sports and the UFC deal is going to come up. We're going to redo that.

We're going to have UFC. We're going to have NBA. We have college football. We have WNBA now, which is growing big time. On and on and on. We have sports all the time and that's why people come. We've done a million research models on this and this is what people want.

Where they missed was the ESPN bet because they just got in too late. They have no chance with that. I completely agree. But you know what? This sucks because it's Zach and Zach's great. So it just sucks. You know, like it's not fun and it's not, it's not, again, I just, your soul just keep

coming back to that word because you just look at ESPN like, I want to visit ESPN a little bit less today. It's not going to die. ESPN is not over. You know, there's no need to go in for the full think piece treatment here, but it's a little worse today. Maybe a lot worse without him. What do people say? Because you talk to everybody and you've been at the forefront of smartly writing about sports media and not going crazy and not getting caught into like, I have this scoop, but just

trying to write big picture takes about where things are going and where things are leaning and where things are moving and what little trends are happening and trying to explain why this happened, incorporating the history of things. When people talk to you about ESPN, what are the most common things they ask you? Well, it's interesting because before, I think 10 years ago and certainly like 15 years ago, it felt like the ultimate destination. And especially became in the 2010s, the ultimate destination for sports writers, not just for people who wanted to be the next sports center anchor, which was kind of a funny flip, right? ESPN became the worldwide leader in sports writing for a pretty long patch

there. And you and I were both a part of that. You much obviously much more than me, but you know, what's funny is when I talk to people now, very few of them say, talk about ESPN as a place they aspire to work at. And it's not that they think ESPN is bad. I just don't think they think that's attainable anymore. Right. They're just, they just don't see that as like a logical pathway. Because again, if you don't have room for Zach, do you have room for me? You know, it doesn't, it just doesn't compute. So I think for a certain type of person, it's just not even on the, on the bingo card anymore as a place they would work. The other piece of it, and we'll see if Shams is a part of this, whether they want to stay in the information business in the post-Woj era.

And some people in my life were like, Woj, maybe he knew he was getting laid off and they gave him a heads up and he got out. That's not what happened. I think he was genuinely, there's no conspiracy theory on Woj. I think he was burned out and I think he just wanted to do the St. Bonnet thing, felt like he made enough money. But this information culture that they've created, where all that mattered was getting those scoops, which you and I never really understood. And I'll be interested to see if they break away from that or not. I think the big scoops matter, right? If you know somebody's getting traded, like a major player's getting traded. If you know a team's getting sold. if you know somebody's going to retire. But when it comes down to Isaac Okoro has signed a three-year $38 million extension negotiated by Brian Curtis of Curtis Agent Media, that's where you lose me. So I wonder, are they going to double down

on this information error or maybe start shifting away from that too? My guess would be they'll start shifting away. Maybe. Can you think they can unhook themselves from the machine that they hook themselves up to with Woj and Schefter and Jeff Passan and everybody else? What's the upside of it? So the upside is you're not being embarrassed that other people are getting the scoops, right?

But I mean, I'm not ashamed to admit, like at The Ringer, like we've never cared about that stuff because our theory was always, well, the stuff will come out and then we'll react to it, right? We want to have the best, this happened, what do you think?

People, we don't really care if we have the people who are burning the phone lines trying to break information. So I guess from an ESPN standpoint, I know it was important to have Woj. On the other hand, a lot of the stuff was his Twitter feed, which isn't on ESPN, and they're not really able to monetize in any way. Now he can give them a heads up, stuff's coming. He can do like a Monday morning, I'm about to do this. Nobody has it. Get ready. For the most part, unless it's like a giant thing, I don't really see the upside. I don't personally get it. What do you think? I never have. I mean, I've never seen it other than what you mentioned, which is having the name of a rival media company on the bottom line where you have to credit them

when they break something, which is obviously what drove them. Yahoo's agent Wojnarowski reports, dot, dot, dot, which completely drove them bonkers when they had to do that. But I had fantasy on PressBox last week and we were talking about this, having almost the same conversation. He's like, I don't get it. Not only why do you necessarily want that why do you want somebody at that price point that you have to pay them to be the ultimate insight yeah because you know even if it's sham's coming over that's gonna be a lot of money i mean that's that's millions of dollars right like that's that's what the price to get him is going to be so you're going to here's the time of the company when it's tight when when you're trying to cut talent salaries, do you want that much money just to have the pride of not having it on the

bottom line? Is that it? You know, cause you're going to do, I think that's literally it. I don't think there's another reason. I mean, I think it's about if we're supposed to be the worldwide leader, how do we not have this stuff? But I think what happened to Woj's career the last 15 years is pretty informative, right? From 2010 to 2014, he was a really fearless basketball journalist, right? He operated a lot like how Matt Bellany is writing his Hollywood column now for Puck. He was really well-sourced, but he also didn't play favorites. He didn't play favorites, didn't favor trade, didn't do any of that stuff. And within 10 years, favor trading was the

business. And I honestly feel like that was part of the reason he probably got out. Because I think in your DNA, if you want to be a reporter and you want to be fearless to shift the other way, where now everything is a favor trade, I don't know how you can do that for that long. It's funny. I talked to Sean about this the other day, but the amazing thing about insiders to me is also you can never say, I don't know. You know, when something breaks or when there's something going on, you can never come on television and be like, I don't know the answer to the question. Right. We know as journalists, even if we think we have sources, there are times when you just don't know. You really don't say there's a lot of times, a lot of times. Right. But you all,

there's this idea that not only do you have to like, I can't take my phone in the shower or whatever that thing you were laughing about the other day was, but you just can't say, I don't know, because then all the magic disappears. You're not the almighty insider anymore. What, you don't know? You don't know what's about to happen? And to me, that's always just like, what? Just a strange existence for anybody to be in, much less a journalist.

Part of me is thinking if this does end, there are some benefits, right? We could watch an NBA or NFL draft and not have every pick benefits, right? Like we could watch an NBA or NFL draft and not have every pick spoiled, right? We could have TV pregame shows where we don't have to like awkwardly shoehorn the insider to be like, I am hearing that Memphis is very interested in a center.

