The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Comeback Celtics and a Best 'Succession' Character Draft With Rob Mahoney, Van Lathan, and Charles Holmes

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to discuss the Celtics' Game 5 win over the Heat to bring the series to 3-2, and they look ahead to Game 6 (2:39). Then, Bill talks with Van Lathan and Charles Holmes of 'The Midnight Boys' to discuss the looming end of HBO's 'Succession' (55:24) before participating in The Ringer's first 'Succession' character draft (1:20:13). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Van Lathan, and Charles Holmes Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, the Celtics broke my brain, a deep dive on succession. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the

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for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network on Sunday night on the Prestige TV podcast right after the episode ends. Me and Sean Fennessy,

sadly, I don't think we're going to have Joanna Robinson because she's away, but it's going to be at least me and Sean. We're going to be breaking down the final episode. We're going to tape it as fast as we can after that airs on HBO and get it up on the Prestige TV podcast as soon as we possibly can. And who knows, Joanna might even join us. She's on vacation, but you can't count her out. So stay tuned for that. I'm going to have a new

podcast here on Sunday as well. Probably putting that up a little earlier in the afternoon. So stay tuned for that. Please check out TheRinger.com. If you like the show Succession, which we're about to talk about, we did a lot of great Succession content this week on TheRinger.com, including the best Succession episodes of all time,

a bunch of stuff about sticking the landing and series finales. And Cousin Greg features. If you like succession, go check out TheWinger.com. Coming up on this podcast, Rob Mahoney and I talk about game five, Celtics heat, which was a shockingly tense 13-point win where the Celtics were up 20 most of the time.

Can the Celtics do this? Can they actually come back from 3-0? We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk a little Jokic-Murray as well because we didn't talk about Jamal Murray enough in the last podcast. And then Van Lathan and Charles Holmes join us from the Ringerverse podcast.

Van's been on this podcast many times. And we're going to do a succession character draft. We are going to do a draft, snake fashion, of the best succession characters. And it got heated. We yelled at each other. We got to make fun of Van because he had a classic Detroit picking a running back with the 12th pick mistake early.

But it was really fun. And we got to talk about the show and where we think it's going to go and where we think it's going to end on Sunday night. So there you go. That's the podcast first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is almost 8 o'clock p.m. Pacific time.

Rob Mahoney is here from the ringer. Rob, the Celtics are trying to kill me. What have they done now? This rollercoaster ride. What is happening? They have played 18 playoff games. This is probably the most optimistic I've felt since game two of the Atlanta series. And I know I shouldn't feel optimistic.

And I don't deep down feel optimistic. But that was a second good game in a row. Andrew Callahan, who is a Patriots beat reporter for the Boston Herald tweeted, the Celtics have been turning in their homework at the last minute of playoffs and hit their procrastinating peak right before the finals. I've never identified with a team more in my life. Is that just summing up there? It's incredibly relatable. I mean, genuinely, especially for a team that we know empirically can be amazing defensively. It's just wild that it takes them this long in some of these games and some of these series to really start turning it up. And guess what? When the Celtics play defense, it turns out they're actually pretty

good. Right. And when they hit 40% of their threes and they pressured defenders, that helps. And they chased the ball. It also, let's be fair, really helps that Miami is banged up and did not have game Vinson for this game. And Kyle Lowry, who I'm sure will look great in game six, looked like he was 55 years old tonight and couldn't do anything. And the Celtics, I'd been waiting for them to do this. And start doing it last game and then this game. They were pressure and ball handlers trying to make it hard for Miami to get in their offense. Butler had another like, eh, game,

but it felt like in the second half, they were in that mode of, we might have to save you for Saturday night, be patient. But for the most part, it was the Celtics defense and the threes. And I want to talk about Tatum a little bit, but just fundamentally when you watch this, it just seems like the Celtics have more talent. Being down 3-2 in this series, when you just look at the talent disparity, Rob, it's still not great, but at least they're alive.

Yeah. I mean, there's the version of being the more talented team where you take that as an excuse to kind of play back, play a little easier, pick your spots, like think that you can manipulate and control the game. And then there's the version of having a talent advantage when you're sicking on every disadvantage that the other team has, every deficit and talent that they have. And that's to your point about Gabe Vinson and really the lack of ball handlers. I mean, not only is Gabe Vinson out of this game, you know, Tyler Hero is watching sideline in some very elegant pajamas.

It brings me no joy that Kyle Lowry had such an awful game, but really his worst game of the playoffs. He's been really solid for Miami in a majority of these contests, but just didn't have it, kept losing control of the ball. And it's also just a really smart way

to put pressure on Bam in a game where he knows he has to be aggressive and score. Because that's ultimately the issue with Bam who had a great season, had a really good playoffs, but the more that you need him to be that guy, a go-to-scorer type player, the more uncomfortable

his scoring attempts are going to become. And we saw him trying to face up Al Horford in the post. That is not going to be his game. He's a guy you want generating offense in the flow of what you do. Not being discreet from it and isolating and dumping

the ball down to him on the block. Because when he does that, you already see he starts to put the ball on the floor. He doesn't trust his positioning. He puts himself in vulnerable positions where now he's turning the ball over too. This is probably your second or third most important creator with the roster you have now.'s turning the ball over too. And this is probably your second or third most important creator with the roster you have now.

And Miami just cannot sustain that way. They have to be just dramatically more careful with how they're handling it. Would you say he's codependent offensively? Like he needs another creator? Because I always feel like he's at his best when he's setting a pick for somebody and then he's kind of popping

at the top of the foul line or he's getting a switch and somebody's off.'s kind of popping at the top of the foul line or he's getting a switch and somebody's off. But if you're just going to dump the bottom and tell him to create offense, I think it gets a little dicier for him. Yeah, he's a much better scorer than someone like Draymond. And we saw

huge evolution in his mid-range game in particular over the course of this year. But ultimately, you're talking about the same thing, which is a guy who takes an advantage and builds on it. Sprays out to shooters, can work handoffs, as you're saying, plays off another star in a way that can be really incredible. And maybe that's

ultimately where we should start. As you mentioned, Jimmy, I don't mean this in a shock jock reactionary way, but what is going on with Jimmy Butler? Because he's looked tentative over these last two games now in a way he never did against Milwaukee. He's putting that in his living room now.

You just said that. Rob Mahoney, the ringer. That's it. It's going on a whiteboard. You just did it. You angered Jimmy Butler. That's all I'm looking to do in these playoffs. Everyone is mad about something. I want to be on somebody's shit list, on somebody's bulletin board. Maybe Jimmy will be the guy who gets us there.

He's played a lot of minutes and he's had an incredibly big responsibility. The Celtics are also making good adjustments and playing the right players in the series now. I could not have been more critical of our guy

Joe Maz in the first three games. I think he did a pretty good job in three games. I think he did a pretty good job in game four. I thought he did a really good job this game. Brogdon has a tendon injury. I think they finally might have cut bait with that one because you could tell he was shooting it. It almost looked like a Michael K. Goldcrest type of three. One of the things I'm wondering is, I'm not sure they can play Pritchard in Miami because Butler's going to hunt them unless Butler's not on the court. So do they go Sam Hauser? Did they just cut the rotation and just play seven guys? That's it. And have either

smarter white out there at all times. Um, what's the move going to be? Because, you know, I wasn't surprised by it. And I, these coast bias guys were asking me, what do I think was going to happen? I was like, I think we win by 15. Or I could also see us losing by three. And I think those are the two outcomes. And if that game got close near the end, you can see it. Boston starts walking it up.

Crowd gets quiet. Even though they're up 15, 16, that's not their style. It's not that walk it up slow, get into the offense offensive eight seconds left. They're not good at protecting leads. With that said, wait,

who has had a couple months last playoffs. He was out. He was private pile. He private piled it for like three games where it's like, wow, was he going to be able to stay in the NBA? Then he came kind of roaring back. Then he fell apart again.

This playoffs. Awesome. The beginning of the Atlanta series got a little teetery in the Philly series. And now he's the second best player on the team. And this was a borderline Derek White game tonight by him. What do you mean a borderline Derek White game? Because I think there's been other Derek White games where he's done this. Oh, this is borderline the Derek White game. Yeah, I don't think this was the Derek White game. I think it was a borderline Derek White game.

It was a Derek White game. A Derek White game. I mean, he was sensational, right? I mean, if he plays this well, you can really afford to trim up your rotation a little bit and not have to worry about so much reserve guard play. I mean, you can stretch him as far as he's willing to go. I think where things get dicey is if you do

ultimately end up cutting the Brogdon spot and the Pritchard minutes wholesale, now you're asking Marcus Smart to be a little bit more of a point guard, which is not really his strongest suit in this particular matchup. Not to say in general, also not quite his strongest suit. And that's where the Celtics could show

a little bit of limitation in the way Miami has with their ball handling, with their playmaking. We've seen it before plenty of times. So they do need that. I think what gives them confidence, or at least what should, is the longer the series has gone on, the more apparent it is that Jason Tatum can get

almost anywhere he wants to go against the variety of looks that the Heat are throwing at him. He just looks incredibly comfortable with all of the coverages he's seeing now. Yeah, they're getting... The zone is one of those things. It's a gimmick that works for a game or two or three, but now it's five games of looking

at it. The Celtics don't seem completely spooked by it anymore, so that's a bonus. They're kind of spooked, though. Not like they were before. What the hell is this? How many guys are out here? What do we do? This radical new invention that we've never seen or heard of before. Well, the other thing that's really helped is Miami won in games three, just made crazy shots. Like shit happens, but they made a bunch of threes at a high percentage and a lot of them were contested.

I forget, I saw somebody had a stat of most contested threes with a high shooting percentage. That was floating around Twitter and it was like Miami in game one and game three was historically ridiculous at the shot quality versus the shots actually going in. So they cooled

off a little bit on that front. If you're looking at this from a Miami standpoint, you're up 3-0 and the Celtics were dead. And I try not to get too, people are going to laugh when they hear this, I try not to get too overreactive with my teams. I try to be at least somewhat rational. The Celtics were dead after game three.

It looked like they quit. It looked like they rolled over. It looked like they had broken for the season. And if you had told me what was more likely in game four, which a bunch of people asked me, I would have said 80% they roll over, 20% maybe they hit some threes and find something and who the hell knows.

Now they're alive. And now I think they understand. Tatum is the best player in this series, other than Jimmy. And we can debate 1A, 1B with those two guys. Defensively, better. More options, more

size. Their top seven is just deeper. And there's some things they stumbled into and the coaching advantage, which I think Spoh had the first couple of games. Now, you know, there's been some adjustments. I'm sure Joe Maz got a little help. Did you see he was calling timeouts a little bit more than that? There's a couple of like run stopping timeouts.

He called a timeout with 31 seconds left in the third quarter to set up a good shot to put the Celts up 20 do you think he's doing them for you at this point like is it is it a love letter an olive branch to you specifically that he's calling these timeouts I don't know I would have called the timeout with 31 seconds left but it worked but it reminded me of the Seinfeld when Costanza can't see, but then he can spot a dime on the floor. And Seinfeld's like, you're eating onions, you're spotting dimes. I don't know what to think anymore. And Joe Maz went from not calling any timeouts to now using these key timeouts right at the end of the third quarter. I don't want to say he's gotten better, but I feel a little better

about what I've seen strategy-wise. Is that fair? Absolutely. Look, ultimately, the reason why we dwell on that story is because, to your point, about the advantages the Celtics have, the options that they have ahead of them,

more so, by far, than what Miami has to work with. That's why we dwell on coaching. If you have all the answers, you're expected to not be down 0-3 in a series like this. And a lot of that responsibility is on the players too.

A lot of it, you know, we can talk about Jason Tatum in the same capacity. A guy who can do a little bit of everything, who can navigate the floor in so many ways, he has to be better

in those reads early in the series too. But he's found his way and Joe has found his way. And the Celtics ultimately have put themselves in a nice position to at least fight it too. But he's found his way and Joe has found his way. And the Celtics ultimately have put themselves in a nice position to at least fight it out. But to your point

that they were dead after three games, I mean, they might still roll over in game six. Do you even trust them to show up at this point? I'll answer that after this break. Make a fast break to FanDuel during the NBA playoffs. Right now, new customers get a no-sweat first bet up to $1,000.

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Maryland, 877-8 hope and why, or text hope and why in New York, 800-522-4700 Wyoming or 1800gamber.net in West Virginia. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey.

And it's on Prime. All season long, watch Prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. So I don't know what happened to me in this series from a Celtics fan standpoint. But when Jeter and A-Rod were there in game four, you know, you start thinking, all right, what are the mechanics of a comeback? If we can get this one, now game five's home.

