The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Case for Phoenix, Plus Stephanie McMahon on All Things WWE

Episode Date: April 9, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons shares his thoughts on the title-contending Phoenix Suns (3:00) before talking with WWE's chief brand officer Stephanie McMahon about the importance of the first 'WrestleMania,' the star power of the WWE Women’s Division, Andre the Giant stories, the upcoming 'WrestleMania 37,' what it’s like working for Vince McMahon, the future of WWE, and much more (27:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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All that's coming up first, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this late Thursday night after the Suns-Clippers game. I figured the Suns were going to lose tonight, but I wanted to talk about them anyway. They really impressed me in Utah. Wednesday night, they won in overtime. It was one of the best games of the year. It felt like a real playoff game. It felt like a possible West Finals preview if we don't have Anthony Davis at 100% or LeBron at 100%. Whatever. There's weird scenarios. It's this

kind of year where you just don't know. Short in season, the weird injuries so close to last year, I'm prepared for anything. And I figured they would lose tonight and they lost in a way that made sense. They didn't really have their legs and the Clippers shot the lights out. They were 19 for 37 from three. But if you look at the Suns, big picture, they're 36 and 15, but they're 28 and seven in their last 35 day, including tonight. They only have four double digit losses over that stretch. And there's some other good things about their season that I wanted to hit. But here's the big picture premise I want to give you. This would be the sexiest NBA championship storyline. And I know everybody's going,

no, no, no, it would be LeBron. No, no, no, it would be Durant winning in Brooklyn. You got to think about the history of the Phoenix Suns here. I'm going to go through it right now. So the Suns, they come into the league in the late 60s. They have a chance to get Lew Alcindor, who eventually became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

when he changed his name. We know he is the most important person, the surest thing who's ever come into the league at that time. They have a one and two chance to get him. They have a coin flip, they lose. And that's really how the Suns franchise starts. They get Connie Hawkins, who's this New York playground legend who was banned from the NBA forever. They finally get him in 1972 instead of Kareem. And he's really elite for like two years

and then he kind of tails off. And it's just, it becomes a what if we got Kareem situation for the first seven years of the franchise. Then randomly, they make the finals in 1976 with Paul Westphal, John McLeod as the coach, Alvin Adams, Rookie of the Year. I was fortunate enough to go to the triple overtime game against Boston.

But that sets off this rollicking sun's ride of over and over again, they have managed to be relevant. So they make the West finals in 1979. They make the West finals in 84. They make the West finals in 84. They make the West finals in 89 and 90. They make the NBA finals in 93. They make the West finals twice in 05 and 06. And then they make the West finals again in 2010. They have this crazy 35 year run that you can separate into these definable eras, right? You have the Westfall era. You have the Walter Davis, Larry Nance era when they made it in 84.

You have the KJ Hornacek, Tom Chambers era in 89 and 90, where nobody's going to remember this except me and the Suns fans and three other people. But they have the Slugfest Western Finals in 1990 against Portland. And they lose game five. Game six is in Phoenix. They have the slugfest Western finals in 1990 against Portland. And in game, they,

they lose game five game six is in Phoenix. Kevin Johnson tweaks his hamstring like in the second quarter in game six and they're done and they end up losing. And Portland goes into the 1990 finals against Detroit. Who's trying to go back to back. And that, that series was actually closer than I think people remember. Detroit wins again.

But I do think Phoenix could have gone toe-to-toe with that Detroit team. We'll never know. KJ got hurt. Same thing for the 93 finals. They lose this slugfest to the Bulls. And part of the reason they lose is Kevin Johnson just is MIA in the first two games.

So that happens. So they have that. That's the Barkley era. Then in the late 90s, they have this kind of sneaky, fun Jason Kidd era where like Rex Chapman, Antonio McDyess, Danny Manning's on there. It's a fun team that never does anything, but at least it felt like something was happening. Same thing when Marbury shows up after they trade Kidd for Marbury. Marbury and Amari have a really fun

series against the Suns. Then it goes to Nash. Nash has his whole run from 04 to 2010, where they make the West finals three times and a bunch of what ifs that come in there. So they had these eras and now they're in the middle of another era. Their ability to consistently rejuvenate themselves has been astounding. But here's the crazy thing with Phoenix. And I think they're a unique franchise in this respect because they don't have, they're not in a big city. They don't have, it's not like the Red Sox when the Red Sox didn't win for 86 years and you had people like me and a million other people writing about it, whining about it. There's books. Nobody's writing a Phoenix Suns book.

But it's hard to imagine any team in the last 50 years that has had more what-ifs than the Phoenix Suns. Like, more real what-ifs. I'm not talking about, like, semi-flimsy what-ifs. I'm talking about what-ifs. What if we didn't get Kareem? What if we won the triple overtime game in Boston, which they easily could have, and then game six was in Phoenix?

What if KJ doesn't get hurt in that 1990 game? What if we don't have the cocaine scandal in 1984 where Walter Davis is headed to the Hall of Fame and they get this whole thing and all of a sudden it's complete chaos and they have to rebuild the team and they get lucky with the KJ trade. But that cocaine scandal is a what if. What if KJ shows up in the 93 finals? What if the Mary Ellie shot doesn't go in? What if Robert Sarver comes in in

2005 and 2006 if he actually spent money beyond what he did that first year with Steve Nash, Quentin Richardson. They splurged. Then all of a sudden they were selling picks and then they never were able to get over the hump. And there's, I wrote about this multiple times when I had my column, but they, you know, they basically gave away Luol Deng. They basically gave away a pick that became Rajon Rondo, et cetera, et cetera. What if the Horry shove never happened? One of the great what ifs of the last 20 years. If that just doesn't happen, do they beat the Spurs? Whoever was winning that series is going to win the title.

What if the Artest rebound on the Kobe airball in game four, 2010? Artest made one of the great plays of the last 12, one of the great thinking on your feet plays of the last 12 years in the last two rounds. Um, and he's a lunatic. What if they take Luka Doncic in 2018? Something we've mentioned on this podcast more than once. Those are 10 awesome. What ifs like 10 really like you fall asleep at night going, wow, what if that didn't happen? And the reason I mentioned this is the Luka thing seemed like it was going to suffocate them

for the entire 2020s. And Aiton is not a bust. Aiton is a good player who might even make an all NBA team someday. Who knows? He's like a really, really, really rich man Zubach would be the worst thing you could say about him. But it seemed like Luka, who I think has a chance to be the best offensive player when LeBron goes and Harden kind of calms down. Luka's going to be the guy who's going to be the best offensive player in the league for at least a decade. And they could have taken him and they didn't. And it seemed like that was going to hang over this team like a black cloud. And now they have a chance, I think, to make the finals. So what's the case for them to make the finals? They have an identity. And you think about

identities. I think about a lot with my Celtics team. My Celtics team, not really great at shooting threes, not great at getting to the free throw line. They play intermittently hard. They don't have a ton of size. You wouldn't say they're like the fastest team in the world. They don't really play well together. And you watch them over and over again. Dwayne Wade pointed this out on TNT the other night

because Shaq was like, I think they have an issue with Tatum and Brown. They got to decide who's who. And it's like, no, Shaq, you've watched think they have an issue with Tatum and Brown. They've got to decide who's who. No, Shaq, you've watched the Celtics twice this year. You're wrong. Then it goes to Wade, and Wade's like, they don't have an identity. And I'm like, bingo.

That's it. We don't have an identity. What are we? What is this team? I watch the Suns. They have an identity. They play with pace. They're efficient.

They know who they are. They have two guys who can create really, really, really good shots when it matters in Paul and Booker. And they have interchangeable wings. Sometimes they don't show up. Like tonight, Crowder was awful. It was one of the reasons they won.

But for the most part, pretty flexible team. Aiton allows them to basically play a bunch of smaller guys around them. And you look at the stats, they're averaging almost 115 points a game before tonight. Their shooting percentages were 49, 38, 83, which is really good, especially the 83, which we'll get to in a second. Seventh in offense, but 25th in pace. So think about that. They're playing about as slow as any contending team, but they're getting all the shots they want and they're giving them a high level of efficiency.

And they're also the third best free throw team in the league. And here's why that's important. If they're up three with 20 seconds left, the game's over. We used to see this with Curry and Clay for years and years and years, where if they had the ball up three last 30 seconds, game's over. We used to see this with Curry and Clay for years and years and years where if they had the ball up three last 30 seconds, it was over. If you fouled them, great, we're up five. If they could be on defense up three with 10 seconds left, then they'll just foul. Be like, cool, let's just turn this into a free throw shooting contest. We're going to win. Chris Paul's 93%, Booker's 86, Johnson's 88, Bridges and Crowder are both 82. They're winning a free throw shooting contest. So they got that. I think they know who their best five are.

