The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Ayton-Oop, Round 3 Predictions, and NBA Lottery Reactions With Joe House, Kevin O’Connor, J. Kyle Mann, and Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: June 23, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss the Suns’ Game 2 victory over the Clippers, Deandre Ayton's game-saving alley-oop, a slew of reviews that dragged out the end of the game, hope for the Clippers, and more (3:00) before sharing some NBA gambling odds and discussing Jon Rahm’s U.S. Open victory (21:30). Then Bill is joined by Kevin O’Connor, Wosny Lambre, and J. Kyle Mann to discuss the 2021 NBA draft lottery in real time, as well as potential trades, the Hawks-Bucks series, and more (44:45) Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House, Kevin O'Connor, Wosny Lambre, and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if the Len Bias story, hosted by Jordan Ritter-Khan, is The Ringer's latest narrative podcast? You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Len Bias. 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story.

I'm Jordan Ritter Kahn. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good.

I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff. It's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus look look out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit fanduel.com slash BS to download America's number one sportsbook.

The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here.

You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller

Time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did Stripes, 40th anniversary. Me brian koppelman breaking down a bill murray classic trying to explain why this was one of the most iconic comedies of the 80s still kind of holds up too gotta be honest coming up joe house and i are going to break down an absolutely bizarre compelling sons clippers game too we're talking a little john rom and uh a little basketball too. And then the Ringer Lottery show that we did,

the live show, me, Kevin O'Connor, Big Waz, Kyle Mann. We were just reacting as it was going. It was an unusually crazy lottery

with all the subplots of teams that might lose picks, could keep their picks, all that stuff. So, that is going to run after me in-house.

First, our friends from ProJet. All right, Joe House is here. It is almost 9.15 here, Pacific time on the West Coast. House stayed up past midnight on the East Coast. House, I apologize. Usually when we were growing up, NBA playoff games were like two hours, 20 minutes, two hours, 30 minutes. This one was over three hours.

There was a ref review every five seconds, but it ended two hours, 30 minutes. This one was over three hours. There was a ref review every five seconds, but it ended up with an amazing ending. The Suns, 0.8 seconds left on the clock. Alley-oop to DeAndre Ayton as everybody thinks, wait, was that goaltending? And it's like, no, you can't have goaltending. It's not a shot. It's a live ball. So the Suns end up winning. And I think we call it the, it's either the D'Alioup or the 8'Noup. What do you like more? I like D'Alioup. That's better.

D'Alioup. D'Alioup. The Suns and Clippers, they played in 2006. It's the closest the Clippers have ever really come to making the finals because that season was wide open. And there was this famous Daniel Ewing game where game four, they're about to take a 3-1 lead over the Suns. They're down three.

The Suns are down three. Timeout. Dunleavy brings in Daniel Ewing, who stands a little... Yeah, my old buddy, Mike Dunleavy. And he's too far away from Raja Bell, now belonging to the ringer. What? And Raja makes the three, goes into overtime. Suns win. This felt equally devastating. I felt like the Clips had to steal one of these two with no Chris Paul,

no Kawhi either. But to now go down 0-2, Chris Paul is eventually coming back. This was a devastating Clippers loss. I don't think it was devastating necessarily because this Clippers team in the configuration that they have, I think they have kind of the resiliency to come back from a 2-0 down. We keep seeing this out of Ty Lue. They're playing a long game. This series feels to me like a seven game series. And all of the mixing and matching with lineups to address on the

fly, not having Kawhi. I think there's a kind of an experiment going on here. I'm not prepared to make any declarations about the ultimate outcome of this. The Clippers had 10 ways to win this game. The Suns had 10 ways to win this game.

This was a classic game, too, between two deep teams. It was a rock fight. The role players took over in the fourth quarter. We got tons of Patrick Beverly. We got tons of Luke Kennard. We got who from the Suns was doing stuff right at the end that I'm forgetting. I mean, Cameron Payne had 29 points in the game. Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne, Payne.

I'll say this. I agree with you. The Clips have been down 0-2 every round now. I'm not counting them out. I think why this was devastating was this game was on the platter for your up on, you get fouled. Paul George is at the line with a chance to put a three misses both.

And now the sons could say, well, we were down one and Booker dribbled the ball out of bounds. We did a review and by one, one hundreds of a split second in super slow-mo, it was clear that even though Beverly poked the ball out, it kind of went off Booker sand. I hated that call. We can talk about it later. But the quips, you just feel like you have two free throws to basically clinch the game. You don't get them. You get a stop

on the inbound pass and Bridges misses the three from the corner, wide open set play. And then you don't get the rebound. And then on top of everything else, it's clear. The only play they have a chance to run there is eight now. You, you bring cousins in cousins. Isn't even positioned properly between the inbounder and the alley. And the basket. I couldn't agree more free look right at the rim.

And then it's like one pick. Of course that was going to be the play. The, the, there is a whole and i really don't care to do this because i'd like the last half hour of my life back that game should have been over at 11 30 at night eastern yeah we didn't need the extra 35 minutes and the the parade of horribles that occurred in that last two minutes of actual basketball time uh is too numerous i don't want to relive the sequence, but I, the observation you made just now about cousins being in the wrong spot about the fact that the Clippers again,

asked for a review of the out of bounds plate, which have had the effect of giving the sons, the ability to go diagram the eight, eight tents left. They didn't have to do that, but that's the clip. We were successful with it one time. Let's get another review and give the Suns another free timeout. And on top of that, how can Zubach not be prepared for the back screen?

How could he not be prepared for Aiton going to the basket? How is it possible he got back screen? And once again, like with the Daniel Ewing play, they bring in the ice cold DeMarcus Cousins to defend the inbounds pass, and he's not in the right spot. Not in the right spot. Hey, DeMarcus, you have to be between

the inbounder and the basket so they can't throw an alley-oop. That's why you're in there. And so the inbounder doesn't have the perfect look at the basket. At least put your big body and your big arms in front of his eyes, for Christ's sakes. But the whole thing was infuriating.

And Zubac gets blindsided by the back pick. This was a really chippy game. I loved it. I loved it, too. It reminded me when we were in college, when there was those weird 89-90, when there were all these weird playoff matchups all of a sudden, but all the games were great.

You'd have like Phoenix, Portland and Portland, San Antonio and these matchups were like, wow, this is a playoff series and they were always awesome. I mean, it was a Pat Bev kind of game, right? I mean, Pat Bev was out there putting his face into places and flopping

and you know, we got the full Pat Beverly experience. He got shoved by Devin Booker after the 8 Nally Oop. It seemed like all chaos broke and Booker, we got the full Pat Beverly experience. He got shoved by Devin Booker after the 8-0. It seemed like all chaos broke. And Booker, they were trash talking the whole game. And Booker just ended up shoving him away. But it was super chippy. And I got to say, like, I'm with you.

I don't think this series is over. But I was really surprised the Clippers lost. You and I live bet the Clippers in the third quarter. It was like almost three to one. Maybe we're partially to blame for it, but it just felt like the kind of game that they would steal all year. And I think when I look at this Clipper team, you mentioned about the different lineups and stuff.

There's a Isaiah's Piston Z kind of feel to the team. I'm not talking from a talent standpoint, but they go nine, 10 deep and you kind of from series to series, different guys evolve into crunch time people. Like today, we had Beverly, Canard and Zubats are all

playing in crunch time. And in the previous series, Canard basically didn't play at all until game five, game six. And Zubats wasn't out there ever. But in this series, it's a malleable lineup. Paul George is really the only constant in Kawhi, but Kawhi's been out, but it's basically, we have Paul George. We have no idea who the other four people are going to be game to game,

series to series. And Lou has a really good feel for the roster. Like he did it again today. He had the right guys out there. They came back, took the lead. They should have won. I totally agree with that. I have a question for you. I want to see if you agree with this. For some reason, even though this game, the shooting was not outstanding,

it had a rock fight feel. It had a gritty feel. I, I just, I don't know my basketball eyes. So prefer seeing this Western conference, these games than the Eastern Conference. The Eastern Conference games have been driving me insane. The Bucks and the Nets and the Hawks and the Sixers, there's so many dumb mistakes. There's so many missed opportunities.

These games, this feels more like, I feel like there's strategy i feel like you know guys are getting an opportunity and making the most of the opportunity and i don't know why the aesthetics of this appealed you know if you look at the numbers it's not like anybody had a great shooting night and it's not like you know we are missing uh chris paul and and kawaii leonard two first ballot hall of famers and yet for reason, I prefer to watch this game than anything I've seen out of the Eastern Conference in the last five games. One of the things I like, we were always so worried about

basketball was becoming this uniform way to play, right? Where it was just like, all right, everybody just shoots threes and you go a little hero ball at the end and we don't have the variety that like we grew up with i think one of the reasons i like these two teams is they can they can go small they could it's a two dirk digger teams right they can fuck fast they can fuck slow i can do it both ways i can do it both ways jack should i use the spanish accent i can do it both ways. Jack, should I use the Spanish accent? I can do it both ways, Jack. How about the return of the mid-range? Yeah.

There's a mid-range game on both sides of the ball. I think that's what we both like. There's shot making. They were talking, and Booker who was bad today. Booker was 5 for 16. That's what I'm saying. The Suns in general were 6 for 26 from 3. I know.

But, but they always, you hear like with Booker, like he gets to that spot. He doesn't, you know, it, they,

there's guys on both teams who are like, I'm going to get to that spot and shoot a 16 footer. And you go in the East coast, the Eastern conference, just not as many of those guys. He got to a spot and made his shot with whatever it was that, you know, 10 seconds left for 27 seconds. There you

go. There was, that's what it was. I couldn't remember, but right. Of course. I mean, and that's your same thing, a pure basketball play in the exact same thing for, for Paul George. Although we got to call him. I got to give shouts to cousin Sal playoff. P you you're at the free throw line with a chance to go free. You got to go. You got to make the free

throws. I mean, you can't be playoff P and miss two free throws. I mean, you can't be playoff P and miss two free throws. I'm going to defend playoff P because I thought he was awesome in the Utah series. I think he's carrying a huge, huge load in these games. He played 41 minutes again tonight.

And by the way, I meant to say this on Sunday's pod. They got fucked with that game one on Sunday. They had to play the Friday night game. There was an open Monday night last night. They had no games. Like, guess what?