Gabe Vincent rolled his ankle. It didn't look good. Struis looks like he wasn't moving around that well. Some of the coaching stuff that they were doing, the Celtics were starting to solve it. And you think, all right, well, maybe they can win game five. I think game six is going to be

an absolute beast for this team because Miami's going to ratchet up. They're going to make it way more physical. Jimmy's going to try to assert his alpha manhood all over the game in all these different ways. They're probably going to shoot way more threes. Rob, they only shot 23 threes tonight.

You're Miami. That needs to be up higher. Yeah, true. Boston chased them off the line really effectively. So part of that is there. But ultimately, Miami made nine threes. I think Boston had seven in the first quarter. The margin just can't be that.

You're just going to have to fire away no matter if you have to take a step back if you're Miami from the three-point line to get clearance. In particular, guys like Caleb Martin who've been hitting, we've seen him. He's pretty choosy sometimes in the shots that he wants to take. He wants to keep the offense moving, I think implicitly.

He might just have to force it. Some of these other shooters might have to force it. Kyle Lowry might have to be a little bit more perimeter-oriented, driving a little bit less. And that means Jimmy handling the ball much, much more than he did in this game. And the Celtics are throwing size or Grant Williams at Jimmy now. There's no other scenario. And if he ends up getting switched on a guard,

they'll send somebody over and try to make him get rid of the ball. On the flip side, I want to talk about Tatum because he's 25 years old. I've kept saying that all playoffs and just big picture. I just don't think he's the player he's going to be two years from now. I have seen some stuff in these playoffs in particular that make me pretty optimistic. He still has a chance to go up a level. We talked about it a little on Tuesday's pod, but do you feel any different about Tatum

than you did six weeks ago? I mean, we've learned a lot, right? Even just from things like Game 7 in Philly, things like some of his early struggles in this series. It wasn't awful, but just had some spots of turnovers even at certain times, some spaces defensively

where he didn't seem to be making an impact on the game, honestly. Like, when he was off the ball, was just kind of there, was kind of floating around. And that was a dramatic difference team-wide was

the Celtics were finding a way to crowd passing lanes, to crowd driving lanes, to get a hand, to get a bump, to do all the things you would need to knock Miami off balance.

I think Tatum was part of that as much as anybody. But offensively, just his problem-solving. We're seeing him evolve a little bit. The passing was fantastic. Oh my God. I mean, just, I encourage anyone, whether you watch this game or not,

about halfway through the first quarter, Tatum catches the ball around the elbow on a roll, basically, from Jalen Brown, who way overthrew it. He does a one-handed touch pass redirect to I think Al Horford in the corner. It's a wildly advanced and sophisticated play to make in contact in that moment on the move.

We don't see that kind of thing from him all the time, but we did see a lot of plays in this where he's starting to set up the action a little bit more. I think it's right to be frustrated with action a little bit more. I mean, I think it's right to be frustrated with the Celtics in all the ways we've described. If they are going to be the procrastinators who are turning in their homework at the last minute, they have

every answer. Jason Tatum has every tool. Man, zone, whatever the Heat are running, they should be able to break this stuff down. And I thought Tatum did a really spectacular job of just parsing what was in front of him in a way that sometimes the Heat make really difficult.

Like they will put doubt into your head as to like, what is this coverage? Is this a zone press? How are they going to guard this pick and roll? Like they mix it up enough to put a little bit of doubt

in your head. And we're seeing Tatum sort through some of that doubt. Yeah, today, you know, 21, 8 and 11. 8 for 16. Yeah. Today, you know, 21, eight and 11, eight for 16, wasn't going nuts from three, but there was a sophistication to what he was doing.

And, you know, I, if he's learned anything, these playoffs, especially a, they follow his lead. They just do.

He's the best guy in the team. And he came out tonight and had real energy and was attacking. He had a couple of shots early, but his defense, you can kind of tell pretty early with him, whether he's locked in or not. And maybe the light bulb went off with him in game four, especially of like, if they're going to follow me or we're going to go right into the ocean here. So that was one thing. The other thing is the rebounding with him. He's over 10 a game in the playoffs. You know, I have that thing.

I tweeted it today. I did all the homework for the 42 club. That was something I had. The first time I did it was in 2006. It was when Nowitzki was ascending and ended up making the finals. And I was like, I wonder if there's some way to figure

out if something's happening that seems a little bit special. And I did all these things and I ended up with the number 42 for points, rebounds, and assists combined in a playoff series. And the reason I ended up at 42 is it was the best cutoff for Carl Malone because I was trying to figure out how can I have a list? So I was doing the classic statistical thing where it's like, I kind of want to get to the result that I want, but I also want to come up with something cool. And it was like, he had a bunch of 41s and I was like, what if it's 42? And then the list with 42 got really good. And it was just the elite of the elite. I mentioned this because first of all, Jokic is at 53.5 right now, which is nuts. Like this, this is,

there's only like a couple of guys. It's basically him, LeBron and like Wilt, I think have ever been in that territory, but Tatum's in there. Uh, he's, he was 43.6 at the end of this game. He's still over 43, but this is, you're talking all the best players in the history of the league. There's no, no, literally no gimme's in the 42 club. The shakiest guy out of the guys who haven't made the finals, who played at least 13 games, was Blake Griffin in 2015. Just from a

historical standpoint, Blake Griffin was fucking awesome in 2015. MVP candidate in 2015. Yeah, he was one of the best five players in the league, so I'm okay with that. If you go to guys who've made the finals, it's everybody. Even the guys who only did it once. Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Dave Cowens, Magic,

Charles Barkley, Kobe, Iverson, Duncan, Kawhi, Giannis Jokic. Now, the stats are a little different now because of the pace and things like that. But the point is, I do think he's that talented. It's not crazy for him to be on lists like that. And I don't think he's the guy who he's supposed to be. The reason I bring this up,

the best chance, if you're getting excited about the Celtics coming back from three Oh, and the Celtics having a chance to next round, it's like that Tatum went up another level. And we've at least seen it for the first two games, right? Or for the first two wins. Yeah,

definitely. So, definitely so. I mean, I don't want to gloss over just the incredible numerology display you just went through, though. Are you walking around seeing fours and twos everywhere now? Are they just, like, popping off of walls into your life? It's a great one. You're going to come on the next pod

with 42 scrawled all over your face? I can't wait. But no, Tatum has evolved. Brown has settled into, I thought this might have been his best game of the series just in terms of how calm Jalen Brown played. Was absorbing contact, was attacking inside, knocked down a couple shots,

which obviously doesn't hurt given where he's been throughout some of this series. But Tatum is the big reason. When he is playing this comfortably. And I think you read off his stat line and it's not going to pop in the way that his game seven stat line popped. But he didn't press.

He played 41 minutes. I don't think he pressed a single time other than one just very poorly advised behind the back full court pass. He attempted toward the end of this game. Short of that, was in full control against a really good opponent, against an opponent that has had his

number in some of these games and made it really difficult for his offense in some of these games. There's a lot of sophistication to that kind of approach in ways that benefits you know, it's going to come down to on some level, guys like Marcus Smart and Derek White and all these supporting players hitting their open threes and they hit all

those shots. But Tatum is a lot of the reason they have those open shots. And I think he's getting them even better looks now than the Celtics were generating at the start of the series. Yeah. Even going back to last year, I think he's gone up a level. From that standpoint, it's just the intensity piece. Well, let me ask you, because you're an innocent bystander here. Do you think he has the talent to be the best player in the league? Yes. I'm not saying right now. I'm just saying

in the next four years, do you think the talent is there? I think he has the talent for it. Even when you consider where he is right now, I think, you know, we go through this exercise all the time for the rankings for the ringer. Like, where does Jason Tatum fall among these other elite players? Most pessimistically,

you would say, eight? Like, the eighth best player in the league currently? And at his age, to be already that good with his body type, knowing that he's only going to get physically stronger, he's only going to be able to attack even more in that way. You're already seeing in games like this, when he wants to get downhill and has it in his head

that that is how I'm going to attack this matchup coming out of the gate. He's getting all the way to the rim, finishing really strong. To have that and the mid-range potential, the floater potential, the three can be incredibly deadly some nights. But even when he doesn't make, he's still pretty good, pretty effective with the long ball. A guy like that who's also a two-way player, that can be the best player in the league. I don't think there's any doubt about that, but with him, he doesn't

have that one overwhelming quality that guys like Durant have, the guys like Giannis have, the guys like LeBron have. So he has to be more tactical to get there. He has to absolutely master the mental game, the matchup game,

understanding what he can create and when and how. And that's ultimately going to be his key to getting that far. Yeah, there was one time today where they posted him up. I think it was in the third quarter because he had a little seismic match on somebody and the Heat completely overreacted to it

and sent a double. To me, that's like the last piece with him. We talked about a little on Tuesday's pod, but, um, I just feel like as I think of him 25, 26, 27, 28. Yeah. And he starts adding stuff. Right. And that's, that's all the great guys add stuff every summer. And that's going to be the piece when he's around the low block with some size spinning both ways, shooting a little turnaround over people. I think that'll be the next thing for him. It might be too early for him. And this is, you know, this is a team that could lose by 20 on Saturday night.

I'm fully prepared for it, right? They could just suck some bad shots, throw, you know, they're one for 10 from three. Jalen Brown's dribbling into three guys. All of a sudden they're down 10. Jimmy's pointing at people. That's the thing with the Celtics season. I don't know what to trust.

I don't know what to believe. I'm pretty worn down, Rob. I'm worn down mentally. It sounds like it. I just can't. It's kind of like having kids. When you have a kid and you have a great day, like when you have like a three-year-old

and they have a great day, and then the next day they took off their diaper and just whipped it across the room. And you're like, what happened? We had such a good day yesterday. It's kind of like what it's like to be a Celtics fan in the spring. I'm ready to see whatever the whipping the diaper

across the room equivalent is for Boston on Saturday. I think it's going to be a hell of a thing to watch one way or another. But look, I fear for your mental health. It's going to be okay one way or the other. I didn't think it would matter this much. But when I hit 50, I was like, sports won't matter this much. If you're Miami, I think the one thing

you probably stumbled into was you got these really good Highsmith minutes. I've liked Highsmith all season. He's one of those guys, if there was a... why doesn't that guy play more all star team I feel like he would be at least in the top six he's very comfortable

he was a guy who scored a shit load in college he was like one of those div 2 fill it up guys he's pretty comfortable on defense he can switch on people and he doesn't seem scared and I wonder do we see way more of him in game six? I probably think we do.

Right. I think you definitely could. I mean, just by the fact that he started the second half of this game is a pretty good indicator of that. You know, you could see him either plugging in for some of those Kevin love minutes and giving a kind of a different look overall for Miami or just over the

course of the game, absorbing some of that kind of workload as they go. But they're going to need, whether it's him or someone like him, but he's definitely the best candidate for it for the reasons you just described. Defensively, he is solid enough to hang with some of Boston's wings for some possessions at a time. You don't want him as the primary guy. He can be...

He's a really good and physical on-ball defender, but can get a little loose in concepts in terms of how to direct guys into help and things like that. So there's some things left to be desired. But between that and offensively, you're really relying on him to be just random offense. He's not a reliable knockdown corner shooter, though he did hit some of those shots in this game. He's a guy you want on the cut and on the move.

And again, it's another guy who the more Miami is flowing, the better off he's going to look. And he was drafting off of like some of the attention that Jimmy and Bam were getting in this game to pretty good effect. But you hope you can replicate that. Like the Haywood Highsmith like offensive minutes or offensive production over the course of the season

has not exactly been like game to game steady. I'm not positive he's a real person. I think the Heat might have invented him. Just showed up. He might be AI. Heywood Highsmith might be created in a lab. It's a name that you would create in a 2K game. Without a doubt. Like I've just created a player for myself. His name is Heywood Highsmith. Yep.

He's got like the random generic skills skills of 70 different swing guys. Do you think we see Harrow in game six? They showed him shooting before the game. This was right around the time when they thought he might be ready. Yeah. I mean, a part of me hopes so. I'm not ready for another bucket hat performance from him.

I'm going to leave that aside. So like, I look, I, I, we're, we're, I'm gonna leave that aside. Um, I don't, I don't think so, but they certainly could use him for any capacity that he has to be out there. It's just, it's a really,

he's going to play in the series. You got to put him game six, not game seven. You got to throw him out for a second. Yeah. Right. But, but like a game six is basically a must win game for Miami too.

You know, it's still a really high stakes moment to throw a guy who is coming a must-win game for Miami too. It's still a really high-stakes moment to throw a guy who is coming back from a major injury, is coming back against now a pretty actualized Boston defense that's going to be ready to attack, ready to smell blood in the water. I think that could be a pretty tough situation to throw him in given the circumstances.