It's CP3, Booker and Aiton. And then it's two of Johnson, Crowder, Bridges, depending on who shows up. They're all interchangeable. I personally think from what I've seen, and I've watched a lot of them this year, just because they're on the West Coast, I like watching them. I think Cam Johnson has to be out there and then Bridges ideally. But Crowder's a nice fallback plan. He can show up some games. Sarge, Payne, and Craig are the other three in their nine man. They don't have a backup center. That would be my fear. If I had to point, what are your two fears with this team not being able to win three rounds? It would be eight in foul trouble. What do they do if he has five fouls in a pivotal game halfway through the third quarter?

And then Chris Paul's health, can he last? And what kind of alien is Chris Paul is another thing we should ask. Because the stuff that he's doing, when you think about what Kareem did for the center position, how many minutes he played, how many games he played, how long he was good, where he wins the 71 finals MVP and he wins the 85 finals MVP almost 15 years apart. We just hadn't seen it before. Nobody had durability like that. You watch what

Karl Malone did at the power forward position. Same thing. You watch what LeBron is doing now. I don't even remember what year it is for him. It's 17 or 18. I think it's 18. And still playing at a really high level. He's over 60,000 minutes. It's like, wow, we haven't seen that. Chris is the point guard version of that. We don't, point guards don't age like this. Point guards are usually done as guys who can play more than 25 minutes a game by the time they're 35. You know, they had either, they become what John Stockton became in Utah.

They start to just lose it like Jason Kidd did, where he becomes basically a role player the last couple of his years in Dallas and New York. They lose it overnight like Dennis Johnson did on the Celtics or Tiny Archibald in 1983 for the Bucs or Oscar, that last Bucs season. He's still really good and he's 37 and he has a ton of miles on him. And if you compare him, the games played, the minutes played, all that stuff, and his production, which he's basically 17 and nine every night and same kind of shooting percentages. And you compare that to basically every point guard ever, he's alone. Nobody's done this. Nobody's done this at the level he's doing it, which is another reason this is such a fun story because you have Chris Paul, the perennial bridesmaid.

We did the whole book of basketball podcast about him, about his, how can you be the greatest point guard of all time if you've never made the finals? If we look at your post-season career and it's just littered with what ifs and losses. And I wish that hadn't happened. So you have that. You also have the Monty Williams piece, who by all accounts, one of the most beloved guys in the league, who's had a lot of personal tragedy that has been written about and talked about. Don't need to rehash that. But I didn't think he did a great job in New Orleans. I think that team was probably a little more talented than we give it credit for that. But I didn't think he did a great job in New Orleans. I think that team was probably a little more talented than we give it credit for now, but he's also a second, a second job guy.

And he's been really good on this Suns team and, you know, the possible storyline of him making it combined with Dave whiff on the Luca pick. But you know, what if they get to the finals before Dallas did, there's just a lot going on here. And then there's also the Chris Paul trade that they made, which I've certainly taken shots at Sarver over the years for trying to save money, for making decisions motivated by money, for some of the moves they've made. But that Chris Paul trade, taking on that money, looking at a Devin Booker situation that the way that the NBA goes these days, you just have to be proactive. If you have a young star

who isn't really winning, who's being thrown in trade rumors all the time, we know how that goes. And we know that this is an NBA that if you had the unhappy stars under 28, you're on a time clock with them. The Celtics are on a time clock with Tatum now, as crazy as that sounds. He's only 23. He just signed a deal, but you got to do right by these guys because you never know when all of a sudden they're going to hire Clutch and then all of a sudden Clutch is steering him to another team. So they make that trade and it's a trade Daryl Moore certainly didn't want to make. He was left Houston within a year, but you think like all the ramifications from that trade, right?

Where it basically starts this or, you know, helps to continue this amazing OKC rebuild that they do overnight. Um, it leads to OKC actually being able to flip Chris Paul into something else. It leads to Phoenix being able to reinvent themselves as a contender. And you think if they had taken Halliburton instead of Jalen Smith, I actually think they'd be the favorites in the West right now. They're not the favorites, but, um, for the most part, they've done a really nice job. That trade was good. The Kim, I called him Kim Williams, Kim Johnson, the Kim Johnson pick,

the fact that we all thought he was going to be a bust, he's not. And you just think like, man, what would be cooler than Phoenix in this really goofy fucked up year, them making the finals? So what would need to happen? Well, I think they'd have to get a one or two seed and I think they'd have to end up in a different bracket than the Lakers would be the two things. But I like the shots they get late. I like all the clutch minutes they're getting for reps.

I like their defense. I like how hard they play and the switching that they do. And really the only third in the punch bowl would be DeAndre Ayton. The smart teams just try to get him in a switch 20 feet from the basket. But that really doesn't make him any different than Rudy Gobert. The Suns did that to Rudy Gobert all of Wednesday. But I just think there's a lot of parody in the West this year. And the only way there's not going to be parody is if Davis and LeBron come back a hundred percent and they weigh the SmackDown. But for now we can't see that. We're within, you know, the playing game is May

18th. We're within five weeks of that, five and a half weeks. And this is just kind of one of those seasons. It's like the bubble last year where it seemed inconceivable to a lot of you that Miami could make the finals, and all of a sudden they were in the finals. I think it would be an amazing story, and I do think it's conceivable. It would have been more fun if they beat the Clippers tonight,

and I could have led the podcast with, wow, they beat the Jazz and the Clippers. Here come the Suns. But at the same time, I don't think any NBA team is winning that game tonight. And I still feel like they're a true contender. And if I had to rank the West teams, I'd still have the Lakers won.

And I would have Phoenix and Denver kind of 2A and 2B. And I would have Utah fourth because the thing with Utah is what we saw last night. The Mitchell thing. Mitchell, who's fantastic. But when they get in these big games, there's like this hero side that comes out with Mitchell. And if you look at his five biggest shot attempt games

this season, they lost all five. It's a coincidence? I don't know. But he took like 35 shots last night and he continually tries to get in these mano a mano things against the good teams, against whoever the best player in the other team is. And that's kind of not who they are. Like the great thing about that team is how unselfish everybody is and how great the ball moves. And when they're doing the 2014 Spurs

impersonation, I don't remember anyone in the 2014 Spurs taking 35 shots in an overtime game. That just didn't happen. So I don't know how they solved that one because there's a side of him that a lot of these young guys have where this is the culture we're in now. This is somebody hits a big step back three to tie the game

and then it's on Twitter five seconds later. I don't think that's who this Utah team is. I think they're the 2014 Spurs best case scenario. Not sure Mitchell realizes that. And for that and a few other reasons, I just, I don't see them there for three straight rounds. I think somebody can get them. And I think Phoenix would beat them in a series, absolutely.

So Denver would be the wild card just because of the Gordon trade, because of how well he fit in. I still have questions about their bench. But their top four ranks among anyone else. The Gordon thing's been unbelievable to watch. It's like everything we ever theorized about what it would be like if he was on the right team has just blossomed and come true right away. So that would be my top four.

And the thing with the Suns, as you're watching this unfold, just think like this is 50 years of just the most bizarre twists and turns I think any NBA team has had in the league. Think how long 50 years is. The Knicks, the last time they won was 1973. It seems like 700 years ago. Phoenix hadn't even ever been to a finals yet. And then from 76 to 2010, they're in nine conference finals and they made the finals

twice. But yet nobody would ever be like, oh my God, I just watched this amazing Phoenix Suns documentary. They get no press at all. So I think it'd be really fun if they kept advancing. So that's my Phoenix Suns tangent slash rant. Before we go, two things before we get to Stephanie McMahon. One is that I went on Locker Room today with Joe House and Nathan Hubbard.

And we kind of just rapped about, uh, round one masters. Hadn't been on there before. It's a live audio app that Spotify just bought. We had a lot of fun. It's a lot different than a podcast. It's basically, it almost feels like you're on a speakerphone with two of your buddies just shooting the shit. But, uh, what I liked about it is it's different than a podcast because it's just reactive, it's time sensitive, and then it kind of goes away, at least the thing we did today. I don't think it would have worked as a podcast because by the time you listen to it,

it's already round two of the Masters. But we're going to try to do it again right after round three on Saturday. So download the Locker Room app, sign up, it's free, and you can hear us shooting the shit about round three of the Masters. The only other thing I had for you before we get to Stephanie,

this extra innings rule, I'm back with the Red Sox. I forgave them for the Mookie Betts trade. You can't change what's in your DNA. I'm back. I've watched a lot of baseball already this year. And this extra innings thing happened the other night against Tampa Bay.

