The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Big Spike Lee Sit-down, Plus NBA Trade Value 2.0 | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 479)

Episode Date: February 6, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss Bill's updated Trade Value column including new spots for Paul George, Luka Doncic, De'Aaron Fox, Ben Simmons, and Deandre Ayton among others (3:00). Then Bill sits down with legendary director Spike Lee to talk basketball conspiracies, the Porzingis trade, stories from courtside, and films including 'Do the Right Thing,' 'Malcolm X,' '25th Hour,' 'He Got Game,' 'BlacKkKlansman,' and more (39:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you as always by ZipRecruiter. You know what's smart? Getting out an NBA trade value 2.0 list right before the trade deadline just in case anything happens. That's what's on the ringer.com right now. I wrote an update to my trade value list. Check it out, the ringer.com. You know what else is smart? Go into ziprecruiter.com slash BS to hire the right people for your business. ZipRecruiter's technology identifies people with the right skills for your job. They actively invite them to apply. You get qualified candidates fast. I don't know if Bill Belichick is using this to find our next defensive coordinator, Kyle. Who is our next defensive coordinator? Let's just trust him. Let's just trust him. I trust him, man. He's one of six ranks.

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We're also brought to you by the ringer.com, the world's greatest website where we are just on hold 24 hours a day, waiting for a crazy NBA trade to happen, following all the rumors following all the intrigue you name it, it's on our site we're also dealing with the Oscars we have a new Rewatchables podcast

on the Ringer Podcast Network right now it's the Warriors, it's the 40th anniversary one of my favorite movies ever and I was glad that I finally got to properly skewer the baseball furious overrated all makeup and bats And I was glad that I finally got to properly skewer the baseball furious. Overrated. All makeup and bats and just you have to listen to the pod. They get a nice little skewering.

Coming up, Spike Lee was in the house on Friday. And man, it was really fun to interview him. We talked for almost an hour and a half. And we're going to run that right after we talk to Joe House briefly just to talk about Trade Value List 2.0 and a couple other things, and then a lot of Spike Lee. So maybe like 20, 25 minutes with House and then hitting Spike Lee hard. Spike was great.

I really enjoyed it. I think you'll enjoy it too. First, our friends from Pro Gym. All right, on the line right now, the host of Fairway Rolling, a golf podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, as well as House of Carbs, an appreciation of food,

where I went last week to talk about cheese paca and somehow said it was a new restaurant, which I don't remember saying, but it's been around for like five years. So apologies to them. House, quickly, the Super Bowl, did you win money? As a matter of fact, I did. I'd like to thank Bill Belichick, Tom Brady, and Julian Edelman for just doing their job. I did my job.

I bet heavily on the Patriots minus two and a half. Good. I bet heavily on a parlay of the Patriots minus two and a half and the under. And I also made a little taste on James White under six receptions. It all worked out for me. Wow. That sounds like a great day. You sound like one of the only non-Patriot fans who are happy

that the Patriots won the Super Bowl. I've been thinking about it for the last two days and reading really a lot because I still don't understand what the hell the Rams were doing in that game. And then there's been some great articles. There's a great Twitter thread by Warren Sharp about this. Read a couple of different pieces, just how kind of dumb the Rams were. And it got me thinking like, this is one of the legacies of the Belichick

Brady legacy is just doing your job and putting yourself in the position for the other team to not do their job. And that's what the Rams did. The Rams did not do their job. They didn't go no huddle. They stayed in that 11 formation the whole time. They didn't really try to figure out what the Pats were doing and shift things around. And they just got kind of worked. I think they should be embarrassed, House.

Even with all of that, they were still two plays away from not only making a game of it, potentially winning the game. Their defense played well enough for them to win the football game. They did. Notwithstanding all of those strategic failures, the thing that i took great solace in and the reason that anybody who asked me what do you like here i love the thing i liked more than anything else was the under in this game because i uh just believed we were going to get

the jared golf that we really anticipated i admire what the rams did against the saints notwithstanding the questionable outcome of that game. But I admire that they game-planned and successfully reined in the Saints and got to feel comfortable in the Superdome there. Yeah, as it went along. They can never get him comfortable in this game. Exactly. I mentioned this on the Sunday podcast just because it was something I noticed watching the game.

The Pats got their one TD drive with their big lineup, which started the game when they couldn't really run the ball when they had Devlin and the I formation and all that stuff. And then on the big TD drive, they used that same formation, but they split everybody out. And they went five receivers with it. But they had Devlin and Burkhead and Gronk split wide as receivers. But they were doing it because of the Rams defense that they were playing.

And they just felt like they would have speed advantages, which is what led to Edelman got open, Gronk had the two big catches, Burkhead got open. And what was crazy about it is whatDaniel said they had never practiced it. And they just kind of drew it up in the fourth quarter because they thought it was a way that they could work. And really the only way you could do that is if your players are freaking smart. I mean, that's incredible. I hadn't heard that story.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they have these players and they find these, these cast offs and whoever's and, or, or people who are good, not great. But the one thing they have is the ability to just kind of think on the fly. And the guys that have never worked for them are always the guys who, the talented athletes who can't think that way. So they had that in the biggest drive of the year, they have freaking James Devlin out. Like he's Chad Ocho Cinco in the biggest drive of the year, they have freaking James Devlin out, like he's Chad Ochoacinco on the left side of the field as a receiver. And the Rams are like, what's going on? And it, and it enabled them to get Gronk open twice, but just a weird,

a classic out thinking the opposition thing. So I, to me, that's going to be the legacy of, of this whole era, other than how great Brady was and some of the players. But just like over and over again, figuring out these little challenges during the game. America doesn't appreciate it. They're tired of the Patriots. That's fine. And to be fair, we're barely a year removed from them

not having that kind of success against the Philadelphia Eagles. They couldn't figure it out. They couldn't figure out how to stop them. Lessons learned. By the way, many of those defensive backs in that game were not on this year's team. I just want to point out. There you go.

Trade value list. So I did a 2.0 list. I had promised that I was going to write big things about all the 55 guys, but then I had to speed it up because it seemed like Anthony Davis was going to get traded. Now who knows? What I'm hearing is that New Orleans might just say F you and just keep them until the summer. And if he doesn't want to play, whatever. But I don't think they're going to have- But that would just be spiteful. That would be to spite him.

Do you love that Lakers offer? I did this in the trade value. Ingram was the highest guy in that trade offer that they allegedly offered. It was Ingram, Lonzo Ball, Kuzma, some expirings, and a couple first-round picks. Do you love any of those guys or any of those guys a guaranteed all-star? I don't know. I mean, Ingram's a guaranteed all-star, sure. Is he? Is he, though? Yeah.

Is he really? Is he really? You'd bet your life he'sgram's a guaranteed all-star, sure. Is he? Is he, though? Yeah. Is he really? Is he really? You'd bet your life he's going to make an all-star, too. Yes, I would bet my life. Oh, my God. You're going to die, House. House, you're going to die. Did you see what I ate at the Super Bowl?

I am going to die. It's true. Well, anyway. Two boxes of Popeyes. I think the Celtics. Cajun rice, red beans and rice. Go ahead. The Celtics are obviously hoping this Lakers thing doesn't happen.

There's been some conjecture on the Davis side about he doesn't want to go there. He did this goofy list of teams. Conjecture? His dad said it. I love, by the way, this era where we use the dads to say things. This is a great era. Well, can you imagine if you were in some major professional situation of your life and your dad, Dick House, weighed in publicly to the media about it?

How mad would you be? Dick House has a view on this house. Will you, will you, will you please come, uh, eat at this, uh, all you can eat, um, Brazilian steakhouse and eat until you pass out.

Dick house word from Dick house. Uh, I'm not, I don't want my son to go there. I do not want my son to go there. Dick. I really don't think Dick house would insert himself into the situation would be my guess. House's dad really is named Dick House, by the way, for the people listening at home.

So anyway, I dropped Davis two spots at the trade value. And the top four is now Giannis. I have Steph Curry second. I have James Harden vaulted from 11 to three during this insane one third of the year run he's having where he's averaging 42, 8, and 8. And then Davis at four. And LeBron James at 5. Those are the completely and utterly untouchable top five. Any disagreements with the top five, House? No, no.

As we sit here today, there's no quibble that can be had. So the one quibble is whether Luka should be in there or not. No, that's not a quibble is whether Luca should be in there or not. No, that's not a quibble. You sure? That's a, that's a take. That's,

that's some, some take stuff. You're sure. Let them win 35 games. Let them win 38, 39 games a season with that cast of characters around him. And, and you know,

let's let the season end before we, we go out and coronate his ass. Okay. So the next three were Dockage, the Joker, Joel Embiid, six, seven,

eight. Any of those guys have a case to be in the untouchable top five? You know, the only one that jumps out at me is, is Emb'd that's i mean yeah if he's if he can stay and look listen here i'm knocking so loudly do you hear me like i hear i hear him dear lord please let him stay healthy i can't tell you how much i enjoy watching him play his inside out game is so perfect for this basketball moment that we are in right now. And he's got a terrific competitive attitude. Yeah, me too. I really liked

the game he played on Thursday where he didn't play well, but he still really affected the game in Golden State. And they ended up beating Golden State. He was like eight for 24, but he got to the free throw line. He protected the rim. He grabbed 20 rebounds. He played really, really hard. And he was like, you know, he's challenging shots. And I just thought he was a monster in that game and he didn't even play well. And he had Boogie Cousins and Looney getting thrown at him. So I have him Math on this list, and it's purely a health thing. That's it. Sure.

If we didn't have what happened in the first three seasons happen, I think he would be like third. I'm with you. I agree. He's up there. He's up there. He's up there. So then it's Durant and Kawhi, soon to be free agents.

Next group, Paul George, all the way up to 11 for trade buy. He jumped from 27 to 11 after a really, really top show 50-game run that he's had, where he's clearly the best player in OKC now. I even think the OKC fans would admit it. And has an outside case for first-team NBA. I think he's third for MVP right now. That's where I would have him. It's him or Kawhi, and he's just played every game. And he's under a really nice contract.

So he's got $30 million this year, $33, $35, $38. Gets a little dicey in year four, but at least you know he's under contract. I just admire it because of the example of a person who's experienced a devastating injury and come all the way back all the way back and reasserted his his prominence he really has reclaimed that top 10 in the league status and stature that he possessed before the injury. Agree.

So then the next group I had the hardest trouble with, this is group B. I don't know if he's a franchise guy, but he's our franchise guy was the group. In order, starting with 13, De'Aaron Fox, Ben Simmons, both under rookie contracts. Carl Anthony Towns, who was under a giant contract. Donovan Mitchell, rookie contract. Devin Towns, who is under a giant contract. Donovan Mitchell, rookie contract. Devin Booker, Jason Tatum. Tatum is under a rookie contract. So here's the case for Fox,

because statistically, just Fox versus Simmons, just in a vacuum, Simmons is probably more talented. But here's the case for Fox. And part of the goal with doing trade value is trying to feel out what the trade value is for the team that has the guy, how unlikely they are to even consider trading him. What Fox has done for them, what he's done for the fact that he likes to be in Sacramento.