Can I throw a Tyler Hero thing? And the only reason I'm throwing it at you is because two different people who don't know each other who are basketball people mentioned it to me. Okay. And the first time it got mentioned, I was like, whoa, that's a hot take. And then the second time,

it kind of made my brain turn a little bit. The theory was that the Heat are actually better off without Hero. Yeah. That because he's not in the lineup, somebody like Caleb Martin was able to play more. They have more of a defensive identity. Jimmy feels like he has more ownership

over the proceedings. It's really his team and his offense. The stuff that he did, especially in Milwaukee, maybe that doesn't happen in the same way if Hero isn't there. And just in general, there's a little Ewing theory factor with Hero, even though he's not a superstar.

But I thought it was an intriguing theory. What are your thoughts? This stuff is definitely in the air right now. There's a lot of this going around, a lot of people wondering out loud. And honestly, I don't think this is a totally new conversation. I think there's always been a thought with Hero that while what he does

is valuable, and he can definitely create offense and run offense and generate looks, and also play second side in a way that's valuable for some good teams, between some of his ebbs and flows offensively and just the target that he is defensively, that maybe Miami would be better off moving off of him at a certain point. You know, that's a tough argument to make after Bam and Kyle Lowry just combined for like 10 turnovers in this game. Right. And Jimmy, like, while he's been exceptional through the majority of these playoffs, didn't quite look like Jimmy or at least didn't perform up to his standards.

It's a tough argument to make. Now you're on his whiteboard again. Just took two shots at Jimmy. Jimmy doesn't like that. No. He doesn't like this Rob Mahoney character. Never going to be allowed in big face ever again. She took two shots at Jimmy. Jimmy doesn't like that. No. He doesn't like this Rob Mahoney character. Never going to be allowed in big face ever again. I just want to say I thought Jimmy was fantastic tonight

and he's been great all series. Wow. Even in both losses, I thought he played with a ton of courage and heart. Just throwing me right under the bus. But look, they could have used him tonight. Flat out, they could have used Tyler Hero tonight. So that's how I feel. I actually just don't agree. I like the theory. It made me think. Flat out, they could have used Tyler Hero tonight. So that's how I feel. I actually, I just don't agree. I like the theory.

It made me think, and yeah, sure, you can hunt them on defense, but you can also hunt Gabe Vincent. Gabe Vincent's like 6'1 1⁄2". Sure. So there's always going to be somebody out there. You know, Duncan Robinson's out there. They play a ton of zone anyway.

I think they miss his shot making in these games, like the game like today when Butler's, you know, four for eight in the third quarter and they kind of need that wildcard, dude. So that's my thing. I mean, they do have Caleb Barton talking about, but the number of Miami possessions that went really deep into the clock where they just generated nothing at all. That's a great dump into Tyler Hero, see if he can get a mid-range pull-up that can help us sustain in this little run. And look, I guess I'm going on Jimmy's board one more time because at the beginning of this game, it looked like Butler and the Heat's overall strategy was like,

let's try to keep Jimmy out of the fray in the first quarter. Let's try to get Lowry generating offenses. Let's try to get Bam generating some offense so that we can shift to Jimmy over the course of it, presumably later in the game. But by the time the turnover started coming, the Heat couldn't score. Boston was scoring every time down the floor.

All of a sudden, you're down 13, 15 points. I think that proposition is different if Hero is part of that formula. And you can lean on him as being part of your secondary creating, like squad for secondary creation, as opposed to just Lowry, who, I mean, just had a bum game.

He's just at a different phase of his career. I think it's tough to count on him. Also, he's played a lot of minutes. Yeah. You know, that heater and other team, that's, they played five against Milwaukee,

six against the Knicks, five here. So he's at the 16 game mark. Yeah. I was talking to somebody about how Tatum, we were talking about how Joe took him out in the top of the fourth quarter and he was out for like three minutes

and Miami started calling back. And it was just like, Jason Tatum's 25, like keep playing. I went to that Denver game and Mike Malone was at some point, it's like, I have Jamal Murray and Nicole Jokic, they're pretty young. I got, I'm just going to ride these guys.

You can't do the same thing with some of these guys in this Miami team. You know, if the Celtics did at least come back and force a game seven and you would say, man, what an unbelievable situation for them. They still have to run over Jimmy Butler in their car, then

put on the brakes, back up, make sure Michael Meyer style, make sure, maybe get out, try to cut his head off. Is he still moving? I just don't think, I just can't think of a worse person to try to come back on three Oh for like, at some point he's just gonna be like, this is just not happening. I'm not putting this on my resume. So my guess is game six will be his game when he brings out everything, when he shows up

with basically every weapon in his arsenal and he's super physical and he's talking shit. But man, if they did come back and they became the first NBA team ever to come back from 3-0 and win, what a bizarre turn for the Jimmy Butler story. Absolutely. Where we're doing six straight weeks of Jimmy Butler, oh my god,

playoff Jimmy, this guy's a fucking legend, and then he blows a 3-0 win in the playoffs, that'd be unbelievable. Do you think he would get covered just from the fact that, as we've said, the Heat are undermanned, they have injuries? It'd still be on his resume, though.

It would be on his resume. And I don't think he should be blamed in that instance if that comes to pass unless he just like absolutely implodes over the next two games which no one would expect to happen. But I think that's what makes this kind of you know, the Heat have a lot of cover. Like if

they lose, they were supposed to lose, right? Like this was not a series they were supposed to win to begin with. And so the fact that they got up to the 3-0 lead gives them some room to operate here. I think the question is, how would you feel if the Celtics forced Game 7 and lose? If that's where we end up, where does that leave you? You mean the scenario that's been in my head this whole week?

It would be the most Celtics-y way for this whole thing to end. It's not like they've been lights out at home. It's not like Jimmy and those guys would be afraid of playing on the road. I think the one thing that makes me feel okay, just about everything, is how hard, how hard it was for Miami to get good shots tonight.

Because I don't think Miami, I don't think they went into this game like, hey, we don't have Gabe Bitson. Let's just, we'll just kind of throw it around and see what happens. Like they were in it. They were trying to win. They were trying to get good shots.

The Celtics threw a ton of length on Jimmy. They ran Miami off the three-point line as much as possible. And Miami didn't, they just don't have that second guy who can, you know, save a possession with seven seconds left. In the Celtics, you know, Jalen Brown, who drives me crazy, but he can, if there's six seconds left, he can figure out some sort of shot to get off. Derek White has that little move when he can go into the paint and

do his little floater shot. Tatum obviously can. Smart can, like, they can do all kinds of weird things to them. He's not afraid to take a shot. It just felt like Miami, the quality of the shots they got were awful. And it was because of Celtics defense. So I don't know whether Celtics unlocked something or what's going on. Rob, I did not expect Saturday night to be looming like this.

Clear the schedule. This is an all-hands-on-deck situation. This is going to be a very important game. High stakes. High stakes? Well, just where we have no idea what to anticipate. You know how many 04 Red Sox threads I'm on right now? There's like 100 of them.

To compare and contrast to 2004 Red Sox threads, it's fucking dark. I'm so sick of the Red Sox comparison already. We've barely even begun this thing, and it's too Boston for me. I can't do it. Well, just wait. If a Game 7 somehow by some miracle happens,

Oh, God. there won't be one or two 2004 Red Sox guys there. I'm just going to predict that. The whole bullpen's going to be out there? What are they going to have? I think all 25. I even think Curtis Laskanik might be there. You might see the whole team.

It's been just far enough away that, you know, it was 19 years ago, there's this whole nostalgia aspect to it. Now, the Miami fans are listening to this going, God damn, if we can just beat them in game six and shove, they can take the 2004 Red Sox and shove it right up their asses. But this is why this is kind of turned into

a nice little rivalry here. Yeah. Right? There was that little late 2000s up till 2012, basically, during that Wade LeBron era where they had some good playoff series. Wade broke Rondo's elbow intentionally.

And then we had, what, 2000 to 2000, three of the last four years, we've seen them go head to head. Plus they had the series against Jimmy. So it feels like there's a lot of DNA going all different ways, but we haven't had like the awesome game yet. No.

We've had some interesting games. We haven't had a game where both teams played really well at the same time. That's the thing. And we even had, I think, I want to say it was a Caleb Martin quote after the Heat went up 3-0. They're like, this was the matchup we wanted.

Right? Like they wanted this chance to go at Boston again to prove some things, to exercise some of their own demons. So this is definitely a rivalry. There's definitely enough animosity to it. There's definitely enough like X and O intrigue. But we have to have that game.

We have to have that game. We have to have that game where both teams are playing relatively well and one of them is just stunted by how overwhelming the other side is. Hopefully we can get that. I think that's kind of the problem with where the Heat are, is if the Heat do fail,

it's going to be them kind of sputtering out, not that they're edged out at the finish line. So you think Joe Mazz saved his job? Let's say they lose game six. Yeah. I think he comes back now. I don't think he could have come back if they had slept. He's already locked it up.

I think he was put in a terrible spot. Yes. I think if they team rolled over in game four, like they rolled over in game three, I don't see how he comes back, but they didn't roll over. Right. I think,

and especially I take that podcast after game four, right after the game, I didn't read some of the quotes. There was some real pride on that, on that team. And just like those guys were like, Hey, we had to figure this out. We really care about each other. We want to try to, you know, go out with some pride. It's like,

okay. Cause we've seen this the other way, right? The one, two, three Cancun version of how these seasons end. And they had the outs. They easily could have been like, cool, we're done. And then things will blow up, and they just, they didn't do it. And it seems like a team that maybe grew into each other a little bit. Before we go, Denver's sitting there going, this is great, we're gonna play Miami. Literally, Jokic is gonna overpower everyone on the team.

We just ripped through the Lakers. We have not lost at home. We're the best player in the world. This looks like a layup. I wonder who they're rooting for. Who do you think they're rooting for in this Miami-Boston series? I think at this point, it's probably Miami.

Again, just because they're going to be a little dinged up by the time they get there. And you just don't have the what-if factor of when Boston is fully engaged and playing well. There's this thing that happens, like the difference a lot of times between how players look at other players

and teams and how we as like media members do. Players, when they're evaluating each other, they're thinking like, what can you theoretically do, right? If I roll into one game with you, can you beat me? Versus I think our instinct is like, what over the average of the season, over a long enough timeline, how does it usually level out? Like, what does your performance look like? What does

your effort look like? Where do you rate out? And those are two very different prospects. And I think ultimately, Boston is the kind of team where if you're thinking about who can beat us in one game, no matter who you are, Boston is that team. They have all of the options, as we've discussed. They have the deeper team. They have the better roster. They have the better high-end talent. Let's even say Tatum and Butler are kind of at a draw.

But other than that, they really have the better supporting cast. And so if you're Denver, I think you don't necessarily want that outcome. That said, I think the Nuggets beat either of these teams. But if you have to pick and choose and you're the Nuggets, I think they would probably prefer to play the Heat. What do you think the line is for the Celtics Heat series?

Who do you think is favored? It's got to still be Miami, right? It's Miami minus 130. It's getting real tight. The Celtics are plus 110. The Celtics were like, I think like plus 850 heading into game four.

I think Miami was like minus 1100. Wow. Something like that. Because everyone saw what we both saw, that Boston looked like a 1-2-3 Cancun team.

Yeah. Now that hasn't happened. Last question, is Jokic the undisputed best guy in the league for you? I think we're there. I think we're there, right? Officially? Yeah, we tried to litigate all that out after,

I think it was after Giannis got eliminated and the Bucks got eliminated. We did a whole pot about it. What Jokic has done has just been indisputable. Systematically, he's deconstructed these teams and these coverages, everything that he creates, the way he's held them defensively. But really just the fact that like,

look, the Lakers were going to be the best defensive test at the Nuggets. We're probably going to see all playoffs. They rolled into that series as the best defensive team in the postseason. Let me tell you, they're not anymore. You know, they stumble down the defensive leaderboard specifically because of all of the pressure

he puts on you to be perfect all the time. And I think we're seeing exactly how that can manifest when he's willing to be a super aggressive scorer in some of these games, when he's playing huge minutes, basically as many minutes as are required in some of these matchups. It's hard to beat a player like that.

I think anyone is going to be hard-pressed to do it this year. That was one of my big reasons for picking them. I picked them before the season, but then before the finals too, because they had home court. And I just felt like the biggest issue of the team was when Jokic was on the floor,

but in the playoffs, everybody plays 40 to 42 minutes. Something not that big of an issue. I think the pleasant surprise has been Murray going to another level like he did. He's been awesome. I probably didn't talk about it enough on the Tuesday podcast. KOC and I just

had like, we basically just covered ourselves in Jokic sauce and just grilled Jokic burgers on the grill and had a whole Jokic dinner. I have questions, but I'm going to leave that. We didn't talk enough about just how unafraid Jamal Murray was. And I actually thought from an officiating standpoint, I just thought he was getting mauled, especially in game three.

