The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Caleb Martin Series, Boston’s Bizarre Demise, and Jaylen Brown’s Future With Bill’s Dad

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by his dad directly after leaving TD Garden to discuss the Heat eliminating the Celtics in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals. They discuss the Celtics' inability to combat the Heat's zone defense, Caleb Martin's impact on the series, Jayson Tatum's ankle injury, playoff Jimmy Butler, Celtics offseason roster moves, NBA Finals predictions, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Bill's Dad Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, a sad night in Boston. That's next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home

for streaming Monday night NHL hockey. And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays, the biggest goals, can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on Prime. Prime Monday Night Hockey.

It's on Monday. It's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell

of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it.

Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network,

where we put up a new prestige TV podcast. We covered Succession, the series finale. Me and Sean Fantasy did it. Stay on that feed for the next couple of days because Van Lathan and Joanne Robinson are going to have a deep dive podcast as well. We also cover it on theringer.com and on The Watch. Coming up on this podcast, taping this right after game seven.

I'm in Boston with my dad. I wish we had a Saturday Pearl Jam song to play, but whatever. Here we go. All right. It is 1112 Eastern time. I'm here with my dad, who's just a show of himself. I feel like Jalen Brown. Well, you're more like Tatum because you fell two days ago.

You have a big bruise on the side of your body. You played hurt in game seven. We went to the game and it did not turn out the way we thought. There was a lot of 2004 Red Sox in the air. And I want to talk about all the Boston stuff in a second, but goddamn that Miami team was tough. They beat us three times in Boston. And by the way, my dad and I are going to talk like fans.

I'm not Bill, the media member for this podcast. I am Bill, the guy who's been going to Celtic games since the mid-70s. This is my dad's 50th year with season tickets. This was your 18th game seven in Boston, plus one in LA that we might've lost in 2010. No, this is my 19th game seven in Boston and one in LA. Right, so that's 20. Anyway, we were feeling good.

There were 2004 Red Sox vibes. And Tatum twists his ankle in the first play, and it just felt like the game went to shit almost immediately. You know, he had a nice move first play of the game when soaring in got fouled and came limping out of that mess and was never the same. I mean, he only took 13 shots, I think. Yeah. He was a shell of himself.

You could see it, especially on defense. He couldn't guard anybody. In the second half, we could see it during times when the cameras weren't on, like during the commercials and stuff, watching him walk. And he just kept looking. It was weird because before the game, the team had such a vibe to them. They did. And he was walking around like chest out, couldn't have been happier, so fired So fired up to play within a second. He just looked like he was injured. I mean,

I have to say, I was looking forward to like a 35 point night from Tatum. He had that vibe, as you said. And it wasn't just that though. Miami had a great game plan. Yeah. Let's talk about Miami first. Then we'll do the Boston stuff. Because Miami, so much credit, so much kudos, so impressed by them to lose three in a row, to lose that Derek White game that I think would have broken just about anybody. You could see in the pregame warm-ups, they seemed pretty focused.

They came out at halftime. We watched Jimmy Butler practice the same three-pointer for like five straight minutes. They come out at halftime, they run a play, and he takes the three-pointer in the exact same spot. Exact same spot, swish. We got it down to seven a couple of times. And each time we did that, Miami had a great play set up and somebody got open. And usually it was a three-point shot. And usually it was by Caleb Burton.

I asked you about Martin because I didn't know very much about him. He killed us. He was tremendous. He averaged nine points a game during the season, I think. I don't get it. Maybe he certainly is not going to be averaging nine points a game next year. Well, we were texting a lot during the whole series. And your text went from,

what's up with this Caleb Barton guy to, oh, I'm starting to hate this Caleb Barton, to that by the time we got to today, you're like, what's going on with this Caleb Barton guy again? He was incredible in this game. Every time we made a run, again, we got it down to seven, eight, seven, he made the big shot. And he didn't look nervous at all. He was right in

rhythm. I have to really give Miami credit again, though. Their offense flowed the entire night. Yeah. I mean, they looked for the open man. They didn't take any crazy shots. You know, we play hero three ball the entire game. Miami doesn't do that. They wait for a patient shot, move the ball around. Adebayo, you could probably say, didn't have a very good game if you look at the box score. He was tremendous. Setting those picks. You and I were talking in the walk home. Guys would be floating around him.

He'd wait until the right guy got open, make the right pass. Then there'd be a second pass, swish. I just think that team played a smart game. And we looked like chickens with our heads cut off. We were running around. We had no flow. We're hero basketball. We've seen it before. This is, again, kudos to Miami, but boy, we had a terrible game plan. Well, you think the two ways the Celtics team stood out was the three-point shooting. The idea was that they shot 40%, they won. Right. Well, in the two halves in game six and then the first half of game seven,

they were 11 for 56 from three, which is you basically can't do worse. And then the other thing was the defense. And they really figured out something at the top of the key with Bam that they had all series and they just got better and better at it. And these guys just using him on screens, going backwards, popping off. And eventually somebody on the Celtics would just kind of lose concentration for a split second. And that would be the play where all of a sudden they're shooting a three. That's a good way of putting it. The first five or six minutes, you and I commented to each other that we were really playing tight at the three point line. Right. Trying to take it away. And they were 0 for three. I mean, that's a small

