The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Comeback Clippers, Superstar Trae, and KD’s Brilliance With Seerat Sohi and Jackie MacMullan

Episode Date: June 25, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Seerat Sohi to discuss the Clippers' Game 3 win over the Suns (3:00). Then Bill talks with Jackie MacMullan about newly anointed NBA star Trae Young and how he's evolved as a teammate (35:00), what the future holds for Ben Simmons (53:00), and the NBA coaching carousel, including Rick Carlisle to the Pacers, Ime Udoka to the Celtics, the Mavericks' head coach vacancy, and more (1:11:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Jackie MacMullan and Seerat Sohi Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if the Len Bias story, hosted by Jordan Ritter-Khan, is The Ringer's latest narrative podcast? You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Len Bias. 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, this is What If, the Lynn Bias story.

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as well as the Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatchables went up on Monday. Brian Koppelman and I did Stripes. We have an all- went up on Monday. Brian Koppelman and I did Stripes. We have an all-timer coming on Monday. One of the best movies of the last 30 years. That will be your hint. Took four people to tackle

the movie that we are doing on Monday night. Coming up, going to talk about Sons Clips Game 3 at the top. And then the Hall of Famer Jack McMullen talking about this amazing Trae Young. Just everything that's happened with Trae Young, as well as we did some, where does Ben Simmons go? Some coaching stuff.

And then a deep dive into Durant that I really enjoyed. So that is all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 8.45 Pacific time. Clippers just beat the Suns. They're now down 2-1 in the series. More importantly, Syrit Sohi is here. And with the greatest hockey day in Canada in 28 years,

I feel like it's such a privilege to have a Canadian on when the Canadians are finally taking it back. Man, it's been 28 years. Here you go. They're back. They're in the finals. You're not even from Montreal and you're excited. I'm so excited. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. I didn't, I didn't find out about this from a text message from you by any means. Like it's, it's all over. It's all over the place. It's like totally a part of my life. I think, I do think it's funny that America has won 20, basically every Stanley Cup since 1994.

Yeah, but who wins them, though? Who wins them? Canadians go win them. Fair. Fair, but not the Canadian teams. Not the cities that care the most about hockey, but maybe it'll happen this year. Yeah, but look, okay, so I work at the Ringer. Yeah. There's no Ringer in Canada.

So all of my, does that make all of anything I do at the ringer. There's no ringer in Canada. So does that make all of anything I do at the site, does that just belong to America now? I can't have any I can't like, you know, be a source of pride for Canadians. Not that I am or ever will be, but you know just a possibility. Should there be a ringer

in Canada? I kind of like the way that sounds. Yeah, you know what? Let's talk about it. Yeah, we'll talk about that after the podcast. Let's talk about that. Vancouver Grizzlies podcast. Clips Sons. So there was a couple moments here when it was like, oh my God, the Clips are going to

clipper it up and they're going to blow this and here we go. All the Clip baggage is coming in, but it never really happened. Then you look at the box score after and Chris Paul and Devin Booker were 10 for 40. So that's a good start if you're the Clippers. More importantly, my theory on the Clippers is one of Reggie Jackson or Marcus Morris has to look good every game.

So that happened. Reggie Jackson was good. Terrence Mann does this thing where once a quarter in these Staples playoff games, he turns into Teen Wolf. He was incredible. And Paul George lit up the box score, even though he had a bad third quarter. But they were just better tonight. And it's always funny to me.

I'm older than you, so I've seen a lot of playoff series. The home team's supposed to win in the playoffs. So the Suns go up 2-0 and everybody's like, oh, they got it. It's done. They're favored tonight. Do you know they're favored? They were minus one tonight. And it's like, the series doesn't start

until a home team loses. I don't know. I just thought the Clips were going to win tonight. What did you expect? I didn't expect the Clippers to win tonight. Really? Yeah, no. I felt like Chris Paul coming back

was going to be just a death blow. They were obviously going to have just just the death blow you know like they were obviously going to have to adjust to adjust to whatever else but it just the suns looked so good um they were just flowing better and i think yeah i probably became a little bit of a prisoner of that moment because like what happens is role players end up playing well at home and you think that that's going to translate um and it doesn't necessarily we'll say the suns role players are usually more consistent than like your average role players but like honestly just like kudos to the clippers man they shouldn't be here like they shouldn't have won game six in against utah they shouldn't have won game seven they probably shouldn't have won this game uh it looked like not not that they

didn't execute but just looking at what their team is, everyone is just playing out of their minds right now. Paul George, kudos to Paul George. We now have to shut up about him for a little while. He could have made those free throws. Those could have gone in. One of those could have gone in, maybe. It would have definitely turned the complexion of the series.

It still kind of really matters a lot. He made up for it tonight, at least really did he really did and like they just they get these guys to step up at the right moments like terrence mann stepped up in like first of all like the most pivotal moment in clippers history at this point um and then they get like i went i went into that that uh that second half thinking like these guys need somebody to step up. Paul was playing really well, but nobody did. And somebody did. And that's just been their playoff story.

They're playing incredibly well. It's just, it's awesome everyone stepping up. They also, I don't know what the track record is when somebody makes a half-court shot heading into halftime. But it does feel like that's the greatest sign ever when that happens. We should get Zach Cram to look that up.

That would be, that would be interesting. It's, it just feels like, and you always, some, it always makes me feel like it's going to either come back to play later. Like they're going to be up to, and you'd be like, oh man, remember when they made that or it's, or it's some momentum shift or something, but they, it felt like things had slipped away a little for them near the end of the second quarter and the Suns had taken command, all that stuff. And George wasn't playing that well

down the stretch of the second quarter. And then he made that one. And you go, oh, okay. Maybe, you know, and then that was it. But you know what's a big underrated injury here? Was the campaign only playing four minutes because you have COVID Chris Paul and he's been really quiet about, you know, whether he had symptoms or not, stuff like that. But I just know from Tatum on the Celtics where it just

didn't seem like he was right for a month, you know, and I don't think they intended to have Chris Paul playing 39 minutes tonight when he hasn't been playing for a week and a half. But pain goes out. So all of a sudden that depth that the Suns quote unquote had, that was pretty flimsy where now you have Cam Johnson plays 30 minutes, Craig and Sarge, and that's really it. But all of a sudden they seem a little thin. Then you have Brooker with the broken nose mask on, the schnozzeroo, as I used to call it there in the Rip Hamilton thing.

And he didn't seem right either. So now you look at game four coming up and you think like, man, if Kawhi can come back for that one on top of some of these other injuries and other things the Suns have, this could be 2-2 in 48 hours. Yeah, the campaign injury, like I think that really killed their third quarter.

Totally. That was a big stretch because Chris Paul was out of the game. He was really out of rhythm for most of the game he wasn't yeah he it felt like I mean I'm curious what you think about the the pace because they were playing really fast and then Chris Paul comes back and they really slowed it down and I actually usually I get that because they're a really good half court team and I think that in most games like the Clippers half court it felt like they'd kind of figured them out in the half court you know like it was pat beverly open shots

which you live with everything's funneling to that but they made them pretty perimeter based but then you know the suns just kind of got out of control uh in the third quarter just you know they did they had they had both of those guys out at a certain point then they had to get booker back in the game because he had foul trouble like that was just that was a nightmare third quarter for them um but yeah like that that to me like that got them going in transition and I don't know if it's it's it's a series now that physicality too of the Clippers was was amazing like I just feel like they came out and were a completely different team after after the second half um I like the pace way more for the Clippers in this game like the Suns took 90 shots I want the Suns 90 plus shots. I like the pace way more for the Clippers in this game.

Like the Suns took 90 shots. I want the Suns 90 plus shots if I'm the Clippers. Because the Suns seem like they're at their best when they slow it down. You could feel it in those Phoenix games. It was exactly the pace they wanted in those games where they really love like the half court and just to kind of surgically dissect you. And the Clippers are at

their best when it's like chaos three pointers um ball moving around luke canard suddenly in the corner and when it's frenetic i think that's what they like and i think the sons are the opposite they don't want frenetic yeah i mean it's chris paul definitely doesn't want frenetic it's a control freak yeah um i zubat and zubat and uh and and aiden okay you know what how do i pronounce his name i've been saying it for zubats i love calling him zubat as you know i have pronunciation dyslexia but um it is zubats okay okay we're good okay thank you um zubats uh aiden is like controlling who plays in these games i know it's kind of crazy in a way that ruda gobert could not no no no um but fourth quarter well first of all there was the whole

first half like any the adjustment in general to have have zubach be the starter um smart yeah and you have to do that because of ayton and it like there are times where their small lineup looks good for the clippers, but they just can't play against Aiton. There's a stretch in the fourth quarter when it looked like the Clippers were going to maybe fall apart, where Aiton got a couple of offensive rebounds.

Ty Lue, who's been also just crushing it, calls an immediate timeout, gets Zu in the game, and then it's just smooth sailing again. But they just really stepped up to the physicality of of the suns like they're they're crashing the boards with them also isn't this weird like i feel like offensive rebounding really matters right now um and that's not a turn that i don't think i don't think anybody saw that coming but like both of these you know that hawk sixer series offensive rebounding was was critical in that series

um game one with the bucks like john collins and cape offensive rebounding was critical in that series. Game one with the Bucs, like John Collins and Capella rebounding. And then this series is controlled by the fact that if you don't go big, Aiton's going to get on the glass. Yeah, it's weird. The playoffs go in these little cycles where sometimes teams just throw away offensive rebounds completely to get back. Milwaukee was even doing that in the Brooklyn series before they realized like, wait a second, this is

the biggest advantage we have. Why are we not crashing the boards? And they flipped it and started doing that. And I agree with you. I thought that was the biggest thing in the Atlanta game last night was they were able to get these second chances. Stuff like that. You know what? So Zubat's placed 33 minutes

and outplayed Ziton tonight. Although if I test wise, they seem pretty even, but his stats are better. And he ended up with 16 rebounds, 6 offensive. I think that's a fair assessment. Yeah. But I didn't think Aiton was bad. I think he's been good in all these games. I think Z stepped up, man. Z just stepped up. That's it.

Aiton has been really good. But the thing that was important, and I don't know if this is going to transfer, because I think this was Chris Paul's COVID comeback game. Ultimately, if it's like a game seven and he's getting Zubats and switches 25 feet from the basket, I just feel like he's going to toast him.

He didn't do it tonight. And he even did the desperation, missed the three and then kicked his legs out trying to get the foul thing, which I think should be an offensive foul when guys do that. I think it might be soon. It might be. Maybe next year.

But I feel like by game seven, that's what they'll be hunting, is how can we get Chris Paul and Zubats. They're going to try to play Zubats off the floor. Do you think the series goes seven? I've felt that way the whole time. I wasn't scared by... House and I did a pod Tuesday. We were looking at the series odds,

and I think Clips in seven was 11-1, and we both thought that was tasty. I just think the Clips... We learned the last two rounds. They have a really good coach who really understands what his roster is and who to play. They can kind of be malleable series to series,

and I just think they're going to be a hard out. Even if they're down 3-1 in this series, I still feel like they could win a game five and keep the series going. And they're really hard to play because of all the threes. Like they, they still haven't had like the hot shooting three point game. They're only 12 for 34 today. So that could be, you know, when's the next game? Saturday night? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So that could be Saturday night. So I don't know. I think the teams are pretty even. I thought after I came back from game six

and I thought the Clippers could win the title if Kawhi came back in time. But that's the big if. They showed him. Did you see him in the luxury box tonight? Yeah, yeah. Super excited. So why is he in the luxury box?

