The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Celtics Blow It Up and More Predraft Story Lines With Chris Mannix

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Mannix to discuss the Celtics trading away Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis early in the offseason (0:00). Then, they talk about the Atlanta Hawks’ future, Achilles injuries, and the Kevin Durant trade (0:00). Finally, they discuss Sam Presti, Jake Paul vs. Julio César Chávez Jr., and more (0:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Chris Mannix Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. Get anything delivered on Uber Eats. www.ubereats.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The bill Simmons podcast is presented by state farm. We are also presented by the ringer podcast that work. We can find a new episode of the rewatchables die hard with a vengeance as part of New York city month. It was me and van Lathan and Chris Ryan. It was a lot of fun. A lot of time talking about, uh, this movie trope, especially with John McClain, um, where somebody saves.

A lot of people twice and yet nobody believes in them and they're still disparaged by their bosses and they don't get like a movie made about their life. They don't get to be on a TV show. None of that stuff. It's just, it's like it never happened. John McClane, probably the best example of that. Anyway, we dove into that and a lot of subplots

with the movie as well. We got one more New York City movie coming next Monday, and you can watch all those on Spotify, as video podcasts, you can watch them on the Ring of Movies YouTube channel, however you want them. On this podcast, Chris Mannix and I are gonna break down the funeral of the 2024 Celtics and a bunch of other stuff heading

into the NBA draft on Wednesday night. After the NBA draft, after round one, I am going to be there with J. Kyle Mann and Joe House, and we're going to be reacting. And Joe House, he has got the sixth pick in the draft. I don't know if we're getting drunk house, but we're definitely getting at least buzzed house. We'll see what happens. But we'll be ready to go right after the draft.

Can't wait. One of my favorite days of the year. I don't know why they moved it from Thursday to Wednesday, but it's fine. We adjust. Now we got round two on Thursdays. It'll be fun. Anyway, Chris Mannix next.

We're gonna take a break. We're gonna bring in our friends from Pearl Jam, and then we're off. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more.

Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and the eligibility vary by state. All right. It's been a while. Chris Mannix is here.

We're taping this a little after 4 30 Pacific time in the afternoon. It's kind of waiting for stuff to happen today. We had the drew holiday trade last night and then Chris have sports ingus sent that Lena today. Chris Manix, the 2024 Celtics funeral is here. Um, they lopped off miraculously. $28 million in two trades. They got under the second apron, which doesn't just save them almost

200 million in luxury tax, but also has all these other positive roster benefits. There still might be another trade. Cause I think both of us feel like there might be a Sam Hauser. Something, um, they want to bring back Luke Cornett. They want to potentially bring back Al Horford. So there's some other stuff happening, but did you think it was going to be. This simple for the Celtics to cut that much money when you bring back Al Horford. So there's some other stuff happening, but did you think it was going to be. This simple for the Celtics to cut that much money when you have to take contracts back in trades and somehow Simon's $5 million less than, uh,

than drew holiday. And then the hang is 22 million less than poor Zingas. This was a borderline miracle. I thought they made some great deals and I thought they found the exact right partners to deal with. Like you might think like, Hey, what is Portland the drew holiday for? Like they're not good, but Portland is trying to build this defensive identity. And Portland clearly had no interest in giving Anferty

Simons any kind of money after this season. They did that once, they weren't going to do it again. So really what the Blazers are doing with Holliday is taking the two years left on his deal, getting him on a basically a three-year deal for a guy like that. They can live with that. And look, the Celtics can just take this flyer on Simons, let him shoot 500 threes next year and walk away from him. Maybe he shows them something, maybe he wants to be there, maybe it clicks, but they can just walk away from that.

Atlanta, they're another perfect partner. Like they were looking to do, they didn't really want to just blow the whole thing up and trade away Trey and reboot that whole thing. They didn't, I never got the vibe from them that that was kind of what they were looking for over the last few weeks. You know, Porzingis at his best

looks like a really good fit playing opposite Trey Young. And like contract year, Chris Des Porzingis is gonna ball out. Like the last time we saw contract year-ish Porzingis was in Washington and he put up huge numbers there. I think you're gonna get the very best of Chris S. Porzingis. So I, look, the circumstances suck.

The Celtics are not gonna be good next year. You know, probably be lucky to fight for, I mean, I guess the Eastern Conference, I think it's possible, but they're probably a play-in type of team. But I thought they did really well, given the circumstances, because they found

the two teams out there that needed exactly what they had. Well, I'm going to reach into my zag bag. I have multiple zags for everything you just said. Okay. Um, first of all, I'm not sure the Celtics are going to be that bad next year in this weird Eastern conference. Is it, am I just, is it the Celtics fan side of me just kicking in? I was looking at the roster and I'm like, man, holiday in the, in the

playoffs and in the Knicks areas, I thought like pretty rough. Um, that was a team that I think four years ago, I was talking to my dad about this history because my dad was visiting, we were like four years ago. Holiday against Brunson, holiday guarding towns. You could have thrown holiday on basically any Nick and he would have. Been hugely impactful. And he just wasn't in the next series. I was a little nervous about him going, going forward.

You flip him into Simon's who fills this scoring boy that they clearly need with Tatum, who I think, you know, Portland was pretty good down the stretch last year and he wasn't not a piece of that, you know? So, um, I just, I'm not willing to go play in yet with them. And I don't think they're wired that way. You have a new owner. I don't think he's going to be like, cool, let's go 35 and 47. Like you don't think Jalen Brown is going to be going,

Hey, look at, look at the East. Indiana is now with this Halbert situation. Next new coach. Who knows? Like you go on through and maybe Jalen Brown's like, this is my time now. I can carry us. I don't know. I'm not, I'm, I think all bets are off with the 2025, 26 Celtics, including more trades and them just gutting shit. So, let's dig into that a little bit. I love the lens that Brad Stevens is viewing this through. You might be right. Jalen Brown is probably a lock for an all-NBA team, assuming he meets the criteria next year. I think he's going to be great. Simon's is going to score. Dark White is going to be Dark White. They've got pieces there. But they're not a championship team.

Like we can both get on board. So I think what the Celtics probably look at are saying like, all right, we can, you know, bring the band back, pay the luxury tax penalties, maybe slide under the second apron, who knows, whatever they may do. And are we going to be happy with like this second round playoff exit? Like, is that a victory for them? Like to me, this is all setting up an aggressive summer

in summer of the 2026, when they can lose these repeater tax penalties, they can be under the second apron, maybe even under the first apron, if they make a few deals. I think they're setting themselves up for that 26, 27 season. Well, you can't hit that, you can't hit that point hard enough though,

because it's not just the money. It's all this weird roster shit that comes with being over the second apron and being a repeater. Like it actually really does hurt your roster for multiple years. Kills it. And you have to get under it. So they did. Yeah, they did.

And I, I applaud them for that. I don't care about making the playoffs as a four seed and being feisty against the Knicks in the second round. I don't care about that. I don't think Brad Stevens cares about that either. This to me, all these deals scream, let's just get through next year. Let's take the gap year, and then let's have flexibility. Like we can go into 26-27 with still arguably one of the top five two-man duos in the NBA in Tatum and Brown. Like that can be the core. Derek White is still under contract. He can be part of the core. Like they they're giving themselves room to operate in the summer of 2026 and all they're doing really is sacrificing, you know, whatever next year is going to look like. I mean, look, I did think Porzingis was kind of interesting to move off him, to him to be the first guy, or one of the first guys you move off because he loves it in Boston.

He loves his role in Boston, those playing there, everything about being a Celtic. Like could you have convinced Porzingis next summer to sign for a lesser number? Maybe, maybe to be part of what they were doing there. Maybe you could have convinced them, maybe you can still convince them to do that. If you have some room to operate in the summer. Thank you. How do we know he's not just moving to Atlanta

for nine months and coming back? He might, or he can sign with the Wizards again for the gargantuan amount of cap space they're affording him. For a hundred billion dollars a year. Yeah, exactly. So that was kind of interesting to me that they moved off him as quickly as they did.

