The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Bulls in Limbo, the Terrific Season 2 of 'The Bear,' and a Frustrating Yankees Season With Jason Goff, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, and JackO

Episode Date: June 28, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Jason Goff to discuss the Bulls' position in NBA no-man's-land for the last decade, whether to tank or compete, fake offseason trades, and more (1:49). Next, Bill talks with his longtime friend and Yankees fan JackO to discuss the Yanks' disappointing start to the season, fantasies of changes to the front office, and the state of mind of the average Yankees fan (39:57). Finally, Bill, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson discuss Season 2 of FX's 'The Bear' [SPOILERS] and why they love it so much (1:57:13). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jason Goff, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, and JackO Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, the Chicago Bulls, the Bear, an annoyed Jacko. Oh yeah, it's all next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey.

And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday Night Hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey. It's on Monday.

It's on Prime. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag

the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch your pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs, the next drive. They have so much stuff. It's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use. And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus look out for FanDuel squares this season. Here's what you have to do out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit fanduel.com slash BS to download America's number one sports book. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming.

Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where if you didn't see it, we did a new rewatchables we put up on Monday night.

We did This Is The End. In my opinion, the funniest comedy of the past 10 years. One of the most rewatchable comedies of the 21st century. It was me, Chris Ryan, and Craig Horlbeck. Go check that out. Check out the Prestige TV podcast as well. We've been breaking down The Bear, which we're going to talk about on this podcast.

In the last hour, me and Mally Rubin and Joanna Robinson deep-dived an incredible season two of The Bear, especially episode six and episode seven. We just went all in. That's the last hour of this podcast. We also had my buddy Jacko who has not been on a long time, mainly because I haven't had a lot of bass baseball on the podcast, but we fixed that today and we gave him the floor and he just ranted and ranted and ranted about the New York Yankees.

And at the very top little NBA, the Chicago bulls, either the least interesting Yankees. And at the very top, a little NBA. The Chicago Bulls, either the least interesting team of the offseason or the most interesting. We're going to decide. Jason Goff from the Full Go podcast. We have a Chicago podcast that's awesome. He's the host and he's coming on

and I'm going to throw some Chicago Bulls trades at him. Try to fix a team that has been secretly a lot more depressing than you realize for the last 12 years. So that's the podcast. Let's all cut on next. First, our friends from ProTip. All right. So Jason Goff is here and I did a lot of bulls research. The bulls are the ugly duckling of the 2023 summer. They're not in any conversations. Nobody knows whether

they're a buyer or a seller, whether they matter, whether they don't matter. You can make a case they're the most interesting team, the least interesting team. I'm sure you're in the fray there in Chicago trying to figure out ways to talk about them. I'm going to start here. Derrick Rose blows out his knee in that Philly series

in 2012 at the end of game one that they're winning. I was on the baseline for that. Has anything good happened since then? in 2012 at the end of game one that they're winning. I was on the baseline for that. Yeah. Has anything good happened since then? We're not talking 11 plus years and basically 12 seasons slash post seasons. Is this an official, you can point to that and go, oh God, since that,

what's been good? I mean, there's a direct line of demarcation in terms of Bulls fans hopes and dreams that could be achieved as opposed to what you were trying to get back to. And since the feeling was so short, like you mentioned it. And, you know, there's a few things that I'll never, ever forget is where I was when Goran Dragic did go upstairsh upstairs with Derek Rose. I was in the press box in that weird, funky Phoenix, you know, situation up there in the second level where you got to look at people that are fans and say, yeah, that's what he kind of does. And then on the baseline, me and Agrae Sam walking back towards the media room, thinking that the game was, you know, getting ready to wrap up, beat the whole media horde that's coming back there. And you see him go down. And from that moment on, asking his brothers and talking to people around him. And then the whole, is he going to play? Is he not going to play? And then the stuff being leaked about his teammates taking care of him in practice and how he should be out there on the court.

All the things that happened from that moment, it was such a sour point in Chicago sports history that definitely is going to probably be something 15, 20 years from now that we'll be looking at as one of those times where we just caught a bad break as a fan base. I mean, you know, Gale Sayers and Dick Buckus never played in meaningful football games, right? Like you look at the careers of Andre Dawson and Billy Williams and characters like that. And you're like, man, those players really never got a chance to shine on a real stage. Derrick Rose was going to be that post-Jordan reintroduction, not only to relevancy, but to expectation. You know, because we went through Kirk Heinrich, Andres Nocione, Ben Gordon and that spunky bull squad that were there to take you to six, but we always knew what it was going to be. And then Derek popped into the scene. And from that point on, the Jimmy Butler coming of age, the Tom Thibodeau interactions with John Paxson and

the front office. I mean, from that point on, you can see the dominoes begin to drop. And that's exactly how it happens when you're planning on something being there for seven to 10 years and being at a certain level and it just dropping off the map. And then all of a sudden you have them scrape together pieces and put together things. And all of a sudden egos get in the way. And on top of that, that core that he grew up with started to get older, right? That window started to dissipate without him. So, yeah, if you want to talk about Bulls basketball, you can look at that as a clear line of demarcation.

Yeah. You think in the 2012-13 season, Noah was first team all NBA. And I think I might've voted for him like third or fourth for MVP that year. He was awesome. I think he was top five or something like that. Yeah. Butler was coming on and you had all the pieces. Lou was still healthy enough. And he had already gone through his issues with the training staff and the pieces. Lou was still, you know, healthy enough. Yeah. And he had already gone through his issues with the training staff and the organization. Like there was a buildup to that point and you got the comment

and you got a chance to take a picture of it and somebody came through and burned your Polaroid. So you would never have a memory of that either. Like we watch mixtapes quite often around these parts when it comes to yearning for that old Derrick Rose sensation of feeling. I know I do. I'm not going to lie. He's the reason why my career, I think, took the turn that it took because I covered him from the moment he stepped into the game. And it was an unbelievable, it's weird to say this, but a break for LeBron and Miami and Cleveland

where he loses Dwight Howard. Dwight Howard's like first team all NBA for like six straight years. He goes sideways, ends up switching conferences. Rose gets bounced. And then it's like, who's even in the East to go through for years and years and years. It would have been Rose. Your guy rookie year, right? I mean, come on, Jason Tatum. Right, but he shows up in 2017. Like it probably would have been Rose would have been the guy. Paul George was still in that mix too, you know, in Indiana. I went back. I looked at every season since the season after Rose got hurt. So 2012-13 on and tried to figure out how many teams have not had a top eight record over that span.

And the answer was seven teams. It was Detroit. It was Orlando, Washington, Minnesota, New Orleans, Charlotte, and Chicago. And you look at those seven teams and it's like five small market teams, Washington, who can't stay out of their own way, but then the Bulls who are in the third biggest market

in the league that have the Jordan legacy and all that. Then you start doing more digging. They've paid the luxury tax once in the history of the franchise, right? They got lucky with high lottery picks three times and it ended up being Wendell Carter seventh, Kobe White seventh, Patrick Williams fourth. And you could go through those drafts to go,

should have taken that, should have taken that. But it was more, I mean, really the bad luck was they were pretty close to Luka and Trey that draft, but they're two back. And it just kind of never happened. The last all-star they drafted was Jimmy Butler in 2011. They've had four first-round exits and

two second-round exits. They were only bottom five once. They're the classic definition of you never want to be in the middle, right? You think of that, you think of the Bulls. Yeah. NBA hell, treadmill and mediocrity, whatever you want to call it. Not bad enough to get that top pick, not good enough to really contend for anything material, especially here. Like you mentioned, I mean, we witnessed and I witnessed as a kid and then growing up, one of the great dynasties of all time in sports, the early 90s Bulls. I knew what I was going to

be doing every June for eight years. So it's tough to wrap your head around it. And also some of the things that didn't happen along the way, like you mentioned, the kicking of the tires of Clay Thompson in that draft and not coming up with him, the know, the being told reportedly being told by Tom Thibodeau and other people in their organization. Hey, now Marcus Teague, Draymond Green, you know, the little things that as you go along and I'm sure every city and every organization has these little things. But when you like you mentioned the third market, you can't really hide behind, okay, it's not a destination spot. There are plenty of NBA players who live here during the summer and understand that that's pretty much all they have to do. And you've also assigned big free agents. It's not like you haven't, but they just were at the wrong points of their

careers. Yeah. Ben Wallace, Carlos Boozer. Dwayne Wade pulled him from Miami. But I mean, at the time it was a big deal. Then it turned out it wasn't. Yeah. I mean, but that was at the time too, where we were talking about the three alphas and knowing that that wasn't going to work with Rajon Rondo, Jay Butler and Dwayne Wade. Like certain things, it just seemed like it would be great if it did work. But the expectation was, okay, this is just just this is just treading water at this point. And the specter, like you mentioned, the specter, Michael Jordan, like, yeah, this is just this is just finally getting ready to be the generation that doesn't have that kind of hold outside of the shoes.

You know, a lot of people don't want to come here for that kind of smoke. And I don't want you here if you don't. But at the same time, a lot of people, we find out that a lot of people don't want that smoke in other cities. It's probably not going to be readily available for them here in Chicago and be able to be digested properly. It doesn't make sense. Like if we just levitate 40,000 feet away, it's like, how are the bulls not good for 12 years? That's fucking stupid. Hey, 98, I keep saying it and I say it on my pod. 98 is my 85 for years and years and years and years. The 85 bears ruled not only the nation, but they ruled this town from the moment they won that Super Bowl on. And I would always look

around and whenever I had a microphone when I was a kid or coming up, I would always ask like, man, that's a long time. When I went to Atlanta, you know, the fact that they hadn't won a championship in the sport that they love the most, which is college football since Herschel Walker outside of these last couple where they went crazy with Kirby Smart. It's like certain places you think like, how the hell is this not occurring in a place that loves it this much? Like what is really at the root of it? And management decisions, sticking with management, treating things like Jerry Reinsdorf and the Reinsdorf family has always treated their organizations like an insular family kind of situation.

Even with the minority shares in certain groups, they are of the understanding we put people in position to do jobs, but they sometimes, you know, if you're hired by the Reinsdorfs, you've probably got a job for life if you do things to their liking or to their understanding. If you can explain things, the same thing with the White Sox, you know?

And as I look at it, you know, Gar Foreman and John Paxson might've gone on far too long, but they were allowed to make the mistakes and make the moves that they were allowed to make along with drafting Jimmy Butler and guys like that. So it was, you know, nothing's linear, right? So it was jagged enough to keep it,

but at the same time in this league where you have to draw in free agents and you have to make things attractive. You look at what Brooklyn did. For the longest time, they were sitting there waiting for somebody to drop into this nest of, you know, the way it come about. And all of a sudden, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant show up and they blow up their culture. Like the Bulls seemingly have been building this thing where it's like, OK, at some point somebody is going to drop in here.

Nobody's dropped in. So you got to you got to stay relevant. You got to keep butts in the seats. And now Zach Levine and DeMar DeRozan are cast with the expectations of contending. But at the same time, what's your ceiling is no shade to them because they're two terrific players. But what's your ceiling when they're the guys? So Bulls fans have found themselves in this kind of cycle for a while now. Well, that's why you're here. More importantly, that's why I'm here. Because I think you need some outside help. i've put some real thought into this what you gonna do for me come on make my summer better so this is why i think they're the stealth most interesting team of the of the offseason okay they solve a lot of problems for other teams. Right? But it would require the Bulls going,

what are we doing? Let's blow this up. Let's just, like, why are we going to pay Vucevic? He's a free agent. Are we really going to extend DeRozan for a couple more years into his mid-30s? He's on this great contract. Why don't we trade him right now? Levine, who's got four years

left for big bucks. A lot of teams we just saw with Bradley Beal, like, you know, that's the worst case scenario because he had no trade clause. But if, if I was running the bowls, I would blow it up and start over. And I think you go through some of the teams that need people, right? Like let's look at Miami. Everyone's like, well, Dame's going to go to Miami. Is he, are we positive? Like there's a lot of teams that are going to go after Dame. And what happens Are we positive? Like, there's a lot of teams that are going to go after Dame. And what happens if Miami doesn't get Dame?

Because right now they're already, like, basically almost the second apron team. They have Gabe Vincent and they have Strews coming as, you know, I'm sure they're going to want to resign those guys. And they have Lowry as an expiring. And the move right now is to trade Lowry for something or Hero for something or both. And, like, if they don't get Dame, why wouldn't

they turn Hero into DeRozan or Lowry and some picks into DeRozan? DeRozan would be the second call if I knew I wasn't going to get Dame. Then he won more score. And if I'm Chicago, I'm just sitting there like, hey, we'll figure this out. If I could turn DeRozan into Hero, I would do that in a heartbeat. That's one team. The Portland piece of this, as you know,

you have this Portland pick and it's top 14 protected until like 2075. It just keeps rolling over year after year after year. Right, right. But it's bad for Portland because that means they can't put other picks in their trades, right? So it looks like Dame might stay or they're going to go through the facade of him staying.

Well, if he's going to stay, they got to trade some stuff to kind of put pieces around him. But you can't do that if you have this protection thing. Well, here are the balls. We'll waive the protection. Let's talk deal. You got Simons. We got DeRozan. We could waive the protection. Let's talk deal. You got Simons.

We got DeRozan. We could waive some protection. It's interesting to me that you keep putting DeRozan in these deals. Why aren't you putting Zach Levine in these deals? I have Zach coming. Don't you worry. He's coming after the break. I was just trying to see what the market is looking like. He's coming after the break. You have

also Vucevic. If Portland is panicking and they want to win now couldn't you do a DeRozan-Vucevic combo sign a trade get Simons back get a bunch of picks back take Nurkic's crappy contract back and basically just start over

and send both of those guys out I think the Lonzo Ball piece of this is very very apparent because I think that Arturis Karnaschovas and Mark Eversley saw what that two and a half months before the all-star break looked like. And that gives them fuel, in my estimation. And not that Lonzo's going to come back. Fuel which way?

Not that Lonzo's going to come back, but if that piece is understood or solved or managed a little bit better, that point guard piece, then this team is different. I mean, Patrick Beverly was on this team when they went 14 and nine down the stretch. And I'm not, trust me, I'm not the guy that's selling all that to you. What I'm telling you is for that to happen, I think that those guys who have been put in full space command by the Reinsdorfs and Michael Reinsdorf himself, like he said, hey, these guys, they have been delegated this power. This is what they want to do. If that's the case, right, if they're looking at this as being a point guard away, then the moment you send the guy that you paid $215 million to out after the first year of a five year deal. Yeah, Zach.

Then now you're telling everybody, OK, all right, maybe the development plan that we talked about when we got this gig, that got thrown out the window the moment you went to go get Vucevic. All right, maybe the continuity plan that we talked about after we traded for Vucevic. Now that goes out the window because we traded Zach Levine and DeMar DeRozan. At some point, the clock starts on these guys. And I think they're still trying to figure out if that clock can stay delayed while they're trying to figure out the point guard position themselves. Like, I think the bulls think that they might, you know,

be kicking the tires on some certain players as well. I don't think this is an offload. I think this is, these are two way conversations that are happening around. So you, yeah. Cause you mentioned on your pod, you thought they were a stealth Chris Paul destination.