You could have played the game seven. Just have the game seven Sunday night. Let that be the only game. Yeah. And then, or play and then play. And by the way, Sixers on Monday night,

the three o'clock game was on father's day up against the U S open. I don't need to see game one of son's Clippers up against the U.S. Open. I got to watch John Rahm. I mean, can you imagine if they had done that to the Lakers and the Lakers had won this grueling game six on a Friday night and had to play 36 hours later in Phoenix? LeBron, the pity party that would have happened from LeBron. The leagues crack down on us again. It's like,

oh, it's the Clippers. Let's just completely fuck them over. It was a real disadvantage. It was basically, you're in a no-win situation that game, which I think why they experimented. But tonight was the game they had to steal. And they didn't steal it. And they had it. It was sitting there

really from a Phoenix standpoint. Aiton had another great game, but I just think that might be who he is. He's shooting 60% for the entire playoffs. The one that is ridiculous is Cameron Payne goes 12 for 24, 29 points, nine assists. And it's basically like doing as well as Chris Paul would have done. Well, and we had, you know, on the other side in the previous series, Terrence Mann, we had the Terrence Mann game. I mean, this is what we're getting out of this Eastern Conference after Red Mamba himself brought home game seven for Atlanta Sunday night. This is a very interesting playoffs. We're getting these role players. We're getting opportunities to step up in like the biggest moments and then and then really following through, and we're seeing players with more notoriety that haven't been in giant playoff situations before

kind of coming up with egg on their face. It's a really interesting playoffs in that respect. I wish we didn't have across the board all of the injuries, but we're getting some litmus test moments here. We got a little more information about Aaron Gordon, I would say. It was interesting to see Drew holiday shoot five for 23 uh and look terrified most of those series yeah yes that's right uh but he left out but don't don't forget mr uh simmons on philly well i mean what's what's left to say he basically should not have played any fourth quarter and in fact he didn't play any fourth quarter.

He ran around. He was a live body running around. You know what's shocking about this box score? Zubach played 34 minutes. So you think about last series. Basically, they went small against Gobert. They didn't care. They knew he wasn't going to hurt them.

They're afraid enough against Aiton that they felt like they had to play Zubats most of the game. And Aiton still was 12 for 15, 14 rebounds and was the best player in the game. We should talk about Aiton really quickly because even though we've talked about him before on the pod, it was a defensible pick over Luka. I never would have done it, but I understood it because it's like if this guy can turn into a semi- a semi franchise center, that could be a 2010 guy who can protect the rim in the playoffs. That's a really nice piece to have next to Booker. He's been better than I thought. He's incredibly likable. Even in the, I watched the interview right after the game and he's just like,

my coaches just told me what to do. All credit goes to them. It was a great pass by Jay. Every single word I've ever heard out of his mouth is like great teammate, super supportive, no ego at all, just wants to like help out. I think he really appreciates the Chris Paul thing. I think he loves playing with Booker. And he's like the ideal third guy that you would want on a team that has those two guards.

And I'm just stunned because I didn't see this coming four months ago. It just seemed like he was going to be not the Achilles heel, but kind of the wild card for them. It's like, do you trust him? Is he going to be in the right places in a playoff game? Is he going to fumble a perfect pass or any of that stuff? I think he's been lights out. I'm really impressed.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I'll give credit to both Aiden because there's definitely like a work ethic to that dude. He's definitely gotten better every year. He, there was, there was a slow start for him and he had some missteps, uh, early on,

but like, you know, as he's grown, as the team has grown, as the franchise has grown, it is kind of a perfect confluence of events to put him in the very best position he could be in, Devin Booker in the very best position he could be in,

Chris Paul, ironically, in the very best position he could be in, and that chemistry really works, and it's really having a nice cumulative effect on the overall, and they're deep. We keep talking about him. Carol Bridges is good. He's a good two-way player. And he wasn't good tonight,

but he made a huge three in the last two minutes. And the one that he took at the end of the game. I thought it was going in. It was online. It was online. Looked good to me. Payne is good. We made fun of Cam Johnson when he got picked.

Cam Johnson's good. Cam Johnson has a high basketball IQ. I am impressed by the Suns team. You've been on them for, we've been talking about it for like, you know, three months. You love the Suns team. I know, but I was a coward. I didn't pick them against the Lakers. I could have, I

went on the Sports Cards podcast and predicted, I was like, buy Trey Young cards. They have a real chance to make the Eastern Finals and somehow didn't even really pick them to make the Eastern finals. And somehow didn't even really pick them to beat the Knicks. And then this Suns team, I was on the whole season and then I just got scared off.

I think one of the things you saw tonight, they have a way of making the other team kind of come to their pace. You know, those Clips Jazz games are wide open. That's what the Clips want. They want to shoot threes. They want chaos. They want to scramble.

And the Jazz, even with Cameron Payne, even without Chris Paul, they know who they are. They want to slow it down a tiny bit. They want it to be a half-court game. And they eventually pull you into that house. I got to give you this. We have some live odds on FanDuel Sportsbook.

Let's get on them. Clippers in six is now 20 to one. Clippers in seven is now 11 to one. Oh, I'm going to bet that. I'm 100%. Get on that. Call somebody for me. In Colorado, in Indiana, in West Virginia.

Wait, let's take a break and we'll talk about some betting advice and we'll talk about the other series quickly in genre. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win that Super Bowl ring. He rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers,

host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, so House and I just talked about it over the break. I do not think the Clippers are dead.

I actually think they might have a better team. It doesn't mean the Suns can't win. I think it's close. I just think I trust them more as the series goes along. I already feel like, you know, look at the Suns bench tonight. They got a 5 for 5 from Cam Johnson. They got a 4 for 9 from Sarge.

And they got a 12 for 24 from Payne. Now, granted, no Chris Paul. And you go on the Clippers side, nobody on the Clippers played well. Clippers shot 45%. They made 13 threes. I can't point to one person who's like, well, that guy was awesome. Usually they get the awesome Reggie Jackson

game or the awesome Marcus Morris game. They got neither. I also think Kawhi will be back at some point. I think as the series goes along, I think Ty Lue just has a really good feel for what to do as the series evolves.

I'm not counting them out. Guess what? Home team's supposed to win the first two games house. That's exactly right. I agree with you. I don't think that the Clippers are better. I think it's a pretty even matchup. I think the sons have the,

the two best players. I mean, you can quibble about Paul George versus Booker, and I think they're going to go back and forth. I think that's even. The third best player is Aiton. I think the third best player, yes, among the teams with live bodies

out there, Aiton's the third best player I think. See, we're going to go Nick Batum. What? Nick Batum? Only 16 minutes today. This is the experimentation. By the way, I bet Nick Batum. What? Nick Batum only 16 minutes tonight. This is the experimentation. By the way, I bet Nick Batum over 18 and a half points, rebounds, and assists. I don't

think he had three points, rebounds, and assists tonight. No, he had three points, two rebounds, and one assist. So congratulations on that. I only missed that by 12 and a half. I like the clips in seven bet at 11 to 1. Me too. I think that's a good one. Say the odds again. Say them again.

11 to 1. 11! Because I think the Clips can win a road game anywhere. I don't think it matters. You and I are in absolute lockstep agreement. They've proven it. The punch in the mouth they took from Dallas and who from

the ringer wrote this story? Somebody wrote about, you know, they were kind of shocked into becoming the best version of themselves. Was it Charks? Who wrote that story? I can't remember. It doesn't matter. I do feel like there is some 90s Pistons feel to them.

And I don't think it's a team that could be like, wow, we just lost a devastating game. There's no recovery. They'll come back. They're resilient. So then the other series, Hawks-Bucks. Hawks are plus 360.

Bucks are minus 460. We talked about it in the part that's coming up with KOC and Kyle Waz. We talked about it a little bit. Everybody kind of likes the Hawks with sleeper potential. And one of the cases would be the Bucs offense is so kind of broken that even Brooklyn's defense with Harden on one leg was getting stops against them.

And you think like the Bucs have three and a half guys who can score basically. They have, and Holiday hasn't even been shooting well lately, but Middleton Giannis holiday, if he shows up and then kind of half a Lopez and then nobody else on the team can score points. That's two guys and two half guys. So that's three guys,

three, four for three, four for three. So basically I think if you can get to 110 points on them, I think they'd have a lot of trouble matching that. Now the, the Hawks had a lot of trouble getting to that against Philly,

but Philly's also probably the best defensive team in the league. They also run Bogdanovich's banged up, no Hunter. So, I don't know. I personally think Giannis is, I don't want to bet against him

in this series because I think he really, something happened in that Brooklyn series, especially in that game seven and some of the stuff he was doing. I wouldn't want to bet against him. But I also, you know, you look at the Bucs minus 460. That is not a line I would throw in a parlay or anything. So to me, this is like a bet it game by game, watch it, feel it out, see it,

maybe bet Hawks game three at home, that kind of thing. But I would not bet the Bucs in a parlay or anything. No out. See it. Maybe bet Hawks game three at home. That kind of thing. But I would not bet the Bucs in a parlay or anything. No way. Absolutely not. It's a bogey bummer. Like if Bogdanovich was healthy and Hunter, you already sort of count out. And by the way, if you're a Hawks fan, you say, man, I love the way this is all coming together.

Just wait till next year. Wait till this because Hunter is their best defensive player. In my humble opinion, they'll figure something out with Collins. Collins will either go or, and, and, and they'll figure out some kind of asset to bring back. Um, but I, I, I, Collins might be kind of expendable to be honest. I might prefer Hunter having all of that time and that run, uh, over Collins, but that that's like, you know, for, for next season to think honest. I might prefer Hunter having all of that time and that run over Collins, but that's like, you know, for next season to think about. I think what I'm going to do gambling wise is just bet the Hawks money line every game and, you know, just sort of play it

out that way. Yeah, I like that strategy. Trey Young, any apologies? We we've Russo and I both laid out our apologies do you do were you in the he's a good stats bad team guy camp I'm sure I participated in Trey Young slander I just think it was warranted like the circumstances radically changed their whole season and we've talked about it a couple times on this pod and I know you

and Russo have covered it exhaustively everything changed when Bogdanovich came back healthy and when Nate came in as coach, was installed as coach. And, you know, their fortunes, the situation changed in such a way to bring out the very best version of Trey for the first time in his professional career. And good for him to, to show us what he's been capable of and good for him to have the gigantic balls that he has and good for him, his instincts. What a charismatic cat. Who knew?

We needed him. Yeah. He's like a new Reggie Miller. He's ready to be the villain all over the place. Fucking wonderful. I'm so happy about it. So if that's an apology, I apologize. But I love Trey Young.

You kidding? I love him too. I've never done a 180 over a shorter amount of time. I'm all in. Even when he sucked in game seven, I was waiting for it. He did the 180. We didn't do the 180. He did the 180. He did the 180. If, uh, if you had a buddy who had the Hawks at 85 to one to win the title from a

month and a half ago, what would you tell him from a hedging standpoint? Cause you may, you might be talking to him right now. What's the market. What's that market call where you can sell a ticket that you have. What's that thing called? Cousin Sal knows.