And he just fought through it and really went up the ladder for me. I haven't probably between the conference finals and finals, I'll probably make some new list of, all right, who are my favorite best or who are the best players right now? Murray's moved up the ladder for me. I think I, I just think if you're trying to win a title,

that's like exactly the kind of guy you'd want. And if you're just talking about somebody's number two, yes, he might be the best number two right now. You would have said Jalen Brown before, but I just think you would take Murray over Jalen Brown if you're looking at what we just watched over the playoffs. I mean, Devin Booker's pretty good.

You know, like there's a lot of second best players that are pretty exceptional. That's true. I forgot about that. I forgot about that. I was only thinking of teams left in the playoffs, but you're right. If we're going to all teams. Yeah.

Yeah. I would say Kevin Durant's the number two in that team, though. Oh, there you go. But to the larger question, I think the way he and Jokic, their games intersect is as satisfying and productive and as dominant as you'll see any stars in the league. Just as a viewer of the game,

the sheer variety of what they can manifest out of those handoffs and those pick and rolls, the way they can invert them, the way they can pull them all around the floor. That was Denver's late game offense in so many of those games against LA was we're going to clear out the right side of the floor. We're going to run this dribble handoff for this pick and roll. And we're going to get bucket after bucket after bucket in every way imaginable, whether it's for one of them, for an open three, for someone, you know, Aaron Gordon ducking in for a dunk. It's just such like a rich way to play basketball when you have all of that kind of optionality. And so there's, of course, you can pick and choose stars and say like, you know, there are second best players on other teams that are better than Jamal Murray, but there's no two teammates who bring more out of each other,

I don't think at this point, than Murray and Jokic. Like they synergize so well. It's a great point. And I wish I had made it on Tuesday because that's the key thing. It's been Jokic, Jokic, Jokic, right? Jokic is getting this belated victory lap. But there's also this other piece about Jokic with Murray together. Yeah. And how special of a combo they are just with how well they know each other at this point. It's very like, you know, I'm trying to think of other guys that had this, but like Nash and Amari.

Yes. You know, for years where they just, Nash just completely knew Amari. He knew exactly how to use him at all times. And the same thing he had with Dirk. CP and Blake, I don't feel like ever quite got there. Yeah. There was just like one little piece missing

that the Jokic and Murray are just attuned in a really, really special way. I even think Kobe and Gasol, even though Kobe's not exact, you know, Kobe was always kind of a one-man show and used his teammates when he needed them. But I always thought him and Gasol like really developed something in those two title teams.

There was some sort of synchronicity that they had that was really special. You know it when you see it. They definitely have it at anybody right now. Next year, it'll be Victor Wimbadyama and Austin Reeves and San Antonio Spurs. Wow. And San Antonio gives Austin Reeves $98.7 million

to be Wim one big sidekick. Rosella and I were talking about on the phone this morning. I genuinely don't know how the Lakers are going to afford Reeves. Well, they have some protections with the Arenas rule, no? Yeah, but if somebody offers 98.7,

they can match it, which is great. But with these aprons and this stuff, the way this new CBA is, it's really complicated now to just keep your guys. The Celtics are going to be the same issue with Brown and Tatum together. I'm still trying to figure out the aprons because... I think teams

are too. There's some stuff in there that's like, whoa, this is actually really going to change basketball. Russell talked about it on his podcast a little today. I don't really know if somebody just came at Reeves in a big way. I don't really know what the Lakers would do. They would have to match it. But then now you have all these other problems. I don't think they can afford him and Rui together because Rui might be like a $15 million guy

now. I mean, if you got to pick and choose, you pick Austin Reeves. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, no one is preparing that big an offer sheet for Austin Reeves, are they? Well, free agency, you take cap space, you take what you think a guy is worth in your head,

and then you add 35% to that. So do you think Reeves is like a $14 million a year guy? God, yeah. Yeah, I guess we have... 13, 14? We have to factor in the overpay. You're right. And honestly... So that's 20 now. One of the other things about the new CBA is, and we might have to fact check this to make

sure that this is still the case, but I believe there was a provision in there, basically not making it as beneficial for teams that are below the salary floor to stay below the salary floor. So there's more incentive to, even if you're bad, to just spend the money you have up closer to the cap. So there's more reason for a team like San Antonio or whoever it is that's kind of like, oh, we're still going to be a lesser team next season. But Austin Reeves is a young guy who could be interesting to our future. Maybe we do just roll the dice and take a pass at him and see what happens.

Load this thing up with as many punitive provisions as we can possibly put in. Front load, back load, whatever you need to do to make it uncomfortable for the Lakers and see what happens. Well, LeBron might retire too, if you believe that story.

That's certainly a possibility that he has suggested could happen, I guess. I'm more and more kind of grossed out by that as the days pass. Grossed out? Yeah. Yeah, a little grossed out.

Why grossed out? Because you know what? You got swept and Jokic was the best player in this series. And it just felt like throwing something out there to get some attention versus just like saying, you know what, that Denver was great. They beat us and Jokic is unbelievable. Like somehow LeBron became the center of attention after. I do not think he's going to retire. I think there's a

0% chance. No, not going to happen. Like a 0% chance. And you know, I talked about it with Jovan Buha on Tuesday. There was, you know, clearly a ploy and an intent to send some sort of message to the Lakers, but I don't know. Wait a day. Let Jokic... I just like when you get beaten, especially swept, let the other team enjoy the sweep for two seconds before you start stealing the headlines.

Did you see that clip of how ESPN covered the two minutes right after the Nuggets won? No. They were just showing LeBron walking off the floor into the tunnel. It was basically like you saw no Nuggets celebrating. They were so sad to lose LeBron. And now everybody has to figure out

how to talk about Denver. And meanwhile, we've all been talking about Denver on every podcast and Jokic and all this stuff. So at least Jokic is going to get the casual fan victory lap. Oh, yeah. Just let me know

when you want a moment to come on here and talk about like Jeff Green and Michael Porter Jr. as much as we talk about Rui Hachimura and Austin Reeves

and the LeBron supporting cast. Look, we're ready for it. You know, here at TheRinger.com we are prepared. Well, my favorite is old man Jeff Green. I was talking about this with the guy I went to the game with on Monday.

It's like, old man Jeff Green, still holding it down. He was in the same draft as Kevin Durant. It's a sobering thought. Who just got traded for Mikael Bridges, Cam Johnson, four first-rounders in a swap. They're not the same age because Jeff Green was in college, I think, for two years longer, but still, same thing. They're in the same draft. Plus, he was Uncle Jeff

even when he was a rookie. He just looks like an Uncle Jeff. So now he's Grandpa Jeff. It's pretty funny. Alright, Rob Mahoney, when's the next podcast? We'll have one on Sunday. Coming out of this Saturday night game.

Who's going to win in succession? What does winning mean? Who's going to be running Waystar? I think Shiv is going to be running it. I don't think it's going to feel like winning. Who do you think was picked first in the succession character draft that's about to run after the break,

after you leave, that me and Vane and Charles Holmes did? Carolina. Okay. She did go higher on the draft than I expected, I gotta tell you. I'm not entirely surprised by that. You would have loved my draft board. Van makes an unbelievable early

pick that just the draft board, the draft next, we're killing him. Anyway, Rob Mahoney, great to see you. Thanks, Bill. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research.

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possibilities all right taping this on a wednesday the midnight boys from the ringer verser here charles holmes van lathan yeah you have your's jersey? Did you buy it yet? I did buy it. I bought the Yoko's jersey. By the way, I should say that me buying the Yoko's jersey is not because I lost any bet. It's just a surrender. And it's a surrender. And that's how you have it. I mean, look, I just told Tate,

I'm a hater, but I'm not a liar. Dude's been phenomenal. Van surrendering to the white man. I never thought I would see it. Well, the thing is, Van's case was always do something, make the finals. And then Jokic said, cool, I'm going to now make the finals.

And now Van's... Now you can basically say, now win the title, and that would be your next thing. No, he didn't say, I'm going to make the finals. He said, I'm going to make the finals as a cross between Oscar Robinson, Larry Bird, and goddamn Shaq. He didn't just say, I'm going to make the finals. He said, watch me rip the heart out of your beloved Lakers.

I just told Tate, I did something with Tate. Tate's great. Watch through the ringer. I said, it was like watching Rocky IV, just like watching Drago just fucking destroy Apollo Creed. And you're like, I don't know if there's anybody who could beat that guy. Big Eastern European wrecking machine. You know? I like that. Drago would be a good nickname for him.

Well, we're not here to talk about Drago. You guys, because we're doing, we have the Prestige TV pod. We've been doing recaps. We've been doing precaps. We have the watch. You guys had just a slew of succession takes ready to go. How are you? Ready to be fired in

the chamber. We're going to do a best characters draft because the season finale is on Sunday. But before we do that, let's talk about big picture, this show

in the hierarchy. Charles, where does this show rank for you? If it does what I think it's going to do in the series finale, this is officially my greatest TV show of all time. Wow.

I know I'm being like a take artist right now, but in my soul, I really, really feel it. And I know Van feels it as well. I didn't think it was possible because Living Plus, those mid-episodes this season, I was like, it's getting shaky. But the last two or so episodes, I'm like, man, we're about to have something special. So it's incredible. So how old are you exactly?

I'm 30. Okay. So Sopranos, you had to catch up on as an adult. Yeah. But here's the thing. This is why I ding the Sopranos, even though I like it. Those are my countrymen. I grew up in Jersey. I grew up in a very Italian place. Sopranos, even though I like it. Those are my countrymen. I grew up in Jersey. I grew up in a very Italian place. Sopranos was my life. So it's like watching it is a little bit different.

The thing that, for me, Succession had to beat, it has to beat Mad Men, and it has to beat The Wire. And right now, The Wire is always going to be more to me. It's going to be the more important show. And Mad Men has a special place in my heart as important show. And Mad Men is like, has a special place in my heart as a writer.

But man, Succession, this feeling. I don't know. It's amazing. Van, we talked about, you're a little closer to my age, but I always had like Mad Mount Rushmore and Sopranos and The Wire. They just had to be on.

Those were the two. Like we've talked about like the prestige shows. And then those other two spots kind of depend on the person and what you like. And now it's almost like ranking the basketball players when you get to like, you have to have Russell

and you have to have LeBron and you have to have MJ. And then once you get to four, you know, Kareem should be the choice, but some people will go a little rogue at that point. I did not think we would have anybody else at that level. To me, if Succession nails the season finale, it has to be in the top three and the top four,

especially from, well, one of the things we talk about on Prestige is just it's the best acted show I've ever seen. It has, you're going to ding the Sopranos on different things. One of the things you would ding them on is there are some actors that weren't great on that show. This show,

everybody's great. And that's where we get all the other stuff. So what, where does it stand for you? Uh, yeah, it's, it's way up there.

If it sticks to landing, I'm not sure I've seen the better television show. I said that it was a subject of much, much, much conversation on Twitter. I think for me, when I look at these shows, Sopranos is the most entertaining show across the board that I've ever seen. It's got it's very American sex jokes, rock and roll of a show. It's going to make you laugh a little bit more. It's very American sex jokes, rock and roll of a show. It's going to make you laugh a little bit more. It's got murder. It's got the family dynamic.

It checks all those boxes of just being entertained. Sometimes the show is a laugh out loud funny. Sometimes it's poignant. Sometimes it's avant-garde. It's just very entertaining in that way. The Wire is just an achievement of television and the intricacy of storytelling that is very difficult to even articulate in a way. It's like what they were able to do,

and people talk about how it's a novelization of American life. It's incredibly ambitious, and then they nailed it. This show- We should mention you hosted a podcast that broke down every single episode of The Wire on The Ringer. On The Ringer, way down in the hole,

me and Jemele Hill. This show is just perfect. It's like, it's a, it's like if we're all sitting down and we're eating caviar we're drinking wine and then there's some and you drink wine you go this wine is really good and then somebody else comes to you like a sommelier and then they say but let me tell you why this wine is really good let me tell you where this comes from how this is made like the craft that goes into it sometimes with things that are of that quality,

you can't see that craft and you have to be of a certain level of appreciation to be able to see it. With Succession, you don't. If you actually give into the show, the pacing of the show, the acting of the show, the scene between Shiv and Tom in this last episode

where the totality of their relationship has come down to one moment where there's this cutting vulnerability and she's looking around almost for help because she doesn't know how to deal with him being a human being and he is just crumbling in front of her she's crying because he feels bad he's crying he's breaking down because of the sheer weight of everything that's just really difficult to replicate i watched it back like four or five times and i can't really think of too many other places that do that without drifting into melodrama so at the level that it cooks at i'm just not sure that any show has cooked at that level before. I'm just being for real.

Or whether it's going to happen again. Charles, what do you say that the biggest, when I talk to people, like I'm asking if they watch a show, people that are smart, people that love TV, and the reason that I get back if they're not watching

or if they stopped watching is, I don't like those characters. I don't want to spend time with those characters. I just didn't like them. So what's the response to that? Those people are weak. They don't have the heart. Sometimes, here's the thing.