Van Gundy brought this up and I thought it was a really interesting point. Did he not want us to see his leg? Could he not stand on it? That's interesting. I thought, I thought JVG was maybe

like calling bullshit on the idea that like Kawhi's been so involved the whole time because he was like, yeah, like, it was a little bit a little bit concerned

trolly from. I thought it was a dig from him. I thought he was kind of like why isn't that guy with his team but he was just asking questions yeah my take was like i feel like maybe he's doesn't want us to see him limping around because they want to create the illusion that he might play oh okay okay well sometimes uh you know especially with an injury like that sometimes guys just don't like being on the bench because they're afraid that they might get re-injured somehow if something happens.

He's also with his family. Maybe he just wants to watch the game with his family. Maybe it means he's going back to Toronto. Who knows? Toronto. Well, it's the year of Canada. This game turns, the Clips had a 21-3 run

in the third quarter. And that's when it flips. And I do feel like if Cameron Payne doesn't get hurt, I do think they would have gone small ball to try to match what the Clippers were doing. Because now the Clippers can play three guards. They can do all these different things

and try to mess with them that way. So we'll see what happens. The campaign thing, I think is one of the, there's been a lot of strange subplots this year with the leading one being that Trey Young is now a super duper star. I did not see that one coming, but campaign going from OKC cheerleader, handshake guy, bounce around the league guy to becoming this like incredibly valuable playoff piece where it's like, oh my God, campaigns hurt. I wonder if they're going to be able to survive this like incredibly valuable playoff piece where it's like, oh my God, campaigns hurt. I wonder if they're going to be able to survive.

This is just mind boggling to me. I mean, he's being guarded by Paul George now for the second game in a row. It's just incredible. And he also, he's also really big in terms of like the chess match of having Zubach out there because he's, he can like pretty consistently beat him to the rim. They a bit of a battle like you know zoo got the big

one on him in in game two um and he blocked him uh this time too but it's definitely like a reliable attack and also man like he's just so fast uh i was talking to koc about this a little while ago do you think that like the small guard might be back because oh yeah like he like these guys can just beat every switch right like everyone's switching everybody knows how to defend most guys but like the small guard is kind of like at the extremity it's kind of what dennis schroeder was supposed to be uh but like man like like the clippers literally didn't have an answer for campaign like we were joking about it i think it was me and rob recording it after but like they literally didn't and like those are kind of like the weird chess matches that a lot of these playoff series can hinge on like it can kind of come down to strange stuff

like that um so yeah i think it's a big loss honestly you also you feel it if you root for a team that doesn't have guys like that like i had the celtics all year who just occasionally pritchard might do it where he might have one driving layup or something or, and you'd be like, Oh wow, that's what that looks like when your team is able to do that. But it really is like glaring if your team doesn't have a guy like that now

because I just, the way the sports played and the fact that the no hand checking all that stuff. Um, I see, I I'm even going to flip it further. I just wonder, we had this stretch,

really the whole LeBron Duran era and then Kawhi, where you think the way to win a title, in the old days, it was get a center. Now it's like you need this 6'8 perimeter guy. You need the Jason Tatum,

that generation type. And now I wonder, maybe Trae Young is the new model. Maybe having these six foot one, Dame Lillard, Trae Young, Curry's 6'3", but these perimeter guards who can shoot threes, create for other guys, and just consistently play bigs off the floor over and over again. Maybe that's the future of the league. We have a couple of those guys coming in the draft too. And maybe that's just where it's going. We have a couple of those guys coming in the draft too. And maybe that's just where it's going.

Whereas in the old days, it's like, oh my God, we have Joel Embiid. We drafted him. This is a franchise center. And now it's like, maybe you need a franchise guard.

Yeah. Yeah. It's the thing with Trey that's really interesting. That's like, the thing has always been that those guys get worn out. Like that's always been the reason that supposedly Chris Paul has never made it far in the playoffs

right is that eventually something happens and CP like you know he does end up dealing with a man like a number of injuries throughout the playoffs I think it's consistent enough that yeah like that I imagine that has something to do with it just taking all those hits over and over again thing with Trey is like he just, he has an endless motor. I know. Like, the Bucks were like, we want to make you beat us. And he was like,

okay, bet. Sure. Like, I'll just score every floater. That's fine. I can just do it over and over again. As he snarled at all of them. I wonder, Goldsberry wrote about this

a few months ago that he thought the floater was the next, you know, impactful generational addition of a shot, which I thought was, you know, impactful generational addition of a shot, which I thought was, you know, it seemed like an ambitious angle, but at the same time, like he might be right because the way Trey has used these floaters to basically, like he played Lopez off the floor

in a quarter, you know, and, and you think like, that is like when you have the threes plus the floater and these big guys are so afraid to foul them on those floaters and it quickly turns into the alley-oop and it just feels like that's, Trey is going to lead all these disciples that are going to play like him the same way Curry had all of his disciples 10 years ago. Yeah, I mean, Trey is kind of a Curry disciple in and of itself too. Just like a little bit more, a little more hardened, I guess, as well. But yeah, it's super interesting. I don't know. I don't know what I would rather have now,

whether I'd rather have the 6'8 guy or the 6'1 guy. Because I would think like, when you see even what somebody like Paul George is doing, it just seems a safer durability bet, the 6'8 guy, because he can defend, you can switch with him on the perimeter. You want like the 6'8 guy who puts up to 27, 8, and 8. Like Paul

George tonight, he was 27, 15, and 8. And that's in my head, that's like, this is the one guy you need on a basketball court now. But then you watch Trey beat the Bucs by himself last night, and then I don't know anymore and Trey is I mean Trey is just so specific I think um I think I'd rather still have the 6'8 guy usually ultimately like what we're talking about is really just like who is the best player like for a while Curry was the best player so that was a formula LeBron was 6'8 so that's a formula right so like with with Trey um it's not just a motor. Like now that I think about it, it's like traps too. He has every pass. Like he has literally every pass you could possibly have.

Like he has a wraparound behind the back. Like he'll nutmeg guys and he sees like every angle. He can like, he can get it into a shooter's pocket behind the back from the other side of the court. And that's kind of what makes a difference with Trey. Like otherwise you'd be able to trap him. and i think you could do to him like the things that you do to dame um even though i mean like dames dames a great passer but like he's not a trade level no he's he's a fine passer he's not he's a fine and trey trey is also like another

thing for his size that you shouldn't be able to do is like he carries the guys with him like if he can he can get a trap he's not like afraid of getting banged up by it he'll just drive right or try to beat it and like i don't know anyway it's not a young podcast but uh no but he's he does have that iverson quality of it that it doesn't seem like he gets hurt he's he's just down he's back up that's it yeah yeah i just like it's it's just crazy my mom is like my mom is watching the playoffs with me now. Like she'll usually like tune in and she is utterly shocked by Trey. Like she just can't believe that he exists in the NBA. And she's just, it makes her so happy that, you know, somebody who is, you know, as skinny as him is getting the opportunity.

She's like, she's like, she's like literally like the mainstream fan that is like, look how small he is. And like, he's such an underdog. Right. Just like, there is something to that, that is always going to make a guy like Trey appealing to literally like my mom. I did the mom test. She also has only watched Paul George in Game 7 and this game.

So I don't really know what to do with that information. I'm just kind of waiting to see what happens. What do you think quickly, what do you think happens in that series? Because you know Milwaukee is going to adjust and Jack and I are about to talk about in a second, so I don't want to go into it too deep. But if you, like, do you think happens in that series? Because you know Milwaukee is going to adjust and Jack and I are about to talk about it in a second so I don't want to go into it too deep. Do you think that was an anomaly game?

I don't think it was an anomaly. Because this is a real series. And I think that that's the biggest thing. A lot of people have not really been watching the Hawks it feels like. And they've had the best record in the league,

I think, like, after the All-Star break, right? And they're just really good, and they have a ton of guys who can score. They keep getting better. And they're just, like, perfectly formulated around Trey. Like, to me, it's just, like, how much longer can Trey keep doing that? And also, like, can they figure some of those other guys in if you know if if the Bucks keep one if the Bucks decide to go back to that I was surprised that they didn't stick with it because I feel like the reason you kind of have a guy like Trey score as many points in the first half is to like just make him keep doing it I feel

like it was a mistake in the second half to adjust even though he was beating them with it because I think like it was a close game at the time. I think it would have worked. Anyway. Yeah, I think, I mean, the Bucs should win this series, right? I just think it's going to be real. I would say, I'd say Bucs in six. That's what I had before. I didn't make a pick,

but the only, when House and I did our thing on Tuesday night, I was just like, I would not bet the Bucs minus 500. That seems crazy to me. Seems like an even series. I, the, I would not bet the Bucs minus 500. That seems crazy to me. Seems like an even series. The thing I worry about with the Bucs is are they just not that good? If Kyrie doesn't get hurt,

that series is over in like five or six. Coach Bud is fired and we're not even talking about the Bucs. That did kind of save his job. It really did. They almost lost to the Nets without Kyrie and with Jumbo James Harden

huffing and puffing around on one leg and they still barely got by them. And I think it's a really bad sign. It's also a bad sign that the Nets defense could do such a good job against them. They scored way more points

last night, but I could actually see both of these going seven. Yeah. Yeah, it could. It definitely could. Which, which would just drag

this whole thing out. Then that means the finals wouldn't start till July 8th. We'd be going all the way through till July 22nd, something like that. Draft right away. Then all of a sudden we're going to the way through till July 22nd, something like that, draft right away. Then all of a sudden we're going to the Olympics and we can watch Kevin Love in the 2021 Olympic team.

That was bizarre. So will Booker have to, let's say the Suns win game seven, the finals. I posited this on Twitter, including Chris Paul in this scenario before. But there's kind of a legendary scenario where Devin Booker wins Game 7 of the NBA finals, gets on a red-eye to Japan,

travels backwards in time with a Larry O'Brien trophy in his hand and wins the Olympics. Like, I'm trying to manifest that. Wow. Yeah. It's July 22nd, and then the Olympics

start July 23rd. You broke my brain there for a second. I see. I think he wins game seven and then bows out of the Olympics

because he has to get plastic surgery on his broken nose. He waited until after the finals. After you break the nose, you have to tour with the nose.

You can't get surgery on it until late, right before training camp. No, it's the summer with the nose. Oh, you do? You can't get surgery on it until late, like right before training camp. No, it's the summer. It's going to be too late. That thing's just going to stay like it is. Then you're Devin Booker, you're a champion. You're like, it's not going to affect his life if his nose is like that. He's Devin Booker.

He'll probably, he'll get advice from one of the Kardashians or something on how to, how to do some, some fixing at some point. I don't know. We'll see what happens. It's far-fetched to me that somebody would come from game seven and go right to the Olympics. I just feel like they must have backup guys

last second that are going to step in just in case. That's a lot of basketball. Plus, the finals are like, that's like playing two games for every game, right? If you're in like game six of the finals, that's like a double game. Yeah. Mentally, physically, all that stuff. It's going to be fascinating. It's going to be a lot of basketball. I had the last question for you, then we'll go. Is your generation, I'm going to say you, your generation, is Trey Young kind of becoming a basketball hero for that generation?

Because you needed like a 25 and under somebody. Could it be him? I'm not 12. Well, you're in your 20s. I don't know what people are doing in the black tops. I don't know. I really don't. I'll talk to my nephew about it sometimes.

