The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Best NBA Player Belt, Part 1: Post-Giannis Collapse With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Episode Date: April 28, 2023In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre to discuss the Bucks' collapse in Round 1. They then talk about how the Best NBA Player Championshi...p Belt is currently up for grabs and who'll be eligible to grab it during the postseason! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript
Discussion (0)
you'll listen to part one of a two-part thursday sports extravaganza it's all next
it's the bill simmons podcast presented by fanduel football is in full action fanduel's highest rated
sports book is the best place to bet at all we've been doing pretty well a million dollar picks this
year i love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season
thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think
Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks,
and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel,
like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate,
offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff, it's crazy.
The app is safe and secure and easy to use.
And when you win, you'll get paid instantly.
Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season.
Here's what you have to do.
Visit fanduel.com slash BS
to download America's number one sports book.
The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming.
Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the
resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details.
You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler
or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a
big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I
was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us.
Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here,
you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're
standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious.
You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel
tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else
you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time.
Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like.
90 calories per 355 mil can.
So why not grab some Miller Lites today?
Your game time tastes like Miller time.
Must be legal drinking age.
We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network,
where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday, Sudden Death, the Van Damme classic. Me and Kyle
Brandt did that one. Sunday night, 7.05 PT, 10.05 ET, right after Succession ends, episode six
on the Prestige TV podcast. Sean Fantasy, Joanne Robinson, I'll be breaking down episode six of
Succession.
Also, if you want more draft coverage
than what we're going to be giving you
in part two of this podcast with Shil Kapadia,
you can listen to the Ringer NFL Draft Show podcast.
You can listen to the Ringer NFL Show,
both of those going up late tonight,
and then Ryan Rossella tomorrow.
So we have you covered on the NFL Draft.
On this one, part one,
it's something I taped on Thursday afternoon
because I was so dumbfounded
by the Bucs Heat Series
and all of the storylines from that,
all the best player storylines.
What do we think about Giannis going forward?
Jimmy Butler?
Who's going to be the best player in the league?
The new wearer of the championship belt?
A thing that we've talked about so many times
on this podcast,
but I really do care about it. Also, what went wrong for the Bucs? Is it fixable? Rob Mahoney, Big Waz, Waz
and Lambert and I, we just broke it down. We deep dove it to the point that we decided to split this
up into two parts. So this is part one. Great discussion. Can't wait for you to listen to it.
Part two coming up a little bit later tonight, NFL draft and then Hawks Celtics reaction.
So stay tuned for that.
This is part one.
I think we need our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast before Hawks-Celtics game six.
So just wanted to get that out there in case Jason Tatum has 70 points
because that would be relevant for the conversation we're about to have.
Bucs heat happened last night.
The heat knocked out the Bucs.
Big Waz, Rob Mahoney,
you guys did a podcast right after. And then Giannis at this press conference that you didn't know about during the podcast that became a talking point today. And it got me thinking about
a lot of big picture stuff, a lot of legacy stuff. He was basically saying,
we lost. It happens. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Michael Jordan won six titles. He lost
nine seasons. Were those nine seasons failure? It turned into this whole everybody talking,
which is kind of in the air this week because we had that first take segment with JJ Redick
and Stephen A. Smith where Stephen A. is like, the Clippers should convince him to retire.
And JJ got mad and talked about how hard it is to come back. So I'm always careful about
how hard to go on players when they say stuff like,
this wasn't a failure. I don't want to hear about failures. Guys, that was one of the biggest
failures in NBA playoff history. And I have big questions coming out of it about Giannis,
who for the last half decade was the best player in the league, give or take a couple months here
or there. But if you're going to say who had the best five-year stretch, it was Giannis. I think we went into the playoffs thinking he was the best player in the league, give or take a couple months here or there. But if you're going to say who had the best five-year stretch,
it was Giannis.
I think we went into the playoffs thinking
he was the best player in the league,
best two-way guy,
most reliable night-to-night force.
He did get hurt during the series,
but he did seem pretty healthy the last two games.
I feel like the championship belt
is now available.
The best player championship belt
is now levitating above the ring
like a money in the bank match
for these next three rounds.
So we'll start with Giannis
and then we'll go into the contenders.
Rob, from what you saw from Giannis
in this series and this season,
do you think he's the best player
in the league anymore?
Yeah, this isn't the best day
to make that argument, but I do. I still think he's the
best player in the world. I think the reason we have these conversations, though, is because right
now, the NBA is not a first, second, third definitive podium of best players. It's kind
of a platform. It's kind of a stage. And there's guys who are going to rotate around, maybe five
guys in that group who are on kind of equal footing, and
they don't outrank each other so much as they just
revolve around one another. And so this was
clearly not Giannis' time.
Had some great moments in the series, had some
disastrous moments in the series. It was also
just absent for part of it.
Great players lose sometimes.
I'm with him in the sense that
this is clearly a letdown.
Is this a colossal failure
that should change the shape of his career?
I don't know, man.
Sometimes great players lose series.
I see this as more of a collective issue for the Bucs.
Something that goes well beyond Giannis
than like, this is the definitive argument
that he's not the best player in the league anymore.
I just don't see that.
All right, I have some thoughts on that.
But Waz, you go. What's your take? I hear everything Rob just said. All right, I have some thoughts on that, but Waz, you go.
What's your take?
I hear everything Rob just said.
However, if Giannis played the way that he played,
say, last year in this series, they win, right?
He did not play like the best player
in the league in this series.
He made, I think, a total of two jump shots
away from, two jump shots, literally,
out of like 24, a weight of not three feet not within three feet of the basket the entire series.
He was not as impactful defensively.
I think that's sort of the theory of Giannis as best player in the league
is that on defense, he's probably a top five defender.
He was not in that series.
If you go back and look at what he was doing to Boston last year,
where dudes wouldn't even look at the freaking rim when Giannis was on the floor, that just was not in that series. If you go back and look at what he was doing to Boston last year, where dudes wouldn't even look at the freaking rim when Giannis was on the floor,
that just was not the case in this series.
The free throws have to matter.