Hey, listen, I wanted it for the story alone. Like I wanted it for the, the fact that Chris Paul, I think, is still good for 20 games during the regular season and hopefully the 15, 16 that matter in the postseason.

But yeah, they need something. That's the reason why Patrick Beverly is calling, you know, Carl Anthony Towns one of the best players he's ever seen. That's why he's saying what he's saying about Zach because he understands that the Bulls are still looking for that point guard position to be filled. And they understands that the Bulls are still looking for that point guard position to be filled.

And they think that the Miami Heat team that beat them when they had a 3-minute and 45-second lead in that playing game, I think there's some thinking that they are closer to that

than they are to Orlando and Charlotte and all these other teams. Zach Lowe wrote about this for ESPN this week about what other teams learned from the Heat. Like, was it an aberration or was it repugnable, which I thought was a really good angle.

Yeah, if you're the Bulls, do you just watch the tape of that playing game and go, man, that could have been us. I personally think that's insane. Oh, hey, Bill, we're not talking. Listen, I am ready for something else. OK, right. I'm ready for that feeling that I had when and it's going to sound crazy. Like I remember the Baby Bulls with Tyson and Eddie. I'm not saying I'm ready for that.

What I'm saying is like I'm ready for that mindset, a reset. And I think that the fan base wouldn't be mad at you at this point. Now, what happens in the building is different, right? The fans don't pay you your salary. The fans don't veto and accept trades. So what I think is not important here. I thought this thing had reached its ceiling at the end of last year. Right.

Well, the Lonzo piece, it sounds like Lonzo's out for this upcoming season. Oh, no, they've declared him out. Yeah. So they can use, there's some sort of injury exception that they could use like 10 million. But the problem is if they bring Vucevic back and they re-sign at least a couple of those guys, now they're close to the second apron and that's before they would use the extra money to get whatever point card they want um the lonzo thing's really sad and if you were it's too early to do a curse of the bulls thing with the derrick rose injury it's only been 12 years but that's fucking weird like he goes to the bulls and he gets hurt within two months and you had there was a moment there yeah that first season when it was like oh something's going on here and then then it was over immediately. You know what it felt like? It felt like when I was in Atlanta, when they had the, you know, they would always get out to those starts.

And Josh Smith would be talked about as an all-star. You know what I mean? And then we get there. Oh, look, they got three all-stars. They're starting an all-star game or something like that. And it's like, all right, let's not talk about playoff seasons. Let's start talking about championships. And when it's time to winning time, I think certain people excuse themselves.

Let's take a break and then we got to dive into Mr. Levine. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when

you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. Zach Levine, you've watched him for a couple of years now. Nine seasons, four total playoff games plus a playing game.

Last five years, 25-5 and 5 basically. 48-39 or 84 percentage splits. Really good. On the books for 40-43-46 and then a $49 million player option. He's never probably going to be

better than he is now. Do you trade him? And what's his market? The market's higher than Bradley Beal because he doesn't have no trade class. You have teams like, I don't know, the Clippers,

if they wanted to put Paul George on the table and mix it up. The Knicks, I'm sure, would want to dive in. Philly, if they want to do a little maxi Tobias Harris. Portland, who we could talk about again again and then Miami would be the other one if they don't get damn um you've watched them in and out every day for a couple years now can you win a title if he's your second best player uh depends on who your first best player is. If your best player is Jokic

or one of these five that we talk about all the time, then I believe so. I think, you know, I think Zach Levine is going to settle into, and this is no disrespect because this is, I think, one of the highest honors

I can give somebody in terms of how I respect this game. Remember Milwaukee Ray Allen? Milwaukee Ray Allen scoring 25 a game, 24 a game, catching people at the rim, super athletic, super agile, had the smoothest handle, terrific shooter. And then he turns into Seattle Ray, where it's more to extending towards a three-point line, doesn't have to do as much, part of that first Splash Brothers crew with him and Richard Lewis. And then he goes to Boston.

And then he goes to Miami. And then you see the purest form of this is what Ray Allen's going to do for you. I think Zach Levine's right now. Zach Levine has proved it to himself that he is this good. He's proved it to the rest of the NBA that he is this good. He was on Team USA. All these things have happened. Now, if Zach Levine starts to look

around and he has to play second fiddle some nights, and I'm not saying that this is an issue, but what I'm saying is at the end of the stretch, especially the last 15 games or so of the season when you knew DeMar DeRozan had that right hip adductor issue, and there was still moments where zach ravine is getting the ball to demar and the end of game situations or you know demar is the the end game decision maker you know in terms of ball handling at the end yeah that to me you know it's kind of like when lowry and zach were playing together three years ago and i never saw a pick and roll pick and fade pick and pop with those guys like hey man at some point you going to have to figure out if your two best players can play with each other.

Now we're at the point where it's like at some point, Zach's not going to be able to iron out these late game decision-making issues or these late game shot selection issues. If he is not regularly getting those repetitions. So I think Zach right now is everything that you say, those numbers say he is and more. I think he's become a better defender, right? Now that probably makes him what, an average one if you're being kind. But at some point, you're going to have to just put the basketball in his hand and say, make all the mistakes. The game will tell you the truth.

The game will tell him exactly who he is and who he isn't. But this back and say, make all the mistakes. The game will tell you the truth. The game will tell him exactly who he is and who he isn't. But this back and forth, ever since DeMar DeRozan has kind of dropped in your lap these last couple of years after being on a free agent market that really wasn't checking for him, he's been on the prove it that I'm DeMar DeRozan, I'm still the dude run. And I'm not mad at that either because that's what's got him here. But at the same time, if we're going to continue to see some of the things that make you scratch your head about zach and some late game situations at what point is he going to get a chance to iron those things out it can't be a pop quiz every night right it's got to be a consistent test and so you're done you're done with these two as a

combo i i think you're at the pick one stage i yeah and i and i think that i think that you've reached the level that you can, the highest ceiling that you could possibly reach with them. It's not a knock on them. It's just with those two guys, especially when Vooch is on the court. For the last two years, Vooch has had to change his game demonstrably so because he gets his points in the same area that DeMar DeRozan gets his. That high elbow, that post play. DeMar's not going out there for three. So the way the teams put together and the way that those two guys play off of each other and sometimes don't play off of each other, I think that you've reached your ceiling with

this group. And we'll see because they believe in a continuity and they believe that they haven't had a real chance to play together. Who believes in it? Our two-year-old counter-show, Mr. Mark Eversley, have preached continuity. So the front office believes in it. They preach continuity.

And the ownership's like, we believe it as long as you don't pay the luxury tax. Hey, the message is in the results. The message is right there in the results for anybody to see. It sure is. So I made up some Levine trades. message is in the results. The message is right there in the results for anybody to see. It sure is. I made up some Levine trades.

Uh-oh. And I don't really love any of them. I think he's in a weird spot with the amount of money he makes. It's hard to look at Jamal Murray's deal and look at his and be like, man, these two dudes make the same amount of money. The owner's going to learn that max contracts only hurt them if we're talking about true value. You should be able to pay somebody appreciably more if they are at a different level. And if

a person has achieved a different level. And I know there's little caveats in the CBA that bring that along, but to really accentuate it, if I'm making $85 million and the dude who is similar to me is making $47 million or $60 million down in the world, then who's really hurting who here? If we're talking about max value for all these organizations. Yeah. Sometimes it's just the situation you were in when that deal became available. Yeah, which always available. Yeah, Jamal was hurt. Could Miami try to trade for him and do Hero and some picks? That's a good Dame backup. Yeah, I would think that.

That or the New York thing where I've seen R.J. Barrett. You'd have to get R.J. back, right? Yeah, R.J. Barrett, Mitchell Robinson, the pick or something like that. I would, I would figure out what you would do with Mitchell Robinson and Vooch on the same roster.

But, yeah, like Zach, Zach has a few places he could probably drop in. It's just, do the Bulls want to accept whatever that is coming back?

You know, the Bulls, the Bulls don't really do the tanking rebuild thing. And, when they, But it makes more sense for them to have R.J. Barrett than Zach Levine if they're just going to be in the middle. I'd rather have the guy who's five, six years younger and is less expensive. Yeah, yeah.

Zach gives them a professional big city face for the NBA. You know, I mean, the things that matter in terms of the YI Center being dinner theater, if they're not contending, matter still. You know? I think he's... I'm not a gigantic fan, but I'm not

against him either, but I actually think of Levine. I think he's weirdly underrated as an asset though. And like the most underrated guy now is Aiton. The Aiton stuff's ridiculous. Like Mark Stein had a thing today in his newsletter that Dallas was going to trade Hardaway and Rashawn Holmes for DeAndre Aiton, but they insisted on including JaVale McGee and Phoenix

is like too rich for our blood. And I'm thinking like, Dallas, just take DeAndre Ayton, but they insisted on including JaVale McGee and Phoenix is like too rich for our blood. And I'm thinking like, Dallas, just take DeAndre Ayton. Tim Hardaway or Sean Holmes, that's it? That's all it took? What are you guys doing? DeAndre Ayton's good. So he's been like just,

I don't know what happened to him. Levine is like, it feels like he's available. He's a 25, five and five guy, but yet there's no, like Dame lowered his on first take every day. Where's a 25, 5 and 5 guy, but yet there's no, like, Dame Lowered is on first take every day. Where's he going? Where's he going? There's, like, no Levine conversation at all.

So I don't know where he should be. You know, I think that speaks to the overall relevancy of the Bulls, though. Yeah, 100%. Right? Like, why aren't we talking about Brandon Ingram? Right? Like, if New Orleans can't move Zion and they gotta change up that chemistry

and they can't move CJ, like these are the things where- So Brandon Ingram for Levine? I don't think I'd do that, but I like Ingram more than Levine. That's a good one though. That's a good fake one. Who do you think affects winning more?

I think Ingram. I really thought Ingram the last couple months, the last season, I was really impressed. I thought he went up a level. I haven'tgram, I really thought Ingram the last couple of months, the last season, I was really impressed. I thought he went up a level. I haven't seen Zach go up a level as like a two way. I'm dragging my team to like a nine and one over 10. You know where Zach has gone up a level and it's so crazy because Will Purdue and Kendall Gill and I talk about this often. He has refined his game so much. So we thought we knew he was going to be a score right we knew he was going to be athletic but the fact that he's doing it on the splits that

he's doing it like understand his his his shot awareness has improved so much so that some of the things that he falters with still like some of the like i said late game decision making there'll be a turnover where you just like what's going on here um but i've noticed some of yeah some of the things that he falters on yeah man he he i think he's i don't think he's talked about because i don't think the bulls are talked about on the national stage nearly enough as they should be and when they were talked about it was because it was like hey look at the bulls you know they have the number one seed in the east and going into the All-Star break and then people could settle back

because of the injury, could settle back into their normal reflexes when they talk about this organization, which is to not talk about it on a national stage in terms of having attractive players. NBA No Man's Land isn't exciting for a podcast segment. Don't get it twisted.

I find all the absurdities and I laugh at all of them. Listen, I have had my Patrick Williams come to Jesus meetings on a weekly basis during the basketball season. I do. I'd like to see a full season from him.

Plus, he's like 21. He's like one of those super young guys. You know what's so crazy? I feel like I said it to an Eastern Conference scout the other day. I was like, I had a dream that Patrick Williams woke up and he was the only option. Not the number one option, but the only option on the team. The Vooch thing fell through.

They traded. It was like full lottery. Just running high sides for him with two minutes left. Hey, P-Dub, come get your 24 shots a day. Oh, my God. You know what I mean? Let's stare down Jordan Poole out there in D.C. and see who can take the worst shots for the worst team.

Well, Russel and I have a theory that like 100 guys in the league could score 20 points a game if they were on the right team. Easy. Easy. As we'll find out with Jordan Poole on the Wizards next year when he scores 30 again. Hey, Jordan Poole is about to have

the time of his life in Chocolate City. He's going to be so happy. This is going to either go really well or really poorly. Either way, it's going to be entertaining. So I centered on Philly. Okay. And Harris has an expiring in Maxie.

And I think that's too much because I think Maxie, he's young. He's still rookie contract. I think teams really like him. But if you threw Caruso in that trade and that become Harris and Maxie for Levine and Caruso, now I feel like the bulls are giving up slightly too much. But on the other hand, I kind of like your team more because I think Harris is another guy who's a little undervalued. He's just been standing in the corner for three

years. Yeah, I've always liked Tobias Harris. When I first saw him, I thought he would be like a really, really, really poor man's Carmelo Anthony in terms of like arc to block scoring. But now he's comparing himself to cookies and all kinds of wild stuff going on.

That worries me. The trade speculation. But no, I mean, Tyrese Maxey is fun. I thought I picked the 76ers to win the, no, to get to the finals this year because I thought he was a sin to being their second best player. You know, what are we talking about

the goal being here for the Bulls? Are we talking about jumping into that top four, top five? Because does that make you better than Cleveland? Does that make you better than Boston? Does it make you better than Philly? Does that make you better than Milwaukee? Like to make a trade and still be messing around with the playing, I think is the thing that scares this organization the most.

It's because of how topsy-turvy it is. And those dudes behind you, the Orlandos and the Indianas, those cats are catching up, too. So are you going to be that much better with those dudes on your team? Are you better than Cleveland right now if Tobias Harris, Tyrese Maxey, DeMar DeRozan, Patrick Williams, and Nikola Vucevic march out there. Well, I mean, the Vuce is a whole other conversation whether he even comes back. I guess what I would want if I were them was a little more flexibility and a little more youth because if they don't extend DeRozan, he leaves as a free agent next year. Now you've lost that asset completely. Vuce,

I think it's kind of telling that a lot of teams have cap space and we're talking about, or the ability to create some cap space. We're talking about Draymond and all these other guys and it doesn't seem like there's a Vooch market at all. And I don't even know, does Brook Lopez have a better

market than Vooch? He might. He might. Because if you're going $25 million a year for Vooch, I think teams look at that and go, I'd rather pay $50 million for Brook Lopez. Yeah, but Brook doesn't have to worry about being the top three option on his team. And sometimes

top two. Because he can't be. So that would be the flip side on Vooch. It's like, well, I kind of want to see him use like Sabonis was used on Sacramento. That's kind of his destiny, right? On the right team. This was not the right team for him where he's playing with two ISO-heavy dudes, basically.

And I don't know. He's the kill of the Celtics. He had to change his game. He had to change his game up because of these guys. So part of me wonders if they turn Levine and Caruso into Harris and Maxie and some assets, they kept DeRozan, they brought Vucevic back. Do I like that team more?

