The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Best NBA Player Belt, Part 1: Post-Giannis Collapse With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre to discuss the Bucks' collapse in Round 1. They then talk about how the Best NBA Player Championshi...p Belt is currently up for grabs and who'll be eligible to grab it during the postseason! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 you'll listen to part one of a two-part thursday sports extravaganza it's all next it's the bill simmons podcast presented by fanduel football is in full action fanduel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all we've been doing pretty well a million dollar picks this year i love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks, and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate,
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Starting point is 00:01:03 Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're
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Starting point is 00:02:20 Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday, Sudden Death, the Van Damme classic. Me and Kyle Brandt did that one. Sunday night, 7.05 PT, 10.05 ET, right after Succession ends, episode six on the Prestige TV podcast. Sean Fantasy, Joanne Robinson, I'll be breaking down episode six of Succession. Also, if you want more draft coverage than what we're going to be giving you
Starting point is 00:02:49 in part two of this podcast with Shil Kapadia, you can listen to the Ringer NFL Draft Show podcast. You can listen to the Ringer NFL Show, both of those going up late tonight, and then Ryan Rossella tomorrow. So we have you covered on the NFL Draft. On this one, part one, it's something I taped on Thursday afternoon
Starting point is 00:03:06 because I was so dumbfounded by the Bucs Heat Series and all of the storylines from that, all the best player storylines. What do we think about Giannis going forward? Jimmy Butler? Who's going to be the best player in the league? The new wearer of the championship belt?
Starting point is 00:03:20 A thing that we've talked about so many times on this podcast, but I really do care about it. Also, what went wrong for the Bucs? Is it fixable? Rob Mahoney, Big Waz, Waz and Lambert and I, we just broke it down. We deep dove it to the point that we decided to split this up into two parts. So this is part one. Great discussion. Can't wait for you to listen to it. Part two coming up a little bit later tonight, NFL draft and then Hawks Celtics reaction. So stay tuned for that. This is part one.
Starting point is 00:03:48 I think we need our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast before Hawks-Celtics game six. So just wanted to get that out there in case Jason Tatum has 70 points because that would be relevant for the conversation we're about to have. Bucs heat happened last night. The heat knocked out the Bucs. Big Waz, Rob Mahoney, you guys did a podcast right after. And then Giannis at this press conference that you didn't know about during the podcast that became a talking point today. And it got me thinking about a lot of big picture stuff, a lot of legacy stuff. He was basically saying,
Starting point is 00:04:38 we lost. It happens. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Michael Jordan won six titles. He lost nine seasons. Were those nine seasons failure? It turned into this whole everybody talking, which is kind of in the air this week because we had that first take segment with JJ Redick and Stephen A. Smith where Stephen A. is like, the Clippers should convince him to retire. And JJ got mad and talked about how hard it is to come back. So I'm always careful about how hard to go on players when they say stuff like, this wasn't a failure. I don't want to hear about failures. Guys, that was one of the biggest failures in NBA playoff history. And I have big questions coming out of it about Giannis,
Starting point is 00:05:18 who for the last half decade was the best player in the league, give or take a couple months here or there. But if you're going to say who had the best five-year stretch, it was Giannis. I think we went into the playoffs thinking he was the best player in the league, give or take a couple months here or there. But if you're going to say who had the best five-year stretch, it was Giannis. I think we went into the playoffs thinking he was the best player in the league, best two-way guy, most reliable night-to-night force. He did get hurt during the series,
Starting point is 00:05:35 but he did seem pretty healthy the last two games. I feel like the championship belt is now available. The best player championship belt is now levitating above the ring like a money in the bank match for these next three rounds. So we'll start with Giannis
Starting point is 00:05:51 and then we'll go into the contenders. Rob, from what you saw from Giannis in this series and this season, do you think he's the best player in the league anymore? Yeah, this isn't the best day to make that argument, but I do. I still think he's the best player in the world. I think the reason we have these conversations, though, is because right
Starting point is 00:06:11 now, the NBA is not a first, second, third definitive podium of best players. It's kind of a platform. It's kind of a stage. And there's guys who are going to rotate around, maybe five guys in that group who are on kind of equal footing, and they don't outrank each other so much as they just revolve around one another. And so this was clearly not Giannis' time. Had some great moments in the series, had some disastrous moments in the series. It was also
Starting point is 00:06:35 just absent for part of it. Great players lose sometimes. I'm with him in the sense that this is clearly a letdown. Is this a colossal failure that should change the shape of his career? I don't know, man. Sometimes great players lose series.
Starting point is 00:06:51 I see this as more of a collective issue for the Bucs. Something that goes well beyond Giannis than like, this is the definitive argument that he's not the best player in the league anymore. I just don't see that. All right, I have some thoughts on that. But Waz, you go. What's your take? I hear everything Rob just said. All right, I have some thoughts on that, but Waz, you go. What's your take?
Starting point is 00:07:05 I hear everything Rob just said. However, if Giannis played the way that he played, say, last year in this series, they win, right? He did not play like the best player in the league in this series. He made, I think, a total of two jump shots away from, two jump shots, literally, out of like 24, a weight of not three feet not within three feet of the basket the entire series.
Starting point is 00:07:29 He was not as impactful defensively. I think that's sort of the theory of Giannis as best player in the league is that on defense, he's probably a top five defender. He was not in that series. If you go back and look at what he was doing to Boston last year, where dudes wouldn't even look at the freaking rim when Giannis was on the floor, that just was not in that series. If you go back and look at what he was doing to Boston last year, where dudes wouldn't even look at the freaking rim when Giannis was on the floor, that just was not the case in this series. The free throws have to matter.