It's way worse than it's ever been for him.
And, you know, he just, to the point, not only is he missing them at a terrible rate,
it's compounded by the fact he's throwing the ball all around the place at the end of the game
because he's so petrified of going to the line in a big moment i think you gotta sort of
strip it away from him because he did not play his best in a series that his team needed absolutely
needed him to be the best player in the world in order to win which is kind of crazy to say
i'm really proud of us this is the most ESPN conversation I've had in a while.
So I'm really excited to be having it. I think the key point for me is all season. And this is
why I ultimately couldn't get there with MVP for him on top of the durability stuff. Cause he missed
19 games. I just didn't think offensively he was as good and the stats backed it up. And I even
talked about this a few weeks ago. Um, but I'm just going to do it again really quickly. Within three feet, he shot 75, 74, 75%, right?
He's, he's Shaq around the rim. There's no question. But from three to 10 feet in two,
that in the 2021 season, he was 40%. And last year is 42%. year it was 35%. Then you go 10 to 16 feet, 35%.
Then you go 16 to the three point line, 35%. Then you go three point shooting, 27.5%.
So basically from four feet and out, he was like a 31% shooter this year. And that was not the case.
And you think back to the finals when he laid it on
the Suns. Part of how he laid it on the Suns, he made big free throws in big pressure spots.
And he did make that little elbow jumper. He made a couple of threes. That's fluky. Those
always came and went. But he wasn't afraid to shoot from 15, 16 feet and he wasn't afraid to
get fouled. And what changed for me in this series and really the whole season, the thing I noticed is that it was over and over again, him just trying to get as close to the basket as he
could versus the defense being like, take that 15 footer in the past. He took it. And this year he
didn't. And you look at the last two close games that the Bucks lost, they blew leads and their
offense fell apart. Why did it fall apart? They missed easy shots.
Game four, they missed a shit, you know,
little jump hooks, little layups, wide open threes.
Then this last game, it got worse where the point,
everyone looks scared to shoot.
So Rob, do you think he's the same guy he was offensively two years ago?
Because I don't think he is.
Yeah, and to Waz's point,
I think this is where it rings true.
He was not the player he needed to be
in this series for them to win.
But just think about that on its face, right?
In this elimination game,
Giannis has 38 and 20.
Right.
And we're sitting here saying, like,
he did not play up to his standard.
It's not enough.
Because his standard is the best player in the league.
Right?
That is what we have come to expect from him
in these moments,
to be exactly that dominant. But
Giannis said this at the beginning
of this season. He was
asked if he thinks he is the best player in the
league then. And what he said was,
Steph is the best player in the league. Because the best player
is the last guy standing. The guy who takes his
team, who gets through these moments.
So I think Giannis would be the first to tell you
that after this kind of series,
he needs to hand the belt off to somebody else
do we all have to think that?
do we all have to agree with it?
do we all have to pile on at this particular moment?
no, but I think there's ways to watch
come on
he's still great, he's still Giannis
Rob, Rob, this is bad
and the reason why is like
we gotta compare him to his peers and his peers to me are the LeBrons,
the staffs,
the great,
the greatest players of this time.
Right?
Like the people who have won the proverbial belt,
I would go backwards to magic and bird and people like that.
Like he is now levitating with all those guys.
Fair.
A hundred percent.
And to lose in the first round in five games, this wasn't like a five game.
2-18 is brutal.
It's brutal.
2-18 seed.
This is bad.
And some of it is the hubris of being like, these aren't do or die games.
Giannis can miss a couple of games.
It's completely fine.
That was, I don't know why they rested on their laurels with that one.
And just again, like, in this game,
Giannis just wasn't good enough. Some of their
worst possessions was Giannis
starting the ball, dribble, dribble,
dribble, 22 feet out,
and those possessions going absolutely
nowhere and having no chances.
And what I like about people like, say,
KD or
people like, say, Steph is,
no matter what, I can just inbound the ball to that guy
and something good is going to happen
at some point. But that's
where he was in 2021 and I
even felt last year
the reason they lost to Boston
had nothing to do with him.
There was this Grayson
Allen kind of bench thing where
they didn't have enough guys stepped up in
Boston's depth.
And the fact that they had game seven at home,
um,
and Grant Williams had all those threes.
This year was different.
Those two Miami games were among like the great choke jobs in the playoffs of
this century.
And to me,
this team,
whether he wants to admit it or not,
at this point,
that team goes down historically with some
of the great flame outs we've had. The 94 Nuggets beating the Sonics, the 07 Warriors beating the
Mavs, just these shocking results. The 84 Nets beating the Sixers. Even the 86 Lakers losing to
the Rockets, even though that was the conference finals. Same kind of thing where it was like, whoa, wait, this might be happening.
Now it's too crazy.
Can't believe it.
And then all of a sudden, Samson's making that crazy shot, a lot like what the Jimmy
Butler game time shot looked like in game five.
I think that it was a complete collapse of coaching, of guys just not seeming to want the ball. When Giannis got that tip
and he just flung it toward Middleton because he didn't want to get fouled,
what happened the last eight seconds when Giannis had the ball and it wasn't there,
and then it was basically a hot potato. And it was Grayson Allen just dribbling out the clock.
This is historic shit that I feel like I'm going to remember 30 years
from now. Whoa, remember the Bucs
when Jimmy Butler
just snatched their heart out? Butler,
Wes, have you ever seen an NBA player
in a playoff game talk more shit than Butler
talked to Drew Holiday? Oh my God.
Ever? He was waving his
fingers at him, pointing at him.
He was screaming every
single possession,
every single timeout.
He's yelling in his direction because, of course,
Drew Holiday has this reputation as the best defender,
you know, perimeter guy in the league.
And Jimmy Butler's making mincemeat of that dude.
And again, Jimmy was way better than Giannis in this game.
He was.
I don't think that can be overstated. He was just a much better player.
He's guarding Giannis.
He's guarding Lopez.
He's like, put anybody.
I'll guard anybody out here.
