The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Blake Snell WTF Game, Mookie’s Second Title, and NBA Draft Trades With CC Sabathia and Kevin O’Connor

Episode Date: October 28, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by CC Sabathia to talk about the Dodgers winning the World Series. They discuss Kevin Cash's controversial decision to pull Blake Snell, the electric energy Mookie Betts brought to the Dodgers, Kershaw finally getting to relax, the success of the shortened MLB playoff schedule, and more (2:00). Then Bill talks with Kevin O'Connor about the upcoming NBA draft, the short offseason, teams that may be inclined to trade up, the lack of consensus for the top prospects, Kevin's mock draft on TheRinger.com, and more (52:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It is 848 Pacific time, West Coast, 1148 East time. We're doing this live on the Twitter, but it's going to run on my podcast after. CeCe Sabathia is here. The Dodgers just won the World Series, and somehow I don't even feel like it's the lead story. This was a different version of the Grady Little leaving Pedro in for too long.

Now, 17 years later, we have Kevin Cash pulling Blake Snell too soon i i'm gonna ask you since you've pitched in world series you've won rings you're blake snell you're you're dealing you're at 71 pitches nobody's really touchy you give up one single and the guy's taking you out what would your reaction have been when he comes out i would the same as his but the thing is is like don't even let me run out there for the sixth if you're going to take me out after a single. You know what I'm saying? Just let Nick Anderson if you want to get Anderson in the game, just let

him start the inning. Don't put him in the game with a runner on and you got Mookie up there and it just kind of fucked everything up. But, I mean, it was a horrible move. He took him out 71 pitches. Guy's on the side. He's dealing. He's got nine strikeouts, whatever. I mean, he was strikeouts.

He had, he was pitching well, but the Rays would have had to score more than one run to win this game anyway. So by them scoring run, run, it didn't make a difference what, what move he made in the sixth inning taking snail out because they wouldn't, they weren't gonna win this game. One of nothing anyway.

Yeah. And they really almost lost the momentum that second, third, fourth innings. When the Dodgers bullpen just shuts them down. They get to the starter. It really seems like they're going to go on a run. They never do. But I don't know.

I think baseball is a particularly unusual sport in that a moment like this can shift momentum in ways that just as a fan when I'm watching, you just know something's wrong, something's off. And I don't know, when you're on the field, can you feel that? Or is that a fan thing? Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, because when you're on the field, when you're in the dugout, I mean, for me, like watching as a starter, I mean, you can feel that.

I mean, yeah, you know, like we know that this guy's our best option. And the thing is, is like, if you think that that's such a big situation, you're going to take him out at this point. Don't bring in the middle reliever that's been getting fucking killed. Bring in your guy. If this is your spot and you're taking him out, then bring in the guy. Like whoever that is at the back end of that bullpen needs to be in in that spot right there to shut it down.

If that's how you feel, if this is like one of those big momentum shifting innings or that single was going to get the Dodgers started. I mean, the top of the order, I think, was like 0 for 8. 0 for 6. 6 or 7 Ks. I mean, it was so like, what are we doing? I mean, yeah, it's just so many different things that I'm like, just, I mean, bring in your closer or Fairbanks at that point. You know, it just didn't make sense.

And then if you're in the Dodgers dugout, let's say you're sitting in there, you're not pitching that day, and you're in the dugout, and they do that. How does the vibe change in the dugout? Because you've done nothing the whole game. Yeah, you've done nothing. You know this guy's in control. And you know he's capable of, you know, kind of shutting you down all night. I mean, this is not like, you know, some rookie.

This is Blake Snell. This guy's got a Cy Young in his trophy case. You know what I'm saying? So when he's dealing like that, you start feeling bad. And then as soon as they make a mistake and take him out and then Mookie hits a double, it's over. You might as well give us the trophy. You know what I'm saying?

That's how I would have felt if I was in the Dodgers dugout. So to recap, we're saying that when a guy becomes the first guy in the 21st century to have two 9K starts where he only gives up two hits, and you take that guy out for a guy who's given up a run in six consecutive appearances, maybe don't do that. Maybe don't do that. That was one of my lessons from this. Maybe don't do that.

But like I said, they wouldn't go win this game one to nothing anyway. So, you know, we can sit here and kill Kevin Cash all we want. No, let's kill some more. They need to score more runs. You know what I'm saying? Here's the thing. They just didn't hit enough. We were talking about this before about because this is happening in football, too.

And this is a recurring theme now where the math and the advanced metrics and people grasping it, but then not leaving out like situations that are kind of outliers with the math. Right. I think this is one thing Robert's got really good at. I don't think he would have pitched your Reyes, you know, for the final three innings of these games in 2017, 18, he would have been like, Oh, I got to bring in Kenley. And so that's, this is when the closer comes in. And now he's like, you know what? It's not just about the math. This guy's dealing. They're not going to hit him.

I'm not taking them out. And that's, we see the same thing in football where it's like, Oh, the math says I should go for two here. And it's like, maybe not, you know,

if you, if you don't get it, the deep, their defense can be fired up. Now they're still within seven. Like maybe, maybe the math is wrong in this case. And I just feel like we're prisoners of the math

sometimes. Definitely prisoners of the math and like there's just no thought process. It's just like, this is what the numbers say. So, okay, we're going to make this move.

And now, you know, fortunately, like Dave Roberts could have lost his job going by the math. But when you go by the math, you're basically going by what the front office

is telling you. So they're not going to fire you. You know what I'm saying? Sure. So he got a chance to like actually manage his way through these games with the numbers. And we see how it turned out for him instead of just kind of trying to forecast and not really watching. You got to watch the game.

It's good to have a plan of how you want your bullpen to kind of lay out, but you got to watch the game and, and, and, you know, let that dictate the way you bring these guys out of bullpen. So they don't have to be, each one has to be perfect well i almost wonder if the math in some ways is a little bit of a cop-out for the manager right because if it doesn't work he's

like hey you guys you told me to use the math the best way to do this and it's almost like you're gonna get out of jail free card over there i don't even know if it's for the manager or just for the organization period because everybody's in you know what i'm saying so it's for the manager or just for the organization, period. Because everybody's in, you know what I'm saying? So it's a collective, you know, most of the time, especially with the Rays, I think it's like collective decisions and the Dodgers for sure. Listen, I don't want to sound like the old guy because I really did enjoy the last two rounds.

And in general, we could talk about bubble playoff baseball. I had a good time. I really liked it. And I thought the last two rounds were compelling, especially a weekend ago where you had all those game sixes, game sevens. All that stuff was great. The thing that I really miss as a fan is watching a starting pitcher put his team on his back, you know,

something you have some experience with. And these moments where it's like, all right, this is different. This is October. Everything is different. Every out's harder, every strikes harder. And when you watch like what snow was doing tonight, and if he could have gone into the eighth or even the ninth, that's what you need to flip a series. When you're down three, two, you need this superhuman performance from your best pitcher, which he was giving them. And that was so frustrating about this. And in the both starts where he throws so many balls, normally he throws so many balls,

his pitch count was so low in both starts. You know what I'm saying? Like, he was set up to go deep in both of those games. Like, and on the flip side of that, I mean, we see what actually wins is the starting pitching. And the Dodgers got those two huge starts out of Kershaw, and he may end up being the World Series MVP, and they finally get their title because they don't really go by the numbers

and they let their starters actually pitch them into these playoff games because, you know, analytics makes sense for the 162. And, you know, starting to open and all that stuff, we all know that that makes sense. When you get into the playoffs, you need starting pitching. I mean, you look at the Nats last year. You know, they had three really good starters. They had two really, they had two great starters,

and they got, you know, some great work by Anibal Sanchez. So you have to have the starting pitching or else you're not going to win the World Series. Well, it's funny. Football, basketball, and baseball all battling the same problem to some degree. In basketball, you have a team like the Bucs where they have this system.

They play Giannis 31 minutes a game. They're conservative. And they have this regular season strategy that really works, which I think is very similar to the Rays. But then you get to the playoffs. It's like, guess what? It's the playoffs. Giannis has you get to the playoffs. It's like, guess what? It's play. It's the playoffs.

Giannis has to go 40, 42. You look at how the Lakers were riding Davis and LeBron and some of their big games. It's, it's just different. It's a different burden. Um, you want to get your best guys as much out there as you possibly can without running them in the ground. But in baseball, it's flipped because, you know, I, I should have a 2003 ring, even though I'm not on the team when Grady left Pedro in too long. So the flip side was this old school mentality of, oh, you gotta, it's Jack Morris through nine innings, game seven world series. Yeah. It's your ace. That's what he does. And I'm not saying that's right either, but somewhere in the middle is probably where we should be with logic. I think

definitely somewhere in the middle, but if you got a guy that's hot, then you just, you ride them. You know what I'm saying? Um, I mean, you look at Jimmy Butler, like look what he did to get that team to the finals. He was, he was playing every minute. So sometimes it takes, it takes that, you know, it takes a guy that has to go on three days rest or like glass now going on two days rest to, you know, to get your team to the next round. So, yeah, I mean, to win a title, it's got to be some sacrifice. One guy's got to step. I mean, some guys got to step up and do some things that they're not normally comfortably doing. And, you know, whether that's in basketball playing 48 minutes or in baseball, you know, riding your starter as long as you can. And, you know, this is our guy.

I mean, that's what you have to do to get that parade. If I told you 71 pitches for Snell or 131 pitches for Snell. 131. That's how I feel. But I know he's not, I know he's younger guy. It's a different generation. I know he's a younger guy. It's a different generation. Your generation was more used to having to do that. No, but this is the thing.

I felt like when I was younger, they kind of gave me a pitch count. I was always on a pitch count until I wasn't. You know what I'm saying? I was on a pitch count. I feel like they kept me on a pitch count so they can throw me 130 or 140 in the playoffs if they needed to.

You know what I'm saying? That's why you keep his innings down during the regular season I feel like they kept me on the pitch count so they can throw me 130 or 40 in the playoffs if they needed to. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's why you keep his innings down during the regular season so he can ride his ass in October. Like, what are we doing? This guy, I don't know, just his talent level. I mean, he's a big guy. He can handle the load. And for him not to be able to pitch past the sixth inning in so many games, you know, throughout the regular season and the postseason, it just makes no sense to me.

Yeah, my big criticism just for the last couple years of the playoffs is just the whole, you know, the lack of a feel for pitching game to game. And just we had these games where like seven guys are in, you know, every three batters. Here comes the next guy and the next guy. And I just don't like it as much. But again, I'm old. Not to complain. We got some breaking news as we were doing this, that Justin Turner tested positive for the coronavirus.