You have a guy who actually likes being a Sacramento King who's already a leader, who plays with a real competitive spirit night after night after night, is easily a top three or four most fun to play with guy in the league. And you know he's going to resign there. He's 21 years old. He plays so freaking hard every game. I really do think it's affected the other guys in the team in a positive way where Buddy Heald, Bagley, people

like that, they're getting the best out of those guys, partly because of what Fox is doing night after night after night, the way he handles the media, all that stuff. To me, that's like a true franchise guy compared to some of the other versions of it where we've seen where it's like oh I'm not that happy right now I might who knows I might go somewhere else or somebody like Kyrie who has blamed the young guys five different times and then won't

even talk about his free agent status anymore and De'Aaron Fox is just like I want to be here we're going to win we're coming night after night and I think that stuff matters what's your take on that you love the aaron fox i do he had a little dialogue about him on the first iteration with drunk house that was with drunk house well i'm sure that drunk house got it right um i i i think it's fine with including him in this uh uh category of a player because of where

he is you know on the rookie contract and everything i still i don't know where was he last season what was going on last season that he needed a full year as a rookie to to acclimate 20 year old point guard on a bad team. Yeah, I admire what he's doing. All of the things that you listed off, I believe, are admirable. I just don't think that he's ahead of Devin Booker at this stage of the game. And I don't think he's ahead. He's making $5.5 million this year, and Devin Booker's making $3 million this year,

but then $27 million a year from now. And he's got this $140 million contract coming. So that's really as an asset, I think I'd rather have Fox on a rookie contract. That's what that comes down to. Yeah, maybe so. I just, you know, the jury's still out for me. I'm not ready. He's another one that I'm not ready to, to coronate. I do admire what he's done this year and the price is obviously right. It's the right situation for him. Congratulations to

Sacramento for looking into a young foundation finally. It's a really fun team to watch. They've only been trying for 15 years. I know. It's a really fun team to watch. I hope Sacktown Royalty writes a shitty post about you. Why?

House doesn't believe in De'Aaron Fox. Give me that as a headline. He's fine. He's fine. He's fine, says Joe House. He's enjoyable. I like him. I'm more in. But I know he's a little polarizing.

I was texting with somebody today about it. Simmons, I dropped him to 14 partly because I don't know how long he's going to be there. I've seen him be up and down. You keep saying this. I don't know. You know stuff. You hear stuff. You keep saying it.

I don't know. He and Embiid are there. Jimmy Butler is the one. By the way, that was my favorite line in this whole column. I dropped Jimmy Butler out of the entire trade value column. He's out of the column because he's a dick. He's been a dick. I got a nice chuckle out of that.

I enjoyed it. I don't like dicks. I thought Simmons in that Warriors game, Simmons and Embiid together was really, really fun to watch because those guys were balling. They're so athletic. And Simmons, who still just can't shoot, but he's like crashing the boards now.

And he's really, he's figuring out when Embiid, when they go to Embiid on the post or whatever, how to kind of lurk around on the baseline the way Rondo used to, and then come flying in for the offensive rebound when the shot's going up. He's, the frustrating thing for me is I just want to see him do the magic showtime thing on fast breaks. And the league doesn't really do that anymore.

I almost would have rather seen Ben Simmons 35 years ago when we didn't have threes. I wish we would put Ben Simmons in a time machine and have him go back to 1984. We need to see him. He needs to start at this point in the season trying one face-up jumper from 16 feet or beyond. Just one. Just try one game to show us that you care and that you're trying. House, that's not who he is. That's an important part of your game. That's like me telling you I just want two salads from House a week.

Just two salads. That's it. That's not who you are, house. You're not going to have a salad. But I'm willing to change. I mean, you know, we're in our, we're in a bump year this year. You and I are in a contract year. Big things are happening for us.

Yeah. So I might try a salad. Carl Anthony Towns and Mitchell, I've been happy with how they've been playing. Mitchell especially, because Mitchell, I was ready to drop out of the top 25, but he's been on a nice little run the last five, six weeks or so,

and whatever happened to him in the first, I don't know, 20 games of the year or whatever, it seems like he snapped out of it. Interesting guy. I think two things real quick on him. He believed he read too much of his things real quick on him. He believed he read too much of his own press over

the summer. He enjoyed himself too much this summer. And Utah played I think the hardest schedule in the league the first part of the season. If not the hardest one of the top five. And they didn't do great with it. And he didn't do great with it. They're in a much more favorable zone

right now schedule wise. And this is the D Mitch that we want to see. So just zipping through the rest of the list a little bit. Oladipo had to drop to 23 cause he got hurt. No apologies, Victor, but you're hurt. Marvin Bagley made a nice little jump up to 24. I don't know if you've been watching the bag man lately, but first of all, really kind of gifted offensively already. I mean, we knew he was talented, but is doing some stuff on isos and low post stuff that I thought he was maybe a year away from potentially. The other thing I like, he's always around the rim offensively. Shots are up and he's just kind of, his hands are kind of just around the rim. Like he's trying to get tip-ins and he's just active.

He is, he's very, very likable. I've enjoyed him. I don't know how much, I know you hate the Kings, so you're a tough guy to ask, but. No, how dare, see, now you're trying to sow them seeds, them dirty seeds. I love, this is the very best case scenario for him, and I love the two-hand. He's got really soft hands, both hands around the rim,

the point you just made, and he's on a super streak. Somebody sent us, or one of your guys wrote it, about very quietly, he's strung together 10 or 12 games of double digit points double digit rebounds around there and you know filling up the stat sheet steals blocks this is the guy that they they drafted and who they thought they were they were getting the only thing that that is tough for them is there's a there's a franchise transcendent player that was available to them that they didn't take. But if you take that out of the mix,

they're getting great value for that pick. Bagley looks like he's going to be a damn good player and a cornerstone player along with your boy D-Fox. And Buddy, who's been awesome this year. Buddy shot like 50% from three last month. He was like 52%. He's been out of his mind. I'm so happy they fucked up.

They'll never admit it. They fucked up. Oh, they're coming for you now. No, no, listen. They fucked up. They didn't realize Luka was as good as he was. And Luka has a chance to be a generational player and you can never pass that up in a draft ever.

So they fucked up. But this could have been so much worse. They could have taken Mo Bamba third. Mo Bamba just got hurt again today and he's done jack shit all year. He's got, now he's got a stress fracture, but can you imagine that? I mean, the old school Kings move would have been not taking Luca and then having Mo Bamba and his stress fracture as a rookie year. And like, that would have been the classic path for the Kings. Bagley's a really good consolation prize for missing out on a generational player. I'm all in.

I really like him. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Luka. It goes without saying. But you know, this is weird. Only you're going to understand this, but he's the kind of guy we used to love playing with when we played pickup all the time. Absolutely. You know what I mean? I would love when we played pickup all the time? Absolutely.

You know what I mean? I would love to have played pickup with Bagley because, as you said, soft hands. He's around the rim. He's going to tip in my misses. He's always ready for the ball. We can throw in the ball and cut and do stuff. I think he'd be fun to play with.

Yeah. He plays like he went to Duke for four years. He plays like he has all the fundamentals of his game. It's a unique kind of trait for a guy coming out after one year. A little reminiscent of Chris Mee from the old Holy Cross days. Oh, Chris Mee. Chris Mee had both hands. Very soft.

Shout out to Chris Mee. Lefty? Yeah. A little Chris Mee me ish all right nobody knows what we're talking about um so just jumping around a little bit i'd knocked eight and back from 24 to 32 i i'm not giving up on him i don't even i'm not even gonna raise any red flags i'm just i'm still not totally sure what he is and where he fits into

whatever the league is now. Well, Phoenix has some identity defining yet to go. They don't know. Their GM has been there for two and a half months. I mean, they got their own shit to figure out. I know what

Bagley is and I know what Jaron Jackson is. And I think I would rather have those guys than Aiden. But I also wouldn't rule out a world in which some team figures out exactly how to use him correctly and it becomes what it becomes. But I just think...

For me, Jaron Jackson and Bagley, there's no way they're not making it. Then ripping through a couple more guys, a couple newcomers. John Collins on the Hawks. I mean, can we talk about the Hawks for a minute? The Hawks, we're done. They have 18 wins already. We thought they were going to have 18 wins all year,

and it's because of John Collins. Are we sure it's not the Winging It podcastins are we sure it's not the winging it podcast are we sure it's not the podcast bump the podfather brings brings bays and vc might have been any and he might have something to do with it i watched the hawks last night they dismembered now i i mean i gotta try really hard not to use a whole bunch of foul language talking about my washington professional baseball franchise now. Yeah. It's a sad day.

But it's not a surprise that Washington tried to beat them by outscoring them, and it didn't work out. Because the Washington roster right now is Bradley Beal and 11 bench guys. It's the best bench team in the NBA. It's just that all of them have to play. Yeah. Well, the Hawks are pretty good. But the Hawks were good.

Yeah. Herder. Herder's good. They took it 19th. Yeah, no. I almost put him in honorable mention. He's perfect for this NBA. I almost put him in honorable mention.

I really did. I actually thought about it. He is a ringer staff favorite. And then Collins has been good. Trey Young is still all over the place, but at least he's not. Yeah. At least he can like run the, run the offense. And they have some other guys I like too. Um, Torian Prince, Torian Prince is good. And, uh, I don't know. They're playing hard. I'm shocked. I, all indications said they were going to try to go

like 12 and 70, but the reality is like Collins is like a 22 and 10 every night now. You know? Just too much pride too. That's part of the thing that I admire. They're just not out there to run through games and collect paychecks. They play. I'll leave you with this and then we'll go. Cause I promised it would only be 25 minutes.

What's the most fun Zion destination right now? What would be your power rankings? Because I think Atlanta has to be in that conversation. Oh, wow. I didn't really think about them, but I will have them in the top five now that you mentioned it, because I agree. There's so much that could be done there.

Cleveland's worst case scenario, right? Huh? Cleveland's worst case scenario. Oh, Huh? Cleveland's worst case scenario. Oh, that's the worst. If there's a God in heaven, Cleveland ends up with the eighth pick. It's like, all right, enough with Cleveland. Enough with Cleveland. Enough with generational superstars going to Cleveland.

We've had it. We've had it already. We did it. The Knicks is the team. The Knicks is the team for Zion. I want basketball saved in New York. I want Zion and Kyrie and Dennis Smith. The fuck?

Kyrie? I'm just saying. This is the team. And Jimmy the Dick Butler. I just want basketball to be relevant again in New York. And I think the basketball gods looking down, if they, if there was ever a moment to, to hold their nose and reward James Dolan, this would be it. What about KD Kemba and Zion? That's a pretty good team. That's that that's

pretty good in the East. They would win a lot of games. I believe the other fun thing is they actually do have enough to trade for Anthony Davis in June, potentially, if that is how it plays out. Because let's say they don't get the number one pick. Let's say they get the fourth pick. And then you give them the fourth pick, Knox, the two Dallas picks they got. You give them a mother load of picks, basically.

Dennis Smith, throw him in there, try to get David. You're at least at the Davis table with that trade, especially if KD is coming, which that would be my bet. I'll just put it that way. Interesting. Well, when you do a trade like, when you do the Porzingis trade, you're basically saying you know you're getting KD, or else you're the dumbest franchise that ever walked the earth.

If you don't know for sure you're getting KD, you're morons. This is the segue I was looking for yeah because we're not going all this whole conversation without me talking about john wall's achilles tendon yeah um the knicks did i believe a very sound risk assessment in a vacuum of what porzingis on a max contract would represent to them in view of the two injuries that he's already experienced in his professional basketball career. Yeah. And I think it was perfectly sound risk assessment. Like we can't, we're going to offer the max to this guy. He will take it because every rookie that's been offered the max takes it. And then what are we stuck with? Can he flourish here? Can we help him avoid injury here?

What do we have around him? I don't mind that trade one bit. I think from Washington, D.C., sitting and objectively observing the way that went down, I thought they did fine in that trade. I thought they got good assets. They cleared the decks. They're ready for New York to be back on the basketball map. Unlike what's going

on here in Chocolate City, the basketball team, I don't know what to do. What are we supposed to do? John Wall tore his Achilles tendon in his home. They want me to believe that he slipped and fell in his home. Bill Simmons,

you're almost 50 years old. I'm almost 50 years old. Let me tell you the last time I slipped and fell in my home. I can't think of it. The slip and fall in our home is what professional athletes use when some shady shit has gone down that they had no business being involved in. Under the influence, not under the influence. I don't know. The last prominent athlete I can think of who fell down and derailed a terrific athletic moment was Dustin Johnson, who slipped on a slippery floor the week of the Masters and

missed the Masters in a good chunk of the season. We're supposed to pay $170, $180 million to a guy whose entire basketball identity is built on his physical strength and speed, homie is out of the league as far as I'm concerned. And all I want to do is S-T-R-E-T-C-H. What am I supposed to do? That's all. Incredible. I'm going to give my thoughts on that one second. I want to do give my thoughts on that in one second. I want to do this read for you. Here's the thing about being a Boston sports fan this century, House. With 12 titles and counting, it just completely ruins you as a sports fan.