And then he's eviscerating every single matchup to the point where Bud is like,
all right, let's put Giannis on a dude that's spacing out to three
and Kevin Love instead of Jimmy Butler or Bam Adebayo.
That was terrible.
All the action is centeredo. That was terrible. All the action is centered around.
That was terrible.
It's bad.
It's bad.
I don't want to be too hard on the dude.
I don't want to go full first take here.
But I do think you have to question, like,
when you watch Steph,
he's 2 of 10 last night, still drops 30.
Still getting eight assists.
Still the fulcrum of everything that they're doing on that end.
And Giannis, that just wasn't the case.
Well, regardless, I mean, what's inarguable,
Jimmy Butler ripped out the Bucs still beating Hart, right?
And if there was a belt to take, he took it.
Yeah.
Which, you know, I'm going to do something that's a little dangerous
with exercises like this, which is I'm going to try to understand
the rules of what the championship
belt is and represents. Do you
need to beat the guy with the belt to
take the belt? Is there like a chain of custody with this
thing?
Rob, great question.
Bill's ready. I spelled
it out. I have the belt.
I'm just going backwards
from 2022 or
23 to 1971.
Giannis had it, right?
Basically for the last four years,
even though Curry won the title,
I still feel like people left that season like,
Curry, amazing, one of the best ever.
But Giannis, if you just gave him 11 crappy teammates,
he's still probably the best part.
It was one of the two of them.
It was Kawhi in 2019, had it for a few
months. LeBron basically
had it during those last
couple Cleveland years from winning one in
2016 all the way through that crazy
2018 series.
Curry had it before for like a year,
but it was kind of like it was almost a vacated belt.
It was like when Roman Reigns got sick.
It was like, wait, I guess Curry has the belt,
but are we sure he's the champ?
Before that, it was LeBron.
Dirk had it for a year in 2011.
Kobe had it for three to four years.
Duncan had it for basically the mid-2000s.
Shaq had it 00, 01, 02.
99 was vacant because of the lockout.
MJ had it those last three years.
Hakeem for two, MJ for three.
Magic for four. MJ for three,
Magic for four, Bird for a bunch of years, probably four. Moses, he had it for a couple.
Kareem, then it's like Kareem, Walt, and Kareem going backwards. Julius, ABA, Kareem in the NBA,
Wilt, 1972, and then Kareem. Oh, wow. You're giving Wilt a belt touch here? Wilt in 72 demolished everybody in the playoffs.
So my point is you kind of knew who the guy was.
And usually it revolved around,
did you win the title or did you almost win the title?
And there are some exceptions.
Like the 2014 playoffs, the Spurs win.
You're not going to say like, oh, Kawhi has the belt now.
He didn't.
It was LeBron was still the best player in the league.
Last year, Curry won,
but I still think there was a really good
Curry-Yannis argument.
Now we go to this year.
I think whoever is left standing has the belt.
So I'm going to give you four candidates
and then three honorable mentions.
First one, Jokic.
So let's talk about him. This is set up for Jokic now.
You could say he was the best regular season player of the last three years.
He's had a couple of playoff moments, but nothing substantial and deep.
He had a dog shit team last year, really bad luck with the Murray injury. But now it's set up.
They're the one seed. They have this Phoenix team that
still looks a little discombobulated.
Chance to play either the Warriors
or the Lakers. They're going to have home court at least
until the finals
if they keep going.
And Jokic is the day-to-day
most impactful offensive player in the league.
I think we can all agree on that, right?
Yeah. I would say. On board.
Their imprint, day after day. Him and Steph are the agree on that, right? Yeah. Who puts their imprint day after day?
Him and Steph are the
conversation as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, where you're never going to
veer off course too much if
you have one of those guys. So Rob, are you prepared
to live in a world where Jokic
is the best player in the league
in seven weeks? Absolutely.
I'm also prepared to live in a world where he
gets cooked defensively in a way where
we can't even really make the argument that can where the conversation is now off the table it's
off the table so I mean both of those things can be true right I think what we saw from the first
round as if we needed more proof of it like he carved the timberwolves up right like pushed all
the right buttons made all the right plays and what we also learned from the first round is this Phoenix defense is
pretty carvable at the moment, right? Pretty vulnerable.
There's a lot to exploit. I cannot wait to see that matchup,
but the give and take of that is going to tell us a lot about where Jokic is
in this conversation.
Yeah. He's going to have his work cut out for him between what KD's doing
in pick and roll and what Devin Booker's doing right now.
Cause Devin Booker looks absolutely unconscious right now.
And so, yeah, Jokic, if Jokic finds a way to get to the finals this year,
he has as good an argument as anybody has ever had
because he's succeeding despite his weaknesses and the competition
because I'm not convinced that anybody but the Warriors
is coming out of that Sacramento Memphis Warriors group.
So he would have to beat the Lakers group.
So he would have to beat the Warriors.
He would have to beat KD, Book, Chris Paul in the second round to get to the finals.
Yeah, he would solidify his claim.
And it would show that his defensive shortcomings aren't so great that his team can't overcome it.
That's the thing, right?
It's not, do you have weaknesses as a player?
Like we like to pretend that some of the past grades
were perfect and had all kind of like watertight,
all around games.
It's do you win anyway, right?
Does it matter or can you overcome whatever it is
that's holding you back as a player?
Yeah, like every great player
has had some form of weakness, right?
Giannis didn't really want to get fouled
and Giannis was being left open from 15 feet
and he still made it work and won the title.
Curry had a lot of,
oh, Curry's six for 20 right now.
He'll have those games from time to time.
The boneheaded turnover.
Yeah, he called a timeout
with no timeouts left on Sunday.
It's like none of these guys are perfect
and you can pick them apart.
LeBron invented that whole pick and roll switch,
hunt the guy against Steph Curry.
Those are some of Steph's weaknesses for sure.
Yeah, and I've made this point before,
and it sounds like I'm making an excuse for Jokic,
but his one deficiency is just really glaring.
It's the equivalent of Giannis just being unable to shoot from 15 feet.