And when it's your team and they're actually in it, and it was a huge game and the Red Sox ended up winning on this crazy JD Martinez hit that the right fielder kind of misjudged, but it was tailing away from him. But it was one of those games that if the Red Sox lost, I feel like their season would have gone south. And if they won now, I feel like it's been rejuvenated. It has. But it was so weird to watch a game with this dumb rule. And I don't know where it came from. I don't know why they're doing it. It is like the worst focus group of all time came up with it with advice from Gary Bettman, who was obviously trying to figure out how to have a worse commissioner in sports than himself. So he probably recommended this. I hate it so much.

I don't see any upside for it. I don't really feel like it makes the games that much shorter. It makes the stats incredibly confusing. I'm in this AL Keeper League. I have no idea if you're watching it. We had the Blue Jays reliever Merriweather in tonight against the Angels. And it's like, if he gives up a run, does that count as an earned run? It's adding all these variables that I didn't need. And here's my question. What's wrong with a tie? Why can't we just say after 12 innings that nobody wins, it's a tie. Would that be the, to me, that's not even one 10th as bad as this gimmick rule where guys, the guy who made the last out of the previous inning now starts the next inning on second base. The fuck are we doing? Just have a tie. I'm fine with the Red Sox went 90, 68 and four for the season. Make it so that 12 innings, the last inning, the 12th inning, that's it.

Game's over. Instead, it's like the stupid college college football rule which everybody kind of likes because you know it just adds scoring and more offense and more this doesn't do any of that it just makes everything dumber i hate it i hate it with every ounce of my body it's honestly the dumbest thing i just can't believe it i can't believe they did this i can't believe it. I can't believe they did this. I can't believe it. Who is this for? Do you think this was getting my 13-year-old son to watch more baseball? He's like, oh, cool. They're going to start the 11th inning. The guy's on second base. I think I'm not going to go on TikTok. You guys are morons. God, baseball. Over and over again, you figure out a way to fuck things up and I still love you. I wish I didn't. All right. We're going to bring in

Stephanie McMahon first. We're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember.

Alright, this is years in the making from the mean streets of Greenwich, Stephanie McMahon. I don't know what took you so long to come on. I don't understand. I had to wear a collared shirt for this to impress you. I don't know. That was pretty much it. You just had to get dressed up. I mean, it took you a while to figure it out, but I'm glad you did.

WrestleMania is coming this weekend. What number are we up to? 37. I think what gets lost now that it's been forever and a year is how important in the mid-80s the first WrestleMania was to only child losers like myself

who really for weeks on end just couldn't believe it. All of a sudden it felt like not only did we have this huge event, it was a little cutting edge, it was pay-per-view, but then it was like Hulk was on the cover of Sports Illustrated.

Mr. T and Hulk were on SNL. It just was like, holy shit, wrestling's becoming mainstream. Do you barely remember that or do you remember it a little bit? What do you remember? I remember it a lot. And actually, I talk about it a lot because it was really my father's vision of how to put WWE on the map. What was our Super Bowl? What was our Grammys?

There was no such thing as social media at the time. So how were we going to get people talking about WWE across all water coolers? And he came up with the idea of WrestleMania. Liberace and the Rockettes opened the show. Let's see, Billy Martin was the guest timekeeper. Muhammad Ali was the special guest referee. Mr. T actually competed in the main event, teaming with Hulk Hogan. And let's see, Cindy Lauper accompanied Wendy Richter to the ring as a part of the rock and wrestling connection that we had at that time. It really was. And, you know,

Hulk Hogan appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated. They were on the Letterman show, the Tonight Show. I mean, it really was our way to put WWE on the map. And I'm really grateful that it was successful because my parents mortgaged everything they owned to make WrestleMania one happen. Right. And they had, they had gone bankrupt in the mid seventies. So it was, it was a double risk. She was eight months pregnant with me and she went outside to go get in her car to meet my father at the courthouse to declare bankruptcy.

And there was a boot on her car to meet my father at the courthouse to declare bankruptcy. And there was a boot on her car for an unpaid parking ticket. And she had to get a ride with the tow truck driver. So can you imagine like, there's my dad and he's this crazy entrepreneur, right? And he's pacing outside the courthouse. And he, by the way, is never on time, but he was this day. And then out comes my mom, hugely pregnant, like pouring out of this tow truck to go with them into the courthouse. No pressure at all, right? Yeah. I remember the Cyndi Lauper thing was the first time, because even when Hulk won the title, and I think they were right around the same time. I forget the timeline of what came first,

but when Hulk won the title, it was still like, oh, cool. Thunder Lips, who used to be a bad guy and he's back and now he's the champ. And everyone was kind of tired of Bob Backlund at that point. And it was just cool to have some new blood, but in general, it felt like it was coming on. But then when Cyndi Lauper got involved and was involved in a feud and Lou Albano was in her video and combined with Hulk being in Rocky 3 and it was like, okay, this is not just like Saturday morning wrestling anymore. This feels like something's happened

and all culminated in WrestleMania 1 and then WrestleMania 3, which I still feel like is one of the great events of all time. I agree. I was there. Which we did in our film, in the Andre film. Jason Hare really captured it. It was the Silverdome. It really was there. Which we did in our film, in the Andre film. Jason Hare really captured it. It was the Silverdome. It really was packed.

There were 93,173 people. At the time, it broke the world indoor attendance record for an entertainment event. So as you think about this WrestleMania, now we're 13 months into the pandemic here, and you could really feel it in wrestling. I thought the first couple months, I've talked about this in the pod,

like you just kind of don't realize how important crowds are until they're gone. And I feel like wrestling felt that the most because every entrance, every dead spot during a match when they glance out to the fans, every sort of, oh, what are the fans think of this? How are they going to react to this? Is this person catching on?

Are they getting tired of this person? Are they rooting for this person? They're not supposed to be rooting for there are all these elements and they were just gone. Yeah. Did you feel like what happens to our business? Should we shut down? Like what, what were the thought process going on there? It was never a question of if, but how we were going to continue to produce our programming. We never went off the air. And, um, you know, of course there was a lot we did in really short fashion, especially in terms of medical protocols and everything else. And, um, but my hats go off to our performers in particular. Can you imagine, I mean, our fans are a part of our show. It's, I think WWE is one of the most, you know,

interactive brands that has ever existed. Even back to the days of the Roman Coliseum, right? Where the emperor would, would decide the gladiators fate. It was interactivity, you know, that the fans were a part of it. Should he live? Should he not live? Obviously we've evolved from that. I still feel like Vince's thumbs up, thumbs down though, basically. I don't think we've lost too much of it. Yeah, this is a literal outcome, but, um, but yeah, I mean, we feed off the crowd. Our,

our fans actually dictate what we do because sometimes it's working. Sometimes it's not working. You really have to listen to them. And it's performance art mixed with improv, you know, basically is what our talent do. And without our fans there, everything even hurts worse. Right. I just, I can't imagine what that was like for them for so long.

Well, Pussy could hear them in the ring a lot better, which I'm sure had to change even what they're doing in the ring. The commentators were saying they could hear a pin drop, literally. And it's just so hard. It's so foreign. That's not what we do. We are all about bringing this community together. And that's why we're so excited about WrestleMania

and actually having, you know, 25,000 fans and attendance, which is not, you know, a full capacity crowd, obviously, because we still have to have all of our safety protocols in place. But man, we can't wait to those 25,000 people are going to sound like 100,000 people. I can't wait. Well, sometimes that's what happens because we've seen it in the NBA that there's been some good Knicks crowd so far. And even though it's only like one 10th of the arena, they, they try to make up for it by being super loud, super boisterous. So. Yep. Well, and I have to say, I was at takeover last night, NXT takeover.

And like, like, like we weren't watching it in my house. So there were a couple hundred people there and it felt, I mean, and even, you know, Paul, my husband, Triple H gives a speech, you know, after every show and his speech last night had me in tears. And he talked about performing in front of those hundred. He said, I've never thought I would be bragging about performing in front of 200 people. And he said, but God, it felt good. And Nita Strauss, you know, who's Alice Cooper's guitarist,

and she opened the show playing the national anthem. And she was in tears performing in front of people. I mean, when you are a live event entertainer, there is nothing more important than the crowd. And that was on full display last night. And I can't wait for it again tonight. Well, it certainly makes you, um, makes you appreciate things you didn't know you should be appreciating, right? Like I've been going to events my whole life. I've been going to basketball games since I was four and I got

to a point, the Clippers were 15 minutes from my house and I have Clippers tickets. I'm like, eh, don't want to go. Eh, you know, I've just been to so many things. And now a year later, I I'll go to anything. Once we're back, I'm ready. You name it. I'm going to be there. Cause I really, I really miss it. But it's funny, like with the, with the tiny crowds you're having for this stuff, it's kind of a throwback to the seventies Saturdays, right? What was that? Allentown, Pennsylvania? Yes. It was like a hundred people, the 150. How many people was it? I don't know because I wasn't there at that time, but I've heard the stories.