He's like a big basketball fan. But he's more, I think this is the thing now. It's all about highlights and stuff. So he follows like overtime and he's just following high school hoopers. And he's like like I was like speculating on on Michael Mikey Williams about him. Like that's that's like kind of like what we talk about. But that's him. So I don't know.

I don't know. I feel like I feel like young people don't watch sports. I feel like a lot of them are like my son who just see stuff on TikTok and Instagram unless they're actually at the game. And Trey's perfect for that, right? Like the shimmy three is like the perfect TikTok moment. And I'm wondering like, is he just going to be

the same way Curry for the previous generation was like the Twitter generation, Steph Curry, the threes and all that stuff. Like I wonder if Trey will become like the face of this generation. Yeah. I don't know. What do your kids think?

Are they really into Trey? My son is fascinated by some of the Trey highlights, but still is like, I think Zion has his heart still. I still feel like Zion can take that generation. But then the 20s, I don't know. I mean, that was what I was asking you about, like the young adults. I don't know who they're gravitating toward right now, because you think like, it was LeBron for a long time. Curry had kind of a moment. And then I don't know who is going to be the next generational person yeah I

mean LeBron like for me it's always been LeBron um but that's gonna end yeah right but the thing is like we haven't had to until this moment even think about that true I've had I've been able to ride with LeBron from the time that I was actually a kid. And I've been, you know, doing this in some capacity for a number of years and he is still LeBron James. So it's just not something that has really come up. There's like, there was a Curry moment in between those years, but. No Kobe stuff in there? Not for me. Yeah. For some though.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's, that was always the argument in high school. I was, I was LeBron side and like, you know, whoever i was arguing against was the kobe side i'd find all of them yeah but yeah so i don't know i guess we'll have to think about it i'll check in with you from in like a month or two i'll see if it became trey and luca considering they were traded for each other morons like me were saying it was the dumbest trade of all time and meanwhile trey has a better chance to make the finals than Luka does. I mean, that's just like, that's just like how we treat young players now too.

Me and Chris are actually talking about that tomorrow. What? Talking about like, you know, what do we do with the fact that all these young players are now, you know, making deep runs in the playoffs, like they're actually playoff ready. Like that changes the developmental timelines and stuff.

Like Luka, for example. The Mavs weren't ready for Luka to be this good, right? No. He was the first guy that ended up being this good this fast. Now you have Trey, and they've coalesced nicely. But I think you might see a little bit different team building. But we'll explore that tomorrow. What do you think?

All right. I think it ties into just what these guys are like when they enter the league in general. Because I've been saying this for a few years. I'm just amazed how polished they are on and off the court compared to when I was growing up or when I loved the league or in the 80s or even the 90s. When these guys came in, they seemed so young. And you would watch them kind of mature into adults over a few years in the league, even in interviews and the way they handled themselves and all kinds of situations. Now these guys come in and they're like their own brand, their own company. They know how to

handle the media. And I just don't understand it. I constantly amazed by it it's it is amazing honestly like how young some of these players are um like devin booker seems like he's 35 and what is he 24 yeah he plays like it too he plays like he has been there many many times before and you know what though like a guy like devin booker these guys if they want to study the opportunity to study has never been greater um they have access to everything and he's a guy who's like used it and now he's using it like just straight from the source with chris paul so that probably contributes to it too like just the evolution of information that's available to people well and also when when you're a kid and you're growing up and

everyone's teaching you how to shoot the right way by the time you're eight in the AAU and all that stuff. Yeah. And his dad was a pro, too. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear that conversation, you and Chris. Clippers, Suns, I say it goes seven. I really do think the Clippers can beat them. Hawks, Bucks, I have no idea.

I'm prepared for anything. You can tell me any scenario, I'd believe it. You can tell me the Hawks are going to sweep the Bucks. I wouldn't argue with it. I don't know what's going to happen, but I personally, I love these playoffs. I really like how weird they are. Some people are upset. There's not more stars than I thought. I'm like, this is great. I love that Hawks Bucs game last night. Get acclimated, man. These are stars. Yeah. All right. Sarah, good to see you. We'll, we'll hear you on a ringer and biggest show with Chris. And congratulations on a great Canadian hockey moment.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go celebrate. All right. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

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you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. We're taping this. It is three o'clock Pacific time. So it's before eclipse suns, but we are going to be able to cover everything else. Jackie McMullen is here. She did a Trey Young story a few months ago. This is before I did my, I didn't do a 180 on Trey Young, but I just didn't see it. I didn't. Well but I just didn't see it. I didn't see it. I

didn't see it. I didn't see the light, but you were, you, we argued, I think on this podcast about it and you were really passionate. You're like, this kid's got something. And I didn't see it. I didn't think it was possible to build a team that could actually win the finals around the stuff that he did. Um, do you, do you think he's changed or do you think that we're just seeing what he could do the whole time? A little of both. I honestly think you got to look at McMillan, Nate McMillan, when they hired him.

You know, they're 14 and 20 before McMillan gets there. But the most important thing is like for everything that Trey can do, and he can do everything. Think about it. He could score from half court. You know, he's got Curry range. He he's got that floater, which has become one of the most devastating offensive weapons in the game right now, because he goes to the basket and you're like right up until the final second, no one knows.

Is he going to do the floater or is he going to give that alley-oop to, to Clint Capella or John Collins? I mean, he paralyzes defenses with it so he could penetrate he draws fouls we know that and he can shoot free throws he's an 85 86 free throw shooter but i think the biggest change is what he's been doing with his teammates now you can say um bogey came back you know bogey was out deandre hunter was out and back and now out again. Gallinari was out for a while. So now you've got those shooters around him. And I think Nate McMillan, and I'm actually have a story running tomorrow about this is

the one that finally convinced him. Like, look, you're, you're, you know, you're a great talent, but if you really want to get where you want to go, like you're mad, you're not an all-star you're mad. You're not an all NBA selection. You got to win dude, because that's when those things come. And if you want to win, you got to find a way to remember to keep these other guys involved. And one of the things Nate did was he showed him film of Trey coming, you know, dribbling up, crossing half court, shooting from the logo, and the expression on his teammates' faces. And, you know, sometimes I don't think you're a young guy. Trey's 22. He's used to having that boulder on his teammates' faces. And, you know, sometimes I don't think you, if you're a young guy, trace 22,

he's used to having that boulder on his shoulder. He's trying to convince everybody that he belongs. Well, everybody knows you belong, but if you really want to fit in, you make everybody around you better. And if you look at the numbers, he's averaging 10 and a half assists in this postseason. That to me is so much more significant than the points.

I'm just, I'm stating the obvious, I think, in that regard. It's something that I could have seen happening four years from now as he got older and he lost for a few more years and all that stuff. I can't remember another star basketball player having the light bulb go off mid-season

because I think he's a really good teammate now too. And what you're saying about what Nate did when he showed him the expressions, his team rallies around him now. I don't feel like they did that really until the coaching change. I felt like he was on an island. He was going to do his own thing. And as talented as he was, I just didn't feel like he was part of something. And now you mentioned Bogdanovich earlier, and that was when this flipped,

when Bogdanovich comes back and Nate McMillan showed up, but now Bogdanovich is gone. Like they beat the Bucks. They beat Bogdanovich. He's on one leg. They beat Milwaukee with Solomon Hill playing like big minutes. I know. And he played well too.

But Trey was able to navigate the game. He was so spectacular in the third quarter. And he basically played Lopez on the court. And now we're in a situation with that series, which we'll talk about later where it's like each team now has an Achilles heel and it be, it will become an Achilles heel contest at some point. But I think there's two things with him. I talked about one of them last week, but I'm going to rerun it. Um, just like the little guy being the toughest guy in the court thing, which is so rare, but has such a cool legacy, right? It was why Isaiah Thomas won two titles.

Yeah. It was why Iverson willed a team to the finals. It was why Danny Ainge was willing to trade two first rounders and Al Jefferson for Iverson even in 2006. There's just not a lot of guys like this. We kind of skipped a generation. Nash was kind of the,

he inherited it from Iverson, like the toughest nails point guard, but Nash is 6'3". I don't, you've stood next to Trey. He might be 6'1", max. Maybe. Six feet. Maybe.

But toughest guy on the court. So you have that. But then there's this performer element that he's bringing into this stuff. And he's better on the road the same way you covered some incredible bird games in the 80s, where bird love nothing more than to just go to Seattle and just be like this is my one time I'm here I'm shutting everyone down I feel like Trey Legs being on the road almost more

than home and the stuff he was doing last night in Milwaukee where there's like a defiance to him that is just so cool I'm so glad it's back because I felt like the NBA was missing just a little something like Jason Tatum doesn't have that quality. Booker has it a little bit.

Mitchell has it a tiny bit, but not really. But Trey, this is like who he is. And watching the game last night, Reggie Miller, I'm rambling. Reggie Miller was so delighted because you could see Reggie Miller was like, this is like having my grandson out here. This is like all the stuff I used to do. So anyway, I don't know if I saw that side coming either. So I just gave you a lot to work with. Let's go with the little guy thing first, Thomas Iverson.

Yeah. Right. And the little guy thing is so real. And anyone that's ever even played, I would say this is even true, like in pickup basketball, in any town, city, rucker park, anywhere, the little guy has to be so much smarter, so much better, so much more arrogant, or he can't succeed. He just really can't. And Trey Young got that from the very, you know, I mean, I did that long story on him a few months ago. And my favorite story from that, that whole thing was, so, you know, a new coach moves to town in Norman, Oklahoma. And they're like, he's like, oh, I want to run some summer league stuff for the, for the varsity. Who should I invite? And they're like, well, you know a new coach moves to town in Norman Oklahoma and they're like he's like oh I want to run some summer league stuff for the for the varsity who should I invite and they're like well you know here are the returning players and yeah there's this eighth grader he thinks he's hot

shit you know we're not really sure how good he is but you know you should probably invite him and be entertained to have him and so Trey Young's in the eighth grade okay he's in the eighth grade he hasn't even in high school yet. He shows up at this summer workout that he, you know, almost wasn't invited to you. And the first thing he does is go to the front of the line and they're all looking at him like, you know, get the hell out of here. And they send them to the back and everyone kind of has a good laugh. And then the next day he shows up and he does it again. Because see the thing about Ty young is it's not an act he really believes and has believed his entire life that he's the best player even even when he was playing against kevin durant

his idol his childhood idol you know westbrook those guys you know was he in a little awe of them sure he was but the but the fact remains he truly believes he can beat anybody. He truly believes he's the best. Now, the Sixers put Ben Simmons, first team runner-up, you know, in the Defensive Player of the Year voting. Now, you know, Ben Simmons did a decent job on him, but he didn't stop him because nobody stops him. Now, you come to this series, Drew Holiday, all defensive player, destroyed him. nobody stops him. Now you come to this series, Drew holiday, all defensive player destroyed him,

destroyed him. The only thing that kind of evened it off was drew destroyed him on the other end. Something that Trey still needs to work on, obviously, but he, he fights more on that end than he used to, I think,

but that's Nate McMillan too. I really do. I think Nate's like, look, I'm old school. Well, you'll read the story tomorrow. Everyone will read it tomorrow,

hopefully, but Nate McMillan's old school. And he's like, okay, I'm old school. Well, you'll read the story tomorrow. Everyone will read it tomorrow, hopefully. But Nate McMillan's old school, and he's like, okay, man, I'll meet you halfway. Like, I'll let you shimmy, you know, in someone else's gym in game one of a conference finals when we're not even, like, the game isn't over. I'll let you do that. But, man, you got to at least try on defense. Like, just give me a little bit of effort, a little bit of aggression. And you saw it in that game last night.

