The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Big Wilson Trade, Ridley’s Suspension, Westbrook’s Struggles, and Coach K’s Farewell Tour With Kevin Clark, Van Lathan, and Tate Frazier

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss the blockbuster trade that sent longtime Seahawks QB Russell Wilson to the Broncos, Aaron Rodgers’s new Packers extension, and other thoughts from the NFL franchise tag deadline (3:00). Then Bill is joined by Van Lathan for a game of Do You Have a Take?, where they cover Calvin Ridley’s suspension, Russell Westbrook, “Why isn’t Superman cool?,” Chet Holmgren, and more (35:45). Finally, Bill talks with Tate Frazier about coach Mike Krzyzewski’s farewell tour, the new book ‘Coach K: The Rise and Reign of Mike Krzyzewski’ by Ian O’Connor, NCAA tournament odds, and more (1:08:38). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin Clark, Van Lathan, and Tate Frazier Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, a huge NFL trade, lots of takes, and the return of the first ever employee of the ringer. It is all next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, And it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL is best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing

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You know, I forgot to mention in the segment we did with Kevin about Russell Wilson. Remember a year and a half ago, he was looking like an MVP candidate. Things were going great. He came on this podcast. We had a really good podcast. It was fun. He was good. Right afterwards, the team went into a tailspin.

Then he gets hurt the following year, hurts his finger. And he wasn't very good last year either. And now he's traded. And you think like, I felt like we did that podcast, like, I don't know, six, six months ago, three months ago, it was way longer than that, obviously. But, um, it was from the moment we did that podcast, everything kind of changed for Russell Wilson. So I don't know, is there, I really hope there's not a BS podcast curse. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I don't want that on me. I hope this is an isolated incident. But I hope Russell Wilson, I hope things turn around for him in Denver. I have my buddy Gus, who's been on this podcast before. We've been friends since I was in the eighth grade. And we would always call each other

whenever anything major happened. Try to break the news to each other about how's the so-and-so era for you after there's a big trade or somebody retired, or if, you know, somebody got traded off your team, you'd say, how is the, you know, D Brown era for you or whatever. Then in the texting era, we would just text that. So we would, sometimes we kind of force those, but then this time being able to text Gus, lifelong Broncos fan, how's the Russell Wilson era for you? This is one of the biggest texts I think I've sent Gus since we had texting.

So he's fired up. The Broncos fans are fired up. We'll see if Kevin's fired up. He's coming up next first, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Kevin Clark from the ringer is here. We're going to talk some football. I thought we were going to talk about the Rodgers thing and some offseason storylines we ought to watch. And then the Russell Wilson bomb dropped. Russell Wilson traded to Denver.

I hopped on Green Room just to help console Danny Kelly. He was traumatized. He was sucking his thumb in the corner. The Ringer's Danny Kelly, big Seahawks fan. There were rumors about... I had heard this for the last week that, that Russell was on the table. Teams are calling him. The Seahawks were denying it.

Do you think this was related to the Rogers contract announcement? And then two hours later we get a Wilson trade. Yes, of course it was. And you know that because the report was, this was not related. This was, please. It was not related. Like, why would you say that? It reminds me a little bit.

Do you remember when Carmelo Anthony got traded and it was between the Knicks and the Nets? And as soon as that trade went through, Darren Williams got traded for the same package. Yeah. It's almost the same thing. The Nets were like, all right, well, we're going to give this package to Denver.

We'll just give it to Utah, right? So it's a little bit like that. Yeah, I mean, Russell Wilson was their plan B. Aaron Rodgers was their plan A. I don't see how you can't draw that connection. It's the same genre of quarterback. It's the same commitment. My guess is that this is what Denver would have given up for Green Bay,

to Green Bay, if Rodgers had chosen to play for Denver. So yeah, that's related. My guess is there's probably a little more in the trade if it's Rodgers, but he's also more expensive for Denver. In a lot of ways, probably this is a better option for them. My big thing is I just didn't think Wilson was good last year.

I didn't think he was bad, but I didn't think he was good. I think he coasted on the reputation piece more than what the actual eye test was showing me. He doesn't run around like he used to. I don't, I just didn't feel like he was as dangerous. And I felt

like the guy from the first four or five years of his career versus the guy I watched last year, I thought there was some drop off. I really did. And I don't know whether that was he was starting to feel stale there, like he had one foot out or whether he's just entering a different phase of his career.

So what do you think? Sure. A couple of things. Number one, he had the finger injury and that's a big deal. Like there's a couple, there aren't that many more subtle injuries that would affect a quarterback than, than a finger. It's not like a, a knee where you'd see it and he'd be hobbling around. Like the finger was impacting him the entire second half of the season.

But how does that explain the no running though? He came probably came back to it. No, that that that part is serious. And I was just talking to Danny Kelly offline about this and he was basically saying he's never going to be the same player again unless he starts running again. It doesn't look like that's going to be the case. So that is a huge part of it. I would also say new offense. He was

running the kind of McVay offense and ended up being the Russell Wilson offense again. At this point, I think we can start saying that anywhere he goes, it's going to be the Russell Wilson offense. And I think people thought there were going to be some structural changes that he was going to get layups. That was the big buzzword this time last year. I didn't really see any. I think Bill that, that I do have a lot of questions about this. I understand why both teams did this, but I actually think that this is one of those trades where in five years both teams will probably regret doing it.

I don't think any team is going to have won this trade in any appreciable way. Denver was in this situation after Peyton Manning has retired. They've been in an everyday sense that the only way they're going to get out of their rut is with a star quarterback. And they can keep playing the sort of scratch-off lottery in the draft every year

and try to go for a Malik Willis or a Kenny Pickett this year, or they can go with what they think is the sure thing. I understand why they're doing it, but it's interesting because when we did two emergency pods today, starting with the Aaron Rodgers thing, and the point I made on the Rodgers thing was that it's never happened that a team has traded a quarterback, a star quarterback they wanted to keep. It's never happened. And even if you

look at the Jay Cutler thing a couple years ago, that was because Josh Daniels tried to get Matt Castle at the beginning of the offseason and it kind of devolved from there, right? And I'm wondering if that's still true. Did the Seahawks want to keep Russell Wilson or not? It's just, I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the discussions of what they still true. Did the Seahawks want to keep Russell Wilson or not?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the discussions of what they think he is going forward. I'd rather have Russell Wilson than what the Seahawks are about to do, which is be in the wilderness for a long time. But I don't think he's a super duper star at the level he has been. Well, I asked Danny, when do you think the first hit piece is coming out from the Seattle side?

And what's going to be in it? Because that's usually, that's usually a piece of this, right? Where the guy leaves for a couple of days and then all of a sudden, first of all, it's the reporter dump where the reporter has all the anecdotes they never wanted to use while the guy was on the team.

They dumped that. Brian Curtis calls it the, now they tell us piece. Yeah. Now they tell us piece. So we have that. And then we also, we have the history with Wilson where, I mean, there was a, it got really dicey with him in the defense for a couple of

years. There were some crazy pieces of journalism written about, um, the defense blaming him, um, for losing the super bowl that they felt like they didn't want to call the winning touchdown for Lynch. Cause they wanted it to be Wilson's team and they wanted him to get the winning moment. And that? I haven't read this in a while, but it was like didn't they go to Hawaii? They went to Hawaii. They were on the beach and they did a whole big therapy

powwow, basically. I wonder is there some diva stuff with him, maybe? I don't know if it's diva stuff. I think that the Malcolm Butler interception, you can make a case, kind of ruined the trajectory of that franchise. There was some, I think Seth Wickersham had the best piece on this a couple of months and years after that.

There was trash talking at practice that probably went way over the line that got personal. Like, the team chemistry was ruined after a while. And you can, when everybody was rowing in the same direction in Seattle, there was nothing like it. I mean, there was so much talent. The locker room was in a healthy place i would say and like a very they were all very there was no passive aggressiveness whatsoever um in 2013 like these guys were getting in fights all the time whatever it was a very strange but productive

locker room i feel like the malcolm butler play sent them in a bit of a tailspin that they never recovered from. And I think that if you were to point to a couple of things, I mean, that play obviously is one of the most significant ones in your life. But for Belichick, it also pretty much eliminated an NFC contender for the next few years. And so, listen, they had chances to get back to it. Obviously, they kind of had a ceiling there for a while. The defense is not what it was. Pete Carroll came out a couple weeks ago and said he thought they'd been arrogant about the defense over the past couple of years. They need to rebuild. But right now, I don't think they got

enough. This is not a sure thing haul. They already gave up two first round picks for Jamal Adams. And so it's not like I'm sitting here saying, oh my God, this is like the Sashi Brown Browns where they're just going to have this war chest. I'm going here saying, oh my God, this is like the Sashi Brown Browns where they're just going to have this war chest. They're going to go out and build. This is no sure thing. They don't have any more draft capital than some of these other teams who have traded star players,

so I'm a little confused as to who I'm supposed to say won this trade in three years because I think we understand the Broncos have a ceiling in the AFC West, and we know that the Seahawks just might not get appreciably better. I thought Sertan was definitely in this trade when they announced it. We didn't know who the particulars were.

And then it came out and he wasn't in the trade. And I asked Danny when I hopped on that green room, like at what point does a Seahawks fan and you're on your text thread with all the other Seahawks fans have the, wait a second, we didn't get Sertan? Yeah. Moment of this trade where they get the two firsts and I'm assuming they're going to just pick the quarterback ninth that everyone's gotten excited about.

Yeah. And then you could be like, look, we've turned Wilson into a quarterback of the future plus all this other stuff. He's cheaper. He's not a rookie. QB thing. We had to reset our salary cap anyway. I didn't mind what they got.

I actually was surprised, even though Sertan wasn't in the trade, I was surprised Wilson was worth as much as this, but it goes back to what you said earlier. Really? Yeah, because he wasn't good last year. And you can blame the finger all you want, but he wasn't good in the second half

of the year before either. And to me, it's like, if he's not scrambling around like he did the first five years, I don't think he's in my top seven or eight anymore. I asked the guys in green room, is he, right now, would he be a top 10 fantasy quarterback for you?