And we could, I don't know, just talk about other stuff. But the big picture point, we're heading in 25 with this new streaming only ESPN thing. And it just feels like this is like the Zach Lowe moment feels like something we'll remember where we're like,

oh, remember ESPN was creeping this way and then they laid off Zach and then they went this way. And I think I see that and it feels like you do too, which is why we want to do this segment. I do. It feels important, right? Even if, again, that whole list I just gave you

of people that have walked out the door, for some reason this one hits a little bit differently. It does. And maybe it is. Maybe it's the beginning of something. Maybe we'll look back when we look at ESPN 2030 where holograms are doing SportsCenter and the AI write-ups have gone way beyond what they'rePN Radio. It seems like they've whiffed on the podcast business. But the YouTube and the TikTok and the Snapchat and you name any sort of thing that has risen

over the last 12 years, they're in there in the best possible ways. And maybe that's their business. And maybe people like us just don't see it. They obviously see some sort of vision that's different than I think what we see. Maybe we're the dinosaurs. Like I said, I feel like the old guy with you sometimes. I don't feel like the old guy right now. Defending Zach Lowe doesn't make me feel old. That makes me feel young, if anything. How about Skip Bayless, unemployed?

That's got to make you feel old did i put his name on the list of people walked out the door last 10 years there's another one yeah there's another one yeah the end of the skip bayless career is that's that now that's my first my first guy when i was a kid man let me tell you that would have been a great eight episode podcast series that only like seven people would have loved. The rise, rise, and whatever of Skip Bayless. But going into those Dallas Cowboys years, he wrote three Cowboys books in five years. I have kind of a bad rap. It was just that era where you could just get crazy inside access with the football team. Or you didn't know how true some of the access was, but that's what made it fun to read. He told me one time when the Cowboys did their first Super Bowl in the Jerry Jimmy era, he had breakfast with Jerry Jones the day of the Super Bowl.

Just think about that now at the hotel. Yeah, that happened. Are you worried about the Cowboys? Hell yes. Are you kidding? I'm actually not worried. Resigned. We're taping this before the Giants game. They might beat the Giants like 45-10 today. I'm the opposite of Cousin Sal where he's

having the flicker of hope. Keep hope alive. I'm just resigned. I mean, I'm out. I just think it's done. I know. I know. I still think there's like a nine win slip into the playoff scenario,

but that's about all I'm hopeful for. By the way, I had a nitpick. You and Fantasy did your top campaign movies on your pod. Dave is not a campaign movie. Dave's being an office movie. That's fucking cheating. There was no campaign in Dave. CC Sean fantasy. Well, that's just that. That's just a lazy and B he cheated, which is par for

the course of that guy. He's going to try to win with however he does it. Dave, where's the campaign in Dave? Did I miss it? Was it a deleted scene? He's just in office. What the fuck is he doing? Come on, fantasy. Curtis, good to see you. It's good to see you too, Bill. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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what BHP has committed to Canada. The future is clear. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. All right, we're taping this on a Thursday afternoon. We didn't want to wait for that stupid Giants-Cowboys game and do it after because that game's dumb. Who cares? Joe House is here. He has a quarterback. Jaden Daniels is in his life as a superstar in waiting.

House is so excited. If you can't see on the video, he's in a hotel room. He just rented a hotel room. Is it just massages every day. What's going on? You just need to be rubbed. I just wanted to be close to offensive greatness. I have the offensive greatness of Jordan Daniel. Uh, Jaden, Jaden Daniels in my life. I know his name. Uh, I am on the campus of James Madison university at the moment because I wanted to be close to the former Holy cross coach.

What's his name? Bob Chesney. Bob Chesney. He dropped 70 on North Carolina last week. Yeah. Why do you bet on that? We've got nothing but offensive explosions surrounding us. And you know, there were some offensive explosions in my living room, Monday light, let there

be no doubt. Yeah. What were the texts like? You haven't had a lot of oh my god, you must be so happy football techs in the last 20 years. They're all of the same kind, which is not

believing it. We had RG3, which was an incredible run in 2012 all the way up until Daniel Snyder and his cheap ways put an end to RG3's career on that field. And then we did have a minute with Kirk Cousins. Kirk Cousins did take the Washington team

to the playoffs in 2015. I went to the game against... Who can forget? Who can forget? Unbelievable. But there was a minute there. People are still talking about that. This is a thing where we got the right guy

for the right situation at the right time. It happens so rarely in Washington, so it's wonderful. I actually had dinner with two Washington fans on Tuesday night, and they were just so excited. You know, because it wasn't just a performance. There's been pieces about Daniels where the teammates, the way they're talking, you know, I love this stuff.

This is like my my jam. The teammates being like, he's him. Like when we're following Jaden, this is the guy. Like when the when the guys on the team just start raving like that to reporters, you know something good's happening. I mean, I'm getting the same chills that I had Monday night because I did spend hours with all of the breakdowns of that, the whole internet. It was the amazing convergence of events for that, and I'll stop in a second. It was a Monday night football game, the biggest stage

and the Bills It was a Monday night football game, the biggest stage. And, you know, the Browns, the Bills beat the crap out of the Jags. So nobody was watching. Everybody flipped right over to Washington. And that game was exciting because there was scoring on every goddamn possession. And so, you know, the breakdown of the tape afterwards is like when you go slow and watch this is the decisions he's making when you go slow and watch the poise he's showing in the face of of you know oncoming rushes that's the stuff that that you know put put your put your hairs up properly well one of the games we're looking at is for because we're gonna do a million dollar picks and we do we did well last week and

we'll get to that but cards washington, Washington. Cards are favored by minus three and a half in Arizona and the Cardinals are a team that I've really liked. They're one and two, but both losses were good losses. They really hung with Buffalo. They really hung with Detroit. And this is the worst possible

classic stereotypical bad spot for Washington. Coming off a late Monday night football game, everyone's super excited about how they did. So they're riding high. Congratulations all week. Short week, cross country, and they have to play a team that has good offense.

And guess what? Guess who doesn't have good defense? Washington. The stats are just awful. They're 32nd on third down. They're 30th on first down. 31st against the pass. 28th against the sacks.

If you have that kind of defense, you better score on every offensive possession. You better not punt because if you give the other team the ball, they're probably going to score. Right. And the Bengals, all they did wrong was just not score a touchdown every time they had the ball, which they almost did.

Like literally one missed field goal, right? Yeah, it was a five-point game, but really, they had one missed field goal on one of those possessions. Yeah, so no echo in this game. But McBride is questionable. But you guys were running the ball. Washington has the fifth-best run offense right now, seventh yards per play, fifth on first down.