You know, he's guarding Giannis in the post for crying out loud. It did a pretty decent job. You know, made him take a turnaround fall away. Like, why isn't Giannis dunking on that kid's head? You know? And there were a couple of plays where he just, because he's quick, right? He can move. He sealed off the baseline from Drew Holiday.

Now, I'm not saying he did a great job on Drew Holiday. He did not, defensively. But he competed. And that's really, you know, that's all you ever ask. And Nick McMillan compared him to Steph Curry. I think it's a good comparison on the defensive end of the floor. Because that's what the Golden State does. They just ask for a little effort and a little hustle from Steph,

and then they hide him in their schemes. And that's what Atlanta's going to do. Can I just say one thing about the Hawks? Yeah. What about John Collins, man? You think he made himself a little bit of money? Well. He's another guy who really competes.

Oh, he is. That's like he's won me over in the playoffs because I really feel like he gives a shit. And especially in that Philly series, he was crashing the boards. And by the way, Capella was too. Capella made the biggest rebound and putback of the game yesterday. He did. A couple of those.

And those guys are really active and competitive. Yeah. And, you know, Capella understands exactly what he's there for, right? Capella's not going to be bitching about I need more shots. I need more touches. Get me the ball in the post. He knows exactly who he is, what he's supposed to do, and he does it extremely well. I think John Collins has had to fight through some of that a bit. He was there before Trey, right? And so he's still, I think for John, it's been a metamorphosis of sorts. For he and Trey. I think they've always been friends. I think they've always had a connection. I think they've battled like brothers and probably been unhappy with each other a lot of times, but I think they've both come around to each other. They need each other and they know it and they both want to win so badly. So I just don't think John Collins gets enough credit. Sometimes we talk so much about the shooters and it's been great. You know, bogey was great until he got hurt. Gallinari

had some really big moments in that Sixers series. You know? Right. But John Collins, man, they're not here without John Collins. He's a junkyard dog with talent. He made the biggest three of the game yesterday. He did. There was like five different points in that game when it seemed like Milwaukee had either won or was about to win and then

something would happen. And you look, you get done and you go, they had like 70 points in the paint. How did they not win? Well, they didn't win because they can't shoot threes. I mean, they shot 28% on uncontested threes in this game. Think about that. Uncontested threes. Middleton sucked too.

That was the other reason. Yeah, he was an 0 for 9 from the three-point line. I really wonder where this series goes because it took really a quarter for Milwaukee to realize what kind of a Lopez disadvantage that was with Trey. Right, right. But then on the flip side, Atlanta didn't seem like they could really find the right lineup either. And Solomon Hill has been like an 11th or 12th man for the last few years.

The fact that he's out there, you're missing Bogdanovich, they're missing... DeAndre Hunter. DeAndre Hunter and even Reddish. They had three different people they would have much rather been playing in that spot. And it just seems like as this series keeps going,

Milwaukee probably has three and a half players, depending on what they get from P.J. Tucker in a game that they're really going to be able to use in a series. And Atlanta might have four. So it's going to come down to Solomon Hill making a big shot in a game.

It's going to come down to Bryn Forbes scoring 10 in the fourth quarter. I just think it's going to be one of those series. The role players at some point are going to have to come through. But I can't believe this is

the Eastern Finals. I love it. It's great, right? It's really like this flawed, awesome series. And you know, I was at the grocery store the other day and there's this kind of cranky old guy that works at the grocery store and he's kind of gruff. And I walked in, I said, Hey, how are you this morning? Cause I know he loves the NBA. I gave him a shot. He wasn't interested. And then I'm leaving. I'm going to my car and he yells after me. No one's watching these playoffs. They're horrible. And I turn around. I said, well, why are you sad? He goes, no one's ever heard any of these guys. I said, well, why don't you sit down and watch? You might change your mind. So I saw him this morning and he's like, yeah, that little guy, you know, so it's like, right. If people just

give it a chance, it's, it's pretty entertaining. And it's's it is a little implausible and you know it your your brain tells you the milwaukee bucks should dominate the atlanta hawks that's what your brain tells you but that doesn't mean it's right and and you know there's i'll say one other thing about the atlanta hawks watch them they play hard they play badly sometimes but They play hard. They play badly sometimes, but they play hard all the time. And that's like, everyone's like, well, of course, duh. But that's a really hard thing to do, to play hard, pillar to post. Most teams don't do it. They just don't. Well, it's funny. It's a little reminiscent of the 17 and 18 Celtics teams. And the 17 Celtics team had- Yeah, that's a good comparison. Yeah.

They had Isaiah basically doing the Trey Young thing that year, but unfortunately for them, they're going against LeBron and Kyrie and Kevin Love in the Eastern Finals. And then in 18, they didn't have the Trey Young thing, but they played really hard and they really gave a shit the whole time.

You can get to the cusp, but you still need a guy. And I think what's interesting about this series for me, just House and I, we talked about it Tuesday night. We're trying, Miami, Milwaukee was like a minus 500 favorite. And both of us were like,

that's too high. See, I'm not a better, so I wouldn't know. Well, just like Atlanta could win this series. I don't know if I want to bet on it, but I don't want to bet against them either.

Right. And it's just like game to game. Trey could be the best player on the floor and he was last night, you know, and that's just kind of how he's been doing this. But, you know, we're almost out of teams here.

There's only four left. I know that's it. And it's really like, it's not inconceivable. We could just have like a 1978 Sonic situation where all of a sudden they're playing a game seven in the finals for a title. And everybody's like, what's happening? This team was 5-17 how did this happen and you know the usual lament when the bucks lose is like oh yannis yannis well yannis played great yannis did everything he

was supposed to do he even made free throws not all of them but most of them like i don't have any beef with what yannis did last night so that should really really worry the bucks because usually you're like, you know what? Giannis got, he fell in love with that three-point shot again. He's out in the perimeter again. He's not taking to the hole. None of that was true. I mean, I just said they had 70 points in the paint.

So if you're the Bucs, you're like, well, this isn't good. And, you know, I don't think you can play Brooke Lopez. I just don't think you can. Well, there's one play. If I'm the Bucs, so the Lopez thing is like the, oh shit, what do we do? How do we stagger his minutes so he's not getting straight? But if I'm a Bucs fan, there's one play. It's the Connett and Airball.

Yeah. I was so surprised. They kind of set the shot up for him too. And he did the Peja Stajkovic 2002 Lakers Kings game seven, just short-armed it. But that's the flaw of this team, right? Like at some point, your fourth guy, your fifth guy, your random, irrational, confident sixth guy, the Clippers have like seven of these guys.

And the Bucs, they just don't have them. And I don't even know if DeFincenzo was that guy. You know, like I know he was a loss just because he was going to eat up innings for them, but I'm not sure he would have made that shot either. I never felt like they had the guy. I think they're going to have to play Bryn Forbes in the series and just have him get killed on defense. Well, Bryn Forbes, as we know, gets streaky, streaky, streaky, white hot.

And he can do that for you. He absolutely can. Connaughton, that was surprising to me. I've always liked him maybe because he's, you know, he's a local kid, a kid that he actually went to high school with my nephew. You know, amazing, you know, work. He's the kind of guy you root for because he works so hard. He's self-made guy, makes all the hustle plays, all that. I mean, that was one of those uncontested threes we're

talking about. They missed. Do you think it was going in? I did not. I can't say that, but I didn't think it was an air ball. Did you? No, but I, it's pretty glaring. I'll tell you this. When you're in Milwaukee and they have the 50 years of baggage since they won in 71 and a game like that gets tight and Trey's kicking their ass, that crowd gets tight. There's definitely we've both been in buildings like that

where you can kind of feel the energy shift. Every game in Philly. Every game in Philly. It was unbelievable to me watching it. They were just like, this little punk cannot shred the process. Is he really going to do this? Are we going to be in ruins here? They just couldn't believe it.

It makes no sense. Did you go to game seven? No, I did not. I did not. My friend Mike Tolan was there, and I texted him at halftime, and I'm like, what's the crowd like? And he just texted back, angry did not. I did not. My friend Mike Tolan was there and I texted him at halftime and I'm like, what's the crowd like? And he just texted back, angry and scared.

Yeah, 100%. I was like, that's not good. Those are two bad qualities for a basketball crowd. And so now, you know, we've segued into Ben Simmons. Like, what the heck they do? What do you do if you have, you know, Ben Simmons? Let's do a break and then we'll segue into that. Okay.

All right. All right. All right, coming back. Yeah, you brought up Philly, the angry and scared Philly fans, the end of the process. I don't think it's any secret that they can say what they want. We're going to try to work this out.

He's a great asset, but they're going to trade him. And he's going to go somewhere. His agent is already involved. No surprise today, the story came out that obviously was leaked by him. He will be going somewhere. I'm not sure Clutch is going to be

deciding where Ben Simmons goes. Ultimately, Philly's going to do what's best for them. At the same time, if you're trading for Ben Simmons, you don't want him to be unhappy when he shows up. So that reduces the list of teams immediately. If you had to guess, where would you say this goes? So I think the one thing, the one component of this that people might be missing is as

much as maybe the Sixers are ready to move on from Ben Simmons, don't you think there's a good chance Ben Simmons is ready to move on himself? Well, maybe even after they try to trade him for Harden. They might have started then. But also, this guy got abused. He's been abused by his own fans in ways I can't really recall. For someone who was an all-star last year,

wasn't he an all-NBA player last year? I think he was. Yes. He made an all-NBA team. And look, I get the shortcomings. They're very glaring, especially in light of this postseason. But it's not like this guy's dogging it or getting in trouble or any of these things. And I'm just amazed at the vitriol that this kid has endured. Think about him. He got there. He couldn't play right away. He had a bad

foot. He missed a year. He, he hasn't been around that long. So I kind of am looking at it from his end of it and thinking, maybe for him, a change of scenery is the best thing he can think of. And if you're him also, and you hear Joel Embiid, really without prompting, specify your play as the turning point of the game. How on earth are you ever going to reconcile that relationship? You can't. You can't.

So I think it's a two-way street. I think it makes some sense for Ben, too, to look forward and think about it. Now, wherever he goes, Bill, and I did a story on Ben about two years ago, I think. It was a fascinating story. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. And from his high school coach, you know, at Mount Verde. And he was talking about Ben Simmons can be an all-star forever. But if he really wants to be a great player, he's got to start shooting threes. And he said, look, he can right now.

This is what his high school coach. And I think Brett Brown believed this too. Right now could shoot 33% from the three-point line. The problem with Ben Simmons is he's a perfectionist. So 33% from three point line to him is embarrassing or it isn't good enough. And I don't think he realizes it doesn't matter, dude. Like you just got to do it.

What about 33% from the free throw line? Cause that's basically what he shot in the playoffs. Right. And that's, that's horrendous, but that's also mental. There's some mental gymnastics going on inside this very talented kid's head.

And I like, I like Ben. I think he's smart. I think he's tough. I think he's one of those guys when you push up against him, he responds better than like, he's a guy that if you admonish him, I think he responds to that better than,

you know, putting your arm around him. I think he's that kind of kid. And I'm sure Doc tried everything, as did Brett Brown and whoever gets him next will. But there's some really weird stuff going on here with this high-level NBA player that is just... I don't care what anybody says. This is a mental issue as much as it is a physical one. Well, and there's two things. And you talked about how mean the fans were. And you could say it's justified because two things. One, he hasn't gotten better in four years.