We went through the 10 guys and he was probably 10th. And there's probably nine guys you would say are going to have better stats of them even in this new offense in denver because i don't know we have a pretty good sample size now that wilson might be who he is he had lockett and meccaf on his team last year was still pretty erratic i i understand that but i'm just when you consider the the fact that good star quarterbacks so rarely become available, I just think that the price is artificially high. That's why I thought I wouldn't have been surprised if there was a third first in this deal or if there had been an actual star going Seattle's way.

One of the receivers or something like that. Well, what you get out of it is, first of all, you end this hamster wheel that you've had at QB really since the noodle arm year of Manning. And there's just nothing worse. Well, there are things worse

because you're an Orlando Magic fan. So I'm sure you could come up with worst case scenarios of just year after year lottery picks and they're disappointing. When you don't have a quarterback for two thirds of a decade,

at some point, you start to melt down mentally, especially as every conversation, including ones we have in our pods, is like, quarterbacks lead, quarterbacks lead, need a quarterback, need a quarterback. And you're like, we have Drew Locke. We're never going to have a quarterback. So you get Wilson, and it's like Super Bowl

champion. By the way, congrats to Seattle for locking up Drew Loc lock in this trade. Oh, they got him. They got him. They got him. You got to extend them now. You got to keep them. But if you're, you don't want to get out leverage. Yeah. You got to make sure you get a strike while they're inside. Yeah. But if you're at Denver, you're, you can really talk yourself fast in this trade.

I wonder from the Seattle side, how you talk yourself into this trade, because Wilson at least gave me the illusion of competitiveness. Now you're looking at a two year rebuild and your coach is what? 75, 73. Yeah. Something like that.

And so it's like, you're throwing away this year, I guess. Then you're probably throwing away next year too, as you extricate yourself from this cap stuff. So maybe that's how this needed to play out. said i would also i would also say as much as the quarterbacks league it's also an owner's league and denver does not have an owner right now um that that situation is completely up in the air and seattle is in a situation where i don't really

think anyone knows how jody allen wants to run the franchise. I think that is also probably true in Portland as well. And so in both of these cases, I'm confused as to the direction of both of them and where this is headed because I don't know, like, is Denver in six months going to get bought for $4 billion?

But Denver's like, we're close with the Super Bowl this year. If we get a quarterback, we can actually win the Super Bowl. But I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. I don't. Do you think Denver is a Super Bowl contender? I think they went from the fourth best quarterback in the division to the third best quarterback in the division just now.

And I don't think that that's going to make such a huge difference that we're talking about them playing on January 28th. Here are my Denver thoughts, because I certainly lost a lot of money on them the last two years. Betting them week to week and so did Sal

and we would always complain about it. It seemed like they had a lot of bad luck and a lot of underachieving based on what the talent potential was. We went in back-to-back years. We were going into seasons with people telling us,

this is the aberration team. If you look at all the luck they had last year, turnover luck and injury luck and this and that and schedule, and this is the team. And I bet them both of those years for the over, sleeper bets on the AFC West, stuff like that. And each year was, you know, last year was less injuries and more. The offense was just so broken. It was easily the worst offense for what the talent was because they actually

had pretty good receivers. So I could see themselves talking themselves into, Hey, you look at this team in the years past and this other team, and they had the quarterback and then they nailed their draft. One good free agent. We have receivers. We have really good D-backs. We have a pass rush. Like, we're not that far away. I don't think that's wrong. I think that they've been a very strangely run franchise.

I think John Elway was really bad at running this team. And that's... What a refutation of the John Elway era. Now that he's out, he's an outside consultant. They immediately get

a short quarterback after seven years of just finding the tallest person available and saying, he's our quarterback. We're just going to go out and get the 5'10 guy.

I don't, I just, I think you're higher in the Broncos than I am. I just don't think that the line is subpar. I think they were 20th,

something like that in the PFF rankings last year as a unit. I think they were 20th, something like that, in the PFF rankings last year as a unit. I think they were 15th in pressures allowed. I don't know what the path is. Part of the problem is they just gave up a bunch of picks to the point that if they were maybe a couple more moves away, they could make that jump. Maybe it's a 2023 thing for me,

but I'm not seeing in 2022. We know who's going to see it in 2022, Russell Wilson. FanDuel has Denver as the fifth best odds right now. In the AFC? No, for the Super Bowl. They have the Bills at 7-1, Chiefs plus 850, Packers 10-1. Rams 12-1. Broncos 12-1.

Niners 13-1. Dallas 14-1. And then we go into the 20-1s with a whole bunch of teams. Niners 13-1. I think I would just flag that because I still think Brady, there's a chance he comes back and he's their quarterback. And I also think they're going to get something for Garoppolo too in a trade. I also think that there's a chance if they have Trey Lance

they're still going to be better than the Broncos. Wow, you were shorting the Broncos. I think they're fine. I think they're like a six seed. And they're like a wild card team. I'm more on your side from this respect.

I don't know what Wilson is anymore. It's like, I don't think he's a superstar QB anymore, but could he be with those receivers? I also really like Javante Williams. I was going nuts last year because I had him on every fantasy team and I just felt like they didn't use him properly. I didn't think they wrote him the way they should have.

And I think that offense, if Wilson is back, if your finger excuse is a real thing, if he starts scampering around a little bit, change of scenery, it's basically like a second wife thing. I could see where their offense is really good. No, it's just like... I can too, but I just don't... First of all, Nathaniel Hackett, I think, is a good coach,

but I don't think he's a great coach. But I also, I don't know how... I think we're on the same page about Wilson not being the guy he was, and the only way you can justify having the same odds as the team that just won the Super Bowl, having better odds than the NFC runner-up

last year in the Niners, significantly better odds than the defending AFC champion Bengals, who have a ton of cap space. The Chargers are a plus 2,500. They have the most cap space in the league going in today before the Mike Williams extension. The Ravens are at plus 2,000.

I think that this is just a completely, I think this plus 1,200 thing for the Broncos is completely out of whack. I agree with that. I just like the Broncos the last couple of years. So we'll see. Sometimes the teams that go from the, we had the worst quarterback situation possible to, Oh, now we have a competent guy. Like that really can be worth something, but so much depends on the free agency draft. When, uh, when we come back,

we're going to go through a couple of storylines, including some of these franchise tag things. Cause I know you've been monitoring that. So let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious.

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Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, coming back. We forgot to mention how funny it was that they dropped the Wilson trade bomb right after Rodgers thought he was going to get his whole day of Aaron Rodgers

staying in Green Bay contract extension. Then it was, what, 20 minutes? And he was blown off the pages. You forgot the David Stern-esque let's get Calvin Ridley out of the headlines move there as well. Oh. You think the league asked? Like, hey, can you guys do us a favor?

If you guys have any moves, just speed it up. Just speed it up. That's all we're saying. We heard rumors about this Russell Wilson thing. Hey, just if you could go. I thought the Rodgers getting blown off, the blown off Twitter, social media, the first segment of every TV show.

Yeah, then he tried to grab the headlines back, went, hey, I haven't signed the contract yet, which nobody said, by the way. They just said he agreed to terms. That was a lot of money for Aaron Rodgers. $150 million guaranteed? $153 million, $50 million a year. There's still a little bit of debate

about what the actual structure of the contract is. Jay Glazer said it was over $50 million a year. I'm going to believe that. I can normally take that to the bank. And $153 million guaranteed is what Ian Rappaport said. So that'll probably end up being what it looks like. Devante Adams is back on the franchise tag. And this was this was the inevitability. Like I don't there was no other option that made any sense for Rodgers. I think that part of the delay, like the player empowerment

era, right, never has never really come to the NFL. But part of it and part of what what Rodgers could exert was waiting until franchise tag deadline day to make sure that everything was going in the right direction and then committing. It's sort of basically, it's not the same thing as kind of holding them hostage, but it's more like, hey, I just want to make sure I like your moves before I opt in, which by the way, is under contract. So it was a weird thing to begin with. But essentially, he just wasn't going to exert any pressure once he realized that everything was going in the right direction for him. Adams was coming back, and he liked what they were going to do in March. So how do we explain the last 18 months of Aaron Rodgers,

whatever the hell you would call it? This was just all money grab the whole time? No, no, no, no, no, no. It was a Jordan Love thing, first of all. And it's funny because for a while there, I was under the... I started to think the Jordan Love pick in a weird way helped

because it pissed him off. It led to multiple MVPs. It got him angry. And it got him a little refocused. There was a part of... There's a reason they took Jordan Love. And it was that the Packers thought he was on a downward trajectory.

Just in general. It's an older quarterback. He wasn't... He had some some iffy years there and he is playing at the highest level of his career and he's playing at he's the best quarterback in football now. And so that was me for a couple years. And now I'm

like, oh, wait, actually, they probably should just have T Higgins. That'd be good. That'd be good. He was the next wide receiver off the board. It'd be nice to have T Higgins. So I've come around on that. But I think it started with Jordan Love and then it started, you know, that dovetails with not having picked a receiver, not, you know, the rumor on draft night was they love

Justin Jefferson. They didn't trade up for Justin Jefferson. That would have changed the entire trajectory of the franchise. It's always funny how the rumors always tend to be the, oh, we were going to trade up for the guy who turned out to be the best guy. Or, oh, we were going to take up for the guy who turned out to be the best guy. Or, oh, we were going to take... The Celtics love to do this too. Oh, we love Tyler Hero. It's like, did you? We positive? Anyway, go ahead.

So I think it started as that. And then the best way to repair a relationship in sports is just giving people guaranteed money. Happens over and over again. Oh, this guy's unhappy. Cool. Let's throw in some cash. So it ended up just being a sign of respect, a sign of a renewed relationship that he got more money. I don't think it started out as a money thing. I started, I think it started out as a respect thing and all respect things eventually become money things. It may be a little bit of a pandemic thing too. People got weird during the pandemic. People got weird. So we just... People got weird. Yeah, okay. Well, he's got a lot of time to think. A lot of time to think about what you want. A lot of time to think. A lot of time to overthink.

Sure. And the Packers, now they're stuck paying him $50 million a year and we just watched him put... What did he put? Stuck? 10 points in the playoff game at home?

