The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Cinderella Wizards, AFC East Intrigue, and the 'Rocky IV' Director’s Cut With Joe House, Chris Vernon, Warren Sharp, and Gus Ramsey

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss the Washington Wizards atop the Eastern Conference (3:35). Then Bill and House are joined by Chris Vernon to discuss why Chris thinks the 76ers deserve much of the blame for the current situation with Ben Simmons (25:23). Next Bill talks with Warren Sharp about why there hasn't been a clear "best" NFL team yet this season, the Rams' Monday night loss to the 49ers, the battle for the AFC East between the Bills and the Patriots, and more (54:04). Finally Bill talks to his longtime friend Gus Ramsey about the recently released 'Rocky IV' director's cut [SPOILERS] (1:36:52). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House, Chris Vernon, Warren Sharp, and Gus Ramsey Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, longtime writer with The Atlantic magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, Plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite.

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Also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where we have the Prestige TV pod, which is heated up with Curb Your Enthusiasm and Yellowstone and Succession. We had the final episode of The Morning Show. My least favorite show that I can't stop watching. That will be at some point this weekend and a whole bunch more. The Rewatchables, Wesley Morris and I tackled Focus, the most underrated Will Smith

movie, a movie that kind of re-energizes his career in a lot of ways. And that is relevant because this weekend, King Richard is coming out and I saw it. It's fantastic. I'm going on Sean Fennessey's Big Picture Podcast to talk about it. But man, was that a satisfying movie. He's great in it. And this feels like Will Smith week. So there you go. Coming up on this podcast,

Joe House is going to tell us if the Wizards are for real. Chris Vernon is going to zag about as well as anyone zagged in a while, talking about Daryl Morey and Ben Simmons. Warren Sharpe is going to come on to tell us, do we even have a best NFL team or is it just a bunch of half decent to good teams? And we're going to talk some football stuff with him. And then finally,

my buddy Gus comes on to try to convince me to watch the Rocky four director's cut, which I've refused to do. He's going to give his review. I put that at the end cause there's some spoilers in. And if you still haven't seen the Rocky four Director's Cut. What an action-packed podcast for us, though. One last thing. Music Box, don't forget Thursday, 8 p.m.,

the second of our films, because Woodstock 99 is already on the HBO Max app that premiered this summer. But we have five in a row coming, five Thursdays. And this first one is called Jagged. It's about Alanis Morissette. It's directed by Alison Klayman. We are very proud of this film. Can't wait for you to watch it. So put that on your radar. I know Pats Falcons is Thursday night. The good news is we have DVRs now. You can DVR the Pats game and watch the music box or you could watch the Pats game and either DVR music box

or just go to HBO Max. Either way, you're watching this Atlantis film. I'm just telling you now. You owe it to me. I've been giving you free podcasts since forever. You can't watch five documentaries

in five weeks? Come on. Stop it. All right. Speaking of this a little past 3.30 Pacific time. Joe House is here. He's got a smile on his face. He's wearing a Bullets pullover. Wizards fever is upon us. The best start in 47 years. Not only are you not going to trade Bradley Beal. No.

We're going the other way. We're going to build around Bradley Beal. We got a playoff team here in Washington. Do you believe yet? Are you in? Are you kidding me? Do I believe? Buddy, we're approaching 20% of the season.

We're more than, we're like the 15% of the season. Of course I believe. We're the number one seed in the Eastern conference. And look, I always begin every single season with the same irrational exuberance. I like the Washington team before it ever plays a game. I can talk myself from two and a half years, three years ago. I talked myself into Dwight Howard as a difference maker. You did. That is true.

I said, look, it'll be the best center that John Wall will have ever played with. Think of those words. Wow. Well, you know, it didn't work out for a whole lot of different reasons. But in advance of

this season, the thing that gave me optimism was the array of professional basketball players that tommy shepherd has assembled and i i said uh on our our preview pod on the over under pod with rassilo that if you told me that you could turn John Wall in the fall of 2020 into this array of NBA talent. And I include Aaron Holiday in there. You have to. I include Daniel Gafford in there. If you told me that we could get five guys that are capable of playing NBA caliber basketball for John Wall, I would have been thrilled.

And as things worked out last season, Russell Westbrook, even with all the slander against Westbrook, and it's appropriate, and you and I were pretty vicious over the course of last season, that very weird season with all the COVID stops and starts and Westbrook's injury that wasn't very well disclosed. When he got healthy and he went on his run and he drugged the Wizards into the playoffs by way of that play in game, that was exciting. I loved it.

All those triple doubles in a row, but bro, that was cotton candy. That's you're sitting at the circus and you're consuming over, over indulging on sugar. Cause it's this like, yeah, I'm here and it's listed. I'm going to blow my head off with some sugar. This thing right here is legit. This is team building. There isn't a single guy that's that's 30 years old on this basketball team. The entire team is under age 30. And you have what he brought in was a hundred games worth of playoff experience. These are guys who have chops, who played on good teams that have, you know, experience and shockingly, maybe not shockingly. It's just shocking to me because of how quickly it came together. This is the same page team. And I haven't had the same page team in my life for at least half a decade, maybe longer.

All of these guys are coming from the same place. You have a bunch of guys that were underappreciated or undervalued because of their situations coming together. I'm knocking on wood because health is the single biggest issue. They need to remain healthy. And really, Dinwiddie and Kuzma are crucial linchpins. But it's a magical thing. And Wes Unsell Jr. was a completely unknown factor, unknown quantity. Nobody knew. Now, he definitely put in his leg work 20 some years in the league as an advanced scout. And then as an assistant, a lot of different places. And he clearly learned some lessons from some good franchises and some good coaches

because he's come in with exactly the right touch. These guys listen to them. They believe in him. But, you know, part of that is because these guys arrived with already the very well-developed basketball IQs. This the hoops IQ on this team across the board is among the highest. I'm trying to think of a team that would rival it. Maybe the early 2000s with Gilbert Arenas and Karan Butler and Antoine Jameson for Washington. Those teams, you know, played to a pretty high level IQ-wise. This team is right. Last night's game against the Pelicans was an excellent example.

They were down 19 points in the second quarter. They were taking rush shots. They went into the locker room. The reports about the press conference say Wes Onsell didn't raise his voice. He just showed them a few clips, six or seven different things. We're kind of rushing stuff. And they just took their time

and they just, you know, basket by basket, put themselves back into the game. And then when it was closing time, they closed it down. So I just can't say enough good things about the construction of the team or the coaching. And one thing especially I want to make sure I emphasize, already in 13 games, we are seeing player development, the likes of which I have not seen. talking about Denny Abia, who was supposed to be a steal. The Wizards thought they stole him by getting him in the top 10 of that draft two years ago.

And under Scott Brooks and the rotations, and again, I'll try and be generous. I don't have to say bad things about Scotty Brooks. It was fits and starts nearly the whole time he was here, except for his first season when they won 49 games. But the team identity, the character of the team, the players, it was a constant fits and starts. But last year, there's no way for young players, for rookies, to get any development. And what we've seen already out of Denny, he's a true asset. We haven't even really come to grips with...

Rui Hachimura hasn't played a game yet this season. Thomas Bryant hasn't played a game yet this season. It's a very deep team. Kispert's barely playing. Well, that's fine. That's fine. He's a rookie. No, you're right.

You got some assets. All right, there's a lot to unpack there. Yes. Let's go backwards. The coach, Wes Unseld Jr., son of Wes Unseld, helped you win a title, the only Bullets title

you ever had in your life. And then eventually becomes a pretty terrible coach and GM that tortured you for a few years too many, made deals that you had, you calling my apartment way back when being like,

we just fucking traded Mitch Richmond or Chris Weber for Mitch Richmond. Those kinds of moments. You have that. You have a GM now, Shepard, coming off the, what was it? Unseld? Then it was how many years of Grunfeld? Yeah. 16 years of Grunfeld. 16 years of Grunfeld. There was guys in between Unseld and Grunfeld. You never had anyone who knew what they were doing. So now you have this GM who figures out how to get rid of John Wall

to a Houston team that's panicking. Right? Gives up a pick, but it's worth it. Houston literally can't trade John Wall. He's just going to sit out the season for $40 million. So you figure out how to do that.

Then you get this miracle with Westbrook where it looks like he's shot halfway through the season for 40 million. So you figure out how to do that. Then you get this miracle with Westbrook where it looks like he shot halfway through the season, has this huge comeback boosts his trade value enough that dumb ass Lakers are like, ah, missing piece, big three. And they give away all of their depth to you.

And now worst case there, you just had all these tradable contracts, best case scenario, you just had all these tradable contracts. Best case scenario, you know, you have four good role players that have experience. Turn the pick in Aaron Holiday, who you and I both loved. Just in general, I always liked him on

the Pacers. Good tough guy. Good tough guard. And then they go in on Dinwiddie, who is coming off knee surgery, but they kind of luck out with that too because for whatever reason, the nets don't feel the need to have any Kyrie backup. They could have signed Dinwiddie. They decided not to.

I mean, at some point the luxury tax becomes crazy, but the way this team put was put together, other than the Bertans extension, which is remains inexcusable stealing Gafford at the last trade deadline. It's a lot of like small nifty moves. And then just telling Bill, like we inexcusable. Stealing Gafford at the last trade deadline. It's a lot of small, nifty moves. And then just telling Beal, we're not trading you.

Stop. And Beal's like, good, I don't want to be traded. And then they all say together publicly, hey, we're not trading Bradley Beal. They're like, got a megaphone. Just so you guys know, we're not trading Bradley Beal. And then NBA media and the Twitter universe and people podcasts like mine are like, Hey, what could they get for Bradley Beal? And they're going, we're not sure to Bradley Beal. And they stuck with him. And by the way, he's kind of sucked during this 10 and three thing. Look at his stats. That's the weirdest thing about this. He's not even playing well yet. Yep. It's great. It's wonderful. And part of the thing,

I didn't mean to be fair to, to be, his grandma passed away, so he hasn't played the past three games. And she was a very important person in his life. And, you know, I don't begrudge him trying to hit the reset button with all this set of professionals. He's never played with this much talent in his entire career. Even I think it was the 2016, 2017 season, which was John Wall at his peak and they had Marcin Gortat

and Oubre was sort of up and coming. They had, you know, decent pieces. You had a Morris. You had one of the Morris. Yeah, we had a Morris that got beat up by a Joker. Yes, one of the sophomores brothers. Yes, we had one of them. And, you know, that was the team that

we lost in game seven to the Celtics. We got Olenek. That was the Kelly Olenek game that season. But that was a pretty competent basketball team. That's the team that won 49 games and it all went downhill from there because John Wall got hurt repeatedly and so on and so forth. We don't need to go through it.

Well, the fact that you didn't trade Beal, which is nice, and now he needs to prove that he's an A-list guy. Is he? Well, have I said it out loud? I don't think he is. You've said it out loud, but go do your thing.

You think he's a number two? He's a 1B? I think he's a terrific beta. I think he is. And honestly, I think over the course of this season, and we've seen it over these last couple games, Spencer Dinwiddie is the alpha. And he deserves to be the alpha.