Starting point is 00:07:52 It's way worse than it's ever been for him. And, you know, he just, to the point, not only is he missing them at a terrible rate, it's compounded by the fact he's throwing the ball all around the place at the end of the game because he's so petrified of going to the line in a big moment i think you gotta sort of strip it away from him because he did not play his best in a series that his team needed absolutely needed him to be the best player in the world in order to win which is kind of crazy to say i'm really proud of us this is the most ESPN conversation I've had in a while. So I'm really excited to be having it. I think the key point for me is all season. And this is
Starting point is 00:08:32 why I ultimately couldn't get there with MVP for him on top of the durability stuff. Cause he missed 19 games. I just didn't think offensively he was as good and the stats backed it up. And I even talked about this a few weeks ago. Um, but I'm just going to do it again really quickly. Within three feet, he shot 75, 74, 75%, right? He's, he's Shaq around the rim. There's no question. But from three to 10 feet in two, that in the 2021 season, he was 40%. And last year is 42%. year it was 35%. Then you go 10 to 16 feet, 35%. Then you go 16 to the three point line, 35%. Then you go three point shooting, 27.5%. So basically from four feet and out, he was like a 31% shooter this year. And that was not the case. And you think back to the finals when he laid it on
Starting point is 00:09:25 the Suns. Part of how he laid it on the Suns, he made big free throws in big pressure spots. And he did make that little elbow jumper. He made a couple of threes. That's fluky. Those always came and went. But he wasn't afraid to shoot from 15, 16 feet and he wasn't afraid to get fouled. And what changed for me in this series and really the whole season, the thing I noticed is that it was over and over again, him just trying to get as close to the basket as he could versus the defense being like, take that 15 footer in the past. He took it. And this year he didn't. And you look at the last two close games that the Bucks lost, they blew leads and their offense fell apart. Why did it fall apart? They missed easy shots. Game four, they missed a shit, you know,
Starting point is 00:10:10 little jump hooks, little layups, wide open threes. Then this last game, it got worse where the point, everyone looks scared to shoot. So Rob, do you think he's the same guy he was offensively two years ago? Because I don't think he is. Yeah, and to Waz's point, I think this is where it rings true. He was not the player he needed to be
Starting point is 00:10:26 in this series for them to win. But just think about that on its face, right? In this elimination game, Giannis has 38 and 20. Right. And we're sitting here saying, like, he did not play up to his standard. It's not enough.
Starting point is 00:10:38 Because his standard is the best player in the league. Right? That is what we have come to expect from him in these moments, to be exactly that dominant. But Giannis said this at the beginning of this season. He was asked if he thinks he is the best player in the
Starting point is 00:10:52 league then. And what he said was, Steph is the best player in the league. Because the best player is the last guy standing. The guy who takes his team, who gets through these moments. So I think Giannis would be the first to tell you that after this kind of series, he needs to hand the belt off to somebody else do we all have to think that?
Starting point is 00:11:08 do we all have to agree with it? do we all have to pile on at this particular moment? no, but I think there's ways to watch come on he's still great, he's still Giannis Rob, Rob, this is bad and the reason why is like we gotta compare him to his peers and his peers to me are the LeBrons,
Starting point is 00:11:28 the staffs, the great, the greatest players of this time. Right? Like the people who have won the proverbial belt, I would go backwards to magic and bird and people like that. Like he is now levitating with all those guys. Fair.
Starting point is 00:11:42 A hundred percent. And to lose in the first round in five games, this wasn't like a five game. 2-18 is brutal. It's brutal. 2-18 seed. This is bad. And some of it is the hubris of being like, these aren't do or die games. Giannis can miss a couple of games.
Starting point is 00:11:58 It's completely fine. That was, I don't know why they rested on their laurels with that one. And just again, like, in this game, Giannis just wasn't good enough. Some of their worst possessions was Giannis starting the ball, dribble, dribble, dribble, 22 feet out, and those possessions going absolutely
Starting point is 00:12:16 nowhere and having no chances. And what I like about people like, say, KD or people like, say, Steph is, no matter what, I can just inbound the ball to that guy and something good is going to happen at some point. But that's where he was in 2021 and I
Starting point is 00:12:32 even felt last year the reason they lost to Boston had nothing to do with him. There was this Grayson Allen kind of bench thing where they didn't have enough guys stepped up in Boston's depth. And the fact that they had game seven at home,
Starting point is 00:12:47 um, and Grant Williams had all those threes. This year was different. Those two Miami games were among like the great choke jobs in the playoffs of this century. And to me, this team, whether he wants to admit it or not,
Starting point is 00:13:02 at this point, that team goes down historically with some of the great flame outs we've had. The 94 Nuggets beating the Sonics, the 07 Warriors beating the Mavs, just these shocking results. The 84 Nets beating the Sixers. Even the 86 Lakers losing to the Rockets, even though that was the conference finals. Same kind of thing where it was like, whoa, wait, this might be happening. Now it's too crazy. Can't believe it. And then all of a sudden, Samson's making that crazy shot, a lot like what the Jimmy
Starting point is 00:13:33 Butler game time shot looked like in game five. I think that it was a complete collapse of coaching, of guys just not seeming to want the ball. When Giannis got that tip and he just flung it toward Middleton because he didn't want to get fouled, what happened the last eight seconds when Giannis had the ball and it wasn't there, and then it was basically a hot potato. And it was Grayson Allen just dribbling out the clock. This is historic shit that I feel like I'm going to remember 30 years from now. Whoa, remember the Bucs when Jimmy Butler
Starting point is 00:14:10 just snatched their heart out? Butler, Wes, have you ever seen an NBA player in a playoff game talk more shit than Butler talked to Drew Holiday? Oh my God. Ever? He was waving his fingers at him, pointing at him. He was screaming every single possession,
Starting point is 00:14:26 every single timeout. He's yelling in his direction because, of course, Drew Holiday has this reputation as the best defender, you know, perimeter guy in the league. And Jimmy Butler's making mincemeat of that dude. And again, Jimmy was way better than Giannis in this game. He was. I don't think that can be overstated. He was just a much better player.