I mean, he's still pretty good. Eh. I mean, 10 points in the playoff game? $50 million is the ceiling that was put on by Mahomes when he signed for 10 years, $500. I think that this will move quarterback salaries a little bit, just in the sense that I think people thought

no one was going to go over Mahomes. I think that's untrue. I think people are going to start going, Josh Allen was in the 40s. The Lamar Jackson contract negotiations is getting a little weird, but that should end up in the 40s. Hopefully blocking for reported. It was around 35,

which I don't think you should sign for at this point. But this is some quarterbacks are always going to be overpaid and I'd rather pay Aaron Rogers than Russell Wilson, who's going to probably want a new deal in the next 18 months. Well, I'm glad

I look forward to their car. Derek Carr's up for a new deal in the next 18 months. Well, I'm glad I look forward to Derek Carr. Derek Carr's up for a new deal. You want to pay him? I like Derek Carr at 20 for this year. Isn't that what he's getting? Yeah. A lot of guys, but that's a pretty nice price for this year.

And then I'll figure it out. I'm excited. I get to bet against Rogers in the playoffs again next year, because that's been pretty lucrative. And I honestly, it has Aaron Rogers is a playoff favorite last couple of years. It's, it's been, it's been lucrative. And honestly, it has. Aaron Rodgers is a playoff favorite last couple years. It's been lucrative. I think that contract

is going to make it really hard for them to put the right kind of team around him. And I'm not positive he cares. Okay. First of all, it's not that much more than he was already making, just in the grand scheme of things. He was the highest paid player in the NFL

going into this before the Mahomes deal. 50? He was in the high 30s before. It's not like he was a rookie. NFL going into this before the Mahomes deal. 50? He was in the mid-high 30s before. It's not like he was a rookie. I don't remember six-time Super Bowl champ Tom Brady ever grabbing 50 million out of the cap. That was why he was such a magnanimous Super Bowl hero for us. I don't remember him just chewing up the cap.

And then he had the exact same scenario as this, but he left. It's true. It's probably the right move. Did you see our team the next year? He left just in time. So let me ask, who in the NFC is better next year than the Packers? Because the Cowboys seem to be fading a little bit. They have Mike McCarthy as their coach, their cap situation.

Even after two restructures, it seems to be restructuring to get Dalton schultz's franchise tag under the cap which is not as you know i don't i would never throw the cowboys in there the niners and rams niners and rams and i still think the rams just because they have put such an emphasis on short term short term short, short term. It was last year and this year. It was basically a two-year window for them, right? And then the check's going to come. I don't think there's nearly...

I don't think there's any depth to speak of in the NFC. I think there's so much depth in the AFC that it's unbelievable. And if you're the fifth best team in the AFC right now, you'd be in the NFC championship game. What about the Eagles, though, with the three first-round picks on top of everything else they have going?

I mean, maybe. First of all, the cynicism in the league around the Deshaun Watson thing right now has blown my mind. I was in Indy last week, and I was talking to people and everyone said, oh, Watson can go here, Watson can go here. According to

the New York Times, this just came out, the grand jury is convening on Friday. And the idea that NFL teams are making plans before that, or they're saying there was an ESPN report today that they don't see it as a deterrent. Excuse me? A what? The grand jury is not on the NFL's league year timeline here. And so that part of the rumor mill to me has been, frankly, offensive. But I don't know what else. Who else is available if you're the Eagles right now? Are you saying? I don't know. I mean, I don't know what the Eagles could do.

Are you just trying to get me to say Minshew's name? So I threw out Minshew for the Seahawks, but I guess they're going to go with Drew Locke. I said that on Green. I thought it was like a possible Minshew-Mariota combo. A Pacific-Northwest both guys. I think they're going to roll with

Geno and Drew Locke, right? And the draft pick. That sounds like a tanking season if they're doing that. I think that's what they have to do. In Seattle? I think Philly would be the wild card for me

because of all the players they are. The rebuilding they've already done plus the draft that they have coming and their ability to move around or even if they just take all those picks. I think that's the wild card. Then Arizona, Tampa. Some of the teams that made the playoffs last year,

I'm thumbs down on. Especially Tampa. Tampa feels like... Tampa. That's another team where the check came for the giant feast. I totally agree. And all the cap nerds were basically saying

that the Bucs were just pushing. Everybody keeps saying all these teams are all in. The Bucs were the team that was all in. Right. And it was a two-year run. Godwin got hurt. They had some bad luck last year with injuries. It was worth it. It's like when you talk about the Lakers a couple

days ago with Isola. You won a title. It was worth it. Everything worked out. Stop complaining. Same thing for the Rams. You won a title. Any franchise tag stuff before we go that jumped out at you? No. No JC Jackson.

Looks like the pass is going to let him go. I mean, listen, don't you trust Belichick and cornerbacks at this point? I liked having a number one cornerback. It's one of my weird picadillos as a football fan. I like having the one guy who can maybe cover a receiver. Everything made sense today.

Dalton Schultz, maybe not, but Gusecki made sense. Jesse Bates made sense. Chris Godwin made sense. Mike Williams' extension made sense. I think the Chargers have a real chance to make a couple moves and be an AFC contender this year. So everything kind of made sense to me. They should hire, if the Chargers are going to make moves,

somebody to help Brandon Staley. Kind of understand sense to me. They should hire, if the Chargers are going to make moves, somebody to help Brandon Staley. Kind of understand advanced metrics? Yeah. Yeah, maybe an advanced metrics helper. He prides himself on that. He prides himself on that. He needs to rethink, I think, some of his strategy with it. When he started not going for it,

and he got in his head like a guy at a blackjack table who had lost a couple hands, that's when it got bad. And I said, no, no, Brandon. You're the guy who goes for it. You can't now punt on fourth and one. You've committed to this strategy. So nothing else jumped out to you?

I mean, it was a pretty... Listen, the tight end with Schultz and Gusecki, the tight end tag is real low. It's a $7 million difference between tight ends and wide receivers. I think we might see Gusecki was split out wide 85% of the time last year, which I believe was more than Cooper Cuff was. I think we might see a replay

of what Jimmy Graham went through seven years ago, which is that Mike Gusecki tried to say he's a wide receiver. And then they have another, I don't know if you guys remember this, but this will be such an exciting story to follow. No, at the when

Jimmy Graham tried to prove he was a wide receiver, he basically had people testify that he wasn't basically, it wasn't that good of a tight end really. It was kind of funny. So it's going to be, I don't know how Gusecki proves he's not in a fantasy football world. I don't know if Gusecki would prove he was a wide receiver.

What's your number one storyline to watch before we go? Coming up, now that we're heading into the draft. Is there anything that we should be focused on?

I mean, I guess the Watson thing. I mean, I'm intrigued to see the quarterbacks after the combine because, and there's a handful

of guys like Jordan Davis in this draft who I'm just fascinated to see where they go. I think that, you know, PFF this morning had Malik Willis mock two to the Lions. And I'm just really curious

where that goes. Because it's funny, because I've been laughing about this for months, but Ian Rappaport had a story in November about the quarterbacks, and somebody was like, so one of the scouts was like, well, you know, there's no first-round quarterbacks. Wait till the coaches get involved. That always happens this time of year. And so all it takes is Dan Campbell or somebody to fall

in love with one of these guys. David Tepper falls in love with Kenny Pickett. David Tepper is a pit booster. Steven Ruiz just told me that. Matt Rule recruited Kenny Pickett to Temple. That seems like there could be two top six, top seven quarterbacks. Wow. It always happens. They always

tell us how, no, no, it's not a quarterback draft. Yeah, every year they start talking themselves into them. So F1, when does that show come out? The Netflix season four? Do you want to reveal that you're a Formula One fan now? I am. I watched the first two seasons. I loved it.

I knew I was going to love it. I was never like, no, no, you guys are wrong. It was just like, I just want to be in the right place when I dive into this. It was everything everybody said. going to love it. I was never like, no, no, you guys are wrong. It was just like, I just want to be in the right place when I dive into this. It was everything everybody said. I'm into it. I'm excited for this season. I'm going to be kind of following it.

Plus, there's no baseball. I have more room. What were you going to do? Were you going to watch baseball? Well, those three hours of Red Sox would always be on. Now it's like, I need more stuff. I need more stuff to be on. Who were you impressed by? Who won the show for you?

Alright, so I'm two seasons in. I did like Verstappen. Now I know he won last year, so it feels a little cheating, but I did like that he had the 33 car. Obviously I'm going to gravitate toward that. I liked his demeanor. I liked that he got a little

testy. He shoved the driver in one of the episodes, which I really appreciate. He's a lunatic. Yeah, I like that. I liked his demeanor. I liked that he got a little testy. He shoved the driver in one of the episodes, which I really appreciated. He's a lunatic. I like that. Is that a cool pick or no? It's not a cool pick, but his competitiveness is a detriment to some of the races, and that actually is cool.

He pushes the edge too much, which is a type of cool. Look, it's a reality show that manipulated me, but the guy who got brought in by Red Bull mid-season whose mom was in jail for six years, I was in that whole story. Yeah. I'm like, all right, now I'm going to root for this guy.

There are some tough news about that. Okay. And then Gasly, who got demoted and then succeeded near the end. So that pulled my heartstrings. I also love Lewis Hamilton refusing to participate in the first season. And then he's like the first face you see in the second season because he clearly realized, oh my God, I screwed up. It's too much of a chalk pick to say you like Ricardo, though, right? Because they steered the whole season one around me liking him. He became the star of the Netflix show in the first series because of what you're talking about. Ferrari and Mercedes didn't participate. Those were the two biggest cars in the sport that year.

And so they just said, we're just going to make this show between Ricardo. One of the things they're really good at is ignoring things that they don't think are interesting. It's a reality show. They did it with love and fun. You sent Russillo and I a text the first week he started watching. We were just like, are they going to pretend Lewis Hamilton doesn't exist?

The answer was yes. They are going to pretend Lewis Hamilton doesn't exist. I mean, they did that with George Russell's drive two years ago. They're just like, oh, cool. We don't really have anything on this. So according to the Netflix viewer, this doesn't exist, which is fine. That's why it's perfect TV. There's only 10 episodes. They're telling a story. I'm okay with

it. There's a subsection of Formula One fan who get really upset about the Netflix kind of the Netflix mentality of some fans. I'm good with it. It's brought tons of American fans. There's a reason that Austin is somebody told me the other day. Someone with the Dolphins told me the other day when I was in

Indy for the Combine. The Formula One race in Miami is like Super Bowl ticket prices right now because everybody wants to go to Miami to watch this. So who's your guy? Who's your favorite? So I've tried to root for Haas because they're an American team. And then they got bought out by the Russians. And now they've been unbought out by the Russians. So I'm not really sure. That was as of yesterday. I'm not really sure where they stand. I like Mercedes. I'm still maybe a McLaren situation.