He has the highest basketball IQ of any Washington player that I've encountered. And I think he also has a genuinely high IQ. I think he had a chance to go to Harvard and chose Colorado for the basketball part of it. But like his press conferences are outstanding. And, you know, just his whole like perspective on life. It's clear that he is a deep dude. And that as a as a leader, as a with with leadership, you know, it is funny that, that now he's around the same age as, as a Harold, as Montrez, um, but he's, he's a sort of a

natural leader and he's got that point guard leadership instinct as well. I noticed that in one of the Celtic games where they were still kind of figuring out what kind of team they were when they beat us in overtime. And Dinwiddie just kind of had the ball and was making all the decisions. And it was weird because you just expect most of these teams to work like how the dumb Celtics operate, where it's like, all right, Tatum, take 10 seconds to dribble the ball up, and then we'll set you kind of a half-ass pick and then dribble between your legs and shoot a 25-footer.

That's most teams' offense at the end of games. Dinwiddie was actually trying to create stuff. More importantly, the ball wasn't going to Beal. And I thought that was really interesting because I just assumed Beal had earned that kind of, you know, the biggest piece of chicken at the table, as Chris Rock always jokes. Dad always gets the biggest chicken. I thought Beal was the one who had the biggest plate, but Dinwiddie's actually like, no, no, no, I got this.

And you think, like, what'd you pay for him? It was a relatively reasonable contract, right? It was less than 20? Well, it came in as part of the Westbrook deal, like the contract, all of the contracts together, Dinwiddie was a piece, and I don't remember how the math all worked out. Because Westbrook was in that 40-some million class.

Right. Relatively cheap. Again, unknown quantity. Guy hasn't played any competitive basketball in over a year. And coming off knee surgery. And it's a little goofy. He definitely has moments where it seemed like he thought he was a bigger star than he was. Sure.

So you combine that with Harrow, who I think has had some mixed experiences over the years on teams where it seems like he wears out his welcome. Never seems like he fit in with the Lakers. I think the Clippers were dying to get rid of him by the end of the bubble season. But it seems like from a personality standpoint, everyone's fine. I wonder, is this the team you have in February? Because you have the Kispert piece, who I think has trade value. I don't think you trade Denny. But then you have Rui Hachimura, too, who I think could also have value. And could you flip both of those guys with something

else and actually get somebody who could maybe even play crunch time? You didn't even mention two other guys. Thomas Bryant should have some value if he can come back and demonstrate to the league that he has that same bounce as

what he had before he got injured, that same relentless energy around the rim. His scoring instincts are still there. He rim. Yeah. And his scoring instincts are, are, are still there. He's a, he's an asset and Bertons notwithstanding the money is an attractive asset to a team that,

that knows that they're going to play him for nine minutes and try and get, did you just say notwithstanding the money? Well, look, I mean, you're like that. If you're a girl,

notwithstanding the money? Well, look, I mean, you're like that. If you're a contender. Notwithstanding the cold sore. If it's February and you feel like you're a shooter away and you're going to go away with Bertons because he hasn't made a shot in two years. He's, he's, he's, he's, I will tell you. Oh, my bad.

He's up to 33% from three this year. I didn't realize he was on a hot streak. And he's hurt right now. But I, I think right now. But I think that Wes Armstrong Jr. understands the right role for him. It's a low minutes role.

It's a cheerleader role. It's a low minutes role. I will tell you that much. I love that you're trying to voice Bertons. I mean, look, he has value because his track record was a guy who could come off the bench and make a bunch of buckets. And one out of every five games, he does it. Yeah, you better get his head right because you actually need him as a shooter.

For the record, I always kind of liked Kuzma. I thought on the Lakers, he was just a horrible fit and it was hard to separate the fit from the player, but I just always thought he and LeBron played the exact same position. That's the problem. He's a stretch four, kind of tweener three, four, and it's like

now when he's out there with LeBron, they don't make sense together. He was a young kid in LA also, which clearly some of the stuff he did rubbed LeBron the wrong way. And once he got on the wrong side of LeBron, that was kind of it. But I will tell you,

he's an absolute revelation. I had no idea what a talented rebounder he is. He is strong as bull. He is one bad mother effer about going and grabbing the basketball. He's averaging over nine rebounds a game. Wow. Good defender too. Good defender. Will get in your chest. This grabbing the basketball. He's averaging over nine rebounds a game. Wow. Like almost 15 points.

Good defender. Yeah. Get in your chest. This is the thing. This team defensively. And this is what, what Unsell deserves credit for, you know,

the, the, the previous three seasons, they were like between 25 and 30 ranked in the league in, in terms of defensive efficiency and all those metrics. And they're in the top five right now. And that's the single biggest transformative kind of thing. Seeing this team defend three pointers,

seeing KCP rushing out at shooters, seeing the effort, it's a group effort and really Trez deserves a lot of credit. That dude plays hard as a mug. And it's a good situation for him. It's a good situation for him. It's a great situation for him. He's a little bit of a novelty act. I'll be interested in a playoff series.

I think you can play him off the floor. But the energy he brings, especially during the regular season. Good in the East. Good player for the East. Not a ton of guys that fit his. In the West, I could see that common theme of he can't go up, but he can't play against certain teams. In the East, I think he can play. It's funny.

If you look at the East, and I know it's early, and that there's a decent chance that us, you leading my podcast with the Wizards, might be the highlight of the Wizards season. It's in play. That's a possibility. It's possible. But I think Brooklyn's going to get the one seed unless Durant gets hurt.

He's just too talented. And once Harden gets going, I just assume they're probably the safest bet. I kind of believe in Washington as the top four seed from what I've seen. Wow. I kind of believe in Chicago as a top four seed from what I've seen. Wow. I kind of believe in Chicago as a top four seed from what I've seen. And I would say Miami would be the other one. And then after that, you start talking about. You're bumping out Philly and Milwaukee.

Neither one of those is top four seed. If you put Miami, Washington, and Chicago. Yeah, you're right. I got to get Milwaukee in there. My bad. Top five seed. I amend. Top five seed. Top six. I mean, I'll take top six. So we don't to get Milwaukee in there. My bad. Top five seed. I am in. Top five seed.

Top six. I mean, I'll take top six. So we don't have to play in the play-in. That's a great outcome. The thing is, Milwaukee already has eight losses. And it looks like they're kind of having that. I'm not worried yet, but it does look like they're kind of having that year from hell post-championship season. Yeah, they don't get any of their guys.

No other guys are playing. Yeah. And every time they play, there's a big bullseye on their back. You're right. Top five. I do believe in the Bulls. I think the Lonzo Caruso combo, that's a real thing. Those guys defensively and chemistry, teamwork.

We were so skeptical. We were dismissive before the over-under pod. And we got to give credit to Billy Donovan. I think he's in the coach of the year running. Yeah, I was skeptical of the defense. I didn't think that they would be able to guard people. And then what's weird is they lose Williams, who people thought was going to be their best defensive swing.

But then you watch Caruso. I loved Lonzo last summer for the Celtics. And I had my fingers crossed that there was going to be some sort of Marcus Smart Lonzo. But it seems like that was called in, that he was going to Chicago probably a year ago. You mean called in as in tampered? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. I mean, there's an investigation. There's an investigation right now. I do like their five. And it's weird. Vucevic is kind of the most, not sure if that one's going to come through a piece of the five, just because how he was used in Orlando and the usage rate he had versus

like now as this kind of pick and pop banger, um, they'll figure it out. I'm not worried about it, but the other four, the way they play together is the, the fact that the Rosenozan, Levine, and Caruso and Lonzo

just all have chemistry already is pretty crazy considering they all weren't on the same team. But I just like watching them. It's the same way I feel about Washington. Yeah. It's crazy chemistry. Now, I mean, you know,

a couple of the... Three of these guys played together before, so... Yeah. So you think... I don't know. I think they're a safer bet going down the list Cavs just lost Mobley two weeks Knicks

Sixers with this Embiid who knows with his health and then the Simmons piece of it Charlotte I think their defense is just going to be the most fun team in the East but probably have the most frustrating losses Toronto you're just going down the line I guess the one that...

I wouldn't dismiss Toronto, and I think the Sixers are going to be in the mix as well. But the East is super competitive this year. I'm dismissing Toronto. Why? Atlanta is the wild card to me. I don't know what to make of them. They're 6-9.

I think it's a... Some people think it's Trey and the rules. I think it's a too many guys thing. It's one of those teams where you look and you're like, who's happy on this team? Who's getting the amount of minutes that they would want it? And you go through and it's like, oh, that guy's unhappy. That guy's unhappy.

Yeah, he's unhappy. It's a shame that Simmons and the Sixers are in the East because I think the two most interesting trade potential partners would be Toronto and Atlanta. Both of those teams could use Ben Simmons and both of those teams have really interesting young assets that would be difference makers

for the Sixers. But there ain't no way that Daryl Morey is trading Ben Simmons to rivals in the East. I wonder if it's as simple as it's just Houston and it's Christian Wood and maybe a contract and they call it a day. And that's the best they can do.

It's a fair trade. Christian Wood is really effing good. And I would like to see Christian Wood on a good team. Yeah. That insurance policy against Embiid, that makes a ton of sense to me. Yeah. Well,

we're going to talk about Ben Simmons in a second with our guy, Verno. We're going to take an argument that we had on text and we're just going to bring it to the podcast. That is up next. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl,

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from the mismatch from Grizzlies pregame and halftime shows. It always cracks me up to see you in a suit tie when I'm sitting in my underwear watching basketball. I feel like I'm walking into a sneak attack. You're not. You're not at all.

You know, it's not going to be a sneak attack. It's a full-on frontal attack. Yeah. A frontal attack. You know where we're coming from on it. It's just unfair that it's two-on-one. That's all. But you're the man for it.

You're up to it. I know you are. Yeah, where's my tag team partner? Who would it be? Who would your tag team partner even be? Jeez, Luis. I don't know. Kevin would turn on me.

No, Tony Allen. You have a tag team partner. Tony Allen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd bring Tony to the party. That's for sure. Tony would kick our ass, too. Yeah, I'm afraid of Tony Allen.

He's a tough dude. He was one of those guys when he played. There's NBA players who talk the talk and they're the ones that walk the walk and he's the one where it's like no no don't actually

go there with Tony like Stackhouse was like that too it's weird because I was thinking about this the other day the league is actually going back that way and I was thinking with as physical as it's gotten this year is this going to open the door to where people

are actually going to find value in defenders again, because defenders can actually defend because those guys, it was like, they just, they turned them into dinosaurs, uh, so quickly with the pace and space and really not letting you put your hands on anybody that maybe, maybe, maybe the next group of guys, you know, the guys that can really defend, they're actually going to be able to find a spot in the NBA. I don't know.

I wonder if this could save America's smarts career. You would tell him to be on the phone with the Denver Nuggets with that game circled, was it November the 28th, the 29th? Oh, my goodness. Tell him to audition. They need one more tough guy. They can use one more tough guy on the Nuggets for that game coming up against who is it? Miami.

And especially with Porter Jr. injured. They're down one really tough guy. I was thinking for that game, it would be funny if they, remember in Slapshot for the final game when that team signed all the goons for the one game. It was like, here's Ogie Oglethorpe. If Denver did the version of that, they just brought it like Kendrick Perkins is back and he's angry. You think that's why they gave my guy Bull Bull a little clock last night? I mean, maybe they did.