Suddenly you expect a title every year, or in our case, every four months. But that's the funny thing about better. Once you've experienced it, you can't go back. Like how we've won 12 titles this century, which is the gist of that Hulu commercial I've been seeing everywhere. It's all about how Hulu has tons of shows and movies, exclusive originals like The Handmaid's Tale plus live TV for sports. And that once you get Hulu, it'll ruin TV for you forever. Start your free Hulu trial today at Hulu, it'll ruin TV for you forever. Start your free Hulu trial today at Hulu, H-U-L-U. You might've heard of it,.com.

Live TV plan required for live content. Restrictions apply. Somebody wrote that for me and I just couldn't wait to read it to you, House. I hate Hulu. You love Hulu. I have it. I have it. We pay for it, but I hate thatulu. You love Hulu. I have it. I have it. We pay for it, but I hate that ad read.

F you, Hulu. So the wizard's thing. Anytime somebody falls in the dark, slips and falls, falls in the bathroom, I'm dubious no matter who it is. Like if, if it was nephew Kyle came in and was like, sorry, I'm late. I fell in my apartment. I would just, I'm just, I'm just that kind of person. I'm just naturally suspicious of all people. So yeah. Do I wonder if there's a more of a story coming out? I don't know. I, you would really have to, I was thinking about, you really have to fall down the stairs, right? That would be the only way this could happen or miss a step. I could see if it was one of those

things where you don't realize it's a step that you don't see and your foot hits it wrong and it could just, and he's also hurt anyway, right? He has a bad knee. Yeah. Well, and if I was going to be generous, the very best case scenario is it was the middle of the night and he was carrying his son and he took a wrong step. That's what, you know, if you want to be, if you want to be generous the very best case scenario is it was the middle of the night and he was carrying his son and he took a wrong step that that's what you know if you want to be if you want to be a john wall apologist and come up with a scenario where that's plausible you say he's already kind of limping around so he's not under normal body weight you know distributed evenly he's carrying his boy it's 2 30 in the morning, how about how old is his son? Not even two months, maybe? Three months?

Oh, because I was going to say, if he has a kid that's like, if he's like a four-year-old boy, then you have all those Legos and little trucks on the floor. I could see, like, tearing an Achilles, stepping on that. I don't know. I'm going to say, we'll see if Kyle tears his Achilles in the next year with some shady injury.

How would you put that on me, Bill? Yeah, I don't know. It's always weird. I remember there was a Red Sox pitcher who cut his hand once in his hotel, reaching for a glass that broke on his bed. And it was like one of the all-time dog ate the homework thing. This doesn't remind me of that. I believe in John Wall more than you

on this story house. I think you're just scarred by John Wall. That's fine. You believe the story. When's he going to play basketball again? It's going to be a while,

unfortunately. Wait, we didn't do the Zion Power Rankings. So you have the Knicks one. I also have the Knicks one. I also have the Knicks one. I know I have so many Knicks fans in my life. I know how much joy it would bring them. I think I might have Atlanta too. Oh, wow. Cause Washington would be fun. Win the lottery though. They're going to win too many games. Yeah. But they also, yeah, they would.

Washington, now that John Wall is out for like a year and a half, that probably wouldn't be too much fun if they got him. Phoenix just doesn't deserve him. They've just been bad for four years now, just awful. That would kind of make me mad. And then the wild card is if Dallas could somehow get in the top five. Do you see they're shelving Porzingis? Well, they should shelve Porzingis.

They're going to win 35 games, though. They're not going to get in the top five. They have to trade into it. No, but they get to like seven. The team, unfortunately, that I fear getting him is effing Chicago. And they are absolutely tanking enough to get him. God, if they got Chicago... That is a franchise in disarray.

That cheapskate Reinsdorf, he'd be like renting Zion out for kids' birthday parties for like 500 bucks to make a little extra money. I mean, just think what Jim Boylan would have him doing in terms of burpees

and bear crawls. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah. I can't wait to see how it goes. Are you watching Zion? Because I keep getting sucked in. I was watching him on Saturday. You keep getting sucked in.

He's the most magnetic, mesmerizing college player since Kevin Durant. I know. What is there to get sucked in by? He's incredible. Every time he's on the floors, something incredible can happen. He's the second coming of LeBron.

I hope you're watching all of him. Well, college basketball is bad. That's my issue. The regular season college basketball is just hard to watch. But he's not bad. I'm watching them play St. John's, and the score was like 40 to 5. But Zion, like... It's old school.

Him around the rim is really out of control I really love it I really hope he goes to the right team I hope he goes to a team with a point guard who can throw him an alley-oop I hope he goes to a team with the right coach and a couple guys that play hard and just kind of get what he is

Charks wrote this piece about how he's like a point center, basically, and I agree. I hope whoever gets him really explores the studio space of Zion and tries him in a whole different way. You and me both. Fingers crossed. Fairway Rowland, when is Fairway Rowland coming back? Next one on this coming

Monday, we'll have a wrap-up of the Pebble Beach Pro-Am and look forward to... Oh, shit. I don't know what tournament comes next. Is that sponsored by someone? Let me look it up real quick. No, I think we...

It might be Riviera. We're leaving this in. What? Hold on. I think it's Riviera. Hold on. Podcast. Podcast. podcast podcast definitely that taking this i have to type with one hand so i can hold the mic

you know the insane thing is i haven't even drinking february 14th to 17th riviera golf course that is exactly what we're previewing yeah the genesis open at riviera tiger is back in la it's a it's his foundation that's one of the beneficiaries of this tournament The Genesis Open at Riviera. Tiger is back in LA. It's his foundation that's one of the beneficiaries of this tournament. It's going to be a terrific preview. Chris Vernon and I will have some awful selections for ways to lose money, and we think we're going to have a pretty great surprise guest. Awesome. House, a pleasure as always.

Sorry about the John Wiles news, and we'll talk to you soon. All right, before we get to Spike Lee, if you are listening to this podcast, you've already figured out smart ways to spend your time. Here's another one. The New York Times Crossword app. The Crossword app is a fun, clever way

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old Sopranos episodes. So there you go. That's how exciting my life is I've been watching old Sopranos episodes. So there you go. That's how exciting my life is right now, baby. Sopranos! Check it out. Download the New York Times crossword app at newyorktimes.com slash mini. And since we're here,

check out the awesome basketball podcast we have in here. Not just the Ringer NBA show, which is going four to five times a week. These days, winging it with Vince Carter, Kent Baysmore, Andy Finberg, just an unbelievable slate of guests so far.

And then the JJ Redick podcast as well. So, and who knows, we may be adding another basketball player after the all-star break. You never know with us, check all those out. Speaking of basketball coming up for the first time ever, Spike Lee. Here he is.

All right. We're taping this Friday morning. The NBA is basically exploding. Porzingis traded yesterday. This morning, Kyrie made it seem like he just doesn't know what he's going to do starting July. Now everybody thinks KD and Kyrie are coming to the Knicks. Randomly, just today, Spike Lee in the house.

First time we've ever done a podcast, and this is like suddenly the best day in Knicks history. Well, thank you for having me, and I don't think that it's random I'm here today. You think? The spirits work in a mysterious way. It really does. I'm 61, and I've noticed that very rare things that's random or coincidence. Things, spirits, ancestors, all types of stuff are in play.

And I've had this podcast for 12 years. I've been waiting for you. Now, all of a sudden, today is the day you show up. That's not a coincidence. I don't think it is. It's not random. Glad to be here, my man. Glad to be here as well. Cool, all of a sudden, today is the day you show up. That's not a coincidence. I don't think it is. It's not random. Glad to be here, my man. Glad to be here as well.

Cool, cool, cool. And you're wearing your Yankee hat. And you're wearing your Patriots. Well, who's your football team? New York football giants. Okay. But growing up in Brooklyn, here's my four guys in Brooklyn.

Okay. Mays, Ali, Walt Clyde Frazier, and Joe Willie Namath oh wow Namath when you when you

in fourth grade we had a teacher named Miss Irba blonde hair full breast and her claim to fame was she went out

to date with Joe Namath yo wow and we loved her and date with Joe Namath. Yo, wow. And we loved her. And I asked Joe, if I asked the first time, I said, Joe, do you remember this woman?

We had a teacher. She said she went out to you. So Namath, Joe Willie says, so Spike, what'd she look like? I said, well, she was blonde. I said, you gotta give me more than that. I said, she's got a box of them and blonde. I said you gotta give me more than that I said she's got a box of them and blonde

I said Spike we died laughing so you wrote a basketball book before I did and it was all about how you grew up in MSG yeah

I was at game 8 I mean excuse me I was at game 7 game I mean, excuse me, I was at game seven. Game eight would have been amazing. No, no. May 8th. Yeah. You went. I was there.

The Willis-Reed game. Greatest moment in Knicks history. You know what? Until today. Well, no. We won another championship. But you know what was amazing about that? Because Havachek got hurt.

Would you stop? Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Because Havachek got hurt. Would you stop? Look at him. Come on. That was a good... Havachek gave you that championship. He's playing left-handed in game seven. And I guess Buckner gave the Mets one too. Uh-oh.

I guess Tim Wakefield gave us one too. We go back and forth all day, baby. I'm ready. I'm ready all day for this. I know my stuff. I know. I'm not one of these okie-dokie, Rudy people.

Guess you got me. Anyway. So, the Lakers. Yeah. Will Chamberlain. Jerry West. Elgin Baylor.

Layup line. The biggest roar I ever heard in my life. The entire Laker team stopped froze turned around the whole team three Hall of Famers

the whole team stopped their lap line to see Willis Reek drag his leg on the court and Knicks won a championship. Then he hit the first two baskets. And Walt Frazier had 36 points. I've been like- Walt Frazier was amazing in that game.

What was the loudest word? When he walked out or the two shots? No, when he came out. I mean, I've been a lot of sporting events. Yeah. But when Willis came on court and I have a prized possession, the great Nick MSG photographer, George Kalinsky.

Yeah. I have the only photograph of Willis Reed getting a needle. Oh, I heard it was like a, wasn't it like a two-foot needle? They had horse needles back then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the only print signed by Kalinsky and Willis Reed. The needle's this big. Yeah. And he's on the trainer's table.

I mean, and this is like 1970 when they didn't know smart ways to do this. They basically got veterinarian equipment to try to knock somebody's leg out. I mean, even today, though, football. How many fingers? The other, football. How many fingers? The other one finger. How many fingers? Oh, go out there. Right.

I mean, concussion stuff, that's new. So I was saying, we did a podcast yesterday after Porzingis got traded, and I was saying that I felt like the Knicks fans had replaced Red Sox fans since we won. And here's why. I wasn't. How many years? How many years was it?

You haven't won for 46 years, but we hadn't won for 86. But the point, the point being. No, we got for the Cubs in that too, though. But the Cubs won. I said, but until.

Yeah. Then it was 1908, right? But here's the thing. You have, you have these generations of Knicks fans, right? The Knicks start in 1946. Like,

my friend William Goldman, the screenwriter who was going to those games all the time, he just died. Yeah. Late, my friend William Goldman, the screenwriter who was going to those games all the time, he just died. Yeah. Late, great. 45 years of his life

at the end there, he doesn't get to see it. But you have all these generations. I think that's what makes it different. You have Knicks fans ranging from age two to age 90

that have been kind of living and dying with this. Well, there's always hope. Now you have it. And now if we get, you know, what's messed up, now they changed the rule.