Starting point is 00:14:45 He's guarding Giannis. He's guarding Lopez. He's like, put anybody. I'll guard anybody out here. And then he's eviscerating every single matchup to the point where Bud is like, all right, let's put Giannis on a dude that's spacing out to three and Kevin Love instead of Jimmy Butler or Bam Adebayo. That was terrible.
Starting point is 00:15:03 All the action is centeredo. That was terrible. All the action is centered around. That was terrible. It's bad. It's bad. I don't want to be too hard on the dude. I don't want to go full first take here. But I do think you have to question, like, when you watch Steph,
Starting point is 00:15:20 he's 2 of 10 last night, still drops 30. Still getting eight assists. Still the fulcrum of everything that they're doing on that end. And Giannis, that just wasn't the case. Well, regardless, I mean, what's inarguable, Jimmy Butler ripped out the Bucs still beating Hart, right? And if there was a belt to take, he took it. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:15:39 Which, you know, I'm going to do something that's a little dangerous with exercises like this, which is I'm going to try to understand the rules of what the championship belt is and represents. Do you need to beat the guy with the belt to take the belt? Is there like a chain of custody with this thing? Rob, great question.
Starting point is 00:15:56 Bill's ready. I spelled it out. I have the belt. I'm just going backwards from 2022 or 23 to 1971. Giannis had it, right? Basically for the last four years, even though Curry won the title,
Starting point is 00:16:10 I still feel like people left that season like, Curry, amazing, one of the best ever. But Giannis, if you just gave him 11 crappy teammates, he's still probably the best part. It was one of the two of them. It was Kawhi in 2019, had it for a few months. LeBron basically had it during those last
Starting point is 00:16:30 couple Cleveland years from winning one in 2016 all the way through that crazy 2018 series. Curry had it before for like a year, but it was kind of like it was almost a vacated belt. It was like when Roman Reigns got sick. It was like, wait, I guess Curry has the belt, but are we sure he's the champ?
Starting point is 00:16:46 Before that, it was LeBron. Dirk had it for a year in 2011. Kobe had it for three to four years. Duncan had it for basically the mid-2000s. Shaq had it 00, 01, 02. 99 was vacant because of the lockout. MJ had it those last three years. Hakeem for two, MJ for three.
Starting point is 00:17:05 Magic for four. MJ for three, Magic for four, Bird for a bunch of years, probably four. Moses, he had it for a couple. Kareem, then it's like Kareem, Walt, and Kareem going backwards. Julius, ABA, Kareem in the NBA, Wilt, 1972, and then Kareem. Oh, wow. You're giving Wilt a belt touch here? Wilt in 72 demolished everybody in the playoffs. So my point is you kind of knew who the guy was. And usually it revolved around, did you win the title or did you almost win the title? And there are some exceptions.
Starting point is 00:17:38 Like the 2014 playoffs, the Spurs win. You're not going to say like, oh, Kawhi has the belt now. He didn't. It was LeBron was still the best player in the league. Last year, Curry won, but I still think there was a really good Curry-Yannis argument. Now we go to this year.
Starting point is 00:17:52 I think whoever is left standing has the belt. So I'm going to give you four candidates and then three honorable mentions. First one, Jokic. So let's talk about him. This is set up for Jokic now. You could say he was the best regular season player of the last three years. He's had a couple of playoff moments, but nothing substantial and deep. He had a dog shit team last year, really bad luck with the Murray injury. But now it's set up.
Starting point is 00:18:24 They're the one seed. They have this Phoenix team that still looks a little discombobulated. Chance to play either the Warriors or the Lakers. They're going to have home court at least until the finals if they keep going. And Jokic is the day-to-day most impactful offensive player in the league.
Starting point is 00:18:40 I think we can all agree on that, right? Yeah. I would say. On board. Their imprint, day after day. Him and Steph are the agree on that, right? Yeah. Who puts their imprint day after day? Him and Steph are the conversation as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, where you're never going to veer off course too much if you have one of those guys. So Rob, are you prepared
Starting point is 00:18:55 to live in a world where Jokic is the best player in the league in seven weeks? Absolutely. I'm also prepared to live in a world where he gets cooked defensively in a way where we can't even really make the argument that can where the conversation is now off the table it's off the table so I mean both of those things can be true right I think what we saw from the first round as if we needed more proof of it like he carved the timberwolves up right like pushed all
Starting point is 00:19:21 the right buttons made all the right plays and what we also learned from the first round is this Phoenix defense is pretty carvable at the moment, right? Pretty vulnerable. There's a lot to exploit. I cannot wait to see that matchup, but the give and take of that is going to tell us a lot about where Jokic is in this conversation. Yeah. He's going to have his work cut out for him between what KD's doing in pick and roll and what Devin Booker's doing right now. Cause Devin Booker looks absolutely unconscious right now.
Starting point is 00:19:46 And so, yeah, Jokic, if Jokic finds a way to get to the finals this year, he has as good an argument as anybody has ever had because he's succeeding despite his weaknesses and the competition because I'm not convinced that anybody but the Warriors is coming out of that Sacramento Memphis Warriors group. So he would have to beat the Lakers group. So he would have to beat the Warriors. He would have to beat KD, Book, Chris Paul in the second round to get to the finals.
Starting point is 00:20:18 Yeah, he would solidify his claim. And it would show that his defensive shortcomings aren't so great that his team can't overcome it. That's the thing, right? It's not, do you have weaknesses as a player? Like we like to pretend that some of the past grades were perfect and had all kind of like watertight, all around games. It's do you win anyway, right?