Sometimes everybody isn't really, to Van's point, sophisticated enough for caviar. No, but seriously, to your point, I think the thing that we have to be real about Succession is that I think that first season separated the men from the boys in terms of like

you really have to surrender yourself over to this show because that first episode, you see Roman when he rips up the check for the kid. That is a moment where I've been talking to people I think I was at a wedding like that's the moment where people like why am I watching this like right I can't I can't root for any of these people but what I say to that is I'm

like I think the public has been watching prestige tv wrong for decades at this point because I'm like you're not supposed to root for Tony Soprano. You're not supposed to root for Walter White. We just end up doing it. And how many of these showrunners are always like, yeah, that was the big problem of the show. We're trying to create a show that's showing you how morally decayed a certain type of archetype in the American consciousness is. And as Americans, we're like, but I want to root for Walter White. And I'm like, no, that's not the point. And I think that succession is the best example of

these characters are not supposed to be characters that you want to root for. It's showing us how ugly we have become. Well, but that's the great thing about the show is when Roman is such a scumbag this season and you know when he breaks down the funeral you feel bad for him it's like how does

the show do that you feel terrible he's already out on roman as a human being but yet i feel empathy for him so my thing about that is i think some of those creators are being disingenuous when they're saying that about their shows like walter white is a drug dealer yeah he's but you have to remember why he became that like all of these guys have motivations that are inherently relatable like tony soprano is a father he doubles as an animal lover in the show at times and then for as hard as he is on women he essentially kills one of his capos because of or at least has a huge beef with him because of the way he treated a young girl and then an animal so tony it throughout the sopranos like as much of a leech and a pariah as he is he comes to the aid

of people who are less powerful than him in ways that are uncommon. And Walter White, until he finally breaks bad, is doing this kind of for his family, and he's sick. And all of these things kind of give the audience an out. Succession really doesn't do that. What it does is it says, hey, there's a part of these people that genuinely love each other, but we never really put it on front street. Like we never do. I remember one time when it was time to kill Ken and Roman goes, I don't really want to do that. He taught me how to pee pee in the toilet, you know? But other than that, they don't lean into the fact that these people are a family. It's kind of just a thing that's out there sure they love their father but you never really saw

logan like go to bat for them in the way that tony did for aj who is like one of the worst characters in the history of television but that i relate more to every single day or for meadow he's always the big winner of the rewatches is the aj he is like oh man aj was a good character yeah he was i relate more to every day. But in this show, it's kind of like there's an underpinning of family and connection with these people. But more than anything,

they're just human beings that are products of their situation. And that's how we are, to me, more than anyone. Like, if you sat down with a guy, hey, you might like him. But if you watch him on TV, you're like, fuck this guy.

So, like, I think the fact that the show doesn't bail you out and they're still able to make you drift in and out of human moments with them. Because you're talking about Roman at the funeral. Remember when Roman broke and went at Madsen on the mountaintop? I related. I related. I'm like, yeah, it's all about business. But fuck you, dude. Like I'm like yeah it's all about business but fuck you dude like I'm braving yeah

you know we talked about this on the last prestige pod we did me and Sean and Joanna about the greatest shows take you so beyond the characters to where how did they end up this way seems to be a theme over and over again right

and The Wire did that the best with season four. They literally went to the bare bones of this is how this starts. Breaking Bad, same thing. You watch this guy just kind of unravel. Sopranos, they spent so much time with the backstory of how his family affected him that after a couple of seasons,

I get it. I get why this guy's so fucked up. And Succession, they not only do they do this great, but they still do a good, like, one of the weird things that happens in the four seasons is Ewan has a chance to shank his brother, right? When they're doing the board vote. And you see in the funeral speech in season four, he fucking hates his brother, right? He thinks his brother's actually like evil and responsible for a lot of carnage

and bad things and destruction in society. But what does he do in that board meeting? He doesn't want to cross him and he still feels this weird sense of loyalty to him because they're related. And this show balances that loyalty. I want to destroy you, but we're also related and it's just juggling so many things. I don't really know how I want to destroy you, but we're also related. It's just juggling so many things.

I don't really know how I want it to end. I just want to make sure that it's not going to end badly. Charles, I trust these guys. I feel like they have figured this show out. They figured out the arc. They know how they want it to end. I feel like I'm in safe hands, right?

Oh, I feel like we're in safe hands, but I want to ask both you and Van this. It feels as if the show, this season as well, has been reorienting us to be like, this has always been Kendall's show. Where even last episode, I was like, all right, this is the Godfather. And it seems like we kind of all know where this is going.

Yeah. I feel like I'm in safe hands but would you guys feel that it's a letdown if it does end how it probably will with kendall succeeding his father finally getting everything he wanted but he's like presiding over a kingdom that is burnt down he's betrayed everyone he's godfather and a godfather too yeah would that be he won but what did he win would that be too expected would you be let down if there's not a big twist i personally wouldn't be yeah i don't know they they they have spent a lot of time rebuilding the kendall arc and at the same time he does have a pretty bad skeleton that we haven't heard from really in

really since the second, the last episode or the last episode of last season, when he tells Shivan Roman, Hey, FYI, I killed a waiter. This is one of their stuff fucked up. This guy died.

So a lot, enough people know that, that I wonder how clean this is going to be for kind of, and just FYI to the people listening, none of us have seen screeners. We have no idea what's going to happen. By the way that episode is the pine barrens episode of succession to me you know how like we we the russians so we just i mean we're never going to talk about that again you know what i mean you know i mean i know you know what i mean it's like

that's just that happened and so ken it's never that's not going to be a part of any of the that's not going to come back to where someone goes oh it's in this file and Logan was keeping a kill list on all you know what I mean or like whatever is going on but I'll say something about what you said earlier about the brother Ewan I thought that scene

the funeral scene in Logan's funeral was one of the most relatable scenes in all the succession. Maybe the most relatable because like that is something that I've seen before. The funeral where somebody gets up and they go, let me tell you really about this motherfucker in this box right here. Let me tell you who this person really was. And then somebody else goes, yeah, all of that's true but remember this remember when we did this remember when we did that and blah blah blah and i think the interesting thing about listening to him

is it perfectly encapsulates what the show is about because i think he did love logan yeah and i think he pitied him i think when when he's when he when he's talking to people right and he's going he's going listen so i'll let you know there's a reason why he is the way that he was i cannot run because he doesn't come till that towards the end he says listen i won't let you know we came over here it was hard they blamed him for the death of his sister. So the guy that can't connect with people, there's a reason why. But let me be honest with you and tell you who this person was. He even says, I guess I loved him. He did love them because he understood why he was fucked up. Ken and Shiv are grieving together he now knows that she's been going behind his back this is just the world they live in and to be honest with you kind of the world we all live in but it seems like

sometimes and The Wire did this other shows The Wire did this sometimes shows shy away from the fact that we do the shittiest things to the people who know us the best you know what I mean but The Wire was an expert show at doing this because at the end that we do the shittiest things to the people who know us the best. You know what I mean?

But The Wire was an expert show at doing this because at the end, you know, fucking Avon, the Stringer sold out Avon and Avon sold out Stringer. Kind of the same shit, you know? Oh, I mean, to your point, you brought up Shiv earlier. The saddest thing, like the tragedy,

the comic tragedy of last episode is that Shiv is describing the saddest thing, like the tragedy, the comic tragedy of last episode is that Shiv is describing the love of her father like when he loves you, it's like the sun setting on you. Like it's like the sun.

And who's not there? Tom isn't there. To hear that, because I'm like, that's exactly how you treat Tom. And what does she do later in the episode? Tom's face,

when she's like kind to him for the first time this entire season like oh you need to go like sleep like you can come back to our apartment and he's like looking at her like finally you've given me like this small morsel of affection it's so funny how i'm just like oh no he is he is the shiv in this logan relationship where it's like this is why he keeps coming back to shiv even after every episode I'm like dude like fucking fun bro

like and that's the genius of this series where you can see how Shiv becomes who she is and then you can see how that ripples across every single relationship that any of these kids touch and then you have Mondale

the dog who's just not getting any attention from either of them. Really, and I know we got to get to the draft, but I think the most interesting thing about the Roy kids, and, you know, obviously Khan is on the outside of that. Khan is who I would be. That's who I would be, bro. Khan's the real winner this season. I don't care what anybody says.

Khan would be like Khan got... He almost took Kentucky. Yeah, he almost took Kentucky, man. Khan, Khan's who I would be, like, Khan got young, beautiful. He almost took Kentucky. Yeah, he almost took Kentucky, man. Khan, Khan. So close. But when you look at the Roy kids, it's like Logan split them into three. None of them is a whole person.

They're all shards of who Logan was. They're all, all like different parts of his personality that with that like so Shiv. They're all kind of the worst parts of his personality by the way. Like the worst parts of who he is. It's like all his weaknesses. All and

they kind of represent like none of them is like full because he never really showed them the full gamut of a father shiv is shiv started off trying to be anti-logan to be the bleeding heart going into like whatever yeah ken was trying to be a clone of him and roman is his biting sense of sardonic humor you know what i mean so it's like it's it's, it's, it's all different. And I think the winner to me will, of the children will be someone who gets some wholeness at the end of it.

And I don't know that any of them will. Charles, does Van call his fans the Van Heads or no? The Van Heads? I don't know. Wait. Yeah. When you guys argue on the ringer verse, does he say the Van Heads? The The van heads know what I'm talking about? The contingent here, the van contingent is very strong though. They be in my mentions a lot. So I need a good, the vanaholics.

Let's just name them. Before we do the character draft, which I'm super excited about, and I spent more time agonizing about, I just made a list and I was like, oh shit, we're going to actually have to pick people from this. Give me one prediction

for the season for now, Charles. Ooh. One prediction. Just one prediction. Doesn't have to be how it's going to end. Just one prediction. So, I don't know

if I heard this on Prestige or like I read it on Twitter somewhere, but like I've been thinking about this a while. The saddest part of this will be like Kendall potentially being reunited with his kids. And he like turns to woman.

It's like a fuck off. Or he does something that's so Logan. And you're just like, that's actually the moment where you're sad. Like he wins everything. And like, if it's his kids, like playing outside of his office or something happens

and he does a loganism i think that might be like the last shot or the moment where like oh he's he's fully become the killer that his father needed him to be but at what cost he gained the strength from the mausoleum he stared at at it. He gave that long extra camera shot of the mausoleum and just gained the evil strength from it. What's your one prediction, Ben? There will be a time jump. Really?

Wow. Okay. What? I don't know. This actually doesn't do time jumps. I think that maybe we see tom and shiv with like a two-year-old kid or something i have a i don't know why i have a feeling because remember we don't the the status of minkin and whether or not he actually becomes president is up in the air.

And it's going to be it's going to take some months. They're acting like he's the president. They're calling him Mr. President. But there's really there's no authority to it right now. So at some point, there's going to be in within the narrative of the show, a time jump that either shows us Shev and Tom's kid or shows us Mencken being sworn in as President of the United States or maybe Jimenez being sworn in as President of the United States.

So that was my prediction. Oh, really? I think Mencken, no, just not the time jump. I think Mencken loses. I think the no just not the time jump I think Megan loses I think the twist in the last episode and a couple people

pointed this out to me in my life and I was mad I didn't see it after watching episode 9 three times

and somehow missed this they were very careful to make it clear that he hadn't actually won yet and if he wins there was like some if stuff with it. And it's actually a better dramatic device if in this last episode,

it turns out he actually, and they spent all this political capital trying to win him over. And now he's not going to win. And then what does that mean? Does that torch ATN's reputation? So like Kendall is essentially like the king of like something that has no worth. The stock is crashing and it's like the Madsen deal falls.

ATN's reputation is demolished and the kids basically take over this skeleton corpse. I thought that was a good theory. I liked it. I like it too. But if the ATN falls, won't Madsen still want it? Madsen wants ATN, but he said before in another episode,

I mean, I think that's a fantastic theory. I'm not pulling holes in it. I'm just saying if ATN becomes even easier for him to get, remember his numbers are bad, so the price being lower is help for him. He said bad brand, good parts because there's still parks and movies and all that other stuff that Gojo might want. Might ATN. Not if Jimenez just squashes it.

Well, yeah, okay. And we also, we still, nothing has happened with the blood and the PR professional and all that shit. That's still in the ecosystem. That might be something that Kendall has in his back pocket to finally torch Mattson and Shiv.

There's still a lot in the ecosystem. I can't wait to see what happens. Alright, let's take a break and then we're going to do the big draft. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too.

Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example.

Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Do we give Charles the first pick since...

