The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Cousins Placebo, McCaffrey 2.0, NYJ-DC Optimism, and the Brady-Belichick Era With Sheil Kapadia and Julian Edelman

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Sheil Kapadia to discuss the beginning of NFL free agency, including the Eagles signing Saquon Barkley (2:06), Kirk Cousins's big deal with the Falcons, Russell Wilson to the Steelers, the Vikings picking up Sam Darnold, QB draft projections, AFC East speculation, possible Commanders optimism, and more (24:26). Then Bill talks to three-time Super Bowl champion Julian Edelman about watching football post-retirement, Apple's docuseries 'Dynasty,' Bill Belichick stories, developing a connection with Tom Brady, Julian's favorite current QBs and WRs, Rob Gronkowski's legacy, new Patriots HC Jerod Mayo, and more (57:55). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Julian Edelman and Sheil Kapadia Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, football, football, and more football. We did an all football pod next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good.

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We did Risky Business. Me and Chris Ryan, Tom Cruise's breakout movie. Had a great time. You can listen to that podcast wherever you get podcasts. I think eventually it's going to end up on youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, where you can find videos and clips from this podcast and from the rewatchables as well. Ringer Philly Special, our Boston pod, Off the Pike, Chicago, if anything happens with that, Jason Goff will be all over it,

New York, New York with John Jastrzemski. So, anything you want with football, we have it. We have it there. We have it on the website. We're going to have it on this podcast

because doing an all football pod, first Shilka Padia from the Ringer, we're going to break down all of our favorite things that we liked and didn't like about free agency through the first day and a half or so.

I have a Kirk Cousins take. I have a Jets take. I have a Washington take. I have a Saquon Barkley take. I have a Mahomes take. I got lots of takes. And then Julian Edelman, one of the greatest playoff receivers in the history of the National Football League, a great patriot, and somebody who for some reason has never been on this podcast. We're going to talk about all kinds of Pat stuff, Tom Brady, dynasties, and Rob Gronkowski,

and goes in a bunch of directions. So this is a very fun football podcast. No basketball today, just football. It's all next. First, our friends from ProJet. All right, Shil Kapati is here from The Ringer. We're going to talk free agency. We're taping this early afternoon Pacific time on Tuesday.

So we've had, I don't know, like 28 to 30 hours of stuff happening. Shil, I'm going to start here. And you covered some of this on Ringer NFL show. So I'm trying to zag a little bit and go bigger picture themes. I realize you're an NBA fan, so you'll be able to follow this. I realized the NFL and NBA are in very similar spots right now. Where in the NBA, it's like,

how the hell are we going to beat Jokic? And you're probably not going to. And the NFL, it's like, how the hell are you going to beat Mahomes? And if he has a good enough team, you're probably not going to. Do you think that shaped at all how the NFL teams have approaches for agency? Not just how do we get better, but how do we beat Mahomes? I think you see I'm taking two different approaches. And one is that obviously the

easiest way is to get a guy, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, where you're always in the... Remember those Colts teams. It was like, they weren't always in the Superbowl, but it was like be in the mix every year. And one year things will fall our way, whether it's injuries, penalties, whatever, another team slumping and we'll win the Superbowl then. So there's that strategy where if you're the Bills, that's what you do. And then the other one is you have to be creative because there's only so many Josh Allen. So it's like, if we can build the whole team well, and then plug in a Jared Goff or a Brock Purdy, can we beat him that way? So I think Mahomes obviously factors into it. They're just in that spot where they're going to be one of the last four teams standing every time, but there's no great formula to beat them because the way they won the Super Bowl last year was very different than how they won the Super Bowl in previous seasons.

Yeah. I mean, I'm looking at it with the Pats with this third pick where I know it's a 45-55 coin flip, whatever you want to say the odds are, but I just don't know how you don't take a quarterback with whatever is left because I have no chance in the conference otherwise. Not only is it Mahomes, but it's Allen in the same division. It's Burrow on a really good Bengals team. It's Herbert, if they can ever figure out what's going on with the Chargers. And you can't take the knife into the freaking gunfight. So that's one piece of it. But then what you said about how Detroit build their team, that's the other way to do it, right? That's where like if you're in the number three pick, you trade backwards.

You try to pick up as much stuff as possible and then you try to do that makeshift transition QB or you take, you roll the dice with somebody like Goff. But I don't know that, even Detroit like didn't work, right? They only, they didn't make it. So I don't know, what would you pick? Would you do the coin flip on the QB or would you try to build the whole team strategy? So it's so funny because it depends. If I'm the GM and I'm like, I have maybe three to five years

and then I'm getting fired if this doesn't work, it's one tactic. If I'm the owner, I would encourage the GM, let's take big swings on young quarterbacks. Cause if you hit on one of these guys, like, like that, that's the way, that's the way you're in the mix. And you're able to, to have sustained success. Cause you're right about golf. When you do it that way, we haven't seen a team that is really now golf's probably better than some of the other guys who have made it that far, but we haven't seen a team without like the elite quarterback consistently be in the mix. Like you can get there one year, have a great run, be in the Superbowl, be in the NFC championship. But

can you have like a three to five year run where you feel like you really have a window to win one and you're always in the mix? So like I would, I always encourage to like, I'm like, take the big swing at quarterback. It's not going to work sometimes. And it's easy for me to say, cause my job's not on the line and you're going to fail sometimes. But if you do that, if you take enough like dice rolls at it and eventually you hit one, now you have like a nice long stretch

where you can figure out how to build the rest of the team and really be in it. So that's what I would say. Well, the Niners would have agreed with you when they traded up for Trey Lance, right? And ironically, it turns out to be pretty. Carolina would have agreed with you.

They just went for the wrong guy. They took Bryce Young. It turned out if they did that for CJ Stroud, Tepper looks like an absolute genius. Exactly. 100%. Yeah. So they got the wrong guy. It's funny to think of that alternate universe where if they picked Stroud instead of Young, and now how we're talking about them, And maybe you're leading this with like, you got to take the big swing at quarterback, because look at what the Panthers did with CJ Stroud. So there's so much luck involved that we don't like to admit it, but there's no doubt about it. Yeah. Maybe they keep Brian Burns instead of trading him. Maybe they just pay him. Yeah. I mean, there was so much discourse about Carolina the last 24 hours.

Any winners and losers column, if they weren't your first and biggest loser, going back, look, that Burns story about whatever the Rams were willing to give up, whether it was two firsts, there might've been a second. I don't know exactly what it was, but they kept him for an extra year. They got nothing out of it. And they traded him for 22 cents on the dollar on top of everything they gave him for an extra year. They got nothing out of it. And they traded him for 22 cents on the dollar on top of everything they gave away for Bryce Young. And then the ultimate ignominy of the future first you trade

ends up being the number one pick, which is the absolute nadir if you're a football team. And if you're a fan of the football team, and we have one on staff, Stephen Ruiz, Panthers fan, but this is, you can't rock bottom out more than this, right? Yeah. I was actually, I was actually thinking of the NBA parallel with Brian Burns. Cause you guys always talk about, hold on to the asset. You might not want the guy for the longterm, but, but like, don't just let him go. And so they had this asset in Brian Burns that two years ago, it's been widely reported. This wasn't just like a one per...

Five times it's been reported. The Rams offered two firsts and a second for Brian Burns just two years ago. And then at the deadline this last year, five teams were interested in trading for Brian Burns. So they don't sell high at all. Now, you have two options here. I think one, just sign the guy long-term. He's 26 years old. He's a pass rusher. He's been productive. Your roster sucks. Hold on to the good player and do it that way. That would have been a reasonable move or two. If you want to sell hot, sell, sell high, like make sure you're getting something

good for him before you move on. They do neither like what they should have done, Bill. Like, let's say if they're like, we don't want him long-term. Maybe they know something about him that we don't know that's always possible. Sign him to that contract. If Brian Burns has 12 sacks next year, guess what? Those monster offers are going to be back on the table. He's going to be 27 years old. So they don't do that. So right now, I mean, I was looking at all their moves earlier today. And to me, they are the dumpster fire organization in the NFL right now. Their roster stinks.

Their process stinks. Their owner stinks. Like if you're a Panthers fan, this is a real dire spot. And this is for me, somebody who's like not out totally on Bryce Young yet. Like I'm still, let's see another year with him. But man, I just don't like anything they do

and how they operate. Well, and on top of it, to try to justify the Bryce Young pick. So where did they direct their resources this year? Offensive line. You got to get a better offensive line because you're trying to make the Bryce Young pick work, right? So you take the Burns money. Now you kind of shift that to the line because you want to put him in the best possibility

to succeed. But losing McCaffrey, you lose Burns, you lose DJ Moore, you lose the first pick in the draft, you lose all the other stuff they lost. You're right. It used to be the Lions and the Browns. Those were the dumpster fires. Those were the consistent bad teams we have. Near the end of the line, Al Davis Raiders, all the way through Gruden, I think have been pretty bad. Maybe there's signs I hope now, but Carolina is like, if we're having relegation, this would be the first thing we did. One thing on the Chiefs I forgot to mention. So they locked down Chris Jones. Your Eagles, who every time it's just, they're always in on three big free agents.

And I want to talk about that in a second, But these certain teams are just like, I'm going to spend, I'm going to get the blue chipper, or I'm going to spend, I'm going to keep my blue chipper. And that's just their mentality. But it seems like the smarter teams have been over and over again, able to keep most of their blue chippers. I thought for sure Jones was going to lead the Chiefs. It just seemed inconceivable to me with the Mahomes contracts and the other stuff. How are they going to continue to have him and Kelsey, all these other guys? And yet they kept them. Were you surprised by that? Yeah. Going into free agency, it was like Chris Jones and LeJarius Sneed. They had these two guys, made their two best players probably on defense last year, and they won the Super Bowl with

defense for the most part that run. So I was curious because when it drags on, as long as it did with Chris Jones, like this goes back to last year, you start thinking like, they're not going to be able to reach an agreement. Then I think you win the Superbowl. Everyone's feeling so good after a Superbowl that it's just like, come on, we're not going to call this quits now, are we? And so they decide to hold on to him. It was big money, but I was like, you know, I always think about it from a fan's perspective. You're like, do you want, are you want the team to like be risk averse and be like, oh, we don't want to pay a guy who's 30

that much money. Or are you like, let's win as many super bowls as possible right now. And so it's his age, 30, 31 and 32 seasons. Like he's a defensive tackle. I get nervous when cornerbacks are 30 defensive tackles it's like they can still perform uh at that level so i'm with you the good organizations they're blue chip players they never hit the market like you don't just let them walk in free agency and like right if you're gonna trade them that's one thing but you don't just let them walk in free agency so i thought the way they handled that was actually awesome i think they might still trade legerius need he's on the franchise tag, but they keep Chris Jones.