Good stuff was happening. The defense is bad, but I'm looking at that one, and I think we both like the over, and especially if we adjust it. Are you allowed to bet against Washington a million-dollar pick? Because I'm going to offer you an Arizona money line over 43.5, and that's minus 101 on FanDuel no I I think I'm a sober realist like for me we've kind of got the validation for the whole year from the third game

of the season like all I hope for with this Washington team is to hit the over of six and a half wins that's the only thing that I really invested in. I'm fine. I bet on Tampa in week one. I don't think that there's anything wrong with trying to make money. The money's still green. What do you think about that over 43.5 with the Arizona man?

I do like that because one of my favorite bets from that game is Washington over 23.5 as its team total. So it's basically the same bet to some degree. Because they probably had to score 24 to win that. I like this Cardinals team. I was really impressed.

I said it on Sunday. I was really impressed by their two losses. I thought they hung around. I don't think their defense is very good. And they'll probably give up points. I wanted to do the minus three and a half, but the cheap touchdown potential of the Commanders. Sure. The C-words.

Yeah. The Commies. What are people calling them? The Commies? I don't know. No, nobody calls them the Commies. I don't want to say it. What do people call them?

Washington? They call them the Commanders. Jake just calls them the Redskins. He's not giving it up. They call them the Commanders. Doesn't Kevin Durant call him the Manders? The Manders? I think he does.

I think that's what KD calls him. That's pretty good. I don't mind that. So, all right, that's one I had. I'm giving you a couple that I had flagged as maybes. I'm not going to talk you out of that. The only thing with that is, you know, Arizona, you expect them to score quickly, that's the why the over um

is is the angle but i don't want to mess with the 50 and a half i like i like it down in that in the lower 43 and a half is nice 44 points is 20 24 to 20 and you're hitting it yeah next one that i was on the fence with and i think you like this more than me, but the Vikings at Green Bay, Vikings plus three. And I think the reason this is a stay away for me is I see both sides on it. But I'll just, the case for the Vikes, which I think you and I both,

that was kind of our blink test of like, ah, the Vikes. The way they played the last couple weeks. I mean, they're 3-0, but the last two weeks were just awesome, awesome wins. Last week was an absolute ass-kicking in Houston.

There's an Aaron Jones fuck you game. Yes. Yes, there is. Possibly going back to Lambeau. Like that. I'm circling. He's a bad MF-er. There's the Jordan Love coming back off of a knee injury that he's probably not 100% on, and Brian Flores just blitzing the shit out of

him. And the Minnesota stats are nuts. They're first in sacks, second in QB hits, first in QB hurries, first in tackle losses. They're also the most confusing defense when you're watching on TV. They're showing this, they're showing that. This guy's up, this guy's hopping back. And there's a lot going on,

and my concern would be, if I'm back in Green Bay, this is a lot for love to first game back and then on the and the other piece of that Green Bay beat Tennessee and Indianapolis congratulations I mean both of those were with with Malik Willis and I will also I want to countenance this possibility it wouldn't shock me if if Willis starts this game and plays the whole game. If they're doing the rope-a-dope with love, they want to make Flores try and prepare. And Flores

has the experience, right? They played Green Bay twice. It's a division game, but two different styles of quarterbacking entirely. Two different types of threats. And so just adding that onto the Minnesota plate, because I think it's a dead even coaching matchup.

Yeah, it's good. I mean, these are probably two of the best four teams in the NFC. Green Bay's banged up. I didn't like that part. So here's the flip side. Sam Darnold on the road. There's a lot of Sam Darnold excitement right now. He started 3-0 in Carolina.

This could be Sam Darnold's. Can everyone settle down of Sam Darnold excitement right now. He started 3-0 in Carolina. This could be Sam Darnold's can everyone settle down on Sam Darnold game. Love killed Minnesota last year. He killed all this butch shit. He's actually good against it if he's healthy. And I think that's why this is ultimately a stay away from me because I remember having Minnesota in that game last year with Josh Dobbs. And Love just murdered them. And I can't get that out of my head. Sometimes, sometimes the right defense is just a nice matchup for QB. So something about like, could we talk ourselves into a Vikings tease? We can, are there better

tease options? We'll get to that, but Vikings plus three, I don't know that the line feels right I ultimately might be a stay away for me how about you yeah I'm I'm on the side of the Vikings but I understand all of your hesitation and reservation and the the real determining factor for me is the Green Bay quarterback situation because they are either going to have a Jordan Love return, which is a tough situation, tough circumstance for all the reasons you just with the, or it's going to be Willis up against Brian Flores who, you know,

give him the time to, to properly prepare for it. So that's why I know I don't like, I'm just, I'm going to raise my hands and congrats to Malik Willis. But that one, I don't like because when you're watching that weird Packers offense, they had the last two weeks, one of the things,

and it did teams. They played just didn't have the personal do this, but just move everyone up and just attack the moment the ball snap, because everything is going to be kind of around the line of scrimmage. And I just, I don't like their chances against Minnesota. Cause that's what Minnesota does. and that's what they are. Another thing with the Packers is I know this is a must-win game for the Vikings, but it's really not. They could lose this and it's fine. They have some injuries. It is Green Bay.

It'd be 3-1 through 4. I know it's the Vision game, but they'll be like, I know they want to win, but this isn't like, ah. Whereas if you're the Packers and love's coming back, you kind of need this one, you know? So anyway. Okay. They'd be two and two and they would have squandered

their Minnesota home game. So not awesome. Next one. You have more Falcons Saints thoughts than I do. Falcons are now minus two and a half at home against the Saints. This feels like a sucker line to me. Oh, why? So we're just off the Saints now because they couldn't block Jalen Carter? We're out? Well, it wasn't just simply not blocking Jalen Carter. It was a blueprint

of how to slow that offense down, a blueprint of how to take the runaway. And they lost their center in that game. I mean, Jalen Carter, part of that Jalen Carter's success had to do with the injury to the Saints Pro Bowl center. The O-line is not the same. Guess who also lost two offensive linemen last week? The Falcons.

True story. I know. They're both questionable at the moment. I don't know if they've been declared formally out. I just want to give props to Atlanta because they have impressed me. I mean, we were properly skeptical at the beginning of the season with them against Pittsburgh.