sample, but they look a little bit out of sorts in terms of shooting threes. It took a timeout. And then we got tired, I guess. So we got lazy or we didn't make that extra push to go out and guard the guy. And suddenly those threes were flowing. Also, looking up and seeing 0 for 11 for the Celtics shooting threes. I mean, you're not going to win a game shooting like that, obviously. No, it turned into a rock fight. And then all of a sudden Miami shots started going in. And I was taking notes on my phone during little timeouts and stuff. But at one point, it was 38 to 25. And it was seven minutes up in the second quarter. We were 10 for 31,

two for 15 from three. And Miami was six for 12 scored two two straight field goals Spoh immediately timeout he just would never let the Celtics get any sort of flow but the reality is Butler and Caleb Martin were better than Jalen and Tatum in this game certainly arguably for the series probably a slight edge with the way Martin played Martin was I, I mean, you look at where he ended up. Do you want to hear this or maybe not? Well, I think he had 26 points unless he scored after we lost. Well, he played 45 minutes today and was guarding everybody on one end. And then on the offensive end, patience. If you just watch this one series and you were like rank the wings in this series, like Jalen Brown obviously would have been fourth because he was terrible.

We'll talk about that later. But Martin went from this bench guy to this guy who basically they couldn't take him out of the game. For the series, he was 19 a game. He shot 60%. He shot 49% from three. Over and over again. You said it when we were walking home.

It was like every time they got it to seven, he'd make a shot. Every time there was a little bit of a run, he'd make a shot. You think we could trade Brown for Martin and we give Martin the $50 million? I mean, he looked deserving of that $50 million. Yeah, that was pretty tough. We've been to a lot of these over the years. And not just game sevens, but big games that were especially deflating where walking in, the energy of the crowd was unbelievable. It felt like the roof was

going to come off. Great crowd. The crowd was basically in their seats 25, 30 minutes before the game. They're running 2004 Red Sox stuff. They're running the white play. People explode. White comes out. People are just cheering for him when he's on the court. you just couldn't ask for a better crowd. And then within six minutes, the crowd was dead. But it reminded me, there was pieces of these different bad Celtic playoff losses, like when LeBron

in 2012 in Game 6, when he killed us. With that, 2009 Game 7 against Orlando was another one. 2005 against Indiana, that was another game seven where they just sucked right away, couldn't get it going. The 2018 Cavs game, where the sets were a little closer,

but it was very similar where there's just a lid on the basket. They couldn't get over the hump. Even the man in front of us, Mike, he commented, this reminds him of that Cleveland game. The Terry Rozier game. We couldn't hit a three in that game. Yeah. But this game was different, though.

You know, you come back from 0-3, the crowd was really in it to start this game. And I think there was an optimism that wasn't necessarily in some of the other games you mentioned. And as soon as Tatum got hurt, and you saw him limping off the court, and then Miami went on a little run. Well, first he got hurt. And then all of a sudden the Celtics were in their late fourth quarter offense of walking it up. We had no pace. We weren't getting any fast break stuff. And you could feel Butler starting to assert control of the game a little bit early. And all of a sudden they had a lead.

I think it was 15-13. But we were watching Tatum going, uh-oh. Well, and when they got the lead up to seven or eight, they took the crowd out of the game. Yeah. Tatum came out in four minutes left in the first quarter. I think probably more, six minutes. Yeah, or six minutes, something like that. Yeah.

He was sitting on the bench by himself, and his body language was awful. As the unofficial body language doctor, I was watching, and I was like, oh, man, this is not good. Well, I don't know if you noticed, but each time there was a timeout or the players went to the bench and they got up to start play again, somebody had to take his hand to help him get out of the seat. Yeah, and he had the adrenaline going the first half, but in the second half, he couldn't, he realized he couldn't go side to side anymore. Right.

So they started trying to isolate him a little bit. You know, all of that, that's certainly a major factor, but the other major factor is everybody in that building, walking into that building, knew Miami was going to play zone. Right. Now,

have the Celtics ever practiced against the zone? Yeah, it was so weird. They had Horford on the foul line, but he didn't really want to shoot. And it almost seemed like if you're going to play zone like this, almost play, I guess Tatum was hurt, but even just play Tatum at the center spot so he could be at the foul line.

Put somebody who's a scorer at the foul line. There were some really weird subs. Like they threw out Brogdon, and Brogdon was, I think, a minus 15 in like five minutes. But you could see his first shot almost killed the ball boy. Yeah, it did. And so we knew that was a bad sign. His second shot was a missed layup.

Yeah, and he just didn't look right. He said after the game, I quickly checked Twitter. He said, we just played tight. I think that was part of it, but I thought Miami played with incredible purpose. They knew who they were. They knew who their six, seven guys were. Even Lowry, who was dog shit the whole series, he had some good moments. He did. He had some good playmaking moments too. And he was, you know, the Celts were just so sloppy, the turnovers. Russell and I talked in yesterday's pod about there's turnovers and then there's those unforced error turnovers

that are like the double faults in tennis. Yeah. Or like somebody in a sand trap just hitting it out over the green on the other side. You mean like every time Jalen Brown dribbles? Yeah, it's tough. I got to say, I hadn't been to a playoff game this year. There was a lot of grumbling in the stands with Jalen and Smart,

even when the game was close, where when those guys are on fast breaks and it doesn't work out, you can eat the crowd is almost like Little League parents. Like, come on. What are we doing? There was that guy over my right shoulder screaming, take Brown out, take Brown out. Now, this is a guy that is potentially going to get $50 million a year from the Celtics,

and you have a fan screaming, take Brown out. That kind of told us a lot about, he was awful. He was terrible. He was awful. And hench text to me this, that when Kareem got hurt in game six of 1980 and Magic stepped up for Kareem, that that was like a 10 out of 10 on the, I'm stepping up for my injured teammate scale. And he's like, was Jalen a one? Was he a one and a half? What happened to him in that game? For the series, Jalen was 56 for 134 shooting, 42%. He was seven for 43 from three. Oh, that's great. He had 25 turnovers. He took 133 points on 100, or he scored 133 points on 134 shots.