Yeah. Since, Van, you've been on this podcast more than he has. I think we should. Charles, we're going to give you the first pick. I'll give Van... I'll give you the choice, Van. You could be second, or you could be the third pick, which means then you're batting fourth too

because we'll go snake fashion. So you're going to go third. So you have two in a row. All right. So we are drafting best character, right? So let's talk about what this means. Are we saying it's best character? Are we saying favorite character? Are we saying favorite character?

Are we saying combination of both? Are we saying these are the characters that will be the indelible for the rest of my life? I will think this was the best character on the show and then it drops in severity after. Let's say if we did this for The Wire, who would have been the first pick?

Avon. For me? See, here's the thing it would be stringer bell for me to be honest oh avon avon avon boxdale is the number one gangster in the history of like to me avon is the man i would i would have drafted avon first but i'll say this i'm drafting see i would characters. See, I would have drafted Stringer. Charles and I would have been fighting for Stringer. Interesting. I would have drafted Avon first. It's funny that nobody would have drafted any of the BPD first, but I would have

drafted Avon first. But I'm drafting my favorite. I'm drafting my favorite. Your favorite. I'm not trying to win the draft. We're doing favorite characters and then we'll see who has what team at the end alright Charles

alright favorite characters you go first you're the first pick alright so this is yeah I gotta just do it I think that this actor has the chance to be the greatest actor

of his generation I think this character is the most accurate and probably important character in terms of like a reflection of what america is in 2023 i have to take kendall like i have to just yeah he's the man you know it's what jeremy strong has done through the course of these seasons is something where i don't know if you guys agree i don't't think Jeremy Strong had the chops in that first season to really be a

leading man. Like it took him, it took him half the season. I feel like to get, we talked about this on prestige. It, when you do the rewatch, he doesn't really settle in.

I don't really feel like any of them really do until like midway through that season, but that makes sense, right? They're learning these characters but to see where to watch those first couple episodes and compare them to like where Kendall is

now I was watching this is not for tears and just seeing just the jump that he has made as a performer I think Kendall is one of my favorite TV characters just of all time I have to go Kendall first. Van, where would you put that in greatest HBO acting performances?

If Gandolfini's one. I don't think he's supplanting Gandolfini. Gandolfini's one. And I don't think he's supplanting Adebisi. I think Adebisi's probably two. Even Adebisi having the hat stay on his head for the whole time of Oz, Out of BC. I think Out of BC is probably too. Even Out of BC having the hat stay on his head for the whole time of Oz, it

self-deserved three Emmys. I don't understand how the little hat stayed on his head the whole time. So Gandolfini's way up there. Edie Falco's way up there. I mean, to be honest with you, Edie Falco is way up there. He's on whatever the HBO short list is. I think Ken Hill. Whatever the HBO shortlist

is, up there, Peter Dinklage, all of those people up there in those situations. Bill, did you watch Thrones? You watched Thrones. I love Thrones. I'm less upset about the last season than other people. Because now people are like, no, fuck

Thrones. The finale sucked. I'm like, Thrones? I enjoyed it the whole time. I'm sorry that it didn't win the title in its last season. Then it just made the second round. I'm sorry it was the KD Booker Sons. Still a good show. I feel the same way. Why are season five? I've gotten into arguments about why season five was good. There was one plot that didn't work. But if you go back and you watch the season finale, the series finale, it's one of the fucking best series finales ever. I watched it last week. It might be

the best. It's fucking amazing. It gets no credit. It's not in the discourse at all. It's like, oh, the journalism plot sucked. And that's like the season five take. The Wire season finale, the Wire season five is not well loved but i like it i mean i like it you know the serial killer plot was a little wonky but whatever

but i think jeremy i think jeremy strong was way up here way up there in hbo uh acting performance but i think the the whole cast is if i'm being honest like this could be a situation where the whole cast makes appearances on that list. I'm not sure. Alright, I'm up second. This is really hard. There's some good people left on my board. I'm going to go with Roman and

I'm going to explain why. Damn! Roman! I think that was definitely I was definitely choosing him. Second pick? If we did advanced metrics on this show and who just got off the best lines, I would say Roman has maybe 50% of the best lines in the show. So we'll start there. Second, he took this character. It was like, oh, it's a spoiled rich brat.

He's going to be the Macaulay Culkin brother. I see who this guy is. And then as the first season's starting to hum, especially when we get to the Prague episode, and Roman just goes to another level. It's like, oh, we're doing this. Then the Jerry stuff. It's like, oh my God, we're moving now.

And then we get to season three and he's starting to get a little footy more and it's like, this guy might have a chance. Jerry's helping him. He's empathetic with Kendall. Maybe he'll be the better brother. And then season four, what a rollercoaster ride where every time it feels like he has it in his grasp.

He's too impulsive. He's going to fuck it up. I thought some of the acting that Karen Culkin did, especially this season, is as good as anything that's been on the show and on HBO

and the funeral scene specifically. But I think that character is incredible. So I'm happy to have him on my team. Welcome aboard, Roman. I can't believe you have somebody so toxic he's a cancer to any team it's a it's a tv show it's a character i was gonna draft roman and if not just for of all the times that i've laughed

the scene i i'm sorry y'all y'all can't tell me anything I was Kalika thought I was losing it the scene where he sends the dick pic to Logan and he makes a face that is the funniest fucking shit y'all

that is the when he comes back that is the funniest fucking shit, dog. Like, I was... He's like, Roman, are you some kind of sicko? He does, like, the freeze frame take. The stuff he does physically with his body in some of these scenes... I don't know how big he is.

I don't think he's maybe taller than 5'6", 5'7". But he can do all these different things with his shoulders. All right, Roman's second. Van, you got two. What are you doing? I got to go with Logan. So I was going to go with Roman, but I got to go with Logan. A guy of my age has seen a lot from Cox

and I saw him, he played Hannibal Lecter in Manhunter. He was in Rushmore. He's been around. You've seen him a lot. You always knew that he was a great stage actor. Great stage actor. You always knew he was a badass. But the whole show, the ethos of the whole show the ethos of the show the the driving

force of the show the the world that we're in is sort of created by Roman Royce it's not Roman Royce by Logan Royce personality in much of the same way remember we're on the rewatch was I talked about how the MCU the world itself

is is Tony stark's portrayal as is robert downey jr's portrayal is tony stark like that character that's kind of the same thing with this world in in succession it's all logan everything is dripping with logan they're either running from logan or running towards him so i i definitely think that he would be somebody i mean you have to pick him he's left I mean, you have to pick him. He's left on the board. You got to pick him, right? You got to pick him.

He's the guy you got to pick. From Force of Nature TV characters, it's him and Soprano. Yeah. I'm trying to think, is there anybody else on that level? Not really. I want to ask this, though, with Logan.

I know everybody has been saying, all the critics, I've been saying this show could go on forever is that true without Logan now because like after like Logan has left this series I'm like no this is actually the perfect place to end it I don't know if you could have done

another season without that gravitational pull it would have been tough because you end up like a lot of great TV shows over the years where they just hung on that extra year and it was just such a bad idea. To me, it's like what's sitting there is the movie

where you get through this and maybe five years from now, you make just an incredible movie with a lot of these same pieces and we catch up with these people five years later I think it'd be too hard I personally think it'd be too hard to do another season what do you think Ben?

Yeah I think the episodes that we're getting now are really good but they're really good because Logan kind of the funeral did a good job of saying goodbye to good because Logan kind of, the funeral did a good job of saying goodbye to him,

but Logan kind of isn't dead until somebody takes his place. Yeah. And then the question then will become, all right, is the person that takes his place, is there enough Logan-iness to move on? And I'm not sure that there is. I think that's a fair point that Charles is making. One of the reasons this draft is so much fun is like two of our top three picks were just horrible, horrible human beings, Roman and Logan, but they're incredible TV characters, right? And

that's the whole point of this is how can you write a character? How can you find the right actor who could just capture every single piece of it and make you feel empathy for them, even though they're bad people. I can't wait to see who you take for. I know who I'm rooting for you not to take with the fourth pick. Van, who do you got? So here's the deal.

I know who I should take. It's easy. I don't think it's easy. But I'm not going to take that person. The person that I'm going to take is a 2018 starter on team all white girl.

I know what he's doing. I'm taking Shiv Roy. No! No! We're talking about I'm taking Shiv Roy. No. No. Hey, we're talking about... Bruh. Charles, am I allowed to be myself? Okay, I'll be somebody else for Charles.

I'll be someone else. I'll be somebody else for Charles right here. I'll be somebody other than you and I. No, you already said it. Big Shiv. I won't be me. Big Shiv. The person who Big Shiv was going to lose.

Like, I'm just going to be honest. It's not... But see, here's the thing. This is the difference between you and I as generational. It's not about winning or losing. It's about fulfillment. Everything is about winning or losing. It's not.

And what I'm telling you right now is I'm picking Shiv Roy. Shiv Roy burst onto the scene for lots of reasons. Okay? And I like the portrayal of Shiv. I think that the portrayal of Shiv is fantastic. Sarah Snook does a great job. Okay. A lot of people have been critical of her, you know, recently.

A lot of people have. But I remember when she first came into our lives. What people have been critical of her recently? What's going on? Oh, my God. They are writing Shiv like mother. Sometimes. Is this in the Twitter streets bro that election night

that election night that election night episode was tough on Shiv like bro it literally was tough on Shiv they were writing Shiv like she was Pauly Walnuts I'm serious like they were like she was being outdueled

at every single it's pretty rough the fake phone call it was pretty rough that's among the dumbest moments in the show

you got you got knifed by cousin Greg like come on man yeah come on but look but can I tell you

something about She of Roy besides you know what Sarah Snook hath given us the reality is is that just say it stop we're on Bill's podcast say this is because of you know, what Sarah Snook hath given us. The reality is that.

Just say it. Stop. We're on Bill's podcast. Say this is because of, you know, the badum-badum. She's fine. Just be real. She's fine. She's fine.

And she's been fine. But let me be real with it. Let me be real about it for a second. Shiv, in terms of her character, has had one of the more significant arcs in succession. She started off on the outside, to a degree, of the Roy family structure. She was drawn back into it with her father, by her father, should I say, and almost was lured into reinserting herself

into a lot of things that it seemed like she didn't have very much interest in. And to watch her now have to deal with all of this stuff, but at the same time, earn the respect of her brothers, earn the respect of Mattson, when she had to deal with making the last episode and he says, you hate me? She goes, the way I feel is irrelevant. that's her trying to be in that same mold and i think that's very interesting to do then knowing that right after that we were going to see that character brilliantly played by sarah

snook break down and be between half tears and half bewilderment at Tom's vulnerability. I love shit for the reasons that I first loved her. And for the reasons that, that the character, uh, for the way that the character performs now, I love shit. I really do. So Charles,

I'm sitting there with the second pick in the draft and there are two people I liked equally. And I tried to guess what Van was going to do and I knew if I didn't take Roman Van was taking him and I knew Van was going to take Logan if I didn't take Roman but I didn't want to take Roman

I wanted to take Tom because I fucking love Tom and we'll go into that in a second but I knew Van was going to take Shiv with one of those two picks it was like being in the draft with, in the NBA draft with somebody who's the GM is right after them. It's like, Oh,

that guy loves dunkers. He just fucking loves people who are up in the air, just slamming home alley-oops. He's going to take the Thompson twin. I don't have to take the Thompson to it now. I'll take the guy I want because I know he's going to take them. Anyway, I'm delighted to have Tom, who you could say pound for pound

the best character on this show. Arguably the funniest character on this show other than Roman. Great arc. Fantastic actor. I think the actor with the best chance to come out of this show and have a pretty big career. I guarantee he's going to be the villain in some Die Hard type movie or he'll be in the Marvel Universe or something. I think, like, bigger things are coming for him.

A Bond villain. Or Bond villain. He could be a Bond villain. He would be a really good Bond villain. If there's a spinoff show, I think he could be the better call Saul of the spinoff show. So, A, delighted to have Tom. I think he's been incredible start call solve, the spinoff show. So A, delighted to have Tom. I think he's been incredible start to finish. I love Tom.

B, Shiv was way lower on my board than I think you guys would be prepared for. I thought whoever picked Shiv would be the big loser. Shout out to Joanna. I love you. The greatest to ever do it. But Shiv is the character, if you the greatest to ever do it, but Shiv is like the character, if you were going to ding Succession, that

I feel like they have had the hardest job writing and figuring out what she is to this show. Like every other season, it's like it's a different character. And we've argued about that. It's especially the beginning of season two when the dad's clearly playing her and she can't see it.

I've had a hard time establishing like how savvy is she yeah you see her like rubbing shoulders with like mattson or whoever and it's like oh she's great and then she can just get outwitted in like two seconds dude can i be real with you i feel like people say that but logan did that to all of them. He literally, what we just described of him doing to Shiv, like he did that to all of them. He had Roman on a string, an emotional string.