We cashed that. That was a nice situation for us with Pittsburgh. Had them on the money line. And then what they showed against the Eagles and the Chiefs, like who has played that schedule in the first three weeks? And they were right. They had two one-score losses,

a one-score loss to the Steelers and a one-score loss to the Chiefs. The Steelers was a legit loss. No, for sure, for sure. Chiefs, they should have won. Well, it's pass interference in the end zone. Ball on the one, then you don't have to mess around

with all the shenanigans, silliness of figuring out fourth down plays. I just think Atlanta, having seen that Philadelphia blueprint, we haven't really seen the Atlanta defense with the new personnel in full force. I just think it's a decent matchup for them. I like Atlanta laying the points. How about this? I hate myself

if I bet either team and it's a stay away. What is the I'd hate myself either way game? I'm going to take the Saints and then Carr sucks again. I hate myself. I found a Monday night with Trevor Lawrence where it's just self-loathing. The self-loathing bet of the week. There are some self-loathing

bets on this board. I don't think this one is it, but we don't have to bet it. I just, I'm just telling you my preference. I like it. I got to say there's, and I'm with you. I'm leaning, I'm leaning to where you're leaning, but I feel like there's too many injuries on both sides. That's fine. This division makes me nervous.

Sure. How about this? Maybe you're just better off never betting on a division matchup in the NFC South. Maybe that should be added to the gambling manifesto. Just stay away. We got to be careful. Your 30 wins is in trouble. Well, there's only going to be one win out of this one.

Yes. True story. All right. So I'm leaning toward a stay away for that one. Fine. Fine. Fine. Leaning, I did say.

So here's one I really need you to talk me out of before something bad happens. Maybe you won't be able to. The Bears, who are 0-3, and are laying three points to the Rams. And I'm looking at this going, ah, kind of like the Bears. They're 32nd yards per play.

They're 28th in QB hurries. They're 32nd yards per play. They're 28th in QB hurries. They're 29th in sacks. But on the flip side, the Rams are 32nd in yards per play. They're 31st in QB hits, which is something the Chicago defense has at least shown

that. They have no cup, no Nakua. They're not top 14 basically in anything offensively but passing yards and i just wonder like there's a there's a world last week where they don't get that fake punt against the niners and the niners just beat them by 20 and we're like holy shit the ram season's over yeah and they stole it they snuck it out but now they're going to chicago they're outdoors the bears are owing three3. But the Bears... No, the Bears are 1-2. They were throwing the ball at us.

1-2, the Bears. Huh? Oh, you're right. The Bears are 1-2. Yeah. That's right. They stole that game from Tennessee. Their defense won a game.

Right, but that almost felt like a loss. I understand. I was in my head. I was counting on a loss. We had it as a loss. Their offense was awful. Yeah, you're right. They're 1-2.

But, um... So you're going to talk me out of this? Please do. The Bears are sticky poo-poo i mean if you want to go get yourself in a in a position where you have to count on coach eberflus who will be returned to his rightful place as a defensive coordinator or assistant soon enough that is right around the corner um and and and caleb will Caleb Williams behind an offensive line, they improved their skill positions there in Chicago, but not the goddamn line.

And that poor man continues to be at risk. And they can't do any of the things with their new toys on offense. They can't establish the run. That kid is running for his life on the pass. Now, here's the reason why. But did you see the stats when he wasn't under duress? He was actually really good. There were great stats.

If he just has three seconds, good stats. Get him the three seconds. Now, this is the defense that you might be able to do that, this Rams team. That's what I'm saying. The Rams, this is the defense. 31st in QB hits, 32ndnd yards per play so yeah it's a disaster of a of a secondary as well the the rams um you know the the bears do have the best unit in the game so if you want to make a bet on which one which team has the best unit it's the bears defense and the bears defense has

won a football game already they They beat the Tennessee Titans. That could be the roadmap, the blueprint. You're talking yourself into this now. I just don't want to have anything to do with it because then you have to look in the mirror and say to yourself, I laid points against Sean McVay and Matt Stafford with Floose the

douche. I mean, you can't. Who's going to do that? That's one. Floose the douche? What rhymes with Floose the douche. I mean, you can't. Who's going to do that? Like, you can't. That's one. Floose the douche? What rhymes with floose? Well, here's one we're going to argue about. Oh, actually, no. Let's do this one.

Let's get this out of the way. The Raiders are minus one and a half against the Browns. I feel like there's not a lot of chances in our life left to fade Deshaun Watson with a bad offensive line. The Cleveland offense is bottom three in yards per play, QB hits, pass yards, sacks allowed, third down conversion, and I think unofficially most times a receiver has looked just bummed out and like they wanted this season to end and they wished it was week 18. But this Raiders team was dog shit last week.

Got carved up by Andy Dalton, got called out by their coach after the game. I just don't know how that, like, this feels like a perfect matchup for the Raiders that their home. It's only one and a half. Like I, I saw I was leaning Raiders,

but I, but this violates my don't bet on two shitty teams rule. So can we just say that and move on? I detest this game. I mean, we're not betting on Gardner Minshew these nuts. We're not doing that. Minshew these nuts? No way.

Absolutely not. The Raiders can't run the ball. I'm not sure that the Antonio Pierce motivational tactic is necessarily going to work with everybody in that locker room. It feels like that locker room could be right on edge. That's a phenomenal game to stay away from. I want to know in 2024, where let's be honest, people are a little more sensitive than maybe they were 30 years ago.

Just being blasted by your coach. Is that like a good strategy when your coach has done Jack shit? Then this guy's just fucking gets the machine gun out and just everybody. We're in a moment now where you can get Devante Adams. There's like a solo camera on him for the entirety of games. We get these phenomenal shots of that poor guy sitting on the bench holding his head.

Poor, poor Devontae. Get him out of there. You didn't realize the Gardner-Minshew-Aidan-O'Connell combo might not have been a good idea? Just realizing that now? All right, we'll stay away. Two bad teams. Blah.

They do have a good defense. And, you know, if Max Crosby and Christian Wilkins go crazy, they could beat the crap out of the Browns. But that's the problem. Max Crosby's not healthy and Myles Garrett isn't healthy. I don't know who's healthy. We're doing this on a Thursday.

Let's stay with it. Great point. Great point. All right. Now it's time to really argue. Because I love the Lions this week. And I think you like the Seahawks a little bit. Hmm.