Starting point is 00:20:36 Does it matter or can you overcome whatever it is that's holding you back as a player? Yeah, like every great player has had some form of weakness, right? Giannis didn't really want to get fouled and Giannis was being left open from 15 feet and he still made it work and won the title. Curry had a lot of,
Starting point is 00:20:54 oh, Curry's six for 20 right now. He'll have those games from time to time. The boneheaded turnover. Yeah, he called a timeout with no timeouts left on Sunday. It's like none of these guys are perfect and you can pick them apart. LeBron invented that whole pick and roll switch,
Starting point is 00:21:07 hunt the guy against Steph Curry. Those are some of Steph's weaknesses for sure. Yeah, and I've made this point before, and it sounds like I'm making an excuse for Jokic, but his one deficiency is just really glaring. It's the equivalent of Giannis just being unable to shoot from 15 feet. When Jokic is on an island and somebody goes by him, which, by the way, is pretty much the entire league at this point. It's not like LeBron is locking up people from 25 feet away either. But when somebody blows by Jokic, it looks 100 times worse. It's like, oh, my God, Jokic, Jesus. I never thought his defense was that bad. I never thought Curry's defense was that bad either. Actually, I think Curry's a pretty good defensive player.
Starting point is 00:21:48 And the thing about Yoke, too, is that the league is so pick-and-roll heavy, and so when teams want to go after him, it's like you're watching it happen play after play after play after play. It's like in slow motion. There's a difference between being a target and everyone knowing that you're
Starting point is 00:22:03 a target, right? It makes a world of difference. The other interesting thing about Jokic is just the putting the actual crown on as the best guy in the league. I don't think anybody has ever cared less that has ever passed through these circles and walked down the tunnel of like, I wonder if people will now think
Starting point is 00:22:22 I'm the best guy in the league. Even Giannis, who I think is among the most authentic stars we have in any sport. He cares a little, right? He's competitive. You always hear him talking about other great players and things he learns. He does care. He cares about it. And Jokic probably deep down cares, but watching him throw away the MVP the last month of the season and just kind of sick aims. And he was not like, oh, man, if I can get 50 tonight, the conversation will sway back to me. He just doesn't care.
Starting point is 00:22:51 I think he just wants to win. Like, he's playing against Rudy and Cat, and it doesn't feel personal for him. No. He's just going out and doing his job. It doesn't feel like, you know what, people used to compare me to Carl Anthony Townsend. They think this guy was better than me.
Starting point is 00:23:04 I'm going to kick his butt. He's just playing. He is going out and kicking those guys' asses, but it doesn't feel personal when he's doing it. Like, I remember the game when it was like two years ago. Giannis was playing against the Lakers, and he kind of had a big play to end the game, and he did the crown on his head, right? Like, that was clearly a shot at LeBron. Like I'm taking it personal when I play against you.
Starting point is 00:23:28 You will never see Jokic do something like that ever. Yeah, what would have to happen for Jokic to give himself the crown? Would he have to win the triple crown himself? Like would he have to go into his second career? We might have to see it, you know? I feel like the crown would have had to belong to one of these Eastern Bloc guys who he has a personal relationship with. And then he would make it personal.
Starting point is 00:23:50 Yeah, some country versus country thing. Or it's like in the in-season tournament if the MVP gets an actual crown, he'd be like, ah, fuck, I got to put this thing on. All right, I want to hit the other candidates, but let's take a quick break. The NBA playoffs are here and they're rocking and you can turn crossovers into cash with FanDuel. All you have to do is visit FanDuel.com slash BS right now. Place a
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Starting point is 00:26:08 visit 1800gambler.net. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.
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Starting point is 00:27:01 And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. Best part championship belt. We talked about Jokic. Let's talk about Curry. So if you're just talking big picture, who has the most to gain from an actual championship run? It's funny. We have a lot of candidates for, wow, this would completely change how we think about this person historically. Even LeBron.
Starting point is 00:27:35 If LeBron got his fifth, if LeBron won a title in year 20, that's just an amazing monkey wrench for how people discuss his career, him versus Jordan, all that stuff. If you go down the line, it would affect everybody. Curry beating LeBron and the Lakers, assuming the Lakers win, getting through Jokic in the next round, where basically the offensive player that levitates above the sport crown is on the line, and then him winning again in the finals.
Starting point is 00:28:00 Then it's like, now we're talking about him as one of the really great players ever. Not like, oh, he's one of the like really great players ever not like oh he's one of the 15 16 greats now i'd be like okay curry versus kobe curry is the best player of the century like a whole different thing of of stuff comes out um then you think rob about all the weird shit that happened with this team this year and how shitheads like me were doing podcasts like less than a week ago about could they get swept in round one by the Kings
Starting point is 00:28:28 and the resolve and the DNA of this team and a little luck too. Like if that Barnes wide open three goes in, they're down 3-1. I don't know what the series looks like. But not only did they write the ship, but it feels like he's the safest bet now, would you say,
Starting point is 00:28:43 for just being awesome in a playoff series? I would say he's replaced Giannis at least for that. Yeah, I mean, he's going to show up for these games. And most importantly, his impact on his teammates is going to show up for these games. Like when you look at some of these contests with the Kings,
Starting point is 00:28:58 these are close games all throughout. They're kind of give and take. But what do the Kings have or what do the Warriors have that the Kings don't? And it's championship experience. Sure, it's like some defensive flexibility. It's all that stuff. But really, it's Steph.
Starting point is 00:29:10 And it's his shot making and his gravity and his impact. And there was this play, this clip in game three that made the rounds online. Right before halftime of that game, Steph missed a shot. Looney got the offensive rebound
Starting point is 00:29:23 because, of course, he did. Kicked it back out to Steph. Steph hits like shot. Looney got the offensive rebound because of course he did. Kicked it back out to Steph. Steph hits like a back-breaking three. And someone zoomed in on like every member of the Kings bench when he hits that shot. And the sheer look of hopelessness captured on their faces, the pure like,
Starting point is 00:29:39 what the fuck do we do with this guy energy? That happened with the Celtics in game four too. It's the same look. That's the Steph case, right? And there is not a more back-breaking play in basketball right now than when Steph misses and gets another shot to reload because you just know how hopeless it is, right?
Starting point is 00:29:54 You cannot let him miss one shot and give him another opportunity because he will beat you. Yeah, that's why to me, it's going to be hard to mount a case that's better than Steph's, in my humble opinion, right? I think there are guys who can get to great levels. Like, just for instance, Joel Embiid.