And I kind of landed on yes. And the other one I was looking at was Paul George, but I don't know what the injury history that the Bulls have had over the last 15 years

if you want to go down the Paul George rabbit hole. But that's the one where the salaries match up, change the scenery, and Levine comes back for the West Coast. That makes some sense. If there's one where the salaries match up change the scenery levine comes back for the west coast yeah that makes some sense if there's one thing the bulls fans haven't had to deal with over the last few years is load management either your career has been shook up

for for the worst either you're not playing at all out here playing every game i mean pat williams just played all 82 you know zach the reason why Zach's trade value could and should be high, one of the reasons that I don't think is talked about as much as it should be, is that the NBA got a chance to see him the first year after that knee procedure. And he did the whole load management back-to-back thing because of the organization. He didn't want to do it, but he did it for the first month. And then he ended up playing, what, 60 some odd games in a row. So he proved to everybody

that, hey, I'll be out here for at least 65 of these joints for you because I had this surgery. Not, I'm not going to be able to play

because my knee isn't working or I'm not feeling good. And it's the first year of that big deal too. So I think that makes him that much more attractive option as well. So it sounds like

you're leaning toward trade, pick Zach, basically trade the Rosen, let Zach build up his value as the number one option on a, on a team where he's now averaging 30 games, something like that. Find some sort of point guard for him and kind of see where you are in

December. Find out what you got. Cause he'd be more of an asset in December, January if he's putting up 30 a game than he probably is right now. The trade that makes the most sense to me is the Rosen and Simons and the Bulls getting, you know, they relax their protections on a pick and get another pick. I'd do that in the heartbeat.

Dame gets another veteran. Yeah. Maybe you figure out a way. Could Vucevic be in that? Something. But I think having that protected pick, which is holding Portland hostage, could be used to your advantage.

I would do that in the heartbeat. You know why? Because that would make sure, that would ensure that the Bulls would not finish last in three-point attempts in this modern game. I like Simons. I'd actually, to me, that's a no-brainer. I think he came in here last year and put 40 on us or something.

There's a lot to be liked. And that was on the top five, top six defense at the time as well. So he's one of those dudes who I feel like if the game teaches him the feel that he needs, then he'll be nice. If not, then shout out to Monta Ellis. We'll see another dude who can score at a high clip and not really refine his game maybe as much

as his organization needs him to. He's another secret young guy too. Here's the thing. I think the Bulls are going to be more interesting over these next five days. They are like plan B for all these different teams. Like,

Oh, Dame staying shit. We got to get him some help. Well, there's not a lot of veterans hanging around, ready to be traded and same for Miami. So who knows? It can go a bunch of ways.

All right, before we go, have you talked yourself into a bear season with a quarterback who has not really shown that he can complete a 10 yard pass? Hey, listen, if you are, and I'll make this clear about this bear season, if you are looking for someone to apologize about how excited he is about the football that he is getting ready to watch, then, you know,

I ain't in that line. I am not apologizing about the excitement that I have. I think they're going to be the second best team in the NFC North. Okay. I thought you were going to say NFC. I was about to do a triple take. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no.

I usually. Wait, so who do you think is going to be the best team? Detroit? Yeah. I think Detroit. I think Detroit is going to be around a 10-win team. There's too much hype for them. Not hype.

I think, trust me, this baseball season, you've seen the AL Central and the NL Central. They're two of the worst divisions in baseball, but you know where your team should fill in. I think the NFC North is going to be one of the worst divisions in football, but I think a 10-7 record might win it for you. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bears go 7-10. I would not be surprised at all. They got some professionals on the defensive side of the football this year. And if Justin Fields can just get that feel, you know, we don't find out either way because Ryan Poles got a couple of first round picks heading into next year's draft with Caleb Williams and a few other guys who are attractive. So this is the,

this is the year to figure out who you truly are, Justin. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm enthused for, I'm enthused for. Well, for the Chicago fans listening, I'm in an ale keeper league where

we have Eloy Jimenez, Tim Anderson, and Andrew Vaughn and the Tim Anderson thing. We spent $31 on what a rollercoaster. Unbelievable. A lot of off, off field drama. He's sitting 200. He just was hurt. I think he might have gotten benched last week. And the White Sox are terrible. So that'll be another thing. You'll have a lot of White Sox trades probably coming up.

There you go. There you go. Looking forward to trade season this early in the goddamn baseball season. White Sox trade season. All right. You listen to Jason on the full go. If there's some Bull there's some, uh,

bulls trades, you will be all over them. I'll make some up. I'll make my spidey senses. I feel like the bulls are going to be involved in stuff. So there you go. Good to see you. I hope good to be seen,

brother. Thank you. As always. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers,

host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, it's been a while since we talked baseball on this podcast.

It's been a while for my longtime, longtime friend, college roommate, lover. Oh, no, but just college roommate. John O'Connell, a.k.a. Jacko, had to come on. We had to talk Yanks. I'm just slowly getting into the baseball season. No, we had to.

I was so into the basketball season and obviously the Celtics run and the Red Sox weren't that good. So now, now I've been getting back into the baseball season and a couple of things have jumped out. One is that Otani has moved into this. I'm trying to think who was the last guy that when he came to your town, everybody was like, Oh my God, I got tickets to see Otani on Saturday night. Who was the last baseball player we had like that? Pedro? Well, I suppose. Not for me, but for others, sure. Pedro.

I don't know. Steroid Bonds? Yeah, Steroid Bonds. Yeah, absolutely. McGuire, that type of chase. McGuire's a good one. I was not an Otani believer, but I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. How can you not be a believer now? The guy is just incredible. In this day and age,

to do that on both sides of the ball is just, it's incredible. I don't fully understand it. He's first in homers and he's second in strikeouts. And it seems like he has a chance to be in the 50 Homer, 250 strikeout club.

That's crazy. They actually, I mean, the big thing we've talked about this for in the pod, but you know, when you're not in the playoffs, nobody cares. And it seems like they actually might have a chance to at least play some

playoff games. So that will push her down the level. How close? I don't even remember how close were the Yankees to signing him. I don't think that close. I don't think he wanted he's one of these guys that didn't want to play on the east coast I think he wanted to be on the west coast I think it's his his wife or something isn't isn't his wife like a big star in Japan and I think he wanted to be on the west coast like easier to fly there or whatever I don't think he was ever close to being Yankee

yeah that's why even in free agency when people are like, oh, Steve Cohen can't wait to give him a blank check, but he may not want to be a Met for any number of reasons, but partly because it's in New York and it's on the East Coast. So I wouldn't be so sure about that. Yeah, it'd be fun to see him on the Dodgers.

It's not even a big market thing. To me, it's a playoff thing. Tampa and Houston are in the playoffs every year and they're not big markets, but to just have him play meaningless six months of baseball and then he disappears. Well, that's why I'm like Mike Trout has been wasted there because, you know,

Mike Trout for years was the best player in baseball, but he never was in the post season. So, you know, to really get a true measure of what Mike Trout is, you need to see him under the crucible of the postseason, or you just want to see him in the postseason to make it more exciting, right?

And he never gets there. And so now you hope the same thing for Ohtani, I guess, that he gets there and see what he does under the hot lights. We'll see. But I guess the difference is, it's the joke we always used to make when the Hall of Fame started to get weird. Who was the first guy where we were like, wait, what?

Because was it Harold Baines? Was somebody like Harold Baines where we were like, Harold Baines? Absolutely. But even before that, who was the kind of, I'm drawing a blank now. There was a couple of like, oh, who was the second baseman on the Astros? Craig Biggio. That's the one I was trying to think of. Yeah.

Now, Craig Biggio, we're going to get blowback on this because I think he has 3,000 hits and whatever. Yeah, fine. Was Craig Biggio a difference maker? Were you going to bounce your grandkids on your knee and be like, that was Craig Biggio? It's ridiculous. There's just an eye test to these things. Craig Biggio, I'm sure he was a fine player.

He was a good player. But he's not an all-timer. He's not in the pantheon of all-timers. Give me a break. And then they just degenerated into Harold Baines, which is a farce. And Scott Rowland, which is another one. I mean, I guess he was great defensively for a hundred years for the Cardinals or whatever, but like really Scott Rowland, this is the hall of famer. I didn't watch him play and be like, oh, there's a hall of famer. Give me a break. Well, you were the one who I was like,

would I bounce my, well, I'd be bouncing my grandkids on my lap and telling them about so-and-so someday the hall of fame. I felt like it used to be that way. And I think it's shifted in all the sports because there's, there's more people pushing the advanced stats, but,

uh, yeah, but Otani seems to be the rarest of rare where it's like, wow, I'm going to remember when I went to go see this guy in person, which doesn't happen anymore. Judge has a piece of that. I mean, because Judge is so big in person, you're like, oh my God, look at that guy. Right. Yeah. Judge and Otani are bounce your grandkids on your knee type guys. No question about it. Yeah. Judge because of his size. He beat a legendary Yankee record and Otani because he's one of the best pitchers

in baseball and one of the best hitters in baseball in 2023. That wasn't a rarity in 1915, but in 2023, that's a rarity. Plus Judge, he's made round two a couple times. Right, right. Won a playoff game here and there. Sure, yeah.

Where are you standing with the Yankees? Because I have some stats for you. I don't know if you want to go through any of this. I'll tell you where I stand with the Yankees. I stand on the edge of a cliff waiting to jump. That's where I stand with the Yankees. So, one World Series appearance since 2003. Yeah. In the playoffs against Houston, Boston, and Tampa,

they've been knocked out seven straight times against those three teams. Sure. Hal Steinbrenner took over in December 2008 and you won the World Series the next year with a team that he really didn't put together. Correct. And then since then,

we're heading 15-year anniversary for him. Aaron Boone is in his sixth year as your manager. Sure. And Cashman, I don't even know how... What's that? 20 years? How far does Cashman go back? 22? Well, no longer. I mean, he was there as assistant GM in 96,

but I think, I believe, and I could be wrong on this, but I think Bob Watson stepped down officially in like late nineties. Yeah. So maybe like 25 years of Cashman. And I guess, you know, he was in charge.

So we'll give him credit for 98, 99, 2000. And then they went to world series in 2001, 2003, and they won a world, went to and won a World Series in 2009. But since then, they have not been to, not only have they not won a World Series, they have not been to one since 2009.

And it's 2023, according to my calendar. That's got to be the longest. I guess you had a longer drought, probably from 81 to 95. So we're heading toward longest World Series drought ever. 96. Yeah, their longest, you know, they didn't go from 64 to 76, which where they had been before that was a long time. And then they went from 78 to 96. Well, they went in 81, but they went from 78 to 96. Well, they went in 81, but they went from 78 to

96 before winning one. But yes, they did go into strike short in the year in 81 and lost to the Dodgers. So 81 to 96, it's 15 years, and we're coming up on 14 years now since they've been in one. So where are you standing emotionally? I mean, we're old. We're getting crankier in our

early mid-50s here. Well, you know, the old me and, you know, longtime fans of the BS Report remember my previous rants about Mariano in my younger days. And I don't know if it's the quality of getting older. It's just, I mean, this team has, you know, they've been the same team for six years. You know, Girardi took a team that, they took a team to the seventh game of the ALCS against the team that was cheating. He gets shown the door and you're kind of hopeful then because they were the, you know, they took a team to the seventh game of the ALCS against the team that was cheating. Yeah.

He gets shown the door and you're kind of hopeful then because they were the, you know, the quote unquote baby bombers that, you know, Gary Sanchez and they had judge and they had all these young guys and then they get Stanton and you're like, Oh my God, the sky's the limit. And then for six years that, you know, they bring in Boone and they have, you know, the full cashman operation and their system. And it's been the same team for six years. And they've had the same problems for six years.

They have a team that cannot get a clutch hit to save its life. Now they just can't hit, period. But they've had the exact same team. So at this point, after six years, when you're banging your head against the wall at a certain point, you can't really get emotionally involved in banging your head against the wall. It's like, I mean, yeah, I watched them. And what really angers me more than the result is just that you know the banal quotes from boone or this you know corporate speak from cashman where he sounds like the regional manager

of a verizon chain or something and he has these corporate platitudes where i want to pull my hair out and then you have the owner who comes out and the yankees who you know have not been to a world series since 2009 and he comes out and says oh it's only june i don't know why everybody's all upset well they're all upset because they're 10 and a half games behind the race they're barely over 500 and they've been in ebbs and they're more than that they're unwatchable like if you you know i interact and follow a lot of yankees twitter this may be the angry side of yankees twitter but like like the the angry side of Yankees Twitter, but the people that watch this team on a regular basis, they can't watch them because they can't hit, they don't score.

They get no hit by guys that are journeyman pitchers who are awful. They're not facing Verlander in his prime, and they're not facing Sandy Koufax, for God's sake. They're facing guys that are not good, and they can't hit. And they're a collection of guys that have no position to play. They're wildly out of position. They're over the hill. They're banged up. They can't get clutch hits or any hits.

And they just keep doing the same thing over and over again. And the ownership is like, eh, you know, we'll get the playoffs. And that seems to be the mantra of the team now, like the voice of the team and the ownership and everybody. Well, you get the playoffs and then it's a crapshoot. Then you just roll the dice. Now, I don't know of anybody that wants to engage in any pursuit, sports, business, romance, anything. Well, it's all just a crapshoot.

Like, why make an effort, right? And I'll tell you who it's not a craps tell you, it's not a crapshoot for, it's not a crapshoot for the Astros because they go to World Series. It's not a crapshoot for the Red Sox over the past 20 years because they go and win World Series. It's not a crapshoot for the Dodgers. It's not a crapshoot for the Braves.

But the Yankees seem to think, well, we have this system and we get in the playoffs and then stuff happens in the playoffs and that's the way it goes and we'll run it back next year and maybe we'll get a different result. It's lunacy. Do you feel like the Yankee prospects that they keep telling us

how amazing they're going to be, that there's... Because I've noticed this in my L-Keeper League. We had a choice a couple years ago with Volpe versus Marcelo Mair with the number one pick. And at that point, there had been so many Yankee hype guys that we almost couldn't parse through that. I remember asking you about it.

I was like, this guy's 5'10". What happened to him that one minor league season? So we ended up taking Mair. Volpe, who they threw in the fire this year and was supposed to be the next Derek Jeter. Maybe stop with the next Derek Jeter stuff? Right. I don't know. You just had an eight-part documentary and maybe don't compare other players

to him? Derek Jeter's an all-timer. Like, the Yankee fan of my age got spoiled with the core four because you hit on all these guys, right? And that was Gene Michael, who was a genius. And Cashman gets a lot of... Listen, Cashman's the GM for five World Series. Those are his World Series.

He's the guy. He's the GM. He's just the GM from the beginning once. He gets five rings. He does get credit for that. But those teams were put together by Gene Michael. He was the genius. He was able to run the Yankees when Steinbrenner was suspended and couldn't make foolish trades.

And he's the guy that saw these prospects and saw something in them and kept them around. But when everybody gets excited about Yankees prospects and you go down the line after the core four, they developed Robinson Cano, who was an international signing player. You don't know what his age was, the whole nine yards. So he's not a traditional like draft without a high school prospect that the Yankees system worked. The guy, they were never high on Judge because they thought Judge was too big. And they thought they didn't love Judge. They thought he was DH. They didn't think he'd be a good outfielder.