When Jokic is on an island and somebody goes by him, which, by the way, is pretty much the entire league at this point. It's not like LeBron is locking up people from 25 feet away either. But when somebody blows by Jokic, it looks 100 times worse. It's like, oh, my God, Jokic, Jesus. I never thought his defense was that bad. I never thought Curry's defense was that bad either.
Actually, I think Curry's a pretty good defensive player.
And the thing about Yoke, too, is that
the league is so pick-and-roll heavy,
and so when teams want to go
after him, it's like you're
watching it happen play after play after
play after play. It's like in slow motion.
There's a difference between being a
target and everyone knowing that you're
a target, right? It makes a world of difference.
The other interesting thing about Jokic
is just the putting the actual crown on
as the best guy in the league.
I don't think anybody has ever cared less
that has ever passed through these circles
and walked down the tunnel of like,
I wonder if people will now think
I'm the best guy in the league.
Even Giannis, who I think is among the most authentic stars we have in any sport.
He cares a little, right? He's competitive. You always hear him talking about other great
players and things he learns. He does care. He cares about it. And Jokic probably deep down
cares, but watching him throw away the MVP the last month of the season and just kind of sick
aims. And he was not like, oh, man, if I can get 50 tonight,
the conversation will sway back to me.
He just doesn't care.
I think he just wants to win.
Like, he's playing against Rudy and Cat,
and it doesn't feel personal for him.
No.
He's just going out and doing his job.
It doesn't feel like, you know what,
people used to compare me to Carl Anthony Townsend.
They think this guy was better than me.
I'm going to kick his butt.
He's just playing.
He is going out and kicking those guys' asses, but it doesn't feel personal when he's doing it.
Like, I remember the game when it was like two years ago.
Giannis was playing against the Lakers, and he kind of had a big play to end the game,
and he did the crown on his head, right?
Like, that was clearly a shot at LeBron.
Like I'm taking it personal when I play against you.
You will never see Jokic do something like that ever.
Yeah, what would have to happen for Jokic to give himself the crown?
Would he have to win the triple crown himself?
Like would he have to go into his second career?
We might have to see it, you know?
I feel like the crown would have had to belong to one of these Eastern Bloc guys
who he has a personal relationship with.
And then he would make it personal.
Yeah, some country versus country thing.
Or it's like in the in-season tournament
if the MVP gets an actual crown,
he'd be like, ah, fuck, I got to put this thing on.
All right, I want to hit the other candidates,
but let's take a quick break.
The NBA playoffs are here and they're rocking and you can turn crossovers
into cash with FanDuel. All you have to do is visit FanDuel.com slash BS right now. Place a
$5 bet and you'll get an instant 150 bucks back in bonus bets. Win or lose. Great bets on FanDuel.
We just did one on Wednesday night. We teamed together. Me, FanDuel. We did a boost. We did
Giannis double-double in game five. We We did Giannis double-double in game five.
We did LeBron double-double in game five.
Both had hit.
They boosted it to 200 plus 200.
Guess what?
It hit.
That's the kind of bet you'll find on Fando.
There's no better place to bet all the playoff action
than America's number one sportsbook.
Just go to Fando.com slash BS.
Sign up to get $150 in bonus bets
when you bet your first five bucks.
Fando is an official sports betting partner of the NBA. dot com slash BS. Sign up to get $150 in bonus bets when you pay your first five bucks. Fandle
is an official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus and present in select states.
First online real money wager only. $10 deposit required. Refund issues not withdrawalable bonus
bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See full terms at Fandle dot com slash sports book.
Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Hope is here. In Massachusetts, visit
gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24-7 support. In New York, call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY
or text HOPE-NY. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under agreement with
Kansas Star Casino LLC. In Colorado, Iowa, Michigan,
New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, or Virginia, call 1-800-GAMBLE or visit
Fandle.com slash RG. Call 1-800-NEXTSTEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona. In Connecticut,
call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat.
In Indiana, 1-800-9-WITH-IT.
In Kansas, 1-800-522-4700 or visit ksgamblinghelp.com.
Louisiana, 877-770-STOP.
In Maryland, visit mdgamblinghelp.org.
In Wyoming, 800-522-4700.
In West Virginia, visit 1800gambhelp.org. In Wyoming, 800-522-4700.
In West Virginia,
visit 1800gambler.net.
This episode is brought to you by Prime Video.
You know me,
I can't go a day without sports.
I really can't.
And now Monday nights
are all about hockey.
That's right.
There's a new exclusive home
for streaming Monday night NHL hockey.
And it's on Prime.
All season long,
watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal. And it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night
hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby,
the NHL's best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime.
This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.
Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,
he rocked that super soup strainer.
Grow a mustache for Movember.
You'll do great things too.
You won't win the Super Bowl,
but your fundraising will support mental health,
suicide prevention,
and prostate and testicular cancer research.
And if you don't want to grow a mustache,
you could still walk or run 60 kilometers,
host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up
now. Just search Movember. All right. Best part championship belt. We talked about Jokic. Let's
talk about Curry. So if you're just talking big picture, who has the most to gain from an actual championship run?
It's funny.
We have a lot of candidates for, wow, this would completely change how we think about this person historically.
Even LeBron.
If LeBron got his fifth, if LeBron won a title in year 20, that's just an amazing monkey wrench for how people discuss his career, him versus Jordan, all that stuff.
If you go down the line, it would affect everybody.
Curry beating LeBron and the Lakers,
assuming the Lakers win,
getting through Jokic in the next round,
where basically the offensive player
that levitates above the sport crown is on the line,
and then him winning again in the finals.
Then it's like, now we're talking about him
as one of the really great players ever.
Not like, oh, he's one of the like really great players ever not like oh
he's one of the 15 16 greats now i'd be like okay curry versus kobe curry is the best player of the
century like a whole different thing of of stuff comes out um then you think rob about all the
weird shit that happened with this team this year and how shitheads like me were doing podcasts
like less than a week ago about could they get swept
in round one by the Kings
and the resolve and the DNA of this team
and a little luck too.
Like if that Barnes wide open three goes in,
they're down 3-1.
I don't know what the series looks like.
