The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Blue-Plate-Special 70th Birthday Pod With Bill's Dad, Kevin Clark, and Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 301)

Episode Date: December 15, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by his dad for his first full podcast, to talk the best and worst of Boston sports (2:50). Then, The Ringer's Kevin Clark stops by to talk Jimmy G, the AFC playoffs, and growing up a tortured Orlando Magic fan (22:50). Finally, The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor calls in to discuss some of the trades that shaped this NBA season, Russell Westbrook's off-ball play, the trade deadline, and way-too early NBA Finals talk (54:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to go90.show slash BS. As always, we're brought to you by theringer.com, where usually I have a column every Friday. This week, I do not, but we have a lot of great stuff on there, including Star Wars stuff, best of 2017, a really great piece about Victor Oladipo that hopefully Kevin O'Connor can call in

and talk about a little bit later. And a whole bunch of stuff in the Ringer Podcast Network. We should also mention the JJ Reddick Podcast, which we launched a couple weeks ago. They have Carl Anthony Towns is on that one this week. The Rewatchables, we did one with Zodiac. Most important, Cousin Sal's Against All Odds podcast. He made me come on.

Super Dave Osborne was the guest. And it's the second hardest that I've laughed during a podcast, with the number one being when Brad Mulcahy was on Brad's podcast. So basically the two funniest podcasts I've ever been involved with were not mine. So it was a little bit of an ego blow, but Super Dave is just incredible. He's flat out incredible. I highly recommend listening to that one

if you want to have a couple laughs. He's one of a kind. Anyway, a bunch of good stuff coming up. First, Pearl Jam. All right, it's a Friday morning. My dad is in town. He just turned 70 a couple weeks ago. The host of the Blue Plate Special on the Ringer Podcast Network,

which we haven't actually launched yet. Still not a lot of sponsor interest. There's no reason to keep mentioning my age, by the way. Well, you turned 70. What do you want from me? We're going to have Kevin O'Connor. He's going to come on from the Ringer a little bit later to talk some hoops. And I may pull Kevin Clark from the ringer and from the ringer NFL show. It could be an all Kevin show coming up later, but wanted to talk about 2017 and also 70 years and also almost 50 years in Boston.

Right. 1969. Well, went to Holy Cross in 1965. So certainly in the Boston area. Massachusetts, 52 years. I don't want to ask you about the Crusaders because you're going to be politically correct about it and you won't actually give an answer.

I am very much hoping they leave that name alone oh okay yeah interesting yeah we were talking about in the car last night i always thought the crusader was just i never thought about it i always thought it was just a guy on a horse with the sword and we just crusaded for just well when i was at holy cross i really just thought it had to do with going forth and doing good deeds on behalf of people. Oh, that's a good interpretation. I never put any connection to the Inquisition or all the things that are coming out now. Are you going to like it when they're called the Worcester Hills in two years?

Because I think that's where we're headed. I'm not because one of the hardest things about going to Holy Cross is that you're in the city of Worcester. So I'm not going to like that connection. It's Anaheim without the Disney, without Disney. Let's talk about 2017 first. The year started, Nephew Kyle is here producing this actually.

We were all together in my house in February and the pats were down 28 to 3 at halftime and we all switched seats and i feel like that has not gotten enough attention but as like we were people talk about brady the people who are on the field i always feel like it was the people in that living room that really made a difference i would like some credit but i i think part of the problem was your nephew, Kyle, was sitting in the wrong seat. He was. And I think he was feeling himself a little bit too much. And finally we moved him, which was not easy.

So give me your top 10 Boston memories right now of just greatest games, your greatest wins. In any sport whatsoever? Yeah. We're talking and going back to the first title when you were carrying me into games when I was four. So 1974 Celtics. Going on there, all the, like your favorite ones just off the top of your head. Well, my two favorite Celtics seasons and titles, 1981, when we came back down three to one against Philadelphia. Yeah. That's probably number one.

Right. And certainly the 86 season, but that was different because really we never worried about Houston in the finals. We never worried about anybody. No, not really. So I'd say the 81 Celtics season, because to overcome a three one lead, it looked insurmountable, which segues me to probably my number one sports comeback memory of all time is obviously the 0-4 Sox. And we were there for 4-5. We went to 4-5.

We actually went to 3-4-5. I blocked out three. I forgot we were there. We were there. Saturday night. That was miserable. There was a constant to all three games. I blocked out three. I forgot we were there. We were there. Saturday night. That was miserable. There was a constant to all three games.

They all got over about 1.30 in the morning or 2 in the morning. Yeah. They had drizzling, freezing rain during all three games. I like how you've exaggerated that at 2 in the morning. I think only one of them was past like 1 in the morning. It felt like 2 in the morning. That's my memory. Remember, I'm 70 years old.

Yeah. But those, the two games that we won, I mean. The back-to-backers. The back-to-backers. I agree. That's my number one, too. Number one. Plus, there was that period where you wanted to leave, and I had to talk you into staying.

That's, again, revisionist history. You made me watch Dave Roberts in the tunnel. Although, we saw the steal from the tunnel. I wrote about this in my Red Sox book. we saw the steel from the tunnel. I wrote about this in my Red Sox book. We saw the steel on the TV. We never left. We were kind of, that was what I ended up writing about was it was like a classic Red Sox fan moment where we knew the game was over,

but we also were still holding on hope that the game wasn't over. And we were in this tunnel watching the game, but ready to leave. That's a classic way of watching the Red Sox until 2004. You're right. Yeah. I mean, you think about it.

I said this to Jack on Wednesday's podcast. If the Mike Stanton thing had happened in 2002 or 2002, Giancarlo Stanton, sorry, in 2002, 2003, we would have been catatonic for a month that the Yankees got this guy who had 59 homers last year and we didn't. And now it's like after the three world series and I, baseball in general, I don't think has feels quite as important as it was 15 years ago. But it's, it's nice to have that kind of stuff just roll off us now. If we hadn't won three titles in since 2004,

we'd be feeling very differently about the way that derrick jeter probably criminally gave away stanton to his former team the yankees yeah i was listening to uh my old friend dan levitard show the other day and he was trying to get rob manfred on the show the the baseball question. Oh, interesting. And he's just so upset. And he's like, Jeter just gutted baseball in South Florida. We've already been through this twice. And you promised us this wouldn't happen again. And now it's happening again.

Well, I wish he had gotten him on because for me, it equates to when David Stern vetoed the trades that were occurring. Yeah, when he was, the league owned the team that made the trade. And Manfred, I think, should have done the same thing on this Jeter giveaway. I watched Jeter in the stands when the Celtics played Miami the other night.

And nobody around him looked very happy that he was sitting in the stands. No, I agree. So. Yeah, he's basically a pariah. Yeah. But anyway, back to the- All right, back to- greatest ones i agree on the red sox i still feel like even though we didn't win the title in 87 the game when bird stole the ball um is well you mentioned 81 the sixers

coming back from 3-1 when we were there for game seven. That's my favorite basketball memory, even though that was the Eastern Finals. Like that's the happiest crowd I've ever been in. Happiest crowd, you and I walking out of there. Me dropping, of course, there's that element of right after the game, I dropped you off at my uncle, at your uncle Chuck's. Yeah.

Which was in retrospect, probably not a great thing to do, but. I think you had a date. I was getting dropped off at a seedy apartment in Austin. I had to go speak at a retirement dinner. But I remember leaving that game and that was the only time when nobody left. Everyone was just on the street celebrating like it was Mardi Gras or something. That was the happiest, the craziest game I think we ever went to was the Bird Steals the Ball. It was. happiest the craziest game i think we ever went to was the uh bird steals the ball it was and it was the most intense because that also had the lamb beer fight with parish and and that game

looked like it should have been over all this stuff yeah um plus you and i were never big isaiah thomas fans i know that you and he are friendlier now but let's admit that during the years that he played we really didn't care for him. And for him to throw away that ball was exciting. We hated Lambert the most. We did, yep. Lambert, that game when Parrish punched him, the crowd really willed it to happen.

I still feel like I take credit in that. Well, the other, and nothing happened to Parrish. No, he stayed in the game. He didn't even get thrown outish. No, he stayed in the game. He didn't even get thrown out of the game. He stayed in the game. Yeah. It was incredible. That was probably my favorite one.

And then just favorite TV experience was certainly the first Super Bowl victory for the Patriots. The first one. Yeah, the first one. We weren't together for that one. No, you were there alone. I wanted to go and somehow you didn't get me a ticket. I've always regretted not being there. And that's when you wrote that great article, Now I Can Die in Peace, in the fifth floor of our house.