And that's why he left the game. So that was a report. I think he left the game like the fifth or sixth inning. He flew out deep, deep, deep, deep to left field. Maybe he left the game. Off Anderson. Remember he flew out deep he flew out deep to left field maybe he left the game off Anderson remember he flew out really yeah

so sometime in the last three innings he left the game so I don't know if that was when they got a test back or whatever but he was in the dugout sitting with all those guys

yeah he's been in the bubble they've been around like yeah so I don't know what happens with that story

this is definitely the weirdest World Series. I was about to say, what's the point of taking him off the field at that point? Right, because he's already been out there. And how do you find out during the game? In the sixth inning. Like, what are we doing? Yeah, so that was weird.

Wow. Some other subplots. When we get more information, we'll talk about that. Right now, it's 9 o'clock PT. Some other subplots. When we get more information, we'll talk about that. Right now, it's 9 o'clock PT. Some other subplots. Kershaw. You know, it's unfair to say if somebody doesn't win a ring that we have to look at their career in a different way.

At the same time, his postseason troubles had become part of the first sentence of his obituary in some ways. And now that's gone. It's like when John Elway won in 97. It's like, that's gone. We never talk about that again. Yeah, I don't think, you know, I don't think we look at Barry Bonds in that way.

I don't think we'll look at Mike Trout in that way if he never makes it to, you know, makes it to the playoffs and plays in the World Series. I think that the reason why everybody's looking at Kershaw in that way is because he has so many World Series starts. Yeah. So many play Series starts. Yeah. So many playoff appearances, so many division titles.

I mean, you know, they won the division so many years in a row, but their rival up the freeway had three World Series. You know what I'm saying? So I just think it was different in his case because he needed the ring because of how many appearances he made in the playoffs. And he could always play the 2017 Astros card too. He could definitely play that.

Remember that year we played the team that cheated? That's us on there. But, you know, look, I never met the guy. Everybody says he's a great guy. He seems so genuinely happy at the end. You know, not that everybody's going to be happy when we win the World Series, but certain people you can just see the relief literally leave their body. I don't know. Was anybody like that in the Yankees in 09? Hmm. Oh, I mean, I feel like A-Rod, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good call. And then even like, you know, I'm really close to David Price, but even watching him win the World Series, like he's a different guy now, you know? So really? Yeah. I mean, he had the same type of thing where he wasn't pitching good in the playoffs and you know had a couple opportunities and you know then he pitches great down the stretch and he's the reason why pretty much why they win you know i'm saying like yeah he held it down so yeah i mean it was just like a you know a relief you know it's a totally different person it's so funny because when price broke on in the scene in the oa playoffs and he destroyed the red sox in game seven and seemed to be cementing this reputation as this playoff guy then it goes out the window and then in 2018 all the red sox fans had given up on them i i think i was the only one i was even tweeting i was like i'm not giving up on this guy

but in the playoffs he really came through and you're right. And then that's it. It's just the narrative ends. Do you ever think what would happen to you if you don't win in 09? Like, how you would have, you know, some night in your mid-40s, hanging out on a Friday night on a deck thinking about it? Oh, I would have thought about it. I think I would have thought about it every day, for sure. Really?

Yeah, that was the only reason I played, though. I never played for numbers and none of that shit. I just played to win a World Series. So that was my ultimate goal. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was, that was it. Like, that was literally the reason I was playing, stepping on the field every time.

So, yeah, I mean, that was a huge, huge relief for me, too. I mean, it was, you know, I was nine years in, you know, searching for that title. And, you know, I was nine years in, you know, searching for that title and, you know, it was so close in 07 and didn't pitch well, you know what I'm saying? So, um, yeah, I needed that in 09 too, for sure. Um, it looks like, I think that's Corey Seager, right? I can never tell him that. Yeah. I think he won the, uh, the, yeah, the MVP. So he was the NLCS MVP and the World Series MVP.

I mean, he was terrifying those last two rounds. He was absolutely terrifying. The thing about him, though, he's great. He's just never healthy. You know what I'm saying? He's unbelievable. The kids hit me. He's one of the best shortstops in the league. We just never talk about him because he's literally always hurt.

But, I mean, he can hit. He fields great. He's a big shortstop. He had 402 homers, 5 RBI, and was petrifying every single time. So when you won in 2009, what guy in the Yankees handled it the most inappropriately? Shit, I don't even know. I think we all handle it inappropriately. That first night you win, man.

I can't even remember. Were you in New York or were you in Philly when you won? We were in New York. We came back and won game six in New York. Oh, wow. That whole week was just like a blur. It was just so many different nights at the 40-40 club. We was at the Garden one night night it was the night of the parade we had a party the night we won we went to one oak it was uh it was fun it was a good it was

i'm glad we were in new york it was fun to be here you know a little bit different for the dodgers probably in the in the bubble world series i can't imagine especially with this turner news i don't even know how they process how they celebrate How they celebrate now, I don't know. But, yeah, in general, though, I think thumbs up for the bubble playoffs. What would you have changed? Nothing. You thought too many teams, I thought. That was the one thing.

Oh, just the 16 teams. Yeah, I mean, that's the only thing. But as far as a fan, I love the wild card round. It was so much fun watching those three game series i just don't think that you can penalize the the division winners next year by having them sit out three or four days while they play these games so i don't know how they figure that out but no i mean i i mean i really enjoyed the playoffs the wild card was great um you know watching down down the stretch, NLDS,

ALCS, all that stuff. It was fun to watch. You know what I liked? I think the right two teams were in the World Series. For sure. And I think the right team won. I think this is a rare case of everything that should have happened probably happened, which I don't think always happens with baseball.

Yeah, no. This is definitely the case where everybody was saying at the beginning of the season, it could be the Yankees and the Dod baseball. Yeah, no, this is definitely the case where, like, everybody was saying at the beginning of the season, it could be the Yankees and the Dodgers. But for me, I was saying it could be the Rays because I know how good they are. And they end up winning that division, winning 8 out of 10, putting the Yankees out of the playoffs. So, yeah, I mean, that was right along the lines

of how I thought the season was going to go. And, you know, like you said, you know, never in baseball does the right team usually win. And, you know, it seems like the Dodgers were poised. And, I mean, it's just not surprising. It'd be not surprising if the Yankees win in the next couple of years. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's just right there

and just can't get over the hump. And, you know, this year the Dodgers did. And if you're the Rays, you're looking at this and you're going Nick Anderson was our best pitcher all season and he just stunk when it mattered the most for whether it was

overuse or whether the first 60 games were a little fluky who knows you also had Lau, Adamas couldn't hit, neither of those guys really stepped up but I and then Glass now in his two starts wasn't couldn't hit. Neither of those guys really stepped up. And then Glasnow in his two starts wasn't great either. I just didn't think they played

that well. They didn't. And Lau and Adamas definitely hurt him for sure. I thought Glasnow would have been really good in his second start. He was throwing the ball better. But Mookie, I really feel like that first at-bat, Mookie having an 8 or 9 pitch at-bat, then hitting the double,

I think it just sent him on a spiral again where he wanted to nibble because that first game he was just trying to nibble, spiking curveballs, walking so many guys. And I think he was coming out the second game to be aggressive. Mookie puts a great at-bat on him and then just fucked his whole game plan up. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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Pennzoil. Long may we drive. Available at your local Canadian tire. Enrollment required. Keep your receipts. Other conditions apply. See Pennzoil.ca slash warranty for full details. All right, let's do it. Let's just fucking do it. I waited how many minutes? 19? Mookie. So I came on your podcast before the season even started. And then I've had to spend the last few months with all the Dodger fans. I know my life repeatedly telling me how great he is. And then he just had so many different, awesome Mookie moments. I didn't even feel like he wasn't

scorching hot at any point, but has this ability to just make different things happen over the course of a game and a series. And then you see tonight, like he's probably one of three dudes who scores from third on a sharp ground or first base when the guy's holding body scores. Anyway, it doesn't matter. He gets the insurance home run, which was a Mookie specialty, uh,

plays with so much joy and energy. And I, I really do think like if you're that Dodgers team, that's just getting kicked in the nuts all decade. And you bring fresh blood in a guy who's won a guy who is better at his position than anyone else in the league except for Trout and there's just this inner confidence that you get when there's somebody like that in your team who's just unshakable what am I missing you hit it right on the head I mean and when we

talked about this you know we talked about this, you know, we talked about the Dodgers and, you know, me and you texting back and forth and them having trouble, you know, in the playoffs and getting over the hump. And I was like, bro, they got Mookie. Like Mookie's, Mookie's a winner. He did it in Boston. And like you said, you know, second to Trout, Sky's best player in the league, man. And I said that earlier this week. But Boogie's the face of baseball, whether you like it or not. You know what I'm saying? This guy needs every fucking commercial.

I mean, he made the jumping catch he made the other day. Like, this guy's unbelievable, man. So, I mean, people can, you know, they were all in my comments killing me about the comment I made about him. But for me, he's the best in the game. What was your comment? I said he's the best in the game. I said he's the best player in the game because he's the face of the game now.

Like, I mean, we all know Mike Trout has the talent, but I don't think that he wants to be the dynamic, you know, off the field, charismatic player that Mookie is, you know, guy that Mookie is off the field. And I think he's the perfect guy to take us in the next chapter, him and Aaron judge. So yeah, best player in the game, period. Mike Trout's the perfect guy for, for the people who just follow baseball by using math.

The math is awesome for him. And it's like, he was the MVP again. I was like, wait a second. I thought they were 75 and 97. He's the MVP. No, no, he's the best again. I was like, wait a second. I thought they were 75 and 97. He's the MVP every year. Yeah, it's good. No, no, he's the best guy. And then he has a chance to get out of there, this Anaheim situation where every year they stink or they're disappointing, they spend

their money the wrong ways, and he's like, double down. Another 12 years, sign me up. Like, I don't know. I just, if you gave me the choice, I've got to follow Mookie for so many years. You got to see him in the playoffs. I would just, how is he not the best guy in the league?

That's what I'm saying. I'm with you. I don't understand what people aren't seeing in this guy. He's got two titles now and two of the biggest markets in the game. I mean, you know, breaking a drought since 1988 with the Dodgers. And, you know, anytime you win in Boston, it's a big deal. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know what people want, man.

And he always shows up. He shows up on every stage. Like you said, he wasn't scorching hot, but he gets the double when you need it down the line. He gets the insurance run. He's going to fucking make every play and beyond in the outfield. He runs the bases like no other. I just don't know what else you want in a baseball player. Well, and I think

he's a guy baseball desperately needs right now for all the reasons you've discussed on your podcast. The fact that he's kind of the most fun baseball player, for lack of a better word, like just personality wise. And the joy that he plays with reminds me of,

you know, hearing like my dad talk about what it was like to watch Willie Mays way back when, just like how much it was fun, how much fun it was just to watch him play center field and just, just bat four times a game. You know, there,

some guys just have a certain charisma to them. I feel like Pedro was like that. And I think he's the guy like that now. And if you're baseball and your biggest problem is the inability to basically create real star power compared to the NBA, where every year the NBA has three, four new guys come in the league and they're immediately as famous as Mike Trout. You know, Zion plays 25 games and he's as famous as Mike Trout. And Mookie's, I think, baseball's best chance, especially being in the Los Angeles market

and, you know, what a smart guy he is and how thoughtful he is about everything. And they should be using him as an asset. I think so. You know what the other leagues do really, really well is they use their sponsors, the big, you know, companies that sponsor their league. They use their players in their commercials. So you have, you know, now you have the State Farm commercials where you have, you know, you got Dame Lillard and you got CP3.