But not only did they write the ship,
but it feels like he's the safest bet now,
would you say,
for just being awesome in a playoff series?
I would say he's replaced Giannis at least for that.
Yeah, I mean, he's going to show up for these games.
And most importantly,
his impact on his teammates
is going to show up for these games.
Like when you look at
some of these contests with the Kings,
these are close games all throughout.
They're kind of give and take.
But what do the Kings have
or what do the Warriors have that the Kings don't?
And it's championship experience.
Sure, it's like some defensive flexibility.
It's all that stuff.
But really, it's Steph.
And it's his shot making
and his gravity and his impact.
And there was this play,
this clip in game three
that made the rounds online.
Right before halftime of that game,
Steph missed a shot.
Looney got the offensive rebound
because, of course, he did. Kicked it back out to Steph. Steph hits like shot. Looney got the offensive rebound because of course he did. Kicked it
back out to Steph. Steph hits like a
back-breaking three. And someone
zoomed in on like every member of
the Kings bench when he hits that shot.
And the sheer look of
hopelessness captured on
their faces, the pure like,
what the fuck do we do with this guy
energy? That happened with the Celtics
in game four too. It's the same look.
That's the Steph case, right?
And there is not a more back-breaking play
in basketball right now than when Steph misses
and gets another shot to reload
because you just know how hopeless it is, right?
You cannot let him miss one shot
and give him another opportunity
because he will beat you.
Yeah, that's why to me,
it's going to be hard to mount a case
that's better than Steph's, in my humble opinion, right?
I think there are guys who can get to great levels.
Like, just for instance, Joel Embiid.
If he ever plays as good as he does in the regular season, in the playoffs, for once in his freaking career,
then you could be like, yo, man, this guy might be the best player in the league for real.
But Steph does that every single playoff.
And there's what he does to like this
people are despondent after he makes a big bucket but the panic he induces before the bucket even
goes in is just crazy and then somehow at 34 years old he's never been better as a one-on-one player
isolation player yeah where Davion Mitchell this guy is pit bull. He's a great at the point of attack
defender. Steph is blowing by this dude. He's finishing better than he ever did. It's yeah,
to me, Steph is the guy for me that like when I'm watching him, just like there's no way this guy's
going to miss a big shot. There's no way he's not going to make the right pass when they double and
triple team him. He's just unstoppable. Yeah. Russel and I talked on Sunday about whether Steph is better now
than he was during that crazy 2016 run.
Yeah, the thing that feels
just different and better,
first of all, is the legacy of
he's put together so many games now
that what Rob mentioned about
sucking the life out of the other team,
now there's like a real resume of,
oh shit. It's like the horror movie. It's like when you're Now there's like a real resume of, Oh shit.
It's like the horror movie.
It's like when you're watching scream six,
you're like,
Oh boy,
they got a phone call.
This is going to go badly.
And you just kind of know from the other screen movies.
The other thing with him that I just don't feel like he had in the same way
in 16 was how strong he is when he gets a split step on a guy now.
And he's riding the guy on his hip and he's just mastered sticking his,
his right arm out with the ball and bringing it back.
And it just feels like he only needs an inch now to score.
And I don't,
I don't really remember that in the same way in 2016.
I almost want to go back and watch some in 2016.
It felt way more jump shoddy,
fast break layup,
but not like this half court
get to the rim stuff
you can knock him off his square
very easily back in those days
easily rattled that was sort of the game plan
was to get in his airspace
crowd him rough him up
that was the thing rough Steph Curry up
can't do that anymore
he's unmovable now it's crazy
next guy my third of my four choices You can't do that anymore. No. He's unmovable now. It's crazy.
Next guy.
My third of my four choices.
I mean, it's on the table for Jimmy Butler, incredibly.
It is.
If he rips through the Knicks in round two in New York,
not having home court advantage in any round,
then he goes through, I would assume, the Celt Celtics and Tatum and Brown, the young bucks
and goes in there and does that.
And then in the last round,
you're getting Jokic or Curry or LeBron
or whoever you're going to throw at him, Durant.
And he just wins four straight rounds
doing this crazy alpha thing.
We would leave the season the same way
we left with Kawhi in 2019.
Like, hey, man, we have a new champ.
There we go.
And it's a wrap, right?
Yeah.
How are you feeling on zombie watch overall, Bill?
Like the prospect of the heat
and the Celtics potentially meeting
in the conference final.
Are you boarding up the windows?
Are you taking stock of the canned goods?
Where are you at?
I am like the old lady in one of those horror movies
that is just outside screaming to people on the street
that so-and-so is coming and nobody listens.
That was what I was like for six months.
Even I gave up though.
I can't take a full victory lap
because after that first playing game,
I'm like, I'm out.
The zombie heater no more.
Then they lose Hero.
What's crazy though is,
you know, they shot 45% from three in the series.
That's like zombie heat shit.
Like when you have Gabe Vincent
just pulling up from 28
in crunch time of a game,
just burying it.
Or that play in game four,
who's a Caleb Martin
when he had Giannis on him in the corner.
And he's like, oh, I can't shoot this.
Giannis is, no, I'm actually going to shoot corner. And he's like, oh, I can't shoot this. Giannis isn't... No, I'm actually
going to shoot it. And he just makes it.
Or you have Kevin Love, who was
given up for dead by Cleveland for reasons that
remain unclear. And now he's
putting up a 15-12 in an elimination
game. That's zombie stuff, Rob.
That's where you're like,
all right, this is just great coaching
and a really tough team.
I thought... Wow, I loved how Bam played yesterday too.
That was probably one of my favorite Bam performances.
Yeah, that adjustment that Spoh made where he's letting Bam orchestrate everything
so that he's taking Lopez out of the paint.
And Bam did a couple of things too where he made a couple of jump shots
so that when he dribbled towards Lopez, Lopez had to move up.
He couldn't just stay there. Right. He couldn't have the confidence that he couldn't make that shot.
And so Ben, with that, he had something like nine assists yesterday.
That was, you know, that was everything for them, especially in the fourth and overtime.