But everything else, I get it. There'll be a feisty, fun team next year. I think Simon's going to have some great moments at team. He's going to put up like 40 point games at some point with them. But they're not going to be good. I can't wait to talk about Simon's. So you said something interesting there. You said this allows them to be really aggressive

in the summer of 2026. I don't disagree. What if it allows them to be really aggressive in January or February of 2026, because the hidden piece of this, now they have Niang who's, I think he's expiring after this year, right? And then Simon, same thing. You put those together. I'm at 35 million with those two guys. Right.

I am now in the mix in a bunch of different ways now. Right. What if the Celtics are better than they thought? What if Tatum's rehab is way ahead and they feel like he can come back and mark it? Like, I just think they wanted malleability with the roster and with Drew, which, you know, I, if you do the on paper thing with the Drew Simon's trade, you'd be like, Whoa, Boston got a younger player and an expiring whose arrows still may be pointing up a tiny bit.

Drew's arrow pointed down. That's not why Portland did the deal. I mean, Drew is like, you saw it. Um, and you were, you were covering this else a little bit last year. Like the Drew is like one of the most beloved behind the scenes teammates, um, in Milwaukee, in, in, uh, in Boston, like just, he was in Boston for two years. And I think he goes down him and Horford, I think are going to go down as hall of fame, just everybody in the organization raving about people as people.

If you're in Portland, you have this defensive identity you're building, but more importantly, you're bringing in like an adult, an awesome guy, a role model, a leader, like just everything you're looking for if you're a younger team. And you have to factor that in with the trade. Even if he was slipping a little bit last year, the stuff he brings, like think about Horford, just the last few years of his career, where it's like, I don't know, he's now almost 40 still doing it. Like holiday might be able to be that guy for three, four more years, but it's the off the court stuff that I think.

You know, that's just, you need that shit. Nobody's signing to go play in Portland. So anyway, I really liked that trade for both teams. You mentioned the Simons piece, and obviously the West Coast League pass, I've watched my share of Portland, I have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock. Simons will just go nuts.

You have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock? Me and Rossello, we have most of it. We cornered the market. I respected your Neesmith Island stock. I don't know if I. We have that. We bought it. I don't know if I'm there. We just invested in Kam Whitmore Island. But Simons will just get super hot.

And you look at this, this is why I was talking back before about like, I don't know if the Celtics are gonna be that bad. You've Pritchard and Simons out there, those are like two of the better heat check guards in the league. You have Jalen, who's still a top 20 guy. You might have rebound and you're gonna have a good coach.

You have this philosophy of just gunning up threes. They're going to be way worse defensively. Poor Zyngus played half the year last year and then was a, you know, a corpse in the playoffs because he wasn't healthy. I don't know. Like, I don't know how much worse the Tatum piece is the piece that's the disaster. But if you talk about the rest of it, like they might be all right. They might be an overachiever.

I don't know. I'm prepared for anything. It's the disaster, but if you talk about the rest of it, like they might be all right. They might be an overachiever. I don't know. I'm prepared for anything. I'm prepared for a top five team potentially if everybody stays healthy and everything goes right for them. But again, that doesn't, it doesn't get you anywhere. Like the, what I like to, but the thing is can they be fun though? I think is what matters.

Cause if you're doing basically a gap year and you're resetting it, you can't give the Celtics run where the fans have just watched a really awesome team for eight years in a row. You can't just like, yep, we don't care about this year. Like I still feel like they care a little bit about this year. Right? Yeah. Not to win a title, but just to be entertaining. I think we're looking at it. We're kind of, we kind of, you and I care about two different things. One, well you care more than I do about them being fun next year. Like I don't care.

Fun and malleable are the two words I would use. I want them to have malleable roster and actually not be a disaster. Malleable is fine. I mean, they're not, with Jalen Brown and the talent they have, they're never gonna be a disaster. And the conference that they're in, that gets weaker by literally the day

with the Halliburton injury, like it's gonna be impossible for them not to compete. Although, you know, God knows what the wizards look like. They might be actually be better next year. I just don't, I don't care. Like I think what, I know what Brad's doing is saying like, look, Tatum, put whatever timeline you want on him. But I'm skeptical Tatum comes back at all. Like I don't see the point to it. Like there's no way people say in like eight, nine months, like in what world?

Like why would you drop him back into the lineup post all-star break when you might be in a playoff race? That's just a recipe for disaster. That makes no sense. Like they have their pick in 2026. Like that has to be factored in. Chris, don't ruin this for me. I'm just saying, man.

Like they've got their pick in 2026. Why are you pouring water in this? Let them, I mean, Boston fans can accept a gap year where they stink out the joint. Maybe even wind up with a lottery pick if they're really, if they go the other way and are really bad. And all of a sudden in the summer of 2026, you got Tatum coming back, you've got Brown still there, you've got White still there, you've got the genius of Brad Stevens. And I think he's, he's really good at this job. He was a really good coach.

And he's also a really good general manager. You got that all in play to shake up the roster one more time in the summer of 2026. I, I, I'm fine with that. I don't care if they win 30 games next year. I really don't. I think that's certainly an exercise then Chris Manix. Here's a Celtics team that's going to have Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, Anfernee Simons, Niang.

I'm going to throw in Horford and Cornett. Little, little Kada. You think, hold on, hold on. You think Horford's back? I do. I think he finishes his career in Boston. I think it's hit that point with him. Why, you just got to go? I think the market could be really interesting for Horford.

If he, look, maybe he wants the stags. I don't know. He's made $300 million. I know. I'm with you. But when I, you know, in the last few weeks, whenever I have off season conversations with GMs, like a lot of it's like Al Horford would fit great there.

Like the Knicks get bounced out. Well, Al Horford would fit pretty good in New York. San Antonio sitting down there with Webb and Yama. Wouldn't you love to have a guy like Al Horford in your rotation as well? This is probably like a third of the league, given what Al still has left and what Al's salary demands are going to be, that theoretically would be interested. So you're saying like the mid-level, like the seven million or even higher? Higher maybe. 10, 12, I don't know. What'd he make, 10 last year, two years, 20 was his last contract?

I could see him in play. Yeah, I am deep down, you're triggering me now because I'm deep down, I am a little worried about this because the team I'm worried about is the Lakers. That's like an obvious, obvious Al Horford fit where they could just kind of grab him. I mean, there's some other ones, but I don't know. He won a title in Boston.

He's beloved in Boston. And it's like, you don't, he doesn't have to chase a ring because he won a ring. Right. And if you're talking about difference between they could pay him two and a half million versus seven, whatever it is, like, you know, uproot, I don't know. We'll see. But, um, I don't think the team's going to be, I don't know. Let's go through.

I'm going to read you everybody in the East and you tell me what teams are definitively better than the Celtics next year. Let's say they're no more trades and they keep Hauser. So we would say Cleveland. Yes. Yes. We would say the Knicks. Yes.

Yes. And Orlando. Yes. Love the Orlandoicks. Yes. Yes. And Orlando. Yes. Love the Orlando trade. Yeah. Those three, I think we can both agree. Have better rosters and a chance for regular season success than the Celtics next year.

I would agree. Yeah. Detroit. Yeah. I think I would agree. All right. So there's four. Yeah.

I think I would agree. All right. So there's four. Then you, you, you all of a sudden I'm in Indiana with no Hal Burton, Giannis with no teammates. Miami, I don't even know what they're trying to do. The Hawks might be the biggest threat for the five seed out of anybody. We're listing Toronto. Give me a break.