Starting point is 00:30:11 If he ever plays as good as he does in the regular season, in the playoffs, for once in his freaking career, then you could be like, yo, man, this guy might be the best player in the league for real. But Steph does that every single playoff. And there's what he does to like this people are despondent after he makes a big bucket but the panic he induces before the bucket even goes in is just crazy and then somehow at 34 years old he's never been better as a one-on-one player isolation player yeah where Davion Mitchell this guy is pit bull. He's a great at the point of attack defender. Steph is blowing by this dude. He's finishing better than he ever did. It's yeah,
Starting point is 00:30:51 to me, Steph is the guy for me that like when I'm watching him, just like there's no way this guy's going to miss a big shot. There's no way he's not going to make the right pass when they double and triple team him. He's just unstoppable. Yeah. Russel and I talked on Sunday about whether Steph is better now than he was during that crazy 2016 run. Yeah, the thing that feels just different and better, first of all, is the legacy of he's put together so many games now
Starting point is 00:31:19 that what Rob mentioned about sucking the life out of the other team, now there's like a real resume of, oh shit. It's like the horror movie. It's like when you're Now there's like a real resume of, Oh shit. It's like the horror movie. It's like when you're watching scream six, you're like, Oh boy,
Starting point is 00:31:30 they got a phone call. This is going to go badly. And you just kind of know from the other screen movies. The other thing with him that I just don't feel like he had in the same way in 16 was how strong he is when he gets a split step on a guy now. And he's riding the guy on his hip and he's just mastered sticking his, his right arm out with the ball and bringing it back. And it just feels like he only needs an inch now to score.
Starting point is 00:31:53 And I don't, I don't really remember that in the same way in 2016. I almost want to go back and watch some in 2016. It felt way more jump shoddy, fast break layup, but not like this half court get to the rim stuff you can knock him off his square
Starting point is 00:32:09 very easily back in those days easily rattled that was sort of the game plan was to get in his airspace crowd him rough him up that was the thing rough Steph Curry up can't do that anymore he's unmovable now it's crazy next guy my third of my four choices You can't do that anymore. No. He's unmovable now. It's crazy.
Starting point is 00:32:25 Next guy. My third of my four choices. I mean, it's on the table for Jimmy Butler, incredibly. It is. If he rips through the Knicks in round two in New York, not having home court advantage in any round, then he goes through, I would assume, the Celt Celtics and Tatum and Brown, the young bucks and goes in there and does that.
Starting point is 00:32:49 And then in the last round, you're getting Jokic or Curry or LeBron or whoever you're going to throw at him, Durant. And he just wins four straight rounds doing this crazy alpha thing. We would leave the season the same way we left with Kawhi in 2019. Like, hey, man, we have a new champ.
Starting point is 00:33:09 There we go. And it's a wrap, right? Yeah. How are you feeling on zombie watch overall, Bill? Like the prospect of the heat and the Celtics potentially meeting in the conference final. Are you boarding up the windows?
Starting point is 00:33:20 Are you taking stock of the canned goods? Where are you at? I am like the old lady in one of those horror movies that is just outside screaming to people on the street that so-and-so is coming and nobody listens. That was what I was like for six months. Even I gave up though. I can't take a full victory lap
Starting point is 00:33:38 because after that first playing game, I'm like, I'm out. The zombie heater no more. Then they lose Hero. What's crazy though is, you know, they shot 45% from three in the series. That's like zombie heat shit. Like when you have Gabe Vincent
Starting point is 00:33:53 just pulling up from 28 in crunch time of a game, just burying it. Or that play in game four, who's a Caleb Martin when he had Giannis on him in the corner. And he's like, oh, I can't shoot this. Giannis is, no, I'm actually going to shoot corner. And he's like, oh, I can't shoot this. Giannis isn't... No, I'm actually
Starting point is 00:34:05 going to shoot it. And he just makes it. Or you have Kevin Love, who was given up for dead by Cleveland for reasons that remain unclear. And now he's putting up a 15-12 in an elimination game. That's zombie stuff, Rob. That's where you're like, all right, this is just great coaching
Starting point is 00:34:22 and a really tough team. I thought... Wow, I loved how Bam played yesterday too. That was probably one of my favorite Bam performances. Yeah, that adjustment that Spoh made where he's letting Bam orchestrate everything so that he's taking Lopez out of the paint. And Bam did a couple of things too where he made a couple of jump shots so that when he dribbled towards Lopez, Lopez had to move up. He couldn't just stay there. Right. He couldn't have the confidence that he couldn't make that shot.
Starting point is 00:34:50 And so Ben, with that, he had something like nine assists yesterday. That was, you know, that was everything for them, especially in the fourth and overtime. But, yeah, Jimmy Butler. And here's the thing. I'm talking to our guy, Verrier, watching this game. And I'm like, what the hell are they doing? Why are they still in the dropped coverage? Yeah. Justin's like, hey, Bud likes math. This guy, Butler, shoots at the Mendoza line. This is the right call in Bud's mind. I'm like, you can't do this. You got to throw that out the window with Jimmy Butler. He shoots threes now.
Starting point is 00:35:22 Every playoff, he turns into a pull-up assassin. He's in mid-range. He's backdoor cutting you to death. You can't stop him from getting to the rack. Bro, you have to throw all of your stuff out the window. You got to treat him like he's KD or something in the playoffs. It's crazy. But yeah, if he continues to play like this, he's playing as good, if not better than everybody.
Starting point is 00:35:44 Every single player in the NBA, which is crazy to say. And he's one of the two momentum guys in the league now, the other being Steph, where I don't know what it is, but when he gets going, you can feel it. The other team feels it. The audience feels it. I've been in the room when it happens where you're like, oh no, oh no, oh, I don't like the look in his eye. And he just gets happens where you're like, oh no, oh no, uh-oh. I don't like the look in his eye. And he just gets going. He also like, you know, he missed that three at the end of game seven that he should have taken.