No, no, no. You're mixing up games. That was a 70-year-old moment right there. Okay, okay. No, that article actually is the proudest I've ever been of anything I've written, is the Super Bowl 36 one, because I wrote half of it or two thirds of it. And then went out to Bourbon street and celebrated with my Pats fans friends and had like three or four hurricanes. And then came back and finished it Hunter Thompson style, which is the only time that's, uh,

it's still an article that people mentioned to me. The two, the two hardest ones i ever wrote were that one and the article after game five of the of the 2004 lcs that's because we were we were so cold and drained and and it was the game ended late yeah um the game ended the game ended uh i forget when but we just it just felt like we'd been up for two straight days and we were freezing and right so emotionally drained and then on top of it um we had another game the next day and it was like either i wrote the column that night or there was no reason to write it because by the time it went up the next day the game would have been like two hours away so it was like oh god i gotta stay till 5 30 in the morning and i was that was the hardest one i've written i that one still holds up i still i'm still proud of that one yeah um you should be the now i can die in peace one is probably

a little too little too rambling and long but i think being drunk may have been a problem with it because i remember waking up at like nine o'clock the next morning and um and kind of waking up being like what time is it then going oh i had i hinted at a column last night and then calling my editor i was like was that column already he's like yeah it was great yeah i'm like oh okay i had no idea well you know when that 81 uh philly celtics thing even though it's it's my best celtic, it's a little different, obviously, than the Red Sox in 04. That was the number one. Because that had the whole plot

with like both you and me and you're older than me, but just like, you know, this needs to happen before I die, basically. And the Celtics had won before and they're going to win again. The Red Sox just felt like it was never going to happen. The Super Bowl, the one that 36 that we inexplicably came back against uh oh the falcons the falcon the no the uh when we won

which one the one that we're getting our five super bowls mixed up the first one 36 against the rams Yeah, the Rams. Neither one of us ever expected that we were going to win that game. Well, so the one, the sneaky one that people forget now is the snow game because that was the game the Patriots had lost for my entire life. And, you know, it's just ironic what's happened

with the Pats over the last 17 years because they were the all-time sad sack franchise. It's like how people think of the Browns right now was what I grew up with. And we were just terrible and everything went wrong. And we had two good seasons and 28 bad ones, basically. And then to have that flip in the snow game, the game that we would have lost over the tuck roll,

it's like, oh man. And then Brady sucks the next year. And then it's it's like i remember that 10 weeks where brady was good and you could kind of see the whole the whole lot dotted line for what the decade was going to be like and then it flips on that call which is still a ridiculous call he definitely he definitely fumbled there's no question he fumbled i watched it recently because they seem, because I watched it this week because of the snow game in Buffalo and Ben and Terry missed the field goal. Yeah. So one of the stations showed missing that field goal last weekend and then him making the field goal when we played for the Patriots. Right.

And they were both extremely difficult. Fortunately, he made ours. The first one in the snow where the ball didn't go more than eight feet high. Right. And nobody blocked it somehow. I'll never understand that. I don't understand how one person would get a hand. But the sneaky part of that game and the one that I always argue with Lombardi about,

the Raiders, we never should have gotten the ball back in regulation. The Raiders, Charlie Gardner ran for like eight yards and it was second and two. And they just needed, they basically had three plays for two yards and the game's over. And somebody fell down on one of them and we stuffed them and it was fourth and one, and they just decided to punt. But the game, second and two, and you need three plays for two yards. You should go to the next round. Right, right. But it was just one of those games. And what was cool was that was the last game

for that stadium, which was the biggest piece of shit, worst structure in the history of probably East Coast sports. And it ended up being this joyous occasion where people are throwing snowballs. But that place had so many dark memories. Well, I don't think people can appreciate now 17 years later after this Patriots run, how many difficult,

terrible games we lost where we felt we should have won. I mean, we still, you and I still talk about the sugar, sugar bear Hamilton. Yeah. That, that's why I never I still talk about the Sugar Bear Hamilton. Yeah. That's why I never feel bad at the snow game. Yeah.

Because we got screwed in 1976. We were owed. But we lost, I mean, over and over again, we'd lose to Miami every year and we'd lose to Denver every year and we, the team just sucked. Right. And that's, I empathize with the Jets fans and the Browns fans because we've. The other nice thing in 2001 2001 when we won that game, the entire country liked us for winning that game.

Yeah. We were the underdogs. We came back against the greatest show on earth and look what's happened 17 years later. Well, it flipped within six years because then we're in Arizona six years later for your 60th birthday. Oh, gosh.

And we have the lead with two minutes left and then the ring gets taken away and we have all those Giants fans going crazy and you and I are, that's the fastest I've ever seen you move. You were like Randy Moss getting out of there. Well, all those Giants fans were coming down because they wanted to be part of the celebration.

We did not want to be part of the celebration. Well, that was not as bad as what happened the next morning. You had booked me on a flight, direct flight, not a direct flight, a flight that went from Arizona to New York to Boston. So, of course, who do you think was on my flight at 7 in the morning? A lot of Giants fans. And they had been up all night, and they were drunkenly singing in the plane,

and I'm the only Patriot fan there with a Patriot hat on. That was a terrible memory. Our two, our worst losses of all time. Yankees, Red Sox, 1978 playoff game. Yeah, it's popping out. Jim Rice warning track, all that stuff. I'm still haunted by it. I would say that one.

I would say the too many men in the ice game. I would say Bird missing the shot in the corner against the Lakers game 487 finals. And I would say does Super Bowl 42 against the Giants. That's my Mount Rushmore of most gutting losses. My order would put the Super Bowl certainly way ahead number one. Interesting. Yeah. Over the 78 playoff game. Yeah. Wow.

I mean, 18-0, we were making history that year. And there's a little FU at the Spygate. There was a little of that. I was there. I mean, it was a great 60th birthday present to be there. It was a great weekend. A lot of people sucking up to you.

That's true. That was in your heyday of ESPN celebrity. People loved me back then at ESPN. I would certainly always say Bill Simmons' dad. Before you were like, and I would certainly always say Bill Simmons' dad. You brag about it. Yeah. Because before you were like, yeah, that guy who got suspended, I'm his dad.

You know, we were there, I think we got there Wednesday. Yeah. I would say there was not one second during the five days we were there before the game where I gave any thought to the fact that we might lose that game. Not one second. I remember the night before being with my Pat's friends somewhere in Glendale, Arizona until 5.30 in the morning. I wasn't with you.

You weren't with me. You were asleep. But just talking about, it was a foregone conclusion. Like, yeah, we got to blow them out. We got to really send a message in this last game never occurring to us we would lose. Never. You felt it though, immediately.

It was like almost right away. It was like, oh man. Right away, the thing that worried me in that game was that they were getting to Brady. Our offensive line was not holding the middle. But that was number one by far. I'm surprised that was number one. Too many men on the ice was the game.

Now I've written about this and people thought I made it up, but you were actually an eyewitness. I cried so hard after Too Many Men on the Ice that I got a bloody nose all over the couch in your apartment and we had to flip the cushion on it. You did it. I actually got a bloody nose for like a half hour. I didn't

know how to console you. I was so upset. I hated the Canadians so much. Rick Middleton had scored with like five minutes left. I didn't know how to console you. I was so upset. I hated the Canadians so much. And we had the, we, uh, Rick Middleton had scored with like five minutes left. Well,

at first I wanted, that's what I love talking as much as everything. At first I wanted to console you. And then I was really upset cause you had blood all over my couch. You just gotten it. I think it was almost a new couch. As a new single guy, I had a new couch, blood all over it.

Couldn't console my, my young son. If anyone has a better story than having a bloody nose gusher for a half hour after a sports loss, I'd love to hear it. I was so mad. The combo, I think they were within like a few months. The 78 playoff game was October 78. And I think Too Many Men on the Ice was like May 1979. Plus my parents were getting divorced. I think it all just piled up on me. Well, the other thing- That's it.

They got a nervous breakdown. Neither one of us ever liked Guy Lafleur. Oh, and the freaking slap shot on Jill Gilbert. If I close my eyes, there's probably certain sporting moments I can see, visualize. Him lining up for that. I can see him lining up undeterred for that slop shot. I can see Bird missing that three-pointer. By an inch.

By an inch that should have won us the game. And you can see the Hail Mary for Brady DeMoss that he missed by like a half inch in the Giants game. And I can see the ball sticking against that awful guy's helmet. And Harrison not being able to get it off. So those are things I see when I close my eyes and go to bed at night. We're going to bring in Kevin Clark, who has no positive sports memories whatsoever because he's from Orlando.