Philadelphia. I have no idea how many Embiid games I'm getting. Um, I feel like the five seed is, is wide open in the East, which is more of a reflection of how, how gutted the East is. Yeah. And I look at Philly and we'll see what happens on draft night. I think there's a lot of potential moves in play in the next 24 hours for Philadelphia. Um, if Embiid's healthy, they're

better than Boston. Atlanta, if Porzingis can give you- Did you just give me an if Embiid's healthy? What are you doing? I'm giving them better for the doubt here on this one. If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston. Sure. Right. Atlanta, if Porzingis gives you 65 plus games, they're better than Boston. So we're kind of in that same range there where I could see them anywhere from like eight to five. Right. So they're getting Porzingis and Jaylen Johnson back.

I love Jaylen Johnson. I want all the stock on Jaylen Johnson. If you and I were the Atlanta Conciliaries, I would be like, fucking go for it, man. You still have a $25 million trade exception that expires on July 7th. Like go for it. Go get Norman Powell from the Clippers. Like, let's go. Like go get, go get a real player who can play in a playoff series.

Um, you got Jaylen Johnson coming back. So it's almost like you're signing a free agent. Reese's Shea is a year older. You have poor Zingas basically replacing Capella, but you also have a Kong Wu. I like their team. I liked their team last year. I felt like if Jalen Johnson did get hurt last year,

I thought that would have been a really interesting round one team. So- I think Jalen Johnson, Jalen Johnson to me is one of, and amongst NBA people, he's not underrated, but like publicly he's criminally underrated. Like every time I watch that guy play on TV or in person, he is outstanding.

And if he's healthy, he's gonna be an all-star next year. Yeah, I mean, Porzingis, Johnson, Trey, not a ton of defense with that group, but with that $25 million exception, I think going for it is the right play. And I think that's their mindset too. Like the Porzingis trade to me signals that Atlanta is going to try in this conference, which is the right thing to do given what's sitting up at the top.

Well, they also have the 13th pick in the draft that they got from Sacramento. So they still have the possibility of maybe there's one more move where they move backwards and pick up a veteran. I tried to talk myself into Atlanta saying yes to Hauser and the 28th for the number 13th, but I don't think that's enough, but I love Sam Hauser and I actually think that would be a good trade for Atlanta. So maybe consider that one Atlanta. The market is robust right now for Sam Hauser from what I've heard.

I mean, he's starting that four year, 45 million. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's a 40 plus percent three point shooter who's been on a championship team, who's got a very manageable contract. Like there's a lot of teams that could use guys like that. And I don't know if Baylor Shireman is Sam Houser 2.0 or can replicate anything he does,

but I know he's a lot cheaper. And I think that's gonna be the priority for the Celtics with that particular spot in the lineup. I feel like you might get aggregated on Hoopsight now. Manix, Hauser, trademark it robust. That means a hot take though. It feels like a very lukewarm take that the 26 year old elite three point

shooter, maybe can't guard that many guys, but can make a shot at 40% from three. That's a lot of people. Well, and as Priscilla always says, like the sneakiest, wait, haven't you watched Tape? Stop thinking you can challenge him and post up dudes because he's actually like a half decent defender and one on one on an island. He's actually okay. I think the Pistons make a lot of sense for him. And I'm, I'm interested to see what they do because that's, you know, where we talk

about the wide open East, if I'm the Pistons, I'm really looking at, Hey, we might be one move. I would've, I would've kicked the tires hard on Durant. We talked about that the other day on this podcast. Like I just would've, I have Cade who's one of the best 15 guys in the league. I have a young team. Um, I have an identity, like what can I improve that to bias Harris spot and go up a level, um, yeah, from a Celtic standpoint, the Jalen part will be really

fun. Um, the, the Prichard Simons together as a bat, like the Prichard Simons, Derek White. I don't know. I'm in on it. I can't believe they're able to pull out those two trades. I thought Porzingis was going to be impossible. I just thought they were going to have to take a giant contract back because he's making

30. Like they needed, they basically needed the nets to be involved somehow. And then the nets were like, Whoa, Terrence Mann and another pick. We already have four. All right, cool. They did it. Like what are they doing? Yeah, what do you think the Nets are up to here?

Because they're not accruing all these draft picks to just draft guys. Like that's, when I was at the draft lottery, talking to people in Brooklyn and people that talked to Brooklyn, the most deflated team not to move up was the Brooklyn Nets. Because the Brooklyn Nets believe that a top four pick was going to put them in play for one of the bigger names out there.

Obviously, Giannis was at the very top of their list. No idea if Giannis, what's going to happen or how that's going to play out the next few weeks. But all I know is that the Nets acquiring one sixth of Thursday's draft is not so they can draft five guys. Like that's just not, that's not what Sean Marks is looking to do here. I'm very curious to see what the next 24 hours look like for Brooklyn. If they, if they have something else in mind or another deal in mind to, to use these picks for.

Well, we think San Antonio's staying at two with Harper. I think that's locked in. Philly, I'm prepared for literally anything. You could give me any scenario and I would sign up for it. So if you told me Darrell feels like, my model says we should take Ace Bailey, we don't even need to take him at three, he's gonna be there at seven,

we'll trade back with Brooklyn, or trade back to eight, he's still gonna be there at eight and we'll pick up all these other picks and then I'll do weird Darrell stuff with them you can talk me into that you could talk me into anything with Charlotte because I don't think I throw something about Charlotte so Charlotte so this ace Bailey thing is wild like ace Bailey kind of being navigated by an agent that doesn't have a ton of experience, not working out for anybody. I think my theory on this, on Ace Bailey, is that right or wrong, he or his team believe

there's a team out there that he wants to go to that is going to trade up with Charlotte. He's not working out for Philadelphia. There's got to be a reason for that. He's not going to Utah. I don't think he wants to go to Charlotte I think that ace Bailey thinks that there's a team that's gonna leap up get that Charlotte pick and he wants to play there That's my theory on ace Bailey that my team like the Brooklyn nets. Maybe maybe so Charlotte moves back four spots They pick up a bunch of extra assets. Which they need more than that fourth pick, I would argue. Right.

Yeah. Cause especially if, if Edgecombe goes third, which I think is the guy Charlotte wants, um, trying to decode, although what's bullshit, but what's actually real. And it really does seem like that's the guy they want. Um, and maybe they they're like, fuck it. Then we'll move back. although what's bullshit, but what's actually real. And it really does seem like that's the guy they want. And maybe they're like, fuck it, then we'll move back. For Brooklyn, I feel like Ace Bailey's gonna drop to eight and I wouldn't trade up to get him

because I think when you put the stink out like that, we saw it work with Sarr last year. Like Sarr did this to Atlanta. He's like, nope, not even going. If you take me buyer be but where this does work. When you have a pick that high and you have, usually if you're picking that high, your team's probably a mess to begin with. Right.

And it's like, Oh, so who'd you take with this prime lottery pick? We took the guy who literally wouldn't fly to come work out with us who refuses to take our calls and won't send us his medical records until the league mandated that he had to. That's our first pick. High fives everybody. Like nobody wants to do that. So this actually works. I think it's, it's smart, but on the other hand, it's possible that Ace Bailey is just

a train wreck. The stuff with the representation is pretty alarming. Like there's, and there's a lot of stories that have been, I think being passed around and people aren't really talking about them publicly, but there's just, it just seems like a train wreck. It's not like this is being, it's not like this is being orchestrated by like a Bill Duffy or Rich Paul. Yeah, I'm doing the chessboard here. It doesn't feel like chessboard type stuff.

Would you go checkers? What board game would you do? Shoots and ladders. I don't know, like whatever. They're playing shoots and ladders. It just feels very, very, very uneasy. The only thing I can think of though is that somebody's trying to get to four and they like the team that's trying to get to four that goes again. I think if he's at eight, Brooklyn's gonna take him.