It's hard. I want to be the American fan. And the closest to that is Haas. I need an American driver. Yeah. So we've failed again as a country, it seems like. Well, yeah.

We used to be. Here's the thing. It's like if you look at like Ferrari in the 60s, we had Americans in those cars. There's no law that says we can't have

great American drivers in Formula One. Just the NASCAR became popular. Maybe the resurgence will lead to some F1 stuff. Yeah.

All right. So you're going to be recapping season four on which feed? On the F1 feed we have, I think. I can't remember. I don't know. I think we'll be tweeting out TV stuff. Yeah. And then I'm going to start to get into it. So we'll have to

We're going to pod. Yeah, we'll keep talking about it. All right. Kevin Card, good to see you. What does possible sound like for your All right, Kevin Carter, good to see you. Reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, my friend Van Lathan is here. He is one of the hosts of the Ringerverse podcast.

He's one of the hosts of Higher Learning. Right now, we're going to play a game called Do You Have a Take? I'm going to throw some things at you. You can pass if you don't like the take. You can just pass. You can say, no, I'm out. Or have a take and we'll go.

First one. Calvin Ridley suspended for a year for gambling do you have a take yes it has nothing to do with Calvin Ridley okay let's hear we have to stop the clown show that goes on on Twitter whenever something like this happens

okay you gotta stop the clown show all right I gotta be real Calvin Ridley gets suspended right and we leap some of us on twitter we leapt from a guy putting down 1500 bucks on a parlay something that he should never have done to him being fucking shoeless joe jack Jackson in like a record amount of time. We all know the tweet. We saw it. Emmanuel Acho put a tweet out there of all of these plays with Calvin Ridley

and then insinuated that he was throwing games. Look, here's the deal. I sometimes can be a victim of this. We all can be a victim of this. We all can be a victim of this. We gotta stop the fucking clown show. There is a gulf between a guy laying down a parlay getting suspended,

which he deserved, by the way. Like, remember they suspended Webster's dad for doing that in 1963. The guy who played Webster's dad, Alex Karras. He got suspended in 1963 for doing that same thing. With Paul Horny. This is well documented that this is a sports no-no. Calvin Ridley earned his year-long suspension.

But before we start doing the whole thing for engagement where we dive into him and dive into his play and start asserting that he's throwing games, come on guys. We got to stop the fucking clown show. The clown show was some of the takes yesterday were

pathetic. I just got to be real about it. Pathetic. Disappointed in some of you guys out there. When people jump into uh i'm sure the logic of well was this why he disappeared for some of the games last year did he already have a gambling problem it's like maybe he just made some dumb bets i thought the suspension was too long i would have got six games yeah yeah because i i don't think the nfl can have it both ways in the 60s when you mentioned about Webster's dad, Alex Karras and Paul Horning,

there was real fear with game fixing that dated back to the college basketball scandals and a whole bunch of stuff, and even way, way back to the 1919 World Series, because they could remember that. And they never wanted to let that in, and they always went over the top with it. But now gambling is such a part of sports. It's a part of the dialogue. We have a partnership with Fado on the ringer. We talk about odds. Everybody talks about odds. The announcers talk about odds. We see during games, it used to be the no-no for Al Michaels to even, he would have to do this roundabout insinuation of, you know,

some people out there are going to care about this extra point. Now they'll just talk about it. So the dialogue's out there. And if you're telling me he wasn't playing and he bet $1,500, like, I guess I need more information. If you're telling me he bet on like the Bengals Arizona game on a FanDuel account and he bet $1,500 on a parlay and he lost. And now he can't play football for a year or get paid to play football for a year. I need more information.

Because you can't tell me gambling's evil, but then have gambling everywhere in every facet of the product I'm watching. So, I agree. It reminds me of the Sha'Carri Richardson situation, right?

Sha'Carri Richardson, of course you guys know American Track Star, six? Sha'Carri Richardson, of course, you guys know, American track star, six fastest woman in the world, 100 meter dash. She smokes weed, which everybody, you know what I mean? She smokes weed and she gets popped for it. This is after the death of her mother.

The entire thing. She gets popped for it. She gets popped for smoking and she can't run in the Olympics. Now, I felt a way about that until we had sonja richards ross on higher learning and sonja richards ross who loves track loves she carry loves all she says look you know that you cannot use drugs in competition it's a stupid rule but it is a rule you can't do that in competition she really's a stupid rule, but it is a rule. You can't do that in competition. She really kind of fucked herself. And that kind of changed my mind on this. This has been collectively

bargained. Players and the owners have agreed as far as this situation is. I, from a common sense, practical perspective, I completely agree with you. And maybe in a future CBA, this will change. But for right now, it's something that you can't do. And it's stupid. And it oftentimes takes cases like this to illuminate how stupid some of these things are. And maybe this will be the sort of jumping off point to that. But for right now, the NFL is going to be very draconian about people betting on games. So either there's movement to adjust things or don't bet on the games.

But are they going to be draconian? Because we also have the Miami Dolphins owner who was alleged by Brian Flores, his old coach, that the owner offered him 100K per loss, which seems way worse than Calvin Ridley doing a $1,500 parlay. So my thing is like,

if this was a six game suspension, is the message sent the same way? I feel like probably, yeah. If you bet on the Falcons, that's different. And from what I've seen from the reporting, I've not seen that piece of it yet. Have you?

I thought that it was suggested. I thought it was suggested that he did bet on games at the Falcons ring. Rachel said that. So Rachel said on higher. Well, we need to know. We need the facts on this. Right.

Right. Right. So I thought that was alleged. But even if he did, right, there were still games he didn't play in because he wasn't there. He was taking a mental health leave. So he's still not. I mean, he might have inside information on the machinations of the team. Right. He'd be a better. He'd be a sharp in that term. So he's still not, I mean, he might have, he'd have inside information on the machinations of the team, right?

He'd be a better, he'd be a sharp in that term. But at the same time, he didn't have any ability to really influence the game unless he's going to call everybody and be like, look, I need y'all to win by more than three points. Well, it's like the gateway drug thing, right? Where you think like, well, you put that parlay down and two weeks later, you're way down. And now you're using your side information to try to win the money back. But I think it's a little specious, personally. Well, I mean, look, once again,

I was sort of less agitated by that. I would tend to agree, but I was less agitated by that than I was of the fact that now we're going to have is Calvin Black Sox Ridley ridley we're all gonna go through this thing for like come on man like let's not let's let's let's pump the brakes a little bit can't the guy make a parlay i want to buy a ridley jersey i want to support ridley i just

wanted to make a parlay all right next topic do i care about kanye albums anymore oh i'm definitely not gonna putt here uh you have to care you have to care so i have to go what did what did he download donda 2 on stem stem player now you don't have to this is a different question two questions two different questions yeah the question that you asked was do you have to care about a kanye album bill we gotta care because pop culture is our bread and butter it's our job we have to care we don't have to indulge i didn't i'm not buying a stem player 200 bucks 200 bucks like look man there's a lot of things out there for 200 that man can go do like i can send a nosebleeds at a laker game yeah 200 200 bucks i'm not i'm not buying by the way the sim player is a fantastic piece of technology if you actually written read up on it and stuff like that so if

you're an aspiring musician or you want to fuck around with beats or do whatever the sim player is actually pretty awesome i can't see myself buying a Stem Player just to download music. I'm not going to be making music on it or anything like that. But you can like, you know what it does and shit? I don't. Like you can like buy a Stem Player, you can break up Dawn to two and put

different samples at different spaces and you can like create on it. So it's actually a cool little piece of, little contraption, but I'm not going to buy it. We have to care because Kanye West might be the most consequential pop culture figure in the world right now. So when he, when he drops an album,

we have to care. We just don't have to care emotionally or musically anymore because it's not, it's not, it's not nine. It's not 2009 anymore. Yeah. But is he the most influential pop culture person because of his behavior

or because of the art he's created? Because at this point, I feel like it's 98% the behavior and 2% the art. It no longer matters, Bill. That little bit. What do you mean? Really? You think it does? So, I think all of those things

I think all of those things because of the Kanye West and the Kim Kardashian have become um inseparable from one another it really doesn't matter why in pop culture today

it really doesn't matter why you In pop culture today, it really doesn't matter why you matter. It just matters that you matter. Yeah, but think how sad that is, though. Bill, it's infinitely sad. This is a 21st century, you know, we've just gone down this snowball to hell. And now we're here with Kanye, who, i don't know meant a lot to me and my family and the music he made and was always kind of worried about him starting really from 2015 on but now it's like this is fucking sad to the point that i don't even want to listen to his

new album now you know what's crazy about this there's a a cultural aspect to this. Okay. Okay. Explain. So the cultural aspect to this, and I don't presume to know anything about your family's life or anything like that, but I've seen this before. In my family, I've seen the 16-year-old, 17, 18-year-old kid that's your cousin that goes out and scores 40 against bel-air and everybody's convinced that this motherfucker is next he's the whole year he's killing and then for whatever reason he's in your family so you can't get away from but over time this individual just unravels their life unravels socially they might be they might have some legal problems and then

by the time he's 25, 26, 27 years old you don't even give a fuck about basketball anymore or him in school anymore you just hope he's okay hey, bring him over here let him sit down we're at the family reunion hey bro, how you doing man?

man, I could have been i forget about all of that man remember coach lsu was calling no no no i don't care about that how is your state of mind and i think that like the only difference between that person and now is kanye west is more relevant pop culture i mean it's not just the music remember it's the fashion too and that's got billion dollar brands he's still doing stuff but i think that's that is the the sort of relationship that a lot of people have with him it's just like yo man yeah all of the other shit is great is this motherfucking gonna be all right because we still love him for the music that he created before is this what that's how my kids that's how my kids feel about it my kids were really upset that he did the pete davidson thing

the latest one with the video what's going on is he gonna kill pete davidson like they're asking me seriously like what what what do we do if kanye kills pete davidson i'm like i don't know think about it we should not be tolerating that shit think about that bill we should not be tolerating that shit we should like we should not be tolerating his continued harassment of p davidson and like all of that stuff like this is all intolerable behavior but nobody knows whether not to do this okay or not so we know what's happened i remember way back when on when i was writing for page two i wrote about the tyson zone when mike Mike Tyson became so bizarre that it got to the point where you would believe any story that was written about him where it could be like Mike Tyson got into a

fight with a tiger last night like oh that makes sense like any story I feel like Kanye is there now I would believe any Kanye story now yes anything that would be texted to me I would believe you can text me anything. You can be like, Kanye left and a UFO is gone. I'd be like, alright, you think I'll come back?