Yeah. So now it's the three worst teams get 14% chance. And they had to do that because Philly, they were tanking every year. Five straight years. So we get blessed by the basketball guys from above

and we get Zion it's over have you seen Zion in person no the game they played the guard

now was out of town but is this going to be like the guard is going to be rocking and we get

we have again let me knock on this is a nice table here. You can, this is wood. Yeah. Is this Boston wood? It might be a reverse jinx. We brought it from South Boston, but it's wood.

Oh, I'm not tapping on that. So you think it's, this is set up here. This is a dope bean double cross having me tapping on soft Boston wood. Not going for it. Unfortunately, we got it in LA. I wish we had one in Boston. But, Durant? Yeah.

Kyrie? Zion? Without me. Dennis Smith Jr.? Would you just stop making movies? What would happen? You retire at age 61? You're done?

Nah, I got another 20. You have another 20? Kurosawa was in his 80s. Clint Eastwood's like 84. Who? Clint Eastwood's like 84, right? Well, I'd rather quote Kurosawa. Okay.

Fair. And Fellini. No disrespect to Clint, but... I'd rather quote Kurosawa okay fair and Bellini no disrespect to Clint but that was a little no not at all because

in film school I saw Rashomon and that was the gave me an idea of my first film she's gonna have it so that's why

no disrespect to Clint but and I got to meet uh Akira. So, but this is. Well, can you ask what your reaction was to Porzingis hearing about the trade? I was shocked. Were you upset?

I don't know because I was doing interviews yesterday. So I turned my phone off. I turn it on. Oh no. It almost exploded in my head.. I turn it on. Oh, no. It almost exploded in my head. That's a WTO. What happened? What happened?

Yeah. I said, didn't you hear? Were you a believer in Porzingis? We got hurt. Because he had that 10-game stretch at the start of last year when it looked like he was going to be like a 30-and-12 guy. And then he tailed off a little bit. He tailed, look, I was not that kid who was crying or saying at the draft.

Yeah. I like this game. And here's the thing, though. In today's sports world, the players have so much control. And if you have a guy that doesn't want to be there, then you got to get what you can for him. That's just the way it is. To have a guy on a team that doesn't want to be there

and the whole team sees that, it's not a good mix. My reaction when the trade, we did a podcast right after, and I was like, this is terrible, classic Knicks. But then the only thing in their benefit is I heard what you just said I've heard over and over again from people connected to them. And I was like, he didn't want to be there. He was going to leave. Plus, we got two first-round picks, too, which I didn't mention. The second one was nice.

But at the very least, you can throw those picks into another trade to get something else. So they have more options than they've had. The problem is to give up on a 23-year-old guy on a rookie deal who has the potential to be a franchise guy. That's pretty rough. But you have to look

at that injury, though. Right. And it's height. The fact that the 7'3 and up guys don't really... Yeah, some guys 6'4, but to be 7'3

and have that injury? Yeah. Yeah, out of the tall, tall, tall guys, Kareem was the only one who seemed to just be able to be durable. You can't leave out Wilt, though. But Wilt got hurt that one year.

Remember? He blew out his kneecap that one year. He missed the whole year. But he came back. He came back. Yeah. But Wilt was built like, you know. Did you see Wilt when he was, at what point did you see Wilt when he was at what point did you see him in person

later on later on I mean my first memories of going to Nick game my father was the 60 18

before they made the busher trade that team was good I mean we had the pieces but it was when the busher came that's when it really

came together. Lake Great. You know, he pitched for the Tigers. I know. The White Sox are Tigers. No, he pitched for the Tigers. Yeah. The busher.

And let's talk about this. What do you think your theory is? Yeah. When the Lake Great, Dave the busher, put his hand into the thing for the draft, was the envelope in the draft was an envelope it was an envelope in the microwave or

come out of the freezer it was Stern Stern put it in there I'm saying about when he was picking so you know no

the busher his the people would pick they put their hand in the thing the envelope it wasn't David

Stern no Stern was the one who picked him out in No, Stern was the one who picked him out in a row. Stern was the one. The thing was a little bent. That makes it worse, though. It was a little bent

on the side. The commissioner was, I thought it was. No, it was Stern, but it was a little bent on the side. I freeze-framed it because technology is better.

It did look like he picked the one that one of the sides was. So, Dave, I thought it was just a butcher. So, Stern was in on him so if he did pull it off

it's the greatest magician trick of all time if they had frozen the one envelope and he just like I heard it was hot or cold

just feel the hot one feel the cold if you eat a one it's like that's Patrick Ewing who uh who's

also the next day got my season tickets for the Knicks 84 the very next day oh got my season tickets for the Knicks. 84. The very next day. Oh, that was 85.

Year after Bernard. Whatever. Patrick Ewing. Yeah, spring of 85. I was online, 6 a.m. the next morning, got my season tickets. Were you a Bernard guy or no? Bernard's from my neighborhood. Okay. Bernard was incredible that year.

Bernard's from my neighborhood, Fort was incredible there Bernard's from my neighborhood Fort Greene there's a hospital in my neighborhood Fort Greene, Brooklyn where Bernard was born there Albert

Mike Tyson and Michael Jordan it's called Cumberland Hospital it's amazing and Little Anthony Little Anthony Imperials and Dana Dane

all born in the hospital in my neighborhood in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York. Bernard went head-to-head against the 84 Celtics. Oh, he can't. And Maxwell said he's not getting 40 minutes.

Cornbread, he said that bitch didn't get it. And he gave it again. And he did it again. It was amazing. So every time the Celtics come to the Garden because he does the radio. Yeah. I always look at Cornbread and he says,

don't come over here because he knows I'm going to bring up Bernard King. You used your movies to attack Larry Bird. I didn't appreciate it. But here's the thing though.

I didn't appreciate it at all. But here's the thing though. You said he was ugly. No, no. You put John Savage in a Bird t-shirt and had him run over somebody's sneakers.

I saw what you were doing. Those weren't sneakers. Those were Jordan 4s. Yeah, exactly. No, this is real. Here's the thing. I have always admired Larry Bird. I've never said he—

As you were disparaging him? No, no. Here's— Use your characters to disparage him. Who's the ghost? I mean, who's the guest on this? Here's the ghost I mean who's the guest on this here's the thing though I've never ever ever

Larry Bird's the Hall of Famer great player my comments about Larry Bird were not directed to him it was directed

to the white media pushed him into position of being the savior which he didn't want. He didn't ask for that.

I agree with that. And so I met Larry recently. Really? Yeah. We had a great talk. Did he know about the movie? Yes, he, man. The first time the movie came out,

I was sitting in the court sign and Danny was looking right at him and Danny was sitting right next to him. Danny was pointing me and said, yeah, that's the guy right there. So you guys, Danny, that's true. Here's the thing. I had the utmost respect for Larry Bird. Larry Bird,

all he wanted to do was play ball. It's true. He had an unfortunate situation where because he was so great and he was white and he was Boston,

he was put in the position of being the savior. I remember, if you watch back in NBA, CBS Sports, I'm not going to name announcers, Larry Bird was at the Boston Garden 6 a.m. this morning

and he put up 20,000 shots. Kareem didn't work. Well, and Magic too. Jabbar. Magic put in more work in his game than anybody. I know, but that's not,

that was not the narrative. Yeah, it was always bird running in the garden around the laps. I get it. So my stuff

was not meant to be at, and Larry, we, look, in fact, when I saw, when I met

Larry earlier last week, I brought up the whole thing, that famous picture, him choking. Him and Dr. J. I went to that game. So I'll tell you what a gentleman Larry is. He said, well, he'd plow everything, downplay everything. Then I spoke to Barkley and he told me what the real story was. Yeah. But that showed you how Greer's general library, he didn't want to get into that.

Well, he loved Dr. J. He loves Dr. J. Yeah. So he wouldn't, he said, Spike, you know, we just had a, those things happen. You know what happened, though, because I went to that game. I know, yeah. He was busting his ass. I know.

And he started talking shit to him, and Jewish didn't like it. I know. Yeah. So I had the utmost respect for Larry. Great player. One of the greatest of all time. So we're cool. He used to be great in MSG.

He used to love playing there. He used to have great games there. Everybody. All the real players would come to prove it at MSG. If you come to the Garden, you're not going out the night before. Right.

That's one night after the game, especially the team has to stay another two, but you come to the Garden, you're going to bed at nine o'clock. Right.

You might put other stuff on another city, but New York, it's the world's greatest arena. And the other day, James Harden. He's 61. What did he say before the game? I've never had a garden moment.

Yeah. But luckily, he one point short of tying Melo's record. And Mello, oh, amazing story. I did this film, documentary called Colby Doing Work. Yeah. So we did the thing, but for the DVD release, we wanted to have, what do you call those things? Commentary. Commentary. Thank you.

So the only time he could do it when the Lakers came to the Garden. So, we were scheduled to do the commentary after the game

and that's when we scored 60 points. Oh my God. Seriously? At the commentary after the game we scored 60. Broke the Garden.

They broke the Garden. He said, Spike, this is all you're fucking for. I'm blaming this shit on you. I knew we were doing a commentary. I was breaking the record. Well, you went to the Carmelo game, right? I was there. He left some on the table.

He came out with like four or five minutes left. He could have gone for 70. It always drives me crazy. I saw Carmelo the other day and I said, do you know about the reason? Yeah, people hit me up. Yeah. Camilla.

He could have gone for at least 68. Give me your top five. Because you did this in your book. Players? Yeah, your top five right now. Teams or players? Players. Because you did this in your book,

but you wrote your book 20 years ago? Yeah. 15 years ago yeah 15 years ago i know there's this debate current debate about who's the greatest of all time i don't want to do that because i think it's air specific i have to i have to mention that knowing that this debate's come about since what lebron said yeah and i don't know you know you bring a team back down three to one i don't know how to mix, you bring a team back down 3-1, I don't know how to mix your greatest player of all. So for me, players I saw, MJ, born in Brooklyn, New York.

You grew up in North Carolina. Michael Jordan. Okay. Kobe. Kobe, too. Okay. Three. Le. Three. LeBron.

You say it sadly. No, I got respect for LeBron. Even after he didn't come to play for you in 2010? That, he has to. Look, my thing is this. Do what's best for you. Is it true you made a video for the recruiting video for 2010? No, I was one of, a whole bunch of people did it.

So you did? Yeah. That thing was not well thought out. It was. Because LeBron and Wade were going there, and then they changed their minds. It did not go well. Something messed up. Yeah, something happened.

One day, the real story, when LeBron retires, then he'll tell what happened with the Knicks. I've been saying the real story from what I know for a while, and nobody actually believes me. That LeBron and Wade were going there, and then it got screwed up. We'll find out the real story in like 10 years. Yeah, once, I mean, this is Wade's last year. Yeah.

The truth always comes out eventually. All right, so LeBron three. So you got Jordan, Kobe. Magic. Magic four. Kareem? Kareem, Kareem, bird,

six man. Look, as you always get in trouble when you list, you know, any list. So, but bird, bird, look,

I got love for, and the thing about that, I heard is that the brothers love Larry bird. So that whole thing. So he was, he was cool with everybody. He was cool with everybody. And he could talk smack. He could talk smack.

So it's unfortunate that, in my part, I was trying to use Larry Bird to make a point on the media how they hoisted him up. And then, well, you can't forget, you had the whole Boston Celtics, LA Lakers dynamic. And you look at the history of Boston and African Americans, look what, I mean, read Bill Russell's book. I mean, the Red Sox, the last team,

Pumpsie Green, the last. So they ain't changing your Yorkie way for a reason behind that. So there's a complicated history with African-Americans and Boston. Oh, no doubt. It's gotten a lot better. They got a Puerto Rican manager. I went to see Russell at the end of 2012 because we did this documentary about him for NBA TV.

And the whole premise was like, why don't you ever go back to Boston? Trying to figure out what happened. They broke his house and defecated on his bed. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, there were like 9,000 people going to playoff games and they're selling out hockey. So, I mean, he had real reasons. They weren't selling out those games in the... Hell no.