All this stuff that's going on with Ace Bailey, he's a shot maker. I don't know if he flames out, he doesn't have the mindset for it or the complete skillset to become a great player, but that guy can get you a bucket. That's why those weird Durant comparisons, I can kind of see it.

I can kind of see shades of it. And if he's sitting there at eight, I think Brooklyn's gonna take him. I also don't think he gets past Washington. I think Washington would take a flyer on a guy like that with a high upside at number six. So I think at four is when this, well, three, it's gonna get interesting

because I don't know what Philadelphia is gonna do either, but I think at four, it gets real interesting with respect to Ace Bailey. If Washington doesn't take them at six, I'm going to be disappointed. I don't know if it's the right pick for them. And it seems like the kind of guy they've, the type of, of, of kind of polarizing polar they've had in the past where it's usually like, oh man, that didn't work out. Um, Brooklyn makes the most sense if that's his end game, but, uh, I think this is a great draft. I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed doing the research for it.

I think it's really unpredictable. You have Cooper at the top. It's so funny. Like he goes and works out for Dallas and, and then the stories are going. Cooper flag. He knocked everyone's socks off. People were blown away. It's like, we can stop doing that with the Cooper flag workouts.

We get it. He blows everyone away. He's amazing. He's fucking, you know, juggling three balls, beating everybody in drills. Like we get it. He's amazing. Um, and then two Harper is locked in, but then we get to three and it's like, I'm prepared for anything.

Trade backs. I didn't, there's three guys. I wouldn't be surprised if they took, I wouldn't be surprised if, if Darrell took ACE. I know you wouldn't either. If he was just like, yeah, ACE has the highest upside. I think he'd be a superstar edge comb. We think he's Dwayne Wade. He just needs to figure out how to finish a layout.

Canipal perfect for the team. We have, we think of beads going to play 70 games. He fits in, he does this, this, and this. It's a, it's an awesome draft. Let's take a quick break and I have some more, uh, some more trade stuff to throw you. This episode is brought to you by Uber eats summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats.

What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. I love chicken parmesan. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum? Yes.

Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. So if you were the Atlanta Hawks,

are you building this around Trey Young? You feel good about that? I don't feel good about it. I don't think that Trey Young can be the number one guy on a championship team. I do think Trey Young as the number one guy in a conference that stinks can be the number one guy on an Eastern Conference Championship team. I think they're in play next year. So I think that's the mindset that Atlanta probably has going into this season because it's not a look, they, they, if they want to blow this

whole thing up, they can do it next summer. You know, Porzingis is coming off the books. Young will have one less year left in his contract. You'll still have Jalen Johnson to build around long term. This is kind of the perfect year to sort of go for it, see what you can get with that $25 million trade exception, see if there's some guy that fits either in the backcourt alongside Trey, four spot, I don't know, wherever they think is the right fit and go for it this year. And if it doesn't work, screw it. Then next year there'll be, there'll be a market for Trey Young next year, somebody's going to want to get him. Like, I mean, nobody wants to sign with Washington. Maybe they take them on.

Like they, they absorb his contract into, into their books. Like there's a lot of things you can do if you're Atlanta beyond this season, like this. No matter what, they're not going to win a title. Like I think we both can agree on that with this group, but after Indiana, I'm not willing to agree on anything. 15 playoff games. I know. Indiana plays with just a, I don't know, if you get guys around Trey Young that are tough

like that, Lee Smith, Siakam, you know, Nemhard, I don't see those guys in Atlanta. I don't see them. Look at their depth try. I don't see a ton of those guys. But I think in this landscape, I mean, you can do it. You can make a run with those guys. I don't, I, I, but I think in this, this landscape, I mean, you can do it. You can make a run with this group, but if you can, great. Maybe you see like, Hey, we just one piece away or, and then we'll add that guy in the off season or, you know, you go into next summer and you blow the whole thing up. You trade Trey Young and you rebuild around a really good player and all star in Jalen Johnson. I think it's all upside for the

Hawks. We see it the same way. I think this is the official Trey Young audition year. What do you got? Here we put a bunch of guys with blank who can protect you on defense. We have a little pick and pop threat now with poor Zingas. We also have a real center who can protect the rim. I don't know what they're going to do with 13th pick and that trade exception, but we assume there's one more really good guy coming and it's like, let's see. We've, we've created the type of team. I think what they have a chance to do is what we watched Indiana do with Halliburton where they built a roster around a guy's specific skillset.

In Trey's case, they can protect them on defense and they are surrounding them with shooters and length, which is kind of what you'd have to do. Um, and Indiana, um, it's, I, I'm, I'm still, you didn't go to game seven to do. I did. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm still reeling from just that whole thing. And then also that, you know, to come that close to winning a title, to have

the first five minutes, the way it went, and then to realize, much like Celtic fans last month, where it's like, not only did we just get knocked out of the playoffs, but next year is now gone too. Like it's, it was just so much, I'm crowd in the NBA. I think Boston's better, I think New York's better, but I think Oklahoma City's right there. Make it argue for somebody else fine, but I think Oklahoma City is right there in that three spot. I've never experienced a crowd that amped up just cut it, go completely silent the way that it did. Everybody in that moment knew exactly what happened based on how we moved, how we responded. I mean, players from both sides, crowd, media, everybody, I've never seen a reaction quite like that.

When you had a crowd amped up to an 11, just going nuts, and then have that happen and everything just go completely silence. It was surreal, man, being there and seeing him go down like that. And then his reaction, banging his hand on the floor and then you watch the replay on the monitor and you could see the calf buckles right away, exactly what it is. That was tough. That was real tough to watch in real time. Yeah, I was thinking about it because we podcasted after that night and I was

thinking after about some stuff I wish I had thought of when we were doing it live, cause I was still like kind of gathering. I was just so incredible of a basketball situation and a life situation. It was hard to wrap your head around. I was thinking about, um, I think it was two, it was my first year I was writing for ESPN pan or second year. So it was maybe 2002 playoffs when Dirk got hurt and everybody was like, he's got to suck it.

He was hurting the playoffs. I think it was against Sacramento and it was so long ago. I can't remember, but he was hurt in Cuban. Didn't want to bring them back in. You want them to play hurt. And his whole thing was like, Dirk's going to be our guy for a long time. It's not worth it to play him in this playoff series. And I remember writing, I think I wrote in my piece, like that's crazy.

If you have a chance for the title, you have to go at it. And as I've gotten older, I feel completely differently about it. Like, you know, obviously he was hurt. Obviously they shot him up so he could play. Right. And then you go out and you tell the, you tell the person, Hey man, you know, be careful, don't you're, you're injured. Just be careful how you do this. But what happens?

You hit a couple threes, the adrenaline's rising, you know, he's going in a timeout and you just kind of forget you're hurt, but he was hurt. And then he made it worse. And now they really screwed up their team. And I don't know, it's just that cube and dirt decision. I was, I was thinking about that, about, do you play them? If you play them, are you more careful? Like, and Haliburton's like, I have no regrets. It was game seven, we had a chance to win the title, but I don't know.

Something still doesn't sit right with me. I agree. It's like that old parable where the guy drowns and he blames God for not saving him. We have a lot of evidence over the last five years that show that these types of calf injuries lead to a catastrophic injury like an Achilles tear, the Durant situation. I think Dame's injury was kind of some of that, him coming back from deep vein thrombosis and being crushed right back into a high pressure, high octane situation. We've got the evidence.

It's out there. You can just point to it and say, this is the kind. Like we've got the evidence, it's out there. You can just point to it and say, this is the kind of stuff that not only can happen, but does happen at a frequently alarming weight rate. And I don't know what you tell, like Rick Harlow, was that all those games and all the pregame stuff? And Rick Harlow, every single pregame was like, we're watching him, we're watching him, we're watching him.