And that line is now Lions by three and a half at home against Seattle, who is three and oh, and doing really well this season. And it's a team that we've ridden a couple of times. I wish we rode them last week. That line is now, yeah, three and a half. So let me hear your case. Well, a couple things. Walker's still not 100%.

Good point. There are two best guys in the D-line, including Murphy. They're an awesome rookie. Both of those guys are hurt, and if they play, they're playing hurt, but they both have leg injuries. So that sounds great. Seattle played Denver in New England and the Skylar Thompson Miami group. And they barely beat New England.

And honestly, New England should have beaten them. And Denver hung around in Bo Nix's first game when he was absolutely terrible. He's been much better since. The Lions, I still don't feel like have played an awesome game yet. We hit on them last week.

Really? Well, just a lot of like, you see the pieces, but it's just they haven't. Right. It's a meal with a bunch of awesome things on the table, but it doesn't all make sense together.

Hook and ladder in the first half. Right. I think this is the week, it's a night game and ladder in the first half. Right. I think this is the week. It's a night game and it's the Seattle team that's playing with house money a little bit at 3-0 and you could talk yourself into they'll be able to throw the ball

and Mike McDonald, don't give him a week to play. I just think the Lions are way better. And this line, I don't understand why it's not like 6 if the Seahawks aren't healthy. On top of the fact that they can't block think the Lions are way better. And this line, I don't understand why it's not like six if the Seahawks aren't healthy. On top of the fact that they can't block, and the Lions' defensive line has been awesome. So I just, I really like the Lions.

But I think you're leaning a little Seahawks-y, right? Well, and it all boils down to, ultimately, Jared Goff, who this season, if you look at i have him right now in the in the advanced stats his his pff grade he's 29th thus far this season his epa numbers uh expected points you know per play stuff is horrendous it has him in the company of Gardner Minshew and Jacoby Brissett and Bo Nix. That's where he is thus far this season.

Counter. Maybe he's due for a good game. Well, here's the problem. They went up against a Tampa team that was missing its secondary. They went up against a Cardinals team that was supposed to be the worst defense in the NFL. And they started the season with the Rams, who, you know, was a defense in transition. And we've seen, you know, that teams can score against the Rams.

We watched what the Cardinals did. The Rams, now the Rams defense, yes, has injuries and all the rest of it. But 20 points in the regular time game against that Rams defense. 16 points against the injured Tampa defense. And then 20 points. All of the points for Detroit were in the first half. They didn't score in the second half. And that game swung on the

inappropriately called back pick six that Jared Goff threw. The refs took that away. That game was close close. I mean, Katamari threw a pick in the second half that kept the Cardinals from really making it dangerous,

but I'm just not going to do the Lions. That's all. Counter. Detroit's run 151 plays in the last two weeks, and it's actually like law of averages. They should be scoring more points. They shouldn't be doing dumb shit. There's two bad golf passes. There's a fourth down play where they ran a stupid play.

Like they've kind of been dominating these games. I'm the counter to the counter on the Lions. No rag now. Rag now is out. You're all right. No. Yeah. Let's make this our argue game.

We didn't have an argue game last week. But when we bet on the argue game well I was going to throw this at you Detroit first half Detroit game parlay plus 100 okay alright so that I'm willing to do

that takes care of like the cheap touchdown from the Seahawks at the end that they could just take the lead early Seahawks at the end. They could just take the lead early. Seahawks will be down 10. They'll all of a sudden lock it for 68 yards or DK and then it'll be lines up by

three sweating it out, but we'll have first half in the game and we're ready to go. They're at home. They should take a lead in the first half against fucking Seahawks. Your point is right. This is an enormous step up for Seattle's defense after they got to play against Bo Nix and Jacoby Brissett

and Skyler Thompson, right? There's real offensive weapons on this Lions team. Bo Nix has been pretty good. He had a great game against Tampa. We're about to talk about him right now because he's getting too many points against the Jets. The Jets are seven and a half point favorites at home against the Broncos. And I don't really understand it

because Denver's defense has been pretty good. And I really feel like they put together a good game and a half. I said this last week on Million Dollar Picks. We were talking about how Denver really looked good against Pittsburgh in the second half of that game. And then last week, they just played great. They beat up Tampa. We probably should have taken the underdog money line on that because I think both of us like Denver. You like Denver, you like the Giants, both of those hit. So seven and a half just seems high because you can run on the Jets. I think you move the ball on the Jets in general. And even if this game's in double figures, I feel like they can get a cheap touchdown late.

I also like they can throw Sertan on Garrett Wilson. Yep. That's the case for sure. And we get Sean Payton against big shot Bob Salah. The only reason this, so the look ahead was seven and a half. So then the numbers is consistent with what the look ahead is and nothing's sort of changed over the course of the season the problem is the situation for denver right second straight road game rookie quarterback the jets have their second consecutive home game

they have those they played three games in 11 days they got that thursday night game they kicked us now they got all the rest that they need in their home preparing for a rookie quarterback. We're going to see whether or not this Jets defense really can... They did perfectly fine against the one dimensional

Patriots with those injuries. We couldn't block Thursday night. The Pats go down by 10. They can't beat anybody and it was just one of those games no lessons learned from that one that's fine I mean I agree with you 7.5

is crazy and also like this is the season hello 5.5 points or more the underdog now is 14 and 2 the underdog is 1 10 of those games outright, 10 and six. The dogs are in those circumstances.

So anytime you see anything over five and a half, it's like better be careful because it's the way the season's been. It's a fun pick too. It's a fun one to root for. You have the cheap touchdown at the end potentially, but I think Bo Nix I thought he was really good last week

in that Tampa game and I know Tampa's secondary is a disaster and I get it it's going to be fun part of the thing that you're hearing out of New York is that Hackett and Rodgers really want to stick it to Peyton they really want to stick it to Sean this is because they didn't get the chance last year

when they played and so they're going to try and run it up. But I like... Sean Payton is kind of the smartest guy in the room. He would have put all those guys together. It's kind of fun. I don't want to make a big investment in it because I could see a scenario under which the Jets...

But we could also stay away. That would be my inclination. But I like where you're going. The thing I don't like about it from a Denver side is, like, if I'm going to beat the Jets, I'm going to pound the run, right? And I'm just going to try to keep the ball and keep the ball away from Rodgers.