Starting point is 00:36:12 He missed a three yesterday where it was pretty clear he should have just gone in the basket, but that's part of whatever zone he's in now. He thinks he can make everything. He's not afraid of anything. And his fearlessness would, it's a little reminiscent of the Kawhi Toronto run for me. It doesn't totally make sense, but until somebody beats him, I think he has to be in the mix. My fourth choice.
Starting point is 00:36:39 So I gave you Jokic, I gave you Curry, I gave you Butler. My fourth choice might surprise both of you. Who do you think it is? Just from you Butler. My fourth choice might surprise both of you. Who do you think it is? Just from the setup. My fourth choice will surprise both of you. Who am I picking for my fourth guy? If it's not KD, it's a surprise to me. Could it be KD's teammate, Devin Booker?
Starting point is 00:37:01 Could you make a Devin Booker case? It is Devin Booker. Wow. And it wasn't anything, I wasn't fully prepared to go there until I went to the game on Saturday. Marcel and I talked about it a little, but I'll do it again. I was so impressed by everything.
Starting point is 00:37:15 I was impressed by how he was carrying, there's like a real alpha sense with him now in person. The way he carries himself, the way his teammates kind of respond to him and play off him, not just during the game, but in the timeouts, like him just screaming at DeAndre for 45 seconds,
Starting point is 00:37:30 how fucking hard he plays. That was like as hard as I've seen anybody play in person, except for maybe Giannis in the last couple of years, where he was just like balls to the wall the whole time, trying his ass off, really pissed when Westbrook would beat him. And, and offensively he's got every shot now,
Starting point is 00:37:49 you know, and the fact that KD has given him more space. I just think like from a two guard total package standpoint of anybody that's been in the league since Jordan, from a traditional two guard, the kind of two guard we, we all grew up with that we're used to seeing. He brings the most to the table.
Starting point is 00:38:07 And I could totally see him putting together three more rounds like that and us being like, wow, Devin Booker's the best player in the league. Didn't see that one coming. But I'm flagging it now because I do think it's in play. Rob, your thoughts.
Starting point is 00:38:21 He was on my list too. I think in part the idea that is this kind of the run where he ascends right where he hits such a ridiculous level of play like we've seen already and sustains it to the point that he's kind of undeniable and he made that case against the clippers i thought you know that was a series where the suns had a hard time just getting durant shots honestly like they were trying to get him the ball he was being pushed pushed off his spots. It was hard to make clean catches. And that's part of why, even
Starting point is 00:38:47 without Kawhi and Paul George, the Clippers were constantly threatening to draw out that series, to make it a slog, to extend it. Devin Booker had other ideas. It was just a ruthless, efficient showing, and I can't wait to see how that stacks up against the Nuggets.
Starting point is 00:39:04 He also kind of spiritually fits this conversation. If we're talking about the idea of a belt for the best player, he's going at your best defenders. He's going at whoever you throw into him, the relentlessness of that, he is going to steal it from you. And that's, I think, as much as anything, you know, not only the fact that he is matching Jimmy, like almost point for point, really like stat for stat in the playoffs so far. He's logging to our points about his effort, as much total mileage as any player in the playoffs to date. He just has the mentality of a guy who could take it. And the respect of the other players too, dating back to like when KD was on my podcast in 2017 and identified him, which is another great thing about being the best or one of the best is
Starting point is 00:39:45 when the current great guys are like that guy, he's got something a little extra wise. Where do you stand on Booker? I mean, I absolutely love Booker. He's, he's blown me away. Uh, you know, every time Giannis doesn't, it doesn't, uh, achieve something. I think about the bag talk. How Giannis doesn't have a bag. Devin Booker has five bags. He is insane. When Rob talks about the distance he's covering, he's become a Reggie Miller type, Ray Allen type, off the ball
Starting point is 00:40:18 when he's not dominating the ball. And then when he needs to, he's going to go at you. He can go at you in isolation. He's incredible, incredibly crafty at pick and roll. Spot up. You cannot leave this man open even for a second.
Starting point is 00:40:32 It's crazy. The mid-range, he's finishing. Like, he is, it's beautiful to watch. It's just KD, you know. He's 6'10", and he's doing all the things that Booker does. So it's like, for me, I'm always going to be gonna be like KD my mind just automatically defaults to KD but what we saw from Booker in the first five games of the playoffs um it's up there with with anybody I just think you know KD has a longer track record of doing it and you know it's KD it's KD. It's KD. Well, we could say son TBD for that fourth spot. But I think, you know, one good thing with Booker is that Dallas series was so embarrassing
Starting point is 00:41:12 last year and he wasn't very good in it either. And maybe that's part of, he's also at the right time in his career, I think. I think there's still a little chip on the shoulder with him because he doesn't get discussed with these guys. He got hurt this year, right when he was playing. He would have been first team all NBA, no question, if he doesn't get hurt. So it's the right time of career for him. It's chip on the shoulder. He's finally got a second guy who can space the floor for him and help him out a little bit. Three more guys we just got to do quickly. Embiid.
Starting point is 00:41:45 It is sitting there, but I think all of us are dubious. He's already hurt. You got to show me. I wasn't because we wanted to discuss Embiid. Anything to add? Because it really does get underrated how much worse Embiid has been in the playoffs his whole career. He's played worse than his regular season output every single playoff his whole career. That's what Ben Simmons was kind of trying to get at
Starting point is 00:42:09 on our guy JJ's podcast, where he's like, you know, everybody's talking about me, but, like, not everybody was just, you know, Michael Jordan out there. He was basically intimating, like, it's not as if Joel was world-dominating, you know, destroyer of everything. He wasn't, and he hasn't been. Not once. Think about, you know, destroyer of everything. He wasn't.
Starting point is 00:42:25 And he hasn't been. Not once. Think about, you know, even the Toronto series at points last year. A bunch of smart people went into that thinking, yo, Toronto can knock these fools off.