He just hasn't. What has he added to his game? How is he different than he was in the 2018 Boston series? It's the same guy. It's a fair criticism. Where the great players always add the extra thing. And then he just seems scared in these big games. And I think fans can sense that sometimes where it's like, I don't believe in this guy. This guy doesn't

believe in himself. Why should I believe in him? And I can tell you when I did that story, I was in Philly. It was before COVID. I watched him in the gym training. I watched him hit three after three after three. It's kind of like Dwight Howard. I did a story once with Dwight Howard, I don't know, a long time ago now, six, seven years ago. And I was asking him about, you know, expanding his range because he, you know, again,

I was watching, you know, you go into a gym with these guys, I'm watching him hit these 15-4s. I go, why don't you ever take those into games? He's like, well, I'm afraid I'll miss. And it just blows me away. You're in the NBA. Everybody misses, you know? And like, I remember Jordan always telling me, I'm going I'll miss. And it just blows me away. You're in the NBA. Everybody misses, you know?

And like, I remember Jordan always telling me, I'm going to miss, but I'm only going to miss. I'm not going to miss because I'm afraid or because I haven't tried it before. I'm going to miss just because something was a little off to the left or to the right. When you miss because you haven't done it enough, there's no excuse for that. And I'm telling you, Ben Simmons has taken enough threes that right now, if he wanted to, I really believe this. I sincerely believe this. He could be a 34% three-point shooter. And if even, let's put the free throws aside for a minute. If he does that, here's the question.

And this was the question Brett Brown always asked. Okay, let's say he starts shooting threes. Are you guarding him? You're not. Just like you're not guarding always asked. Okay. Let's say he starts shooting threes. Are you guarding him? You're not just like you're not guarding Giannis taking threes. You're begging him to do it. So therein lies the problem. So here's this kid, let's say he shoots them, but you're not going to, you're not going to guard him anyway. So where does it leave you? You know? So it's funny how we amplify this one part of his game. And yet the only way I guess, you know, to,

to fix it would be, you'd have to shoot 40% from three for a long, long time. And then maybe somebody might put a hand in his face. I still feel like doc kind of blew it in that series with him, where you just, if he's just not going to shoot in the fourth quarter and then the final stats were three field goals in seven fourth quarters,

like, and then they kept the press cap. The press smelled it out pretty early after game four, game five. And Doc did the thing where he defends his guy. But at some point, you've either got to put pressure on him publicly or privately and just say, dude, if you're not going to shoot, you're not going to play in the last

nine minutes. I don't care if we're paying you $33 billion a year. I don't care if you made the All-NBA last year. We're not going to win this series playing four and five offensively. So if you're not shooting, I'm not going to play you because we're not going to win. But he just never did it. And Brett Brown wanted to do that.

And in the end, they didn't do it. Everybody's always wanted to do it, but nobody's done it. And I don't know what the psychological reasoning behind that is. Is it possible? Some guys just don't have it. Like, you know, like Dwight Howard,

Dwight Howard just never had it in the last five minutes of a game. He, he's just the way you had to win around is everybody else had to have the ball. And if you got some rebound putbacks, great. Um, the,

who the, there's guys who have like kind of, kind of lost their way a little bit. Like, I feel like Gasol as great as he was and as great of an international player he was, I do feel like in the 2008 range playing with Kobe, I think he started a crater a little bit and then he snapped out of it and they won two more titles and he got through it. So we've, we've seen both versions of this, but the difference with Gasol is that he had done it.

He'd succeeded. He'd carried teams. And Kobe wasn't going to let, there the difference with Gasol is that he had done it. He had succeeded. He'd carried teams. And Kobe wasn't going to let... There's a reason why Kobe got so close to him. He's like Bird in that way. Like Bird knew in those vintage years, we've got to have DJ engaged, locked in, and feeling important. And I don't want to compare DJ's ego with

Marc Gasol's. I think they're very different. But my point was, Kobe recognized, I can't want to compare DJ's ego with Mark, Mark Gasol's and a pop Pau Gasol. I think they're very different. But my point was Kobe recognized, I can't win without this dude doing what I need him to do. So I'm going to make sure he does it. And if it, you know, if it means me hanging out with him again,

and I think they became very good friends and legitimately became very close friends. But I think you give it Kobe and assist in that some of your great players. And that was, again, that goes back to him, beat him, Ben Simmons. They coexisted just fine, but that's all they did. They coexisted.

You know, Embiid didn't say, man, I'm just going to, I'm going to hang out with Ben. We're going to be friends. I'm going to, I'm going to fix this. That's not what their relationship was. And by the way, nor should it have to be. That was, you know. On top of it, you have Simmons who's just doesn't want to shoot in the fourth quarter. And then you have Embiid who basically gives you the three good quarters. And by the fourth quarter, it looks exhausted every time. And that's a bigger thing, right?

18, they never should have lost to the Celtics. 19 is the closest they've come, but Butler's there. This year, they should have made the Eastern Finals. It's ridiculous that they didn't. Once Bogdanovich goes out, they should win that series. They don't. But it's the same stuff, right? Was Embiid ever

in the craziest good shape ever? I mean, he was playing hurt in the playoffs. I get it. Yeah. See, I think you're being too hard on him because I think he really did come back in great shape. He was playing big minutes and he was playing well. And then he went down with that first knee injury, missed 20 games.

No, but durability is a part of all of this. I get it. They needed him to play three straight rounds, and he made it four games. It's not like the Kyrie thing where Kyrie lands on Giannis' foot, and that's just a fluke, right? It's like anybody's going to get hurt that way. And B doesn't seem like he can play six months in a row. We haven't seen it. He's 28 now.

But he's 7'2". He's like a gigantic man he's 300 pounds I think it makes a difference for all these big guys it always has you know a lot of those big guys

I think run into that Yao Ming is the perfect example how about Samson? yeah all those guys so I just but I I pushed back on Embiid

a little bit this year I thought he gave him I thought he they got almost everything they could out of him. He got hurt. You're right. Hey, but people get hurt. That was a fluke thing too, the first one.

And then he has a partially torn meniscus and he's gutting it out. Give him that. He could have sat. He could have sat. And then the other thing is he had the eight turnovers a game the last two games, but they were also asking a superhuman amount of stuff from him where he's,

you know, he's your center. You don't, he's not Dirk Nowitzki in 2011 where you're running this whole high post offense for him. So I don't know. I just feel like the Sixers fans knew during that game, they were going to lose.

And that means something, you know, that I, you have to, you have to just think like, this can't be the team we bring back. It just can't. So then the question is where does Simmons go and what do they get? And are you looking for assets for him? Or are you just looking for a player? Do you feel like you have

a window with Embiid or are you just trying to make the best possible trade? Cause I, to me, it's like, if, if I was running, if I was like Simmons's brother, if I was Ben Simmons's brother, Bill Simmons. And he was like, where should I go? Where would you tell him? I would tell him like, go to your own team. Try to build something, build something around you. Fine. Go to Orlando, go to a bad team, make your mistakes. But how are you going to do that if you can't shoot and can't score? But that's the thing. Use the regular season to learn how to tap into all these skills that you have. Oh, that's interesting.

I don't know if you're tapping into when you're on this team that has a chance to win the title and now you're afraid like, oh, if I shoot, I'll screw it up for us. Maybe he just needs to go to a bad team. That's why I feel like the Harden for Simmons trade would have been solved so many different league problems. For everybody. Simmons just goes to Houston. He gets to make all his mistakes. Harden makes Philly much more fun. We get some real answers for him as a player.

And now we leave this season, I have no answers for anybody. I mean, we don't know. What do you make from Brooklyn? I don't know what to make of that team. So let me ask you this. Because I still don't know the answer. I don't think. Did Philly say no to that deal? Or did they just like the other deal better?

I think they like the other deal better. I don't think Houston wanted to trade with Philly. Because of Darrell. I think they strung them along. And I think the owner never fully intended to ever actually pull the trigger on a trade with them

that's what I think too and I think they knew Brooklyn was just going to keep throwing in stuff as they did as they did and and I would have too

by the way I would have too look if Brooklyn's healthy I still think they win well Russell and I said that Sunday the thing we learned

from that Milwaukee that all of those, the Milwaukee series, then the Philly series was like Brooklyn would have killed everybody. Yeah. They would have won. Like they almost beat Milwaukee anyway with hard on one leg and no Kyrie.

And they still almost won. And you think, even if you throw Kyrie in there, I don't think that series is close. I feel bad for Daryl because Daryl goes to this new team. You have these assets. And now you're kind of in the same fucked up position he was in with Houston

where it's like I have this top 10 player I have kind of a weird roster around him I don't have a lot of outs for trades I got Simmons making 33 and Harris making 34

Maxie and Thibault I think have some trade value yeah they also have some upside, though. Yeah, and ultimately, it's Simmons, and what I can get back for him is going to decide the next three years of a Bits career.

Right, right. Danny Green's a free agent. I don't know what to do with him. That's not big money, though. It is interesting. Tobias Harris, I don't know. I don't want to put words in Daryl's mouth. He's never said this to me,

but he just, you know, how do you, is Tobias Harris the answer? No. Is he the third guy? I don't think so. Also, is he tradable? Because he's at like $35 million. Not with that contract. Although I say that all the time. I said Chris Ball wasn't tradable. I said Russell Westbrook wasn't tradable. I said John Wall wasn't tradable. And I was wrong all three times. So everybody in this league. I mean, did you think Kemba Walker would go so quickly? I mean, that was quick. If it wasn't going to be OKC, with Al Horford for the half a year. And just say, hey, be a good soldier. Work with us here.

And we'll promise we'll try to get you somewhere good next year. And there's a lot of guys in that 30 to 36 million range that don't seem tradable, but maybe they just all get traded for each other. I guess that's what. Well, that's what happened with Wall and Westbrook, right? That's what happened. Right. Like, is Kevin, is somebody had talked themselves into Kevin Love?

Start looking at him? You mean Olympian Kevin Love? Terrible. How does that happen? How does that, how does Jeremy Grant happen either? Like, I just feel like this is,

we have one point guard on this team. Drew Holiday is the backup point guard. Don't we know from international basketball, you need at least, really three ball handlers, but at least give me two. What happens if my starting point guard is in foul trouble?

So Drew Holiday is going to be my point guard against like weird pressure against like some Slovenian team. I don't feel good about that. All I can say is that we've heard about some of the no's. There must have been some other no's that we didn't hear about.

Where's our guy Herter? How did Herter not play his way on this team? He's 27 in a game 7. Red Velvet. I don't know which I like better. Red Velvet or Kavon. I love it when they call him Kavon. Kavon's funny. Where was Trey? Did Trey say no?

I don't think they ever asked Trey Young. How is Trey Young not on this team? That's a really interesting question. I don't think they ever asked Trey Young. How is Trey Young not on this team? That's a really interesting question. You know, I don't know the answer to that. I don't know if anyone's ever asked him. I can't imagine, Bill, I can't imagine Trey Young saying no to the Olympics. Me neither. In all my wildest dreams, I can't imagine that. I just don't know how you end up with an Olympic team where Jeremy Grant and Kevin Love are the 11th and 12th guys. Jeremy Grant, there's like seven other wings on this team that play over him. And Love, we haven't seen Love have a relevant basketball moment for three years. I don't even know if he's competent anymore. I don't even know

what that's about. Yeah. I mean, I'd rather have Michael Porter Jr. than Jeremy Grant, you know? Seriously. There's a lot of people we could do. Let's take another break and then talk about some of the coaching stuff. All right. So, again, we're taping this mid-afternoon Thursday. Carlisle to Indiana. That was interesting. I thought he was going to Milwaukee and then Milwaukee ended up somehow winning the Brooklyn Series. He probably was going to Milwaukee if that happened.