So the one guy who's an all-timer now, they were wrong about. They loved Gary Sanchez, who was going to be the second coming of Johnny Bench, who they then ran out of town. The guy they loved, loved, loved was Greg Bird. Like Greg Bird was going to be the second coming at Don Mattingly and his swing was perfect for Yankee Stadium.

What a player. And everybody knows what Greg Bird was. They go out and make the trade for Chapman with the Cubs and they get Gleyber Torres, who was the number one prospect in all of baseball, allegedly, right? And Gleyber Torres, as much as his head leaves his body sometimes during games he's okay but he has not lived up to number one prospect in the sport hype by any stretch of the imagination you know he's not a Wander Franco he's not an Acuna he's not this kid that just

came up with the red suit let the world on fire the Yankees traded Andrew Miller to get Clint Frazier who was one of the top five prospects oh yeah oh his lightning fast bat Clint Frazier, who was one of the top five prospects. Oh, his lightning fast bat, Clint Frazier, Red Thunder. Oh, he's great. He's done nothing. So this off season, they go re-sign Judge, which I mean, they had to do. There was no way you could let Judge walk because they're- Nine for 360? Yeah. It's a lot of money. I know the back end of that contract is going to be rough, but you had to do that. You had to. You couldn't let Judge go after hitting 62 home runs. And what he means is the face of the franchise and everything else.

You couldn't let him go. But then they signed Radon, who's been hurt all year, and he is what we'll see what he is. Oh, man, who could have guessed that? Right. If you get him off the one healthy season, he can win a six-year deal. Right. But, you know, I didn't hate that because it's just money,

and they needed another guy behind Cole. On paper, they had a really good rotation, which hasn't lived up to the billing. But they signed Judge. And then there's this thing, these rumors from Michael Kay and others. Oh, they're not done yet. Well, guess what? They were done. And they're like, we can't sell this same shit sandwich to the fan base again.

So we need to sell them on Volpe. So they had the hype machine and overdrive that Volpe was the next Derek Jeter, right? He, whoa, he was as good as making a big signing. And they put all kinds of pressure on the kid because for the last three years, they've needed a shortstop. And there was all these shortstops that came down the pike, whether it was Corey Seager, whether it was, I didn't want to be part of them, but Carlos Correa, and mercifully, they avoided that. All these guys, you know, there was a ton, a litany of shortstops that were big names

that they could have gone out and signed. And they were like, no, no, no. Corey Seager's a tough one because he's, Corey Seager's crushing it. Exactly. Exactly. And his swing is perfect for Yankee Stadium. Yeah.

And that was just giving them money. But it was like, no, no, we have Volpe and we have Peraza. We have these two, you know, shortstops of the future. And, you know, third baseman or shortstop of the future. And they put all the hype in the world on Volpe, who's played 34 games at AAA. He didn't really light the world on fire at AA,

if you look at his numbers, but they're like, oh, you got to look in-depth in the numbers. Volpe, and he's the steals. And he has stolen a lot of bases this year. He does have double-digit home runs, but he's also booted a lot of balls. He's struck out a ton. Is he hitting like 180? Yeah, he's hitting 180 and he's not been great. He's

not like set the world on fire as a prospect. So, you know, you look at their history, recent history with prospects and everybody fell in love with this because it was like, we need something to fall in love with. We need something to be excited about. So we'll get excited about Volpe. And now here we are because it was like, we need something to fall in love with. We need something to be excited about, so we'll get excited about Volpe. And now here we are, where he's like,

he's, eh. And they have Peraza, who's actually doing great. I think he's got 11 home runs in AAA, and they won't bring him up because Cashman would have to admit that the Volpe thing was a mistake. And I figure, and they probably figure if they send him down to work on his swing in AAA that he's done. His head is gone

and forget about that. He's like a child actor. He becomes Corey Haim. Basically. Basically. Let's hope it has a better outcome, Corey Feldman. But yeah, so they're not going to do that and they never want to admit mistakes

with anything. And it's like if you look at their history their recent history, they were like, we can't go sign Bryce Harper because we have Miguel Andahar or we have Cliff Frazier. Oh, he was another good run. What about Dominguez? Dominguez. Oh, we got Dominguez coming up. Well, I, and I went to see Hartford has a double a team, the Hartford shout out to the Hartford yard goats, the college Rockies team. And they played the Somerset Patriots a couple of weeks ago. And my buddies and I went to the game, which is the Yankees double-A

team. You know, Dominguez is like 5'8". He's like 5'8", or like 5'9". I thought he was like a giant guy. He's 5'8". He hits these, you know, there's all these videos of him hitting moonshots in the Dominican off of his uncle. Well, you know, I can probably hit some moonshots off of

his uncle, too. So I'm not sure that's the best way to judge things. And he's been good. He's okay. He's got double-digit homers, I believe. But again, he's not like a world beater. He's not a phenomenal prospect, but they're going to hype him up, too, because they have him and they have this guy, Austin Wells,

who's been a catching prospect, I swear, for 10 years, it seems like. And Florio, who's been a prospect forever and can never seem to make it at the major league level. So either trade these, but they won't trade these guys. They could have traded Volpe for Castillo to the Reds as a pitcher last year. No, no. Volpe's untouchable. We can't possibly do that. We can't do that. And so he's untouchable. He's the next great thing. And then Peraza's untouchable, but we can't bring him up. So whatever their organizational philosophy is, if one exists, it doesn't make any earthly

sense to anybody. Well, you left out the part that they have a $290 million payroll somehow. Right, right. It's like how the Red Sox, we spent like $210 million last year for this shitty team. And it's like, wait, what? We paid the luxury tax? We weren't even good. Part of that is because they had to run Gary Sanchez out of town.

And believe me, Gary Sanchez had worn out as well. Yeah, you were driving. He'd been given every opportunity. I'm not lamenting the loss of Gary Sanchez. Don't let me tell you that way. But they had to go get Josh Donaldson, right? They had to go get IKF. But the Twins were like, if you want I want ikf you got to take 50 million dollars of

josh donalds and from what i've read and heard like the minnesota twins organization and team was high-fiving the day that john they got some sucker to take josh donalds who is a bad clubhouse guy who got into the whole thing with jackie robinson you know calling tim ederson jackie robinson and he's an awful player he He's terrible. He is washed up. I understand he was once good. He is terrible. So that's $25 million of their $290 million. But they won't admit it a mistake. They finally admit a mistake with Aaron Hicks, who of course now is setting the world on fire in Baltimore. But again, I'm not lamenting the loss of Aaron Hicks. It was time for Aaron Hicks to go. That was my favorite when Aaron Hicks turned into a 30-30 Aaron Hicks again.

I know. And he literally might be 30-30 for the Orioles at half a season. But they won't admit defeat with Donaldson and just cast him off. And it's the arrogance. They had Gio Urshela, who was a serviceable guy. He was a fan favorite. He was like a blue-collar guy. He put up some big numbers.

That was like a feather in Cashman's cap. They found this guy, Urshela, from nowhere. And he did great. He was capable of third baseman. And in spring training, when they made the trade for Josh Donaldson, Cashman's like, Urshela, he's good, but he's no Josh Donaldson. No, he's not. He's actually

good. Josh Donaldson is not. He stinks. He's awful. But they won't admit a, so what happens, though? But what... Does any... Does Boone get fired? Does Cashman get fired? What is the outcome? We're now almost in July.

They're barely a wildcard team. Well, the problem is they're the Knicks where you have this owner who's the problem. The owner is awful where you have this owner who's the problem, right? The owner is awful. Right. You have this owner who inherited the team from his father, and his father did not want him to run the team.

It was supposed to be the father's son-in-law, but he was cheating on the daughter and had a DUI, so he was out the door. And by default, it went to Hal. So is this like a Kendall-Wright thing or a Conor-Wright thing or a combo? I don't know. Maybe a combo. But I don't think Hal has the fire in his belly thing or a combo? I don't know. Maybe a combo. But I don't think Hal has the fire in his belly for baseball, really. I don't think he loves it.

And he seems to – I'm going to play armchair psychologist here. Every time he's interviewed over – because they have these disastrous, you know, half a season, and he goes out and talks to the media, and everybody's always like, what would George do? You know, and George would have fired Boone six times over by now. And, you know, I lived through the George area. I didn't, I never loved George Snyder. He was a lunatic. And he flew off the handle and he was an embarrassment and did awful, embarrassing things. But just my father, he made some mistakes. He didn't have to fire people. You're right. But you know what? Sometimes people need to be fired.

Cashman has been there too long. Has anybody been the GM of any team for 25 years in this day and age? Of a baseball team? You've been there for 25 years? Branch Rickey? Yeah. Not in this day and age. Or Red Auerbach with the Celtics. But it's not in this day and age. I read our back with the Celtics,

but it's not in this day and age. Right. Maybe. But like Pat Riley at least has success. They go to finals, you know, sorry. But they go to finals.

They win things. Cashman has done nothing, but he's like, you know, I read once or heard on the radio where once they said, oh, he's like the third Steinbrenner son. So he's never getting fired

because you're not going to fire your brother, right? Yeah. And Boone, you know, Boone is Cashman's handpicked guy. He's there and he just does what the front office tells him to do. And he's not going to leave. And Hal was in his most recent interview when he's like, I don't understand why the fans are mad.

He's like, well, if they were healthy and everybody's healthy and they don't make the playoffs, he's. He's like, well, if they were healthy and everybody's healthy and they don't make the playoffs, he's going to ask some questions. Well, here's a question. Okay, Cashman's untouchable and Boone is untouchable, I guess, much to my chagrin. How about the analytics department, right? Can we change it up a little bit?

Like, I understand I'm not going to be an old man yelling at a cloud saying, oh, we can't have analytics. But can we maybe get some new guys in there and new computers and a new algorithm? Because they've had the same analytics guy, this guy, Michael Fishman, as their analytics guru since 2005. How's he working out? How's that working out? He's been there since 2005 and they've won and gone to one World Series with an astronomical payroll. All the advantages the Yankees have, their own television network, the history, the stadium,

New York City, the money, everything else, the payroll, an unlimited budget. All the RSNs falling apart for every other team. That's another advantage that's happening. Right, right. And they have all these advantages

and they've gone, I understand you're not going to win the World Series every year. Can can we go to one in 15 years is that too much to ask for well do you feel like like who who is the major media person now because you know back in the old days this would have been mike and the mad dog or even old old days like dick young mike lupico there would have been like these big ass media people just going after the Steinbrenners. Who is that now? Well, it's Michael Kay, but he's in a tough spot because he's employed by the team.

He's the broadcaster. And none of the newspaper guys do anything. I'll watch these press conferences. Cashman had a press conference a couple weeks ago, I guess after they got swept by the Red Sox. And they don't ask him a single tough question. They just ask him these pablum questions. I have a question for him.

How do you have a $290 million payroll and they don't have a left fielder? They have IKF, who's a shortstop third baseman who's playing center field. They have Jake Bowers, who's a minor league first baseman who is playing out left field their left fielder was aaron hicks and they had nobody beyond that this is after they've tried to make miguel andahar an outfielder the yankees have this thing where they just think anybody can play the outfield anybody could be an outfielder it doesn't matter i was thinking about the other day like if you put together a fantasy baseball team you're like well i need a third baseman i need a second baseman i need outfielders. The Yankees don't think that.

The Yankees just go get a guy and then they'll figure out some position for him. And the other night they lost the game because IKF, God bless him, who's a stand-up guy. I have a lot of respect for him because he's come out and he's like, I'll do anything I can to help this team. And he's been a stand-up guy after losses. He had a catchable ball in center field, which he dropped because he's not a fucking centerup guy after losses. He had a catchable ball in center field, which he dropped because he's not a fucking center fielder. And he came out and said, this one's on me. Instead of saying, we have a $290

million payroll. Why am I playing the outfield? That would be funny if he spun it the other way. He's like, this is not my fault! He should have. He should have been like, I should have been third base. Why am I in center field? Right? Why am I playing center field but does the hard hitting

New York press ever ask Cashman that so we could get we could get some you know regional manager of a Verizon answer answer about that about some gibberish

honest to God how do you have a $290 million payroll without a fucking outfielder how in Boston I feel like it's been way harsher

like the way New York used to be, especially about Heimblum. And, you know, I mean, what the Yoshida thing I think has probably saved his job because he's been so much fun to watch. Right. But for the most part, like, yikes. Well, the Boston media, I mean, they have guys that are prickly and they ask tough questions. And, you know, the funny thing is I happened to be sick last week and I was home. So I was watching the Michael Kay show on ESPN or on Yes Network during the day when I'm usually not home. And they were talking about the Yankees and he's reticent to say anything.

And I'm not killing him. He's in a tough spot. But him and his co-hosts, they're all like, you know, I'm not sure who's to blame for this. Is it the players? I don't know. And it's like, well, how about the GM who has a $300 million payroll without enough? Right.

Is maybe that a question? A good place to start is the guy who assembled the roster and overspent on it. And the roster is still not good. You can always start there. You know, what do I want? Josh Donaldson to be better? He is what he is. This is what he's been for several years.

And I read where they've got this guy, Fishman, who's their their analytics guru. He has the job because because way back when he found Nick Swisher and I read this article and he's like, you couldn't look at Nick Swisher's stats from last year. and you found these hidden secrets in the stats. And that's what they did for Josh Donaldson. And the Yankees have this thing now where their team is so smart. They're super smart, right? Aaron Hicks was a high draft pick. He was like the number three or five draft pick in the draft. And he went to the Twins and he was awful. But the Yankees were like, no, the Twins are dumb. We're so smart with our system.

We're going to bring Aaron Hicks in and we're going to figure it out with our wizardry and our secrets and everything. We're going to do it. Well, guess what? Aaron Hicks sucks. That's when you're right. And then they said, now we're going to work our secret wizardry on Josh Donaldson,

whose numbers show he sucks now, too, and is washed up. No, no, no, no, no. You're looking at the wrong stats. You're not looking at the super secret stats. Well, guess what? They brought him in, and guess what? He sucks too. That's what the stats show.

Like, anybody with eyes can see he's done. Aaron Hicks was done. I don't know what magic he's found in Baltimore. Crabs, I guess, are good for him or whatever. Old Bay. But they're done. There are no secret stats where you're so much smarter than everybody. I don't care what

Michael Fishman's computer shows or secrets. It does not work. It hasn't worked in 15 goddamn years. So how did they get Nestor? They're still doing the same thing. Where did Nestor come from?

Well, that's, I mean, yeah, they did find him off the scrap heap in the Mexican league or something and he was great last year. They found a couple scrap heap guys I think would be the one thing if you great last year. They found a couple of scrap heap guys.