They didn't start selling out until the 70s. So even the Auerbach teams, they weren't selling out? No. Bob Cousy? No. Tommy Heinsohn? No.

None of them guys, they weren't selling out? Part of it might have been basketball just wasn't as popular. The finals weren't sold out or the regular season? The finals had to be sold out. I don't know.

I don't think it was great. The next thing. What next thing? Well, just the fact that you've been terrible this whole century, basically,

except for like a nine-month span. Like, at what point do you look at this big picture and go, why is God doing this to me?

Well, what do Red Sox fans say? What do Cub fans say? You guys got there first. What was the cruelest moment of the last 20 years for you? Well, those, I would tell you that those Pacer-Knicks series. So you're going into the 90s?

Yes. That's how far I have to go back. But when Reggie, look, I also like to say me and Reggie are cool. When these things happened 20 years ago, you know, all's good, all love, all good. When Reggie went off that game five, I woke up the next day. Because every morning I go to the corner

bodega, get the papers, get my coffee. Bagel, cream cheese, cut down the middle. The bodega. And so I go to papers. I'm on the front page, New York Newsday, New York Post, and New York Daily News. I'm on the front page. And game six is Market Square Arena.

I'm like, I mean, I got to go. You were courtside. I know, but I'm saying, though, it was a minute, though, that I want to go. So I land in Indianapolis. And there's like five TV crews there. And so I didn't go straight to markets. I went to visit Mike Tyson in prison. So all the inmates, they were getting on us.

Nick sucks, Nick sucks, you know, that stuff. Wow, you're getting heckled by Indianapolis inmates. Yes. That's rough. It's a true story. So game six ended, you know, closing minutes. And the ushers start to surround the court where they have a rope to stop fans from storming the field. And thank God John Starks went berserk.

We won. Because if Nixon lost game six, I'd have went berserk. We won. Because if Nixon lost game six, I would have had to move. Right. I would have had to move. I don't know how it was going, but it would have been that serious. We did the 30 for 30. And then Patrick hit the shot. Yeah, yeah.

We did the 30 for 30 on this. You said you were actually in fear a little bit. Oh, Indianapolis? Yeah. The Klan was founded in Indianapolis. Yeah. No, me and my guy, Alec Palagon, we had, and then, what's the owner, David Simon? Yeah.

His son is a fucking asshole. Or Herb Simon. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm trying to say we need security. Yeah. And they're looking at him. Yeah.

He's like, he came here. So it was, I could, I could have gotten hurt. And then that was game three. So then I had to call the NBA office. Then they assigned someone to me from the league.

Yeah. But, I mean, if you saw 3 and 30, you know, the pennants? Yeah. They would turn the pennants upside down so it was a hood clan. It's in the piece. I remember. So. I don't think that would go It's in the piece. I remember. So. I don't think that would go over well

in the internet era. They would be sending those pictures out pretty fast. Well, they got those faces. But anyway, that was Patrick and Patrick

jumped on the store's famous picture, jumping on the scores famous picture jumping on the scores table so he went to Houston yeah up 3-2

going into game 6 here's a story my man you know Al Palagonia yeah so Al said

Spike I got a scheme so he was tight with Vernon Maxwell. So, he had Vernon Maxwell up all. He had Vernon Maxwell up to 8 o'clock in the morning. Oh, that was smart. Didn't work. It didn't matter.

We understand. He does it all. He did it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, it's like Iverson some guys just didn't sleep oh yeah and then

you know there's always gonna be a talk and I love Starks is my one of my favorite players and what is he three for 21

something like that in game seven. But game six, like, they had a chance to win in the last minute. And that was my fundamental problem with that team, though. The thing I think, Patrick was opening somebody up. Yeah. But who's the guy to guard? He was great with the Daleks Mavericks. Derek Harper.

No, the other one. Oh, Rolando. Yeah. Rolando, I don other one. Oh, Orlando. Yeah. Orlando, I don't want to get my brother in trouble, but he would go to his grave thinking that he would have hit some shots. Right. But he didn't.

Wasn't that the fundamental problem with that team though? That in, in a must-win game in the road, the second kind of creator slash score in that team was kind of John Starks, which I know he's just too hit or miss I know but John I love you baby

so no disrespect but is I don't put that's not John Starks can't put himself in a game right he's gonna do that

that's on Pat Riley right we were born the same day March 20th so Pat you gotta give me some slack for this my brother

Rolando Rolando So, Pat, you got to give me some slack for this. My brother. Rolando. Rolando, you thought he should have gotten some more runs. He would tell you that himself. Yeah. What about, did Charles Smith get fouled? Is it the Bulls? Yeah. Four block steals in like two seconds.

He has to try to dunk the first one. Agreed. He was 6'11". He was to try to dunk the first one. Agreed. He was 6'11". He was going up like he was a guard. Yeah. See, I think that was the worst Knicks loss. That was the worst one. Two zip, right?

Two zip. They win the next two. You got game five, but you also have seven at home. And you basically, you win that game. Bulls probably win six, but then you have seven at home. And you basically, you win that game. Bulls probably win six, but then you got seven in MSG. You know, it'd been all, even if Charles, look, we're talking about something happened how many years ago?

25, 26. Even if Charles Smith had made that basket, Michael Jordan would have found a way to win that's the part everyone forgets about that game he still would have had like 8 seconds

left we've seen it before the man's ability to put his and to put his will

he would have found nowhere in the world was Michael Jordan going to lose the finals. Yeah. That's how I feel. It's not going to happen.

So, of course, Charles Smith should have made the layup, but MJ, the black cat, black Jesus. I thought Earl Monroe was the black Jesus.

What? I thought Earl Monroe was black Jesus. Wasn't that his actual nickname? Yeah, that was the first, but they had, you know. He passed it along? Passed it along. Yeah. But, and so that's why, that's why when you get into the whole LeBron,

how many finals has LeBron lost? A lot. He's also had some ignominious exits Jordan's really only had one bad one when he came back from baseball and Orlando beat them

that was the only time he's kind of didn't what's his name steal the ball from him or something like that Nick Anderson but he missed some

free throws though right in the finals in the finals I'm still I wrote my book 10 years ago, and it was like, look, Jordan's the best player ever. I'm not having this argument again. It's over.

And now LeBron. LeBron brought it back. Well, because of the longevity. I think that's what's changed. He's having this Kareem type, he's going to have a 20-year career where he basically has not gotten hurt and has been incredibly successful.

How long was he out for the groin injury? He just came back. I know. It was his first real injury. Yeah, 17 games. Here's the thing that I like to say, which a lot of, not you, but because you knew more than me, but if you add up all LeBron's playoff games.

It's like two more seasons. That's two more seasons. It might be three, actually. We got to do the math, but. Well, I looked it up. He's had, he's played at least two more seasons. That's two more seasons. It might be three, actually. We got to do the math, but. Well, I looked it up. He's had, he's played at least two more seasons. Because he's going to the last, he's going to the finals every year. Whether he wins or loses, he's going to the finals.

He's at 55,000 minutes if you add the NBA, the regular season, and the playoffs. But as you know, the playoff minutes are like, they count like a minute and a half. So it's so intense. So I don't know how long he's going to do it. Look, I a number love LeBron. And we have to pick sides because I don't think they like each other now. I think there's some beef. Between MJ and LeBron.

I think there's some beef. When has MJ ever said anything bad about anybody since he's- I didn't say anything publicly. I don't think MJ likes the GOAT stuff. When you're the GOAT, you don't like GOAT conversations. But all Michael said, he said this recently. I've never ever said I'm the greatest. Because I've never played against the great players of all the eras.

He's against that stuff. You think it's a coincidence that he has a 10-hour documentary coming out now celebrating his life, right? Is this LeBron? No, it's not. It's a great move by him. They've been working. That thing's been on the shelf for years. You looked at it for a while.

Well, they decided to go another direction. No, I remember when I was at ESPN, I remember we had that legendary. They went, and all I can say is they went another direction. You had it, though. You looked at it. I remember. My brother. I was there.

I wanted you to do it. They went another direction. Yeah. Greatest five New York City point guards ever. Well, I'm not going to put them in order, but. No, you don't have to put them in order. Tiny Archibald. Okay.

Give me the Mount Rushmore. Give me four. Mark Jackson. Charlie Scott was from Harlem. See, Charlie Scott, he's one of the lost guys. I know. Charlie Scott averaged like 35 a game in the NBA. Lenny Wilkins, Boys and Girls High School.

So you just listed four. How many did you say? How about most talented? Is Steph in the most talented four? They would, yeah. Lenny Wilkins, Boys and Girls High School. So you just listed four. How many did you say? How about Most Talented? Is Steph in the Most Talented four? Oh, how can I fit my brother? Hey, just Abraham Lincoln, a rail splitter. Same school as Jesus Shillsworth.

How much of He Got Game was Steph Marbury? Like stuff you witnessed? If Steph was right right here he was saying that this is about his about him that's not true but uh the similarity is because there's a point guard and you know

there's Brooklyn and there's Coney Island but the whole father son thing and all that other stuff but uh definitely but you know

who might make it too who he's gonna be a freshman next year uh oh Cole Anthony oh I saw highlights of this guy Who might make it to? Who? He's going to be a freshman next year. Uh-oh. Cole Anthony. Oh, I saw highlights of this guy. Greg Anthony.

He's lightning fast. The son of Crystal and Greg Anthony. Oh, he's Greg Anthony's son? Yes. I didn't know that. Yes. What school is he going to? He's at Oak Hill now.

That's where I saw it. And they have some other kid on that team who's supposedly amazing too. Yeah. The internet has a way of getting these kids into the public eye now. This guy, the son of Crystal and Greg Anthony, he's going,

I can't say where he's going, but he's coming to the league. Greg Anthony, respectable performance in that one fight when he was in street clothes, but still got involved. Remember that one? Oh, you know what killed us? That was a good one. What killed us?

That series against Miami. The fight. That was a good team. Where all the guys came off the... At the end of the game, why did Charlie Ward do that? The game's over. This is two times, because the 2007 Suns, that was the other team when that kind of changed

the course of history then the next game we had like eight players they suspended the whole team yeah it was terrible when did you feel like

when you were sitting courtside the guys in the other team were not only aware of you but felt like they had to interact with you in some way as like a rite of passage

well I wouldn't say interact here's the thing the whole thing with Reggie Miller blew it out of proportion because... I'm not even saying like talk of shit. No, no. I'm saying like pay respects. They always get lineups,

you know, the pregame lineup or halftime usually come by. So that's happened in the 90s? Like before Reggie? Yeah, do the right thing. Came out in 89. So it started there. It really started.

I wasn't sitting courtside. Yeah, when did you get courtside? I moved down every year. They moved me down. So I couldn't afford courtside. In fact, they weren't selling those seats

they were game out to celebrities then they got small we could sell these tickets right I can't remember the year but when I started sitting courtside

I mean I would always the players would you know where my seats is as they come around on the label line it's right there

you know in front of my seat so I've always been you know the thing with Reggie Miller, that put it out of, I'd say, under Michael Jordan. Well, that would have been stupid. You can't talk to him. Oh, it really was stupid.

You know, he would give me a wink away, but when he's on the court, man, he's not like, hey, you doing? Hey, you doing? It's all business. Let me tell you this story. I never said this before. Oh, I love those words when I was in

an early year when the Celtics were real good that's every year but when McHale that team yeah

Noah Parrish those guys you know look people the whole Boston New York thing is complicated but anyway

before back then the Garden thing is complicated. But anyway. Before, back then, the garden, they would let people even if they weren't in your seats, they would let you stand behind the basket and watch the late line. And I was like,

Mikael was looking at me. And I was looking at him. I said, Kevin Mikel, you suck. And he looked at me. He didn't say nothing. And I felt so stupid. I never said it before. And in just being courtside and the abuse that athletes have to take.

It's amazing that, and I say this being guilty of that. Right. And the way it looked to me, I said, I can't, and ever since I've been very- So you reined it in. How?