It was really small. And they would film everything for a couple weeks, but we would have no idea. The internet made that impossible by the mid-90s, I think. Yeah. So who's your most... Well, this is tough because I have to phrase this correctly. So you answer it.

Okay. All right. Um, you guys have always had a meal ticket, right? So like for years, it was Andre and Hogan becomes the meal ticket. Then you try to get ultimate word,

become the meal ticket. It's kind of sort of takes that really, but then Brett Hart kind of steps in. Then it becomes Shawn Michaels. We've gone down the line. Your husband was the meal ticket for a while. The most reliable person, the person you can put in the card. Who is that now for you?

Is it Roman Reigns? I think Roman's certainly one of them, you know, for sure. I think, but you can't discount our women as well. I mean, you've got Sasha Banks and Sasha and Bianca is newer, but they're going to be headlining night one of WrestleMania. That's going to be pretty special and spectacular. I can't wait to see their match. You know, there's just Drew McIntyre's on his way, I think, as well.

You know, Bobby Lashley is starting to really come on the scene. You know, we'll see. Late bloomer Bobby. He's like, he's like in his forties. So I think it's, you know, not just one person. And I think it's part of the diversification of everything, right. Of platforms of content, of all the different ways you can interact and engage with, you know, various influencers and talent with, you know, various influencers and talent.

And, you know, I think there's one thing about WWE is that there's someone for everyone. You know, it's relatability is so important in storytelling, you know, to be able to see yourself in a story or to be able to put yourself in a story. Maya Angelou has this great quote that I love. And this may not be an exact translation, but people will never remember what you said. They'll never remember what you did, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. And if you can make people feel, you know, that's the money. That's the connection. That's what keeps them hooked and keeps them going. And I think, you know, when you have a proliferation of different types of talents, you know, you have those opportunities to engage. Well, the most

interesting wrinkle to all this was Becky Lynch was about to be the biggest star in your company if she wasn't by the time and all of a sudden she's starting a family. Yep. And you'll get her back at some point, right? Oh yeah. Well, I certainly hope so. Maybe this weekend? I've known that information. WrestleMania's usually a time when somebody might come back. Yeah, you never know. You never know, Bill. So you get that call from Becky.

How many kids do you have now? Three? I have three. 14, 12, and 10. You're the ultimate example of a working mom. And you get that call from Becky. You're happy for her, but at the same time, at what point does your mind go to, wait a second, I'm losing my, my number one person right now. What do I do? Um, well, I think it's kind of simultaneous, right? Like, you know, it's reality. So, you know, and this is a physical business, so it's not like she could continue to compete you know because she's pregnant um but of course so incredibly happy for her you know her ancestors

you know wwe superstars right and here they are having having a baby um but it's funny i kept talking to becky all during her pregnancy and then afterwards she was actually pitching somebody jumping her in the maternity ward. Oh my God. I guess we could reenact it. Maternity ward match. Oh yeah. That's coming.

You know, this is the second part of the women's evolution. This is, this is a running joke with my son. Anytime we're in an elevator, he kind of looks at me and he gets that crazy look. And I'm like, and I know what he's going to do. He's like, oh my God, elevator match. And he just like will charge me.

But same kind of thing. With Becky Lynch, so she comes back. This has not happened, right? Has a mom held the WWE woman's title. Oh gosh. I feel like that's probably has not happened. I don't think it has. Cause you had, don't quote me on that, but I don't think so.

You had incredible momentum with that division with her and Ronda Rousey and then Ronda Rousey leaves too. But now, now it feels like it's back, But there was a moment there where it was like, wow, is this going to become bigger than the man? With any stars, right? When, when you're, when you're building your stars and suddenly you lose them, it takes a little while to, to rebuild back up. But now that the women's division is built back up and then they come back,

now the stars are really going to rise. Well, you needed Sasha Banks. And she was somebody who I think was anointed early and now has belatedly become, I think, what you thought maybe she was going to be three years ago, right? I mean, I've always known that Sasha could be right at the top. You know, she just has that it factor. She just shines. Yeah. But, you know,, it's not my decision, but I'm certainly very excited for Sasha to have this woman. I think

during the pandemic, I've actually heard fans credit Bailey and Sasha for really carrying a lot of the pandemic with their storyline. I think they did. I'm so grateful to each of them for doing so. How much of the emphasis on the women's division in the last six, seven years came from it being a really smart, creative opportunity to do that, given how the world has been changing

in the last 20 years and just something you personally felt like the WWE was just falling short with for most of your life. So it's something I had obviously been fighting for for a really long time, not just me, a lot of people. But it took, it really started with the way we started recruiting and training our female stars in the performance center, right? So really a lot of the credit goes to my husband.

He started recruiting elite athletes, both male and female. He would give the women the same amount of match time as the men. He was training them the same as the men. You know, at one point in time, there was a theory in our business that women shouldn't wrestle like the men, that they would have more catfights and that that's what the audience wanted to see. It wasn't intentionally to, you know, hold women down. It was a belief that the audience wanted, that that's what they wanted to see until we prove them wrong. Yeah. And when you started giving women the same opportunity in the same match time, they started

stealing the spotlight and stealing the show to the point where the crowds at NXT started chanting, this is wrestling and women's wrestling. And then you go to, you know, Monday Night Raw, where we had a women's tag match for women competing in a three hour show. And it lasted all of 30 seconds. And unfortunately, that was the norm. And our fans had had enough. And they started a hashtag called give divas a chance that trended worldwide for three days, specifically calling for more character development, better storylines, longer matches, more athleticism. And we responded in the biggest way we could.

And Vince sent a tweet and he said, we hear you keep watching. Hashtag give divas a chance. So then at a strategically a WrestleMania at AT&T stadium in front of 101 000 people we broke our own record i was there from wrestlemania three all right i was there too i was there too and uh you know that that's where we announced the rebranding of the divas division to the women's division we unveiled a new championship belt more akin to the men's but still feminine and announced our women would be called superstars, same as the men. And, you know, then our women have gone on to headline and main event,

all of our programming, including WrestleMania. WrestleMania 35 for MetLife Stadium was a triple prep match with Ronda, Becky, and Charlotte. I was there. Yeah. I mean. I'm always there for this stuff. Well, I'm glad.

Not this year, though. This year I couldn't pull it off. But next year at LA, I'll be there Alright alright Well next year's Dallas and then the year after is LA Oh that's right you moved it Yeah we did we had to Well I'll be in Dallas Last time I was in Dallas

You know I was sitting up close And they do the thing where coming out of Whatever the commercial or the trailer they're going to show you On camera So the guy's like ready. And on my phone, I got the Patriots logo. And my son was like, don't, don't dad, we're going to get killed. I'm like, no, I'm doing it. So then he, they showed me and I put my phone up with the Patriots logo and everybody booed. It was great. I got like real heat. I was fired up's good that's good I could have shown like the Russian flag or something

and gotten less of a less heat than the Patriots logo was the number one thing I could have shown that's what I should have done you know because it was hard

to keep Triple H a heel that night you wrestled a few times you were in there a couple times but only once at WrestleMania right no but I'm saying just in general you dabbled in it but you never You wrestled a few times. You were in there a couple of times. Only once at WrestleMania.

Right. No, but I'm saying just in general, you dabbled in it, but you never, it was always for storylines, but never really something you thought about doing. Well, I, you know, I wouldn't say that I have necessarily the athletic prowess to have been a full-time wrestler, you know? Um, I was able to pull off, you know, like 10 or 11, maybe a dozen matches. Um, but they were very well planned and, uh, you know, I have no problem taking bumps. Like I can get beat up all day. That's no problem. I think it's more of the offense that I have. Right. Making it believable. When you started getting sucked in there and in the storylines

and stuff, like in retrospect, do you, how do you feel about all that? Cause you, you were almost married at one point you had, you were kidnapped. Yes, I was, I was abducted. Um, you know, what a wild ride, what an incredible life I've led, you know, and, and to have been in there with some of the best characters and the best performers of all time, male and female, and various storylines. I mean, that's how I debuted. I was pretty much abducted by the Undertaker in the Ministry of Darkness. Almost married to him in the Dark Wedding. And who am I saved by? Stone Cold Steve Austin.