At the least, he's got mega reach. Yeah. Verno, we brought you on because we had a text thread where we were arguing about Ben Simmons like we always do. And you come in hot on the Daryl Morey piece of this, and I respect it. I love it. It's a great zag.

As you know, I appreciate and treasure the zags as much as anyone with a podcast, not that I read anymore, Calm, whatever. The art of the zag, it's really hard to pull off. You really have to buy into it and believe it. And there has to be some substance behind it. And you made a great case. So let's talk it out. Do your zag on Daryl Morey. Well, yeah. So here's the thing. It's not really that much of a zag. I just feel like, look, I'm going up against the Daryl Morey fan club in that text thread. You guys, you guys, you guys are united in this. I think my only thought on the whole Ben Simmons fiasco is that both sides are at fault here.

That you can't go and try to trade a guy, tell a guy that he is being traded, and then to the point where he's house shopping in Houston. And this is literally the first thing you've done. The first thing you've done when you got the job. So he knows right away, all right, this new guy, he doesn't want any part of me. He doesn't want me here. And then you play out the season. You got the best record. It all goes wrong when it comes down to the end. You don't really obviously build some kind of relationship with the guy all along the while for six months to 12 months, all anybody's talking about is Ben Simmons trades

or who could Ben Simmons go to or when is Daryl going to make the big Ben Simmons move. And so the guy's dangling out there for the entire year, and then it gets to the playoffs. He has his debacle in the playoffs. Really, everybody laid it on Ben whether that was right or not everybody laid it on him even though Doc Rivers teams have wildly underperformed over and over and over again in the playoffs it's all Ben Simmons fault and so then Joel Embiid says what he says. Doc Rivers says what he says. And then Ben Simmons is like, you know what? I don't want to go through a whole

other year of this. I don't want to live this life anymore. You don't want me here. I don't want to be here. Let's go our separate ways. Let's go. And then you get the, well, he's not trading him unless he could get Brad Beal. He's not trading him unless he can get Damian Lillard. He's not trading him. And so everybody seemingly knows what Daryl Morey thinks all the time. All the time, it is what Daryl Morey thinks. And all the while, finally, Ben Simmons said, F you. And that, to me, it's's not the way they've handled it.

It's obviously not the right way. I would never defend the way he and his management team have played this. On the other hand, like, I think Daryl Morey should have traded him a long time ago. And I think he's got too big of an ego. Now this is all ego, both sides. And I think he's got too big of an ego to move him for what he could be moved for now. Because in the end, once upon a time, he was really close possibly to getting James Harden,

at least close enough that they told Ben. And so now fast forward all this time and he's going around and the deals get worse and the deals get worse and the deals get worse because of course they get worse. Now Simmons is playing it the way he's playing it, not helping his stock at all. And you're in a spot where you say, all right, well, if it takes four years, it takes four years. I don't see a scenario on which the price of doing business to get Ben Simmons is going up. But I also think there's probably a level of pride where it's like, well, I can't, I can't, I McCollum and Robert Covington and some picks deal at this point. Not when we've been talking about James Harden and Damian Lillard and Brad Beal.

And I've said we're only going to trade him for a difference maker. And I don't know. I don't see how he all of a sudden ends up with some kind of a great deal. I think he should have traded him in you know, in the offseason, at the draft, before free agency, whenever. Because at this point, I don't see how. I, you know, both sides have been screwed up in this deal. And I don't think just Daryl Morey throwing double birds to clutch, which I feel like everybody is so happy that he stood up to clutch. He stood up to player empowerment.

And so he threw those double birds and good on Daryl. I don't think it served him well in terms of getting a return at this point. So I don't think the way the Sixers have handled this should be celebrated. I think this is not good for Ben. It's not good for the Sixers, and it's not good for the league. Alright, solid case, House.

I thought he made some good points. The fundamental disagreement I have is everything you just laid out insinuates that there was a deal they could have taken in June, July, or August that would have made sense for them. And I have not heard of one deal that comes even close to the value of what Simmons had, who was, until the playoffs last year, a top 22, top 23 guy, arguably the best defensive

player in the league under a long-term contract, which makes him valuable. And when he played with Embiid, they were really good defensively. And I just, it's not, I'm against the three dimes for a quarter trade, just in general. I don't know what the trade was.

So if you were telling me, hey man, because there were rumors that they might have been able to get Darius Garland and Kevin Love for him. Or maybe they could have gotten Malcolm Brogdon and Karis LeVert and some kind of package like that.

But I'm not doing that. I'm out on that. I'm not doing that. If you're talking about Darius Garland and Kevin Love, if that was really on the table, and I don't know, I'm not reporting that, don't aggregate me. But that was a buzz that Cleveland was making a play for him, and maybe that was it.

If that was really on the table, now I have real regrets if I'm feeling it. Because I think Garland, he's really emerged as, I think, one of the leap guys this year. And plus, you would have gotten Love back in there with the contract, tradable as an expiring. Well, and there's a lot of conflicting. Let's go back. There's a lot of conflicting reports on the Houston stuff, right?

And there were reports after that. You're talking about the Harden trade? Yeah, that he regretted it, that it was always, look, go find a better deal. I'll give you Ben Simmons, but I'm not adding in Tyrese Maxey or Dybal. They had stuff in there. No, I think that Tybal was in there and some picks. It wasn't just Simmons for Harden. But when Brooklyn came over the top, then it was like, oh, no. And so now it's like to me, in retrospect, you sit back and you go,

this is what the value was, or at least we had talked about this very seriously. And I can't be doing Malcolm Brogdon for Karis LeVert deal. But the truth is, Ben Simmons' value was a lot higher then than it is now. The Ben Simmons' value has gone down precipitously and continues to go down. Who is trading for him? Really? Let's talk about that one second.

I have a question for House. House, I think Darryl's biggest mistake and the one that I cannot defend him on was thinking that Tillman Fertitta was going to trade with him because he did the whole thing. I'm going to leave. I'm done with Houston. I'm out.

I'm going to spend time with my family. And from what I heard, there was only one team that he wasn't allowed to go to, but otherwise I'm out. I'm going to spend time with my family. And from what I heard, there was only one team that he wasn't allowed to go to, but otherwise he was out. And whether how genuine that was, I don't know. But within a couple weeks,

all of a sudden he was in Philly. And I don't think Fertitta was ever actually trading him. James Harden is my take. And the Nets, I think they were waiting. They were waiting for the Nets, for Durant, to really push those guys to do it. And then finally they end up throwing in Jared Howland and Picks.

But, House, was that the big Darryl mistake? Can we criticize him on that, thinking that Houston would trade him, that he could just leave, go to Philly, and then take James Harden with him, basically? It's impossible to know. There's only one way to know that, and that's to sit in a room with Tillman Fertitta and Daryl Morey and cross-examine those two and see which one of them feels like is more truthful. Sloan Conference?

Sloan Conference, February. Let's do it. You know what? You guys are going to be so depressed because if I would have known we were doing this pod, I could have asked him last night. Tillman Fita flew into memphis and showed up at the game wow last night well actually i have plenty of good reasons why memphis ribs would be one reason he probably i don't know he wanted to see a 40 point drubbing i don't know i mean i don't know why he showed up but it was weird when he walked in everybody Everybody was like, what is he doing here?

The team didn't even know he was showing up. He just showed up out of nowhere. That all sounds very consistent with what that owner is all about and some of his legacy previous to being an owner and all that kind of thing. So here's the thing. Here's the question. Let's just forget the Harden thing, and we'll forget that completely. Okay?

Let's just forget the Harden thing, and we'll forget that completely, okay? Let's just fast forward. To me, Ben Simmons' value right now is worse than it was, even if you want to say there wasn't a ton on the table and wasn't a good trade. Whatever there was, there was, right? So after the playoffs and they lose to the Hawks, that's a bad deal. No way around it, right? I don't think they could have traded him in June between the playoffs and the draft with how he played.

Just from how he looked in the playoffs. I think everybody needed to kind of take a step back and. All right. Wonder what happened. Let's say you get to the draft. Then you get to free agency. Then you get to, you know, you get to the point where the demand becomes public up until that point it's a little different deal because i think if i'm trading aren't you saying like what are you gonna do

like what leverage do you have your guy's not playing for you and he wants out like i don't see how he gets a good deal for ben simmons at this point but could you but i don't see how he gets a good deal for Ben Simmons at this point. But I don't know how you get a good deal from house. Do you, is there any different than July when you have a guy going, I want out. And now everybody in the league knows you have to trade somebody. You're not getting a good offer at that point. What is the,

what's the historical precedent of a team being in the power seat in the two weeks after their player says, get me the fuck out of here. Well, here's what, here's what I'd say to that. You just stepped on house. No, it's fine. Stop sharing.

I want to hear from Berno. You're Russell Westbrook in house. You just clear it out. Hold on now. Berno gets high usage. It's two on one. Berno gets high usage here. It's two on one with a frontal attack.

It is a frontal attack. This is right on my front. And look, there was original reporting that after the season, and this was not made public, that Rich Paul met with the Sixers and they said, we'll help you. Let's find a trade. Let's find a trade. At that point, you say, let's work together.

Look, even if you don't have leverage guess who does have leverage that guy he's got leverage everywhere all over the league he's got leverage so if rich paul came to you and said you're better off without him he's better off without you let us help you let's find a deal you get it done then And you would have had that help instead. Now he's not helping you. You guys are adversaries now, for God's sakes. But if you think Ben's lying, say he's lying. You know, if that report is true and Rich Paul did go to the Sixers and they did have that sound, sober, right-headed, rational conversation, then the move by Simmons to publicly announce that he is not going to show up for training camp

is puzzling, to say the least. That was after the fact. That was after the cooperation. I understand. But what happened between those two moments? If they were in a cooperative mood... Now, I think Daryl's hand was screwed by the combination of Doc Rivers and Joel Embiid in the heat of the moment coming out and saying what they said. That put Daryl in an impossible position right then and there. The playoffs are over. Everybody saw with their own two eyes what happened with Simmons. And then Doc and, and B basically created the,

the environment that was going to be very difficult for, for Simmons to, to, to navigate, right. I mean, the team had to have gone behind the channels and said, look,

we know what those guys said. It was heat of the moment. We love you. Please come play him playing is it was his best leverage all through this. It continues it was his best leverage. All through this, it continues to be his best leverage. And I don't agree with the idea that it's a diminishing asset. And the reason I don't is because the NBA market is a dynamic market. It's not a fixed market. It changes on a weekly basis. It changes on nearly a daily basis. We will know from all the way up to December the 15th, which is the first kind of interesting date on the calendar when all of

the free agents from the summer are eligible to be assets in trades. That will be one kind of moment. And then between December the 15th and the trade deadline, we'll have a whole nother set of opportunities to examine. But in that timeframe, it's kind of a free option for Darrell, right? Just sit tight, see how the league develops. Some teams are going to feel like they need to be buyers and they might, their point of view on who is an eligible candidate for Ben Simmons is going to change because of whatever's going on with their their local situation. Well, December 15th is the date. That's when all the contracts that you sign in the summer become tradable, like an extensions to like somebody like Marcus Smart. This is what I don't understand. I don't understand how he has leverage. Everybody says, well, yeah, then all of these things become available. Why? Why am I trading a star to get Ben Simmons? If I'm another team, I'm going, what if he doesn't like it here? Then I got to put up with all this bullshit. Like, no way. I'm not doing this.