I just saw some other young point guard that just joined them in that stuff. But like they do a good job of making these guys like household names by using their sponsors in the commercials. I don't think MLB does a good job of that. Like I was watching, you know, NFL game the other day and I love Larry Fitzgerald, Hall of Fame player. But he's got a commercial on, you know what I'm saying, on national TV. Like how does Kristen Yellich not have a commercial or like some of these guys like that we can showcase them on our league that we use our sponsors to put them put these guys in these national commercials well think about some of the commercials right you had state farm chris paul and then james harden was in there a little

bit but mostly chris paul think about like just what that state farm thing has done for chris paul to make him seem like a bigger star all the stuff lebrBron's done. Joel Embiid and Hulu. You go on and on. But when we watch Aaron Rodgers, the quarterback's always in there. Now Mahomes is in there. It was Pat Mahomes. That's who it was.

It was Mahomes. Yeah, it was Mahomes. Yeah, and the commercials really... J.J. Watt, these commercials really give these guys life and make them seem larger than the sport. And baseball has really not been able to cross that line in the last 10 years.

I think Ortiz was probably the last guy who felt big like that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that had like the commercials and the national spots. And was like a character. He was a character. Big Papi's a character, for sure.

I mean, he's a great guy, but he's, you know, he, I mean, he's, you know, he's Big Papi. So yeah, he's got that, he's got that character for sure. Well, they have a whole offseason to figure out. When do you think baseball comes back? I mean, I think if they can agree on what the money's going to look like,

which I think is going to take a long, long time, just like it did this time. I would love to see them come back in the spring, but they got to get working on that right now. If they want to try to figure out what it's going to look like with no fans in the spring, but I just don't, they got to get working on that right now. You know, if they, if they want to try to figure out, you know, what it's going to look like with no fans in the stands, are they going to try to bubble it? Um, I mean, you know, they got a lot to sort through, but, um, I would love to see them start on time.

I don't know why they couldn't start on time because they're the only, uh, league that's like right on schedule. You know, we started, you you know we ended our normal schedule so you could easily start back in february and be fine did you think they learned anything from these bubble from the whole bubble experience that they can actually use for the regular season when things get more normal like the seven inning double headers stuff like that i don't think that i don't think they'll keep the 17 double headers but i do hope they keep the seven-inning doubleheaders, but I do hope they keep putting a runner on second base after like the 11th, 10th, or 11th inning. Okay. Just to save some of these bullpens,

save some of these ups and downs that you have to do when you're getting some of these long games. So I would love to see them schedule seven-inning doubleheaders and guys play Sunday and then get Monday off. You know what I'm saying? Or have Monday and Thursday off. You play a doubleheader on Sunday. But I just don't see them keeping my seven games. That's harder on the players. I think guys would love to play seven game doubleheaders. Seven game doubleheaders.

But I don't think the league would go for that. They're going to want them to play nine. I vote for the over-manager of the year award, I think is something they should add. This year, nominees are. No,

because that was just one move. Like you would have to think of somebody else. You can't give Kevin cash to overmanager here. Cause he, he would, he made it to the world series with that payroll. So it would have to be very fair. It would have to be somebody else.

That's what he should say in the press conference. So they're like, Kevin, what happened with that Blake still thing? He's like, look, fuck you. Did you see our payroll? I'm allowed a mistake.

Do you know how much pressure I'm under? Hey, most tortured baseball franchise combo. So the Dodgers, who had one since the Gibby Homer, and had probably had more stomach punches at least over the last 12 years than anybody. I always thought it was neck and neck with them and the Mets fans who hadn't won since 86, where you have, you could be a 40-year-old Mets fan now,

born in 1980, and have no recollection of really anything good, vague memory of 86 maybe, and that's it. So just because they have so many fans, I always felt like it was Mets, Dodgers. Some other people would say Padres are in there, Rangers. The Indians, although I feel like when LeBron won the title, the Indians almost got taken off the hook by LeBron.

Nah, the Indians still in there. I say we. They've blown some big-ass leads. You know what I'm saying? Oh, they sure have. They've blown some leads. So who's your most tortured? Do saying? Oh, they sure have. They've blown some leads. So who's your most tortured? Do you have Indians or do you have the Mets?

Who do you have? Mets only 33 years. You know, I would say the Braves, too. Right, because they have the 95 title, but it's kind of like the asterisk on it. They have so many division titles. So many division titles. So many playoff appearances.

So I would have to go Cleveland number one and then I would go Atlanta number two and then the Mets. Wow. So the case for the Padres, who I don't think have a shitload of fans, but they've also never won the World

Series. Yeah, but the Padres, like, it's San Diego, so people just happy. They just want to go to the game and flip-flops and shit, see a couple home runs. I mean, I honestly think they're on the rise, though. With Tatis, and you got Manny for a couple more years, you got Hosmer. They got some

good pitching, you know, on the team and on the way. So I just feel like people in San Diego are always optimistic. So they don't, they're not really that pressed about winning the championship. You know what I'm saying? Here's the case for them being tortured. I found this story, and I don't remember where I saw it, but it was about the, when they played the Yankees in the World Series.

98. And there's some famous umpire call when it should have been a called third strike. And then Tito hits the grand slam. It was a strike. Grand slam. Yeah. And so they call it, I forget the umpire's name,

but all the Padres fans call it the umpire's name game. And I was like, well, that's good. If you have a game that you can go to, you're pretty tortured. They got swept though. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not like that would have made a fucking

difference. Tito strikes out right there, base is loaded, no matter. I mean, they still lose four straight. Like, it don't make a difference. And then they had 84 against the Tigers. And that's really it. But your point about them being in San Diego, at least they're in San Diego, whereas you're in Cleveland.

There's some cold, hard winners. That's what I'm saying. Like, you're in San Diego, you can just're in San Diego, whereas you're in Cleveland. There's some cold, hard winters. That's what I'm saying. You're in San Diego, you can just go outside, go to the beach, take a walk, do whatever you need to do, go play some golf. In Cleveland, man, you got to sit and let that shit fucking brew and stew. I'm sure 2016 was rough, man. Losing to the

Cubs and being up 3-0-1. Oh, man. I mean... Well, then you have the Rangers, too, who've had some bad ones. That Ron Washington year was brutal. Back-to-back World Series losses, right? Yeah. Yeah. So...

I still say the Braves because the Braves... Like, the Braves expect to win. You know what I'm saying? Like, they put their team together to win the AL East. They put their team together. They're always looking towards the World Series and they got all these division titles. So, I mean, they have to be right

up there too. That shit's got to be frustrating. Like I don't want my team going to the playoffs and losing every year in the ALDS or in the wild card game. Like that shit's got to be frustrating too. Well, Atlanta's, they also have just everything going on in Atlanta sports, which has been, the totality of it is pretty bad.

Their one revenge is anytime Smoltz announces the Yankees playoff game and is openly rooting for the other team, that the Braves fans, I think, enjoy that. He was openly rooting for the Dodgers this time, too. Oh, you think he was? So do you pick up on that stuff? What? Are you kidding me? Like, five minutes into the game. Like, you think he was? So do you pick up on that stuff? What? Are you kidding me? Like, five minutes into the game. Like,

it's insane. Like, you can't do that, man. Like, what are you guys talking about? They were, I mean, they were definitely rooting for the Dodgers, all these guys. Well, the other piece we didn't talk about yet was, or we talked about a little bit, Dave Roberts, who I think everybody just loves. I know I love him

because he changed my life as a baseball fan. But an awesome guy and somebody that I think would have been fired if they didn't win the World Series, right? They have to make a move at that point. But again, I don't know because he's managing by the numbers. The numbers come down from upstairs. Because I think if you were going to make a move, I mean, you know, they could have made a move after 17 they could have made a move after

after 18 you know i'm saying like they've been in they've been in the world series the last couple years and and they could have easily made a move back then but he was managing by their numbers so it's hard to fire fight you gotta fire the whole fucking front office you're gonna fire the manager you know what I'm saying? But how some of these teams run their teams. Well, that's the thing about sports now. Everybody else comes and goes, but the three dudes crunching numbers

for the owner's son in the front office. Those guys stick around for 10 years. And then they just say, hey, man, I gave them the right numbers. But I do think coming off game four, which was so devastating, which I know you saw on tape because I think you fell asleep. Yeah, I was asleep. Yeah, you fell asleep.

But you caught it eventually. I did. That was such a devastating loss. And it feels like if they had lost that, I don't know what you'd do if you're the Dodgers. You're like, wow, every year we're just going to lose in the worst way possible. Maybe it's the manager's fault.

You have to blame somebody. I'm going to be completely honest. If they lose this World Series to the Rays, that's a bad look. He may get fired. Yeah. Just because it's the Rays. Now he's going to get a five-year extension. Yeah, yeah.

The Dodgers are a good dude, though, so he deserves it, man. I mean, I've known him since I was, I think, like 17 or 18. 18. Yeah. He was in the Indians organization when I first got drafted. So he's always been good to me. Good dude. So the lessons from this World Series, it's always good to outspend the other team by three times as much money.

I think we learned that. That's a bonus. Anytime you can pick up the best player in baseball for 52 cents on the dollar, do that every time. Every time. That's great. And don't give up on one of the best pitchers of the last couple generations. The math is going to come around on that, dude.

It finally did. I was happy for him. Do you think a piece with Kershaw, though, is the fact that you didn't have the six-month regular season and it was shorter or maybe he had a little more strength stamina because it was a shortened season or am I overthinking

that? Yeah I mean he was probably a lot more sharp because he didn't have to go through the rigors of a whole summer pitching but I mean when you put it like that I almost think like damn like yeah he was like a little more fresher so maybe that's why he was able to to pitch well you know i'm saying i don't

want i don't want anybody to have like any asterisks on him like no no you know what i'm saying like i mean he finally pitched well these high pressure games he finally pitched well in the playoffs i just want to see him like finally people just stop fucking with him and let him like go into the hall of fame. Like this guy don't pitch another inning right now. He's been to the hall of fame. So, um,

you know, it's good to see him actually pitch them into a world series victory instead of pitching them out of it. You know, it's funny. I, before this playoffs, I only had three asterisk World Series.

81, because they stopped for two months. And they come back and it was just... Plus, the Dodgers and the Yankees were in the World Series. So I was determined to stick an asterisk on it. 95, which really the 2020 season was, was, uh, you know, much more asterisk. 95.