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$200 off this package, complete protection for your home, handpicked by me. Go to simplisafebs.com, SimpliSafe with two I two eyes it's the holidays these systems will fly off the shelves grab one as soon as you can 200 off go to simply safe bs.com all right kevin clark is here from the ringer um one of the best nfl writers in the country and somebody who um is not old enough to remember when the patriots sucked how old are you in 2001 oh i was uh 14 oh you're old enough yeah no no not really not really because superbowl yeah no no one of my first the first superbowl i really got into was packers patriots right but the cowboys run i was aware of yeah but really packers patriots was like okay i know who

the players are i can identify these i was at that Packers Patriots Super Bowl. Yeah, you didn't take me. I didn't take you. I remember that. And I can still see that guy coming down because I was in that end zone and realizing the game is over. Kicking off to Desmond Howard was a mistake.

Kevin, unbiased perspective. Should we be coming to the grips with the fact that this is probably it for the Patriots as a good football team this season, this season, 40 year old Tom Brady, um, no Garoppolo now who is, is now become a franchise guy. I almost afraid to ask my dad about that. Um, not, we were doing the playoff scenarios yesterday. Every time I saw a team in San Francisco, I was like, that's a loss. And imagine thinking that six weeks ago.

They're not even, I think they're like one point favorites against Tennessee. I think Tennessee blows. I love Jimmy. And it almost seems too easy. But I think he's been been he's probably one of the best nine quarterbacks in the league right right now at the moment yes if you were making a list who would you take over him would you take mariotta over him at the moment no and we'll see that on sunday by the way james over him no no it's kind of amazing like i think watson and

wentz even though they're hurt i I would take over Jimmy. Yeah. Would you take Case Keenum over him? I'd have Garoppolo. I'm going to take Garoppolo in that spot. Yeah, there's not a lot of guys. So this Pats thing, we trade Garoppolo, who now looks like he's going to be really good. Brady looks old in the Miami game. Okay.

My theory on the Miami game. He's 7-9 in Miami, so it's a trend. It's a house of horrors. No Gronkowski, which I don't think people... You know, it was funny hearing the announcers not even really talk about it. I don't even know if Gruden really had a one-minute monologue about it.

We don't have Gronkowski. We can't run the ball. We don't have a 3rd-and-8 guy. You take out Gronkowski and Edelman, there's nowhere to go on any third and eight, which is why they weren't doing the third downs. But you and I talked about that game before the game. It was a meaningless game for us.

It was because the Pittsburgh game was what mattered. The Pittsburgh game is, you know, it doesn't matter what the records are right now. We beat Pittsburgh. We're in the driver's seat. And we own Pittsburgh. Our only concern going in that game was hopefully Brady didn't't get hurt right but from but like i didn't expect brain and cooks to get completely shut down yeah completely by some dude i had never really heard of some second

year random dude and this guy is like completely annihilating brain and cooks xavion howard pro bowl train to be rolling through. Yeah, no, it's, it's worrying, but I just think that it's, it's like you said,

Miami seems to be the anomaly of that entire, I mean, he's seven and nine. I mean, that's he, he became, he is the Miami dolphins when he's there. He's seven and nine.

That's what Miami dolphins are. Brady is there when he's there is seven and nine. Do you know that stadium is built on an Indian burial ground, by the way? Is it really? Yeah. That explains a lot of the kooky stuff stadium's built on an Indian burial ground, by the way? Is it really? Yeah. That explains a lot of the kooky stuff that's going on there.

I've always thought, I wrote in 2009 about the Clippers when they left Buffalo. Yeah. I always thought that was one of the reasons the Clippers curse kicked into it. Nothing normal has happened in that stadium. It's a terrible stadium.

It's a terrible place to see a football game. Horrible. So Kevin's from, oh wait, let's finish the passing really quickly Horrible. So Kevin's from, oh wait, let's finish the passing really quickly. Yeah. So you feel like as usual, they have a chance to win a Superbowl,

but I feel like there's two separate things. Could this be the last year of the Patriots run? Absolutely. But it's going to be a hell of a run. I think they're set up pretty well. Even if they lose this game, the worst case scenario, just playoff seating wise is they drop out of the bye.

And then the Jaguars have the number two seed. They're going to play maybe the Chiefs. And that actually, you might prefer that. Remember when they lost to Buffalo 31-0 and they pasted Buffalo 31-0 in 2003? You kind of get that symmetry again if you play the Chiefs in the first round. You get to crush them, avenge that loss. Then you go to Jacksonville. I understand playing Jacksonville is kind of weird with that defense,

but I'd rather play Jacksonville than the Steelers in the second round. I mean, it's, it's. Well, it seems like Fournette's hurt. Fournette's hurt. He's playing hurt, which is good for playing the Jaguars. On the other hand, their defense is the kind of defense that has given Brady trouble for the last 12 years. Boye and Ramsey are the two best cornerbacks in the NFL.

It's weird. Yeah. But they can also get a pass rush. Oh, yeah. That combo is dangerous for the Patriots. Yeah. I'm just saying it's not the end of the world if they drop out of the bye. I mean, Jacksonville.

Is dropping out of the bye really possible? Yes. It is possible if they. Am I just in denial? If they lose this game and the Jaguars win out, there's a scenario. For sure. Oh, my God. I was playing around.

I'm not the Picasso of the playoff machine because you're the Picasso of the trade machine. But the playoff machine, I'm not any sort of a notice. No, the trade machine. I couldn't call myself the Picasso of the playoff machine. I'm not going to infringe any turf. But I was playing around with the playoff machine coming up with different scenarios. And there is a scenario. So we'd have the same record as Jacksonville, but they'd have the tiebreaker. Yeah. They have a better conference record.

That's conference record. But I got to say, I, as much as we've made fun of Bortles, as quarterbacks keep going down, he's kind of ascended to, he's definitely like solid mediocre compared to 12 other quarterbacks. I'm excited to bet against him in the playoffs, but he's not a train wreck. Two straight weeks of 119 or higher quarterback rating at this point. Yeah. He's an NFL quarterback, which we couldn't say a couple months ago.

Well, I think the thing with him was he would have the fall apart play in a close game, which he was still doing up to a month ago and might do this weekend. But he's been avoiding those and he's been steering the ship. And the recipe is we've talked about all year is Trent Dilfer in 2000. Can you just be Trent Dilfer? Can you just not screw up? And that team is pretty good. But if Fournette's hurt, I don't think they have enough firepower to score in the playoffs. i i would guess the patriots make the super bowl just i mean i just don't know the the steelers defense is weird to me the joe hayden injury statistically was a much bigger deal than people think they were giving up they are giving up the most 50 uh yard touchdowns in the

nfl and almost all of them came after joeden's injury, which I think was in week eight. So I didn't know Joe Hayden was this important to the defense, but a lot of the shootouts that they've been in, whether that's against Brett Hundley or whatever, have been after that. I was just talking to Mays on the NFL show. We expect a shootout in this game. We talk about styles make fights in boxing. This is a style make fights thing.

This is going to be maybe a classic game. I think whoever plays or doesn't play in this game is going to have a significant impact. Like they have Hayden listed as questionable. Yep. So, and our two best pass rushers, Flowers and Vannoy, are listed as questionable. Branch is already out. Branch being out is a big deal

our defense our defense really right now if if all three of those guys are out it felt like Kenny and Drake could have run for 340 yards in that money again every time he had the ball I thought he was gonna break one yeah well plus we had linebackers on the outside

trying to defend him on the pass plays one of the things scary i think the weirdest thing about this season as a pats fan is is how they treated malcolm butler heading into the season and then how badly he's played yeah and i don't know what the correlation is and whether they were down on him because they saw a trend for him as a player that they didn't like or whether the way they treated him put him in a tailspin. But he was getting torched in that Miami game. I kind of think that Butler might be the best example of just a confidence guy the last couple years.

A guy who just gets that pick in the Super Bowl. He wasn't even, I don't think he was starting that game. He was inserted because of some other guys. He was a solid guy. He was inserted for that play. Yeah, exactly.'t think he was starting that game. He was inserted because of some other guys. He was a solid guy. He was inserted for that play. Yeah, exactly. And then he gets the interception. All of a sudden, he's got an offseason.

He's going to the Grammys. He's, you know, he's the celebrity. And he develops almost as a coincidence into one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL. And so when you had that happen, the key is just don't screw it up. Whatever he's thinking in his head, just keep it going. And then he gets into this weird off season where they're trying to train him in New Orleans.