Yeah, but now you're talking about that's a different calculus, right? Now you're talking about the devil that you know versus the devil that you don't know. Like at some point, Carl Anthony Towns in Minnesota, like that relationship, we just keep watching them pile up losses. And you sent a note, know the other night right about what kind of a winning character does that guy possess year after year after year but could he in a different kind of situation flourish where he you know the whole thing is different and maybe the the timberwolves looking at their situation we want to build a young team we want a younger

team let's go young. Let's buy ourselves five years right here, and let's just see if we can be a run-and-gun team. The guy from Chris Finch from Toronto might have a team character in mind, and maybe the two sides at the T-Wolves say, K.A.T., we love you. You've been a beloved son here. It's time to move on. K.A.T.

would welcome it, wouldn't he? Ben Simmons is like, here's the opportunity. That's got to be a three-teamer if that happens. The other thing is, that guy had an affair with his secretary or whatever, and Daryl's boy, he's gone. Who knows?

I'm talking about hypotheticals out there about situations changing on the ground in in the like what do you think is going on in portland you think they're happy there maybe maybe maybe not but i will say this if i'm bringing in if again i'm looking at it through the prism of i'm bringing in ben simmons okay and what if he doesn't like his situation here? We see what lengths he has gone to now to not play and to get out of this situation, which, by the way, they were the number one seed. They're the number one seed. So again, I've never made an excuse for the way Ben Simmons acts. I wouldn't trade for him. That's why I think you guys are all goofy for talking about how

smart Daryl has been. How on earth does he attain leverage? How on earth does this get better? If you tell me, all right, let's say, let's pontificate because this could happen. Let's say a star doesn't become available. You've already laid down the law, right? A difference maker. If it takes four years, I'm getting a difference maker. Fine. Let's just say a star is not in the cards.

It doesn't materialize. There's not one out there that you can trade for. There's not another team that wants to deal with this. What's going on right now? All right. Now. I have an answer. I have an answer for you.

Okay. I don't think Daryl ever wanted to trade Ben Simmons. Oh, give me a break. No, no. I really don't. I really don't. I don't think he did. You don't believe that. No, give me a break. No, no, I really don't. Come on. I really don't. I don't think he did. You don't believe that. No, no, I do.

In the context of what of this episode, he clearly wanted to trade Ben Simmons for Harden. We know that to be true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the current, under the situation that developed post-playoffs, I think Bill's right. He wants to trade him for anybody that's good.

No, listen, listen. Here's why I don't think he wanted to trade him for anybody that's good. Listen, here's why I don't think he wanted to trade him. And we know this for a fact because I know from some reporting I did and some other people at the ringer, he went to every team and just asked for their best player. He went to the Celtics and asked for Tatum.

The Celtics were never trading Tatum for Ben Simmons. But if you don't want to trade him, is that what you do? Yeah, I think you do. I think you go to each team and then you say to, you go back to clutch. That doesn't make any sense.

Listen, he goes back to clutch and clutch is like, I, did you go, did you try to trade Ben Simmons? He's like, yeah, I think he's one of the best 18 players in the league and I'm not trading him

unless I get a player of his caliber back and nobody wanted to trade for him. So let's figure this out. And then it escalated after that. I think the mistake he made, if I, if you can't run around trying to trade him to everybody, but he didn't try, he tried to trade him for players who were as good as him. What he wasn't trying to do is try to trade him for Malcolm Brogdon. I understand, but if, but if I've got, look, bro, if I've got a girlfriend and I go around and I go to the bar and there's a million hot chicks

out there and I say, hey, you want to go out with me? Hey, you want to go out with me? They requested a trade. What's he going to do? And then I come back to my girl and be like, actually, you know, yeah. What if your girl would check that requested the trade no and if any of them would have said yes then yeah i would i would have left

with them but i guess i'm stuck with you so let's work this is this is what house is like in college she would say no comment she would say f you which which is exactly what Ben Simmons did. The one thing I will say about there being teams out there that would, would want Simmons where, you know, Simmons is attractive to them. That's up to clutch. That's the test of Rich Paul and the, and the clutch mafia to find those teams. And I think those teams do exist. I think there are teams and situations out there

where Clutch is influenced with those teams. And look, Ben Simmons has a good resume. He has an all-star resume. That combination, I think, like every team believes that a player will be different with them. Look at what Russell Westbrook's been doing. Wow, he's been traveling all around. The Lakers think that he's going to be different with them. Look at what Russell Westbrook's been doing. Wow, he's been traveling all around. The Lakers think that he's

going to be good for them. I'll tell you this. The Celtics would trade for Ben Simmons. They're just not putting Brown or Tatum in the deal. Those guys are off limits. But they would trade for him. But there's difference makers. That's what he says. He's laid down the law and said, I'm only getting a difference maker. Here's the thing, though.

He does have a time clock with Embiid. You can't throw away an entire Ben Simmons season where you don't trade him. So they're going to have to trade him between mid-December and mid-February. And everybody knows that. Everyone knows that, which is why he's got to wait for a team to be going.

Like, look at the Portland situation. Lillard had a terrible start. The team has no mojo at all. It looks like it's heading in the wrong direction. And meanwhile, Maxie for Philly has been fantastic. And a Maxie and Simmons for Lillard trade seems a lot more fair than it did five months ago, right? Because Maxie, it's like, whoa, you're giving up Maxie?

That's a real asset. That guy's good. You can get a better deal for Damian Lillard, though. You probably could. If I'm in the business of shopping Damian Lillard, I can do better than that. So you're thinking like Shake Milton? Who else?

I'm saying with another team. I'm saying with another team. What's Memphis' offer? Make us a Memphis offer for Simmons. Can you give us one? I mean, for Ben Simmons? Yeah. There's no...

Look, your difference maker in somebody like that's eyes is Jaron Jackson, whose best role is going to be playing center. You have a center, so it's not a natural fit next to Embiid. And you're never giving up Morant.

I think this is a wonderful. Memphis is a wonderful destination. I'm not kidding. First of all, Jaron Jackson makes, they'd have trouble trading him with the extension because the contracts get all screwed up. But I do think he's the kind of asset they'd be looking at for Philly. I just don't know if Memphis can give up Jaron Jackson's four rebounds a game.

How do you replace that? How dare you? So many guys would have to chip in. It's like, what a corner. You would give your left testy for Jaron Jackson Jr. Would he rebound? I'd give it. Can he get eight rebounds a game?

He does like every other power forward. They stand out at the perimeter now. That's what everybody does. What's the difference between him and Joe Harris? Oh, how dare you? Does he go 20 feet within the rim? What does that guy do? One of them just turned 21 years old.

Great. How long are you making that excuse? Come on. Grab a rebound, Jared Jackson. Jesus. Is he aware he can grab the ball when it's up in the air? Do not take your... Look, House, do not let him take his Celtics aggression out on me. Is he aware he can grab the ball when it's up in the air? Do not take your...

Look, House, do not let him take his Celtics aggression out on me. Do not. You worry about your team. You don't worry about me. You don't worry about me. It would be nice to see Jason Tatum on the free throw line. I mean, I would just, you know, maybe three times a game, four times a game. It would be nice if Jason Tatum got better one of these years.

Look, you guys got to tell me. All right. Do you think that Daryl is going to end up with a star for Ben Simmons? I think Maxie would have to be involved. I think that's the path. I don't think if Simmons straight up with picks, I don't think gets him. Anybody who also isn't flawed would be my take. What do you think, Alex?

Max, he's a clutch guy too, by the way. Yeah. I think it's unlikely. I understand what Berno means when he says star, and I think it's unlikely that it will be a star. I think it will be like two very good players and an excellent draft pick. That's what I think is two players

that will be very complementary to the way that the Sixers are built that will maximize their opportunity to go deep in the playoffs. And as we discussed with my Washington Wizards, depth matters. Depth matters. And especially, we know this to be true

come playoff time. So two really good assets plus a draft pick could be enough i would say that hey hey that you better rip it bill because that is quarters you said i don't do it for quarters he literally just described quarters you cannot tell me that daryl moray is the smartest man in the room. If he trades the thing for whatever, two nickels and a quarter, I would keep, I'd rather have them than do the,

yeah, I'm with you. All right, Verno, we could hear you on the mismatch house. We can hear you on a fairway rolling. Yeah, we have a small hiatus,

but I'm on the Friday ringer gambling show. Is fairway rolling officially. When does it come back? Uh, January ish. That's that's, you know, we gave ourselves permission to,

uh, have emergency pods. If tiger comes out and plays, you know, in the Bahamas and two weeks or whatever. That's not happening. All right. Ringer gambling show Fridays for house.

Good to see you guys. See you. Thanks. Verdo. How can you be sure your child is making the right decision when choosing a university? The smart approach is to look at the facts, like the fact that York U graduates have a 90% employer satisfaction rate. That's because across its three GTA campuses, York U's programs are strategically designed to prepare students for a meaningful career and long-term success. Join us in creating positive change at yorku.ca slash write the future.

Warren Sharp is here. You can hear him on the Ringer Gambling Show on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. On Wednesdays, he's with the Terminator, Ben Solak. And they talk in some language that I think I mostly understand. But it's just like the language of people who have surpassed us mortals with football knowledge. Why don't we have a best football team this year, Sharp? We've got a number of great ones. Best one, I think there's a variety of factors. I think defenses made some big adjustments to take away what some of the very

best offenses were doing in the past. We're talking like the Chiefs and the Bills. And these offenses knew that heading into the offseason, the teams are going to try to figure out how to slow down what they like to do. They're going to play more of this defensive coverage that includes dropping these two safeties back and playing the shell defense and keeping everything in front of them. But I think they've been a little bit slow to counterpunch and to figure out what to do from there. It's been a little bit of a shock to their system in both cases. These were two of the very best offenses in the NFL. I mean, the Bills, 20 plus first downs every single game last season. No other team in NFL history had been able to accomplish that. And the Chiefs,

of course, two straight Super Bowls. So defenses are figuring out different strategies to defend these great offenses. And it's now going to be a matter of making the adjustments down the stretch of the season. And that's why I think this year is so fascinating because what we've seen to date is fine. It's been very exciting and interesting. For a while, there were no big upsets. what we've seen to date is fine. It's been very exciting and interesting. For a while, there were no big upsets. Now we've seen a few, so at least that adds to the intrigue. This stretch run, Bill, is going to be absolutely insane. I think there's going to be separation from some of the greatest teams. They're going to make some adjustments. I think it's going to be really exciting throughout the rest of the season and into the postseason.