I think would be the one thing if you're defending them. Yeah. I'm not going to say they haven't gone, they've gone over, but they've, they've missed on the big ones. And we're, and when you're the Yankees and,

and Hal apparently is like obsessed with the Rays, that the Rays have a $14 payroll and they're somehow good every year. Well, obviously their analytics guys are better. Like maybe I'm not saying obviously in today's day and age, you're not going to good every year. Well, obviously their analytics guys are better. Like maybe I'm not saying obviously in today's day and age, you're not going to have no analytics. Look what I like the days of a guy, a bench coach like Don Zimmer with tobacco juice, spilling down his gray flannel sweatshirt. Yes. Those days are gone. Like, that's what I would go with. I want to go with his gut to make my decisions and not somebody who went to Dartmouth

and knows how to operate it, you know, played stratomatic baseball. But that those days are gone. But could we get a better group of guys from Dartmouth with better computers? Is that possible? Like, obviously, this one is not working, but they think their system works aces. And then you get to the playoffs and then it's like, well, everybody's equal and who knows what could happen. Well, I was thinking about you this week because, you know, all the high school graduations are happening. Yes. My daughter's class. So it's basically people born in the 2005 range and the Yankees won the World Series in 2009.

You know, you're four years old. You probably don't remember that. There's this whole generation of people, Johnny, now moving into college who don't remember when the Yankees were champs. It's got to hurt. It's true. It's true. They're wandering the wilderness out in the desert. I know I'm right there with them. Luckily in my life, I was able to see them when I was there for the, you know, my formative years, I was older, but the glory years of the nineties, I was cognizant of them and alive, able to enjoy them. You have an eight-part documentary about Derek Jeter you can just go to whenever you want.

You can just pop that in anytime. Stream that. Go to ESPN Plus, watch part four again. Oh, that's another thing too. I mentioned him before and he's the bane of my existence because somehow and I don't know why or how Nick Swisher has become the face of the franchise.

Oh, he's like your Brian Scalabrini? What's that? Yeah, basically. Yeah, exactly. Nick Swisher was not a great Yankee. He wasn't a great anything. I'm sure he's an affable guy and everybody seems to like him. I'm sure I'd like him. But he's not the face of the fucking New York

Yankees. And why is it that an old-timer's day or spring training in the old days, they would drag out Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford. These were the faces of the New York Yankees, right? Success. And now I don't know where Posada is or Pettit or Mariano or Jeter. Why aren't they the face of the franchise? Why is Nick Swisher the face of the franchise?

And that's one of the problems, is they have this false Nick Swisher swagger, unearned swagger of like, oh, yeah. A couple years ago when Boone's like, well, I guess the league caught up to us. Caught up to you? How? What? Where? What have you won? They haven't caught up to you.

What are you talking about? So they have this unearned sense of swagger or he's always like, oh, look at our roster. We're going to figure it out. Based on what? Based on what? Are they going to figure it out?

They're not going to figure anything out. They're not any good. Except for Judge. So you have Judge. So Judge almost becomes more important at this point. Oh, hugely. And because, you know,

when he broke his, tore his ligaments in his toe, they've been awful. Their offense has been the worst in the sport i think since the in a couple weeks since he's been out but that's as great as judge is and he's great he's a phenomenal player you can't be built around one guy right like the yankees in the 20s they had babe ruth babe ruth but it wasn't called murderer row it. It was called Murderer's Row. There was Tony Lazeri. There was Luke Gehrig. There was Earl Combs. Whoever else. You had multiple guys. That's a problem, too, when you have only

one guy who's a capable all-world player with an almost $300 million payroll. And he goes out and they're like, Jesus, I don't know. We're done. We're done for. Even the 50s, when they had Mantle, they had Yogi Berra. It wasn 50s when they had, you know, Mantle, they had Yogi Berra.

It wasn't just Mantle. It wasn't just Mantle and Berra. You had Berra. You had Whitey Ford, you know, or Hank Bauer. You know, you had all these guys that were like credible offensive players before my time in the 70s. You know, Reggie Jackson got hurt. You still had Greg Nettles and you still had Chris Chambliss and you had Thurman Munson.

You can't have a franchise with one guy with almost $300 million payroll. Well, you know it's... You have the fourth best record in the American League tied with Toronto, but I think Toronto... They've kind of had the season from hell and the fact that they're seven games over 500

is a little alarming. Then Houston, who's 42 and 36, same thing, bunch of injuries, but you feel like they're going to be lingering. Angels are six games over. My team's going to fade. Probably nobody else is going to be lingering around there,

but it's weird with this wildcard system. You can feel like you're having the shittiest season possible, but then it's like, all right, when we get in there, it's a little different than the other sports. And last year, the Phillies were brutal and had a good second half, and they got in the wild card and rode it

all the way to the World Series. So what's your move? What would be the move where it's like, oh my god, we're in the ALCS, and it's because this happened. So you don't even think there's a move. There's nobody you're scouting. I don't have any...

I mean, you know, they've talked about, you know, Bellinger from the Cubs or something, but I can't say that that really excites me. He'd be better. At least he's a capable... He has an outfield glove. He's familiar with where left field is. See, that's good.

That's a start. He stood on the left field side of the diamond. Right. He knows how to walk out to the outfield. Because there's some White Sox guys that I think are about

to become available. And I think those guys, you know, whether they trade G Alito, I don't know, but like Tim Anderson, they're dying to trade and people like that.

Yeah, he'd be good. Well, that would mean they have to get rid of Josh Donaldson because I can't see them having lockers next to each other. So I'd be happy to do that just for would mean they have to get rid of Josh Donaldson because I can't see them having lockers next to each other. So I'd be happy to do that just for that.

You'd have to send Josh Donaldson packing on that one. So I would take a chance for that. Well, the thing is, Cashman is the guy making these moves, though. So what faith am I going to have in anything? And I'm not sure what they have to move in terms of prospect. I don't know. Are teams all after

Dominguez? Maybe. Are they after Peraza because he's still doing well in AAA? Peraza has some stuff. Yeah. The Volpe card would be fun. Austin Wells, who's a catching prospect. Teams need catchers. I think they maybe have some, you know, I can't say I know the

whole depth of their organization to know like some hot pitching prospect in high A or something. Yeah, they're like half decent. Nothing amazing. I don't think their farm system is hugely regarded. So I don't even know what blockbuster

is out there. And the problem is, like you say, because of the third wildcard now, everybody still thinks they're in it, right? It's like false hope. Yeah. You're not going to have the trades of the old days where this team is like, ah, I'm 14 games out of first place, we're done. They're still in the wild card. So I don't know who's out there that would help them.

You know, I don't know. Like, I keep looking and I'm like, who's the magic bullet that would turn it around? But I'm just past the point of having any faith that there's going to be something that's going to, like, light a spark. You know, you'd hope maybe they'd bring up some kids. Sometimes that does the trick. You know, last year they brought up some, I think it was last year. They brought up some guys and they were like, you know, some rookies,

some guys, they were speedsters and they did some things and they got a little fire, but I don't know. I just think, I just think it's a organizationally, like they're just so depressing, like from the top down, it's just like, I mean, it needs like a full complete overhaul and i just they're just not going to do that do you feel last question do you feel like everybody who roots for the yankees is starting to feel this or are you on like yeah are you on no you and jj seem to be on the crazier side of this well we are on the crazier side but i mean i you know i feel like john the baptist on this i was the voice in the wilderness and I think others are following me now. So, um, like, you know, I don't know, maybe it's just the Yankee accounts I follow. Even like mainstream Yankee accounts, you know, guys that are guys that are in a business with the Yankees, they're much more pessimistic than they've been in past years. Just like, if I take the pulse of Yankee Twitter,

I think the fans have had it up to here. They've had it up to here with, with Cashman in the same platitudes. They've had it up to here with Boone and his post game nonsense. And just like the happy talk and, you know, being everybody's like big brother instead of being a manager. And everybody knows he's a show for the front office. So,

and how, like when Hal came out and was like, I don't understand why the fans are upset. It's only the second week of June or whatever. People really reacted viscerally to that. So I think like 15 years, 14 years since a World Series, even going to one, especially when you had the hope in 2017 and it's been six years of no hope and failure. I think it's really reached the breaking point. So JJ and I may be out there, but everybody's kind of with us. As somebody who hates the Yankees, obviously, it delights me to know not only the 14-year drought, but the misplaced anger toward the Astros that they cheated you out of it. That's the cherry on the sundae for me.

I just want you to know that. Well, i'm just using that as an example of that's further proof of how much that team overachieved and you and then you had a clean house after that they had to get rid of gerardi because he was too mean and no no i've been anywhere close since i've heard this over and over again from yankee fans in my life where like they the Astros might have stolen one from us I just like that the Yankees are now in the position of blaming other teams for their lack of success makes me happy

no well they did cheat I will say that but I'm not blaming them for their lack of success but Cashman does you know a couple years ago Cashman came out and had the most asinine thing I've ever heard a professional sports person say to say well I consider that we went to a World Series in 2017 because they were cheating. That's what losers say.

You can't come out and say, we kind of got a sort of pennant. No, you didn't. No, you did not. Those don't count. The Yankees are like the Colts. I'm going to do a drug buy on the Colts here. When the Colts hung up the AFC finalist banner,

the Patriots would kick their ass every year. They had to resort to the AFC finalist banner. And now like the voice of the Yankees is like, well, they've made the playoffs, you know, 15 out of the past 20 years or whatever. When you, when you've won 27 world championships, like we're not hanging playoff banners anymore. Making the playoffs is not the goal. And you can't pat yourself on the back and be like, made the playoffs when there's three wild cards now or even when there was two wild cards you're not patting yourself on the back about making the playoffs i'm sorry you're not not when you have 27 titles you're beyond that

if you're the celtics like the celtics are not hanging up playoff banners right nah you know the patriots are beyond AFC championship banners. They're not hanging those up. Well, we were one of the premier franchises. We might be headed back. Well, that's might be headed back to the AFC's champion banner.

Could be in our future. Maybe. But yeah, the time Mac Jones led us to the 27 title. Part of me almost thinks like part of me almost thinks it's almost a little bit of a Ted Lasso

thing. Like, you know, the first season of Ted Lasso. Spoiler alert for you folks that haven't seen the first season of Ted Lasso. Where the owner, Rebecca, hired Ted Lasso because he was considered to be an oaf. Because her ex-husband loved the soccer team and she wanted to destroy it. Yeah, it was the fucking Major League plot. They absolutely ripped it off. Ripped it off.

Part of me wonders if like hal was always resentful because his father i'm sure his father was an asshole his father because he was an asshole in real life so i'm sure he was a tough father and he loved the yankees and like i'm sure he was an asshole to cashman when he was alive george was so i wonder if the two of them are like we're going to show george we're going to run this team right into the ground so they just have done the same thing for six years. Like they have assigned judge because that would have been too blatant.

But part of me is like, I almost, this is where I am with them, where I half believe the Ted Lasso theory. Are they intentionally trying to ruin the Yankees to get back at George Steinbrenner from beyond the grave? Like part of me actually believes that. That's where I am right now. That's my mental state.

I wouldn't have totally bought that theory until what they did to Volpe. They basically turned him into Jesus Christ in March. He was just this kid who was about to play shortstop for the Yankees. They raised the hype machine to a 15 out of 10.

I just don't know what the upside of that is. What pushes that theory to be more true too is Josh Donaldson, who's hitting 160. And Cashman comes out the other day and says, well, I think he needs some more runway, whatever the hell that means, more runway to see what kind of offense he can produce. Now, who on earth, he was awful last year.

He was awful this year and got hurt, and he's been awful since he came back from being hurt. And yet they keep running him out there. That sort of makes sense in the Ted Lasso theory because why else are you running out Josh Donaldson to be a key cog in this machine? Why? Why? Interesting. Maybe he's the mole. He's the Ted Lasso in this one, I think. Well, on the bright side, the Carolina Hurricanes Ted Lasso in this one, I think. Well, on the bright side, the Carolina Hurricanes got knocked out of the playoffs, I thought he is. That's true. I was happy about that.

I had that going for me. So that's good. I'm always happy to see that. Right. Absolutely. Took the whale away from you. If I can't have joy, I might as well have hate, you know?

Good to see you. Happy birthday ahead of time next week. Thank you, my friend. I'm sure we'll be talking more baseball as we go along, good to see you happy birthday ahead of time next week thank you my friends I'm sure we'll be talking more baseball as we go along because I think the Red Sox I think everybody's going to linger and it'll come down in the last few weeks and who the hell knows

good to see your smiling face though buddy alright you too when you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that.

In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned.

Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, taping this on a Tuesday. The Bears season two came out a few days ago.

They dropped all of them at once. We had to bring out the big guns, Malé Rubin, Joanna Robinson. You can hear them on the Ringerverse together on the House of R podcast. Joanna and I, we did White Lotus. We did Succession on the Prestige pod. It's been a while for us.

I'd heard about the Bears season two and especially episode six, which we're going to concentrate mostly on here and then talk big picture as well. Episode six, which we're going to concentrate mostly on here and then talk big picture as well. Episode six, we have this and we have Logan Roy dying within two months of each other. We have those two episodes, which were two of the most unsettling, uncomfortable episodes I think I've ever gone through. But this episode six came out of nowhere. There's people in it. Our guy Bernthal is in there, Mallory. Jamie Lee Curtis.

It's just, it's an hour. It's a double episode. And it became the signature episode of not only this season, but of the show. Mallory, you texted me about it first. I hadn't seen it yet. And it's like with this binge thing, I hate it. I hate that you have to tentatively text me and be like, did you see episode six yet? And then I have to go, no, don't tell me. I have to

do that whole thing. Episode six, walk us through your emotions. Midday Saturday, I was desperate for somebody to talk to me about fishes episode six of season two of the bear i had finished the bear by saturday i watched the first five episodes on friday night i watched the the the second half of the season on saturday i couldn't stop and i think generally i feel the same way that you do now about binge watches i wish that everything that we cared about and loved and wanted to talk about could be parceled out on a weekly basis so that we could spend our summer podcasting about the bear and it could dominate conversation and remain in the public consciousness forever this is the rare show though where i'm like this actually is how i

want to watch it and while i lament that it will be contained to such a finite span of time i think the experience of binging the bear approximates what it feels like to be in that kitchen or to be at that family Christmas in episode six. Like there is just a nerve fraying, relentless anxiety that I think is really to the show's credit. I personally can't stop watching it once I start. Fishes, most episodes of the bear are somewhere between like 22 and 28 minutes, right? This is north of. Wait, hold on. Before you get into fishes, can we talk about that binge thing for a second and then get into fishes? Yeah.

I watched the entire season last night and this morning. I'd saved it. I watched, I thought I was going to watch four episodes. I ended up watching eight and I should have stopped after six because six was like almost like a sporting event. Like you just needed to walk around the house and regroup. But then I finished it.

Joanna, do you agree with the mouth theory that this is the rare show that actually binging it makes more sense for how the show is supposed to make you feel? In classic Ruben fashion, she makes like a convincing argument, but she's, she doesn't, she doesn't get me on this one.