But ultimately, it's all a coup for my dad to get to Stone Cold Steve Austin as he's revealed as the head of the corporate ministry. It's like, what? And then I wind up, I think I'm marrying, you know, one superstar named Chess and it's all like this, you know, beautiful kind of wedding. And turns out the night before Triple H had Mickey'd my drink and married me in a drive-thru wedding that I didn't know about so during my wedding at the Staples Center out comes Triple H in a in one of those t-shirt tuxedos and he has his leather jacket with a red boutonniere

and he says uh hey Vince I know you said that if anybody who wasn't family interrupted the wedding they'd be fired so I think you need to take a look at this. And he throws to the footage and then, and then he goes, and Vince, it's really not a question of if, but how many times we consummated them. There's me and my wedding dress and my mom,

like my real mom. I'm crying. It's like this whole scene. Were you guys dating yet at that point? No, not at all. Not at all. How bizarre is that? Oh, I'm crying. It's like this whole scene. Were you guys dating yet at that point? No, not at all. Not at all. How bizarre is that? Oh, I know.

Life imitated art. It's, I mean, really, life imitated art. We were married and divorced before we actually started dating. We say we had like a test burn. Have your kids, do you have, out of the three, has any of them done YouTube deep dives on all this stuff? Have been like, wait, what the F is going on here? Not quite yet.

Not quite yet. So I'm sure that's coming, though, because YouTube is huge in my house, particularly for my 10-year-old. Oh, my God. She doesn't know how to look us up yet. Thank God you don't have my son. My son would have already watched every single YouTube video that's ever existed. Let me ask about your dad. So your dad, your dad, your dad's on the run here really since the mid seventies. It's going from city to city, event to event, legendary workaholic, um, a workaholic to

the, to the degree that I'm sure all of you worry about him constantly, especially cause he's older now, but still on the road all the time. And then we have a pandemic and now he's trapped in his place. He continued to travel every week. Even during the pandemic? We never stopped producing television. So every week live, he would fly down to Orlando and produce the shows from the performance center. He never stopped. Wow. Okay.

So that answers my question. Cause I was going to say, I can't imagine Vince being confined in a house waiting out the pandemic. I think he'd go crazy. Yeah. Crazier. Crazier. So he never stopped working, never stopped traveling.

Nope. What are the differences with him? That's actually one of the keys to his success. Right. He never stopped. What are the differences between him at this point in his life versus late 90s Vince? Other than being older. You know, it's funny.

He's grown a lot. I think as a person, a lot of things are still the same, you know, and's funny. He's grown a lot, I think, as a person. A lot of things are still the same, you know, and he still trains at midnight after he's finished, you know, working, if he's done working at that time. Yeah. He, you know, he still just drives forward no matter what. He is totally inappropriate most of the time, you know. He's the best., he's always been an amazing father. And, uh, you know, it's funny cause I call him Vince in business, but dad at

home. And when I'm doing interviews, it's sometimes awkward, you know, to, to transition that way, but it's helpful because there is Vince, my boss, and there is my dad. They are different. But I think he's really himself just a little more seasoned, a little older. He would say he looks a little bit different, which of course he does, but he's still the same Vince. And he had known your husband, obviously, for years and years and years before you started officially dating. Yeah, he always said he loved him first.

Right. And he's even competitive with me. Well, that's the thing. It's such a good match that you married somebody who can actually kind of stand up to Vince because that's like, hey, maybe stand up's not the wrong word, but who's used to him and who's not going to be afraid of him and be able to kind of morph into his world. Do you feel like you could have married any person or did it have to be somebody that would have to pass some invisible test with your dad? So I, you know, it's different because my husband

works for my dad. Right. So, you know, my dad's still the boss, so he still calls the shots no matter what. You know, but I don't think I could have, first of all, I think, you know, I'm, you know, romantic and I think that my husband and I were really meant to be. Right. But I don't think it would have worked with anyone else given my profession, you know, and me traveling and being, you know, so deeply ingrained in our business. It's, you know, it can be all consuming if you want it to be, and it's our family's business. So it is all consuming and I love it. Um, and so does Paul. So it was, um, that's definitely a shared value that we have. How did, how did you end up with the same work ethic? Is

that DNA or is it just like you're watching your dad and you don't know any other way to be? I don't know. I really don't know. It's gotta be DNA. It may be, you know, um, I know I don't like sitting around doing nothing. It aggravates me to not be accomplishing something, but that's probably something, you know, somebody could psychoanalyze me. It's probably not a good thing. But, you know, I do think your parents set the example, or whoever's raising you, whoever you see, you know, in your life, that does set the example. And both my parents have always been so hardworking. And they, you know, they really raised us with, you know, hardworking class values. You have to work for every dollar. You have to earn respect every single day. You have to be the hardest worker in the room.

And especially when you're the child of, you know, you have more opportunities, sure, you know, without question, but it's a, it's a privilege, not a right, you know, to be a part of our business and you, you have to work that much harder to prove yourself. When did you feel like you and Paul were kind of being groomed as to take a bigger load and potentially, when a million years down the road, potentially run this whole thing? Well, it's funny because I'm never in my father's head.

So I think that your role and position just kind of evolved naturally. And Paul going from being, you know, one of the greatest of all time, in my opinion, but to go from being an in-ring performer to then becoming an executive in the company, and now to be sort of a creator in his own right with NXT and to not only recruit, develop and train our future superstars, but to be creating this content and this programming and these shows and these characters that, you know, hopefully will go on to live forever. I think that demonstrated his capability far beyond, you know, what anybody might have

thought possible. So I think the company is going to be in good hands for a long time. I could see it. I remember he came in, we did a podcast together, probably like 2013 when I was with Grantland. And the way he was talking about the industry, he was really smart. And it was like, oh, I get it now. I didn't know how much of it was, he just married you and they were trying to figure out how to give more. People think I married a trophy husband and that's like, not at all. I always think that's so funny when people think that and then they start talking to

Paul and they're blown away because he's so smart and funny and catches them off guard. Yeah. And he definitely, you know, when was the year you launched the network? 2014 or 13 or whatever, somewhere in there. Yeah. Seven years ago. Yeah. And he definitely, you know, when was the year you launched the network? 2014 or 13? Whatever, somewhere in there. Yeah. Seven years ago. Yeah. And we did a lot of stuff on, uh, on Gremlin about it. Cause I thought it was really smart. I thought it was like cutting edge. This is the first time somebody is doing something that a

lot of other people are going to try to do. And what's interesting is then you pivoted again with this Peacock thing, where initially this is going to sound like I'm doing an infomercial for WWE, but initially you create this network, you own your own content, you figure out how to pull all the people, all the subscribers to run through what you're doing. But then now we're in this world where the streaming live content has become so important. It was actually a dumb way to do it because the rights that you could sell to whoever is just worth more than running that network. Plus, you have to update the app. There's all this technology. Yeah.

So you pivoted. We're not a technology company. Right. So when did you know you had to pivot? Well, we really started looking at it before the pandemic. So, you know, I guess I would say about a year, year and a half ago, maybe even two years ago, we really started looking at the space. And, you know, it's funny because my dad has always taught me in business that And you never want to be behind the curve. You want to be slightly ahead. And when you looked at the landscape and you could see these players, you know, starting to really make moves, big time players with a lot of capital that obviously can be invested in technology and infrastructure. And, you know, we're not a technology company, we're a content company. So it was a smart move for us, I agree, at the time to launch

and it was scary. We actually had a linear deal. Because our fans, we were constantly doing research and they had all said they wanted a WWE channel. So we had started working on a linear deal and we had, we were in redline,

but they wanted to, the partner wanted to lock up our rights for 10 years. Oh, Vince doesn't do 10-year deals. Vince does not do 10-year. Well, at least he wouldn't at that time. You know, who knows? The deal could be perfect for 10 years, but certainly not in that case. And he took a step back.