Then he audibles to Indiana. And that's like a fun Rick Carlisle team. They have a lot of weird players like Brogdon and Sabonis, these kind of creative offensive players that I think are in his wheelhouse. I actually like the move. Well, good for Rick too, because, you know, Indiana needs somebody that wants to be there and plans to stick around for a bit. Do we agree on that?

Yes. They blew it on Nate McMillan, in my opinion. And we can say everything we want about it, but Nate McMillan looks pretty darn good to me right now. Yeah. The one that really blew it was Nate Borkton, obviously. But I think with Rick, I think his time there was really great. I think it's a place that he's already established there.

And he's a very different coach this time than the first time he coached in Indiana. No question about that. That's stating the obvious. He's already established there. And he's a very different coach this time than the first time he coached in Indiana. No question about that. That's stating the obvious. He's got gravitas. He's got a championship. He's learned how to adapt and grow and deal with players. And I think he's one of the best coaches around. Always

have. Tactically, he's really, really good. Now, he can be a thorny personality. He knows that about himself. He's very direct. By the way, that's a thorny personality. He knows that about himself. He's very direct. But what I've seen with him- By the way, that's a thorny team. He'll fit in with some of the guys of that team. And he's kind of what I call an autocorrect guy. So he'll say something and then I'll realize, well, that was kind of snippy or whatever. And then I'll call you back and say, yeah, well, I wanted to add to that. So he's got a conscience. Brilliant guy. We know that.

He's one of the smartest people I've ever met. Not just about basketball, about everything. I like it too. I think it saves face for Indiana. It's pretty embarrassing what's going on there, coaching-wise. Do you think Philly is

happy they have Doc Rivers as their coach? Do you wish that they had gone through one more year of Brett Brown and then they would have had their pick of all these dudes? I think on the one hand with Doc... I didn't never got... See, I mean, I'm biased. I'll just admit to you right now, I'm biased. Because I think Brett Brown is a really good basketball guy.

And I think, you know, it's that classic case of a guy that was just there too long, right? You stop listening or whatever. And I think he was dealing with an impossible situation that now Doc Rivers understands quite acutely. That's what I think. And I think he did his best to manage Ben Simmons without embarrassing him, which by the way, Dot, you know, his comments at the end were very interesting too. He backtracked the next day, but you know, the truth serum told us, he wasn't sure about Ben going forward. How can, how can anyone be sure?

No, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. But I just always thought like Brett Brown took so much grief. Yeah. His handling or quote unquote mishandling of, of Ben Simmons. And I knew so much behind the scenes of how he was trying, you know, he at one point said to him, look, do you want me to just sit you down? If you don't shoot, you want me to say, if you don't shoot these, I'm going to bench you. Cause I can do that. And I think that's what ownership wanted

him to do, but that's not who Brett Brown is. He's a much fairer person than that. He's a more cerebral person that he's a better person than that. And so, and yet he paid for it with his job. So that's just my little aside. Well, doc, I defensively, I thought they did some really nice stuff against Trey and that series just came down to he didn't have the balls to bench Ben Simmons in the last nine minutes.

Or maybe not the balls or maybe he just didn't. You know once you do that, that player is leaving after the season. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, do I want to do this? Do I want to?

Can I win this series with him or am I going to make this leap where there's no coming back once I do this, but he should have. And if you win the series, you then have to go to the next series. And are you not going to play Ben Simmons? Right.

With Ben Simmons in his own head. I didn't really have, I didn't really think Doc Rivers had much to do at all with what happened with the Sixers, to be honest in this. Yeah. I mean, not really.

I didn't, I didn't see it that way. The one game I think was the, what was it? The fifth game when they're up 22, 23. Yeah, that's on everybody. There was some mental stuff you could feel and it just kind of happened.

It was like watching a slow motion car crash for a half hour. And I don't even know who to blame in those scenarios. Did you see the enduring image of that game was Doc bent over with his hands on his knees. Right. Remember that? I'm like, I turned to Mike, my husband, I said, oh man, they're going to be running

that on SportsCenter all day tomorrow. And they did. And I'm sure Doc was just like, you've got to be kidding me. And that kind of brings me back to the Hawks for just a second. They are never out of games. I know. It's the era now. It's 2021. If you're down 20, you still just a second. They are never out of games. I know. It's the era now. It's 2021.

If you're down 20, you still have a chance. Yeah, but they do it. I think games they've been down 20 plus points, I think they've come back to win 11 times since Nate McMillan became their coach. That's a big number. That is a big number.

Same thing for that Clippers-Utah game, which I was lucky enough to go to. It was 75-50 at halftime, but it's like, oh, they'll make one run. They have too many three-point shooters. That was the same kind of thing. And it's interesting when you're in the building for those, where the slow motion car crash games, and I'm watching

Quinn Snyder. I actually thought he did all the right things, except for not taking Gobert out. He's calling timeouts. He could feel the momentum shifting ways, basically using every sort of thing he could do, but they couldn't change the fundamental reality of that game. It's like, you can't play Gobert if you have five guys out there and they're all hitting threes, which is what happened. Cooper's going to this next series and the Suns are better defensively and suddenly those threes aren't as wide open and stuff like that.

You could see it. It happened so fast and you could see the coach and Quinn Snyder was kind of frantic on the sidelines because he could feel it. But what are you going to do? What are you going to do? I'll tell you.

I really feel like for him losing Mike Conley early in that series and then a shell of Mike Conley came back for the last game. It killed them because he runs their pick and roll for them. He gets the ball zipping. That's when they were good. You know, the Utah Jazz were the best team in the NBA during the season because they never

stopped moving the ball because they were getting, you know, running out in transition and hitting pull-up three-pointers. Like, I couldn't believe it. Early in, I'm like, how many pull up three pointers are these guys going to take a lot? Cause they made them and that's what made them good. And so when Conley went out so much of that and you know, Donovan wasn't a hundred percent. I mean,

when we look back on these playoffs, we're just going to be talking about all the people we're missing, which is a shame, right? We're going to talk about all the injuries and all the people that weren't playing. And that's too bad. Yeah, we did the math on Sunday's pod. It was out of the top 11 guys in the league, nine of them are out. Kawhi's hurt. And then Giannis was the last guy left.

You could argue Trey has now moved in. That is now a 12-person list because of how well he's played. But by the way, he's hurt. Don't forget, he's playing with a bad shoulder. Because he is. The Celtics coach. how well he's played. But by the way, he's hurt. Don't forget, he's playing with a bad shoulder because he is. Right. The Celtics coach. Yeah.

So there was a lot of buzz about this the last week. He had a relationship with Tatum and Brown from the World Championships from two years ago. And I think those guys vouched for them. I think they clearly were hoping to hire a black coach. I think they understood the significance of that. I think it was significant to Tatum and coach. I think they understood the significance of that. I think it was significant to Tatum and Brown. I think it was important to those guys. A hundred percent.

And it was a pick that made sense for a lot of reasons, but he coached under Popovich, spent a little Brett Brown time, Steve Nash this year. They loved him there. They loved him there. What do you know about him? Have you interacted with him? What's your scouting report? I've interacted with him very little, but I was in Milwaukee like a week

and a half ago. And for a story that never ran because the Nets lost before we could run it, but that's neither here nor there. But, you know, I was there and I, he may was name was everywhere with the Celtics. He kind of had a feeling he was definitely one of the front runners. So I started asking around, I asked it around all the Nets a feeling he was definitely one of the front runners. So I started asking around. I asked it around all the Nets coaches and I saw a couple of the players and, you know,

he's one of these guys people rave about him. People were telling me he was a little bit of a James Harden whisper. Like he really got James Harden to, you know, get buy-in

and he's a no-nonsense guy. Like he, players really like him because he's helpful. He's not a self-promoter at all. And, you know, there's nothing players hate more than a self-promoter coach that's trying to use them you know looking for cameras and showing them how to do something to get their own career

none of that went on with him I mean he really uh you know he was raised at the foot of Greg Popovich and espouses a lot of his beliefs you You know, you never see him quoted anywhere. Like that's just not his style. And that's why I think he's so like-minded with Brad Stevens because Brad Stevens is not a self-promoter at all. It's funny. There was this sort of weird backlash about Brad after his first couple of years, because he was really killing it and he was great on the ATOs, you know, uh, I'm sorry. Oh, Jesus, I said that completely wrong. A lot of timeouts. And, and there was like a little bit of backlash from the coaching fraternity that I didn't really understand. Really? Yeah. There was just a little bit of it. Like you heard it, like people were a

little jealous or something. They thought he got too much attention and yet he never asked for any of it. Yeah. He never brought any of it on himself. It was, it was dickheads like me calling him president Stevens. There you go. Yeah. You're to blame. I blame you everything on himself. It was dickheads like me calling him President Stevens. There you go. Yeah, you're to blame. I blame everything on you. Thank you. Yeah, there you go.

So anyway, my point is he never was into that. And I think to find a like-minded coach who's not into that either, I think Brad's like, this guy cares about defense. I care about defense. There's a little bit of an analytics background there, of course. He relates to players. He respects players. He treats people with respect, something that's important to Brad Stevens. And yet he has an edge to him. And I know most people don't see that side of Brad Stevens, but I'm telling you, it's there. The players have seen it. The players know it's real. And I think this guy is going to be the same way.

I think publicly what you're going to see won't tell the whole story because privately he's going to challenge people, but he's just not going to tell you about it. He's not going to embarrass his players. I think there's, and I don't want to make too much of this, so aggregators be careful.

I think there was a realization that there needed to be a subtle culture shift with that entire organization for a couple of reasons. One, two, just too white all over the place. Like they knew they had to fix that. And then the second piece was, um, I don't want to say it's distrust, but Trader Danny traded a lot of people over the years and everyone was expendable at all times. And I think there was a feeling of like, does this team have my back?

Right. And right as all of that's happening, then Danny has the comments during the Nets series where he kind of, I don't know, it didn't seem like he took some of the race stuff in Boston seriously enough.

And I think that had an impact. He was gone already. He was leaving. But in general, I think they just had to do some housecleaning and kind of reimagine how players saw playing for this team and what the organization itself cared about. Because I do think they care about the right things. But I think they were very conscious of there's subtle things here that we need to fix. You agree with that?

I do. And I haven't talked to Danny. You know, I'm kind of leaving him bees. He's out, you know. So I haven't asked him about that. But those comments that you're referring to where he said that he had talked to players and never had heard about any racial problems

or issues with players on his team. Now, we can look at that one of two ways. He can genuinely, he could be genuinely telling us that's how he feels. And that's, and so what that tells us is he wasn't as plugged in with his players as he probably should have been. Yeah. Okay. Because I talked to Marcus Smart and Jalen Brown and plenty of those guys about some

of the racial issues in Boston and they exist everywhere. I'm not saying it's just Boston. Or he was just trying to prop up a franchise that means everything to him. And so I don't know which one it is because I haven't asked him. But you're right in your comments about how it kind of reverberated a little bit around the league. I mentioned to you I was in Milwaukee

and I was staying at the brooklyn nets team hotel people were coming going i ran into some bucks people too and not one not two but three different people asked me about that and they said wow that was not good and i so i'm like okay because this is reverberating outside our city you know right and uh. And look, Boston has a complicated history. We don't have to go through this again. The Celtics do not have a complicated racial history. That's really the irony of it. And we've said this a thousand times.