So obviously they're probably telling, and even Halliburton, I think after game five, maybe, like somebody asked him, like, have you been told that there's not a high risk of injuries? Like, no, I've not been told that. Like he knew that something was possible, you know, there. But I don't know how you tell a guy in game seven of the NBA finals, whether or not he made three

of the first five shots that he took, three threes, I don't know how you tell a guy going in, go at 80% like it's impossible to tell a guy Just be yeah, just be careful. Be careful. Be careful. You kind of can't do that because he was careful in game six He wasn't that good unless you're gonna, you know camp him out in the corner and have him be a decoy then This this was always a potential. Maybe that's what they should have done This was always a potential situation. Maybe that's what they should have done. I'm sure they did that. They kind of did that for, what was it?

Game six, for a lot of game six, I think it was, he was kind of hanging on the perimeter, just lingering around. Yeah, maybe they should have gone that route, but like, you're never gonna be able to tell a guy of that caliber, like, hey man, this could happen. Don't push off as hard, don't break to the basket if you see an opening. Like it's too hard to have a guy of that caliber, like, hey, man, this could happen. Don't push off as hard. Don't break to the basket. If you see an opening, like it's, it's too hard to have a guy compartmentalize.

Yeah, I know. I'm still wrapping my head around it. I I've never seen it. But who do you blame? Do you like, like, Yeah, it sounds like I don't blame anybody because it's obviously his choice. He wants to play. It's no different than like we both love boxing and we love UFC and people make

decisions with their bodies and their heads and we watch it over and over again and you can't be like, you dummy, you shouldn't have played. Obviously he wanted to play. It was super risky, but I've never, I mean, to comb that quote, when you think of like the two sliding doors of this guy was on pace to be the hero of that game. And then in at the seven, six minute mark, whenever it was all of a sudden he's done for a year, like I, I've never seen anything like that. And the Tatum thing was horrible when that happened.

I mean, that was one of the more traumatic. We had two of the most traumatic NBA injuries we've ever had. In the span of a month that nobody's been able to explain this Achilles thing. I was texting with doc about it. I was like, nobody had these old, these were old guys injuries. These are injuries like my uncle Bob started playing pickleball and he blew out his Achilles. Like these don't happen to people in their primes.

And that we were saying, I was like, when, when you were playing, I was saying this to doc, like, you know, you just play pickup in the summer, right? That's you weren't doing these like 365 days a year, all this training and practicing euro steps and footwork. And maybe it's too much. Like maybe they really have to reevaluate all the stuff they're doing. Doc was saying, we just played pickup every day on concrete,

100 degree weather, and then our knees went. So in the old days then our knees went. So in the old days, the knees went, and now it feels like it's the below the knees is starting to go. And I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the best guys who still were arrow pointing up for their careers have this injury

that nobody had before recently. Is there, so I've texted a few medical people, team trainers, whatnot for theory. It's all theory at this point, but is there anything to the idea that maybe now more than ever, these guys are just basketball players? Like they're not-

The specialists. Yeah, you grow up, a lot of guys you cover back in the day, they were football players, they were hockey players of guys you cover back in the day, they were football players, they were hockey players, if they grew up in the Northeast, they were playing other sports. Nowadays, it's straight basketball. Cooper Flagg is actually an example.

I spent the better part of a couple of weeks around him. Did he blow you away? Him personally, no. Okay. You know who's, I mean, the greatest, like he was on the cover of the magazine, the greatest Cooper flag supporter is Scal. Like he's out of his mind in support of this guy. He thinks he's like LeBron.

Like this is, you know. He might have to settle down a tad, but. You do, you put together your Mount Rushmore tomorrow, like in day one of the season, Scal's gonna have Cooper flag on the top of that, on that Mount Rushmore. But he's like, to this point, like he grew up, you know, in first grade, second grade,

he was a great football player. You know, this is why they consider him a prodigy. Graded everything, football, played soccer, played baseball, but just stopped after I think second or third grade, whenever it was, and then just focused entirely on basketball. That's what a lot of these guys, Jason Tatum, when he got to a young age, you know,

got with Drew Hanlon when he was young and started working on skills, just this. I wonder if there's anything to the singular focus on the game where you're not kind of, you know, doing other things that might protect your body from these types of injuries. Again, it's all theoretical, but this kind of came up with a couple of training people that I've talked to. But it's worth looking into more If you're the NBA like having having Kobe Terry's Achilles in the back end of his career is one thing having you know an Alpha an MVP candidate like Tatum the star of the postseason like Halliburton like this is something that that they need to look at

Yeah, Kobe who is playing those 48 minute games during that stretch, right? And he's at the end of his career and he pushed it too far and it made sense. It doesn't these, the equipment's too good. The training stuff's too good. The medicines to everything's too good for to have this injury. I don't really fully understand it. And I also don't understand why it's not happening in other sports. Right.

Like it's not happening in tennis. You know, it's not, I think Tiger tore his a kill is in golf, but it's just anyway, that was a, that was quite a tangent. We just did what players. So you're, you're obviously texting a million people and we're all sifting through the same bullshit, not knowing what's real and not real. And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade. Like I thought Drew was going to Dallas or Phoenix. I really did. And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade, like I thought Drew was going

to Dallas or Phoenix, I really did. And I would have bet on Dallas, I would have bet, I thought Dallas was like minus 200 for a Drew home. I thought it was gonna be two pieces. One gets rerouted to Brooklyn or Atlanta, wherever, and they're trade exception. Boston keeps the other piece and Dallas gets Drew. Portland comes and then it's like, oh yeah, they've loved him the whole time.

It's like, really? I didn't hear that once. Is there a player that you're hearing floated around a name that has surprised you as we are now 24 hours away from the draft? Is there somebody who are like, Whoa, that guy. I don't know if it's a, well. New Orleans is very much open for business. Zion, not particularly, but they're a team that is determined to shake things up. Like, could Herb Jones be available in New Orleans? I mean, that's a small name, but I think that's something interesting. Again, I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do here.

Are they, do they just sit on that draft pick and take it? Do they try to package it? Is Paul George in play? I've heard some of that over the last 24 hours or so that they could be looking to- To trade back with Paul George. Yeah. To do something there Yeah, those the Philly stuff is what I've been most looking at I think the Charlotte thing is the next one I think Charlotte is very open for business at number four to move down

And I think there's a team that's going to be in play that tries to move up and and take take that Charlotte spot I'm intrigued by the Quippers who don't seem like they have a lot going on, but also don't seem to be super happy with their roster. Just like what, where's the evidence they're going to be better this year than or this coming year than they were. And I thought they were right there with some of these other teams, but I also think they're going to be a year older next year. Um, I, I'm just, they've been quiet, which makes me suspicious.

And then the team I cannot figure out for the life of me is Miami. Cause I've heard they didn't offer anything for Durant. If you talk to some different like NBA team people, they're like, we heard the Miami thing was like close to being done and something happened. I don't know what to believe anymore. And I don't know what Miami is up to. And, you know, usually they're star hunting right around now and they've been quiet too. And I don't know.

Are they going to zag and go the other way? I don't know. Miami part of it, from what I heard after the deal got done, was, you know, Kalil Wehr was off the table. And really the only thing that was on the table was Wiggins, some contract filler, a little bit of draft capital, nothing at all substantial.

Yeah, what the fuck? That's like nothing. Which means they didn't really want him. But Bill, I don't know who, but besides Houston, who really wanted him this obviously? I think the Clippers, you mentioned them, I think they were interested. They just don't have anything to really offer that Phoenix might be looking for. San Antonio was clear. Did you hear that there was some, I don't know if the hard and tires were kicked? Oh no. No. That wouldn't be. some, I don't know if the hardened tires were kicked.