I think, I think with the bear season one, because it felt like it came out of nowhere in terms of the cultural conversation, it did linger longer because people just like took a couple of weeks to get into it. It just like people kept checking and checking in. And so we did have a month to six weeks of conversation about the bear for season one, which is what it deserved. And I will be curious to see how long the conversation lingers after like this week, given, you know, FX released the data on how

many people basically did what the three of us did, which is binge it greedily over over the weekend. And I had the same experience. I couldn't get to it Friday or Saturday. So I started watching it on Sunday and I stayed up till three in the morning because I couldn't stop. And I, I don't usually have that reaction to like a binge situation. So I hear you, Mallory. It is a very like compulsive, like I have to, I have to, I have to, but for that convert, that like lingering conversation, I would, you know, well, we know from a ringer standpoint, we would much rather have it prolonged. I, I personally, as much as I enjoyed the binge watch and it almost made me drive to a 7-Eleven and buy some cigarettes last night, I was so stressed out. I think they should have dropped two every week.

And there's enough meat on the two that I feel like we could have gotten the discourse for a few days. What do you think is going to happen? We don't get the, what do you think is going to happen with this show because we're binging it. Anyway, back to Fishes, episode six. So we come off episode five, which was an unusually happy,

peaceful episode of The Bear where it's like, wow, it might actually work out with him and Molly Gordon. Carm brings Claire to the restaurant at the end and witnesses a knockdowndown drag out family shredding fight. Other than that, they had a nice

day. It was like, maybe this is the one. I felt optimistic. Yeah, they went to a party. That's true. Yeah, it's like, alright, the guy's got some baggage. He's got his restaurant. He's got, obviously, some family stuff, but it might work out with these two crazy kids. And then we get to episode six and we go backwards. Mal, you take it from here.

Fishes. It's a prequel, right? It's a prequel. We're five years before the impending opening of the new restaurant, Bear. And this is a move over Yankees, Murderer's Row. We have to redefine what we cite for Murderer's Row. We have to redefine what we cite for Murderer's Row of guest star lineups here.

I mean, obviously our guy, Barenthal, is back as Michael. We've got Bob Odenkirk here as Uncle Lee. We've got Jamie Lee Curtis as Mama Donna. Sarah Paulson as Michelle. John Mulaney as her love interest,

Steven. Jillian Jacobs is here. Shout out Community Hive as Tiffany, Richie's wife. I mean, this was just and obviously like Oliver Platt. He is in the scene. All of our usual favorites. Everybody is here, quite literally in one

contained space. A Christmas dinner, a holiday, a family occasion to get together and in theory celebrate. But really what often ends up happening is that everybody brings their shit to the same controlled space together. And it all it's not just a table full of seven fishes, right? It's a table full of seven different versions of shared history and trauma. This was like one of those intense viewing experiences. Is Joe in the Dysfunctional Family Club with us or no?

I was going to say, so you guys are in the divorced parents club, right? Yeah, we're in the I hope nothing bad happens during this holiday club. I'm in the Children of Alcoholics Club. So I think we're like an ancillary group of the children of divorce. And this is a very familiar scene.

I think there's way more of us out there than maybe people realize. Anyway, go ahead, Mel. I think that the dominant discussion point coming out of the episode, and I don't know if you want to, Bill, get into the particulars of subsequent episodes or not get into spoiler territory for episode seven and beyond. Let's hit up six first and

then what it means for the last four. I'll just say the whole back half of the season I thought was exceptional. I think that the bulk of the conversation coming out of six is about the guest star roster. How could it not be? But I will just say, and it's like to the Bears' credit that they were broadly,

maybe with a couple small exceptions, able to calibrate and balance that. One big exception, I would say. One exception, which I have no doubt we'll be talking about shortly. Balance that level of star power and that many people who needed to be able to have some sort of moment of consequence.

You bought that all of those people had that history together. When Michael and Lee, when the fork flinging is happening at the table, you can feel every moment that's passed between those characters. I'll say it's to the show's immense credit that my favorite things, at least, about that episode were the's passed between those characters. I will say it's to the show's immense credit that my favorite things,

at least about that episode where the quieter conversations would be two characters, Richie and Tiff in bed upstairs with their sprite, Carmi and Michael in the pantry with this box of saltines and Carmi giving Michael the drawing of what the bear is going to look like. I was fucking shattered watching that shattered. And for the show to be able to give us a roster like that

and still give us those quiet moments of like heart and heft between just a couple people. This is why the bear has the belt. I think this is the best show on TV right now. Well, here's the other piece that we go on TV right now, like currently airing. I think that the conversation post succession

was what show is going to have the belt, right? And I think the bear has the belt. That's that is how I feel about it currently. And it's like, what other shows are in the mix? White Lotus, Last of Us. That's probably my personal top three. I'm curious if you guys have other. I don't want to jump ahead, but other candidates right now, the bear has the belt.

Joanne, I agree with Mel. I didn't agree after season one. I did not think I was like, look, good season. I didn't like it as much as other people, but I really respected it. And I thought season two landed the plan. I think the thing about episode six that you didn't mention

is we know Bernthal. First of all, Bernthal, our guy. We'll go into that later. Our fucking guy. I had no idea. I literally had no idea. So good in this. It's unbelievable.

But we know Bernthal's character kills himself. Yeah. And I'm watching, maybe I'm a dark person, but I'm watching it wondering if the episode is leading to him killing himself at the end of the episode. And there was a tension on top of all the other tension where I'm like, is this going to end with him doing something? And that was what I think was stressing me out the most.

What did you think, Jo? I think because they give the how many days until opening. So I think timeline wise, I wasn't expecting that this would be the episode. But I was worried about him using. And what I like about this episode is that we I think we see the moment where he decides to use. We see the moment where like Richie clocks first clocks that he's probably decided to use in this episode. And then we see the fall where he decides to use. We see the moment where like Richie clocks first clocks that he's probably decided to use in this episode. And then we see the fallout from it,

like the difference between who he is at the beginning of the episode versus who he is in the back half of the episode. And that is devastating. Like watching that, like watching him be this, the opening sequence with the three siblings outside and watching him be this like pillar for them and then watching that completely disintegrate because of his own thing and like uh john bernthal in this episode the moment where carmy walks away and he cries and then he slaps

himself and he's like okay it's like that's one of the most arresting things I've ever seen. But I think that for those of us who have been at very dysfunctional, this is like kind of what every single family Christmas that I ever went to felt like. And it's, there's, they have a conversation about this where I think it's Oliver Platt's character says,

like, it's going to get dark. And Jillian Jacobs is like, you feel it, you feel it. And it's like, it has to burst at some point. And so watching that episode is so unbearable because, you know, the egg timers are going off and like,

there's a constant din in the background of people talking and the music and like all of that. And you're just like, when is it going to explode and how? And then I rewatched it again this morning, which was rewarding for two reasons. Once you know where the pop is, you can a little bit more relax into the episode. Still very stressful, but you can like a little bit more relax into it. And then to see, to understand fully how it not only echoes back, but echoes forward,

was also, I thought, really rewarding on a rewatch. Yeah, especially how it pays off in episode 10 in a couple different ways. The reason I was never all in on this show after season one was nothing to do with the quality of the show. It unsettled me. And for what I like in TV, like it just, it was kind of more than I wanted. And I don't know whether I'm just like too busy or too many things going on, but it, it, it really felt, I don't want to say it felt like a chore, but it really took something

out of me watching it. And which was all purposeful is the way they do the show. And it's just constantly intentionally chaotic. And I thought season two, they moved away from that a little bit enough, right? And it kind of settled into a slightly more conventional TV show, but not too conventional. And then episode six, all that stuff comes back in the most chaotic and it just builds and builds. It was really, Chris Ryan was saying how it was like the last 40 minutes of Goodfellas when Leota starts to lose it. And I thought that was a really good analogy. It felt like that.

Yeah, real kooky energy. Yeah, it was kooky, crazy, just nutty. But you know, it was building towards some sort of, all right, a little succession style. Everybody's going to be sitting at the table and this is going to burst. But I mean, the thing that was really special ultimately is the, the performances maybe with one slight exception, but Bernthal, Odinkirk. Now I didn't watch Better Call Saul.

Was that, where does that rank for the, on the Odinkirk rankings, Joanna? Well, Better Call Saul is like a different, that's like in the strategy here. But what I love about this character,

Lee, is it's not a typical Odinkirk character. He's usually, he's like, no matter what he's doing, he's usually charming. And the fact that Lee is it's not a typical Odenkirk character yeah um he's usually he's like no matter what he's doing he's usually charming and the fact that Lee is just like a jag off uh the whole episode and I love what I love there's some very broad a lot of broad moments in this episode and then there's just some like really subtle family history writing like what what I infer from what we see is that perhaps this character Lee had an affair with their mom while their dad was still around. And this is a source of like why Michael like hates him just based on like tiny.

I could get that right. I could have that wrong. But based on like a few tiny comments, that's what it feels like. And that history is so clearly there with all of them. They'll reference characters. Oh, you know, because she did the thing. You know, there's just like this history that's sort of baked in for all of them. But Owen Kirk's fantastic.

But I think for me, it's Jillian Jacobs as Tiff because the Ritchie story, we'll talk a little bit about the end of the season but the richie storyline this season was the most absolutely rewarding for me and what's important for understanding of richie um is to understand what he lost you know what he's mourning and it's not just michael we already knew that but to understand this quiet like cherished supported nurtured like sequence it's so devastating to watch because similar to watching michael knowing he's going to kill himself like watching this beautiful tender moment and know that this marriage is not gonna go is so poignant in this episode um i was thinking, Mal, about your favorite show or one of your favorite shows, Lost.

I shared another shared passion to Joanna and I. Well, it pulled Lost and Pieces of Succession too, like two shows that I think we all really like. But Lost was the first one. There might have been other TV shows, but I felt like they mastered it or created a new way of thinking about it, of just the going backwards with intentionality

to give you the backstory of, and then when we come back into the present, the backstory is so helpful with understanding both the motivations and just how people got there. I don't, do either of you remember another show before Lost kind of nailing that? Because I do not.

No, I think Lost really put the stamp on that. And I also put the stamp in many ways on the idea of the blank episode, the belonging to a character. And we got a lot of those this season too. So yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but there's a lot of lost fingerprints. All right. Anyway, so we get all this backstory that I think we knew a lot of it, but we didn't really fully understand, especially our guy, Carm, where you leave this episode and you're like,

he's actually doomed. I don't think he's going to be able to find happiness with another human. So then what happens the next four episodes becomes a little less surprising, but almost feels preordained, right? Well, I mean, I think that's part of the tragedy of it, right? Because so much of the way that he is responding to either his direct interaction with Michael, his brother, his direct interaction with Donna, his brother, his direct interaction with Donna, his mother, or what he's witnessing. The way that Michael and Carm talk to Nat, to Shug,

about how to interact with their mom, like they are aware and seeing clearly, I think, Joe, what you called out about the Uncle Jimmy moment of saying, okay, it's about to tip and everyone knows it because it always has before. It happens every year. Yeah.

Like those recurring beats that form the fabric of your life with the other people around you. For Carm, we're going into spoilers for the end of the season? Everything's on the table here? Yeah, we're going in spoilers

and I'm putting this in the last part of the podcast. So if people didn't get to it yet, they're good to go. For Carm to end up in a place where now does Sid have a point when she's calling out his focus and

his commitment to this thing that they have decided they have sworn to each other they would go all in on? I think everyone would say yes, but is it absolutely soul crushing to see him decide that he can't allow himself to be happy, that he doesn't need to have fun, that he doesn't need to experience joy and excitement? That's what being a person is. And ultimately, I think the show, it is about cooking. It is about food. It is about hospitality.

It's about the connections that people build. It's about community. But it's about,. It is about food. It is about hospitality. It's about the connections that people build. It's about community. But it's about, and this is, I agree with Joanna, that Richie's storyline was really like, I've always loved Richie, but like at another level of gripping and riveting this season, because he is the one that voices so much of this loud. All of the characters do.

Sid does, Carm does. Purpose, right? What is your purpose? And then what do you do if you think you've lost that? And ambition, which I think is something like we're ambitious people, right? But where does that lead you? And what compromises and sacrifices do you have to make? The moment that Fishes takes place, karma is back from Copenhagen. He's at Noma. He's at the best restaurant in the world when this is happening. And he's pulling, he's leaving the crowning achievement of his life for a day to be reminded of how disappointing everybody can around him can be but also of the only thing that he really

cares about which is building something with those people and so to see him pounding on the inside of that fridge a door that he couldn't remember to fix and for his takeaway to be this is a failure that i wrought and so i can't allow myself to have anything in my life other than the right name for the right guy to repair the right fridge at the right moment is like devastating. That's just devastating. And I just think to be able to do that inside of like broadly 20-ish minute episodes, especially in season two, where one of the real, I think, credits of the season is that they broadened the focus

and the time spent. Not only Richie, not only Sid. We had a Marcus episode in Copenhagen. That's incredible. We get more time with Tina. We have a lot more time with all of the characters to really round out our understanding,

not only of who they are individually, but of their dynamics together. It all has to be parceled out really deliberately. So I don't think you want the takeaway to be, I see Carmen this scenario at Christmas. I think he's doomed. We have to have a little more hope than that. But I think he feels that way. And that's the part that matters. What I love about the bear, there was some head, I don't need to call out the outlet because it doesn't really

matter. But I saw some major outlet call it like the feel good show there. And I was like, oh, that's not good. Yeah. So The moments of triumph, the moments of connection are poignant and uplifting. But like it comes all of this other stuff. And I was really thinking this morning, The Bear is a show. Let's say it goes. I think it should go for like max four seasons. Honestly, let's say The Bear is a show where the restaurant fails or the restaurant succeeds, I could see this show going either way. And that's what's exciting because like for so many shows, it feels like it's a foregone conclusion that our hero will succeed or our hero will fail.

And this, I feel like there's a lesson about trying either way for these people that I think will be interesting i didn't love the finale um there were some beat like you know as you said the the carmy claire breakup felt like a foregone conclusion almost from when they first saw each other and so i think to treat it as like there were some elements of the finale that didn't quite work for me but i thought episode six like episode seven last season which was that like marquee long shot episode um i like that they're taking these ambitious swings of slightly different flavor every season for me it was episode seven forks which is the richie episode okay that was my favorite. That was my favorite episode of the season. And again,

to watch Richie find his Richie, who was a character last season, who seems so primed to be left behind by my least favorite character by last season. Right. And like it's felt so clear that he wouldn't fit in this. Where is he going to fit in this new world of the bear when he is like, you know, the beef guy? And the fact that they convinced me of this evolution for his character this season. And Evan's so good. Yeah, that's what I really liked.