So when you say the great offenses, and you would have said going into the year, Casey and Buffalo would be in that conversation. I think Dallas entered the conversation. And then they got shut out by Denver, who then the next week got picked apart by an inferior quarterback with inferior receivers. And I'm looking at, I bet on Denver last week and it's just like, all right,

now we have entered the, there's no rhyme or reason from week to week stage of the season, which has now been three weeks long. There was some predictability with the high favorites. I think at one point, what was it like 27 and O with the favorites in that like six to nine point range, then it flipped and it's

flipped and flipped. And the underdogs have basically been hitting over 50%. But the Denver, that sequence of Denver shutting out Dallas and then getting crushed by Philly to me was the weirdest thing that happened this season. What was the weirdest thing for you this season? The weirdest result that you're just like, I don't understand that. That breaks my brain. Oh, wow. I think that one was close because I did not think that there would be a chance that we would see the Cowboys lose that game. I think another one to me, if I'm looking back, I'm trying to pull up some of the prior results here. Another one to me would be the Rams performances over the last couple of weeks offensively. Just in general, because I think the Tennessee Titans, especially without Derrick Henry, are a very predictable style of offense. You can let them go ahead and try to run the ball on first down like they want to do. They're not going to have very much efficiency. You have to figure out how to block up that front four so that they're not pressuring you and then deliver the ball over the top. But the funny part

was, and I actually mentioned this on the Monday show on the gambling show, which you guys need to be subscribing to the ring or gambling show. It's a lot of fun with these three shows a week. But to Vernon yesterday on the Monday show, I said, I'm looking forward to betting against this quote unquote super team of the Rams the next couple of weeks because everybody's talking nonstop about how they've built themselves this juggernaut that can't be defeated. And so the 49ers were absolutely the right side last night. And that was pretty clear and obvious. But I just think Sean McVay's inability to figure out what to do offensively, coupled with the fact that Matthew Stafford has delivered results. I don't want to say he looks like, but has delivered results, particularly on a down

to down situation that aren't that much different than some of the throws and the decisions that Jared Goff had been making. It's like, what are we doing here? We got Matthew Stafford, the handpicked guy to go out and win Sean McVay this Super Bowl that he hasn't been able to win because Jared Goff was the reason he couldn't get it done. And now we've seen a couple of straight weeks against teams that I mean, the Titans now have the best record in the NFL, but I don't think anybody's saying that they're the best team in the NFL. And the 49ers were backsliding completely. And the Rams a guy who's had a lot of dinks and dunks in his body over the last 10, 12 years. And that was the big question with him, right? What are we getting when we get Matthew Stafford? We're getting a guy who got the shit kicked out of him in Detroit for an entire decade. And how is he going to evolve as he hits his mid-30s? To me, he does not look spry. Even somebody like Brady, who's 44, looks like he's in good shape, good health. He looks like he's physically good,

which has made his last couple weeks so strange. He just hasn't been accurate. People are like, he doesn't have Gronk, he doesn't have Antonio Brown. It's like, all right, well, he still has Godwin and Evans and Tyler Johnson's pretty good and Brate's okay. But he just doesn't look accurate to me. Stafford doesn't look healthy to me,

which I think is the difference. Maybe I'm overthinking it. It could be. I mean, look, the defenses that they've played have been respectable, that's for sure. The Titans' defense is exceeding my expectations in terms of how beat up their secondary was, and yet they're continuing to perform well

against respectable offenses. The 49ers, this is a team that I've been very down on what Kyle Shanahan has been able to deliver for the 49ers. Your hero. Your hero, Kyle Shanahan. He's really let you down. He's let me down, but it hasn't been

that unsurprising because he's let me down from his ability to win games, but this is something that we knew before. His ability to design offenses that can have success in a non-traditional manner where the modern NFL is these three wide receivers and we're going to attack you through the air. And he can just flip to a completely different style of offense that plays really well to what Jimmy G can excel with. That is something that I always knew that Kyle can do. And he's one of the reasons I like him as a play caller and an offensive mind. but his ability to bring a team together to actually win games has been lacking. But he really matches up well. He does really well against Sean McVay. I mean, these two guys used to work with one another. Those games are always must watch TV. So that was not that surprising. I'll just say that in terms of that result, I was

backing the 49ers there. But you're surprised I had the Niners too. It saved a pretty lackluster gambling week for me and the Niners saved it at the tail end. Are you surprised by the Bills' relative impotency compared to the defenses that they've been playing? Like six points against the Jaguars is almost a cry for help. I'm going to say one thing here before you answer. Is it possible they just only have one above average skill position guy?

Like other than Diggs, do they have a guy who's above average out of all of their weapons? And maybe that's part of this. And you look at some of these other teams, I don't know if their offense is really from a skill standpoint that different. Like is there, is there skill? Are there skill guys better than the Patriots guys? I'm not even sure. I actually liked the Patriots running backs way more. I like Kendrick Bourne as like a second receiver more than anyone. The bills have,

I like Hunter Henry. I just don't know if there's much of a difference. And I'm wondering, did we overrate the Bills talent a little bit? So John Feliciano's injury along the offensive line, who plays a key part in setting predictions and making adjustments. He, his first game out this season was against, you can probably guess which team, the Jacksonville Jaguars. Right. And immediately, like that offensive line was unable to pick up the blitz and Josh Allen was under tremendous amounts of pressure.

They need him back. This is not an offensive line that can afford to lose players. It's such a different offensive line than your offensive line with the Patriots because you guys can run block really well. The Bills' offensive line is built to pass block, and it does not do as well when those guys are called to run block, and that's why even though the Bills have been...

See, the Bills have wanted to try to change up a little bit. When you have a team like the Bills, like the Chiefs, even like the Eagles, this season, through the first six, even like the Eagles this season through the first like six, seven weeks, defenses played these three teams with the fewest men in the box on average on early downs. They just said, try to run it. We don't care if you try to run it. You guys only want to pass the ball. We're daring you to run the ball. And so none of those teams, with the exception of the Eagles, really had the O-line

that was going to get out there and try to run block with success and trusted the efficiency that the running game could deliver as compared to what the passing game could deliver. The Eagles, on the other hand, are like, look, we've got a great offensive line that can run block and Hurts is fine, but he's nowhere near Josh Allen patch from the homes. Like who cares if we run the ball a few more times, like it's not going to hurt our efficiency that much. And boom, you go up against, which is going to be interesting against the saints.

And I'm kind of getting off the answer here, but with this, with the saints, such a great run defense, the egos have been able to run the ball against three very bad run defenses over the last three weeks. Now they have to go up against the number one run defense in the NFL. What will they try to do this week? Big question. But getting back to the Bills, the true test for the Bills in terms of, well, let me answer your immediate question. I think the Bills' skilled position players are more than adequate when you've got a quarterback, the level of Josh Allen being protected and playing at his level that we should expect. He doesn't have to be incredible. He just can't be terrible. And if he's playing what we expect him to be, this offense is putting

up high 20s to low 30s per game on a given week. The issue becomes, yeah, if you can try to eliminate digs, teams were trying to do that last year, but they're playing this Bills team a little bit differently. And I think Dayball has been trying to run the ball a little bit more to try to balance things out. And it's actually put them in some difficult situations, especially if you look at some of the second down decisions from a play calling perspective and how frequently they are choosing to run the ball in like second and long.

It's still not like egregious, but it's at a higher rate than the NFL average. And it's something that I think they need to make some adjustments on because this stretch that they're about to go on. And I mentioned this, maybe it was on the Friday show, on the gambling show. If you look at Bill's offense from week two, after they played the Steelers who have the 13th best defense, they have played from week two to week 10. So all of the games since, only one team that even ranks 20th or better defensively. And that was the Tennessee Titans. Now, yes, they put up 31 points, lost that game, probably could have won that game. But all these other defenses that they're playing are 25th Miami Dolphins twice,

the 30th ranked Washington football team, the 28th ranked Kansas City Chiefs, the Jaguars, the Jets, the Houston Texans. Terrible, terrible. Now they're about to enter the stretch for six weeks where they are doing nothing but playing top 10 defenses. The Colts rank number 11, so that's the only one outside of that. Then you got number three Saints, number five Patriots, your Patriots twice. That's going to determine the AFC East, in my opinion. Then they've got a game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who ranked number nine defensively, and a game against the Carolina Panthers, who ranked number six. So Buffalo was not looking great to me offensively

the last three weeks. Now you're talking about going up against these top 10 defenses for six straight weeks. They need to figure some things out and do so very quickly if they're going to have any success or hope at looking good against these defenses. Make the case to me that Buffalo is better than New England in 2021. What is better about Buffalo than the Patriots at this point? The Patriots to me seem like a more balanced team. I think they have a better coach. I think they have more ways they can win game to game. Their arrow is pointing up. They can run and pass.

And really the only thing you would say if, in my opinion, if you're making the Buffalo cases in one game, I'd rather I trust Josh Allen over a rookie QB would be the default. What, what else am I missing? Because I've watched 10 weeks of the season. I think the Patriots are better than the Buffalo right now. Neither team has been

tested with great defenses that they've played for the most part this season. The Patriots have played the fifth easiest schedule of opposing defenses and the eighth easiest schedule of opposing offenses. The Bills have played the third easiest schedule of opposing offenses. The Bills have played the third easiest schedule of opposing defenses and the third easiest schedule of opposing offenses. The strength of schedule that both of these teams were playing, and we knew this entering the season, has been terrible because you look at the Jets and the Dolphins, plus they're playing games against the Houston Texans and sprinkling in the Carolina Panthers or the Atlanta Falcons for you guys. These are teams that are not very good in general. So we haven't really seen them tested.

When we are heading into the winter months in the Northeast, I love the fact that you guys can execute what I think is a very dynamic game plan where the defense won't know, is it going to be a run or a pass? They have to respect both equally because the runs are actually productive. For Buffalo, the difference is that the passing attack is much more explosive and aggressive, but they don't have the balance that the defense really has to respect the run. Dayball can call some run plays to mix it up, but those run plays are not going to be nearly productive enough to make the defense really scared. And I still think defenses will be

playing the bills and say, go ahead. You've been trying to do this all year. Keep trying to run the ball if you want to. We're still playing the pass and going to try to limit the upside of the pass. And we're still going to try to rush Josh Allen and disrupt that passing attack. And you guys can try to run the ball if you want, but you're not going to have much success. The defensive side of the ball is very interesting because the Bills have the number one defense, the number one defense against the pass, the number three defense against the run. They have performed incredibly. But if you look at the quarterbacks that they've been playing, if you look at the offenses

that they've been playing, it still is nothing really to write home about. And I think we're going to find out. You can't emphasize that point strongly enough. Roethlisberger, Tua, whoever the hell Washington's QB was in week three, Davis Mills, Mahomes, who they caught Mahomes in a funk. Tannehill's the best QB they've played just in terms of consistency this year other than Mahomes. Tua again, Trevor Lawrence, and then last week, Mike White, Mike Lotus himself, Mike White. That's a brutal crew. I have no idea if their defense is good. How do we know lead, Frank Reich, I mean, I like Frank Reich as a coach, but as an offensive, it's really weird.