And a lot of the turnovers were bad. And the thing is like, and we'll talk about Jalen after the break, but we like Jalen. We want, you know, we thought we had something here with the Tate brown combo but now this is 2017 18 20 22 23 where they've fallen apart in these big games offensively where it just doesn't seem like anybody can well create a basket you and i are walking in we're saying you know saturday there was seven foot 35 on the three now it's everybody knows this team is built around the three-point shot for better or for worse. And all the stats are out there, how well we play when we hit 40% of our threes. And there's no way in the world I thought we could shoot worse than we did Saturday night.

We were worse than Saturday night. Nine for 42. So two games, it was 16 for 77. Let's take a break and we'll keep going. Make a fast break to FanDuel during the NBA playoffs. Right now, new customers can get a no-sweat first bet up to $1,000. That is $1,000 back in bonus bets if your first bet doesn't win. We're going to do a big finals boost. I will tweet it out probably on Wednesday.

Stay tuned for that. Very excited. I hit three boosts in a row and then barely lost the last one. But we'll see if we can get a little series boost or a game one boost. I don't know what's going to be it. Fandle has great promotions every day on a safe and secure app that pays you instantly when you win. There's no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sports book. Visit fanduel.com slash BS. Get a no-sweat first bet up to $1,000. That

is fanduel.com slash BS. FanDuel, the official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus in select states. First online real money wager only. $10 deposit required. Refund issue does not withdraw a bonus. Bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See full terms at Fando.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Visit Fando.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, or Virginia. 1-800-NEXTSTEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona.

888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut, 809 with it in Indiana, 800-522-4700, or visit ksgamblinghelp.com in Kansas, 877-770-STOP in Louisiana, 800-327-5050, or visit mahelpline.org slash problemgambling in Massachusetts. Visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. 8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. 800-522-4700 Wyoming or 1800gamber.net in West Virginia. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. When you ride transit, please be safe.

Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming.

See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really.

Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. So we talked about the threes right before we went to the break. I think one criticism I had with this team, and I do think it was coaching staff related. We haven't talked about Joe yet. But I think this team and the organization was very analytics based. And I think they really wanted this team to shoot a lot of threes,

which is great. But you watch a game like this where the threes can go sideways. This happened to Houston in 2018. This happened to the Celtics in 2018, where there's no plan B. My biggest frustration today, I felt like they had, you know, they belatedly discovered Derek White was able to just get into the paint and beat Gabe Vincent off the dribble and beat mismatches. And the Heat actually aren't great at guarding point guards. And they didn't really go to that till game seven. Marcus, it felt like every time they posted him up, he either got himself a really nice shot against Vincent or Struess, or he was able to pass out of a double team. They never did that. And it was just again

and again, it was them dribbling up 25, 27 feet, them setting one pick, and then somebody trying to beat somebody off a dribble or barrel into the paint. This is what we watched last year against the Warriors. Right. So why hasn't this team, and you're going, you've had this year 50th year of season tickets. You've been going all year.

How does this team, how did this team not improve from an IQ standpoint on that specific thing? Well, it's a really good question. And I guess at some point we have to talk about coaching and making adjustments during a game. But I go back to the point I made right before the break. They knew Miami was going to be in a zone. Yeah. You set up your offense to beat the zone. You don't continue to take 23 foot,, 25-foot three-point shots. Jalen Brown, how many times did he come down,

dribble a couple of dribbles past half court and throw up a three-point shot? That wasn't going to go in. So there's no movement of the ball. He had two free throws and nine threes. Yeah. And eight turnovers. And five personal fouls, which he had at least three

offensive fouls. I just go back to the, uh, the coaching setting up for the game. You know, Miami's going to play zone. You knew that, you knew they weren't going to play Zeller. You knew they're going to play Highsmith. You knew they were probably going to go smaller. You knew they were going to play Martin and Bam and Butler a ton of minutes. So like you said, and particularly once Tatum got hurt, put him at the foul line. Right. Have him be the fulcrum for passing the ball

in and out, in and out. Don't take threes that are contested with 20 seconds left on the clock, but they never adjusted. Well,

they also, they weren't afraid of a bunch of our shooters. Miami, over and over again, they could clear out a whole side of the floor because they could put three guys on the other side. You could really see it in person.

Yeah. And when we had like Grant Williams out there or Horford, they were just leaving those guys alone. They never wanted to give us a side of the court. Yeah, Grant, they said Grant's elbow was hurting. He can't make the three that he used to make. Horford lost his legs. That was kind of obvious. He played a lot of minutes. Yeah, he played too many minutes.

Yeah, too many minutes. And also he was coaching the team. You were telling me this was happening. I didn't really fully realize it. They call timeouts and Horford sits in the coach's chair and coaches for like two minutes as Joe's with his four assistant coaches that we found in store 24 a month ago. We don't understand what's going on. I didn't recognize one of the assistant coaches. Did any of those guys play in the NBA? Who are they? Who are those four guys? I couldn't tell you the name of any of them. But I mean, honestly, you could have been out there with a clipboard. It would have been like,

all right, recognize him. But Al Horford's there coaching. And then sometimes Smart will come in and he's coaching. And then Joe comes back with like 20 seconds left to time out. And I'm like, here's my idea. I thought we could just dribble right into the zone again. We're going to break that zone eventually, guys. Yeah, it's bizarre to watch. I watched it all season, particularly in the playoffs, though. Well, you were the first person who jumped out on Joe. Because in around December, you're like, I don't really get it. He just chews gum and claps.