And I think it got, I think maybe it got into his head a little bit. And he said, maybe I'm not the best cornerback in the NFL. Even worse though, the Gilmore contract. Yeah. That was rough.

Which we're not even sure about at this point. I mean, we're not sure of that, but then he was, Butler wants a contract. Then they're like, Hey, we gave, we gave Gil about at this point. I mean. We're not sure of that, but then he wants, Butler wants a contract. Then they're like, hey, we gave Gilmore all this money. $14 million this year. Then Butler's like, what the hell?

It made no sense when it happened. For them to lowball Butler, because I agree with what you're saying. His confidence was at an all-time high. Reward that confidence and keep it going. And he's not the same player this year. Which team are you the most afraid of, Dad? Pittsburgh, to be honest. Yeah, because I think the one thing we didn't talk about with Pittsburgh, that they could

just outscore the Pats. Yeah. They're also one of the few teams that knows that you have to punish Gronkowski during the game. Yeah. And it's like, if you're throwing the ball to him, we're hitting him really hard and we're going low on him or we're going high and you're going to have to think about it if you're sending him over the middle.

The only thing that losing their linebacker. Shazier, yeah. Who was their middle linebacker and I think gave Gronkowski a tough time. And would absolutely punish him. Yeah. Might help us. Obviously, it's not gonna hurt us

this weekend but yeah uh kev what do what do we know about the shazier thing because they've been so tight-lipped about it for an update yesterday tom said he's in good spirits um there's just not a lot of it's so bizarre there's not a lot of information about his physical status and that worries me a little bit yeah so where man so they if if he could move his legs and feet and walk i feel like they would have told us this would be my interpretation i feel like on a lot of this stuff i see it both ways because i feel like a lot of this stuff with you know this is not as similar to kevin everett and buffalo but we knew you know a couple days after we knew that he was he was never going to walk again so i know, this is not as similar to Kevin Everett in Buffalo, but we knew, you know, a couple of days after we knew that he was never going to walk again. So I feel like-

This is 11 days. Yeah, it's a holding pattern, I guess, on that. We were talking about the MVP. And do you feel like Brady has had an MVP season? Well- Because I don't. If you and I were doing this podcast two weeks ago, I would have said. You said he's in the conversation or would you have said he was an

MVP? I would have said he and Wentz were probably back going to, going to battle out for the MVP. Yeah. His last, you know, and, and they're certainly in Boston, people are worried about his Achilles and I know Brady's downplaying the right Achilles injury. He's rubbing it with avocados every day. Whatever he's doing, the last two weeks. Viability exercises. I mean, until the last two weeks, he looked like a 30-year-old quarterback. Now he looks like a 40-year-old quarterback.

That's the problem, though. When you're 40, you're one hit away from all of a sudden you feel like you're 40. Yeah. But I think I was telling young Kevin here here yesterday we were walking to go get a coffee and i was saying i think antonio brown's going to win the mvp because it's the best narrative because the narrative we hit points sometimes when we're not sure who the mvp is where the narrative wins the mvp so last year in the n, Westbrook became the narrative and that won him the MVP. And in retrospect, it was ludicrous.

This year, since there's no clear MVP, I think over the last 10 days of the season, it will turn into, well, why can't a wide receiver win the MVP? Well, who's done more for their team than Antonio Brown? And that will become its own thing. I think Monday morning we'll know a lot more. I think Sunday. Well, you know he's going to torch us

maybe I don't know one of the things about the Steelers that should concern you guys is the Steelers are vaguely Belichick proof in the sense that Belichick is going to take away what the Steelers do best maybe that's Antonio Brown he sells out to stop Antonio Brown but then he still have Le'Veon Bell he still have Martavis Bryant

he still have Juju and so that should worry Patriots fans a lot. Just the fact that how many options they have once they take Brown away. I think Belichick will, and he did it last year, will sell out to stop Brown. And if Brown can break through that and get 150 and two touchdowns, he's the MVP. If he gets 42 yards. So you think we double him? I think he might.

And then I think that, but then that determines, I think, because it's a narrative award, I think that will determine whether or not he's going to be the front or the MVP come Monday morning. See, the way we played him, I'm going to say two years ago, early in the season was we put Butler on him single and let him get his stats. And they shut down Bell or tried to.

And they were just like, all right, Brown, you're getting 11 catches for 150 yards. Butler actually played great against him. He was still making catches. But it gets back to- I don't know if he can double Brown. I don't know. He's so shifty. I know that-

I'm more worried about, I give him his stats. I'm more, if Bell has a good game, then we're done. Right. Right. And I think that in a weird way, Bell and Brown have switched the places as far as significance in that offense. I think two years ago, Bell was the unquestioned, and even last year, Bell was the most talented player.

Bell is averaging 3.9 yards per carry at this point. I know his value in the passing game cannot be overstated, but I mean, Brown is the guy. But don't you think he's averaging 3.9 because Roethlisberger has been so up and down this year? Teams are like, beat us. They're almost giving him the boardles. I do think there's part of that,

but I just, I mean, Antonio Brown is a transcendent player. And I think Sunday- I think he's going to end up being the MVP. I think they're going to double him. I think they're going to probably put a safety over him. But people forget that when we did that last year, Bell went out in the first quarter. Yeah.

Right. And it seems like nobody remembers that Bell was not a factor only because he wasn't playing. I think we lucked out last year. Pat's favored by three. Who do you pick? Patats favored by three, who do you pick? Pats favored by three doesn't, I can't understand that line.

We beat the Steelers all the time. I would never pick against the Pats. Pats on a back-to-back loss, potentially, which they never lose back-to-back. I just hope Vinard plays. I hope Flowers plays. And I hope that whatever scheme he comes up with to stop Brown,

I'm willing to do that and see if Ratzberger can go with his other targets. I predict that the line will end up at Pats by two and a half. This does not feel like a three-point game. Who do you like, Hef? Patriots. Patriots, no matter, three or two and a half.

Gronk coming back. Yeah. I, the Tiger. I think Patriots three is fine. We've seen Belichick do this a million times over the years. Sometimes he does the Milton Berle, pulls just enough out to win when he has another big game coming. And in that Miami game, it seemed like they were trying to sneak by.

Brady was getting rid of the ball over getting hit over and over again, which either means he's hurt or he just wanted to get through the game. And it was like they were just kind of trying to sneak it out. Yeah. Which makes me think they saved some stuff for this week. There was no chicanery last week. My favorite Joel Solomon conspiracy theory of this year was that- solomon works for the ringers as steelers fan was that they were going to throw this game so that bell the patriots are going to throw this game so belichick we wouldn't know how he'd defend

those guys in the afc championship that they would throw the steelers game yeah just so you never see the defense that was coming out in the afc championship game that's probably not going to happen except the see that that doesn't make sense to me because we'd have- On a lot of levels it doesn't make sense. Yeah, and we'd have the game at home. Right. Wait, hold on. We got to talk about QB1 from my friend Peter Berg, the creator of Friday Night Lights.

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Go to go90.show.bs. So Kevin grew up in Orlando. You can say you finally have met somebody who grew up in Orlando. I worry for somebody who grows up in Orlando. What football team do they root for? No pro team. Okay. The city of Orlando goes with- That's like being neglected.

Tell my dad the story of how we met. Oh, we were in, I was at the Jacksonville Super Bowl as a fan. Pat's Eagles. And we were, we happened to be in the Patriots Hotel. And Bill, I was, I don't even remember how old, 15, 16 years old. And I was in the lobby and I saw Bill Simmons, who was my favorite writer on the planet.

And I stopped him and he was extremely nice. He asked for my name. I didn't know that story. I met young Kevin. I had no recollection of it, obviously, all these years later. You don't? What? What? what were you sober it was pretty i'm sure it was early in the night it was like 8 30 probably something like that i wouldn't have been out that late i was in high school with my mom yeah you're right then i saw him later at four in the morning at the maxim party

yeah what's going on is this kid a child they They weren't checking IDs. So he's a tortured magic fan. Oh my. With a lot of Dwight Howard things to work through. I will say that among my hundred bad memories was that one year that Orlando beat us in the playoffs. In game seven. Yeah. Yep. In 09.

Yeah. Yep. And that was a top 10 Orlando moment. It really was. It might have been the top like five or six. It was just draining threes. So it's a top 10 Orlando moment. It's probably my 132nd worst Boston memory.

Didn't we also shut down the Boston Garden? Didn't the Magic? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we have- We both went to that game. We were there.