Did you see what Jo did there? It was very subtle. And this is why she's one of the true greats. She's already zagged to the episode seven is actually the episode. Fish is the tourist trap episode. Episode seven

is the one. I saw what you did there. They told us the whole time it was about forks. Even in Fish's, they're throwing forks. Then episode seven's called forks. What do they run out in the finale? Forks. It's all about forks, Bill. Every episode title is run out of the finale forks it's all about forks bill every every every episode title is like a part of the of the final meal which is all building it's all you know what else helps episode seven having the best actress alive just kind of pop in and unbelievable cut some mushrooms for seven minutes out of nowhere did

you know that was happening no no idea fx was so like so um their screener rollout was really interesting for this i didn't watch any of the screeners i just saved it for that sunday binge as i told you but the they sent out like a matthew weiner madman level email with the screeners about like do not talk about anyone who is in this season or we will find you and kill you um and i do i didn't even read who was in it um and i do i mean i do think that especially watching six when you're like wait john mulaney's here like you know like every with a weird hair there what's going on what what's going on and then yeah oh my god olivia coleman's just randomly in the like basement of this

restaurant peeling mushrooms sure so um yeah that, I thought that was a really fun, thoughtful deployment. And I like the way that her character, Will Poulter's character, Copenhagen, her restaurant, like the way in which Carmen is sending his staff through the steps that he took, deploying them sort of intentionally. And you see how his community all exists with like will polter's character olivia coleman's character how they're all connected um yeah i thought that i thought that was extraordinary you asked like how many shows how many seasons this show goes yeah there was so much purpose behind the second season um even like when you, like Richie, I think we would all agree

is probably the key character of the season, which I wouldn't have expected, but they foreshadowed on the first episode, right? He's randomly like, Hey, you know, I'm reading this book. Do you ever think about your purpose? And Carm's like, wait, what's going on? Can you go to the fridge and get me something? And so he's clearly having this pseudo midlife crisis about why am I here? And that was why that episode seven was such a great payoff where there's a couple, cause that other guy, the,

the major D type guy, when he takes them outside and gives them that pep talk. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a really good pep talk. There was a sports movie element to this season that i i don't think they're trying to hide right with the coach k biography and some of the pep talks and the you know getting ready for the big game which was opening night yeah constant reminders of the terps blowing it to

duke my least favorite part of the season by far as a lifelong maryland fan deeply painful we had a steve bartman Gonzalez story. Alex Gonzalez, tough season for Alex Gonzalez. He was just driving by shooting at him. He was probably like, man, I can't wait to watch the bear. All of a sudden, he's getting annihilated. But yeah, there was a sports element to this season. There was

redemption elements and somehow, Carm was the one who ended up, other than his mom, in the worst shape out of anybody. Let's talk about the mom. Actually, let's take a break and then we'll talk about the mom. All right, coming back.

This is, I'm just foreshadowing. I'm going to get slightly critical here because I didn't love the actor. I think all three of us are on the same page about it. I didn't love the actor. Jamie Lee Curtis, who I've liked in a lot of things, I just thought she was the wrong actress for this. I needed either, you needed

to give me like a true the Italian is dripping out of this person kind of actress. Or just give me one of the greats, right? We had Olivia Colman in episode 7 like, give me Frances McDormand. Give me fucking Meryl Streep. Give me somebody.

Jamie Lee Curtis is like, I just won the Oscar. What are you talking about? But I agree. I agree with you. Listen, she's been in a lot of good stuff, but I thought everyone else is so great. And I just felt like she was dialing it up the whole time.

And I was a little distracted by it i thought it was the flaw of the episode i agree i mean like i i will never forget the sight of her like curled paw slathering butter like raw onto a piece of bread like that i will be thinking about that forever and i i do like her in plenty of things and i'm trying to figure out if it's her fault or you know or the writing like if you put like a jackie weaver in here or someone else but like no matter what edie falco yeah edie falco i love that but no matter what you're trying to drop like who's afraid of virginia wolf level of characterization which sucks up all the oxygen in a in an episode where like you know you've got sarah paulson giving an incredibly subtle performance you know

so it's like it's it felt like a mismatch and then i also when she shows up again for the finale that also felt like i was like i don't want this here right now. She was just too dialed up. What do you think, Mal? At least in the finale, though, it gave us that scene for poor Pete where he is sitting at the table with Matt and just cannot, cannot fend off his tears because he is so afraid to tell her uh what just happened yeah i i agree i think that it was the the easily the most over the top performance inside of the episode in the season you know i guess the counterpoint would be that that was by design and that in some ways it's a

season of of like weights and counterweights right like i think that one of the reasons that the richie story felt so impactful to all of us is because we're talking about with karm this sense of like inevitability and the repeating cycles and richie's there and so are other characters too to like show us that you're capable of change that people are able to make a decision to try to do something different one day. Like one of my favorite little touches in the Richie episode was just the way the alarm clock

keeps moving a minute or two minutes up with these little things that you can do in the course of your day to try to be a little bit better. That's a really powerful other side of the pulley. And so to have Donna be such a unrelenting force of nature inside of that household it did achieve i mean again i i agree with both of you i felt the same way but what it didn't i think undeniably achieve is the mounting building tension that was the equivalent of the

fire suppression test the balloon is building building. And you can't for a second allow yourself to think it's not going to explode. It's just a question of how, what form does that explosion take? And you know that every other character in the show is feeling the way that you're feeling as a viewer at home. They're just dreading, dreading what that's building towards. So the performance had to make us feel inside of what what's supposed to be one evening in their home, that that was not only possible, but inevitable. And it did achieve that.

But yeah, I mean, everything else was just so perfectly calibrated. This was a lot. Yeah, I just don't know why they dialed it up to that degree. I don't know whose decision that was, whether she made the decision as an actor. Right.

And then they were kind of they didn't want to like give her notes and it just kind of became what it became but I just think when somebody's that insane people are going to intervene like she was like deranged there's a difference between like being crazy a little off your rocker and like being an actual

deranged maniac which she was I will say from my so my holiday experiences are have never been no one's ever put a car through the house let me just put it that way but i i i related so much with suge and with carme like those two reactions to what's going on her desire to constantly like try to fix it which ends up being the thing that like sort of pops it off um and his he's just retreating into himself um over the course of the episode um uh but what i also i recognize in the holidays that i've experienced is that no one wants to intervene because when you intervene,

you're that you become the shug, like you are the target of the madness. And so you just don't say anything. Well, that's why the key person, and we didn't mention her and we should have was how good Abby Elliot was and how different she is at the table five years ago around her mom versus what we saw from her this season. And she, she's exactly what you're saying. She, she just doesn't want to get hit by the shrapnel the whole time. She's like receding into her body. And then finally ends up,

it ends up hitting Sarah Paulson's character instead. But you're right. That's the reaction is everybody's just sitting there. Like, I hope I don't get picked. I hope I'm not the one. To get put into this game. 100%.

Well, and the way they all respond to Steven, not at the table but the earlier scene when donna is still in the kitchen when john mulaney's character is like i'll go check if they're all like are you well they're constantly like it's with pete pete and the tuna casserole too yeah they're constantly like no what could upset the delicate balance this is an accelerant this is accelerant let's set it on fire but that was the other great thing about the episode i I thought, was like the characters who are just a little bit outside of that nuclear dynamic. Because Steven obviously has been there multiple holidays in a row. We can tell this isn't his first time.

He's got the history. He's the great scene with the facts and the money. He's like, this will just amuse me. He's just like, you know, he's like, all right, these the people i can't wait to to get a chuckle from this year but he also because he just has that degree of remove that the people who have been consumed by this their whole lives that just could never hope to have again he's able to come through nobody wants to say grace nobody wants to make the big speech and he finally does to explain what he thinks seven Fishers is all about. And they're all stunned into silence by like the profundity of what he said.

And I thought that was like a lovely performance and a lovely scene, but it was also, it struck me like very starkly. How long has it been since these people were able to stop arguing long enough to talk about like why something's meaningful to them? You know? Well, and what I love is that like, yeah,

it's like, this maybe stevie's like fifth chris is the fourth something like that and then pete is newer so like pete doesn't understand what he's supposed to do at all and even stevie's like don't do that new fish in prison well they also milaney has that other great part where he goes in the kitchen and jamie lee just rips his head off yeah and he does like the just complete freeze All the blood has been removed from my body. What do I do? Back away. And that was like,

that brought back memories, I think for all of us for this special. Let's, let's talk about our guy, our special man. Bernd Thal. One of one. Look,

I can't say he was red hot coming off American Gigolo, a show that only Mallory and I watch. You know, were we worried long term? I can't say he was red hot coming off American Gigolo, a show that only Mallory and I watch. Were we worried long term? I don't know. But let's just say it wasn't a W. It didn't go in the W column for him. And there's different types of Bernthal characters and performances. This is my favorite Bernthal.

He's stripped down, emotionally destroyed, but still might snap and might fuck you up. And all of it leads to the Odenkirk scene, which, man, I mean, if you're just talking like, what is that, four or five minute scenes of just two dudes going at it in a scene like that, that was way, way, way, way up there. And that was the memorable scene

other than Jamie Lee driving the car into the house. I think that's another, you know, yes, I preferred episode seven, but I think episode six is brilliant in that, like, in terms of that where's the bubble gonna pop, where's the explosion gonna come from?

I like that our eyes are all on Jamieie lee curtis and then this other you know more minor this other force comes out happens over here and you're like oh no generational it's coming down the generations which is why of course when richie and he's screaming at carmy like through the through the fridge door calls him his mom which is the worst thing you can say to like anyone honestly but also screaming i love you at the same time but it's that you know like we talked about this so much with succession what can you can you escape the the cyclical nature can you escape your dna yeah

oh the answer is usually no um bernthal what happens with him now? Do we see him again? Is that it? Is it a one and done for him playing that character? Or do we have another flashback episode? Well, he was in season one. He was in season one.

I think we'll see him in every season. I think he's the central force in Carmi's life. So there'll be one flashback episode every season. And there are other ways, like one of the really like genius strokes of this is that he's always there

right like let it rip being framed and brought into the kitchen beautiful what's the guys what's the name of the cannoli I mean that when Marcus names the cannoli after for Michael it's just like so

beautiful and sad. And like the way that purpose and meaning and intention and happiness, but also despair are always entwined for these characters. It's just wonderful. So Michael's always present. I mean, the Fenway, Billy had to love Fenway getting some calls.

The Fenway poster blocking the whole, how do they figure out how to finally get ready for the fire suppression? That's like Michael is there in every minute and every beat of the show in terms of baron thaw actually being in i think we will always get a scene at a minimum of him we just have to it's such a dynamite performance it's just so incredible and like where we are in time when we get it i think will kind of vary because that helps to your point for about lost from earlier which i think is a great one the thing that was so expert always about lost wasn't just what we learned about the characters.

It was when like when they chose to tell us something new about a meaningful thing from people's past. So what we learn and what we see about Michael, I think we'll we'll we'll continue to be like a corollary for that in the bear. I love that about about lost is like this opening of a flower of this like ensemble cast and so like i think the backstory we get with richie like we knew that his marriage is a failure like he's a fuck up like all this sort of stuff like that but what we didn't know was like how like obviously in love he was with his wife and then so then when you get that later scene with the phone call with with tiff it's you know and and he's you we know what it means to him because we know what he's lost now because

we got to see it in that episode and i think also um in terms of what you were saying bill about what put you off in season one and what you like more about season two they they wrote themselves into an interesting corner this season because so much of season one was about the energy of all these people bouncing off each other in a kitchen. And so they're demolishing the restaurant this season. So we need to like send people off into their various corners

and then still try to capture some of that energy. So you get it obviously in Fishes and you get it in the finale. And maybe that's a balance that they might think about working more in the future or is it just going to be kitchen chaos season three i don't know you know yeah i could tell right away what the intent of season two was as watching i was like all right i'm here for this i get it we're gonna go chang and i before chang had his podcast on um the ringer we did this.

He was opening a restaurant. He was opening a major domo in downtown LA. And we did this little podcast series called, I forget what it was called, like the Restaurant Opening Diaries or something. And we must have done four or five episodes about what it's like to open a restaurant and what a nightmare it is. And he really wanted to do it because he's like, I don't think people understand how hard this is. And he went through it, like how many ways this can go wrong. And he was explaining the concept. You can go listen to it. People are listening to this. It's like the first episodes in his archive. But one of the things he was talking about was friends and family night and how it's this

important night. But it's also the reason you have friends and family night is because this is the night where like everything that could possibly go wrong might go wrong. And you want to make sure you have people that you care about. So when this ended with like, oh, we're going to end with friends and family night, I was like, oh man, this is probably not going to go great.

It ended up with him trapped in a frozen locker and inadvertently breaking up with his girlfriend and not realizing he did. But they finished service. Right. And like, is Josh smoking meth in the parking lot? Maybe. But like, we all have challenges in the middle of a work day. Yeah.

Hoops among us. It's basically a cigarette break. I loved I mean, I thought the whole season for Sid was fantastic. But the finale in particular, because you have, and I think like Joe, your point about the risk of removing the beef and literally having to build up the bear in its places is a great and essential one. And so many of the like buttresses,

it's not just like a new wall in place of the one that was moldy and rotted away or new lockers in terms of the ones you had to move. Like you've got to give us the foundation and the cornerstone of Sid and her dad. We have to learn about Sid's mom.

We have to see when Carmi blows her off to go spend time with Claire, which weirdly is something we don't want him to blow off. We want him to have that relationship with Claire in his life. We've got to be there with Sid as she's putting every bite of food into her mouth and exploring the city and

having conversations with other people including ones where they're like make sure you trust your partner so we have that little seed of dread and doubt but when Carm gives her the chef's jacket with her initials and we had seen that moment where she looked at his jacket earlier in the season was like it must have felt fucking great and it's like yeah it did and to see her get that and like I just I don't know I love that element of the show because I think one of my favorite things in the whole season was the little the signing the way they

sign I'm sorry to each other right because let's start doing that on yeah great idea I talk about this a lot over on House of R and on and on Prestige we were talking about this with Yellow Jackets and a couple other shows recently. It can be brutal

to say something terrible to someone you love or to have them say something terrible to you. But the fucked up thing is that if you could push through that with someone, you're maybe in a stronger place on the other side. What happens if that's the everyday reality of your interaction with What happens if that's the everyday reality

of your interaction with someone? Like if that's the currency of how you engage, like that's what the show is a study of in so many ways. It's really painful to watch, but also wonderful. Can't wait for season three. You know, we didn't talk about Sid yet.

Joanna, give us, what's the backstory with that actress? Oh, she's a comedian because she's absolutely fantastic in this show yeah and sometimes this like sometimes I wonder like are there more like great

actors than we realize and they just never found the right part or was this like in the NBA like oh I knew that was gonna I knew they're gonna be awesome in the playoffs someday because they did this um I don't think she had I mean she was in uh that was going to, I knew they were going to be awesome in the playoffs someday because they did this. Um, I don't think she had, I mean,

she was in, uh, Dickinson, which is a show that I really enjoyed and she was really good in it. Um, and, but she's also been like a writer on a lot of projects. So I think she's like someone that everyone kind of knew because of the,

like behind the camera work that she had done. Um, but I think her, I mean, I know her stock is massively on the rise because of this she's in Black Mirror yeah she's in Black Mirror she's in Abbott Elementary um you know she had a a South by a big South by movie you know like all this sort of stuff so like she and I would like that for everyone in the Bear cast you know what I mean like everyone to have their their stock

sort of explode the way that it happened with like white lotus or succession etc um yeah she's fantastic and i think her relationship with her dad it really it really does drill down on that theme of like being afraid to try or she's trying to push through that and i i have a similar uh relationship with my parents where they they think about things from like a fear point of view, a fear of like trying to protect someone, right? And like cushion them from failure. But what ends up happening sometimes is that you infect that person with your fear and then they, you can't try anything, right? And so her walking around, seeing all the restaurants that have closed in Chicago, thinking about like you

know a character that she talked to in her episode and finding out that that restaurant closed so putting that like opening night is something that they need to crush friends and family night is something they need to crush but like it's a much longer tale than that and i think that that was like a really interesting way to explore that theme through her character. And then talking about foundation, the relationship foundations, like episode seven, the very famous season one episode has her stabbing Richie. And so the fact that like Richie comes in at the end in the finale and is like and she's spinning out, he's like, I can do it. Right. And she goes, OK. Right.