We did more research and we found our audience was five times more likely to watch online video than the norm. And we decided right then and there, we were going to own our own destiny and we were going to go for it. And in eight months, we launched the WWE Network, which is pretty unheard of. Yeah. It's, it's in retrospect, it's funny that you were, like you said, slightly ahead that time, but now it feels like this time too, because, you know, the deal you made with Peacock was lucrative. Absolutely. And we don't have to be competitive in the tech space in that regard, right? It's not about features and functionality and, you know, everything else. It's so hard to be competitive. And now we have the opportunity to just really focus on our

content and how that plays out across all mediums and platforms for our fans. Give me a pick for your next big superstar. Oh, it's so hard because I hate to pick a favorite. I never want any of our talent to feel like, oh, you know, Steph said this person. So, you know, that kind of a thing. That's fair. But still give me give me somebody to watch. Well, you know, I would say just turn to NXT, really. I mean, if you look at TakeOver last night and TakeOver tonight and what's coming, you'll see the future very clearly.

Wrestling. I don't want to say stunts, the bumps. Yeah. They kept kind of going a little crazier and a little crazier and a little crazier in the late nineties. Right. And then a little crazier and then a little crazier and that's kind of kept going. And now I feel like we've plateaued. There's only so high you can go and jump on whoever. Like at some point, it's just like you're going to die

if you're 50 feet up jumping. No, no, that's certainly not the goal. So how do you walk that tightrope of keeping fans thrilled and feeling like they've seen something just now that they've never seen before. But at the same time, you've had this evolution where you guys have done just about everything possible with the wrestling ring.

Well, when we pulled back from the attitude era, you know, and we went back to being TV PG, we actually did pull back a lot of those stunts as well because they really were getting to be a little bit too much. And, you know, the health and safety of our performers is paramount. Without our talent, we don't have anything. And we certainly never want anyone to be hurt. It's supposed to be a

show. It's fun. It's spectacle. So, you know, we did pull a lot of that back. But I think what you'll see is the athleticism has just continued to ramp, you know? So even just the matches themselves and what these talent can do and the flips and the moves and the holds, and it's just, it's at another level and it ratchets up every single year. And it's funny because people even ask me like, Hey, do you think you're going to get back in the ring one day? And I'm like, hell no, I can't hang. I can't hang at that level. You know, it's just, it's going to, it's going to be so obvious to anybody watching. And, and, um, you know, it's just amazing. Our, our talent. And I think in, in every sport, right. When you look at the athleticism, just, just people are taking it to another level

across the board it's a little like what happened in basketball with the three-point shooting where in the last like 12 13 years the three-point shooting just went through the roof and yeah completely transferring the game the same thing with wrestling now you watch the stuff from the 80s which at the, yeah. And you would have the exceptions, right? Like the steamboat Savage match and some of those steps, both of those guys were doing just in general, just tiny little moments compared to right now.

Right. Yeah. Steamboat Savage match seems tame compared to like your average NXT match now. But at the time it was like, Oh my God, what am I watching? This is amazing.

But yeah, it is at the athleticism. Have you thought about, you know, oh my God, what am I watching? This is amazing. But yeah, it is the athleticism. Have you thought about, you know, like how to reduce the workload? I mean, I know you've already done that, but is there some sort of place to land? Yeah. No, but I'm saying when, when things get back to normal, like how much thought and time and energy have you put into the science of like, what's the right workload for these guys? It's something I remember talking to Paul about a couple of years ago too. It's something that we constantly keep an eye on, you know, and what's the balance of also, you know, Vince has this analogy of workhorses, right? And when you have

workhorses that you have to be the one to pull them back because left to their own devices, you know, they'll, they'll run themselves into the ground or what have you. Like AJ Styles. He would, he would go every day. Just go, go, go, go, go. And so, you know, but also these talent, they don't, they don't want to lose their spot in the story. You know, once you finally get there and you're, you're a part of this big story, you know, you never want to lose your spot. So it's constantly a balance of a storyline. You know, Sasha Banks

took about, I think it was six months off, four to six months off. She was in a really bad place mentally. Because it's not just the physical toll, it's the mental toll too. You know, when you're on the road and you're going so hard all the time, it's really hard. And also, I think when you're a star, you know, the world treats you a little bit differently and it can be quite an interesting experience. But what I didn't know that I actually just learned is that Sasha went to Japan to train with a well-known female wrestler over there. Satomura, I believe is her last name. And Sasha trained the whole time, or at least for a good portion of the time

that she was gone and just reconnected with her love of the business. And I think learned to set her own boundaries, which is important. I think it's important for everybody in life to know what their own boundaries are. You know, the NBA has dealt with that too, with the mental health of their players

and just kind of being more cognizant of issues they may be going on. I think social media probably plays a big part of that. With some people, when you're a famous person, go read your replies for an hour and you feel like shit after you're on your hotel room. I'm semi-famous and anytime I read it, I'm depressed. Why did I do that?

Yeah. It's interesting because you don't even think of thinking about that with WWE stars. Oh yeah, they have to take some time off to regroup. It's like, wait a second, you're supposed to be superhuman. Right? Right, but they are human.'re supposed to be superhuman. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Um, speaking of superhuman Vince, how many, how many, how many years, how many years left at this level? Like it's realistic. Like what are the doctors say? What does his doctor say when he goes in for a check-in? Like, Hey, you can't work a hundred hours a week anymore. You're 77. Like what, how many more years does he have doing this? He's only 75. 75. My bad, Vince. Yeah, but I think it's, you know, anybody who tries to tell him he shouldn't do something,

it only makes him want to do it more. I mean, really, that's just the truth of it. And he is going to go as hard as he possibly can for as long as he possibly can. And maybe he's the ultimate workhorse in that regard. Do you see yourself ever leaving the WWE for any reason? Are you there for life? I think I'm here for life.

I have had times in my career where I've reflected and wondered if I should step away or, or just what. Um, but ultimately I'm just always pulled back because I love it so much, you know, and I've wondered like, is it, you know, should I try something different just, just because I've always been in WWE and do I need to, you know, make my own mark or, or do something else or, or step away from my family or what is it? You have all kinds of internal conversations all the time. But when I try that on as the real thing, when I think about it and actually consider it,

that's what I try to do when I'm making decisions. I try to make it real as if I've made that decision. And I feel regret and I feel loss. And those aren't the feelings that I want to have. And I know that WWE is, it's my life. It's been what I have loved since I was a little girl, since I was watching in the stands, you know, never rooting for Hulk Hogan, by the way. Turned out of immediately. Always a heel fan.

Always a heel fan. Really? Yeah. Who was your first favorite one? Oh, Piper. Piper. Definitely. He was just so clever and funny.

And, you know, the heels, they just, I always like the heels the best. Piper was certainly, it felt like he redefined the heel and did some stuff. He redefined a lot of things, I think. Yeah. Do you look back at some of this stuff? We didn't know any better. And I think as a society, we go backwards too much and try to litigate, oh, this is problematic.

That was problematic. It's like, whatever. This is just the way it was. Let's learn from it. The macho man Elizabeth thing is crazy to look back at. I think out of all the ones I'm like this, this really toxic relationship and the fans, basically the crux of it.

Almost every match was like, don't be mean to her. Don't be mean to her. And we're all like on pins and needles. And she becomes a face basically just because she's in this bad relationship. It's bizarre to look back at. But it seemed totally normal in like 1986, right?

It was just like, oh yeah, this is wrestling. This is how it goes. I think if that happened now, people would have like a heart attack. Probably. Well, they would want Elizabeth to stand up and slap the crap out of Randy. Oh yeah.

That probably would have been what they would have wanted. That would have happened the first night. Oh yeah. You know, that probably would have been what they would have that would have happened the first the first night oh yeah you know and she would uh yeah there's a lot of a lot of different um visualizations just went through my mind but um yeah but that was the time and what's funny is when i was growing up i was actually so happy to see a woman out there you know and i was too for different reasons as an only child teenager yeah it was like oh cool it's not just dudes awesome but you know she was always so so vulnerable and so beautiful and she she just felt special you know when she came out and everyone treated her like she was special and

people really cared about her and what happened to her. And when she was worried and worried about Randy and whatever it was, you believed everything she did. You know, she was a very special part of our business, I think. People will not believe this, but you can look this up. When the Saturday Night Maid event and the Friday,

first of all, the love triangle with Macho, Hulk, and Elizabeth, which I think was just a seminal television moment of the 80s. But there was a Friday Night Main event, and I think it was to lead up a WrestleMania III. 33 million people watched on NBC. It was a primetime Friday event. That would be not only the biggest show of 2021,

it would be the biggest show by like 10 million people. Like the Harry and Meghan Markle Oprah interview, which felt like the biggest TV show ever. That was 17 million people. It was twice as many people as the Harry and Meghan Markle. It's just like, it's really hard to explain what a phenomenon it became. When you think about all the competitors that Vince has vanquished, but now you have a new one, AEW, which- That's right. It's smaller, but it's a little grassroots,

but they actually have had their shit together for the most part. They've done some good things. They've broken some stars. My take on all this stuff is always, it's good to have a competitor. It makes you kind of look within, try to figure out, oh shit,

maybe we can't be fat cats or maybe, what's the best thing that's happened from having a competitor for you? Um, I think having a competitor, oh, to your point, it always makes you, you know, it's not that we never had a competitor. We just look at everything as competitive, right? Anything that's competing for eyeballs and attention is a competitor, right? We're all competing against each other. But in terms of a direct, you know, wrestling competitor, I think it just, hopefully, it's going to make you a better company. You know, it's going to make you re-examine everything that you do

and do it to the best of your capability. So I think that it's always a good thing. Do you look at stuff like... Better and stronger. So like you had Dean Ambrose and he goes to AEW and becomes Jon Moxley and kind of comes into his own a little bit more. Do you look at stuff like that and have meetings after

and been like, what do we miss here? Did we do something wrong? Or is it just, was this a circumstance thing? Could we have handled things differently or just move on and you don't think about it? Well, in his particular case, he was, he was leaving anyway. So that, you know, I, and I, I do believe that was a mutual decision, though I wasn't a part of those conversations.