We were there. The thing about that one is we gave them kind of a, it was a little scare, the early Shaq Penny teams. Yeah. I remember that. But yeah, no, that, that, that game in Boston was amazing. I mean, just draining threes. My memory was Garnett didn't play though, right?

He was out that entire season. I mean, really. Bill, Bill brings this up quite a bit actually. Well, I would bring it up immediately. Well, you know, Kevin still feels like the 2009 finals against the Lakers, there's like two plays that flipped the winner. There were. There were.

There were. It's actually a really good corner, and I subscribe to it because I hate the Lakers. Game one was a sunk cost. Throw it out. Lakers win. Game two, Courtney Lee misses the layup. Misses the alley-oop play. They lose in overtime. You would have won game two in la and had three four five in orlando we won game three yeah handily game four you're up three up three we do a number of things 15

seconds including dwight howard misses two free throws right that would have put you at five we don't foul derrick fisher who then hits a three not only does he hit a three but he's he's going up the court i think and jameer nelson's playing 17 feet should not have been in the series right and he was hurt he's been hurt since january and they decided and he starts practicing they said it was always like the well if they get deep into the playoffs maybe so he starts randomly practicing in june and we insert him i think in the second quarter of game one of the finals we had a nice little anti-point guard thing because ray for allston was playing and so the point was to just ignore ray for allston so hito turkalu was handling the ball richard lewis was handling

the ball great ray for allston love being ignored completely insane for allston and so there were points of of of the early series where Hito was just playing point guard and it was a great matchup problem. It was exactly what the modern NBA

has become where it's just like we're just draining threes. We don't care about traditional positions. Who took more PDs? The 09 Magic or Drago in Rocky IV?

If you had to guess. The Bash Brother A's. I'm giving you Drago against the field. There's some issues there. Some field. There's some issues there. Some questions? There's some issues there. But the 09 Magic, there's three games in the first four that they should have won.

And everyone so badly wanted the Kobe Bryant was awesome finals. And he really wasn't awesome. Well, that was also the year of the- He wasn't that good in the finals. That was the year of the Kobe LeBron puppet commercial. It's, oh, Kobe. And then even in game when they had the clincher, he took a ton of shots and he could never totally get going.

It's, oh, Kobe, he's laying it down. It's like, no, he's not. It was terrible. This series could totally be 2-2 or 3-1 Orlando. It was terrible. Well, you know, it's kind of funny. Derek Fisher plays a role in that 0-9 series. And then a year later, you and I are game seven,

Staples Center. Yeah. Celtics look like they're going to win. Well, Perkins gets hurt in game six. Yeah, but Derek Fisher made a huge three in the last two minutes of that game. So did Artest, which is the one I'll never get over. Because the ball goes around to Artest

with like a minute left. And it was right, they'd gotten an offensive rebound because Gazal was just going over everyone's back for offensive rebounds. But then the ball swings to Artest. Everyone in the crowd, you can vouch for this. All the Laker fans are like, no! And he starts firing up a terrible three and it goes in. And it was like, all right, we're not destined to win this.

That's certainly on my list of worst 12 sports moments. We didn't love that team. That was a frustrating team. I don't feel like that was one of my... I liked that team. I didn't love it. Doc Rivers was so frustrating. It was hard though because I think we disliked the Lakers.

It was almost like losing the Lakers was worse than winning. I feel very badly though for Kevin because I'm thinking of like my 100 worst sports moments and all of his sports frustrations are focused on the 09 Orlando basketball series. It's all piled into, well, and then some Dwight Howard. Yeah, Dwight Howard leaving. I think therapy would help.

The 2010 Magic were equally frustrating. The ones that lost to the Celtics. Oh, that's right, with Vince Carter. Yeah. Do you think Vince Carter's a Hall of Famer? No. Yeah. I'm going to tell you something.

He's not going in as a Magic. He's wrapping around the Magic. He was the last chess piece. Vince Carter. We got Vince Sanity. We also got Ryan Anderson in that trade, which he ended up being the best player in that trade. God. Yeah, there's no way you should have lost in 2010.

No. That was Dwight complicated career. I mean, he's one of those guys that, and we're so stat obsessed now with NBA and everybody breaks down all these different things. And it's like, you look at Dwight Howard and there's a statistical case that there is no

question. He is the best center since Shaq. It's a, you, it's an unassailable statistical case. And yet we were all there and it's like, would you, would you want it? Would you want it Dwight Howard for those 12 years? Well, look at how many teams he's been on. Yeah. And how many teams were happy to get rid of them. And then like the way he handled the Orlando exit when he changed his mind and then he wanted to stay. And he just was one of the most immature superstars I think we've had in the league. But you've had, we were, what was our joke about? Who was the, who was the net?

We were talking about the perfect. Oh, it was Lonzo. You ended up not getting him. We were saying how Lonzo would have been the perfect magic. The perfect guy who would have gone to the Lakers within four years. The magic history is we get these choice draft picks and then they leave us i mean they've had some incredible one thing i will say about being a magic fan is you know it's a small town i lived a mile and a half from the arena and i did get to see a lot of amazing players throughout you know

shack penny grant hill trace mcgrady i mean you, it hasn't been, it's not the Bucs here, you know? Well, you, the Grant Hill, T-Mac combo. Yeah. I think should have, that could have played out 19 different ways. And scenario 19, worst case scenario was how it played out, where he just gets hurt immediately. Right. And then they get frustrated with T-Mac and give him away in a shitty trade.

And then that's it. You have neither. But that was one of the, this whole super team thing, that was a super team situation. And they could have gotten Tim Duncan. Yeah. He changed his mind. Everyone loves this Greg Popovich thing.

I like Greg Popovich. But there's a story that is told about Tim Duncan that he was ready to sign with Orlando, and Pop called him and said, Tim, you don't want to go to Orlando. It's a cultural wasteland there. Like San Antonio? That's what I said. It's like, wait a second here.

This is in Paris, 1924 here. It's San Antonio. I've been to the Riverwalk. Pop definitely Jedi mind-tricked him. I was in San Antonio once. We had to go to Toby Keith's Steakhouse once San Antonio's a rough hang Orlando

You got some decent restaurants Have you been to Orlando? Oh before we go Kevin raised this question in Slack Daniel Day-Lewis Good hang or bad hang? What? What?

Do you think he would be if would daniel day lewis be a fun guy to to hang out with and have a dinner with oh uh he wouldn't be on my list no but can i give you some some caveats okay irish irish people are fun i'm% Irish. I get to say that. Yeah. I'm Irish. Maybe be like, oh, I'll have a McCallan. Yeah. And he might put a couple in him, start telling acting stories. Yeah.

Or it might just be completely serious and just a rough hang. So Jason Concepcion, who with me innovated the tough hang gimmick here. To me, it's one of the best untapped ringer gimmicks that we have. We're doing it. It's happening. Good hang or tough hang. It's going to happen with Jason and I. I love it.

Jason, Brian Curtis, and I were on a porch over there in the commissary for 30 minutes just going through rock tough hangs. So like the Eagles. Who in the Eagles is a tough hang? Oh, Henley, I think, is the worst hang of all time. Yeah, we had a very long discussion that will one day be made public. Glenn Frey, great hang. Yeah.

So Jason's caveat here is, wouldn't it depend with Daniel Day-Lewis what role he was preparing for? Oh, so if he's coming to be Abe Lincoln. Yeah, his rough hang. Pre-Bill the Butcher in Gangs of New York, rough hang. But, you know, I mean, there's certain this dressmaker movie, Phantom Thread, maybe he's an interesting hang. Because he gets so into it. You got to see the movie. I'm going to say bad hang before I was preparing for it.

The guy in Phantom Thread is like a lunatic. Great hang or tough hang is, I'm greenlighting that. Let's streamline it for 2018. I think it's one of our best ideas. Phantom Threads like a lunatic. Great hang or tough hang is, I'm greenlighting that. Let's, let's, let's streamline it for 2018. I think it's one of our best ideas. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it is, has endless possibilities. Aaron Rodgers, great hang or bad hang?

Great hang. Okay. Great hang. Tom Brady? This is an interesting one. Seems like a bad hang. Everyone who's hung with them says good hang. I think if Edelman likes to hang out with Brady, he's probably a good hang. Yeah. I mean, put this way. If you're going to the Kentucky Derby every year, you're a good hang. Yeah. If that's like one of your rituals, because I think the Kentucky Derby every year, you're a good hang. Yeah. If that's like one of your rituals, because I think the Kentucky Derby is probably the most fun thing to go to.

Well, the other element you could throw in, good hang by himself, bad hang if he brings his wife along. Oh, Jesus. Oh my God, the Giselle shots. My dad's still mad at some of the post-Giants Super Bowl. Post-Giants Super Bowl. Yeah, yeah. I get it.