And then at the all-star break, he stopped chewing gum. And you were like, he stopped chewing gum, but the clapping has continued. Yeah. Again, we lived and we died by the three and never made adjustments to have any other kind of offense. And that's great when you're hitting 40% of your threes. You know, instead of 0 for 11, if we started 5 for 11, it would have been a different game. But we haven't been shooting that well. So, and again, I don't want to be redundant, but you don't, yeah, you prepare for the zone. You know it's coming. Have a different offense.

Move the ball around from the post out back to the post. Rob Williams only played 14 minutes. I didn't even know that. 8.6 rebounds. Grant Williams played more minutes than him. Smart only played 35 minutes. He wasn't great, but White was the best player on the team today.

He was. And White came off, you know, it's been two days of Derek White talk and Celtics and comparing the Joe Henderson and the Burt Stills the ball. And everybody likes the guy so much. ESPN had a big feature about him today. And he's a guy, like he's a coveted guy around the league

because he's just kind of a makes everybody better, like he's a coveted guy around the league because he's just kind of a makes everybody better. Doesn't take a lot of stuff off the table. And when he started kind of bringing them back in the third quarter, it was like, oh my God, if he fucking brings them back, this will be like, this guy's going to be like a legend in Boston. What happens to that great win now? I mean, they lose the series. Does that, that win just kind of goes sideways. I think it goes sideways. It's almost like the Henderson home run.

Yeah, goes sideways a little bit. Although at least the Henderson home run, we made the World Series. I think he was one of the, I think at one point we had gotten it down to seven and I think he took a three point shot and unfortunately it didn't go in. Yeah, we can never get over it. You always call it the hump.

That seven, six, seven points felt like we just couldn't get it closer. Couldn't get over that hump. There were a couple of strange offensive calls against us by the refs. Yeah, there was a couple of weird travels in opportune times. Tatum got called for travel. I've never even seen him travel. But of course, Jalen Brown. Yeah, let's talk about that.

What do we do with this? Because we probably watched the last Grant Williams help the game, I'm guessing, because this new salary cap we have, I just don't see how they're going to be able to resign him. Yeah, I heard your podcast this morning. It doesn't sound like they can resign him. Or if they do, they're going to have to take a huge beating

with the luxury tax. Unless they do something different with Jalen Brown. Or I guess maybe the other move is you could trade Brogdon or there's the Jalen Brown trade. And then the Jalen Brown thing, the series was so bad for him. It really, like 20 years ago, and it wasn't as bad as this, but when Antoine just got destroyed by Kenya Martin in that net series, and you came out of that series, and it just,

you came out of that series and you're like, is this guy, is this guy like, can he be the second best player in a title team? I'm not there. I'm not like at that rock bottom with Jalen, but this was, you know,

he's 26 years old. He's been in the league since 2016 and, and he's basically the same player, but I don't think he's as good defensively as he used to be. And I don't think he prioritizes it the same way either. He has lapses on defense for sure. I know we laugh about it a little bit, but he can't dribble. The dribbling is really tough.

How can you be a professional second team, all NBA, and you can't dribble? There's three teams in the league that when they just basically dive at the ground when he's dribbling to the basket, they just lurch down. And Golden State was the one that unlocked it. Miami does it to him. The Knicks were doing it to him a little bit. There's only a couple of teams that kind of see it, but he really struggles. Did you say he had eight turnovers?

Yeah. It seemed to me they were all unforced. Yeah. He had at least three offensive fouls. He took a couple bad threes. I really like Jalen Brown. I think he had a weird season dating back to the

KD trade rumors, which weren't his fault. And a couple weird interviews. There's been a lot of buzz around the league about, you know, Oh, he's not staying like stuff like that, that you hear it enough. And I start wondering like,

all right, there's gotta be some, some smoke here. If this, maybe it's going to come out. I mean, we know that he injured his finger with some mysterious issue at home with a, he cut his hand on a vase.

Yes. But then in one of the games, he hurt his hand as well. And maybe that, it was his dribbling hand, his right hand. This is a good theory, except for the part he couldn't dribble last year either.

Well, that is true. But there was real, the crowd was pretty ornery by like six, seven day turnovers. Cause it was just like watching somebody do the same dumb thing over and over again. And I don't think he's a dumb player.

Just the crowd gets, it's not only the turnovers, it's the lack of team play because he's standing out there trying to make a move all by himself. The four other Celtics are standing around. He makes his move, either dribbles off his foot, dribbles, or somebody steals the ball. But ultimately, you're like pro Jalen. I have been pro Jalen.

It's just when we're talking about now he's going to be a $45 million a year guy, that's when you take a gulp because I think that's a tough one. It changes the equation a little bit in terms of how you look at a player. I don't look at him as a 45 to $50 million a year player. And I don't think either of us think of him as the second team all NBA guy. I mean, there was a bunch of injuries at the four position, but I think he's a great guy to have on your team. And I love the connection he has with Tatum. I just, deep was a bunch of injuries at the forward position. But I think he's a great guy to have on your team. And I love the connection he has with Tatum.