They came back. They came back. Uh, when they came back, like in may and everyone's mad at baseball, you weren't at, you weren't in the league yet, but everybody was mad about the lockout and the strength, the whole thing.

And then the Braves won and we were all like, fuck it. Um, and I always felt that was a little asterisk. And then the 2009 world series, just because you won. That was my other asterisk. You put an asterisk on that all you want. Because you won with A-Rod.

A-Rod's a perk. A-Rod the asterisk. The asterisk is what stands for the A. Nah, man. You know what? So many guys did what he did, but still couldn't hit a fucking baseball. You still got to be able to hit that thing, man. You guys were the best team that year.

We were. We really were from top to bottom. And I look back on some of the lineups. I got a lineup card in my office, and I look back, I'll be like, man, that team was really, really good. And you know what was good about that team is we all got along. Yes. That's very rare, especially in the first year coming together like that.

We had a blast. We had a good team. Yeah, that team was loaded. You beat the Angels and the ALCS, right? And then the Phillies. And then Pedro got the loss in the deciding game. I think that was the last game of his career. Yeah, it was, man.

It was kind of sad to watch because I knew going into that game, we were going to win that game. Like with him starting at that point in his career, it was like our best option. You know what I'm saying? So we needed to win that game six and I felt really confident about that. It was kind of sad to watch. Before we

go, any predictions for the offseason? Because you're like Jalen. You're a guy who knows things. Things come across your desk that don't come to the typical man. I haven't really been like checking in on offseason stuff yet just because I have been like so locked in on the World Series. But I mean, and plus, I just got to wait to see like what the rules are. Yeah.

Like who's going to have money to spend and where guys are going to go. But I think Bauer gets a big one-year deal somewhere impactful. I think somebody's going to want him to pitch in the playoff race for them. And I think it's going to be a one-year deal because they got to figure out with this guy's social media and all that shit, what this is actually going to be like having him in the clubhouse. So I think he gets a big one-year deal with a contender. I think Stroman gets a deal.

I like Stroman. I think a lot of guys like Strender. I think Stroman gets a deal. I like Stroman. I think a lot of guys like Stroman. I like Stroman too. He's just got to be locked in and focused and ready to pitch. But I think you put him in a spot where the fans and the organization demands him to be locked in and ready. I think he'll be great for you. One of my best

friends, diehard Yankee fan, Jacko, he's going to riot if the Yankees don't sign LeMahieu. I think the Bronx will riot if the Yankees don't sign LeMahieu. He's already like... I think the Bronx will riot if the Yankees don't sign LeMahieu. Everybody wants DJ back, bro. No, he's like, they can't mess around with this. They make so much money.

Don't mess around with this. Now, granted, they're not going to make as much money this year, but he is beloved. He might be the most beloved position, guys, since, I don't know since derrick but yeah i was gonna i didn't want to i wanted you to say it i didn't want to say no but i'm just thinking like yeah i mean and he plays every day and i mean has there ever been like a guy that signed as a free agent that's been more beloved than him no i mean he's great at that he was

homegrown like all these guys that are really like beloved yankees are mainly homegrown. All these guys that are really beloved Yankees are mainly homegrown. This guy came from Colorado, and people freak out about him. You know what I'm saying? That's the one guy that we can't afford to not time, for sure. All right. So you're doing R2C2, I think, later this week and all through the offseason. Get some football, some basketball. It's not the offseason.

This is the onseason for me. Now it's like football and basketball time. If I was playing, this would be the best time for me because it's actually football season. Do you think they should have played that Raiders game when your offensive line hadn't even practiced because everybody was in COVID quarantine? That was kind of

bogus. No, but Cam and the Patriots had to play against the Chiefs. You know what I'm saying? When they didn't get to practice all all that time well cam didn't play they could have moved it a day yeah i mean we weren't gonna win that game anyway we we short like we the thing about the like i was just saying i was saying this on sunday like the quarterback play is is crazy like if you watch if you just watch the tennessee and pitt and Pittsburgh game, Tennessee's a really, really good team. Yeah. Their quarterback isn't as good as Ben Roethlisberger.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it really comes down to the quarterback play. And that's why I was so excited to watch Kyler Murray against Russell Wilson on Sunday night. And just to watch him step up and kind of, like, put himself in those conversations. You watch, like, Justin Herbert. Like, you could tell he's going to be really good. You watch Joe Burrow like you could tell he's going to be really good. You watch Joe Burrow, you know that guy's going to be really good.

And then you watch some of like these little, these second tier quarterbacks, Tannehill, Derek Carr, these other guys, and their teams are like teetering right there to be really good, but they're not going to take that next step because the quarterback's just not great. I'll be, if Tua can join that Burrow conversation,

that Burrow-Herbert conversation, and this ends up being a historic draft, that'll be awesome. Man, I think Tua ends up being the Phillip Rivers to the Roethlisberger and Eli of Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert. Wow. Bold prediction. Is that bold?

Is that bold prediction? Oh, he still had a good career, Phillip Rivers, right? Yeah. It's fine. You just never wanted to put him in a tease. And you never wanted to bet on him in the playoffs. But it was a really good career. I think he ends up the third best out of these three quarterbacks this year. He's in the best situation team-wise because Miami in that division, it's dying to get stolen by

anybody. And they're 3-3, and if he can upgrade from Fitz and they have an easier schedule... But I still think the Bills are really good. I think Josh Allen's really good. Really? I'm not a believer yet. No? Yeah. I don't like my quarterbacks up and down.

But that's just me. I don't trust him yet. He's got to win my trust. Kyler, I'm in on because I have him on both fantasy teams and I've watched a lot of the cards. Kyler's nice, man. He's so good. The weird thing about him, though, is his quarterback

personality. It's not like he doesn't have that swagger leader thing like that Russ has. It's almost like watching a little kid who's been homeschooled and hasn't interacted with the other kids in the class yet. And then when you see him interact, like he got really mad. He was selling out. Who was he yelling at?

The two tight ends who didn't block their fits on that screen? And he was like throwing a tantrum. I was like, I'm kind of into this. But at the same time, he didn't say anything for an hour. For me, it just feels like he doesn't panic. You know what I'm saying? Like he won't panic at all. And like you said, I've been watching him a lot the last two years.

And I mean, he runs around the field and it looks frantic, but I feel like he's under control. So I'm like when you're watching Lamar Jackson, like he's all over the place, but he's under control. So I agree. When you're watching Lamar Jackson, like he's all over the place. But he's under control. He knows exactly what the fuck's going on. And Kyler Murray's the same way. Well, with Kyler, like they were saying,

they were talking about him growing as a quarterback. And they were like, he has to be, you know, just more vocal. And then they were like, he's just got to talk more. Because it's like when you have a quiet like, he's just got to talk more. Because it just, it's like when you have a quiet quarterback, that's a weird dynamic, right? So, but he's also young. I think he's like 21 or 22.

I think he's like two years younger than Burrow. Yeah, he's a year or two younger than Burrow. But they keep saying that Justin Herbert's quiet, but this guy's throwing dimes all over the fucking field.

You don't have to say a word if you throw the ball like that guy. Well, Herbert looks like he's like 13 years old. He's another one. He looks like a little kid who got to play with the adults.

And then you watch him and he's throwing 55 yarders. Man, he's so advanced for a rookie, man. It sucks as a fucking Raider fan because he's in my division. I know. And we got Mahomes.

Like, we have to watch this guy kill us for a long time. But he's really good, man. Yeah, I didn't think of that. That's tough. You hate having the killer quarterbacks think of that. That's tough. You hate having the killer quarterbacks in your division. It's something I never really had to worry about the last 20 years.

Yeah, you had the killer quarterback. Yeah, we had the killer, and everybody else had the crap ones. But, yeah, I think it's a really exciting quarterback time. I love watching Murray. Wilson's been amazing. Mahomes, all the rookies. You go on down the line. Rodgers is a little rejuvenated. Brady might be an MVP running now after last

week. Well, do you think it should count for his MVP candidacy that he talked Gronk into coming out of retirement and then he also gets Antonio? He's actually part-time GM for them, too. Part-time GM? This guy's the best fucking GM in the league.

What are you talking about part-time GM? Look at the team he put around. He's got Fournette. He's got AB coming. He's got Gronk. Like, I mean, this guy's the best GM in the league. He's a better GM than Belichick. He's got more talent than they got up in New England.

See, I think that should count. One of my big regrets in 2011, I voted Derrick Rose to win because I have a vote. And I voted for Derrick Rose for NBA MVP. And I should have voted for Wade because he was one of the best three guys that year. But more importantly, he convinced LeBron to come play with him in Miami.

He convinced LeBron to leave Cleveland and play with him. That should have counted in his candidacy, right? Yeah, I mean. And Bosh. And Bosh. I mean, but that definitely counts. I mean, look at what Brady's doing down there. You know what I'm saying?

With all these guys that he gets around. And, I mean, he's got Fournette running hard. And, you know, if you can keep that guy healthy, I mean, he's just going to make that team so much better. Take the pressure off Brady. I mean, this guy's throwing ball 50 yards in the air again now. Like, they look good. Tampa was really, really good.

I don't know what happened to Mike Evans, if there's a decoy, whatever. But Scottie Miller was, you know, he's open a lot in these games. And you just think, like, if you just take Antonio Brown and give him these Scottie Miller plays, now I'm frightened. Man, because those are going, he's going to the house with those. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, all that shit in the inside,

those little routes that he catches, he's taking that to the house. So it's going to be, I mean, that's going to be fun to watch. Them and the Saints down the stretch. If Brady was at my age, I would pick them to win the Super Bowl. I'm still not convinced.

I'm still not convinced you could do it for five months, but he looks good right now. I think if they can protect him, he takes one hit. I mean, he's one hit away, but if they can protect him, man, like they did last week, I watched, I mean, obviously I watched the whole game playing against the Raiders, but if they can protect, they keep them standing up. I mean, there's no stopping them. Well, you know, think about how your body changed from like age 30 to age 40, just for what you were doing for a living and how you started to feel things differently as you hit your mid-late 30s now imagine being a quarterback at age 43 i don't care how much tb12 how much plyometrics all the shit that he's doing at some

point you're 43 yeah and you're getting hit the wrong way the wrong time and there's no way i i don't know how physically you can endure that yeah but that's what i'm saying that's why he's just one bad hit away but if he can hand the shit off to four net and you know throw these little routes to ab and then have his tight ends ready i mean i just don't see how they don't keep this rolling and getting even better and their defense is so good. Their defense is so fast, man. So they pretty much got it all rolling right now. Yeah, they're the most

complete team. They can score. They can play from behind, which I think is important. They can protect the lead. They can block. And they can make plays on defense, which I think that's the only team you could say all those things about. All right, CeCe. Pleasure as always. I enjoyed the bubble playoffs.

It was fun listening to you guys. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for staying up late. No problem. Thanks for having me. Kevin O'Connor from the Ringers here. He just put up a new mock draft that had a bunch of trades in it. Naturally, I was pleased.