My thoughts on Frank Reich, he is a very creative offensive mind who really gets a lot out of his quarterbacks. He's worked with a bunch of them. They've always excelled under his system. He calls a lot of a variety of plays that tend to work against defenses. But from a conservative approach, when his teams get the lead on early downs, they're so they just turtle up and shell up and just run the ball and hope that they can get into third and manageable and convert and then keep

bleeding the clock. I'm going to be really interested to see that Colts secondary, the Colts defense great against the run, bad against the pass, injuries in the secondary. If the Bills are able to block up this Colts pass rush, throw the ball over the top, and they're favored by seven points, if they can get a lead here, then force the Colts to try to actually open up their offense the entire game and chase them. What does this Bills defense do? Is this Bills defense elite? I don't really even think the Colts offense is elite, but do they look really bad against Carson Wentz? No, definitely not. Taylor's elite. I think Taylor's been one of the three most reliable running backs we've had.

The Pats are in a great spot where they got Atlanta on Thursday. And granted, the Thursday night games are wonky every week. It's hard to trust anything. I've made the smart decision not to bet any Thursday game, which I'm really proud of myself on. But if they get through this and they go seven and four, there's some pressure now on the bills in that Colts game where all of a sudden they could be tied with the Pats. And then they still have the two left. And as you said, with the cold weather stuff, I didn't know what McDaniels, I was texting you and a couple of people about it. Like, I don't know what McDaniels is doing. I don't know why he won't take the training wheels off back.

I think some of it had to do with, he didn't trust the offensive line. Didn't really know the team. He's been lights out the last couple of weeks. I got to say he came, he came out of his coma. The stuff they did against the Browns was just fantastic. The opening drives they've had game after game, I think they've scored on six or seven straight opening drives. And they're kind of built for cold weather, bang, smash mouth stuff, especially with Trent Brownback. And I like where my team's at. I really do. I think they have the most well-rounded AFC team. Mack is the question. Can a rookie QB do this? We've never seen, at least in recent history, a rookie QB light it up like this.

I have to go back to, you'd have to go back to Russell Wilson on the Seahawks that year, or Roethlisberger with the Steelers. This was my case for picking them to win the Super Bowl. And I think people thought I was being a lunatic, but I really did feel like the AFC was wide open this year, but it's going to depend on, can Mac come through for another two, two and a half months? What are you seeing from him so far? Well, I, I, for a little while was very frustrated that you guys weren't utilizing your two tight ends.

Now, John, who has been hurt over the last couple of games. And so that's understandable, But the efficiency that you guys were getting when utilizing the two tight end sets, because what Belichick has always done, I mean, you obviously know this is he's tried to do some things different with personalities, use a lot of fullback, 21 personnel, just do things that not as many teams are doing to make you adjust to figure out how to play them differently. And I really felt like with going out and acquiring these multiple tight ends that you stick those heavier personnel packages on the field, you force

the defense with their personnel to adjust before the snap even occurs with their personnel on there to match up. And then you can run or pass out of it and you can motion and you can put Hunter Henry out, split out wide. You could do a lot of different things with those tight ends that make it fun for your offense and unpredictable for the defense. And I really felt like they weren't doing that enough. You know, I still think this is a team that, yeah, the Falcons game is going to be interesting Thursday short rest for both teams. But I mean, you look at their

schedule. This is a team for the Patriots so far. You've either played great teams or shit teams. Like there is only one game that's been in between, and that was the Chargers who ranked 16th in total efficiency. Otherwise, you're literally talking about nothing but bottom five teams, the Jets twice, the Texans, the Dolphins, the Panthers, and now the Falcons or top 10 teams. Clearly, the Bucks, the Cowboys, the Saints and the Browns. you're going to go up in a stretch. And this is where I really, that's setting up for so much that we're going to learn about these teams and their ability to kind of prove themselves over the next four weeks. Because after the Falcons, you've got the Titans, you have the best record in the NFL, two games against the Bills and one game against the Colts. That's your proving ground. That's your test. The last two games of the season, you got the Jags and the Dolphins again. Those are like, you know, that's like the take home test. Here's your real test that you're going to be going up against

those four weeks. You got a bye week in between. That's the other thing. It's been incredible to watch what they've been doing with Mac, despite not having a bye because rookie quarterbacks, there's so much that they can review. And I found that teams do not self-scout nearly as much as they should when they've got another game on deck. A lot of teams go back and like, OK, let's sit down. Let's break out the notebooks. Let's review all the tape.

What can we do from a self-scouting perspective? And it's like, you need to be doing more of that over the course of the season. So I think that buy in week 14 is going to set you up perfectly. I like where you're at, where Mac Jones is at right now. I think he's great. I don't think they're asking him to do too much. Could they be asking him to do a little bit more? I think the answer is yes. And they're going to, because they're going to need to in that stretch run against some really great teams coming up here. And I think he's going to rise to the challenge.

I'm curious, do you, have you come around on the Nelson Aguilar sign? I mean, I think you guys really wasted that one, but I love the tight ends that you brought in. And that's what I think you need to push. The diversity in the personnel groupings needs to continue to increase. I think we have not seen the ceiling of this Patriots offense. The defense is rounding into shape as it tends to do later in the season a lot of the time. I think this offense, we have not seen the ceiling. I think they can be better from a personnel deployment, from a game planning perspective. Mac is continuing to grow. And from a health perspective, you're just now starting to get some guys back that I

think are going to help out too. Plus 370 to win the AFC East on FanDuel right now. I mean, look, you guys have two games against the Bills. Yeah, those are pretty good odds. You've got great odds. I think that should be like plus 250. But on Aguilar, that one hasn't worked out. No.

I think part of it is Mack has then the time to take a big drop and chuck it downfield to him. Really until this last game. And he tried once in Cleveland. Cleveland has good D backs. They had them covered. And that was that.

But I do think as the season evolves, because Mac has more time, I think that's going to be in play, but you didn't mention Kendrick Bourne, who is the other guy they signed, who's like the perfect Patriot guy. They, and there's so many similarities

to the early 2000s Pats and this team, right down to how the 2001 season played out, where I think the 2001 Pats were one and three and this team was two and four. They were both three and four at one point. They both started peaking in the middle of the season and got momentum. But Kendrick Bourne is like a classic David Patton,

David Givens type of, just like he does a lot of stuff. He's a good blocker. So he's been good. Henry is the one that worries me because his history says it's hard to get five straight months out of him. When he's on the field, he's a force.

And Mac, he's become Mac's security blanket. You can almost tell when Mac's going to throw it to him. What I want to see, I just want to see one week when they have all the weapons with the line, which could be Thursday. I don't know if Harris is going to play. But Ramondre, this draft they had, where they get Mac, they get Ramondre,

and they get Barmore. And those might be three blue chippers. And you think you get one blue chipper in a draft. You're happy. They got three. Then the draft last year with Duggar and Uche and they got two linemen out of it. So they were able to rebuild a little bit. And Aguilar has really been the only miss other than Jalen Mills, who's going to put my dad in the hospital. Frankly, I don't I don't want them to get Harris back for this Thursday.

And I want them to. I mean, you don't want this. I'd be fine with it if they lose this game. I'd be fine if they barely win this Thursday. And I want them to, I mean, you don't want this. I'd be fine with it. If they lose this game, I'd be fine. If they barely win this game, because you'll probably have plays out. I want the Tennessee Titans to throttle the Houston Texans this upcoming week. And then I want the Patriots at home against the Tennessee Titans. I want the Patriots. That's next week's game week 13. I'm sorry. Week 12. I want you guys to be at your full strength. I want the Patriots. That's next week's game, week 13. I'm sorry, week 12. I want you guys to be at your full strength. I want that line to be really short. And I want you guys to be able to throttle the Tennessee Titans at that point.

Well, that's an offense that we should be able to do well against because they're running backs. That is now one of the worst running back casts in the league. And it looks like they missed on Julio Jones, which was a big move for them to try. That was basically their Aguilar move. I'm not sure they have the firepower, but the thing with Tennessee, like we have these teams every year. And I think Baltimore was a little like this too

until last week. These teams that if they can hang around in the fourth quarter, they steal the game. And Tennessee has been a steal the game team all season, which is out of the Belichick DNA. But the other team can hang around and they can still pull one out of their ass. Wait, I have two more nerdy questions for you and then we'll go. Fourth down stuff, you've been one of the leaders of this movement of going for it on fourth down. This is a thing that has really evolved

since the late 2000s and has now gone to another level. If you look at the fourth down stats, they're kind of shockingly good. You have almost two-thirds of the teams are 50% and up on fourth down. You have some teams, like the Chargers are% and up on fourth down. You have some teams like the chargers are 11 for 17 on fourth down. Denver's 10 for 15. Tennessee's 10 for 14. The Jaguars are 10 for 17, but just for

the most part, like the Vikings are eight for 11 Casey seven for 11. Did you ever think we'd get where fourth down was 55, 60% across the board? Because that seems like where we're headed. Well, I think the reason that it has such a high conversion rate is because most of these are the short yardage situations where the conversion rate should be high. They're not the desperation fourth and seven. We're down in the fourth quarter by two scores. We got to go for it here. They're the plus EV when you should be going for it on fourth down because the alternative is either punting on fourth and two from midfield or kicking a 53-yard field goal on fourth and three. And so they're these short yardage, high leverage opportunities to convert. And there's so much at the offense's disposal in these short yardage situations because you can run,

you can pass, your quarterback can run. Everything's open on the table for you there. The key was not, would we be able to convert these? The key was always, can we get a team to attempt these? Because we know the conversion rate should be good enough. These are good spots to go for it. That's why we're trying to get the teams to attempt them. They just need to have a little bit more understanding of the expected win percentage that is gained, the higher win probability that is gained by making the decision to attempt these plays. And I think once you see that success, it's like a cascading wave. It starts out not looking all that great, but once some teams start to do it and see the results, then more and more teams are kind of following them. And we're seeing this cascading wave increasing. The crazy thing to me, Bill, about this season is that I went back and looked. Every single team now has played at least nine games. Yeah.

And we have seen the exact same number. I mean, it's uncanny. 3,630 third down attempts in the first nine games for every team this year as last year. The number is identical to the attempt, 3,630. We've also seen more fourth down attempts. As you mentioned, this is what we've tried to get teams to do. More fourth downs attempted this year than last year. And yet we've seen over 5% fewer first downs this season. We've seen 5,590 first

downs converted this year compared to 6,317 over the team's first nine games last year. And there's a variety of factors that play into that. But I think, I don't know, we don't have the time or desire to dig deep into the reasons why. But the bottom line here is that it's part of the reason why we are seeing teams struggling with opponents, teams that should be better having a game that they're not as great because we're seeing still not as many third downs being bypassed. And we're seeing teams perform a little bit worse overall on these third downs. And so it's making the games more competitive, more exciting, and just more opportunity for swings and fluctuations in the end result, particularly from an ATS perspective. We've seen dogs do really well this season. What about home teams? Home teams are like under 500 just to win, not even against the spread.

Right. Yeah. And same as last year, which is what some people probably didn't think was going to happen this year once you got the home crowds back. Because last year, I think the home teams weren't nearly as good, but home field advantage was declining. And now all of a sudden you take away that crowd noise. You think, okay, yeah, of course, that makes sense.

Now, in hindsight, some people were able to predict it ahead of time. We got on the front of the bandwagon. That's why we saw more points being scored. Look at the totals too, Bill. We've seen far more unders this year than last year. Last year was like free money being given out if you're betting overs the first four weeks, if you were ahead of what was happening. And this year I've hardly bet any overs. Most of the stuff that I've been betting has been unders. And I started back in the beginning of the season in doing that.