But the Broncos haven't really run the ball that well. No. And as anyone knows, so has Javante Williams on their fantasy team. But, alright, so maybe I'll, I won't put that in bold, but I'm going to include that on the list. So then, Eagles-Bucks

where, you know, sadly the Hurricanes hitting, as we're taping this, but we just learned over the years, like, those just become automatic stay-aways, those games. I actually like that matchup for the Eagles, but we don't even know if they're going to be playing that game. And I hope everybody's safe there. But I think that's a cross-off for us, right?

Yeah, let's stay away from it. There was injuries on both sides, too. They create all kinds of uncertainty. Stay away. All right, so the big ones. So really, the only ones we have so far cards, money line with the over 43 and a half Detroit first half game plus 100. I'm going to take out the Broncos and then I'm going to throw you my favorite bet in one second,

but we're going to take a break. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum.

When your celebration of life is prepaid in advance, it becomes a gift from you to your family later because no one should have to plan for a loss while they're experiencing one. Paying in advance protects your loved ones and gives you the peace of mind you deserve. Let us help you plan every detail with professionalism and compassion. We are your local Dignity Memorial provider. Find us at DignityMemorial.ca. All right, coming back, my favorite bet of the week, and I hope you agree, is the Steelers in Indianapolis, minus one and a half. They've been incredibly good to us on million-dollar picks

week after week after week. Buckner's out for the Colts. There's going to be a lot of Pittsburgh fans there. Indy's defense is just a flat-out atrocity. They're 31st against the run, 28th on third down, 32nd on first downs allowed. 26 on yards per play. Their offense isn't

much more awesome either. 27th on first down. 28th turnover. 24th pass. But most important, throw the stats out. Anthony Richardson's all over the place. And he's going against the best defense in the league, Pittsburgh. First in red zone efficiency.

First and third downs allowed. First and first down. Second against the run. Third in yards per play. This is seventh in QB hits. This is the best defense in the league. They're first in points. I mistakenly said 16 on Sunday night. It's 26 points allowed this year. I just think the

defense wins the game single-handedly. I was trying to figure out ways to get fucked on this. And it's really just Richardson doing those two long 55-yard bombs where it's like they have eight first downs, but somehow have two touchdowns. So I'm just acknowledging that. But I think this is the game where they let fields cook a little bit, let them throw in this crap Colts defense. I have no idea how the Colts won last week. I don't think they're good. And I think the Steelers are really good. They kind of need this game. They need to go like 7-1 in these first

eight. I can't believe the line's only 1.5. I don't get it. So here are the cautions that I'll offer. In the first place, the Colts have an incredible offensive line thus far this season. They're first in the NFL in both pass and run blocking according to PFF.

Another thing, the Steelers' defense, yes, awesome, but Kirk Cousins in his first game off of the Achilles, completely immobile. Bo Nix in his second career start

in the National Football League. Half of Justin Herbert, full, I mean... Hey, they knocked his ass out. Give them credit for that. They sent him to the sideline. He was already, you know, immobile, and yes, they completed the job. The other sort of

aspect of caution is just historically Mike Tomlin is much better in the dog spot as opposed to a favorite. He's the only 45% as a road favorite in his career against the spread, 33, 40, and two. The reason that I think I'm inclined to join you on the Steelers is because I don't think that we've really seen Justin Fields yet.

I've long been in the camp of Fields. I had Fields on my fantasy team last year, and I will tell you, in our Keeper League, I gave serious thought to keeping him for $1 or whatever it is, plus the escalator, for this upcoming season, even though Russell Wilson had been declared the starter, because the Fields upside,

we haven't really scratched the surface. They really haven't done any design runs for him. And this could be the week, the pathway for the Colt to beat Pittsburgh is to try and give Pittsburgh a dose of its own medicine. Kind of like what we expected last week out of the charges, which is just try and run the ball, try and squeeze the life out of the game,

try and play a game. That's only two hours and 45 minutes because we're just running, running, running. Jonathan Taylor left, Jonathan Taylor right. But Fields, to me, is the wild card. And at one and a half points, I mean, here's the thing that I also am willing to count. Steichen's good.

Steichen's good, but he also has some of the dumbest big plays of the game calls of anyone. Well, they trust Richardson. That's the problem they have is they trust Anthony Richardson. This is a bad defense for him to play in his fourth start of the season and his sixth start ever.

In his whole career. I really believe in the Steelers team. I think they're good. The question for me is, you know, if they, could this be the game where fields just sucks? Like he sucked a bunch of times against the bears.

Sure. But against this Colts defense, why would this be the game that he falls apart? I love this version of the Steelers where it's apparent that they are treating every one of these early season games, early games on the schedule as absolute must wins. They have to get all these wins before they get to the portion of the schedule where they have all those division games and other super talented teams at the back half of their schedule. So here's the other thing. The pedal is down. Browns, the Browns are going to suck.

The Bengals are 0-3. The Ravens are playing the Bills and could be 1-3 after Sunday. And the Steelers could be 4-0. They could have a three-game lead in the AFC North. So I don't know. They've been really good to us, and I'm still in on them. Me too. Okay.

Two more. Ravens bills. Okay. See, unfortunately I heard East coast bias today and I know where you're leaning on this, but I think we're seeing it the same way. Look, Ravens minus two and a half against the bills.

Hmm. Why is that line lower? Why is that line of pick them? The Josh Allen's like the, just looks like he's the best player in the league. The Bills look great. They're going to be able to throw on the Ravens. They're getting a pass rush this year,

which none of us expected. They figured out some sort of secondary thing. There's some Ewing theory with Stefan Diggs, even though they never won a title with him. The tease is just so tantalizing here. This feels like a one score game to me, and I'm not positive who's going to win. There's that. If it's Bills plus up all the way to plus eight and a half, Ravens could be in double digits. Well, we know what happens when they go up double digits to put the game on a platter for the other team. The Bills might be able to win and it allows us to tease with the next game we're going to talk about,

but Bills plus eight and a half. Does that make your nipples hard? I absolutely love it. It's not Jaden Daniels zipper zone quite, but it's way up there. I absolutely adore the Bills as a teaser leg this week. I think the back door is extremely open with this Ravens team.

It's a wide open back door situation. I'll just leave it at that. I could take this much deeper, but I won't do it. You haven't had nearly enough drinks. I have not. Baltimore's defense, 28th and first downs,

32nd and pass. It's like all in the last, it's all in the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter. Yeah, because it's all when the, when the other team realizes like, why the fuck aren't we just passing every down? They can't stop anything.