I was excited. I wanted to talk about some of the stuff in here. The whole off season sped up, started getting a wind of this. I think like two weekends ago, I heard about it. I talked about it was selling the pot and then it started to grow. Now we have this condensed season. The draft's going to be mid November for HC right after and the season potentially starting 22nd to the 25th range. What have you heard from teams about how short that window is? Well, I mean, it's a little bit shorter than teams would like. They ask for eight weeks notice. It seems like maybe they'll get around seven and a half, seven weeks before the season

starts. But ultimately, everything I've heard in my conversations this past week, I was somebody who thought it was going to be February or March, who supported February or March. But it sounds like between starting around Christmas, December 22nd, or Martin Luther King Jr. weekend, could be a $500 million loss between those two times. And for the NBA, there's not a lot to gain with waiting. It seems like there's only somewhat to lose. And most teams, most people I talk to seem to be in strong

support of this. And it seems like we're going in that direction pretty quickly. Yeah. When I first heard about it, it made sense to me because it was all about protecting the season after this one and basically just admitting that they're screwed with this season and what that does to the cap, the luxury tax. There's been some good stuff out there about this. They're trying to keep the cap at 109. Teams are terrified of going over the luxury tax this year. And then you have the small market teams who kind of enjoyed getting a little revenue sharing in and now they're looking at possibly that not happening. This is the first time really since the late 2000s that I

remember economics becoming a factor as we think about the offseason. Do you think we'll see any teams basically doing trades that maybe aren't that favorable to them to cut salary? We've seen this in the past. We've seen teams trade away draft picks for money.

We've seen teams dump players that might have a bloated salary that they were trying to get rid of. And maybe I can't remember. We haven't seen a lot of those. We haven't seen many picks being dumped in recent years. But I wouldn't be shocked if we see some of those in this year's draft in addition to players being dumped with draft picks as an incentive to do that. Because some teams are in better shape financially

than a lot of others. And that's why they want to get back in December is to earn as much as they can with the broadcasting rights. Right. And then you have a team like Golden State who is two moves away from being a top three contender potentially. And yet they're already over the luxury tax.

They have this giant trade exception that during a normal year, I think they're probably used. But during a year when you don't want to be way over the tax, they do some sort of trade. They put in somebody making like 15 million a year in that exception. Plus you're paying a pick. Then you throw in the tax.

All of a sudden you're paying like 50 million for $20 million worth of guys. I think teams are going to be really hesitant. The Clippers would be the only team to me that would just say, fuck this, because that's been Ballmer's attitude the whole time. He's paid top dollar over and over again for everybody, has not been afraid of money. Is there any other team that you feel like

would just not be afraid of money? I mean, I think the Warriors could maybe fall into that bucket depending on how they want to approach the season, coming off a lot of rests, coming off so much time off and a rejuvenated cast of stars looking to make another run together with the number two pick in the draft, by the way. So for them, I could see them going that way too by trying to maximize this coming season.

You said there are a couple moves away from being a top three contender filled with Steph and Clay and Draymond and the number two pick and Wiggins and a couple guys they can sign. I feel like they might be there right now. Here's an example.

OKC might just decide we just want to get rid of all of our salaries. And they say to Golden State, give us Schroeder. Give us like Eric Pascal and two number two picks back. Take on his contract. We want the cap space. And now if you're Golden State, you're like, wow, we could get a top seven piece for our rotation, but his salary is 15.5. And then on top of it, all the tax implications, and we have to pay our number two pick. I'll be interested to see if they do something like that. I'd also be interested to see if there are teams out there like OKC,

Orlando, a couple of smaller market teams like Memphis, Charlotte, who are just like, hey, will somebody take one? Maybe even a team like Miami that has somebody like Olenek on an expiring deal and wants to create cap space for next season. I think there's going to be some weird trades, and we haven't seen that in a while. We haven't really seen that since the late 2000s. Why is the rumor mill so quiet right now? That's good. I think that's a good thing.

I think when the rumor mill's loud, that usually means nothing's happening. How many times has a trade happened where we've heard rumors of the trade I think that's a good thing. I think when the rumor mill's loud, that usually means nothing's happening. Like how many times have we, has a trade happened where we've heard rumors of the trade for five days? It's always an out of nowhere trade, right? Exactly. So we think the teams that are looking to move, I think Indiana is top of the list

just because they're in a weird situation. Yeah, they have that Turner Sabonis thing that Turner playing basically out of position as a stretch five isn't great for them. He's got a very tradable contract. You have Oladipo heading into his last year. And they have a lot of assets. And they're like two trades away

from being way more interesting. I have them down. Sacramento, I think you always have to consider. Who else would you have in there as tradable teams? Would you put Philly in there? Clippers in there, I think, with somebody like Lou Williams, maybe a sign and trade with Montrezl Harrell. They're another team that comes to mind.

Obviously, you mentioned OKC earlier. That goes without saying with them, with all their guys, Adams, Paul, Gallinari sign and trade, Schroeder. Those two are probably the first two that come to mind. I wonder what are some of those teams maybe on the either contending bubble or the playoff bubble that might try to make a push. I reported today that Atlanta

is shopping the number six pick. Their one team that I've heard has had conversations about that. But is there anybody else maybe in that Atlanta group that might want to push for the playoffs that could try to make additions too? So what pick does Atlanta have in the actual draft? Sixth pick.

They already did a Capella move. They'd probably want one more guy in that 27 to 30 age range who kind of knows who he is. Then you could tell your fans, we're going for the playoffs this year. We think we have it. I actually personally think

that's a mistake for them. I like the six pick in this draft. I think that six to 15 range, there's some gems. And I think it's one of those, you've been on this since day one. It's one of those weird drafts where getting Bam out of bio

with the 14th pick, like there's a lot of possibilities. Donovan Mitchell with 13, whatever that was. There's a couple guys that could be like that this year. I don't know if I would trade if I were them. What do you think? Historically, the way I tend to feel about team building is you never want to rush things.

You've got to take your time and build for sustainability and always try to win long-term. But with Atlanta, I feel that to an extent. But also, Trae Young was unbelievable last season. Offensively. always try to win long term but with atlanta i feel that to an extent but also trey young was unbelievable last season and offensively offensively defensively he's lost and that's going to be a problem for them in future playoff series by the way yeah but but with atlanta is their incentive when you have your best player one of the best point guards in basketball on a rookie contract to try to build around that

and maximize that before you have to sign him to a max once that contract is up. There's a little bit of logic to it if you're the Hawks, right? Yeah. And get the guy who knows who he is. You're basically trying to make your version of the...

The best case scenario of this trade was a trade I did not like when it happened was Ray Allen for the number five pick when the Celtics traded that. They got Ray Allen and Delonte back. It was a trade that's like, what are we doing? We've just guaranteed we're a 44-win

team. Then KG is the next piece. And all of a sudden, it made a ton of sense. Is that out there? That's not out there for any team right now, I don't think. Unless it's one of those shocking trades like you're alluding to, I don't think. Unless it's one of those shocking trades, like you're alluding to, where we don't see something coming.

Yeah, so like, we know who the available candidates are, right? Yeah, I threw out on Zach's podcast last week, I was talking about Marcus Smart. If Golden State called and said, hey, what about Marcus for the number two? What do you do if you're the Celtics? You love the idea of trading Marcus Smart.

No, I love the idea of the Celtics being put in a position where they have to have a 12-person staff meeting deciding whether to do it. I don't think I would do it, but if you're the Celtics, when are you ever going to get a chance to pick in the top five again? Yeah. Because you have Tatum and Brown and Kemba for at least the next three years.

You're going to be good. And Tatum and Brown are going to be there, hopefully, for the rest of the decade. You're never going to be in the top five again. Yeah. Cause you have Tatum and Brown and Kemba for at least the next three years, you're going to be good. And Tatum and Brown are going to be there. Hopefully for the rest of the decade, you're never going to be in the top five again. I mean, unless there's a guy that you love in this year's draft, if you're in the Celtics front office, a guy like Marcus smart with his character that he brings to that team with his defense with secondary playmaking. I don't love the idea of trading a guy like that for a lot of uncertainty in this year's draft class. Again, unless there's a guy that that front office loves at the top of the draft. That's how I feel.

My dream scenario, keep smart, figure out how you can pull off the Hayward, Miles Turner, whatever the incarnation of that thing is. Or if you can't, bring Hayward back. I love Tyrell Terry, as you know. Yes. We're both on the Tyrell Terry train. He's right in that range.

I love that he was 6'2 without sneakers. I was very excited. I haven't been that excited about somebody being 6'2 without sneakers. Weighing in at 175 now. Oh, yeah. From 150 as a freshman at Stanford. That's a lot of weight in one year. Yeah, and why?

Because he's a freaking hard worker. He's a hard worker i actually i interviewed him for last week for a story running i believe tomorrow or thursday on the ringer and i'm impressed by him i mean he's a smart kid and like he he mentioned to me how in some ways you know these last six months he's benefited from the work that he's been able to put in over time with the draft being in nove instead of June. Like he said, the conversations that he's had with people from teams then compared to now or the feedback he was getting then compared to now is dramatically different because the number one concern with him was his body. How much weight can he put on? And, you know,

the work he's put in with a nutritionist and working out and it's pretty impressive. It seems like his athleticism has improved. I had him in my top 10 before, and I think he might have as well. I feel pretty good about that now. You finally came around on Wiseman. We were texting about this two weeks ago. I just feel like he's such a unique player

for this draft that he has to go top three. And it's a draft where you have kind of too many point guards's a draft where you have, you know, kind of too many point guards for a league where I would say 80% of the teams are pretty happy with their point guard situation. And somebody like Wiseman, the more they stare at them after six months and you interview them on zoom and all these things, you kind of start talking yourself into them. So in your mock draft today, you had Charlotte trading up from three to one for him, Minnesota bouncing back two spots, picking up an unprotected pick potentially.

I like that one. Hornets fans did not. Who did? Oh, Hornets fans weren't happy? They did not. Yeah. They did not like it at all. I feel like they should stay where they are because of that.

I just wouldn't trade up for a draft where there's not a homerun pick. And if I'm Minnesota and I don't love Wiseman, I'm going to try to pretend I love Wiseman until somebody makes me an offer. We, I think the consensus feeling is golden state likes him. Who the hell knows with them, but I might be sitting there. Well, they might be sitting there the same way.

The Celtics were, were, you know, just felt like Tatum's going to be there at three. We're trading down and he's going to be there because the Lakers are taking Lonzo. Golden State might just feel like Wiseman's going to be there too. We're not saying anything. Do you have any read, like real read on the Warriors?

Because there's so much misinformation out there. I don't either. It's everybody I talk to in the league doesn't know what they're going to do. Talk to different people. You hear different things that contrast with each other with this team. They're doing a good job. They're playing the draft really well in terms of putting out information that makes it hard to understand what they want.