And now you have a core piece in place here as you try to win more Super Bowls. Let's talk about Saquon Barkley. I'm going to frame the question like this. What if Saquon Barkley has been awesome all along? What if he's just really good? And we had no idea because if you're going to say he comes in the league, I'm on record. Fortunately, and unfortunately I had, we have some Twitter video that we cut out of one of my pods where I was like,

I think he's the most talented running back I've ever seen. But you think like, all right, let's look at those. Let's look at that Giants run, the quarterbacks that he played. Warren Sharpe had this, 37 games with Danny Dimes, 20 with Washed Eli, 17 games with DeVito, Tyrod Taylor, Glennon, and Jake Fromm. He tore his ACL. And he tore his ACL during the season. So then you come back the next season,

you're not totally the same. You're in a division with Philly and Dallas, who's always spending money and is always good. Your offensive line sucks. You've had coach turmoil the whole time. They had a bottom five offensive line last year. How do we even know if Saquon Barkley is good? So now you take him from that, you put him on your team where you can plug in basically any running back and there's holes. You got a good offensive line, you got a good quarterback, you got weapons. What if he's awesome? Is that possible? Uh, it's possible. Yeah. The way I framed it, I, we did a ringers Philly special and I was kind of a wet blanket, uh, on the moves that the Eagles made so far. But the way I look at it, it's like, if you are an Eagles fan, your team got more fun. Sundays are going to be awesome

next year. You add Saquon Barkley to the mix with A.J. Brown, Devontae Smith, Jalen Hurts. It's going to be more fun. And then if I look at it with the try to be a GM hat on, I'm still like, well, like you mentioned, they had a top five rushing offense last year in DVOA. They were first the year before, and that was with Miles Sanders and DeAndre Swift. So do you need to be spending $12.6 million per year on a guy like Saquon Barkley? But what you said, that's the scenario that Eagles fans are dreaming of right now. It's like, yes, the run game was awesome, but now a 12-yard run is going to turn

into a 25-yard run. And Saquon Barkley is just going to be this weapon and defensive coordinators aren't going to know what to do when you've got another guy there. So I think it's possible. I mean, my skepticism is only, he said, what, over 600 touches the last two years and running backs on second contracts. Like we just see it over and over again. Oftentimes it doesn't pan out. Now, sometimes it does. And maybe he'll be the exception. Cause when you said that back in the day, like Barkley, when he came into the league, you were just like, this guy can do things that we haven't seen a lot of backs do. And like, it feels like he can break off a 50 yard run every time he touches the ball and he can catch the ball and he can pass protect these built.

And so he had everything you would be looking for. So it's going to be fun. I think Eagles fans are mostly pumped about it. And then you have like a nerd in every group chat like me, like, I don't know if you need to be spending that much on a running back. So I think that's the way it's played out right now. Well, isn't it a little similar to McCaffrey going to the Niners where the trade happens and then we get a first round pick for him.

He had been banged up the two years before. There was a sense like, hey, this fucking guy can't stay in the field. That's it. And then there were some other people like, no, no, you don't understand. This is like the perfect Niners guy. You put him with Shanahan. He's never been on a team like this. Like this is like his ceiling

has gone way up. The ceiling went way up in the trade. Now you look back and like, man, all they did was give up, you know, a second, a third, a fourth and a fifth. They got one of the five best guys in the league. I guess the question for me is how many running backs make an actual difference? You lose Swift, right?

Swift goes to the Bears for like $8 million a year. It's like, if I'm going to spend $8 million a year on DeAndre Swift, I'd either rather spend $14 a year on Saquon, or I'd either rather spend 14 a year on Saquon or I'd rather cut corners and just get like Antonio Gibson for like 3 million a year. I don't want to be in the middle with like the $8 million guy. So why not take the swing? I agree with that. I thought that Swift, I was shocked that they paid him 8 million. It was like the first signing. I'm like, DeAndre Swift is like the first signing for $8 million. Even the Giants, they let Barkley walk. And then they signed Devin Singletary for like over $5 million per year.

I'm like, if you want to just not pay a running back, don't pay a running back. But why are you paying Devin Singletary $5 million per year? The McCaffrey thing is a great call because I was probably on potting with Solak saying the 49ers shouldn't do this deal. I was probably making the same points that I'm making right now about Saquon Barkley. Now, the question is like how many, like you said, how many people reach that level? Like it's possible with Saquon Barkley. I think right now McCaffrey is doing things that like no one else is able to do. He's probably in his own tier. but to your point, are we having this conversation in

week eight next year to what you just said? Wow. Barkley now has the best offensive line he's ever played with. He has a quarterback who's a run threat. The point with the Niners is that Kyle Shanahan knew what to do with Christian McCaffrey. That's where the Eagles stripped Nick Sirianni of all his offensive control, and they brought in Kellen Moore as the new offensive coordinator. Will Kellen Moore have a plan for how to feed A.J. Brown, how to feed Devontae Smith, how to feed Dallas Goddard, how to get Saquon Barkley the ball, how to operate the offensive line without Jason Kelsey, how to get Jalen Hurts

better against the Blitz? This is a season where I believe Sirianni's job's on the line. If they don't make the playoffs, if they're out early, I believe Sirianni's job's on the line. If they don't make the playoffs, if they're out early, I don't think he's back coaching the team in 2025. I think they've thought about making a move this year. So now it's not Sirianni. It's like, well, now this offensive coordinator you brought in, does he know what to do with Barkley and all these people? It really feels like a boomer bus team to me. I'm not there where I'm making predictions for 2025, but I really can convince myself that it's going to go either way for them.

How many running backs truly matter other than McCaffrey? That's the thing. Last year, James Cook, who was an afterthought for, I don't know, the first six weeks of the season, by the end of the year, he was like the third or fourth best running back in the league. Yeah. And next year, I don't even know if that would be the case, but you know, it just feels like if, if Saquon can do, can have a similar impact to what McCaffrey had with the Niners,

just like, holy shit. Yeah. We had all these other guys, this guy's at a whole other level combined with some sort of, some, other guys, this guy's at a whole other level combined with some sort of urgency on offense and some sort of hire and thought. That was what was, we talked about this when you came on during the season. You'd watch the Eagles and you're like, man, what's going on with this team? Why is the pace so slow? Why does everything seem so labored? Why is it not fun to watch a team that

has these weapons? It was like looking at somebody's garage and seeing all these nice cars and then watching them just drive like a beaten up Jeep or something. You have all these cars in the garage. So I think with the weapons now, I'm kind of excited. And we're also going to get a nice little referendum on Hertz. How good is Hertz? Because that's another question that's kind of up in the air.

Yeah. Your body language thing. I was thinking to you when Jalen Hurts was on Abbott elementary, my wife is like, Oh, that's, Oh, he's smiling. Like he looks so happy. Like, you know, you watch every game and it's like, what is going on with this quarterback and with this, this team? So you saw a different side of him. Yeah, I think you're right. And what direction do they go in? Like is adding Saquon Barkley? Is this like, we're going to run the football more? We don't want to put so much into the passing game. Is it just, I know for a fact, like the Eagles have looked at Shanahan and the Niners before and been like, Shanahan's on the cutting edge of offensive football, like the stuff he's doing. We need to, and this is at like a GM ownership level. They were thinking,

so I do wonder if they watched McCaffrey last year, maybe other teams had the same thought this off season and were like, all right, you know, we haven't spent big on running backs in the past, but if he's making that much of a difference for them, not to say Barkley's McCaffrey, but if we can find some version of that, maybe it's not the worst idea when, you know, you're paying a tight end who's average like $12 million. Would you rather have that? or would you rather have Saquon Barkley? So that might be another thing. The running back salaries have not skyrocketed and so other positions have. And so maybe that's part of the calculus as well. My thing is if I'm getting one of the three or four best guys at a position,

I don't mind overpaying for that. And you're seeing that even with the guard position right now. For some reason, there's been a big guard because the cap jumped, people had money to spend, but for some reason, interior alignment this year became kind of a thing. I remember a few years ago, people got excited about tight ends coming off like Gronk and Kelsey, and all of a sudden, there's money, the pats that got Hunter Henry and Johnnie Smith. But now that's kind of faded back. It seems like safeties, that market is kind of dying and gone to a different place. Linebackers, for some reason, that seems like that's on the rise a little bit. It all depends on the trends. Do you feel like there's any rhyme or reason to it or just what people get a hard on for that season? Yeah. It just changes every year. Like guards

getting paid this kind of money is wild. You talked about the Panthers. I mean, they paid two guys monster money who have never made a, who are like fine starters, but I've never made like a pro bowl. Like even the offensive line nerds, they're not like excited about these two guys and the Rams. I mean, the Rams went huge after two guard, like this was their priority, shore up the interior of the offensive line. And then you have stuff like pass rushers, the edge market, the trade market doesn't look like it's there. Like Brian Burns, I thought would have got a lot more. The Eagles are trying to trade their two guys, Josh Sweat and Hassan Redick. And so far there's been no takers for those guys.

Whereas a couple of years ago, remember Bradley Chubb, the Broncos traded him to the Dolphins and they got a first round pick. And it was like, what's going on here? The Pats got Uche back for one year. And I think in the old days, Uche would have gotten three for 40, four for 50. And people are like, oh, Josh Uche, look at his sacks per play. But it does feel like one of the things that shifted over the last couple of years was these specialty pass rushers. And you took one with Nolan Smith. These specialty

guys, you can just kind of run them off the field. And now they're only playing 40% of the downs instead of all the downs. So to find those three it's a little like what happened with the tight end position. Can you find the three down edge guy versus the specialty guy? And it seems like the three down on both ends seems to be one of the trends. Can we keep this guy in the field? Yeah, no doubt. Pass rushers, linebackers, obviously like that. Safeties, how much can you do with everyone

playing two high safeties? Can they cover the tight end? Can they play back deep? Can they stop the run? Because yeah, when you try to do something and go small, now offenses are more likely. We saw it last year.

They'll say, all right, well, we're going to have a good run game and we're going to run those guys off the field and then we're going to put you in different personnel and then we're going to

throw the ball. It's like this ever, you know, the Jamal Adams on Seattle. Oh, Jamal Adams is out there. Let's spread it out. We'll get him off the field. You can't hide him.

Yeah, no doubt about it. All right. I have more stuff to throw at you, including a Kirk Cousins theory you might not be prepared for. But let's take a quick break. Bet the NBA with the no-sweat same-game parlay from Fando every Thursday with TNT Thursdays.

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Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, we're going to talk quarterbacks. Kirk Cousins. I'm going to plant my flag on this one. I think this was a mistake. I didn't like the signing.

Kirk Cousins to Atlanta, $100 million guaranteed to a guy who's going to be 36 years old in August and is coming off a torn Achilles. And this just, to me, seems like the classic, we've been burned so many times, here comes our hero. And you're just not even thinking rationally. In the last three years, they had washed up Matt Ryan, Marcus Mariota, who couldn't even finish the Netflix season, Taylor Heineke, and Desmond Ritter, who had an interception montage that I actually thought might've been deep faked by Falcons fans trying to get them to sign Cousins. So Cousins, he had two 10 win seasons in Minnesota. He's one in three career in the playoffs. He was the only one in Washington, one in two in Minnesota. In 15 and 16 in Washington,

he had Sean McVay as his offensive coordinator. He went 17 and 14 and one. Minnesota, he always had Diggs and Thielen, and then he had Jefferson and Thielen, and then he had Jefferson and Osgood. He always had weapons. They always had running backs, really, until last year with Madison Suck.

2018, week 17 to make the playoffs. I'm sorry, 2018. To make the playoffs, they have to beat Chicago and Mitch Trubisky. And they lose 24 to 10. 2019, they upset New Orleans and washed up Drew Brees in overtime in round one, get killed by San Francisco. They go seven and nine and they go eight and nine. And then in 22, they're 13 and four, that ridiculous aberration. Oh my God, that team should be eight and eight, but they're 13 and four.