Couldn't stop texting him. He literally has Ken by the balls. Like Ken tried to take out Logan, and he failed. So a lot of people, I think that criticism of Shiv, I think she's maybe written to make people wonder if they're being unfair to her, because that criticism of Shiv, Logan did that to everybody. Every one of his kids, he lobotomized them.

Khan, too, he destroyed Khan's whole life. Khan has the best life. But in terms of the way we view it as a royal life, Khan isn't even capable of having ambition beyond things that are kind of nonsensical. So I feel like that's a little unfair when they say that about her. You don't think so? No, because I just think Shiv at the beginning of season one obviously is the moral center, but she's not a complete idiot.

Like, she's just not. And the show has, like, wavered on how smart and capable she is. Couldn't agree more. To the point where I'm just, like, even the one, like, womp womp I had about

last week's episode, which i thought was nearly perfect as i'm like is is ship really like someone we think can kneecap kendall at this point like to me it's like that's like food for kendall like yeah the show has done anything it's shown us even though kendall has failed he is the killer. Like at the end when he's like, goes to the press conference and Logan is looking at his son, knifing him in the back on live TV,

we see that smirk. To this point, he is the only kid in my estimation who has been able to do that. And as much as Shiv acts like, no, I have it in me, I have it in me. I'm like like not really Shiv like not I don't know it's the fact

that you let Bill get Tom is like you fucked up the whole process I let Bill get Tom I got fired by the Houston Texans owner the Phoenix Suns owner whoever once again y'all have to remember I'm conning this so I don't care what you guys

say. You guys are all in the rat race. I'm in New Mexico with the Craigslist. I'm not tripping on whatever happens. I get 1% in Kentucky. I'm really popular in Alaska. I'm not.

I don't want to be a part of the rat race. By the way, I have not, I don't want to be a part of the rat race. By the way, I have, I have a couple people in my life who think Sarah Snooks is a little overrated as an actress

that I've gotten in arguments with. They said she only has like four moves. God damn. They said she only has like four moves. I don't agree with that at all.

They started imitating her and I was like, oh shit, that's actually hitting close to home. No way. They did the stuttering thing. They did the eye bulge thing and I was like, oh shit, that's actually hitting close to home. They did the stuttering thing. They did the eye bulge thing and they were like, if she was a center, she'd have a jump hook and a drop step and that's it.

I was like, no! It really hurt my feelings. She'd have a jump step and a jump hook and a drop step that never fucking misses. I also think she's got a 15 footer. I don Okay. I also think she's got a 15 footer. Like,

I don't know. I think she's got a 15 footer. Yeah. Uh, you know, I, you know, I,

I really think I don't think there are any acting weak links in the entire. That's how I feel. I really don't think. I mean, if I'm, if this is going to be my hottest take of like the whole thing, if I'm saying we are, if I'm going to be real,

I think if there's one actor that we're like being a little hyperbolic about come on like kieran this season like he's cooking don't get me wrong oh people are acting like kieran is like clearly like number one are you fucking nuts no kendall's are you kendall's the best i don't like the mountain scene as much as everybody else does that would not be on my Emmy reel I'm not about to turn this into Midnight Boys I'm really not about to do that

I'm not about to turn this into Midnight Boys but this is all time coke level shit I didn't say he's bad I'm just saying you're zagging for the sake of a zag i do not like the mountain scene the minute i saw it i'm just like this is like wow you know logan's not here anymore i'm submitting

like this is my chance at the emmys type shit where i'm like this is nuts i feel like I feel like De Niro at the end of Cape Fear when like half his face is burned off that tape was so hot I lost I lost like my hair well you have two picks

you gotta worry about your next two picks oh I already know where I'm going you got six and seven what do you got you have a little bit too much momentum

going with Tom so the first I have Tom and Roman right now I feel fantastic so I'm going What do you got? You have a little bit too much momentum going with Tom. So the first... I have Tom and Roman right now. I feel fantastic. So I'm going for the real white woman MVP of Succession. The person that my girlfriend gets very mad because every single time she graces the screen,

I'm like, she's so beautiful. I think that this is like every single time she's on screen it's just electric I have to go with Jerry like Jerry is interesting just she's next on my board like I wait

Van is acting like Jerry isn't the shit like what do you have against Jerry I fucking love Jerry and Jerry's not even in the pilot, by the way. They show up until episode two and they kind of sneak her in and then all of a sudden she becomes essential.

I feel like in a lot of ways she's almost the moral compass of the show. You don't agree, Van? I feel like Jerry is like the Marcus Smart of the show. Is that good or bad? You know, it's kind of like is,

is both right. It's like, it's like people that love Marcus Smart, love him. He's the entire team. I wouldn't trade Marcus Smart for Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale and a future Bill Russell and Pete. And for other people, it'sHale, and a future Bill Russell. And for other people, it's like,

he takes charges. He's straight. I like him. You know what I mean? But I feel like Jerry is kind of like, there's a whole Jerry hive. And because there's such a strong Jerry hive, we can sometimes overvalue Jerry. Jerry is cool.

But what has really Jerry done to deserve? First of all, Jerry and Roman are responsible for probably five out of the top ten funniest moments in this entire series. But to me, that's Roman making that happen. No, that's Jerry

just as much. No, no, no. You're not giving that all to Roman. That's Jerry just as much. Jerry's great. Wait, can, no. You're not giving that all the wrong. That's Jerry just as much. This is... Jerry's great. Wait, can I go on that Marcus Smart thing for a second? Because I really like where you went there. Glue guy. Great.

Fills in, checks a lot of boxes. Really good defender. Can guard all types of people. But if I look at the box score and he had like 19 shots, we probably didn't win. Right. And that's like, Jerry's like,

if she's involved, great. But I don't, I'm with Charles. I don't know if she could carry an episode, but I, I think, I think great value here.

I support that. She was next on my board. Who else do you have, Charles? Who's the next? So I have another pick and it's just like, I was not going to draft this person this high,

but I feel like it's the type of person that if either of you get them on the board, it's like there's going to be a contingent. So, I have to go with the other half of the Disgusting Brothers. I think Cousin Greg is quite possibly one of the Disgusting Brothers, I think Cousin Greg is quite possibly one of the funniest

creations that humanity has ever seen. And there's so much in that election episode that has been talked about, but what we have not talked about enough is the moment that Cousin Greg sniffs out that Shiv just doesn't have it. He tells Kendall and he walks away and you see his face. He smiles. He smiles. I cracked. It was the funniest thing I've ever seen. It was just like, oh

my gosh. Do you guys agree with my theory? He might be the winner in the end? Like when we say we have a US CEO, it actually could be because of Greg? I'm so worried about this. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on, Bill. Are you saying that some people think that Greg might win?

I hadn't heard that. A lot of people are saying this. I'm just fucking playing. Everybody's fucking saying that. No, if you go back and you watch the pilot, if you go back and you watch the pilot, it's really about Kendall and Greg and Logan, but really Kendall,

it's about Kendall trying to get Logan's seat and it's about Greg kind of working his way into the family and he's way more involved in the pilot than I think people remember. And I'm just thinking like this British guy, Jesse Armstrong writing it, who, you know,

seems like he's not opposed to taking some shots at America from time to time. I just wonder in his head, would this be a hilarious ending to him that Greg's the one that ends up winning this, like this idiot cousin that we've watched for four years? You know, it's funny. I don't want to give away everything I just

said when I was just with Tate, but Bill, I'm sure you haven't seen and will never see Guardians of the Galaxy 3. But if you see Guardians of the Galaxy 3. Is that a freeform movie? What is that? What channel is that on?

Okay. If you see Guardians of the Galaxy 3 very emotional amazing film it turns out that the story was rocket story the whole time and there is something about greg where greg could actually be the rocket raccoon of succession it could turn out that this is actually not about how all of these kids supplant or replace or succeed their father. That it's really about how Logan's grandnephew actually becomes the head of a once great American company. And if that ends up being it, I mean, they're kind of telegraphed a little bit now. Charles, it's Survivor.

It's like when that person who doesn't win any Survivor challenges somehow is in the final three in Survivor and they win and everybody else is bad. Could have been fucking Swim. How did you win Survivor? If Cousin Greg becomes the winner, I take back it all then this is it

yeah here's the reason why to me like i've said this on twitter i don't think it can happen only two years have like have elapsed inside the succession universe like greg was throwing up in a dog costume like a year and a half ago for him to be a glorified intern and then be the CEO within two years I'm like bro like I can take a lot of shit but they're literally looking at Shiv every single time people are like why can't Shiv be the CEO

it's like cause she was a fucking bleeding heart liberal what the fuck does she know about running a company if they do that with Greg I'm like alright come on what are we doing here you took Greg and Jerry company. If they do that with Greg, I'm like, all right, come on. What are we doing here? You took Greg and Jerry. Yeah. So right now the teams are

Charles has Kendall, Jerry, Greg. Van has Logan and Shiv. And I have Tom and I have Roman and now I have Connor Roy. Wow! Connor. Wow.

I'm also one of the con heads. I have the funniest team out of the three of us. Bill, you know what you're doing in this entire draft, bro? You're fucking with me, bro. You're fucking with me. You could have picked two. You chose the third pick. You know damn well, bro, that're fucking with me, bro. You're fucking with me. You could have picked two. You chose the third pick. You know

damn well, bro, that that was my... Wow, Bill. It should have been Connor before Shiv. This is your fault. I'll tell you one reason why I love Connor. The shows that I've loved over the years always feel like they have to shoehorn in

more scenes and more PT and more shots for these supporting characters, right? The usage rate will go up in certain episodes or whatever. I used to love 90210. They would always try to shoehorn in Steve Sanders into plots and stuff. It's like,

just put him over there. He's a dude with a blonde afro. He's comic relief. That's it. We don't need Steve Sanders plots. And Conor Roy, they figured it out. He'll come in. He'll have some episodes. He's in only three scenes, but every single moment, he fucking kills and he's super funny. And I've just really enjoyed my experience with Conor Roy. So that's my pick. Van, you have two. Okay. Well, that was a shock

to my system because I didn't think that anybody would pick Conner. I thought Conner would be there for me. Draft not going like I thought it would. Okay. So, in this case, I have to pick Mattson. Have to. Mattson? Have to.

You know, try not to react with, like, surprise and disgust with every pick I make it's just you're embarrassing the Midnight Boys with this Mattson right now they're cutting a Vans war room and people are just like tepidly applauding while like wondering if they're gonna have a job tomorrow Mattson would have been there bro

so I'm looking around at the rest of these characters and I'm not sure left on the board who you guys really feel like is better to choose. No, there's a drop off. There's a drop off. Going to Mattson right away is just a little...

No. I think Mattson's a great character to choose here. Number one, I think Succession throughout the history of the show has been a show that hasn't really had an enemy. You know, a lot of these other shows, they rotate

in enemies. There's a Gus Fring, there's a cartel, there's a Phil Leotardo. John Lithgow and Dexter. Yeah. I watched it. There's

Marlo Stanfield whoever right there's always been and secession never had that session never needed that because really that was the space that logan kind of filled in the show he was equal parts villain sort of protagonist center of the world in a way logan's absence and his impending absence you had to have mattson and the character is perfectly played arrogant genius uh there's a weird quality about him weird yeah he's like doesn't seem like a person seems like a all-consuming tech bro cultural entity and the fact that He doesn't seem like a person. Seems like an all-consuming tech bro cultural entity. And the fact that he doesn't seem real

is like such a biting criticism on the tech bros, the sort of tech giants as Robert Barron's in this new Gilded Age that we're in. I think he's a great character, so I'm picking Mattson. I like it. I like it. What do you got next? Tell me why Mattson's a bad choice.

I like Mattson as a character. I like him as a character. It's just like when we're looking back in 10 years, will he be a top 10 succession character? I don't know. And I love what he's adding. Charles is so in your head.

Is this what it's like when you guys do every podcast together? Charles just gets in your head. You back off. Charles, everything I say, I come off, like when I'm in that voice, I could say,

do you know who I think was a great American? And then the other three guys would go, Hugh, who? And I go, Martin Luther King Jr. And Charles will be like he's kind of mean. Are we sure? Charles will be like he's kind

of mean. I don't really like I just watched the I Have a Dream speech. Come on man. Is that the big deal that people are making? I'm like okay. Now I mean after, after this, I gotta be honest with you guys. It's really

tough. Let's go speed round. Go. Top of the fourth round. Speed round. Minkin. I gotta take Minkin. I gotta take Minkin. It feels weird to have him on my team, being that he would probably lynch me, but as a character, he represents so much of like like

real sort of fear that that exists inside i gotta take making go ahead make it that making is mine i thought that was a really good pick megan's a great character like he's a really we talked about him on prestige on sunday this last episode. He probably only had 10 lines. And the way he was just absorbing everything and kind of letting other people tell him things, but he wasn't really saying anything. And he just kept his guard. I thought it was a really good performance. I think that actor, Justin Kirk, is great.