I just, deep down, I just feel like there's a chance that was his last Celtic game. Because the Belichick move, we know what Belichick would do. Yeah. I know we need to prevent ourselves from overreacting to the one game. You know, he's been a great Celtic. It was not the one game. I would say it was the one series. You know, he's been a great Celtic. It was not the one game. I would say it was the one series. The series, I guess.

Yeah. And we don't know how hurt he was, but no, I'm just looking forward. Like, yeah, if you're, if you're paying him and Tatum, they can stagger it by a year, I guess, if they give him the extension this year and Tatum next year. But just where are you going if those are your two guys? And we, Russell and I covered in the podcast we did Sunday, how the NBA is moving toward this Hollywood system, basically of you get your two stars in your poster and then it's role players from that point on. And if you're going to pay that much money for somebody, it's, you got to make sure they work. The bigger issue for me is Tatum, Smart, and Brown together as a threesome over and over

again. 2018, Tatum's a rookie that year and Jalen's barely getting his feet wet in the playoffs. 2020, last year and this year, all the series kind of ended for the same reasons because offensively, teams just solved us. They really unlocked it. And it was just a lot of guys dribbling and people throwing around and people jacking up threes. And there wasn't an offense. Like I went to those Denver games against the Lakers and like anytime there was tension, anytime that the game was going a little sideways,

the other team was making a run, Denver could just go back, called Jokic their little binky, they would just go grab their binky and it was Jokic and he'd create a shot for somebody, that's what the Celtics unless Tatum was feeling it they just didn't have that guy and you know now this is three out of four years where they

came really close to either being in the finals or winning a title and there was that one last piece they didn't have. Miami had it today. We saw it all playoffs though. And even at the end of the year, the way Missoula coached, he'd take Tatum out first and then Brown,

Brown would be in charge of keeping the offense together. Inevitably, if we had a lead, we'd lose the lead. If we didn't have the lead, we'd be down by more when you put Tatum back in there. So I never felt that Jalen Brown could carry the team if Tatum wasn't out there, which troubles me in terms of, is that the guy you're going to spend $50 million on? I don't know. It's a really tough situation they're put in

I have to go back to coaching though this coaching staff built this team around making the three point shot they didn't have an offense that moved the ball inside for post plays

inside outside it was really move the ball around the perimeter and take a shot. Yeah. And they didn't use Tatum and Smart, like their ability to put their back to the basket really at all. Never. And you and I have talked about, I think Tatum is a great post player. Yeah.

He's at least, I always judge it by how the other team reacts. And when they post them up, the other team reacts. They'll send a second guy, like they don't like it. Did you see him post it up once tonight? No, no, not. It was tough. It wasn send a second guy. They don't like it. Did you see him posted up once tonight? No. It was tough. It wasn't a great Joe game. I think Joe probably saved his job by

coming back from the 3-0 would be my guess. I think if they got swept, especially after they rolled over in game three, I think that was a wrap. I think now you can talk yourself into it. We'll get him a better system. I'm not sure if I agree with you. I mean, all the coaches are getting hired right now. Yeah, I know. I think I would have liked to have seen Nick Nurse maybe be considered,

but he's gone now. He's gone to Philly. He was pretending he was choosing between Philly and Phoenix, which was the erroneous reporting. Phoenix already has their coach. They're going with Kevin Young. I'm not sure what the Celtics do now. You have a coach. Are you talking about what are they doing with the coach or the team? Well, both. I think you have a couple of decisions. You have more than a couple of decisions. You have Grant Williams' decision. You have the Jalen Brown huge money decision. You have the Joe Mazzola coaching decision. You're right, though. I couldn't tell you the name of any of the other coaches out there.

They never brought in. Did they have a contest where they added the two assistant coaches? Like if you made a half court shot, you got to be the fourth assistant coach? I don't think Brad Stevens is blameless in this. Oh, definitely not. He had opportunities to bring in a veteran coach to help Missoula or two veteran coaches to help Missoula. Or how about he helps Missoula? He's the coach.

Yeah. Let's take a break and then we'll talk about what are the Celtics do going forward and then what we think will happen with Nuggets Eat. At Wealthsimple, we're built for whatever you're building built for jane who wants to break into the housing market we're built for ted who's obsessed with what's happening in the global markets and built for celine who just wants to retire and explore the world's flea markets so take a moment and think about what you're building for. We've got the financial tools to help make it happen. Wealthsimple. Built for possibilities. Visit wealthsimple.com slash possibilities. for $50 million a year, I don't think so. Then I don't think he's taking a discount.

Well, and here's the other thing. This is what happens with the NBA. If it's even in the water that Boston's like, whoa, that's a lot of money. Then you have Houston. You have, I don't know, anybody with cap space or you have a team like Atlanta that could trade some pieces back to the Celtics

and they're floating through intermediaries like, hey man, we'd pay the 50 million. We think Jalen's amazing. He's the number one guy. Put him on our team. He'd be great. Or put him with Trey Young or put him, you know, we'll make him the focal point, him and Harden in Houston or whatever it is. So this is like having a relationship with somebody that's not going that great. And then they go out to the bar with their friends and they're just getting hit on at the bar. And they're like, yeah, maybe I won't stay with Bob anymore. All these guys think I'm great.