Because for this team, you could make an argument at number two for a lot of different guys. And I wonder for them who that actual player could be. With Wiseman, I feel like Wiseman does make a lot of sense because with Draymond getting older, maybe he's a piece that you want to flip. Eventually Wiseman gives you a young center to start to have in place there

with a, you know, a style that you might need in a series against an Anthony Davis or Nicole Yoke. It's tough because there's two paths, right? One is, this is our home run chance to get a guy at a position that we don't have.

The other way to think of it is we're an awesome team. If we can add a guy that we know is awesome, let's do that. It's the safer play for what we have. We're basically just adding, we already have the Thanksgiving dinner. We're nitpicking over whether we want to add mashed potatoes or stuffing just to make this more awesome. I don't know if we need a ham. I don't think we need a ham with the turkey. And maybe they're thinking that way. Maybe they just want the sure thing.

It really depends on what you think of Wiseman. You've been studying him for two plus years at this point. And you don't have a feel of, like his ceiling basement is pretty extensive the distance i think the basement for him is at least role player i mean with his athleticism at you know seven one seven foot six wingspan his ability to run the floor ability to just alter shots with his size around the rim i have a hard time seeing wiseman failing and you know and falling out of rotations in the nba i think he's going to have a solid career.

Me too. The question really with him is, and this is to your point about not understanding after not seeing him in college, is what is the true ceiling? How good is he as a ball handler? As somebody who does dribble on the perimeter and take some shots, not shoot a great percentage, what level can that reach? How well does he read the floor? You talk about the Warriors.

What's important to them? Obviously, shooting ability for their guards, but the ability to make quick decisions and pass the ball and set proper screens and quickly read the floor and rotate on defense. And those are the things with Wiseman that there's questions about because we just haven't seen him since high school. I mean, the college example is, you know, it's nothing. It's really worthless to look back on.

And with him, that's the concern. But if you're Golden State, you know, I think that is a perfect basketball fit for him because he can do all that foundational stuff. He can run the floor. He can be your new JaVale McGee during his rookie year. And then long-term, maybe he learns and builds those habits. I mean, if I'm a Warriors fan and I

get Wiseman, I'm excited. If I'm Wiseman, I'm even more excited to land there because there's no better fit for him to develop as a pro. It seems even reading your mock draft that Wiseman and Edwards have separated themselves a tiny bit from the pack now. Depending

on who you talk to, really. I mean, are you getting a sense that they've truly separated as the one and two guys and LaMelo was sort of in that third spot in the eye of a lot of teams? I think LaMelo brings an incredible fear factor. The combination of the family

and whether he's going to be able to handle everything that comes with becoming a star NBA rookie. And then on top of it, his last year playing in a garbage league basically and developing some bad habits and then not playing for six to seven months. I would have a real fear of that. Plus, to me, that's the deepest position in the league. That's the position that unless you're a super duper star or I'm getting awesome value, I just don't want to take a point card that high. I think it's much harder to find a two or three perimeter guy or a guy like Wiseman. It's really easy to find point cards and you can trade for him every year, right? You can have

Spencer Dinwiddie right now if you want him. You know. He's making 10 million. He'll do a good job at point guard. He'll be solid. But it's really hard to find somebody like Edwards if he actually turns out to be good. Sure. And with Lomelo, he has the one premier talent with his playmaking ability. I mean, he's a wizard with the ball in his hands. And if you think about what that could be with the development of a reliable jump shot, that's a hard player to find, though, Bill. I mean, like Lomelo, I have my questions about him with the jumper, with the shot selection, with the decision making, with the defensive intensity and all that. That's all real. And that's why I don't have him number one on my board. But if he's able to develop as a scorer with his passing ability, you might be able to find a point guard, but it's hard to find a point guard like that. And that's why his supporters are so high on him because you're gambling on a guy that could be really, really special. But I do wonder how good his jump shot actually is. He's never shot a high percentage since high school. Free throw percentage has always been quite low and the defense it's worrisome

it's worrisome but you could say the same thing with somebody like anthony edwards who has shot a low percentage and also takes some poor shots the fact is is all of these guys at the top of the draft there's there's real warts on their game that could hold them back from being star level players and like to me there's less certainty a month away from the draft now or three weeks away from the draft now of where these guys are going to slot and where they're going to end up. Because so many people feel drastically differently

about a Wiseman. Some people have him won. Clearly, other guys are like, why take him top five? And same with the Mellow and up and down the board from the star prospects to the potential role players like desmond bain there's just there's less consensus than i can remember in any year that i've been doing this and just for the record i'm not a big edwards fan he makes me super nervous i i think there's it's more realistic that he doesn't pan out the way people

think than that he does i that's why i like the value once we get into that 7th and 15th range. 6th, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where Killian Hayes, who you've been on since day one, Terry, there's these guys that the other thing, you're getting them lower. It's a cheaper price. You're also, there's some chip on the shoulder potential too, right? The further you drop. I love Halliburton, which you know.

Yep. And for me, I don't I love Halliburton, which you know. And for me, I don't know why Halliburton, I know LaMelo has the higher quote unquote ceiling, but Halliburton's an adult, you know, and you bring him in and he just seems like Andre Miller 2.0 to me. He's a good player. I mean, and you know, you mentioned Andre Miller, but also bigger than Andre Miller, six, five, six foot eight wingspan. And with him, there's one concern and that's how good of a shooter can he be off the dribble? Yeah, that's, that's the number one concern teams have. I mean, the athleticism scoring around the

rim, whatever you can live without that. But if he's able to develop his jumper off the dribble, he's going to be a really good player for a long time. But even without that, there's a, it's sort of like with Wiseman, we were just talking about how he has a foundation for a successful career I have little doubt Halliburton is going to at least be a good role player he's too smart and too skilled as a passer not to well he's also seems like a gym rat guy so yeah the holes that he has in his game he'll work at now I said the same thing about RJ Barrett who was terrible last year but but I still believe. It's also a tough situation, though, with him.

Yeah, totally. All right, so we're going to take a break. Then we're going to go through the top 14 and just quickly bang this up. All right, so KOC's mock draft. He predicted a trade between Charlotte and Minnesota. Three to one with Charlotte giving up an unprotected 2022. I personally do not think they will give up an unprotected pick like that. But I do think it could be a situation where they take a contract back, take some money off Minnesota's plate and some sort of pick swap thing. Some incentives, but not too much incentive.

Because if I was... I'm not surprised the Charlotte fans would let me. I would go, like, look, we suck. I'm not trading any unprotected picks for this draft. When putting together the mock, I was contemplating, should I put a top three

protection on this or something i'm like just leave it unprotected and yeah how hornets fans end up feeling about it and they're not a fan of it i feel a lot of hornets fans responded today saying we can get wiseman at three why trade up for him they might be right they might be right but they might be wrong too right they might be wrong if golden state really does indeed like him as a lot of people around the league believe, but who knows what to believe right now. So Minnesota State, who do they take?

I feel like Anthony Edwards is hard to say no to. You've got D'Angelo Russell. How do you feel about a Russell ball backcourt with those two guys? Or would you prefer the size of an Edwards? Lamello and Russell with Towns? I'm losing with those two guys so you or would you prefer the size of an edwards lamello and russell with towns yeah i'm losing with those threesome that i don't feel like it's i don't feel like

it's a winning combo you need you need you need a culture changer a guy who brings in defensive intensity and edwards at times did that as a freshman there's other times the defensive intensity was not there but if he's able to turn that on i mean mean, he's a guy who could switch and defend against anybody for you. And that's the appeal. And for Minnesota, putting him against the other guys, to me, the scoring he would bring as the second guy behind Towns, as a versatile guy next to Russell on the backcourt, to me, he just makes the most sense if you're drafting for upside there.

Weirdly, they're in not a great spot with that pick. It's a tough year. I don't like Towns and Russell as my foundation. If I'm bringing a third guy to be the third member of the quote-unquote big three in Minnesota, I don't want another guy that I have to worry about

what their upside is, why are they good stats, bad team guys, all that stuff. I want like just a home run. That guy's an adult put him in and I don't see that at top three. So he's not there. I mean, like it's the type of year where if they trade down,

I could see like with Edwards, Denny Avdia, who we have third in our market. We'll talk about him going to Minnesota to me. If let's just say theoretically, that's their guy. Let's say they love Avdia. Just take him at number one.

If the deal is not there to trade down, I don't, I don't think these teams should be afraid of what the mock drafts say, what people's big boards say. They shouldn't care how fans react. If you think Denny Avdia is the number one player or the number two player, if you're a golden state, just take them. There should be no fear this year in terms of what a reaction is going to be to this draft that has no clear top guy and avdi is somebody who makes sense too you mentioned somebody you can come in right away come in and play right away aside from the questions about his jump shot he's ready to

come in right away and be a defensive presence and and be a guy who makes smart plays offensively. He's only at 19 ready-made, I think. I think Minnesota's screwed. I almost feel like whatever they do, I feel like it's not going to work. You go to Golden State at two and you just have them

going upside with Edwards or Wiseman. Are we sure there's no way they take LaMelo? I mean, I don't think there's no way. I mean, think about those qualities. If any team could talk themselves into, we'll bring this guy in. We have the best culture.

He can learn from the best three possible teammates you could have in that situation. And we're now removing all the fear elements and we're just getting the pure talent with these awesome people around them and the best infrastructure possible, best shooting coach, best everything on down the line. He could be awesome for us.

Sure. But, you know, on the other hand, could there be a dark horse here? You know, like an Anthony Bennett style pick where it comes out of nowhere because we've heard every name out of golden state they like edwards great workout with wiseman they were blown away by avdia we haven't heard about any of those guys that you were mentioning earlier in that 6 to 15 range like a killian hayes we haven't heard any name like that about your guy killing us i'm just saying, maybe with Golden State,

they could be that team that has a shock on draft night. Or that could be Minnesota, too. Could be Minnesota, yep. Who could be the Anthony Bennett? Whoa! Yes. Who would be their whoa guy at Minnesota, number one? If you had to bet on a whoa guy for them.

To me, it's Killian Hayes. He's my number one prospect in the draft. And I know a lot of people in the league have him as a top five prospect. He's climbing. And I mean, like with D'Angelo Russell, he can share the ball. Hayes can play with the ball or without the ball with which Russell Russell can do to any offers the defensive element. He's a really good defender as just a teenager. Those are the qualities you need. I mean, with Edwards, you do have questions about the defense. He's not a good off-ball defender.

Hayes is. It's one of his best skills right now. And I just look at that and I wonder, how is he not in the mainstream conversation as a top five pick? I'm flabbergasted by it, to be honest, Bill, because he is in the conversation as a top five guy with a lot of people I talked to in the league, but he's the mainstream hasn't yet, uh, matched those types of conversation. It's weird. I had a trade on Zach's pod where Minnesota goes from one to three, Charlotte moves up three to one. Gives Minnesota Terry Rozier, who had kind of a secretly pretty good season last year and is on a fair contract.