They've been a leader over and over again. Right, right. And so, but again, your players, there was just a lot of, what's the word? Turmoil. Turmoil is a too strong a word. I would say unease. Unease is a good word. Yeah, something was slightly off and nobody really knew how to describe it, but it dates back even to the Kyrie season in 2019.

It's the last three years. Last year's the bubble and then this year it was off and it's just kind of been something's off. I think the last three years. Last year's the bubble. And then this year it was off. And it's just kind of been something's off. I think the last three years have been really, really tough for the players and for the coaches. And I think it contributed probably to Brad stepping down, to be honest with you. I think it was a pretty grueling three years. People say last year. No, no, no. This goes back three years.

All the way back to the season with Kyrie that was just catastrophic in so many ways. And one of the reasons I believe that Al Horford did go to Philadelphia to take, well, more money didn't hurt either. But I think he was like, this is dysfunctional. So in that regard, he may have some work to do. But I just think just by hiring him is such a great start. This young person with no previous ties to Boston, I kind of felt like that was important too. He's got an incredible background too. He's a really tough guy.

And I think this team did not have toughness. I've said it a million times. It was the softest good Celtics team I've ever watched. And I think they knew it. But I think he will bring a toughness back. Because ultimately, you need the three guys, assuming Smart is staying. Right. Which I'm not sure he is.

Yeah, who knows? But assuming he's staying, Brown, Tatum, Smart, need those guys to buy in and set some sort of toughness tone. Trae Young shouldn't be tougher than everybody in the Celtics. Let's start there. Trae Young is tougher than everyone in the Celtics. He's tougher than like 90% of the league, man.

He's earned that. That's legit. And again, that's what I mean. There's tough and there's fake tough, right? Trae Young's not fake tough.

Let me tell you right now. He's just not. And the Celtics do need some toughness. I think you've got to bring the right veterans in to maybe add a little bit of that.

I mean, I loved Jay Crowder when Jay Crowder was in Boston. Me too. I think you've got to bring the right veterans in to maybe add a little bit of that. I mean, I love Jay Crowder when Jay Crowder was in Boston. Me too. I love Marcus Morris. As frustrating as Morris was, Morris was another one. Yeah, and you know, the Clippers miss him.

The Clippers miss him desperately. He's not playing, you know, he's been hurt. He's not playing much in the second half. They miss him a ton, I think. Trey had this moment last night. Giannis fouled him on a three.

Hit him in the face after he shot it. And Giannis complained to the ref and Trey was walking by him and he just turned around and kind of sneered at him. Like you hit me in the face. He was just mad. Like he was like ready to fight him. I was like, I love this guy.

I couldn't stand him three months ago. This is my favorite guy in the league. I love that. He's like trying to bully Giannis. Giannis is seven feet tall, but that's just how he carries himself. And the whole Celtics team, they didn't have that all year.

You could hit anybody in the team. Kyrie, they're racing to hug him after playoff games where they lose by 20. And it's like, what's happening? And I do feel like Brad lost the steering wheel a little bit. Because the toughness has to come from either your best player or the coach or both. And that team wasn't tough. Well, again,

we talk about playing hard, right? So it seems like such a simple concept. Your team should play hard. But how many teams really do it all the time or even most of the time? And the Celtics did not.

Yeah. They did not. They quit in so many games that that just can't happen alright so that's a team that's having a culture change the other interesting team that's at a little crossroads

is Dallas yes Carlisle leaves they fire Donnie Nelson finally there's some huge power struggle Haral Bob who's been on this podcast

a bunch of times has he? yeah he's had Cuban's ear too much apparently or maybe Rick Carlisle's ear too much. And it was just very dysfunctional over there. And then on top of it, you have Luca who clearly wants his dude Mosley to be the coach,

I'm guessing. And who's a 22-year-old superstar who has a max contract. He can hold over everybody. And you have to cater to this dude. This is the league that we have now. How do you think it plays out in Dallas? Well, did you see Rick Carlisle today

is publicly endorsing Jason Kidd? He's saying Jason Kidd should be the head coach. And I'm the only person on the planet that's coached both Jason Kidd and Luka Doncic. And I think they're a perfect match for one another. So he endorsed him over Mosley. Isn't that weird? Ooh, Mosley was his lead assistant.

That's tough. Yeah, so what does that mean? Does he think Mosley... That speaks to the dysfunction, I would say. Yeah, I would say too. So I thought that was very surprising. Didn't Kidd have a bad departure in Dallas though? I thought he did.

Hasn't he had a bad departure everywhere? He's Mr. Bad Departure. Yeah. Come on, man. Cuban might be one of the few owners I can think of that if you hire someone that pleaded guilty to assaulting your wife, right? He pleaded guilty. Did he not? He did. He did. I guess Cuban doesn't care. I care. I care. They had some issues with that too in the past, so that would be an interesting hire,

to say the least. Yeah, who knows? Carlisle came out really strongly just a little while ago with that. So I don't know what that means. I do not know what that means. But you're right. Luka Doncic has got all the keys. He's got the keys to the beach house

the caddy the Maserati you know the summer cottage he's he's holding everything and we

Russel and I did a whole thing two Sundays ago about could Luka be the first one who walks away from the first Max contract could this happen and then like a day later

there Luka did the wink wink. Of course, I'm signing the super max. But of course now seven things have happened since that happened. I still feel, do you feel like in the next 15 years, we see a player do that? That just says, you know what?

I'm not, I'm just doing the year five qualifying offer. I'm keeping my options open. I know I am leaving 15 to $17 million on the table from that extension that I think I can make back if I go to the right city. Because at some point, you know, LeBron's not going to be in LA forever. LeBron might have a year left. The Lakers might have a huge salary slot. You might have the Clippers.

You might have the Knicks. You might have Brooklyn. You might have Chicago. Like there's going to be big markets where you could make the money back. Now, Luca's in a big market already, so maybe he's a bad example. But do you think anybody will do that? Well, I think the danger of it,

I always think of Grant Hill. You know, I always do. And I think if I'm those players' agents, I'm like, you're going to sign the Macs. And if you don't want to stay here, we're going to pull an Anthony Davis. Right. and we're going to force you out of town. That's what I would do. Wait. So you call that a pull an Anthony Davis? Cause I, that's not a pull a Carmelo. I thought Carmelo invented that.

I don't know. To me, Anthony Davis was the most. I guess Anthony did it the, he did it the most flagrantly. Yeah. And I don't, by the way, by the time Anthony Davis did it, I didn't really 100% blame him. It's not like Anthony Davis didn't give the Pelicans a few years to get it right. Yeah. You know?

Like he, I don't really fault Anthony Davis that much for doing it. Or, I mean, pulling a James Harden. Don't do it during the season. Yeah, I agree with that.

And you know, James Harden, like what he did to season. Yeah. I agree with that. And you know, James, pulling a James Harden, like what he did to Houston was criminal. I hated that. Pulling a James Harden is worse. That's basically like, I am, I quit.

I'm quitting. I'm quitting on all of you. Yeah. And that's how this is playing out. Right. Yeah. And Anthony Davis, I didn't feel like did that,

but anyway, Carmel, sure. We could call it that too, if you want. So I just feel like money in hand is always a good thing because you can get

injured at any time. It can just blow up on you at any time. You can always, if you're good enough, if you're Luka Doncic and you want to go, there'll be a way to get you to go. I just wonder with the Knicks actually getting their shit together. Yeah, someone get you to go. I just wonder with the Knicks

actually getting their shit together. Yeah, someone's going to go there. Someone's going to bite. And maybe it'll be, I don't know, Devin Booker coming off of, like if he takes Phoenix to the finals or even if they win the title and maybe that's the next step for him.

I don't know. But it'll be somebody because there's too much money at stake. There's all these great young players, like Don, like Donovan Mitchell. I don't, you know, that was a kind of a weird thing that happened with him in Utah with that, you know, I'm not, again, I'm not saying he's unhappy. He wants out again, aggregators not saying that, but I'm just speculating, you know, if you get to, he's signed as super max, right. If you get to year three or four and Utah's, you you know can't get there

i mean you know maybe you look around i mean all these young players trey i mean trey young it's wait i mean i don't want to talk about him he hasn't even signed his super max but right you know there's all these young talents that hey i just was reading the other day like what is jason tatum in four years will be 27, the prime of his career. And his contract with Boston will be up. Think about that. Well, don't think the Celtics are thinking about that all the time. Of course.

My point is player movement today is the norm, not the exception. It used to be Kareem was the exception, not the rule. He left. He was the exception, not the rule. Karl Malone and John Stockton and Magic Johnson, they all stayed. I mean, I guess in the end, Jordan didn't either. But I always think of Jordan staying in one place,

but he didn't. But he might as well have. That was how it went. Now, that's not how it is. And again, I give LeBron all the credit in the world for that. He's the one that took player empowerment to the nth degree. And every player in the league

should thank him for that. With that said, Kevin Durant, who's amazing in that series. And I think I had, I said on Sunday, I think he's in the top 10 all time for me now. I moved them up. I had a Shaq and Moses and Akeem. Okay.

And I have them right behind Kobe. Right behind Kobe and Trey Young, Bill. I have Trey Young first. I have Trey Young over Bill Russell and Michael Jordan now. But who's the Reign ultimately going to belong to when he goes to the Hall of Fame? And I guess that's the part, just because I'm old, I have a hard time. Clemens was really the first guy that was like this from my generation, where it's like the Red Sox fans are like, well, you left. Fuck you.

He's not really a Yankee. He was a Blue Jay for a couple of years. And then he's in the Astros. I felt that way about Carlton Fisk. You know, like he's ours, but not really. Right. Played for the White Sox. I still feel like he was ours.

I know he was at the White Sox longer than the Red Sox. Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't yours. But with Duran, it's like, now he's so brilliant. And it's like this new era we're in now where it's just like, people are just Kevin Durant fans. And I talked to my son, my son is 13 and he has friends that just root for players. They don't have teams. And I guess that's where we're going with this. So Durant is just so singularly brilliant. And it kind of belongs to him and the Durant fans and these Nets fans that showed up like a week ago.

And I don't know, it's just a weird, weird thing. Just think, just think of Kevin Durant didn't wear a shoe size that was one size too big. They would have won. His foot was on the line.

If he had his regular size sneakers on, he'd hit the, that would be a three and they would have won. I mean, he's the most versatile offensive player I've ever seen. It's funny, Steve Kerr is getting a lot of flack or whatever today because he said Kevin Durant was the most gifted player he's ever seen, more gifted than Michael Jordan. People are going crazy. I understand exactly what Steve Kerr is saying, don't you? He's not saying that Kevin Durant's better than Michael Jordan, or he's just saying,

look at that body seven foot, whatever. He said this two years ago. I don't know why this was news. He said this when he was coaching. Cause we have the attention span of a gnat. That's why. The other thing is Steve Kerr is,

I think the only guy from that generation who's willing to admit something that they, as you know, I revere that generation and Larry Legend is my guy and all that stuff, but like, I'm sorry, the players are better offensively now. They shoot better, they make higher difficulty shots and it's a fact. If you put Duran in 1986,

we would have thought he'd landed from a spaceship. Exactly. You know? It's like... Well, you know what we'd do? We would have put him on the post and have Robert Parrish guard him That's what we would've done True Yeah you're right You're right

Cause we'd've been like Seven footer What are you doing out there Get back down there You know I was thinking During that Clipper Suns game Cause

That I went to the game six There was like I don't know Five different guys That he checks during the game And I was just like This is unbelievable Nobody

We used to call Vinnie Johnson The microwave because he could come in and he could make five straight 17 footers. I'm like, oh, Vinnie Johnson. And now I'm watching a game where Reggie Jackson is 24 points and a half as Terrence Mann also has 25 points and a half. And I'm like, right. The sports just, I think, I think it's just offensively better. I don't know if it's more fun to watch, but the guys are more gifted.