You know what I mean? And then that is just like a strong link formed under fire in the finale that I really, I loved that moment. Well, two of my favorite scenes with her. And I know Mal loved one of these. The first one, not the one Mal loved, although she loved this one too, I bet.

I just love Robert Townsend. I was so happy to see older Robert Townsend as the dad having that scene at the table with her. Yeah. That I just thought one of the reasons this show is special is it'll have these little four or five minute scenes with characters and they're just really well written and well acted.

This is why I watch TV for shit like this. But I loved when she made Abby Elliot the omelet. Unbelievable. I knew Valerie would love that. You probably made Adam make you an omelet right after the episode. I don't know what I loved about it.

Mallory? Love an omelet. Adam and I don't really see eye to eye on how an egg should be properly prepared, so I did not ask him, but I did consider going to Petit Trois for a French omelet after watching that. I know a couple of people who are pretty famous chefs.

And one of the reasons they're really good at what they do is fundamentally, they just love cooking for people. And they sense, and it's almost like a performance to them, but it's like true, true, true love. And she saw like Abby Elliott's a little bummed out. Oh, you're hungry? Let me make you an omelet. And then she's like, I'm going to makemed out. Oh, you're hungry. Let me make you an omelet. And then she's like, I'm going to make, I'm going to make her the best fucking omelet I've

ever made anybody. And then you could just see it and say, Oh my God, this is so good. She has to hug her. I just thought that was great. We all tend to agree about Jamie Lee Curtis and the Donna character. But I think that the writing of that character in that she's someone who creates an absolute nightmare in pursuit of the perfect table in trying to nourish and provide uh an absolute nightmare this week and the line the line for me is when she says i make things beautiful for them and no one makes things beautiful for me this idea idea for like Carmi and for and for Sid and for all these characters there, they're trying to create the perfect

most beautiful dining experience, blah, blah, blah. But like, who's making Sid an omelet? Right? Like, who's making something, you know, like... Who's making Mal an omelet? Yeah. You know, I'm firing up DoorDash right after we get off the Zoom. But I agree. I think it's a key point because like, you know, Bill, why do you pod?

You want to bring people joy for a few minutes every day, right? And like when you can give that gift to someone, it's only the sports guy can. But no, like I think for Carmi, one of the, it's a quicker moment and it ultimately like is kind of like the foreplay to a love scene. But one of the more important moments in the season is when he makes Claire dinner because he's heard her say that no one's ever made her dinner before.

And just to take the time to make somebody else happy. And it could be 30 seconds, it could be your life. But to show somebody else that you give a shit, and I will say with Donna, I think that was powerful and really sad.

The way that she's going about managing the relationships in her life, I think it falls into the we have some notes territory, certainly. But she's like, will anybody tell me that this meant anything to them or try to make me happy later? I don't know.

I kind of felt that. That's a real thing too. But also they keep saying it to her and she can't absorb it right exactly that's an italian thing though that there's like some full italian in there and that was a hundred percent i'm doing all this stuff for you and you're praising them and thanking them and it's never right off though yeah it's never enough but but it's and the same is true for carmy like when in episode six he's home and everyone's like

we are proud of you you're accomplishing amazing things we think it's so cool and all you can respond to with michael and richie when they're talking about claire is like stop fucking with me you're fucking like he's all like spiky and a defensive sort of crouch and you understand why when he's yeah but you know why though because then later the mom she springs on him the whole, you know, you never come back. Yeah, sure. One of the things that show did really well,

that episode was tap into the, when everybody is stuck in one place and then somebody leaves and when they come back, it's what they say to you the whole time you're back. Why haven't you been back? Why don't you come back more often? Are you going to move back?

Mal, I'm sure you identify. When you go back to a place that you live for a long period of time, it's just what you hear. And it was like, with them, it was almost like it was angry. They made them a little bit angry

that he was kind of surviving somewhere else, right? Well, it's like another thing that helps enrich our understanding of the character because where do we meet Carmi in the first place? He's returning home to

the family establishment, the place that he felt like a compulsion to escape. I mean, the scene in Fishes with Michelle, where she's like, just come stay with me for a while in New York and get the fuck away from this. Nobody, like, everybody misses him and everyone wants to see him more. But also, if they're being honest with themselves, like none of them want him to be trapped there

either. There's a part of them that celebrates the fact that he made it out. And so for him returning home, it's like, well, what does home look like for you? And does it always have to be the version that somebody else like made for you before or can you figure out a way to make it a different thing not only for yourself but for other people the people that it becomes home for next and that specifically is what the bear is an exercise in exploring not the bear the television show the bear also the pair of the television show but the bear the restaurant is opening right like it was interesting in the claire meet cute at the

the freezer i'd love to know if you guys think vanilla ice cream pairs with, with a veal, but the fact that she knew the name and that it had been a part of like this history, you know, like Molly Gordon was so no 10 out of 10. She was absolutely fantastic. Just can we,

we got to talk about her for a second. Cause I feel like as this show gets dissected, people are going to say, ah, that was the character. And it was a little cliched. That character was not cliched. No character was not cliched.

And it's a really important character because some of those people do exist who have just had really good, normal lives and good experiences and have a completely positive outlook on life and look at everything and everything is glass half full. And the whole point of that character was like, Karn was going to break her heart. It was, it was going to happen in season two,

season three. This was going to end badly. And it was going to end with her, with the look she had on her face at the end of that season. And it did. But I thought that actress who, she was in book smart. She was in,

what was that? Good boys. Yeah. Good boys. My son loved that movie. She's great in that movie. She's been basically good in everything, but now she's kind of old enough to be in parts like this. I think she's 27. I think she's

a really special actor. I thought she's fantastic. And I think that I think it goes to that, like, can you accept something good? Like, to think about a chef or a podcaster or whatever, like that idea of making something and sliding the plate in front of someone and they take a bite and you go, yeah,

you know what I mean? That moment of like, tell me it's good. I poured everything I have into this to taste good. Right. And so like that, that, that motivation, motivating desire, but that inability to absorb it in a more like healthy consistent it's not dependent on whether or not you nailed this meal it's just always here for you way so he's like physical pain listening to her voicemail you know i mean where she's just sort of like here's some uncomplicated uplifting support that are unconditional. I'm proud of you. I love you.

I love you. Good luck. I love you. And he's like, no, it has to be based on like, I can't.

I can't. his hand starts trembling as that message is going on. Like, he's like having a physical reaction to it. But that lady, she's basically the opposite of his mom. Right?

It's like, you have this extreme and you have this extreme. This is the best possible person you could be involved with and this is over here probably the worst. Can we talk about once again another stellar season of kind of stealth 90s and 2000s

music choices? I have been listening to the season two Bear playlist for the last 24 hours straight. Nobody, REM should be like sending the creator checks like, thank you. We were once one of the biggest bands in the world and you're reviving our music single

handedly. They also, in episode two, they used this Counting Crow song that you can't even find on Spotify. That's the end of Rounders. The only time you could ever hear it is if you watch the credits at the end of rounders, it's called baby. I'm a star.

And they play it for like three minutes in episode two. But I thought over and over again, they were just crushing the music and it's clearly really important to what's the name of the show runner. Christopher store. It's clearly like incredibly important to him that he's matching the right kind of songs to the right scenes and the atmosphere.

But it's just great. It's just on the edge of trying to get too much of your attention. Do you know what I mean? I think one step further and you're just sort of like, okay, we get it. Well, don't you feel like it's almost like a playlist for what we're watching? I think.

There's music going on almost constantly. I think using the replacements multiple times on the soundtrack hit me very personally. Throw Your Arms Around Me, this Eddie Vedder cover of a song I absolutely love. Like, yeah, like I heard the intro to so many songs and I was like, oh, this one too. Are you kidding me? Yeah. I was texting with Closterman about it today. And I was like, the wallflowers just have to be furious. Like, what else do we have to do? We're like, Matthew Sweet has to be like, how have I not been on the show yet? But yeah, the music I think has been great. And that Sweet's going to be like, how have I not been on the show yet? But yeah, the music I think has been great.

And that's why I think long-term, the legs of this show, Mal, there's just too much thought put in everything. It's almost like the same way the great chefs approach a meal. I could see this being a Jesse Armstrong scenario where they say like, look, this was a four-season show. I do not see this was a four season show.

I do not see this being a 13 season show, I guess is my point. Yeah. Five max, four I think would be really solid. Yeah. I think what Joe

called out earlier, not only about the maybe likely ideal length, but about the episode titles and how the entire season is crafting the menu of the finale and building

and the soundtrack is hitting those emotional cues. Everything's building, building, building. Like, I'm a fucking glut fucking glutton right so if there was a new episode of the bear every day and we were slinging burgers i would watch but that's not what this is the bear season of the bear it's the you need the tweezer when you're marcus and you're training in copenhagen to place the perfect garnish on the most immaculate plate of food that you could possibly craft that's what

this is and so it's got to be planned and methodically crafted and cast and written and performed and we get we got eight episodes last season we got 10 this season i assume we'll get 10 once again in june next year but maybe not some other factors there right and we'll get three four or five seasons. I mean, no more than that. We did get to see Jeremy Allen White on, you know,

a decade of Shameless. And so I don't think we will be getting a similar experience here. So I was going to ask you about that. I never watched Shameless. So did you bring a history of him on that show?

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Did I bring a history with Lip Gallagher to the pair? Lip Gallagher? Yes. Yes, a formative one.

He's so good. He's amazing. That's why I brought up Emmy Rossum earlier today. We were texting. Yeah. He's so good on Shameless. And he wound up being, Lip Gallagher wound up being sort of because Emmy Rossum left before that show was over, like the spine of that show.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, I never watched it. I loved Shameless. Yeah. Another Chicago show about a genius who's Yeah, I never watched it. I love The Much Shameless. Yeah. Another Chicago show about a genius who's, am I trapped in my hometown? Can I escape?

Can I be more than my circumstances? Yeah, I really think when you're talking about The Bear with People, you can tell who watched Liv Gallagher have sex on TV for 10 years and 80%. For sure.

I should have guessed. Yeah, we know where all of his tattoos are. All every single one. Well, one know where all of his tattoos are. Every single one. Well, one of the things this show reminds me of Succession is, you know, they didn't feel like they needed like the massive actor on the cast, right? It's a lot of people we either knew or like,

oh, that guy or somebody who we hadn't even discovered yet. And yet again, it's like, if you have the right showrunner and you cast the show correctly that recipe is usually going to win over how a lot of these shows do where they're like we got to spend this

much money on the lead actor and then the next two this seems to be more sustainable which Joanne I was going to ask you about the FX piece of this yeah FX you know HBO had the belt. And now with our guy Zasloff kind of stepping in, bringing Dr. Pimple Popper into the mix.

I do worry about HBO a tiny bit. And FX just seems like it's just been cruising forward with original taste over and over again. You could argue the guy who runs HBO, Caseyy and landgraf at fx are probably more important than any other like giant megabucks deal you could make with any creator right i love i love john landgraf and john landgraf's like taste um and ability to spot talent i think is yeah i i mean i think only casey could probably rival him for that those two yeah and i think that fx what's really hurting fx um because i actually think there's their stock used

to be higher than it is right now there was there was a time when they were like sweeping the emmys over hbo um etc you know when you had like um some of the ryan murphy programming that was happening there when you had like the Americans, like there was a bunch of, you know, like. Louis, Louis, Louis has been, I mean, basically eviscerated from society, but that was their biggest show for three years. But yeah. And I think that like when, as we move away from like traditional cable and then FX is

on, it's FX on Hulu and there's all this complicated, like, is it a Hulu show? Is it an FX show? Is it an FX on Hulu show? Which is a this complicated, like, is it a Hulu show? Is it an FX show? Is it an FX on Hulu show? Which is a different thing. Like that. I think that's a little confusing. So I think they're on from a business point of view. I think their brand gets a little muddled because now it's sort of like

muddy because of the Disney acquisition of Fox. It's a little muddied in with the Hulu content. And like, I don't know that the average viewer associates fx with the content as much as they do with like you get the hbo like static and the uh before like it starts and you know you're watching it's good point hbo show but i think that like they've got i mean uh reservation dogs what we do in the shadows like they've got like so many good shows and they're doing such interesting things with creatives uh that i think when you talk to people who make television, you know, certainly the likes of Andy Greenwald, like that HBO and FX are, you know, and Netflix maybe are like the top of where you want to go and where you will feel as a creator, like you're being like nurtured and allowed to do what you want to do.

Well, I hope it stays that way. Mal thinks this show has the belt. Joanna didn't give us a verdict. I think it's White Lotus. That's the runner-up, without question. It's one of those two. I agree. I think The Bear is phenomenal, but I think

the binge helps smooth over some of the rougher patches. And I think the bear is phenomenal, but I think it has, I think the binge helps smooth over some of the rougher patches. And I think if you like really scrutinize sort of on a week to week basis, I think I would give the edge slightly to White Lotus. I think I agree with Mel. I mean, I'm sorry. I agree with Joanna. Sorry, Mel. When season three of the White Lotus is on, there's not a question in my mind that I'll be like,

shout out in my living room, the White Lotus has the belt.'s not a question in my mind that I'll be like, shout a bell out in my living room. That's the bell. No question. Again, I think it's those two shows and maybe The Last of Us is the dominant driver of the conversation right now. I'm out. I'm done with zombie apocalypses. I'm out. But it's a mushroom apocalypse. I don't care. Whatever. Bill,

give The Last of Us a chance. It's fantastic. I watched it. I stopped when the little girl was pulling a knife or something out of our guy and It's fantastic. I watched it. I stopped when the little girl was pulling like a knife or something out of our guy and I'm like, I'm out. This is too dark. Just went through a pandemic.

I'm good. Joe, I'm out. We can hear you on the house of R in the ringer verse. Thanks for popping on and talk about the bear. And it was great to see you as always. Great to see you, Bill.

A true joy. All right. That's it for the podcast. Great to see you, Bill. A true joy. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Jason Goff. Thanks to Jacko. Thanks to Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing and Steve Cerruti as well. And I will see you on this feed on Thursday night,

unless something crazy happens and we go earlier than that. So stay tuned and don't forget rewatchables. This is the end. If you missed it, see you on Thursday. On the wayside On the front side of the river I don't have to ever