And they lose to Danny Dimes and the New York Giants in round one. What am I paying for with Kirk Cousins other than the chance to lose in round one? What am I doing? You mentioned the Netflix show with Mariota. I really feel like that Netflix show and Cousins getting injured last year, the whole thought consensus on Kirk Cousins has changed so much in the last 12 months. I mean, he used to be someone I would make fun like, all right, you're not going anywhere with Kirk Cousins.

He was like, yeah, he was like the line you had to get over. Is he better than Kirk Cousins? But now listen to how people talk about Kirk. It's crazy. Like what you said, I was looking up stuff earlier today. How many times he was in Minnesota for six seasons? I think. How many times do you think they had a top 10 passing DVOA offense in Minnesota with him? Six seasons. One time. One time out of six seasons. Now he's 36, coming off an Achilles, like you mentioned, different supporting cast, different scheme. In Atlanta, I think it's exactly what you said. I think the owner in Atlanta looked around and said, I'm tired of sitting here on Sundays in the fall,

watching Marcus Mariota, Desmond Ritter. I can't do another year. I can't do another year. I only have so many years left. I can't do another year. I can't do another year. I only have so many years left. I'm not watching this slop. I didn't buy a team to watch those guys play quarterback. So it kind of goes back to what you asked me in the beginning. Like, how do you compete with Mahomes and win a Super Bowl? That's what some teams are thinking about. Other organizations are looking at it like the last three years have been the Arthur Smith, you know, era was a disaster. I want to have fun watching my team. Maybe we'll win the NFC South. Maybe we'll win a playoff game

if we do. It doesn't really matter. If we lose in the first round, that's okay. We're in the playoffs. This is not a move you make if you're like, we need to do the best thing for the franchise to win a Super Bowl. This is a move you make if you say, we want to raise the floor. We want to be competent. The owner's tired of being embarrassed. Other people want to keep their jobs. And you're like, all right, we'll sign Kirk Cousins. So I think he'll operate like, I don't know, what do you think, the 12th or 14th best starter in the NFL? I have my list. I'm glad you asked. Okay. All right. Okay. Perfect.

My initial QB tears. Ready? Mahomes on his own. Okay. tiers. Ready? Mahomes on his own. Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, and Stroud I think are the next five. I couldn't put Stroud lower than six. There's no way he's not going to be better. From what we saw, he'll be

like, I don't know, 10% better. Next tier, so that's six. Stafford, Hertz, Dak, Love, and Purdy. I think Purdy has to be on there. Now I'm at 11. Next tier, Rogers, Goff. Now I'm at 13. Now I'm dropping Lawrence Cousins to Mayfield Kyler in some order.

And that's from 14 to 18. What's your biggest disagreement with that list? Well, I really don't want to be the person who is on here stumping for Trevor Lawrence, but I think there's probably a case that he's just one tier up. I don't need to put him in the elite category. So you put him in the Rodgers-Goff? You'd have him as the third guy in that tier? Yeah. Wait, I think...

And Purdy, like, would you rather have Purdy than Goff? That one I was like... Okay, so I can move Purdy down a tier? Yeah, there's a lot of guys in there that were... I was like... And I just...

I'm leading the Jordan Love hype train, but I think you had him in the right tier. It's been one year as a starter there, and so I think that was fine. So, okay, you have him right... You have Cousins right there. Let me do it again. I'm going to take more notes.

Let me take more notes. Mahomes. Allen Burrow, Lamar, Herbert Stroud, Stafford hurts, Dak loves. So I would make love number 11. Would you have love ahead of Dak? Uh,

for, for one year, probably not. It's a good, I might, I might, I love love. Yeah.

I think he's, uh, he's fantastic. It's in the mix. So then another drop. Rodgers, Purdy, Goff, Lawrence, in some order. All of them upside with one thing that makes you go, so Purdy, it's like,

meanwhile, what else does he have to show us? The guys, two years in a row, led teams that had a chance to win a Super Bowl. First time he gets hurt. Last year, comes down a two-third down plays where the defense called a great look on him, right? Rodgers, I have no idea. You can tell me Rodgers is going to be two tiers higher or two tiers lower. Goff, that's right around where he should be. Lawrence is the one. I just don't know if Lawrence is good.

I have no idea. I think that's fair. I mean, I just look at it as who are the guys who, probably the only guys you know, if you have them, you're going to be in the mix. It might only be Mahomes and Allen. Allen, they're doing all this stuff. And guess what?

They're still probably going to have a top-8 offense. I think Burrow's in there for me. I think Burrow's a guaranteed 10 wins. Yeah, the only reason I didn't put him right away was maybe the durability. He's had a couple seasons, but I love Burrow. I'm in on Burrow. Stroud, you could honestly make the case as high as three for me, and I wouldn't be laughing at you.

Yeah, Stroud versus Herbert is like an actual argument. I would take Stroud right now. I mean, look at what he did with that support. I think football outsiders had. It was like the most injured offensive line since they've started tracking this stuff. And for other quarterbacks, you're making excuses for that, right? For him, he's a rookie. He's got Nico Collins and not a lot else.

And look how good he can elevate. And injuries. So he was able to elevate his group. So I like Stroud in that top tier. And when I do the trade value updates in the summer for NFL, I'm afraid to know how high I'm going to put CJ Stroud there. I mean, Dak is still... CJ Stroud could be a top five guy.

Oh, yeah. Oh, five. Right? CJ Stroud could be a top five guy oh yeah oh five right like higher than five he might be top three he might be three he might be three for me when you factor in the rookie contract because if it's like

Stroud and those other guys so anyway so that last tier with Cousins Tua Mayfield and Kyler I think is the right spot

for Cousins at 36 years old coming off an Achilles injury. And you can say like, well, why wouldn't Rogers be there? He's 40 years old coming off an Achilles, but I don't know. Rogers just has a better track record than if he's older. Yeah. I'm probably lower on Mayfield than you are in that group. I would have him lower there. Kyler is a hard one to predict. But yeah, I think that's around the right spot where if the supporting cast is good,

there's like all these guys, there's probably 12 guys where you could say if the supporting cast is good and the coaching is good, you could have them as high as maybe like eight or you could have them as low as 20. Like it is a wide group there. Once you get beyond the, you know,

five, six, seven, 8 guys who you feel really good about. I think that's probably where Cousins is. Now it's just a matter of how good is that supporting cast? What's their ceiling going to be? I would pick them to win the division next year. Honestly, how good is that supporting cast? Do you absolutely love Drake London?

Do you absolutely love Kyle Pitts? I'm like, they have potential. I wouldn't say, I had both of them on fantasy teams, so I watched them pretty closely. Jake Lennon, he'd have a couple big games, but do I think he's going to be

a top five receiver? No. And then Bijan, I don't know. That's one where he might be awesome next year and it wouldn't be shocking. Yeah, it's so much based on just where they were drafted. And you're like, well, that Arthur Smith era was not great in Atlanta.

But you're right. Drake London is not Justin Jefferson. That matters a lot for the... I mean, we've watched... There were games where Justin Jefferson is just taking the game over. By himself. It really didn't matter who was throwing him the football.

There's nobody like that on the Falcons. So it's a group with potential, but I'm with you, unproven. I think you convinced me. I've been on the fence with the Cousins thing, like not having a firm stance. I think I want to join you. That's good. Come with me too.

I honestly think you were right about the Netflix thing. I think it shifted the narrative on him in a really weird way and people felt bad because he got hurt and the outpouring from his teammates. I mean, the big thing, if you're going to make the case for the signing for Atlanta,

other than what you said about the owner, was he's an awesome, awesome, awesome locker room guy and a leader and somebody that can come in and at least now you have somebody who can drive your car. Whether he can drive it well enough,

I guess we'll find out. I was looking at, on Fandle, they have some of the division odds. And this Cousin thing, it surged the Falcons. They're like minus 110, minus 115 now to win the NFC South. I'm like, to me, it's like there's no... First of all, to say those are the odds at this point is ridiculous. We don't even have the draft yet. But I just don't think them versus Tampa, them versus New Orleans, to me, that's a crapshoot.

So if I'm getting over 3-1 value on the Saints or the Bucs, I'm just grabbing that over thinking Atlanta is going to be a prohibitive favorite. I don't see that at all. Yeah. Okay. Next thing I had to throw at you. Also quarterback related. So Pittsburgh,

they get Russell Wilson and Russell Wilson is weirdly like a prize because Denver pays for his whole salary. So you could pay Russell Wilson the least amount of money possible. They're paying Wilson and Pickett $5 million combined at the QB position. So it's basically like lower rookie scale. So it's great. Congratulations. On the other hand, you kind of get what you pay for. So, oh, cool. We're only paying $5 million for our quarterbacks.

That's great. Your quarterbacks are Russell Wilson and Kenny Pickett. They have no playoff wins since 2016. They've had no good quarterbacks since 2017. They had washed up Ben Roethlisberger for a couple years, Mason Rudolph, Mitch Trubisky, Kenny Pickett. This is

almost like a job preservation strategy to me. Where if you don't have a quarterback or you're trying to cut corners with your QB and then the rest of the team looks at you like, well, man, if we had a quarterback, it would be amazing. But you know you can't get one. They took a swing with Pickett. It didn't totally work out. And I'm not saying this is why Mike Tomlin wants to do it this way, but it is a great way to keep your job. You're never getting blamed if your quarterbacks suck every year.

We saw Russell Wilson last year. He wasn't good. Peyton was terrified to have him do anything, and Russell Wilson didn't want to get hit. So why would he be good on Pittsburgh? I don't see it at all. Do you see any silver lining? No.

I mean, like you said, it's a low-risk move because it it's 1.2 million. If it doesn't work out, who cares? You didn't give up any draft capital. He's cheap. So there's that one end of it, but I'm with you. I wanted the Steelers and they signed Patrick Queen, the linebacker today. I thought that was good value. Like I actually, I would be getting duped by the, you know, that you said the self-preservation thing. I would be like, yeah, this team would be really good if it had a quarterback. Like if you plugged in a quarterback who I liked and it doesn't even have to be an elite guy like that group of quarterbacks, you mentioned that we're in that middle class where it's like, well, it depends on the supporting cast. If you put one of those guys on this team, I would be very interested in this team.

I like their defense. I like their running backs. I like their wide receivers. I like Tomlin. I think Arthur Smith as an offensive coordinator, he's done more with less in the past in Tennessee. Like there's a lot that I like there, but this just leaves me going like what you said, like, come on, what is your ceiling with 36 year old Russell Wilson as your quarterback in this scheme? Like you're not, you're not going anywhere with that. All those quarterbacks you mentioned in the AFC, I mean, come on, you have no chance to compete with those guys. So I'm not saying it's easy,

but yeah, I went into this off season being like, come on, Pittsburgh, take some kind of swing at a quarterback with upside and let's see what it looks like. And they're not doing that. I think Russell Wilson will kind of raise the floor and he'll give you better play than Kenny Pickett, but he's not going to give you great play at this stage of his career. And so you're just a limited team once again. And now next off season, you're going to have to figure out your quarterback plan. I mean, I don't think they should have done Minshew either. I thought Vegas getting Minshew for 12 million is in a lot of ways, almost worse. He's okay. It's a stopgap. But that situation he was in,

the Colts being with Steichen, I just don't see other teams pulling that same kind of thing. I thought Steichen was incredible last year. There's two that I thought were interesting. One is Brissette that New England got. And they got him for one for eight. Brissette's better than Russell. And they got him for one for eight. I just like Brissette's better than Russell Wilson at this point of his career.