I was just about to say that. if tomorrow it said Kanye was building a special spaceship to fly to Mars, I'd be like, yeah,

that sounds about right. That makes sense. How much did it cost? Right. Alright, next one. Do you have a take? Do you have a take? Do you have a take

on Russell Westbrook being upset about how the Laker fans are treating him? Yeah, I do. I have a small one too. You go. So can I have two takes or do I have to bring it down to one take? No, you can, you have to, you can absolutely

have to. Okay, so these are, there's no rules these are, so I have two takes one is a human take and then one is the hard real world fact take the human take is of course of course man, of course of course, of course

I can't be, I get mad about what people say about me on Reddit. So obviously, if they had changed my last name to Westbrook, that's not going to fly to harass a man's wife and children in an arena because he can't stop turning the ball over. Think about that. Think about how fucked up a person you have to be. So all of that's true. So that's the human take. The second take is this is part of it and you very well fucking know it. Just to be real. The second part of it is there is a little bit there's a little bit of insincerity on russell westbrook's part in that type of situation this is part of it you damn well fucking know it russell westbrook has had a contentious relationship with the media for a very long time which he wasn't the nicest rosiest guy to the media um i would light up anyone i saw harassing a man's wife at a game but the westbrook all of these jokes on twitter these motherfuckers gonna get their jokes off

and you know damn well they're gonna get their jokes off so part of that is a little bit is a little bit like come on bro come on man i have both of your takes i'm signing off on both i'm adding a small one okay you come to the lakers you're making 44 million dollars a year they trade all this stuff for you and you stink for what people thought you were going to be, right? I mean, I was looking at his, there's wind shares per 48, which I always kind of liked as a stat. He's like seventh lowest from the bottom of like all players for wind shares, 48, his three point shooting, his turnovers, his defense, which is atrocious when you watch it, his attitude about the whole thing, where it's over and over again.

It seems like he's blamed the Lakers for not putting him in the right position, refuses to come off the bench. And at some point, it just seems like this isn't working. Maybe you just go away for the rest of the year. you know? And, and I, I know like Stephen A talked on first take today about how, when magic went at how bad the Westbrook trade was on NBA countdown that he knows, he knows that hurt Russ is like, I'm pretty sure Russ didn't know what was being said in a May countdown. But if you can't handle the heat that comes with making 44 million a year and letting an entire fan base down, it's to me like the, the yelling at the family, all that stuff's horrible,

but it seems like he's surprised that he's getting a bad reception, which is a different thing than how he's being treated because this has been the case the whole year. Don't you know who I am? I'm Russell Westbrook. I won the MVP in 2017. Don't you guys realize how good I am? And I don't think he realizes that he's just not that good anymore. You know, like he, he can still get to the basket and he can have a layup and with three guys and it's like, Oh, that kind of looked like the old Russ, but he's such a liability in so many ways. And now that his confidence has been shot, and he's not good if he doesn't have the ball all the time,

he's a liability. And I think that's the piece that he's not seeing. It's like, I haven't seen him say, man, they traded a lot to get me. I make $44 million this year and 47 next year. And I've sucked. And I got to do better. Have we heard him say that?

I mean, I've heard him say things that seemed like almost the inverse of that. I've heard him say like, you know, I can turn the ball over if I want, you know, I can shoot, I can miss shots. If I want,

I've heard him kind of say that before. Look, this is a humbling moment that comes from most, most athletes, right? We've seen other guys in this position. We've seen Allen Iverson in this position. We've seen, to a degree, Carmelo Anthony.

Allen Iverson handled it terribly. He handled it terribly. He handled it terribly. And he ditched Memphis. Right. So we've seen other guys in this position. Sometimes guys can be bad and then still write their way out because of how good they were, a la Kobe Bryant, right?

Kobe Bryant had been so good that when Kobe Bryant was no good anymore, we still deserve, he still deserved to leave with his gun smoking. Now, I guess my thing is, what would people have him do? Like, I think he's in a no-win situation even if when you're talking about the sitting out the rest of the season thing.

Let's say Russell Westbrook shuts it down for the rest of the season. With a fake injury, like back tightness. Fake injury, back tightness, right? in and out the rest of the season. Let's say Russell Westbrook shuts it down for the rest of the season. The Lakers. Fake injury, like back tightness. Fake injury, back tightness, right? Plantar fasciitis. Plantar fasciitis, whatever, right? Let's say he does that.

Corneal irritation. Let's say the Lakers go on a tear. Yeah. Looks fucking terrible. Austin Reeves, all of a sudden starts like he gets more minutes. I mean, they play not one-to-one there, but they start really balling. Looks fucking nuts. Now the story gets written like how bad was, what a big albatross he was.

There's no really way out of it. The reality is there is a thing that exists when you suit up for the Yankees or when you play for the Yankees, the Lakers, or when you go play for the Cowboys. And I've seen players, remember Kevin Brown? Big ass Kevin Brown? Oh, so many Yankees, yeah.

Yeah, it's like so many guys going to New York and then they just fucking can't fucking handle it. A-Rod barely kept his chin above water. Jason Giambi? Jason Giambi, it happens to so many guys. And it'll happen to you in Los Angeles too. And it was a bad trade, bad fit. But at some point-

So I think that's the key take because, you know, look, people are awful. I didn't need the Russell Westbrook situation to be like, oh, my God, I can't believe people. It's like people are fucking terrible. They're terrible to all public figures in all different ways. I'm not surprised that shitty things happen in that respect. The thing that's fascinating to me about the story is that it's a guy who used to be much better than he is now. Not realizing that at all.

That's the interesting part to me. You know? And athletes rarely do. Yeah, they rarely do. Like, if you're a boxer, they got to punch your brains out of your head to get you out of the ring.

They rarely do. Which is where he'll be next year on another team. You know, and it'll be like, oh, the Lakers, it didn't work. It'll be this person's fault, that person's fault. But I just think this is who he is as a basketball player tomorrow.

All right. Um, next one. This is my take. Do you have a take on this? Superman? Just, just not as cool as Batman and Spider-Man anywhere.

I don't know what the fuck happened. You're a ringer versus host. What did Superman do? How did Superman, first 12, 13, 14 years of my life the superman easily was the coolest superhero and now he's got to be looking at batman who's a fucking weirdo who hangs out in a cave with bats and he's tortured and he's got a dual identity and he's haunted by the death of his parents spider-man who's always like these dorky skinny

guys who you know they just have the ability to fucking parents. Spider-Man, who's always like these dorky, skinny guys who, you know, they just have the ability to fucking throw some webs around. And Superman's like, I'm the fucking man. I'm the biggest, most powerful dude. Why aren't I? Why did these other guys have the bigger movies? What happened to me?

So, I'm going to repeat a take that I gave to Sean on the big picture. With Rob. With Rob. Rob, I don't know if the big picture. Okay. With Rob. With Rob. Rob. Rob. I don't know if you've listened to Rob. Rob Mahoney.

He was on here last week. He's fucking good. He gets in and out so quick. Yeah. Boom. Great point. He's out. Yeah.

And I'm like, yo, are you going to say something else, motherfucker? Because I'm a drone on for 13 fucking minutes when I get it with Rob Smith. But so I'm going to drone on for 13 fucking minutes when I get it with Rob Smith. So I'm going to repeat a take. Superman is a boy's hero. Batman and Spider-Man, they're man's heroes. Heroes for when you're a man. So how do we reinvent Superman, then? How do we fix that?

Stories. The reason, see, when you're a kid, all you want are abilities. When you're an adult, all you want is for your heroes to overcome adversity. So, like, Superman can fly, heat vision, breath, all of that stuff. All of these different things, right?

And when you're a kid, you're like, oh my god, this guy can do everything. When you get to an adult, you go, okay, well, why doesn't he just fucking fix everything? Like, he can do everything. Just go knock it all out right but batman spider-man these motherfuckers got real problems spider-man broke got girl problems you know what i mean trying to skinny skinny you know what i'm saying so like he's got a gambling problem plays high stakes poker when he's not shooting the movie the whole you know, you know, the whole time these guys got issues. Batman PTSD.

Yeah. Like you could you could you could like Bill, really, if you sneak up on Batman and you push him, you could potentially crack his ribs like he's a human God. So it's more about how these guys overcome. And that seems more heroic because of the odds against them. There areman arcs that are amazing there is one i'm not gonna nerd out on you guys one called all-star superman which is essentially superman throughout different times in his life coming to terms with his mortality and coming to terms with different parts of of being superman what it means to be superman

i was talking to somebody like, yo, don't fuck around with any of these other things. Just do that. Put Superman in a situation where there's something for him to lose. And not just Lois Lane, where there's something for Superman to lose, where Superman is up against really fucked up odds. Not just for us to see how he's going to get out of it, because we know he's going to get out of it. We went to the movies to see gonna get out of it because we know he's gonna get out of it we went to the movies to see him get out of it but we want to feel for him and it's just hard to feel for a god and the older you get the more having all of those powers they seem like it's for kids it seemed like baby powers like what like what could well i'm the fastest in the universe i'm the fucking strongest in the universe i'm like all of this i'm in i'm in i'm unstoppable i'm like, all of this, I'm unstoppable.

I'm like, it just doesn't, it's not as cool as the motherfucker who has to drive a car and like rig shit in order to beat the bad guys. It's just less cool.

So the key to Superman is either gear him toward little kids or give him a kryptonite thing that's actually ironically kryptonite, not kryptonite, but like he just kryptonite. Not kryptonite,

but he just has terrible taste in women. Just over and over again. He's just in bad relationships that he can't get out of and he keeps thinking he can salvage. And maybe that's the way to bring him down to size. That makes him more relatable.