And something about Josh this year, and shout out to the cuz, that was his Super Bowl pick. I thought it was, I really battled on them back and forth and I ended up giving that AFC spot to the Jets because I really wanted to work the Jaguars into the playoffs. And I gave the Jaguars the Buffalo playoff spot. And I think I did pretty well with the future so far, but that was, I think by far my biggest mistake. There was a case for the bills. There was a case against the bills and the case against them was they have all this dead cap weight. You know, Milano got hurt. Now Bernard got hurt during the season. Um, but none of it seems to matter because Alan's been that good and maybe he's just going to be this good the whole year, right?

Well, this is the game where it might matter, right? I think we finally are going to see in Baltimore a team that's going to try and take advantage of the injuries, the linebacking core, Tyron Johnson's compromise. Yeah, just run the ball down their throats. Yes, they're going to scheme that way for sure. I've been really impressed by Buffalo's pass rush and just their front in general. Every game it's

jumped out there. Von Miller, he's alive. Cause two of you, you, the instinct is to throw away week two cause two got hurt.

But by the time two got hurt, that game was over. Like they dominated them for two hours. So yeah, you know, it's probably the

second best team. They're kind of the team that I thought Houston was going to be, to be honest. All right, so we'll put them in a teaser leg. Love it. And the Ravens hooked us up last week. No disrespect to them. Right.

Thank you. Yeah, and they can win. And then they'll be 2-2 in the AFC North. Well, the other teaser leg, so what's that going to be? Well, I have an idea. How about the fucking Chiefs minus seven in L.A. against the Chargers and the Chargers? We've ridden a couple of times.

Yes, I have a bunch of future bets on them. But this is just this is a throwaway game. They Herbert's probably not playing. I think it'd be crazy to play him. They're missing their two best tackles, Joe Alton and Slater. Both those guys are out. James got suspended for their secondary, and then Bosa, like, go figure, he got hurt again.

So they're missing not only five starters, but five of their best eight players, five of their best seven players. And they're in a bye next week. And they've kind of overachieved anyway, right? They're two-1. And they'll look at this and go, you know what?

Let's just get to the bye. We were probably not beating the Chiefs anyway, 2-2. This is just a nightmare matchup. But I don't see a scenario where they hang. Is Taylor Heineke? You rooted for Taylor Heineke. He's going to be running around LA and making plays and doing stuff.

Get the fuck out of here. Yeah, no chance. He's six yards behind the line of scrimmage in a cloud of dust. That's the Taylor Heineke experience. The only thing that I'll sort of urge as a caution is the lines moved a point in the direction away from the Chiefs.

The Chiefs were minus eight at one point. I'm trying to figure out what, what has happened to pull this down to seven. I have your answer. I think people have been looking at the chiefs defense and thinking it's a little house of cards ish that there's a lot of when they play straight up defense, they're actually like a bottom eight defense when they're blitzing and doing

stuff and basically using tricks to get pressure. They're better. So it's a lot of like trick stuff with them. I just don't think they're going to need a lot of tricks with the chargers. The chargers were having trouble moving the ball. Um, last week, you know,

with, with, when all the, when the tackles were playing. Yeah. Um, do you take out their run game and now you're making Heineke throw to like these subpar receivers.

Yeah, I guess maybe some of it too is the Chiefs run defense hasn't been awesome. But I mean, I would think that if you were going to be skeptical of the Chiefs, it would be more on the offensive side of the ball. Totally. But then the other piece is the Chiefs are 3-0 and they're three plays away from being 0-3

right so maybe people look at that and it's like man that line's pretty high Harbaugh let's grab all those points but Chiefs historically haven't covered those big numbers but look we are in Exotica we are going to do a tease we don't need all the points just grab

it 7 down to 1 that's living life the right way and push Buffalo up to eight and a half against Baltimore in a one score game. Baltimore doesn't blow anybody out. They're definitely not blowing out the bills. I'm going to knock on wood right now. I don't want to talk it into existence,

but that's how we do it, BS. Well, here's the thing. We missed on the tees last week. We didn't do one last week, but we lost the first two weeks and we have not hit a tease yet. And now because of these records of the five and a half and up favorites,

like all the teases have been destroyed this season. They have been. It's going to be an overcorrection where now everyone's afraid to do the tease. It's like, come on. It's going to be the Chiefs against Easton Stick or Taylor Heineke. They just have to win by one point.

And the Bills to be in a one score game against the Ravens. Plus, it's your birthday. We're not going to lose it. It's your birthday week. Did Dave Chang make you some chowder for your birthday? No, he didn't. He better save that for when I come

out. We can celebrate it together. I want some Chang chowder. You know what happened to me? I might have to have my dad on to talk about this. And this what happened to me? I, I might have to have my dad on to talk about this. And this already happened to you. I am a now out of the 18 to 54 TV demo. You know, when they talk about the coveted advertisers demo of 18 to 54,

right? I'm out. So what, what happened? Did you start watching the Chicago NBC shows? What happened to you when you hit 55? NCIS Indianapolis. You were like,

oh, Chicago Fire and then a brand new Chicago PD. Is that going to happen to me? There's law and order still on us, you know. I'll be like, oh, homicides on Peacock. Bang on season seven,

a homicide. What's going to happen to me? Am I still going to like White Lotus? Am I too old for White Lotus now? Is LL Cool J still doing that investigative show? That's the one. Like there's that Fox surfing show.

Am I not in the demo for that now? That new surfing show they have? I think that's awesome. Those waves are incredible. I could watch that for hours. I'm mesmerized by big waves. Does that make us the wrong demo? These TV people are so stupid.

We all have nice TVs now. To have a show with the ocean in HD where there's big waves. Yeah, giant waves. I'll sit and watch that. What took so long? What are these people doing? It used to be called Baywatch.

So one more thing. Fando is having... Yeah, it used to be called Baywatch, which was an important show of our college days. Important, important. Some would say vital. So FanDuel has for a featured bet this week, an anytime TD score bet that if you hit,

you get a 50% profit boost. So we're just going to add that to our bets. Got to plow into that marvin harrison td plus 100 is that what we want to do i kind of love it i mean all you need to do is look at how has the opposing team's best receiver done against the washington secondary week by week and it looks pretty effing good jamar chase with 115 yards and two touchdowns. Malik Nabors had an incredible game. Both Godwin and Evans had great games against.