Oh no, no. That wouldn't be, that would be bad. It didn't work, but I'll put it this way. I don't think Hardin's game seven went over great. You think? I don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the Quippers. So, and badass, I don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the on the Clippers. So and badass, I don't think there's a market for him. But if we were talking about like most shocking name that you could see getting traded in the next week, that isn't actually

shocking. He would be on my list. I just don't know who would be trading for. I mean, there was no market for him last offseason and the Clippers gave him a deal that he never would have gotten anywhere else. Like that was, I never understood that deal at the time. I don't think the Clippers want to pay Norman Powell long-term either. They do not. Had a great year last year, but has he plateaued as a player? Is that going to be a, if they give him money, is that going to be a contract they're trying

to get off of in two years? I think they have that mindset. Just the Durant stuff, like I've been writing Houston since last February, because I knew from being around the Rockets how much E-May liked him and how much Durant respected E-May from the Brooklyn days and USA basketball days and how well the fit worked. Like I went down there in February, March to do something on Amen. And like even then, like Rafael Stone was, you know, on and off the record was like, we're not doing anything. Like we're trying to see what this team looks like in the playoffs. And they got their look. They got the look. Jalen Green's not the guy. Jalen Green is never

going to be the guy. So now they go out and maybe it's not a round peg round hole type of fit in the age of Durant but I believe that Kevin Durant is still capable of being like one of the best scores in the NBA for 65 plus games in a season and I think given what I saw from that team in the playoffs last year yeah that's exactly who they need like especially in the playoffs themselves hundred percent that's what you replace you replace Kevin Durant, healthy Kevin Durant, with, you swap out Jalen Green. They beat Golden State in the first round. Like, I don't know what the ceiling is after that,

but they beat Golden State in the first round. I think the Rockets who are gonna get real organic growth from their young guys next year, starting with Thompson, who I think is an absolute monster waiting to break out, I think they an absolute monster waiting to break out. I think they're now in play to win the Western Conference. If I was looking at the biggest threats to Oklahoma City next year, without knowing exactly what Denver is going to look like, I would say Houston's at the top of that list.

We agree. And I also, what's so interesting about that trade, I wish I had said this Sunday when we talked about it. It feels like they still have a trade left. They were able to keep enough assets to do another move. Like I don't think the Celtics are trading Jaylen and I hope they don't. But if they did trade Jaylen, weirdly Houston is still the best home for him. They'd have to put the Van Vleet thing in it to make it work. But, and I think Tarri Eason would have to be in it, but that with all the

picks they have, there's a move now, little reminiscent, we've seen this in years, like the Oh seven to Oh eight Celtics was the best example of like, you do this one move and then that opens the door for the second move. Makes more sense, right? Do the Ray Allen trade. Now KG trade makes more sense than it did. If it was just going to Now KG trade makes more sense than it did if it was just going to be KG and Paul. I just, I can't count out Jalen and Houston, even though I don't

want Boston to trade Jalen, I don't think they're going to. I don't know that Houston has enough to get boss attention there. Like the Van Vliet contract and what else? Like you want to take on the Sun's picks in 27, 29? I don't know how Jalen's got to be worth more than that. It's basically all the picks and Eason and Van Vleet's contract. You're right. It probably isn't enough, but it's enough for somebody and it keeps them in the Yannis area too in January, February if that goes bad. I thought San Antonio was the most, and I said this a couple of weeks ago, I thought San Antonio was the most interesting team for Jalen if they decided to go that direction.

And still are. Still are. But I think the Spurs maybe just keeping their powder dry in case the Yanis thing just bursts and they can make a play there. But if that's not on the table, they can very easily put together a package that makes a lot of sense for both sides. I to bring it full circle to Boston though, like I like that it sure seems like they're not jettisoning Jalen here. Like that, that I think was a thought, you know,

as they were trying to figure out what to do with this team moving forward, but I liked that they're not dumping this guy because it's hard to get two guys like Tatum and Brown. Like it's hard to get two guys that you know can win together on a championship level. And I liked that they're keeping him intact, keeping him there and presumably gonna keep him as part of a two

or three person core that they're gonna build around in the summer of 2026. I just think that's the right move for them to make. And look, teams were calling about Jalen, several of them calling to see the availability. It was a hot market for him in white. There's no question. No question, but the South Beach were pretty firm

that, you know, yeah, next year may suck for them. You know, it may even be a lottery year, which I don't think would disappoint too many people given that they have their pick. It may be bad, but 2026, we're back. Like, you know, y'all must have forgot with us in the fall of 2026 when Tatum comes back from that injury. That to me is what their mindset is. You know who's not tanking? Joe Mazzullo, who's this absolute psycho.

Oh, isn't this fascinating? I'm glad you brought that up. There's no way. This would be an absolute psychology experiment, watching him intentionally lose games and play lineups that would, there's just no way, I don't see it. That's why I think it's more likely

they win 48 to 50 games than 32 to 35 games, but it may be inescapable that they're they're not That good that there may be a 500 type of team I'm fascinated to see how Joe Missoula handles mediocrity like does he like start plucking his eyebrows like after like a three-game losing streak? No, they're gonna put him on like meds. I think he's gonna have to be sedated. Like when you have little kids and you put them on an airplane and you just have to make sure like that,

will you take this Benadryl? I need to knock you out for a second. I don't think he'll be able to handle it. I mean, he takes losses so hard. We saw that during the last couple of seasons. He took that. He better take a leave of absence. Maybe he just leaves the team in January.

It's like Joe's gonna go learn a next level of Muay Thai in Thailand for the next four months and we'll bring him back in June. Just walking around challenging guys to Muay Thai fights across Europe and Africa. Like I could see that. I could see that. It will be, it'll be interesting to see how he deals with it because this will be new.

Can we say one thing on Jalen Brown? I think it'd be a huge mistake to trade him unless it was like for 200 cents in the dollar. And especially after like what the Red Sox did, not to compare the same situation with Mookie, cause that was different. They just didn't want to pay him and they were fucking assholes. I just, I want to see Brown and Tate them together. And I think Jaylen's like really important in the city. Like he really gives a shit about the right things. And I don't think you can lose guys like that if you don't have to like that.

Nobody expects them to win the title next year. The salaries are going to be nuts, but they're going to be able to reset this whole apron thing and then make another three year run. And I just don't see it. I was actually looking at the okay. See, trying to figure out when they get screwed. Cause this is one of the legacies of this Celtics run. And then you think like, okay, see that, oh, they're so positioned and they are

in a lot of ways, right? They're young and they have draft picks. They have flexibility, but then they really don't. When we get to the 27, 28 season, I was trying to map out if they give chat and Jaylen Williams to, you know, the contract extensions, which would be. Um, five for two 47. Right. And nobody takes less anymore.

Like Chet's like, I want to help the team. I'll do five for 200. Like he's going to take the two 47. So that would kick in in the 26, 27 season and Shays super max really kicks in for the 27, 28 season. All of a sudden he'd be making 65.5 million a year and Chet and JDub would, uh, would be making 46 and 46. So just for those three guys, you're looking at $158 million for three guys. And the second apron for that year would be around two 30.

Yeah. Cap will go up. It'll yeah, those numbers. I was, I was trying to factor in the cap because the cap goes up 10% max every year and the aprons tied to that. So they'd have about 70 million left for the rest of their roster after those three guys. And the point is the NBA has created this league now where even if you do everything correctly, you make all the right trades, all the right draft picks, you just fucking nail every step.