Wheat, I did not have him as my next pick. I'm so glad you left her on the board. The board, this draft is just falling my way. It really feels like the Chiefs draft last year. Lady Caroline, aka the mom. Just another character with an incredible batting average.

Every scene she's in is an A+. I don't think she's probably said a half an hour worth of lines or scenes or whatever, but every time she's in, I'm happy. Uh, her performance last episode,

just another banger, her performance at the wedding, the, the Shiv's wedding, just out of control. Her, her up and downing Shiv and going, Hmm.

Hmm. Blimey. Uh, just tour de force. I love lady Caroline, so welcome aboard. Loved her. By the way, every single part of that, I promise you I've seen that before.

I've seen older black ladies look at somebody and be like, hmm, how long has this been a thing? And looking at me like, I didn't tell her. But you ain't got to tell me nothing you know how long I've been on this earth your pregnant ass I bet not see you drinking you know what I mean that's happened before and the scene

where she embraces Carrie and looks at the other woman and goes hey this is my Carrie I'm like oh shit that's the session getting a little messy I love that shit also her telling Shiv, basically, like, last season, man, not everyone should have kids.

I shouldn't have had kids. Oh, thanks, mom. Caroline makes Logan look like Uncle Phil. Like, every single time Caroline shows up, you're just like, Logan is bad. But potentially, like, this person, like, I would actually rather just have had Logan as the father because

the stuff that Caroline says to Shiv, I'm like, God damn, no wonder. Even Tom, every single time Tom sees their mom, he's like, oh, this is why my wife is the way that she is. What do you have for next pick? I thought that this guy was going to be

taken. I have to take Stewie. i have like i think stewie's next to my board stewie's the funniest i don't think he's lost once like he may not win but stewie never loses and just every single time he's talking to kendall i'm like part of me like if the de-aging shit gets a little bit more crisp, I would do a Kendall-Stewie college adventure. Oh, wow. That's fun. I love Stewie. He was on my board.

You have one more pick. Who do you have? Ooh, one more pick. Damn. See, we're getting it. This is really where you win the draft. This is the Isaiah Pacheco you win the draft this is the Isaiah Pacheco part of the draft

where all of a sudden you could end up with a starting running back damn this is you know what I'm going to end with someone who I think whenever she gets screen time I'm just like I'm so glad you're here you could have just been a bit player but she

plays her role well she doesn't hog up the limelight. And when she speaks, it's always hilarious. I have to go Willa. Willa is my girl. Like she has been killing it this season. I cannot imagine the show without her. And I don't know if I could say that in season one.

It's a really good pick. She's another one. Very high batting average with not a lot of at bats she'll have like three lines in an episode and all of them are really funny where are you going then

me? I'm next it's Bill see now my draft could fall apart here i might be doing a band um i think i gotta do it though i love carolina i don't understand why she has been more of the show but in a lot of way like her reactions for how little time that she has and how little we know about her.

She's weirdly been in a lot of big scenes. And she's always around and always kind of sizing people up. And I think I'm going to take her because I think the other person I wanted to take, I don't think Van's going to take. But I think he would have taken because we've already seen Van's draft board. It's always like combination of,

I love that actor, but I also think she's kind of attractive. I am grabbing Carolina before Van is able to take her. Shout out to CR and Big Waz who opened Club Carolina in St. Barts a while ago. I love Carolina. Beautiful. Great actress.

Also, she was in the Bernthal show. What was the name of that show? With Wayne Jenkins. That HBO show. She was in the Bernthal show. What was the name of that show? With Wayne Jenkins. Oh, We Own the City? She was in there? She was like a DA in that. Just different hairdo. She's good. She's a good actress.

Alright, Ben, what do you got? Okay, so you took Carolina. I'm going to take somebody with the worst audition tape for any job I've ever seen before

in my life. I love this pic. So at this point we just got to get we got to get solid role players. And this is somebody who has actually out hit their weight a little bit.

It's, it's, it's feeble is, is, is threatening all of that. I'm going with Carrie. Logan's last really good pick his last meal. I'm going with Carrie.

Oh, I really like her. I love Carrie. It's a great one. Well, I knew you wouldn't take this guy and he's still on my board. He is, I don't know not comeback player of the year because he's been on the show but like

like when Laurie Markkinen won most improved I feel like he wins most improved for season 4 he had some incredible scenes it's been around the whole time never really fully appreciated him but now I fucking love him Carl Carl is Carl crushed it it's been around the whole time never really fully appreciated him but now i fucking love him carl

new carl is carl carl crushed it a few times um and had some really funny lines that i loved that when he uh went at tom when he did that little monologue at tom when uh tom's like what do you think we should do and and he just like cuts him down in 20 seconds like oh carl didn't know he had that in there some prides's coming out with Carl this year. He's like, I've had a good fucking career. I know more than you guys. I'm in on Carl. All right, Charles, you got two. Oh, wait, no.

Van didn't get two. He only got one. Right? Yeah, was I supposed to get two? I don't know if I was supposed to get two. Yeah, you're supposed to. Van got Logan, Shane, Matting, Mencken, and Carey. Oh, shit, I jumped the gun.

It's fine. I wasn't going to draft him anyway. I'll throw mine in right now. I'm taking Hugo. Great one. Woof, woof. I'm taking Hugo. Woof, woof.

Hugo's right there. Another most improved candidate this season. Most improved candidate this season. Now we're getting into Logan's kind of inner circle of people that were at the top of Waystore, Roco, ATN in the past. I'm not digging Fisher Stevens either

for short circuit. All has been forgiven, my brother. The dude was married to Michelle Pfeiffer. He's got to have something going on. Are you fucking kidding me? No, I'm not fucking kidding you. He was Michelle Pfeiffer's first husband. In like the late 80s.

Yeah. When she was a god amongst men. Fisher fucking Stevens. We're talking about fabulous, fabulous baker boy. Yeah. Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah. He should have been the number one draft pick. Yeah.

Oh my God, Fisher. I read a story that, like, she was, like, taking care of his, like, iguana on the set of, like, one of his movies. Like, she was just all around New York

looking, taking care of this pet. Like, my man was, like, getting busy out here. Hugo. He's a legend. All right. I already took Carl. Let's go speed round.

Let's try to do this in five minutes. Charles, give us two. All right. I'm going. I've never seen her get fucked this entire series. I got to go Marsha. Like, Marsha is, like, is, like, legit.

Like, if she ends up running the company, I would not be surprised. So I'm going to go Marsha. And then, you know what? I have to go. Like, if I needed a surrogate father, I would have to go with Frank like Frank is the type of guy where he's he's the glue guy you're never going to be like remarked

like damn like he can act but when he shows up I'm like man he is like he is the epitome of like a bit player in a show yeah one of the few people that actually seemed to have some semblance of a soul that was around these work hits. Well, some good people are left in the supporting character class. I got to give a shout out to Ewan, who's only been in a few episodes. Killed it. But now he's on my team. He crushed the funeral speech. He crushed whatever family episode,

the Thanksgiving. It's season one. Crush that. Anytime he's been in, it's been a home run. James Cromwell, such a great actor back in the 70s. It was on two different episodes

of The White Shadow playing two different people. Just want to point out that. Also was on, I think, Miami Vice. Was in a bunch of action movies in the 80s and 90s and just kind of hung around and turned into James Cromwell. And it's funny to see him, age 83, just fucking killing it in the funeral speech. So there you go.

What do you got, Bam? I am really, really, really at the bottom of the barrel here. So much so that I'm going back. This is strictly for the culture. I was happy to see her pop up. I feel like she was underused when she was on the show. And I'm going to

take great pride in being the first person in this draft to draft a Black American. I'm going with Sanaa Lathan. Charles, you couldn't do it. You couldn't put one on for your people. It's impossible. Lisa Arthur, as played

by Sanaa Lathan, aging like fine wine, a sister about town. Lisa Arthur. No reason other than the fact that of the characters left, she represents the culture. Stan Lathan's kid. You got one more if you want it.

So really on my draft board, like my draft board is I'm out of people on my draft board. You got to pick Adrian Brody. Come on, man. Yeah, take Adrian. We'll give you Adrian Brody for your last pick.

Give me Adrian Brody. Take Brody. Take Brody for your last pick. Give me Agent Brody. Take Brody. Take Brody. Right. As much as I love Jess, and I thought that's who Van was going to take there. I thought Jess was really important in the last two episodes, but just not really strong enough during the season.

Really came on late. Whereas Colin, the Grim Reaper, Logan's bodyguard, comes in. Just an incredibly important season one, episode ten performance. Comes in and gets

Kendall super evil. We see him again during when Kendall's playing the music when he's trying to fuck up Shiv's speech. Comes in super menacing. but then we had the crazy dinner scene with him and Logan and then who was the most upset that Logan died it might have been him

it was like his best friend Kendall brings him back in the fold I get a bodyguard yeah no that's a good pick I get a bodyguard so I'm gonna take him as my last pick who do you have Charles oh man yeah we are getting low That's a good pick. That's a good value pick. I get a bodyguard, so I'm going to take him as my last pick. Who do you have, Charles? Oh, man.

Yeah, we are getting low on the totem pole here. Well, can I give the audience who's left? Yes. For your last pick. Jess. Oscar, Madsen's right-hand guy who blew smoke in Greg's face. I fuck with him. I loved Oscar. Ebba, the head of communications for Madsen

Yeah Rava Yeah the Kendall's ex-wife You can have Roman's season one girlfriend Who Roman would have sex with Yeah whatever she was You could have the dead waiter

You could have Naomi Pierce You could have the dead waiter. You could have Naomi Pierce. You could have Rhea Jewel. You could have Nate. Comfrey. Nate is good. Nate Shiv. Or you could have Gil. Gil, whatever.

The Eric Bogosian character. You didn't pick Jess, right? No, you could. I think Jess is the right pick. I think I'm picking Jess. Every single time she's on the screen i'm just like oh yeah jess like home girl like shit i love you i'm going with jess she's also part of probably a top five scene uh when kendall's just like i might have killed

someone uh so i gotta go with jess okay so here's here's who we have. Charles, your team. Kendall, Jerry, Stewie, Greg, Marsha, Jess. You had Hugo, right? No, I had Frank and Willa. Van had Hugo. Frank and Willa. All right, that's your team. Van, you had Logan, Mencken, Shiv. Oh, nobody took Nan Pierce either. Mattson, Lisa, Arthur, Hugo, the Adrian Brody character, and Carrie.

And then I have Tom, Roman, Connor, Lady Caroline, Carolina, Carl, Ewan, and the Grim Reaper Cerruti come on in tell us who won Fuck y'all I won I gotta agree I thought Shiv was a reach Unfortunately apologies to you man

I promise you I'm not kissing ass here people are gonna think Carl is the steel of the draft field That dude is hysterical his my favorite my favorite line one of my favorite lines in the show is when they're in what was it Turkey and they're like in that hostage situation and he just says I don't want to alarm anybody but I'm currently having a panic attack he is underratedly I think the one of the funniest characters in the entire show so Bill for that I'll give you the nod but man I just the

ship thing really hurts you I'm'm sorry. It's fine. That was like when the Lions took that running back 12. Yeah, great. He could be great. But it's just like not valuable there. Not valuable. Wow. It's the hate for Shiv. I got a bona fide Roy potential heir.

And no one. Okay, cool. I'll ride with you, Shiv. Listen, as always, it's going to be left up to the people who are totally rational. The people on YouTube and Twitter and Reddit. I'm sure they'll have some thoughts on the draft.

Fellas, thanks to Rudy. Fellas, enjoy the season finale. Thanks to Charles and thanks to Vin. If you want to hear them argue about the Ringerverse and the Marvel movies and all the... What's the next big movie coming out? Are they still making Marvel movies? The Flash.

Shut up. Have David Sazlov, did he send you The Flash with Tom Cruise as well? Did they CGI the guy out of there who was getting in all the trouble or is he still in it? No, no. He's still zooming around. Ezra, whatever? No, no, they are. They still

are zooming around. They still are zooming around. Okay, make sure. It'll be a whole fucking thing piece. They, like they, it's a huge thing. We've covered it on the Ringiverse, but the next one is the animated Spider-Man movie, right? Yeah, Spider-Verse. Spider-Verse is coming out.

Alright, thanks fellas for coming on. I appreciate it. All right. Yeah. All right. Thanks, fellas, for coming on. I appreciate it. No problem. Appreciate you, Bill. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rob Mahoney.

Thanks to Van Lathan and Charles Holmes. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerruti. I will see you on this feed on Sunday. And I will see you on the Prestige TV podcast at some point late Sunday night reacting to the series finale of Succession.

Enjoy the weekend. Go Suncoast. I don't have On the wayside