Starting point is 00:42:36 And towards the end of that series, it started looking like, yo, that was actually kind of possible. And so, yeah, Joel, I don't know, man. He got to show me for once ever in his career where it's always somebody else's fault. There's always
Starting point is 00:42:50 some kind of excuse. I got to see it. Or an injury. Yeah, he's shooting 46.7% in the playoffs. That first year against Boston in 18, which I went to some of those games, he just didn't seem like he was in good enough shape yet. He could put together like six good minutes,
Starting point is 00:43:05 but couldn't carry the whole time. 2019 was when they lost to Toronto and he was bad in that series. I think he shot like 38, 39% in the Toronto series. 2020, they got swept. 2021 was the bubble in the Atlanta series where Ben Simmons, I will not defend Ben Simmons,
Starting point is 00:43:25 but he wasn't wrong when he pointed out that Embiid wasn't great in that series. That still could have been an Embiid throws everyone on his back and does it. Last year, Embiid got banged up. We just haven't seen it yet, Rob.
Starting point is 00:43:37 And he's been in the league. He was in the 2014 draft. It's 2023. We haven't seen it yet. We haven't seen it yet. I mean, all of those do have their respective asterisks. This is honestly one of my all-time favorite
Starting point is 00:43:49 Waz takes. The pro accountability for Joel take is beautiful stuff. It is. It is a chef's kiss, Waz. There is the part of me that wants to go, what about the non-Joel minutes, though, and how they tank every year? For sure. Especially against Toronto.
Starting point is 00:44:06 He was the only guy that could defend anything for whatever reason. It's fake. But there's always a catch, right? There is always an injury. There's always an illness. There's always an explanation. At some point, you have to do it. And I think what's difficult for him in this position,
Starting point is 00:44:19 already being hurt at this point, he's not going to get the shot that Jimmy Butler did, where teams are going to guard you one-on-one and make you put up 50 to beat them. He's never going to get that. He's always going to be double and triple teamed. They're always going to try to make him win with the pass. He's going to have to prove that his gravity is so
Starting point is 00:44:38 powerful that he can turn every sixer into a flamethrower. I don't know if Philly has that personnel, and maybe it's not fair to say, like, Joel can only get the beat, or get the belt if, like, DeAnthony Melton hits his threes. I thought you were comparing him to Hashim to beat.
Starting point is 00:44:51 I would never. I would never step on your corner, Waz. I know that's where you're ultimately going in the next segment. No, no, no, no. Shouts to Hashim, though. But, like, Embiid is going to have to flex on people to secure this kind of standing.
Starting point is 00:45:03 And I just don't know if he's going to get that sort of defensive opportunity with the way people are going to have to flex on people to secure this kind of standing. And I just don't know if he's going to get that sort of defensive opportunity with the way people are going to try to guard him. Six guys, Tatum, and I think it's too early. You felt it in game five. Now, we're taping this before game six. Maybe he's going to have 65 points in game six. I doubt it.
Starting point is 00:45:20 I just don't think, from a consistency standpoint, from an impact on the game standpoint, I look at him versus somebody like Booker and I know Jason's put up 39 and five all season, and he's gotten a lot better in a lot of ways, but I still don't trust it on the level of like where Jimmy Butler got to against Milwaukee, where Curry can go, where Jokic can go. Just game after game after game, where even a bad Jokic game is 20, 14, and nine assists. That's like the floor for Jokic. The floor for Tatum is a game like game five. Yeah, where he's one for 10 from threes and a bunch of layups and no mid-range stuff and no real sense for like, ah, my team's veering the
Starting point is 00:46:03 wrong way. I'm going to get to the line and make some impact plays. I still feel like he's putting it together. And I don't mean that as a negative. I think he's a year to two years away from really being the guy he's going to be. And I just find it hard to believe we're going to leave mid-June going, the best player in the league is now Jason Tatum. It seems early, Rob. Well, do you even leave a lot of Celtics games thinking like, the best player on the floor is now Jason Tatum. It seems early, Rob. Well, do you even leave a lot of Celtics games
Starting point is 00:46:26 thinking the best player on the floor was Jason Tatum, right? A lot of times it's Jalen Brown. I thought Jalen was better than him in the finals last year. I mean, he's often a reason the Celtics win, but there just aren't enough of those unimpeachable, again, Jimmy Butler-level performances where there is clear and convincing evidence that he is that dude. He's great. He's awesome. He's balanced. He does so many things so well.
Starting point is 00:46:49 But we're talking about the best players in the sport. And I think when you stack up these guys one next to the other, he's often the one who gets edged out by your Steffs and your Jokic's and your Giannis's and even your Embiid's. Yeah, I think he'd move behind Booker right now, but he can still, he can pull himself back. He also was on the best team of all these guys, like the best one through nine group, which I think is an advantage for him because if he
Starting point is 00:47:14 has an off night, there's four other guys that can step up. Like you can have the random Derek White game. You can have the Brogdon off the bench for 25 game. Like nobody else has that. Last guy is LeBron. LeBron? Current day LeB. Last guy is LeBron. LeBron. LeBron. Current day LeBron?