So his case is a little bit different, but you know, of course we always look at, you know, I remember back when it was WCW and the Monday Night Wars. And it was like war of talent. And our talent were getting stripped away and showing up on their show. And, you know, I think it taught us a lot about business. You know, handshake deals don't necessarily matter at the end of the day. You know, you need to have contracts.

You need to do business differently. I think those were some of the key learnings from that time. And then from this time, we'll see where it all shakes out. But yes, we're constantly talking about how we can be better and what we can do better because we always want to be the best company that we can be for our fans, for our shareholders, for our employees, for our talent. We want to be the best company that we can be for our fans, for our shareholders, for our employees, for our talent. You know, that's, we want to be the best. It would seem like your biggest competitor right now is TikTok and Snapchat. Which we're a part of.

Right. But I'm saying like, we're actually the second most popular sports brand on TikTok behind the NBA. Oh, I would have thought you were first. Yeah. I was just thinking like, they were first to the dance. And so we're now at 10.6 million followers and they're at 12. I believe that, you know, that's the last stat I heard. Um, so we're hot on their deals. Cause really the biggest competition is eyeball stealing, especially like with people 15 and under. Yeah. Yeah. That that's the hardest thing. So what's our next move? You know, and how are we going to continue to keep your son hooked or, you know, people his age or younger?

You know, and what is that next? Because it used to be family watching is what brought the next generation, people watching together. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard, I watched with my dad, I watched with my grandmother. I did, you know, this family watching. But now all kids have their own devices, you know, and now you'll also hear gamers, right? And they'll be playing Madden and they'll call themselves football fans, but they've never watched a game on television, but they believe themselves to be a fan. They buy the merch, they do all of these different things.

And, you know, it's just a totally different audience. And you have to make sure that you are where they are and give them what they want. Your video game's like that too. I'm sure you've sucked people in to the actual product just from people who started playing the video game who probably didn't know anybody in the game. Because it's a great game. Yeah. I was thinking as I was nodding to one of your answers that there's this Twitter thread about Vince and I don't know how much of it was apocryphal or not, but it was like quirky things about Vince

and one of them was that he hates when people nod. Is that true? That's true. Yeah. Oh, it is true. Because he feels like it influences the room. Okay. So if someone's talking and someone starts nodding, it's like you're going to influence the room one way or the room. So if someone's talking and someone starts nodding, it's like, you're going to

influence the room one way or the other. You shouldn't influence the room. Let people think what they want to think. So that's true. That's true. What are some other, I mean, that's like a great quirk. Who hates nodding? It's the first person I've ever heard is like anti-nodding, but that totally makes sense. Yeah. He hates sneezing. Hates sneezing. That's also true. Because it's involuntary and he cannot control it. He hates sneezing. So he hates when he sneezes or he hates when anyone sneezes? I think it's really anyone, but especially when it's him.

Are there foods that he hates? Or is he one of those people who only eats like three types of things? Yeah, he really eats so clean. I mean, he's really, he will get into like some junk food. Back in the 80s, he used to love, this is gross,

but this is just nasty. He would eat, I think it's nasty. He would eat Oreos with squeezed cheese. You know that easy cheese that you said come out of the can? Cheese in a can just sounds bad anyway. And he would put that on Oreo cookies and eat like a

bag of it. Unbelievable. That's a crazy quirk. I never told you this Vince story. I went to high school at Brunswick. Oh yeah, that's right. I always forget about that. But Vince always used to go to Portofino's because it was like near,

it was like his restaurant. And a couple of times I would have like basketball practice or something like that. My mom would come and she would take me to a quick lunch. And a couple of times Vince was there and I was just like paralyzed the whole time because it was like part in awe

because it's like a famous person, but also like being completely afraid of Vince because at that point he had kind of emerged as like this, whatever. And it'd be like, oh my God, Vince is eating. And then the other one, which I have told you is Labraton and Stanford, the French place, which was Andre's place. Yeah. That's where he took me. Right. And there were a couple of times we would go there and when you walked in, you could see the bar and they

would be, this bar was like, like four seats maybe. And just this little nondescript bar. And then you go take a right, go to the dining room. And there were a couple of times you walked in and he was sitting at the bar, but he was three times the size of the bar. So it's like this little tiny cute bar, but Andre's filling two thirds of it, just sitting in one stool. And it was, it was honestly like paralyzing. You don't even know. I didn't even go up and ask for an autograph. Cause it was like, he's, he's, he wasn't seven foot four. He was like six, 10, but we thought he was seven four. I was like, I'm afraid to approach him at one point in time. I

mean, he may have just, you know, got his back and everything and everything. But yeah, so you used to see him in there all the time, right? Well, he took me to dinner there. So my first non-family dinner date was with Andre. And I was about 14. And I remember walking into the restaurant and seeing him, similar fashion. And I sit down and he starts laughing. He was like a big laugh. And and I said what is it Andre and he goes everybody in here they think I'm a dirty old man and I was like no they do not and he goes oh yes they do it's really funny could you understand half of the stuff he said? So I could, I had this weird,

Andre and I had this very strange sort of beautiful connection and, you know, I, wrestling itself in our business and my father, even just the stories you're telling, right. It's very polarizing and people either love it, you know, or, or they hate it, you know, and maybe not even for good reasons on either side. And it was the same for me growing up, you know, and sometimes people, you know, hated me just because of who my dad was, or they loved me just because of who my dad was. And that always bothered me, right? So judgment, you know, and that's just life, but it always bothered me. And I saw it happen with Andre, just people judging him him gawking at him staring at him not always in the nicest of ways and I guess I asked him when I was around

seven years old and and I asked him if it bothered him and I don't think anybody had ever asked him that before and he kind of looked at me and it was the beginning of this really beautiful friendship. And I could, I could always understand him, even though he had this very deep, deep voice and the French accent and everything. I could always understand him. And we honestly didn't even need to talk very much. But it was, um, so that was, you know, one of the reasons why he, he took me to dinner was we just had this special friendship and he made me eat everything.

And some of it was just gross. But I had to eat it. I had to try it. I was so full and just not feeling well by the time I left that restaurant. So when you actually were in Storylines and you're traveling like the wrestlers would right and you're doing you just you in whatever the triple h storyline was and you're on the road and you're going from boston to chicago to wherever and you were living the life was that something you were like this is fun i'll do this for six months. Or you're like, holy shit, this might become my life.

I loved it. Every second of it. Because I was always kept away from the in-ring side of our business. So ever since I was about 15, I've interned in our company in some form or fashion. I mean, I modeled merchandise when I was, you know, a little, never, I don't think I ever got paid for it. But then, which was part of why, and my house was actually always used for all the production shoots and everything. So all of that was always happening around me and I loved it.