And then my last game, I had eight turnovers and people were kind of booing me in the crowd. Maybe I'll leave. Well, he might be feeling that way right now because I think he's a very bright young man. He certainly could hear the crowd. Well, especially because the crowd was barely audible except for, you know, one of the reasons I had a bad feeling about the game, we sat down, usually this section's all Celtic fans, and the row behind us were these two obnoxious Heat fans who probably became Heat fans when LeBron joined the team in 2010.

They didn't even know who Sam Hauserer's name was, so I was like, oh, you guys are serious fans. Houser's played in multiple games as a guy. But these guys, anytime that happens, I always think it's a bad sign. It was really annoying. And obviously in the second half, they got louder and louder. Yeah, they got louder. And Jimmy

Butler was their guy. I was kind of waiting for Fitzmer for Sully to just come over and punch one of them in the face. Yeah, they got louder. And Jimmy Butler was their guy. I was kind of waiting for Fitzmer for Sully to just come over and punch one of them in the face. Yeah. But anyway, the Jalen thing. I mean, what do you think they do? I don't think he'll take a discount like you said. Do you give him? I

said this a week ago and I still feel like it's a trade that makes a ton of sense. If Scoot's going to be there at three and Portland's picking three and they're going to keep Dame and they want to be good right away, I think there's a trade there somewhere that can make a ton of sense. And Charlotte's the other one. Charlotte has two, and maybe they want to put a veteran with Lomelo, right? They have money too.

Well, the other problem that now is going to surface, because we're talking about it, and I'm sure we're going to be reading about it in the paper, and it certainly will be online. Jalen now is going to start hearing rumors. Yeah, and we already know that affects them. But listen, this shit comes with the territory. And unfortunately, this is the transactional nature of basketball now, where these guys move every year.

And every time there can only be one winner, there can only be two finals teams. Every time a season doesn't turn out the way you think, everybody starts looking around and wondering, oh, you know, Golden State's really the only one that's kept it together. I've always been in the never split up the Jays camp.

When you made the second team on NBA, that was the first time I was like, this might not be realistic because if these are your two best guys make it 100 million years wings you can't then get outplayed by butler and caleb barton in a series right and he's got jaylen tatum i still feel like has another level to go to but i think jaylen is pretty much what he is at this point he's a he's a top 25 player he's a 25 point a game-a-game scorer. I don't think he's as good defensively as he used to be. And we've seen multiple playoff teams

really take him out of his game in a playoff series. Yeah, they do take him out of his game. His regression in defense is puzzling because he was a really good defensive player. He has lapses. We're a team that it feels like we would have just a lot of answers for

Jimmy Butler and Caleb Martin. We have so much size and wings and really good defensive players. Smart's the other one that, you know, just doesn't seem quite the same defensively. He had some nice moments in this Miami series, but I wouldn't say he was just taking people out. No, I wouldn't. Certainly, I don't think he was the player this year that he was last year. No, and he might be hurt. That might be another one where it's almost like a hockey team where

the hockey season ends and then you find out, oh, our goalie had a fractured pelvis. We saw Tatum get hurt tonight in the beginning. It looked like White pulled a hamstring in the fourth quarter. Yeah, the game was over. He went to the locker room. Yeah. I'm not sure who would have had to play on Thursday night against Denver. So if I gave you over, under one and a half, Grant comes back, Jalen comes back,

and Missoula comes back. I don't think any of those three possibly come back. You think Missoula might go? Yeah. You were at a lot of games. I went to a lot of games, and the owner sat in that first row, three rows in front of us, watching the coaching and watching these games,

watching how unprepared we were for the zone. Yeah. Well, how unprepared we were for the zone. Yeah. Well, how unprepared we were in every series. Atlanta kind of figured out something against the Celts the last couple games. And honestly, if Trey doesn't go cold in the second half of game six, that probably goes seven, which

would have been crazy. And then Philly, also the home losses. I was just going to say that. This team's two games under 500 at home in the playoffs in the last two years. I mean, think about Miami beat us three games at home. Right. That's ridiculous. Six playoff losses.

So you play all season to get a higher seed because home court matters. And we had a pretty good home record during the season. Yeah. But not in the games that mattered, obviously, in the playoffs. It's hard to figure. I mean, we have a good crowd. That crowd was behind the team. Also hard to figure. Miami was an eighth seed. Miami was 17 and 24 on the road. Miami didn't have Tyler Harrow, who was either their second or third best player. I mean, I think the basketball insiders

would say he's third, but I think from a scoring standpoint, it was their second best option. Terrific coach. Terrific coach and some Ewing Theory stuff with Tyler Hero, it felt like. Yeah. Where because he didn't play,

now you got to play Gabe Vincent more. Now you got to play Duncan Robinson, who really hurt us. And you said Caleb Martin. And Caleb Martin. Average nine points a game. Boy, that guy looked like an all pro the whole series. I didn't want to see the heat the whole year.

People who listen to this podcast, I was like the boy who cried wolf. Then I had Mike Schur come on and he was even more crazy than I was. They were playing the, so they played the two playing games, right? They play the Hawks. They lose to the... So they played the two playing games, right? They played the Hawks. They lose to the Hawks by 11. Gabe Vincent's two for six in the game. Caleb Martin played 29 minutes. He was 0 for three.

Duncan Robinson got a DMP. And Struis was one for five. So that was their first playing game. Then they play the Bulls. And in that game, they were losing in the fourth quarter and came roaring back and won. Adebayo was one for nine. Gabe Vincent was 0 for 2.