And it's not as fun for people to bet on. It's not as fun for people to tell them, okay, bet this team under like, oh crap, I hate betting unders because you're like nervous the entire time. But it is absolutely the way that the league has been trending this season. I have a theory on this and I don't know if I'm right, but we saw it happen in the NBA where everybody gravitated to a specific way to play basketball in the NBA, where it's like shoot threes, shoot as many threes as possible, find guys who shoot threes, move away from big men. And there was a stylistic thing that happened and everybody kind of moved that way. I wonder with football,

because the emphasis the last 10 years has been on throwing the ball, running backs don't matter as much. Running back, find offensive linemen who can pass block. You know, and then on the flip side, the defenses are watching this evolution of these pass-heavy offenses. And then they start thinking,

all right, how do I put my defense together to stop teams like this? And they're moving more D-backs, right? You saw in the draft last year, Sertan and Horn go ahead of Mac Jones and Justin Fields and even Devontae Smith and Michael Parsons because it's so hard to find good cover people. I wonder if the defenses that are being built now

are being built to stop these types of offenses. And at the same time, these offenses are only built to do one thing. So you see like a team like the Rams or the Bucs where the Bucs should just clearly be ramming the ball down Washington's throat once Chase Young goes out. But they're kind of built just to throw the ball and then move the ball by passing. Same for the Chargers, where it seems like they could run Eckward down people's throats,

but they're always trying to throw, throw, throw, move the ball. I wonder if there's this weird disconnect now where the defenses have caught up to the offenses. I might be overthinking it. I don't know that they've caught up, but I do think that offenses in general, league-wide, are trending towards a more efficient style of play, just like in basketball, for what's the most efficient way to score. And so we figured out the way the place is on the court to shoot from. It's your fault, by the way. It's you and your brethren. You're telling all these people to throw on first down, to just move all that stuff. But now these teams are doing it and they're forgetting how to establish the run. Unlike defense. First, you have to understand what the rules

construct is and to game plan your build of your team to attack the weakness of what the rules are in the NFL. Then the second part is to maximize the tweaks for who you have on your roster. Emphasize the personnel that you actually have. So you're attacking the rules construct, then you're building towards what you do well. Then you have to build towards what the defense that you're playing on that given week struggles to do. And what I feel like we've seen a lot of is defenses have been more willing to adapt their entire strategy. Change. Okay. For this week, we're going to change everything and do what the chiefs struggle to defend or struggle to attack against. We haven't seen quite as much offenses, just throw caution to the wind and attack that weakness of the defense as that third stage in the equation of

how to win games the most effectively. What is the quickest path to victory is yeah, you need to do what you do well in the rules construct, but attack this defense where they are the absolute weakest. And I think more teams are going to need to do that. But in terms of league-wide trends and whatnot, yeah, I mean, if you go back in preparation for the pot, early down target depth has absolutely decreased. It was 7.1 yards back in 2018. It's dropped to 6.9, 6.7, and now it's 6.3 this season. First down explosive play rate has decreased as well. Third down target depth has increased. More teams are throwing it beyond the sticks because they know that that's more efficient. But if those plays, those plays, the further you throw the ball, the harder it is to actually complete those passes, which then does lead to more fourth down

situations and fewer first downs, which we're seeing league-wide. We're seeing more pre-snap motion usage, which we've been begging teams to do more play action, do more pre-snap motion. But the teams still are trying to figure out how to make the most out of pre-snap motion. I've seen a variety of teams ramping up their pre-snap motion usage,

but they're really seeing no efficiency that's being added. They're just doing it because they know it's smart to do, but they're not doing it in the ways that are going to hurt the defense or put them in a bind or help the quarterback enough to identify things with that motion. So the offenses league-wide in general trends are improving towards more efficiency, but I do think we need better strategies on a week-to-week basis to attack weaknesses of defenses. It's a chess match.

Feels like the defense has caught up a little bit this year. Last thing and then we'll go. Let's make this quick. Vikings are plus two and a half against Green Bay at home this week. I know you're going to cover this on Wednesday and on Friday.

Green Bay has been crushing everybody this year, gambling-wise. They've just been, they've covered every week but two, maybe even every week but one. Minnesota is interesting because if you just look at the stats, it's pretty good. If you look at stuff like

they're the only team in the league that's led by a touchdown every game this year and these things like that, they've gone toe-to-toe with teams. They can run, they can throw, they have a pass rush. They're kind of their own worst enemy. They have some shoot-ourselves-in-the-foot losses. Last week, they pulled one out. They have cousins who I hate betting on under any circumstances. But yet every year, there's a team like this that the numbers say they're better than the record says and the eye test says.

And then sometimes that will catch up and then they'll kind of start moving in the second half of the season. I feel bad bringing this up because the Viking fans really hate themselves for loving this team probably more than any other franchise. But is there a chance the Vikes make a little run here?

The last two wildcard spots in the NFC are wide open and they do have talent. probably more than any other franchise. But is there a chance the Vikes make a little run here? The last two wildcard spots in the NFC are wide open and they do have talent. Like I wouldn't be shocked if they beat the Packers this weekend. Is there any reason to believe in the Vikes? Well, I mean, look, the stretch run for the Vikings is beautiful. If you look at it,

they do play a tough game this week and next week against the 49ers, but you've got the Lions and two games against the 49ers, but you've got the Lions and two games against the Bears, plus a home game against the Pittsburgh Steelers. So it sets up well that four of your last six opponents are pretty decent opponents to be drawing in those spots. The tough part is you are going to have to win some of these games. Now, like you said, they've gone on a little run. They beat the Ravens and they beat the Chargers. I think they have to win this Packers game for this to be a real thing.

They're home. It just has to be a win or else that's it. The ship is sealed. Yeah, and you have a team, obviously, offensively. My concern with their offense in this game is simply the fact that I do not believe in their play caller and their strategies offensively. I don't think they're creative enough. And they've self-admitted that Kubiak needs to try to do more things. He comes out last week and says, yeah, it would be nice. We need to try to get

the ball more to Justin Jefferson, as if he's a fan just commenting on home that he needs to get the ball. He's the play caller. He could do that if he wants to. He's had weeks, months to do that. Why are you admitting that? Also, he's always open. Justin Jefferson's open every time they throw it up. He's three yards ahead of the other guy. So they have the talent and Kirk Cousins like, yeah, should he be making what he's making? How does he contribute? All those questions. Great questions.

Probably the answer is no. But he is a fine quarterback when he's put in the right situations and he can deliver the ball. I like this receiving core that they have. And it's not a great run game. I mean, their top two receivers plus the running back. Most teams in the league would die to have that combination of Cook plus Thielen plus Jefferson.

They're great. So they just need better play calling. And Thielen, they don't even use some games. Yeah, I think they need better play calling. I think the Chargers and the Vikings have been the two most frustrating play calling teams this year. The Chargers, even the Patriots going against them and you're relieved

by the choices they make during the game. Like, oh, thanks for doing that. Really appreciate that. Last week, thanks for never throwing the ball deep with Justin Herbert, who has a fucking rocket.

What are you doing? It's ridiculous. I got to tell you, we kind of were worried about this before the start of the season. We liked the coaching change, the staff change, but we had major question marks about Joe Lombardi.

They're coming out utilizing too much of the principles from the Saints, which was the short passing attack, when they have one of the most talented arm quarterbacks in the NFL right now. You see some of the passes that get tweeted out. Stephen Ruiz tweeted one out. He writes for you guys now with the great pass that he feathered in and layered over the defense last week. I mean, it's absurd what he can do. And yet they're trying to just coach him like he's a rookie, like he's he's fields or somebody that you just want to make sure doesn't make mistakes on early downs.

And then let's deal with whatever comes on third down, make a play for us to keep the six moving like attack aggressively. And we knew this going into the season, and it's been nothing but frustration. If you look at their passing charts, it's just deplorable, quite honestly. Well, how about the Mike Williams thing, where they're like, well, you take out Mike Williams,

and then you ruin the Chargers' offense because they have no deep passing game. It's like, well, I don't understand. Why can't they throw to Mike Williams anyway? Herbert can throw 60 yards downfield. Once a quarter, Mike Williams should just run a straight line and he should just chuck it. Get a pass

interference. I don't know what they're doing. All right, Sharp, we can hear you on Wednesday with the Terminator, Ben Solak. We can hear you on Friday with House, the worst gambler in the world who's actually having a half-decent season. And then on Mondays, too, with Verno. Good to talk to you as always, my friend. I do want to mention two things, if I can, Bill.

Go. A, I hope you guys are listening to this gambling show. Not only are we giving out nuggets and betting ideas and insights, but we're breaking down the games and the strategies that the coaches are going to be using, identifying mismatches and things that they can take advantage of each week. And it's a lot of fun. And there's three shows a week. So the ringer gambling show, please check that out.

And then over at sharp football analysis, I just got to mention this bill. This is our free week. Everything is free up on football analysis.com. So you want all of our articles that are usually behind a paywall. You want all the betting picks. There's going to be a couple of totals this week that have a tremendous track record historically. Just go to shortfootballanalysis.com and there's a banner at the top and you can sign up. Awesome. Good to see you as always. Thanks for having me. All right. My buddy Gus Ramsey is here. We've been friends for

four full decades at this point. One of the many things that bonded us in the 80s was Rocky IV. Rocky IV has been re-released as a director's cut by 75-year-old Sly Stallone. And I have not seen it. I don't want to see it.

I'm afraid to see it. Gus, of course, immediately went to the theater and saw it. And he's going to now try to convince me to see the director's cut. And we have not talked about this. There's been no planning. There's no outline. I just, this is going to be like

if he called me on the phone and tried to talk me into this. All right, talk me into it, Gus. Well, first and foremost, you're alvester sloan season ticket holder you have probably seen all the expendables you're probably seeing all the escape plans right so uh i was looking at his page there's probably a few movies on there that i i haven't seen that you've probably seen so fair let's start with just what's the reticence to see it if i have if i have a picasso if i have the best picasso painting in my living room and then somebody says hey picasso he took another crack at it he added some colors it's different he reinvented it right you know like the tail end of his life. I'm still good with my

original Picasso. That's how I feel about Rocky IV. All its flaws are part of what makes it great for me. The fact that Adrian just shows back up in Russia and it's never really addressed. They cement it in 90 seconds and then they move on, even though terrible wife performance by her. But now in the director's cut, apparently there's a scene where they actually talk it out. I don't know if I wanted more illumination on the Rocky Adrian marriage and Rocky four, because that's one of the things I love complaining about. You're taking away things I complained about.

What if Picasso came to you and said, but I can make that better. He said it in Spanish. Because if you watch the documentary on YouTube of Stallone going through the process of the recut, he sees the flaws in the film and they bother him. You and I have talked for 36 years about where does the British announcer randomly come from for the fight in Russia? And in the documentary, someone says

that to Stallone. He says, I have no idea. I don't know if they were looping that day and I wasn't around. He claims amnesia. He has no idea why that voice is in there, so he takes it out. The scene where Rocky and Adrian are talking on the staircase.