Maybe that's how they have to do it. But you remember, here's the only thing about that. He's six foot four and he's handsome as shit so so it's like it's it's it's it's like really it's really tough right it's like but he just likes he just likes crazy ladies he can't help it but see he just he likes that crazy look in their eye this is why the black superman thing works because that like Superman thing works. Because that'll give them something right there. That'll give them something to overcome.

Superman saves a whole bunch of people. Yeah, fuck it. Who cares? Go back to where you came from. So maybe that's the answer. Black Superman. Maybe that's where this ends. I think so.

That's where we have to go. Do you have a take on the 2022 Oscars? You know what? I don't. Great. Pass. How about Chet Holmgren? Oh, I have takes on Chet Holmgren.

Great. We're going to talk about him with Tate Frazier in a second. Give me your Chet Holmgren take. Yo. Chet Holmgren. So would you say, let me ask you a question first. Would you say that the demise of the American white basketball player

is over? Has that thing come back or are we still in the doldrums of that? I think the foreigners saved it. But they're not American though. I'm talking about fucking Larry Bird here. We haven't had a Larry Bird since Larry Bird.

We haven't had a guy. French L Bird. We haven't had a guy. French Lick Indiana. Gugliotta, Adam Morrison. You might be right. We haven't had a guy like that. Remember, there was some talk that it might be fucking Kurt Heinrich at one point.

J.J. Redick. J.J. Redick had a great career. Nash is a foreigner though. He's Canadian. He's a foreigner, right? But he was the closest thing to him. The closest thing to him is Canadian. He's a foreigner, right? But he was the closest thing to him. He's Canadian. Chet Holmgren

is the one. Chet Holmgren is the one. You guys are back, Bill. You guys don't have to settle for the bullshit of just owning the whole fucking team.

I'm sorry for you guys. You guys just have to settle for the bullshit of owning the whole fucking team you got like i'm sorry for you guys you guys just have to settle for owning the team you don't have to just settle for owning the team anymore and space in the floor we can space the floor chet holmgren is a man and i think that it's going to obviously depend on how he can grow into his body but i don't think he has to grow into his body as much as people think that he has to grow into his body in today's game. He's going to obviously have to get a little bigger, right? And a little stronger.

But I've been watching him since he was in high school, and I think that you know this, and he checks all the boxes. And he's a dog. Like, he's competitive. Yes. Like,'s a dog. He's competitive. He's not out there flopping around. That's the thing that separates the Euro guys.

They come from fucking countries where they gotta, on the way to the basketball court, they gotta watch out for a fucking dirty bomb. So when they come over here, they're like, you guys got it easy. Those guys are actually dogs. That's like Jokic. Knocked down one of the Morris brothers.

Bruh, has he come back? I don't think he's come back yet. He's come back yet. Right. I think he thought Jokic, I think he thought it was a game. Jokic is like, yo, do you know where I come from? I used to drink vodka in my baby bottle. So I think that Holmgren is the one that's going to change that.

I'm really high on Chad Holmgren. Had been since he was in high school. I love this draft and last year's draft that came into the league. It's fucking stacked. Jalen Green's not even one of the best five draft picks. If you were redoing it, Jalen Green's been really good lately, too, in the Rockets. It's really, really loaded. Do you care about F1?

Like car racing? Yeah. You didn't get into the Netflix show? No. What are you talking about? Do you care about, last one, Russell Wilson on the Denver Broncos? Oh, yeah. I do care. What's your prediction? We talked about it

with Clark. My take was that I thought last year and a half, I didn't think he played very well. My take is this is not quite a Hersch half, I didn't think he played very well. My take is, this is not quite a Herschel Walker trait. It's not quite that. And Russell Wilson was way better than Herschel Walker ever was. Although, if you count Herschel Walker's

USFL numbers, Herschel Walker was way better the entire time than anyone. He needs a documentary. It would be the most boring documentary ever, but he needs one more than anybody. I went and looked this up. The numbers aren't as... The numbers are pretty

fucking solid career. And if you count the USFL numbers... His college is incredible. He should have won the Heisman as a freshman. The college numbers are fucking nuts. But the reason why I say Herschel Walker trade is if what I've seen of the Hall is correct,

the Broncos are going to be competitive right now. I mean, that division is stacked. So I like the fact that Russell Wilson is competitive enough to want to see Patrick Mahomes twice a year and play Derek Carr and all that stuff. But if you look at that haul, that is potentially a franchise-changing haul. If you're talking about two firsts, two seconds, if you draft right out of that, a starting tight end, if you draft right out of that, you can stack a team and build an unbelievable squad to get rid of Russell Wilson at

this point and get all of that back. I'm going to be honest with you. They would have to be terrible at their job of being football talent evaluators not to find some way to win that training. I thought it was good for them too. It was time to move on. We'll see what

happens to him in Denver my last thing for you what do you have a take on Ben Simmons

not my Ben Simmons the other Ben Simmons he's an LSU guy I know it hurts but

kinda you have to claim him no you have to claim him he played for LSU when they list

LSU people it's like Shaq Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, a.k.a. Chris Jackson, going down the Strowmouse-Swift. But Ben Simmons is on there. And you have to own him. He's part of your legacy.

Never went to class. No, he went to LSU. LSU's Ben Simmons. It's like a weird thing to where it happened he went there but he kind of didn't go there he never really wanted to be a tiger he was just passing the time uh look i don't know what to say but i think if he ever gets on the court with those guys then i really i'm one of the call me a a fuckhead a stupid person i'm one of the guys who believes that if the vaccine mandate thing changes and Kyrie gets on the court

with Kevin Durant and Ben Simmons with adding Seth Curry, I personally believe that they have a fucking dynamite team. I just don't see how anyone, anyone, anyone can make a prediction when Ben Simmons is involved. You just don't know what the, anyone, anyone can make a prediction with Ben Simmons involved.

You just don't know what the fuck he's going to do. He shot 34% from the free throw line in the playoffs last year in 12 games. He missed two-thirds of his free throws. You just need him to play defense and start the break, bro. Play defense, take the ball off the rim, start your break, get it to your guys. He shouldn't even be going to the line. I would hack a Ben him. He's coming in, we're fouling him. Start your break. Get it to your guys. He shouldn't even be going to the line. I would hackabend him.

He's coming in. We're fouling him. Put that dude in the line. Let's try to get him out. All right, Van Lathan, you and I are on the Rewatchables next week. We're doing a major movie. I don't want to spoil it, but it's a major famous movie that we're doing for next Monday. So I will see you then. Good to see you as always. Listen to Higher Learning.

Listen to the Ringerverse. Peace. All right. Tate Frazier is here. He is Ringer employee number one. He was the first producer of the Bill Simmons podcast. He worked with us for a couple of years. He's now doing the Titus and Tate podcast

for Fox, as well as a whole bunch of other things. And most importantly, the number one Coach K anti-fan that I know. And this is Coach K month, his last home game, which of course he lost, a new book coming out. And I just know you're in your glory, Tate Frazier. Yeah, Bill, I'm so happy to be back here. You obviously were the first person that said, hey, this Tate Frazier kid, he's got something. I don't know what he's got, but he's got something.

And a lot of people looked at you like you were insane. They're like, I don't see it. I don't know what's going on. But first and foremost, I have to thank you for sticking your neck out for me. And we had some of the most fun times of my career. I learned so much. And to be back on this side of things

and to have Kyle here who took the seat as the producer, it feels like a reunion. And I'm so happy to be back. Especially when we talk about Coach K. Yeah, it feels like a reunion. A lot of the time, as we got to know each other,

because we're spending a lot of time together. Yeah. You're from North Carolina. You're a huge Hoops fan, huge college Hoops fan. And I immediately gravitated to your dislike of Coach K. You felt more strongly about your feelings against Coach K than anyone in my life about anything. You were able to twist things around. People say like, I'm a homer and I'm against the Lakers.

I'm against New York teams. I'm against Le LeBron whoever yeah you're actually like a legitimate anti-coach K homer yeah uh Curry Kirkpatrick wrote a great article way back in the day about Michael Jordan one of my favorite pieces and it's named the unlikeliest homeboy I think I'm the likeliest homeboy you know what I mean I I love where I'm from I love that I went to North Carolina. As you know, I would argue that North Carolina is the basketball state, which goes into the Homer part of all that. But I know Coach K, who he really is, and not who he wants the world to perceive him to be. So I think that's what I feel like my place was to come out and say,

hey, wait a second here. It's not necessarily all rosy. It's a little bit dark. And that's hell and that's Satan over there in Durham. So I asked you to read the Coach K book, which I know you were probably going to read it anyway. There was some good stuff that came out of it. I just want to go through some of it. Yeah, please.

Number one, my favorite, just like the tidbits and the stuff that floated out was his relationship with Bobby Knight just falls apart. His mentor, by the end of it, Bobby Knight is like basically just being completely rude to him at retirement ceremonies. And, uh, and it, it dives into a lot of detail about why this happened. There's probably a little jealousy on coach Knight's part. Absolutely. Is that the, his, his protege kind of becomes bigger than he did, which I get. But my favorite piece of all of this was how mad Knight was that coach K coached the Olympic team more than once. And I know that was in your wheelhouse more than anybody. Like he's like, you do this once and you hand it off. Like, what does this guy do? And he coached it three times.

You must've loved this. Well, you know, as we talk about with all of these great coaches that have coached, you know, Team USA, whether it's like a Chuck Daly or Bobby Knight in 1984, you know, it was Dean Smith, obviously, in 76. All those coaches, they looked at it as an honor. It was prestigious, but they

also knew that, hey, I'm not bigger than USA basketball. I passed the baton to the next person. And I think one similarity that I will give Coach K that is similar to Michael Jordan is that he never wanted to pass the baton. You know what I mean? In any sense, like Michael Jordan, you know, Kobe's like copying how he's playing. He's like, I refuse to pass the baton. LeBron's rigged 23. He's like, I will not pass the baton. Coach K is very similar in that sense. And Bobby Knight called him out on that. And obviously, Coach K is the king of the mountain.