Put him next to Russell. He could be the defender, and then Minnesota can still get whoever they want. Charlotte gets Wiseman and dumps the last two years of Rozier's contract for an expiring, basically. You seem to think the Charlotte-Wiseman stuff could be real, whether it's three or a trade-up or whatever else it might be.

Yeah, possibly. I think it makes sense for them. So, Charlotte at three. I mean, it's one of those teams, they kind of have every position, but they also need everything because they don't have an all-star in any position.

It's a clean slate there. I don't mind their guards, but they certainly could use another guard. I have no idea what they're going to do. Chicago at four. So you have LaMelo going to them here. And you said league sources say the Bulls are likely targeting a lead playmaker in the draft.

Well, that's tough because they took Kobe White like seventh last year. I thought he was supposed to be the lead playmaker. My impression is that they view him as more of an off guard you know a guy who shares the ball but isn't your lead number one playmaker and that and if that's the case that creates questions about what does that mean for zach levine in that situation if you view kobe which is why i was kind of shocked by the pick last year. With White and Levine, it doesn't seem like a winning long-term backcourt to me. And LaMelo, if he were to fall to number four, would certainly be an interesting factor in that equation. I wonder if there's a possibility of

Levine and Sacramento. Because remember, Sacramento tried to sign him to the restricted free agent offer. And they have the Buddy Heald contract. And that is going to be $24 million. And he's unhappy and wants out. And I wonder if you're Chicago and you think like, all right, we'll take Hayes. We'll turn Levine into Buddy Heald in the 12th pick. Maybe we can get that from Sacramento.

And we're reframing our team. and now we don't have to rely on Zach Levine shooting 24 times a game. I mean, the weird thing is, even including Levine, they have some nice pieces. Say what you want about the front office. We like their bigs. We like Markkinen and Carter. I'd be trying to trade for Markkinen left and right right now.

I like Wendell Carter a lot. I would hope for him in this new system he's able to do more than Jim Boylan gave him to do. He's got some playmaking skill there. There's a little bit of Al Horford to his game that hopefully they're able to unleash. There's a fun Bulls blow it up scenario where they trade Wendell Carter

for the two pick, the Golden State. They trade Zach Levine for Buddy Heald in the 12. And then they have two, 4, and 12 with Kobe White and Buddy Heald they have a new GM right he's all fired up I wish they hired you Bill

well they could have 2, 4, 12, Kobe White Buddy Heald and Markkinen kind of in on that I think the Bulls are going to be up to stuff the new GM always wants to make healed and marketing. Kind of in on that. It's pretty interesting. Even if I don't love the draft. I think the Bulls are going to be up to stuff. The new GM always wants to like make,

he always wants to, he doesn't want to inherit the team that somebody else picked and then be stuck to that. They always make the moves. Number five is the Cavs, who are just uninspiring. I don't know what you do if you're them. You have that

giant Kevin Love contract. I guess Drummond comes back. I have no idea why they think Drummond and Kevin Love should be playing minutes together. You have two guards who are basically Sexton and Garland. I don't see that as a backcourt of the future at all. And now you have

this fifth pick, which is right in that spot where you're in that tweener spot. Anybody you're taking is a little too high. You almost would rather be nine. If you're going to take Toppin versus five, five seems high. It's like Culver last year. It was like,

man, Culver, what do you go? Sixth. But if it was 11th, I'd feel better about him. Anyway, I don't know what the Cavs do.

And it's just depressing in general. It's a... I mean, I like Darius Garland and Colin Sexton. There's some to like there, too, and I really like Larry Nance. Still think he's a good player, underrated player, versatile. But I don't know where this team goes. When I look at them

and I try to evaluate what they'll be, what they want to be five years from now, I don't even look at Kevin Love and Andre Drummond. Those contracts will be off the books. They'll be gone. So to me, if you're able to get an Okongwu from USC here or an Obi Toppin, a guy who... Toppin's defense is a concern.

He does not move well, but with NBA strength and conditioning, maybe you can improve that to an acceptable level. And if that's the case, you've got a guy who can throw down lob dunks and can shoot threes and can make plays for you off the dribble. That's pretty valuable in today's league

to have that out of your four or your five. That's what you want. Isn't he older than Jason Tatum? He's 22. Yeah, he is older. I'm out. That's the first one where I'm just out. I'm using my Mo B he is older. I'm out. That's the first one where I'm just out. I'm using my Mo Bamba immunity card. I'm out.

Okay. I mean, it's a real conversation about his age. He's 22. There's a lot of 20-year-olds that you can draft right now who are comparable at the stage. There's a couple times where it shot me in the foot. I remember with Lillard,

I was like, ah, he's too old. Take Austin Rivers. He's three years younger. I'm gaining three years. But Lillard, I just missed that one. And if you did all the research, which I obviously didn't that year, and everybody was like, gym rat, gym rat, maniac. All he wants to do is win. The guy's a born leader.

There were all these pieces that I just missed. For this guy, I don't know. The 22-year-old, not crazy about that one. Number six is Atlanta, which we talked about. You had a trade that I liked. I thought it was... I actually think the Spurs would have to throw in more

because I don't know how much value DeRozan has. We know he's the anti-darling of the advanced metrics group, but you add 11 and DeRozan to the Hawks for six. Now, DeRozan's good. You can go to him. He's a good player. He's a good player. And if you're moving back five picks to get a guy you're going to want to get anyway,

maybe that does make sense. If you're San Antonio, you know, you're not going anywhere with DeRozan and Aldridge. I put that trade together just thinking, you know, what if there's a guy San Antonio wants to target like the year they traded to get Kawhi Leonard and Isaac Okoro from

Auburn freshman. He stands out as somebody who fits that profile going to be a really good defender in the NBA and has some qualities on offense as a good decision maker and maybe a fixable jump shot that they could find appealing. But main thing with that pick is, you know, for the Spurs, I feel like DeRozan is a guy that can end up being on the move. I've heard he's been involved in some trade conversations

and one year left on his deal in his 30s now. Maybe San Antonio could be easing towards a rebuild here i wouldn't be shocked if the rosen gets a little bit more interest in the trade market than people think because the year he just had he was one of the most in most efficient isolation scores that has been recorded in league history it was an unbelievable season and that's what san antonio like what if you plug him into say houston system with all that spacing he had a great year as a scorer and he's a good playmaker too so he could offer a lot to either contending teams that are looking to make a stronger push or teams like in atlanta trying to get into the playoffs with a quality veteran

i think he's a little bit more valuable than people probably give him credit for. He's sort of gone from overrated to underrated. I agree with you. And I've mentioned that to people who love advanced metrics and they get mad. But I'm like, look, if there's 90 seconds left in the game and I'm down one,

I can give him the ball and he's going to get a good 17-footer, much like Jimmy Butler. Or he's going to get to the line. And I still think guys like that are valuable, especially for a team that's trying to make the playoffs. So I'm with you, KFC. Number seven is Detroit,

who has the worst roster in the league, start to finish. They're in the worst situation. It's unbelievable, actually, because it's not like they've been good the last 12 years. I don't know how you're not relevant and you don't have any assets. But this pick and the first rounder they took last year, I'm not going to say his name.

You say his name. Oh, Damboya. Thank you, Damboya. Yeah. Yeah, that guy. Sorry, I paused for a second there. Those are their assets. My question for you,

if the Celtics wanted to acquire Blake Griffin for Hayward's expiring year, could they get that? Could they do that? Who would have to throw in what for that? Blake's got two years left. Hayward's got one year left. Which side has to throw in more? Both of them are obviously left. Which side has to throw in more? Both of them are obviously asking for the other team to throw in more in that scenario. I think last time we saw Blake Griffin

when he was healthy-ish was still a really good player. End of not this season, but the season prior. And Gordon Hayward, the last time we saw him being a real high-level player, aside from a couple flashes, was probably pre-injury. All right, so Hayward, the last time we saw him being a real high-level player, aside from a couple flashes, was probably pre-injury. All right, so Hayward, Romeo, 26 and 30 for Griffin and seven. They're hanging up on me?

I mean, that's a good deal for Boston. So I have to throw in 14. I have to do Hayward and 14 for Griffin and seven. And does Detroit want more than that? I don't know if they'd get more than that. Hayward's still a good player. I think Detroit would want 26 and 32. I don't know.

I'm just talking it out. What's the market for Blake Griffin right now? Because I feel like if Blake can play in the postseason, maybe you load manage him during the season, but if he's able to play, he still has some value as a playmaker and big. We just saw the importance of having size during this playoff. And he can shoot

threes now. Yeah, for sure. There's value there. Knows where to go. Knows what to do. He's only, I think, 31 and was really good two years ago before his knee went out. So my question would be, could his knee come back? Do you think the other one with the Celts here would be just 14, 26 and 30 for seven? And if you're Detroit, you're like, we don't have any players. We're not getting a superstar at seven. Could we get somebody we love at 14? We get two

more picks and we can hope we hit on two of these dudes versus one dude see to me if i'm detroit or you know even even eight you know nicks there's some appeal there and taking extra picks because this year's draft class there's a lot of good quality role players to be to be found in the mid first late first and even early second it's it's a weak class in terms of stars we're talking about the weaknesses of these guys up top, but there's a lot of good guys that I'd be happy to have on my team late in the first round. The Knicks are eight.

They're being run by two former CAA dudes, Leon Rose and World Bud West. I'm just assuming there's a CAA client that they love. I have no inside information. Because they have all this, especially with the agencies, they do all these workouts. They get all this extra intel.

If there's extra intel about any of these dudes, I would think the Knicks would take advantage of them. You have them taking Killian Hayes, who, the more closer we get to this draft, the more I feel like I could see him going five or six. To me, he's the total wild card.

There's a 12-point swing for him with me. You could tell me he's going third. I wouldn't be shocked. I wouldn't either. Hayes has gone from a guy who most people considered late lottery and now he's getting a little bit of mid-lottery hype. I had him to the bulls on my mock last week that he hasn't been connected to them. But it seems like that range is a possibility.

And for the Knicks at eight, I'd be pretty happy with getting Killian Hayes there. Like I said, I think he's the best player in the draft. He brings all those shot creation qualities that we're talking about with Edwards and LaMelo Ball. He brings the playmaking qualities, and he's a really, really good defender. He plays hard, rotates well. He's a smart player, good kid. Seems like a lot of the boxes are being checked for him,

and I think he has a higher floor than some of these other guys in addition to a comparably high ceiling. I'm honestly a little bit surprised we don't hear him in that number one conversation. That's my Warriors wild card out of nowhere. I think so too. If they're going to look for a high IQ guy, if they're going to roll the dice,

somebody with real upside, but who's also just a smart player who fits in with the other smart guys that they have. He'd be the one. You watch Hayes right now. He can make those cross-court passes off the dribble with accuracy. Pinpoint, bullseye to a corner

three-point shooter. LaMelo Ball can do that too, but there aren't a lot of guys that are teenagers that are going to enter the league with the ability to make that pass. He can already make those passes and many others at a high level. That's what Golden State looks for. It's guys who make quick, rapid decisions,

and they make the correct decisions on defense too in terms of rotations and communication. He does all that. And to me, that just makes a lot of sense for them at two, or if he falls, which he shouldn't, for a team like the Knicks at the eight. Plus, it would be fun to see Curry playing with another point guard like that.