But, yeah, Jimmy Butler. And here's the thing. I'm talking to our guy, Verrier, watching this game.
And I'm like, what the hell are they doing? Why are they still in the dropped coverage?
Yeah.
Justin's like, hey, Bud likes math. This guy, Butler, shoots at the Mendoza line.
This is the right call in Bud's mind. I'm like, you can't do this.
You got to throw that out the window with Jimmy Butler. He shoots threes now.
Every playoff, he turns into a pull-up assassin.
He's in mid-range.
He's backdoor cutting you to death.
You can't stop him from getting to the rack.
Bro, you have to throw all of your stuff out the window.
You got to treat him like he's KD or something in the playoffs.
It's crazy.
But yeah, if he continues to play like this, he's playing as good, if not better than everybody.
Every single player in the NBA, which is crazy to say.
And he's one of the two momentum guys in the league now, the other being Steph,
where I don't know what it is, but when he gets going, you can feel it. The other team feels it.
The audience feels it. I've been in the room when it happens where you're like, oh no,
oh no, oh, I don't like the look in his eye. And he just gets happens where you're like, oh no, oh no, uh-oh.
I don't like the look in his eye.
And he just gets going.
He also like, you know, he missed that three at the end of game seven that he should have taken.
He missed a three yesterday where it was pretty clear
he should have just gone in the basket,
but that's part of whatever zone he's in now.
He thinks he can make everything.
He's not afraid of anything.
And his fearlessness would, it's a little reminiscent
of the Kawhi Toronto run for me. It doesn't totally make sense, but until somebody beats him,
I think he has to be in the mix. My fourth choice.
So I gave you Jokic, I gave you Curry, I gave you Butler. My fourth choice might surprise both of
you. Who do you think it is? Just from you Butler. My fourth choice might surprise both of you.
Who do you think it is?
Just from the setup.
My fourth choice will surprise both of you.
Who am I picking for my fourth guy?
If it's not KD, it's a surprise to me.
Could it be KD's teammate, Devin Booker?
Could you make a Devin Booker case?
It is Devin Booker.
Wow.
And it wasn't anything,
I wasn't fully prepared to go there until I went to the game on Saturday.
Marcel and I talked about it a little,
but I'll do it again.
I was so impressed by everything.
I was impressed by how he was carrying,
there's like a real alpha sense with him now in person.
The way he carries himself,
the way his teammates kind of respond to him
and play off him,
not just during the game,
but in the timeouts,
like him just screaming at DeAndre for 45 seconds,
how fucking hard he plays.
That was like as hard as I've seen anybody play in person,
except for maybe Giannis in the last couple of years,
where he was just like balls to the wall the whole time,
trying his ass off,
really pissed when Westbrook would beat him.
And,
and offensively he's got every shot now,
you know,
and the fact that KD has given him more space.
I just think like from a two guard total package standpoint of anybody
that's been in the league since Jordan,
from a traditional two guard,
the kind of two guard we,
we all grew up with that we're used to seeing.
He brings the most to the table.
And I could totally see him
putting together three more rounds like that
and us being like,
wow, Devin Booker's the best player in the league.
Didn't see that one coming.
But I'm flagging it now
because I do think it's in play.
Rob, your thoughts.
He was on my list too.
I think in part the idea that
is this kind of the run where he ascends
right where he hits such a ridiculous level of play like we've seen already and sustains it to
the point that he's kind of undeniable and he made that case against the clippers i thought you know
that was a series where the suns had a hard time just getting durant shots honestly like they were
trying to get him the ball he was being pushed pushed off his spots. It was hard to make clean catches.
And that's part of why, even
without Kawhi and Paul George, the Clippers
were constantly threatening to draw
out that series, to make it a slog,
to extend it.
Devin Booker had other ideas.
It was just a ruthless, efficient
showing, and I can't wait
to see how that stacks up against the Nuggets.
He also kind of spiritually fits this conversation. If we're talking about the idea of a belt
for the best player, he's going at your best defenders. He's going at whoever you throw into
him, the relentlessness of that, he is going to steal it from you. And that's, I think,
as much as anything, you know, not only the fact that he is matching Jimmy, like almost point for
point, really like stat for stat in the playoffs so far. He's logging to our points about his effort, as much total mileage as any
player in the playoffs to date. He just has the mentality of a guy who could take it.
And the respect of the other players too, dating back to like when KD was on my podcast in 2017
and identified him, which is another great thing about being the best or one of the best is
when the current great guys are like that guy, he's got something a little extra wise. Where do
you stand on Booker? I mean, I absolutely love Booker. He's, he's blown me away. Uh, you know,
every time Giannis doesn't, it doesn't, uh, achieve something. I think about the bag talk. How Giannis doesn't have a bag.
Devin Booker has five bags.
He is insane.
When Rob talks about the distance he's covering,
he's become a Reggie Miller type,
Ray Allen type, off the ball
when he's not dominating the ball.
And then when he needs to,
he's going to go at you.
He can go at you in isolation.
He's incredible,
incredibly crafty at pick and roll.
Spot up.
You cannot leave this man open even for a second.
It's crazy.
The mid-range, he's finishing.
Like, he is, it's beautiful to watch.
It's just KD, you know.
He's 6'10", and he's doing all the things that Booker does.
So it's like, for me, I'm always going to be gonna be like KD my mind just automatically defaults to KD but what we saw from Booker in the first five games of the playoffs um it's up there with with anybody I just think you know KD
has a longer track record of doing it and you know it's KD it's KD. It's KD. Well, we could say son TBD for that fourth spot.
But I think, you know, one good thing with Booker is that Dallas series was so embarrassing
last year and he wasn't very good in it either.
And maybe that's part of, he's also at the right time in his career, I think.
I think there's still a little chip on the shoulder with him because he doesn't get discussed
with these guys.
He got hurt this year, right when he was playing. He would have been
first team all NBA, no question, if he doesn't get hurt. So it's the right time of career for
him. It's chip on the shoulder. He's finally got a second guy who can space the floor for him and
help him out a little bit. Three more guys we just got to do quickly. Embiid.