And Caleb Martin was 2 for 4 in the playing game. And the Bulls could have knocked them out for us, and then we never would have had to worry about them again. But as the series went along, he played, in the Milwaukee series, he played 26.8 minutes. He played 28.3 in the Knicks series, and then he played 35.7 against us. Cresting with 45 and 41 the last two games. And honestly, I thought he should have been MVP.

As good as Butler is, I thought Martin was their best two-way player. When we walked home, you asked me who I thought they were going to pick for the Larry Bird MVP. I thought it would be Martin, but they picked Butler. They picked Butler, but the vote was five to four, which I thought was interesting. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought it should have been Martin. On the other hand, Jimmy Butler is terrifying. There's definitely a presence with him, especially when Tatum got hurt and jalen wasn't playing well and you could see butler even though he wasn't it wasn't like he was going nuts but he's carrying himself a certain way right

and attacking and he's just felt very alpha and then bam was the other one that uh just seems like every time you felt like you're making a run, he would get some crazy offensive rebound or some sort of play. Jimmy Butler, he's one of those guys, watching him, it seems like he can score any time he really feels like scoring. Right. That he can get to the basket, he can overpower the defender. I mean... And he's the terrible three-point shooter who then somehow makes three-pointers

when he actually needs to make them. He made a really big one tonight when we were making a run. He made a couple of big ones. You know, you and I, when we went to the game, we were talking about the terrible feelings you have when you have to walk out of the garden after a really bad loss. It was a terrible feeling walking out of that garden. But you think like the KG era ends basically

in 2012 and then in 2013 officially they make the Nets trade and then really going through 2016 they make the playoffs but then 2017 through it's a seven year run where they had five of the seven years

they were playing until the end of May at least. Then compared to Miami they made one finals two eastern conference finals miami was two finals one eastern conference final um and they've been in the mix but if you're miami um it's it just feels a little more impressive because i don't feel like they had as much talent and especially how they were finding these pieces. You know, that was another thing with the Celtics is as the white trade was great, Brogdon trade I think was good for the regular season,

but they never were able to find that, you know, the Gallinari injury. We were saying today during the game, this would have been like a perfect Gallinari game with Tatum hurt. They always felt like they were a guy short. Now Miami felt like they were two guys short, but it didn't matter. Miami, on the other hand, has had a consistent front office and coaching staff.

Yeah. And that makes a huge difference. I mean, we've had three coaches in two years, right? Right. Do you blame Imei for this? I don't know. It's hard not to, right? Right. Do you blame Ime for this? I don't know. It's hard not to, right? I mean, at least for a piece of this. They had such a good thing with him last year,

and he just had an egregious error of judgment. Even though some of the facts haven't come out, like we know it was not great. I don't know enough about the situation, except that what I liked about him as a coach was his stress on defense. And the accountability. And if somebody sucked, he would just yank them. Yeah. All right. So your predictions are you think that was the last Jalen Brown game? Unless he's willing to take less than the $50 million.

What would Belichick do? He'd sell right now and get as many good pieces back as he can. Try to get some pieces to keep building around Tatum going forward. So the reason not to do that is you feel like you got maybe one more year with Horford as a rotation guy. You're losing Graham Williams. Tatum's going to be 26 next year. You have a specific championship window. And you try to look at big picture that obviously Brogdon's going to probably have some surgery on his wrist. I thought Brogdon was terrific all year. Yeah, that hurt them that he wasn't. I mean, he's hurt. He's six man of the year.

You don't become six man of the year because you played poorly. You know, I'm glad you brought that up. And we should have brought that up sooner than the 40 minute mark. One of the things that was great about them was if Tatum and Brown didn't have it, or it was a game like today where nobody was making threes, they would put Brogdon and White together and they would really push it. And they were great. And they would get fast break stuff and they would swing games.

Yeah. And losing Brogdon definitely helped. But, you know, Miami didn't have heroes, so. Yeah. But, you know, you look at next year, trying to look big picture again, Tatum's healthy, Brown's healthy, Brogdon's healthy again. Well, the fear with- Gallinari's there. Gallinari's back, Got away for another year.

The fear with Jalen is give him the contract and then two months in he's like, you know what? I actually don't want to be here. Yeah. Because we've seen that happen before.

I think What do you think's going to happen? I mean I think the biggest mistake this team made was the KD stuff. I think Putting it out there

or not denying it. I just think you come out and you say, we're not splitting up this team. We want to build around these two guys. If you read any trade rumor about Tatum or Brown, don't believe it. These are our guys. And they didn't do it. And I thought, you know, which makes me think they probably talked to the Nets a little bit about

Jalen Brown and the Nets leaked it immediately. Well, maybe that was a mistake. On the other hand, that didn't affect how poorly Jalen Brown played tonight. Right. Or the other way, maybe they should have made the trade. Yeah, I guess. Look at it that way. I mean, I'm glad they did it.

I wanted those guys to grow old together. And this week is the first week I feel like, wow, this probably isn't, these guys aren't going to be teammates for their whole career. You asked me what I thought was going to happen because of the $50 million. I'd prefer to see him stay. I'd prefer to see everybody healthy next year. You throw Brogdon and Gallinari out there with this team, I think you can afford to play without Grant Williams. I just don't know if you can pay two players that much money in this era. Unless they're, it's Durant, Booker. Yeah.

And you said in the beginning of the podcast, Butler and Caleb Martin were better than Taylor and Brown. Yeah. For the whole series. The whole series. Yeah. Now I'm depressed. Well, here's why you wouldn't split them up.