I mean, the abuse, it's amazing that athletes don't choke motherfuckers left and right. That the artiste melee hasn't happened nine times. Oh, yes. It's the abuse app. And because it's really, really horrible. I remember game six, 86 finals, Houston, Boston, the day after the Samson fight.

And Samson came into the guard and we were like ready for him. Samson is the sissy signs. I was holding one. And he came in and the anger it took him out he was done he had like eight points he was done

like he could feel you could feel the energy as you know everybody's not built for it some people you have people athletes that they'll use that

you know to get them fired up you know other people like they shrink. I had Denzel on the podcast about six months ago. Yeah?

And I asked him, well, you're not going to believe this, but he's very excited to talk about, I had heard a He Got Game story. So I'll get your version of it. That he was supposed

to lose the game 10-0 and he rope-a-doped Ray Allen. What is your version of the story? Well, first I'd like to say, we're talking about Denzel. Denzel played university at Fordham.

Yeah. Oh, he's proud to talk about it. And PJ Carisma was his coach. Yeah. So, in the scripted version, the father-son battle and the he-got-game, the way I wrote it is that Jesus' shoulder was supposed to be his

father, Jake, 12 zip. Now, Ray has never, this is his first film, so Ray is like, we got to do what the script says exactly. Denzel did not tell me, but I knew that

no way in the world was Denzel not going to try to score a basket. Because Denzel still considers himself a bowler. Yeah. So we start filming and Denzel's just throwing up some lucky shit. It's just humble. I mean, he's banking shit in. I mean, he's like crazy in. He's like crazy.

And you're just filming the whole time. Oh, I'm going to let him play. Yeah, yeah. So at the, I think like the six something, Ray said, look, he's, instead of saying cut, he's saying timeout. He's making a timeout sound like the referee. Timeout, He's making a timeout sound like he's a referee. Timeout! Timeout! And the great Susan Batson, who's one of the most phenomenal acting coaches, she's screaming at him, what are you doing?

What are you doing? What are you doing? Denzel's laughing. And Ray comes up to me and says, Spike, the script says I'm supposed to win 12-0. And he looks at me. I'm like, I 12-0. And he looks at me. I'm like, I go like this. What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

So for Denzel, it was a moral victory. Yeah, seriously. Because he had scored, I think, five or six baskets. He scored four. Four. So he said he told Ray beforehand, he's like, I've never been able to go left, but then went left. That's something I was not privy to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was trying to pull some Jedi mind trick on him. So Denzel's very proud of his performance in the film because he scored those backers on. It's a Hall of Famer. I got to say, that's one of my favorite sports movie scenes ever because I know. Thank you. Because Denzel starts talking shit to him and like real life comes into the scene. And Ray Allen, you can see him like being like getting mad. Ray knew that this film was going to be seen. He knew that his fellow players were getting on his ass. Like, I know he played Malcolm X, but you let that guy score.

It's got to be like the greatest, secretly the greatest achievement of Denzel's career. He put up four points on Ray Allen. That was some lucky stuff, though. But it went in. He was banking it in. Ray Allen. So, because he's a novice, his first film,

he didn't think he had the, you know, the get up on the D, and Denzel's competitive, you know? So, you want to look like a punk out there, so he's going to try to,

and also, it was a better, it was better than I wrote. I agree. It was better than I wrote. I agree. It was better than I wrote because the father has to, the son has to win in the end. But you got to see the father score some baskets. There's got to be some father-son, I'm still your dad. Exactly.

I agree with that. Exactly. You ruined Hoosiers for me. Why is that? That was like my favorite sports movie ever. And then I read your book about it. And you pointed out. Chris was at high school.

You pointed out how racist it was at the end where the Hoosiers team is playing the black, the all black team with the coach who was the four point lead who's just becomes a moron at the end of the movie. But you know, Oscar Robbins was on that team. Right. Well, he was on. He wasn't. There was the one team that was based on Hoos, Oscar Robles was on that team. Right. Well, he was on, he wasn't, there was the one team that was based on Hoosiers.

He went to high school though. He went to play on Christmas Addicts. It was like four years later. There was one black, there's only one black high school was Christmas Addicts in Indianapolis. I think the Hoosiers team was like 1950

and then Oscar's team was mid fifties. But Hollywood, Hollywood, Hollywood, come on, you know how that goes but you know

I know you're gonna agree with me the greatest documentary Hoop Dreams there's not I mean basketball documentary you think that is the greatest Hoop Dreams

oh yeah it's been often imitated ever since well that's what happens when you set the standard. You know, people try to imitate. What about that 70 fish that say Pittsburgh? What do you stand on that? It's funny.

Fast break? Bernard's in fast break. What, Gabriel? Gabriel Kaplan. Kotler, right? Welcome back, Kotler. Welcome back, Kotler. It's fun to see those guys.

Mike Warren said that? Harold Sylvester? What was the one with Shaq? That was Blue Chips. Nick Nolte was a coach? Yeah. But Shaq and Penny Hardaway. It's hard to do.

I mean, boxing's the easiest sport, I think, to recreate in the narrative film. Yeah. Basketball, it just looks... Football, what about North Dallas 40?

The 70s movies still hold up for me. I think North Dallas 40 still holds up. And Bad News Bears, that was good. And Bad News Bears 2 was pretty good, too. Slapshot still holds up. Longest Yard, I think, still holds up. And Bad News Bears, that was good. Bad News Bears too is pretty good too. Slapshot still holds up. Longest Yard I think still holds up. Don't skip over Slapshot. Who's the star of it?

Paul Newman. Paul Newman. Cool Hand Luke. Yeah. Cool Hand Luke. And Longest Yard still holds up. Oh, let me tell a story. So I'm getting ready to do 25th Hour. Yeah. Phenomenal movie, by the way. Thank you. And I want to put up the Cool Hand Luke poster in Edward Norton's apartment. So I make the call, and they say, you got to call Paul Newman for permission.

So I get his office number. I'd never met him before. He says, come on over, Spike. So I came to his office. We had a good talk. Gave me the blessing to use it. Then after the film was done, I called him again

and he signed it for me. Really? And what people forget about Paul Newman, Marlon Brando, Peter Love, guys like that, they were marching with Dr. King. They were writing big checks.

They were pulled in by Sidney Poitier, Belafonte. Those guys were very, very involved. A lot of people have let them out. They were really, really behind the movement, not just writing checks. They were marching, you know, with King. So I want to bring it up. Paul Newman and the stuff he's done with his charities.

Yeah. That's my man. Cool Hand Luke. Bill Russell, your relationship with him? Not really. Because he was another one who was at the forefront of a lot of that stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, Bill, if he don't know you, he looks like you're crazy. And my father-in-law and him played golf together.

So I had to tell him, George Lewis. He said, oh. Then I was okay. But if he don't know you, you just go walk up to him. And that's just, I'm not mad at him. That's just the way it is. You know, when you got nominated for Black Klansman, and they said this is Spike's first nomination. Well, we got to be specific.

No, I mean for directing. And picture. So I was like, that can't be true. I'm like, I've been here the whole time. It's true. And I follow this stuff, but I've had two websites that were sports and pop culture. So I was like, no, he got.

And then I went through and it was like, oh. Screenplay for Do The Right Thing. Well, 89, the Do The Right Thing. No, I know, but the knock-in picture

in 89 is one of the biggest Oscar travesties ever. Thank you very much. But before, I'm not saying that sucked you up. No, but you gotta get

nominated first to win. We only got two nominations. It was outrageous. Screenplay and Danielle lost out to Denzel for Glory. And then I won. I had nominated my documentary, Four Little Girls, about the bombing of the

6th Street Baptist Church. So what do you think happened 30 years later in 89? Not getting nominated. You've gone on record talking about Driving Miss Daisy. Very good question. I think what has happened is that, specifically with the Academy of Motion Picture Sciences, Cheryl Boone Isaacs.

They, with the link and Ms. Isaacs, Cheryl Boone Isaacs, which is probably hard. Let me start again. Okay. What happened, I think, is that two things happened. With April Raines, Oscar So White, hashtag Oscar So White. Right. And Cheryl Boone Isaacs, who then was the president of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Those two combined made the board of governors realize

they had to open up the voting membership of the academy. And not just have 78-year-old white people? Had to be opened up. It's a radical idea. And with this opening up of the membership, Moonlight, a whole lot of films, especially this year, the nomination has not been there

because it's more diversified, and the Academy looks more like the United States of America now than it has in the past. That makes sense. 89, I mean, here's a perfect example. I would say that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in 1990,

they bought it on the films the year before, they're much more comfortable with the character of Hulk, who's driving his daisy, than, yes, Mookie bugging out. And definitely Ray Raheem with that boombox blasting. Yeah. Fight the power.

It's so funny how the Oscars work. We talk about it a lot. We've done a million podcasts on it. Get Out was a good example last year. It was like 10 years from now, I know Get Out is going to be the memorable movie from that year. But for whatever reason in the moment, they vote for Shape of Water.

It's like, I know how this is going to play out. 10 years from now, people will be like, oh, that was the year Get Out came out. And it was so clear with your movie. I remember seeing your movie. I think it was in Cambridge. Yeah. And like-

It came with you, right? And kind of stumbling out of it. Be like, what the fuck just happened? That was amazing. And John Savage was wearing Larry Bird's jersey

and he stepped on bugging outs. I was mad about the John Savage thing. I got over that. But it was just such a it was just such a movie that I just never seen before.

And I think sometimes the Oscars doesn't know what to do with that. But here's the thing though is that, which I've come to understand, that was not the first time it happened with the, I mean, it's happened before. Happens all the time. Rage and Bull do not win. What won? Ordinary people?

How about Pacino didn't win for Godfather 2? Here's my, let's talk about this. Al Pacino won for Stent of a Woman. In 93. Over Denzel's Malcolm X. Right. Pacino did not win for Godfather 1, Godfather 2, Serpico. Well, that was like a makeup.

Dog Afternoon. Yeah. And Justice for All. Yeah. So you could say that Denzel's... Training Day. Training Day was a makeup call because... Although he was awesome in Training Day.

But he had to win for that one because they screwed up in 93. But look what... Pacino. Godfather. Godfather 2. Dog Day. Afternoon. Do you know in 74.

Serpico. And Adjustable. And you don't win? He lost in 74 and so did Nicholson in Chinatown. And they lost to Art Carney and Harry and Tonto. It's tough. How old was Art Carney? He was like 80.

There you go. He was skipping to the, skipping to the, look, no disrespect. This is all working in your favor 15 years from now. You're definitely going to,

you're 76. You just got to wait it out. They love the old people. 30 years ain't long enough. But, again, and I the other day I had a conversation

with Maury about this we don't do that's not the reason why I make films and the great stuff is gonna be seen a new generation no one

I'm saying respectfully but no one is watching Driving This Daisy now. I would say 20 years ago. Do the Right Thing is in the Library of Congress. Well, Do the Right Thing also, this decade. It took on a new meaning, context, everything. With the Errol Gardner. Yeah.

Chill cult. And this year is going to be the 30th anniversary of the film. I know. That's why I brought it up. Well, you know a lot. Even though you're a Red Sox fan. A Patriot fan. Let me ask you a question.

I mean, Radio Raheem gets choked to death by a cop in that movie. That was 30 years ago. Well, it's based upon something happening. Like six things, right? The thing about Do the Right Thing was where we had the forecast on gentrification. We're talking about

and Do the Right Thing which I wrote this script in 88. We had we forecast gentrification, global warming, a whole bunch of stuff.

We have people talking about that's prevalent today. Police violence, police brutality. Police brutality, a whole bunch of stuff. And it's a blessing. Well, one of the great things about that movie,

and I never understand how people pull this off. I'm not saying this to kiss your ass. There's like 13 distinct characters in that movie. Maybe even more. I don't know what the exact number is. Right. That you kind of feel like you know, and they're not even really in it that much. And I think that's, for me, the legacy of the movie is the way it's shifted over the 30 years with what's happening in culture.