It is sitting there, but I think all of us are dubious.
He's already hurt.
You got to show me.
I wasn't because we wanted to discuss Embiid.
Anything to add?
Because it really does get underrated how much worse Embiid has been in the playoffs his whole career.
He's played worse than his regular season output every single playoff his whole career.
That's what Ben Simmons was kind of trying to get at
on our guy JJ's podcast, where he's like,
you know, everybody's talking about me,
but, like, not everybody was just, you know,
Michael Jordan out there.
He was basically intimating, like,
it's not as if Joel was world-dominating,
you know, destroyer of everything.
He wasn't, and he hasn't been. Not once. Think about, you know, destroyer of everything. He wasn't.
And he hasn't been.
Not once.
Think about, you know,
even the Toronto series
at points last year.
A bunch of smart people
went into that thinking,
yo, Toronto can knock these fools off.
And towards the end of that series,
it started looking like,
yo, that was actually kind of possible.
And so, yeah, Joel,
I don't know, man.
He got to show me for once
ever in his career where it's always
somebody else's fault. There's always
some kind of excuse. I got to see it.
Or an injury. Yeah, he's shooting
46.7%
in the playoffs. That first
year against Boston in 18,
which I went to some of those games,
he just didn't seem like he was in good enough shape yet.
He could put together like six good minutes,
but couldn't carry the whole time.
2019 was when they lost to Toronto
and he was bad in that series.
I think he shot like 38, 39% in the Toronto series.
2020, they got swept.
2021 was the bubble in the Atlanta series
where Ben Simmons,
I will not defend Ben Simmons,
but he wasn't wrong
when he pointed out that
Embiid wasn't great in that series.
That still could have been
an Embiid throws everyone on his back
and does it.
Last year, Embiid got banged up.
We just haven't seen it yet, Rob.
And he's been in the league.
He was in the 2014 draft.
It's 2023.
We haven't seen it yet.
We haven't seen it yet.
I mean,
all of those do have their respective asterisks.
This is honestly one of my all-time favorite
Waz takes. The pro accountability
for Joel take
is beautiful stuff. It is.
It is a chef's kiss, Waz. There is the part of me
that wants to go, what about the
non-Joel minutes, though, and how they tank
every year? For sure.
Especially against Toronto.
He was the only guy that could defend anything for whatever reason.
It's fake.
But there's always a catch, right?
There is always an injury.
There's always an illness.
There's always an explanation.
At some point, you have to do it.
And I think what's difficult for him in this position,
already being hurt at this point,
he's not going to get the shot that Jimmy Butler did,
where teams are going to guard you one-on-one and make you put up 50
to beat them. He's never going to get
that. He's always going to be double and triple teamed.
They're always going to try to make him win with
the pass. He's going to have to
prove that his gravity is so
powerful that he can turn every sixer
into a flamethrower. I don't
know if Philly has that personnel, and maybe
it's not fair to say, like,
Joel can only get the beat,
or get the belt if, like,
DeAnthony Melton hits his threes.
I thought you were comparing him to Hashim to beat.
I would never.
I would never step on your corner, Waz.
I know that's where you're ultimately going
in the next segment.
No, no, no, no.
Shouts to Hashim, though.
But, like, Embiid is going to have to flex on people
to secure this kind of standing.
And I just don't know if he's going to get that sort of defensive opportunity with the way people are going to have to flex on people to secure this kind of standing. And I just don't know if he's going to get
that sort of defensive opportunity
with the way people are going to try to guard him.
Six guys, Tatum, and I think it's too early.
You felt it in game five.
Now, we're taping this before game six.
Maybe he's going to have 65 points in game six.
I doubt it.
I just don't think,
from a consistency standpoint, from an impact on the game standpoint,
I look at him versus somebody like Booker and I know Jason's put up 39 and five all season,
and he's gotten a lot better in a lot of ways, but I still don't trust it on the level of like
where Jimmy Butler got to against Milwaukee, where Curry can go, where Jokic can go. Just game after game after game,
where even a bad Jokic game is 20, 14, and nine assists. That's like the floor for Jokic.
The floor for Tatum is a game like game five. Yeah, where he's one for 10 from threes and a
bunch of layups and no mid-range stuff and no real sense for like, ah, my team's veering the
wrong way. I'm going to get to the line and make some impact plays.
I still feel like he's putting it together.
And I don't mean that as a negative.
I think he's a year to two years away from really being the guy he's going to be.
And I just find it hard to believe we're going to leave mid-June going,
the best player in the league is now Jason Tatum.
It seems early, Rob.
Well, do you even leave a lot of Celtics games thinking like, the best player on the floor is now Jason Tatum. It seems early, Rob. Well, do you even leave a lot of Celtics games
thinking the best player on the floor was Jason Tatum, right?
A lot of times it's Jalen Brown.
I thought Jalen was better than him in the finals last year.
I mean, he's often a reason the Celtics win,
but there just aren't enough of those unimpeachable,
again, Jimmy Butler-level performances
where there is clear and convincing evidence
that he is that dude. He's great. He's awesome. He's balanced. He does so many things so well.
But we're talking about the best players in the sport. And I think when you stack up these guys
one next to the other, he's often the one who gets edged out by your Steffs and your Jokic's
and your Giannis's and even your Embiid's. Yeah, I think he'd move behind Booker right now,
but he can still, he can pull himself
back. He also was on the best team of
all these guys, like the best one
through nine group,
which I think is an advantage for him because if he
has an off night, there's four
other guys that can step up. Like you can have the
random Derek White game. You can have the Brogdon
off the bench for 25 game. Like nobody else has
that. Last guy is LeBron.
LeBron? Current day LeB. Last guy is LeBron. LeBron.
LeBron.
Current day LeBron?
One foot LeBron?
One foot LeBron.
Taking quarters off LeBron.
There's still
an aura about him.