You're still fucked like three years later. And the Celtics are the latest example. We're seeing Denver now that they can't even build around you. I want to talk about that in a second. In the Celtics are the latest example. We're seeing Denver now that they can't even build around. Yeah. I want to talk about that in a second. Um, but I just think when I wish I had said this on Sunday night, when we talk about like, Oh, they're going to own the rest of the decade. It's like, I think we're talking three, four year windows for anybody.

Cause it's too hard after that. Yeah. They're, look, they're more equipped than any team in the last, what, five, six years to have sustained success. I mean, Milwaukee, they didn't have it in part because they went all in to get a guy like Holliday and cost themselves some picks. Then they missed. And they traded Drew assets too.

Yeah. They missed on these picks though. That's a big part of it too. The guys they drafted can't play. Denver, kind of the same thing. Not as far as giving away draft capital, but when the veterans got too expensive for that team, and maybe they should have spent a little more money,

especially on a guy like KCP, their young players were not ready to step in and play. Well, and then they did the Zeek-Nagy extension. They extended Porter to the point that he's untradable, making $40 million a year. I mean, that was insane. It was like a Walmart deal there. That was a bad one. Oklahoma City to me, though, is a little bit different.

And you know this, but the way that the contracts are set up over the next three years helped them navigate the books. And I'm talking about the team options. There are a lot of team options that you look at that those books, Bill. And that, those, that doesn't happen in today's NBA. Hardenstein's got a team option next summer. Um, Isaiah Joe, I think has a team option. He does.

The year after that. Lou Dort. Lou Dort does as well. Another one there. Like you can either let these guys go and shave that money off your books and get underneath one of those aprons, or you can convince someone like Hartenstein to, you know, take a little bit less to stick around and be part of maybe something he likes being a part of. Dort, I think might be different. I think there's going to be a big market for Dort next summer if

he's a free agent. I think he's a great player, but you've got Kacen Wallace looking to step in. And look, even next year, like I did a little, I did a little reporting, Bill, around young Nicola Topic during the finals. Lot of Oklahoma City excitement about Nicola Topic. Lot of guys that have been scrimmaging with him. Kenridge Williams talked to me for a while about him. Dagnoll, big fan of Nicola Topic.

Like it's not an obvious path, but if they can just get these guys to hit, if they can get Topic to become part of their top eight or nine as early as next season, if they can get Kacen Wallace to be good enough to step in and replace Lew Dort down the line, if they can hit on one or two of these next, what are they, seven picks right now in the next four years of the draft, they can just hit on these guys. They got a chance here to do what all those other teams we just mentioned have not done. So I'm a little more optimistic they can do it.

Who's Mundane? Yes, that's another guy that, you know, they have guys, they have guys that, you know, they're not going to step into your top three or four, but they don't need them to do that. They need guys between four and eight to be consistent. I think they've got more potential than any team of the last five, six years to have that. We 100% agree. If any team is gonna pull it off.

Topa Childs, by the way, I'm says on your show, I want all the real estate on Topa Childs. I'm in too. I'll go on Redfin right after, look it up. You get a condo. So, I agree with everything you just said. I'm talking three years from now. Here's the counter. And did you, you didn't go to Indiana, right?

For three and four? I did, yeah. Oh, somehow I didn't see you. Dorton Crusoe won game four and that was the game they needed to win this series. And the problem with all of this is you still need guys like that. So it's like, oh yeah, Wallace will praise Lou Dort. It's like, really? Lou Dort was fucking awesome in that game four.

And so was Caruso. And it's like, and you think about like the Celtics in 24, like drew holiday in the Indiana series. Like some of the stuff he was doing, the poor Zingas, the boost he was, you just lose that and the series can tilt in the wrong way. And I honestly think if Indy wins game four, that series is done in six. I really believe it. I think Indy would have finished the series.

I think there was this moment in time in that second half where they had the series and they just couldn't close it. So we'll see if they can do it. They have to keep hitting on the top of types of like whoever, like they had, they take, like they can keep replenishing that dork Caruso spot. Maybe. What did you think of the Cronkite thing today that I got a lot of texts about that one today.

Cronkite just. He's like, yeah, we basically opened the door for, we might have to The Cronkite thing today that I got a lot of texts about that one today. Cronkite just. He's like, yeah, we basically opened the door for, we might have to trade Yoko if he doesn't want to sign an extension. It was the most needless media story I've ever seen, which makes it thinking makes me think it was intentional. I just don't think you make a mistake like that in a press conference when all of these guys are trained to just measure your words, say things carefully. I don't think it was an accident. I really

don't. I haven't, I've read the quote. I haven't watched the quote and I always want to watch it first just to make sure to understand fully the context. But the right answer for any question about Nikola Jokic is we're building around him forever. We want a statue of him in front of the building. That's it. He's never playing anywhere else. He's our guy.

The word trade should never wind up in the same three sentences, within three sentences of Nikola Jokic. But the way he framed it was like, it made me think, and there's always been this stuff floating around, who knows if it's true, but it made me wonder if they think he wants to be there for the rest of his career or not. The way it was, there was something weird about the way he said it that made me think

they're nervous that if anybody's just gonna be like, I'll see you guys later, I'm gonna go over here now. Who knows, who knows? Who knows with that dude? Um, I don't know. I thought, I just thought it was a notable moment. Sometimes in the NBA, there'll be these little press conference moments or something said in a locker room or just some sort of Ted bit where you go, huh,

that kind of came out of nowhere. What did that mean? So I'm just, I'm noting it. Don't you think that, don't you think that like, that mean. So I'm just, I'm noting it. Don't you think that, don't you think that, like, Jokic to me is more likely to just decide at the end of his next contract that he's not gonna play anymore. Like, I'm just gonna go back to Serbia and race horses

and I've made enough money and I don't wanna train like this anymore. Like that, to me, that's always been like something you should be, people should be wary about with yoga. It's like, everybody says like, he's got the kind of game that could, that's going to age really well and it probably will, but I don't see him at like age 39, like pulling like an RV to sub bonus.

Like I don't see him, I just don't see him playing until the wheels come off. I think he's got a clock in his head for exactly how long he wants to play. But regardless, I've heard this theory that he's really like, this was going around like a year ago. If anyone's likely to just be like, I'll see you guys later. Thanks for everything. It's him. I don't believe it.

That dude's too competitive. And you, you've been to some of these playoff games when he's really locked in. And he's a maniac. I don't think you're going to be like, all right, I'm just going to play in a shitty league now. I think that guy wants to, you know, that what he did against OKC with the supporting cast he had, especially as we saw what happened with this OKC team. Um, pretty, pretty crazy. What else did we have?

Anything else we need to hit before we go? I mean, I want to talk boxing to tell him, but any other NBA storylines you're excited about or no? I think that's... Here's one I want to throw at you. The NBA storyline that might not be applicable now, but could be a year from now, because I think this is the potential biggest free agent that could be out there.

Sam Presti in Oklahoma City. We're going to get two expansion teams probably the next three years. I think the NBA is going to step on the gas with the expansion now that the Lakers sold for $10 billion. You know who's roadblocking them right now? James Dolan. Yeah. He's got a little cabal of anti-expansion owners that he's trying to just, just to,

uh, cause he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to share the media rates. Yeah. But James Dolan doesn't want to share anything and he doesn't, he votes no at every single board of governors meetings. Yes he does. Go back and look at some of these meetings. Like how many of them are 29 to one? Like he sends his consigliere in cause he doesn't really go to vote.

I think he has a couple of people this time though. I don't want expansion. Yeah, I think this expansion thing's a little, a little more complicated than people are giving him credit for including myself. It might be, but it's not enough. Like, well, how many do you need to expand? Is it two thirds that you have to?

I thought it was three fourths, but it's somewhere in there. Either way, I don't think that Dolan has enough to block. As many as that may be out there that quietly don't want it, I think there's a lot that very publicly do that. Well, can you imagine people are like, yeah, I'm in the Dolan block. Dolan's leading the way.