Yeah. See what you can get for that ticket. See what somebody wants to pay you for it. There's an open market you could put it up for. 85 to 1. They're now like 12 to 1. What's the auction? There's an auction for that. Put it up there. See what kind of price you get. So you don't think I should

hedge with the bucks? No. Just ride it out. You didn't put a big amount of money on it. Can we get to the real topic, which is the Hawks and the Clippers making round three. There's now a certain team on the hook with a streak called longest streak

not making the conference finals. And it happens to be LeBleu. You didn't even know. I had to call it to your attention. You and Rosillo. I had to tell you boys about what's going on down here in Washington town. You now root for the NBA team that has taken the longest time to make the conference finals. And this includes all the expansion teams that have come into the league since 1980.

You have not had it happen since we were like nine years old in 1979 when you lost in the finals. Last time. It's really hard to believe that that's the case. But the other stultifying fact, the truly unbelievable fact to go along with that, the perfect pair,

they haven't won 50 games since 1979. I thought you were kidding when you told me that. And I went on basketball reference and you were right. That's an unbelievable, it's impossible. It feels impossible. Like you think about just the way the lottery works. It's almost impossible not to stumble into a multi-time all-star at some point over 50 years. And some of those Washington teams with Gilbert Arenas and Jameson and Tough Juice, those were good teams. They didn't win 50.

They didn't go 50 and 32. How hard is it? Apparently pretty hard. I was looking at weirdest post-seasons ever, and there's some whiz post- postseason runs that I had just forgot about because they were so irrelevant. Like in 2015, you made round two

with a 46-win team and lost to a 60-win Hawks team that then got swept by the Cavs in the next round. There's like moments like that. You have like little... John Wall broke his hand. The Wizards would have won that

if he hadn't busted his hand. I firmly believe that. Do you want to make your Ben Simmons offer to America? Daryl listens to this pod sometimes. Do you want to make Daryl your offer? Well, the best offer, the best trade, I honestly believe, is some combination of Kyle Lowry and a pick or something like that. That's really the offer that makes the most sense.

Well, Kyle Lowry is a free agent, though. You mean like a sign-in trade? Yeah, sign-in trade. Because the inducement for Philly has to include a little bit of juice. They have no possibility at all of

acquiring Kyle Lowry through free agency. They have $100 million tied up in those three guys. So you got to work out something.'s either got to get a third team, but, uh, wait a second. First of all, you're a terrible, you'd be a terrible GM. You just undermined your own offer. What do you mean? Even before I let you make your offer on the wizard's behalf for Ben Simmons, you talked about how somebody else already has a better offer. I'm not the GM of the wizards. Well, you might as well be.

You don't have a coach. You have the same GM who signed Davis Bertons to $80 million. I believe in Tommy Shepard. He got Daniel Gafford, the defensive player of the year next year. Okay. By the way, not a great,

not a great run for the all NBA defense team. Is defense overrated? This is for another podcast at some point. None of the all defensive first team. Is defense overrated? This is for another podcast at some point. None of the all defensive first team guys worth a shit in the playoffs, buddy. I don't think defense is overrated. I think what we're learning is that it is a hundred times

more important to have good offense than good defense. I think we've learned that lesson. Yes, I have to agree with you. If you can put out five shooters against a team that's playing four on five, you're probably going to win. Tell me why the Sixers would say no to Russell Westbrook for Ben Simmons. That's not your offer. Come on. First of all, that the toughness, that guy has an unparalleled motor. He's not afraid to shoot in the fourth quarter. If you wanted to shoot 20 times in the fourth quarter, he'll do it.alleled motor. He's not afraid to shoot in a fourth quarter. If you wanted to

shoot 20 times in the fourth quarter, he'll do it. Just ask him. He'll shoot 20 times. This is not even an overstatement or hyperbole. The run that he went on over the last 25 games here in Washington was the most exciting performance by an individual player since Gilbert Arenas was here in Washington. And that's not that, that was something that was something for the fans here in Washington, like me to dig in and, and really enjoy.

And so I, so why do you want to trade them? Well, I mean, cause this is, I don't want Ben Simmons here because I don't have any, uh, idea who the coach is going to be. And so I don't know what the development plan would be want Ben Simmons here because I don't have any idea who the coach is going to be.

And so I don't know what the development plan would be for Ben Simmons. And I honestly think Ben Simmons needs to go to a place where he can be protected and nurtured, which is another reason why I think Toronto is a good destination for him. San Antonio could be a good destination for him. The Lakers could be a good destination for him. He needs to go somewhere with a spotlight. There's some other thing going on with that franchise where they can protect him and take the spotlight off of him to let him go ahead and figure out

whether or not he's going to be a competent basketball player. Why didn't you at least float out the Bertans, Daniel Gafford, and Danny Avgia trade with some future firsts. You didn't even want to go through the motions of that one. So mean. Westbrook's your move? You think Westbrook is solvent? You think Westbrook and the Philly crowd

is a good idea? You started on this off by saying Daryl listens to this pod. Do you think Daryl's watched Davis Bertans before? Do you think he'd die? Are you think Daryl's watched Davis Bertons before? Do you think, are you kidding me? You're the guy. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Davis was tough. It's tough when you sign the $80 million contract, but then you suck, you suck during the start of the season and you have to use the, I was blindsided.

I didn't realize the season was going to start this soon. You're a professional athlete. How are these guys blindsided by earlier seasons? You tried to use that explanation with me on Fat Luca, who started off the season out of shape. He was the

MVP favorite. Oh, plus 450. That's a good price. Go get Luca. I love Luca, though. I shouldn't have defended Luca. I shouldn't have defended it. You're a professional athlete. Stay in shape for 12 months a year. How hard is this? You have no other job.

In Washington, we just call that the Mahinmi. Like we basically, Bertans, Yama Himi didn't know it, but we basically created a new slot here in Washington where we pay somebody 16 or $17 million a year that literally can't play, that can play maybe like, you know, 14 effective minutes most of the time,

can't defend a lick. We're just going to have that. We have that spot here on our roster now. That should be a ringer oral history where each episode is devoted to somebody in that $15 million slot and you interview

other Bullets fans about why that was such a bad... Andre Blotch was my favorite when they amnestied him before the extension kicked in. My favorite moment of the decade. Already front office. That's never happened again. It might be a Grunfeld's

number one. It's tough though because Grunfeld's got a lot up there. It might be. It's up at the top of all time Grunfeld's. I feel like he invented that. It's the Grunfeld's got a lot up there. It might be, it's up at the top of all-time Grunfelds. I feel like he invented that. It's the Grunfelds. It is. It's not the Mahinmi. We're investigating somebody whose extension hasn't kicked in yet. It's not the Mahinmi. It's the Grunfeld.

Unbelievable. Where do you want Ben Simmons to go? I know you listed a bunch of teams, but deep down, where do you want him to go? See, I think I love his game. I love his game in the open court. I love his instincts

distribution wise. So I want him to get a shot. So I think this is just ridiculous. I want him to go to the Lakers. I think it extends LeBron's career. It takes pressure off of Davis. I think that's too much pressure for him. I think he's got to go to a Siberia team

like Orlando. Go off the map for two years and find yourself again, Ben Simmons. You're passing up dunks in game sevens. You need to go to Siberia. Siberia, though, doesn't help him find what he needs. He needs to learn how to play basketball.

He needs to learn how to shoot. That's not going to happen in Orlando. That's not going to happen in Minnesota. That's to learn to shoot. And that's not going to happen in Orlando. And that's not going to happen in Minnesota. And that's not going to happen. Who knows what's going to happen in New Orleans. But, you know. Remember when we were worried about this when he was at LSU

and we just saw no competitiveness out of him at all? We were like, wait, isn't this a bad sign? Isn't this alarming that this guy's the number one pick and seems to be treated in this season like it's i don't know the ninth pickup game of the day at some pickup park i i don't think it's not like an instinct i don't feel like he lacks competitiveness he doesn't look lazy to me he looks more lost to me like it's not that he's missing a fire. It's that he's missing a basketball IQ

kind of element more so. He doesn't know what to do. He looks more lost. You host the Fairway Wong Golf Podcast for us, which is excellent, with our boy Nate Hubbard. Who is the golf equivalent of Ben Simmons? Because it can't be Spieth, because Spieth's actually won. It's probably Ricky Fowler because he's now, it's not a perfect comparison because Fowler's older and has been around longer.

But golf has a long horizon and Ricky's still young enough that he could win four or five majors. But the talent has been there, and he's won some tournaments, but not gotten over the hump in majors. Gotten very close in majors, but not been able to just put the pedal down and get across the finish line. And now folks are sort of wondering aloud, ricky fowler ever going to win a major congrats to ricky he came on the fairway rolling podcast by the way a couple months ago awesome awesome dude um his wife they just announced she's pregnant so congrats and he's got that and maybe that will be the thing you know it changes your life perspective

and maybe that will help him he's been in a sort of a a down place for a while we've seen little green shoots of his game coming back um but he lost his putting stroke and he was one of the very best putters on tour and then it just left him so yeah the putting is like the free throw shooting and yes a lot of ways great comp where i can completely uh submarine you all right before we go our guy guy John Rahm finally did it. You covered it extensively on Fairway Rolling. He was 11-1 heading into the last round. And I did not step in because I was on a self-imposed suspension

for some poor gambling behavior. Yes, I understand. Over the last couple of months. But that was NBA gambling. You still give yourself permission to golf. I know. You know, when you're on golf,

when you're on a call, I was on an incredible hot streak during the NFL playoffs. And then it came around the other way, but, uh, I still rooted for him. Like I bet on him. That's your guy.

Him and Fleetwood are your guy. Rom and Fleetwood are your guys every, every week. Uh, I mean, every major. Him draining those putts on 17 and 18. We're so fucking exciting.

Nobody makes those pots anymore. It's like, like seriously, like instant legend kind of shit, like an iconic. And for him to win it that way at the same venue that has the history of tiger back in 2008. And for him to be the favorite coming in there,

to have won his first ever tournament on the PGA Tour at that venue, the first major since he became a new father, I think. No, no, no. It was the second major. But in any event, a bunch of karma stuff at play there.

Oh, it was his first father day. Coming off the dumb COVID thing, too, when he had to give up the title with one round to go, basically. He was going to win the Memorial. He was six strokes up and had one of the best rounds

of the entire year. He has my favorite all-around game. And I really felt vindicated because I really felt like, and we talked about it a bunch of times, I just felt like he has to win a major at some point. He does everything well.

I don't know what his weak spots are. That was a ballsy. And there was a moment there with Brooks when it seemed like Brooks was going to make a run. And then he bogeyed the, uh, the par three. But when we're talking about best golfers alive, DJ, Kepka, Rom, Bryson, Bryson. And then... Justin Thomas. Justin Thomas has got to be in there.