I mean, you just have to, you know, at some point you have to accept the free money. All right. Is it time? It's million dollar picks time. So we're going with four bets this week and then then the little harrison thing okay we built up a nice nest egg with the with the winnings from last week do you want to scale back at all and do like less than 200k a bet or you want to keep it at the 200k bet this does not to me feel like a big 200k bet kind of week i i mean i think we're still learning to 150 should we yeah there's a

lot of injuries out there too all right we. We'll scale back a little bit. The million dollar picks for week four. Last week we won $380,000 and it would have been way more except the Jaguars decided to pull our pants down. I hate the Jaguars. Never again. Notice we didn't even talk about them when we did our million dollar pick. I was like,

Oh, the Jaguars seven against Houston. No, oh, the Jaguars. Seven against Houston. No. Fuck you, Jaguars. We're done. We're done with you. Go to your room. Don't come out. You're grounded. We hate you. We're up for the season. $504,000 through three weeks.

That's pretty good. Fake money. Yeah, not bad. The million dollar picks for week four. The Steelers, who have been incredible. They've been our MVPs of million-dollar picks. They have, undoubtedly. Even you're in now. They're laying minus one and a half in Indianapolis

to Anthony Richardson, who is the trick-or-treat quarterback, maybe of our generation. Right now, it's more trick-or-treat. It's a lot of tricks and occasionally some treats, and we are going into this fully well-knowing. There might be one play, maybe two, where he just goes back and he throws it 60 yards

and it's in perfect stride. We're betting on all the other plays, the plays you don't see on the red zone, the passes that sail over people's heads. The leading the league in interceptions. Yeah, we're betting on the turnovers and on an awesome, awesome, awesome Steelers D. And House, you're a little bullish on the fields.

I do think he might get moved. Give him a little more to fields each week. Maybe so. Yeah, I'm stacking it up. All right, so we're going to put, we're lowering a little this week just because it's week four perennially. 150,000 on the Steelers minus one and a half. That's our first one. Next one is a little parlay action. The Cardinals playing your Washington team

and the over, which is over, it's like 49 and a half or 50, but we're going to bring that over down to 43 and a half in the cards money line, and we're going to parlay that, and it's minus 101 on FanDuel. Fine.

Fine. And we're jumping on that. Just the cards need to win by one point, and we need 44 points or more total, and these two offenses with no defense

on either side. Let's go. That's right. I'm not, I mean, I don't even feel disloyal going against Washington. You set it up perfectly, you know,

coming off the, the, you're not winning the Superbowl this year. You just want an awesome Jaden Daniels year and don't get hurt. This is a don't get hurt. Jaden Daniels. Keep giving us joy. The Superbowl was winning in Cincinnati in the week three on Monday Night Football in front of a national audience.

We've done it. We've done it. Right. With Troy Aikman, super impressed with the throw in the corner as he just gets annihilated to McLaurin. Yeah. Okay. So we're putting $150K on that. And then because Fando has this little special, the 50% profit boost for any sort

of touchdown score. We're going to go Marvin Harrison anytime touchdown, which is plus 100, and we're just going to throw 25K on that for shits and giggles. Yeah, get the profit boost.

Yeah, we like you, Marvin. Next one, Detroit at home on a Monday night against the Seattle team. Yeah, we like you, Marvin. All right, next one. Detroit at home on a Monday night against the Seattle team that can't block anyone that has defensive line issues that might not have Kenneth Walker. And Detroit has not really played

a good start to finish game. I think it's going to be this week. Detroit first half. Detroit game parlay. I talked you into this. You did. Even money. Plus 100 on FanDuel.

Fine, fine, fine. 150K on that. Just take a lead this. Even money, plus 100 on FanDuel. Fine. Fine. Fine. 150K on that. Just take a lead in the first half, Detroit, and take care of business. And you can fart around, and Goff can throw his one stupid pick, and Ben Johnson can have his one terrible fourth down play that Jameer gives is running sideways, doing a flip

lateral pass, and gets... You can do all that, but just win the game and take a lead in the first half. So that's our third bet. And then the last but not least, we're going back. We're doing a tease.

We're not listening to Raheem and everybody else who hates teases, but No, Raheem likes teases as long as we do it properly. It's a special week because we have this gift of the Chiefs minus seven in LA with

five of the best seven chargers out including both of their tackles their safety who runs their secondary their best sack guy and their quarterback who's the star of their team none of them are playing we just need the Chiefs to win by one we're taking that down for minus seven minus one by the way

there's probably gonna be 45,000 Chiefs fans at that game just gonna going to mention that. We like the Chargers. Not the week. They have a bye week next week. Right. Whatever. We don't care.

We'll be two and two heading the bye week. Everyone will get healthy. We'll be fine. Chiefs minus one. Bills up to plus eight and a half in Baltimore. One score game. One score game. I have to say, who's going to win that game? One score game. Do you have to say who's going to win that game?

I might be making the case on the Ringer pregame show Sunday morning for the Buffalo Moneyline. I kind of like the bill on the Moneyline

against Baltimore. That's what's great about that line is I actually think it should probably be a pick-em or maybe even Bills minus one or somewhere in there. But I think it's a one score game. So we're taking bills plus eight and a half. And that is our tease. So four bets this week plus a little Harrison. We're not, it doesn't add up to million dollar picks. It doesn't always have to. Sometimes we have to be smart. Scaling it back a tiny bit, 150,000 on the four bets plus the little Harrison bet. And those are the million dollar picks

for week four. And Joe House has a quarterback that we're kind of betting on in this game because we have the over in that game. So you can still root for him to do stuff and not feel bad about it. Believe me, I will. House, great to see you.

Thanks, BS. Happy birthday, buddy. All right, I will. House, great to see you. Thanks, BS. Happy birthday, buddy. Alright, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Brian Curtis and Joe House and especially Logan Murdoch. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing as well. And I will see

you on Sunday with Cousin Sal. We're doing it live, remember. You can go to my YouTube channel and watch us do the podcast live on the Bill Simmons channel. Don't forget, Mr. McMahon on Netflix. It is available to be consumed, all six episodes.

Find some time over the weekend. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with I don't have to. dot org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling, help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 seven support Massachusetts or call 1-877-8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York.