I don't think there's any argument. I still like Jameis as like a what the fuck. And I think that would have been a really interesting Pittsburgh guy. He ends up going to Cleveland. But Jameis can pull you in the game or he can take you out of it. But his teammates do rally around him and he has had moments like Russell Wilson. It's over. Like, this is a wrap. I guess I would be more interested in the picket piece of this if I was a Steelers fan,

because you could talk yourself in a picket, got hurt last year at a great preseason. You know, it just was like the year from hell. Maybe there's something there. There's nothing there with Russell Wilson. What did you think about the Steelers as a Justin Fields team? I mean, nobody wants Justin Fields. I think that's clear. I loved it. Now, I don't know what it's going to take to get him. I mean, is it going to be a fourth round pick? Is it going to be lower? I don't know. He still has one year on his rookie salary. I'm not there with everyone who thinks Justin Fields is going to be

amazing, just the right situation. But I at least see the flashes and like that would have made more sense to me. Maybe there's only a 5% chance that he's going to be really good, but it's not going to take much to get him. And I was also thinking about this when they signed Russell Wilson, like the best version of Justin Fields is kind of like younger Russell Wilson, right? Where he's going to take a lot of sacks, but he can chuck it downfield. He can run around, he can scramble.

And so that was a team I was looking at it at the start of the off season. Like maybe you take a, I know he takes a lot of sacks and is going to fumble, but like with Tomlin there, like I could kind of see it in my, would you be more excited if you're a Steelers fan with giving up, let's say a fourth for Justin Fields

or signing Russell Wilson? Everyone would say Fields, right? There's no question. I don't even know if you have to give up a fourth. The team that I was thinking for Fields, and maybe they can't do it because the same division was Minnesota. I don't see the Sam Darnold thing at all. Like at all. At all. I think a couple of the ringer fantasy guys

like Darnold a little bit. Like they were doing the... If you just replaced him with Purdy, maybe it's somewhere. I just see he cannot throw... You're either accurate or you're not. If you can't consistently throw passes to the guys in your team,

it's not happening. And we have a huge, huge sample size of them. I'll never get over that Carolina-Tampa game. And it just feels like teams could figure them out. And if you're Minnesota, it's like, all right, I totally get letting Cousins go. But I still want to, I'm going to pay Justin Jefferson all this money.

Your quarterback is now Sam Darnold? Justin Jefferson's going to be the new Larry Fitzgerald. He's just trapped with these shitty quarterbacks for eight years. I like some of the other stuff Minnesota did. I like the linebackers they got. They got a pass rusher.

They're actually trying to build something. I thought Van Ginkle, he was one of my favorite free agents. He was a guy on league pass that jumped out, but then to be like, and here's your quarterback, Sam Darnold.

That's fucking crazy to me. Yeah, They're, they're in such an, cause they have good offensive tackles. They have an awesome number one wide receiver. They looks like they hit on Jordan Addison last year. Like there's the coach, Kevin O'Connell seems like a pretty good coach. Like they have a lot of pieces in place where it's like, if you could find a quarterback and they just had cousins, then the offense could be good. And then you have Flores on defense where he was working with like no talent last year and they were still pretty good for most of the season. Now you add some talent in free agency. So I do wonder.

I know Solak is convinced that the Vikings are going to draft a quarterback. So I was going to ask you, as you were talking, I was looking at the draft trying to figure out. So they're 11th. So they're so they're J.'re JJ McCarthy waiting to happen then. It's baffling. It feels like every team is linked to JJ McCarthy. I am just someone who watched football on Saturdays in the fall. I had to ask Solak, I'm like, what is happening with the JJ McCarthy discourse here? Did I miss something? And he was like, no, I don't necessarily think so. So it seems like NFL teams love him.

And it just feels like teams like, are the Raiders now going to make a move at quarterback? The Giants, what are the Giants doing at six? And then the Vikings. So there's all these teams that are sort of in that top 15 that could be interested and the quarterbacks could go flying off the board. So yeah, I mean, I don't even, yeah, like,

I don't know if the Vikings traded back and took like a pennix. I haven't studied these guys on film yet. I've been in free agency mode, but I don't know. That's like sort of interesting to me, you know? We should mention you're on the ringer.com. You have a massive free agency breakdown

with like reactions to everything. So if you go after the top three, Arizona four, no QB, Chargers five, no QB, Giants six, maybe. Tennessee seven, everyone's like, no, no, they got Will Levis. Like, eh, do they? Eight Atlanta, no. Nine Chicago, no. 10 Jets, no. 11 Vikings, 12 Broncos, 13 Raiders. So my guess is we're coming out of that with the other two QBs will be gone. Somebody will talk themselves into panics

and they'll talk himself into the medicals and all that stuff. But there's also a possibility, we've seen this in other drafts, where it's like, oh, all those guys will go. And then they pass a certain point and they just start dropping like a fucking rock. You know, it's like, wow,

I could get Michael Penix with the 34th pick. This happened to Lamar a couple of years ago. The Pats passed him. I think it was Kyle and I were watching. They passed him at 22 or 23. And then he was coming up again on the clock at 31 and they traded out of the pick and Baltimore took him. I can't

imagine if you're going to have Justin Jefferson and Addison. Addison looked really good last year. How do you give them Sam Darnold? I don't get it. I'm with you on Darnold. I am not part of the people who think hold out hope for Sam Darnold. I have seen enough

where I don't need to see any more of Sam Darnold. All right. Two small things and then we'll go. Smaller gambling things. The AFC East right now on FanDuel, the Bills are plus 130 favorites. I can't say the Bills team is going to be the same.

I mean, the secondary, which was a huge thing of what made them them, it's basically, you know, that's done. They lost Gabe Davis. They're losing people around the fringes. They brought back Jones, which is good. But Bills plus 130, that's basically, that goes back to what you said

in one of the preseason pods to Solak last year. It's like, Josh Allen is just, I'm penciling in 10 and 7. That's it. They have Josh Allen. That's 10 and 7. Miami Dolphins, plus 190. No question they're worse. I mean, they lost Wilkins.

They already had waves, Zabian Howard, before the free agency started. They lost their center. They lost, I mean, they've lost people all over the place. And then the Jets are at plus 290. Do those odds seem right to you? Bills plus 130, Dolphins plus 190, the Jets plus 290. They were 7-10 last year with the worst QB situation in the league. Rodgers coming back. They have the 10th pick in the draft. Easier schedule. Why are they plus 290? Because they're the Jets?

So you're saying that the Jets should have better odds than the Dolphins? I'm trying to figure out which way. You think they're going to absolutely suck, or you think they have a chance, actually, to be undervalued? I think this division is... I think they're undervalued. Oh, this has to be a first for the Bill Simmons spot. You think the Jets are undervalued?

I think they're undervalued. I think plus 290 is an undervaluing. I'm shocked. That's why I had to ask the follow-up because I listened before I worked for it. I couldn't believe that that was. Just fundamentally, who has more talent, Miami or the Jets? Throw in the 10th pick for the Jets and Rodgers comingets? Throw in the 10th pick for the Jets. And Rodgers coming back.

Throw in the 10th pick for the Jets. It's arguable, right? Yeah. The Jets have more talent on defense, no doubt about it. And then the Jets are good at wide receiver and running back. I'm with you souring on the Dolphins. I think they're taking a step back next year. They had to get rid of all these guys. They're in a bad cap situation. They couldn't beat a good team last year. They lose Vic Fangio. So the case for the Jets, they were seven and 10 last year

with Zach Wilson and the absolute worst offense in the NFL. And they were seven and 10. They weren't like three and 14. They were seven and 10 with a couple of losses that were like, holy shit. How did we lose that game? Yeah, it easily could have been nine and eight. So I don't think I'm going to talk myself into them, but I think you're right. That the kind of high watermark for them, like there is a scenario now they, their offensive tackle situation is a disaster. They need a second wide receiver. There's like a lot of stuff they still need on offense, but you're right. They have the 10th overall pick. So you can address some of that stuff. 41 years old coming off an Achilles like Tyrod Taylor's now their backup. I mean, I don't feel great about it, but I can talk myself into a situation where

what you're saying is true, that they're undervalued and the best version of the Jets with guys staying healthy. They figure out the offensive line is like a 10 and 17 or something like that. I can get there eventually. Garrett Wilson and Brees Hall. Tyreek Hill, Jalen Waddle. I don't know. From a weapons standpoint, they're not completely over here. Garrett Wilson has the chance to be maybe a top five or six receiver in the league. The other thing with Tyreek is he's getting older. I thought he was weird last year. Weird. It's like, are you hurt? Are you not hurt? You limped off again. Now you're back. Wait, you're limping off again. Now you're done. Your helmet's off. I just thought he was really erratic last year.

I don't, I, I'm shorting Miami and buying Jetstock. And, and I think that division is wide open. Okay. Wow. That's the best football take I've heard in March so far this season. I love it. Thank you. I don't even think it's a crazy take.

Yeah. There's three awesome receivers in the draft, right? What if the third one falls to them at 10? And now they have Wilson. They have the third receiver who's pissed that he went third and has a huge chip on his shoulder. And, you know, Brees Hall. And I don't know.

Rodgers, not betting against him being decent. All right, here's my last one. You thought my Jets take was good. What if Washington's good. What if Washington's good? All right. I don't know if I'm going to be on this one. Make the case. Can you just get in the car? I'm just going

to drive around the parking lot. Seems like they're taking Jaden Daniels second because they signed Mariota. They have cooked Kingsbury. There's clearly some sort of angle that they're developing. Now, I would be delighted if they took Daniels second because I like Drake May, but I'd also be delighted with Daniels. I'd be delighted for any quarterback who has potential. What if Jaden Daniels, they take him second,

he's good right away. He's older than May. He's 18 months older. He's explosive. We've seen quarterbacks who are exciting, just come in right away and be good. New coach upgrade. One of our favorite theories. They had the corpse of Ron Rivera last year and Eric BNMA, who by the way, not hired by anybody. Now they have Dan Quinn. They have all these nerds that came in. Adam Peters, a really good GM. They're kind of changing stuff. I really like their free agency. I like Frankie Luvo. I like Fowler. They got Eckler for cheap. Armstrong. They got a center. They got a guard. They got Brandon McManus, who I thought was a good kicker. They made moves around the fringes to the point that Joe House noted Washington sports cynic, just really a damaged Washington fan, was like, I really liked our offseason. This is great.

One more thing, Shield. They have the second pick. They have 36, 40, 67, 99, and 101. Easier schedule. There's a chance your team might be worse. And there's a chance Dallas might be worse. I don't know. I can't rule out Washington. That's my case. Okay. So I was actually, you know, maybe like six weeks ago or so I was thinking about them and I was like, they could be good right away. If they get a rookie quarterback who doesn't have to be CJ Stroud, but he's like mediocre,

they have a chance because I like Terry McLaurin. I like the wide receivers. I think they have some good defensive tackles. Like there are some pieces there, Dan Quinn. I actually like the coach theory because especially it would work here because no one's expecting it to be Dan Quinn. Like they didn't want it to be Dan Quinn right away. I kind of like him as a retread option.