I feel like Ustazan has to be in here at some point. He's just in the money too many of these majors. At some point, we have to take him seriously. We were talking about him. We were calling him a major sniffer. He's always sniffing around when it comes to the majors. Well, you know how there's always the one foreigner? Molinari was in there for a little

while, but you know. Frank the Onions. Faldo way back when, but there's always like the one foreigner who's just lurking for like five years. And I think it's Oosthuizen now. Well, the record reflects that that's accurate. He hasn't won

on PGA Tour, so he's not in this list of the top players in the world because he doesn't win but he gets second in every major so he's definitely in the conversation but the top five are rom dj brooks bryson and jt and then if you want to you know uh put colin morikawa up in there and xander's around around the hoop I mean, you know, that's fine. I don't mind mentioning those young guys. The interesting thing is Rory's not in the top five. And, you know, you can't make an argument to put him in the top five.

I don't have faith in Rory in these majors. I never feel like he's going to make a run, and I never take him seriously. I never think about live betting him, any of that stuff. I just don't. He was four under at one point as he approached the back nine and then it didn't happen. So are you coming here for the Open?

The Open Championship, yes. I think we're going to figure out me coming out to LA. I need to get back. It's been over a year since we've dined together. It's probably the first time since 1988.

This is the longest we've ever not seen each other in 33 years. I think you're right. It's like a year and four months, something like that. Yeah, we got to get out here. We got to eat. Are the restaurants open? That's the most important question.

Restaurants are open. Yeah. I have a Koreatown place for you. I have a San Gabriel Valley place for you. I have a steak place for you. All right. Yeah, we got a lot of stuff going. All right, House. Thanks for staying up I have a steak place for you. All right. Yeah, we got a lot of stuff going. All right, House.

Thanks for staying up late on the D'Ali Oop podcast. D'Ali Oop. The amazing... I didn't even drink tonight. We'll have to work on that. That's another thing we'll have to do. And congrats on the Ben Simmons-Russell Westbrook trade. Good luck.

See ya. All right, coming up, it is the live Ringer Lottery show that we did. It's me and KSC and Kyle Mann and Big Waz. And if you just want to fast forward to after the lottery happened, just go about a half hour in from this point right now. Go 30 minutes ahead as the lottery happens. And then we react to all the different variables that came out of it.

So there you go. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions

apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. It's the live lottery show here on The Ringer. My name is Bill Simmons. Kevin O'Connor's up there. Kyle Mann. Big Waz. We're going to prepare over the next 20 minutes for a consequential lottery. Now, the lottery is always important. Always things happen. Get a number one pick. You know, number one overall, you get excited about. This one has ramifications.

KOC, the biggest ramification for you tonight with how the ping pong balls could go with teams losing their picks, keeping their picks. It's that Houston pick. They have the number one odds in the draft lottery. However, if they fall out of the top four, it's going to the Oklahoma City Thunder. And that would be bad, bad news for Rafael Stone and that Rockets front office if they lose that pick. Because the opportunity is here to get a franchise-changing player in Cade Cunningham or Evan Mobley with the number one or number two pick.

And then two really good consolation prizes in Jalen Suggs and Jalen Green at three or four. So if that pick falls to five, they then have to swap it for the number 18 pick and number five would go to OKC. OKC also has the fourth best odds in the ping pong thing. So the OKC best scenario would be coming out of here with one and five and then Presti's taking a big victory lap. We also have Minnesota. Waz, how'd you feel about the D Russell trade

as it was happening when you found out Minnesota was giving up a top three future protected pick what was your reaction back in the day one you know they're doing the trade because it's Carl Anthony Towns guy I'm I'm not a fan of bending over backwards for guys who've never done anything for your franchise right like it's like why are we doing this for a guy who we once got the eighth seed because Jimmy Butler was in town and everything else has been pure misery. So why are we bending over backwards and moving heaven and earth to bring in guys at his behest? At a certain point, it's like, is it the end of the world if Karl-Anthony Towns doesn't want to be there anymore?

If I trade him and get stuff for it, right? I think a lot of times teams are guarding against something that they don't actually need to. Start the clock again on another potential franchise dude. So that component of the trade. Well, wait, it gets worse than that because Wiggins was part of the trade in the terms of that added to the value of the pick because it was like, well, you have to take Wiggins.

Kyle Mann, Wiggins is now your guy. You're ready to do like a 25-minute summer video of him this summer, I think, right? Me personally, no. I mean, I've done one on him before. I have bad information. My bad. I'll sign up for it.

Did somebody say that in the chat? No. No. No, Wiggins isn't my guy. But Wiggins was better in Golden State than you expected him to be, correct?

Maybe? Yeah, I mean, he fits, I mean, he's sort of plug and played in there and there's not as much expected from him in terms of like

dictating the culture of the team or anything like that. I mean, I understand, I don't know how much we want to talk about the merits of Carl Anthony Towns, but it's been pretty bleak over the history of the franchise for Minnesota.

So, I mean, I understand why they would be hesitant to lose him because, I mean, he is generationally special as an offensive player. I guess the problem is they've made some mistakes in terms of how they planned, in terms of what types of stars. And those things are more troubling to me. Whenever they brought in Jimmy Butler, if you know anything about Carl Anthony Towns, you would have known that that was a bad idea from the jump.

And personality-wise, that was just not going to work. Because they come from different sort of... Jimmy is such a self-made man that he only has patience for certain types of players. It seems well didn't sound like he liked Ben Simmons either. Oh, he doesn't really one of the reasons he left Philly was he didn't

like the culture there either. Then he finally found he culture and the rest was history aren't all of these moves that Minnesota is made from Jimmy Butler. Now D'Angelo Russell isn't at all about just trying to make things work with Carl Anthony Towns because he is that special offensive talent Kyle mentioned, pairing him with a great two-way wing like Butler, pairing him with a pick-and-roll point guard like

D'Angelo Russell. On paper, I understand it, but a lot of these moves do reek of desperation and rushing things rather than taking your time. And so that's why for Minnesota, tonight's really important too because they could get one of those guys who can help really build something nice here alongside. Now, Cat, Anthony Edwards, and D'Lo is potentially your third or fourth guy. He doesn't have to be a key player.

Well, and then on the flip side was Golden State. If they end up getting four or six, they keep Wiggins. They get Klay Thompson coming back. They got a full year of Wiseman. They're in a West that is just completely in flux. We might see the Phoenix Suns are the favorites to make the finals in the West. It's not unrealistic to think if this goes their way tonight,

the Warriors could be the favorites in the West next year. Well, I think they could automatically switch up the tenor and the feel of their roster because of the young guys, right? Like you got Wiseman and you have these two phenomenal picks, potentially, and you can move them and you can get actual legitimate NBA players for them. And to get back to Minnesota, again, and I hate to be the defense, you know,

hard-nosed floorburns guy here, but how the hell is Minnesota supposed to put together a good team with, at the point of attack, Russell's horrible at defense. We know that. And Carl Towns has been just as bad at the most important defensive position on the floor. And I don't think D'Angelo Russell is the type of offensive player that turns them into some type of juggernaut just because he's there. I just think, again, the idea that you would have brought this dude in just because Cat wanted you to. And because he played two months of good ball in Brooklyn and made it as an all-star injury reserve, and we get to call him an all-star now. I mean, Minnesota, dude, holy moly. Well, it's a great example of when you have bad leadership at the top in basketball,

it's no coincidence. Like, Hey, guess who's in the lottery again? It's Sacramento. Guess who's here again? It's Orlando. These are teams that we see over and over again. I think the thing with Minnesota, I don't want to defend towns. I'm not a huge fan. But when you see, this playoffs has been kind of the death of the quote unquote good stats, bad team guys. With, oh, the KFC's smiling now.

Where Booker and Trey Young, where we just look at them like, great, they're putting up stats. Their team's not winning. But then all of a sudden, they had the right guys around them and their team started winning. And KFC, why can't Towns be in the same situation as Booker and Trey? I think Towns can be. Absolutely. I mean, Carl Anthony Towns is just an absolutely brilliant

offensive player. He's not just one of the best shooting bigs. He's a great shooter, period, regardless of position. You can run him off screens and handoffs. He can take guys off the dribble. He can post up. He can do it all on offense. Defensively, I thought this year he made some progress playing a little bit on the wing position, playing not having to be that rim protector in that role. And maybe for Minnesota, that's the format moving forward. You know, if they do get lucky on draft night and they're able to draft an Evan Mobley who can take on more of that room protection, I think suddenly the conversation about Katz defense could change. But with that said, to Waz's point, you know, D'Lo at the top of that defense struggles. Anthony Edwards still needs to improve and like play

at the level that his body looks like he can, strong and versatile. So they have the potential to be a solid defense, but this is a team that if they build this out the right way, they're going to have to get by with solid defense and amazing offense. They're going to be that type of team with that type of flavor. And I think about James Harden in Houston, right? Because we talk about actually complementing your quote-unquote franchise guys with players that fit

into whatever their deficiencies might be, right? Daryl Morey was like, look, James Harden doesn't like playing defense. We need a guard like Patrick Beverly who can't handle the ball,

but he'll guard whoever you want and he's developed an outside shot. We need big men like Clint Capella, who don't mind planting somebody on a screen, creating that vertical spacing to suck in the defense. James Harden is a generational playmaker, passer, and he sprays it out to the corners.

Okay, James Harden is tired of taking on that burden as the prime initiator. Let's get Chris Paul in here. You see them win 64 games. There's a plan to what the hell they're doing. What the hell is Minnesota's plan been with Carl Anthony Towns? You can't tell me it's D'Angelo Russell. That don't make no damn

sense. And now you have Edwards who is giving me the ball. I like Edwards too, but he's another one who's like, give me the ball and I'm going to do some stuff. So, KOC, if they end up getting this draft pick, which it would have to be one, two, or three, probably not looking for a scorer who's just quickly, and then I'll ask you the same thing, Kyle,

perfect guy in the draft for Minnesota. Evan Mobley, he can offer the rim protection that could help compliment Carl Anthony Towns as well as being a guy who has some skill on the offensive end. He can pass a little bit, shoot a little bit for you. With the upside to possibly down the line be one of the primary guys.

So I love what his baseline could be next to Cat, and then his upside could be one of the best frontcourt duos in the entire league. And Kyle, I think we've talked a lot about Mobley on the Ringer NBAba show and i mean you and i both really love him it seems i like it yeah sharks loves him too uh sharks texted me i remember he hadn't seen mobile yet and i was he was like tell me about him and i just kind of said some things and he texted me back like not long after watching him and was like he's special so i mean in a very like sober

like serious way which shark i I took it, you know, I trust sharks, his opinion a lot. And I think that, uh, I agree though, too. I think that positionally he is very clever. And if you watch the way that he plays, um, he doesn't have to be like a heavy volume offensive guy. He wasn't for USC. There were times where he would just sort of blend in and kind of play whatever role really good passer uh those two guys together i think are really interesting for me i think that they need as much culture shift as possible uh and i think that if they can get him i think that jalen sugs would be a fantastic fit for them to like to play and then i also think that that could create expendability which is something that i think could happen for a few teams in this draft. I really like Suggs or Mobley with them. If you can get Cade, obviously get Cade, but I think

either of those guys fit too. I don't know that Jalen Green in that range would be good for them. The Minnesota would be one of those teams that I don't think should prioritize Green. I would go Suggs over Green if I were Minnesota. Well, I forgot to mention there's a third variable for this lottery. The first one is Houston. Top four, they keep it. If it goes to five, they have to swap it for 18. Second one is Minnesota. Top three, they keep it. 28% chance. Golden State has a 72% chance to get this pick, which is pretty nice if you're Golden State. And then the third one was Chicago. It's the number eight pick. If it pops up to top four, they keep it.