It's something we've never really 100% seen, right? They've always had the Sean Livingston types or Jared Jack. But to actually see a real point guard who could go... Potentially, you play Curry, Klay, the real point guard. Curry and Klay are just firing off all these different screens.

I don't know. I would enjoy that. You have the Wizards at nine taking the Okongwu. Okongwu, yep. Onyeka Okongwu from USC. Big man. For me, if Killian Hayes is there at nine and they don't take him, that's a travesty.

I agree. I think that would be a bad job of them. And also Halliburton's another one where if like, why do I think John Wall's ever playing again? That's actually a team that might need a point guard. You know, we've talked about how there's a point guard glut all over the place. I don't know if John Wall's playing again. I want to get somebody that can set up Bradley Beal instead of doing every year they have these ish Smith types. Like why not actually get somebody you can develop? And even, you know,

if wall comes back, great. Now we have wall Beal and, and killing Hayes. And now we can go small and have, I think two bond. Okay. The future anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. We've seen it work. And I think for Washington, I interviewed the general manager, Tommy Shepard for a wizards article that was published in like July. And he told me on the record at the time, we have an opportunity with Beal and Wall,

two stars, to maybe take a swing and swing for the fences here with a guy that could pop as a superstar. And Killian Hayes fits that profile. I'm not sure Okongwu does. He mentioned they do want to prioritize Biggs as well. But Okongwu, maybe he does. He does prioritize bigs as well but Okongwu maybe he does he does have like we talked about with some other guys kind of a foundation good defender smart

player if he's able to pop and maximize his defense maybe there's some bam out of bio type of potential there he is a game that resembles him so that could be considered an upside pick too but for them, this pick is critical because they got to maximize that Beal wall core or else they could lose both of them, not just one of them.

I think it's so tough to correctly identify the Bam out of biotype when these drafts or these guys who was like, hey, this could be the ceiling. And you just don't know.

I do think there's one key thing with Bam, which was if you, you know, it was interesting reading some of the features the ceiling and you just don't know. I do think there's one key thing with Bam, which was it was interesting reading some of the features and some of the stuff people did about him during the playoffs. It's just like the guy's a maniac. He wants it more

than anybody. He was going to will himself to be a really good player. I think if you're taking one of those project guys, that piece has to be there. The piece of, I'm going to kill myself to be a really good NBA player. Otherwise we've seen these six, 10 dudes kind of come and go. Right. And you know, I'm like, oh man, so much potential and they never make it. It has to have that piece. You had a, the last team I want to talk about is

Phoenix at 10, because here's a team that if they hit this pick correctly and it's somebody who can play right away, they might be a playoff team, right? Like if they took, let's say they took Tyrell Terry here and he became a really fun rookie right away, a la Tyler Hero last year, somebody that can come off the bench, but also potentially close games. And Aiton keeps progressing like he did post-suspension. Shout out to Chris Vernon, who gets mad anytime people mention the PD suspension for DeAndre Aiton. And then you have that one free agent, mid-level, somebody 7 to 9 million range. I don't think they would get certain. Something like that. Yeah, Christian Wood. Somebody like that, in that range.

And that's a playoff team in my opinion. That would be one of the best eight teams in the West if Booker continues to look like this. So I think it's a weirdly important pick for them and really good chance for them to get somebody good. You know, after I hated their Cameron Johnson pick last

year when they took him 11th, I was wrong about that pick. You know, I had him ranked I think in the low 20s and he's a good player he's a really good player right away i wonder if they follow that logic again this season where like we have in the mock draft devin vasel going to them a young sophomore wing from florida state he's ready to contribute in some ways you know his body needs a lot of work physically i wonder if they end up going with one of those senior or upper class prospects who can come in physically and play right away because if they follow the same blueprint they did last year they're a team or maybe they end up taking somebody that most

people project to go in the 20s but has a greater certainty in terms of what they can do early on in their career in their career could they because they do feel pressure to win now with Devin Booker. They want to try to maximize this guy. He's a star. And I know we've talked about him on the pod before. He has continually gotten better every year. And maybe the more good players you put around him, the more he can do.

I mean, we just saw Jamal Murray and Donovan Mitchell pop in the postseason. I think Devin Booker has that in him if he's given the stage. Well, and there's also a real fear in the NBA. I mean, we should just, I'm fine talking about this. It's rumor hearsay stuff, but it's just a fact. Kentucky, World Wide West had a great relationship with John Calipari.

CA got multiple Kentucky guys, and there's a real fear in the league that the Knicks are going to become the Kentucky Pipeline team. Devin Booker is a great example of that, right? That's somebody that, even though he's on a big deal right now, at some point, if he wanted to move out of there,

the league's kind of watching the Kentucky factor with that team. And I think even Davis, if the Lakers hadn't won the title this year, who knows, right? Are we positive he would have stayed? I don't know. All the signs, all the dialogue was like,

yeah, LeBron and him, they love each other, but who knows what would have happened. So anyway. That Knicks thing is intriguing. It is intriguing because if they can change the culture there, why would they not be the next destination? If the Clippers and Lakers are occupied, why would the Knicks not? And the Nets are too. Why, why would they not be the next destination? If the Clippers and

Lakers are occupied, why would the Knicks not in the nets are too? Why would the Knicks not be next to be that star destination? Also, if, if you're the Kentucky pipeline team, that's a good thing because that's the one true pipeline we have right now. All this Kentucky guys know each other, like each other every year, they have top dudes. And also like booker had already talked about on i believe a podcast with d'angelo russell and carl anthony towns us three gonna team up someday together i believe it was russell who said that in the conversation but you know booker and cat are close friends those guys are tight and you know if minnesota isn't able to figure it out if phoenix isn't able to break through maybe maybe those two could find themselves

in a different destination someday in the distant future. They still got a lot of time, both those teams with their deals. And Kat's a CAA guy too. Look, all this stuff, follow the breadcrumbs. Rich Paul and Clutch, same thing. He goes and he signs Anthony Davis. He's like, this is done. Davis is going to the Lakers.

The agents carry a lot more sway than people think. Last thing, you had Celtics at 14. You had them taking RJ Hampton, which would be, I think, like the seventh guard with all-star promise, but who's raw Danny Ainge would have taken in the last 15 years, dating back to Gerald Green.

The worst one was J.R. Giddens. My dad's still recovering from that one. RJ Hampton, he had another one. He was in the New Zealand Breakers last year. I just want you to Gerald Green. The worst one was J.R. Giddens. My dad's still recovering from that one. R.J. Hampton, he had another one. He was in the New Zealand Breakers last year. I just want you to know something. If Tyrell Terry is here at 14 and the Celtics don't take him, I'm going to have to delete

Twitter because I don't trust myself. Actually, it's already deleted from my phone. I'm going to have to... I don't know what I'm going to do. Don't give me a mic. Don't give me any sort of forum. I'm going to have to I'm going to have to. I don't know what I'm going to do. I just don't give me a mic. Don't give me any sort of forum. I'll flip out. I'm glad

you're on the Tyrell Terry train. That's all I can say. I love his game. I'm glad you love him too. I have a couple more just names that I liked. Hold on. Oh, out on Cole Anthony. I'm intrigued by Max.

Out on Cole Anthony. Out on Cole Anthony. Chris Vernon just made a passionate case for him on today's podcast. Yeah. That's why Chris Vernon is a TV radio personality, not a GM. Tyrese Maxey.

There's real upside with him because of how competitive he is. I'm intrigued by him. Yeah, me too. I don't know. I honestly think it sounds like a cop-out, but what team he goes on will determine a lot of it for him.

There's some Kyle Lowry with his game. Yeah. I mean, maybe it takes a while for his offense to develop. Maybe he has to bounce around through teams. Who knows what's in store for him in the league. league but with his mindset he feels like the type of guy you'd want to bet on to maximize whatever he ends up being i'm in on him last question orlando calls the celtics and says mo bamba for one of your first rounders celtics have 14, 26, and 30.

Orlando is obviously hoping for 14. It's not happening. Could the Celtics get Mo Bamba for 26 and 30? Is that realistic? Because they liked him. I don't see why not. And you're still in on Mo Bamba. It's you and like three other people in the car

at this point on the bandwagon. It's broken down on the side of the highway. I'm not even sure Kevin Clark is on board anymore. Oh, he's not. No, but Mo Bamba, to me, he's the type of buy low I'd be going for. And we've seen this in NBA history

to mix success, to say the least, but like, you know, Darko got traded, Hashim Thabit got traded, Johnny Flynn got traded. Anytime a draft pickit got traded. Johnny Flynn got traded. Anytime a draft pick doesn't work, he wasn't on par with those guys' draft bust. But somebody always talks themselves into them. With him, it's like, what is he, like 21?

Yeah, but he's also, you know, he's 21, but he's also playing next to Vucevic and Aaron Gordon and all these other bigs and Kem Birch that they've had over the years there. It hasn't been a good developmental situation for him. We just talked about with Wiseman, put him in golden state. It's perfect for him for Bamba.

Orlando is one of the less than ideal situations. And I think, I think originally the magic probably had planned on trading Vucevic and having Bamba as their five and Gordon as a four, but Vucevic has gotten Bamba as their five and Gordon as a four, but Vucevic has gotten better himself and plans change. And if I'm the Celtics or another team in need of a five that can put wings and shooters around him and have him be a rim runner and a rim protector, I'd be going for him. That's a, that's a real buy low opportunity. Put him and Rob Williams together. Just put them

in the potential suite. Just stare at them and talk about how they're upside. One of them's going to pan out. Yeah. Look at those rolls. KOC, when's your next mock draft? We're like two weeks away. I believe we're going to do a mock every Tuesday leading up to the draft. So next Tuesday will be the next one.

Great stuff and good stuff on the mismatch with Verno. Enjoyable show on the Ringer NBA show. Good to see you as always. Likewise, Bill. Have a good day. All right. Thanks to CeCe Sabathian.

Thanks, Kevin O'Connor. If you're waiting for The Rewatchables Wednesday night, it's one of the greatest horror movies of all time. Stay tuned for that. And if you want to hear all of the old Rewatchables podcasts, you go to the Spotify archives and we have everything there. Everything for the last 60 days is available on all platforms. After that, the entire library, it's on Spotify. So there you go. See you Wednesday night on the rewatchables feed and see you here on Thursday.

Looking forward to it. I don't have I don't have I don't have