Like he had good years. Yeah, he had some good years in Atlanta. And then he kind of reinvented himself as a defensive coordinator. So I like it there. My hesitation is with who's running the offense and Cliff Kingsbury. I'm not saying he's going to stink. I didn't see it from him as an NFL coach running the Arizona Cardinals. I did not see him as a guy who's going to look at all the pieces he has and say, I'm going to be able to make the most

of this. And we might not have the most talented group, but I'm going to get more from it than is there. It was actually the opposite. I would watch it and be like, oh my gosh, other than Kyler Murray making a crazy play or DeAndre Hopkins making a crazy play, this offense doesn't do anything. So that is my big hesitation with the commanders. When a team has like a play caller or an offensive coordinator that I'm not sold on, and now you're adding in a rookie quarterback. Now I start going, ooh, what actually would have to kind of happen here for them to be good? So I don't think it's crazy. They have more off-season resources than any team in the NFL. I mean, it's crazy.

Five picks in the first three rounds. Would it have been crazy to say Houston was going to win the division last year? Yeah, that's true. It would have been crazy. We would have been like, what the fuck are you talking about? But it's a lot of the same model. They had a lot of picks. They hit with the quarterback right away.

They brought in a new coach. And their division was way more disappointing than I think we thought it was going to be. And those are the reasons. The NFC East odds on FanDuel. Dallas plus 115. Philly plus 135. Washington 10 to 1. They have worse odds than the Giants.

The Giants are 9 to 1. That's insane. Washington's going to be better than the Giants. That's not right. I agree with that. Yeah, I don't see that at all. I mean, the Giants should not be ahead of Washington. You mentioned Dallas.

Let me bring up one quick thing. I think maybe the biggest story that, and it's weird because it's the Cowboys, but it feels like it's under-discussed and it relates to Kirk Cousins, is what the leverage Dak Prescott has right now. Are you aware of the situation here? He's going into the final year of his contract, and his contract says he cannot be tagged. So Dak, can you imagine if Kirk Cousins just got four years and $180 million, if Dak Prescott, who is what, five, six years younger than Kirk Cousins,

and I think better than him. You can argue how much better than him. Like if he were to hit free agency next off season, what kind of contract he would get? So now the Cowboys are in this situation where they're like, well, we can't let him hit free agency. Like there's probably going to be a headline in the months ahead that are, that says Dak Prescott is the highest paid player in NFL history. And everyone's going to lose their minds because that's the only option that the Cowboys have. So the Cowboys haven't done anything in free agency, but I'm like, what are they going to do with this Dak Prescott situation? It's wild. Or he could study from the master, Kirk Cousins, the master get in the bag.

Yes. And just bet on himself year after year and do one year deals and two year deals. Yep. That's what Kirk did basically from what, 2016 on? It was either a one-year deal or a two-year deal. And it was always guaranteed. It was always the max amount of money possible. Honestly, if you're a QB, you're better off doing that than long-term deals.

That's what Mahomes should have done. Yeah, it's cool. You have, oh, look at this giant number and it's all these years down the road. Guess what, Mahomes? You're going to be the highest paid guy every single year unless you literally like an anvil falls on you or something like that. Even if you're hurt, you're going to be banking $50 million a year. So yeah, I mean, some people want to take the money. If Dak did the, I'm doing the cousins, what would Dallas do? I mean, okay, here's 55 million guaranteed for one year. I can't imagine what it would look like if he like, cause the cousins thing, the only, he's getting paid this much. Like you said, he knew how to play that. They couldn't be tagged. He said, I can hit free agency. If I want to hit free agency, that pretty

much never happens with the top 15 quarterback. And he's 36 for it to happen with the guy who was 31. Like, I don't think that's ever happened in NFL history where if we're at this time next year and it's like, where's Dak Prescott going to go? I mean, there's going to be some owner out there. It's going to be wild how much money he would make. Plus Dak and cousins.

They're basically the same guy and they're having the same career. All right. So to recap, there's no, there's no great way to beat my homes, build the team to beat him. You just got to do what team, to beat him. You just got to do what's best for your franchise. We don't know what Pittsburgh's doing.

I'm higher on Saquon Barkley than you, but you're at least open to the idea that maybe he's the new McCaffrey. You like my Jets. Maybe they're completely undervalued plus 290 AFCs. I pulled you into Kirk Cousins. Oh my God, this was a huge mistake, Island. And I can't win you over on Washington being confident. You're just swatting that to the side. You're not buying it. Yeah, I couldn't give in to all the argument. The Jets one is the biggest upset

of the pod, in my opinion so far. I'm like, well, he's making a good point there. You can hear Sheil on the Ringer Philly special breaking down. The Eagles are probably done, right? They're not doing anything dramatic for us. No, I think they're going to trade Josh Sweater or Son Reddick. And then I think they'll probably still add to the defense a little bit. I think they're taking some big swings this offseason. All right. Can you hear Sheil on the Ringer NFL show as well? And you can read them on theringer.com with all the free agency stuff. Plus we got trade value coming this

summer. Good to see you again, my friend. Thanks for having me. hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. All right, we almost did this like 17 times during the NFL season, but now we're finally doing it. There's a lot of scheduling glitches and conflicts, but now we're here.

Julian Edelman is here. It's great to see you. Great to see you too. Jumping into this world of podcasting, getting to be joined with one of the godfathers of this whole thing. Thank you. It's an honor, sir.

What are your, what are your Sundays like during this season now that you're not playing? Are you watching like 10 straight hours of NFL? Are you popping in and out? Like how into it are you?

So, I do the kickoff show on Fox. Right. After that, I'll sit with, you know with Terry, Howie, Jimmy, Michael. Oh, you stick around. I'll stick around for the first batch of games just to kind of learn how they prepare for their shows and stuff. And it's been great to just be a fly on the wall because I'm in this world now. And then after that, I get back to California or get back to my house here in LA.

And then, you know, I usually have a couple of friends over and I'm just watching football the whole time. I usually have three TVs. I'll have with the new football package on YouTube. It's been amazing because you can watch multiple games at once with the red zone and another. So, you know, there's just... I have TVs everywhere with games everywhere. Just watching, trying to pick up a note.

I'm on my phone the whole time. I have a team of Coast Productions that I'll sit and I'll literally just send voice memos. That was a great play by Joe Burrow. That was an unbelievable get off by Nick Bosa, third and four. And then they write it down and for the next week's shows, it kind of helps me to Joe Burrow. That was an unbelievable get off by Nick Bosa, third and four. And then they write it down and for the next week's shows,

it kind of helps me to pick from that and kind of give what I'm thinking. When you're watching a football game, what are you looking at? Because some people, they just look at the line. Some people look at the receivers. Some people look at just the

they watch it like I do, where they watch the quarterback go back. Some people look at the receivers. Some people look at just the they watch it like I do where they watch the quarterback go back. Some people can see everything at the same time. What are you concentrating on? First off, I always look at the situation. What down and distance is it? Where are they on the field? And then from there, depending on the team. Are you trying to guess what's happening as you're looking at

the situation? Like, oh, third and four shaded to the left. I'm watching this receiver go to the right. I think you're looking at the situation? Like, oh, third and four, it's shaded to the left. I'm watching this receiver go to the right. I think they're going to do this. I'm kind of just seeing the situation, and it brings me back to what we would have done when I was playing. Yeah. You know, looking at formations,

seeing what personnel groups are in, you can kind of see what's going to happen. You can have a guess with certain teams. But I'm really big into the situational stuff. groups are in. You can kind of see what's going to happen. You can have a guess with certain teams. But I'm really big into the situational stuff. And then obviously, depending on what team you're watching with which players they have,

I tend to watch the receivers and the DBs a lot. I actually love line play because I was always tight with the line guys. So watching line guys pick off, you know, if there's a, an Okie front or a bear front,

how are these guys going to handle it? So, you know, it depends on what team you're watching and their strengths. If they have, if, if their strengths, the offensive line,

I want to watch the offensive line. If their strengths quarterback, I'm watching the quarterback and seeing how he's getting through his progressions. If it's the receiver, I'm watching release. I'm watching top routes. I'm watching the quarterback and seeing how he's getting through his progressions. If it's the receiver, I'm watching release, I'm watching top routes, I'm watching how he's stemming guys depending on if it's man coverage or zone.

If it's zone, if they're finding the spots. So, who's your favorite quarterback to watch now that Brady's gone? Is there anybody that reminds you of him or is it just pieces of different guys? Pieces of different guys. I love watching Joe Burrow. Yeah.

He just he processes fast. He's confident with his throws and it seems when it's got to have its type situations he performs. You got to like to watch Patrick Mahomes

and especially with what he did this last year, being able to have the humility to understand what his team was. Yeah. Taking what the defense gives them, understanding that they don't have an explosive receiver on the outside. And sometimes taking those easy throws and watching quarterbacks do that being disciplined is like I like watching that because you know it takes a lot for these quarterbacks because they all just want to rip and throw but sometimes

you can't do that because defense especially with these two shells that you know Patrick Mahomes and those teams have been giving them you can't do that so you got to take what the defense gives you and that one time where they give you that look and they seeded in it, that's what I'm looking for. So you see a lot of that with,

you know, Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, uh, athletically, it's awesome to watch Lamar. And when he's really in control of a game, uh,

when he's on both levels where, you know, he's, he's playing that calculated risk type of game where, you know, is he going to take off? No, that guy jumps off. He dumps it. You know, those are playing that calculated risk type of game where, you know, is he going to take off? No, that guy jumps off. He dumps it. You know, those are fun plays to watch.

So there's a lot of good quarterback play right now. And a lot of bad quarterback play right now. A lot of bad quarterback play as well. It's been sloppy. It's been sloppy. But, you know, I'm a huge advocate for the game and I'm trying to watch and highlight the good stuff. Yeah. So I grew up as a Patriots fan.

And for the first 32 years of my life, I think the most talented quarterback we probably had was Tony Eason, who by the late 80s, we were ready to drive him out of town. Then Bledsoe came in. He was supposed to be the savior. Didn't totally happen. Did take us to a Super Bowl, but Brady takes his job. And then we went from this hodgepodge collection of dudes that were probably a C minus across the board till we get Brady. And then we watched Brady. Brady blows out his ACL. It's like, oh man, is he going to be able to come back? And then he goes

to this second level in the 2010s, which you were part of. How many Super Bowls should you have won when you were there? You went three. What was the right number? Because I would say the over-under might have been three and a half. There was weirdly some bad luck with injuries and stuff. On the other hand, the Butler play, the fact that coming back from 28 to three,

those are pretty, I don't want to say fluky wins, but unusual wins. So maybe three is the right number. What would you say? Yeah, I tell people all the time, some of the best teams I played on, we didn't win the Super Bowl. 15 after we won 14.

I mean, we started out 10 and 0. Week nine, Deion Lewis tears an ACL. Week 10, Nate Solder tears a pec. Week 11, I break a foot. And it kind of stumbled, and you stumbled at the end of that season. But we were so good that year. And then we go to the playoffs, and we lose to Denver in Denver. To leave Hurts' hamstring, remember?