Well, and they also, I always go back to the hand check rule. Once they took that away, it just became impossible to guard these guys on the perimeter. Impossible. Right. And I think Isaiah Thomas is a good example. Like he just would have gone wherever he went. And the year after they did that, if I'm not mistaken, the year after they made that rule, I'm pretty sure Allen Iverson led the league in scoring. I'm pretty sure that's the case.

And so that tells you everything you need to know. Having said that, look at Durant. Durant can, he could beat you off the dribble. He can create his own shot. He can shoot threes. He shoots free throws. He can, he's got a lefty hook, righty hook he could score out of the post like he's unbelievable he's unbelievable and and i do i mean i do think in talking with him his genuine goal is to win three championships in brooklyn and make it that his place his legacy. Now, that could have happened this year, but a lot of weird stuff happened. And the problem is Kevin Durant, how old is Kevin Durant?

Is he 32 or something? He's 32. Well, he has two titles that he basically left on the table, right? 19, they would have won. He doesn't get it. And then this year, I think they would have won.

He doesn't get it. Right. That's, you know, LeBron has four and it's probably the right number. I think if you really look at his career, the over-unders, like probably four, four and a half, you could say he should have won in 2011,

but Dallas beat them. Yeah, 100% beat them. And he shouldn't have won in 2014. 15, they had all the injuries. Maybe that's the one, but I don't know if they should have won in 16. Draymond punches him in the balls. Right. And Bowe gets out. Remember, Bowe got hurt too. Yeah, I think four is the right number for him, maybe that's the one but I don't know if they should have won in 16 Draymond punches him in the balls right

you know so Bo gets out remember Bo got hurt too yeah I think four is the right number for him but I also think four is the right number for Durant after what we've seen

but see I don't think Durant cares about that kind of stuff you know like no he 100% doesn't like LeBron's constantly looking at his legacy the far reach

and can I you know Jordan and that whole thing I just don't think Durant honest to God the amount of times I've talked to. I just don't think Durant, honest to God, the amount of times I've talked to him, I just think Kevin Durant is searching for something he's never going to find. I really believe that. I think he's searching for this inner peace, this happiness, this joy that just isn't ever going to exist for him. I wish that weren't true,

but that's just what I,'s just my own personal opinion. And maybe if it could happen in Brooklyn with his friend Kyrie, they're good friends. Long before they made this union, they used to work out together. They'd go to the Bahamas every summer and work out together and vacation together. And actually, when Jason Tatum was a rookie, they invited him that first year to go down with them. So that friendship is real. It wasn't just for convenience to come to Brooklyn and win something. That was a legitimate friendship.

But I just think he's searching for something that he's never going to find. Like, because if you, and people say, well, why didn't he stay in Golden State? Well, no matter how good he was, no matter how special he was, no matter how brilliant he was, he was never going to be Steph. And Steph's their boy, their homegrown boy, the boy next door that did these amazing things. And no matter how good Kevin Durant was, he was never going to quite be Steph. So that's why I think he left there. I really do. A hundred percent. He realized that after the first year. I actually, so I'd slightly disagree with you. I think he does know what he wants.

What does he want? To be considered to be as good or better than LeBron. I think that's what has driven him really since 2016 because I think he has felt probably since his first MVP year that he was as good as LeBron from that point on. 2014 on, I am as good as this guy. And then finally had the chance to play him in the finals in 17.

It was better than him, but it was still Curry's team. 2018, same thing. Goes head-to-head with him. His team wins again, but it's like, no, your team was so stacked. 2019, he is hands down the best player in the league. We're not even arguing about it anymore.

He hurts his Achilles. Then LeBron wins again. Now he puts his super team together this year and he's going to take the title and then all these guys get hurt. But I think that's what drives him. That's interesting. One of the podcasts I did with him,

I did like six of them in like a year and a half. And in one of them, I wanted to talk about the historical stuff. So just, so I had all the numbers. I wrote down all these things on a piece of paper, like all these things that he could get to write 35,000 points. So only two guys have done that. Um, here's how many MVPs here's all NBA teams, scoring titles, um, playoff appearances. Like I just kind of put it down so I would have it in case we needed it during the conversation. Afterwards, I was like, hey, do you want this?

And he kind of looked at it for a second and he's like, nah. He just doesn't care. He doesn't care about the stats and any of that stuff. It is like, who has the title of best player in the league? I think that's what drives him. I think he wants to be the best player in the league. I mean, he probably is the best player in the league. I think he is what drives him. I think he wants to be the best player in the league. I mean, he probably is

the best player in the league. I think he is, but I don't think he feels like other people credit him for that because he didn't get that after 17. And that's what sent him

into that. He thought after 17 it was done. It was a wrap. I'm the best player. He was the finals MVP. But it wasn't, it's not how it played out

that year. I think there's still this whole thing. LeBron's the best player. It's like, well, LeBron had Kyrie, Kevin Love, and the most expensive roster in the team. And Kevin had Curry, Klay, Draymond,

David West, Sean Livingston. The teams are pretty even. There's this, we've kind of flipped this now where it's like, oh man, that team was so much more loaded than Cleveland. It's like, not really. Those teams are both really good. Right. You know, and he, and he beat him pretty handily. And he just, I think not getting the credit, I think kind of knocked him. Well, let me ask, let me ask you this. If they had won this year, would he have gotten the credit or would have been, well, you stacked your team again? No.

Well, why, why is it any different? Well, I think weirdly the way it played out was the best thing for him. Because we came out of that series, he was so unbelievable in five and seven that people were like, wow, that's the best player in the league. How can somebody say he's not the best player in the league now? Right, but here's the thing that you need to remember about Kevin Durant. That's not how he wants to play, Bill. That's not what he wants to do.

He doesn't want to play 48 minutes and score 46 points. He likes to distribute. He doesn't want to play 48 minutes and score 46 points. He likes to distribute. He likes to be a team player. So he did it out of necessity. But that's the difference between him and Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan wants to do that every single night. I'm not comparing him. I'm not saying who's better, who isn't.

I'm just saying, so what we saw from Kevin Durant isn't really who he wants to be either. I don't think. But I think that's why he has the title because I think the ceiling of what he can do is the highest. Like the fact that he was, that game five where he had half of their rebounds

on top of he boosted their entire offense. Like nobody in the league can do that. Yeah, he's so special. He's so special. But I think, so that's why I moved him up to 10. And I think he's in that, I think he's now breathing on Kobe and Bird and Magic.

And, you know, just because I think offensively, he has to be considered as good as all of those guys. Oh, 100%. I love Bird, but there's no way Bird was better offensively than Durant. Bird was a special passer. Like, he did things that Durant couldn't do. Yeah, and Bird was just the toughness. We talk about toughness all the time.

I've always said, people always say to me, if you had five seconds left, you got one guy to shoot it. You and I are always going to say Bird because we lived it. We lived it. But you can't argue if someone says Durant or Jordan. I don't think that's exactly what LeBron does. But if you ask me

who do I want playing for me in game seven the whole game I might take LeBron. Well so if you're trying to come up with like your

all-time teams and your five and I think one of the things that makes Durant and LeBron both so special is you could kind of put whoever around them, right?

Doing the all-time team thing. Yeah. Like, all right, we're going to put Bird, Magic, Durant, pick a point guard or pick a shooting guard and whatever.

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Durant and a center. It's like, yeah, we'll probably be a really good team. I want to put Tim Duncan at the five. Can I do that?

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. But that could work and LeBron is the same way. It could be like LeBron, Magic, Bird, Jordan, pick a center or pick us, pick Duncan or pick a stretch five. It doesn't really matter at that point. It's funny to me that people always compare LeBron to Jordan. He's so, so much more like Magic Johnson to me, really in physical stature and the way he likes to distribute the ball. I mean, LeBron has great vision, great court vision, and uses his muscle to dominate games. I always thought he should have been compared to Magic more than Michael, honestly. Yeah, he was a little bit of a hybrid of all three. I'll be interested to see how he responds

next year because next year is year 19 for him. Amazing. At some point, this has to end. It's just the rule. And we would say this with Kobe too in 2012, right? When he was playing, he was doing those 48-minute games and it was like, wow, Kobe, he's the best he's looked in a while. He's old. This is sustainable. Yeah. And his body broke down. At some point, you can't do it at that level anymore. Did you believe LeBron when he said, well, I'm never going to be the same again? Or do you think that was gamesmanship?

I feel like he says a lot of this stuff. I am always wondering what the motive is when he says some of this stuff. When he criticized the league for all the injury stuff, to me, that just seemed like sour grapes because we all know that him and Chris decide everything that happens in the league.

And if they didn't want that season, it wasn't going to happen. No, no. What that was, was, oh, wait, no one's talking about me. Yeah. Let me just say this. Or, oh, no one's talking about me.

I'm going to change my number. Right. Did you notice, you know? And the next thing will be him showing up in Vegas to watch the USA team work out or something. Yeah. It's always relevant. No coincidence that it's happening as Durant is getting all the love that he was getting.

The ratings probably aren't going to be spectacular for these finals, maybe even the conference finals, but I think this was weirdly a really good playoffs for the league because they were able to break all these new stars. It's good for them to have Booker and Trey and have Giannis in the spotlight like this. And I agree.

And even like Paul George being really good. And, um, I don't know. It's never a bad thing when new guys emerge. So, um, yeah.

All right. We can end on that. This was a good one. Yeah. It's always a good one. I feel like we got deep on Kevin Durant. Yeah. I like Kevin Durant.

I really do. I just, I, he gets such a bad rap and, and I get that he's thin skin, but I don't know. a good one i feel like we got deep on kevin durant yeah i like kevin durant i really do i just he gets such a bad rap and and i get that he's thin-skinned but i don't know i always say put yourself in his shoes you know and not enough people do that like i'm not even on social media so i save myself all that trouble but he's a good guy he's he he's look he has some they all have their faults whatever but he actually tries to do the right thing. I feel with people like man, man to man,

face to face, man to woman, whatever. When he's talking with you, I feel like he listens. He considers what you say. Yeah. I think he gets a little bit of a bad rap.

I think he is a genuine guy and sometimes to a fault, but yeah, I'm, I'm the same way. Um, all right, Jackie, great to see you. Um, we will talk to you. Um, maybe even see you at a finals game, but I'm the same way. All right. Jackie, great to see you.

Thank you, Bill. We'll talk to you. Maybe even see you at a finals game, but I'm sure we'll talk to you. Let me get you a Trey Young bumper sticker. I'll send it out to you in LA. I'll put it on my car. Fantastic.

All right. Good to see you. All right. Bye. All right. That's it for the podcast. Coming back on Sunday with Bracillo. Not sure if we're doing a one-parter

or a two-parter yet. I guess we'll see what happens over the course of the weekend. Don't forget about the rewatchables. Again, we have an awesome one coming on Monday, so be ready for that. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. We will see you on Sunday night. On the wayside I don't have

On the wayside I don't have