There's still an effect on the other
guys. There's still a sense with him
that he's going to come through when they really need him to come through. It still feels like he
can fill the stat line when he wants. You watch a game like game five against Memphis last night
when he was doing the same thing he did in the first quarter game four. It was just like,
I'm not expending a lot of energy. I'm not sure we can win this game. I'm not going to, I have seven
bullets in my gun. I don't know if I'm shooting a bullet in this game yet. I'm going to see,
I'm going to, I'm going to wait. I'm going to cruise along. Do I need, do I need to shoot one
of my bullets yet? And the answer was no in that game, but he was thinking about it. There was in
the fourth quarter, especially they got within like 14 and, and you could see him like, do I fight? It's like fast and furious,
right? Do I hit the nose? Do I not? Do I just save it? And you could, it was clear as I,
you know, at game six, um, I'll unleash holy hell in that game in a series, Rob,
the reason I think LeBron's in this conversation is you only have to do that four times.
I only need four monster LeBron games. This is kind of what Jimmy Butler has figured out, although he played more than 50% in this last game. But Jimmy Butler in the
Boston series last year, he basically played three awesome games, three shit games in one
solid game. I do think LeBron in a seven game series has four, I'm as good as anyone on this
court games. So that's why he has to be mentioned. I don't think he should be in the lead list of candidates,
but he has to be mentioned.
So you don't think he should even be in this?
Look, he deserves mention.
You wouldn't have any all-time conversation
or top-of-the-league conversation.
Let's throw his name out there.
It's a perfectly fair thing to do.
I'm just watching him chill 35 feet from the rim.
He has not put it on tape in the first round.
He just hasn't. He has not put it on tape in the first round he just hasn't he has not
put the the performance together to indicate that he's at the level of devin booker you know um it
just hasn't but is that intentional though is he is he just saving it because he knows he is
he's basically a car that's at 190 000 miles about to go cross country. Yes. Which you're not just hopping in a car and going.
You're like, we got to stop every two hours.
We got to get gas.
I got to check the oil.
We got to make sure the tires are aligned.
Like you're really careful going cross country.
I think that's what he's doing.
But there's a difference between picking your spots.
And as you're saying, conserving ammo,
because you know you only have this many right it's
not a matter of like I need to
exert and then rest and exert and then rest like
Jimmy Butler was that game for
where he just had a massive first quarter
massive fourth quarter right
in between in case closing case done
yeah LeBron
is like he has to think that way not just within
every game but within whatever the
Lakers playoff run is going to be.
There's just only so much he's going to be able to do on that foot.
As I said before, the reason why I love sports
and why I'm so in love with LeBron's career
is that he put off this surgery just so they could do this.
They could give Memphis a scare, possibly beat them,
possibly make it to the second round
and give whoever, you know, a nice one and two.
Like, he put off this surgery
just so he could participate in this.
You know, at this stage of his career,
this type of player that he is at this point,
just so he could do this.
You know, that there was a chance
that they could get a young Memphis team or Sacramento team in the first round, make some noise. player that he is at this point, just so he could do this, you know, that there was a chance that
they could get a young Memphis team or Sacramento team in the first round, make some noise. You
never know. Somebody gets injured, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that shows you how much
LeBron cares about this. And he's, you know, it's happening. Like they're on the brink of going to
the second round. Um, but man, watching him in game five, I mentioned this on group chat, he drove to the lane, fell on the floor with nobody around him.
He just fell down.
Old guy.
Old guy basketball.
Well, you know, maybe his championship belt is,
he's in a different conversation where if they win a title,
he now gets some real hardware to flash in the Jordan argument.
It was like, hey, did Jordan win a title in his 20th year?
I'm one away from Jordan.
I have the same as Kobe, so he's probably in that
one. Last guy, just a bonus
I'm throwing out.
Mitchell Robinson, three rounds away.
Closer than you think.
Is this what Will Chamberlain was like to watch
in 1967?
So, before the
series, I'm like, the Knicks don't really have a lot of high-impact guys, right?
Like, the Cavs have Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland.
Like, these are high-impact.
You got to divert extra resources to stopping them, right?
And I'm like, the Knicks, I love Jalen Brunson.
I think he's going to be an impact guy.
But, like, Randall's not going to do anything.
RJ's not going to do anything.
They don't have a high-impact guy.
Mitchell Robinson is that person.
You have to devote
multiple resources to
boxing this man out and
these dudes would not even look at
the rim when he was down there.
Like you just don't even think about
trying to take a layup, a floater, any of that.
He's swallowing it up. I
underestimated and slept on this dude.
You're right to bring him up in this convo, Bill.
Rob, he might have been first team all-NBA center of round one.
It's him or Jokic.
It's unbelievable.
He kind of destroyed Jared Allen.
I don't know if Jared Allen can come back.
I try not to overreact to these things.
There are ebbs and flows to playoff series.
There are bad matchups.
Can we look at
Jared Allen the same way again?
After 18 offensive
rebounds over the last two games for Mitchell
Robinson, just moving Allen
out of the way, pulling him down whenever
he wanted.
He broke the caps.
He was Jared Allen
Plumlee.
Mitchell Robinson was all three Plumlee's
stacked up that's how he felt in this series
I had
an idea that he had it in him
for one game because he's done it to the Celtics
a couple times but not
where it got to in this Cleveland series
where they literally could not keep him away
from the rim he was just demolished
it was like watching in high school where the
one high school team just has a guy who's bigger than everybody else who just
keeps knocking stuff in. I was
really impressed. Great job by him. Can't wait for
round two. I'm glad we
figured this out. I feel like we came to some sort of list.
We have a nice list of candidates.
KD probably got overlooked, I think.
We didn't talk about him enough, but whatever.
Guys,
I don't feel like this podcast was a
failure, unlike Giannis and the Bucks. It's steps toward an even Guys, I don't feel like this podcast was a failure.
Unlike Giannis and the Bucks.
It's steps toward an even greater podcast and a greater podcast future.
That's it. Success is a mindset.
Success. It was a great job.
Good to see you both.
All right, that's it for part one of the podcast.
Stay tuned for part two.
It will be going up a little bit later on Thursday night.
Celtics Hawks reactions as well as NFL draft round one
and all the storylines from that.
Can't wait.
See you in part two. We saw that I don't have. We saw.