Yeah, that was a barely loss, by the way. A barely loss. And we weren't even where we should have been, but that was a good one. I mean, three, three and a half, maybe four. But that's the game. The ball's got to bounce a certain way. You got to be healthy.

The healthiest team usually is a team that wins that I've always noticed. And then in, in 17 or in, what was it in, in 13, you know, we lost an AFC championship to Denver again.

We were kind of banged up. I don't think Gronk was there, you know, so it was one of the, it's one of those things where you, you gotta be lucky enough to have the whole health of the team and playing your best football at the end of the year, which, you know, the teams that we ended up winning it with were, to have the whole health of the team and playing your best football at the end of the year,

which, you know, the teams that we ended up winning it with were, and we were healthy. And those times we lost in those AFC championships on the road, you know, we didn't really have our firepower because we were banged up or something. But, you know, I think we got the perfect amount. You know, you can never

want more, you always want more but you can never say you deserved more because it's tough to win in this league Was there a playoff game you felt like you guys stole? Because I can think of three

That Baltimore, we were down 14 points That was the first one I was going to think. Yeah. It felt like, I hate saying Baltimore was better, but I actually think Baltimore was like slightly better. And the patch is out, thought them out.

They, they, they came up with these weird strategy things and just kind of like took the game from them. I'm not positive the paths are better. Yeah, it was, it was one of those things where we weren't playing our best at the end.

It goes to that point of, you know, I didn't play the last three weeks of the season. I was dealing with some head stuff. Yeah. We were kind of trying to find our way still. And then that was kind of a game for us to kind of find where we were back at. And we just so happened to sneak away and pull that one off I would say

that 2012 Ravens game where Sterling Moore knocked it out and they missed the field goal to tie it not win it tie it we stole that one Grok was banged up

yeah that was almost stole the Super Bowl though it. We stole that one. Gronk was banged up. Yeah, that was... We almost stole the Super Bowl, though. Yeah. We were one bounce away. And then probably that 14 Super Bowl. I mean, Malcolm making that play. Yeah, we studied that play and we knew

that play was going to come if they came into that certain situation, but to go out and actually execute it like he did, that's like, that was a hell of a play. So that's football. And Belichick not calling the timeout, which was not covered in the Apple documentary, the greatest coaching decision of all time.

Just not mentioned, just skipped over. There's been a lot of that. Yeah. Weird one. Have you been watching it? Cause you were interviewed for it. Yeah. I've watched, been a lot of that. Yeah. Weird one. Have you been watching it? Because you were interviewed for it. Yeah, I've watched some of it.

I've watched some of it. I was super disappointed because it felt like they were steering it toward the scandal stuff and the drama and the tension. And they kind of lost the grasp of what made the team great. The Baltimore game is not even in it. And to me, that's like the two defining home games of the entire Brady era are the snow game in 2001 and the Baltimore game.

That was like, I feel like the crowd stole that game. I feel like the infrastructure of the team stole that game. And that's like, that's how you have a dynasty when you win games like that. That and the KC game in KC in 2018, same thing. And to me, that's the dynasty when you're starting to win weird games like that. Yeah, it's definitely been a little clickbaity with what they've been showing. It is what it is.

I don't want to get too far into it I think they're trying to paint the picture a little weird for Bill I don't necessarily agree with everything a little weird I got people on both sides here so you got to keep it semi-political yeah I know but they I mean

I thought the first three they skipped over the second and third Super Bowls which was like the Pats went 21 straight they're 34 and 4 over a Super Bowls, which was like the Pats went 21 straight. They're 34 and four over a two year span. Like that's like the, that's where you build the spine and the vertebrae of the dynasty. And Belichick,

the coaching job he's doing for that four year stretch is the greatest we've ever seen in the history of the league. And then you go to the second stretch when Brady goes up a level, but in a lot of ways, Belichick did too with some of the ways he thought about set. The stuff that was most disappointing to me that wasn't in there was the way he thought out of the box with playing Troy Brown at D-back, playing you at D-back. Yeah. And just like, hey, we have these guys.

How do we patch together the best way to win for this season versus having a system, right? Without a doubt. I recently just watched that NFL Films coverage of our 2018 Super Bowl against the Rams. I'm doing Matthew Slater on games with names coming up this week. Yeah. Just to kind of do some research and try to live in it again. They're talking like Belichick's the greatest thing ever. I can specifically remember Bill talking about the media to the team once

and predicting this situation of look, fellas, there's going to be a day where the media wants me dead and I'm not the good. It's crazy that Bill used to say stuff like that for keys to games, you know, to what he's going to become.

And it always seemed like whatever he said was true. And it turned out when we watched the game, like I remember specifically when we were doing terrible on a kickoff return when one year, I think it was like in 18 or 17, maybe 19. And Bill took over the whole kickoff return meeting and went player for player and told every single guy what to do on his assignment. That week, we returned a touchdown for kickoff.

He said, we need a big play in the kicking game. It was against theams when we went out to sofi gunner had that touchdown he specifically went over with every single player you are going to hairpin you are going to go most dangerous man to this guy like called out the play and and the coaching point to every single guy yeah and we went out and house to punt or a house to kick and you know there's a lot of that stuff that he used to do like that where guys would, we'd be second guessing them. Like what the hell? Like when we cut Logan Mankins, what the fuck? Or sorry. Yeah, no, we can swear on this. Okay. I mean, like everyone was like, what are we doing? We ended up winning

the Superbowl that year. So, you know, he, he's definitely the best football coach I ever played for. And by far, you know, so it's been fun, funny to watch this whole, uh, documentary about this. Well, you know, I mean, there's so many things that missed, but one of the things was like when he, when he cut Laura Malloy heading into the second Superbowl season, and this is right after, you know, blood. So blood,

so gets hurt, doesn't get his job back. And it's like, Brady's the guy he, there was a cutthroat way that he did business. And it was always like, it's best for the team, best for the team,

best for the team. The most interesting thing about that to me is that the guy still bought into it. Even though everybody in the locker room were like, yeah, I could be next. Somehow that led to everybody still playing hard and playing together. And I never understood how he juggled that line where everybody in the locker room knew, oh, that guy would cut me in five seconds if it helped the team. Well, I always explain it like this. Bill was Congress. And, you know, the guys in the locker room, the flag carrier,

and the guy who was enforcing the law, Tom Brady, was the guy who was out there enforcing the law. And because of the rules that were in place and how the guys that were leaders in the team, you know, enforced them, that's what made the whole thing together. And that's what made it kind of go. So, you know, I think the combination of Bill being what Bill was and Tom being who Tom Brady is, it always made everyone feel like we had a shot to win no matter what. I mean, do you have to like your football coach? I'm going to say no.

I don't think anyone's ever liked their football coach until like five years ago. I mean, football has never been easy. It's been the hardest. Isn't football coach supposed to yell at people and hold them accountable and get mad at them when they do something wrong? I thought that was the job.

Yeah, you know, but it's changed. Times have changed. And I can specifically remember in 17, we lose that Super Bowl. I tore my ACL. I wasn't there. The Eagles fans love to forget that part, by the way. That you didn't play in the Super Bowl.

It's just like a tiny asterisk. But because with the whole camp of Philadelphia, oh, we have so much fun winning this, that. There was guys rumbling in the locker room. And it was our literally third Super Bowl in how many years that we went to. I wrote up on this whiteboard that we all used to walk by every morning because people were talking.

I'm like, winning is fun. That's the only fun I really want to have. I want to win. No one really cares. The work that you have to put in for the preparation process to go out and put yourself in the best situation to win is not always fun.

Honestly, it sucks and it hurts. It's emotionally draining, physically draining. We used to practice so hard but that's what made our run so good. And I guarantee you, you look at the Kansas City Chiefs. I've heard that, you know, Andy Reid and those boys, they practice hard. They take practice very hard.

And it's not always the funnest. I mean, it's different and it's collaborative. And he's an offensive guy. And they like to put in a couple plays here and there. But I've heard it's a hard camp. i heard it's a hard place to play you know and then you know it just we get a bad rap for everything so you and i met i'm gonna say it was it was the year you were gonna be it was the year you're a free agent we met during the off season yeah and you're at a dinner with a bunch of people and i i we had a mutual friend there, a friend, Will. And I ended up talking

to him for a while. And at that point, you're deciding, do I leave? Should I stay? And you started talking to me about Brady. I ended up writing something about it because you were so passionate about Brady at the time. I was like, this guy, I actually think he's smart enough not to leave. He might be offered more money somewhere else, but I think he understands there's something truly special going on here. I think the team was Jacksonville, right? They were going to offer you more. Or the Niners.

They were going to offer you more to leave, and you ended up staying. I'm guessing you don't regret that. I don't. This is a business. I was a younger football player at the time. Sometimes you have to swallow pride and you have to look outside the box and think outside the box. Do you want to go make a million dollars more somewhere where they're going to have a new coaching staff in a year or two? Or do you want to be part of something special? And, you know, with Boston and being in New England, you know, with what we were doing at that time,

you could make that money off the field, you know? So I was thinking like that. And did I really want to go into a situation with, you know, a quarterback that didn't know me and I was just getting, you know know a relationship with Tom and getting to earn some reps with him you know Welker Lee left we had Amendola but you know I knew specifically how hard it was to gain his trust so I banked on you know like if I go there you know it'll give me my best opportunity to succeed. Yeah. Cause you told me that night and I mentioned this and something I wrote for ESPN because you were like, Tom's going to play until his mid forties. And I think that was the first time when I wrote about it, I think it was the first time

anyone had put that out there and people like, that's crazy. No quarterback had played past like 39 at a successful thing, but you were like adamant about it. You were like, you don't understand the way this dude treats his body, how he lives his day. His entire life is about football. Every decision he makes is for his body. Like this guy's going to keep going as long as he wants. And you were like pretty, pretty adamant about it. And you were right. Well, you used to say it all the time. And when we would be together in the off season, you know, in LA or wherever we were training, we'd go to Montana. And, you know, he used to talk about it. I'm playing until I'm 45, you know, and I've told the story before,

you know, I think it was in 14. He had the Arizona address on his whiteboard in his gym at his house. And I go, you know, and we both grew up in the Bay Area. So I knew how close to home Joe Montana was to Tom. I wanted to be, I wanted to help Tom pass Joe. You know, I was like, Tom, we're going to get four here. You're going to pass Joe. We're going to do it. And he looked me dead in the eyes with his little,

he got a death stare. And he said, I'm not going for Montana. I'm going for Jordan. And if you hear after 18, I go, Jordan, Jordan, you got him. You know what I mean? And it was just one of those things where whatever he said that he wanted to accomplish, this man actually would hone down,

focus up, and do everything in his possibility to make that happen. And more than not, it happened. Pass Jordan. Yeah. Pass Jordan. He got the seventh one in Tampa. I know. He passed him.

So you're out there, the 28-3 game, coming back. And at some point, Brady locks in and he just becomes, I don't know, like a Jedi. I don't know what's going on. But it's just, at some point, everyone realizes that the Patriots are going to win. And Mahomes has a little bit of this too. People kept talking about the word inevitability. When these guys hit this point, when they're so great, it feels inevitable and the game's not over, but you're like, I know where this is going.