Starting point is 00:47:29 One foot LeBron? One foot LeBron. Taking quarters off LeBron. There's still an aura about him. There's still an effect on the other guys. There's still a sense with him that he's going to come through when they really need him to come through. It still feels like he
Starting point is 00:47:50 can fill the stat line when he wants. You watch a game like game five against Memphis last night when he was doing the same thing he did in the first quarter game four. It was just like, I'm not expending a lot of energy. I'm not sure we can win this game. I'm not going to, I have seven bullets in my gun. I don't know if I'm shooting a bullet in this game yet. I'm going to see, I'm going to, I'm going to wait. I'm going to cruise along. Do I need, do I need to shoot one of my bullets yet? And the answer was no in that game, but he was thinking about it. There was in the fourth quarter, especially they got within like 14 and, and you could see him like, do I fight? It's like fast and furious, right? Do I hit the nose? Do I not? Do I just save it? And you could, it was clear as I,
Starting point is 00:48:32 you know, at game six, um, I'll unleash holy hell in that game in a series, Rob, the reason I think LeBron's in this conversation is you only have to do that four times. I only need four monster LeBron games. This is kind of what Jimmy Butler has figured out, although he played more than 50% in this last game. But Jimmy Butler in the Boston series last year, he basically played three awesome games, three shit games in one solid game. I do think LeBron in a seven game series has four, I'm as good as anyone on this court games. So that's why he has to be mentioned. I don't think he should be in the lead list of candidates, but he has to be mentioned. So you don't think he should even be in this?
Starting point is 00:49:09 Look, he deserves mention. You wouldn't have any all-time conversation or top-of-the-league conversation. Let's throw his name out there. It's a perfectly fair thing to do. I'm just watching him chill 35 feet from the rim. He has not put it on tape in the first round. He just hasn't. He has not put it on tape in the first round he just hasn't he has not
Starting point is 00:49:26 put the the performance together to indicate that he's at the level of devin booker you know um it just hasn't but is that intentional though is he is he just saving it because he knows he is he's basically a car that's at 190 000 miles about to go cross country. Yes. Which you're not just hopping in a car and going. You're like, we got to stop every two hours. We got to get gas. I got to check the oil. We got to make sure the tires are aligned. Like you're really careful going cross country.
Starting point is 00:49:57 I think that's what he's doing. But there's a difference between picking your spots. And as you're saying, conserving ammo, because you know you only have this many right it's not a matter of like I need to exert and then rest and exert and then rest like Jimmy Butler was that game for where he just had a massive first quarter
Starting point is 00:50:14 massive fourth quarter right in between in case closing case done yeah LeBron is like he has to think that way not just within every game but within whatever the Lakers playoff run is going to be. There's just only so much he's going to be able to do on that foot. As I said before, the reason why I love sports
Starting point is 00:50:33 and why I'm so in love with LeBron's career is that he put off this surgery just so they could do this. They could give Memphis a scare, possibly beat them, possibly make it to the second round and give whoever, you know, a nice one and two. Like, he put off this surgery just so he could participate in this. You know, at this stage of his career,
Starting point is 00:50:59 this type of player that he is at this point, just so he could do this. You know, that there was a chance that they could get a young Memphis team or Sacramento team in the first round, make some noise. player that he is at this point, just so he could do this, you know, that there was a chance that they could get a young Memphis team or Sacramento team in the first round, make some noise. You never know. Somebody gets injured, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that shows you how much LeBron cares about this. And he's, you know, it's happening. Like they're on the brink of going to the second round. Um, but man, watching him in game five, I mentioned this on group chat, he drove to the lane, fell on the floor with nobody around him.
Starting point is 00:51:28 He just fell down. Old guy. Old guy basketball. Well, you know, maybe his championship belt is, he's in a different conversation where if they win a title, he now gets some real hardware to flash in the Jordan argument. It was like, hey, did Jordan win a title in his 20th year? I'm one away from Jordan.
Starting point is 00:51:45 I have the same as Kobe, so he's probably in that one. Last guy, just a bonus I'm throwing out. Mitchell Robinson, three rounds away. Closer than you think. Is this what Will Chamberlain was like to watch in 1967? So, before the
Starting point is 00:52:04 series, I'm like, the Knicks don't really have a lot of high-impact guys, right? Like, the Cavs have Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland. Like, these are high-impact. You got to divert extra resources to stopping them, right? And I'm like, the Knicks, I love Jalen Brunson. I think he's going to be an impact guy. But, like, Randall's not going to do anything. RJ's not going to do anything.
Starting point is 00:52:22 They don't have a high-impact guy. Mitchell Robinson is that person. You have to devote multiple resources to boxing this man out and these dudes would not even look at the rim when he was down there. Like you just don't even think about
Starting point is 00:52:37 trying to take a layup, a floater, any of that. He's swallowing it up. I underestimated and slept on this dude. You're right to bring him up in this convo, Bill. Rob, he might have been first team all-NBA center of round one. It's him or Jokic. It's unbelievable. He kind of destroyed Jared Allen.
Starting point is 00:52:55 I don't know if Jared Allen can come back. I try not to overreact to these things. There are ebbs and flows to playoff series. There are bad matchups. Can we look at Jared Allen the same way again? After 18 offensive rebounds over the last two games for Mitchell
Starting point is 00:53:12 Robinson, just moving Allen out of the way, pulling him down whenever he wanted. He broke the caps. He was Jared Allen Plumlee. Mitchell Robinson was all three Plumlee's stacked up that's how he felt in this series
Starting point is 00:53:27 I had an idea that he had it in him for one game because he's done it to the Celtics a couple times but not where it got to in this Cleveland series where they literally could not keep him away from the rim he was just demolished it was like watching in high school where the
Starting point is 00:53:42 one high school team just has a guy who's bigger than everybody else who just keeps knocking stuff in. I was really impressed. Great job by him. Can't wait for round two. I'm glad we figured this out. I feel like we came to some sort of list. We have a nice list of candidates. KD probably got overlooked, I think. We didn't talk about him enough, but whatever.
Starting point is 00:54:01 Guys, I don't feel like this podcast was a failure, unlike Giannis and the Bucks. It's steps toward an even Guys, I don't feel like this podcast was a failure. Unlike Giannis and the Bucks. It's steps toward an even greater podcast and a greater podcast future. That's it. Success is a mindset. Success. It was a great job. Good to see you both.
Starting point is 00:54:19 All right, that's it for part one of the podcast. Stay tuned for part two. It will be going up a little bit later on Thursday night. Celtics Hawks reactions as well as NFL draft round one and all the storylines from that. Can't wait. See you in part two. We saw that I don't have. We saw.

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