We're not sure she represents our beloved five-time champion, New England Patriots, well all the time. Well, that could be a whole other gimmick. Don't start storylines. No spouses should start storylines with our beloved five-time champs. But you could extend your good hang, bad hang into if he brought his wife along or she brought her husband along. Right. The couple's date angle is really interesting.

Belichick, good hang or bad hang? By himself, good hang. If he brings Linda Holiday, I don't want to be in the room. Wow, these are the hottest takes. I feel like we have a third permanent cast member of Tough Hang here, right? Kevin Clark, what did you write today? I wrote about the best playoff scenarios humanly possible.

Okay. Thanks for coming on. Oh, and we forgot about Slow News Day every Wednesday? Every Wednesday it comes up, including next week. Guillermo from JKL was on? Guillermo from Jimmy Kimmel Live, who thought the name of the show was Fake News Day. Yeah.

Which maybe it should be. And then Ringer NFL Show Tuesdays at 5. Ringer NFL Show coming later today. Thanks for coming on. Anytime. We're going to call Kevin O'Connor, but first, Jalen and I once wore ugly Christmas sweaters on NBA Countdown on Christmas Day 2012.

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You'll have it in time for your ugly Christmas sweater party or even for Christmas itself. Go to tipsyelves.com. T-I-P-S-Y-E-L-V-E-S.com. Enter my code BS at checkout to get 20% site-wide discount. All right, on the line right now, the Ringers' Kevin O'Connor wrote an awesome piece this week about Victor Oladipo, one of the hosts of the Ringer NBA podcast, Ringer NBA show.

And still in Boston, unlike my dad, who's here in LA. But let's talk about the Oladipo thing first, because I think the fascinating thing about that trade, and I thought it was a terrible trade. I know my dad was upset about it because we didn't get Paul George. But Oladipo had already been transforming his body, which you laid out in that piece. And even before the Pacers made that trade, he had turned himself into an athletic specimen and he was already a really good athlete. Do you think Indiana knew that he had transformed his body that way and that was one of the reasons they made the trade? You know, I think that's kind of what got overlooked.

And I do think they must have had at least some idea of what he was doing that summer because he went to the extreme. I mean, as a story detail, not just his body, but the steps he took with improving his game. There must have been some hint that a leap was coming right but but at the same time like i feel like looking back at that i mean i was dead wrong about that deal as it happened as like a ton of people were and i think the situation always overlooked too like it goes beyond the body changes and and and the changes he made to his game like he got into a great situation as well. I think people overlook more than anything else in sports situations when they think about assets and with trades. And I wrote a big Westbrook piece last spring.

And in that piece was talking about how bad Westbrook was for Oladipo and how it was such a dangerous part of his MVP case where Oladipo is basically just standing there and he's completely useless on most Westbrook plays. And then occasionally Westbrook would be like, okay, now it's your turn to make a play and would throw him the ball. And now Oladipo had to do something. And the one time he gets the ball and he was just used so poorly. And then Sabonis who you and I both liked in college and my dad liked to gets recast as the stretch for when he's a center. And, you know, I think Pritchard should get a lot of credit. And I certainly wasn't giving him last summer for at

least looking at those two guys and being like, I think in a different offense, I think these guys might be assets, but the Oladipo part of him transforming his body, man, I mean, I guess we have to, I guess GMs really have to start looking at this stuff April, May, June and being like, man, who's taking basketball seriously? The Paul George thing though is fascinating to me because if the Celtics get Paul George,

which they thought they would, dad, we don't have Kyrie Irving. Right. And Kevin, I think you and I argued about this on my podcast. And I was saying I ranked it Kyrie, Paul George, Jimmy Butler. And you had it ranked. What was your ranking? Paul George, Kyrie, Jimmy Butler, or Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Kyrie?

I know Kyrie was first or second. I know Jimmy Butler was third. Kyrie was first or second i know kairi was first or second yeah yeah that's what it was yeah one of the two yeah yeah um but dad if i told you in july we're better off with kairi irving than paul george would you have believed it i think i would have believed it yeah yeah i think i would have because we couldn't stop Kyrie. Well, because we needed... Well, the unknown there is the Isaiah Thomas piece. Yeah. I mean, we certainly didn't need Kyrie Irving if we were going to keep Isaiah Thomas. So we certainly didn't forecast a trade between Boston and Cleveland.

Right. So it's kind of hard to go back and think about having Kyrie join us if Isaiah was still going to be there. And yet we did that trade scenarios podcast for Kyrie. And Boston was always the most logical trade of everyone who was on the table. And the caveat was, but they'll never actually trade. These guys are competing for a title. Right. And then they actually made the trade and you know i think you need so much luck with this stuff where you have like you look at the celtics danny ange looks like

a genius right now because the kairi trade was amazing the tatum trade's amazing um the kg trade was great the rondo trade was great he's made all these great trades but then there are all these what-ifs right kevin like they almost traded two first round picks for robert swift one or al jefferson almost traded four for the pick used on frank kaminsky for just they wanted justice winslow right that's that's another with that one that's a classic sliding doors justice winslow who i like first of all would have been the wrong guy because they poor zingas would have been there at number four and they would have taken Justice Winslow over Porzingis.

And they were ready to do it. If they went all the way up to three. If they went all the way up to three or four, you mean. I meant the ninth pick when he was slipping to Charlotte and Charlotte took Frank Kaminsky instead. But there were two versions of that trade because initially they were trying to get to four and the Knicks were going to move back to nine.

And if they had gotten four, they were going to take Winslow. And if they had taken Winslow over Porzingis, Danny wouldn't have a job right now. Right. But then you look at what happened with the Paul George trade. Who do we think they would have given up in that Paul George trade? It probably would have been the Tatum pick or would have been the Brooklyn pick the following year. Do we know?

I don't know if we know exactly, but are we judging Paul George, the Oklahoma City version, because it's like with Oladipo, you have to project him into what he would be in Boston. I think he was doing a lot more things differently there than he currently is in Oklahoma City. I mean, it's like if Kyrie had went to Phoenix instead or something like that. Oh, I'm not out on Paul George at all. I'm thinking of the alternate universe

where they just end up with Paul George instead of Kyrie. And if they end up with Paul George, but keep Tatum and keep Jalen Brown and have these three, six, eight guys, but no Kyrie, it's a different team and it's not as good, but it's also a really interesting team. And I actually think Paul George is now undervalued with the way... Dad, how much have you watched Paul George's here? Probably not a lot. No, I've watched him a lot and it gets me back to, I really enjoy the Oladipo article, but I was also thinking what you had phrased earlier that on OKC, he was useless because he would rarely get the ball. And like you said, it was when Westbrook would give it up. And now he reminds me a little bit what's happened with Kyrie Irving. I mean,

Oladipo was playing second fiddle to Westbrook. Kyrie Irving was playing second fiddle to LeBron James. And now they're in different roles with different teams, different expectations. And in each case, they're the guy. And then you see what happened with George and Carmelo Anthony joining Westbrook. Suddenly, nothing's jiving. You go back to a year ago, nothing was jiving with Oladipo. And it must be just impossible to play with Westbrook.

I mean, he controls the ball so much. There's been a lot of stuff on the internet. Kevin can speak to this because he loves this stuff. He loves this stuff of Westbrook, how useless he is when he doesn't have the ball. Do you ever see him changing? Like one of the things I've been the most impressed with Kyrie, which I thought was in there

just from watching him in the finals and the playoffs and in person, all that stuff, but has gone to another level in the Celtics, is how smart he is when he doesn't have the ball and the back cuts he does with Horford and the way he moves. And he's always involved in the play, even if he doesn't have the ball and Westbrook's the opposite. Is it too many bad habits at this point, Kevin, or is it fixable? I think it's a long list of bad habits.