It's like, I know they're getting this two point. When did you know in the field that something was happening? I would say probably after the Trey Flowers sack or one of those holding calls when we were down, we were climbing. When we were climbing back and we scored those two touchdowns and then we had, was it a Trey Flowers sack? The high tower sack fumble, whatever.

Sack fumble, but then Flowers had a holding call as well that knocked him out of field goal range. And they had to punt. Once they punt there, I was like, we're going to win this game. Which the only thing that was making me think that it was going to be tough is that we already executed a two-point play.

And that week of practice, we put in like three or four two-point plays. We knew that it could potentially come down to that. So thank God we actually prepared for that situation. And we were able to execute two-point plays because those aren't easy. That's what people don't realize. There's less space.

There's, you know, that two-point play is a lot tougher than what people think. But it was after that holding call, that sack fumble, those huge defensive plays when I felt like it was almost like that tiger effect on the back nine of a Masters. Catching somebody. Down one or two strokes. Those guys are shitting their pants.

Right. And that's when he's performing at his best. And that's what happened. And you saw how Tom was distributing the football to everyone. Malcolm Mitchell, rookie. Chris Hogan, Danny Amendola, James White out of the backfield for like 15 catches. You know, having that discipline to take what the defense is giving you

and not having that clock where you're like, oh, I got to make something happen. Like that's the pro quarterback play, you know? And that's what he was doing. And that's what he did in the best moments. Well, and then the Belichick piece of it where he thinks Atlanta is going to score points. This was also not in the documentary.

So let's put in a bunch of two-point plays because we might need them. We might need them for overtime. Who the fuck knows? Without a doubt. The Pats, I think they got three two-point plays in that game. Is that possible? Two.

Two plus, there was another one. I want to say there was three. There was one that Danny... Yeah. That quick out. It was a quick screen. It was a quick screen where we had to block the two most dangerous. And then there was the,

the fake James White. That was like Kevin Falk. You know, we all see that where if it's blitz zero, we got a blitz zero beater. If they're light in the box, we do the fake. And then we did the fake.

We, and we've done that fake so many times. In the Seattle game, you ran that route that you used to run a bunch of times where you would cut in and do the 180 spin move to the outside. Yeah. And then you ran it back.

I think you did it twice in the same game. We missed it. We missed it the first time and then Danny scored on a little seam in the red area. And then we came back to it. We actually put that play in pregame because we felt like we were going to get a little more man coverage in the red area than we anticipated.

So it was called spin or X return spin. So you have the return by the single guy and then you have Amendola on the spin, which if that safety comes down and they try to take that return route, you dink over right over the head. It's Amendola. And then you have an in cut on the backside. So we put that in. We missed it the first time. And then the second time we got it, it was awesome. It was awesome.

We knew because they had, you know, with that whole Seattle six program, they had long, lanky corners and we were shifty receivers. Right. And we knew that we could get them at the line of scrimmage. You got to get those kinds of guys move in. Don't let them get on you. Right. Get a move in. You can win.

So, and we tried to play to our players strengths and it came out. We executed that bad boy. Yeah. My son started playing football a couple of years. He was playing receiver and I was like, you should go watch Edelman. Watch some of the footwork stuff he does. He's like, why? Because he's a white guy? And I'm like,

no, because of the footwork. But one of the plays we were fascinated by was that spin, that move we just talked about, the return of the 180, which is really hard to do if you actually are just trying to do it in the backyard like it's basically it's almost like the one the one coaching point that you always have to get

is if you're doing it to your right and you're coming out back to your left that top foot has to that toe has to point back to the quarterback. Oh, interesting. It allows you to transfer your weight. A lot of guys will slip on that because they try to cut without that foot and you slip. So if you can get the guy moving like an under route and you put that top foot and you point that foot to the quarterback,

you have to point it to the quarterback. It gives you your angle to get out. That move's unstoppable. The two plays that are unstoppable are that play if somebody does it correctly and it's wide open on the side that you do it to. Because there's just no way for the D-back to react in time. And then the weird,

Casey started it with Tyreek and now Miami does it, where he's in quick motion and then just sprints out and they just throw him like the two yard. Cause there's just no way nobody's fast enough to realize in real time. Oh shit. Tyreek is now in full motion. So now Casey runs that. I think they ran that with, uh, with rice a couple of times and you know, it still works, but, um, yeah. Um, Tyreek, it's the most unstoppable, but it seems like that's been one of the trends this decade is this quick motion stuff, people moving, people moving fast.

And I don't know how you stop it. It's very hard. The teams that always had the best shot of stopping it were the teams that were physical with it and that would probably just try to hold you. Right. Because what you're doing is you're making the defense communicate when you're,

you're coming to a stack or a bunch and when they're communicating and you get a quick snap and you go, you're gone. Especially with a guy like Tyreek Hill, who is got, you know, world-class speed. You know,

those, those, those plays are really hard to stop. Very hard to stop. Very hard to stop. You got to get physical with them. That's the only way. Who has the best footwork for you now in the league? What receiver?

I'm really impressed with Justin Jefferson because of his length and his ability to get in and out of breaks Cooper Cupps very smooth and he's always on balance you never see him fall on a route or anything and he knows that guys that cut off the right feet

they don't rush their routes I used to rush my route sometimes and it messed me up but these guys they're all pretty dang good at it with the information that they, they have now to be able to train it. I think the receiver position in general is just so much further ahead than when I was, you know, coming into league. Jamar Chase I mean he's his footwork's unreal and he's really explosive he's got real real strong lower end so he can power through things

but he's also fast enough to outrun guys I mean you're getting total package with a lot of these receivers the receiver play right now is pretty pretty fun to watch well when you came in the league, what draft were you? Were you nine or 10? 2009. So that was basically the last year. That was the Steelers, Ravens, the vicious playoff game when four guys got knocked out.

They started shifting the rules. And then I'm going to say 2012 range, they really started shifting it. And it took, I don't know, they really started shifting it. And it took, I don't know, it took about a decade. But one of the things that changed was the wide receiver over the middle, just not getting annihilated by the safety. And that was happening in real time as you were playing. When did you start to feel like actually, you probably never felt safe going over the middle,

but when did you feel like it was a tiny bit safer? It's funny that you say that. I mean, I what after each season i'd always watch every single play that i that i would play in and it was probably 15 or 16 where i was i sat and watched and i had probably 35 catches over the middle where like earlier in my career i'd be decapitated. I'd probably been out. I probably wouldn't have had the catch. So probably in that span of window from 2012, I was still getting lit up by Ed Reed, Brian Dawkins, and all these guys. And then by the time it shifted, it was probably like 15, 16. I think they got into the farm systems with all these seven-on-seven camps.

Yeah. And the DBs, instead of going for the big hits, were going for the interceptions. And the game kind of changed just because, you know, you remember when, who was the safety with the Niners? He was a hard hitter.

He was getting fined a bunch. I used to train with him too. He's going to get mad at me. I'm blanking. No, I know who you're talking about, but I'm blanking. Goldston. Yep.

You know, like, where there were these hard hitting safeties, they were getting fined so much where it's almost where like

it was killing the defenses where they were picking up these penalties so those types of guys were you know not getting picked up as much and the safety positions really changed they're really a hybrid type guys when i first got in the league the safeties were you know 235 pounds you know now they're about 205 you know 210 and they can run and they can they're trying to get these guys to be able to cover the tight ends. They got to have some ability to cover in space.

That's completely changed from when I first got in the league. It's more of a space game, and we're seeing that in all sports. You look at basketball with the three-pointer. It spreads the game out, and you can be a smaller guy. In football, it's more of a space game. They're widening everything out, and they're making big guys play in space. It's really defeating the guys. It's pendulums.

It'll probably go back to a running game here soon just because the linebackers and the safeties are getting so small in the box where you can play your 12 personnel group. And you can go block them. And if they're playing these money situations where they're bringing in another DB, or if they're not, they have a linebacker, you can still block them with the receiver.

It's crazy. Denver, there's one safety left that still does the hits. Eddie Jackson, who got suspended multiple times and then at one point got suspended for like four games but he was the last guy trying to keep the uh old era alive it's you know it's tough because you know i grew up watching ronnie lott and that was that's why you know my favorite play of my career was the third and 14 against seattle when you know i mean that was like what when you were a kid and you were catching a football on The third and 14 against Seattle when Cam chance lit me up. You know what I mean?

That was like when you were a kid and you were catching a football on the street with your dad or with your friends. I remember my dad specifically said, you better be able to make that catch. You're going to get hit anyways. You know what I mean? And that's what it was. It's kind of, I mean, there's still some violent hits. Don't get me wrong. Guys are really fast and big and strong now

still, but it's just changed. It's changed. See, I think that was your greatest catch because everyone else would say the Falcons catching the ball that got deflected in the air, but I think eating the third and 14 camp chancellor hit, but then going like seven more yards

and I don't know, you're probably seeing stars for at least a second or two on that one, right? I really wasn't, you know, I, I, I really wasn't, I've been,

I've, I've been hit where I saw stars on that specific one. I wasn't because I took the punt return from that, that series. I took a hit pointer on the punt return. Oh, interesting. If you have a hip pointer, like in between plays

without the adrenaline, your whole hip singes up and you're just sitting there and it's pulling, it's pulling and then you muster up energy during the play where you can go.

So if you see at the end of that play, I try to get up and my hip singes and I grab my hip. Right. Was it a hard hit? Yeah, it was a hard hit.

But I braced for it. It was late over the middle. So I anticipated that hit because they had the middle field closed with Cam. And you're going to run a 22-yard in cut. You usually get hit on that number yeah away from that safety but you know tom stepped up and it was you knew it was going to be a big bang bang bang throw because by that time i was in at the hash so if you see well you and welkies do the same thing if if you knew you're going to take the hit you would catch it and then you would go to the ground underneath the hit so you wouldn't

take the hit because you're gonna get tack tackled anyway. So you try to figure out immediately self-preservation. One of the best that was Dion Branch. Remember Dion? Oh yeah. He knew how to get down. He, you know, and I remember him coming back to the Patriots when I was,

when you're younger football player, you're young, dumb, full of cum, piss and vinegar. You're trying to go for the extra one yard. Yeah. You end up spraining the ankle because

you're getting hit by four other guys. Dion said, dude, you got to get down. You got to get down. You got to have calculated risk. You always watched Dion. He was always in control. Catch the ball. See two guys slide under him. Welk did it well too.

I've seen Welker get hit a couple times where I was putting my chin strap on thinking he was out. And that dude was tough. He was able to muster through. Branch, that cost us the Super Bowl in 06. They traded him. They couldn't figure out the contract,

traded him for a first round pick and should have beaten the Colts that year. So that every time I hear his name, my mind goes to that. It was like one of the rare, you know, Belichick made some mistakes over the years. That was a good one. That was a good mistake to bring up

if you're going to bring the mistakes up. Because, you know, he tried to cheat without having a number one receiver and it just wasn't going to work. Who did he get with that first round pick? He traded him for, I think he ended up spinning that for... He did

the Belichick thing where he traded backwards and got more stuff. The other time he did it was with Seymour, which led to May. I remember that. That was a little more defensible. That was a crazy one. Wait, can we do three minutes on Gronk? I know you're working with him now.