No one calls him out anymore. And as soon as the one guy that actually can call him out, he's like, okay, cut him off forever. I would rather have the people around me that are my yes men. And that be what it is. And the funny thing, Bill, I learned this when I was doing the five-star thing. Jerry Colangelo, he told me the story of how Coach K became the USA coach. You know who got him the job? Dean Smith. Really? Yeah. So they had a meeting of all the basketball minds, right? They all come in Chicago. Michael's there. Dean Smith's there. All these guys. And the argument was who's

going to take over after Larry Brown, you know, USA basketball, we got to get back. This is the redeem team moment. And Popovich was the one answer for the pro coach and the college coach was coach K and Dean Smith was, you know, kind of the arbiter there and told Jerry that he thought coach K was the perfect guy for it.

So he got the job because of Dean Smith and then he hoarded the job for three separate terms. So unbelievable. That's enough. Yeah. the job because of dean smith and then he hoarded the job for three separate terms so unbelievable that's enough yeah dean smith was probably having a marlboro red outside the building and he had the idea and then came to regret it 12 years later yeah he's like big mistake yeah i thought i never thought about it it always bothered me that coach k just had to strangle the job but then to hear bob knight just call him out, it was fascinating because I got the book. I skimmed through it. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I didn't care about,

about how he met his wife and what it was like when he took over West Point. I wanted the juicy stuff. The Bob Knight thing was fascinating. And it did seem like it was a lot of tiny slates. Now we should mention Bob Knight, not the easiest guy to get along with. No, not at all. I mean, he is the definition of what we would call like the classic archetype of a coach. That's an asshole, right? I mean, he, he, he is the one who invented that, that everyone else is copying. And the fascinating part to me about Kay is that over the years, he kind of mimicked a different master, if that makes sense. So like originally it was coach Knight, he was coach Knight 2.0, and then he fell in love with what Dean was doing. So then he became like Dean Smith 2.0 and maybe Jimmy V and kind of Dean mixed into one. And then around 2011, he became coach cow. Like he was

mimicking the one and done era. So he's had so many different iterations of coach K. That's why when people talk about him, I think that you could hear a different version based on the experience, like the, the young, my cousins, right? My young cousins, they think of coach K as like, he's cool. He gets all the NBA players, you know what I mean? That's, that's a different version from like me when I grew up where it was like Lee Melchione and you know, Greg Paulus and all these guys, JJ Redick. I mean, that was what Duke basketball was. And it's flipped over in a chain so much. And I think that's the one thing that fascinates me about Kay is that he has been malleable throughout his career. Even though he's been a constant,

he's been changing how he approaches it the entire time. And this book kind of shows you that he's not an innovative guy, right? Like, I don't think, like, Dean Smith's an innovator, you know, in the game of basketball. I think Coach Kay was more of a guy that that I keep things the way that they are. I'm very to the point. I'm very meticulous. I have a game plan, but I'm not trying to push this forward.

I'm trying to preserve as much as I can. Yeah, he was happy to change except his hair color, which he somehow stayed pitch black. I think it's the tar in North Carolina. He just puts tar in his hair. With the night stuff. Um, I,

I get it from night side because when you had, like he has this guy that he put a lot of time in and it could just be like, he calls him one time and coach K forgets to call him back and night just flies off the handle. One of the things I never got about coach k and you and i bonded over this as we got to know each other was coach k in the two especially in the 2000s did this whole holier than now approach to college basketball yes like i would never do the one and done thing i would never dabble in

those dirty waters i'm about raising kids very Very Bob Knight. I'm raising kids. I'm raising graduates. And then something snapped. And all of a sudden he was like, one and done, here I come. And that's what he did the last decade, which the book goes into a little bit. In my opinion, not enough.

Yeah. Well, he also, I mean, I'll be honest with you. You know, you gave me the assignment to read this book. I would say that I took a page out of LeBron's book with this book. I was on page one and I was like,

I was becoming vomitous. I was like, I don't know how much I can read of this, but I kind of did what you did. I was finding the parts where I'd pop in and say, this is an interesting moment. This is an interesting wrinkle. I want to find this about Kay. But the fact that he didn't get interviewed for this book also, in my opinion, makes it feel a little bit removed

because it's all these people talking about the Wizard of Oz, but we've never been behind the curtain. You know what I mean? And I think what everybody really wants to know about Duke and Duke basketball and the allure of K is what's behind the curtain, you know? And if you go to Duke practice, Bill, he puts curtains up so you can't look behind him. So it's quite literally what is happening behind that curtain with Coach K. And I still feel like I don't have all those answers, which I want to have. Well, especially when did he have that blue chips, Nick Nolte moment where he's just like, I have to do this now.

It was Harrison Barnes. It was Harrison Barnes. Harrison Barnes was the number one recruit in the country. And Coach K, he was going to Skype. I think this, to me, is the mark of the digital era, the change. Harrison Barnes was supposed to Skype in to his new team. And Coach K's in his office. He's got Skype up.

He's ready. He's ready to go. And Harrison Skypes in to Roy Williams. And Roy Williams pops up on the screen. And as the myth goes, Coach K threw a chair. He was very, very tipped about Harrison doing that. And then I think that was the watershed moment where Coach K said, never again. You know what I mean?

If I can't get the Duke kids to come to Duke, I'm going to play the real game of college basketball, and the rest was history. Kyrie Irving, come on down. Right. 10 games of Kyrie. That's the thing. At that point, he's going to recruit anybody possible. The thing with him though, you think about like, uh, like a big part of the book was how he has these relationships with people and how he keeps them. And he's, he's watering the relationships like. Where you read it and you're like, you start feeling bad about yourself

and the relationships you have. Where you're like, oh, I hate those people who make all of us normal people look bad. He's just checking in. He's showing up at hospital beds, writing letters. And I think that's why it was probably hard for them to find enough people to do the book. But then you read the stuff like,

all right, who's going to be his successor? And then he wants John Shire, but Duke wants Tommy Amaker, who's this guy Coach K has allegedly championed. And he kind of sides toward Shire. And then Amaker finds out. He kind of shanked Tommy Amaker. I mean, let's be honest.

It felt like a shanking. Yeah, it felt like, you know, it was succession, right? I mean, Coach K is Logan Roy. I mean, at the end of the day, and I'm not sure that he's done yet, Bill. Honestly, losing that game in Cameron, that could not be his last game in Cameron.

I don't know what he's going to, he's going to figure out some way to coach one more ceremonial game in Cameron. So that's not the last game. Because if it's the last game, we have that forever. You know what I mean? As Carolina fans, we just continue.

Anytime Duke says anything about K, it's like, yeah, but that last game, that was something, right? You know what I mean? Well, then the overtime where we didn't even get to see the start of it. It was just, it couldn't have worked out better

if you don't like Duke. It was a Carolina win from the start. And I want to thank Kansas for that. You know, Kansas and Carolina, we've had, you know, quite a past, you know, Dean Smith comes from there. Roy Williams goes there and then leaves and goes to Carolina. But I really think we owed them one on that day. The basketball gods were like, we're going to go to overtime.

We're going to make K go to double box and poor ESPN. You know this. I mean, they were having, they were frantic. They didn't know what to do because K is going to, you know, I don't know what he's going to do. Whoever told K about the double box, I feel bad for that PA because they did not have a good day. So you think, yeah,

I mean, he must have been so mad. I thought it was risky to have the game right before that. Like, why not just have the hour-long pregame show before the Duke game so that you're covered for any sort of overtime scenario? But he must have been so mad. I was reading this stuff. I just don't get it. I'll be honest. I've been looking at Belichick in my life for 20 plus years. If the tickets for Belichick's final game were rivaling the Super Bowl, I really wouldn't care if I was there to watch some coach stand on the sidelines. Like, oh, it's our last time with Kay. It's the last time we get to see him hold a clipboard.

Like, what are you people doing? What are you doing? And to me, uh, I've been trying to find the analogy of that event and it feels very much like the Titanic, you know what I mean? Where it's like all of these elites are like, are like going and they're going to have this amazing time. You know what I mean? And nothing can go wrong. You know what I mean? And the hubris of coach K to not even factor in the idea that they could lose this game. Right. I mean, to, to agree to the programming to say, I'm going to do a pregame, I'm going to do a post game. Like all this is agreed upon. And you mentioned Belichick. I don't see a world and maybe I don't know Bill Belichick well enough, but I don't see any world in which he would want these bright lights on him. You know, like Bill Belichick would never want to

make it about him. That is the opposite of his ethos and what he's always put out. It's about the team. You know, every, everybody has their role. He's not going to make it about himself, but K is the perfect person to make it about himself. And he wanted it to be about himself. That was the best part. And then all the Duke fans now are coming at me and they're like, why do you keep talking about K? Why don't you talk about your own team? You talked about K.

That's why I'm talking about K. Yeah, you're paying $5,500 to go watch him sit on a bench for two hours. It was priceless. Listen, I know all the reasons you don't like Coach K. And I know some of the, I don't usually like in general,

I'm not saying this is rational. I'm not saying it's right. But the college coaches who stay for a long time. And at some point, I just feel like go to the pros. That's where all the best players are. Like that's like the Dean Smith era is the last era of the, I stayed in college my whole career. Coach K dallied with the pros.

That was another thing with him. There was a lot of dallying. A lot of rub my shoulders. Yeah, the Lakers. He loves that 0-4 Lakers. They thought about hiring. Mitch Kupchak called him to hire him, but he never mentions the fact

that Kupchak called Roy Williams first and offered him a job, and Roy said no. There was a Celtics piece, too, in the Boston Globe about one of the Celtics owners, how he was lobbying for him in 0-4 for Coach K to come. Then there was another time, I think in the early nineties where he was going to come to the Celtics. And so he would always like be courted. And this was the guy who was like, Oh, Duke, Duke. I love Duke. I love Duke so much. But

anytime somebody winked at him in a bar, like he was ready to, you know, go down the contract path with them. Yeah. them yeah and uh and had no problem leaking the story you know a lot of these things right you know this bill like if someone calls and interviews you if you want to keep it in-house and not have it get out to the public there that happens a lot you know someone checks in is this guy you know is he available but you leak this you wanted to be known that the lakers offered you the job because you wanted the perception whatever you want the clout from the idea that the lakers want to hire you so so would you would you have liked him more if he became let's just say he's the celtic coach in 1993 he leaves duke yeah would you have still held the duke thing against him and and

been able to work up as much consistent animosity or no? No, I don't think so. I think Coach K, separate of Duke, to me, I think he probably means really well. I did this five-star doc and had to interview Coach K. We were on a Zoom face-to-face. He was very nice to me. I forgot about that. How did you? So he obviously didn't Google you and the name coach k no he said he said

that he he had known of my work uh is what he said um so i think uh like he's kind of like the evil santa claus he has a list he's checking it twice and i'm definitely on the naughty list but he uh i i don't know i i think he's sadistic enough to enjoy what i do you know what i mean and the rivalry like i view it more of like, uh, at the end of the day, there's this respect for, we have this great rivalry, but I have no shame in calling out coach K for what he is in my viewpoint. But I also have the respect of he's an amazing coach. I pulled for him with team USA, obviously. I mean, it made me a little sick, uh, to do that, but I didn't really like it that much either. I got over it. I got over it.