And the one thing I've read online is you know maybe maybe Westbrook hasn't been kind of pushed to play off ball it's like no of course he's been asked to play off ball he's been asked by all his coaches I'm sure it's been pushed by trainers as well it's something that ultimately from what I understand is like I think he needs to really commit to doing that you look at the numbers with you look at the film with how other point guards screen off ball how they move off ball to really make themselves open to get themselves open and westbrook just kind of stands around between the three-point line and the half court really doing absolutely nothing he's not necessarily a threat

out there at all and right and that's where it hurts the rest of the team it's a domino effect so like you mentioned earlier with oladipo where they just throw the ball to him and that's it well the well the floor is not spaced in oklahoma city because they were playing two bigs last year floor is not spaced because they have robertson and westbrook really aren't much of threats off ball so it's like the situation can be so much better if it all starts with westbrook really committing off ball if he makes himself just as much of a threat off ball as he as he is with on ball i i think he really elevates his game to a whole new level more so than he already is because he is great right like i mean

we knock him a lot but he is a great player but and i think because of his greatness it's not unfair to ask for more from him because it's there so there's so much room to improve off ball he's certainly he's certainly one of the most interesting nba stars of my lifetime in that his strengths are so strong and his weaknesses are so weak and it's just this package of you know on the one hand he plays with this ferocity and he's he's just an unbelievable competitor and then the other hand he plays with this ferocity and he's, he's just an unbelievable competitor. And then the other hand, he just checks out during plays and he's doing both things at the same time. He he's chasing stats,

which is my least favorite thing that any NBA player can do. I don't think, I just don't think, I think if you care about your stats more than what the result of the game is, that's insane. But on the other hand, he's such a competitor. He's so relentless. He never stops. And it's just this constant balance of, I don't like this, but I like this. I wouldn't want to play with him, but yet he gives you a better chance

to win than almost anyone in the league. And you're just going back and forth all the time on him. I personally would not want to play with him. I would much rather play with 10 other point guards, but I can also see the case for wanting to play with them. Would you want to play with them, Dad? Well, if you watch Carmelo and Paul George's body language when they're out on the court, I don't think they want to play with him. I think they're good friends, I guess.

Yeah. And they like him off the court, but I don't think they're enjoying their experience in OKC. Is Carmelo salvageable, KOC? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'm not giving up on Carmelo yet. I'm not. I realize I might die on this hill alone. No, I'm still on there. You are? I feel like I'm alone. No, I'm on there, but I'm out on there. You are? I'm on there, but I feel like I'm alone. No, I'm on there, but I'm out of supplies. I'm walking down the hill right now.

My dad's walking down the hill. I'm on the hill. I have no supplies left. Yeah. Team USA Carmelo, right? Olympics mellow still gives me hope where if this Oklahoma City situation can get right, I mean, whether it's this season or these guys hang around for you know another season if it gets right i just see carmelo in a situation where he's getting more open shots more easy shots than he ever did if that move if that ball gets moving but you don't

know if it can you don't expect paul george to be there next year do you i don't i don't think there's any way no so now you're left with Westbrook and Carmelo Anthony? Well, here... If Carmelo stays, even. Even, yeah. They have one chance, OKC, to salvage this over the next month. And it's going to come down to Westbrook just playing better. I hate to just be boring about it, but he's not playing well.

He's not playing well offensively. And it's either they have to go all in with last year's model and just be like, this is your team, shoot 30 times a game, everyone else will stand around. Or he has to play better as a facilitator slash whatever. But right now they're in no man's land. And the real part, which I wrote about last week, and I suggested a Steven Adams trade that made all the OKC fans mad, but they're like 20, what is it? $24 million luxury tax bill they're looking at. And that team has shown no history of spending that kind of money. So I can't imagine they're not going to trade Paul George. If in seven, eight weeks, they're still a 500 team with no chance to win the title. They're not going to beat the Warriors. They're not going to trade Paul George if in seven, eight weeks, there's still a 500 team with no chance to win the title.

They're not going to beat the Warriors. They're not going to beat the Rockets. The Rockets would blow them off the court. So why would you keep Paul George? He's not going to stay. So I think they have to trade him. And I think that's a way bigger story than people are giving it credit for right now. That guy's not going to be on the OKC in two months.

What do you think kfc i i think i think you know before you know it comes to that point where like you know you're thinking about seriously trading george someone needs to get through to westbrook and i don't know if it's possible but i don't know if billy donovan hasn't been able to do it if other coaches haven't been able to do it but there there someone needs to get through to westbrook that if you are better off ball it helps you it helps your team right i think it helps everything on that roster it helps billy donovan be able to really i think install the the ball movement type of system he wants there's like there's little glimpses of it we see certain sets they run of when they move the ball but there's nothing consistent like if westbrook

commits to really evolving everything changes i mean we're talking about oklahoma city maybe trading george right now and mid-december but a month from now or a month and a half from now right before the eve of the trade deadline things could look different than it just it does need to start with westbrook just like it needs to start with the star player on every team lebron set the tone for the cavaliers once he started defending. Everybody else really started hustling, playing hard on that end of the floor. If Westbrook commits, I think everything else starts to fall in line behind him because there is talent on that team. Do you think Paul George is good enough to be the facilitator for them on offense for most of the time with Westbrook playing off the ball in a scenario

where they could actually compete with Houston and Golden State in a playoff series? I think those teams are on another level, so no, but I think he can bring them a lot closer. I think they can close the gap significantly. Yeah. The reality is they're screwed because Houston, you called it credit to Kevin. He was saying he thought, oh, he thought if Chris Paul was healthy, Houston was going to be unstoppable for a lot of different reasons, but mainly because at some point Harden or Paul are on the court for

48 minutes. They always have a world-class point guard. And it's like, nobody's going to be able to, you're not going to be able to keep up with that for 48 minutes. They're better than I thought. I'm not positive Chris Paul can stay healthy. Have you watched Houston, Dad? I've watched them. I think they could actually beat Golden State. I really do.

I think they're in the conversation now. I'd be really hesitant though. It's only December and Chris Paul has at least two more injuries coming up between now and May. It's year 13 for him. But I think the ceiling of that team and what it would have to take to beat a team that's as loaded as Golden State, it's going to be math. It's going to be a team that shoots 45 threes and makes between 18 to 20 of them four times in a seven-game series. Right, Kevin?

I think it's like Maury said last year. It's exactly that, where the variance of their shooting gives them a chance at those super teams like the Warriors. So I think the fact that you have two superstars now, yeah, that helps as well, but their three-point shooting,

the high variance of that is what I think really gives them a chance. And if you play it out, if you play out a seven-game series and they're at full strength harden will have one game that he wins by himself right so you need three other games where everybody just makes shots and i'll tell you their crunch time their crunch time lineup is a lineup that makes sense to me. Whereas I look at OKC's lineup and, you know, it's like Roberson's out there and Adams, two guys who are complete non-threats. When the Celts played them, Dad,

you wanted Roberson to shoot every time. Please shoot. We're leaving wide open. Please take one. And there was a point at the end of that game where Robinson took the three from the corner, and he made it. Yeah.

But we were all shocked that he made it. Yeah. I mean, we still pulled the game out. But I just don't think—I don't see George being there after the trade deadline. I think that team is going to readjust. I don't know where he'll go, though, because any team taking George at the trade deadline, probably in the back of their mind is thinking,

this is a pure rental. This guy knows where he's going next year. KFC, what can they get for him? What's a realistic trade that would keep them competitive this year, but also make sense for the team that acquires Paul George. I was just thinking about that. I talked about this recently with someone on Twitter, where it's like, if you're Oklahoma City

and there are no bidders because everybody's worried that he's not going to stay and he's just a rental, I don't know if the benefit of trading him outweighs the risk of losing him. You might be better off just waiting it out. Right. So maybe there's nothing, but if you're able to create a little bidding war,

maybe, maybe a team like the Lakers gets worried and they offer something of value to get him before the deadline, instead of risk, instead of risking him going to another team for a cheap price and then losing out on him and free agency. Maybe there's a way for Sam Presti to create leverage by kind of going to other teams.

Maybe George would be willing to resign in the right situation, right? Maybe there's a team in the East that he would be willing to resign with. But you need to create that leverage to, I think, get good value back. Otherwise, I think if you're Oklahoma City, you've got to give it till april unless you get something of value because there's still a chance in those latter two months of the season that's when things start to click right i think everybody thought this team was going to take a while but maybe it takes a little bit longer than expected so i think i think you need to get

something of significant value back still i wonder if they do a trade i think it's almost entirely financial so he's making he's i can't i can't remember exactly how much he's making but i think it's over i think it's like 22 some 20 it's somewhere in that range i believe it's i want to say it's like 18 19 right now maybe that's what that's what it's adam's next 22. Hell of a lot more next year, though. Right. Adams makes 22. Paul George is 19.5. Right. So if they're doing a trade, it has to be a luxury tax deal. And it has to be something where they're sending him to a team that has a ton of cap space that can absorb the trade and only send back $7 million worth of guys. And there's really no teams out there that are like that.