The Bucs, I don't know what happens with Chris Middleton this summer, but they're not going to be able to keep Brooke Lopez. They're going to be worse this year. The Sixers, Harden might be leaving. The Cavaliers, you know, they were a freaking mess in the playoffs. They might be two years away. The Knicks, they're still a star away. Brooklyn,

who the hell knows? Atlanta, I don't trust them at all. Chicago, Toronto, Miami, Indiana. Watch, going down the line, it's like the West is way better than the East now. Let me ask you though, bring all those guys back. Do you want to see the same offense with the same head coach? I don't. I don't want to watch that again. I don't want an offense that's totally dependent on making three point shots. That, that was never the Celtic way. And, uh, it's boring to watch. It's as a fan, I hate that offense. I didn't feel the same attachment to this team from a, I think this team can win the title.

I really believe in this team standpoint because of the threes and how haphazard the offense was. And anytime anybody was asking me, um, what I thought would happen with these guys. I'm like, I don't know, man. If we make threes and we play defense, we usually win. And I never know what's going to happen. But you don't, we don't say that about any other team. Right. I mean, every other team has an offense that can make adjustments. It's not dependent on one type of basketball.

Make the long three-point shot. So where did this rank for most disappointing losses for you? Not in the top tier. Because I think both of us had some questions. I'm already in the record. I thought Denver, I think Denver is going to wax either of these teams. I think they're going to beat Miami. Yeah. I probably would agree with you, but I still would have liked to have been in the finals again. Yeah. It's always fun. The finals are a whole different beast. I really thought we were going to win tonight.

And I thought we had the momentum. They had the vibe in the crowd. It was a very, very confident, happy crowd. I mean, you made a comment walking home. It really is hard to beat a team four times in a row. Yeah, any team. Yeah, but it just seemed like we were going to do it tonight. Does Caleb Martin, I remember like the second year you had season tickets when we lost to the 75 Bullets, which is like the first playoff series

I kind of vaguely remember. And they had this guy, Nick Witherspoon, that just lit us up. Remember? Yeah, you do have guys that have great series and disappear. He killed us. Andrew Toney was really good, so it wasn't disappear. He killed us. Andrew Toney was really good, so it wasn't shocking when he killed us, but he killed us to the point that they had to go and trade

for Dennis Johnson to try to solve the issue. We had that Indiana series when Chuck Person, that was his one great moment when they almost beat us. There was in 2002 that Kerry Kittles and all those guys, like just, we couldn't keep those guys off. We're on our test in 2010, hit that three. So there's guys over the years, Caleb Martin is going to end up on that,

whatever list that is of, I can't believe that fucking guy. I don't know. Is this the start of like an incredible career for him or was this the highlight? I don't know. You know, we haven't brought it up, butami is a crazy team what do they have seven undrafted players yeah they have a chip on their shoulder how do they keep finding these people yeah i mean we had strews in camp and we let them go yeah um but all right so we both think

deborah beats miami. I would think so. Do you think Heat culture has replaced Celtics culture? I'm not sure. We've won one title since 1986. What is Celtic culture right now? I don't know. It's three-point offense. You just want something.

We haven't won a title in 15 years. Yeah. That's a long time. The only thing I was against tonight was the game was going sideways. And in the second quarter, they had the Millar video they made, but we were down

like 11. And it was like, why not us? And it was like, the vibe had already shifted. And it was like, we got to let the 2004 Red Sox thing go. Tatum's hurt. Miami seems super confident. Like we're good with the 04 comparisons. Yeah.

I know we're both going to be shaking our heads about the Tatum injury. Well, do you feel like the right team won? Cause I kind of feel like Miami was the right team. I mean, you know, we got really lucky in game six with one of the craziest endings to a playoff game. I think when you lose three of your four home games to the opposing team- It probably wasn't your year.

It probably wasn't your year to win, yeah. I don't understand it, but- You were so excited for the spring with the Bruins. The Bruins were the one seed. Now you have the Panthers and Miami in the finals. Two teams that you hate. You know, we did a podcast before the playoffs started and you asked me if there's going to be a duck boat parade,

which team was I more confident about? You said the Bruins? I said the Bruins. Yeah. Because the Celtic team has been so inconsistent shooting the threes. But obviously I was wrong on both teams. Well, now I guess we have Marcelo Mair got promoted to AA.

We have a whole month of trade rumors with different people at the Celtics. Maybe they'll hire an assistant coach we've heard of. I'm going to switch to the Patriots, I think. Pats? I can't watch this Red Sox team. Maybe some double-A baseball. Yeah. All right, Dad.

Well, I should have told this story at the top, but I had my finger over the purchase, the ticket button during the last four minutes of game six. And then when White scored, I pressed the button and I was like, I got to come. I can't miss this. I also kind of had to see second row Joe in person for myself instead of hearing your stories,

but I wanted to see the vibe. I don't regret coming back, but it's going to be a sad flight tomorrow. I'll tell you that much. I'm glad you came back. I'm sorry that you have a, let's see, you got in at 4.30 today. Yeah.

You're flying out in the morning. It's great. It's a lot of flying to see a terrible game that we just saw. At least somebody showed up today that cared about this. Yeah, you showed up. Yeah, I showed up. I wish it was me and Derek White. I was glad to be sitting next to you again.

It was fun. 50 years in the books. Yeah, 50 years. All right. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti. I'm going to be back either Wednesday or Thursday. Not sure which day for the third podcast of the week. Dad, thanks. Thank you. I feel the air twisting On the wayside I'm a bruised soul

I never was And I don't have To be