If it does not pop up to top four, Kevin Clark's Orlando Magic will be getting the pick. And it is an 80% chance for the Orlando Magic to get that pick. On top of they gave up Wendell Carter. There's another pick in that trade too, right? Wasn't there another first rounder beyond Wendell Carter? Yeah. I think it's a future one.

Yeah. Yeah. Is that too much to give up for Vooch who didn't even get you to the playoffs? Of course it is. I mean, like they made that trade at the deadline and everybody was essentially convinced that they would find themselves in the playoffs somehow. And it didn't end up working because Vucevic was Vucevic, right? Like he's a nice offensive player. I don't know that he changes your life in that way. Because again, he's a one-dimensional guy and you know, he's made strides on a defensive end, but he is

what he is. I do want to go back to what KOC was saying about them drafting a rim protector next to Carl Anthony Towns. My man, Stephen Jones Jr. talked about recently working with Brooke Lopez and Brooklyn and how they never thought he would ever get to the level of the defensive player he showed himself to be right now. And we've seen it countless times with different bigs, whether it be even somebody like Miles Turner, who I mentioned before, who was horrible at defense. I just want to understand how it can be that we need to suck up to Carl Anthony Towns, but we also need to draft people that are better than him at defense. Like it can't be both, right? I love this lane for you, Waz.

I think this is strong. Why do we keep building around Carl Anthony Towns when he can't be both, right? I love this lane for you, Waz. I think this is strong. Why do we keep building around Carl Anthony Towns when he can't win, no matter who we have? If we can't ask him to be the defensive anchor, like you want all of these concessions made. You got to be the player that's worth those concessions. So if we can't ask you to get

to the level of Brooke freaking Lopez, bro, why are we kissing your ass? I don't understand that. When was the last time we had a guy who was an offensive one and a defensive one on a title level team that was a sinner? When was the last time we had one?

Small ball five, yeah. I mean, Shaq. Right. Well, I guess in an Embiid. I mean, I would have said Davis last year. Davis was a 1B offensively and a 1AAA plus defensively for the Lakers. Yeah, I mean, it's just not a super common thing. I don't think that it's ridiculous.

I guess just, I don't know, can Mobley space? Where does Mobley, how do they fit on the floor? I think that's something that they would have to explore and work at. But I think that he would fit the personalities that are a little more score first on that roster. A little bit is, is putting it mildly with,

with, with, with Edwards and DLO. But yeah, what's a, what's audible quick to just what this lottery looks like for the people that haven't followed it. I hope you're checking out.

You can have it up right now as you're watching the ladder and listen to us. Uh, NBA draft. Dot the ringer.com. KOC's latest mock draft is up there, his rankings, all that stuff. KOC, you have a top two and then a next three and then a really big tier after that. Top two, Kate Cunningham of Mobley, then Jalen Green, Jalen Suggs, Jonathan Kaminga,

and then another slight drop. And then it goes six to 20 range. Is that correct? Three tiers? Yeah. I mean, like after six, it's a, it's a really a matter of taste where that next tier stops. I mean, maybe it's more like six to 11 or 12, something like that. But, um, it, the draft does flatten out.

And like a lot of the players after that top five, including Kaminga at five, he could arguably be in that tier below Suggs and Green. A lot of guys who have clear potential, serious skills, specific skills, like shooters like Kispert or athletic guys like Keon Johnson, but guys with flaws too that could really hold them back from reaching their potential. But the top two, Cunningham and Mobley, I mean like what we're talking about here with bigs and like who fits where Mobley can fit anywhere Cunningham can fit anywhere there's no fit issues with any of those guys with the top two Suggs absolutely can fit anywhere yeah no doubt about it so we have Houston

Detroit Orlando OKC Cleveland as our top five. I like a couple of the players. I really like Cunningham and I like Suggs and I like Mosley. And then you look at the teams they could potentially go to. And like Orlando and Detroit just makes me sad. You're going there. It's like, cool. We're going to suck for three years.

You have to play with Killian Hayes though. Oh, your guy Killian. Yeah. Cleveland's, I don't know what Cleveland's identity is. It's like, the backcourt's a little strange. I don't know what's going on, Kevin Love.

That's the identity. Garland and Sexton are supposed to be amazing. That's what Cleveland fans were yelling at us about early on last season. It's fizzled out. And then we stopped listening. Yeah. I'm a big Larry Nance

Jr. fan, though. They're probably going to trade him, right, this summer? You would think. Houston's got the best chance to get the number one pick, and God only knows what happens with them. And then, you know, OKC, they have 38 picks, and they're in the

middle of some rebuilding project that I can't even figure out anymore. I thought the Kemba trade was a little confusing. I like SGA. Poku at least deserves another year to kick the tires on his potential. They had a lot of good younger random dudes that I thought were pretty enticing as rotation guys. But I have no idea how long their rebuilding thing is going to be. All right. Mark Tatum is up there and we're about to do the lottery.

We have 14th pick. Wait a second. 14th pick went to the Indiana Pacers. Oh no, that's 13th pick. My bad. All right. 14 to Warriors, 13 to Indiana, 12 to San Antonio. So we're going chalk so far.

Okay. The 11th pick should be Charlotte unless they rigged it for MJ because they owed him more royalties than the last dance. Nope. 11th is Charlotte. We're still chalk.

10th, New Orleans. Can New Orleans get another break here? I like how Tatum is able to talk while smiling. I think that's a great quality. Nope. New Orleans get another break here? I like how Tatum is able to talk while smiling. I think that's a great quality. Nope. New Orleans is 10. So then Sacramento is nine here. If this goes right.

And then coming up after that would be our first big thing. Sacramento nine. Okay. So eight. If this is Chicago, it goes to Orlando. If it's not Chicago, that means Chicago moved up top four. First kind of exciting moment here. It's Orlando.

So Orlando gets the eighth pick, Waz. You did not like that trade. Seventh pick should be Toronto. This is another one I feel like they could rig. Toronto getting the number one pick wouldn't be a bad thing. Not that they rigged the lottery. To make up for the meaning of Sampa? Golden State from Minnesota.

Wow. So Toronto moves up. Golden State ends up getting the seventh pick. So we got two things answered there. All right. So Toronto we know is in the top four and we know Golden State is the seventh pick. That's great for them.

So Minnesota has no first round pick this year. Nope. Sixth pick goes to OKC, which means... That means Cleveland moved up too, right? So Cleveland and Toronto have moved up. Brutal for Minnesota. They just showed Colby Altman. It looks like he just took melatonin.

That's fifth pick coming up. This should be Orlando. Wow. So OKC moved up. So we had OKC, Cleveland. Presti gets to be a genius again. So wait, the only one that

I'm confused. Wait, did OKC get that pick from Houston or for OKC? I'm confused wait did OKC get that pick from Houston or for OKC I'm confused it would probably help if we could listen to the broadcast I'm not watching on TV there's Nazi Muhammad well they're showing Detroit

so Detroit's still in it and I think Houston probably stayed in it. So I think OKC. So that was our, yeah, Houston's in it. So that was our worst case scenario if you're OKC. You dropped down to five. Can I share a text with you that I just received

from one of my good friends who's a Knicks fan? Yeah. He said, tonight is usually my Super Bowl. I was going to say, we need to celebrate a few teams that aren't here tonight. They usually are. The Suns, the Wizards, the Knicks, the Hawks. Not present tonight. Good for them.

We have Toronto, Cleveland, Detroit, and Houston as our top four. Toronto getting rewarded for spending the whole year in Tampa Bay. Well-deserved in all seriousness. Yeah, I gotta say, that's why I joked that I thought they could rig the

lottery for them because first of all, I thought they didn't tank until the tail end, but they kind of had some nobility to what they did. They had to play a year in Florida. I don't know. I mean, I'll tell you i'm okay with that with toronto

if they bring back kyle lowry and if they nail this pick like they could significantly be right back in that race you know maybe not a favorite for the championship but they could be right back in the thick of the playoffs if they nail this pick i mean can they do that can can masai do that for a third year in a row it It doesn't seem like his nature, right? This sort of tread water type of team. And they overachieved last season. They damn near got to the conference finals. They gave Boston all they could handle in the second round. This year kind of blew up on them because of injuries and the sort of discombobulated nature of the season. Can you go into the season again with this treadwater type of situation after you've tasted the championship in 2019, KLC?

I think with Masayu Jiri, he said something back at the Sloan Conference back in like 2015 or 2016 before trading DeRozan. And he's like, you know, my philosophy, I'm paraphrasing here, has always been about developing young guys while also competing to win. So I think Masai Ujiri has always tried to win in Treadwater, as you're saying, while also having youth on the team. And we're seeing some of those young players, OG Ananobi, Fred VanVleet, Pascal Siakam, who has blossomed, right? And so if they get a number one pick, like, let's just say if they got Cade Cunningham or got Evan Mobley, I mean, that could really accelerate things quickly. And they want to become contenders.

But I think they would be continuing to do what they always do. But it would really be a matter of does he want to continue doing that? Or would he get rid of the older guys, you know, and then just go all young, all youth? Because that makes a heck of a lot of sense to do that. Can I ask you if you're Cade Cunningham, how hard are you rooting for Toronto right now versus the other options are Cleveland,

Detroit, and Houston? I'm sorry, I'm rooting for Toronto if I'm Cade Cunningham. I could be good right away. I think Houston is up there, too, though, because Houston to, let's face it, black NBA players, they're really into that city. I think this is like, Houston is like a two Americas type of thing.

Like, where people like, I mean, Houston's cool. A bunch of people I know who are non-black have been to Houston. It's like, it's a cool city. Like, it's big. It's decent food options. It's not bad. And then, like, black people go in there just like, this is the most amazing place I've ever been to in my life.

So, you know, I think that's always got to be a consideration. Houston is like the black Boston. You know what I mean? White guys in Boston is like, this city's amazing. Right. And I think Houston sort of has that dynamic. Jalen always used to tell me that when we worked together, but he always said the same thing about Toronto. He said Toronto

was also amazing for black athletes. Toronto makes the most sense basketball-wise. Yes, no question. He's going to be playing in a winning environment immediately. Well, shit, if they get one or two, Toronto's going to be good next year.