So, I mean, I've had my moments where I gave Kay his due, right? But I'm not going to give him, you know, his flowers, as the kids would say. I'm not going to continue to do that in this farewell tour. And Carolina didn't need to do that, even though they keep complaining about them not doing that. But at the same time, that's such a Coach K move to do the interview with you, knowing you don't like him. It's like a weird power play by K.

It was very... Trying to flip it on you. And I kept waiting for him to say something that was going to... He did tell me to wrap it up. He was pretty stern at the end. He was like, okay, wrap it up. I got to go to the K Academy. And funny enough, remember that day the the k academy got shut down because there was like that virus that went around in the water fountain it was the day that i talked to him

that that happened that news story came out so oh he probably thought that i had something to do with it or uh you know how do we know you didn't i don't know so you survived the coach k farewell tour but we are going into the ACC tournament in March Madness now. And you have to... Endure. Have to do more long shots of Coach K in the sidelines, more shots of his family in the stands.

We just got to keep going. It's actually going to probably make me not watch the ACC tournament. I'm just, I'm kind of out. Or if I watch it, it'll be on mute. I don't want to hear the announcers. I don't either. And, you know, every single other game,

they throw the graphics up of Coach K. So even if you were watching, let's say you're watching the Big East Tournament, they're still going to show you graphics of Coach K or memories from Coach K. I just did a tour, Bill, at Madison Square Garden, and they have 366 moments of every single day, including the leap year, of like, this happened at MSG.

It's like Buffalo Bill did his Wild West show in 1887 on what, you know, March 3rd, coach K has two of the 366 moments in MSG. What exactly? What were the moments? He won his 903rd game at MSG. So most all time, most wins all time for a college coach. And then it was just, okay, that's cool. And then the second one was he won his 1000th game there. Uh, you know, so that was one K pick a moment. You got to pick between those two. That's what I said. You got to pick a moment. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Uh, do we have to worry about Duke winning the title this year or no? Yes, absolutely. I think, uh, I really hope Kentucky. I think Kentucky is the team to do it. I really do. If there's any tea, I'm pulling for obviously someone to stop Duke. Duke's going to get to the elite eight no matter what. I don't see a world where they're not in the elite eight. And then from there, it's just fingers crossed and praying because as you know, Coach K wants to be better than John Wooden. And if he wins a title in his last year, that's exactly what John Wooden did, you know, in 1975. So coach K can leave on top, just like John Wooden.

That's his plan. I can promise you. I'm not going to root for that. The Kentucky thing though, like that's, that would involve coach Kyle Perry. Yeah. Over and over again,

calling a good game in the last four minutes, which I know, which is, I just watched him. I watched him like two weekends ago where they fell apart in the last two minutes. Yeah. And he was like maroon on the sidelines. I'm like, oh, nothing changes in college basketball. It all stays the same. Yeah. I mean, that's my fear. Kentucky's the team that I think can do it This I'm Fando Auburn at 14 to one. You feel like they got the big guy. They got your bar.

Yeah. The guard who is kind of a little too involved is the one that worries me with them. Yeah. They have a problem. And the problem is that the two guards on the team, Katie Johnson and a window green who comes in and he comes off the bench, but he's Jasper is their starting point guard. But window green kind of takes over and, you know, whatever their crunch time lineup is. Those two guards somehow have convinced themselves that they are the clutch guy.

Like it's tough. But this is the issue with college basketball. It's always these guards who are never going to, you know, have like 15 year NBA careers who all of a sudden the last 90 seconds are the ones deciding the games. Yeah. And Jabari, I mean, if we're in the NBA, as you know, I mean, Jabari is going to probably bring the ball up at the end of the game, right? Just so he has the ball in his hands. There's no denial there. And that's what you hope Bruce Pearl does, but he has not changed that once they have not figured that out in all these tight games. So that's what worries me about Auburn. They have the best front court in the country. Walker Kessler and Jabari Smith. Those are two lottery picks, I think.

But the guards might not be good enough, unfortunately. That's what scares me. Any long shots for you? Any like 30-1ers? You were good at those in the past. Like a UCLA 30-1, something like that? I mean, UCLA at 30-1 is good value. I really like that team.

And there's teams that are bored with the regular season, in my opinion, like Illinois. Illinois is bored with the regular season. I don't know what their odds are, but I like the idea of that team in the tournament. Illinois, 50-1 on Fandor. Yeah, so I like that. I like Illinois. There's some

SEC teams, like in Arkansas, you could talk me into, but a lot of these sec, sec teams, they're really good at home and really bad on the road. And obviously we're not playing these games at home. So it's hard to really value them or expect to see them play at that level, you know, in a neutral site.

Well, you know me, I throw myself into March madness. I overreact to the top five lottery picks for better or worse. And I root against Duke. And this is the last year. I don't know if I'm going to be able to root against like John Shire. What do I care?

I don't really have a history of John Shire. That's, that's kind of how I feel about it. I mean, someone was saying that the other day, do you feel sad? And there is a little bit of a bittersweet part to it because to hate like this,

I mean, there's no other, there's no other hate like this. I mean, what are you going to do? hate like this. I mean, it's good. And what are you going to do? I know. It's like, it's good to have that enemy of the, you know,

that kind of exists out there. And Shire's not that guy. Shire's always been very nice to me. So I, I don't know. I got, I got to figure it out. I'm going to have to reevaluate myself a little bit, Bill. I'm going to have to become

more objective, you know, become like an actual journalist, maybe. We'll see what happens. I mean, you're in your late 20s now. It might be time. Might be time to mature out of this. But I'll tell you this. I went to like four Laker games

the last couple of weeks and sitting there watching them lose to the Clippers by 40, I was so delighted and out of my mind. It's like rooting against a coach. The coaches eventually retire. The uniforms never go away.

Of course. So you'll still have the Duke piece of it. Before we go, who do you have won? Holmgren or Jabari or Palo? We were texting about Jabari a couple months ago. Yeah, you went on him early. Yeah. If I were, let's say I'm Troy Weaver with the Pistons,

I'm taking Jabari Smith, you know, instead of Chad Holmgren, just thinking about Detroit, what the city represents, the team, the makeup, all that sort of stuff. And I think Jabari would be one of the best number two options, right? If you go and send him with Cade, he'd be an amazing fit there. So if I'm the number one pick and I'm the Pistons, I take Jabari Smith. But if I'm any other team, I take Chad Holmgren. I really do. I think he's so pick and I'm the Pistons, I take Jabari Smith. But if I'm any other team, I take Chet Holmgren. I really do. I think he's so interesting.

I think he obviously, you know, we joke about how everyone wants a two-way player. But the guy makes so much of a difference just with the shot selection around the rim. And he's so sneaky athletic. And he's got a good second jump. And I mean, he's a lot longer and is more of a specimen that you might even realize until you see him in real life. So I think Chet's going to wow some people and I think he'll end up going number one. If I read my head,

Mike Schmitz wrote about him with Gavoni for ESPN this week. And they were talking about like the rap that he's too skinny. And they listed some other players who were skinny, who filled out a little, I mean, the numbers sometimes you just, when somebody's putting up numbers like that in college, sometimes you just have to go,

all right, this translates at least somewhat. He's already a 40% three-point shooter. He's already blocking four blocks a game and he's a double-double and he's tough. Like the stuff I've seen, he's not like Sean Bradley, where Sean Bradley, everyone was trying to dunk on him. Like from the moment he got in the NBA,

everybody was like, oh my God, this guy, I'm dunking on him. Like where do you go bare now? Yeah. Yeah, like where do you go bare now? Holmgren's got a little edge to him. I just, I've never seen somebody with that body play center and succeed before.

So maybe he'll be the first, but I need to get over that hump mentally. I think Porzingis is the one that scares you. I mean, because your biggest concern is that there's a guy who could probably score, you know, 25,000 plus points in the NBA and Jabari Smith if he's in the right situation, you know, and to pass up on that guy,

kind of like what Kevin Durant was, to pass up on that guy, and then you end up getting Chet who can't play, you learn he can't play the five, and now you have like a specialist that you drafted number one stretch five and then you got like lower body stuff and he hurts yeah and

yeah whereas Jabari is just like worst case scenario he's a better Rashard Lewis 100% and and I think he's such a good kid like I really like Jabari everything I've seen from I think he has such an understanding his dad played in the NBA I think he knows how to fit into a culture. If you went to the Magic,

I love that young core of the Magic. Not to say that they win a lot of games, but I just like how they play. I think they're going to eventually figure it out. If you plug him in there, or Detroit, like I said earlier, I just feel like he would be a great fit with those young guys,

and he would buy in. The good thing about all three of those guys, they're super competitive, which is like the number one thing I look for as I get older and older. I'm just like, do you look competitive as I'm watching you on CBS on a Saturday? Do you look like you give a shit?

Yeah. And all three of those guys do. All right, Tate, we got to go. Good luck. Good luck at the Big East this week. Good luck rooting against Duke. Good to see you as always. I'm glad you're doing well. I know this was a highlight for Nephew Kyle. And it was good to have against Duke. Good to see you as always. I'm glad you're doing well. I know this was a highlight

for Nephew Kyle. It was good to have you on. Good to see you. Great to see you too. Thanks, Bill. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kevin and to Van and to Tate. Thanks to Kyle Creighton as always for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey.

Don't forget, new Rewatchables went up on Monday. Don't forget to check out the Prestige TV podcast as well. And I'll be back on this feed on Thursday. See you then. I don't have feelings within On the wayside I'm a person never on the scene I don't have feelings within