But also just like the characters, I just hadn't really seen that. Do the Right Thing was Rosie Perez's first film. Yeah. Martin Lawrence's first film. Martin Lawrence is Right Thing was Rosie Perez's first film. Yeah. Martin Lawrence's first film. Martin Lawrence is in it. Robin Harris's first film. Jungle Feud was Halle Berry's first film. So we,

I got to give credit to Robbie Reed, who was my cast director. So a lot of these people, you know, that she had known in LA. So she was in LA. So I got to meet the talent out there. It's weird that you don't get mentioned,

I think maybe just because you're so famous now, but the whole independent kind of thing that started happening in late 80s through the 90s and all these people making money, Kevin Smith making clerks, all that stuff. But you made that, what'd you make it for, like 200 grand? Should I have it?

Yeah. $175,000. Two weeks? We shot six, two six-day weeks. Two six-day weeks? Yeah,

Sunday you take off. July 1st, July 14th. Where'd you get the $175,000? We were doing crowdfunding because before there was crowdfunding. Really? I mean, there was no technology, but the principle of crowdfunding, you know, we were doing it. Phone calls.

Did you know what number you had to get to or it was just like, as soon as I get enough, let's go? Whatever we got, we got to go with. That's what it was. 175, I wonder what that is now. What would that be like? 2 million now? 1 million? No.

In 85? What's 175 in 85? I wonder what the equivalent is now. Well, we're talking a year. We shot at 85. Yeah. So it's probably like 1.5 million now or something. You think so?

I don't know. I don't know. Larry Bird made 600,000 in 1985, and now LeBron makes 35 million. I don't know what money is anymore. That's stupid money. Stupid money. So then after Do the Right Thing, I mean, you did Jungle Fever, but when did you start really eyeing Malcolm X?

Was that always in the back of your head or was that like once you had these opportunities, you thought about it? The story is that the great director Norman Jules was attached to the film with Denzel and was announced, I made it public, knowing that I would like to be considered for this role. And the producer, Marvin Wirth, great guy. Madness, Lenny Bruce. And he's one of those guys who's seen everything. He arranged a meeting where Norman Jewelers and I sat down. And Norman Norman gracefully he didn't have to do that I always give credit to him

because it was his film he had a deal that was playing Malcolm X and Norman Drewis was playing was directing the film and it was his job and he gracefully bowed out which he didn't have to do so I always give credit to Norman for that it's weird a full white guy directs that movie I don't know And he gracefully bowed out, which he didn't have to do. So I always give credit to Norman for that.

It's weird a full-length guy directs that movie. I don't know. Well, that, I wasn't, you know. I'm glad you saw that. Yeah, it's his decision. And I thank him for that every time I can. Because he did not have to do that. You stumbled into something. I shouldn't say stumbled

because it was intentional but the way you marketed that movie with the X hats I remember in the moment thinking like this is fucking smart like it felt

it was like this viral advertising everybody there was a six month stretch everybody wanted those hats and the movie hadn't come out yet very early on I understood that

I had to beat my own drum yeah coming from independent cinema i was not gonna have millions of dollars on tv ads stuff like that people forget on june 30th 1989 dude right thing opened the same day as Tim Burton's Batman. The same day. Was that a mistake? No, it's called culture. Oh, it's called counter-programming? Yes. But nowhere in the world is universal.

And there's no should they have. Spend the amount of money that Bob Daley and Terry Semelman would spend on. I mean, that's Tim Burton's Batman. Prince did the score. Jack Nicholson. Well, there was some weird shit going on with Do the Right Thing that people were worried about. It might be an incendiary movie.

Well, there were several. David Demby. The New Yorker. Yeah, I remember that. Not great. Be careful. Be careful. Be careful what happens in the theater when you see this movie. Blood might spike these hands.

This film can incite black people to riot all over the country. You know, crazy shit. Yeah, that stuff has not aged well. So they look stupid. Yeah. And this other guy, Joe something. What's his name? Joe Klein.

Joe Klein. Yeah. I remember that. I saw that motherfucker. On the cellar. We were going from New York. I didn't say nothing. I gave him a look, though.

You side-eyed him? My head was turned both ways. Like this, like that. He didn't say nothing. But he knew with that and none of those guys ever said alright

Spike I fucked up they never have never sent you a letter nothing yeah it's like how you

want to make you fucked up when you blaspheme Larry Bird the greatest greatest forward of all time me and Larry Bird

you should send him a letter me and Larry there was no letter cool. You should send him a letter. Me and Larry, there was no letter, no reason for me to have a letter. We spoke like this. And, well, I'll just say that. So, I knew that I had to beat my own drum. Yep. And the person, I never said this before.

You got a lot of firsts. Yeah. The person I learned from was Madonna. Really? Oh, she was the master. The person that Spike Lee learned how to market me, my brand, my films, was from Madonna. She was the first one who figured all this shit out. She had it.

She changed her look every year. Everything was calculated. I was studying her. Madonna. So, She changed her look every year. Everything was calculated. I was stunning her. Madonna. So thank you, sister. Madonna. Were you selling the hats? Who was selling the hats? Me! How many did you sell? Do you remember? She's gonna have it. I was selling She's Gonna Have It t-shirts in front of the motherfucking theater.

True! How many hats you sell? Do you remember? We sold a ton and then like a million people nah not a million people doing bootleg stuff so

yeah oh that's yeah but it wasn't a phenomenon no do you feel and then in the end credits of Malcolm X we show

various people who gave us money to finish the film so you see there's a shot of Michael and uh Magic wearing a... I remember. An X hat.

When that happened, it was game over. Oh, yeah. That was... How much... Did I tell you that story? No, please do. Well, we never

got the correct budget, appropriate budget for Malcolm X. Seriously? Yes. But everybody knew that. I knew it. Warren Brothers knew it.

The Bond Company knew it. So we always knew that doomsday would arrive, that day of reckoning where we were out of money. So we had planned the schedule. We would start in September,

break for the holidays, and finish in South Africa and Egypt. And so once we came to that break, we were told that we have to cut the budget. They want us to shoot on the Jersey shore instead of. Instead of Egypt? Yes. Oh, no. And it was a very, it was a rough time. Yeah, because those two locations don't look alike. And then another thing. The first time we showed Malcolm X to Bob Daly and Terry Semel, who ran the studio, was the day, I swear to God it's the truth, was the day on the Rodney King verdict.

Oh, no. The same day. And that cut was four hours. But to their credit, Bob Daly and Terry Simmel stayed throughout the whole four hour screening while L.A. was up in flames.

Jesus. So their assistants would come in every half an hour with like notes and stuff and they would, we need to get a helicopter. I mean,

they were talking here and saying, you need a helicopter? I mean, it was, L.A. was in flames. And mean, they were talking here and saying, you need a helicopter? I mean, it was, LA was in flames. And to that credit, I know I'm repeating myself,

I gotta give them love. The co-presidents of Warner Brothers, Bob Daley and Terry Simmel, stayed throughout the four-hour cut. Jeez.

So, they say Spike. So, later on we knew no way in the world do we expect it to be four hours we just want to see

what it looks like so then we had a three hour cut and they said Spike we cannot release a three hour cut the reason why studios

don't like the longer lengths is because that means there's one less screening right at the theater it's

you have to do 7 o'clock or 10.30 so at the same time I'm doing Mount Worth doing Malcolm X Warner's also has GFK that was like

three hours let me you're killing my story here my brother slow down so so I know they're getting ready to release story here my brother slow down so so I know

they're getting ready to release JFK so I say I say how long is JFK it says like two hours

but they don't know I know Alva Stone yeah so I call Alva Alva how long is JFK

Spike don't tell him that see directors you know look out for each other so they didn't know that I knew

Oliver and GFK was three hours I said alright fuck it we'll keep it three hours so

I was not gonna cave Warner Bros let the Bond company take over the movie and the Bond company promptly fired everybody all the people, editors everybody, fired and

we couldn't work and I got paid one1 million for Malcolm X, and I put that entire salary into the movie. Jesus. So I didn't have any more money to put in a film anymore. So doing this film, in pre-production of the film, one of the most important books I ever read was the autobiography Malcolm X was told to Alex Haley

in junior high school. And I had to restudy Malcolm. And the thing that kept coming to my mind was self-determination, self-reliance. Self-determination, self-reliance. I said, damn, that's it. I knew I could call up prominent African-Americans that had money. I mean, not through their assistant. I had their phone number.

I call up, call them up. But the tricky thing is this. Really, I had my Yankee hat hand out begging. The trick being that the money I was asking for could not be an investment. It could not be a tax trial. This just had to be a gift.

So I made my list. First person I called was Bill Cosby. He said, how much you need? I told him. He said, Spike, I'll send you. Put it in the mail. I said, no, no, no. So I got in the subway, ran to Bill Cosby's

brownstone, rang the bell, hand me the check. I didn't even come inside because I had to get to the bank before he might change his mind. Boom. So Tracy I had to get to the bank before he might change his mind. Right. Boom. So, Tracy Chapman. Tracy Chapman?

Tracy Chapman. Wow. Janet Jackson. Magic was involved, right? Yeah, yeah. OMG. My brother, let me tell the motherfucking story you're killing it

I didn't know you were going in order yes alright Miss Winfrey there's a woman named Peggy Cooper Cape who's just

a philanthropist who just passed Oprah had was she Oprah at that point oh yeah oh yeah I guess she was okay

Prince Prince so Janet Was she Oprah at that point? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I guess she was. Okay. Prince. Prince. So, Janet. And it came down to the last two on the list, Magic and Michael. Now, every time I make the next call, every time I make the next call, I'm asking for money. So, I only had two more people on my list. So, I called Magic. Spike, what do you need?

Boom. So the last call is Michael Jordan. The GOAT. Born in Brooklyn, New York. Anyway. I always say that. So I know Michael's very competitive. Michael doesn't want to lose motherfucking tiddlywinks so I just happened

to let slip how much Magic wrote on his check and that was it Michael said Magic gave how much boom so Michael sealed it.

I was able to hire back my production team and post-production team. And on Malcolm's birthday, May 19th, we had a press conference at the Schaumburg Library in Harlem, 135th Street, Lenox, where we announced that these prominent African-Americans had written checks so we could finish the film where we wanted to make it. And the next day, Warner Brothers started to fund the film again. My mother's grave, true story. True story. So every time I see anybody, I give them,

I saw, where I see magic? At Sam Jackson's birthday party. I mean, that was a big birthday party. They're buddies. I know. I gave,

I gave magic, sitting there with Cookie, lovely wife. I gave Magic a big hug. What's up, Spike? Why are you hugging me? I said, yo, you wrote that check with Malcolm X. That was it. You know, so all those prominent, Tracy Chapman, Janet Jackson, I mean,

you know, they wrote that check and asked, and asked because I cannot cave in. Couldn't do it. And, and, and here's the thing. Malcolm X evolved as a person, a young child, Detroit red. We needed that time to see the transformations he was going as a human being. You can't do that shit in two hours. I wasn't like, I have to do that to be David Lean, make a three hour motherfucking movie like Lawrence of Arabia, Dr. Zhivago, Bridge of the motherfucking Kwai.

Oh, motherfucking Bridge of the River Kwai. Oh, motherfucking Bridge and River Kwai. Got my motherfuckers out of place. But we needed that time to tell a story. Yeah. It was not an ego trip. That the performance at Denzel, which was one of the greatest performances, I think, caught in the cinema,

is not going to be the same thing in that film as two hours. You need three hours. For three hours, you need money to do a three-hour movie. How much?

I mean, you catch Denzel at the perfect point. I always feel like there has to be a little bit of luck involved when a movie stands the test of time

because I was thinking about that Godfather and Godfather 2 run and you think about like People like Godfather 2 better. I think it's I love Godfather more but I think Godfather 2

is a better movie. I mean they're both great movies. Yeah they're both great. But the amount of luck that they had to get Pacino and James Caan and Duvall

and then catch Brando at the right point in his career. Yeah, but Paramount didn't even want Brando. Right. So Denzel you catch right as he's ascending, but he's not Denzel yet. Well, it started with Moe Betta. Yeah. And then he won.