Then you would have to rethink, like, about do we just bring back Lowry and do we actually try to make a real run at this? Free agent money? KOC seems dubious. No, I mean, what's on my mind is which of these teams is most likely to try to trade the pick

for, like, a Ben Simmons or a Bradley Beal or CJ McCollum or whoever might become available. And Toronto, I'm suspicious of in that regard to trade the pick yeah I mean they could go that way too I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do but it's just something on my mind with the guys out there potentially available like a Simmons or a Beal was do you think Cleveland's gotten enough top five picks or should we just give them like five more over the next seven years? Like how many top four lottery picks can we give them? Do you think I think this is like seventh or eighth for them?

I think that franchise has been completely useless. But for the fact that LeBron James grew up 45 minutes away from the city and got drafted by them miraculously. That's it. And came back because he felt bad that he had achieved a lot of success without them. Came back to save them. They've done nothing as a franchise besides LeBron. Nothing.

And I guess, you know, the Terrell Brandon years, shouts to Bob Sora. Oh, here we go. So our four reps are Hakeem Olajuwon, who looks very confident. Ben Wallace, who can't believe he's in the Hall of Fame. Colby Altman, who just took seven melatonins.

And Fred Van Vliet, who's hoping it's not Cade Cunningham. It's not going to be. Toronto is fourth. Maybe. That's still good for them, though. That's Sugg's range. Third is Cleveland. Green is interesting there, too. So is Kaming though. That's Suggs' range. Third is Cleveland. Green is interesting there, too.

So is Kaminga. So we have Houston and Detroit left. Those were our top two. Oh, Houston, too. Wow. Oh, your boy Killing Hayes is in trouble, KFC. Detroit gets the first pick. This is great.

Wonderful. This is going to be interesting. This really is. The Pistons is going to be interesting. This really is. The Pistons are going to be kind of interesting. I mean, I think they could be, I mean, defensively, they already have kind of found

like a little bit of a moment. I'm not, not enormous, but I mean, I think it's interesting. You know, Isaiah Stewart is maybe a backup, a pretty, we know he's a quality rotation big. Jeremy, you know, Killian,

Killian and sadiq bay and kade can play together like i i think that that could work um i like that and obviously jeremy grant having you know the best years of his career so far it's it's interesting when's the last time we said that about detroit like it's literally it's a win-win situation for them whether they go with cunningham or if there's an argument to be made for Mobley. Because Mobley can fit with anybody. He can fit with Stewart. He can fit with Grant.

Cunningham can play with or without the ball. So if you want to build a roster with multiple ball handlers, which I believe is their vision, and that's what they want to do. And Killian Hayes may not be the primary guy Cade Cunningham might be, but Hayes in a role where he can defend and make smart passes off the bounce It's really about his development as a spot-up shooter But with Cade Cunningham if he's the guy they go with at the number one pick I think he's the type of guy who can help a team really compete right away He's a floor is there no doubt about it Like he helped he makes guys around him better and I'm excited to see what he can do playing with the best talent

He's ever had cuz you get a downhill guy, you know, and Isaiah Stewart, who can be, you know, a rim runner for you. You'd have other guys who can handle the ball grant, who can handle some scoring for you. I think it's a really great situation for Cunningham to go into assuming he's the pick. Let's do winners and losers. Quick. Our top eight, Detroit, Houston, Cleveland, Toronto, Orlando, OKC, Golden State, and then Orlando again. So Chicago and Minnesota, no first round picks for them.

That's tough. OKC goes into this lottery thinking we have a chance to get two top five picks. They drop to number six. Brutal. And then Toronto is a winner and a loser because there's a moment there where they think they have a chance for the top two picks.

They still get four, which is awesome, but they move up from seven to four. That's not like, it's great. It's not a game changer. So we think potentially Cunningham to Detroit, Mobley to Houston. Almost seems like it would make more sense for those two to flip picks.

Mobley with Christian Wood. What do we think about that? A little lean. Not a lot of weight in the front court. Waz, do you like anyone with Christian Wood? Do you like anyone, Waz? What are your Christian Wood thoughts? No, you know, the Christian Wood thing is funny because, you know, he leaves Detroit and everybody's kind of like, well, clearly Detroit knows something that we don't.

Because why do you just let this guy leave for this little bit of money? And he comes out and he kills it, right? And so he becomes this kind of overachiever. That's how we view him type of guy now. But, you know, I'm interested to see what he does when he comes back next year, because we always go through this cycle with young guys where it's like, you know, think of Jason Tatum after his rookie years, like, all right, he's the next Larry Bird. Then he underachieves his second year because people expect growth in the NBA young players to be completely linear they're like ah maybe he's not that great anymore is he is he a bust and then of course he comes back and he's steadily improving all the time right I would I love to see what Christian Wood comes back and he doesn't

and you know who I think won is Orlando because they just sucked at the draft, quite frankly. Like they've had nothing but high lottery picks. KFC is right here. Be careful. He's right here. Mo Bamba's last fan is right here looking at you. They've stunk it up when it comes to drafting. And so they get two bites at the apple.

You know, Isaacs is coming off of a bad injury. Mo Bamba is still not proven a single, like, credible NBA skill yet. Like, not one that you can say, all right, this is what he's going to do good in the NBA. Be nice, boss. Listen, I'm a Cole Anthony guy as a former CHSA, New York City Catholic School League guy, so I love Cole Anthony. But I'm happy for them because they need as many bites at the Apple as possible.

I mean, it's a tough place for them to fall, honestly, because they just need playmaking and on-court feel. That's what they need more than anything, and they've needed it for years. And in this draft, that's a tough spot to fall. I actually think Green would have been good for them. But I don't know if I want to reach and take somebody like for them i think but i don't know if i want to reach and take somebody like davion mitchell there i don't know okay i see what do you think where can they get the value they're looking for i think you guys are missing the option here and

that's a trade up because if you are if you're looking at cleveland at number three they already have sexton and garland are they really a team for sugs are they really a team for Suggs? Are they really a team for Green? Or are they a team that's like, oh yeah, let's trade down and get two picks instead of one. Because then Orlando could get their guy in Jalen Suggs at three and Cleveland could get a big wing. They could get a shooter.

So you're saying five and eight for three and something else? Yeah, something like that. That's what I'm thinking about. For sure. I'm very much into it. Cleveland, I don't love at the number three spot.

But I'll tell you what I do love, the fact that they are in a prime position to make a deal. And I think that is something we're going to hear a lot about in the coming weeks and months. So the Detroit Pistons,

this is the first time they will have the number one pick in the draft since 1970. Wow. Wow. They had, 1967, they had the first pick. They took Jimmy Walker, Jalen's dad. Then in 1970, they took Bob Lanier, Hall of Famer.

They took Isaiah Thomas with the second pick in 1981. They took Grant Hill with the third pick in 1994. And since then, they have not even come close to picking this high, except for the Immortal. Darko Milicic. Darko Milicic in 2003.

Cade to Detroit, I feel like, is bad for your guy Killian. I think we see Killian on a Paris, like a B-level Paris team maybe in three years, KOC. I think it's good for him. I honestly do.

Big competition. Okay. No, no. I think they could play together. You do. Make the case. Let's hear it. KOC said something earlier

where he said, you know, if you're a roster that's looking to have multiple ball handlers, let me just tell you, if you're an NBA roster and you're not thinking

we need multiple ball handlers, you should just sell your team because you're an NBA roster and you're not thinking we need multiple ball handlers, you should just sell your team because you're an idiot because that's the way basketball is right now. Everybody needs to get more playmaking and creation on the floor

as much as humanly possible. And like Detroit, I think that sort of the thing that people were knocking, the people who saw upside in Killian Hayes said this is a guy

that eventually could be the engine of an offense, hypothetically, heavy, heavy, hypothetically. I think this will take pressure off of him and maybe allow him to come along at a pace that is more realistic for him potentially but I also think it just it's going to put him in a position to

Kate Kate is a plug and play floor razor type player that is going to spoon feed him looks where he wants them so I think it's I think it's good I like it no doubt I think it's good. I like it. No doubt about it. I think that's a good point. You think like the Atlanta. If I'm any bad team, I'm studying Atlanta

and being like, alright, well how the fuck did this happen? This team is now the Eastern Finals. What is going on? They have a really talented point guard and then a bunch of shooters and basically if you study Atlanta long enough you realize like, oh, their top seven can all create their own shot.

So maybe that's our path. So Detroit now, assuming Hayes isn't a bust, and I actually like some of the stuff I saw from them last year. You got those two, Jeremy Grant. Now I have three guys and you're just kind of climbing your way toward having the seven guys. But maybe that's the way to think now.

I wonder, like, with Golden State, you know, with the Wiseman piece of this, and now they have the seventh pick. Wives, what am I getting for Wiseman in the seventh pick? I'm not getting Bradley Beal. People were pretty low on Wiseman towards the end of the season. His confidence was kind of shot. The guy couldn't catch a freaking pass on the low block to save his freaking life. Yeah.

And so, I don't, but I, you know, these guys are so young. I think you can easily get people still excited about a Wiseman and this pick. I don't, man, Ben Simmons? What are you going to do with draymond yeah i don't yeah i i it's it'll be interesting to see if they try to flip this pick or keep it because at that seven spot a davion mitchell from baylor even though he measured only at six foot he plays bigger than he is his defense that he could bring to that bench unit, the shooting, the ability to potentially sometime down the line, be somebody who creates offense for you while developing behind Stephen Curry.

This was the appeal for them last year with the mellow, you know, not a lot of pressure. You can learn behind these guys. I mean, whether it's Davion Mitchell or somebody else up there, even a Keon Johnson at the wing spot from Tennessee, there's some appealing guys who can play a little bit now and then pop later. So this isn't a loss necessarily for Golden State. See, but KOC, I don't like that in the sense of this whole in-between game of we're trying to win now and we're also trying to develop talent. You sort of sometimes run into a conflict of interest. And you saw it with Wiseman where they're yanking him in and out of the lineup. And it's like, all right, are we developing this guy for the future?

Or are we killing his trade value? Because he's so damn bad on a team that's trying to win, right? Like, it becomes this sort of push and pull. I think they need to get off of these young assets as soon as possible and get back to the business of maximizing your greatest player in franchise history's extended prime. They need to move off of these young kids because they don't help you win in the now. And Steph Curry, you need to be trying to win right now with him. Here's what I would do. I would take Mitchell seven. I think he's the perfect,

perfect warrior for the team I watched last year that I think they're going to gravitate to. Here's the thing with Wiseman. Just watching how much better Aiton has gotten in the last three months and watching the way he was able to be such an asset in game one of the Clipper series that game two is about to happen. But you could argue he's a more valuable asset than Rudy Gobert, which I did argue on Sunday night. I just would rather have Aiton. I'd rather have a mobile big who you can throw on the ball from five feet away and he can turn around and do a jump hook.