I love seeing the old Pats on Fox, but I get really mad when people even try to have a Gronk versus Kelsey combo. Because to me, Gronk is unequivocally the best tight end of all time. I don't say that as

a Patriots fan. I just say that as it's common sense because he's doing all the receiver stuff and maybe his career wasn't as long as Kelsey's was, but he was also the best blocking tight end in the league by far the entire time he was Gronk. And the Kelsey piece of it, I think Kelsey's amazing. He's a first ballot, whatever. He's one of the best clutch receivers I can remember. But to me, he's more of a receiver than a tight end. And I think that part gets lost with the Gronk versus Kelsey thing. So where do you stand on those two

against each other? Yeah, I'm kind of in that same category. The tight end position's changed. The tight end position now are big H's. These guys that they run great routes. They're great out of the backfield. the tight end position now, you know, our big, big H's, these guys that, you know, they run great routes. They're great in, out of the backfield. You can't argue with Kelsey's savviness,

route running ability, longevity. I mean, it's, it's ridiculously impressive to see how he's been able to take care of his body and perform at the highest level. And he's never hurt. Like this year, he's probably a little banged up earlier, but they're at the point now in their little dynasty

where you're not really playing for the regular season. You're trying to hold everything, getting ready for January. That's something we used to hear all the time. He used to tell me, he used to tell Gronk, you know, you get banged up. You know, I go up to Tom, I'm trying to get out there, you know, and he'd come, hey, babe, I just need you in January. I just need you in January. You know, and that's what it is.

When you see Gronk, when I saw Gronk play, man, it was a force when he was playing it. You know, when he was in his prime, it literally looked like a high school football player playing against second graders. And this is a national football league. I remember guys just bouncing off them. And when you ran next to Gronk, when he had the football in his hands, he sounded,

you could hear his feet and you could hear his arm thing and you could hear him giggling and guys literally just trying to tattoo him and bouncing off I mean it was a pure dominance when he was in there you know and you know it's they're both unbelievable

but for like the true tight end guy who goes in blocks, I mean, Gronk used to block the nine technique. Gronk, his rookie year broke Vandenbosch's neck, blocking him. And when Vandenbosch was Vandenbosch, like I remember that to this day, we were getting on Gronk all week. This guy's going to eat your lunch. And he had to kind of motivate Gronk with that kind of stuff.

Billy O would get in on me. You can't let this guy beat us. And he goes in and hits this guy. I mean, he was just a monster. An absolute monster. Do you feel like he got officiated differently? Huh? Do you feel like he got officiated differently?

Yeah. You know, after a while, if you look at the Panther, there's this route called the Panther route where you spread everybody out. You got the in-cuts and the end lines. You got the outs. And then you have the guy at the three who goes in and you

get the matchup against the middle linebacker and you get physical and you come out of it. You see a lot of tight ends do it now. You know, Gronk would just go in, get big and physical and a lot of... For a, he would get away with it. And then guys would be flopping and stuff. And they'd call a flag on him.

He definitely got officiated a little differently, I think. But Kelsey, it's pretty crazy, man. He's still going. He's still going. Yeah, I think about him more as like with the great receivers right they're best like what he does for the chiefs isn't really much different than what you were doing for the pats during the during the last three super bowls and the eagles one that you know that we lost but that that whole stretch of the seasons you were like the big

ticket oh it's third and eight third and whatever, you were probably going to be involved in the play. It was you or Gronk. And for them, it's Kelsey every time. You just kind of know he's getting the ball, but I almost think of him like a six foot six right off the line, semi slot receiver, more than like a tight end.

I know he blocks people, but... He blocks... Yeah, it's... You know, like I said I'm a Gronk guy yeah team Gronk team Gronk nothing but respect for Kelsey and what he's

done I think he's a flat out stud like I said savvy route running but when it came down to like nitty gritty like we used to run too grunk you know i mean that was like a lot of times you run away from the tight end

yeah you know we used we used to run too grunk you know so did you take the mahomes goat stuff personally at all when that started after this last super bowl when the brady versus mahomes became an argument or you just think that's part of the sports discourse? That's part of sports. I mean, they're playing really good football. You know, but we got to,

they haven't really hit a real adverse situation yet. You know, Tom did it with three different types of teams. You know, now he, you know, Mahomes these last couple of years lost,

you know, Tyreek Hill and everything, but he still has a safety blanket in, you know, Kelsey. We got to see how it goes when Kelsey leaves and when Kelsey retires, because he's going to outplay a lot of, a lot of these guys like Tom did.

I think there's so much to the story that's unwritten. It's too early to say, but if he keeps his play up, he's putting himself in a good situation to go out there and do some fire with this whole thing, but it's a little

too early for me. This will be the last thing. The Pats, they have the third pick in the draft. There's three quarterbacks. They're probably getting who falls third, which I think is going to be Drake May, which I'm actually kind of excited about because I think he's a tank.

If you were helping somebody scout quarterbacks, especially at the high level, because it's basically 50-50. It might even be 45-55 hitting on a top five pick with a quarterback. It's actually probably more likely the guy's not going to work out than it is that he will. For every CJ Stroud, there's two guys that don't work out. It's starting to feel like, what would you look for what what are teams doing wrong that they can't do this or do you feel like it's really more situation than anything and there's no way to

predict it i think it's situation ecosystem i think it's i think it's uh i would always go into the scouts and i would say like let me I want to sit and look at the guy in his eyes. Send me out. Like when I was playing, send me out and I want to sit and look at a guy in his eyes. I want to talk football with them. You know, it's, it's one of those things. Can they command a huddle?

Do they have the leadership skills? Cause every guy can make the throw, but can you make the throw when there's a six foot six defensive end down your throat? Like that's the kind of stuff you look for. Uh, you know, so it, I,

it's honestly probably the hardest thing to evaluate and that's why I'm not a scout. So I'm with you to me and I've been saying this forever. To me, it's a charisma leadership position as much as anything else. And so I'm really into this draft because I feel like if you miss the pick, it sets you back three years. If you hit the pick, you're set for 15, right? So there's real stakes. So I'm reading all the Drake May stuff and trying to learn more about him and there's stuff in there like, oh, he got this NIL commercial, but he insisted his offensive lineman, they all split it five ways instead of him just getting the money because he wanted to get his

offensive lineman paid. And I'm like, oh, that's a good one. All right, put that in the plus box. The fact that his coach and the team around him was like, this guy's a leader, this guy's a leader, and he's changed the culture at North Carolina. I'm like, all right, that sounds good. That's a positive. I don't want to overrate it, but it is the kind of things you want to hear when you hear this guy's going to be the caretaker of your franchise for 15 to 20 years, potentially. He has to be a culture guy. There's no other way around it. No other way around it. when you look at cj stroud and his best game in college it was against georgia remember yeah we're when it was nut cutting time he was making big plays that's what you like you watch brady when he was in college in the orange

bull you know he got his team back like he still wasn't Tom Brady of what he became, but there's always that clutch gene or that one thing where when it's the worst possible situation, what does that player do? That's kind of what you got to look for. And will the guys believe in him? And you have all these guys throughout different sizes. If you got guys that can do that, if you got guys that can do that, they're going guys believe in them and you have all these guys if you got guys that can do that

if you got guys that can do that they're gonna believe in them because they're gonna see it in practice you know and that's where you gain the confidence of your teammates and that's why you know Tom was always practicing so hard because he felt like he had to earn his teammates

trust every time he went out on the field and he was still, you know, when I got there he already had three Super Bowls, you know, but he practiced so hard because he really cared about being a great teammate and he wanted to prove everyone that he was who he was

and he, guys that are, that continually stay hungry, that don't get satisfied those are the kind of guys you want to play with that continually stay hungry, that don't get satisfied. Those are the kind of guys you want to play with. Well, one of the things I always loved hearing about you is like, especially as you got in with Tom and you're like, where are we going? You know, it's like March, it's April.

It's like, oh, you're going to Mexico or the Bahamas for 10 days? I'll go too. And we can throw every day. You just were like, you were just attached to him. Cause for two reasons, one, it was good for you because it made you better and it deepened the connection, but also like, it's going to help you as a player. So I got to know that shit. Not even that, you know, with, with that time, I always made myself available to him because you know, when you're a receiver, you're dependent on someone.

Yeah. Especially the quarterback. So, the more time you spend with the quarterback, the more time you guys learn each other. And when we go out

and run routes in the off seasons, you know, I was learning what he wanted, but he was also learning my body mechanics. He was learning when I would drop my weight,

how I got in and out of breaks. He was learning, you know, my strengths, my weaknesses. We were learning that. We of breaks. He was learning, you know, my strengths, my weaknesses. We were learning that. We were learning each other, you know, and, you know, that's, that's what you have to do if you want to try to get on a page with someone.

And I, not only was I learning him, I was getting a master class in how to be a professional. Right. You know, how to, how to be a professional football player, how in the off season, you know, when I was younger, you go out, get hammered and you get so out of shape your first couple of weeks after the

season, it takes you three weeks to get back into shape. You never saw that with Tom Brady. When I started hanging out with him, it was like, all right, we work out. Now you go,

we eat a healthy dinner or healthy lunch lunch. And then you bring up almonds. And then after that, now it's family time. You know, how do you schedule out your life? How do you try to get gains out of your life with the practice that you put in in the off season? Because you're never the same. You're either getting better or you're getting worse. That's just what football is. And getting to be a fly on the wall and having Tom allow me to

train with him in the off season, it taught me so much on how to take care of my body, how to recover my body, how to be a good family man, how to compartmentalize certain things, not letting things from the work field go into your home. I learned so much from him as a professional, you know, and it, you know, helped me get to where I was at. Well, now you're one of the great playoff receivers of all time. Give me 10 seconds on Mayo. Yes or maybe?

Yes. I mean, it ultimately comes down to the quarterback they draft. I mean, that's where his fate will probably be, I think, right? Isn't that how it goes in the National Football League? Fortunately, that's how it goes. That's how it goes. He's an unbelievably smart guy. I remember

specifically when I was playing defense, I would look at Mayo just to get... I knew what I was doing. I just wanted to hear it from Mayo because you knew Mayo knew everything. Oh, interesting. He's that type of guy. He was always a great locker room guy. He's very personable with guys. So that'll

be something probably a little more new than what they're accustomed to there. I'm really excited for Mayo and his opportunity that he's going to have. I think he's going to do well. I really do. I think the guys are going to accept him. He's

someone that's done it. He's someone that's done it at a very high level. He got hurt at his tail end, but Gerard Mayo was one hell of a linebacker. Belichick used to love Mayo. We used to call him Gerard Belichick for a reason because that dude knew everything about football, and he was sideline, sideline fast. He could make all calls.

He could handle the pressure. He's just a guy that can handle things. I'm so excited for Gerard. The podcast is called Games with Names. I'll make an appearance on there at some point. Am I invited? Yeah, whenever. What game would you do? You want basketball or

football? Whatever game you want to do. All right. I'll think about it. I'll marinate on it. There's a lot of games that I've enjoyed over the years. All right. Good to see you. Julian Edelman, thank you. Great to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shilka Padia and Julian Edelman. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing. As always, don't forget everything on youtube.com slash Bill Simmons if you want clips and videos from this podcast and from the rewatchables. And I'll see you on Thursday. On the wayside On the first side of the river

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