And he had Glory. Glory. I knew he was because he was on St. Elisabeth. Let me give you a quote. Famous quote. Branch Rickey. Luck is a residue of design. So if you're busting your ass,

you have a better chance of the favors of luck being bestowed upon you. Right. But if you ain't doing shit, and you just lean on your ass, you're not going to get lucky. So, I mean, it's the same way you just said it,

but I think that, I mean, I've always remembered that Branch Rickey quote, but people don't know Branch Rickey signed Jackie Robinson. First to the Montreal Royals, then with the Brooklyn Dots.

And yesterday was Jackie's 100th birthday. I remember. I know you know, but just for the audience. Yeah, then with the Brooklyn Dots. And yesterday was Jackie's 100th birthday. I remember. I know you know, but just for the audience. Yeah, yeah, I got you. And let's not talk about what they tell that famous story. Jackie Robinson working out for the Red Sox. Oh, come on.

Come on. It was 70 years ago. Hey, did they not change the Yoki way the other day? Did they not change the name? Same thing. Well, you could say from a karma standpoint that might have helped explain why the Red Sox had so

much pain and torment over the decades. Oh, yeah. Look. Because I am a karma guy. I believe in karma. I do wonder if that... Let's shake hands. Alright. God don't like ugly. And you just do some best that follows you. Karma, whatever you want to call it. Hey, when you had Wesley Snipes a year before.

Right. Wesley's in this great run of his career. He's just all these hits, all these great movies for five years. I can answer the question. But who is Wesley now? Wesley always wanted to be an action hero guy. He wanted to be a passenger 57 guy? Schwarzenegger, Stallone, that's who he always wanted to be.

And these films were a route for him to get to that position. But that's what he wanted to do. And look, as I said before, I want people to do what you want to do. Yeah. Be happy. And that's what you want to do? I want him to play Ray Rahim. Can you turn that down?

Turn it down. Really? I want a Fishburne to play Rahim. Oof. I want a Robert De Niro to play Sal. Get out of here. I lied to you not you asked Robert De Niro to play Sal you want to do it

God what a great what if that is no no no I disagree I think the thing that makes which I'm going to touch upon something when you said you talked earlier about the ensemble piece, all these different characters. You think he overpowers it?

It's not an ensemble movie anymore. Yeah, it's a De Niro movie. It's a Robert De Niro film. And that's why. It's still a pretty interesting movie. What? It's pretty interesting to have De Niro in that. He didn't want to do it.

And again, just like we brought Persingas. Why have a guy on your team who doesn't want to do it. And again, just like we brought Persingas. Why have a guy on your team who doesn't want to be there? Why do you have an actor in a movie who doesn't want to do it?

And back in the day, those actors had contracted studios. So you didn't have a choice. Unless you're a super, super, you had to do what Louis B. Mayer

and all the other guys said you had to do what Louis B. Mayer and all the other guys said you had to do. What's that class you had, late 80s? Do you feel like you were in a class? Oh yeah. Soderbergh I did a podcast with on Monday and he mentioned

how you guys, you both had movies in 1989 and he was like, man, that was kind of we bonded over a lot of stuff later. I love Steven. And here's the thing, though. People thought that because of Sex, Lies, and Veil Tape and Do the Right Thing and Can and Sex, Lies, and Veil Tape won. What do you call it? The Palme d'Or.

Yeah, yeah. My beef was never with him. Yeah. It was with Ben Vendors, who was the president of the jury. But me and Steve, people thought that, no, we were always good. We were just young filmmakers, independent filmmakers. Cool. And our guy, our hero was Jim Jarmusch.

Yeah. Because Jim Jarmusch was ahead of me in NYU film school. So my class of 82 was my great cinematographer who shot all my stuff in film school and my early films, Ernest Dickerson. Oh, legend. And Ang Lee. We were all in the same class. Ang Lee? Yes.

He can speak a word of English then. Ang Lee, Ernest Dickerson, Spike Lee were all NYU graduate film school class of 1982 Jesus same class who else is in your when you think about you and Soderbergh like those guys

coming up late 80s before they had John Sayles yep Michael Moore with his documentary I know I'm missing some people.

But it was a great time because independent cinema was thriving. And. At what point did you become kind of the dean of black filmmakers? At what point in your career did people. Well, I don't know. Look, I'm not getting myself that position but here's the thing you had

early on I'm here because of pioneers like Oscar Michaud then you had later on Gordon Parks Melvin Van Peebles

Ozzie Davis there's a director who gets overlooked a lot his name is Michael Schultz he directed a lot of those major, major hit films. Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor was the biggest star in Hollywood. And so then Robert Townsend and I really came out at the same time.

She's a habit in Hollywood Shuffle. Yeah. Then Singleton with Boys in the Hood. But he saw your movie and didn't he tell you like I'm gonna do what you're doing I was standing outside I forgot the theater

selling t-shirts hand out buttons and this skinny guy with glasses comes up to me and says my name is John Singleton and uh I'm gonna be a filmmaker

just like you true story true story He says, my name is John Singleton, and I'm going to be a filmmaker just like you. True story. True story. That was a good one. This is the first time? We've never done this before. I was trying to get you on for years.

Are you talking to a rich man? I get along with anybody who loves basketball. It's my fault. I had to get through this Boston, New York thing. But who loves basketball. Plus, we had the- I think it's my fault. I had to get through this Boston, New York thing, but that's over with. We had the Ralph Wiley connection. Yeah. Look, my apologies. No, look. I admire what you do.

Thank you. You know what you're talking about. A lot of these people, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Just talking. I had one more question, because you probably have to go. Which is that I was interested in. 25th Hour. Ooh, I love that film.

Didn't get nominated. And when you look at the list of people that films that got nominated, it's a disgrace. Did you know as you're filming that that that was going to be like the first post 9-11 movie? Because that's become part of the narrative.

Oh, we knew it. But here's the thing. Was that the biggest reason you wanted to do it? Yes, I'm a New Yorker. Oh, we knew it. But here's the thing. Was that the biggest reason you wanted to do it? Yes, I'm a New Yorker. But here's a secret sauce. David Benioff, that was a novel. I know. And the novel was written pre-911.

So it was my deal to make this story. I told David, David, this has to be post 9-11. Now it was written before. And Edward Norton and I have been wanting to work together for a minute. And we both got these scripts from our two separate agents at the same time. Yeah. And then you think about the cast. Edward Norton, the late, great Phyllis E. Hoffman.

People sleep on Barry Peppers. Barry Peppers. He nice little run. He was good in 61. I like 61. He's a great athlete. Yeah. Hockey.

He's an athlete. Because every movie we had softball teams he could play. Rosario. Yeah. Brian Cox. Tony Siragusa yeah his first

he's a Russian mobster yes I was doing a piece I was doing that film Jim Brown All-American and that year the Ravens were in the Super Bowl

yeah Ray Lewis so Coach lives Jim wants to have the Spike his crew, so they love. And then I got tight with Tony Siragusa, and I said, I had him come and read, and he got the part. That movie holds up. Oh, yeah. I think it's turned into, I think, one of the most important movies of that decade. Tell us, though, Terrence Blanchard's score.

Yeah. Terrence, my longtime composer, and Black Clams' first nomination. Barry Brown, my longtime editor, cut Do The Right Thing, Malcolm X, Inside Man. This is his first time nomination. I mean, Adam's young, but his first, Adam Driver's first nomination. So when people saw me jumping up and down that field and went out, that was just for me. That was for Terrence. Because I know how, this is my team. And these guys bust their ass.

And people know me, but they don't. I mean, Terrence is a great musician, so seeing Albert Barry. You know, these guys have never. They are masking their crap, and they're not doing it to get nominations. But at the same time, any human being wants to be acknowledged for the work they do. I had a weird experience seeing it because I had John David Washington on the podcast the next day. It was great.

Yeah? And so I went to see- See it's the 20th hour? Or Black Clansman? No, no, Black Clansman. Okay. The night before, I had to go to like an 11 o'clock screening at the Grove. And it was me and like, don't know 10 people including 4 girls

who I think thought it was a comedy which seems to be a recurring theme with this were they on their phone the whole time no they were

probably but they're laughing really laughing at some I'm like I'm positive this isn't a comedy but it's

I mean it has funny moments but well I think that the humor the laugh that comes from the absurdity of the premise.

Black man infiltrates Ku Klux Klan. Right. But how much do you think is like nervous laughter? I don't know. It was weird. Yeah, there is. I almost told them to leave. You should have.

I was like, can you guys leave? I'm really enjoying this movie. Can you go? But there are certain things where I acknowledge that particularly white audiences don't know if they should laugh or not. There's an uneasiness to it that I thought was fascinating. I almost wish I had seen it in a full theater. Well, you should have seen bamboozled with a white audience.

In fact, we have a scene where the performance is going on and we have the white audience members looking through the light. They laugh. I'm laughing. where the performance is going on and we have the white audience members looking through their they laugh I'm laughing what are you most proud of that movie looking back now

that it's no no Black Klansman now that it's been it's been out for six months what is the thing you're most proud of I think this is my ass will be the

could be the end of the show you're great that's why I asked yeah Black Klansman I think this is, my answer could be the end of the show. You're great. That's why I asked. Yeah. Black Klansmen will be on the right side of history. I like that. That's it.

Spike Lee, I'm glad we finally did this. Let's do it again soon. I'm sorry the Red Sox took the Yankees' mantra as the dominant American League team of this century. You had last century at least. Look. You had the 20th century. It was great. The Yankees.

Excuse me. Now it's the 21st century. The rest of us had a better team last year. I can't debate that. The whole century, I would say. Listen, you had last century. I'm only going one year back. You had last century. We got this century.

It's fine. You're allowed titles. Your manager. Our manager's amazing. He is. First Puerto Rican manager. So, look, we got work to do. What are you going to do about your reliever?

We're fine. We have an awesome team. We'll get a closer in June. We're going to win every game by seven runs and we'll get a closer in June. We're fine. We're fine. You worry about your own team. You should be getting Bryce Harper right now. They're not paying him that money. Why'd they build that terrible stadium?

That thing's awful. Thing's empty half the time. That's because those... What you're talking about, sir, is corporations taking over sports. They ruined Yankee Stadium. That's not the only one. We kept our integrity.

Integrity. Look, we kept Fenway. Chicago kept Wrigley. I love Fenway. I love Wrigley films. But what's up with the TD Gardens? Listen, I mean, it's terrible. Now you're fumbling.

It's terrible. it's terrible. Now you're fumbling the bumblebee. It's terrible. It's terrible. Corporate America. I mean, except for playoff games, that center field camera looking at the plate, there's no buy behind home plates. It's embarrassing. They should have C-Fillers like the Oscars.

It would seem so much better. Get 50 high school kids and bring them in there. Spike Lee, I'm glad we finally did this. This is a pleasure. Yeah. All right. Thanks so much to Spike Lee. Thanks to Joe House.

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Download the New York Times crossword app at newyorktimes.com slash mini. Kyle, how's your life been different since the Pats won the Super Bowl? It's just been all around better. Just waking up. Just a happy 48 hours, right? Yeah, I had a great time rushing my tea today. Was there a parade today? Yeah, there was a parade. Tom Brady tea today. There was a parade today? Yeah, there was a parade.

Tom Brady's doing Good Morning America. Is he? Yeah, he did that today. I'll check that out. Talked about Gisele. We got Inside the NFL tonight. Get all the highlights of the game. Did you see the McCourty twins dancing together? Yeah, yeah. That was heartwarming. Yeah, it was great. I don't know how we did it. Back on Thursday, Trade Deadline Pod.

We're going to be taping me and Ryan Rosillo basically from all the way through and putting it up as soon as possible. So hopefully some stuff will happen. Until then. I don't have feelings within On the wayside On the front side of the river I'm saying I don't have feelings within