His hands are around the rim and can come out on shooters. KOC, couldn't Wiseman be that? Like, is it far-fetched to think he could be that a year and a half from now? I wouldn't say it's far-fetched, but I think Aiton, his feel was higher coming out of Arizona. He's older, too. Yeah, and he's always had an ability to contest and alter shots around the rim without falling. With James Wiseman, the feel for the game on the offensive end is not as high. Not that close.

You know, and, like, that's a good thing and a bad thing for him to be with the golden say wars because to your point was that's the tough part with wise i mean he wasn't ready to do like the fast you know decision making the passing immediately and he may never be but like the benefit of having a guy like that is the upside to be that eight and style player i think with them they do have to really be careful here we're not taking too much of a project i don't love the idea of a Keon Johnson, a Davion Mitchell. I mean, at his age,

22 years old, a junior red shirt, junior coming out of Baylor. He's somebody who can help right away, but still provide upside down the line. Like if they don't trade the pick, that's the way they have to be looking at the situation here. And,

and he's fucking tough too. Oh yeah. He will be, he will be an elite defender. I think on the perimeter um hey kyle if uh if if wiseman was in this draft what pick would he go oh gosh i'd say five somewhere in there five i mean I mean, I think people... I'm not saying big board here.

I'm just saying if I was guessing, what would be different a year later? If he had played the exact same college season and we were looking at it again... KOC, where do you have him? If it's after what we saw with the Warriors as a rookie? Wiseman's in the draft. That's not how it works.

He's back in the draft. No, no, no. Hypothetical. No, no. We know what he did as a rookie. Yeah, right now. He's back in the draft. They decided he's back in the draft. No, no, no. Hypothetical. We know what he did as a rookie. Right now, he's back in the draft. They made a new rule. He got to declare. Then he's not going top 10. Wow. Not going top 10?

10 is extreme. I don't know. Maybe not top 7 or 8. Wow. I don't think he'd go above Kaminga. I'm not so sure he'd go above even Mitchell depending on like what those team preferences are but not top seven maybe not top ten this is bad for the

Wiseman rookie cards I mean the way I brought it up I was trying to figure out could they trade him like straight up for the third pick could they trade him straight up for the fourth pick well that's what I'm thinking here like if you're the Pelicans with the tenth pick you trading that for James Wiseman to pair Wiseman with Zion, I'm not so sure with the Kings at number nine,

maybe the Kings would take them. The Kings could make sense at number nine, Orlando at eight. I'm not sure what the amount of bigs that they have right there. So maybe number nine at Sacramento. What about OKC at six? I would make a little bit more sense considering that team is kind of rudderless and it's just like Sam,

I was about to call him Sam Hinkie. Might as well now. Sam Hinkie Presti. Because Sam Presti is kind of like, yo, we're, we're taking as many bites at the Apple or we hope to be the next disgruntled superstar destination. you know i'd

be careful about this asset um orgy that we're doing with the with the okc thunder too because i remember when that brooklyn trade happened for boston it was like assets assets assets assets assets assets assets assets and then what does it turn into? Brad Stevens getting forced out as coach, although he got promoted. And, you know, Brooklyn's a better team now than you. They went to three out of four recent conference finals. They have two of the best players under 25 years old. Oh, yeah?

Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. Thank you, KOC. Yeah. They got their coach fired. Here's the thing. I've been living in Boston this whole past year and like, it was a nightmare season

for the Celtics, but they still have Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. Period. Simmons, Orlando. Orlando has the fifth pick and the eighth pick,

which in my mind means they have a pick to spare. Is the fifth pick for Ben Simmons a ridiculous trade? For Orlando? Probably for Philly that's a ridiculous trade. Yeah.

Maybe if they had Mo Bamba into that. I was going to say, Ben Simmons and Orlando, there's dissonance there. You assume Jonathan Isaac gets back and I just don't know if that's the place for him. The reason I bring that up is if I'm Philly and I don't like any of the possibilities I have and Orlando's like, we will take Ben Simmons. He's, he's a huge asset. We'll take his contract and trade you the fifth pick. We can actually absorb his contract because I think they're way under the cap. And then if you're Philly,

you get rid of the contract, you get a huge trade exception, you have a fifth pick, and then you have the ability to use that fifth pick to go get what you want. So it's almost like a two-step trade. How about five and eight? Five and eight for Simmons. Yeah. So it'd have to almost be Simmons.

Is that not enough? That feels like too much. It's kind of hard to figure out Ben Simmons' value, isn't it? I don't think it's too much. I don't think it's too much. I don't think it's too much because Ben Simmons has already made three all-star games, right? Like, Ben Simmons is still going to be a great defensive commodity. Theoretically, he's some great playmaker. I keep hearing people talk about Ben Simmons' playmaking.

I'm like, okay. All right. We'll see at the next destination if this bears out. They keep saying the fit is clunky and, you know, he needs to play around more spacing and shooting, which doesn't exist in Orlando and never has. We'll see, right? But, like, Ben Simmons is a three-time All-Star.

You know, he's going to make all defensive teams going forward. Five and eight probably isn't even enough for him, if we're being honest, for the production that he's going to give you. And, you know, specifically if you are... That's an amazing trade for Philly. I would do that right now if I was Philly. If I get five and eight for Ben Simmons, I'm doing it. But they want to win.

Like, you get two rookies, I guess. If you want to flip those picks into something that you think is valuable. Yeah, assets. Well, they're not going to win with Ben Simmons. They can't play him in the last six minutes of a playoff game. I think part of the problem when people evaluate Simmons is there's two Ben Simmonses, right? There is a fast-paced up-and-down game Ben Simmons,

which he looks awesome in. And then there's what happens in the playoffs when it slows down and he turns into, he's dribbling over half court, hands it to somebody and kind of wanders over into the corner and isn't seen again. And I didn't even know this when we did the podcast on Sunday, but the stat of the three shots in seven fourth quarters, three shots total is one of the most damning, terrible stats of all time. And it actually made me feel way worse about Doc Rivers. I was trying not to do blame Doc Rivers too much, but man, you look back at that series now and you think like you, you have to tell that guy after game five, if you don't shoot, I'm not going to

play you in the last nine minutes. I just can't, I can't afford to have you out there. If you, if we're going four and five, like, sorry, I know you make 30 million in a year. to have you out there if we're going four on five. Sorry, I know you make $30 million in a year. I know you're represented by Clutch. We're trying to win the title. You can't do it. So he didn't and I think that's how it got them in the conundrum. But five and eight for Simmons

and Maxie? Starting to get a little more fair. If I'm Philly, I honestly want a bit more there i mean like i've been i've been the dude for five years now saying ben simmons shoots with the wrong hand and needs to switch but you got to give it to the guy for turning into the defensive player that he has like was said and the the playmaking in the open court is sensational in the half court if he has the right pieces around him i think there's a lot of ways you can get him going like you mentioned

earlier before the lottery happened was that he's not Draymond Green on defense. He's not defending like a Jokic down low. And you're right about that. But on offense, I really believe Simmons can be a supercharged version of Draymond Green screening and rolling and dunking and making plays off the dribble for teammates. Like he's got to have a point guard who can do that for him. So if that happens in Philly, wonderful. If it happens somewhere else, I hope we see him in that role. And that's regardless of whether or not he ever switches hands or figures out how to become an average shooter. If that alone happens, I really think it would add some value to Ben Simmons in the half court and be able to activate some of that playmaking that right now just doesn't exist because he's

just standing in the corner doing nothing. Was would Portland trade McCollum for five and eight? They would. Hell yeah. Right. So we're trying to trade Simmons for McCollum. So then why isn't Simmons worth five? Like I'm trying, I'm trying to do a thought process because,

because a lot of people would say that McCollum is nowhere near enough compensation for Ben Simmons. Cause McCollum is a very limited player in his own when you consider his size in the backcourt. And he scores. Yes, he's a great scorer, but he's not really proficient at anything else. Not to say that the type of scoring that he provides for you. And he's 29. Not to say that he would have obviously helped them way more than Ben Simmons did in this Hawks series.

That goes without saying. But these players happen within a context, right? Like these players don't exist in a vacuum. So Ben Simmons, yes, in this context, he looked like a pumpkin. But I think in another context, he could look like somebody who actually matters in this league again. Because he has in the past. Like, what times when Joel didn't play? How about, I know Houston and Philly will never trade with each other,

but Ben Simmons for the two-pick would be interesting too. Where Philly gets Mobley back, Houston gets a star, the whole thing. I wouldn't do that if I was Houston. Just for the record. To me, Mobley and Cunningham, I'm not moving off either. Well, they didn't want Ben Simmons for a dude who was

partying with rappers while he was supposed to be at training camp. I know. But I felt like they just didn't want to trade hard into Philly. They didn't want to give him that. They didn't want to give Daryl that. And they kind of moved it the other way. So Orlando 5-8, they get to rebuild.

OKC will stay at 6. And then, you know, Toronto would be the only possible trade maybe there with the four pick if they wanted to get good right away. I don't know what... What would be a Toronto trade with the four pick, KOC? I mean, maybe if it's not Simmons, uh, maybe we're talking about a bill becomes available and you're putting more on the table with that pick. Uh, then we're talking, you know,

another young player in there, but wouldn't that have to be Beal and Siakam, which Beal's and Siakam and the four, and then it's like Beals in the same crappy situation he was in. It's tough there. And like, again, like I've mentioned the trade down idea. I love trade down so much. I think OKC, they're another trade up candidate here. They're at number six. They have 18.

They have, what is it? 36 first round picks for Sam Hickey Presti was, right? So, I mean, OKC can put together as many picks as they want to and be like, hey, we'd love to move up to number three or maybe even number two. I don't see why not. Oh, that would be interesting for Cleveland, right? If they could just drop from three to six

and they get some Sam Presti treasure chest stuff, that could work. Cleveland at three, I don't see them staying there for some reason. There are better fits for Cleveland at six. There was one earlier,

there was a possible trade situation that I thought could be interesting. Do you think Charlotte could use the glut of like big forwards, big defensive forwards in this draft

and potentially use that pick to take a forward and then use like, say, PJ.J. Washington to address some of the needs that they have to sort of move them along. What do y'all think about that?

A player trade. I'm into that. Yeah, because there are some guys, defensive guys like Garuba, and then obviously my guy Barnes. Kaminga's obviously not going to fall back there, but just spitballing here. I think that they could address some of their needs if they flip that.

I don't know. Waz, multiple people in the chat are suggesting Buddy Heal the number nine for Simmons. No? I need more. Waz is just shaking his head sadly. No, no, I need more because, I need more because, again,

once I open this Simmons thing up to a bidding war, I'm getting more than that. Yeah. 100% I'm getting more than that because at the end of the day, this is a talent acquisition business, and people are talking tough and spreading all kinds of negative chatter about Simmons right now, and I think it's in teams' best interest to be doing that in the media behind the scenes.