I was always so fascinated by it. And, but, you know, so I was working in the office and I would work the reception desk and I still have people's numbers memorized. And I was a gopher, you know, in various different departments, but I was never allowed on the road. And Shane was, my brother was, and he was a part of the ring crew and he was, you know, he was earning his stripes, but in a totally different way. And I always wanted to go on the road. I just, I love our business and I love the creative of it. And I'm fascinated by the psychology of it and the storytelling and how it actually works. And if you are, I don't know if

it's just a proclivity or whatever it is, but the live crowd, there is just nothing like it. And it is like a shot of adrenaline every single time to your heart. And that's, it's not because of the adrenaline. To me, it's because of the connection. But there is nothing like the roar of the crowd. You know, there really just isn't. And that's where I always wanted to be. It was actually really hard for me to come off the road. You were a good heel too when you went evil a couple of times, you were like, you thrived on it. Oh,

mostly evil. Yeah. You have to. Well, I love it. I love being a heel because I get to be what everybody thinks I am. Yeah. You know,

everybody assumes I am the, you know, spoiled rich bitch daughter of Vince McMahon. And I just, you know, whatever. And I get to play I just, you know, whatever. And I get to play that role, you know? And not only that though,

because my character has the business smarts too, right? So I'm going to stick it to the performers. I'm going to stick it to our fans, you know, in as many ways as possible. And I'm going to talk down to you while I do it. But it's just fun. That was such like a pivotal WWE point when basically it comes down to Bret Hart punching Vince.

But then Vince realizing like, oh yeah, spit on him then punch him. The famous Montreal Screwjob. But Vince realizing, oh, we should work this into the show. And that leads to one of the best,

I don't know, three-year runs in the history of the company. But then you get sucked into it, the whole thing. Yeah. It's almost like we were the original reality show. Seriously? Yeah. Because that was like before the Osbournes. Oh, yeah. All that stuff. Before the Osbournes, yep. When Vince came, like Oz came out from behind the curtain. It was, and then, wait, he has a family? And oh my God, they're all insane. It's funny because when I was growing up,

Vince was just the guy who announced the Saturday matches. And I had no, I didn't, how was I going to know the backstory? You know, and even when he bought from his father and all that stuff, I still didn't, wasn't until like Tuesday Night Titans where it was becoming clear he was kind of in charge of things, you know? But up to that point, I just thought he was like the announcer. And how did you feel about Tuesday Night Titans? I watched it every week.

What are you talking about? It was some of the greatest television of all time. It was... The thing was, you talked about being early on stuff. He saw the cable TV piece really

early and realized, I'll beat the other promotions. I'll be on cable before they are. But then was able to use USA. And the other place that I was doing it was the NBA. And the NBA was like, here are our games. Yep. And, you know, the opportunity for advertising and, you know, everything else.

I mean, he really is a visionary and has been. And look, he took what was a regional wrestling promotion and made it into this global media empire, if you will, that's still going and still growing and is hopefully set up for success for quite some time. It certainly has had a lot of staying power thus far. Have your kids watched the interviews where he gets mad at the interviewer yet?

Like the Bob Cost costas any of those it won't surprise them but yeah i remember so for for one of those i was in person the armin can tell you one i was in person and it was actually really edited yeah um but we have the full footage yeah you guys tape every you guys tape every interview you do because we had to learn from that experience and and others because we didn, you know, if it's not live, people can chop it up however they want and they tell whatever story they want. You know, so it almost seems like my dad's reacting to some benign question and just going over the top, but that's not at all what happened. Um, but yeah, with Bob Costas, I remember I was watching from home like, Oh my God, please don't hit Bob Costas. He was so mad. Do any of your kids try to, do you have that one kind of semi rambunctious

kind of little bit slightly a-hole kid who tries to test them and see if he can make them mad? So, yeah, they're constant. You know, especially my oldest has a lot of McMahon in her, for sure. And she loves to push buttons in as many ways she possibly can. But I mean, since like birth, she wouldn't sleep. When you would try to change her as an infant, I mean, an infant, she would turn purple. She was so mad and arch her back off of the changing table. I mean, it was like, I was in a full sweat by the time I finished changing my daughter. But, but yeah, you know,

I hope that they all have the best qualities from, from all of us. Right. And that, that tenacity and that drive and that never take no kind of attitude, that's going to get them very far in life. It might be very hard as a parent and, you know, a little more challenging, but I think it's going to really set them up for success. There is something about him. I've been on, I've had a couple of meetings with him. He's, he likes me. So I I'm in good, I'm in good standing with them, but you, I've been on a couple of Zooms with him too and like whatever.

And there's something authoritative about him that I can't fully describe. About which one? My husband or my father? No, Vince. Okay, well, I wasn't sure. Yeah, well, your husband has other stuff because he's gigantic.

You don't want to mess with him. But Vince, there's something about the way he carries himself that you're always hinging on what his reaction is. And I don't really understand how he pulls it off, how he does it. He can just be sitting there in a Zoom screen and his face can be doing nothing. And you're just kind of looking at him like waiting for something. It's really bizarre. The only other person I've ever felt that with was David Stern, weirdly, who is a totally different guy

than Vince. He was a little short, really super smart guy, but he was always calculating, judging, and you ended up just kind of hinging on what his reactions were. It's a weird CEO quality. It is. But I know exactly what you're talking about. I have myself sat there many times looking at him wondering, because he's thinking, you know, and he'll be quiet. And I think when people are quiet, most of the time you get uncomfortable. Like, oh, did I do something wrong or what?

You know, was that good? Was it bad? I don't know. Well, maybe it's the NT nodding thing. Maybe because he doesn't nod. Maybe you're constantly on your heels. All right, before we go, quick predictions for the next two years of WWE. Because you locked down Peacock.

You have Fox. Nick Khan, CA super agent Agent is aboard running stuff. It seems like everything is set, but yet you just said earlier, Vince always tries to be a little bit ahead. It seems like everything's lined up, but I know you guys are probably up to stuff. What are you looking at?

Well, there's a couple of new deals. Okay. They're going to be announced soon. But I think international is going to be announced soon. And, uh, but I think international is going to be for us. So really replicating what's been successful in the States and what we, what we launched in the UK with NXT UK with local performance centers and

talent and content and CPG, and basically creating all of the business models that we have here, but with local talent and key markets. and ultimately, if you think about what that could mean is we really could create our own World Cup, right? With these different countries ultimately competing against one another. And, you know, do you have stars that then ladder up into Iran's smackdown? Do you have, you know, how do those talent then feed through the whole system? And it's sort of recreating what was the regional model, but it's all, you know, hopefully WWE and all over the world. Well, you've had the most interesting results with India with that, right?

Where you're branding local people who potentially one of them could just ascend and become somebody who's here in America? So we just produced a local, well, it was produced in the States because of COVID restrictions, but it was a show specifically in partnership with Sony for the Indian market. And we called it Superstar Spectacle. And we don't have enough of the Indian talent, you know, from our various tryouts that we've done yet to do a show all on their own. And they're also not big name stars yet. So we brought in a lot of our current stars as well. We had a local Bollywood crew because of the technology that we're utilizing in our residency where we have the famous group has brought in nearly a thousand

virtual fans every night. We actually brought in only Indian fans. So it was an Indian only audience and really produced for that local market. So there's lots of opportunities and technology only enables that further. What are the biggest countries you're looking at? India? Is there, be at a top three? Yeah, absolutely. I think India, you know, the Middle East, any English-speaking territory for sure, and Latin America.

Alright. WrestleMania, two parts this weekend. So Saturday, the cliffhanger is the women's match, and then... That's right. And then Sunday. I like how you're doing this, the two-parter. Because honestly, I went to the one in New York. It was like, I think it was like 28 hours. Yeah. It was very long. We slept. I woke up. My contacts were dried to my eyeballs. There were five more hours of matches. Um, so I think the two part

thing is smart because it's hard for the crowd to keep the energy after I would say three, three hours and 10 minutes. It's super hard. It's hard when you're at the event. It's hard even when you're watching at home. It's a long show. So, yeah, I do. I like the two night format as well. And it's added value, you know, added value for our fans. And then, you know, we'll see what we do coming out of the pandemic if it remains two nights or goes to one. But there's no shortage of things to do. That's for sure. All right. This wasn't that bad, right? Your first BS appearance?

No, I loved it. It was like an hour. It was fun. It was great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you too. So you're not going to be in Tampa. So I hope I get to see you in person soon. Yeah, I'm not going to be in Tampa. My son was really mad about it too. It actually caused legitimate strife in my house. But I had to do all this traveling for my daughter for soccer stuff and I couldn't do the WrestleMania

and then it turned into a whole you like her more than me thing, which... Oh, yeah. You know how it goes. Yeah, you know how it goes. I have three of them. Yeah, a lot of ego

juggling with the children. Anyway, it was good to see you. Good luck this weekend. Thank you so much, Phil. That's it for the podcast. Anyway, it was good to see you. Good luck this weekend. Thank you so much, Phil. That's it for the podcast. Coming back Sunday night, talking Masters, NFL, NBA, and WrestleMania reactions.

Looking forward to it. Don't forget to check out Fairway Rolling on Sunday night as well with all the Masters stuff. And enjoy the weekend. Enjoy all the TV. See you on Sunday.