I'm on his side with it. Can you imagine aligning with that? I'm taking the expansion fee anyway. But on the expansion side, let's just assume Vegas and Seattle, everybody believes that's how it's gonna play out Like if you're the new Sonics What's Sam Presti worth to you piece of the fear a piece of the team percent of the team one percent?

Whatever same thing with the Vegas gambler, whatever the hell they're gonna be called Worth the exact same today. I think like I think Seattle's better though, because that's the, we lost this guy to Oklahoma City. Now we brought him back to be our architect. He was 29 when he came here. He's 49 when he's coming back and he's gonna build this team the way, you know, it's prophecy fulfilled, all that stuff. I don't know that Sam is looking to leave Oklahoma,

but he's been there a very long time. And he's not only won them a championship, which is the priority, but he set them up and presumably a Rob Hennigan who would replace him, who hasn't been seen much in the last 10 years, but is his lieutenant there. He's got it set up. So there's a ascension there. And look, I've been saying at the time, and I know you knew it too. Like Sam, when, when Boston was open before Brad Stevens got it, like Sam was interested, Sam was interested in that job.

Um, but the funny thing was Boston really wasn't open. I mean, that was one of the things is like we went from Danny to Brad. They had a Brad coaching situation and a big contract for him. They had Danny ready to, and it just, I, I don't think Presti, did he ever get to throw his hat in the ring? I don't think he did. But externally, nobody, I don't think Presti, did he ever get to throw his hat in the ring? I don't think he did. No, but externally, nobody, I don't think externally people knew it was going to be

that clean at Ascension. I think people on the outside thought there might be, it might be an open job. But I think when it was thought that way, there was some, I think there was interest. Well, background, Presti, Massachusetts, went to Emerson, like dream was to work for the Celtics and just never happened. Still hangs out in New England in the summertime with his family, like Zillow does all that. I'm just saying like, he wouldn't have any reason

to feel bad about leaving Oklahoma city. He helped win them a championship and he built a winner that can be there sustainable for the next three or four years. The chance to do something like build a team from scratch for a guy like Sam Presti, who has built a title contender back in 2012 with the peak of the Durant-hardened Westbrook years and a title winner that may have won multiple championships by the time his quote free agency comes up.

I just think that's something to watch. I think that whatever two teams get the expansion rights, I think he is going to be someone that's on their radar. And I don't think there's any price, probably too high for getting a guy like Sam Presti to run your team. Manix. He'd done it again. It's a great call. He's accomplished his job. He won the action movie. He saved everybody in the burning building. Now, uh, if he leaves, you couldn't be mad about it.

Um, there's also like, if he left, like, I don't know the expansion's going to be a couple of years from now, that's right around the time. Maybe you'd want to get away from this. Okay. See thing, but he had an incredible run. If I'm Seattle, I guess the precedents would be like Pat Riley in Miami 30 years ago. And they brought him in. He got a little taste of the team and the whole thing.

Um, all right. Well, we'll see what happens in the draft. Let's do boxing really quick though. Casual boxing fan Bill is here. Love it. Big fight Bill. Big fight Bill who didn't even know that you were announcing, uh, one of the Paul brothers this weekend in in Iowa, but who's he? It's Jake Paul. Who's he fighting this weekend? He is fighting Julio

Cesar Chavez Jr. who a lifetime ago was the middleweight champion of the world. Has fallen on some hard times as of late. Young Chavez Jr. has had some documented drug and alcohol problems. He actually lost to Anderson Silva in a boxing match, which was not a good look a couple of years ago, but he's got a big name and he's got a decent following and has a lot of Mexicans on the undercard. So this is going to be a interesting arena for Jake Paul on Saturday. Okay. What's our big fight of the summer? What are we

looking forward to? Um, it, Usyk Dubois too is the most interesting right now. Um, Dubois knocked out by Usyk 2023, like almost, it'll be almost to the day of the month when he got knocked out by Usyk and he's back in with him. But Dubois has changed a lot over the last two years. I mean, he has gotten like a heart and confidence transplant. Like he gets with a new trainer and Don Charles, who's a very, very vocal guy and as much about, you know, motivation, kind of Mickey-esque as he is about tactics. And he's helped him put together a run that includes Jarrell Miller, Filip Herkovich, and everybody saw the Anthony Joshua knockout. Like, that was the crowning achievement

and the title-winning win for Dubois. Now he gets another crack at Usyk, who just continues to be an all-time great. Doesn't show any signs of slowing down. But I think, you know, if this fight was made a year, year and a half ago, it wouldn't have interested me at all. The fact that it's happening now after the, the AJ win, I think it's really interesting.

So it'd be like 80,000 fans in Wembley stadium for, for that fight. And I think it's, it's, it's an interesting fight now that Dubois has been on this run. I can't wait because nothing is more fun than throwing a Usyk in a parlay with other sports and he's just the most reliable leg every time. Just keep betting on him until he loses. I'm already, I'm already sowing the positive on Usyk fights. Like it's everything's gravy from this point on, but I'm going to keep throwing them in there.

And he also, Deontay Wilder's back bill on Friday in Kansas places. He is, he has come back and he's looking to make one more run at 39 years old. Ready to go. Here's a good, here's a good question for you that I guarantee your podcast partner, Sergio Mora wouldn't set you up with an alley oop like this. Who has a chance to be boxing's Caitlin Clark? The out of nowhere person that would get everybody excited about the casual fans. Is there anybody?

Cause I've given up on Bacoli. I sold my stock at a loss. That's a good idea. Boxing's Caitlin Clark. Just that the out of nowhere somebody that could kind of train, even somebody who could be like as big as Oscar was or Canelo was in the early years. It's hard to, like I thought Ryan Garcia could have been that guy two years ago. That's out the door.

That stock is done. That stock's gone. That stock is sold. And the problem with being able to predict that is that the amateur ranks are garbage. Like nobody comes out of the Olympics anymore. Like Oscar used that gold medal as a springboard. Even wilder. Oh, wait, you want to get even more recent. Want a bronze medal. Bronze bomber. Use that as a springboard. Men's US Olympians that as a springboard. Like men's US Olympians have not had a good run for decades now.

So I don't know. There's a lot of teenagers I've seen coming up the ranks. Here's one in the heavyweight division. Moses Atalma, I don't know if you've heard that name before, but he's fought a bunch of like B-level guys that has knocked them all out. He has that, he's 20 years old and has a little Mike Tyson vibe to him. A little bit of a, a little bit of a Mike Tyson. He's knocking guys out early, like very early. He's not super big either. He's like six foot three, but he's got this ridiculous hand speed that guys just can't keep up with. He's fighting

in August against Dillion White. And Dillion White used to be a pretty good fighter in the UK, but as long as he's passed his prime, that is going to be another spectacular knockout for Mo Satoma. That's a guy I would watch. I don't know about the Caitlin Clark potential because he's a Brit, but does he have Anthony Joshua potential in terms of popularity? He might. He might.

And if he fights over in the US more, maybe he gets one of those Lennox Lewis type followings that made Lennox a star. That's a good one. Good name. All right, Manix. Good luck in Anaheim. I hope the Celtics don't do any more trades after we just finished this podcast leading with Celtics trades.

I would just, you know, the, the, the Hauser jersey you've got in your house there might be, might be a collector's item. Not even before the draft there. Oh man. Might be, might be a collector's item. Not even before the draft, but at some point this off season could be a collector's item. All right. Thanks, Manix. Good to see you. You got it.

All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Manix. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as always. And don't forget I'm coming right back after round one in the NBA draft on Wednesday night. Be ready for that. Don't forget about Die Hard with a Vengeance.

The rewatchables it's up and I will see you in 24 hours. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star You live with them or visit mdgamlinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York.