In the original... Wait a second. Are you talking about the You can't win! Yes, that scene. The way it's originally cut, as soon as she says that, Rocky responds. Stallone put more space in there

so that he can react to it without saying anything first before he looks at her and says, Adrian always tells the truth. So it's a more hurtful moment for Rocky because there's that pause of, my wife just said that to me. Wait, he figured out a way for me to like Adrian less in this movie? Yeah, potentially. Oh, that's amazing. And then in the scene after he talks to his son and tells him he's not afraid, but sometimes you know it hurts so much you want to quit but the part of you that tells you not to quit that's that's a

good part too and he gets up to leave and the next thing we know he's getting in the car the chauffeur is waiting for him and adrian's just standing at the window yeah well now he sees her in the hallway and she tries to convince him not to go oh Oh. And she cries. And so now when we look up and see her standing at the window, it's not they're mad at each other. It's this is a really difficult separation moment for the both of them. I always looked at that like she's pissed at him. Me too. Staring out that window.

But with that scene in there, that's not the case anymore. There's an entire scene of Rocky trying to convince the Boxing Commission to let him fight Drago for the title. And they're not having it, basically because they don't want another death on their hands. Hmm.

That sounds like a good keeper. Yeah, I mean, there's stuff in there. I felt 90% of the things he did actually made it better. There's some stuff during the fight scene at the end that I could have did without. Like added fight stuff? Yeah, and some cutaways. I will say somehow the Living in America scene is even better because there are more cutaways of Drago reacting to it

and the Dolph Lundgren's comedic touches there cannot be understated. Like, he does a great job of basically going, what the fuck is going on? So that was really good. I think there's a little more of the press conference, but all the things you still love about it are in there. I think his goal was, and he says in the documentary in 1985,

everything was an MTV video and even this movie. So I think he tried to make it less of that and much more. Oh, see, so he feels like it was too MTV ish as the years pass. Yeah. But, but see, that's one of the reasons I love the movie because it's like a 90 minute MTV video.

It's belongs to that era. A hundred percent. And I think I, when I texted the reasons I love the movie, because it's like a 90-minute MTV video. It belongs to that era. 100%. And I think when I texted you when I was watching it, I just said, as soon as it started, I compartmentalized it as a different experience. I didn't, like, the original will always be the original. It's the original Coke. Like, I'm never going to stray away from that. Although, you know, this isn't new Coke. It's just a different way to look at it.

And I think as a lifelong Stallone person, you kind of owe it to the artist to say, I'm willing to see what you see. So he chose to make this instead of an MTV-era artifact to try to reinvent this as more of an actual movie that didn't necessarily have to take place in 1985. Correct.

I think it's just over the years he says he's watched it more than you and I have combined, which is probably saying something. I don't think that's true. Maybe not. John Anderson texted me the other day, how many times do you legitimately think you've watched it? And I said, probably 40 to 50

because there's got to be, on average, slightly over once a year. 40 to 50. I would say 60 to 65. Wouldn't you say like one and a half times a year would be the average? There's probably a stretch there where maybe I went a year or two without seeing it,

but in its entirety. What about in 1987? Probably good for 10 times just that year. That's true. Yeah, that's true. I think that juices the averages. I wonder how much of it has to do with the Creed movies

and him seeing the continuation of the Apollo story and making him want to look back. He admits, he says he wishes he hadn't killed Apollo off. He thought it would be more powerful if you saw Apollo, you know, like a wheelchair or something like that. Someone who really suffered at the hands of Drago, but didn't die. And so maybe the Creed movies made him look back at the Apollo story in that way. He also makes the Apollo-Drago fight much more a representation of Apollo putting up a fight.

That fight scene lasts longer. Apollo actually lands punches. And the throw the damn towel goes directly from Duke saying it to the towel dropping on the floor. Whereas before there was enough of a pause in there where you felt like Rocky was really thinking about it. Like he choked. Right. Like he choked, but this is much more in real time. Throw the damn towel. Apollo's down. There's nothing he could have done about it. Did he add any more weight to the wheelbarrow scene or the wheel plow scene in the log cabin?

Did he add CGI, like five more people? No, I was hoping maybe the chess scene with Duke and the Russian would play out more. You know what he did? I think he got rid of the part where the Russian knocked over all the pieces and discussed. Oh, wow. I think Duke says, checkmate.

And the next thing we know, he's looking upstairs to go talk to Rocky. I'm glad there was no more to that speech. Yeah. The Duke speech is perfect. Yeah. Send that to the movie museum. So stuff he took out, he took out the robot. The robot's gone?

The robot is completely gone. That's ridiculous. That's like the most unintentionally funny part of the entire movie. How did they cut that? I think that's why he hates it. There's a few more young lines in there, I think, during the press conference. There's a longer scene. Actually, I believe a completely new scene

where Apollo and Rocky are talking about who should fight Drago and Rocky basically is like I don't want to not yet and Apollo's like well then I should do it because we need to stand up to these people it's like at Rocky's house and they're

outside and Apollo's holding a football and that was a whole new scene. Any Brigitte Nielsen ads or cuts? That's a weird one considering they dated. Yeah, no, I don't think so. There's a little bit more

of the Russian head guy when he's talking about the training and all that. Oh, that guy. Yeah, there might have been a line or two, but nothing substantial. You know, we did Cobra on the rewatchables recently, and I had no idea the backstory where the

movie was like 35 minutes longer and then Top Gun was coming out the week before and Stallone got freaked out that Cobra was going to get killed by Top Gun. And like the 11th hour cut 25 to 30 minutes out of Cobra so that it could play in more theaters. Oh, wow.

So it could be like an hour 35 instead of two hours. So they could turn around one more showing. So it would make more money. And that's why that movie is so incoherent. And we'd always said with Cobra, it just feels like there's scenes missing what's going on. And then it turns out, yeah, there's scenes missing because they hastily edited 30 minutes out. I wonder if he's going to do Cobra next. Cause Cobra actually feels like there's more there. I wouldn't touch Rocky IV. Now you're making me want to watch it. I think I'm like 80% now I'm going to end up getting this, but Cobra I'd be fired up for. Well, I wonder if something similar happened because Rocky IV came out, I want to say Thanksgiving of 85. Yeah.

So there are probably some other powerhouse movies coming out at that time. Maybe he chopped it. Maybe he felt some of that. Some of that was probably the studio also. I mean, in general, when you watch the documentary, you get the impression that he just didn't care for a lot of decisions that other people made on behalf of the movie.

Well, the British announcer anecdote is crazy. I'll tell you this. Hey, Sly, if you're listening, stay away from Rocky III. That movie's perfect. It's one of the 10 greatest movies of all time. And it needs no adding or taking away. It just doesn't. Well, sadly, there is no more Warner Wolf.

I was hoping that Warner might get a few more lines. Oh, for Rocky IV. Yeah. No, he still just can't get over the size of the Russian. That's pretty much all Warner has, unfortunately. I would like to, if it's okay, I would like to paraphrase Sly in an effort to get you to that last 20%

to watch this play. Yeah. I believe you should watch it. But it doesn't matter what I believe because you're the one that's got to carry that fear around inside you, afraid that it's going to ruin your original, that there will be fewer gear shifts

during No Easy Way Out, that the Russians don't embrace Rocky in the end. Well, none of it's true, but it doesn't matter if I tell you. It doesn't matter because you're the one that's got to settle it. Get rid of it, because when all the smoke is cleared and everyone is through watching it for themselves, it's just going to be you. And you can't live like that, because it's going to bother you for the rest of your life. Look at what it's doing to you now. Cousin Sal thinks you should watch it. So do I.

You're going to want to watch it for the right reasons. Not for the guilt over Rocky V. Not for your followers. Not for The Ringer. Not for the podcast or me. But for you. Just you. Just you alone.

That's great. Is it on demand yet? I don't know if I'm going to a theater for this, but I'll be able to rent it, right? Yeah, I watched it on Apple TV. Oh, I'm definitely getting this then. God damn, why did you do this to me? I was so happy with just my original Rocky IV experience.

I didn't need to add to my Rocky IV experience. You know what I'm wondering is, three years from now, does this version air on USA and all the channels that show it ad nauseum? I don't think so. I think the original will be the one that plays in perpetuity. So you get this, you try it, you go, all right, that was interesting. I got it.

But I don't know that this is something you go back and watch again. It does tap into this. Obviously, we have a podcast called The Rewatchables. These rewatchable movies that you see so many times, then when you find out there's deleted scenes on YouTube or something,

and it's so fascinating to see those. You're like, oh my God, there's two more minutes of this movie? And usually they're disappointing for the most part. But in this case, it sounds like there's some real stuff that needed to be in the movie.

Yeah, but you also watch those deleted scenes out of context. True. So when you watch this in its entirety, you go, oh, this makes sense. Oh, I get why he said that now. Oh, I understand what she was feeling now. So I think it's just

kind of a different experience. And I think, like I said, I think it's worth watching one time. But I don't know that you go back and watch it again. But, you know, for my 60th birthday, you can send me the complete DVD set and I'll probably be part of it. They didn't change any of the gear shifts, right? Just tell me that. All the gear shifts are there.

He still has 37 gear shifts? Yeah. I think he took out a few of the very tight shots of his eyes. There's a couple in there. But in the documentary, he was talking about how that was just nothing but pure vanity. He just wanted to see himself looking so good up nice and close. And Cobra's like that too. There's just scenes where he just wants to wear sunglasses and have a matchstick in his mouth and not do anything.

Did he take out the stuff when Rocky isn't looking at the road as he's going 85 miles an hour and he's just looking at the side? That's still in there? There's no other cars on the street. He drives through that tunnel all by himself. All right. I'm going to watch it. I'll report back.

I look forward to it. Do you want to say goodbye to Noah Syndergaard before we go or no? Well, I, I figured if nothing else, he's just going to be closer to Trevor Bauer. Right. So that's a good thing.

What are the Mets going to do this? I guess there's going to be no season. So it doesn't matter. No, I think there'll be a season. I just think we'll, we'll have to wait. No, I think spring training be a season. I just think we'll have to wait. I think spring training actually will start on time.

I think this is one of those. Oh, you're optimistic, Gus. Yeah. I think that, you know, December 2nd, I think that gives them enough time. Maybe the abbreviated spring training.

But, I think that's probably the reason why teams are taking care of some of this business now. But I think there'll be a season. I would have brought Eduardo Rodriguez back

for $14 million a year if it were me. Really? What do I know? I think $14 million a year for a starter who's above average, at least statistically. I'm not against that. We got a draft pick out of it, so I guess that's what they were thinking about.

They figured they could send that money somewhere else. Was it five years? It was five years, but it was only $14 million a year. Yeah, I don't know. Barrios getting seven years to me, I'm always a little sketchy about giving pictures. What's your Max Scherzer? Me too.

Couldn't agree more. Thanks to your Broncos for losing me a bunch of money last week, and I appreciate that too. Well, we're a 500 team that plays like a 500 team. Good to see you as always. Thanks for the report. My pleasure. All right. That's it for the podcast. It was produced by Kyle Creighton.

Thanks to House and to Verno and to Sharp and to my buddy Gus. Don't forget about Music Box, 8 p.m. HBO. First of five films in a row on Thursdays. Jagged. It's about Alanis Morissette, directed by Alison Klayman. Check it out. And I will see you on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.