Like, oh, no way, I'm trading for him now, and blah, blah, blah. That's like setting the market for a guy that everybody understands is immensely talented. And teams, no matter what they say, they're going to go with talent every single time. So I think Buddy Heald, a guy who the Kings kind of don't even want anymore.

They feel like they overpaid for him. I don't think he's enough. Although, again, another guy who the Kings kind of don't even want anymore. They feel like they overpaid for him. I don't think he's enough. Although, again, another guy who shoots it, and I think it would help Philadelphia. I think Darryl Morey is going to want more than that. I think McCollum and Buddy both aren't table setters. I think that you would run into the same kind of thing you have with Seth. You need people that lean playmaking more. I was thinking maybe...

If they find a way to get Kyle Lowry in there, like all of this McConnell stuff and Buddy Hill stuff, that starts to make all the more sense because you have an adult in the room orchestrating an offense for you. And I'm just one of the biggest Kyle Lowry

fans out there. A couple of people in the green room chat are saying Presti's going to go all in for Cade, which would require trading up the number one pick. That would be fascinating. So what does that look like? So basically telling Detroit, we'll flip you six for one,

and we'll also give you blank, blank, blank, and blank. And OKC, like the whole thing is what's the point of having all these picks? Like you can't, the Celtics were in, you know, the, uh, the, the very, very poor man situation of this, where they had all these picks from like 12 to 22 and just year after year, two, three guys. And it's like, this sucks. I would much rather have Austin Rivers than... Bill, I wish we could live in a world where OKC had to make all of these picks. I wish that was possible. I freaking wish it was possible.

So they could basically trade for 150 cents on the dollar and just overwhelm Detroit with some crazy offer. And if you're Detroit, you're still picking six. What if it's not six? What if it's a three-way trade and you have Detroit move to three for Cleveland's spot, and then Cleveland moves down to the sixth spot?

That way, at three, Detroit could still get Jalen Suggs, still get their playmaker to pair with Killian Hayes. You just make it rain picks after that. Yeah, just a whole bunch of picks going everywhere. Wait, let's talk this out. I like this. So OKC has to flip spots with Cleveland, six and three.

Yeah. And they throw in something else good. They give them the 18th pick. They give them one of their future firsts. There you go. Knock yourself out with that. Now they're at three. And then they can really put the hard press on Detroit

does it matter that Cade Cunningham where he went to college if you're OKC like I never understand with some parts of the country it doesn't right it might matter it might matter to the people in the prairie Bill I've been told that they have different

value sets than the rest of us do so that might matter to those folks down in prairie country in oklahoma uh i don't know mate it's it's certainly not a bad it's ho it's hokey as hell i mean get the hell out of here it might it might matter to the fans but it shouldn't matter to the front it's sitting at it at all now when you get a talent like that, you take it. That's why I just don't think you make all these moves to get an opportunity to take a player like Cade, who can be an all-star, I think. He can be an all-NBA type guy. Talk me through Cade and Shea.

It works. Together as a backboard. That's pretty nice. I mean, they're going to shoot up the league past rankings. I can tell you that. I mean, they can absolutely play they're going to shoot up the league past rankings I can tell you that I mean like they can absolutely play together they balance each other but that's the thing about Cade is like he fits in these three guard lineups

people underrate him too as a defender like I think that in they have enough just kind of like wild like he's going to make Poku better I don't know I think it's if they were going to make a trade like KOC suggested I mean you could also throw in like Baisley and

Tao Maladon that could be interesting I personally wouldn't do it though just ultimately because I think Cade is just such a special floor raising talent I think that you you wait to get

players like this if you're Detroit I would why would you pass that up? I wouldn't come off the pick if I were them I would I'm always for just grab the guy if I were them. I would.

I'm always for just grab the guy. But I do think this is a unique situation with OKC where they could overwhelm somebody and really make them think. And if you're Detroit, what are your assets? Your assets are Jeremy Grant, maybe Killian Hayes, maybe Isaiah Stewart.

What else? What am I missing? Your own picks. And your own picks. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really it. Not much Not much else Alright, so before we go Waz, I think we learned

over everything else that maybe don't trade D'Angelo Russell Don't trade for D'Angelo For D'Angelo Russell with a future top three protected pick that maybe don't do that Or maybe don't do that. Or maybe don't twist your franchise

in knots to accommodate a dude who's never even gotten you an eighth seed ever in his life. Once. I think we also learned that when your best star quits on you, it's better off trading

him and then completely tanking the season. And now if you're Houston, you end up with the second pick in the draft for this weird Harden season, 72-game year. He didn't want to be there anymore. I still didn't like the trade they made, but you could argue, considering they kept the pick, it worked out.

And it's important to say, Bill, all the hammering we all did about it was nasty what Harden did in the beginning of the season to get himself out of Houston, but Harden staying there, if they just played hardball and kept him there, and what is happening to the team right now, this is a better outcome

for them. Period. I still think, Kyle, you agree that it's just more fun if Harden got traded to Philly. I think this whole season's more fun. Oh, my God. I can't imagine. It's so much more fun.

Yeah, it would solve all their problems, and it would have elevated them. I mean, it would be hard to pick against them, honestly, if you think about what they would be both ways. Yeah, I wish that it happened. Maybe it would have rejuvenated Ben Simmons. Who knows? So then they could have had two guys hurt instead of one. Man, KOC.

I thought Waz was the party pooper. Negative Nancy. Before we go, we have Hawks-Bucks Eastern Conference Finals. Kind of a surprising combo. Go ahead. Let's hear it, Waz. The Hawks are going to the finals. I'm already on the record. Let's hear it, Wes. The Hawks are going to the finals.

They're going to the finals. They're going to the finals. Like, you guys watched that Bucs offense, the same one that I did, and nobody thought Brooklyn was a competent defensive team all year long until they magically ran into a Bucs playoff offense. Voila!

They're competent at defense. And I think the Hawks offense is more dynamic, more sophisticated than what just KD and Harden on one leg could offer as far as what they could do, you know, against the Bucs defense. So I think they're going to get stops. And I think Trey Young is going to carry the day and they're going to go to the finals because the Bucs half-court offense has been putrid for the whole playoffs.

That would be an unbelievable turn of events. I want to talk myself into it so badly. I won money on Atlanta in round two. I had a Bucs-Hawks parlay. The Bogdanovich piece, I can't wrap my head around. If you're telling me he was healthy,

I'd actually be all in on the Hawks' upset pick. But not only is he not healthy, it doesn't seem like there's light at the end of the tunnel with that one. Then they lose Hunter too. It just feels like... But Bill, hold on, hold on, Bill. They want to play their nonsense drop coverage

all freaking game. Trae Young is the best floater in all of basketball. That shot is going to be wide open for him. Basically all series long because of the way Milwaukee wants to guard everybody because they insist on playing Brooke Lopez 50 minutes a game. I just like the matchup for the Hawks. I really do. What do you think, KFC?

I think the Bucs are going to win this, but it's definitely going to be competitive to Waz's point. Like, this Hawks team is no joke. The Bogdanovich injury hurts them a lot, and I'd give them a better chance if they had that. But, you know, I think the Bucs are going to win this series maybe in five or six. They just have more overall talent.

Giannis can be unbelievable in this matchup. And for the Milwaukee Bucs, I hope we see them make some tweaks to what they're doing on defense laws. I mean, if it's going to happen, this is a series to do it for sure. It's like a broken clock with these cats, man. What do you think, Kyle?

I think a few things. A, imagine Bogdan Bogdanovich on the Milwaukee Bucks. I think about that all the time. I think also about the fact that the Bucs are going to punish them in some ways that Philly wasn't able to consistently. I think Giannis, Bill, I remember I told you I thought that Giannis would average 40 against the Nets. I think he's going to give them a lot of problems in that sense.

C, I think that the Bucs are not getting enough credit for, they did figure some stuff out in regulation in that Game 7 against the Nets. They started to run some things and get into a rhythm that worked. I mean, it wasn't fluid and firing on all cylinders, but they did get some stuff going. But I also agree with KLC. I think it's going to be a close competitive series, but I'm still going to go with the Bucs.

I was shocked by how easily Giannis was creating stuff on the left block. And then more shocked that Bud just wasn't going to it every time. Because it seemed like that was the first time I was really like, wow, this is actually unstoppable. He's either drop stepping and getting a layup or a dunk. He's going into the paint and doing a jump hook. Or they have to double team him and he's finding somebody. And then they would run the next play for

like Chris Middleton into two guys and you'd be like, what happened to the Giannis play that just got you another layup? Maybe he was too tired. I don't know. I do like Okongwu whose name I'll never be able to say. I'm sorry. It's my... You just said it.

That's good. That was exactly right. Speech dyslexia. I was really impressed by him in round two. And I do feel like they have dudes to throw at Giannis. Like it's not going to be a walk in the park for him against, against the Hawks. I'm way more worried about the perimeter stuff with the Hawks. If Bogdanovich can't do stuff. Cause I do think that that was the biggest reason that series kept going

even before he got hurt. It's just so nice to have the two ball handers. I don't trust Lou Williams. I still think he's one of the worst playoff players of my lifetime. Maybe he has a chance to flip that. Worse than Dexter Pittman? Wow.

What happens for an Atlanta-Los Angeles final? Oh, man. I mean, just from off the court. What is America capable of with Atlanta-Los Angeles? We're going to have to talk about COVID NBA finals travel restrictions off Mike

Bill Simmons if that's the case. Listen now. We're going to have to get into that if we get that somehow. That's a media dream right there, bro. You get to go back and forth between Atlanta and Los Angeles. You know what's crazy? The clips. Home court goes through the clips now.

Right? Isn't that what it is? Like, no matter what happens, if they win, if they can beat Phoenix, I think home court goes through the West. Did they finish with a better record than the Bucs? I think they did. Wow. Isn't that what it is? Like no matter what happens, if they win, if they can beat Phoenix, I think home court goes through the record than the bucks. I think they did. Wow. Is that,

isn't that true? Yeah. Am I crazy? The Clippers were 47 and 25. The bucks were 46 and 26. Yeah. So the West is going to host one, two,

five and seven. So obviously I'm rooting for the clips. Cause the finals will be, uh, right where we are. All right. Hey, this was really fun.

Um, what an action packed lottery. I was, I. Hey, this was really fun. What an action-packed lottery. I actually got discombobulated. Teams were jumping. They were flying around. Waz, Kyle, KOC, great to see you. Thanks to everybody on Greenroom and on Twitter and on YouTube. You can hear the full episode

on my podcast much later tonight. And we will see you next time. All right. That's it for the podcast. We have one more coming on Thursday. Thanks to house and was, and KOC and Kyle. Thanks to Def Kyle,

the producer of this podcast, Kyle Creighton. See you on Thursday. I don't want to see them on the wayside Never once said I don't have feelings with them On the wayside On the wayside Never once said I don't have feelings with them