Like Philly would have been, I think, a candidate, right? But then they did that Covington extension, which kind of slaughtered their cap space. So now you're looking at teams like Dallas has cap space. I think there's one other team that, oh, Chicago has cap space. Like you're looking at teams like that, but why would Paul George ever resign with a team like that? I think they're kind of stuck with this roster

unless there's some sort of more imaginative deal that I'm missing. I mean, that's going to be the difficult part. I mean, they might just be stuck where they just have to ride this out and see what happens. Well, and that's why I thought maybe Adams is the move. If you just want to save 24 million, you dump Adams. But if you're OKC and you think there's no chance George is going to resign with you and you dump Adams just right now to save some money,

a year from now, you have no George and you have no Adams. So I'm not sure they're going to make that move. By the way, another Celtics what if was Horford was very close to signing with OKC, right? Until Durant decided he wasn't signing there. And then the Celtics get Horford. But there's a lot of Boston related what ifs. Kevin, before we go, has there been one team that, in your opinion, there's a lot of Boston related what ifs Kevin before

we go has there been has there been one team that in your opinion has vaulted into this team could possibly make the finals conversation how many teams do you have in the this team could possibly make the finals conversation right now all the three

out West Houston Golden State San Antonio really no surprises there and then the East I think it's a little bit more open than expected. Maybe I feel a little bit better about Toronto than I did before the season. The way they're moving the ball on the offensive end. Dwayne Casey deserves a lot of credit. And those players, DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry, more than anything else, those guys bought into the systematic changes. That's really where the team – that's a team that I liked going into the systematic changes um i that that's really where the team that that's a team

that i liked going into the season but i'm i'm really really into them now just because of their change of style interesting so you have six teams then yeah three in the east three in the west nobody else washington if john wall fixes himself before the end of the season could could move up there but i'm not sure milwaukee's quite ready yet definitely i'm definitely crossing off milwaukee kevin are you worried that uh morris may not be a factor for us the rest of the year how about that weird statement he made about you know coming off the bench recently. That was odd. Yeah, very weird given that I think two days later he didn't play because of his knee injury.

Yeah, it went from, it seems like he's a good teammate, but then the bench thing was weird and very atypical for the Brad Stevens era. It made me wonder, I think, isn't this the last year of his contract? No, he's got three years left, but it's a good contract. It made me wonder, I think, isn't this the last year of his contract or he's got, he's got, no, he's got three years left,

but it's a good contract. That's like 6 million. And if they, if they, well, they're too late now. If they had absorbed somebody into the, Hey,

we're at 8.4, they could have packaged that together with somebody. But I think, I think it is conceivable Morris could be in a, in a deal. I don't think the Celtics are finished yet. Why can't they package that with the injury settlement? Because...

There was a deadline for that. Yeah. December 8th was the last date because of rules in the CBA that would allow them to package the salary they would receive with another deal. So they can still use the money. They just can't package it. They could still do one for one.

So they could sign Kendrick Perkins for $8 million tomorrow and then flip him for somebody who makes $10 million. But you can't package him. I actually was disappointed with how they handled that. But I do think the ulterior motive is so, and we've never seen this before. Kevin, you better sit down. This is very exciting the celtics 8.4 million dollars once we get into the buyout stage post trade deadline which is

today isn't it no no this is like i'm saying after the trade deadline when it's like if you didn't get traded you're stuck on your team that's usually when guys get bought out okay they could offer anyone 8.4 million right so it could be i'm trying to think of who's who's a veteran on a shit team who might get bought out like like the scenario would have been like if duane wade was still on the bulls and they kept until february and then the celtics could have stepped in in february and been like here's 8.4 then the Celtics could have stepped in in February and been like, here's 8.4 million. The other interesting thing they could do is they could convince a team who has somebody with two years left on their deal this year and next,

they could do a little chicanery, convince that team to buy out the guy and then promise to make up the guy's salary with the 8.4. So if it was somebody who made 8 million this year, 8 million next year, they could tell the team, just waive them, pay them for the rest of the year and then do a buyout. And then we'll make up the money and the guy will get 16 million right now instead of 8 and 8. But I looked at the list and there really isn't anybody out there, but I do think they they're gonna get super creative with that who is there a favorite buyout guy potentially kevin how about greg monroe on the phoenix suns at the time of that deal happened there was reports and you know how much i like

my dad loves greg monroe yeah he's he's transformed into he's he's the guy jaleel okafor needs to become elevate his defense and elevate his rebounding because the scoring is there for okafor um so greg monroe i think he would be a smart candidate come off the bench and you know bruise bench bench units so i wonder what the legalities are of let's say they traded phoenix like a good second round pick for just somebody who sucked like their 16th man. And as part of that trade, it was wink, wink, wave, Greg Monroe, um, for $0, just, just buy them out for $0. And then we'll make it up with the 8.4. I wonder how would the league stop that? I mean, they could kind of dot the lines, but they wouldn't really be able to prove something happened. Right. I can't't see Phoenix doing something with us.

Yeah, that's true. After the Isaiah thing. I think McDonough is still taking so much heat for the Isaiah trade. Yeah, that is true. But on the other hand, they have a cheap owner. And if they don't trade Monroe before the deadline, that owner is going to be like, yeah, get that guy out of here. I can see Monroe being moved.

I will tell you this, if we get Monroe, my dad will be doing a victory lap at Beacon Hill. Just a very long dog walk that day. Just congratulations. I think we're missing a big guy. And the Morris injury is certainly exacerbating that right now. See, I would argue what Morris gives them

and what we would miss if we didn't have that is that 6'8 type of guy who can guard LeBron. If he's healthy. But that's what I'm saying. If we don't think he's going to be healthy this year and we don't have that guy,

now we're looking at Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum guarding LeBron, which is a disaster. Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum guarding LeBron, which is a disaster. Jalen can handle it, but if he gets him in foul trouble, now we're asking a 19-year-old kid to guard LeBron in a playoff series. We need the third guy, and I don't know who that is. I thought it might be Trevor Booker, and then Philly swiped him. But is there anyone else you like having out there who could be that 6'8 guy?

Honestly, there's, there's not a lot. I think they have them on the roster. It's Marcus Morris. I think he's that guy. So we got to get his head right. No matter how long it takes.

Or shut him down for a month and make sure that knee gets, gets healthy. Maybe he needs a minor procedure. I mean, they said that structurally the knee is fine. That was in the paper yesterday. Yeah. So you're telling them to suck it up, basically. I don't want you to mess with the Morris brothers. I did not say suck it up. I said, try to find out why the irritation is there if the

knee is structurally sound. Before we go, young Kevin is moving to Los Angeles next month. I did not know that. Do you have any advice for young Kevin's dad? Oh. Because this was when I left the East Coast. You were devastated. Oh. I did not know you were making that move.

Congratulations. Thank you. I'm looking forward to it. I thought it was going to break on TMZ for three weeks, but they didn't cover it. So I'm announcing it here. My only suggestion was, uh, hopefully you'll invite your dad out to the coast a little more frequently than I get invited. Wow. Jesus. I'll make an effort to do that. You're always like talking about how the dogs and how you can't get dog care.

You're never available. It's always hard to get you out of here. That's just so I can feel better about myself not being invited out of here. Yeah. All right. Fair enough. KFC, what's your finals pick right now? If, a gun to your head, you had to pick two teams in the finals and what the final result would be, who would you pick?

I'm going to go with Golden State still in the West. Golden State in five against... I'm going to change from my preseason pick, which was the Celtics, and go to the Cavaliers. So Cavaliers, Warriors again um warriors and five gordon hayward april 15th over under he comes back do you go over meaning it would be after april 15th or under april 15th for when we see gordon hayward in a celtics uniform in a game i'm going to go over as in first round of the playoffs, something like that.

Serious minutes restriction, if it's this season. Okay, May 15th, over under. Under. Under. So you think he's back by first round of the playoffs yeah if hayward is is were to return i think middle of the first round of the playoffs something like that perhaps starts practicing in april but then returns to the court late april early may something like that so dad greg monroe greg monroe and g Hayward. Happy birthday. I like our chances if that's, and a healthy Marcus Morris.

I like our chances. This is it, man. We're back. If those three things occur, I disagree with Kevin O'Connell. I can see us. O'Connor. O'Connor, yeah. Kevin O'Connell was the former third string Pats quarterback way back when.

I'm seven years old. So you have us back in the when. I'm seven years old. So you have us back in the finals. I do, yeah. Wow. If those three things happen, sure. This is exciting. You made my dad's day.

Kevin O'Connor, good job this week here in the Ringer NBA show. Early next week. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, guys. Have a great day. Take care. All right. Thanks for coming on. Thanks guys. Have a great day. All right. All right. Thanks to my dad.

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